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Welcome to The Wikipedia Adventure![edit]

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Hi Rama! We're so happy you wanted to play to learn, as a friendly and fun way to get into our community and mission. I think these links might be helpful to you as you get started.

-- 20:51, Wednesday, August 3, 2016 (UTC)

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Demerliac requests[edit]

Hi Rama, I have just uploaded French corvette Jalouse (1794). There are five privateers of interest, three of which she captured.

Naiade - operating March 1797
Jason - captured February 1799
Fantasie - captured November 1799
Inattendu - captured April 1800
Victoire - operating early 1801

You had mentioned Wikipedia having the best info re Albion. We have the advantage of being able to compare and contrast, particularly from opposing sides of an engagement (see Jalouse vs. Tisiphone for example. Again, thanks for your efforts. Acad Ronin (talk) 02:47, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Very interesting ship, I'll try to do something about these privateers this evening. Might have a look at this Plucket character, I think this is not the first time I head of him, he might warrant an article. Cheers! Rama (talk) 07:04, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
I just can't stand Gallois. His style, flourishes, exaggerations, and constant calls to hatred give me a headache. Rama (talk) 09:47, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Nice work on Plucket. It is good to have successful Frenchmen of the era on the English wikipedia. There is a French article, and I assume you have checked if it has anything else. I agree with you re Gallois. His style is painful to read (and try to make sense of in English), and he is sloppy with his chronology. James has some of the same nationalistic tone, but he isn't as over-the-top flamboyant, and he is careful on chronology and detail. Marshall is much calmer. Of course, we are talking about the the beginings of the era of nationalism, so it is not surprising that the authors we read are showing it (often more so than the men they write about). Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 11:37, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Naïade (or archaic spelling Nayade): I only have a naval corvette
  • Jason: Privateer from Dunkirk, commissioned in 1797 under Pierre-François Sagot with 14 guns and 51 men. Second cruise in 1798 under J-J Seille, and last one in early 1799 under Charles-Adrien Parquet, concluding with her captured by Jalouse. (no 1716, p 217 of 1792-1799)
  • Fantasie: 14-gun privateer, home port and captain not known, 60 men. (no 3099, p 323)
  • Inattendu: Small privateer with 25 men and 2 guns. (unnumbered, p.337 of 1800-1815)
  • Victoire: I have several that could fit the dates; the most likely candidate in my opinion would be a privateer from Dunkirk under Ensign Jean-Louis Fromentin, a 14-gun, 45-ton ship with 60 men (no 1553). The others look smaller and I would not venture to Norway on ships that look more designed for coastal service than for long cruises. I'll try to see if I can cross that with information from my sources on privateers and get a better lead.
Cheers! Rama (talk) 17:28, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Excellent results. I think you are right on 'Naïade. We have a WP article on her that I believe I wrote, and she is in the same theatre, and of the same force, as Jalouse. I get a sense that during the Republic, the line between privateers and naval vessels became blurred The info on Jason is super. As far as Fantasie and Inattendu are concerned, I suspect that Demerliac's source is the info in the London Gazette. Even so, I have included the Demerliac references as guideposts to future researchers as to available sources. Your assessment of Victoire makes sense. What is the 45 tons, displacement or "of load"? Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 18:11, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, of load ("tonneaux").
Yes, the Republic itself commissioned privateers, which is the strict sense of "corsaire de la République": not only privateers during the Republic, but privateers whose shipowner was the Republic. Different rules than naval ships, but you did get quite a lot of back and fro for lower rank officers between these and ships of the Navy proper. Might warrant an article of its own, now that I think of it. Cheers! Rama (talk) 21:07, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Demerliac requests[edit]

Hi Rama, I have just put up HMS Swallow (1795). There are a number of French privateers, but all are small and in the Caribbean so it's not clear that Demerliac will have much additional info. Still. Also, Swallow became a letter of marque whaler and captured two French whalers in 1804 - there may be something in the French records on that. In any case, thanks for the help. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:41, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

  • Molinette : Privateer commissioned in January 1797 in Saint-Domingue with 105 men and 10 guns. (no 2670 p 292)
  • Port de Paix : privateer commissioned in February 1797 in Saint-Domingue with 17 men and 2 guns. (no 2680 p 293)
  • Général Toussaint Lourverture : privateer commissioned in February 1797 in Saint-Domingue with 50 men and 8 guns. (no 2656 p 291)
  • Petite Ressource : privateer commissioned in Le Havre in late 1797. Under Jean-François Bunel with 33 men and 3 to 6 guns, 32 tons of load. (no 1951 p 235)
  • Buonaparte : privateer cutter built in Honfleur by Nicolas Loquet and commissioned in Rouen in 1798. 58 tons of load, under Degaule (hmmm...) with 45 to 50 men. Requisitioned from 4 April 1798 to 23 June 1798 with 3 officers and 25 men. (no 1959 p 235)
I'll have a look at the whalers in a moment. Cheers! Rama (talk) 21:45, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Many thanks: Surprisingly good info, given that they were in the Caribbean. Curious discrepancy between the Molinette that was commissioned and the one that was captured, as far as guns and crew are concerned. As for Degaule, probably not the former president of France, though he was quite an individual and capable of many surprises. Still, a corsaire ancestor? That would be cool. Cheers, Acad Ronin (talk) 22:46, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
I did not include it, but Demerliac does mention captured by Swallow for all these ships, except Buonaparte, at the dates you give, so these are the sames ones we are talking about. I see also that your records give a 5-man crew for Général Toussaint Lourverture, curious whether this is a typo or if she had despatched parties. Cheers! Rama (talk) 06:05, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Good that Demerliac has the same captor; helps assure that we have the same vessels, though I suspect that everybody is getting their info from the London Gazette. Same with Toussaint. I checked in Schomberg, but same five men. The London Gazette item is simply a list of vessels captured, no letter. It is possible that she ran ashore and her crew fled, only a few men staying on her. This is one of those things that would require a search of Swallow's logbooks, if they even still exist. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 11:51, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Ah ah, a funny one with your whalers!
  • Héros: built in Calcutta in 1797, 267 tons of load. Commissioned by Hyppolite de Longuemare at Le Havre in February 1803. Left Le Havre in late February bound for Walvis Bay. Captured by Swallow.(no 2862, p.331 of 1800-1815)
  • Baleine: built in the USA as Hero, 334 tons of load. Commissioned at Le Havre in December 1802 by Hottinger and Co. Departed Le Havre in late December under Reuben Baxter, bound for Walvis Bay. Captured by Swallow.(no 2845, p.330 of 1800-1815)
So Hero could refer to both Héros or Baleine. Cheers! Rama (talk) 18:45, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
I had an even lower expectation that we would find anything about the two whalers than I had about the privateers in the Caribbean, but Demerliac surprised me. I owe him at least a drink. (Actually, I owe you at least a dinner. That is something we can discuss later.) Anyway, I think we now have pretty much all that can be found on Swallow, at least without original research, in our WP article. I am tempted to try my luck on two more whalers shortly. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 23:55, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Extended confirmed protection[edit]

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Hi Rama, does Demerliac have anything about the two French naval vessels involved in the Action of 31 May 1796? There are some questions. I doubt that he would have anything more than the official records have, but there is always the hope. Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:55, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

I'll look into these hopefully this evening. Cheers! Rama (talk) 07:19, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
PS: There would be quite a few things to write on those Chaloupe-canonnières, by the way. Rama (talk) 07:20, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
I know, but I am already getting side-tracked by whalers, slavers, East Indiamen, and convict ships to Australia. Besides, Wikipedia is best when the articles bring together materials information form disparate databases and sources. :-). Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:51, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Génie: merchant tartane incorporated into the Navy in June 1796 and commissioned as a gunboat at Agde (either purchased or requisitionned). (no 948, p. 139) Roche states that she was purchased (p. 223) Everybody seems to believe that she became HMS Venom.
  • Numéro Douze: Chaloupe-cannonière no 12, commissioned in 1795. Under Captain Ganivet when destroyed (Roche, p.106) Demerliac states that she was renamed Négligente in May 1795 (no 896, p. 133), but Roche has two no 12, both wrecked near Genoa, so it is not clear wheter they were the same ship.
  • Bonne-Mère: No information, sorry
  • Vierge de Consolation: No information, sorry
  • Jean Baptiste: No information, sorry
  • St. Anne de Paix: No information, sorry
Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:41, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for this. It does add info. I would have been surprised if there had been any info on the four merchant vessels; such vessels were outside the scope of either the Roche or Demerliac books. The mis-identification of Génie's fate is a puzzle. I have established a clear provenance for HMS Venom (1794) that combines the info in Winfield and Roberts, and Winfield re commander and Caribbean with a brig under that commander's name that was already in service there in 1794. My best guess here is that Nelson or one of his commanders renamed Génie Venom and used her as a tender, of which no other information survives. (I have found other cases of tenders in the Med or in the Caribbean that exist as a sole mention. I have also found at least one case and probably two, of vessels that had careers in other theatres and news of whose existence never made it back to the Admiralty in London.) Later researchers then conflated the two Venoms. With regards to No. 12, I think Roche points to a likely solution: two No. 12s in the theatre, with the second very possibly being commissioned after the loss of the first, or simply her renaming, and then being captured in 1796. I am simply content that we have been able to gather what information is currently available, and provide a starting point and reasonable conjectures for some future researcher. Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 23:38, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
Also, do you know how I would go about creating the category:50 most remote islands in the world? I received a little book that lists and describes them and I would like to "honor" them. Acad Ronin (talk) 14:14, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
Simply create an article and add [[category:50 most remote islands in the world]] to it. This will create a red link for the category, which you can edit by adding [[category:remote places]] or something appropriate, and text if you so wish.
Incidentally, this is probably something that would amuse my friends from Wikidata, it is the sort of things that they automate. Cheers! Rama (talk) 14:31, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
I'll do that when I get home tonight. But, what do you mean by "automate"? Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:56, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
They have data on things such as islands in a computer-friendly form, so they can request the computer to give a list of the N most remote places, an from there create a map of their emplacements, graphs with their distances to the closest inhabited spots, find correlation in their seasonal hygrometry... your imagination is the limit, basically. Rama (talk) 15:04, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the help. I have created the category Remote islands, and populated it with the 50 mentioned in the book I used as a guide. I am not sure what criteria the author used, but I agree that most are pretty remote by anybody's criteria. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 00:54, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
Hi Rama, do we have anything on a Hyppolite, captured at Ile Bourbon in September 1805 by HMS Duncan? Also, a privateer Emilie captured around the same time near the Seychelles, by Duncan? I am working on a Duncan article and these two are problematic - mixed reports. Two more certain captures are Courier/Courier de Seychelles, and Cacotte. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:01, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello, sorry your message momentarily slipped of my mind. Here we are:
  • Hyppolite: nothing on her (but I have a submarineHypothalatique, I should try and find more on this one)
  • Émilie: I have an Émilie or Émilien: originally a 300-ton of load corvette-like ship built in Bayonne near 1798 or 1799 and commissioned in Bordeaux in 1799 under Captain Emit, with 16 6-pounders (pierced for 18). Upon arrival at Isle de France, recommissioned as a privateer under Étienne Bourgoin. Captured by HMS Albatros on 23 March 1801 and incorporated in the Royal Navy as HMS Trincomalee. (no 2242, p.282) Recaptured in late 1803 and recommissioned as the privateer Émilie or Émilien with 150 men and 16 6-pounders. Recaptured again, either by HMS Culloden on 25 September 1806, or on 10 January 1807 near Machilipatnam by an unknown British cruiser. Reincorporated into the RN as HMS Trincomalee, a 320-ton of load sloop with 121 and 16 6-pounders, 98'3" by 27'9" and 14'. Sold circa 1808. (no 1807 p. 327) If we can fit HMS Duncan into the equation, it would sort out quite a few lose threads.
  • Courier/Courier de Seychelles: nothing, probably a very small ship
  • Cacotte: nothing, are you sure of the name?
Cheers! Rama (talk) 18:02, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
Vessels in the Indian Ocean are always a problem.
  • Émilie: I think we are up against a popular name. I have the Emilie, of c.300 tons and described as slightly larger than Surcouf's Emilie. This Emilie is the one that Duncan captured around November 1805. He manned her as a tender and she captured Courier de Seychelles. There is also a mention of the capture of both in the London Gazette, but it gives no information about dates or anything else. Winfield has two Trincomalees. One was a vessel of obscure origins, Dutch or French, captured in 1799 and destroyed in action that same year in a notable fight. The second Trincomalee was the Emilien that Culloden captured. He describes her as having been launched at Bayonne in 1800 as Gloire, captured by Albatross, and renamed Trincomalee, sold into the mercantile trade, recaptured by the French and renamed Emilien, recaptured by Culloden two months after the privateer had returned to the Indian Ocean, taken in as HMS Emilien, and sold c. 1808. No mention in Winfield of any other contemporaneous Trincomalee. (There is a famous frigate in 1817.) Duncan doesn't seem to fit in this history. Was Bourguin's ship Gloire, Emilie, or Emilien? If I can link Gloire, Trincomalee, and Emilien through Demerliac we will have a nice story, long enough not to be called a stub. The first Trincomalee will have to be listed on a ship index page. There is just not enough about her.
  • Courier/Courier de Seychelles: The London Gazette gives her burthen 280 tons. Here I have a little more from a history of the Seychelles that I will add to the Duncan article.
  • Cacotte: That was the name in the London Gazette, and is the only info I have. Did you try Cocotte? I think that would be a likely French name easily mistranscribed.
Anyway, thanks for the efforts. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 19:30, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
Hi Rama, I have just completed an article on HMS Trincomalee (1799). She is not the Albatross/Tr'ncomalee/Emilien Trincomalee, but I was able to find enough to make a decent short article because of her fight with Iphigenie in which the two vessels destroyed each other. Do we have anything on Iphigenie? Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:26, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
Yes, Iphigénie, a privateer corvette based either at Isle de France or at La Réunion, commissioned circa December 1798. She was under Jean-François Malroux du Bac (Malroux rather than Malraux, apparently), with 150 men and 16 to 18 guns, either 6-pounders, 8-pounders, or an asortment of both. She would have born 14 guns and 4 swivel guns during her engagement with Trincomalee (maybe 2 8-pounders, 10 6-pounders, 2 36-pounder obusiers and 4 swivel guns). Iphigénie killed 100 to 115 men when she foundered, with only about 35 survivors. Malroux du Bac drowned, apparently while trying to retrieve documents aboard his ship. (no 2926, p. 310)
Cheers! Rama (talk) 13:56, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
Good info, and I have added it. We now have the most complete info on this Trincomalee, and the action. English records are precise that Emilien, which Culloden captured, had been Trincomalee, which had been Gloire, which Albatross had captured. There is no mention of this Trincomalee having been Emily. Do we have any info on Gloire, or on the possibility that Cacotte was actually Cocotte? Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:23, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello, I have looked around to see whether Cacotte could be Cocotte, Carotte or anything of the sort, but no luck there.
Gloire was a three-masted ship built in Bayonne circa 1798/1799, and commissioned as an armed merchantman in Bordeaux in 1799 (I think we can envision a corvette-like ship). 300 tons of load and 16 6-pounders. Arrived in Isle de France under Captain Emit in May 1800. Recommssioned as a privateer, under Captain Étienne Bourgoin from August 1800 to March 1801. Captured by HMS Albatross on 23 March 1801 and incorporated into the Royal Navy as HMS Trincomalee, as a 300-ton sloop, 98'3" by 27'9" by 14'. Retaken by the French and renamed Émilie or Émilien. Recaptured by HMS Culloden on 25 September 1806 and sold circa 1808. (no 2405 p.272 of 1792-1799)
There seems to be a rather obvious collision between the stories of Gloire and of Émilie. Incidentally, the Émilie that was under Surcouf is a different ship altogether, although she was also one of these 300-ton privateer-merchantmen from Bordeaux: she was Lafayette until 1793, then Ile de France until 1794, then Modeste until 1795, then Émilie until 1796, then back to Modeste again. She was captured either by HMS Fox circa March 1797, or by Cleopatra in April 1798. (no 2898, p.308).
Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:06, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
Excellent results. That explains the inconsistency between the Emilie/Emilien origins and all the records that refer to Gloire. I wonder if Demerliac some how confounded an Emilie with the later renamed Trincomalee. Anyway, I can now proceed with the article since the one big hole/question mark is settled.
Cacotte will just have to remain a slightly puzzling mystery then. Too bad.
I have two more Demerliac requests that I will put in a new section. I know that you like to auto-archive periodically and I'll try to keep that in mind when I submit my queries so that any one thread doesn't get too long.

New Demerliac request[edit]

  • Adèle (1800 brig): Some of this was mixed up with another Adèle in the article French brig Adele. I separated the two vessels and wonder if Demerliac has anything on either of them. There is also a third Adèle, of 220 tons, which the British captured at Grand Port in1 1810. The main listing does not mention guns so she was probably a straight merchantman. Again, thanks for the excellent results on Gloire. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 19:39, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Bits and pieces
    • Gloire (1799 ship) is up.
    • Do you by any chance remember the mystery about the captor of Cornwallis (1787 ship)? British sources stated that her captor was Esperse, of 22 guns, Captain Le Dane. And we couldn't find any trace of Esperse or Le Dane. By chance I have solved the mystery. A French source states that Cornwallis arrived at Mauritius on 25 January 1797. It reports that she was a prize to Enterprise, Captain Leblond. "All good things come to him who waits."
Demerliac mentions Adèle under a Captain Harel, captured by HMS Albatros on 12 November 1800 (no 2795, p.326 of 1800-1815). Seems curiously patchy.
I have an Entreprise based at Ile de France: she is the former Jean Bart, a corvette of 500 tons of load, about 180 men and 20 guns, commissioned in August 1794 and renamed Entreprise circa 1795. She was under François Legars. (no 2908, p. 309 of 1792-1799). I am overjoyed that all our sources seem to agree on the first two letters of his name...
Cheers! Rama (talk) 20:17, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
PS: encourage by your lead, I have just drafted Malartic; would you happen to know what became of her after her capture? Cheers! Rama (talk) 20:36, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
I have added what I could to Malartic. Unfortunately, I have not found the slightest hint of what became of her post-capture. I will continue looking, but I hold out little or no hope. (It doesn't help that General Malartic was alive at this time and important; means that one has to wade through many irrelevant links.) The info on Adèle is questionable. Most sources seem to agree that her commander was Nicholas Surcouf. Interesting re Enterprise. I too have some info that gives her master's name as Legars. I wonder if the Blond Dane was captain of the prize crew. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 03:30, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
To clarify, I have not the slightest doubt that Adèle was captained by was Nicholas Surcouf: either Demerliac is alluding to another ship, or she was under a temporary captain after Surcouf had transferred to a prize.
For Gars/Blond/Dane, I often wonder what extent of information is lost simply because the official papers of the time are hand-written. Talking to a specialist of that sort of questions would be very interesting.
Cheers! Rama (talk) 06:13, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
PS: Very impressive improvements to Malartic, many thanks! Rama (talk) 06:28, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
PPS: I am happy to say that a request for funding that I had put forwards before Wikimedia-CH was accepted, allowing me to travel to Rochefort and la Rochelle to photograph the naval and maritime museums there. Rochefort has a subbranch of the Musée national de la Marine, where I know that a number of interesting models are on display.

Hi Rama,

  • Congrats on the WP-CH grant. I hope you will look for small boats too: chasse-marees, luggers, chaloupe-cannoniers, galleys, brigs, etc.
  • I have some friends that are archivists. I will ask them about the handwriting problem. I think it is a factor, especially in names, which can be idiosyncratic and one can't guess at what the word is from context. In our particular case I think there is different problem. I suspect that items in Lloyd's List, the Gazette de l'Ile d France, and the like may have an element of verbal to written transition. That is, someone just asked someone else "who is the captain of that brig?", and took down the answer. At the time, the crews of many of these vessels were extremely international - essentially mercenary. It is quite possible that the captain of the prize crew, or perhaps even Legars, was a blond Dane, generally referred to as "The Guy", "The Dane", or "The Blond".
  • I think there were several Adèles. In addition to Adèle (1799 brig), there was a Jeune Adèle, and there was the later French brig Adèle. There may have been others. Unfortunately, female names are popular for ships. Incidentally, does Demerliac have anything on the later Adèle?
  • Glad you liked the build-out on Malartic. I was delighted when I found the estimate of her burthen, and am a little surprised that Demerliac didn't have anything. I did a little more googling, but my google-fu failed me: I couldn't find anything on post-capture. I suspect that she got a name change and stayed in the Indian theatre, but as a merchantman.

Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:19, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

I have seven Adèle in 1800-1815, but none is reported captured at that time, I assume French brig Adèle is yet another one.
I'll keep an eye open for small units next time I visite one of the museums. The Rochefort expedition is scheduled to take place some time in 2017, but I should visit Paris sooner. I'll let you know if I come up with anything.
Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:14, 11 October 2016 (UTC)


Hi Rama, there was a Coureur at the battle of Ile Ronde on 22 October 1794. Winfield and Roberts state that she started as the privateer Duc de Chartres launched at Saint-Malo in 1780, However, Winfield's book about British warships 1714-1792 makes it almost impossible for the Saint-Malo Duc de Chartres to have become Coureur. I have an inquiry out to Roberts, but in the meantime, what does Demerliac say?

Funny, I happened upon Battle of Île Ronde yesterday and I was thinking it would be nice to do Jean Bart and Coureur if at all possible. I'll let you know as soon as I find something. Cheers! Rama (talk) 05:30, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
I just heard back from Rif Winfield. "Further to my quick response earlier, I can verify that these were separate privateer vessels. Please see entries 1777 and 1837 in Demerliac 1774-1792 volume. The one correction to my 1714-1792 volume would be that the brig-sloop captured by the Cumberland was a Le Havre privateer rather than from St Malo." Do you happen to know which vessel is which number? Also, does Demerliac say anything more that I don't already have in French brig Duc de Chartres (1780)? At some point I should do an article on the Le Havre Duc de Chartres which became HMS Duc de Chartres. I may have to move the existing article I just did to "French brig Duc de Chartres (1780 Saint-Malo)", and create the other one under "French brig Duc de Chartres (1780 Le Havre)". The latter won't be along article, but there are some interesting events. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:35, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
  • 1777 (p.182) refers to a Duc de Chartres, privateer from Le Havre of 220 tons of load, under Jean-Baptiste l'Écolier, which HMS Cumberland captured in North America in February 1781.
  • 1837 (p.186) was a privateer brig or corvette from Saint-Malo, built between 1779 and April 1780. She was sold to the French Royal Navy in September 1782 and transferred to Ile de France after coperring, and as renamed Coureur in September 1792, with 14 4-pounders and 80 tons of load. She was condemned in March 1798 and is last mentionned in 1801. Her remains we still visible in 1808. (no 496 p. 77)
Cheers! Rama (talk) 17:57, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for this. I have prepared the articles:

Clearly, there are more vessels named Duc de Chartres and at some point I should prepare a listing. Also, if you are aware of anything in French sources that might be added on either vessel, please let me know. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 18:50, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Levant & Montreal[edit]

  • Levant - I can find no trace of a 10-gun Levant, or for that matter, any Levant that was captured. Hepper, the most thorough source of British warship losses in the period, has no mention. There was a British frigate at the time, but she was not lost, and she was too big. My best guess is that your Levant was a privateer.
  • Montreal - No doubt that Victoire captured her on 1 May 1779 (British records), and that the French took her into service. That is what our existing article says too.

I have to run now but I will check further, and also into Thetis. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 12:06, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

  • Levant: One vessel I did find was in the 1778 Lloyd's Register. There was 330 ton, armed merchant vessel named Levant on the Bristol-Dominica run. See: [1] (Seq. №95). However, she appears to have been renamed Elizabeth; She still appears in the 1779 LR, [2]. A second scenario is that Levant was a tender to HMS Levant (1758), perhaps a privateer that Levant captured and then put a crew on. If so, I have found no record of such a vessel.Acad Ronin (talk) 14:08, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
Many thanks for these research! We do tend to look for unusual things. Cheers! Rama (talk) 14:10, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Montreal: I have added the info from the English court martial as summarized by Hepper. He also reports that Thetis wrecked almost exactly two years later while trying to enter Santa Lucia bay.Acad Ronin (talk) 01:11, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Trafalgar Day[edit]

Hi Rama, many thanks for the reminder. When I go to dinner tonight with my wife (we always go out on Friday), I will order a rum drink and toast the courage of all the sailors on that day. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 13:59, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

I had a rum and tonic with a slice of lime; I thought that made a pretty good approximation to grog. Cheers, Acad Ronin (talk) 23:41, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Jean-François Hodoul[edit]

Hi Rama, I have almost finished expanding the article Jean-François Hodoul. I got most of the story by translating material from a French website. Unfortunately, they don't give their source, but I suspect that it was Galois. Could you please check to see if what I have is consistent with what he wrote, assuming he wrote anything? Also, any information on Hodoul's vessels would be nice. Thanks, Acad Ronin (talk) 23:28, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Rather strangely, he is not mentionned in my sources are all. I'll have a look are the Demerliac as soon as I have then on hand. Cheers! Rama (talk) 12:27, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
This is the website from which I have gotten most of the Hodoul info Unfortunately, they don't cite their sources. I was hoping it was from Galois, but apparently not. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:31, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Hi Rama, I have found the key source on Hodoul. It is a paper by PAB Thomson that was published in The Mariner's Mirror in 1997. I will be drawing on it when I get back to Hodoul. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 21:33, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
Oh, well done!
I'll be in Paris around next week, I'll keep my eye open for anything we could find interesting in terms of small ships and biographies. Cheers! Rama (talk) 18:32, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

URGENT need help!!!! RAMAAAAA[edit]

Rama, there is a huge issue with a certain article and I thought you could help me because your name is Rama so maybe you are indian, which would help in this case. Are you indian? Anyways I need you to help me because only an admin can fix this one problem. Please respond, and by the way I do not really understand how to see your response, so please post something on my talk page. thank you. Obeyel (talk) 05:16, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, no. Best of luck! Rama (talk) 18:32, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Demerliac request[edit]

Hi Rama, I haven't gotten to Hodoul yet; once I do, there will probably be a number of Demerliac requests. But in the meantime, when you get the chance could you please look at Wanstead (1802 ship). There are three privateers of interest Lady Villaret/Dame Villaret, Grande Decidé, and Sorciere. Sorciere is particularly interesting because she is a British privateer lugger that I believe was the highly successful French privateer lugger Sorciere that HMS Rebuff captured in 1806. Unfortunately she (the British privateer) is too small (67 tons burthen) to show up in Lloyd's Register, so I haven't been able to confirm the transition from French to British privateer, nor have any clue about what happened to her later. Still, she might make a good article.

On a completely different matter, will you be in Paris around 23 June 2017, and would you like to meet for coffee? The reason I ask is that my wife and I will be attending a conference there around that date and we may arrive or leave a day or two early. I will not take offense if you wish to retain your anonymity; I am cautious about reducing mine. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 15:34, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Hello, quicker note than I'd wish to: I'll look up the new ships next week. I would be very keen to meeting up, but I do not have enough visibility to know what I will be in June; I'll keep you informed as events unfold. Cheers! Rama (talk) 22:38, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
No worries. In the meantime I have prepared the article Sorcière (privateer). I am hopeful that Demerliac can provide some good info on the tons. One source suggests that Sorcière was 45 tons (presumably "of load"), making her small enough to be the British Sorciere. I just don't know which of the two captured in 1806 it is. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:43, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
We resume our regular broadcasts with:
  • Lady Villaret/Dame Villaret: the closest I have is a Villaret, a privateer with 65 men and 5 guns, captured in the Carribean by HMS Blonde circa August 1807 (unnumbered, p.340)
  • Grand Décidé: a three-masted ship from Bordeaux, built from February to August 1809 by the Courau brothers and commissioned as Décidé in September 1809 under Louis Briolle. 30.05 metres long, 277 tons of load, 12 officers and 128 men, with 2 6-pounders and 12 24-pounder carronades, coppered. Renamed Grand Décidé in 1810. Mutiny on board on 9 December 1809 leading to the arrest of 17 men and the eventual excecution of 2 of them (no 2320, p. 289 of 1800-1815)
  • Sorcière: Lugger from Saint-Malo, commissioned in September 1803. Said to look like a fishing boat, 45 tons of load, with 42 men and 10 4-pounders. She was under Jacques Laurent from September 1803 to November 1803, under Pierre Dupont from November 1803 to November 1804, and under Jacques Debon from November 1804 to April 1806. (no 2022, p. 264 of 1800-1815)
  • Sorcier: Lugger from Saint-Malo, built in 1805 and commissioned in December 1805. She was under Captain Néel when she was captured by HMS Attack. (no 2032, p. 265 of 1800-1815)
This tips the balance of probability a little bit towards Sorcière (2022), but I wouldn't swear anything. Cheers! Rama (talk) 20:54, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Hi Rama, thanks for this. I have added all the info to the relevant articles. In some cases (e.g., Grande Decide), it's a little excessive for the article where I have included it, but I would rather have the info on line somewhere, and I don't have enough info to make an article just about her. I too think the Sorciere of 1803 became the British Sorciere, and I have said do, but I can only say probably. I just don't have proof. But at least we continue to put your Demerliac grant to good use. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 04:13, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Two-Factor Authentication now available for admins[edit]


Please note that TOTP based two-factor authentication is now available for all administrators. In light of the recent compromised accounts, you are encouraged to add this additional layer of security to your account. It may be enabled on your preferences page in the "User profile" tab under the "Basic information" section. For basic instructions on how to enable two-factor authentication, please see the developing help page for additional information. Important: Be sure to record the two-factor authentication key and the single use keys. If you lose your two factor authentication and do not have the keys, it's possible that your account will not be recoverable. Furthermore, you are encouraged to utilize a unique password and two-factor authentication for the email account associated with your Wikimedia account. This measure will assist in safeguarding your account from malicious password resets. Comments, questions, and concerns may be directed to the thread on the administrators' noticeboard. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 20:34, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Demerliac request[edit]

Hi Rama, I have just uploaded the article Duff (1794 ship), which I am still working on. In 1799 the French privateer Grande Buonaparte captured her. Do we have anything in Demerliac or other French sources on this privateer, or on what finally happened to Duff? Thanks, and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 21:18, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

I have nothing on Duff, and very little on Grand Bonaparte, only that she was a privateer from Bordeaux commissioned by Sallanche and Sorbé in 1798.
On an unrelated note, I have just broken the barrier of 100 models in commons:Category:Ship models in the Musée national de la Marine, so this is a little festive moment for me. The 101st ship is Lionne, which is not only in the Trianon model collection, but is also a sister-ship of Dumont d'Urville's Astrolabe. Rather auspicious, or so I like to think.
Best wishes and cheers! Rama (talk) 22:11, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Hi Rama,
  • 1) Congratulations on the 101th model. They are all beautiful. Is there some way of figuring out what vessels the generic models represent? I would love to add the 14-carronade or 16-gun cutters to the appropriate articles. Also, the Belle Poule appears to be Belle Poule of 1802 (HMS Belle Poule (1806)); am I correct?
  • 2)Grande Buonaparte - what is the Demerliac no. and page? Elsewhere, I have a mention of a Grande Buonaparte of 22 guns and 200 men operating in the Caribbean in 1798. Could this be the same vessel?

Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:21, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

  • Just realised I had forgotten the page, my bad, I must have been more tired than I realised. No. 2389, p.271 of 1792-1799. Information is very scarce beside that, but she could very well be that ship.
  • The generic models in Trianon model collection are often of no particular ships at all (conflating details of various ships of the same class that would normally tell them apart, or lacking them), or sometimes of fictitious ships (for instance there is no Espérance in the Navy lists, yet File:Espérance-IMG 8703.JPG is both named so on the transom, and very accurately detailed). Truth be told, most of the time I lack the knowledge to tell these details apart myself and I rely on the comments provided by the museum.
  • For Belle Poule, are you referring to commons:Category:Scale model of Belle Poule-MnM 21 MG 16? In this case, this is Joinville's ship Belle Poule (1828), a first-rank frigate of the Commission de Paris, commissioned in 1835. She is much more modern than the eponymous Belle Poule (1802), notably with a complete second battery on the uncovered flush deck and 30-pounders on both batteries. The balcony at the stern is also a mid-19th century feature. The model on display in Paris, MnM 21 MG 16, shows her painted black for the Retour des cendres, so the details are harder to make out, and the display case makes it difficult to photograph; I chose a different model on display at Toulon for the article, in the original bi-colour livery, because the photograph is better, the colour scheme makes the feastures of the ship clearer, and because everybody knows Belle-Poule as "the ship painted black" and I like to do things a bit different from time to time.
Cheers! Rama (talk) 06:39, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Many thanks for the Demerliac cite. I have added it. (In my view, one of the most important functions of a Wikipedia article is to give a curious reader signposts to related articles and to interesting readings and sources; same logic as with scholarly articles.) Too bad about the models. I have just seen that you had placed the photo of the 14-carronade cutter in the article Cutter (boat); I had forgotten that. I will try to keep an eye out for places to add the photos. They deserve a wider audience. Regards. Acad Ronin (talk) 12:54, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

New Demerliac request[edit]

Hi Rama, does Demerliac have anything on a privateer VESSEL named Surcouf that was operating near St Helena in April 1804? She captured the whalers Unicorn and the schooner/whaler Whim but gave up Whim at least to the crews. Lloyd's List reported that Surcouf was armed with 24 36-pounders. I have found nothing suitable on that Corsairs site. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 16:50, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Hello, I have two Surcouf, but they are from 1809 and 1810, and both are luggers, I doubt they would have fared well in the Southern Atlantic. Cheers! Rama (talk) 21:51, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for your efforts. Sometimes we are extraordinarily fortunate. And sometimes we are not. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:28, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi Rama, Here's some more, please. I have just completed HMS Tobago (1805). There are three privateers that could do with Demerliacing: Vengeur,Grande Decide, and Grand Napoleon. Thanks. Acad Ronin (talk) 16:21, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

I'll only have access to the Demerliac late next week, I'll make sure to check then. Cheers! Rama (talk) 08:34, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello, so:
  • Vengeur: privateer from Boulogne, commissioned in November 1808, probably a brig. 120 tons of load, 74 men and 17 guns, under Jacques Bourgain (n°1781, p.246 of 1800-1815)
  • Grand Décidé: privateer under Mathieu Goy, commissioned in Guadeloupe in January 1804, 220 men and 22 8-pounder guns. (n°2745, p. 321)
  • Grand Napoléon: Privateer commissioned in Boulogne in March 1806. Was under a captain Huret from January to February 1808, and later under a captain Fourmentin. Might have been captured by the British in 1809. (n°1748, p.243)
Cheers! Rama (talk) 23:09, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi Rama, Many thanks for this. I have added the info to the Tobago article. My best wishes to you and yours for the Holiday Season. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:43, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Page deletion of Nehru college of engineering Thrissur,Kerala, India[edit]

Hello Rama, I need your help to delete( this Wikipedia page of Nehru college. As you may know that this is not a well reputed college and infamous for violence against students. This page is deliberately created for promotion of their institution. Most people refer Wikipedia page of a particular entity in order to get some genuine information. So, those who refers this page will be lead to misguided information. Please take necessary action against this article.For more information about this college please go through below news article link.Their are a lot of news against this particular institution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Krishferrare (talkcontribs) 17:41, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Demerliac request[edit]

Hi Rama, I have just completed Diamond (1798 ship). Her story includes capture by two French privateers on different occasions. However, what I am most interested in is whether we know anything about what happened to her after her second capture when she became Diamant. Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 19:31, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

We actually have a few details on the later carreer of Diamond: she is the Diamant mentionned in Joseph Potier (I realised after looking her up in Demerliac and finding the name of her captain).
Demerliac says: British prize commissioned at Ile de France in September 1808, probably as an armed merchantman ("en guerre et en marchandises" or en aventurier). 600 tons of load with 18 9-pounders. Decommissioned after her arrival at Bordeaux in January 1809. (n°2829, p.329)
Cheers! Rama (talk) 20:36, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
Hah. When we combine English and French sources sometimes we can fit together some more pieces of the great puzzle. I also discovered that what I thought would be a relatively uninteresting whaler turned out to have quite a career: THREE times captured by French privateers in just five years, as well as being a slaver. (The second capture was Bellona in late 1803. Do we have anything on her? Anyway, good stuff. Many thanks, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:13, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
Wow, quite an eventful career indeed. I'll look her up tomorrow (away from books for a day). I should start lists for names like Bellona, Grand Désiré or Napoléon, they keep popping up. Cheers! Rama (talk) 09:21, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
Unfortunately, these were popular names, as you know, and trying to keep them straight can be an impossible task.Acad Ronin (talk)

Here's another interesting one where perhaps Demerliac can help. I have just added the disambig page HMS Berbice. The question is whether the first two schooners are the same vessel. The end-date and disposition of the first schooner Berbice is obscure (some inconsistent info depending on the source), and they could be. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 20:10, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

unforseen events have kept me away from my books, but I am back into action.
  • Bellona seems to be Bellone (n°2237, p.282). There are several Bellone and Bellona, but she was the only one in service at that time.
  • Berbice: I'm afraid I am coming empty-handed here, I have no Berbice listed, and the few Serpent I have do not match these dates. sorry.
Cheers! Rama (talk) 22:44, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the Bellone/Bellona info. As for Berbice, once again, the farther one gets from the Channel the thinner the info. Still, perhaps one day we will be lucky and be able to put some pieces together. Cheers, Acad Ronin (talk) 00:29, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
Quite. I did try to gather information of the French colonies in the Caribbean, but they prioritise social aspects of slave trading and colonial dynamics (if the choice has to be be made, quite rightly so, I daresay) and mentions of ships, personnel and incidents serve to illustrate larger phenomena, and are thus very patchy. Still, even with these limited resources, you are achieving remarkable results, and the recent string of article connecting to one another (Diamond and Bellone) indicates that our coverage is appropriate to make sense of the most significant events. Cheers! Rama (talk) 08:15, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Demerliac request[edit]

I have, in the meantime, I have been busy with articles that could do with some input from Demerliac, if possible.

HMS Duguay-Trouin (1780) - I don't think Demerliac has much more on the privateer than I already have, but she captured a number of prizes that I am interested in: Briliant or Brillant; Ville de Trieste, and Comte de Vermomiett. In addition, Winfield has her capturing La Marquise de Pern, but I have not been able to find any other record of any such vessel.
Banastre (1787 ship) - a French frigate of 44 guns Banastre in 1793 as she was sailing from London to Jamaica, and took her into Santo Domingo. Any guess which frigate that might have been?
Most intriguing question: Could the Vengeur/Vautour that HMS Revenge (1805) captured in October 1809 be the Hired armed cutter John Bull captured in 1809? The report re the capture says that the vessel captured in 1810 was the former cutter John Bull, of Plymouth.

Anyway, best of luck and thanks again, Acad Ronin (talk) 22:41, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

  • Brillant: I have ships of that name, but none that matches our dates.
  • Ville de Trieste: no ship by that name in my records
  • Comte de Vermomiett: no ship by that name in my records
  • Marquise de Pern: no ship by that name in my records
  • Banastre: I have no mention of a Banastre or Banister; we could narrow it down from the frigates at the Antilles station, but that would be specilative on our part.
It is too bad that Demeriac doesn't come in an ebook version as well. Then we could search under the names of prizes, as well as captors.
  • Vengeur/Vautour: the only Vautour I have matching these dates is a naval ship, and the Vengeur matching these dates was captured by HMS Beagle (n°1781, p.246). So I can provide little to back your theory, sorry.
Not a very fruitful search today, sorry. Better luck next time! Rama (talk) 20:09, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
Long shots, though I did have my fingers crossed for the John Bull connection. That would have been a neat find. I will revert with some other requests later this evening, my time. Thanks. Acad Ronin (talk) 20:28, 15 March 2017 (UTC)


Invisible Barnstar.png The Invisible Barnstar
For your tireless work in looking up stuff in Demerliac and for your assistance in things Francophone. Acad Ronin (talk) 23:10, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Demerliac request[edit]

Hi Rama, I finally remembered the article I would like you to check: HMS Pilote (1779). Does the later edition of Demerliac have anything to add either concerning her, or her prize, Justine Adelaide? Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:50, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Hello, here is what I have
  • Pilote: Mutin-class naval cutter, commissioned in Dunkirk in March 1779 under Captain Denys. She was valued at 58,700 livres tournois and had a clinker-style hull, like a drakkar. The rest is already in your article. (N°575, p. 87)
  • Justine Adèle: privateer from home port unknown, commissioned in early 1797, with 20 men and 2 guns. Captured by HMS Pilote in March 1797 (N°3028, p.318 of 1792-1799)
Cheers! Rama (talk) 18:21, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Good stuff. I will add it later today. Thanks. Acad Ronin (talk) 20:42, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

New Demerliac request[edit]

Hi Rama: I was just doing some clean-up on Hired armed schooner Lady Charlotte and noticed that she had captured a number of privateers, and so could benefit from Demerliac's info. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 11:52, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

  • Espoir: Interesting case here: there is an Espoir fron Bayonne, privateer lugger of 35 tons of load, commissioned in March 1799 under Pierre Faulat with 4 officers 14 to 15 men, and 6 small guns. Cruised from March to December. Another cruise with 23 men from 1800 to January 1801, when she was captured. Demerliac attributes her capture to one 12-gun HMS Queen Charlotte, which I very much suspect is actually Lady Charlotte. N°2345, p. 291.
  • Préfet de la Manche (meaning "prefect of the Channel". Préfet de la Mouche is adorable but makes no sense): Privateer lugger commissioned in Cherbourg in 1801 with 49 men and 16 to 18 guns. Captured by Lady Charlotte and Sheerness on 21 April 1801. N° 1937, p. 258
  • Petit Pirate: privateer lugger commissioned in Saint-Malo circa 1800 with 24 men and 4 guns. Captured by the 32-gun HMS Greyhound on 18 April 1801 (I am skeptical on the armament Demerliac gives for Greyhound). N° 2001, p. 263
  • Lady Charlotte: Nothing, sorry.
Cheers! Rama (talk) 22:14, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
Hi Rama, Many thanks. I have added all the info to the article.

En passant request[edit]

Hi Rama: HMS Trimmer (1782) is an article I worked on some time ago, before you got the Demerliacs. She is an ex-privateer capturedin a notable incident. She also captured a privateer. Anything Demerliac can add would be great. Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 00:39, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

  • Anti-Briton: privateer cutter of 250 tons of load, commissioned in Dunkirk with 14 6-pounders and 10 swivel guns. From 1781 she was under John Kelly, who went under the alias of Jean Grumlé, with 162 men and 22 guns. Captured by HMS Stag. N°1719, p. 177 of 1774-1792.
Good info. I have added this.
  • Sally: I have two Sally captured from the British, but one is credited to the frigate Amazone, and the other to Actif.
As Sally never got back to France, it is not surprising that she isn't in the records.
I have never seen the "Flag of the French Navy Revolution" before. I should start using it. Over what period does it apply, and is it naval in the general sense, or doesit apply only to warships?
Cheers! Rama (talk) 12:17, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. Re Sally, can you search over captured ships, not just their French captors? I didn't realize that the index was that thorough. Cool. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:32, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
Some captured ships are listed, but by far not all of them, so it's really very much a roll of the dice. But we sometimes get details not found elsewhere, like the late career of Kent. Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:27, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

2 Demerliac requests[edit]

Hi Rama,

  • HMS Tapageur (1779) - former privateer. This one is a conventional request.
  • Porcher (1799 ship) - here what I am looking for is anything on Ville de Bordeaux, especially on which British ship recaptured her. Bellone/Bellona we already have, but I have not been able to find anything on Ville de Bordeaux. This one is definitely a dice roll. Thanks, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:51, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
the white-with-tricolour canton was a naval ensign, as far as I know, used from 1790 to 15 February 1794. They were phasing it out during the Glorious First of June but a penury of bunting made it difficult to execute the orders and it is possible that at least some ships were still flying this. Compare these two depictions of the sinking of Vengeur du Peuple: File:Vengeur du Peuple-Mayer img 3103.jpg and File:Ozanne-Glorious First of June.jpg.
  • Tapageur: Demerliac lists her as a naval cutter of the Mutin class, although he deems it possible that she was actually a privateer. She might have been built in Dunkirk in 1778 or 1779. Not much more on her. N°576, p.87 of 1774-1792, 1996 edition.
  • Ville de Bordeaux: there was a privateer of that name commissioned at Mauritius in 1805, when she was captured by HMS Concorde, but I doubt she is the one you are looking for, sorry (N°2818, p.328)
Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:56, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
Not surprised that you couldn't find anything on Ville de Bordeaux. Disappointing about Tapaguer. I will have to check my Winfield and Roberts to see if they can confirm the Mutin class possibility. Thanks for looking. Acad Ronin (talk) 20:42, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Demerliac request[edit]

Hi Rama, in updating HMS Alderney (1757), I found that she captured two privateers that might be in Demerliac: Lady Washington in 1780, with an American captain but operating out of Dunkirk, and Puce in 1781. As far as Tapaguer is concerned, I had forgotten that the Brits captured her in 1779, before Winfield and Robert's book. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 17:39, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

sorry for the late reply, I have been through some stuff. So:
  • Lady Washington: nothing on her, sorry.
  • Puce: the only Puce I have is a naval cutter. I am beginning to suspect that 1774-1792 might be slightly lacking in privateers.
Cheers! Rama (talk) 10:14, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Hi Rama, thanks. I hope all is well with you.Here are some more questions re privateers, but 1793-1815 period, so we can hope for a little more luck:

On another matter, my wife and I will be in Paris from 22 June to 25 June. The conference is the Thu-Fri but we will stay over the weekend. We would be delighted to meet with you for coffee, or even a meal if that is possible. Just let me know as we get closer to the date. Thanks again, and I do hope all is OK. Acad Ronin (talk) 11:43, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

All is well now, thank you very much for you kind words.
  • HMS Unique (ex-Harmonie): no entry for the relevant dates
  • Belliqueuse: Brig built by Michel Colin-Olivier upon plans by Forfait, launched in Dieppe on 30 December 1793, coppered. Sold as a privateer in Saint-Malo in November 1797, captured by the British in January 1798 and recommissioned in the Royal Navy as Belette. Between 220 and 280 tonnes of load and 475 tonne displacement, dimensions 96'9" (89 at the keel) by 25'6" by 12'6". 6 officers and 110 to 140 men. 12 12-pounders, replaced by 6 24-pounder carronades and 2 8-pounders in late 1794. 6-month autonomy with 110 men. (Demerliac, 1792—1799, n°559, p.93). Construction started in May 1793, launched on 30 December 1793, commissioned on 30 March 1794; ordered on 15 April 1793; between May and December 1794, patrols between Le Havre, Ostende, Dunkirk and Cherbourg under Lieutenant Louvel; between March and July 1795, convoy escort between Saint Malo and Brest; sationned at Saint-Malo in January 1797 and sold there as a privateer in November (Roche, vol.1, p.70).
  • Sans Souci: privateer from Saint-Malo, pierced for 14 guns, commissioned in October 1812. Under François Rosse from October to December 1812, with 100 and 120 men, and 4 6-pounders and 4 6-pounder carronades. Captured by HMS Briton and Andromache on 15 December. (n°2116, p. 272)
  • HMS Elizabeth (1805): I have an Élisabeth, 10-gun privateer from Cuba in 1805. Demerliac seems confused as to whether she was French or Spanish, and whether she was a cutter or a schooner. Furthermore, he gives her captured by HMS Bacchante and wrecked with all hands in 1807 (He might be conflating a French privateer with a Spanish naval despatch ship). N°2689, p. 316.
  • No entry for Demerara, and no Hebe or Anna matching the dates of interest.
Nothing is certain yet (beside the great pleasure that it would be meeting you) but I might well arrange things to be in Paris on the week-end of 24 June; I will keep you informed as my plans unfold. Until then, my best wishes for your academic and Wikipedian endeavours! Rama (talk) 19:55, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
Hi Rama, good to hear that all is well now, and thanks for the info. I have added info re Belliqueuse and Sans Souci. I am going to have to untangle Elizabeth. I have sympathy with Demerliac on this one. There were two Elizabeths captured in 1805, one a Spanish cutter and the other a French schooner, and the RN took both into service, without changing any names. This was not a problem as the Spanish Elizabeth was lost before the French Elizabeth was commissioned. There is little info on the Spanish Elizabeth so the Demerliac is welcome.
As for a meet-up, my wife and I are also considering going on to Besançon for a couple of days after Paris (I was a stagaire there in the summer 50 years ago, working on my French), and then going on to Lyons, which we have never seen. I have some distant cousins who own a small "chateau" near Pérouges. The chateau is actually a farm house with a tower - I stayed there 50 years ago in the "Henri IV" bedroom - so called because he may have slept there one night while on a campaign. I would like to see Pérouges again to see how the renovations are going on. If those coordinates are more convenient for you please let me know. In the meantime, many thanks for the info.Acad Ronin (talk) 21:48, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Demerliac request[edit]

Hi Rama, I have just finished building out the article on Mary Ann (1772 ship). Could you please check if Demerliac has anything on a 14-gun privateer named Brilliant operating out of Guadeloupe in late 1801. Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 03:08, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Nothing on Brillant, sorry. Nicely done identifying Dryade, incidentally! Rama (talk) 12:59, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for looking. Can't claim too much credit for Dryade. When I looked up Druid in Winfield and Roberts I found one for the 1840s, but the very next name in the index was Dryade, and that struck me as an obvious confusion in names. CheersAcad Ronin (talk) 15:13, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Image request[edit]

Good afternoon Rama, I see you have created images for two French postwar rifle grenades, the APAV 40 and the Luchaire AC 58mm. Would you be able to create something similar for two other French postwar rifle grenades, please? The two grenades in particular are the 34mm Modèle 1952 and the STRIM 65 AC 28 which was replace by the Luchaire design. Amicalement votre Keith H99 (talk) 12:50, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Hello, I just did something for the 34-52/60, and I'll keep the STRIM 65 for my next slot of free time. Cheers! Rama (talk) 18:45, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for looking at this, and working on something for the 34-52/60. Regards Keith H99 (talk) 21:42, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Many thanks for taking the time to create both images Keith H99 (talk) 11:22, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
You are welcome, good continuation to you! Rama (talk) 11:29, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Demerliac request[edit]

Hi Rama, Does he have anything on French corvette Republicaine (1795)? She was in the Caribbean so it's a long-shot. Thanks. Acad Ronin (talk) 10:35, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

She is listed in Roche, p.378, as a requisitioned merchantman launched at Le Havre in 1793. Mentionned in Demerliac at n°507, p. 86, as a corvette of unknown origin commissioned at Granada in 1795, with 18 6-pounders, 240 men and 10 officers. The correct name seems to be Républicaine.
Cheers! Rama (talk) 06:32, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. That helps. Acad Ronin (talk) 11:27, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Demerliac request[edit]

Hi Rama, does Demerliac have anything on a Vautour/Vulture captured in 1798 or 1797? She was a largish vessel of about 340 tons burthen. This is not the Vautour captured in 1796, which was of only 130 tons burthen. The 1798 vessel became a merchantman that is listed as having been captured in 1798, received a letter of marque and sailed for the Cape of Good Hope that year, and then goes off the radar, if I may use that expression, but still was last listed in 1804. Thanks for looking, and cheers, 23:20, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

I have sparse information on two Vautour in these dates, the first being a more likely candidate obvioulsy:
  • Vautour, a privateer from Bordeaux commissioned in July 1798 (or 1797), with 64 men and 10 guns under a Captain Bolle, captured by HMS Matilda in August 1798 (or possibly on 29 March 1798?) (N°2399, p. 272)
  • Vautour, a privateer cutter from an unknown harbour, commissioned in early 1797, captured by HMD Impetueux on 8 March 1797. (N°3051, p. 320)
Cheers! Rama (talk) 09:43, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Hi Rama, thanks for your efforts. Neither of these really matches, but I have added them to a page that I just created: Vautour (ship). There I have corrected some of the info on the Bordeaux Vautour based on English records. Cheers. Acad Ronin (talk) 15:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Demerliac request[edit]

Hi Rama: I have just completed Hired armed cutter Nox. She was involved in the capture of two French privateers, Aimable Therese and General Brune. I hope that Demerliac has some info that I can add to the article. Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:29, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

  • Aimable Thérèse: privateer lugger from an unknown harbour, commissioned in 1799 and captured by HMS Ann on 25 May 1799 (n°3090, p.322 of 1792-1799).
  • Général Brune (ex-Brune): Privateer 25-ton of load from Bordeaux recommissioned at Bayonne in 1798. She was under Lartigue Mongrué with 4 officiers and 10 to 16 men, one gun and 4 swivel guns. Captured by British boats in January or February 1800. (N°2341, p.290 of 1800-1815)
Cheers! Rama (talk) 15:24, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. I have implemented the info. Too bad we can't also correct Demerliac when we have additional info. The question below re Bordelois/Artois looks interesting too; I look forward to your researches. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 18:00, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

The Bordelois / HMS Artois[edit]

Hi Rama. Back in 2015, you worked up the page on the 56-gun Bordelois of 1763, referencing Dictionnaire des bâtiments de la flotte de guerre for detailed evidence regarding the assertion that she was razee'd into a frigate in 1768 and eventually became HMS Artois (a statement also made in Winfield's volume for 1714-1792). However, other sources identify the Bordelois not with the privateer frigate États d'Artois which was captured by HMS Romney in June 1780 and then became HMS Artois, but with a privateer ship-of-the-line named Comte d'Artois, captured by HMS Bienfaisant in August 1780, evidently still in a two-decker configuration, and apparently not taken into service with the Royal Navy. This is stated in a contemporary edition of Le Moniteur,[3] and in a brief biographical notice of the captain of Comte d'Artois, based on a 1999 article on Bordelois which I do not have direct access to.[4]

Obviously, the existence of two privateers called Artois in 1780 has caused confusion. Is there anything in Roche, Demerliac, or other sources you have access to, which would help resolve which ship the Bordelois really became?

Also, do you know about the selection of documents relating to the frigate États d'Artois printed in 1875? They contain a lot of details that were new to me, but (for whatever it's worth) I see no hint of her being a rebuild of an older ship.[5] On the other hand, I have also seen online references to a 64-gun Indiaman Comte d'Artois, launched in 1759, the specifications of which seem very close to the privateer Comte (the Compagnie des Indes museum in Lorient has a modern ship-model of her and also a cutaway model of the hull; I think she must have been a sister-ship of Duc de Duras / Bonhomme Richard, designed by Groignard who also designed the Bordelois).

Thanks, and kind regards, AJN (talk) 12:06, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

I'll do a bit of research and come back right to you on this. Cheers! Rama (talk) 15:25, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
Note to self: Kerguelen-Trémarec, Yves-Joseph (1796). Relation des combats et des évènements de la guerre maritime de 1778 entre la France et l'Angleterre (in French). Imprimerie de Patris. p. 156. 
Thanks!! I've just noticed that even Gardiner's The Heavy Frigate seems confused by this, identifying HMS Artois (presumably incorrectly) with the 64 captured by Bienfaisant in August rather than the frigate captured by Romney in June. AJN (talk) 12:06, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
I have not had the Demerliac handy in the last few days but I should be able to check them tomorrow, I am hopeful that they should clarify the issue. All clues point to authors seeing a 64-gun and a frigate Artois and incorrectly connecting the dots that they were the same ship, as you suspected. I'll keep you informed. Cheers! Rama (talk) 17:54, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello @AJN:, and sorry for the delay,
Demerliac mentions Artois as États d'Artois a 18-pounder frigate, formerley the 56-gun Bordelais, whose rebuilt was financed by Charles Philippe d'Artois (the future Charles X) adn commissioned by the Estates of Artois (hence her name) under Captain Arnous. She displaced 1100 tons (2000 tons full load), length 152 feet (French) and 144 at the keel, beam 37'10" and draught 18', with 460 to 787 men, four 6 month worth of food and 40 guns (28 18-pounders and 12 8-pounders. Captured by HMS Romney in July 1780, sustaining 20 killed and 40 wounded. Recommissioned in the Royal Navy as a 5th-rate (n°332 p.56). Note that she is listed among naval frigates, not privateers.
As Bordelais, she is listed at N°55, p.21 as a 3rd-rate (French classification) 56-gun ship of the line built in Bordeaux (offered as a Don des Vaisseaux contribution from the Parliament and city of Bordeaux) from July 1762 and July 1763 by Léon-Michel Guignace upon plans by Antoine Groignard. She was sold in May 1779 in Lorient to a mister Delay for 60'000 livres Tournois. 2005 tons (2454 tons full load with 500 to 560 men, 6 month worth of food and 56 guns (24 36-pounders, 26 18-pounders and 6 8-pounders; from 1776 her armament was lightened to 24 24-pounders, 26 12-pounders and 6 6-pounders.
Now, was have several Comte d'Artois as well:
  • a careening hulk in Lorient. Built by Antoine Groignard and Gilles Cambry (son), launched on 20 November 1759 and commissioned between April 1759 and February 1760. She was formerly an East Indiaman and was converted to a hulk in 1767 at station n°7 of the harbour. She is last mentionned in 1780, when she seems to have been sold as a privateer. 1200 tons of load, length 157'10" (139'10" at the keel), beam 40'6" and draught 17'9". (N°219, p.42)
  • a privateer from Saint-Malo. Former merchantman under a Captain Girodroux, 300 to 416 tons (clearly a completely different ship). Mentionned as being at Ile de France (Mauritius) in August 1778 (N°1814, p.185)
  • a privateer from Lorient, formerly the British privateer Peters (Saint-Pierre ?) from Liverpool, 300 tons and 140 men with 33 guns, captured by Vengeur (N°1857, p.188)
  • another privateer from Lorient, probably the former East Indiaman and hulk. 1200 tons, with 644 men and 64 guns. She cruised from May to August 1780 under Captain de Closnard and was captured by two British ships of the line (or naval ships, rather) of Ireland, sustaining 57 killed. Not recommissioned in the Royal Navy. (N°1861, p.188)
  • Lastly, there is an entry for an East Indiaman, a 567-ton merchantman commissioned by the East India Company in Lorient in March 1786 under Arnoud Dessaulsaix, bound for Pondichery, Moka, Pondichery again (December 1787) and returned to Lorient in April 1788. She made another journey from April 1788, bound for Trincomalee and Pondichery (June 1789), returning to Lorient in late 1789. Not mentionned later. (N°2178, p.215)
From Kerguelen's relation, we have further details on the capture of Comte d'Artois (N°1861): she was under Lieutenant Chevalier de Closnard and was captured on 13 August 1780 by HMS Bienfaisant (which Kerguelen describes as a 74-gun, while she carried 64) and Charon (a 44-gun frigate which Kerguelen described as carrying 52); she fought for over two hours, sustaining 21 killed and 31 wounded (for a total of 52 casualties, coming close to the 57 killed mentionned above, perhaps incorrectly conflating the wounded with the killed?), before striking as two frigates, which he discribes as Licorne (32) and Hussard (28), where coming in range (we might want to check whether these are Unicorn and Hussar).
I would be keen to hearing your thoughts on this, as well as those of our distinguished colleague @Acad Ronin:, and if you have any further information on your side. Thank you for a very interesting case (most of our privateers are cutters, sometimes corvettes, but seldom two-deckers) and best wishes for the future. Rama (talk) 21:16, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
PS: on your idea that Bordelais was a sister-ship of Duc de Duras, it does not seem to be the case, as Duc de Duras was designed from the start as an East Indiaman (Bordelais was a warship); the measurements of Duras are listed as 900 tons (1500 tons full load), length 145' (126' at the keel), beam 36'8" and draught 15', noticeably smaller than Bordelais and Comte d'Artois (N°1861/219). On the other hand you quite are right that Duras was built by Gilled Cambry son upon plans by Antoine Groignard. (N°325, p.55) Cheers! Rama (talk) 21:28, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Hi Rama and AJN: I just checked the London Gazette. It shows Bienfaissant capturing Comte d'Artois on 13 August 1780. The Gazette referred to her as a "private man of war", and stated that the proceeds were to be shared with Charon, Licorne, and Hussar. There was an HMS Licorne, at the time; she was the Licorne launched in 1755 that the RN captured in 1778 and sold in 1783. The only HMS Hussar in service was an American galley. I'd have to know more about where the action took place to see if she qualifies. Bienfaisant also captured captured Comtesse d'Artois on 8 December 1780. See: "No. 12203". The London Gazette. 30 June 1781.  Acad Ronin (talk) 21:59, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

OK. Hussar appears to have been HMS Hussar (1763). Hepper has her being lost in 1779, and I have found him to be absolutely reliable, but all the other evidence I can find has her being lost in 1780, late enough that she could be one of the vessels involved in the capture of Comte d'Artois.Acad Ronin (talk) 23:37, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Splendid additions to our archeo-naval sleuthing! I have not found anything more precise than "off the coasts of Ireland" as to the location of the capture, but I'll keep an eye open for any further information. Thank you again and good continuation! Rama (talk) 09:58, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Hi Rama, it turns out that WP already had an article on the Action of 13 August 1780, and it has more information on the location of the action. I have implemented there the info from Demerliac. At some point I need to do a small article on Comte d'Artois. There seems to be more about her on the web. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 12:37, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Many thanks for all that! Okay, the situation seems to be as follows:

  • Demerliac places both the 56-gun ship of the line Bordelois and the ex-Indiaman Comte d'Artois at Lorient in 1780. The Indiaman had been a careening hulk since 1767, while the 56 was on the naval roster until 1779.
  • Demerliac and Roche, followed by Winfield, threedecks and WP, state that Bordelois became the frigate États d'Artois, while the ex-Indiaman Comte d'Artois became the two-decker privateer Comte d'Artois. I had liked this because the idea of the Bordelois as HMS Artois with a full upper gundeck and a few 6-pounders on her upperworks suggested a marvelously radical ship-of-the-line design, fitting with the fact that she was an unusually compact 36-pounder ship. But it is contradicted by contemporary evidence...
  • The contemporary newspaper Moniteur, and the 1999 article by M. Baillard (which I suspect none of us have access to), both claim that the Bordelois became the two-decker privateer Comte d'Artois, while sources relating to the frigate États d'Artois give no hint that she was not a new ship. If this was the case perhaps the ex-Indiaman Comte d'Artois was simply broken up (the Indiaman of 1786-1789 seems too small). This version does not involve any ships under going radical rebuilding.
  • The third option is that the Bordelois simply disappears from the records in 1779, that the ex-Indiaman Comte d'Artois became the privateer ship-of-the-line Comte d'Artois, and the privateer frigate États d'Artois was newly built. This option requires neither name changes nor rebuilds, but it is one which no-one has previously considered - and it requires everyone to be wrong.
  • I suppose the question here is whether Demerliac had grounds for thinking that Bordelois became États d'Artois - is this just a confused echo of the statement in the Moniteur that Bordelois became Comte d'Artois? Or to put it another way - who is confused: Demerliac, the Moniteur, or both of them?

Some additional notes:

  • Bordelois, the Indiaman Comte d'Artois and the frigate États d'Artois all have relatively similar dimensions -
1. The Indiaman Comte d'Artois is 157'10" x 40'6" x 17'9" French in Demerliac - the largest figures.
2. Online sources give the Bordelois class at 156' x 43'4" x 19'8" French citing Demerliac, or metric dimensions, citing Roche, which work out at 156' x 42'6" x 19'5" French - are these design measurements?
3. États d'Artois is given at 152' x 37'10 x 18' French in Demerliac (apparently in frigate form).
4. HMS Artois (ex-États d'Artois) is given English measurements of 158'8 (gundeck) x 40'4 (extreme) x 18'6 (hold), working out at roughly 149'11" x 37'10" x 17'4" French. Are French figures measured on the gundeck or upper deck?
  • This discussion has at least cleared up the details of the capture of both États d'Artois and Comte d'Artois.
  • Duc de Duras / Bonhomme Richard is irrelevant to the discussion (and surprisingly small).
  • Roche's Dictionnaire des bâtiments is quoted for statements that the Bordelois was rebuilt as a frigate as early as 1768 and served as an Indiaman in the 1770s. I take it none of this is in Demerliac?
  • The use of a ship of the line as a privateer was not completely unprecedented: in the 1690s Jean Bart had used a number of small two-deckers loaned by the state as privateers, with the 54-gun Maure as his flagship, while in 1745 a two-decker named Elisabeth was sent out as a privateer from St Malo to support Bonnie Prince Charlie's uprising in Scotland. And there are connections between the three ships: a nephew of Jean Bart served as the second-in-command of Elisabeth, while in turn the armateur of the Elisabeth was a relative of the captain of the Comte d'Artois.

Overall, many thanks to both of you! I am not sure if the puzzle is quite solved yet, but I am enjoying the discussion! AJN (talk) 16:29, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Gentles, I unfortunately do not have the time right now to worry this bone. Still, I wouldn't really call Comte d'Artois a ship of the line. The RN too purchased East Indiamen on the stocks or in service with the EIC and called them fourth rates, but they were fundamentally merchant vessels and performed poorly in their RN role. The problem with large vessels as private men of war was that they were not cost-effective. They needed too large a crew, and were over-manned and over-gunned for the most profitable prey, vessels half their size or less, returning from the West Indies. I would bet that four 300-ton brigs, each with about 125 men, would do better than one 1200-ton vessel with 500+ crewmen. AJN, I take your qualms about everyone being wrong, but I would be more worried if I thought all the sources were independent. For instance, above I mentioned Hepper getting the year wrong on the capture of Comte d'Artois. I just queried him and it turns out he got the year from Colledge. Net: a perfectly correlated error between two first-rate researchers. It is clear that Demerliac often drew on the letters appearing in the London Gazette. Furthermore, at the time, plagiarism was not a concept, and certainly not a legal issue. So what appears to be everyone being wrong may be only one, or possibly two erroneous reports being perpetuated. Cheers, Acad Ronin (talk) 17:32, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
For a tiny addition, the Comtesse d'Artois captured in late 1780 might be N° 1815 p.185, a privateer from Saint-Malo under Captain Morin; she might be the same ship as Comte d'Artois (n°1814, above).
Roche is the only one to mention a Comte d'Artois that was both razéed into a frigate and served as an East Indiaman, I strongly suspect that this is an erroneous confusion between the other various ships.
A preview of Les réfugiés jacobites dans la France du XVIIIe siècle [6] reveals a few more information: the full name of the captain, Robert Sutton de Clonard, seigneur de Lugo; he was recently released in a prisonner exchange with England, and was granted permission by Duke de Penthièvre to commission Comte d'Artois (mentionned here as being the former Bordelais). The source of that information is an article by Michel Baillard, "Histoire du Bordelais, vaisseau du Roi" in Bulletin de liaison du centre généalogique sud-ouest, 1st semester of 1999, pp. 27-36. I'll contact the centre in question to see whether they could communicate a scan of the article in question.
Exciting enigma, thank you very much to both of you. Cheers! Rama (talk) 20:02, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Dang, that Sutton de Clonard, I thougt that the name rang a bell: he went on to captain Boussole in the La Pérouse expedition. I'll get started on his article. Cheers! Rama (talk) 20:07, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
I had seen something that suggested that Comtesse d'Artois was a privateer, so that is consistent. What is the correct spelling of the name of captain for Comte d'Artois? I have seen both Clonard and Closnard. Acad Ronin (talk) 20:17, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Closnard is probably an archaic spelling, I'd go with Clonard. Cheers! Rama (talk) 20:37, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Lots to reply to here:
  • Acad Ronin, I agree with you that at least some of our sources are copying each other - the question is, which ones, and which ones are reliable?
  • Regarding East Indiamen, I get the sense that French ones were more ship-shape than their better-known British counterparts - they're often said to have been built specifically to stand in the line of battle, were certainly built strongly enough to carry a full-weight broadside (while British ones were generally limited to long eighteens on the lower battery), had a proper forecastle, quarterdeck, poop (where British ones had a platform and a roundhouse), and I wouldn't be surprised if they had underwater lines shaped less like a cargo crate as well. Many performed without demur as French ships of the line, and two prizes were added the RN as 64s - HMS Duc d'Aquitaine in 1757, and HMS Belleisle (ex-Bertin) in 1761, though admittedly neither had a distinguished career.
  • As to using two-deckers as privateers, I suspect the perceived advantage was that few frigates would dare attack them, and considering how over-manned many French privateers were, the "economy of scale" argument probably applied less than would be expected. They were also fast enough to catch most merchant ships, and able to attack larger and comparatively well-armed targets - not just because they carried heavier metal, but because the longer range of 24-pounders meant they didn't have to close the range and risk damage.
  • The Baillard article might have answers, or at least help us to understand the confusion.
  • The name has always been Clonard in English (the place in question is now a suburb of Wexford) - "Closnard" seems to be an eighteenth century French spelling, perhaps designed to make the name seem less foreign?
Phewh! AJN (talk) 23:57, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
@AJN: Agreed to all, except the scale issue for privateers. If big privateers were a good idea, we would have seen more of them, including among the Americans both in 1777-1783 and 1812-1814. Anyway, unfortunately my paid job is intruding and I need to tidy up some stuff. I will be mostly offline for the next two weeks. Good hunting. Acad Ronin (talk) 00:08, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello @AJN: and @Acad Ronin:,
the Centre généalogique sud-ouest has kindly provided me with scans of the article. It seems to confirm that Michel Baillard got the frigate Etats d'Artois and the Indiaman-privateer Comte d'Artois mixed (he both stsates thats that she was a razéed into a frigate, and gives and unlikely number of guns for a single-decker of this era). There are a number of little details that add colour but little substance, and I am wary of their exactitude given the mixup of the two ships.
But we have a photograph of the letter of Marque, which is interesting. The article also contains a photograph of a ship model of unknown whereabouts, which seems highly detailed, of a two-decker claimed to be Artois; the photograph is credited to the Musée de la Marine, and thus cannot be published here, and it is unclear whether the model represents Bordelois before her transformation, or the East indiaman. I will keep an eye open for this model when I visit museums.
Cheers! Rama (talk) 10:12, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Sutton de Clonard[edit]

Rama, the thread is getting too long. I'll start a new one just for Clonard. The French WP article interestingly does not mention the 13 August 1780 action. That aside, he certainly deserves an article in the English WP. Also, how should we refer to him: Lieutenant le Chevalier Robert de Clonard, seigneur de Lugo? Acad Ronin (talk) 20:17, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

I've just started Robert Sutton de Clonard. I think that it would be "Lieutenant Chevalier Robert Sutton de Clonard, seigneur de Lugo", but that is quite Ancien Régime; "Lieutenant de Clonard" would be the typical military address, at least nowadays. Rama (talk) 20:46, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Hmmm, or "Lieutenant Robert Sutton, Chevalier de Clonard, seigneur de Lugo". Whatever, that's essentially the reason we have a Republic now ^_^ Rama (talk) 21:00, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
I suspect he'd be Lieutenant de Vaisseau Robert Sutton, chevalier de Clonard, because ancien régime naval officer ranks were so stratified. Thankfully, this source says he was promoted capitaine de vaisseau in 1787. On the other hand, I can't see any indication that he inherited the seignurie of Lugo - he seems to have been the fifth son. AJN (talk) 22:30, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
@AJN: Thanks for this. I have started adding in the info. Acad Ronin (talk) 23:37, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Demerliac request[edit]

Hi Rama, I have just posted the article Houghton (1782 EIC ship). In 1795 she was part of a squadron that captured two French privateers: Vengeur and Resolu. Does Demerliac have anything on them? Cheers, Acad Ronin (talk) 00:17, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Hello, glad to see you at sea again!
  • Résolu (possibly Résolue): 205 or 250 tonne of load privateer commissioned at Ile de France circa September 1793 under Captain Jolineaux (or Jallineaux; the joys of hand-written archives...), with 230 men and 26 guns (6 12-pounders and and asortment of 20 8- and 6-pounders). Captured "with heavy casualties" by Britannia and Non-Such on 22 January 1794 (N°2903, p. 309)
  • Vengeur: privateer commissioned at Ile de France circa September 1793 under Captain Corosin (or Carosin) with 250 men and 34 guns (asortment of 8- and 6-pounders, I feel for the gunners handling the ammunition). Captured on 11 January 1794 (?) by Britannia and Non-Such, sustaining 37 killed and wounded. (N°2904, p. 309)
Cheers! Rama (talk) 09:02, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Hi Rama, anchors are aweigh. That is good info and I will add it to the relevant articles. Your point about the gunners is a good one. I am surprised that captains/owners didn't try to simplify their armament by standardizing on fewer types. It suggests that they bought whatever was cheapest, and didn't really expect to use them much. Cheers, Acad Ronin (talk) 11:43, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

I suspect that there were guns of various lengths, and when I see "2 8-pounders and 16 6-pounders", I'd envision to long 8-pounders as chase guns and a battery of cheap short 6-pounders, ofter captured from other ships. But in some cases, the list suggests a main battery with larger guns amidships, completed with smaller pieces at the extremities, like a minuscule and unarmoured central battery ironclad. Rama (talk) 08:37, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Nomination of Yu Hui Tseng for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Yu Hui Tseng is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yu Hui Tseng until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. DrStrauss talk 22:27, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


Can you please semi-protect the article Deportation of the Crimean Tatars for unregistered users? An anonymous IP keeps inserting a lot of undue weight in the article. If he has questions, he can always try to reach consensus on the talk page before disruptive editing.--Seiya (talk) 16:56, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Trancrède vs Tancrède[edit]

Salut Rama !

Je me suis permis de renommer cet article : French aviso Tancrède (1862), il me semblait qu'il y avait un "r" en trop dans "Trancrède", selon plusieurs sources. Vu que tu as utilisé le Roche, c'est là-dedans qu'il y a une typo ou t'avais juste oublié tes lunettes ? Face-grin.svg Gonzolito Pwet 12:06, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Salut ! Je vérifierai par acquis de conscience, mais à tous les coups j'ai fait une faute de frappe, effectivement !
Merci et bonne continuation ! Rama (talk) 12:56, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Demerliac requests[edit]

Hi Rama, I am back to doing the occasional HMS vessel. Could you please look at HMS Matilda (1794) and HMS Matilda (1794)? The first has lots of privateers captured, but unfortunately all in the West indies, so there may not be much. The second is a former privateer named Mathilde, but it too was in the West indies. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:03, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

it will be a few days until I have the Demerliac handy, but I will of course look this up as soon as I do.
Nice to see you back at sea! Cheers! Rama (talk) 11:20, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
PS: you seem to have mentionned Matilda twice, did the second occurrence take the place of another vessel? Rama (talk) 11:21, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
Two HMS Matildas. One in 1794, and the other in 1805. Dumb error. Cheers, Acad Ronin (talk) 12:24, 20 September 2017 (UTC)