User talk:Robert McClenon

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Evidence word count[edit]

You can save time by using Word Counter instead of copy/paste in Word. - Cwobeel (talk) 20:02, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

Thank you for your efforts with Magneto (generator). Another dispute at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Reciprocating electric motor has been running for more than seven days. I have looked at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Administrator instructions but it is not clear how I get an administrator appointed. Could you tell me please? Biscuittin (talk) 10:07, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

VisualEditor News #2—2015[edit]

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-Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk), 17:50, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Third opinion opinion[edit]

If you don’t mind my asking—how was my Third Opinion request? I think it was my first time using that, so I’d appreciate any feedback, mostly on its neutrality. How would you have worded it yourself? Feel free to delete this post if you prefer not to answer. Thanks, and thanks for responding to the request! — (talk) 16:48, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Replied on my Talk. Face-smile.svg174.141.182.82 (talk) 19:57, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Request by Factchecker for extension of deadline to present evidence in defense of Collect[edit]

FWIW, I was never notified of this case and only discovered it by accident several days ago. I believe I can put forward substantial evidence suggesting that parties filing the case against Collect have engaged in the same misbehavior they accuse Collect of, or worse, and have deliberately violated content policies to improperly put left-leaning POV spin into WP articles, and that it is Collect's resistance to these improper editing tendencies, rather than his own alleged violations of policy, that has landed him in their crosshairs. I understand that the committee may wish to proceed according to a normal timetable, but given the circumstances I think it only fair that I be granted a brief extension to present evidence in his defense. In this case we have numerous people working against one, and it would appear they've been preparing for this case for some time before filing it. I request an extension until 5pm GMT on Sunday April 12th to make additional submissions. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 18:13, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:New Kadampa Tradition[edit]

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:New Kadampa Tradition. Legobot (talk) 00:06, 8 April 2015 (UTC)


left User:Middayexpress and User:AcidSnow and User:Largoplazo have been notified on their talk pages .Hadraa (talk) 21:53, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Aergas has Returned[edit]

He has unilaterally reverted edits on the page once again. I reverted them back to the original form of the article.

Alon12 (talk) 15:49, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Jr. comma RfC[edit]

You're invited to participate in the discussion at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#RfC:_Guidance_on_commas_before_Jr._and_Sr. Dohn joe (talk) 02:00, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

3O on Dalmatian Italians[edit]

Hello, it appears that requesting a 3O is useless because some editors ignore the outcome. Can you give a look please. Regards. Silvio1973 (talk) 12:29, 22 April 2015 (UTC)


Users Director and Tuvixer made only vandalism in Dalmatian Italians because I ordered list of notables with other enty and word [entered] is obvious neutral because Yugoslav army was later fought by Croat army: Croat is independent State after a war against Yugoslav soldiers. May you block Tuvixer?Teo Pitta (talk) 16:19, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

reported Tuvixer removes POV's banner and engaged edit war here; may you block him? Teo Pitta (talk) 16:48, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

word [vandalism] was used firstly by Tuvixer versus me in other articleTeo Pitta (talk) 16:55, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Minority language[edit]

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Minority language. Legobot (talk) 00:04, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

I am new and I need help. I am not an expert in this.[edit]

Hi Robert---I am all new to this. You just closed out my request for help in my editing Don Lane (Santa Cruz) article. I AM a registered user--perhaps I didn't fill out the form correctly. Can you help me at all? The discussion on Talk doesn't seem to go anywhere. Why is there a Admin lockout on the page?

My Problem is true and my postings honest.The Man of Heart (talk) 04:31, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

re: Discretionary Sanctions[edit]

Does this mean I'm forbidden to edit Balkan-related topics in future or? --Yerevani Axjik (talk) 21:56, 25 April 2015 (UTC)


Hi, you may remember I requested intervention in a dispute between myself and User:David-King on the Battle of Old Trafford article. You may also remember that User:David-King made no attempt to participate in any kind of dispute resolution and the request was closed without incident. However, this user has since continued to make edits that go against the (minimal) consensus established on the article talk page by misinterpreting the comments of myself and User:Cliftonian to suit his whims and misinterpreting the sources to fit his agenda. I'm not expecting you to step in and put a stop to this shitfest, but I would appreciate some guidance as to what measures I can take to get at least someone to help settle this dispute. I'm afraid I'm just not getting through to User:David-King, and it's getting quite frustrating to talk to a brick wall. – PeeJay 08:15, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Help desk question[edit]

Should we tell the IP at the help desk who asked about AFDing "Turkish Airlines Flight 1878" that if he/she registers and becomes autoconfirmed then twinkle can be activated and it makes starting an AFD easy? I'm not sure I want to give advice like that on an open page like the help desk (in case there are trolls watching.) RJFJR (talk) 15:20, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Never mind, the IP says they don't want to create an account so it doesn't matter. RJFJR (talk) 14:07, 29 April 2015 (UTC)


I assume you won't mind I indented your comment on the religion thread to make it clear you were responding to me, not continuing my comment. The actual full quote was "I don't care what color the baby comes out, as long as it comes out Catholic." μηδείς (talk) 17:44, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

A cookie for you![edit]

--L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 02:23, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Fumble fingers[edit]

Sorry about the accidental rollback I just did. -Roxy the Viking dog™ (resonate) 06:41, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Talk page[edit]

Hi Robert, since I am not listed as a party to the ArbCom case at hand, would you mind removing or striking that erroneous notice on my Talk page? Thank you, Softlavender (talk) 02:21, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Fort Lee lane closure scandal#Neutrality[edit]

Will you intervene once more? --George Ho (talk) 19:34, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Barnstar of Diligence Hires.png The Barnstar of Diligence
This is for all of your tireless work, especially in helping at DRN and clerking for ArbCom. I must say that it is an incredible honor to work with you. Thanks for your service on Wikipedia! --L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 23:13, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

May 2015[edit]

Enough. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:56, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Peter May. Your edits needed to have consensus- it was completely inappropriate to make a radical change like this without consensus, I'm trying to start a proper discussion at Talk:Peter May. Joseph2302 (talk) 21:10, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Also, the best place to discuss this is Talk:Peter May, not my talkpage. Joseph2302 (talk) 21:21, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

This "warning" is more unconstructive and inappropriate. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:44, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
Could someone explain why? Their actions were to make a move without consensus, when I tried to revert the change, they contested my attempt to revert, and instead started a WP:RFC, instead of following the proper procedure at WP:RM. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:45, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
Pages can be moved without prior discussion:
" If you have no reason to expect a dispute concerning a move, be bold and move the page." [WP:RM]]
Complaining about a RfC, which is an attempt to gain concensus, and insisting on a strict move-procedure, looks like an attempt to game the system, and to push your personal preferences. If you really insist at a strict move-procedure, then start such a request. But you could also simply participate in the RfC, and respect the outcome. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 10:11, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm not gaming the system, I believe that the move was controversial, and they should have forseen that it would be- whilst they believe the writer is important, they failed to acknowledge that the cricketer was also important too, and so their move was controversial. I'm not trying to "game the system", I'm trying to get the move debated as per the proper procedure for controversial moves. If consensus says that the cricketer is not the main article then that's fine, however there should be a discussion to this controversial move, which should have taken place before it was moved. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:17, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
Also, I don't approve of being told I'm "gaming the system", I'm trying to do what I believe is best for the encyclopedia, which is undoing a controversial move, and having a proper move discussion. As you think I'm trying to game the system, this is notification that you are banned from my talkpage indefinitely. Same for Robert McClenon, for making a controversial move and then complaining when I tried to undo it and get some legitimacy in the move. Any posts to my talkpage by either of you will be considered harassment. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:32, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
I will note that I did think that the cricketer was important also. That is why I made the disambiguation page primary. If I had not thought that both people were important, I would have made the writer primary. As far as the talk page of User:Joseph2302, we aren't on it, but on my talk page, and I haven't banned Joseph2302 from it, even for a now stricken personal attack. It appears that Joseph2302 doesn't want certain types of posts on his talk page. He may miss useful information by banning some editors. I will point out that some posts, such as ANI notices, override a personal talk page ban. Oh well. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:57, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
I see no evidence in the history that User:Joshua Jonathan ever posted to User talk:Joseph2302, so that the ban from that talk page appears to be a pre-emptive strike, possibly to keep his talk page free of comments that can be considered critical. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:35, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I'm striking the user talkpage ban, but the reason for it was I didn't (and still don't) feel that either of you are assuming good faith towards me. I was entitled to contest Robert McClenon's controversial move yesterday (albeit I was a bit heavy-handed), but I still felt that your comments were harsh. Fundamentally I disagree with how this discussion happened, but I'm glad an actual discussion had now taken place. As for @Joshua Jonathan:, I was very unhappy that they believed I was "gaming the system", when all I've been wanted to do is have a discussion about the move- although we don't agree on the outcome, I believe everyone should be allowed to participate in the discussion without their integrity being questioned. Everything I've done on the move/RfC discussion I have done in what I perceived to be the best interests of the encyclopedia. The talkpage ban was a pre-emptive move, because at the time I didn't want to discuss the topic further. I still stand by my comments on the discussion, but if consensus is against me, then that's fine too- I don't really have anything to add to the discussion. Joseph2302 (talk) 18:02, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

My apologies for my statement; it was overdone. I've striked my comment too. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:25, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-hatting comment at ArbCom talk page[edit]

The discussion of ArbCom cases on the talk pages of ArbCom case clerks is not permitted and is considered tendentious. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:41, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello Robert, I hope you can please answer a brief question for me about something that happened recently at this hatted ArbCom talk page section. The first comment pinged FactChecker, but he did not get there until after you hatted the section. When he got there, he nevertheless inserted the last comment of the section. There doesn't seem anything objectionable about the content of FactChecker's comment, and neither you nor anyone else seems to have objected to it at the time. It might have been better (though more convoluted, bureaucratic, and time-consuming) if FactChecker had formally requested your permission to insert his one and only comment in that thread. Anyway, it's now become an issue at WP:ANI. Do you regard this edit by Factchecker as a big deal, or not? Thanks.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:56, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Way to ask a question in a neutral manner. Since AYW's already poisoned the well, let me point put that the opinion they're is trying to undermine is that only clerks and Arbs should hat discussions on Arb pages, and when a discussion is hatted, that's the end of it. If not, pretty much negates the entire purpose of the hat, which is to stop the discussion in its tracks. BMK (talk) 06:43, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm not trying to "undermine" that general rule. I'm just suggesting that some infractions or exceptions are no big deal, especially if ArbCom and its clerks raise no objection when they occur. And I wanted to know if that is correct. I won't have any more to say about FactChecker for the foreseeable future, as I have said plenty already.Anythingyouwant (talk) 07:15, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
Fact-checker was formally warned by an arbitrator for conduct on ArbCom pages. Nothing more needs to be said about Fact-checker; there have been no subsequent violations. The posting of case-related questions about ArbCom pages to the talk pages of case clerks is not permitted and is considered tendentious. Both editors in this thread are being formally warned. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:41, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please comment on Talk:Siege of Kobanî[edit]

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Siege of Kobanî. Legobot (talk) 00:04, 9 May 2015 (UTC)


Just because I have this talk page on my watchlist, I just thought of notifying you about this discussion. OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 19:02, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Somalis in the United Kingdom RfC[edit]

Hi Robert (if I may). You might recall that we had a brief discussion about mediation for the Somalis in the United Kingdom article after another editor posted at ANI about it. There was an RfC active at that time, and you reported that it needed to end before any mediation could begin. The RfC, which was part of this section of the talk page has now been closed by a bot. Can I ask whose job it is to assess the consensus of the comments? I think it's pretty clear, but I was involved in the debate, so I'm not neutral. I'd like to get this cleared up before I consider mediation. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:30, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

User:Cordless Larry - The usual procedure is to request closure at WP:AN, or to wait for a request to be made in WP:ANRFC at WP:AN. However, the RFC can be closed by any experienced editor, admin or non-admin, and the request is simply a way to get the attention of an editor who is familiar with closing of RFCs. I have closed RFCs in the past and have gone ahead and closed your RFC. I think that we are now in agreement that, given how many issues keep coming up at that article, a request for formal mediation would be in order. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:11, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, Robert, and sorry about the fact that I didn't frame the RfC with a clear question, as you noted. I'll look into requesting mediation when I get the chance. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:14, 10 May 2015 (UTC)


Hi Robert. I would like to know when is an okay time to redact unsatisfactory wikitext after a rough consensus? Also, what is the policy regarding external forum announcements pertaining to Wikipedia? Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 02:11, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

If the redaction of "unsatisfactory" text is based on an RFC closure, it can be done at any time, but discussion on the talk page would be a good idea. I am not entirely sure what you mean about external forum announcements, because they sound like external spam. What do you actually mean? Can you be more specific? I have a dislike of overly general questions about Wikipedia, because some questions are asked in order to get an answer that can be used to wikilawyer, but I can see that your questions appear to be real questions. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:09, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
Ok, thanks for that. I know that there is a policy somewhere on the mutability of consensus, especially a rough consensus; however, I was unsure as to the appropriate length of time when that would come into play. Is there an extant policy on how to appropriately word external forum announcements? Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 16:05, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
What do you mean by external forum announcements? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:11, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
Are there any templates that editors can use for general announcements on Wikipedia activities, events and such? Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 16:42, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
I suggest that you take these questions to the Help Desk. I am sure that some of the regular editors there can address your questions. What are external forum announcements, anyway? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:50, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
Not sure yet, but thanks. Cheers, Middayexpress (talk) 17:05, 12 May 2015 (UTC)


Enough here. Discussion can take place at an article talk page or at WP:DRN. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:12, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Thanks for your help, I never though my first thread would go that badly. I was hoping the ANI thread would remain open though because of the user's incivility and personal attacks in the thread itself. Is that a good idea? Rider ranger47 Talk 01:49, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Taking this to WT:DRN. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:51, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm involved, you know, but I must express a strong disappointment for both closures. @Rider ranger47: did his best. But imnsho your choose for lassez faire cannot work when one of the involved parties trolls. What I was looking for was 3O about the tag I tried adding, what I got is a bunch of trolling. --Vituzzu (talk) 07:59, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
See my comments at WT:DRN. It was clear that the moderated discussion was not working. DRN does not assign blame for why moderated discussion is not working. Go back to the article talk page. If there is conduct that you think is further trolling, please first read the boomerang essay and then, if your own conduct is appropriate, report the trolling in a new thread at WP:ANI. It might result in the troll being blocked, or the editor might collaborate with you. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:12, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC: Guidance on commas after Jr. and Sr.[edit]

Following the closure of a recent RfC you participated in, I have started an RfC on the separate but related issue of commas after Jr. and Sr.. Please see Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) § RfC: Guidance on commas after Jr. and Sr. and feel free to comment there. Thanks! sroc 💬 06:03, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Re:safety behaviors[edit]

I am a bit confused why you left me a message, I think that was already said on WT:DRN. Rider ranger47 Talk 15:28, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, I shall try to be clear.[edit]

Please, let me be very clear. I have not suggested Paluzzi was a member of the Abstract Expressionism Movement. What I have suggested is that his work in the late ‘50s and early 60s was stylistically similar to the Abstract Expressionists. I received this suggestion from a professor of Art History at the school from which Paluzzi received his two degrees. What I also suggested was that per edits by JNW there are no published references as to Wilke, Wols or Zao Wou Ki being part of the Abstract Expressionism Movement or that their work was stylistically similar to the Abstract Expressionists. I also suggested that Modernist contradicted himself by deleting Romul Nutiu for not being an American when there are a number of non-Americans on that list. I hope to continue making positive comments and hope others will also add to these discussions. Sirswindon (talk) 18:24, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Your ANI close[edit]

Robert, I didn't "strongly caution Dr. K. for on-wiki raging" in my long final post in this ANI thread — not even close — I said, mildly, that his description of "vile attacks" was "overly colourful" and that all the people on the talkpage seemed angry. Nobody else in the thread had said anything critical about Dr. K. at all. So it seems you weren't summarizing the thread or its outcome, but expressing your own opinion about Dr. K.'s conduct in closing the thread — a rather extreme opinion IMO — and cautioning him as from yourself (though in that mealy-mouthed passive voice)..? I don't understand why — it's surely not the usual use of a closing note. Understandably, Dr. K. was upset. Is there something I've misunderstood about the situation? I seem to remember that the last (and probably only previous) time that I posted a query on your page, you ignored it. Right, here it is. That's your prerogative, but you understand it's a little chilling. I'd appreciate it if you'd please reply to this one, because I'd like to know if I've got something wrong. Bishonen | talk 19:28, 15 May 2015 (UTC).

Well, Dr. K. reverted the close, and I left the revert alone. Maybe I was alone in thinking that Dr. K. was also out of line. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:54, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
The caution was meant to be from me. I can understand that it was misunderstood. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:54, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Hello Robert. I can't say for sure if you have been pinged in relation to the discussion which was started on Bishonen's talk page in relation to the above (I've thought diffs would do that but I've been reliably informed that pinging doesn't necessarily always work anyway). Either way, I wish to notify you of that discussion and to assure you that you should feel free to comment there if you wish; it relates to concerns which have been raised but is an informal discussion. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:48, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
The caution was meant to be from me. Your caution, not based on any objective or even acceptable criteria, should in future be kept to yourself. Otherwise it is unconstructive on-wiki behaviour. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 19:01, 16 May 2015 (UTC)


Rainbow trout transparent.png Whack!

You've been whacked with a wet trout.

Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know you did something silly.

This suggestion that, well, somebody, anybody, has to blocked makes me glad you don't have access to the tools. Could you try in the future to refrain from commenting on disputes you don't seem to want to take the time to understand, since such carelessness costs us contributors, who simply tire of being insulted by the uninformed? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:01, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Invitation to WikiProject TAFI[edit]

Today's Article For Improvement star.svg
Hello, Robert McClenon. You're invited to join WikiProject Today's articles for improvement. Feel free to nominate an article for improvement at the project's Nominated articles page. Also feel free to contribute to !voting for new weekly selections at the project's talk page. If interested in joining, please add your name to the list of members. --Bananasoldier (talk) 18:47, 20 May 2015 (UTC)


Hello Robert! Just want to thank you for you attempt to smooth things over in the SDUSA Lede discussion at DRN. It's disappointing to me that the discussion failed. In light of how bitter it ended, do you think it would be best if I refrained from moderating for a period? I always liked helping at DRN, but if that's what you think is best, that's ok with me. Please advise. EnglishEfternamn*t/c* 07:03, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

User:EnglishEfternamn - I am replying here because a combative editor is on your talk page. I think that you made a good-faith mistake in coming across as not entirely neutral. I don't think that you should refrain from moderating, but you should learn from your mistake. I do suggest that you formally ban Dame Etna from your talk page. I would suggest being even more neutral in future moderation. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:56, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Fair enough, thank you.EnglishEfternamn*t/c* 02:57, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Special Barnstar Hires.png The Special Barnstar
This is for your (over) three months of diligent service as an arbitration clerk. It was an incredible honor working with you. I hope to work with you in the future- perhaps at DRN? Good luck, and happy editing! --L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 22:36, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan[edit]

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan. Legobot (talk) 00:05, 24 May 2015 (UTC)


Hi Robert. Do you have time to take a quick look at the High fructose corn syrup page? --sciencewatcher (talk) 13:13, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Dispute on Proposed Supercarriers - resolved?[edit]

How can you call this dispute "resolved" when only one side of the argument participated? - Nick Thorne talk 02:20, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

You chose not to participate. You did not express an opinion against the use of the RFC. If dissatisfied, go to the dispute resolution noticeboard talk page, or participate in the RFC. Sometimes silence is assent. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:17, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I did indeed choose not to participate and I gave my reason at the time - my position had been grossly misrepresented, but you in turn choose to gloss over that. Not the actions one would normally expect from a neutral "mediator". - Nick Thorne talk 00:28, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Violence and Buddhism[edit]

Thank you for your input. I might have to put in for DR; except by inference, I cannot determine what the other editor's actual position is. Thank you for the suggestion. Ogress smash! 19:40, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

You don't need to know what the other editor's actual position is. The other editor states what their position is, and, when there is a moderator, the moderator can ask questions. I didn't answer partly because I didn't know what the controversy was. If the case were at DRN, I would ask. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:06, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
I'll consider it as the other editor has replied to the RFC, but to date continues to not speak to me about their position. A girl can hope, though... Ogress smash! 19:10, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

About dispute resolution noticeboard procedure[edit]

I am not very familiar with the process at the noticeboard, so I wanted to ask you about it before I do something I maybe should not. Both I and StBlark have now submitted summaries of the dispute over Rosaline as an unseen character. I would like to briefly reply to StBlark's comments in the discussion section but do not know if that is appropriate to do. (talk) 04:58, 1 June 2015 (UTC) (=

why did you revert off topic collapse in RfC?[edit]


  1. WP:TPO guidelines recommend a collapse when conversations go off topic
  2. I left the collapse expanded by default

I'm helping people to not get distracted by a side conversation. What point is there in removing it? How does that help anyone? OnlyInYourMindT 14:34, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Robert, I have to agree with OIYM. Your intentions are of the highest order but you are overstepping the limits of your involvement on this topic. First by first crafting the RfC in your words and then by editing/collapsing a section of the RfC when you deem some portion of it to be 'off topic'. The DRN case was yours to administer as you saw fit. The RfC belongs to the community and the last person that should be editing an RfC is the person who created it. My suggestion is to revert your collapse and walk away from that page and let the editor community on that page do its thing. For better or for worse WP is governed by mob rule. Everybody has a say, everybody can edit. No one person, not even an Admin, is allowed to take things over. That is a big change from a top down corporate society that thrives on order and system. It takes some getting used to but if a person wants to prosper on WP they need to make that adjustment. We can contribute a little but then we have to step back and let others do their thing. Cheers! -- KeithbobTalk 18:20, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
I could explain my reasoning (I didn't think it was off-topic), but will defer now to the advice of User:Keithbob. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:30, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Robert for your flexibility and well intentioned efforts! -- KeithbobTalk 04:29, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

More of Zeitgeist things[edit]

I just received what I would call a very intense personal attack by Andy The Grump on my user page and also in the RFC in progress. I think its uncalled for and not accurate. It is about as nasty as it gets. The same user once called me a little shit at an ani. Is there anything you can do. I don't think I deserve this kind of treatment. Its just a content dissagreement. Earl King Jr. (talk) 11:12, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I am not in charge of the RFC or the talk page. I will take a look. If there are personal attacks, they can be reported at WP:ANI. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:20, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Bangalore Case[edit]

Hi, I am the new user of Wikipedia, I am not aware of Requested Move. You are unnecessarily suspecting me of an failed RM. Which I have not initiated at all.

Now I have initiated the RM in Bangalore talk page. I have also suggested an workaround for the issue, where I hope that no one would object any more. Intention is not to remove Bangalore wiki page but to introduce new Bengaluru wiki page itself. As you are the expert wiki contributor, I request for your help and guidance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AVINHSN (talkcontribs) 18:58, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

As an uninvolved editor can you fix the mess at Talk:Bangalore? --NeilN talk to me 19:20, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

The new inexperienced editor needs to read WP:Redirecting to see that Bengaluru already redirects to Bangalore. Many inexperienced editors think that copy-and-paste copies of articles are the way to provide alternate titles. I will try to explain to the new editor how redirects work. If he listens, everything will be all right. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:02, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, DrK got it. [1] --NeilN talk to me 20:05, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

RFC close[edit]

You made a somewhat controversial RFC close here on Ayurveda. There were twenty participants. Based on Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/OccultZone/Archive, it would appear that the following users are all socks of each other:

Based on that somewhat overwhelming sock participation, can I get you to reevaluate that close?—Kww(talk) 00:34, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. I just wanted someone that wasn't going to be accused of favoring one side to take the steps.—Kww(talk) 02:05, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

The White House cat[edit]

You're asking WMF to do something that has the potential to jeopardize the reputation of Wikipedia. Ain't gonna happen. But good work on reversing the close. That shows class. If more people were willing to clean up after themselves (even on things like this that aren't really their fault) this place would run much more smoothly. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:17, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

What does the White House have to do with the socks? The socks were from South Asia. Did Clinton appoint one of them to an ambassadorship? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:15, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Anyway, like other deep abuses of Wikipedia, like Qworty, the ugly truth will come out. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:15, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
More like Kumioko than Qworty. Pretty lame outcome but I'm not too worked up or that surprised by it. (talk) 05:04, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

American politics decision[edit]

I am not sure the incoming discretionary sanctions for the American Politics topic would sufficiently cover the Zeitgeist issue. The movement is international and the movies touch on subjects other than U.S. politics such as the Chirst myth theory. Not sure if the third movie even touches on national political issues at all, judging from some of the descriptions and reviews I have read. Seems the third movie is more of a run-down on political and economic concepts of international appeal. Discretionary sanctions do exist that cover BLP issues, fringe science, and 9/11, but it still probably does not cover every aspect of the Zeitgeist dispute.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 23:34, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

What is your point? Enough of the first two movies does fall within DS so that DS can deal with disruptive editing. The disruptive edits either have to do with the movement or with Peter Joseph. The latter is already in DS, and the former will be in a few days. Are you saying that ArbCom needs to impose expanded DS, or that DS won't work, or that edit-warring is the right answer? I don't think that you suggesting edit-warring. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:21, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Just saying the American Politics decision and prior decisions may not adequately cover the Zeitgeist topic area. It doesn't just involve American Politics, 9/11, or other topics already covered by discretionary sanctions. There would likely be some dispute about whether TZM and the related films are all covered under the discretionary sanctions even after the American Politics case closes. Andy is saying he will take it to ArbCom and that is probably the best way to handle it if things don't change soon.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 03:57, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Your strike at DR/N[edit]

Instead of striking the entire statement, you could have struck on the volunteer lead in and used superscript to indicate it was a 3rd party comment. Would you please remove the strike of the entire statement since the poster stands by it? Thank you - sorry to be a bother but I think it's only fair to remove the full strike. --Atsme📞📧 23:34, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I know that I could do that. I understand that the poster stands by it. I won't unstrike. If the coordinator thinks that I exceeded my authority, that is different. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:22, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Ok, understood. Thank you. --Atsme📞📧 16:54, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

VisualEditor News #3—2015[edit]

Did you know?

When you click on a link to an article, you now see more information:

Screenshot showing the link tool's context menu

The link tool has been re-designed:

Screenshot of the link inspector

There are separate tabs for linking to internal and external pages.

The user guide has more information about how to use VisualEditor.

Since the last newsletter, the Editing Team has created new interfaces for the link and citation tools, as well as fixing many bugs and changing some elements of the design. Some of these bugs affected users of VisualEditor on mobile devices. Status reports are posted on The worklist for April through June is available in Phabricator.

A test of VisualEditor's effect on new editors at the English Wikipedia has just completed the first phase. During this test, half of newly registered editors had VisualEditor automatically enabled, and half did not. The main goal of the study is to learn which group was more likely to save an edit and to make productive, unreverted edits. Initial results will be posted at Meta later this month.

Recent improvements[edit]

Auto-fill features for citations are available at a few Wikipedias through the citoid service. Citoid takes a URL or DOI for a reliable source, and returns a pre-filled, pre-formatted bibliographic citation. If Citoid is enabled on your wiki, then the design of the citation workflow changed during May. All citations are now created inside a single tool. Inside that tool, choose the tab you want (<citoid-citeFromIDDialog-mode-auto>, <citoid-citeFromIDDialog-mode-manual>, or <citoid-citeFromIDDialog-mode-reuse>). The cite button is now labeled with the word "Cite" rather than a book icon, and the autofill citation dialog now has a more meaningful label, "<Citoid-citeFromIDDialog-lookup-button>", for the submit button.

The link tool has been redesigned based on feedback from Wikipedia editors and user testing. It now has two separate sections: one for links to articles and one for external links. When you select a link, its pop-up context menu shows the name of the linked page, a thumbnail image from the linked page, Wikidata's description, and/or appropriate icons for disambiguation pages, redirect pages and empty pages. Search results have been reduced to the first five pages. Several bugs were fixed, including a dark highlight that appeared over the first match in the link inspector (T98085).  

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The design of the main toolbar and several other elements have changed slightly, to be consistent with the MediaWiki theme. In the Vector skin, individual items in the menu are separated visually by pale gray bars. Buttons and menus on the toolbar can now contain both an icon and a text label, rather than just one or the other. This new design feature is being used for the cite button on wikis where the Citoid service is enabled.

The team has released a long-desired improvement to the handling of non-existent images. If a non-existent image is linked in an article, then it is now visible in VisualEditor and can be selected, edited, replaced, or removed.

Let's work together[edit]

  • Share your ideas and ask questions at mw:VisualEditor/Feedback.
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Subscribe, unsubscribe or change the page where this newsletter is delivered at Meta. If you aren't reading this in your favorite language, then please help us with translations! Subscribe to the Translators mailing list or contact us directly, so that we can notify you when the next issue is ready. Thank you! Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:31, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Indian Space Shuttle Programme[edit]

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Indian Space Shuttle Programme. Requesting you to add your opinion. Regards Thanks. M.srihari (talk) 07:09, 8 June 2015 (UTC)Srihari

Please comment on Talk:Pedro Nava (politician)[edit]

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Pedro Nava (politician). Legobot (talk) 00:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC) Tina Turner can there be a portal of Tina Turner — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:48, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


Hi there. I'd like to have a chat with you offline over the next day or so to understand a bit more about your DR style (I've done this with many a dispute resolution volunteer before, TransporterMan included). What timezone are you in? Steven Zhang Help resolve disputes! 16:05, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I see you've ignored this. Noted. Steven Zhang Help resolve disputes! 02:39, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
I didn't see this, because I was getting so many comments. I am in EST. I apologize. Do you want me to stop being a moderator, or do you want to offer me advice? Robert McClenon (talk) 13:43, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
Mostly offer advice :). From what I've seen you don't have email - so send me one - Steven Zhang Help resolve disputes! 14:26, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
I had email enabled, but it seems to have disabled itself. I am trying to get it re-enabled. I will send the email. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:39, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Your request re DRN Supercarrier edit[edit]

Robert you asked for a more detailed evaluation of your edit, so here it is. (Let me note to avoid an internal-copyvio issue that the italicized text below is taken from this edit by Robert McClenon.) Before starting, however, let me say in advance that I'm doing this at your request and as a courtesy to you (sideways as it may be), but I'm not going to debate it with you, though I am quite willing for you or other editors to comment upon what I say here as and to the degree that they may like:

  • There has been discussion on the article talk page, but nearly all of it was a week ago. I suggest that the editors go back to the talk page and see if discussion works.
If the discussion was a month old then I might well have agreed with this assessment, but a week is nothing in Wiki-time. Also, I wouldn't have disagreed if you had said something like, "There was discussion on this a week or so ago and it seemed to be progressing nicely, I'm going to close this and suggest that you try to revive that discussion. If you can't, feel free to come back here." (That is, Robert, if it was progressing nicely; I'm not saying here that it was, just giving a possible example of something I could have agreed with.) If it had been a month old, then I might have closed the case for lack of recent extensive discussion, but again a week (or actually 11 days in this case), is nothing.
  • I see that one of the editors does not think that this case should be accepted, but doesn't say why.
He most definitely says why: that in his opinion there's a black-and-white, absolutley-correct outcome and that we shouldn't even consider taking the case for that reason. Now, of course, we don't generally do that, but there is no question that it has been done in the form of rendering a neutral opinion (much like 3O) and immediately closing the case as resolved (due to the fact that there is no possible other outcome). That's procedurally different than just refusing the case, but has the same practical result. I have no idea whether or not he was right because I haven't looked at the facts or whether that would be a proper handling of the case. But your saying that he hasn't said why is factually wrong and unnecessarily confrontational.
  • Participation in this noticeboard is voluntary, but saying that one doesn't want to participate, without saying why, isn't helpful.
First, he hasn't said that he doesn't want to participate, he's said that he thinks that it shouldn't be accepted; he may very well be willing to participate when he sees that the case will be opened. Second, no editor is required to say why they don't want to participate and to say that isn't helpful is, once again, factually wrong and insulting, especially when snarkily said that it "isn't helpful."
  • I also see that there are multiple comments on contributors. Regardless of how dispute resolution proceeds for this article, the editors need to learn to comment on content rather than contributors.
My principal objection here is on the "need to" phraseology. Telling people that they need to learn is just a backwards way of saying that they're stupid or ignorant and is a direct insult. As has been discussed over at the DRN talk page, any admonishment is fraught with problems of making the volunteer or DRN in general unwelcoming and potentially non-neutral, but that problem is there even more so when you insult people as well. I also object to giving any conduct admonishment at all at this point in the case since the conduct allegations are very minor and just in passing, though I probably wouldn't have complained you doing that if that was all that was here and had been expressed in a non-insulting manner.

You asked, and so I've set it out chapter and verse, more directly — and forthrightly — than I might have if you hadn't asked. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:31, 11 June 2015 (UTC)


Thank you. I don't entirely agree, but I will review your criticisms and try to learn from them. (I do sort of feel that my less-than-ideal choice of words was rammed down my throat publicly on the DRN talk page, but I understand that you did what you had to do. I do feel that my mistakes have been less serious than those of some other volunteers, and that I have been chastised more severely than they, but that is my opinion.) Robert McClenon (talk) 16:46, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

For what it's worth...and I'm dealing with a fairly bad cold right now, so consider my judgment perhaps a bit some degree it seems to me that TM's concerns are not so much with what you said but rather the manner in which you said it. On the one hand that's a good thing, since it means that the underlying thrust of your points is reasonable. OTOH, Dispute Resolution in particular is all about diplomacy, and as coordinators, how we say things can have a disproportionate impact on the course of a case. I'm reminded of a non-wiki incident in which an argument ensued after I told someone "you're acting like an asshole" and they took it as "you are an asshole". Semantics really is the devil's business.
After re-reading, I'm feeling a bit less confident of my own assessment, so I'll leave it at this: I hope my observation didn't ruffle anyone's feathers, and if you see this TM, I'm certainly not out to misrepresent you in any manner, and Robert, my advice would boil down to...try to err more on the side of the velvet glove than the iron fist. Hope this helps! DonIago (talk) 18:31, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
Robert, I would say you always have the best of intentions and your efforts are always in good faith. I also give you high praise for being able to listen to feedback from other editors when you've bumped your head so to speak. I think that T-man has come on a bit strong because this one post is indicative of your general approach to the dispute resolution participants which tends to be harsh and administrative rather than understanding and helpful. When I look at your DRN cases it appears that you are just going through the motions and are looking for ways to dispose of the case rather than building trust, cooperation and consensus. You also seem to approach DRN as if it was ANI focusing almost exclusively on behavior. In addition you disallow discussion by forcing the participants to comment only in their preassigned areas. You ask questions and then find fault with them or their answers. You take a tense situation and infuse it with further tension until the participants act up/act out or go away and then you close the case. You seem to feel that everything is black and white but that is not the case at DRN as mediation, consensus and resolution all have a thousand shades of gray. Resolution is only built via a painstaking process of very slow negotiation.
DRN cases are not administrated they are moderated and there is a big difference. A successful DRN wants to help other people who are in distress. Yes, some small amount of occasional discipline is required but patience, flexibility and compassion are the primary qualities of a good DRN moderator.
I'm also concerned about the effect you are having on new volunteers at DRN. I see your policeman's mentality rubbing off on the newbies and you unintentionally chased away a new DRN volunteer when you elbowed them out of their first DRN case.
Finally.....everyone is different. We all have different skills and different aptitudes. I know that you are an ArbCom clerk, and though I have not looked at any of your ArbCom work, I'll bet you are very good at it because it's almost purely an administrative role that sets up and maintains boundaries for the participants. So if you don't have the patience for the nitty gritty of herding a bunch of cats who don't like each other than DRN may not be the thing for you. And there is no shame in that because you have many other skills and talents that are needed on this vast project. You are welcome at DRN but you will need to really focus on and develop your mediation skills if you want to make a real contribution there and avoid threads like this one. I wish you well and sincerely thank you for your good faith contributions to our project. Best wishes, -- KeithbobTalk 21:48, 11 June 2015 (UTC)-- KeithbobTalk 21:57, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
Hearing what all of you say, your comments really have to do with comments on cases that haven't yet been opened, or with the talk page. I think that if you look over my handling of cases that I have accepted, you will see that they have gone more smoothly than this recent episode. Thank you. I still really do think that some (not all) of you have been too harsh with me. I have from time to time asked for feedback, and generally I haven't gotten it until now I get dumped on. Oh well. More later. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:11, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
Hi Robert, In my comments I was referring to past cases that you have moderated and then closed. I'm sorry that you are feeling dumped on. If I was in your shoes I would probably feel the same way. I hope that over time these exchanges turn out to be helpful rather than hurtful. Best, -- KeithbobTalk 02:37, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Not Okay[edit]

A kitten for you![edit]


For being a polite and helpful

Crazyseiko (talk) 18:21, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Typhoon RCS Synthesis Debate[edit]

Hi Robert, as you know I'm currently involved in a synthesis debate over on the original research noticeboard. However I've since discovered that the first source already makes the point I'm being accused of sythesising.[1] because it already states composite percentage as a reason for the Typhoon's lower RCS, therefore any mention of composite percentage thereafter can't possibly be synthesis because the point was already made in that source. However I feel I'm being drowned out without getting a fair hearing and nobody is really using the actual policy to support their opinion and I'm having to defeat the same claims over and over again because nobody is reading (except me) but everybody is writing, is it possible for you to actually get someone who understand policy to look at this? Thanks.Z07x10 (talk) 19:07, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Part of the problem is that your posts are too long, and very long posts are too long, didn't read. If one of the sources actually makes exactly that point, then make that statement concisely. If you have to introduce a new level 4 break, do that. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:16, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
Okay thanks I will try but I put the point in bold several times already, I feel I'm just banging my head against a wall.Z07x10 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
At this point, the issue that you need to address is not so much whether you are engaged in synthesis, but whether the source that engaged in synthesis is a reliable source. I can see that it looks to you like they are moving the goalposts, but the underlying issue is whether a reliable source has provided the information. There is a distinction without a difference between whether you engaged in synthesis or whether an unreliable source engaged in synthesis. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:38, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
Given their credentials and partner network, they look a long way from an unreliable source and the statement is partially backed up by another source I cannot help but feel that the complainants just dislike the edit and are scrabbling around for any reason they can find to disallow it. They tried OR synthesis, failed, and then moved on to unreliable source synthesis but there is no evidence of them being unreliable. This seems like an endless tail chase here, maybe they should just WP:DTS until they can come up with more than mere unfounded opinion.Z07x10 (talk) 09:30, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
Whatever the reliability of the source, this is no longer a synthesis issue. The policies make no mention of source reliability as a synthesis issue nor synthesis as a source reliability issue. (talk) 09:34, 14 June 2015 (UTC)


Mediation Bot issue, my second attempt still seems to have failed too. Don't know what's up. (talk) 12:32, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Additional help needed[edit]

Sorry Robert McClenon but I didn't 100% understood what should I do based on your recommendation on article talk Minority language (maybe it is because of the language or something). Does it mean I should make new RfC for the same issue/page since I done it before HERE or should I post my question on some other centralized place again? Have a nice day.--MirkoS18 (talk) 04:16, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Help: do you know how to report this?[edit]

I've got a puppet issue at an AfD. The user's account was created to vote on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jun Hong Lu. Do you know how I report it? I have no evidence it is specifically a sock, although the user they are meat/sock for has a history of blatantly ignoring Wiki rules. Ogress smash! 05:12, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Sockpuppets may be reported at WP:SPI. Hope this helps! DonIago (talk) 05:58, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

DRN:Shang dynasty[edit]

Hey Robert McClenon,

I am also a participant in the conversation and yet the filing author has not included me in Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Talk:Shang dynasty#Language. I'm not sure how to address this because I have definitely not agreed with the filing author. Ogress smash! 20:27, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Just add your information to the case header. However, I will do it for you. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:30, 15 June 2015 (UTC)


Can I ask why you keep to referring to 'language' in this dispute? It clearly is a dispute over whether content on a specific subject (namely a comparison of Eurofighter and Rafale RCS's) should be included in the article, rather than an issue of exact wording, and I suspect that people may find your references to 'language' confusing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:05, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

You have a point. I agree that the question is whether to include a particular paragraph. However, I think that we both agree that the real question is whether to include the comparison at all. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:07, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
If you wish to propose an alternate question, feel free to do so at Talk:Eurofighter Typhoon. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:11, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Can you clarify your position re the Eurofighter debate?[edit]

From your posts at Talk:Eurofighter, I get the impression that you are trying to 'moderate' the discussion. Can you clarify whether that is your intent? I ask because as far as I'm aware, DRN volunteers have no mandate beyond the noticeboard, and because Z07x10 keeps citing your opinion as if it was some kind of decision. This is clearly unhelpful. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:39, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Arbitration case opening[edit]

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Technical 13. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Technical 13/Evidence. Please add your evidence by June 30, 2015, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Technical 13/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, Liz Read! Talk! 01:49, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Religion in infoboxes of nations[edit]

There is an RfC that you may be interested in at Template talk:Infobox country#RfC: Religion in infoboxes of nations. Please join us and help us to determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:32, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Request for mediation rejected[edit]

The request for formal mediation concerning Eurofighter Typhoon 2, to which you were listed as a party, has been declined. To read an explanation by the Mediation Committee for the rejection of this request, see the mediation request page, which will be deleted by an administrator after a reasonable time. Please direct questions relating to this request to the Chairman of the Committee, or to the mailing list. For more information on forms of dispute resolution, other than formal mediation, that are available, see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution.

For the Mediation Committee, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:23, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Closure of RFC at tree of life[edit]

Hi Robert, I agree with you on your closure of the RFC. I had meant to remove the RFC template when it became clear the question was more complex than I initially thought. Would you object to the discussion being re-opened with the RFC tag removed? SPACKlick (talk) 16:14, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Go ahead somehow. The RFC tag has already been removed by the bot. Why don't I remove the box and strike but not delete the closure language? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:18, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. Cheers SPACKlick (talk) 16:21, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Request for mediation rejected[edit]

The request for formal mediation concerning Eurofighter Typhoon 2, to which you were listed as a party, has been declined. To read an explanation by the Mediation Committee for the rejection of this request, see the mediation request page, which will be deleted by an administrator after a reasonable time. Please direct questions relating to this request to the Chairman of the Committee, or to the mailing list. For more information on forms of dispute resolution, other than formal mediation, that are available, see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution.

For the Mediation Committee, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:12, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
(Delivered by MediationBot, on behalf of the Mediation Committee.)

Suggestion re 3O[edit]

Robert, this is just a suggestion and not, in any sense whatsoever, a complaint or criticism, take it or leave it as you see fit. About this edit: I see a distinction between a request in which there are too many editors involved in a discussion before they come to 3O (which should cause the request to be closed because it was improperly made) and a request in which at the time of making the request there are only two and a third one comes along after the request has been made (which should cause the request to be closed because a 3O has been given), which appeared to be what happened when 3family6 edited at 17:18 UTC after the request was made at 14:08 UTC. That's true whether the later participant in the discussion, 3family6 in this case, edited it because s/he was responding to the request made at 3O or whether they just happened to wander in or showed up in response to an inquiry made at a wikiproject or whatever; a third opinion given like that both is and is not a Third Opinion (I call this the Third Opinion Paradox). If it's the former, where there are too many editors to begin with, I'll close a case with much the same edit comment that you did, but if it's the latter, I'll close it with an edit comment which says, "Closing [[Baltimora]], 3O given by 3family6; # remain on list". That makes it clearer to anyone who looks why you've done what you did. Having said all of that, let me return to the situation where there are already more than two users involved in the dispute at the time the application is made. If you'll look back through the 3O Talk Page archives, you'll find that there is a good deal of sentiment that the 2-editor requirement should not be enforced too strictly. (How do I know? When I was a newcomer to 3O I removed cases from the list for that reason and was criticized for it.) I now will not generally remove cases for having more than 2 editors unless there are at least 5, or occasionally 4 (especially if they have multiple, differing positions), editors involved in the dispute. In the Baltimora case, of course, there were only two (Rhododendrites was there acting as a peacemaker and had not become actively involved in the actual dispute, so didn't count) until 3family6 came along. That's just what I do and, as I began, you're free to take it or leave it. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:34, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I will review and learn. Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:45, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I didn't get a chance[edit]

Hello Robert McClenon. I didn't get a chance to post my reply to the dispute resolution page. I just went to do it now and I saw that you'd already started the RFC! (I figured I would have up to 24 hours to reply.) Since Onel5969 got to reply it seems only fair that I should get to reply too. I have my reply saved in a file; is there someplace I could post it so you and Onel5969 and anyone else who is interested could at least read it?

I've read the three choices in the RFC and I really like "B." Can I vote or am I ineligible because I'm one of the original participants in the dispute? If I am allowed to vote, do I simply add a line or two to the Survey section (my choice with a very brief reason)?

Richard27182 (talk) 04:57, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I was wondering if, given that this is a technical issue, would it be appropriate to add the RFC to the Maths, science, and technology list also?
Richard27182 (talk) 05:14, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, I will add sci to the bot tag, and ANYONE can express an opinion on an RFC. That is, an RFC is open to all editors in the Wikipedia community. That is what it is. Maybe you didn't know that. Now you do. Go ahead and express an opinion. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:45, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


Hello. Thank you for your reply, I guess your a bit miffed with my comment about Admin broad. For the record, six years without having to go thought this process, I would say is good. "content is dealt with by consensus" You can clearly see no one wants to do that, no one has yet to explain or ruff buff my two biggest points, That being does the page come under " To much detail" and worse still the lack of any Ref, IF there were at least some communication I could expect but no one want say anything. Thankful you have given a useful tip where my next step should be, and Yes I would like a Request for Comments to ask for community participation on whether to remove the identification of the killer, or if such information does cover To much details and lack of refs. I would believe I would better off waiting until tomorrow before processing.--Crazyseiko (talk) 16:18, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

hi thanks for the further reply, yes I would like to "Request for Comments" thanks --Crazyseiko (talk) 20:54, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


Hello RM. This edit, by a newbie, refactored an edit by the IP. Now they are probably the same person and it looks likely that they don't know how things work. Also I didn't want to make a big deal about it at the DR page so I thought I'd let you decide how to proceed. You might have already seen this but I thought I'd let you know just in case. Cheers to ya. MarnetteD|Talk 21:33, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I am assuming that they are the same person, since I advised the IP to register an account in order to get the privilege of creating an AFD subpage. My own thought is to ignore it, and to let the DRN coordinator decide whether to close the thread. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:10, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
Sounds good. Enjoy the week ahead. MarnetteD|Talk 22:13, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
You are correct, same person, and you're correct that I'm new and still getting the hang of things. Thanks! 217IP (talk) 22:37, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Protected Page[edit]

Hi Robert - the Zulu_(musician) musician page is protected now, but I think the WP:COI and WP:NMUSIC banners should still really be on the article. I plan on adding it to AFD after the protection is gone next week, but I think drawing discussion towards this for the next week is worthwhile too. 217IP (talk) 22:41, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Question about Wasteland RFC[edit]

Hello @Robert McClenon:  We don't seem to be getting much response to the Wanderer of the Wasteland RFC.  I know it's on three lists; but is there anything else we can do to call attention to it?  I was reading the Wikipedia RFC page and it mentions that when there aren't enough editors to get sufficient input, the RFC may be publicized by posting a notice at certain locations.  Would this be appropriate?  And if so, who would be the proper person to do it?  Thank you.
Richard27182 (talk) 21:19, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

First, I am not surprised that there isn't a whole lot of response yet. The RFC has only been running two days. As you may know, I posted it to two WikiProjects and to the Technicolor talk page. I don't think that we need to be in a hurry to get responses. However, one possibility would be the Village pump (miscellaneous). You ask who should post the notice. Anyone may post the notice, provided that the posting is neutrally worded. That is, don't argue the RFC at a posting location. (Argument can be in the RFC discussion itself.) Also, don't select editors based on what you think they think. That would violate the guideline against canvassing. I would try Village Pump (miscellaneous). Robert McClenon (talk) 00:58, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Hello Robert McClenon.
      And thank you for your reply.  (It was probably unnecessary at best and inappropriate at worst for me to have "pinged" you when I wrote last time.  Sorry about that.  I remember someone telling me that there's no reason to ping someone when you post on their own talk page.  Anyway, I'm still learning and sometimes I forget.)
      Although I didn't mention it in my message, one of the things I was wondering about was timing; I really had no idea of how quickly these RFC things are supposed to build up responses.  But if you feel that the response rate so far is typical, then I won't worry about it for now.
      If the response rate does become unexpectedly low, then I think I will follow your advice and post to the Village pump (miscellaneous).  When the time comes, would it be OK if I show you a proposed copy of the posting before I post it, just to make sure it's done properly?  Also I'm not clear on the whole concept of selecting editors; but I won't worry about that until if and when it gets to that point.
      Well, I guess that's all for now.  I think I'll just give it some time and see what the response rate is over the next several days or week or so.  Thank you for your help and advice.
Richard27182 (talk) 04:50, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
That's more or less the way it is. Don't push an RFC at editors; it annoys them. Thank you for trying to understand how Wikipedia is. Again, thank you for trying to work within Wikipedia. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:54, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Removed my question from[edit]


Since I started the thread by submitting my question, and since the question had been answered, and since Wikipedia encourages initiative so as to minimize its maintenance, I took it upon myself to remove the thread. I didn't intend to ruffle anyone's feathers.

And who do you think you are? I don't appreciate your pedantic "content removal does not appear constructive" castigation. After all, isn't it true that no one "owns" Wikipedia, not you, not even Jimmy Wales. So kindly lighten up. You are not a Wikipedia-cop. --MarkFilipak (talk) 16:18, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

The Help Desk is archived. The removal of a question prevents its archival, and therefore makes it harder to find a question that was asked and answered. You may not have known that questions are not supposed to be removed because they are asked and answered. I will inquire as to correctness, but for now I stand as to saying that you should not have removed a question. Other editors might have had other comments to add. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:00, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Posts should not be removed from the Help Desk because they have been answered. You meant to be helpful but were being unhelpful. My reply to you was harsh, and I regret that it was harsh. You may not have known that posts should not be removed just because they have been answered. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:45, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Economy of Argentina[edit]

The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Economy of Argentina. Legobot (talk) 00:01, 24 June 2015 (UTC)


Probably best to keep other admins in the loop, as my involvement was more of along the lines of drive by assistance. I'm not much for long term involvement in these matters if I can help it, although if need be I will assist. Best keep those at WP:AN or WP:AN/I appraised of the situation, the admins over there tend to dabble in this area much more so than I. TomStar81 (Talk) 20:06, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Request monitoring of page Popular Front of India[edit]

Saw the WP message, thanks Robert. Ask the WP admins to take stock of the history of NPOV and unjustified revert. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Huhshyeh (talkcontribs) 06:24, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

You are at the edge[edit]

Hi Robert, As I've said before I know that your intentions on WP and at DRN are good. However, your performance is lacking and this has been pointed out to you by at least three people. I have no special authority at DRN but I think the time may be nearing when one of the editors from DRN (and it could be me) begins a discussion thread suggesting that you move on to other activities on WP and not participate at DRN because your participation is disruptive more than it is helpful. In my opinion we are at the edge of that right now. You have gotten feedback on several occasions about making condescending remarks and judgements about editors and their behavior and yet you are still making posts like these that focus on editor behavior [bold added]:

  1. This isn't directly relevant to this forum. However, in case anyone is interested, User:Z07x10, who wanted to add a paragraph to the Eurofighter Typhoon that other editors did not want, has now been banned, among other things for conduct toward other editors that took on the nature of vandalism. This has nothing to do with how we do dispute resolution, except to point out that some editors who come here are very difficult, and there isn't always anything that we can do about them. Robert McClenon (talk) 6:23 pm, 20 June 2015, last Saturday (6 days ago) (UTC−5)
  2. There has been extended discussion at the article talk page, and some edit-warring. The editors have also included an unregistered editor. I am neither accepting nor declining this case. Robert McClenon (talk) 4:22 pm, 23 June 2015, last Tuesday (3 days ago) (UTC−5)
  3. There has been discussion at the article talk page, but it has not been extensive (or civil). I am neither accepting nor declining this case, but I would suggest that there should be further civil discussion at the talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 1:15 pm, Yesterday (UTC−5)

DRN is a content only forum and we tell the participants not to bring up behavior issues and yet you bring up behavior time after time, even before the case opens. This is not good and needs to be corrected immediately. Thank you.-- KeithbobTalk 16:58, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Okay. I will take your comments into account. Perhaps what I should do is to avoid making volunteer comments on new cases. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:04, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Hi Robert, I dearly hope this doesn't come off as condescending...I don't have the amount of time I'd like to devote to DRN, but if there are times when you're considering speaking up but aren't sure whether your comments would be taken well, I've got a BA in English Writing and decent amounts of experience here and would be happy to screen your messages in advance and offer suggestions. Again, sorry if it sounds like I'm being patronizing here, just offering whatever insight I might have and trying to help. Lord knows I think DRN in general could benefit from some sort of mentoring program. FWIW I think Keith came across a little harshly, but I also see his point. Best wishes, regardless. DonIago (talk) 17:23, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
On the one hand, I agree with User:Doniago that User:Doniago is meaning well and is being condescending. The reason why I have been commenting on threads is that no one else has, and it would take longer to get him to review my posts. Thank you anyway. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:42, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
He is right that User:Keithbob came across as harsh, but that is for the same reason that my comments have come across as harsh. He just said what he wanted to say. I will use better judgment in commenting on new threads. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:42, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I will note that my comment about the unregistered editor was not meant to disparage the unregistered editor, but to point out that the filer had not identified the unregistered editor as a party. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:42, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Richard27182 checking in with some questions[edit]

Hello Robert McClenon.
       Please forgive me if this message might be just a little premature. And if I am premature, please feel free to suggest that I hold off for a certain number of days before acting on any suggestions you might make in your reply.
       The Technicolor terminology RFC (Re: Wanderer of the Wasteland) has been active for a week now and has received just three votes (not counting mine and Onel5969's).  Is this about what would be expected; or is it getting to be time to take more action to publicize it?  And if so, which route(s) would you suggest?  You've previously mentioned the Village Pump.  If I prepare a posting for that, would you be willing to take a quick look at it before I post it just to make sure it's worded appropriately?
       I've also been reading about Feedback request service.  Would that also be an appropriate way to go?  And if so, how do I do it?  Do I just send individual, brief, unbiased messages to editors chosen randomly from the appropriate list(s), or is it done some other way.
       I hope my questions are not a burden; and I very much appreciate your help and guidance. I know it's very easy for a novice like me to make a serious faux pas, and I really want to avoid that as much as possible. Thank you again for your help.
Richard27182 (talk) 07:56, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Just checking in[edit]

Hi Robert McClenon. I haven't heard from you in a while; just thought I'd check in.
Richard27182 (talk) 21:19, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

My own advice is that, for an RFC about an article of relatively marginal interest, you are likely not to get much participation. My advice would be to leave it alone for a while. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:29, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Hi Robert McClenon.  OK, I'll do that.  But please give me an idea of what you mean by "a while."  A few days, a week, a couple weeks?  Also, is there some point in time when the RFC will automatically close or expire or anything like that?  I really do appreciate your help.
Richard27182 (talk) 23:06, 29 June 2015 (UTC)