User talk:Sannse/Archive 2

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January 2004 - June 2004

Greetings Sannse. Encouraged by your words from your user page about contributing photos to Wikipedia I've recently added one of my own photos for the article about Chuksha. I admit the photo is not perfect, since it was photographed during the late winter afternoon, but I guess it is better worse homegrown one, than of the "fair use" as you've written. I shall take some of daily ones and resend them over the existing. I hope that I've met at least sufficiently high criterion with my action. But if the photos are not suitable for the Wikipedia - they can be removed or changed easily. Best regards. --XJamRastafire 22:24, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Looks good! I'm always pleased to see imaged added to articles, especially ones taken by Wikipedians and even more so when they are of dogs :) I've lightened the image slightly, I can revert if you don't feel it's an improvement. I'm still very much learning how to take photos, but I'm pleased with some of them - it's fun to do isn't it? I've been trying to get some pictures of birds too, but so far without success. I haven't really got the right equipment. Anyway, good work and I'm glad you took my thoughts on home-grown images to heart. Regards -- sannse 12:15, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for mediation

Hi. Look what I did! Don't be mad, k? I figured it was better than nothing, and Ed told me to take my problems there, so... let me know what you think? JackLynch 12:48, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Reply on User talk:JackLynch

Hello :-) please read this [1]. Thanks Anthere

Will do. Thanks Anthere -- sannse 20:41, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

--- Wikipedia:Requests for mediation

I object strongly to your changes. You can review my objection on Wikipedia Talk:Requests for mediation Jack 02:53, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I do not appreciate you chopping up my text and failing to sign your rude and confrontational post. Please review Wikipedia:Talk page. Jack 08:30, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Hello Jack. I have replied on Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation hopefully that will clarify things a little. Just to repeat - the post you mention was from Anthere rather than me, I'm sure she didn't mean to sound rude or confrontational, I certainly don't read it as such. I hope my reply helps, please let me know if not and please believe me that my intention is not to offend in any way, so I'm sure we can sort any misunderstandings between us. Regards -- sannse 11:41, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, I sincerely apologise. I admit I am rather thinned skinned on this whole subject. IMO the wiki should have had a fair and effective plan for resolving user conflicts long ago, and my bad experiences with wikipedia:conflicts between users made me perhaps overly hopeful that things would be sunshine and roses with the new wikipedia:requests for mediation I created. When it became clear that said mediators were less than enthusiastic (worrying I might be a bnned user, for example!) I became rather more irritable than would have been perfectly compatable with mediation, I will admit. In any case, thank you for your kind replies. Jack 02:18, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

wikipedia:Requests for mediation

"unless you feel you can make a true and heartfelt commitment to mediation" I don't understand where your going with this statement. What have I not done? What should I be doing? Are you speaking for the mediation commitee? Should I contact an arbitrator? This process needs alot of work :) Jack 10:40, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Hello Jack. You said: "I am simply attempting to fulfil the formalities of the conflict resolution process so that I can seek binding arbitration." I feel that rather than seeing mediation as a set of formalities to get through on the road to arbitration it needs to be seen as a genuine attempt by all parties to find a solution. If you can enter into mediation with a real will to make it work and a willingness to try and find a solution then maybe it can be successful. If you are going through the motions in order to get to a goal of arbitration, then I don't think it will work. And above all I want mediation to work :)
I think there are two options here. If you feel that mediation is something you want to try - not as a formality but with real intent to make it work - then the next step is for you to tell LordKenneth that and to ask him to join you in seeking mediation. If you don't want to enter into mediation then I think you should approach the arbitration committee. (I'm not sure what stage they are at in setting up yet, so they may not be ready to take the case). I would guess that the arbitration committee will see it as a point against you if you have not made an attempt at mediation, just as they would see it as a point against the other party if they refused to try to talk things out. But that's just a guess based on how I would see things if I were in that committee, it's not a statement of their policy (I don't know their policy and am not sure if they do yet!)
Just to clarify. I'm speaking here as a member of the committee but not for the committee. At the moment the committee is a loose collection of interested wikipedians appointed by Jimbo. We are in discussion about the best ways to mediate, but at this stage we are working somewhat independently. Regards -- sannse 17:30, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I am attempting to comply with your request. Jack 22:46, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Hallo Sannse! beautifull butterfly image. I work on small critters in the ocean, you can see some of the macro images from my user page. I have depression too and wiki helps me to get back on doing things again. Please see my note on the admin req page - keep up with the good work and thanks for the help in admin - Professor Dr. habil Uwe Kils 21:44, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Hello Kils. I'm sorry to hear you suffer from depression too, it's a difficult and unpleasant illness I know. I presume the note you refer to was the correction of my mistaken count of "support" - I've fixed that now, many apologies for the mistake. Thanks for the complements and for the generously polite message - especially in light of my opposition to your request for re-adminship (and my anonymity!). Regards -- sannse 18:08, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Hallo Sannse! No, I meant the comment to the sysop. I do not care much about adminship, spent my time anyway more on editing (as you can see when I was a sysop once). It was a bet I lost in the Vikings experiment, which holds over 28 people of all ages and many professions (including two sysops). I expected to become not one "support" and was surprised to see two. I am not mad of you or any other sysops. I never cut away any besides our own stuff and discussion pages, because some children wrote there with their full name. I want to work only as contributor. Good content stays forever (hopefully), sysops disappear in the fog after a while. We had one of the very first wikis on the web, and is from one of my former students. wikipedia is a wiki with mostly anonymous sysops and we take it for such. This will however prevent it from raising noteworthy donations, I fear. Donators are very carefull on what links to their name, and philanthropy has something to do with names. In every author is visible, and dozens of donators knocked on the doors to get in. Consider us as wiki tester (I am probably more than twice your age) Good luck to you! Kils 22:12, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
here is a litle present to you which I made when I was young media:albaa.jpg
Thank you for the picture Kils. -- sannse 23:42, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Can you please delete the request - thank you - Uwe Kils 04:04, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Done -- sannse 18:19, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Thank you, Sannse, and have fun with your aquarium. I am a fisheries biologist and hope to see some nice image from you of Tanichthys albonubes, also in fishbase they could use another better image. Can you please help me in understanding something: Why are so many working in wikipedia without writing their name. Is there any advantage of it? Any source of knowledge is only as good as the people who make it and give their name for it. Good luck - Uwe Kils 18:44, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I've not got any good photos yet, I need to read up about the best way to take fishy pictures. But when I do I will add them here and, of course, they will be licensed under GDFL so available for fishbase or anyone else :)
About anonymity - the first thing I would say is that I disagree with your view that real identities are necessary in making a good source of knowledge. What would my name tell you about my knowledge of the Grammy Awards for example? I have no qualifications or reputation in this field, just an interest in increasing the quality of the information about them on the 'pedia. My reputation is built up from my contributions - and that reputation is built around my constant identity as "sannse". Knowing my real name would not give you any more information about my ability to edit the encyclopaedia, especially as I don't edit in my professional field.
As to reasons, I can only speak of my own. I use a pseudonym for privacy and for my own feeling of security. I understand that that security is minimal, my real name is probably not that difficult to find, but I trust in the respect (and disinterest) of others to give me that minimal privacy. This is especially important to me because I talk of things on-line that I do not wish to discuss publicly in the 3D world (occasionally on Wikipedia but more so in other on-line settings). With anonymity I can have the confidence and courage to speak freely about personal and difficult subjects. I sometimes feel "sannse" is more truly my identity that the one I use in the "real world".
I hope this helps. -- sannse 21:46, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Thank you very much - uwe Kils 22:08, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)


The fault is not with me, it is with Jack himself. HE is the one making biased and unfair changes. I don't see how I can mediate with him when he's the actual problem. But, what do you suggest? - Lord Kenneth 19:32, Jan 26, 2004 (UTC)

Reply at User talk:Lord Kenneth

Hi, is there some sort of clash between tables and the new image markup? The image on American Cocker Spaniel seems to have got squashed over a bit with your change. I am guessing that the image width is somehow not influencing the table width as it should. What do you think? -- sannse 17:14, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Re images: I saw that, but I figured it was my browser bumping against the new code; I'd left the center tag in the table as before. I'm not really sure what's going on there. - Hephaestos 17:18, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It sort of works with the table set at 270px width, but still doesn't quite look right - I'll keep fiddling -- sannse 17:29, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I think images look better in a taxobox if you use "none", rather than "thumb" and specify the size. WormRunner 17:38, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Aha! Thanks, I'll try that. Didn't know that was an option. - Hephaestos 17:39, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hi Sannse, I noticed your remark in the villahe pump, where can i find the syntax of this new markup? TeunSpaans

Hi TeunSpaans. The table markup is here and the new image markup is here. -- sannse 11:52, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Thx! TeunSpaans 12:09, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) (now i no longer search in vain why my colspan didnt work :; )

You probably already noticed, but just in case you didn't, I just put a firm opinion on listing all possible breeds of dogs in List of dog breeds. I won't do anything rash until there's been some discussion and/or I know I won't get my nose tweaked. :-) Elf 05:06, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Elf, I saw. Don't worry your nose is safe ;) I'll answer over there. Regards -- sannse 10:04, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Please check Dog show and Newfoundland. I added an entry to the current news page referring to the Newfie that just won Westminster, so I tried to fill in the Dog Show stub and I'm afraid that I'm a complete novice at how dog shows really work, so I hope I didn't get the info way wrong. Also reformatted newfie with the new table from your snadbox; added links to AKC and FCI standards, but after finding everything else for all of this, 2 hrs later, I have to quit and get back to work so I haven't filled in more info about the Newfie. Elf 18:25, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

P.S. To clarify, I'm not asking you to fill in missing info--just to make sure I didn't add any incorrect info or nonstandard table format and so on. You seem the best person to ask at the moment. :-) Elf 20:08, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hi Elf. I'm not knowledgeable about how dog shows work either I'm afraid. My only experience of them is going to them to take photos for Wikipedia. As I understand it though, in England a dog has to win three challenge certificates from three different judges to become a champion (I met someone whose dog had just won it's third). I'm not sure of the exact criteria for winning challenge certificates though - I believe they can only be gained at championship shows, not open shows, and I think a dog only has to be best of breed rather than best in show - but I really am not sure and not sure how different it is elsewhere.
I made a couple of minor changes to the Newfoundland table but left the missing info for you. Let me know if there were any bits you couldn't find - I have a list off-line with all the info for tables for all the recognised breeds. Acually, I can send you a copy if you would find it useful, let me know and I can e-mail it to you (it would be as an excel spreadsheet).
I've been rather distracted with Grammy Award pages (and real life stuff) but hope to help out more on the dog stuff soon - It's great to see it progressing :) -- sannse 23:17, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up on my user talk pg; usually I Watch pages where I've left comments, like this, but I guess I didn't this time around! I'd love to have a copy of your spreadsheet. Like you, don't know how much time I'll have to work on it--did a wee bit on Saarlooswolfhond the other day but was too lazy to go into the other room to get my books to fill it in more. And negotiating some of those breed standard sites is tedious!
Also--I figured, foolishly, that show-dog shows worked the same way everywhere--I don't know why, since i know perfectly well that obedience and agility are very different between, say, U.S. and U.K. Guess I'll have to find my own subject-matter expert. I certainly know enough people who show their dogs. Elf 01:40, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hi Elf. I should probably do what many do and reply on peoples talk pages - I just hate splitting conversations in that way so usually rely on people using watch lists. But anyway... I've mailed you with my address. I can't send the file via the Wikipedia mailing system but if you reply I can mail it to you direct. You might also want to know there is a list of photos without articles on User:Sannse/Dogs (User:Sannse/Dogs (full view) is the image intensive version) maybe you will be able to find homes for a couple as you work :). Talk later -- sannse 12:12, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Responded to your email. Had already looked at photos; you've been busy! Elf 14:16, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Actually, I think I messed up, either in the reading or the placement of my comments... In any case, I'm going to refactor and update AFAIK the Wikipedia:Requests for mediation page. Tuf-Kat 06:08, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the Wikipedia:WikiMoney. I appreciate it. -- Rbellin 23:30, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You're most welcome :) -- sannse 11:03, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Two pictures (not very good, but in the first case, there was not enough light, and in second, the puppies did not want to stand still :-)), but I actually took them thinking of you.

ChiotHuskie.jpg Huskie.jpg


Thank you for the pictures, they are lovely. And thank you for for thinking of me too. Best wishes -- sannse (talk) 11:12, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)


I added stuff to Welsh Corgi. I suppose they ought to be broken out into separate entries for Pembroke Welsh Corgi and Cardigan Welsh Corgi but most of the breed standards seem to list them as Welsh Corgi (Cardigan) and Welsh Corgi (Pembroke). I think that the former ways are more likely to be the ones that people will type in, and it certainly flows better in text when talking about them, but I'm too wiped out to decide which shd be the main entry and which shd be the redirect. Do you have an opinion? Elf 01:58, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think that the main articles should be at Welsh Corgi (Cardigan) and Welsh Corgi (Pembroke), as you say, that's how most registries describe them. I think it's more consistent to use those titles and rely on the redirects to catch the times the other forms are used (which I agree work better in the text of articles).
It's good to see you adding your photos by the way, they look great!
--sannse (talk) 10:38, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Done. Re:photos: Thanks! And I'll add yours as I go; I have a list of what you had up here as of mid-Feb. Elf 16:46, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Dog project/FCI[edit]

Thanks for the explanation. I know that the main page isn't the perfect place to put "I don't know what the bejezus is going on" kinds of messages, but I also sort of figured you'd notice it and fix it. And you did! So not only are you all-seeing, you're all-knowing. And you do good photos. Candidate for godhood is likely to be next. Thanks again. Elf 16:26, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Nah, I've never been accused of being omni-benevolent so godhood is out of my reach - but thanks for kind words ;) I try to keep an eye on as many of the dog pages as I can, but if I miss anything that needs an answer don't hesitate to give me a kick. Regards -- sannse (talk) 20:26, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Photos: Yours are nice; good lighting and clear. I'd love to have photos of as many coat varieties as possible (preferably mixing some action or casual shots as well as formal--as in Border Collie (and actually I liked your BC head shot because it shows personality, but I guess we can't use *all* the photos, dangie)--so most of your "duplicates" have fallen into that goal. Have just a grand time mediating. Meanwhile, you want to give an opinion on Talk:List of historical animals and then get out quick before you get involved? :-) Elf | Talk 22:38, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Cool, pics man. I suffer from Manic depression, just dont let get to man. If you like to embroader, do it. My Shrink likes to say do what can to cure it.--Plato 00:38, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Plato (I'm not a man though ;) -- sannse (talk) 00:43, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sorry. opps.--Plato 05:38, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The message you missed on the board was one in which I replied in kind to your appreciation for my time and thanked you for helping clean up after the party. Bird 03:43, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

OK, Thanks Bird -- sannse (talk) 09:57, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Wow, thats weird. I'm not one to be Politically Correct, or overly sensitive, so I place a great deal of weight upon "the rather irrelevant fact that Adam has a male legal name and, apparently, a male physical body" And pretty much none upon anybodys non-factual preferences. I guess I'm a believer in objective reality, rather than subjective, but what can I say? Until I hear otherwise from Lir, I guess I won't be correcting anybody too agressively in regards to said persons gender. I do plan on asking Lir about it early and often however! ;) Sam Spade 21:06, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Well, I have no direct knowledge of Lir's legal name or physical gender - and see no real relevance of that to her participation on Wikipedia anyway. I just see it as more polite to respect her preference and her privacy :) -- sannse (talk) 17:28, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Wikimedia policy polls sound like a good idea... I'll pop on by tonight. Tuf-Kat 00:46, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)

Mediation: Only when I'm invited or requested. :) What's up? -SV(talk) 19:38, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I have time to participate today. I appreciate the consideration, Sannse. :) SV(talk) 20:25, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Mediation Board[edit]

Thanks for reminding mne to look at it. I thought it was dead, so I stopped reading it. I also thought the Medaition Coimmittee had disbanded... But I gues it's stoll in business. --Uncle Ed 01:12, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not really involved in Mediation anymore. LDan 23:16, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hi Sannse! I'll keep my eye open for a Jack Russell, but I'm not very good at dog breeds. You may end up with anything! Tannin

US dog registries[edit]

Well, huh, I've never heard of the others you mentioned but UKC is probably 2nd to AKC. Yeah, AKC is the most major one, so I agree let's not add the others to the table after all. I'll see what I can find out about the various ones & maybe come up with some standard verbiage. Elf | Talk 05:06, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What I've found out so far: UKC respected as a registry & definitely a legit organization, although there's some suspicion why people with AKC-recognized breeds would register w/UKC. Some excellent reasons; some bad reasons. National Dog Registry is for tattoos. Continental Kennel Club and National Kennel Club are "for puppy mills". Elf | Talk 20:34, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Welcome "back"! Elf | Talk 19:55, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thanks! :) -- sannse (talk) 22:03, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

As a German who has lived outside of Germany for most of the last 14 years, I am concerned by what I perceive as a recently increasing anti-German bias in particularly US mass media, signified by the shift from depicturing the de-nazification of West Germany as marking discontinuity with the Third Reich, to today increasing emphasize on the perceived similarities between Nazi Germany and the present-day republic (or, maybe, the similarities between the Germans of past times and the Germans of today).

I have since months considered to write wikipedia articles on matters such as Germanness and who's "a German" but my lacking mastery of the English language, the topic's sensitivness among Germans and German speakers, the differences in the understanding of nationality and ethnicity between what I'm used to, what I have learned when living in France, and what I perceive as the norm in the English speaking world, holds me back.

In any case, I would like to ask you to hold this in mind when upgrading links from the dis-ambiguation page [[German]] to other articles.

--Ruhrjung 09:54, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hello Ruhrjung. The decision whether to link to [[ethnic German|German]] or [[Germany|German]] is one I often find difficult, so I'd welcome your advice. I usually link to "Germany" in biographical entries unless there is something to make me think I should do otherwise ("Fred was a famous German artist who was born in France and lived all his life in America"). In a case such as that I would be more likely to link to "ethnic German". In entries where it's obviously referring to Germany as a nation ("German cars have been sold in England for 6000 years") then I link to "Germany". If the article is referring to the ethnic makeup of a country other than Germany then I link to "ethnic German". Historical articles are always difficult - I try to decide whether the people referred to are pre "Germany" and should be linked to something like "Germanic peoples".
Do you think all this is the right approach? Could you point me towards articles where I've got it wrong? That would help me learn where to make changes to my approach. Please feel free to correct any links I get wrong anytime. Many thanks -- sannse (talk) 10:59, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I suspect one ought to consider re-linking much of what now is linked to Germany to an article along the lines of User:Ruhrjung/Germans, which I started on now today. I would be eager for comments by non-Germans like you.

The main problem is the difference between the German nation and Germany in the meaning of the Federal Republic of Germany. In particularly when the temporal setting is historic, i.e. prior to 1948 — equating West Germany with the now united Germany may by some, chiefly from ex-East Germany, be considered problematic, but that's a problem of far lesser magnitude.

To boil it down: Before Anschluß, or before the Machtübernahme, being a German was more a belonging to German culture (expressed in German language), than a concept that had with states and Empires to do, and so it had been for hundreds of (maybe, some argue, a thousand) years. Wordly states and rulers were ephemeral, they came and went. Borders moved, and territorial belonging could change over the night without any particular consequences.

Austria and Germany are equally much inheritors to this Germany, although Austrians have their reasons to be happy with their dissociation, as the last world wars really gave Germans a bad name; which is justified if you ask me.
--Ruhrjung 14:04, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I think a page such as the one you've started would be a good idea. That would make linking easier and would also be very informative. Let me know when it goes live and I'll start linking to that rather than "Germany" -- sannse (talk) 18:39, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I just can't even care anymore. If the Wikipedia treats people with enough disrespect, eventually they lose respect for the wiki. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Well I don't know about your respect -- I don't know you. But there are too many Jtdirls, Wiks, Eriks, Mavs, Theresa's, and 172s running around swearing and insulting -- Im going to leave now, as you requested, but you people really gotta do something about the cabal. Lirath Q. Pynnor

I really doubt 172 will accept mediation. Lirath Q. Pynnor

remainder of conversation at User talk:Lir

Namesdays in Sweden

Hi Sannse! I effectively reverted the change you made to Namesdays in Sweden. The reason is that the names Karl and Viktoria, does not refer specifically to the King and the Crown princess. They do however carry the same names, albeit with slightly different spelling, causing official flag days to be instated in their honour at those dates! The same is also the case with the Queen on August 8. -- Mic 21:06, Apr 13, 2004 (UTC)

Hi Mic, thanks for the note. Perhaps in that case it would be better for "Karl" and "Viktoria" to be unlinked on that page? At the moment they go to disambiguation pages, which isn't very useful. What do you think? -- sannse (talk) 22:07, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I see your point and I generally agree that pages should not link to disambiguation pages. In the case of "Viktoria", which now redirects to [[Victoria]], I think this is true. In the case of "Karl" I feel that the page it links to contains relevant information, notably it is among the most prominent of the Swedish regal names. There could be several ways to deal with this, expand the originating article with the relevant information, turn Karl into an article and create a separate disambiguation page, or even refering to the English translation "Charles", which also might become an article separated from disambiguation. I'm not really sure about the status of name articles, since they so obviously transcend disambiguation pages and biographical information, but some do exist. I think resolving disambiguation links as one goes along is generally a good system, but links might have been created for a diferent and valid purpose. An interesting question in this context would be whether "all" personal names eventually should be allowed their own articles and prior to this what to do with the bona fide links created for them? I don't feel that this is an immidiate problem but I do believe that there is some validity to the question. -- Mic 09:09, Apr 15, 2004 (UTC)

Humm, good points all. One solution might be to link "Viktoria" to [[Victoria (name)|]], which would presumably be where a page about the personal name itself would go if/when it was written. That's often a good approach with disambiguating to pages that will exist one day. But with names there is still the controversy about whether they should be included as articles (my personal view is that they should). I think for the moment we should probably leave it as it is, there is no harm in a few links to disambiguation pages when that seems to be the best solution. Or we could leave "Karl" as it is and delink "Viktoria" until such a time as an article on the name is written. I'll leave the decision to you :) -- sannse (talk) 11:53, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You've earned this![edit]

Original Barnstar.png You've done so much good work for the Mediation Committee that the least I can do to recognize your dedication and efforts is to award you this lovely barnstar! Please feel free to move it to your user page, keep it here, or hide it away in your page history -- it's yours!

Peace, BCorr|Брайен 02:41, Apr 15, 2004 (UTC)

Thank you, that's very kind of you :) -- sannse (talk) 11:53, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
From watching some stuff in the background, and from your contributions in general, I agree that you've earned it! Elf | Talk 16:45, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Thanks Elf, now I've got a good dose of the warm and fuzzys  :) -- sannse (talk) 16:54, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I have updated Greek, confining myself to articles which have "Greece" or "Greek" in their titles. Adam 11:20, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Reply at User talk:Adam Carr

Somewhere along the line, you said that you had added pretty much all the dog breeds to your watchlist. Is there a tricky/easy way of doing that, or do I just have to go to each link and clidk the watch-it command? (I've been distracted by plants lately--so many of them in bloom out there, all fresh and lovely with the early warmth this year and the early spring rains! And I can take photos of them in my yard & neighborhood, unlike dogs at dog events, where I'm soooo busy already-- ) Elf | Talk 19:09, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't know a quick way. It's just a case of going to each link in turn. I think I've done most of the existing pages and some that don't yet exist (if you copy, the page name into your address bar you can get to a blank page and watchlist it in advance).
I've been looking at all that spring weather too. I think I'll try and get out with my camera this weekend. I don't know of any dog shows, but maybe I can find a handy duck or something to point the camera at. :) -- sannse (talk) 19:28, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Sure, go get them mergansers! Elf | Talk 20:14, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Belgian Shepherd Dogs

What do you think of these? Belgian_Shepherd_Dog

It ain't perfect. I left out the Kennel Clubs I couldn't get info on, and the articles are a bit breif. Also, I'm not sure of my dog-breeding nomenclature. (Is the word "snout" okay to use? Is "patchy" a good description of the colors on a Tervueren's coat? Etc.)

But if I waited for it to be perfect, I'd be breaking the spirit of wiki.

Quadell 00:18, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Good work! It's nice to see the photos used and those are a great start to the articles. -- sannse (talk) 11:07, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm heading off to Agility Camp [2] for 5 days and was snooping around the articles checking for what breeds have photos & which still don't. I've tried to get a Malinois several weekends but our schedules kept clashing. Did manage Bedlington Terrier and English Cocker Spaniel last weekend but haven't uploaded them yet. I thought I had put your blue merle Smooth Collie in the article back when I created it, but apparently not, so now that's there, too. :-) If you're in the mood, Poodle needs breed table and Chow Chow needs mucho editing. Also, have you ever heard of a breed of dog called a Billy? (Has been added to List of Dog Breeds.) Elf | Talk 23:31, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I wanted to clear out my camera, so I created stubs for the Bedlington & Eng. Cocker with no text or table or nuthin'. I can probably do those next week if someone doesn't get to them first. :-) ... Elf | Talk 01:57, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hi Elf, nice photos again! I love the Cocker Spaniel. I checked out the Billy when it was added, I'd never heard of it. It seems it exists [3] although I guess it's rare. I've had no access to dogs for a long time - so I've been pointing my camera at other things (Image:Wheelbarrow.jpg, Image:Deckchair 600.jpg)
Have fun at the agility camp! I hope you catch up witht that Malinois sometime ;) I'll have a look at those articles while you're gone. Enjoy :) -- sannse (talk) 09:43, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

you have no sense of humour

Well, I'm very pleased to say I don't have one like *that* -- sannse (talk) 12:16, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer of mediation. You are the first to contact me. I seem to no longer need it. But I would like for you to check out Greek Philosophies on Republic for accuracy and feedback. Please read ALL before you make a decision. The first paragraphs are hard. Thanks.WHEELER 14:02, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Reply at User talk:WHEELER

"Names of place names" Dispute[edit]

The mediation over what to call all those Polish, German, Czech, etc. places never really got started. I offered to mediate, but only 1 or 2 people accepted, and NO ONE AT ALL left any messages on my talk page. I figured it's not my job as mediator to "push" the mediation along. Especially with so many people involved.

If anybody still wants my help, they can ask for it. I will provide help, if asked. And despite what Sam Spade or Jack Lynch or whatever his name is, said, I've never failed when someone (a) asked me to help them with a Wikipedia "how do we word this" dispute and (b) followed my advice. I even got Lir un-banned -- but only after he followed my advice about how to talk to Jimbo. I managed to settle the Silesia dispute last year -- although it might have flared up again this year: I think it's part of the larger "place names of Europe" thing . . .

Mediation requires a certain amount of willingness from the parties. When it's two people, ONE of them has to try. When it's half a dozen, I'd say at least THREE of them. I don't know how much willingness it will take for a dozen! --Uncle Ed 16:24, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Reply at Ed Poor

Levzur mediation[edit]

Hi sannse - unfortunately I seem to have missed you on IRC. Thanks for trying to clarify Levzur's statement. From previous comments that he's left on article talk pages, I would guess that he's trying to say that he disagrees with the NPOV policy if it means that views other than his own have to be acknowledged. Maybe I'm misinterpreting his latest statement but I don't hold out much hope for this being all a big misunderstanding, frankly. -- ChrisO 23:47, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Sorry I missed you Chris, I tend to forget to change my nick when I go to sleep so me being there is not always a good indication that I'm actually there ;) I too read Levzur's statement as probably a "no", but I think it is worth clarifying, maybe his next message will be clearer. -- sannse (talk) 08:22, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for letting me join the mediation committee. I have just joined the boards, and am going through all the material there. (this confirms that it is me that joined the boards) Danny 12:23, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the confirmation Danny - full access enabled -- sannse (talk) 12:25, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Re: RK and Heidimo

No mediation occurred -- IIRC, RK declined to participate. Tuf-Kat 04:25, Apr 26, 2004 (UTC)

Hello Sannse -- I'm not sure if you're simply making the initial contact with Anthony DiPierro, or if you are planning to conduct the mediation as well. If I'm needed, I'm happy to work on this one. I've had some contact with Anthony on IRC, and I don't think I've had any conflicts with him. Also, I haven't done anything for a while as I was pretty busy through Saturday working on a conference I was organizing. I've got more time to help now. Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 12:01, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)

Hi Brian, I was just making the intial contact - I'm happy with you doing the mediation itself if that can be agreed. The main problem I see at the moment is that there is no second party so far. I don't really see how we can mediate unless there are people to mediate between! I suggest we leave it a little longer to see if anyone steps forward, then look again to see how we can fulfill the arbitration committee's request. -- sannse (talk) 13:40, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes, that all makes sense. You and I both know what it's like to try that -- sort of like the sound of one hand clapping.... It may make sense later to ask them what exactly they were expecting of us, but for now I agree it's best to wait and see. Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 19:21, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)

Wow, you sure did do your homework! You been busy! I had a great time. Was surrounded every day on every side by zillions of breeds of dogs that I needed photos of and had time to take snapshots of exactly 4. One of my Malinois acquaintances and a Schnauzer guy and a friend with fawn boxers promised to email me some nice photos of their dogs. The latter's spouse is also a dog photographer and she promised that if the GFDL license looks good they could probably give us tons of breed photos! We'll see whether he really wants to do it, though. I was bussssssyyyyyyy and learned a lot about agility and there's always so much more to learn, even after 9 years (wow again! Hard to believe sometimes--). I even carried my camera around with me, but the schedule just didn't work out for taking photos! I'll have better luck at weekend competitions as I have in the past. Elf | Talk 03:33, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

OK, added photos to Boxer (dog) and English Setter; created new Miniature Australian Shepherd article. I couldn't decide between 2 English Setter photos--I kinda like the one looking over his shoulder because it's different, but maybe the straight one shows the dog a little better? Image:EnglishShepherd9_fx_wb.jpg and Image:EnglishShepherd10_fx_wb.jpg. Also had a brain hiccup when I named the photos and named them English Shepherd instead of Setter and didn't want to go thru whole process of trying to have them deleted & then readding properly. Elf | Talk 05:14, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

And, oh yeah, love the scary goose photo! Elf | Talk 05:15, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm glad you like the goose - he had my mother and me in hysterics, following us around, glaring at us out of one eye like that - I just had to keep the photo!
Yours look good as always (except the cropped ears, boo-hiss and all that ;) I like the look of the mini Australian Shepherd, lovely! I think the English setter photos are both good, but maybe the straight one is a little clearer, with the tail as well as the overall outline. But either is good. If you want to upload them with the right titles I can do a speedy deletion on those with the wrong name, just let me know. I'm glad you had a good time while you were away :) and great news about the possibility of more photos! That will be great if it works out.
By the way, thanks for catching that embarrassing apostrophe. -- sannse (talk) 20:13, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Just created a new article, docking, that you might have an interest in. (I hope my friend Kay forgives me for using her pets as an example of docked/not... in an article that I tried to make NPOV but might come across as judgemental.) Elf | Talk 17:29, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

I'll have a look, but I'm not exactly the best judge of NPOV on this subject! -- sannse (talk) 21:30, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

Hi sannse -- I just noticed the new info on RfM and your request to Kingturtle. I'll go ahead and draft a note, but it seems like we can wait a bit before doing anything with it. And thanks for your note. BCorr|Брайен 20:25, May 5, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I think a pause is in order to see if that gets any response on RfM.
On the chair issue - I decided not to leave notes on committee members' talk pages yet, I think everyone will have that page watched - but if we feel we need to we can drop them a note later. -- sannse (talk) 20:29, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Hi sannse, nice pictures of Forget-me-nots... are you able to pin them down to a species and or variety, and if so, could you add the information to the image pages, please? We are gradually working down to species level with the commoner flowering plants (though it is a long haul) and it would be great to have some images ready to go onto pages when we get there. Thanks. seglea 02:02, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, I was pleased with that photo :) It's Myosotis sylvatica, I don't know the variety though. It's difficult when I'm out with the camera - I see a lovely flower to photograph - then have to try to find out what on earth it is! I've got a little file of photos that I will upload once I identify them. I've added the info for the Forget-me-not, and also a question on the article talk page. -- sannse (talk) 10:03, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Hi Sannse, I saw you are a mediator, so maybe you have an idea of how to deal with someone who tries to personally insult me on his userpage by creating a "crybaby of the year award"? TDC already got banned once for telling someone to "suck his own dick". I also asked Bcorr about it. Get-back-world-respect 17:15, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

The first thing that would seem sensible to me is that you try to discuss the issue with TDC. I understand why you might feel that this would be unproductive if the relationship between you has become difficult, but it seems a necessary first step and is certainly worth a try. If that doesn't help then please see Wikipedia:dispute resolution for other suggestions. If you have made sincere efforts to resolve the problem in other ways and need more help, then you can request mediation at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation. I hope this helps. -- sannse (talk) 18:54, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Thanks, I tried. However, Wikipedia:dispute resolution clearly says no personal attacks. Over there it says Many Wikipedians remove personal attacks on sight. In extreme cases, users have been banned for repeatedly engaging in personal attacks. TDC already got banned once, was listed as a vandal, and someone created a page Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/TDC. I listed his crybaby image for speedy deletion. Get-back-world-respect 23:02, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
There are differing views on if and how that guideline should be enforced. User pages with comments about other users are also being discussed. As I said, if all else fails you can request mediation - but you are not likely to find a mediator unless you have made careful and polite attempts to resolve the problem in other ways. If that also fails, then you can request arbitration. Be aware that the arbitrators will look at your behaviour as well as the other party's. -- sannse (talk) 08:39, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
I never insult people, I do not see how it could help in any way. Plus, I do not even know people here. I only see their edits, and I criticize those if I see a reason to do this. I told TDC that trying to insult someone says more about the person who does it than about anyone else. He removed the picture telling me "Listen chooch (...) Seriously now, shut up. Or you might be up for furhter nomination." "shut the fuck up" and called me a "dildo".
The rules are straightforward: No personal attacks. Over there it says Many Wikipedians remove personal attacks on sight. In extreme cases, users have been banned for repeatedly engaging in personal attacks. Specific types of slur covered by this include but are not limited to the following: * Political affiliation attacks (often, calling someone a Nazi) - On his userpage TDC calls indymedia "Nazimedia". He already got banned once for telling someone to "suck his own dick". See Wikipedia:Requests for comment/TDC Get-back-world-respect 22:53, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I understand the problem. Please see above for my suggestions. -- sannse (talk) 10:03, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

I can understand that you do not want to ban him again, but I do not quite understand why the picture has not yet been deleted. Get-back-world-respect 21:26, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I thought you approached me in my capacity as a member of the mediation committee. Banning and image deletion are not part of the mediation committee role - our role is to mediate not to arbitrate. I see you have already listed the image on IfD. If the community believes it appropriate to delete it, it will be deleted in due course. I believe the usual listing time is a minimum of five days. As for banning - that is down to the arbitration committee. I have no power to ban (outside the usual admin ability of blocking for simple vandalism) -- sannse (talk) 21:53, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
I did approach you because I thought as a member of the mediation committee you might know how to treat such cases. I agree that no single user should be entitled to ban others, but for the orphan image that was solely used in an attempt to personally attack someone else I do not see why it should be given five days or why you would need to wait for the community to make up its mind. Get-back-world-respect 22:01, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
I have outlined the way I believe such cases should be handled above. I'm afraid there is nothing I can add to that. As I have said, image deletion is not part of my role as part of the mediation committee. If you are asking me to delete it as an admin (not relating to the mediation committee), then I will say no - I believe it better that this goes through the normal process. That way there is less chance of there being a dispute about it in the future. A few days patience on this issue may save argument later. -- sannse (talk) 22:17, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
More than five days are over and all pictures are still there 8^( Get-back-world-respect 11:49, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
If you choose to request mediation, and if TDC chooses to participate then perhaps I (or the mediator chosen) can help. Otherwise I'm afraid you are asking in the wrong place. One other suggestion: if you can persuade TDC to second your request for image deletion that may help persuade the admins that deal with that page. Otherwise, I would guess that the image will be deleted at some point - I'm not very familiar with the workings of IfD so don't know. It looks from the page as though images take longer to reach deletion that I thought. -- sannse (talk) 12:28, 15 May 2004 (UTC)


Thank you for your interest in mediating problems. As I have declined I have archived the message and posted a bulletin. Please do not allow Spade to use the page to troll and say thing about me. As mediation will not happen no further requests should be listed. thanks. GrazingshipIV 19:30, May 10, 2004 (UTC)

I think it would have been sensible to allow Sam time to see the response, but I won't revert now as the edit was one I would have made in due course. Regards, -- sannse (talk) 19:39, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

mediation statement draft[edit]

Hi, sannse -- I've finally done up a draft as we discussed. It can be found on my subpage. Sorry it's taken so long, and please feel absolutely free to edit it or to suggest changes to me. We can check with the rest of the committee once we're done. Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 01:31, May 12, 2004 (UTC)

Looks fine to me. I've made a slight change, but don't mind if you don't feel it should stay. How do you want to check with the rest of the committee? I suggest talk pages or Wikipedia talk:Mediation committee. Can I leave that to you? I will be away for the next day or so, but should be back by Friday evening. -- sannse (talk) 22:50, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
The change you made makes it more clear -- thanks. And I'm happy to check with the rest of the committee. I should note that I'm actually leaving tomorrow evening, and will be in California from 13 May through 22 May, and will have less accessibility to Wikipedia than usual (especially until the 17th), so I may ask you to take over if I haven't gotten a clear answer before I leave. Thanks again, BCorr|Брайен 23:02, May 12, 2004 (UTC)
Sure, that's no problem - sannse (talk) 23:03, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I've left everyone notes and added sections for responses on User:Bcorr/mediation statement draft. Have a good miniwikivacation! BCorr|Брайен 01:58, May 13, 2004 (UTC)

Dog pages footer[edit]

Ha, just when you're away for a few days-- I implemented a start on a dog-page footer. I'll put discussion on the WikiProject Dog breeds talk page. Elf | Talk 00:55, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

OK Elf, I've replied there (not very positively I'm afraid). Devon was beautiful by the way - no dogs, but maybe some other useful photos. -- sannse (talk) 12:28, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
(I mean - there are dogs in Devon, obviously, I just didn't take any photos of them) -- sannse (talk) 12:31, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

mediation statement draft update[edit]

The approval process is chugging along just fine, but llyrwch has made a comment that most people have endorsed, and I'm wondering if this means that we should add it to the statement as a comments, or something similar. I'll be leaving for the airport in a couple of hours and probably won't be back to Wikipedia until sometime on the 24th. Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 17:39, May 13, 2004 (UTC)

I think it should be added, I will have a better look when I get back from work. Enjoy your time away :) -- sannse (talk) 12:28, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

The changes to the mediation draft are fine with me. Angela. 14:09, May 16, 2004 (UTC)


I haven't found a best Allium site. There is some very interesting info in this one.

"Wild onion" is applied to many, many Allium species. If any species has only that as a common name, it doesn't really have a common name. The move to Ramsons is a good one IMO.

The Shallot is an interesting case. Traditionally it has been ascribed to Allium ascalonicum or just merged in A cepa, but the reference above places the "Grey Shallot" in A. oschaninii on biochemical grounds. The trouble is that what is grown as shallots (especially in America) is usually just a variety of A. cepa, but I have grown the true (grey) shallot and it is clearly a different species.

Good luck. This genus is a hard one, with many disagreements, and most species have no generally accepted common names.

WormRunner | Talk 05:14, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks WormRunner, I'll give it a go :) -- sannse (talk) 15:58, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Dogs and Categories[edit]

Thanks for the heads up on categories. I've been gone for 4 days. Have been fighting a whole new UI in Mac OS X for about 3 weeks and stress level is high. Came back to find everything here changed, too! Looks nice but it will take a while to explore & not sure what I'll get to this week. I'm sure Cat's will help us immensely. Elf | Talk 19:46, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

If you decide you don't like the look, you can change back to standard skin in you preferences, I think I like it though. Hopefully some of the bugs (which show up in either skin) will be fixed soon, the problem with white space and categories has been mentioned a few times, so tables will look better again eventually - I like your solution of moving the table below the first paragraph though. I hope the stress levels are falling now -- sannse (talk) 08:03, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Mediation request[edit]

Hello there -- I think that this user is perhaps Lir, FYI. -- BCorr|Брайен 03:43, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yes, that seems to be a strong possibility, *sigh* -- sannse (talk) 08:11, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Less so now apparently (according to Tim, from IP information) but the general idea holds -- sannse (talk) 08:52, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the congrats[edit]

This week's going to be nuts out here (in the real world, I mean), besides being gone for the next 4 days, so I won't be up to much today. Elf | Talk 19:17, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Red-crested Pochard[edit]

I wanted to ask your advice on a duck I've photographed. I thought it was a female Red-crested Pochard, but the male it was with doesn't look quite like your picture or examples I've found in books. Mine seems less crested, although everything else looks OK. Is the size of the red crest variable? Do you think it is the real thing or is it a hybrid?

1. Your female image looks identical to the pic in my reference book (Youngs Wildfowl of the World) so no problem there.
2. Your male pic also completely agrees with Young (and several other books I have) so nothing to worry about there.
3. My male image at Red-crested Pochard agrees with Young also, except possibly for the rather dark upper back and rear and the slightly larger crest. I am no expert (just a photographer) but I imagine a windy day or a cold day could raise the crest so I don't think the exact size of it is relevant in identification. I can't explain the darker back and rear, however these Slimbridge birds are clipped so maybe they get bored, meet up with bad company and mate with the wrong bird (just being whimsical there!) Even so, my article pic is sufficiently close to Young for me to be satisfied it is a Red-crested Pochard and that it will not mislead the reader.
By the way, nice pic you took, Best Wishes,
Adrian Pingstone 20:32, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, that's great. I feared mine just wasn't crested enough :) I'll add the female to the article. Regards -- sannse (talk) 20:43, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hi Sannse--I don't follow very much of what is written above!

Thank you for welcoming me to the Dog Project. I have raised some issues on the dog breedtalk page, (I think that's what it was called) and as I write this I realize that I don't know the link to show you where I put it.

When I first went there to add my comments, I clicked on 'edit' and when I'd finished I clicked 'preview' and it looked as though I had deleted a whole bunch of other people's stuff. Since I had done a preview first, I think I was able to start over with no harm done, but if you can make sure I didn't remove anyone else's comments, I'd be grateful. I'm also hoping you can comment on the points I've made. Thank you.Quill 00:19, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I can't see anything missing - it looks fine. Nothing is saved when you preview, so as long as all looks OK before you press "save page" there should be no problems. It may have been that you were editing a section rather than the whole page (the edit links on the side are for sections) but either way all is well. I've added many replies to your comments on Talk:List of dog breeds - to link to any of the pages just use square brackets around the page title [[like this]], just as you do to create links within articles. Keep asking questions :) -- sannse (talk) 08:07, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I now realize that I must've been editing a section. I get it now! Quill 10:47, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)


Hi Sansse,

Nice you created a stub article on the Yellow rattle.

When you create an article on a flower, pls also search with its latin name through google on You will usually find links to other wikis already having articles on flowers : the French, Spanish and Dutch wikis are ahead of or a par with the en: in this respect.

TeunSpaans 12:23, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hi TeunSpaans. You mean in order to put in interwiki links? I prefer to leave that to those who know the language - it's not an area I am interested in working on and I prefer not to risk making an incorrect link. Feel free to follow me and put them in if it's important to you. Regards -- sannse (talk) 14:55, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Shall we drop the interwiki links all together? The en: is not something I am interested in. ;) TeunSpaans 20:17, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Heh! point made :) (but I remain cautions of errors) -- sannse (talk) 09:53, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC).
OK! You'll find it easy in general - simply use google with in the search box, for example "Helianthus annuus" will give you all wiki pages with this flower. The easy thing about flowers is that most languages have some form of a taxonomy box on the right of the page, and / or have the latin name of the flower / tree at the start. Errors are still possible - some languages combine flowers and genus, or even more dangerously, partly combine them. When I suspect something like that, I usually either refrain from making a link, or guess and notify one of the contributors to the article asking for a check.
One of the nice thing about wiki is that in this way I could even create links in the japanese wiki, and that's certainly a language I cann't read a word of.
Google isnt perfect, and the problems with our link systeem also seem to effect google.
TeunSpaans 11:46, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Dog breeds category work[edit]

Good job! You been busy! Elf | Talk 20:20, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

  • Oh, I added a breed table to Perro de Presa Canario. It's probably got extra stuff in it and I have to go... I couldn't find a page with FCI breed info, so the link currently points to the generic list of breeds page. Maybe you can find it on another site. Also your spreadsheet listed its origin as spain but my references all say canary islands. FYI. Elf | Talk 20:24, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I think this is a problem that crops up in a couple of places in the spreadsheet - I went mostly by the FCI information and I think that they sometimes take the country of origin as the country that introduced the breed to the FCI. Something to keep an eye out for. I've done the table fiddles and added a more direct link to a standard. -- sannse (talk) 09:53, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Disambig Hebrew[edit]

Sannse, you're doing a great job. This was going to take forever... JFW | T@lk 21:56, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks :) Disambiging is a great way to reduce wikistress you know -- sannse (talk) 19:26, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Help with Photographs[edit]

If I understood you correctly, Sannse, one can retain copyright on photographs.

Okay, I've got permission to use two photos, one owner doesn't want their photo used anywhere else without specific written permission, one will allow the photo to be used at any time for personal or educational use. How to deal with these?

I went to the upload page and was confused by the requests for ownership and licence. Do I put that info into the Summary box? And how do I know what the licence is?

Finally, how do I write captions--or is that clear when I start the process? Thanks. Quill 23:57, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I just happened to be here, so I'm responding to this.
  • For an example of a specific copyright request along with the GFDL license, see Image:Sandbox25703 5762.jpg. Click the Edit tab to see what the markup looks like. When you upload an image, it displays a page something like "your image is uploaded; go to the image page //link usually here// and add copyright info." So then you click on the link for the image, then on the image page you click Edit and there ya go.
Nope; still don't get completely get it. Maybe I'd better try again when I'm not so tired
  • I don't even remember where I found the 'upload image wizard'
  • In both your examples,ELF, the owner gave permission. I want to know if they can keep copyright, or certain rights
  • I do remember that the image upload thingy wanted me to specify the kind of licence the photo was under--HUH??! Quill
Elf | Talk 03:21, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This is way cool, but how is there one caption on the image in the article, and a completely different one when you click to enlarge?
HEEEELP! Quill 10:43, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'll give it a go :)

OK. Image issues. Please remember all this is just my understanding of the issues, I'm not a lawyer and this is complex stuff when you really get into it.

First - copyright: The photo owner (usually the photographer) retains copyright unless he chooses to give up those rights (i.e. releases the image into the public domain). But he can licence the photo under different licences - this gives others some rights, but keeps "ownership" with the photographer. This is the way Wikipedia works - our text is copyrighted, but licensed under the GFDL. It's similar for most images here - the photographer retains the copyright, but licences it to Wikipedia (and others) under the GFDL or similar. This is complicated by other situations - for example we use some images in the belief that their use is considered "fair use" under US law.

For the photos you want to use: The owner is saying that we can use them "with permission". This is like licensing, but with a very specific use (Wikipedia only for example). This has two problems - one, the photo will be used elsewhere - without permission and probably illegally, but you should be aware that it will happen. Enforcing the rules is difficult as I'm sure you know. Secondly, "with permission" images are discouraged, because Wikipedia is supposed to be used elsewhere - that's part of the free-source philosophy. Of course, not everyone agrees this last issue is a problem. (You might notice from my user page that this is an issue I think important).

How to upload: make sure you are logged in, and the link to the upload page is on the menu on the left (look for "upload file" in the toolbox menu).

  • Click on the upload link
  • click on the "browse" button
  • find your file
  • fill in a description
    • for the "with permission" photo you would include the text: {{copyrighted}}
    • for the "non-comercial use only" you would include: {{noncommercial}}
  • tick the box to say you have permission
  • click on the upload button at the bottom

There is a list of these tags at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags, all my images are GFDL, so I add {{GFDL}} to mine.

Captions: The caption is different on the larger version of an image because on the image page the caption is about the photo itself - who took it and so on. Whereas the article caption describes the image from the point of view of the article An image might be on several pages, each with different captions - but the image page will always give the information about the image itself.

I hope this helps some

--sannse (talk) 18:21, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thank you both. Yes, well, this certainly gives me food for thought.
With Permission Photographs. Perhaps how one feels about copyright boils down to the difference between that which one does for a living, and that which is a hobby--both for the owner of the copyright and the one who trespasses against it. The motive of the transgressor would also come into play.
If my photograph were used without permission by
  • A Sunday School teacher, I'd be inclined to let it go, on the grounds that the person wasn't making any money on it, probably didn't know the rules, and the fuss I would generate would be bad for world karma, as opposed to the possible good generated by a Sunday School lesson.
  • A megabuck multinational corporation. I'd be furious, on the grounds that Megabucks, Inc. know exactly what they're doing and have the money to pay for what they use without a problem AND would sue the pants off anyone who tresspassed against them.
Does that make sense to you?
Writing in general. This has made me rethink my position. Since writing is 'what I do' I want to be careful. I just posed a 'for instance' at the Help Desk to help clarify things in my mind. Maybe you guys can give me your philosophy on the subject. Quill 22:03, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yes, your concerns about commercial use are understandable. My own philosophy is pretty much summed up by "Wikipedia - good". I love the project and feel that what we are trying to achieve is more important to me than any concerns about improper use of the material. I do, however, think that it's important that we try to enforce our licence - and insist that derivative works are also "free for use" (see the help desk for my thoughts on the specific example you gave there though). But, as you say, editing Wikipedia and photography for Wikipedia are hobbies for me, which means these issues aren't as high on my worry list as they might be otherwise. I hope these concerns work out for you, you are doing great work and it's great to have you here -- sannse (talk) 07:11, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Emergency Help--destroyed DOG article[edit]

I didn't mean to. I was edited the bottom section and adding to it and every time I tried to do a preview and save it kept freezing on me.

Finally it worked, but to my horror my ammended section has REPLACED the entire article! Can somebody reverse this FAST?

copying this to everyone's pages in the hope that someone sees it soon. Quill 01:35, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I see it's been fixed :) Don't worry, these things usually are easily mended from the article history. We have a few server and security issues at the moment that are causing these freezes, the techy types are working on it of course -- sannse (talk) 07:11, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Mediation bulletin board broken?[edit]

Hi sannse -- I've noticed that the mediation bulletin board seems to be down -- along with all of the others. Do you know if that was lost when the databases were being worked on over the last couple of weeks? And I like the new butterfly :-) Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 20:17, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hi Brian, I'm not sure - I have to admit I've not been there for ages. I keep forgetting to check in there so I don't know how long it's been down. If it's not back shortly I suggest we talk to Erik, he may know -- sannse (talk) 20:20, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Ok -- I'll leave him a note then... Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 20:24, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
He asked me to ask Brion Vibber, who then fixed it in a few minutes.... And thanks for your email to foundation-l. Thanks again, BCorr|Брайен 20:54, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Great, thanks for sorting this Brian, I'll be sure to check there more often (although it seems rather dead at the moment) -- sannse (talk) 19:53, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hello Sannse,

I edited recently the articles Sempervivum, Jovibarba, succulent plants and Crassulaceae. In Crassulaceae I used a photography of a money tree. I was interested, who shot the phot, and so I explored the Sannse-page. It's interesting: I have aquariums too, I suffer the same desease, and I am interested in religions and nature too. Please excuse my bad English, I am from Germany.


Hi Nup, thanks for visiting my page. That's an interesting lot of similarities :) You might be interested in my full view gallery (warning: many images) - it contains pictures of some of my aquarium fish - although I hope for a better one of the bristlenose catfish when she grows up a bit. It's good to see you have an account - welcome to Wikipedia! Regards -- sannse (talk) 17:17, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

breed page error[edit]

Hi Sannse--could you check something out for me? When I look at the Miniature Fox Terrier page, in the little pink box the link to Mini Foxie Club shows up in red, rather than blue. When I click there, it takes me not to the article, but to the EDIT THIS ARTICLE screen.

Can you fix it, or is there something wonky in my browser only? Quill 21:34, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Talk about prompt responses! Okay, will wait to find out what the trouble is. Quill 21:43, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
You're on the money! Thanks! Quill 21:44, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Glad to help :) -- sannse (talk) 21:56, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Language names[edit]

Heh, thanks for the proper linkage! :)


Most welcome :) -- sannse (talk) 17:44, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)