User talk:Skinsmoke

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Hello, welcome to my talk page. Feel free to post messages for me here, using a new section if relevant (just click the banner at the top of this page). I will normally reply to a message here rather than on your own talk page, so you may wish to temporarily bookmark this page if you expect a reply.

If I've left a message for you on your own talk page I'll have bookmarked that page so you can reply to me there rather than here. This has the advantage of avoiding fragmented discussions.


Infobox UK place[edit]

I've responded to your question at Template talk:Infobox UK place#Police and Fire concerning Brackla. I've also fixed the article for you. If you are editing many {{Infobox UK place}} articles, you might want to view the subtemplate source code at Template:Infobox UK place/local to see the current list of valid parameter values. Your question highlights a possible need for the template code to be reviewed so that other editors are not confused when valid links break the template. — Richardguk (talk) 10:16, 9 January 2010 (UTC)


Skinsmoke, today you moved Llanfair-yn-Neubwll to Llanfair-yn-neubwll. Apparently based on one website. If you place the village name into Google only one site out of the first 30 uses Llanfair-yn-neubwll with a small 'n'. Those using the capital includes the Police Force, Yell and from a printed perspective so does the Enyclopedia of Wales. Are there any other reasons for the move? FruitMonkey (talk) 12:20, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Please see Enaidmawr's comments under Meadgrove above timed at 17:10 on 12 August 2009. As he states, the one website is the definitive source on Welsh spellings, and is used as the main source by Welsh Wikipedia for the correct version. This is a Welsh name, rather than an English transliteration such as Treorchy. It appears that in cases like this, even Welsh speakers get confused, but, by my reading, and backed up by the source quoted, as the meaning of the name is St Mary in the Two Pools, it should definitely be an uncapitalised neubwll. Skinsmoke (talk) 12:41, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
PS. I've asked Enaidmawr to confirm whether the above is correct or not. Skinsmoke (talk) 12:47, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
PPS Especially as he contradicted his own source on this one above! I'd only just noticed that! As he said, even the experts get it wrong occasionally. Let's see what he has to say. If I've got it wrong it can always be undone without too much trouble. Skinsmoke (talk) 12:58, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the update. I'll watch this space. FruitMonkey (talk) 14:17, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Just seen your message, Skinsmoke. I can understand the confusion and yes, it does seem I contradicted myself. Canolfan Bedwyr ( Search here), established by the University of Wales etc., gives the name with a small 'n'. However, although it's merely my own opinion, I think they've done a blunder here. I assumed that deubwll (dau + pwll) was a purely toponymic reference to a feature in the landscape. In one sense it is, the two pyllau in question being the diminutive lakes, Llyn Dinam and Llyn Penrhyn. However, Deubwll was a medieval 'township' (not a town per se) and so in this case 'Deubwll' can be assumed to be an historical place-name which came to be used to distinguish yet another 'Llanfair' from its many namesakes (blame it on the Normans for finally battering the Welsh church into submission to Rome and spreading Marianism!). That being the case, there is a valid argument for the capital 'D' (mutated to 'N'), for obvious reasons and according to standard practice in Welsh, rather than a small 'd' (mutated to 'n')) which would be correct if it were just a reference to the two lakes (or any other general feature of the landscape). The place-name section of Atlas Môn agrees; somewhat ironic that it was written by the late Prof. Melville Richards whose database of historical place-names was placed at the disposal of Canolfan Bedwyr when the project was set up, if I recall rightly... So I eat humble pie and suggest that Canolfan Bedwyr do the same! Bit long-winded, but I hope that helps. Enaidmawr (talk) 22:34, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Just to clarify, am I correct in thinking you are saying it should probably be Llanfair-yn-Neubwll after all? Skinsmoke (talk) 02:07, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Not to put too fine a point on it, yes! Enaidmawr (talk) 22:25, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
I have also emailed Canolfan Bedwyr asking for clarification and referring them to this discussion. Skinsmoke (talk) 02:15, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Should be interesting to hear what they have to say. If Deubwll does refer to the township then I can't see how it can be spelled with a small 'n'. Medieval townships could cover a fair area, of course, usually consisting of scattered farms and dwellings, so the church would only have to be on that parcel of land for it to termed 'yn Neubwll' (a similar example: Llanfair-yng-Nghornwy - an Anglesey parish - correctly spelled thus by Canolfan Bedwyr as Cornwy is a place-name). Enaidmawr (talk) 22:25, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
At last, a reply from Canolfan Bedwyr:-
"Thanks for drawing attention to the matter of the correct spelling of Llanfair-yn-Neubwll, and apologies for the delay in replying.
The form 'Llanfair-yn-neubwll' is the one listed in A Gazetteer of Welsh Place-Names (University of Wales Press (1967 / 1996), one of the standard reference works relating to Welsh place-name orthography. However, in this instance they (and we) appear to have slipped. As mentioned in the Wikipedia discussion, Deubwll was a township, so Llanfair-yn-Neubwll would be the preferred spelling (cf. Betws-yn-Rhos, Llanfair-ym-Muallt and so on).
We'll update the reference on the Enwau Cymru site at the earliest opportunity.
All the best,
Owain Davies (on behalf of Enwau Cymru)."
Will get an administrator to put the article back where it belongs. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:40, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Good grief, much work for such a small letter. Thanks for investigating. FruitMonkey (talk) 18:22, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Or a big letter, even! At least it proves one thing conclusively: Wikipedia changes the world (or at least one small village on a Welsh island)! Skinsmoke (talk) 18:33, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Thanks to Canolfan Bedwyr for confirming this and promising to change the spelling @Enwau Cymru. Diolch, Owain, os wyt ti'n darllen hyn. Reinforces my already considerable respect for the late Melville Richards. And it's nice to see Wikipedia "changing [one small corner of] the world" correctly (for once - lest we get too smug!). Diolch i ti hefyd, Skinsmoke. Enaidmawr (talk) 23:55, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikimedia Commons[edit]

Hello there Skinsmoke,

I noticed you're work at Wikimedia Commons, particularly the much needed organisation and reorganisation of the Greater Manchester category. However, I raised a question here about making some further changes.

Do you plan to roll out the same format you introduced for the Stockport borough, for the remaining districts (ie do you have plans to have a "Met. Brg. of Oldham" category within which Oldham, Chadderton, Royton etc sit?). If so, please will you give me a nudge and I'll be happy to assist. --Jza84 |  Talk  13:42, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi Jza. It was primarily your original request for help that got me started on Stockport (plus a bit of a problem over in Wirral that I agreed, foolishly, to help out on!}. I don't think it's the most important thing in the world, but if someone is looking for images from, say the Metropolitan Borough of Stockport, they should really be able to access the whole lot of them, wherever they may be lurking (and some were lurking in some very strange places). I think what I've started to roll out there helps, without preventing someone who just wants images of Cheadle having to wade through piles of stuff they're not interested in. It's not my top priority, but it's something I've been having a bash at when I'm bored and don't want to have to think too much. By all means have a go at Metro Oldham - it won't do any harm for anyone who likes the present system, but it does bring in an additional layer that some may find useful. For example, anyone searching Towns and Villages in Greater Manchester will still be able to get to the images the old way. Skinsmoke (talk) 14:03, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Totally agree with this. :)
I'll probably have a bash at this at some point this evening - it's a pretty collossal task, and a bot has created loads of unwanted categories that need deleting/merging too! I'm disappointed though that Geograph and Flickr haven't got more shots of the region in the snow - I have been checking for them so as to add them to commons, but not much luck. --Jza84 |  Talk  14:12, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Incidentally, I'd hold off on deleting the unwanted categories for a while. They have been created, I understand, ready for about 250,000 images about to be uploaded from Geograph, which is due to happen shortly. After that initial run, I think it's intended to do further runs until everything from Geograph UK and Geograph Ireland is added to Commons, followed by Geograph Deutschland. As it's all being done automatically, deleting the categories may cause a few problems. If you want to find out more, contact User:Multichill on Commons. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:47, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
PS Didn't really get out with the camera myself in the snow as I've been full of a cold since before Christmas, but I did venture out at a friend's and took a couple - even Ridge Hill was looking quite presentable in the winter sunshine! Must get them uploaded. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:52, 11 January 2010 (UTC)


Nice job there, I thought you were wrong on Ederyn but turns out not (although its a pity that the Saint's spelling is not maintained Just wondering though - when I grew up in North Wales (and spent every summer at Llangwnadl), no one ever called it a peninsular it was always just the Llŷn I wonder if we should rename? --Snowded TALK 09:00, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that. It's nice to be appreciated occasionally instead of always getting up someone's nose! I think Edeyrn became Edern in 1955, at the same time that Nefyn changed its spelling. Funnily enough, I had only this morning suggested the same to Enaidmawr about moving to Llŷn. I think the Llŷn Peninsula tag came from the academic geographers among us, but I really don't see why the Peninsula is necessary, or even desirable. Probably the same bunch that landed us with Outer Hebrides! I would even suggest the same applies to Gower Peninsula. Incidentally, I've moved on to filling in some of the red links for the communities and villages on Llŷn Peninsula, getting stubs created, and then intend to do something about the dreadful Settlements section, which is nothing more than a pretty poor list. Finally, thanks for your support on the Cardiganshire merge to Ceredigion. I intend to leave it a few days to see if there's any more opposition: I had half expected howls of anguish from the "Historic Counties" brigade, but it doesn't seem to be materialising. If not, may even make an attempt to get Merionethshire merged into Meirionnydd! Skinsmoke (talk) 09:24, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
We should at least use Gŵyr even if we don't drop the Peninsular, but agree on that. If Enaidmawr is agreed maybe its time to propose as there is citation support I think (will have to look that up. Let me know if you need support withe those who haven't realised that Wye is the border not the Usk --Snowded TALK 09:50, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Hey! I've met people from Newport. As an Englishman, I can say you're welcome to them! ;-) Skinsmoke (talk) 10:01, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


It is illogical to use the modern spelling Ceredigion in a list of counties from the 17th century where all the other counties use their contemporary 17th century names. RGCorris (talk) 15:25, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

I have replied on your talk page. Please leave any response there, so that it is not necessary to switch back and forth between talk pages to follow a discussion. Skinsmoke (talk) 15:41, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

On a related note, please stop bypassing the redirects - see WP:NOTBROKEN and User_talk:Lozleader#.22Cleaning_up.22_redirects. Some of your recent edits have just repeated the same problem. BencherliteTalk 23:22, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

As with User:Lozleader, new to me: I had also been told in the past that it is preferable to bypass the redirect in such cases, and in this particular merge the only person who registered an objection to the move demanded that the links be redirected, so I got on with it. It's certainly a lot less work, though there are numerous instances (about 50 per cent), where the link was to the wrong name anyway. Skinsmoke (talk) 23:42, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your message. Perhaps you could link the Welsh guidelines for me at some stage; I can't immediately find them. Not that I particularly have an axe to grind in either direction of this argument, but I think you're not quoting the applicable guidance in full. Browsing around, I found WP:PLACE (a universal, not one-country, guideline), which says (with emphasis added):

  1. The title: When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This often will be a local name, or one of them; but not always. If the place does not exist anymore, or the article deals only with a place in a period when it held a different name, the widely accepted historical English name should be used. ...
  2. The lead ...
  3. The contents (this applies to all articles using the name in question): The same name as in the title should be used consistently throughout the article. Exceptions are allowed only if there is a widely accepted historic English name for a specific historical context. In cases when a widely accepted historic English name is used, it should be followed by the modern English name in parentheses on the first occurrence of the name in applicable sections of the article in the format: "historical name (modern name)."

So as I read it, it is permitted by WP:PLACE to say that Gilbertson, etc, were "born in Cardiganshire (now known as Ceredigion)" since that would be the widely-accepted historical English name for the county. I don't actually care enough about this to follow your contributions around, but perhaps this might give you something to think about. BencherliteTalk 01:06, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Personally, I think that would be acceptable under that guideline, yes. However, I would be wary of trying to use that as an argument to overturn the more local guideline, as there is always the danger of running into arguments about national varieties of English. That guideline refers specifically to the problems of Mumbai and Nanjing (which then brings in also the problem of transliteration), but there are many other examples. Wikipedia, for example, follows Canadian useage and shies away from terms like Eskimo, which would be totally unnacceptable in modern Canadian useage, even though it may still be acceptable in many parts of the English speaking world.
I think the point here is that anyone looking up the place on a map would be likely to find it in Ceredigion, not Cardiganshire. In any case, is the historical period particularly relevant to where the place is, in these cases? If someone were, for example, appointed High Sheriff in 1763, it would be of Cardiganshire, as that was the official title. Similarly, somebody elected to parliament in 1911 would be for Cardiganshire, as that was the official name of the constituency. Both have historical relevance. However, a mere geographic descriptor is surely more useful if it describes where the place is now. We would refer to Stonehenge being an ancient monument in Wiltshire, but I'm damned certain that the people who built it didn't use that term. Similarly, the Romans built a villa at Fishbourne in West Sussex, long before the South Saxons invaded our shores. In those cases, the historical period isn't particularly relevant to determining where the feature is located.
It surely boils down to using a bit of common sense. The Battle of Stalingrad is so deeply entrenched in the English language that it would be foolish to refer to it as the Battle of Volgograd. But it would be equally foolish not to mention in the article that it occurred in and around Volgograd, even though the city was then known as Stalingrad.
Like you, I'm struggling to find the Welsh policy guideline (it took me an hour to find the UK one!), and it's getting late. I'll see if I can find the relevant section tomorrow. The problem with these things is nobody ever adds them to the Naming Conventions, they then get archived, so you finish up having to trawl through pages of stuff. However, as I recall, the gist of it is that the changes in Wales are not so much a change of name; rather a change of spelling, and that we wouldn't, just because we were writing about Edward I, write the rest of the article in the English used during his time, and so should not do so for place names. I suppose that is not all that different from some of the examples above, and is akin to writing that the Vikings developed a settlement at York, even though they would have called it Jorvik. Going back to Edward I again, he took over and rebuilt the castle at Criccieth. Well, he didn't in a historical context, but if we said he took over and rebuilt the castle at Krukeith nobody would have a clue what we were talking about. Skinsmoke (talk) 02:09, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
Until you can find and quote the Welsh policy guideline, could you refrain from eliminating any more references to the historic county names. If you were editing an article about the Teutonic Knights in Konigsberg, would you insist on referring to the town as Kaliningrad ? Or would you refer to Ian Smith as the Prime Minister of Zimbabwe in the 1960s ? Historic references should retain the contemporary name, linked to the modern name where appropriate. RGCorris (talk) 16:49, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
In both the cases you refer to the answer is no, as historical context is significant to which name is used. This was explained perfectly clearly in the paragraphs dated 02:09 on 19 January 2010 above. Where the name is merely a geographic locator, it is more helpful to the reader to be able to find the place on a map. If you can give me an example where I have departed from that rule, I will be happy to hold my hands up and confess (there may, possibly, be the odd one that I got wrong). It is worth noting that you are not being consistent on this: Aberystwyth, for example, is never spelled on these biographical articles as Aberystwith, which was the spelling used at that time; nor is Aberaeron spelled as Aberaryron, which again was the spelling used at the time. There was, however, one ludicrous example that decribed someone being born at Aberteifi in Cardiganshire. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:10, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
I look forward to you locating the Welsh policy guideline. I would be interested to know when the spelling Aberaryron was used ! RGCorris (talk) 17:20, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
Until 1 November 1966 (see A Vision of Britain Through Time). You could also look at the Imperial Gazeteer of England and Wales 1870-1872, which states:-
"ABERAYRON, a small seaport town and a district in Cardigan. The town stands in the parishes of Henfynyw, and Llanddewi-Aberarth, at the mouth of the Ayron river, 16 miles SSW of Aberystwith, and 13 miles NW of Lampeter r. station. It has two piers, enclosing a small harbour, and owns about 40 vessels. It was long a retired village, but has become a market-town and an esteemed watering-place."
That quote also shows the former spelling of Aberystwyth. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:35, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
Aberayron, certainly. But Aberaryron ? RGCorris (talk) 17:59, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
A typo - get over it! Skinsmoke (talk) 18:00, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Ivybridge's population[edit]

Why have you used the 2001 census as the source, rather than the estimate from the council. I understad that there will be greater uncertainty in the estimate, but it is more recent. Jolly Ω Janner 16:22, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi Jolly. Two main reasons. Firstly, the 2001 census figure is used for almost all other settlements in the United Kingdom, and therefore enables comparisons using the same baseline. Secondly, because it is an exact figure (well, as near as an exact figure as we are ever going to get), whereas the estimated figure is just that: a guess, and local authority estimates are notoriously inaccurate as they tend to be based on planning permissions granted, rather than buildings constructed. If there had been a significant change I would have quoted both, but I didn't really think an increase of 4.4 per cent was all that noteworthy. Of course, we will know the truth in a couple of years when the 2011 census figures are released. Skinsmoke (talk) 16:33, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Good reasoning. Thank you for your response. Jolly Ω Janner 16:39, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Cornwall infoboxes[edit]

Hi, just a comment about changing Cornwall Council to Cornwall. If the field in the infobox is for the unitary authority, then a link to Cornwall Council is correct. DuncanHill (talk) 13:53, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

That is not the policy we adopt elsewhere in the United Kingdom. Where the link is to indicate the geography, we link to the local authority area, not to the council. For example, Cheadle is linked to Metropolitan Borough of Stockport, not to Stockport Metropolitan Borough Council; Horsforth to City of Leeds, not to Leeds City Council; Eye to Peterborough, not to Peterborough City Council; Pwllheli to Gwynedd, not to Gwynedd Council. Indeed, in the vast majority of the country, Placename Council has been merged into Placename, as in West Berkshire, Portsmouth, Medway, Cheshire East and East Riding of Yorkshire. The original intention of this field was to link to the local authority area, not to a page detailing the political control of that area, and it may be that confusion has arisen by the adoption of the shorthand term Unitary authority as Unitary authority area caused problems in the layout of the Infobox. Skinsmoke (talk) 14:25, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
So the infobox for a civil parish should have no link to the authority it lies in? That seems to me to make the infobox less useful to readers. Also, by linking to Cornwall in both the unitary authority and the ceremonial county fields gives the false impression that the two are coterminous - they are not, as the Isles of Scilly have had a sui generis authority of their own for many years. Your method requires adding text to the article to make clear what authority a parish lies within, which strikes me as much clumsier and less readable than putting the information in the infobox. DuncanHill (talk) 14:34, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
We are not talking about my method, but the method that is generally in use throughout the United Kingdom. The principal was that the Infobox in a civil parish should have a link to the local government area in which it was located, not the governing body of that area, just as it has a link to the ceremonial county. Before the most recent mad dash to local government centralisation, this was never an issue: there were very few instances where the shire district and shire district council had separate pages; and the ceremonial county field never linked to a county council, only to a county. Nor has it proven a problem in the unitary authorities established up to this latest round, nor in the Welsh principal areas: the counties and county boroughs. The link is always to the local government area. I have yet to see any reason given why this should be changed for the 2008 unitaries, which would then be treated differently to any other local government area in the country. Ultimately, I think you have to ask yourself, what is the general reader expecting to find when following the link. Do they expect to find an article about the area, its population, traditions, history, people, language; or do they expect to find an article detailing how many seats were won or lost by the United Kingdom Independence Party and who had a row about a council logo? I accept that there are difficulties where the unitary authority adopts the name of the ceremonial county, even though it does not cover the same area, but Cornwall is not alone in this. Indeed, Cornwall is perhaps the county (nation?) with the least difference: in the East Riding of Yorkshire the difference is the mighty city of Kingston upon Hull! Skinsmoke (talk) 14:58, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
PS I'll be offline for a few hours, but will catch up on any reply later tonight. Skinsmoke (talk) 14:59, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
I think a reader expects a link to the authority when the link is so labelled as being to the authority. The unitary authority in this case is Cornwall Council - Cornwall is not a unitary authority. I think they would expect to find out about the history, traditions etc in the ceremonial county link, conveniently located just below the unitary authority link. DuncanHill (talk) 15:07, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Rather than us argue it out here, I've asked what other editors think we should be linking to at Template talk:Infobox UK place. Incidentally, legally Cornwall is the unitary authority. Cornwall Council is the governing body of the unitary authority. And yes, there are two different things: Cornwall, the unitary authority and Cornwall the ceremonial county. The same anomaly exists in Durham, East Riding of Yorkshire, Shropshire and Wiltshire. Skinsmoke (talk) 19:49, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Actually, the SI says that "Cornwall Council" is the authority, not "Cornwall". DuncanHill (talk) 22:37, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Actually the Statutory Instrument doesn't use the term Unitary Authority at all and refers to Cornwall Council being a local government authority and the sole principal authority for Cornwall. As far as legislation is concerned, Cornwall is a District:-
"For the purposes of enactments relating to local government, there shall be a new district, whose area shall be co-terminous with that of Cornwall; and the name of that new district shall be Cornwall."
Unitary Authority is the term we use on Wikipedia to describe those Districts which are not Shire Districts or Metropolitan Districts, and which exercise the functions of both a County and a District, but it has no legal meaning whatever in terms of English local government. Skinsmoke (talk) 23:42, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Which doesn't change my point that the authority is Cornwall Council, not Cornwall. Nor does it address the difference between the Lord Lieutenancy area ("Ceremonial County") and the administrative area ("Cornwall").The SI says "Cornwall" but does not include the Isles of Scilly (rightly, they've never, afaik, been adminstered as part of the County of Cornwall). I think the problem is that the infobox as used is not appropriate for indicating either the administrative or the historical and geographical context. It tries and fails to do both. There should be an administrative section, with links to councils, constituencies, regions etc, and a geographical section with links to areas e.g. historical, ceremonial counties. DuncanHill (talk) 23:52, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Be careful not to assume too much into the wording of the legislation. Such legislation uses, when it's drafted correctly, very tightly defined phrases. The phrase local government authority has been defined in previous legislation, as has principal authority. So, incidentally, has Cornwall in the sense that it is used in the Statutory Instrument, though there is another definition in the legislation that established ceremonial counties, as we call them on Wikipedia, or lieutenancies as they are called in the legislation. Legislation, however, does not define the language we use on Wikipedia, where we are often a hell of a lot less precise, though on occasions we can be downright pedantic!
I think you are correct when you say that the problem is the UK Infobox itself (and probably the wording we use on it as well). As you have undoubtedly noticed, this and the discussion on "Distance to Dublin" have broadened out into a much wider discussion, involving the possibility of replacing UK Infobox and Ireland Infobox with a new Infobox to be used for both countries, and the idea of specifically linking to an article on the Council is something that could well be considered there (but remember, very few local government areas have a separate article for the Council; they often redirect to, or have been merged into, the article on the area). I would tend to shy away from any mention of historical counties if I was you: it's a subject which is fraught with undercurrents and agendas, not to mention complications in defining what boundary changes are covered or aren't! Skinsmoke (talk) 00:16, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
As you've already declared and acted upon a consensus to go your way, I'm out of the discussion and removing this page from my watchlist. DuncanHill (talk) 02:36, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
As yours was the only alternate view, I would consider that to be a consensus. You were in a minority of one. Skinsmoke (talk) 02:38, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


I have linked some news articles to show use of Indian English spellings, in accordance to your comments.--Redtigerxyz Talk 12:31, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that. It is by no means within my field of knowledge, but it certainly strengthens your case for a move. Skinsmoke (talk) 15:59, 7 February 2010 (UTC)


I have responded here Talk:Scapegoat#Requested_move --Penbat (talk) 22:01, 7 February 2010 (UTC)


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Sarah Brown move request[edit]

You have recently participated in a discussion about moving Sarah Brown (spouse). The request has been modified so please revisit it here for further discussion if you care. — AjaxSmack 02:23, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Santiago Stock Exchange[edit]

Skinsmoke, I think you raised some very valid issues with the move of Bolsa de Comercio de Santiago. I've collected a variety of sources to answer your concerns; let me know if there's anything else that has to be done for you to reconsider your opposition.Erudy (talk) 15:53, 18 February 2010 (UTC)


Thanks for giving your comments at Talk:Daśāvatāra#Requested_move. As per the consensus: The result of the proposal was move to nondiacritic for the article. Several alternatives have been presented for this particular article (Dashavatara, Dasavatara, Dashavatar) so please help pick an appropriate one. Thanks. --Redtigerxyz Talk 13:50, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Undid revision 351720713 by Skinsmoke per[edit]

I used to have a "Pricilla" that worked for me. Drove me nuts at payroll time. I'm very suspicious of the facebook page. Out of 4170 Google hits, two are for the spelling "Priscilla and Kurt" and 4168 are for "Pricilla and Kurt". The Facebook page is the only place that uses the "Priscilla" spelling, so I suspect forgery. I've reverted you for now. If you find something to make it look like I got it wrong, go ahead and correct me.—Kww(talk) 14:57, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

My source is the official CD issued by the Malta PBS of the contest entrants, backed up by The Official Website of the Eurovision Song Contest : Maltese Finalists Announced Skinsmoke (talk) 21:35, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Aha, it's the "&". Compare to"Priscilla+%26+Kurt"&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t —Kww(talk) 21:49, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
I believe you, and have already reverted myself.—Kww(talk) 22:17, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
If it's any help, I think the original error occurred in the initial press release issued by Malta PBS announcing the contestants and songs. It had a couple of spelling mistakes, both of which have been circulated widely on the web (as these things are). Skinsmoke (talk) 22:21, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Naming conventions for places in Wales[edit]

Hi Skinsmoke, about a year ago you contributed to a debate I started on naming conventions for places in Wales. At the time, I think we agreed that 'regional' descriptors weren't generally useful when describing Welsh towns. However, User:Welshleprechaun has made an edit on Swansea Cork ferry which I believe opens the issue up again.[1] I'd welcome your input in the discussion at Talk:Swansea Cork ferry so that we can nail this down one way or the other.--Pondle (talk) 22:07, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

2010 Merano train derailment[edit]

Thank you for kindly reminding me of something I read some time ago; I thought that using also Italian names could be helpful since in the external links I added (from important newspapers), the names of the villages are written only in Italian. I'll save the section you found for me.--Broletto (talk) 16:12, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Must admit, I think we got the convention wrong, but you can't please everyone all the time... Skinsmoke (talk) 16:15, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


Could you please not edit my archive as you did here as the chances are I might miss the comment so please use my talk page best Mo ainm~Talk 10:46, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Apologies. I had forgotten I had gone into the Archive, and thought I was still on your Talk page. It was getting late! Of course, if I had realised, I would have opened a new section on the Talk page. Skinsmoke (talk) 15:02, 16 April 2010 (UTC)


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Hello, Skinsmoke. You have new messages at Mo ainm's talk page.
Message added 16:09, 16 April 2010 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Mo ainm~Talk 16:09, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Template:Civil parishes in County Durham[edit]

Hi. Just letting you know out of courtesy that I've created this navbox today, and will be adding it to your list page and to at least some of the relevant parishes, starting with the Darlington section. Please let me know if there are any initial problems, so that I can put it right. Of course I'll leave the updates to you, should you wish to do it.--Storye book (talk) 11:49, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, which is appreciated. However, it isn't my list page - we don't really "own" things on Wikipedia (though we may pay particular attention to certain pages). Good template. Think the note at the bottom about North Yorkshire needs a bit of clarification (we know it refers to Stockton on Tees, but the average reader probably won't). It might be an idea to change the layout slightly. Instead of Unparished and Parished, why not have Towns, Parishes and Unparished Areas (Cities for the few counties that have parishes holding city status, as well)? For the unparished areas, I would be inclined to just show, for example, Consett, rather than Consett Urban District. I am in the (rather slow) process of revamping the List of civil parishes in... pages, so you may like to take a look at List of civil parishes in Cheshire for the new look, which appears to have been generally favourably received. I have treated the unparished areas slightly differently, incorporating them into the main list and, where a former area has been partly parished, using more understandable unparished area definitions (Neston (parished), Burton (unparished) and Willaston (unparished) are an example for the former Neston Urban District). The metropolitan counties are all done, and I'm working through the north of England at the moment (well, to be honest, I've been stuck part way through Lancashire for a couple of months, but I will get back to it! see User:Skinsmoke/Sandbox/Civil parishes/Lancashire). Skinsmoke (talk) 13:28, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Eek. Thanks for your very comprehensive reply. Yes I know it's not really yours; I was just acknowledging that you edit it. I'm not a geographer, though, and my worry is that although I'm willing to have a go at readjusting it according to your suggestions, I fear I could make it worse by making mistakes. This template, as you will have noticed, is a straight copy of the list article, because I didn't trust myself to make new decisions. The main issue is that I'm Kentish, living in Yorks, so I don't really have the feel of Durham. I had been writing articles about a few villages/hamlets near Darlington, and wanted to make it a bit more obvious which were parishes and which weren't. Another problem is that this was to be my last major task before clearing my Wiki desk before the exam season - so if I add serious errors by guessing which are towns and which are parishes, I might not be around to quickly pick up complaints. If it's OK with you, I'll continue adding the template to relevant parishes as far as I can, then I'll change just the elements which I feel I can do without too much risk of error. I hope that's OK?--Storye book (talk) 13:45, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Of course it's OK. If (no, when) I ever get round to Durham I may have a look at the template and see what I can do with it, if you don't mind. I may even get round to copying the idea for the counties where I've already revamped the pages, but that's some time off! Don't worry too much about the towns — the notations that have been added appear pretty reliable. I've been checking them on the counties I've revamped, and they seem to be correct, so I would assume Durham is right too. Good luck with the exams — you should be revising, not wasting your life away on Wikipedia (hehe)! Skinsmoke (talk) 13:54, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
I think I've done all I can now on this template, unless anyone alerts me to other errors. It's now on every appropriate article, as far as I know. I've followed your original advice as far as I can. I've created the subheadings as suggested, but I'm not sure whether Headland and Preston on Tees are towns in their own right, or just part of other towns; I listed them as towns to see if anyone else unlists them or not. I clarified the note about Stockton on Tees borough at the bottom, but it needs checking. As for the exams: well for my sins I get to be the examiner these days, so it's less a matter of revising than making space for all the piles of paper that come in the door.--Storye book (talk) 18:53, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Looks good. I've checked on the two parishes you weren't sure of. Headland is a town (defined very simply by whether the parish council has declared itself to be a town!); Preston on Tees isn't. I've corrected the template for you. Good luck with the marking then, and hope you find a couple of howlers to liven it up! My favourite, which had my geography teacher in hysterics as she was marking mock O levels, was "The lake is surrounded by carniverous trees". Skinsmoke (talk) 20:49, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Ha! Just had a look at your User Page, and then your photos, and realised I've used at least one of them on List of civil parishes in West Yorkshire! Skinsmoke (talk) 20:56, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for correcting the template. Couldn't find any of my photos on the West Yorkshire page, but maybe it was a Geograph one that I uploaded and then forgot about. Re the exams: I mark several subjects including English GCSE. The best questions to mark are the creative writing questions where the candidates get a chance to show a sense of humour. One year they had the choice of writing an advert for a car, aimed at a young male audience. The candidates were from schools across the UK, but most of them over-emphasized the cupholders - obviously tongue in cheek. It was hilarious. There hasn't been such a good exam question since.--Storye book (talk) 22:00, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
I can imagine! The pic is used to illustrate Baildon, by the way. Skinsmoke (talk) 22:53, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Ah, the museum. Nice to know it's being used.--Storye book (talk) 12:17, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Los Angeles which you may be interested in. It is a consolidated discussion related to neighborhood moves discussed at Talk:Bunker Hill, Los Angeles, California, Talk:Angelino Heights, Los Angeles, Talk:Warner Center, Los Angeles, and other places. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you, Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 17:10, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Have added my twopennyworth! Skinsmoke (talk) 00:32, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Question on ship move comment[edit]

At Talk:MS Caribbean Princess#Requested move, you had listed oppose and gave the naming convention as a reason. Are you refering to WP:NC-SHIPS? If so, can you help clarify what part of the guideline you are using? The way I read it "A ship not known by a prefix should appear under its name only, if that is unambiguous". As the ship builder website, the cruise line website, and all but one ref in the article all seem to omit the prefix - it seems that this does fall into the category of a ship not known by its prefix. If you're using a different line in that guideline, can you help point it out, because I may be overlooking it. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 00:14, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

You are now a Reviewer[edit]

Redaktor Wikipedia 600px.png

Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, will be commencing a two-month trial at approximately 23:00, 2010 June 15 (UTC).

Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not autoconfirmed to articles placed under flagged protection. Flagged protection is applied to only a small number of articles, similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial.

When reviewing, edits should be accepted if they are not obvious vandalism or BLP violations, and not clearly problematic in light of the reason given for protection (see Wikipedia:Reviewing process). More detailed documentation and guidelines can be found here.

If you do not want this userright, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. Courcelles (talk) 21:16, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Italian placenames[edit]

OK, have you got a link to this discussion? If it was well-attended and came to a clear consensus, there would be no point rehashing it. Knepflerle (talk) 11:19, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

It took some searching, but I have found the discussion that resulted in the change at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names)/Archives/2009/August. And it was, indeed, about a year ago! There were only about seven contributors, but it was extremely wide ranging and most contributors changed their positions during the discussion to reach a consensus. It was actually a fairly good example of how such discussions should work on Wikipedia (for once!). Skinsmoke (talk) 12:41, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Thanks! Having read that, there's a good case for moving all the relevant articles. It's a lot of articles, but is should be straightforward to write a script for this, so it's almost certainly worth putting a request in at WP:BOTREQ. Knepflerle (talk) 18:07, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
I'd actually made a start this afternoon, though only managed about three provinces (only about 97 to go!). Not had any experience of bot requests – do you want to go ahead and put in a request? I've found articles at Placename, Italy; Placename, Province Code; Placename, Municipality; and Placename, Province so far. Skinsmoke (talk) 18:55, 30 June 2010 (UTC)


It's interesting you're approaching it from a usage angle, 'cuz that's different than the way I was approaching it. I was approaching it on primarily a general naming conventions argument, with the additional argument that it was moved from O'Hare International Airport to Chicago O'Hare International Airport by one guy with no discussion. I did go to Google and Google Scholar to see which one was more hit; hopefully they'll be enough for you to support my argument Purplebackpack89 15:36, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I almost certainly don't disagree with you on this one, and a simple Google search is probably enough to convince me in this case. There isn't usually a difference between the two angles, except where disambiguation comes into play, as the naming conventions generally state that we should use the most common version used in English. Skinsmoke (talk) 15:40, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Not to be a bugaboo, but could you place your above comments on the O'Hare talk page? :-D Thanks, Purplebackpack89 22:56, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Done better than that. You now have a pretty convincing case. Well done! Skinsmoke (talk) 07:07, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Ulster Scots people requested move[edit]

You recently participated in a move request at Talk:Ulster Scots people. The rationale for the move was not presented in the nomination but had been previously discussed on the talk page. If you care, please reply to my comment or to the rationale in general. Thanks. — AjaxSmack 03:12, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Skinsmoke (talk) 15:44, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Vietnamese place names[edit]

Hey—I replied to you on my talk page. Discussion is underway at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Vietnam#Diacritics, as you've seen. Is there a specific way we need to inform others that this is taking place? --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 02:49, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Replied on your Talk page. Skinsmoke (talk) 03:19, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Hey, I've cleaned up the "In a nutshell" section in the diacritics discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Vietnam#Diacritics. When you get the chance, please indicate your support or opposition to each consensus point to allow us to determine which points have the most support. I've also added a note to the effect that, for now, these points do not constitute a formal proposal, but just indicate where we're at in our discussion. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 14:34, 15 July 2010 (UTC)


What do you think about: Economic relations between mainland China and Africa

The talk page is quiet, and there's only one other person opposed to the name switch (out of 5 votes). Just trying to put down some consensus. Ocaasi (talk) 01:21, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I think we need to be very careful with this one. There has been an enormous amount of edit warring in the past over the use of the term China, which eventually resulted in a consensus being reached. This is set out at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese), which states:
Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. Text should treat the Republic of China as a sovereign state with equal status with the People's Republic of China. Text should not take a position on whether they are considered separate nations. Text should not imply that Taiwan is either a part of China or not a part of China. Text should not imply that Taiwan is a part of the People's Republic of China. Text should not imply that mainland China, Hong Kong, and/or Macau are part of the Republic of China. As a general rule of thumb, the official political terms "People's Republic of China" or "PRC" and "Republic of China" or "ROC" should be used in political contexts (that is, to describe the existing governments or regimes) rather than the imprecise and politically charged terms "China" and "Taiwan." For example, "Hu Jintao is the President of the People's Republic of China" is preferred over "Hu Jintao is the President of China." Likewise, one should write "one must be an ROC citizen to vote in the ROC presidential election" as opposed to "one must be a Taiwanese citizen to vote in the Taiwanese presidential election."
The article is clearly about the People's Republic of China's relations with Africa. The Republic of China (Taiwan) barely gets a mention. It is for that reason I think we have to use the formal term, lengthy though it may be. It's not, incidentally, that it is "too forky" to suggest that "Taiwan is not really a part of China"; more that it violates our overriding principle of taking a neutral point of view. And you can be sure it would be contested by some readers in both Chinas!
On your other point, I don't really have a problem with the use of relations. To me, that is the normal word we would use in English. Skinsmoke (talk) 01:41, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
I read through the debates on naming and see how contentious it became. I think Economic relations between the People's Republic of China and Africa will be better (at least my choice). I didn't mean to get into the geopolitical stuff, anyway. Thanks for the link/info. Ocaasi (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:03, 13 July 2010 (UTC).
More than happy with that. I could see mega problems arising! Skinsmoke (talk) 09:05, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Katyn move[edit]

One day, when I've got enough time to sus how to do it, I'll get round to it. Skinsmoke (talk) 18:23, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done it wasn't as hard as I thought! Skinsmoke (talk) 19:21, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply--request for some advice[edit]

Hi, Perhaps you can help me with this comment. I'm not sure what it means or how to fix it...yikes! It's a banner on the Tiger Dunlop page:

This article uses bare URLs in its references. Please use proper citations containing each referenced work's title, author, date, and source, so that the article remains verifiable in the future Thanks in advance for your time.CJ_WeißSchäfer 16:46, 15 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by CJ3370 (talkcontribs)

No problem. I've done the first one for you, to give you an idea how we show a citation on Wikipedia. Done this way, in the References you see the actual name and subject of the website referred to, rather than the Internet address. This means that, if it subsequently changes to another website (for example, if the owner changes Internet Service Provider), and the link becomes a dead one, it is easy to search to see if the page still exists elsewhere on the Internet, so that the citation can be updated. You should also show the date that you accessed the site, to give an indication of how recently the link has been checked.
There are various ways of showing the link in a citation, and none is right or wrong. I always prefer the style I have shown, as it is very easy and simple to do, but there is a template you can use (I've never really got my head round it, as I think it looks unnecessarily confusing to the editor adding it). More information is at Wikipedia:Referencing for beginners, Wikipedia:Citing sources, Help:Citations quick reference and Wikipedia:Citation templates. You may also find Help:Footnotes useful.
Hope this is some help to you. If you've any more questions, don't hesitate to ask. If I know the answer, I'll be happy to provide it; if not I'll find somewhere or someone that can help.
Once you've sorted out the citations, don't forget to remove the warning banner from the top of the page, marking the action history Citation style fixed Yes check.svg Done, or something similar. Skinsmoke (talk) 19:50, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Another question Thanks so much for the example. That was what I needed to get started. I think I've fixed the urls, but there doesn't appear to be a way to clear the banner. Is that a user privilege that I don't have as a newbee? CJ_WeißSchäfer 02:18, 16 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by CJ3370 (talkcontribs)

If you open the edit page, the second line shows {{bare links}}. Just delete it. I've also introduced you to a new trick on the page. Where you have more than one citation from the same source, just lump them all under a single citation. To do this, chose a suitable ref name (I've chosen "heron"). The first citation you show as normal, except that instead of the opening <ref>, you put <ref name="heron">. For every subsequent citation, instead of having to put the full citation in, you just put <ref name="heron"/>. Not only does that make your life easier, but it also links everything together in the References section. I've done it for the Herontrips references for you, so you can see what it looks like. Skinsmoke (talk) 03:03, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Map copywrite infringement on Tiger Dunlop[edit]

Thanks so much for the heads wasn't quite so clear from the website where I copied the map...yes it is a nice one. But another will do as well and not get me into trouble. I will have a look at the site you recommend and see if I can come up with something suitable. CJ_WeißSchäfer 14:45, 16 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by CJ3370 (talkcontribs)

Bellicosity in the Land of the Tribal Horsemen[edit]

I mean War in Afghanistan (disambiguation)War in Afghanistan. Personally I think it should be called either Afghanistan War or Afghan War. You'll notice that they currently redirect to War in Afghanistan. That preposition in is an abuse of language. In the past it was Korea War, Vietnam War, Falklands War... but in these modern days it is War "in" Iraq, War "in" Afghanistan. This kind politically correct grammar euphemism is quite irksome. But language evolves, and people tend not to say "excavation instrument" when they can say "spade", so you can bet it will be dropped in the future. If you're into that kind of things you can read (or re-read) Orwell's essay on politics and the english language. walk victor falk talk 04:57, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I tend to call a spade a shovel. Skinsmoke (talk) 05:00, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 :) walk victor falk talk 05:04, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Miranda, Italy[edit]

Hi! I noticed you moved the page Miranda, Italy to Miranda, Liguria. Now I moved it to Miranda, Molise because it isn't in region Liguria, but in Molise (as you can see in the map, they are very far from each other). Best regards, Von Vikken (talk) 20:40, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Edit: same thing for Pizzone, Liguria, moved to Pizzone, Molise. -- Von Vikken (talk) 21:29, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that! I've been working through a whole pile of these and the previous province I'd been dealing with was in Liguria. Afraid the Italian regions were begining to swim before my eyes. Thanks for sorting that out. I'll go into the disambiguation pages and redirects and put those right too! Skinsmoke (talk) 23:38, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
No problem! Feel free to ask me everything about Italy, I'll help you if I can! Bye! -- Von Vikken (talk) 13:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Borgo (Lazio)[edit]

Hallo Skinsmoke

sorry to disturb you, I am writing about this redirect. Borgo is one of the original 14 historic quarters (rioni) of Rome. All over Italy there are hundreds, if not thousands, quarters and frazioni which bear the same name. You can google a little bit to discover it. Just to make an example of a town which I know well, the ancient part of Nocera Umbra, is called il Borgo. This means that this redirect is - at the best - ambiguous ,and therefore senseless. Moreover, a rione is a part of a city (Rome), not of a region (Latium), therefore it should be superordinated to the city. If we want really to be precise, then we should rename the article to Rione Borgo (Rome), and then rename accordingly all the other Rioni. I hope you got my point. Cheers from the Eternal City, Alex2006 (talk) 11:27, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Don't worry about disturbing me. On Wikipedia we determine disambiguation terms by what other articles we have; not by what potential articles there may be. We have articles on just two places called Borgo: one in Corsica, France; and one in Lazio, Italy. We have plenty of articles with Borgo as part of the name (18 in total): Borgo Santa Lucia in Campania; Borgo Tossignano and Borgo Val di Taro in Emilia–Romagna; Borgo Velino in Lazio; Borgo di Terzo, Borgo Priolo, Borgo San Giacomo, Borgo San Giovanni and Borgo San Siro in Lombardy; Borgo Pace in Marche; Borgo d'Ale, Borgo San Dalmazzo, Borgo San Martino, Borgo Ticino and Borgo Vercelli in Piedmont; Borgo Valsugana in Trentino–Alto Adige/Südtirol; and Borgo a Mozzano and Borgo San Lorenzo in Tuscany. However, all those 18 are pre-disambiguated (their name is not simply Borgo).
The example you gave in Nocera Umbra is somewhat irrelevant. Firstly, it is in Umbria, but more importantly we have no article about it, there is no redirect to it, and it isn't even mentioned in the article on Nocera Umbra. For the purposes of disambiguation, it is therefore irrelevant. However, in the unlikely event that an article was created, it would be under Borgo, Umbria.
If subsequently there was another article created for a Borgo in Lazio then, under the naming convention for Italy, the articles would be named under the Placename, Province format. If we had two within the province of Roma, then we would move to the Placename, Comune format.
As it is we only have to differentiate between two places in Lazio: Borgo and Borgo Velino.
One final point is that disambiguating by parentheses is deprecated for placenames, unlike (I think) on Italian Wikipedia. Your suggestion of Rione Borgo (Rome) would therefore be Rione Borgo, Rome. However, with the Rione in the title, there would be no need to disambiguate at all. There may well be an argument that all the rioni should be titled Rione Placename, but I am not sure you would find widespread support for that. We do not title articles on frazioni as, for example Frazione Borgo Santa Lucia, nor do we title articles on comuni as, for example, Comune Borgo Velino. I would hazard a guess that such a proposal would be met with widespread opposition. Skinsmoke (talk) 13:48, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Borgo, Lazio listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Borgo, Lazio. Since you had some involvement with the Borgo, Lazio redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion (if you have not already done so). Bridgeplayer (talk) 17:23, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Comments re steamtown[edit]

Thanks for your input re Steamtown - please see comments on ME2's talk page - am appreciative of your attempts to mediate Sulzer55 (talk) 11:13, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

De facto standard[edit]

What Rmhermen was referring to when (s)he wrote "De facto standard titling used in many other articles" was that almost all the Allied bombing articles have that extension to the name eg Bombing of Hamburg in World War II, Bombing of Cologne in World War II, while the German bombings mostly have the name Blitz in the name Coventry Blitz, Southampton Blitz etc. -- PBS (talk) 04:53, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

High speed rail in China[edit]

This definitely needs a full discussion if you want to move it (and thus I've reverted your move). -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 02:23, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

On the contrary, the move was in line with Wikipedia's policy on naming articles about China. The original title wasn't. I have given you a full explanation at Talk:High-speed rail in China. Of course, you could always get round the naming problem by writing a section about high-speed rail in the Republic of China and including it in the article. Skinsmoke (talk) 09:38, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
I'd like you to make a proper move request for Passenger Rail Transport in China as well on the same grounds. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 14:15, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Why? This is not a controversial move and is in accordance with the Wikipedia policy. It is you who are going against policy. A move request that is not likely to be controversial does not need to go through the Request Moves procedure. Wikipedia:Requested moves states: In some situations the appropriateness of a move may be under dispute, and discussion is necessary in order to reach a consensus. There is no obligation to list such move requests here; this page may be seen as a place to advertise move debates that would benefit from wider community input, or for users to request assistance from administrators in moving pages. You should explain why you think the move is controversial. Skinsmoke (talk) 14:27, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Per the Uncontroversial requests section of that article. It states in bold letters "If there has been any past debate about the best title for the page, or if anyone could reasonably disagree with the move, then treat it as controversial." I'm disagreeing so you'll need to go through the process. In terms of Wikipedia 'rules' your new proposed title breaks the consise term of WP:TITLE and calling the PRC 'China' is fairly clearly its WP:COMMONNAME. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 14:34, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Nine Years War[edit]

You changed a mention of "Pondicherry" in this article to read "Puducherry". I've changed it back and I’ve opened a discussion here. Xyl 54 (talk) 23:05, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

What is the world coming to!!!![edit]

You stated on the article Cawston, Warwickshire that I do not know my east from my west!

We'll sir in this case you were right. How embarassing! The worst thing is that I did a geography degree! The state of the British education system eh? ;-) Cls14 (talk) 13:54, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

East...West...wherever... For some reason nobody ever gets north and south mixed up, but we all seem to slip up on east and west! The only way I remember it is that on the points of a compass it spells WE! Don't worry about it, the comment was supposed to be humerous rather than seriously admonishing. I was actually looking for the village on Ordnance Survey Election maps and using the description as a guide for where to look. On a hunch, when I couldn't find it, I thought "wonder if they mean west?" Skinsmoke (talk) 21:38, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Don't worry, I understood the humour. For the N-E-S-W I myself prefer the old Never Eat Shredded Wheat or Naught Elephants Squirt Water! Cls14 (talk) 09:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
If it's any consolation, in my mock French A-Level, many years ago, I spelt cinq as sank! What was that about? Skinsmoke (talk) 13:40, 5 August 2010 (UTC)


Just to let you know i reverted your edit on the Castlerock article where you removed the translation source from the infobox and inputed the Irish translation into the lede. We have an agreed practice over at the Ireland manual of style that states that as Irish is not official in Northern Ireland and many places don't actual use it, then places that are of Irish origin will have an derive tag after the placename in the lede, for example Belfast ot Tobermore - however places that aren't of Irish origin such as Castlerock don't as obviously it isn;t of Irish origin. Though if there is a modern Irish translation of a place not of Irish origin available it is listed (along with source) into the infobox. Thus i have reverted the article to this agreed practice.Mabuska (talk) 18:07, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Skinsmoke (talk) 21:39, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Move discussion for Dir En Grey[edit]

You are invited to participate in the discussion about a requested move of the article Dir En Grey back to Dir en grey. mx3 15:36, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Basingstoke and Deane[edit]

Hi, I reverted your edit about naming not because you were wrong, but because this is the reason the council cited for the name. Mighty Antar (talk) 16:58, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your note. In that case, the council's claim should be shown, along with the fact that it is incorrect. My understanding (though it is only a vague memory) was that Deane was chosen because it is located in the exact centre of the borough. The council could, of course, be claiming that Deane has the smallest area, but even then Popham appears to be, and Newtown is definitely, smaller. Without any citation from the council to justify their somewhat ambiguous claim, it seems difficult to see how it can be reliable.
The council's website actually contradicts itself. Headcounts shows that Deane does not have the smallest population.
Can I suggest that the wording is changed to: The council claims that the new title included the names of the largest town and smallest village in the borough, although there are eight civil parishes with populations smaller than Deane. Skinsmoke (talk) 20:26, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

If you think the change in wording will benefit anything, then go ahead, personally I think you're being over analytical, "smallest village" is an ambiguous claim but not an entirely unreasonable one, they may have considered Popham and Newtown and the others as hamlets rather than villages - they may have picked Deane because of it's central spot in the Borough, I really don't know, I suspect a 1978/79 guidebook might tell you or may simply repeat what they state on their website, that it's because Deane is the smallest village in the Borough - they don't define village or qualify "smallest". Mighty Antar (talk) 00:53, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

List of civil parishes in Cambridgeshire[edit]

I saw you had recently edited List of civil parishes in Cambridgeshire list and removed the column list; your edit-summary was common format throughout List of civil parishes in England. Cool. Fair enough. I accept my tags were not common; they were not unique though. No problem with your edit. With my POV hat on, I feel it would be easier to find the parish I am interested in when reading the list; personal viewpoint of course. Would you object if I one day (soon) collated the lists in the Cambs. list into a sectioned-sortable table similar to Worcs (though the Worcs. tables are not sortable) with a view to (a lot later when I am sure I have the refs to back it all up) converting it into a sortable table similar to Cheshire or even better, created ONE sortable table for England by transcluding from each list?

--Senra (Talk) 19:11, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi thanks for your note. I don't think it's particularly helpful for the lists to go off in a hundred different directions, which is why I reverted your change. I think it would be better if we tried to move to a common format throughout the English and Welsh lists. As an experiment, and after discussion with a few editors who had been involved in drawing up some of the lists, I introduced a new format for the metropolitan counties (Greater Manchester, Merseyside, Tyne and Wear, South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire and West Midlands), which appears to have gone down quite well. They are certainly an improvement on what is there at present for the rest of the country. I have since expanded that to Cheshire, and it has been partly copied in Somerset, though I have reservations about the way it has been done there: the images concentrate far too much on parish churches (is there nothing else of interest in Somerset?); the attempt to include geographic coordinates has broken the page; and keeping the page broken down into district lists prevents the sortable format that you seem to be aiming for.
I would suggest that if you want to do something with Cambridgeshire, it would be best to follow the Cheshire/metropolitan counties format. It does take a while to do it properly though! I have been working on Lancashire for months! Perhaps get the table up and running, and the images can be added at a later date? it's the images that take the time, as I find it involves searching Geograph for decent images (those on Geograph are free of copyright restrictions, and can be tied to an individual parish by comparing the location map on Geograph with the parish boundaries at Ordnance Survey Election Maps), and then trying to get a mix that gives a representative view of the county as a whole. I try to ensure a mix of churches, chapels, castles, stately homes, industrial architecture, agriculture, bridges, rivers, canals, hills, streetscapes, markets, town halls, shops, cityscapes, sculpture, coastal scenery, beaches, cliffs, meadows, farms, local customs, snowscenes, etc. It's bloody hard work! It is quite rewarding though!
I have some doubts whether even this format will work for the counties with the largest numbers of parishes. Even Cheshire with 332 parishes and 10 unparished areas takes a while to load, but Suffolk has 475 parishes and 2 unparished areas; Lincolnshire has 592 parishes plus 7 unparished areas; Norfolk has 540 parishes and 3 unparished areas; and North Yorkshire has a mind boggling 783 parishes and 6 unparished areas. The rest of the country should be OK as they have fewer than Cheshire, though I haven't yet worked out the figures for the South West (Devon, and maybe Dorset, could be a problem). Wales will certainly have to be split, probably along preserved counties, or maybe the principal areas).
I hadn't seen the abomination that had been made of Cornwall. I can see no reason why we need two lists for the same thing, one purporting to be pre 2009 (it isn't), and I have my doubts about the Worcestershire list (which the creator of seems to have lost interest in part way through, for some peculiar reason!).
Incidentally, I have now got all the population figures for Cambridgeshire in Excel format (even the latest new parish in Peterborough), if it's any help for you. I could Email it to you if you want. Similarly, the references to back those up (basically, one citation for each district's parishes; plus individual citations for each unparished area and parish created since the 2001 census).
Finally, I think the idea of one sortable list for England may be almost impossible. It seems to be the links that cause the problem with page size/loading. It would be a massive page, and I suspect it just wouldn't work. It's worth noting that all these pages originally started off as a single List of civil parishes in England that, as it grew, had to be divided up into sub-pages. Then the problems started!
Let me know what you think. Skinsmoke (talk) 01:54, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Census data with refs for Cambridgeshire would be magic, thank you; sure send via email. I am prepared to have a crack at creating a sortable table for Cambridgeshire in my user-space and see how far and how quickly I can do it; issue I have is a growing list of other committments. Like a dog with a bone, I still think the change I made to Cambridgeshires list was for the better; if you agree but would like consistency, I am prepared to slice through all the countines with sectioned lists and convert them to sectioned multi-column lists --Senra (Talk) 10:18, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I've made some suggestions to Senra. Dr. Blofeld 12:49, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


Excellent work on this article. I've nominated it for GA. The only outstanding issue I see is maybe you need to seperate the publisher info from the title in some of the referenced url links that feature using cite web that's all. Dr. Blofeld 21:45, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments on Aberdaron. Any suggestions or contributions are always welcome. I keep going in from time to time and tweaking it. Could you give me an example of what you mean on the referenced url links, and I'll see what I can do.
I've added a comment to yours at Senra on the civil parishes, which you may care to have a look at. Skinsmoke (talk) 22:56, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Sortable tables[edit]

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List of civil parishes in Cornwall[edit]

See also discussion in Talk:List of civil parishes in Cornwall#A recent history merge.

Hi, I noticed that on your request that List of civil parishes in Cornwall (pre-2009) was merged into List of civil parishes in Cornwall. Although I agree fully with your above statement that the pre-2009 article was not fit for purpose, after discussion at WikiProject Cornwall we agreed that original version at List of civil parishes in Cornwall was the most up-to-date and should remain on that page. I have asked the admin who carried out the merging to see if they can revert it and then I think a better course of action would be to consider whether we either improve or delete the pre-2009 article. One of the main problems we had with how the information was presented on the (now) pre-2009 article was the inclusion of the former Municipal Borough and Rural/Urban Districts in the Notes section - as Cornwall became a unitary authority, people might assume these were the former District Councils that the UA replaced - therefore a split would be needed to preserve this info. (Sorry if that all seems confusing, after the merge it's hard to be clear about which version/page I'm talking about, please ask if you need clarification)

On another note I agree that a common format would be good for the List of civil parishes in x for England and Wales. I see that there have been some discussions on various Users' talk pages on this - would it be best to have a discussion on this in a centralised location so all editors of List of civil parishes in x could contribute and be aware of it, if it ever gets rolled out? Perhaps on Talk:List of civil parishes in England? Cheers, Zangar (talk) 14:19, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The main problem here is that the changes were done by cut-and-paste, which for copyright reasons, is not acceptable. As I stated in my nomination of the article for repair, any changes could have been made to the original page. It didn't help that the page was moved to a title that simply didn't make sense (the list was not pre-2009, as it had been updated to include the parishes created since then). Nor was the information on the Isles of Scilly correct (although there are no parish councils, the civil parishes legally exist). Only those civil parishes with a population greater than 300 are required to have a parish council; those over 100 people can have them; those under cannot unless it is a joint parish council with adjoining parishes. The lists maintained by various local authority websites tend to be misleading, as they only tend to list parish councils!
There has been considerable discussion of the format that is best for the lists over the last two years. Consensus was that the former urban districts/rural districts/municipal boroughs/county boroughs should be included, as, on the whole, these existed for eighty years, and they are of particular use for people trying to trace roots through genealogy. Although Cornwall (like Shropshire, Wiltshire, Durham etc) has subsequently gone through a further reorganisation, the 1974 districts lasted only for about 35 years. However, if it is felt that these should be additionally included as a guide, there may be a couple of solutions.
Having got these lists to a common format, I have been working on improving the format, again following discussion with a number of editors who have been involved in various parts of the country in the past. The new format has so far been rolled out at Greater Manchester, Tyne and Wear, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, West Midlands and Cheshire. I am currently working on Cambridgeshire and Lancashire, but it takes time. These are to the format that has been favoured for articles achieving featured list status (though I have not yet had the patience/courage/determination to add alt image captions, and nobody else seems to be bothered adding them!). A slightly different format, which achieved featured list status, has been tried by another editor at Somerset, though the inclusion of geographic coordinates appears to have broken the page, and it has subsequently lost its featured list status. A completely different format has been started at Worcestershire, though the editor concerned seems to have lost interest part-way through.
Consideration was given, particularly for the new large unitary authorities, to breaking up the lists by alphabetical subheadings. However, this would be incompatible with the upgrade of the pages, as the whole aim of those is that there should be a sortable list, that can be sorted by parish name; current district; former district; status; and population (it is possible to list all the parishes/unparished areas, for example, in population size from the largest to the smallest).
Consideration was also given to including whether a parish had a council, meeting or joint council. Consensus was eventually reached to leave this out, as it is not always easy to obtain this information, though I personally see no reason why, on the upgraded lists, this could not be included (at least for parish meetings and joint parish councils) as notes in the "Refs" column. If that is the decision, however, it needs to be rolled out throughout the country (and an interim solution put in place for those counties not yet upgraded, perhaps on the lines that town or city status is currently shown).
One other thought is that, with the new format, these pages should be retitled in the format Civil parishes in Cornwall etc. There is no longer a requirement for lists to be titled List of... and, in any case, the upgraded pages are not strictly a list, but rather an article that includes a list.
Please take a look at the upgraded list format, and let me have your comments. Skinsmoke (talk) 15:06, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the in-depth reply. I see what you mean about the use of cut-and-paste method to make these changes being a mistake. Although I personally favour the old layout with the alphabetical subheadings on the main list page if we're to move on to the sortable table format used in the examples you gave, it would probably be best to stick to how it is now. Yet I think we will have to come up with a method that includes references to the District Councils, as although they may not have been around as long as the Rural/Urban Districts those of us born in the 1980s/90s would remember them more so.
I know we did change the naming conventions for a few of the parishes, so I'll try to update the current list based on the old list. Thanks for updating the Isles of Scilly as well. Zangar (talk) 16:06, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I'll try and express the Cornwall upgrade, by the way (next after Cambridgeshire?). The 1974 districts can be incorporated quite easily (particularly on the upgrade) by using the refs column, though I can't find a way of getting a specific column for those districts due to space limitations. Although it won't be possible to sort by 1974 district, the information will be there in the format [1] etc. The actual wording is negotiable!
  1. ^ Part of Carrick District from 1974 to 2009
Not sure what you mean about the "naming conventions for a few of the parishes". Can you give me an example or two? The list should have the official name of each parish, and has been checked against the Office for National Statistics Parish Headcounts (correct at 2003); Ordnance Survey Election Maps (largely up to date, though I have noticed one new parish in another county that hasn't been included to date); and the Department for Communities and Local Government Bulletins of Changes to Local Authority Electoral Arrangements, Areas and Names in England (correct at 1 April 2009: the new edition should be published in the next couple of months taking it to 1 April 2010). Any alterations have been cited, where possible with the legal document formally changing the name (in Cornwall, the only example is the St Austell parishes which, as they have not yet appeared in the Bulletin of Changes, are cited with a Restormel Borough Council document). It is possible that something has been missed, though I usually find that the problem is that the district council hasn't issued the Section 70 notice to formally change a parish name, and so the name officially remains unchanged. Skinsmoke (talk) 18:06, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
No worries, if you'd like I'm sure Andy F and I (and others at WP:Cornwall can do most of the leg work on the upgrade on that one, but if you'd be able to review the upgrade and round it off that'd be great (where would be best to start making the upgrade - a new page in User/Project space or just do it continuously in the actual article?) The column using refs for all the districts should be fine as you say. I think I've updated all the names (a few of them where named after their geographic location rather than the civil parish name), we got this from the Cornwall Council website (that uses the OS Election Maps) and was referenced in List of civil parishes in Cornwall/version 2, although I assume that list was correct. Zangar (talk) 21:54, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Will get back to you overnight on this, as I'm a bit tied up right now. I would suggest working up the page in a Sandbox (others should be able to get access and work on it that way, if there's a few of you. The list is of civil parishes, so should show the official name of the parish (though I usually link in the format [[Lanteglos-by-Fowey|Lanteglos]]. Bear in mind that the name of a parish only officially changes once the council has issued the Section 70 notice (a number of councils are particularly poor at this, so their use tends to differ from the official version: East Riding of Yorkshire are a bugger for it!). Ordnance Survey Election Maps is usually the most reliable source, though there can be a timelag of a couple of months before they update. You need to turn on the parish layer to show the parish boundaries/names. I am working on the statistics for Cornwall's parishes at the moment (that's why I'm tied up) for the introduction. Will get back to you. Skinsmoke (talk) 22:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Taken a while to get there, but I've managed to work something up at User:Skinsmoke/Sandbox/Civil parishes/Kernow (have taken it to the letter F!). Haven't put a reference in for the 1974 districts as this would simply duplicate the population references (which are split by 1974 districts). Have even managed to get the Cornish names in there! Let me know what you think. If any of your colleagues at the Cornish project can help, there are 65 parishes where we need a Cornish name (I can work out about 10 of these, but they really need confirming by someone who knows the language, or at least has a reliable source). Skinsmoke (talk) 20:53, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Well done with that! I've made a few minor additions so far. I'll try to help you in expanding the list in a day or two. Nice to see the inclusion of the Cornish language as well - I tend to use The Cornish Language Fellowship website to help with names (although the list isn't complete for all the civil parishes). With regards to the "District" column; I think this meant to refer to the next layer of government, in which case it should point to Cornwall Council, the UA, also I don't think this column needs the Cornish language name as it's already stated in the lead of the article. Zangar (talk) 21:42, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for that. I've moved the St Austell comment to the introduction, not because it is inappropriate where it was, but simply to prevent it being accidentally copied with the rest of the general text when setting up an upgrade for other counties. In the introduction, it immediately follows the text that has to be changed for each county, and so should be more noticeable.
There was a somewhat heated discussion some time back at Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography on how to link English unitary authority areas. The consensus was that we should link to the area, not to the council, in line with how we link to metropolitan districts, London boroughs, shire districts, Scottish council areas, Welsh counties/county boroughs and Northern Irish districts. The thinking was that people following the link are more likely to be looking for an article about the area, and its people, culture, geography, economy etc, rather than one about the political composition of the council. Anyone seeking the politics, can of course, follow the link from the area article to the council article.
I'm easy one way or the other on the Cornish name for Cornwall. It's not a major issue on this particular page, where there are only two districts (technically the unitary authority area of Cornwall is a district, I've not gone mad!). However, I was thinking more about when we get to Wales, where it might be useful to have the information to hand, rather than have to go searching the page for it, particularly as it isn't a major problem technically to include it (I just copy and paste that section). For Wales, it may also be possible to include the Welsh form of the former authority, such as "Porthmadog Urban District Dosbarth Dinesig Porthmadog." Unfortunately, I don't know enough Cornish to do that for Cornwall, other than that ranndir is district! Skinsmoke (talk) 02:02, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
The Warlinen site has reduced the number of parishes without a Cornish name to 18, with 11 needing clarification (including Camborne and Saint Austell)! Warlinen has different names for those two than are already shown on the Wikipedia articles, just to complicate matters. Skinsmoke (talk) 02:38, 24 September 2010 (UTC)


Well done on all the work with the upgrade, the page looks great now! All we need is a map of the 1974-2009 districts and it should be complete. As per your suggestion, I've copied our conversations (as collapsible boxes) into the talk page. Here's something to acknowledge all your hard work:

Working Man's Barnstar.png The Working Man's Barnstar
For all your tireless work on the upgrade of the List of civil parishes in Cornwall. Good job! Zangar (talk) 18:04, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Cheers Zangar (talk) 18:04, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that mate. Very much appreciated. I can truly say Cornwall was the most exhausting one to date! Your help was very much appreciated, and I think we've got something that looks pretty good. Will look even better once we can get the map done. Skinsmoke (talk) 10:14, 23 October 2010 (UTC)


Please discuss these first on the article talk pages, and remember that the OS does get place names wrong sometimes. There isn't an "official" name for anywhere, we have to look at various sources and make a judgement after discussion. Thanks. DuncanHill (talk) 13:07, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Nobody said anything about an official name, but I did give three reliable sources (there were no sources given for the previous titles). However, contrary to your assertion, there are official names for local government entities, such as civil parishes, unitary authorities, metropolitan boroughs, counties, districts or London boroughs: they are the names given in the appropriate legislation.
There is no requirement to discuss page moves on the talk page first, though it is wise to use the Requested moves process if you think a move will be controversial. Indeed, editors are encouraged to be bold, but to give reasons for their action. That is what I did. If you have a problem with a particular move, then it is up to you to raise it for discussion. So what, precisely, do you have a problem with? Skinsmoke (talk) 13:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
It's wise to raise major changes to an article on the talk page first. This isn't just about pagemoves, it does relate to a lot of what you are doing. I am concerned that 1) you are moving articles to titles that will be unfamiliar to the people who live in the places described, 2) you aren't discussing your changes, and are dismissive of requests to discuss them, 3) you aren't editing the navboxes to reflect the changes in page titles you make (this is necessary to make the navboxes function correctly when displayed in page), and 4) you seem to be intent on imposing a one size-fits-all solution, even when it clearly does not fit. DuncanHill (talk) 14:17, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
Rather than being dismissive of requests to discuss the changes, I specifically asked you to do so at 13:51 today. Which are you referring to? By navboxes do you mean the Infobox? If so, I thought I had changed that also. If you can come up with some specific examples that you have concerns with, I am more than happy to discuss them. Your fourth point makes hardly any sense, and I really haven't a clue what you mean. Skinsmoke (talk) 14:53, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
"There is no requirement to discuss page moves on the talk page first" sounds pretty dismissive to me. Maybe you meant it to sound like "Oh that's a good idea and would lead to consensus building". The navboxes appear at the bottom of articles, in Cornwall they are arranged by constituency (there was discussion about this, please do not go changing them willy-nilly just because you do something different for Greater Manchester). Specific examples of moves include Stoke Climsland (already undone by another editor), and the mess you made of the lists of civil parishes pre and post 2009 - they needed work, not buggering about, and if you'd asked Andy or at the wikiproject you'd have got help with the needed work). As for point 4, your insistence on linking to geographical area instead of authority in the uthority field of infoboxes (just because it suits some counties and not others), your insistence on not including the former districts, just because that suits counties which are not unitary. I could go on. You also seem to have a habit of fragmenting discussion, eg replying to a thread on one page with a new thread on another. That isn't helpful either. DuncanHill (talk) 15:01, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
"There is no requirement to discuss page moves on the talk page first" was simply a statement of fact. Wikipedia encourages editors to be bold. If I had thought that the moves were likely to be controversial, I would have gone through the Requested moves procedure, having already checked the talk pages to see if there had been any previous move discussions. That is exactly the process which is set out in the guidelines.
I'll have a look at Stoke Climsland/Stokeclimsland.
An administrator was responsible for the mess you made of the lists of civil parishes pre and post 2009. He undid the changes that had been made because they had been carried out by a cut and paste move, which as you well know, is unacceptable, not least for copyright reasons. I specifically didn't do so myself, as I had been heavily involved in editing the original page before the cut and paste abomination had been made, and wanted somebody who was independent to look at it. However, your comments would equally have applied to Andy when he was making those moves, considering the amount of work I had already done on the page.
Apologies about the navboxes (yes, I know what you mean now). I had overlooked them. However, as you clearly objected to the change anyway, at least it meant there was less to revert. I don't know why you think I would want to change the format of the navboxes because you do something different for Greater Manchester. I don't recall ever suggesting such a thing. In fact, I never commented at all, so fail to understand why you should assume I have a particular view for or against. I had seen the discussion that resulted in the decision to organise them by constituency and had no problem with the decision, even though I thought it a little unusual (or, to put it another way, innovative). As I had done nothing, nor suggested anything, why couldn't you assume good faith?
My insistence on linking to geographical area instead of authority in the uthority field of infoboxes (just because it suits some counties and not others) was the view of every other editor apart from you who bothered to comment in the discussion, and my insistence was on adopting the consensus view, rather than that of a minority of one. If the consensus had supported linking to the council, I would have been equally insistent on that.
If you bother to actually read any of my comments about including the 1974–2009 districts, you will see that I have no insistence on not including the former districts. On the contrary, I agreed that we should try to find a way of including them, and have been trying to find a way of doing so, which is more than I can say about yourself. Not one useful suggestion from you of how to get round the problem. In fact, not one suggestion at all, useful or not, and no real response to indicate whether the suggestion that has been made is acceptable or not. In the absence of a response, I had put a request together at Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/Map workshop, to see if we could get someone to produce the maps. Another idea I have been pondering is to reorganise all the lists on a district/unitary basis, rather than a county basis. This would leave a column free and would solve the problem that was encountered at List of civil parishes in Somerset, where the upgrade (not one I've done) has broken the page, because of the sheer size being too much for the softwear. However, it does mean that it will no longer be possible to sort the parishes on a county wide basis, whether alphabetically, by population, or by pre-1974 district; and some of the lists will be very small. Do the advantages outweight the disadvantages? I'm not sure, and it will probably need to be discussed on a much wider basis before a conclusion is reached, but it is an option.
As to fragmenting discussion, I left a message on your Talk page simply because it had been some time since you had left your message, and it looked like I had been deliberately ignoring you. It was a matter of courtesy, and an explanation of why I hadn't got back to you earlier. You then continued the discussion on your Talk page, rather than reverting back to the original location. Perhaps instead I should have put a note on your Talk page referring you to a reply in the original location, but in the circumstances that just seemed impersonal and bureaucratic.
I fail to understand why you are taking such a combative role. Wikipedia works best when it involves cooperation between editors, not when editors are at each others' throats. Indeed, that is one of the basic tenets of the encyclopedia. That doesn't mean that editors will always agree, but it does involve trying to compromise and collectively come up with solutions. It also means listening to what the other person has to say, and trying to accommodate those ideas as well as your own. Surely that is the basis we need to move forward. So how about a truce? Skinsmoke (talk) 16:04, 6 October 2010 (UTC)


GA review has started. Please address comments.♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:52, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for notifying me. I thought there'd be more! Skinsmoke (talk) 12:50, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

The biggest issue is the referencing. Each one needs to have a {cite web or cite book and |author= |title=|publisher=|date=| etc.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:45, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I understood that the cite web or cite book formula wasn't mandatory, even for good or featured articles. Skinsmoke (talk) 08:16, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Publishing info though is I think.. Super work BTW on User:Skinsmoke/Sandbox/Civil parishes/Kernow, exactly what we need.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:44, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Ta for that - it's gone live now, along with Cambridgeshire to join Cheshire and the six metros. Lancashire very close to completion, and Bedfordshire underway. Not been up to doing much this last week as suffering from the flu, but need to sort out Aberdaron in next few days. Skinsmoke (talk) 18:11, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Can you add the book page numbers to the sources where required for Aberdaron? Hope you are feeling better,♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:49, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

On the mend thanks. I'll have a go, though I'm struggling with the kayaking reference. I originally found the section online (Google Books I think), but it appears to be another part of the book now showing. It may need a visit to a library! Skinsmoke (talk) 00:02, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


I'm not convinced that Thornton-Cleveleys should be spelled with an en-dash. It seems to me that it's a hyphenated name.-- Dr Greg  talk  00:17, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

My understanding was that if it's an artificial conjunction of two names, like Baden–Württemberg, it's an en-dash; if it's something like Poulton-le-Fylde it's hyphens. But I don't think it's worth fighting over. Must admit, I was surprised to see it with either, as I've always known it as Thornton Cleveleys. Skinsmoke (talk) 00:22, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


There is currently a requested move discussion underway that involves the titling of the articke Kyūshū which definitely has a consensus to move to "Kyushu". As such, I have reverted several of your edits changing instances of "Kyushu" to "Kyūshū", particularly in proper names such as University of Kitakyushu (it obviously has an official English name that is not the same as the article title the city currently has).—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 05:04, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I admit I hadn't noticed the discussion on changing the article title. However, do you not think your reversions are pre-empting the results of those discussions? The fact that a discussion "is moving towards" something does not mean that consensus has been reached, and until that point is reached, the Manual of Style is quite clear that use in the text should match the article title. Skinsmoke (talk) 05:27, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
The article title is soon to change in the case of "Kyushu" at least.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:44, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
That hasn't been decided yet. Skinsmoke (talk) 07:47, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

time to sort out the icesave / debt repayment / loan agreement dispute finally[edit]

hey there, this is just a bulk message inviting you to re-think the topic as was discussed more than 6 months ago and is still unresolved. feel free to jump here:,_2010#Time_to_settle_the_title_dispute.3F and help figure out how we can end this conclusively this time. --Lotsofmagnets (talk) 02:51, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Hello Skinsmoke; just wanted to make it clear that my stated dislike for the current title is not at all intended to be taken personally - I realize that your proposal was designed to accommodate some widely divergent viewpoints and appreciate your efforts. Any title is better than six (or more) competing titles.  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 08:48, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Hello. It certainly isn't taken personally. I actually think the title we're at now is a slight improvement on what I suggested! I suspect this is probably the best we're going to get for the timebeing, at least until it stops being such a touchy subject. In a few years, nobody will care what it was called. Skinsmoke (talk) 10:33, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Requested move comments[edit]

Is there any reason you were being overly dramatic in your comments on Talk:Pay Money to My Pain and Talk:Journey Through the Decade? Changing the casing of three letters in one article and one in the other is not "ridiculous capitalisation" by any means.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 06:49, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes it is. It's a feeble attempt to appear to be "different" and is juvenile in the extreme. I don't object to whatever style a band, artist or town selects for their logo, or their album cover: that's a matter of artistic choice. What I do object to most strongly is the frequent attempts on Wikipedia to try to impose that artistic style on English prose. An encyclopedia is written in English, using English grammar and capitalisation, not some made up concoction created purely because some idiot thinks it might look nice on the cover of a CD. Clearly, we are not going to agree on this one. Skinsmoke (talk) 06:56, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
But it's the letters M and T. Why is it such a problem? If the band calls themselves "Pay money To my Pain" and that is how everyone else refers to the group then why do we decide that their method of capitalizing their own name is wrong? There has been a discussion going on at WT:MOS that has been determining that WP:MOSTM's treatment of these article titles has been wrong. Songs, band names, and stage names are not trademarks so they should not be subject to those rules. "Pay money To my Pain" is a perfectly viable article title. Right now, "Journey through the Decade" isn't because of WP:ALBUMCAPS but there can always be exceptions made to be consistent with the actual usage.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:23, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
As I said in my previous comment, we are never going to agree on this one. Skinsmoke (talk) 08:25, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
As far as I can tell from your comments you are being fairly ignorant. "[B]ecause some idiot thinks it might look nice on the cover of a CD" seems to work for Anglophone musicians, but not musicians of other languages.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:31, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
As you wish. The answer's still no. My opinion will not change. Skinsmoke (talk) 08:38, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Language templates[edit]

Hi Skinsmoke. Edits such as that make display the Latin alphabet of the transliteration/transcriptions with the font specified for non-Latin alphabet. I suggest that transliteration/transcriptions should always be written outside of the non-Arabic-script language templates :) I saw the same error in too many articles. Thanks. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 08:29, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Weston Patrick[edit]

Thanks for the heads up. The reference which gave the parish is from the Hampshire Board of Agriculture - a company that gave out the acreages of parishes in South East England that no longer exists. The reference on the detached portion of the parish came from 1905, so I think that it might have changed since then! You can see the full history here but the stuff on British History is very dated. And I must admit, back in June 2010 I was very inexperienced on using citations on Wikipedia. But the parish boundaries have changed since then and looking on the civil parish maps there certainly is no detatched portion. I know the local area quite well and there has actually been some rearranging in the past few years. I have removed the sentence saying that there was a detatched portion of the parish. Thanks, Jaguar (talk) 19:10, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Hi Jaguar. Thanks for that. Skinsmoke (talk) 08:02, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
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Flagging error[edit]

I was just flagged for editwaring on that The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills page also, along with several others, all of whom just left Puppet dude a message. When i clicked on his talk page I was directed to a a sandbox~ -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:14, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Looks like it's all sorted now! Skinsmoke (talk) 19:16, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Kilham, Northumberland[edit]

Nominate for GA and I'll review it, looks to be GA quality.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:53, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Review has begun. Cheers.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:02, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Congrats, I passed Kilham, Northumberland. I noticed you seemed to be getting a little unsettled by some of the things I identified. Remember it is just a review and not everything highlighted will be compulsory. I needed to ensure that those facts were backed up of course.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:05, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Wasn't at all unsettled. Was actually quite enjoying the process, so sorry if it came across otherwise. It really wasn't meant to, and I had a little chuckle about the Privy Council causing the deaths - in those days it perhaps wouldn't have been surprising if they had! In a way, I'm sorry you passed it before I got round to responding to the other items (getting the dinner ready and sitting down to watch X Factor meant I got grabbed away from the computer!). Believe me, nothing you had come up with would have been anywhere near as harsh as some of the criticisms I came up with myself while writing and rewriting the article, as you will notice from the edit history! At least this time I knew what to expect before I started writing, so the whole process was a lot easier than Aberdaron last year.
To be honest, I wanted to prove to myself that it was possible to write a pretty decent, comprehensive article about an insignificant (albeit stunningly beautiful) place in the middle of nowhere, with a population barely into three figures. I think I surprised even myself with the outcome! The WikiProject UK geography guidelines are a massive help, as they proved to be last year for Aberdaron, and really should be more readily available—it's all too easy to miss them, especially if you don't know where to look.
Anyway, feeling pretty smug and need knocking down a peg or two now! You may care to cite Kilham, Northumberland in your battle of the stubs! When we had a week's holiday there in March there was nothing on Wikipedia!
It started life on 11 May 2011 as a stub reading "Kilham is a place in Northumberland which had a Romano-British settlement.[2]. It is not to be confused with Kilham, East Riding of Yorkshire, which also had a Roman-Anglian settlement."
In under six months it has progressed to Good Article status!
Anyway, thanks for your help and encouragement! Don't ever underestimate the difference a few kind words like yours can make to an editor still learning the ropes! Skinsmoke (talk) 23:51, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Well excellent job. But I think you'll find you would be able to write a GA quality in just a few hours. I know people who've had their article promoted within a week of creation. I think you'd be capable of writing many more GAs on British hamlets and villages. But no rush, take it at your own pace. I will be here most likely when you come to want another article reviewed. Go for it!♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:13, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Have already started on Auchterhouse in Angus. I've had a go at Wales and England, so it's Scotland's turn! Am also updating Aberdaron, so it may take a few days—we'll see. Kilham took 11 days begining to end, though there was a little preparatory work done in October. Thanks for your offer, by the way. You will be taken up on it! Skinsmoke (talk) 13:11, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Awesome, good luck with that. Long term goal perhaps a GA for every county of the UK? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:17, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Maybe. But first goal is to get the List of civil parishes in England series sorted. Have already done the five counties in the North West, plus the other metros, and a few of the shires—a total of 12 in all, I think. A 13th is almost ready to move into article space when I get round to it, but there were a few parish changes there last year which need to be incorporated first, and I've been putting it off! Will probably go for the North East and Buckinghamshire next, as I like to keep a bit of variety going to prevent boredom. Skinsmoke (talk) 13:32, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Hamstead Marshall in Berkshire[edit]

I'd be interested to know your source for claiming that the "official" spelling of this village name is "Hampstead Marshall". Pennystokes (talk) 16:39, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi Penny. Ordnance Survey Election Maps and Office of National Statistics, plus correspondence with the clerk of the parish council. It appears that the district council has never bothered to issue the required notice to the Secretary of State changing the name of the parish to the modern spelling of the village, and the formal change of name does not take effect until this legal notice has been issued. I believe this is something the parish council has taken up with the district council, but still nothing appears to have been done. Skinsmoke (talk) 16:46, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Hello, Skinsmoke

Thank you for your reply, but both spellings have been used interchangeably in official documentation going back at least to the early seventeenth century. Parliamentary papers (from both Houses) and governmental bodies such as the Poor Law Commissioners and the GPO sometimes printed Hamstead and sometimes Hampstead, as you will see if you trawl Access to Archives and Google Booksearch. I have a large collection of local maps, showing that Ordnance Survey has mostly favoured Hamstead over Hampstead since the early twentieth century. (The modern OS electoral map that you mention shows both versions printed almost overlapping). The electoral roll, of which I have copies going back to 1986, uses Hamstead. The ONS, which you quote as a source for Hampstead, must also be inconsistent, since the censuses of 1801, 1881 and 1911 (at least - these are the only ones I have checked) use Hamstead.

It's difficult to see how anyone could extract an "official" orthography from this, other than to note that over the last century Hamstead seems to have trumped Hampstead fairly thoroughly in usage. Could you be more specific about your reasoning? The parish clerk, who has been in office for some years, cannot recall being queried on this, so I'd be grateful to know who it was you contacted and when.Pennystokes (talk) 11:32, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

The Ordnance Survey certainly seems to favour Hamstead for the name of the village (as opposed to the parish). I don't think that much is in doubt. However, on the Electoral Maps they clearly favour Hampstead for the parish name (the blue overlay).
I am not sure that we can draw any conclusions from the spelling used by the Office for National Statistics (or, I presume, its predecessors) 100 years ago. The official spelling of many places has changed since then (Porthmadog, for instance changed from Ynyscynhaiarn to Portmadoc then to Porthmadog). To get a more meaningful sense of when the ONS changed its use, it would be more helpful to work back from 2001. It might also be worth asking the ONS (and the Ordnance Survey) where their source for the spelling is (Office for National Statistics: Neighbourhood Statistics: Hampstead Marshall).
Ultimately, however, it is the district council that is, under the legislation, responsible for the naming of civil parishes. The change formally takes effect when a Section 80 notice is issued to the Secretary of State, copies also going to any county council, the Ordnance Survey, the Office for National Statistics, and the Royal Mail (and presumably, in practice, to any separate police, fire and health authorities). I suspect that this mess probably dates back to the confusion around reorganisation in 1974 (I could easily be wrong). At that time all civil parishes were formally abolished, and successors reconstituted. I'd be willing to put a £1 on the fact that the "change" happened when a list was submitted to the Secretary of State, probably without anyone noticing, and was either by one person's design or, probably more likely, by accident. There are several parishes around the country that mysteriously had their names changed at that time! The problem could quite easily be resolved by the district council issuing a formal notice under Section 80 to change the name of the civil parish: however they appear to have no interest in doing so. The parish council does not have the legal power to change the name itself, and can only make recommendations to the district council.
My email correspondence with the parish clerk was about 2 to 3 years ago, and unfortunately is on another computer at a different location. I will see if I can dig it out, but it may take a while. You may also want to see what the Chief Executive of the district council has to say, although I couldn't get any response whatever from them when I tried.
Incidentally, I have restored the earlier exchange from this section that you removed, presumably accidentally, so that the thread makes more sense. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:20, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
By the way, there are a number of civil parishes in England with optional names, which are listed as, for example, Hampstead Marshall or Hamstead Marshall. Why this isn't one of them God only knows! Skinsmoke (talk) 17:42, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Have emailed you the earlier correspondence. If you don't receive it (the email address I have for you is from three years ago, and was given me by Jo Wheeler), let me know and I'll try and send it through Wikipedia (don't want to make the email address I have public on here or you'll be deluged with spam!) Skinsmoke (talk) 08:25, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Template 2011 railway accidents[edit]

I've commented out your recent addition to {{2011 railway accidents}}. I presume that you intend to write the article. Once it is live, the link can be made live again. AFAIK, the railway (and aircrash) templates are only for articles that exist. Mjroots (talk) 19:14, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

The BBC have a story on the 2011 Flores rail crash. Mjroots (talk) 20:58, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Will have a look after shopping and tea! Skinsmoke (talk) 21:10, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
Now expanded with information from BBC report. Skinsmoke (talk) 03:16, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

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Fixed. Skinsmoke (talk) 16:06, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Original Barnstar Hires.png The Original Barnstar
Wow your work is amazing Nickerss (talk) 19:50, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Reply for barnstar[edit]

Sorry forgot to tell you. I think every thing you wrote was interesting.Nickerss (talk) 03:09, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

infobox uk place.By the way are you from england.Nickerss (talk) 03:49, 1 March 2012 (UTC)


infobox uk place.By the way are you from the uk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nickerss (talkcontribs) 03:50, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

OK. Yes, I'm from Stockport, a town of about 300,000 people just south of Manchester. Skinsmoke (talk) 03:53, 1 March 2012 (UTC)


Nice picture of Bedford Square on the Fitzrovia entry. However Bedford Square although can be considered part of Fitzrovia, Fitzroy Square is more typical. You may note Bedford Square also features on the Bloomsbury entry as well as well as having its own page. I was minded to revert your addition, but that would be rude :o). This issue of London district borders is controversial. May I suggest looking at the other entries. --Thegiantrodent (talk) 13:32, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. Undefined district borders are always a difficulty. In this case I looked at over 1,300 images on Geograph. Sadly, very few were of an acceptable quality to head an infobox. Personally, I would have preferred a decent image of the Telecom Tower, but finding one in landscape format that was taken from within Fitzrovia was damned near impossible. In the end I opted for the Bedford Square image because it clearly falls within the limits of Fitzrovia defined in the article it is illustrating, even though it is on the eastern edge. If you can find a decent image that is more representative of the area, feel free to swap it. I promise I won't sulk about it! Skinsmoke (talk) 18:38, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
I'll have to search through my photos or get out my camera and take a pic and put it on the Commons. I'll try to take a landscape including the BT Tower.--Thegiantrodent (talk) 07:02, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Good luck. Look forward to the results. Skinsmoke (talk) 01:42, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

For bringing my editing up to standard.Ankh.Morpork 10:56, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure it was all that much of an improvement, but glad you approve. Must admit, I often look at something I've written a couple of days later and think "why on earth did I put it like that?" In this case, all it amounted to was tweaking. Skinsmoke (talk) 11:10, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Message for you at Commons[edit]

Hi there,

Just to let you know I left a message on your talk page at Wikimedia Commons. (I know that some Wikipedia users like the heads up when messages are left for them at Commons, and you seem to be more active here).

All the best, Ubcule (talk) 19:30, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Skinsmoke (talk) 11:13, 24 June 2012 (UTC)


Hello, as your edit says: you removed because it was a nonsense. Let me know why, I just recognized that "solitally" it's not an english word :D. Does make sense this: "Usually is only a street, as in the case of Lombardy."? Thank you in advance. (You have the honour to inaugurate my talk page) --Otrebla86 (talk) 12:39, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

OK. Sorry about that. I had assumed it was vandalism. I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. Do you mean that, in Lombardy, solitally is the term given to a street? If so, why is this relevant to an article on contrada. Skinsmoke (talk) 13:04, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
No, no, no. As the english adverbs terminate with "-ly", italian adverbs terminate with "-mente". At the moment I was writing, I translated "solitamente" (means usually) in "solitally", doing a mistake. All I want to say is that in Sicily a Contrada is often a single country street, with historical and social importance. That's all. Excuse me for the misunderstands.--Otrebla86 (talk) 14:19, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Right, thanks for that clarification. I have amended the article to restore the sense you were trying to get over, if you want to check the wording. Skinsmoke (talk) 14:26, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (films)#Foreign language and articles’ titles[edit]

Since you participated, two years ago, in a vote regarding proper title form at Talk:I Vitelloni#Move, the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (films)#Foreign language and articles’ titles and, on the same page, Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (films)#Moratorium on foreign language page moves/Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (films)#Discussion regarding moratorium on foreign language page moves may be of interest.—Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 06:22, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for August 27[edit]

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Now fixed. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:42, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Ely again[edit]

Coincidentally, last night I discovered a page i had printed out some years ago from a CD I had of Lewis's Topographical Dictionary of England. Don't know where the CD is now, but it must have been the 1831 edition as it differed from this one : [3] (1837) but was the same as this one: [4]. Anyone the bit that had caught my eye was
"The municipal government of the city is vested in magistrates appointed by the bishop, who are justices of the peace within the isle; of these, the chief bailiff, called in the act of the 27th of Hen. VIII. "the temporal steward," exercises the functions of high sheriff"... and so on. So that was what operated in place of a corporation. It looks like the 1837 version of the Dictionary has been rewritten to take into account the passing of the Liberty of Ely Act 1837. Lozleader (talk) 15:47, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

The Olive Branch: A Dispute Resolution Newsletter (Issue #1)[edit]

Welcome to the first edition of The Olive Branch. This will be a place to semi-regularly update editors active in dispute resolution (DR) about some of the most important issues, advances, and challenges in the area. You were delivered this update because you are active in DR, but if you would prefer not to receive any future mailing, just add your name to this page.

Steven Zhang's Fellowship Slideshow

In this issue:

  • Background: A brief overview of the DR ecosystem.
  • Research: The most recent DR data
  • Survey results: Highlights from Steven Zhang's April 2012 survey
  • Activity analysis: Where DR happened, broken down by the top DR forums
  • DR Noticeboard comparison: How the newest DR forum has progressed between May and August
  • Discussion update: Checking up on the Wikiquette Assistance close debate
  • Proposal: It's time to close the Geopolitical, ethnic, and religious conflicts noticeboard. Agree or disagree?
Read the entire first edition of The Olive Branch -->

--The Olive Branch 19:30, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

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Greater Manchester places[edit]

You have continued to move articles on towns in Greater Manchester, despite this request to cease (which could perhaps have been phrased a little more pleasantly). The consensus at Wikipedia:WikiProject Greater Manchester is that articles should be disambiguated by the ceremonial county, not the metropolitan borough. There is provision in the naming conventions for England for an article to be disambiguated by settlement, but this is not supported within the Greater Manchester project, and in any case, would not apply to the moves you made at Middleton, Greater Manchester or Wardle, Greater Manchester, neither of which is part of the settlement of Rochdale. Please stop immediately. Any further moves will have to be considered as vandalism, and will be reported, which could result in you being banned from editing. Skinsmoke (talk) 03:28, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough, now that someone has made a civilized request, together with something of an explanation, I see no reason to rename anymore articles but I would appreciate it if you could direct me to where this particular convention for Greater Manchester is documented. As far as i could see I was applying general convention to the renaming but if there is some "stick-in-the-mud" agreement by Mancunians then I can live with that. Green Giant (talk) 14:14, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi Green Giant. Thanks for getting back to me. The basic rule is contained in the naming convention for England. That allows for places to be disambiguated either by ceremonial county or by settlement (but not by district, unless there are two or more places in one ceremonial county). The problem with many of the moves you had made is that Middleton, Greater Manchester, for example, is not part of Rochdale, being a separate town, although it is in the Metropolitan Borough of Rochdale. I can't find the discussion at the Greater Manchester project at the moment (it's hidden back in the archives somewhere), but the gist there was that as all other settlements in Greater Manchester requiring disambiguation, as listed in [[Category:Villages in Greater Manchester]] and [[Category:Towns in Greater Manchester]] are disambiguated by ceremonial county, those disambiguated by settlement (only a couple at that time), should be moved to the same pattern, as this is where viewers/editors would be more likely to expect to find them. Obviously, when there are two places in Greater Manchester with the same name, then an alternative disambiguation is required, and that is when they are disambiguated by metropolitan borough.
It really isn't a "stick in the mud" argument. If it was, we would still have Littleborough, Lancashire or Bowdon, Cheshire. The original argument was that readers are more likely to know which county a place is situated in, than they would which district/metropolitan borough it is in, particularly as most British road atlases list places by county. I suppose you have to ask how many average Britons have a clue where Tameside, Calderdale, Kirklees or Sandwell are. Mind you, even I struggle to remember that Rickmansworth, for example, is in Three Rivers. If you watch some game shows on television, it's astonishing how poor the average grasp of geography is. One contestant this week thought that Sweden is the capital of Australia! It makes you want to weep!.
Personally, I would prefer a general rule that we disambiguate by district/metropolitan borough, but I really cannot see consensus being reached on that in the short (or even long) term future. I don't think the Wikipedia community is ready yet for Ingleton, Craven or March, Fenland. The best I think we can hope for at the moment is a redirect from those to Ingleton, North Yorkshire and March, Cambridgeshire. Skinsmoke (talk) 15:00, 28 September 2012 (UTC)


Export hell seidel steiner.png I owe you a drink. Sorry it's not Brains' bitter. Iechyd da! -- Gareth Griffith-Jones/GG-J's Talk 15:20, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Diolch yn fawr! I've struggled with the bloody things in the past, only to find it was something really simple required to fix it! I just happened to stumble across it. A Caerdydd man I presume. Skinsmoke (talk) 15:27, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Croeso! Correct, born and raised. -- Gareth Griffith-Jones/GG-J's Talk 19:33, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

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Both now fixed. Skinsmoke (talk) 05:19, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Joe Daniels (actor)[edit]

This did indeed look like a hoax, but looking at the history there was a more or less straight article back in 2009 before a couple of IPs mucked it up with "joke" edits; so I have reverted to the last good version. He doesn't look particularly notable, though, and you could consider AfD. I might do that myself if I get round to checking up on him. Regards, JohnCD (talk) 17:19, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I stumbled across it while I was in the middle of doing something, so didn't spend a great deal of time on it, just flagged it for someone else to sort. I tend to agree that this is going to struggle to meet the notability criteria, but I'm no expert on cinema-related articles, so probably wouldn't push it myself. Thanks for sorting the mess out though! Skinsmoke (talk) 18:20, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


Hi Skinsmoke, you're probably among the many well aware of and quite fed up with this subject. But I thought you would want to see this edit history and particularly the last edit summary: [5]. I really don't know what can be done to get this user to stop moving articles counter all past and recent RMs and RfC majority. Bắc Giang province was also moved counter the 07 Aug 2011 14 cities RM, but I restored it, Bắc Giang River was left alone. Any suggestions? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:07, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi In ictu oculi. I've replied at Talk:Bắc Giang, which, incidentally, I've reverted back to its correct title, as was previously agreed. Skinsmoke (talk) 02:01, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
Many thanks. I thought I should let you know on this one as you had been the one to add Vietnamese spelling in June 2010, as geo editors Dr Blofeld, Ser Amantio de Nicolai and various others were doing happily before this campaign started in July/August 2011. We'll see if it stays there. Best regards. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:50, 28 December 2012 (UTC)


I made a request related to Talk:Bengkulu (city) at Talk:Bengkulu. AsianGeographer (talk) 20:05, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks for that. Have commented at that move request, and suggested the moves for both the city and province are considered together. Skinsmoke (talk) 22:48, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks to you. You may be interested in Talk:Special_Region_of_Yogyakarta#Requested_move. AsianGeographer (talk) 22:59, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that, but be careful. Editors can get very touchy about Wikipedia:Canvassing, especially if they haven't been invited to join the discussion. I'm sure that isn't your intention, but I don't want to see you being chased by a baying mob. Skinsmoke (talk) 23:08, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that warning. To prevent misunderstandings, I made a post at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Indonesia#Provinces, listing requests for Bali Province, Bengkulu Province, Yogyakarta Special Region. AsianGeographer (talk) 23:23, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Good idea :-) Skinsmoke (talk) 23:26, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Agreed SatuSuro 23:39, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

It would take a very long on wiki message to explain the sheer frustration of watching the project flounder for years and have the occasional english challenged indonesian attempt to re-invent the wheel, but to have the current globalistic terminology set of flies try to reinvent the project again is nothing short of.... SatuSuro 23:46, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi SatuSuro. Have a little patience. It looks like he's new to Wikipedia, which can be a pretty baffling place at first. We've all pissed people off with our first edits (believe me, I still do on occasions), and it takes a while to get your head round what's "acceptable" and what isn't. It isn't always as obvious as we like to think. With a bit of encouragement, and pointing in the right direction, who knows, he could turn out to be a valuable contributor. My impression so far (and I could be wrong) is that he responds well to reasoned argument, and is pretty eager to "get it right". Just realised, "he" might even be "she"! Skinsmoke (talk) 23:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
To SatuSuro - Maybe you look how other local projects are managed. All over Asia, with the exception of the Philippines, the administrative entities are labeled without so much ambiguity as is the case with some of the provinces of Indonesia. AsianGeographer (talk) 00:03, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
The fact is this should be in one central place - anyone trying to follow what is going on is going to get very confused. Trolling comes to mind as well as canvassing SatuSuro 00:28, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
I think you'll find that, on the whole, that is because most Asian administrative subdivisions are named after their capital city. For that reason, we need to disambiguate between the city and the province/region/district/governorate. The general rule on English Wikipedia is that where there is no need for such a disambiguator (as in, for example Bali), we don't use one. In fact the Wikipedia:Naming conventions specifically recommend that one should not be used, even though this means there is not a consistent pattern for all subdivisions within the same country. Having said all that, Satu is right in that it is easier for everyone concerned if the discussion is kept in one place, so that it is easier to follow. However, his accusation of trolling seems a bit of a hysterical overreaction. Skinsmoke (talk) 00:45, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Haha hysterical indeed (where's the sound byte of hysterical laughter I once had... Ooops and I have mislaid my book of welsh swear words as well ) - I simply suggested (comes to mind, I did not say it was happening) that a new editor with an ongoing wandering into every nook and cranny to make a WP:POINT is far from hysterical but simply, an observation that such behaviour over time could lead into such an identifiable behaviour.

You are to be commended on your very clear explanations of the naming conventions and practices, that should serve anyone well if they are wandering into this discussion at this point SatuSuro 00:56, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

OK, you were right. Last time I bloody well assume good faith! Skinsmoke (talk) 01:28, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
due to family reasons i might be (20-30% chance) in colwyn (ie north coast) in about a month - maybe I should line up a brew or two for wherever you might be ? SatuSuro 01:34, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm actually over the border in Stockport. Keep away from the Robinson's. It's great in Stockport, but it really doesn't travel well to Gogledd Cymru! Actually, come to think of it, it doesn't particularly travel well 20 miles up into the Peak District. Skinsmoke (talk) 01:46, 5 January 2013 (UTC)


In this see also list, List of Chief Ministers of Pondicherry is not working for some reason which I could not found out, can you help? --Tito Dutta (talk) 20:43, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Have managed to sort it, but not sure how. I also couldn't get the template to display properly. In the end, copy pasting the destination article title into the template worked, so I presume it must have been something to do with spacing and the line break this created. Skinsmoke (talk) 21:03, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Ah, that's good! --Tito Dutta (talk) 21:07, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
By the way, don't know whether you're aware of this, but when you're trying to resize a portrait image (an upright one), try using "upright" rather than a pixel size, as this produces the default size so that it matches other images on the page. Skinsmoke (talk) 21:11, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
I have seen its use but frankly, was not aware of it. If you give me the help article I'll add it in my weekly Wikipedia study and read it attentively.
I am now feeling I could start few more directly relevant RMs with Pondicherry article RM (like Culture of Pondicherry, Ministers of Pondicherry and all state related articles).
Also, about the Beangalore RM, which is not directly relevant, you can see this discussion User_talk:BDD#RM --Tito Dutta (talk) 21:20, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
I wouldn't do anything on the requested moves until the proposal for the union territory has been determined. It would only muddy the waters. If the main article moves, then the others would logically follow, and should be uncontroversial. If it isn't moved, then there would be no point trying to move the associated articles. I'll see if I can find the help page about images. Skinsmoke (talk) 00:56, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
Alright! I have been asked by an editor to give a second opinion at another muddy Indian city, state name change discussion, but, I am getting distracted there, also, no one is writing edit summary, see if you can help or post any opinion there Talk:Renaming_of_cities_in_India! --Tito Dutta (talk) 01:05, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
As far as Bangalore is concerned, I think that is a different matter altogether. Advanced Google searches show that the city is still mainly referred to as Bangalore in Indian English. This is probably because, as far as I'm aware, the government in New Delhi has never completed the name change to Bengaluru requested by the government of Karnataka. Despite the state government making the request in 2006 (six years ago!), the 2011 census still referred to Bangalore. This newspaper article from February 2011 indicates that the name was still uncertain, and that an alternative proposal to change to Bengalooru was then complicating the matter. I am unable to find any further news after that date to confirm what subsequently happened. I think, until the city, state and union governments can sort themselves out, it is unlikely that any new name (which would be unofficial) will take off in general useage, even within India. You cannot really expect Wikipedia to endorse the name change when the three levels of government seem incapable of working through the process. Skinsmoke (talk) 01:17, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, but as far as Talk:Renaming of cities in India goes, I'm staying well clear! It's bad enough here in the United Kingdom arguing the case with towns and villages changing from bastardised Anglo-Welsh to Welsh, without getting mired down in a whole raft of Indian changes. Afraid you lot are on your own with that one, or else I won't have time to do anything else. I only got involved with Orissa and Pondicherry because I thought they were glaring examples where Wikipedia was failing to accept reality (and I was a bit narked at the undiscussed revert from Puducherry, which was a bit naughty to say the least). Sorry! Skinsmoke (talk) 01:36, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

As far as the images are concerned, there's quite a good help page at Wikipedia:Picture tutorial which is pretty comprehensive. Don't worry, you won't remember it all in one go, but it's useful to bookmark. Skinsmoke (talk) 01:45, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Despite what you said above, if you do change your mind and feel like an proofread, rather than get bogged down in RM, I expanded/sourced Renaming of cities in India Completely understand your reply though :) Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:41, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
Don't mind doing that at all. Will cast a glance over it in the next few days and see what I can do. Have just had a brief look and there are one or two very minor grammatical/copy edit points that can be improved. Need to see if it is possible to get some more citations as well, and the tone needs to be changed in places (it reads a bit like a personal essay in places, rather than simply presenting cited facts). It's always better to find a quote that someone said such and such a thing, rather than saying it directly. The article actually has the potential to make it to Wikipedia:Good article status with a bit of work, provided it can reach stability. I've added the article to my watch list, and had a go at the first paragraph (that was the easy bit!). One thing that comes to mind there is the statement that renaming cities started in 1947. I know what is meant, but, as it stands, it suggests that no cities in India were ever renamed prior to the end of British imperial rule. I don't think that is correct. I'm not sure of the best way of dealing with that problem. Any suggestions? Skinsmoke (talk) 11:23, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
You're right on all these comments, this is why I wanted to stand back for a day or too. Thanks for looking. It occurs to me that there were been Mughal renamings as well, and the process goes back as old as towns existed. (Jaywant D. Joglekar Veer Savarkar Father of Hindu Nationalism 2006 - Page 23 "In the sixteenth century Nasik came under the jurisdiction of Bahamani Sultans. In the following century, the city became a part of the Mughal Empire. Mughals renamed the town as Gulshanabad" ), perhaps some sentence in lede briefly mentioning the past but then saying this article focusses on renamings since 1947 and existence of "India" minus Pakistan? Thanks again. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:38, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
I quite like that idea. Or alternatively, do it the other way round. Borrowing heavily from Renaming in South Africa, perhaps something on the lines of:

Since the end of the British imperial period, there have been a number of places in India which have been renamed for political, ethical or linguistic reasons. The renaming process though, pre-dates independence. In the 17th century, Nashik became part of the Mughal Empire, and was renamed Gulshanabad, reverting to its present name under the Maratha Empire.[[citations]] Other examples include... However, it is since 1947, with a newly independent country keen to establish a new identity, that the process has gathered pace.

Skinsmoke (talk) 15:18, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes, that's correct, many Indian cities and states have been renamed many times. And trend was more prominent before British period. Many sultans, kings have renamed many cities many times.
* Example 1
* Example 2 --Tito Dutta (talk) 15:30, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
And, I think, the British did a fair bit of renaming themselves. Skinsmoke (talk) 15:37, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes. Yes please go ahead, I will stand off/back for a day I think. Many thanks. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:43, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
No, that wasn't my intention. I was trying to give you a few ideas you could work up, and which I'll be more than pleased to have a look at copy editing. But please, have a go at it yourself first. Apart from anything else, you probably have a much better idea where to look for examples or citations than I have. When you've got it more or less into shape, I'd be more than happy to help you get it up to Wikipedia:Good article status (I'm not, by any means an expert, but was heavily involved in Aberdaron and did almost all the work on Kilham, Northumberland, so have a fair idea what's involved). Skinsmoke (talk) 15:54, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation[edit]

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Disambiguation link notification for January 9[edit]

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Now fixed. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:07, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Re: Tripura[edit]

Hi! Thanks for the comments, I have replied in FAC page. As I was submitting this for FAC, I was wondering if the lead is engaging at all. It seems far from engaging, it is not of sufficient quality. We would be greatly obliged if you can suggest some improvement of the lead, if possible. As I told in FAC page, prose has remained a constant problem in India-related article. I think this is primarily because we are not native speakers of the language. I hope you or someone else could help. Thanks a lot. Regards. --Dwaipayan (talk) 18:01, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I'd be glad to help with the prose style. I'll have a look at it later tonight and see what I can come up with. Keep a lookout here as I'll list anything but minor amendments, so you can decide if you want to incorporate them. I think I'd add a passing mention of the climate, and maybe the fact that Tripura has the highest number of primate species of any Indian state (that's something unique—maybe the wow factor you're looking for), but generally the introduction seems to accurately summarise the article, and is a damned sight better than the introductions to most articles on Wikipedia.
Finally, I've been looking for someone to work with on Sikkim to get it back to Good Article status over the next couple of months (it's not far off, to be honest). Fancy having a go when Tripura's sorted? Skinsmoke (talk) 18:28, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
You won't believe it! Last night, before submitting the FAC, I actually added the primate info (and also that bamboo and cane is abundant in the state) to the lead to see how it looks like! But then removed after the edit preview, as I thought it was not coalescing smoothly.. I agree that the primate info could be the wow factor. Indeed, honestly I think the wow factors for this state is the biodiversity, ethnic diversity, and the geographic marginalization. I added the sentence on tribal practices prior to the FAC submission last night. It would be great if you can add the primate sentence appropriately. And yes, please work with image positioning and caption.
I will be extremely happy to work on Sikkim. I did work on it and Gangtok years ago. That state is really a colourfull one, and should garner more interest to general readers.
One additional note on prose—we Indians have very high tendency to use prepositions and "the" wrongly. So, please look out for those errors.--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:39, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
I'll look out for the prepositions and "the". I've worked with a fair few Punjabis over the years, so I was pleased to see that at least every sentence isn't suffixed with "am I right?"  ;-) Skinsmoke (talk) 19:10, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Primates Yes check.svg Done. Skinsmoke (talk) 03:52, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


You can add a passing mention of the climate, but IMO it should be really a passing one!Dwaipayan (talk) 18:39, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

On climate I was simply thinking of squeezing in something like "It has a tropical savanna climate, with seasonal heavy rains from the southwest monsoon." Skinsmoke (talk) 19:10, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes, that much climate sounds right.Dwaipayan (talk) 19:51, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Climate Yes check.svg Done. Skinsmoke (talk) 03:49, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Is it possible to include a weather box in the article? Are you able to find the weather records for a station in Tripura? I can construct the box once we find the records (I've done a couple before and they're not too hard). Don't worry, the records from most stations are not too extensive, so the box won't end up as large as the one on the template page! See Kilham, Northumberland for an example in use. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:26, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Well, the weather/climatological data will be different in different parts/towns of the state. We have data for Agartala here in page 6. However I wonder whether it would be appropriate to give one city's data in a state article.--Dwaipayan (talk) 02:29, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Of course there will be differences within Tripura, but how different? Any weather box would only be illustrative (rather than definitive), but it would give an idea of how Tripura's weather differs from, say, Ontario's, Austria's or Tierra del Fuego's. Remember, we are catering to an international audience, and readers will be able to glance at a weather box and think "bloody hell, that's hot" or "crikey, it isn't half wet during the summer" (or whatever), without having to wade through the text unless they want to. The article at Geography of Poland presents three weather station's figures (in a less clear format), but I suspect that for Tripura only the capital would really be necessary unless there are considerable differences elsewhere in the state (if you were doing the United Kingdom, for instance, it would probably make sense to show London, Edinburgh, Belfast and Cardiff, although you would probably have to put in a "hide" option for the tables). I've just spotted there is a weather box at Agartala. My instant reaction on seeing it was "warm all year, wet in summer, chilly nights in winter". That actually imparts quite a lot of information in the space of a nanosecond. The source you found would be fine, by the way. Skinsmoke (talk) 07:58, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Added weather infobox for Agartala.--Dwaipayan (talk) 00:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Image positioning[edit]

I hope overflowing of images to the next section is not a major problem per MoS, because that's what was happening prior to left aligning some of the images. You have any suggestion? Dwaipayan (talk) 18:01, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I spent hours last night struggling with the images at Tamil Nadu to try to get the positioning to comply with the Manual of Style, so Tripura looks like a doddle. Again, I'll have a look at them later tonight, and maybe have a go at the image captions too, if that's OK (if you want, take a look at Aberdaron and Kilham, Northumberland to see how I approached captions on those articles). Skinsmoke (talk) 18:28, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Regarding caption, yes please. It would be great if you come up with attractive ones.
Shall I keep the image positions as it is for now, and wait for your wand to work? Dwaipayan (talk) 18:39, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
A problem with Tripura has been the lack of good images. The two ok quality image are the one of the Tripuri children preparing for a dance, and the one depicting the traditional dress. Rest of the images, I thought, are not of good quality. However, I could not find better image in WP, wikimedia commons, or flickr under appropriate license. Anyway, we have to work with what we have.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:51, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
If you want, leave the image positioning to me (I quite enjoy the challenge!), and I'll see what I can do. To be honest, it doesn't look too difficult (famous last words!). On Tamil Nadu there were far too many images for the text, but I still more or less got it to work. Of course, screen resolution changes the way images display anyway, so what looks great to one person, doesn't always work out at another resolution. Skinsmoke (talk) 19:10, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Have done the image repositioning (may have to adjust once the captions have been expanded, but it's fine for now). There is room for a few more images. Possibilities include:
  • [[File:Tripura 01.jpg]] Possibly under "History"
  • [[File:Templeudaipur (48).JPG]] Possibly under a new section on "Religion" (which appears to be missing)
  • [[File:Mosquetripura (51).JPG]] Possibly under a new section on "Religion" (which appears to be missing)
  • [[File:Universal Prayer Hall,Ramakrishna Mission,Agartala,India.JPG]] Possibly under a new section on "Religion" (which appears to be missing)
  • [[File:Mosqueamarpur (46).JPG]] Possibly under a new section on "Religion" (which appears to be missing)
  • [[File:Durga puja pandal at Agartala(Scorpian ad ).jpg]] Possibly under a new section on "Religion" (which appears to be missing)
  • [[File:Agartala-mayday152.jpg]] Possibly under "Government and politics"
  • [[File:Cpmrallyagartala (33).JPG]] Possibly under "Government and politics"
  • [[File:Cpm-udaipur187.jpg]] Possibly under "Government and politics"
  • [[File:Manik sarkar.jpg]] Possibly under "Government and politics"
  • [[File:Durga Puja Agartala Tripura.jpg]] Possibly under "Divisions"
  • [[File:Puzzles in the toys and games area.jpg]] Possibly under "Education"
  • [[File:Internet research.JPG]] Possibly under "Education"
  • [[File:Dance of Tripura.jpg]] Possibly under "Culture"
  • [[File:Scorpian ad (2).jpg]] Possibly under "Culture"
  • [[File:Tripura159.jpg]] Possibly under "Economy"
I haven't checked the copyright status of these and some appear to have been removed at some time (either for copyright or space reasons). I think you have to be a little more inclusive on quality. I've tried to pick out the best of the bunch. Skinsmoke (talk) 20:21, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Among the images you listed, the coinage image and the temple in Udaipur look promising. I never saw that coinage image before. Many of the other images (most of which I checked before) can be used to replace some other image in the article, but do you really think those will add significantly new value? I would have loved to get some usable image of tribal practices (some worship or something), but there is none available that is remarkable. There are a few images of a palace in water that can be considered, too. But the coinage image seems more appropriate in History. However, its copyright status is dubious. Is it really own work?--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:48, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
As for the copyright status of the coins image, always a difficult one, but I think it might be worth seeing what the reviewer has to say. The image uploader appears to have a considerable number of similar uploads, which appear to be in similar style none of which have so far been challenged. He also seems to have been very active at Indian coinage. Possibly a coin collector? They could be nicked from somewhere, of course, but then so could any image where the uploader claims to have produced the image themself. I would say that, as it stands at the moment, there is no reason to doubt the veracity of his copyright claim.
Must admit, I quite like the image of the girls in school at the computer, if only for the contrast with the image already used of the bamboo school building. The two images tell a story in themselves, far better than any amount of text could do. Two completely different worlds! It might, incidentally, be worth commenting on the extremely high literacy rate for what is, to a large extent, a tribal society—approaching First World levels. Something of an achievement, which many Indian states must be envious of. Are there any reliable sources that account for this? Skinsmoke (talk) 02:29, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
I have just stumbled across an alternative image of Ujjayanta Palace at [[File:Ujjayanta Palace as seen from the Rajbari Lakes.jpg]], which was uncategorised on Wikimedia Commons, and so didn't show up. It's a pretty good image. Skinsmoke (talk) 03:02, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
Have now completed the image captions. Let me know if there's anything you're not happy with. Will try to have a go at copy editing at least part of the article later today (it's very late and I'm off to get a few hours sleep!). Skinsmoke (talk) 06:57, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
Wow! The captions are superb in general. I have following obsvations.
The captions in the geography image (that most lands we marshy during independence), transport (the autorickshaws are backbone), demographics( on the origin of Tripuri people) and education (the number of school, which also needs an as of year) would need references. That should not be a big problem. I must have read those somewhere.
Thanks a ton. The captions are truly magnificent. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:14, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
The marshes citation is in the Human Development Report at page 4.
I stole the auto rickshaws wording from the article here. Unfortunately it isn't cited, and I am struggling to justify it. I have found a direct quote at Your Story from the head of Rickshawale in Mumbai, but am not sure this is a reliable enough citation. I can find citations that they are the "backbone" of city transport in Bangalore, Mumbai, Puna and Delhi, but that just isn't good enough. Perhaps change the wording to a more vague "Auto rickshaws are a common form of city transport in Agartala....."?
The origins of the Tripuri is contained in Problems of Ethnicity in the North East by Braja Bihari Kumara on page 68.
The number of schools is cited in the text immediately to the right of the image and comes from page 232 of Economic Review of Tripura 2010–11. It is for the year 2010–11. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:04, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
Another option for the auto rickshaws is to use the wording in India Travel Guide by Tiki Travel, though there don't seem to be any page numbers. This states that they "are the most common means of hired transportation in India." However, it cannot be cited as it basically is a reprint of WikiTravel.Skinsmoke (talk) 17:17, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
Image positioning Yes check.svg Done. Skinsmoke (talk) 03:49, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Image captions Yes check.svg Done. Skinsmoke (talk) 03:49, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Image caption citations Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 05:37, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


Wow! I did not even realize religion is missing. Will add information on religion. However, separate subsection may not be necessary. It can be within demographics. I have to leave now, will resume editing within 24 hours. --Dwaipayan (talk) 20:28, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, I just checked the article. Religious make-up is mentioned in demographics. Local deities/worships are mentioned in Culture. Personally, I prefer to remain minimalistic (and follow summary style), so I don't think anything more is needed. The state is not really notable for religious aspects (unlike, say, Tamil Nadu which has loads of fine temples). Do you really think we would need to have a separate religion section, and that it would be substantial in volume?--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:48, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Dwaipayan, Tripura is not renown for a rich religious history or magnificent places of worship (apart from the Tripura Sundari Temple). Religious practices of the various tribes/ethnicities in the state today find only a trivial mention in most sources. Therefore, it doesn't make much sense to create a separate section for it. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 21:22, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm not all that fussed about religion, to be honest. Coming from a British viewpoint, it just seemed odd that it wasn't there, as for British articles on places we are recommended to include a section if possible, even for the smallest village. Mind you, for most of them the local church is probably the most historic building in the village, and there are usually copious sources about its history. For that reason, it seemed a glaring omission, and it looked like there might be an interesting tale to tell with the fusion of Hinduism, Islam (and maybe Buddhism and Christianity?). However, if the sources aren't there....
I do though think we need to consider what a Featured Article is all about. It isn't intended to highlight fields where Tripura excels, or is a world leader. Rather it is intended to show a comprehensive picture of life in Tripura. For example, Scottish religious architecture hardly compares to the great cathedrals of France, Spain and Italy, but that doesn't mean there isn't a story to tell. Indeed, the absence of such churches is part of the story of Scottish religion, which frowns on such ostentatious "idolatory". There is no way you can tell the story of Scotland without detailing the role religion has played in that story. Skinsmoke (talk) 02:29, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
IMO, this article has adequate coverage of religion.--Dwaipayan (talk) 00:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)


Again, from a distant perspective, the politics is fascinating, as Tripura is one of the states where the Communists have achieved real success at the ballot box. That marks it out as odd to European eyes (well, maybe not to Italian eyes, but certainly to northern European eyes), though I recognise it may not seem so remarkable to Indian eyes, as you are used to their successes in elections in West Bengal and Kerala as well. Skinsmoke (talk) 02:29, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I wonder what could be added. That it is one of just three states where Communists did win majority? That after West Bengal, this has the second longest-running democratically elected communist government? (I am not sure about this info, just thought that this might be the case).--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:32, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Definitely the first point. At the point they were first elected (in 1978? That would be ten years before the fall of the Berlin Wall), they would be one of very few communist governments in the world elected in free elections. When they lost the elections in 1988 they would be one of very few communist administrations anywhere to be democratically voted out of office. Is their success related to the large number of Bengalis? And, if so, why do the communists enjoy such success among the Bengali people? If the second point turns out to be true, it is probably worth mentioning. Incidentally, I was stunned, checking some facts for this reply, to find that the world's first democratically elected communist government was in....San Marino. San Marino???? Really???? Skinsmoke (talk) 07:40, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
I have added a small discourse on the communism in the state in "Politics" section. Please have a look, both for content and lucidity of the text. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 00:02, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
That looks about right to me. Maybe needs a little tweaking, but I'll deal with that when I get down to that section on the copy edit. It gets over the unusualness of Tripura's politics, giving a little background, without going overboard. Nice job. Skinsmoke (talk) 00:15, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Copyedit and withdrawal[edit]

If you give a nod that you are willing ti copyedit the article, I can withdraw the Tripura FAC, and re-submit at a later date. Just waiting for your nod!--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:14, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Have already started on the introduction. Skinsmoke (talk) 19:16, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
Am struggling with the second half of the first paragraph. How is the geography "characterised by five mountain ranges with intervening valleys, and a plain in the west where the capital Agartala is located?" Can we find a better way of putting this? The best I can come up with is "Tripura has five mountain ranges with intervening valleys. To the west, the capital Agartala is located on a plain," but I'm not terribly happy about that either. Skinsmoke (talk) 19:23, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
Honestly speaking, not sure. may be later something will suddenly come to the mind! For now, your version (two separate sentences) sounds better.--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:09, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done. With the addition of the climate and primates, it works quite well. Skinsmoke (talk) 03:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
However, on a quick read, I feel the bamboo and primate sentence is not really coalescing well with the preceding sentence/other sentences of that paragraph. I feel that sentence would be more suitable right after the forest/biodiversity sentence (if needed, we may have to remove the livelihood for tribes bit from that sentence). What do you think? It seems more thematically connected to mention the peculiarity of flora, and notability of primates right after mentioning remarkable biodiversity.--Dwaipayan (talk) 05:47, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes and no. Bit of a difficult one, as adding further information about the flora and fauna changes the nature of the paragraph, which is primarily about economics. Tried a few things, but eventually plumped for moving the biodiversity up to the geography paragraph, even though this means sacrificing the link between the tribal use of forest resources and the economy. Yes check.svg Done Tough one, though. Skinsmoke (talk) 08:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
IMO it looks ok, and thematically not disconnected now.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:39, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Progress summary
  • Introduction Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 09:56, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Origin of name Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 09:56, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
  • History Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 09:56, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Geography and climate Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 15:58, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Next actions

Once the copy edit has been completed I intend to step away from the article for 24 hours, so as to be able to do a second copy edit run with "fresh eyes". Skinsmoke (talk) 16:00, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Indian English[edit]

I am not sure which form Indian English uses in a couple of instances. Does it follow British English or Oxford spelling in "ise/ize" words? Do Indians "recognise" something, or do they "recognize" it? The norm in British English is to "recognise", "organise" or "Sanskritise", though the Oxford English Dictionary prefers (but leaves it optional) to "recognize", "organize" or "Sanskritize". I also note the use of American English in compass points, such as Northeast India. Is this the norm in Indian English? Modern British English would use North East India. Does Indian English use the British "per cent" or the American "percent"? Finally (for the moment), I may need some help on lakhs and crores! I have used British English in most cases, but will change this to Indian English when these points are clarified. Skinsmoke (talk) 03:22, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done. The article at Indian English advises "per cent". Skinsmoke (talk) 03:57, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done. Geographic coordinates converted to British English. Skinsmoke (talk) 16:02, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done. Converted "ize" words to "ise" per British English. Skinsmoke (talk) 16:05, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
The article uses a {{Use British English|date=September 2012}} tag. I wouldn't bother with Indian English if I were you. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 04:00, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Indians Organise and Sanskritise. I was not aware of Northeast versus North East. The article follows British English.--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:16, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Makes life a bit easier for me. Skinsmoke (talk) 04:24, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


I'm not great at infobox layout (I usually end up threatening to throw the computer out of the window, as I get so exasperated!), but is it possible to get a border round the infobox under "Healthcare"? In fact, it might be an idea to review all four infoboxes, to try to get a common style (one has the heading outside the box; one has the heading with a blue background; one has the heading with no background; and one has an unbolded heading, no background and no border). Skinsmoke (talk) 04:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I am also very weak in table formatting. Will look into this in the coming week.--Dwaipayan (talk) 05:13, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Might be worth checking to see if anyone at Wikipedia:WikiProject India is a whizz at table formatting. Skinsmoke (talk) 05:47, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Tried to streamline those. Have a look.--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:31, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Oh, I like. Not bad for someone who's "weak in table formatting". I'm suitably impressed. They have a much more coherent look, and the Health Indices box is a 1,000 per cent improvement! Well done! Skinsmoke (talk) 23:49, 15 January 2013 (UTC)


"however, it remains undecided if the extent of modern Tripura is cognate with Kirat Desh."

"Cognate" doesn't seem to be the correct word in this context. "Cognate" means "One of a number of things allied in origin or nature.", whereas I think you mean "covered the same area as". I can't, for the life of me, think of the correct word in this context. Hopefully, it will come to me later, but any suggestions? Skinsmoke (talk) 06:11, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Correct term is "coterminous". Skinsmoke (talk) 06:30, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Reversal of demographics[edit]

"Reversal of demographics led to tribes becoming a minority."

What does this mean? How can "demographics", the characteristics of human populations for purposes of social studies, be reversed? Skinsmoke (talk) 08:20, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

It means that the proportion of various population subgroups in the state changed (possibly because of migration) such that the minority population (non–tribal people) became the majority. Somehow the usage seems perfectly legit to me, maybe it's an Indian thing. :) Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 16:44, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
I thought that was the gist of it, but needed to confirm it. It's almost as if it's "shorthand", and looks really uncomfortable to my, admittedly English, eyes. Must admit I've never heard of "demographics" being "reversed" before. I'll play around with it and see what I can come up with. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:20, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Changed the construction to avoid confusion.--Dwaipayan (talk) 00:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)


As I was reading through, the thought occurred to me whether "Tribal" is an acceptable term. Here in the United Kingdom it would be considered a demeaning and pejorative term, suggesting a primitive people with little formal education, and somewhat "backwards" in terms of human development. We would use "Tripuri people", "Tripuri nation", "Tripuri ethnic group" or simply "Tripuris" instead. I know it is still used in official circles in India, but I think you have to ask yourself, would you refer to the "Hindi tribe" or the "Bengali tribe". If not, why is it considered acceptable for ethnic groups that don't carry as much clout in Indian socio-political society? Skinsmoke (talk) 15:22, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Personally I agree with you in the possible pejorative sense of the term tribal, especially when used in the Western culture. Even in India it has a demeaning sense sometimes.
In this case, we can not use "Tripuri" (or any word complex with Tripuri) to replace tribal. Becasue Tripuri people happens to be just one of the 19 major scheduled tribes and many more subtribes. So, in case of India, what complicates the matters is the legal categorisation of scheduled tribes, on top of the semantic meaning of tribe.
So, I can not recommend any word or word-complex to replace tribal in general. However, each instance of tribal in the article can be reviewed to determine if any other word(s) can be used for that particular instance. Perhaps some word play with "tribe" in case of some instances may be possible. For some unknown reason, the word "tribe" seems less pejorative than "tribal" to me.--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:30, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
The word "tribal" continues to be used officially, among tribes, and in general. Example, The Tripura Tribal Areas Autonomous District Council (TTADC). So, not really sure if we need to address this. As I told above, perhaps each instance of "tribal" may be judged individually to look for any other words. However, in some cases, tribal would be the best word, for example, describing the scope of TTADC. --Dwaipayan (talk) 18:35, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
I get the difference between Tripuris and other groups, and was referring in particular to the Tripuri people, not the "People of Tripura", if you see what I mean. I think where the official use includes "tribal" we have to go with that, so "scheduled tribes" is acceptable as it's a legal definition, as is Tripura Tribal Areas Autonomous District Council, and hence also "tribal area", but I like your suggestion of approaching each use and seeing if we can find a less condescending word in that particular instance. "Ethnic minorities" is one possibility that springs to mind, or (in all but the case of the Munda), "Tibeto-Burman peoples", "Tibeto-Burman groups", "Tibeto-Burman nationalities" or "Tibeto-Burman speakers" may work (for the Munda, the equivalent would be "Austro-Asiatic people" or "Austro-Asiatic speakers", etc, or simply "Munda"). In some cases, "Tibeto-Burman and Munda minorities" may also work, as may "indigenous peoples" or "indigenous groups" occasionally. One thing, which I have come across sometimes in Indian publications, should definitely be out, and that is "tribals", which somehow to western ears sounds as patronising as you could possibly get. Don't worry, I'm not suggesting we use the Canadian term "First Nations". Skinsmoke (talk) 00:11, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
How does this work?

In the 2001 census of India, Bengalis represented almost 69 per cent of Tripura's population, while the indigenous population amounted to 31 per cent. The "scheduled tribes", historically disadvantaged indigenous groups of people recognised by the country's constitution, consist of 19 ethnic groups and many sub-groups, with diverse languages and cultures. In 2001, the largest indigenous such group was the Kokborok-speaking Tripuris, which had a population of 543,848, representing 17.0 per cent of the state's population and 54.7 per cent of the "scheduled tribe" population. The other major groups, in descending order of population, were the Reang (16.6 per cent of the indigenous population), Jamatia (7.5 per cent), Chakma (6.5 per cent), Halam (4.8 per cent), Mog (3.1 per cent), Munda (1.2 per cent), Kuki (1.2 per cent) and Garo (1.1 per cent). Bengali is the most widely spoken language, due to the large number of Bengali people in the state.

Skinsmoke (talk) 00:45, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
The use of word "indigenous" to refer to all tribal groups is problematic and could be seen as original research. Scheduled tribes were defined using 6 or 7 vague criteria and AFAI can recall indigenousness to a particular state/region wasn't one of them. We can't be sure, without reliable sources, that Kukis, Chakmas and others were really native to the state and not recent migrants. I don't think we want to get into that. Kukis would be seen as disadvantaged groups and scheduled tribes even if they lived in Mumbai. Replacing tribes with indigenous people doesn't work well. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 01:22, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
PS Migration of Chakmas into Tripura from Chittagong Hill Tracts in recent times is well documented.[6][7] Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 01:43, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Actually, it's not as big a problem as you think. The term "indigenous" was defined by the International Labour Organization through the Indigenous and Tribal Populations Convention, 1957, which was superceded by the Indigenous and Tribal Peoples Convention, 1989, drawn up in cooperation with the United Nations, the Food and Agriculture Organization, UNESCO and the World Health Organization. This stated:

1. This Convention applies to:

(a) tribal peoples in independent countries whose social, cultural and economic conditions distinguish them from other sections of the national community, and whose status is regulated wholly or partially by their own customs or traditions or by special laws or regulations;
(b) peoples in independent countries who are regarded as indigenous on account of their descent from the populations which inhabited the country, or a geographical region to which the country belongs, at the time of conquest or colonisation or the establishment of present state boundaries and who, irrespective of their legal status, retain some or all of their own social, economic, cultural and political institutions.
2. Self-identification as indigenous or tribal shall be regarded as a fundamental criterion for determining the groups to which the provisions of this Convention apply.
Indigenous and Tribal Peoples Convention, 1989, Chapter 169

It doesn't really matter, under this definition, whether the Kukis, Chakmas or any others were native to Tripura. Under international law, they qualify as "indigenous" by being in India, or the geographical region to which it belongs prior to independence (the establishment of present state boundaries). Skinsmoke (talk) 03:43, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes, but Chakmas (at least thousands of them who migrated from Bangladesh) were not in India, or the geographical region to which it belongs prior to independence. Isn't that a problem? Furthermore, as long as we are changing "tribal" to "indigenous" because of how it's perceived in the western world, we must not forget that indigenous is often perceived as 1(b) in the definition above. This definition would be inaccurate for many tribal groups in Tripura. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 03:49, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
No. Bangladesh was part of India, prior to India's independence. They were the same country, which was partitioned in 1947. In any case, they both belong to the same geographic region, which would be "South Asia" or the "British Raj" or "British India". More specifically, both Bangladesh and Tripura came under the control of the British governor of Bengal. Given that both part of India and the whole of Bangladesh fell within the same British province, there is no possible way to sustain an argument that the two countries are not (and were not) part of the same geographic region. In other words, it is precisely because of 1(b) that "indigenous" is appropriate. Skinsmoke (talk) 04:14, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't know if I am getting this right, but "or the geographical region to which it belongs prior to independence" would mean the current boundaries of India extended to a period before independence. Besides, British Raj is not geographically similar to India or South Asia. And yes these people were governed by the same governor of Bengal, but I don't see how that would matter given that the immigration happened after the formation of Bangladesh. It seems misleading to call natives of CHT indigenous to Tripura or India. Finally, when I say indigenous often means 1(b) I mean this part— "colonisation or the establishment of present state boundaries and who, irrespective of their legal status, retain some or all of their own social, economic, cultural and political institutions." In this context, usage of "indigenous" seems incorrect for some of the groups at least. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 04:28, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
I think we are getting stuck into legal/source based arguments unnecessarily, this is not a content dispute. My point is, calling a group indigenous or native to a place in Northeast will rub some Indians the wrong way. During the recent violent episode in Assam, both Bodos and Bengali Muslims were trying to prove that the other group was not a native of Assam. "Indigenous" will remain a loaded word for people in these regions and care must be exercised in using it. You can go ahead with the paragraph if you think it's appropriate, I will not object to it anymore. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 04:52, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
There was an edit conflict there. No, the wording is "or a geographical region to which the country belongs, at the time of conquest or colonisation or the establishment of present state boundaries". In other words, a "geographical region" to which India belonged (whether at the time of conquest or colonisation, or in 1947; not a "geographical region" defined by the current boundaries of India. Immediately prior to independence, India consisted of what is now the Republic of India, Bangladesh and Pakistan. (A case could probably be made that the "geographical region" also extended to include present-day Afghanistan, Nepal, Bhutan, the Maldives, Myanmar and even Sri Lanka, but that would be one for the international lawyers to argue over.) Pre-independence India, in terms of the convention, is the "geographical region" to which the Republic of India belongs. What are now India and Bangladesh were inextricably linked, not only in terms of political administration, but also in economic and cultural terms.
Remember also that what we are discussing are indigenous peoples, not "people indigenous to India" (or "people indigenous to Tripura"), which is a different meaning of the word. Over the years, the use of the word has changed to encompass a different group of people. For example, the Bengali people are "indigenous to India", but they are not considered to be an "indigenous people" (though I could envisage a bloody good lawyer proving that legally they are), because they don't self-identify as "indigenous" or "tribal". Skinsmoke (talk) 05:08, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Another edit conflict! I do take your point about the ethnic conflicts in Assam though, and a footnote explaining the about the ILO definition of the term would make sense. Hopefully, that would help to deal with your concerns. Skinsmoke (talk) 05:08, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
In any case, I'm not saying that the wording is finalised. I'll have another look at it later today or tomorrow, before making any changes, and see if I can come up with anything better. I may argue the case (I might even play devil's advocate), but I have no intention of being dogmatic about anything on this article. The last I want to see is the sort of open warfare that seemed to break out when Hyderabad was put up for Featured Article status, which resulted in half the people involved wanting nothing more to do with either the article or the review. Skinsmoke (talk) 05:08, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
I made some edits in your suggested version above, trying to avoid any term as much as possible!--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:02, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Quite happy with that. Not had a chance to do very much today (and may struggle for the next couple of days), but should be back up to speed this weekend, with a bit of luck. Skinsmoke (talk) 04:19, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Tried to reduce the usage of tribal and tribes. However, those should be used in certain instances, s "scheduled tribe" is an official term. More reduction in usage may be done later during further copyedits. Also, explained in the lead that scheduled tribe means indigenous people for the ease of a global auience.--Dwaipayan (talk) 00:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you![edit]

Thank you for your explanation. I had changed "North East" to "Northeast" only because the Wikipedia article on Northeast India spells it as one word. Caeruleancentaur (talk) 02:32, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I thought that was probably the case. In fact, I even queried it with a couple of Indian editors who are working on the article to see what form is used in Indian English, but they insisted the British English form should be used. Skinsmoke (talk) 02:43, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Stafford, Virginia RM[edit]

Hi Skinsmoke, I don't know if you watch RM discussions you participate in, but if not, the one at Talk:Stafford, Virginia#Requested move has a few extended discussions and oppose rationales now. You thought the issue was straightforward; it appeared so when you replied, but IMO is certainly not now. If you haven't seen the newer input there, maybe take a look and see if it affects your position. If you have, and you just stand by your initial vote, then that's alright too, of course. Thanks, BDD (talk) 16:13, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for January 27[edit]

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Yes check.svg Done Fixed. Skinsmoke (talk) 15:25, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Stardust (2007 film)[edit]

I've removed four of your category additions. At the moment the article text and the refs support the first 7 Buckinghamshire (Pinewood), Highland (Wester Ross, Skye), Hertfordshire (Little Gaddesden), Wiltshire (Castle Combe), Oxfordshire (Bicester Airfield) and Norfolk (Elm Hill) if you have sources for North Yorkshire, Carmarthenshire, or Gloucestershire I'd appreciate them being used to round out the article. Argyll and Bute is almost certainly wrong, as I did some logistical work for the Scottish part of the shoot and it was all Wester Ross/Skye not Argyll or Bute. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 09:16, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi Stuart. Thanks for your note. I've taken the locations from IMDb, which, or course, is not a "reliable source". This gives the street outside Victoria's house as Arlington Row at Bibury in Gloucestershire, and includes filming at Menwith Hill in North Yorkshire (presumably not the early-warning station!) and Llyn y Fan Fach in Carmarthenshire. It also suggests that filming took part in the Argyll and Bute part of Loch Lomond (I thought they'd used Loch Maree, but that was only a guess). Notably it does not mention Kinlochewe in Highland, which I was personally aware of, having friends in the village who were very excited about the whole thing (and there are copies of local newspaper articles plastered to the wall in nearly every holiday let in the village!). They proudly show visitors the path that was built by the film crew, and which now leads from the village to the visitor centre down the road.
In any case, I'm not going to get all shirty about it. I acknowledge IMDb's not a brilliant source, and if there's anything you're not happy with I'm quite happy to go along with you. However, the Bibury entry looks like it may be worth looking into, particularly as it is also listed at British Film Locations, another unreliable source. It is also given at The Worldwide Guide to Movie Locations, but I've not got a clue how reliable that site is, but it gives the imprtession it knows what it's talking about. This also suggests that Elveden Hall in Suffolk was used as a location (the Wikipedia article on the hall also notes this). Also given at this site is Llyn y Fan Fach. Finally, perhaps a bit more authoritative, the British Film Institute also gives Bibury as a location. Skinsmoke (talk) 10:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Yes it was Loch Maree, Unit Base was Kinlochewe Caravan Site (though the source given only states generally Wester Ross, hence the article states that) Some shots may have been of Loch Clair as well but there was never a unit at Loch Lomond unless the helicopter picked up some shots on the way back to Glasgow (I don't recognise any of the loch shots in the final film as being anything other than Maree though.)
Bibury looks to be a good find and the BFI should be reliable for it. Llyn y Fan Fach and Mynydd Llan were used and I can source them now (Beacons to shine in film Stardust, Western Mail, January 29, 2007), but they literally appear for a few seconds it's probably disingenuous to categorise the film as having been shot there. The same may apply to a few other of the filming locations - even Iceland is marginal appearing for about a minute. Perhaps the least controversial would be to categorise with a single parent category "films shot in the UK" for instance. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 13:26, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Harry Potter film locations[edit]

I noticed you have added quite a few specific location categories to Harry Potter film articles. But as mentioned above, on Wikipedia we generally require that categories in an article be supported by both the article prose and by reliable secondary sources. Now it's fine by me if you want to source these locations to IMDb or something, but we really need to write about them in the article text, otherwise the categories are just hanging out there unsupported. Thanks for your consideration. Elizium23 (talk) 13:40, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Kozhikode and Puducheri[edit]

Hi Skinsmoke, EdJ (good chap) fixed Kwami's undiscussed move. I left a message of thanks on EdJ's Talk as a heads up to WT:RM#Talk:Neve Şalom Synagogue. And Kyoto etc etc. Your input on wording change to minimise future unneccessary WP:BRD RMs is welcome In ictu oculi (talk) 02:47, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that. It looks like someone has been "on a mission". Skinsmoke (talk) 02:51, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Re:IndicScript in lead and multiple WikiProjects[edit]

Hello User:Skinsmoke, it's nice to meet you. I noticed your comments here and was wondering if you felt like starting a discussion to reinstate Indic scripts in WP:India related articles. I look forward to hearing from you soon. With regards, AnupamTalk 04:54, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what else we can do. I picked up on the comments by Tito Dutta, which you have also now added to. It's really up to others at the project to comment, and see if we can build consensus to reverse the decision. Personally, I think the Chinese style infobox may be a compromise (and possibly even a better solution). One of the problems with Indian articles was (and is) that there was usually no transliteration of the Indic script, which leads those who cannot read the script to doubt its value in the article. Skinsmoke (talk) 08:27, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply User:Skinsmoke, I agree with your idea of creating a Chinese style infobox. I will probably add an RfC tag at the discussion we both commented on so we can generate more discussion. Please keep an eye on it. With regards, AnupamTalk 17:46, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Will do. Can't read Indic script myself, but I can read Cyrillic and Greek, and must admit that for eastern European articles I always take a look at the local script. It might be worthwhile seeing if editors and projects interested in Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Bhutan, Nepal, Pakistan and Myanmar (even the Maldives and Afghanistan) would be keen on jointly developing a South Asian languages infobox (the Chinese one is used for Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan as well as China itself, with local variations for Inner Mongolia, Xingiang and Tibet). There is even scope for extending (perhaps a hybrid Chinese and South Asian version) to Singapore and Malaysia articles. Skinsmoke (talk) 18:01, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Dear User:Skinsmoke, thanks for your reply. Like you, for South Asian related articles (Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, etc.), I always take a look at the local script as well! User:Regentspark informed me that the previous consensus stated that scripts could be added to the infobox of geographical related articles, as long as they are official languages in the region. You can review a recent edit I made to the article about Delhi. I would welcome a proposal to make a South Asian language infobox. Let me know when you make this proposal. I would love to help you work on this! With regards, AnupamTalk 22:03, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
I've made a formal suggestion for an experiment and (if successful) a trial run at Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics. However, I don't have the knowledge of scripts (or official languages) to be able to produce the couple of examples I'm suggesting. Skinsmoke (talk) 23:30, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Rivers in Puducherry should be on new section[edit]

Added rivers under Economic Trends by comparing it with I too feel awkward to add it under Economic Trends. Anyway Now I will open up new section to add the Rivers. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pselvaganapathy (talkcontribs) 15:24, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I see what you mean. Tamil Nadu looks very odd. Can I suggest you make "Rivers" a sub-section of "Geography" (three "=" signs for a sub-heading, instead of two), as it should fit in with that quite well. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:44, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for ur suggestion Pselvaganapathy (talk) 18:20, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Knock knock[edit]

Hello! How are you doing? have done some edits in Tripura. One of the edits, unfortunately, involved editing over your edits. That concerned the use of "while". I saw in the past in some FACs that they suggest using "while" sparing;y. That's why I changed some sentence constructions in the lead.

If you feel like, please resume copyediting and improving the article. I have tried to reduce the incidence of "tribe". --Dwaipayan (talk) 06:41, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi. I will be back, honest! I'd actually come to Indian articles because I was involved in the debate over the move of Pondicherry to Puducherry and, as that was finalised, have been up to my neck in cleaning up after it. It's taken a lot longer than anticipated. Just trying to get the categories sorted out now, and then can get back to some copy editing. I was thinking of doing the same with Odisha following its move from Orissa but, after the amount of time Puducherry has taken, maybe I'll just leave it for someone else to do. At least that one isn't complicated by confusion over the city, district and territory.
Don't worry about changing a few things. Sometimes I find I change the wording around five or six times before I find something I'm really happy with. You can struggle for days to find the right words, and then suddenly it comes to you. And, of course, there are times when you look at it on a new day and think Why on earth did I put it like that?. Skinsmoke (talk) 06:50, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
LoL! Yes, it happens. It particularly happens to us for whom English is a learned language (not the native tongue). Some articles written by you guys (English native language), on the other hand, reads so nice and fluid, it's so exhilarating to read.--Dwaipayan (talk) 07:09, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Did you realise you can often tell where the person who has written it comes from, just by the words they use? There are certain words used more in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or various parts of England, which people from other areas tend not to use. For example, when you see outwith used to mean outside, apart from or other than, it's almost certain the writer is from Scotland, where the word is extremely common, whereas it's practically unknown in England. It's all to do with the Vikings and the influence Norwegian had on the Scots language and the English now spoken there. Outwith comes from the Swedish phrase utan med and is used in Scotland in exactly the same way as that is in Swedish and Norwegian. In central and southern England though (and to an extent northern England), the influence was from Danish rather than Norwegian, and was much more affected by French (and even German and Dutch). It's worth looking out for, even if just for your own amusement. Skinsmoke (talk) 07:27, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
I was not aware of these particular examples, but yes, use of words can often suggest the origin of the author, perhaps in any language. I have definitely notices this in Bengali, my mother tongue. And now I sometimes am able to pick up such regional variations in northern America, though not all.--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:11, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

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Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 16:57, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Orissa → Odisha[edit]

Good day, Skinsmoke. I see that you're updating a number of "Orissa"s to "Odisha". While this is good for the most part, we shouldn't be changing them when the text refers to Orissa at a time when the state was called by its older name (i.e. before 2011). For example, here. The same goes for Bombay, Calcutta, Madras, Calicut etc.—indopug (talk) 02:32, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

That wasn't the decision of the Requested move discussion. The point was made (by another editor) that historical mentions should also be changed, and was not challenged by anyone taking part in the discussion. The consensus was therefore to change all mentions of Orissa, presumably because this is considered a revised transliteration of the Oriya name, rather than a "new" name. Skinsmoke (talk) 02:37, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Huh? How can consensus at a requested-move discussion determine the content of other articles (especially when there are historical factors involved)? The results of a requested-move discussion are relevant only to the name of that particular article.
Also, you seem to have misunderstood the idea of consensus. Just because nobody opposed a point somebody made in a discussion, that doesn't mean there is consensus for that point. Certainly, there is no indication in the closing-note to change all mentions of the word.
I will be reverting your edit now. In the spirit of WP:BRD, please start a discussion on the Indira Gandhi talkpage to gain consensus to change that article.
I also urge you to get further clarifications from more-general forums such as WT:INDIA or the relevant MoS talkpage, before making more mass changes.—indopug (talk) 13:59, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Frankly, I'm not that fussed either way personally. However, I would urge you, if you amend the page, to use a piped link: <no wiki>[Odisha|Orissa]</no wiki>. Skinsmoke (talk) 14:03, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for that! Skinsmoke (talk) 14:19, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Another small note on this: the edit summary you have been using (Disambiguated OrissaOdisha) is misleading, because Orissa isn't a disambiguation page. Also, on the above point, the manual of style says "do not use a piped link where it is possible to use a redirected term that fits well within the scope of the text". Sorry if this sounds nitpicky, but when you're making such a wide change (it's shown up quite randomly on two pages on my watchlist even though I don't edit India-related topics), it pays to get the details right! Joe Roe (talk) 10:26, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Goalpariya dialect[edit]

Thanks for your edits. The section is not complete yet, with the latest developments yet to find a place. The initial 19th-20th centuries debate did end somewhat, because it was an active trench war then, which involved rigging survey data for a period over 2/3 decades. That situation does not exist now. Chaipau (talk) 09:22, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Must admit I'm not terribly happy about what is now the second paragraph of that section. I've tried to do what I can with it, but it still isn't good. Skinsmoke (talk) 09:32, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
You may remove the repetitive parts. Chaipau (talk) 17:05, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Orissa vs Odisha[edit]

Hi. Please note that the name of Orissa state was changed to Odisha only in November 2011, so all historical mentions of the state before that should still have the name Orissa. It is same as with Bombay/Mumbai, etc.. --Soman (talk) 20:11, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

This was not as discussed during the Requested move process. To be honest, the problem of historical names is a bit hazy in Wikipedia guidelines. Where the name has changed completely, there is no doubt that the historic name should be used when it is important to its context. However, where there is a change in the way the name is transliterated into English, we normally accept the new transliteration even in historical contexts, except in very specific cases where the name forms part of an established title. Thus we refer throughout its history to Nanjing (Nanjing first became a capital in 229 CE...), except in the case of the Treaty of Nanking (which is an accepted term in English), even though the pinyin spelling is fairly recent. It would look very strange if we referred to the Black Hole of Kolkata, because Black Hole of Calcutta is firmly embedded in peoples' minds, but we are told Kolkata's recorded history began in 1690 with the arrival of the English East India Company. Even in a historical context we refer to the Welsh town of Caernarfon, even though for much of its history it was known in English as Carnarvon and, later, Caernarvon, because the Welsh language spelling has been unchanged throughout, and it is simply a matter of the English name changing from a bastardisation of that name, to adopting the native spelling. In the case of Orissa/Odisha, as far as I understand it the Oriya language name is unchanged, and it is simply the transliteration into English that has changed. Indeed, for much of its history, what is now Odisha wasn't even referred to as Orissa in English (though Wikipedia editors seem to have had no problem labeling it as such). It is a bit rich, for example, arguing that the name in the 12th century was Orissa when the English speaking world wasn't even aware of its existence (and hadn't, incidentally, even formulated a common spelling of places in England, never mind India). When we discuss Roman Britain, we refer to London, not to Londinium, although an article specifically about Roman London would be expected to mention that it was known as such by the Romans. Similarly, we refer to Roman Chester, even though at the time it was called Deva, and to Viking York, even though the city was then known as Jorvik. Finally, an example from the article on New York City, where we are told that "The first documented visit by a European was in 1524 by Giovanni da Verrazzano, a Florentine explorer in the service of the French crown, who sailed his ship La Dauphine into New York Harbor, where he spent one night aboard ship and sailed out the next day." Well, he most certainly didn't sail into New York Harbor according to your argument, as nobody on this planet was to call the area New York for another 143 years, and it would be another 240 years after that before the Americans adopted the spelling Harbor. Skinsmoke (talk) 20:33, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
Look, there might be complexities in how to deal with how to name the region when dealing with pre-modern times. However, my concern relates to articles from period of the late colonial period and post-Independence up to 2011, during which Orissa was the official name in English used by all parties. For example edits like this are problematic. --Soman (talk) 07:40, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
I could understand your point, except that we now have (for example) 1999 Odisha cyclone, List of Chief Ministers of Odisha (covering the period from 1937 onwards) (not moves I made, I hasten to add) and numerous similar examples. Is the reader better served by swapping and changing year-by-year between Orissa and Odisha, depending on whether it's a cyclone or a legislative election or a chief minister? And do you really think most of our readers know where either Orissa or Odisha are (the general view in the Requested move process was that the state just isn't well-known at all outside India)? Again I point to the examples I quoted above, which you appear to ignore. Nanjing was known as Nanking in English until very recently, yet we customarily use the pinyin spelling (Nanjing) for the period before pinyin was adopted internationally. Skinsmoke (talk) 09:04, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
List of Chief Ministers of Odisha is perferctly fine, as it covers both pre- and post-name change ministers. But an event in 1999 should definately be named with 'Orissa'. --Soman (talk) 09:07, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
You may think that, but that wasn't the result of the Requested move process. Skinsmoke (talk) 09:36, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
I would add that the Requested move discussion was advertised at Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics in the following terms:

A discussion for moving Odisha related articles to "... Odisha" from "... Orissa", and to built clear consensus whether all related articles will henceforth use Odisha in the articles is taking place here. Everyone is invited to participate in the discussion. Amartyabag TALK2ME 16:05, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Skinsmoke (talk) 10:10, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
The outcome of that discussion is different, it relates to general thematic pages about Odisha and the move is quite uncontroversial. But for events that took place within the 1956-2011 time frame no such change should be done. Please, don't do automated changes (are you using AWB or other script?), you as an editor need to review and evaluate each article individually. --Soman (talk) 14:33, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
No, the changes are being done manually. Wouldn't it show up if I was using an automated script? Skinsmoke (talk) 14:43, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Good point regarding Lakshadweep, I reverted the edit now. However, it did get a bit frustrating to have to follow up in the edits on so many articles. --Soman (talk) 15:26, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for that, and sorry for snapping at you on your Talk page. Just that I thought You try to be all conciliatory and sort it out by inviting him on his Talk page to have a look at the edit, and this is what you get! Skinsmoke (talk) 15:42, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
No problem. But, sorry, here there is a change in a direct quote. --Soman (talk) 19:10, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
You're right. Thanks for spotting that (and reverting it). I have been trying, quite deliberately, to avoid direct quotes, but obviously missed that one. Skinsmoke (talk) 19:17, 17 February 2013 (UTC)


WP:BURDEN does not state that you must firstly tag a source that needs citation, but it does say 'Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed'. I don't see how it helps to re-insert all that material without cites, much of which is badly written. How has the article got in such a bad state? Eldumpo (talk) 08:11, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree it is badly written and a bit unloved. I know that a number of Indian editors are working on bringing states articles up to featured article status (they are currently working on Tripura, and I think Sikkim is lined up for future work). It might be an idea to raise your concerns at Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics and see whether it can be added to their worklist. I am sure they would also welcome any help you can give them!
However, I think you need to read the link you provided:

Attribute all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. Cite the source clearly and precisely (specifying page, section, or such divisions as may be appropriate). The citation must clearly support the material as presented in the article. See Citing sources for details of how to do this.

Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed. Whether and how quickly this should happen depends on the material and the overall state of the article. Editors might object if you remove material without giving them time to provide references; consider adding a citation needed tag as an interim step. When tagging or removing material for not having an inline citation, please state your concern that there may not be a published reliable source for the content, and therefore it may not be verifiable. If instead you think the material is verifiable, try to provide an inline citation yourself before considering whether to remove or tag it.
However, do not leave unsourced or poorly sourced material in an article if it might damage the reputation of living people or groups, and do not move it to the talk page. You should also be aware of how the BLP policy applies to groups.
Sometimes editors will disagree on whether material is verifiable. The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a reliable source that directly supports the material.

If you look further up that page you will see:

All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material. Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed. Please remove unsourced contentious material about living people immediately.

In other words quotations must be cited, as must contentious material about living people. Anything else must be verifiable. It does not have to be cited, although best practice is to do so.
I reverted the changes because you managed to remove whole sections that had some significance. As an example, your butchering of the history section completely removed any mention of the state being created.
If you check the article's history, you will see that, immediately before your changes, I reverted the addition of uncited statistics on the basis that they should be cited. Reverting an addtition, and removing whole sections of a relatively stable article are entirely different things. If we were all to take the approach you took here, we could probably remove about 90 per cent of the encyclopedia's content, particularly as much of it was written prior to the regulations on citing material being tightened up (though not as tightly as you seem to think they have been). Skinsmoke (talk) 08:20, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

I think it's unhelpful to talk of vandalism. Also, it is not the case that the guidelines state you should firstly tag that a citation is needed. I did already read the 1st block you quoted and already posted one quote above, whilst another says challenged material must have an inline-cite. I'm also not aware of any 'grandfather rules' relating to articles written before x guidelines came into effect. Eldumpo (talk) 20:56, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

I think you've just answered that one yourself. It says any material challenged must have an inline citation. The material you removed had not been challenged. Ultimately, you have to ask yourself, did you improve the article by removing information that readers may have been interested in, or been looking for? Wasn't the date the province was established relevant to the article? Was the name of the first Governor relevant? Was the transfer of a district from Madras relevant? Was the incorporation of parts of the area into Bengal relevant? Were the temples relevant? And the saris distinctiveness? Were the lake and bird sanctuary relevant? Was the highest mountain in the state relevant? Were the announced investment plans relevant? Was the establishment of Special Economic Zones relevant? And were all these things verifiable, which is all they have to be under our present rules?
The fact that you are misinterpreting the guidelines and being overzealous, admitedly with the best of intentions, might well be considered as vandalism by others, given that you are removing large passages of relevant information. If you read my initial message to you, I did not accuse you of vandalism, because I could see what you were trying to do, but I did warn you that it could be considered as such. The whole concept of "drive-by blanking" tends to be frowned on by the community.
Ultimately, if you are still not happy, why not raise the point at Wikipedia talk:Verifiability and see what the consensus is? Skinsmoke (talk) 06:43, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Hi man, thanks for your various sensible postings. Can I just ask why you haven't commented on the Talk:Oriya language to Odiya move when you already posted above it? In ictu oculi (talk) 03:46, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for that. I've not been near Requested moves for a couple of days as I've been a bit busy. It wasn't there last time I posted on that page. I'll have a look. Skinsmoke (talk) 08:24, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Oh well. Have done a brief search run and I don't think the results were what either of us would prefer. I don't have time to analyse the detailed results this morning, but it's not looking hopeful. Bizarrely, Indian English seems the most reluctant to change. Skinsmoke (talk) 09:38, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

A little help[edit]

I would kindly request you to have a look on Bhubaneswar (capital of Odisha) which requires a copyedit for better prose (aiming for a GA in near future). It will be helpful if you can help with bit of copyedit. Amartyabag TALK2ME 11:16, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I'll have a look tonight if that's OK. Skinsmoke (talk) 12:04, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
It's going to be tomorrow night at the earliest, due to commitments outside Wikipedia. Skinsmoke (talk) 22:34, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Its ok. Take your time. Amartyabag TALK2ME 03:31, 20 February 2013 (UTC)


Hi! I replied at Template talk:Editnotices/Page/Gurgaon WhisperToMe (talk) 19:07, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

February 2013[edit]

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would ask that you assume good faith while interacting with other editors, which you did not on User_talk:Plantdrew. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. this change is offensive to several editors. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 17:08, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Grow up. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:39, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion[edit]

I have explained what happened at this page. Hopefully you can see that I am not a vandal. Bevo74 (talk) 12:18, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Not a problem. I chose my words carefully, because vandalism didn't seem to fit in with your history, otherwise I'd have just noted it "Reverting vandalism". I could have perhaps chosen my words even more carefully, as I've only just realised it looks like I was suggesting it was vandalism, which isn't exactly what I meant. I actually intended to get over that it looked like vandalism but probably wasn't—and failed dismally! Thanks for the explanation though. I have to admit I was completely baffled trying to work out what you had been intending. Skinsmoke (talk) 12:44, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
No problem, it'll me not to use my iPod when I'm getting out of bed. Bevo74 (talk) 13:29, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Ha! Skinsmoke (talk) 13:51, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

My round[edit]

Guinness.jpg And one for yourself.
Brocach (talk) 20:40, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Sláinte (I presume it's roughly the same in Irish as it is in Scottish Gaelic). Skinsmoke (talk) 20:43, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Sin é. Glad not to be in Embra tonight. Brocach (talk) 20:50, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I take it there's been a rugby match. Skinsmoke (talk) 21:24, 24 February 2013 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Skinsmoke. You have new messages at WT:CP.
Message added 06:50, 26 February 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Darkwind (talk) 06:50, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Moved page renaming discussion to Talk:Pseudotsuga menziesii[edit]

When Mike Cline half-closed the discussion, I asked him on his talk page: what did he mean to do? he wanted me to restart the discussion. So, I put a new discussion up at Talk:Pseudotsuga menziesii, and copied over the species-relevant part of the discussion. I copied your initial comment, but I trimmed the "Opposed" from the beginning, because you were opposed to the genus move, but eventually in favor of the species move instead. If you think I did a poor job of copying your initial comment over, please refactor to your taste: I am very hesitant to edit Talk comments, even dropping the single word made me come here and explain. —hike395 (talk) 17:50, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

That's absolutely fine. Thanks for that. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:55, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Original Barnstar Hires.png The Original Barnstar
thank you Skinsmoke for editing me! my mistake! Evilan123 (talk) 13:25, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
It happens to us all, mate. Skinsmoke (talk) 14:26, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Railway station names[edit]

Thank you for the cleanup you are doing in India. You should be aware that "Station name (City Metro)" is a common naming convention for lots of metro/subway systems, attaching the system name as a suffix rather than "metro station". See Washington, D.C., Paris, Rome, Moscow, Dubai, Delhi and many others. There are other succession, navigation and route diagram templates that relate to these well structured systems and unless you want to amend those to match you should avoid radical changes to them. Again thanks for what you are doing, and I will help where I can. Sw2nd (talk) 13:09, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your message. I haven't touched Delhi metro, as they were all of the same pattern, but the others in India were mixed or followed an unorthodox style (then everything else to do with Indian railway categories seems to be either mixed or follow an unorthodox style—I only got involved in this because a couple of people complained about the mess during a Requested move discussion).
I've had a quick look at the Chennai changes, intending to update the templates, but the links seem to have updated somehow (I can't see that anyone else has done them in the action history). Frankly, I'm a bit baffled, but will try to have another look tomorrow when I'm less knackered and the brain may be functioning a bit better. Skinsmoke (talk) 01:04, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
I've also had a quick look at Category:Delhi Metro stations, and we have a problem. This whole category is a subcategory of Category:Railway stations in Delhi. However, a number of these stations are not in Delhi, and should be categorised as either Category:Railway stations in Haryana or Category:Railway stations in Uttar Pradesh. How big the problem is I'm not sure at this stage, but the similar problems for Mumbai, Chennai and Kolkata were considerable, with stations 50 kilometres away being categorised as within the city. The only solutions appear to be to remove the category from Category:Railway stations in Delhi and categorise the individual stations; or alternatively, remove from Category:Railway stations in Delhi and create three new subcategories of Category:Delhi Metro stations at Category:Delhi Metro stations in Delhi, Category:Delhi Metro stations in Haryana and Category:Delhi Metro stations in Uttar Pradesh. Any thoughts? Skinsmoke (talk) 01:21, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
India is a large densely populated country and I know very little about its political divisions and geography. That means that I would be useless in the task of determining categories. All I can do is try and fix anything technical that you have missed. It always helps to have another eye on things. Oh, but I am so glad you've taken this on, it means that as new articles are created I can ensure they conform, without having to figure out what the convention is. Thanks again. Sw2nd (talk) 19:11, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
I must admit the task is pretty daunting, and how far I get with it I'm not sure, especially as I'm in the process of moving house at the moment. I'll try and pick up the templates as I go along, though if any get missed, they can always be dealt with at the end of the process. Your help on these would be a big help though. On the geography, where states have very few railway station articles, I've left them at the state level, but where there are a number, I'm trying to ensure they are categorised by district (an Indian district is about the same size as a state in the United States). In the Delhi instance I mentioned earlier, it's especially a problem as there are three states involved (and the states are massive, with populations of 100,000,000 in some cases—they are like countries). However, I think I'll leave that till last. I've stated working through Category:Railway stations in India by state, have knocked off the smaller easier ones, and will try and slog on through the larger ones. I'm on Category:Railway stations in Andhra Pradesh at the moment. Skinsmoke (talk) 07:32, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Creating district level categories with one article is in my view is hardly sensible and meaningful. Shyamsunder (talk) 20:01, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
You don't consider it important to get them linked into the higher categories at the district level then, I presume. It also seems to make more sense to treat the whole country in the same way, rather than the present mish-mash. It also means that the article page can be placed in one category (Category:Railway stations in XXX district), rather than two (Category:XXX district and Category:Railway stations in XXX state). Skinsmoke (talk) 20:08, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Category:Railway stations in Andhra Pradesh Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 05:24, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Category:Railway stations in Assam Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 05:24, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Category:Railway stations in Bihar Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 05:24, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Category:Railway stations in Chhattisgarh Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 19:48, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Category:Railway stations in Gujarat Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 04:03, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Category:Railway stations in Haryana Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 11:41, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Category:Railway stations in Himachal Pradesh Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 11:42, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Category:Railway stations in Jammu and Kashmir Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 12:42, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Category:Railway stations in Jharkhand Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 03:49, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
Category:Railway stations in Karnataka Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 12:51, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
Category:Railway stations in Kerala Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 15:47, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
Category:Railway stations in Madhya Pradesh Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 13:31, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Category:Railway stations in Maharashtra Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 03:13, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Category:Railway stations in Odisha Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 16:36, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Category:Railway stations in Rajasthan Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 21:32, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Category:Railway stations in Tamil Nadu Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 02:11, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Category:Railway stations in Uttar Pradesh Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 07:07, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Category:Railway stations in Uttarakhand Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 14:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Just a thought. Perhaps you should post what you are doing in a public space, to inform other editors, and allow them to participate. Portal:Railways in India is inactive, so perhaps the talk page for Indian Railways would be better. Sw2nd (talk) 15:05, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Peace Barnstar Hires.png The Barnstar of Diplomacy
I recieved your message Evilan123 (talk) 00:55, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

A beer for you![edit]

Export hell seidel steiner.png YOU are my hero. MANY thanks for finally standing up and telling people about how a mining community works. I have created coal town as a stub, take a look Coal town guy (talk) 13:47, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Many thanks. To be honest, I think the problem is that the person who mainly wrote the article has had trouble getting his/her mind round the idea that there are mining communities outside the western United States. Here in the United Kingdom, a mining community is primarily a coal mining community, though we do have a few slate quarrying communities, and at least one iron ore mining community. We also have a few lead mining communities and a fair few limestone and chalk quarrying communities, along with at least a couple of ghostly silver and gold mining communities. The whole article needs rewriting from a global perspective (there is one source, I note—about historic mining in Arizona!).
Incidentally, it might be an idea to rename Category:Coal townsCategory:Coal mining communities, which would fit in better with the parent category. Here, many of the coal mining communities are villages, rather than towns (usually referred to as "pit villages" or "colliery villages"), and at present they don't really fit into the category as it is named. If you agree, and need any help going about renaming a category (it can be done in a way that means you don't have to go into each page and change the category), let me know. Skinsmoke (talk) 14:01, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
There has been so much intentional blurring of the definitions, it would be tough, HOWEVER, I am game. In the US, coal towns have become an eyesore, people find them repugnant, and at best, the near equivalent of having a nudist leper beach. Even in government records or surveys, the identical town name, suffixed by the words coal town is shown as extinct, ALTHOUGH the same town name, sans, coal town, is just fine. There are at this time just under 900 articles with the category coal towns. YES, I did indeed stick with US towns because that what I know. When I was very young, I did visit a few places in Wales and at that time Germany had a coal industry....let me know how you wish to proceed. I look forward to learning more about this cultureCoal town guy (talk) 14:20, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Question, do we have articles on pit villages or colliery villages?? It might be of great value to edit the current coal trown article, and provide a global perspective there and then, rename the cat...what do you think??Coal town guy (talk) 14:23, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Can't find specific articles on pit villages or colliery villages as a whole, but there are loads of British pages on individual villages (have a look at some of the village articles in England (in Cheshire, Greater Manchester, Merseyside, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire, County Durham, Northumberland and Warwickshire), Scotland (in North Lanarkshire, South Lanarkshire, Fife, Clackmannanshire, West Lothian and Midlothian) and Wales (in Torfaen, Caerphilly County Borough, Merthyr Tydfil, Rhondda Cynon Taf, Blaenau Gwent, Neath Port Talbot, Bridgend County Borough, Carmarthenshire, Wrexham County Borough and Flintshire). Some good images too at Geograph, which has 3.3 million images of the British Isles. Skinsmoke (talk) 14:49, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Category:Coal mining regions in the United Kingdom is a good entry point to the British mining communities. Skinsmoke (talk) 14:51, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I concur, 100% about your observations and tatgging of this article. I also raised the same concerns, quite a while ago, on the article talk page see here, wow, not a soul has addressed it yet. I would very much enjoy improving the article. Do you have any ideas that should be incorporated before I launch headlong into the effort. While, my user name is Coal town guy, and I have only visited 130+ coal towns in North America, I am somewhat familiar with German and Welsh towns of this type. Its been a while since I was thereCoal town guy (talk) 14:14, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I've made a start, at least, by adding a photo! Not much, but it's a start. I would quite enjoy collaborating with you on this (there must be loads of material out there on coal mining in Europe, Australia and India, uranium mining in Namibia, lead mining in England and Wales, tin mining in Bolivia, copper mining in Chile...the list is endless). As it stands, it's a pretty poor excuse for an article on mining communities, which tend to have a distinct working-class culture which isn't even mentioned. Won't be able to do very much for a few weeks (I'm up to my neck in Indian railways at the moment), but I really am interested, especially as I live in a former mining community myself (the coal mines are a distant memory these days, and most visitors—and probably most residents—don't even know there were collieries in the area). I remember playing on the "pit bonks" (spoil heaps) when I was a kid, under strict instructions not to go anywhere near the ventilation shaft (to be honest, if my mum had caught me on the bonks, she'd have leathered me!). I also just about recall, as a five-year old, accompanying my dad scavenging the bonks for coal in 1962, when the worst winter freeze in living memory brought the country to a standstill, and meant you couldn't get coal deliveries. Skinsmoke (talk) 14:40, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
VERY cool. We called spoil heaps, gobs, I believe the term was Welsh, albeit, I am not 100% certain. The term was used in West Virginia and Kentucky, not certain where else. I grew up in a rather small coal town in the US myself. Whitby, West Virginia. I also started a approved document on coal scrip, which was almost identical to the truck system, but has its own tricks if you will. I understand that you are busy, I am as well with small places in Kentucky and West Virginia. Lets coordinate a time, it would be rather nice to have a category which explains these places in an encyclopedic manner and not the mythology that most beg to imbue on the area. My grandmother would have made my ass glow for days if she caught me near the tipple, which she did....Coal town guy (talk) 15:21, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I believe something similar to coal scrip existed in the Welsh coalfield also (possibly in England and Scotland also). It was massively abused by the colliery owners, and was one of the things that led to the growth of the Labour movement and trade unionism in Wales. I'm hoping to finish the Indian railways stuff in a couple of weeks (but I'm also in the process of moving house), so perhaps make a start towards the back end of March/early April? Skinsmoke (talk) 15:31, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
FANDAMTASTIC, thats a yes......Abuse of such was one of the items for the UMWA here, but in reality, the main driver here was the 8 hour day, I was lucky enough to be near a UMWA grave site, honored for the miner who was killed during one of the many strikes in West Virginia.Coal town guy (talk) 15:35, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Incidentally, have you ever seen the films Kes, Brassed Off or How Green Was My Valley, all of which give an excellent picture of life in the coal minining communities in Britain (the first two in Yorkshire, and the last in Wales)? There must be a fair few more, though I can't think of any immediately, though if you get a chance to see the Sky TV series Stella (currently on its second series in the United Kingdom), it's a comedy drama set in a former mining community in Wales, which captures the feel of the communities today, now that the coal mines have closed. Skinsmoke (talk) 15:54, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
How Green Was My Valley is a favorite.Coal town guy (talk) 16:25, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Take a look at Civil parishes in South Yorkshire, Civil parishes in West Yorkshire, Civil parishes in Greater Manchester, Civil parishes in Merseyside, Civil parishes in Cheshire (also salt mining communities), Civil parishes in Cumbria and Civil parishes in the West Midlands (county), and you should be able to pick out one or two coal mining communities from the images. Civil parishes in Cornwall shows some tin mining and china clay mining communities. Skinsmoke (talk) 18:02, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
pssssst, someone is starting to add a global perspective to coal mining, and the article is not half badCoal town guy (talk) 13:50, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Are we talking about Coal mining here? Skinsmoke (talk) 14:37, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
take a look I think soCoal town guy (talk) 01:34, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Ah, we're talking about History of coal miners. I hadn't seen that. Much better, and it's shaping up into a nice article. Still needs to cover a wider geographical area (France, Belgium, Poland, East Germany (lignite), Australia, India, South America, South Africa, Zimbabwe, China, Russia, Ukraine spring to mind), but it's definitely heading in the right direction. Also needs more citations, but these seem to be getting added. Skinsmoke (talk) 01:43, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

1971 Bangladesh atrocities[edit]

You recently commented on a RM on the article 1971 Bangladesh atrocities. The discussion was closed and the article moved to the previous title by another editor per WP:RM/TR. A new RM has been initiated and can be found here Darkness Shines (talk) 16:26, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar in appreciation[edit]

Original Barnstar Hires.png The Original Barnstar
For your great contribution in uplifting articles related to Indian Railways and Bangladesh Railway. - Chandan Guha (talk) 01:29, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Many thanks. It's been hard work, but I think it's been worth it, and its really nice to see that at least someone appreciates it. I also tackled Pakistan and Sri Lanka while I was at it. Many thanks also for your contribution, which certainly helped when I was flagging a bit! Skinsmoke (talk) 01:33, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Did someone mention, Pit Village????[edit]

I found this take a look its a dam good startCoal town guy (talk) 01:36, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, excellent. There must be quite a few recent publications (last 20 years or so) that have dealt with the decline of once thriving communities, particularly in South Wales, the Central Belt of Scotland, Yorkshire and the East Midlands. These are areas that relied entirely on the mines for their income, and that saw whole communities move from prosperity (the elite of the working class) to abject poverty in the space of five years. The collapse of society, rocketing crime figures and appalling increase in drug addiction (prescribed drugs like tranquilisers, legal drugs like alcohol, and illicit drugs such as heroin) is a fascinating, if depressing, story. Most of the pit villages are still struggling to emerge from the hell into which they were plunged. In the Lancashire coalfield the story was a little different, as the mining communities were close to the large connurbations of Manchester (Greater Manchester) and Liverpool (Merseyside), and so alternative employment was available. Many of the pit villages in that area have been transformed into dormitary communities, with commuters moving into relatively low-cost housing developments, and new job opportunities opening up in places like Wigan, St Helens, Widnes, Leigh, Bolton, Salford and Warrington. I know there are similar stories from the Walloon area of Belgium, when coal mining there collapsed. Skinsmoke (talk) 02:02, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Garth railway station[edit]

Hi, you've made several page moves "per citation" - but what citation? --Redrose64 (talk) 21:04, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, it was an external link and a citation on the first move, but it is actually an external link on the rest, under "station information" from the National Rail website. This shows the heading for Whitchurch railway station, Cardiff as, "Whitchurch (Cardiff) (WHT)", but gives the name and address as "Whitchurch Railway Station". Examination of images used on the articles also clearly shows that the disambiguator "(Cardiff)" is not used on signage at the stations (or, of course, the equivalent "(Caerphilly)", "(Bridgend)" or "(Powys)" for Newbridge railway station, Caerphilly, Garth railway station, Bridgend or Garth railway station, Powys.
I was a little more unsure about Maesteg (Ewenny Road) railway station, and so left it. Using the same logic, and examining the images on the article, this appears a little more confusing. The name and address is shown as "Maesteg Ewenny Road Railway Station", but signage shows "Ewenny Road". Any thoughts? Skinsmoke (talk) 21:27, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
It's certainly a problem when the signs don't agree with the timetables. One factor that has affected the style of article name in the past is the {{s-rail-national}} template, used in certain routeboxes - I think that South Wales is free from this style though. That template expects station names to be of the form "previous railway station" or "next railway station" if only |previous= and |next= are given; but if |county1= or |county2= are present, it expects station names to be of the form "previous (county1) railway station" or "next (county2) railway station", as in this hypothetical case
Preceding station   National Rail National Rail   Following station
Arriva Trains Wales
which is probably why the disambiguators were set up that way previously. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:23, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Provided that a redirect is in place, that doesn't appear to be a problem as far as I can see. Am I missing something? Skinsmoke (talk) 02:48, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Please do not move these pages without discussing them first on the respective talkpages. Brackets are widely used in UK railways when distinguishing one identically-named station from another; I don't see anything in WP:TITLE which gives priority to wikilanguage over what is actually used. The standard practice is to put the locality in brackets on tickets and is reflected on the operator's website. Signage at stations will very often not match as it is assumed that passengers using the station will know where they are. Lamberhurst (talk) 23:15, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
However, that doesn't answer the fact that Network Rail's website does not give the station name in this format under the name and address field, as mentioned above, but merely uses it as a page header (with the station code in brackets). If your argument is that we should use the format used by Network Rail as a page header, then the article would have to be at Garth (Bridgend) (GMG) railway station. Arriva Trains Wales uses three different formats on their website: "Garth (Mid Glamorgan)", "Garth (Bridgend)" and "Garth Railway Station". You appear to be arguing that "Garth (Bridgend) railway station" is the official name, which is not borne out by the evidence. In any case, Wikipedia:Article titles is very clear that we do not use official names to determine article titles, but instead use the common name in English. The parentheses format most certainly is not the common name, as required for article titles, in normal English prose used by reliable sources, and is practically unknown outside the rail companies' websites, where they use it as their style of disambiguation, as determined by their house style. Even then, use is inconsistent within those websites. There is no reason why Wikipedia should abandon its own house style of disambiguation in order to follow one (or another) of the railway companies' preferred styles, particularly when that is not common use outside those companies. The system you are advocating, when extended across British railway articles on Wikipedia, leads to nonsensical examples. A prime example would be Coryton (Cardiff), which is most certainly not how the station would be described either in common use, or by the operator (and it would not be shown on tickets in this format either), as the only station to distinguish it from was Coryton (Devon), which closed many years ago. Skinsmoke (talk) 02:45, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
The privatisation of the UK's railways has resulted in a panoply of different organisations and entities managing and providing train services and stations; gone are the days when a single station name was used uniformly throughout. So what name to use? As per WP:NATURAL, the preference is for an "alternative name that the subject is also commonly called", with commas used in certain particular contexts (geographic, etc). I would suggest that "Garth (Bridgend) railway station" is more appropriate on the basis of "natural name" than what is essentially the made-up wikiname of "Garth railway station, Bridgend". Firstly, in railway literature, it is very common to find stations referred to using the parentheses format. Secondly, train operating companies do generally tend to use the parentheses format, particularly where they have more than one station of the same name within their operating region. Thirdly, the parentheses format has significant historical usage and dates back to the time when many places had multiple stations served by different operators. Re Coryton, I can't see that Coryton railway station, Devon/Cardiff would be better (i.e. more WP:NATURAL) than Coryton (Cardiff) and Coryton (Devon). Lamberhurst (talk) 09:12, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
That's begining to sound suspiciously like Wikipedia:I just don't like it. Skinsmoke (talk) 11:04, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
We do have Wikipedia:Naming conventions (UK stations), by which your move of Gogar station was incorrect, since it's more than one mode. Nowhere is it suggested that the article name should include the three-letter code, otherwise every National Rail station would be trated like that - and they're not. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:50, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, you are right about Gogar. Move now reverted. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:56, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Category Pentir[edit]

Britannia Bridge in, or part of Pentir ? I don't think so and it would certainly surprise the residents of Pentir. Any chance of an explanation? Regards  Velella  Velella Talk   16:56, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Where are you thinking that Pentir is? This is the community in Gwynedd. The bridge runs from Pentir to Llanfairpwllgwyngyll. There appears to be no other Pentir on Wikipedia (mind you, there isn't an article for this one either). If there is likely to be any confusion, it can always be changed to Category:Pentir, Gwynedd. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:25, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
I held my peace to calm down a little. Yes I do know exactly where Pentir is and even who lives there. I am also very familiar with many residents of Cwm Cadnant, for example, many on firts name terms. I suspect that you are not local and have reached the conclusion that Communities in North Wales equate to Parishes in England. There is one common feature, and that is that they are local electoral wards. In North Wales, for many rural areas, that is all that they are. For example, nobody would say that they live in Cwm Cadnant. They might live in Glyn Garth, or Llandegfan or any one of a number of small settlements. Cwm Cadnant, along with most communities here are simply arbitrary political lines on a map designed to coral an appropriate number of people to elect one of more councillors - nothing more. So for Pentir, there is indeed a village of that name which should have a Wikipedia article but nobody would ever relate to that fact that the Pentir electoral ward comes up to Britannia Bridge as supporting the claim that Briatannia Bridge is in Pentir. They might say it was at the end of Penrhosgarnedd or at Parc Menai. Can you find any sources, other than a map of community boundaries that aligns Britannia Bridge with Pentir?  Velella  Velella Talk   13:49, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure why you were getting annoyed at my response. I really wasn't trying to be sarcastic or condescending, but was querying whether you were talking about the place in Gwynedd or some other Pentir somewhere else in Wales, as it wasn't clear from your initial comment. Yes, I do think that communities equate to civil parishes in England, for the simple reason that they do. They are the successors of civil parishes in Wales, and replaced them at the 1974 local government reorganisation, and they have elected community councils, which equate to elected parish councils in England. The community councils have exactly the same powers as parishes councils in England, and levy a council tax precept (which is collected by the county council or county borough council) in exactly the same way as parish councils do in England. To quote from the article at Community council:

Welsh community councils are a direct replacement for earlier parish councils, under the Local Government Act 1972, and are identical to English parish councils in terms of their powers and the way they operate.

Communities do not necessarily equate to local government wards—many wards will include two or more communities, while others cover only part of a community, or part of a community along with other communities—though in some cases they do. Ward boundaries are also subject to review every 10 or 15 years, and are frequently amended, as the requirement for wards (electoral divisions in Gwynedd) is that they should have roughly the same number of electors. The boundaries of communities, on the other hand, are somewhat more stable, as there is no requirement for communities to have similar populations (and populations can vary from a couple of hundred to tens of thousands). The guidelines in establishing communities are that they should have a "community of interest" and should "contribute towards achieving good and efficient local government" (whatever that may mean). In reality, they usually just follow the historic boundaries, with a few minor adjustments to take account of new housing developments, or mergers when the population falls to a level where it is difficult to sustain a community council.
It is a verifiable fact that the southern landfall of the Pont Britannia (as it is now shown on Ordnance Survey maps) is in the community of Pentir. It is also a verifiable fact that anyone living near that southern landfall is eligible to be elected to, or to vote in elections for, Pentir Community Council, pays the Pentir community precept, and is registered in the population of Pentir by the census (the census does not record the population of villages, merely—in Wales—of communities and urban statistical areas). Incidentally, the southern landfall, prior to the 1974 reorganisation, was also in the civil parish of Pentir, and had been ever since Pentir was separated from the civil parish of Bangor in 1894. In fact, the southern landfall of the Menai Suspension Bridge was also in the civil parish of Pentir at that time, and was transferred into the city and municipal borough (and back into the civil parish) of Bangor only in 1934. Skinsmoke (talk) 14:35, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


Thanks for the edits. But I don't understand how the categories have been improved by this! Please educate me.Jrfw51 (talk) 20:11, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree: As you may gather from my comments above, I too believe that recent categorizations have added confusion rather than clarity. There appears to be a lack of awareness of ground truth and a reliance on the view of formal political governance which translates very poorly to the real world.  Velella  Velella Talk   22:06, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
At the moment, Jrfw51, you won't be able to see at Category:Aberdyfi where this is leading, but the aim is to provide a category that groups all pages for the immediate area in one place, so that it is no longer necessary to wade through hundreds of entries on dozens of category pages about Gwynedd to find the items for Aberdyfi. You will get a better idea by having a look at Category:Amlwch or Category:Holyhead, both of which are more or less complete. Skinsmoke (talk) 01:59, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
The deletion of Aberdyfi Castle from Category:Aberdyfi implies that you want define these new Categories only by geographical location (in Gwynedd). I believe this is limiting the use of these new categories too much, and this is adding confusion! You have also reversed my inclusion of Aberdyfi in Seaside resorts in Wales category, which was nothing to do with Gwynedd. The average reader wants to use Categories to "help ... navigate, sort, find related articles and see how information is organised." My preference would be to leave these major categories (Gwynedd, Seaside resorts..) on the main article entry.Jrfw51 (talk) 14:39, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
The problem here is not that Aberdyfi is in Gwynedd, but rather that Aberdyfi Castle isn't in Aberdyfi. It really has nothing to do with the town of Aberdyfi, but merely shares a name with it, being at the mouth of the Afon Dyfi like the town (but on the other bank of the estuary). I had left off placing it in the appropriate community category until I tackled Category:Ceredigion, but to avoid confusion have now included it in Category:Ysgubor-y-Coed, which is the correct community category in the Ceredigion category tree, where it will eventually link with other articles in the same locality. It's a similar situation to Manchester United F.C., which despite its name, is not based in Manchester (as any Manchester City F.C. fan will be only too pleased to tell you!). You will find it categorised as Category:Football clubs in Trafford, but not as Category:Football clubs in Manchester.
The problem of Category:Seaside resorts in Wales has nothing to do with Aberdyfi being in Gwynedd, but is one of overcategorisation. The article at Aberdyfi is already in Category:Aberdyfi, which is a subcategory of Category:Seaside resorts in Wales. As it is in the same category tree, it should not, according to the instructions, be included in the higher category as well. This is explained at Wikipedia:Categorization#Subcategorization, using the example of Paris. If you check Category:Seaside resorts in Wales, you will see that none of the resorts that have a subcategory listed are also listed as pages. Skinsmoke (talk) 16:25, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

On Tripura[edit]

Should we go ahead and put Tripura in FAC?--Dwaipayan (talk) 03:21, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Probably I will be on a wikibreak soon. So, I did take a chance, and started another FAC for Tripura. I sincerely hope I did not offend in doing so. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:03, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Sorry my attention has been elsewhere. I've had a quick look at the article, and it's in much better shape (in fact, my first impression was that it looks rather good). I have no doubt some points will be picked up at FAC, but I can't see that they should be insurmountable. Good luck with it, and I'm only sorry that I allowed myself to get distracted. You've done a brilliant job. Skinsmoke (talk) 16:30, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
I added some sentences on the crime scenario in Tripura. Can you please have a look at the prose?--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:21, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Couple of very minor tweaks, but they are fine. Skinsmoke (talk) 19:27, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Ok, thanks!--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:43, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Butlins Pwllhelli[edit]

Given that this was the subject of a RM to its current position in the not to distant past, I'd have appreciated a discussion over the move to the new name rather than a Bold Move. The way I see it judging by the sources returned by google books Butlins Pwllheli was a notable holiday camp part of the Butlins chain whilst Hafan y Môr is a run of the mill caravan park that is part of the Haven chain. It could do with a larger RFC both for this and for Butlins Ayr as to how best to proceed in regards naming, logos, etc... Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 11:55, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I hadn't looked at the Talk page, so hadn't seen the Requested move discussion. If I had realised it was likely to be controversial, I would have gone through the Requested move process. Having said that, it didn't exactly attract a great deal of participation, did it? The problem here is that the camp continued in existence, admittedly in dramatically altered form. In such circumstances, we normally use the current name provided that is how it is now commonly referred to, and cover earlier uses (when it may have been more famous), as part of its history. If the article becomes quite large, then it may be appropriate to split off the history into a separate article under the old name. I doubt that there is sufficient on the article at present to justify two articles (though I would have thought that was quite possible, given its history), so it should normally go under the current name. After all, nobody today would say "I've just booked a week at Butlins Pwllheli", though they may say "I've just booked a week at Hafan y Môr. You know it's the old Butlins camp?" The redirect, of course, is in place, so anyone searching for "Butlins Pwllheli" will get to the article.
You would be quite entitled to revert the move under the Bold-Revert-Discuss procedure, and we could then go through the Requested move process. The problem you are likely to encounter though is that, in determining the common name, only sources since the change of name would be likely to be considered. An Advanced Google search in English over the last year for Hafan y Môr excluding Wikipedia, Butlin, Butlins and Llandudno (to leave out a guest house in that town) gives 3,900 hits (453 unduplicated hits). A similar search for Butlin or Butlins plus Pwllheli excluding Wikipedia and Hafan y Môr gives 1,740 hits (417 unduplicated hits), all of which, not surprisingly, appear to refer to the camp in the period before it changed hands.
Incidentally, many of the hits for Hafan y Môr are for music events that take place at the camp, particularly heavy metal festivals. Perhaps this is worth mentioning in the article? Skinsmoke (talk) 12:26, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
The RM at the talkpage is subsidiary to the much larger one at Talk:Butlins Minehead at roughly the same time which took in discussions on which camps to keep apostrophes for how to deal with Haven Camps but ultimately failed to achieve much for anything other than Minehead (though all articles were renamed along the lines of that discussion.)
while in some cases the current name is the best way to approach the problem there are some cases where either both names are retained or only the older name is retained in the Minehead discussion I identified the articles on the TSB (1810-1995), Lloyds TSB, and now TSB (2013-) essentially the same company through three stages of it's lifespan as three separate articles. In this case I see the current name as of little more than a footnote and most people looking for an encyclopaedic article will be looking for its historical era - There is very little secondary sourcing on its current state to justify the article being what people would be expecting information on. If Hafan y Môr gathers enough secondary sources about it to create a full article then it could be spun out, it is a different company operating on the same site, and operating in a different manner not just a different name for the existing site.
As for Google hits, you might as well ignore them - there's massive numbers of hits generated by travel agents, review sites, forums, and Haven themselves that are useless in helping us create an article on the subject, newspaper searches do the same - the hits currently being returned are of more use to the people you are renaming the article to help than our article is ever likely to be.
I'll not revert just now, but I think further discussion is warranted with a decision to revert back or keep the current name as possible outcomes. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 16:25, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
I've had another think about this one, and am coming round to the idea that the article should be split. The article at Butlin's Pwllheli could deal with the camp's history up to 1999, with a brief mention that it subsequently passed to Haven Holidays and was rebranded Hafan y Môr. The article at Hafan y Môr would probably be little more than a stub, dealing with the site after the change, and briefly mentioning that it enjoyed a previous life as Butlin's Pwllheli. Although an unusual soution, it would probably work better, and there is precedent for a similar stub for another Haven park at Primrose Valley. How does that sound? Skinsmoke (talk) 18:18, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
I'd agree to that and Primrose Valley is actually a good example of why this approach makes sense. The camp there is built on the edge of the former Butlin's camp of Filey but Filey wasn't modernised unlike Pwllheli so the decision was to sell off much of it to developers instead finally leading to the demolition of all Butlin's features. The end result is that Primrose Valley is more disconnected from Butlin's that Pwllheli, even though Pwllheli's only real connection is retention of the structures. For the sake of the history the best approach is probably to move back, copy/paste Hafan y Mor paragraph with comment pointing to Butlins article to preserve history, then copyedit Butlins to convert to past tense. I don't know when I'll get a chance but if you want to proceed feel free. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 21:28, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
I'll see what I can do later today. Skinsmoke (talk) 01:50, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

forts in wales with single member categories[edit]

The addition of separate categories for each region on Wales leaves far too many with tiny numbers of members. Only Pembrokshire has a decent number

This is a bad idea Vicarage (talk) 07:20, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I take it that patience isn't a virtue that you are particularly renowned for. A further 42 pages were added to these categories today. In addition, each of these is now linked in to the appropriate category tree for its county, which was most certainly not the case previously. In the course of this, it was also discovered that Category:Hill forts in Wales had never been made a subcategory of Category:Forts in Wales, and so none of those 42 pages were included in the category. It was also discovered that a number had been miscategorised as being in England. Before commenting, I find it is usually worthwhile to wait a short while and see what's happening, before rushing to judgment. Alternatively, you could, of course, help with populating the categories, rather than sitting there whingeing. If you come across any other forts in Wales, please feel free to add them to the appropriate category. Skinsmoke (talk) 14:14, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
unhelpful. Won't engage with someone with that tone Vicarage (talk) 05:09, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
An invitation to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history#Forts in Wales over categorization seems appropriate here, given the unsavoury response handed out above. Per my comments in the discussion, "it is very over-categorised due to the fact that when creating new small categories it should first be considered whether the category will expand over time. In the case of historical forts and castles, the answer is clearly that this is not going to be the case" – it would be better for you to come to Military History and justify the need for these sub-categories and the chances of them ever exceeding more than 2 or 3 forts for the majority of Welsh counties. If not, then Vicarage is indeed correct in his concerns. This is not "whingeing [sic]" but a genuine good faith concern that should be addressed in relation to Wiki guideline: WP:Overcategorization#Small with no potential for growth, please see for yourself before dishing out unfair retorts or personal attacks. I won't be monitoring your talk page for a reply here, all comments on the matter should be given at the link provided, as it would appear this set of categories requires a collaborative discussion and resolution. Cheers, Ma®©usBritish{chat} 19:42, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Replied at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history#Forts in Wales over categorization. Skinsmoke (talk) 20:03, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

A pie for you![edit]

A very beautiful Nectarine Pie.jpg I keep turning around and finding that an article has improved and its says "Skinsmoke" after it. I was going to offer you a beer but they only have lager and then I thought a Mancunian will like "Pie" but then the example they give is apple or cherry. We need deep fried black pudding (with a brown ale dip coolee) as a potential offering IMO. Anyway veggie or not .... thanks for your work. Victuallers (talk) 14:06, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Wow! Thanks for that. Must admit I love cherry pie, though when I'm being faithful to my roots it's got to be wimberry pie (we're not quite Mancunians, us Stopfordians). Prefer my black pudding shallow fried (or grilled), with a good dollop of English mustard: along with Cheshire oatcakes, bacon, sausage, fried egg, tomatoes, mushrooms and baked beans, it's an essential part of a Stockport breakfast! Having an open mind (and being well-travelled), I also like a bit of Arran Relish with it, instead of the traditional brown sauce.
As a matter of interest (just so I can have an idea of what I'm doing right for a change), what sort of thing was it that you noticed? Skinsmoke (talk) 14:20, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
I prefer Brappy (fried apple pies for poor folks like myself).......but well deservedCoal town guy (talk) 16:25, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Is that a bit like those Scottish delicacies deep fried Mars bars and deep-fried pizzas? Skinsmoke (talk) 16:36, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
As a 30 something Scottish Guy, I can honestly say I've never had a Deep Fried Mars Bar. That said Deep Fried Pizza was a childhood delicacy (Though oddly I didn't become overweight until after I gave up the fried Pizza in my mid teens - I blame it on Mexican food) Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 16:55, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
The deep fried snickers bar is a delicacy, however, they are more akin to a turnover with cornbreadCoal town guy (talk) 17:00, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
It's never too late, Stuart. Two of our friends up in Kinlochewe, who were born in Scotland, tried the Mars bar for the first time recently. They reported they were unexpectedly delicious, especially served with ice cream. Our local chippy delicacy here in Greater Manchester is the baby's head, a suet pudding filled with minced steak. I've often wondered how the Scots would go about deep frying one of those. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:24, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
I would't rule it out (and don't see it as much worse than a McDonalds deep fried Apple Pie) but with a wife who is a medical professional I would never hear the end of it if I did. As for the suet pudding, it's more common to find a deep fried Puff Pastry Steak pie in Scotland or Scotch Pie. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 17:40, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Psst! Don't tell the wife! Skinsmoke (talk) 17:41, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Maybe self-proclaimed naming and advocacy?[edit]

Help please! We're in a bit of a pickle here and here. Thank uou for your brief attention. --Septimus Wilkinson (talk) 00:09, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


Hi Skinsmoke, you seem to be creating several new categories but some of them will have no chance of having more than one item of content. I've nominated Category:Estuaries of Cardiff and Category:Bays of Cardiff for deletion. Sionk (talk) 00:13, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your note. The categories were created in accordance with the guidelines at Category:Wales, which states that "Wikipedia's articles about Wales are allocated by location in the counties and county boroughs of Wales category," and formed part of moving the categories down to that level from Category:Estuaries of Wales and Category:Bays of Wales. I suppose the two items could go into Category:Geography of Cardiff, but in that case Cardiff Bay would not link into Category:Bays of Wales or Category:Bays of the United Kingdom, or even into Category:Bays (as it didn't until today). It should also link into Category:Coast of Wales, Category:Coasts of the United Kingdom and Category:Coasts (which it didn't), and into Category:Bodies of water of Wales, Category:Bodies of water of the United Kingdom and Category:Bodies of water (which again it didn't). If the category is removed, the article will need to be placed into Category:Bays of Wales, Category:Coast of Wales and Category:Bodies of water of Wales to ensure that it still links through to the global categories. Severn Estuary would still link in from the other counties. Skinsmoke (talk) 00:27, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Have a good read of Wikipedia:Category clutter before you go any further. Sionk (talk) 10:46, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
I have, and this is most definitely not covered by that. Check it out. Specifically:

Avoid categories that, by their very definition, will never have more than a few members, unless such categories are part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme, such as subdividing songs in Category:Songs by artist or flags in Category:Flags by country.

As explained earlier, these categories are part of a large overall sub-categorisation scheme for Category:Wales. Skinsmoke (talk) 10:51, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
I've raised the issue at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Wales#Overcategorisation. I can't see any agreement anywhere to sub-categorise to such a minute level. Sionk (talk) 11:09, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Fair enough. Skinsmoke (talk) 11:13, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I'd be grateful if you could stop it until the issue is resolved. There hasn't been any agreement for excessive categorisation and I can't see any agreement likely to form. Your edits are becoming disruptive because they will take a considerable amount to undo if they are reversed. Sionk (talk) 00:15, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't think I have actually created any new categories since you listed the matter for discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Wales, with the exception of Rivers of XXX County/County borough, which I don't think should be too controversial. I have instead concentrated on interlinking categories, linking the existing categories through to their associated category trees, following the United Kingdom and global trees (though missing out some of the more obscure links that seem to lead into the realms of intricate scientific obscurity). However, I can easily hold off on that also if you wish, while this is resolved. It seems a little early to say whether any agreement is likely to form, considering there is so far only one other contribution to the discussion besides you and me. Skinsmoke (talk) 00:33, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

You are over categorising in multiple parts of Wikipedia. Vicarage (talk) 10:05, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Rearranging the last section against WP:FOOTERS[edit]

Hi, re this, this and similar edits: please don't change the order of footers if the previous order satisfied WP:FOOTERS but the new order does not. Specifically, navboxes like {{Anglesey}} and {{Conwy Valley}} should go before the categories. Thanks. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:38, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that. That was my previous understanding, but I noted that bots are now placing them after the categories, and presumed this was the new preferred format. Maybe I got confused, and it was only the stubs they were placing last (though I had always been told the stub came before the template). In any case, thanks for the definitive link to the appropriate Manual of Style page: I had looked for it, and missed it. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:41, 7 April 2013 (UTC)


Category:Aberwheeler, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Oculi (talk) 13:54, 8 April 2013 (UTC)


Category:Betws-y-Coed, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Oculi (talk) 17:59, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Category:Places in the United Kingdom[edit]

Category:Places in the United Kingdom, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Oculi (talk) 18:05, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Category:Coal mining in Cardiff[edit]

Category:Coal mining in Cardiff and Category:Coal mining in the Vale of Glamorgan, which you created, have been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Sionk (talk) 21:31, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Category:Coal mining in Anglesey[edit]

Category:Coal mining in Anglesey and thirteen others, which you created, have been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Sionk (talk) 22:39, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Creating new categories[edit]

Hi Skinsmoke

As you can see from the notifications above, many of the categories which you have created have now been nominated for deletion.

I am sure that you created all those categories in good faith. However, so far the discussions seem to be heading towards deleting or upmerging many of them. AFAICS, none of these discussions has yet been closed, and I don't want to prejudge the outcome ... but there is at least a possibility that they might be deleted.

It's not a good use of anyone's time to create categories which will be deleted. It takes a lot of the time of creator's time, and also of those who join the deletion discussions ... and we all end up back where we started.

If an editor repeatedly create categories which get deleted, it can be regarded as disruptive and tendentious, and can eventually lead to sanctions on that editor.

I'm sure that you have no intention of being disruptive ... so please may I suggest that you refrain from creating any more categories until the closure of the current CFD discussions on your creations?

If there is a consensus to keep them, then you will know that it is likely to be acceptable to create further such categories. And if there is a consensus to delete them, then you'll know not to create any more like that. Either way, a little bit of a break from such creations will allow the consensus to emerge, and clarify things for everybody.

Thanks! --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:00, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

I think, if you check, you'll find that I haven't created any categories since before the first was nominated for deletion. The last I created was at 10:48 on 8 April 2013, and the first nomination for deletion was at 13:54 that day, some three hours later. Skinsmoke (talk) 08:18, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
That's great. I should really have checked your contribs before posting, and saved some typing. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:27, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Two editors raised serious concerns here on 1 and 2 April. The first of your categories were nominated for CfD early on 6 April. But if you've stopped for now, that can only be a good thing. Sionk (talk) 09:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
I can find nothing at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 April 6. The earliest I can find is at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 April 7. And I was supposed to know about the 7 April nomination how? This is the first time I have been made aware of it, as nobody had the courtesy to advise me. You advised me that you had raised the matter at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wales, where I responded. Skinsmoke (talk) 14:20, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
For some reason it's dated 6 April but in Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 April 5. I told you about this on 6 April. Sionk (talk) 14:36, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for that. If you check User talk:Skinsmoke#Overcategorisation above, I stopped creating such categories at that time. You subsequently raised a further issue, and again I agreed to stop interlinking category trees. The only categories I think I have created since then have been for communities, which seemed to be safe ground as a precedent had been established at the Speedy renaming decision on Category:Aber, Gwynedd, and which didn't appear to be an issue until Category:Aberwheeler, Category:Waen and Category:Betws-y-Coed were nominated for deletion. Skinsmoke (talk) 15:00, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Requests for Comment: Proposal for rewording WP:NSONG[edit]

Hi, an RfC has begun which proposes rewording WP:NSONG. As you participated in a related discussion, I invite you to join the RfC conversation. Regards,  Gong show 04:56, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

For Fairy Queen[edit]

X-Dominion for India.png The Indian Railways Award
The article on Fairy Queen was a delight to read. The discussion on making it a GA, even more so. :-) Ashwin147 (talk) 06:44, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for that. It means a lot, as by the end of the process I had vowed never to do anything similar again. I was starting to wonder if the aim of some people was ensuring that nothing ever made it to good article status! Fortunately, the reviewer was a lot more accommodating and helpful, and the actual review process was a real pleasure. Don't suppose you know of anyone who has an image we can use, do you? Skinsmoke (talk) 07:01, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for April 15[edit]

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Llangwm, Conwy, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Bala (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 09:27, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Skinsmoke (talk) 09:30, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

help needed[edit]

Trophy.png help needed
i need help making my own user page u misht know me from the edit of odisha Evilan123 (talk) 21:11, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
What's the problem? I'll see what I can do to help. Skinsmoke (talk) 03:02, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Main Page appearance: Tripura[edit]

This is a note to let the main editors of Tripura know that the article will be appearing as today's featured article on May 21, 2013. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. If you prefer that the article appear as TFA on a different date, or not at all, please ask featured article director Raul654 (talk · contribs) or one of his delegates (Dabomb87 (talk · contribs), Gimmetoo (talk · contribs), and Bencherlite (talk · contribs)), or start a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article/requests. You can view the TFA blurb at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/May 21, 2013. If it needs tweaking, or if it needs rewording to match improvements to the article between now and its main page appearance, please edit it, following the instructions at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/instructions. The blurb as it stands now is below:

Tripuri children preparing for a dance performance

Tripura is the third-smallest state in India, bordered by the states of Assam and Mizoram and by Bangladesh. The Kokborok-speaking Tripuri people (children pictured) are the major group among 19 tribes and many subtribes; Bengali people form the ethno-linguistic majority. Before becoming part of the newly independent India in 1949, the area was ruled for several centuries by the Tripuri dynasty. Ethnic strife between the indigenous people and Bengalis has been eased by the establishment of an autonomous tribal administrative agency and other strategies. Five mountain ranges run north to south; Agartala, the capital, is located on a plain to the west. Forests cover more than half of the area, in which bamboo and cane tracts are common. Tripura, which has a tropical savanna climate, has the highest number of primate species found in any Indian state. Economic progress is hindered by its geographical isolation – only one major highway connects it with the rest of India. Most residents are involved in agriculture and allied activities. Mainstream Indian cultural elements, especially from Bengali culture, coexist with traditional practices of the ethnic groups. (Full article...)

UcuchaBot (talk) 23:01, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your immense help. It was a great experience. I did not, bye the way, put it up for TFA; someone else did. Anyway, I don't mind :)--Dwaipayan (talk) 16:58, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, not been here much the last couple of months as was moving house, so only just seen this. You should be really proud. It's a great article, and I really enjoyed the little bit I did. Skinsmoke (talk) 18:50, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
Again, thanks a ton for your help. I remember you were saying that you had interest to improve the article Sikkim. What do you think about it?--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:46, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
Would love to, but will have to be much later in the year. Following the house move, the place is full of boxes and can barely move. Really need to concentrate on getting things sorted before I can commit to anything, otherwise my other half is going to kill me! Skinsmoke (talk) 04:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Discussion of article title of Whitebark pine[edit]

You are welcome to join the discussion at Talk:Whitebark pine#Requested move to scientific name. —hike395 (talk) 04:26, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Skinsmoke. You have new messages at Ezhiki's talk page.
Message added —Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); October 1, 2013; 14:05 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.


Curious to know the origin of your interest in Vayudoot. A former or present aviator? I see a mention of Pondicherry. Passinginterest (talk) 23:20, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Neither. I was simply one of several people updating wikilinks for the union territory from "pages that link here" at Puducherry. Skinsmoke (talk) 05:28, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Editors Barnstar Hires.png The Editor's Barnstar
For taking on the overflowing John Dalli article was and slimming it down considerably. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 04:24, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for that. I actually stumbled across the article because I was wondering who John Dalli was, having seen him mentioned in a post on Facebook (about the fluoridation of water in Ireland). I was appalled by what I came across! I got so far tagging problems then realised the problem was much worse than expected, so was grateful for the help that arrived. Skinsmoke (talk) 05:01, 16 November 2013 (UTC)


I agree that some of the climate info was a bit confusing and not well written but you're wrong if you think the whole article is problematic and shouldn't be a GA. I've removed some of the sentences. Please work with me to try to improve it rather than take to GAR which is counterproductive. Remember that we're all volunteers here, you wouldn't like it if I turned up on the Aberdaron (an article which I helped you out with a while back) talk page picking holes in it would you? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:24, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

To be honest, I would gladly have had a go at a major copy editing exercise in normal circumstances (the standard of English is pretty poor in some sections, there are numerous examples of peacock words, distance conversion is hit and miss, citations are missing), as I did with John Dalli recently, but I just don't have the time at the moment, having moved house. The house is a tip, and if I devote too much time to Wikipedia before it's sorted, my partner is going to kill me! I noted it for GAR, not in the hope that it would have "good article" status removed, but that someone with a bit of time available would be able to knock it into shape. Skinsmoke (talk) 13:43, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
In some sections yes. A large part of it is because it was written by several editors and one of the editors who wrote the content which you were concerned with typically only cited information at the end of the paragraph. I agree that individual sentences should be sourced if they cite facts and if I'd written the whole thing myself you'd not see that. But it's not as if it is really poorly sourced, the number of sources used is comparable to FAs on major subjects like Nostradamus for instance. It is possible that we overlooked quality in parts, but Ipigott and Rosie and myself did read it through and didn't see anything of major concern. If you look about the web you'll see it is by far the most comprehensive source about the city. It can be polished a bit and improved without taking to GAR, Reviewers at GAR wouldn't typically edit it, it would be up to us, I'm not sure why you think that was a productive thing to do.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:08, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, I still hadn't realised you had a hand in the article. If I had, I might well have just messaged you and asked you to have a look at it. GAR seemed to be the suggested way to get the article brought up to standard. I'd never actually heard of GAR previously, so am unaware of its workings. As I explained, I didn't have the time to do anything on the article myself, but had stumbled across it while checking a news story on the fighting in the Central African Republic, for information on one of the locations mentioned. I particularly looked at the geography section, and thought it was confused, repetitive and poorly written. I was then surprised to see it had good article status, and wondered how that section had got through the process. I commented on the talk page about the apparent anomaly on wind speeds, but then thought there's too much to go into here, it needs someone to have a proper look at it. It did suggest in the instructions that, if other editors at GAR didn't agree, it would simply be unlisted, so there didn't seem to be any harm. Sorry if I chose the wrong way to do that. Skinsmoke (talk) 02:44, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

No worries, emailed.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:52, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Bangui has been improved. I'll give it a read tomorrow ust to be sure. If you still see any problems let me know but I don't think the call for a GAR is still warranted.♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:11, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I've had a very quick look over the article, and it looks like a substantial improvement. I have happily removed the GAR tag, as I agree with you that it is no longer warranted. Just one suggestion: would the map of the city's quartiers be more appropriate under the "Administration" section? Skinsmoke (talk) 11:25, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Agreed, somebody added it to the history from German wikipedia, I didn't place it there. Mogadishu next looks like one which has the potential to become a GA but it needs a fair bit of reinforcement and improvement...♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:30, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

There's a pattern developing here, lol. Where after Mogadishu? Juba? Aleppo? Grozny? I shall be watching closely to see where the next major city tipped to descend into chaos is going to be, lol. Skinsmoke (talk) 15:16, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject Eurovision Invitation![edit]

You are cordially invited to join WikiProject Eurovision!
Wiki Eurovision Heart.svg You appear to be someone that may be interested in joining WikiProject Eurovision. Please accept this formal invitation from a current member of the project.

We offer a place for you to connect with users who also like Eurovision and facilitate team work in the development of Eurovision articles.

If you decide to join the project, please add your name to this list, and add the project talk page to your watchlist.
I hope you accept! - Wes Mᴥuse 02:14, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

A cup of coffee for you![edit]

A small cup of coffee.JPG Hello! Nice to meet you . Can we be friends ? :)

I just see your contributions and impressed with that. Your level of intelligence and analysis power. Keep sharing your knowledge Jnanaranjan Sahu (ଜ୍ଞାନ) talk 13:28, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Er...thank you very much :-) I've replied through Facebook. Skinsmoke (talk) 02:37, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

1RR Restricted Reverts[edit]

You just broke the 1RR restriction on Syria Civil War articles by reverting my edits, and your changes break the common name guidelines. They also conflict with the title of the Siege article. Legacypac (talk) 17:14, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Apologies, I hadn't even noticed there was a 1RR restriction. I still think the solution however, is to try to get the article moved at Wikipedia:Requested moves, where I would support such a move as it is under Kurdish administration at present. However, you may find that such a move is controversial. It is absolutely nonsense to have the name not agreeing with the article title. The common name guidelines refer to article titles, not to use within an article, which per the Manual of Style should always agree with the article title. I would suggest that you also include Siege of Kobane, Syria in any requested move, as it clearly makes no sense whatever to have the town under one name and the siege of the town under another (the spelling should also agree with Kobanê Canton). When you moved that article, given that any name change was likely to be controversial, you should really have used the requested move process rather than trying to do it yourself (especially given the mess you found yourself in). I know it can be a pain, but it at least ensures there is a reliable consensus. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:18, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
I have made the request with a template on Kobane and another one was placed on Siege of Kobane by another editor. Hopefully that works and I appreciate your cooperation. Legacypac (talk) 18:02, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
Just dashing out. Will have a look later tonight. Thanks. Skinsmoke (talk) 18:13, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
I am not sure either of those falls under the classification of uncontroversial moves, and should not therefore be dealt with under the "speedy deletion" process. Arabs (and their sympathisers) will surely claim that Ayn al-Arab is the common name, and that Kobane is merely the Kurdish name. Kurds (and their supporters) will claim the opposite. The town is at present under Kurdish administration, but may not be in a couple of weeks time. If it is siezed by the Islamic State (which is not a foregone conclusion given that the Turks and Kurds are currently, for once, on the same side), the name would almost certainly revert to Ayn al-Arab. For that reason I think all three of these (the town, the canton and the siege) should go through the Wikimedia:Requested moves process, which can also determine which Kurdish spelling (Kobane, Kobanê or Kobani) is appropriate (personally, I'd prefer a move to Kobanê). Whatever the requested moves process determines is far more likely to be stable and avert edit wars. Skinsmoke (talk) 23:29, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
On the term "Islamic State" there is far from consensus on using that term. See from this section down especially. Feel free to chime in.
I noticed that afterwards, to be honest. Although looking back through the discussions (which seem endless), the main dispute was how to disambiguate Islamic State from Islamic state. I know there is also some discussion on whether "Islamic State" gives Islam a bad name, but that really is not a matter of concern for Wikipedia. Our naming conventions, and policy on titles generally, specifically excludes considering whether the term upsets Muslims, just as we refer to the Nazis as National Socialists, even though that term upsets Socialists. It is our policy to report on what is, not on what should be, otherwise we would be referring to them as the Evil Butchering Psychopathic State. We are specifically prohibited from engaging in "Newspeak" by our rules and policies. Skinsmoke (talk) 06:57, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Tierra del Fuego[edit]

I noticed you've been working on Tierra del Fuego, so I thought I'd ask you what you thought of the latest edits by an IP editor. Although I don't see what it was so important to re-order the list of people to put Argentinians first, I can go along with it, but deleting Selknam people from the list entirely because the people are "extinct or almost extinct" seems ridiculous to me. Even if there are still five Selknam people there, they ought to be on the list, don't you think? CorinneSD (talk) 19:35, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. The ordering by population size makes sense. The IP editor may have a point about pure-blood indigenous inhabitants, but there appear to be considerably more people who are of mixed heritage, and who identify with indigenous heritage, particularly on the Chilean side of the border where the Argentinians' genocidal behaviour wasn't followed so enthusiastically. Have partly reverted the edit. Skinsmoke (talk) 07:35, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Good. Thanks. CorinneSD (talk) 14:38, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Troia (Final Fantasy IV) listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]


An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Troia (Final Fantasy IV). Since you had some involvement with the Troia (Final Fantasy IV) redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Steel1943 (talk) 04:30, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Have commented at redirect discussion. Skinsmoke (talk) 06:28, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Sexually transmitted disease#Requested move (2014)[edit]

You participated in previous related discussion. There is an ongoing move discussion, and I invite you to comment there. --George Ho (talk) 03:22, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Category:Slope landforms of Wales[edit]

Category:Slope landforms of Wales, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. DexDor (talk) 13:25, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Similarly Category:Aeolian landforms of the United Kingdom and its category tree has been nominated for deletion and upmerge. Sionk (talk) 14:45, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


Hi, I've noticed several edits like this: which part of the Manual of Style does that relate to? --Redrose64 (talk) 12:36, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

I honestly don't know. I was sure I had come across it previously, but searching the Manual of Style I find that I am completely wrong. The relevant section is Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Numbers under the subsection "Uncertainty and rounding", which specifically advises to use Template:Circa. It could be that the Manual of Style has changed (it did during 2014), but even then I am unable to find anything relevant, so I just have to accept that I must have dreamt this one up. Apologies! Skinsmoke (talk) 15:51, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
I don't see it under MOS:DATE#Uncertainty and rounding - which seems to be about numbers, not dates; but MOS:DATE#Uncertain, incomplete, or approximate dates mentions the {{circa}} template in its first bullet. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:27, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
I think I'll just give up and go back to bed! Obviously not having a good day. You are correct, of course. Skinsmoke (talk) 16:33, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Oriya_language#Requested_move_17_June_2015[edit]

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Oriya_language#Requested_move_17_June_2015. Thanks. Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 15:39, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi, does the WP:ENGVAR policy that was employed during the Orissa to Odisha move also apply to the Oriya to Odiya move? The document appears to have changed since then. Please advise. Thanks. --Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 14:16, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Never mind :) --Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 15:38, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
I would say yes, it still applies. perhaps more so, because the new text explicitly recognises Indian English as a distinct form, something which was doubted by some contributors previously (can't have the "natives" developing their own form of English, can we?) Skinsmoke (talk) 20:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
 :) I should have used this tack right from the beginning. But I'll file it away for the future. (I'm sure it'll come in handy in a few years when we get around to renaming places like Gulbarga (City of Flowers) which is now officially known as Kalaburagi (~City of Stones).)--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 22:06, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Strange isn't it, how difficult it is when the place is in India, or somewhere else in the third world? It's interesting to contrast this with Staines-upon-Thames, which went through "on the nod". Skinsmoke (talk) 07:14, 29 June 2015 (UTC)


Please consider (automated) archiving of your talk page. It's gotten really huge! --Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 14:18, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

I try to archive every year, but it is some time since I last did so (four years by the look of it). Will try to find time to work out again how to do it! Skinsmoke (talk) 20:56, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
I think you just need to add this oslt :) --Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 21:12, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Will have a look at it over the next week. Skinsmoke (talk) 06:42, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Tunisian Arabic[edit]

Dear User,

As you are one of the contributors to Tunisian Arabic. You are kindly asked to review the part about Domains of Use and adjust it directly or through comments in the talk page of Tunisian Arabic.

Yours Sincerely,

--Csisc (talk) 13:41, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open![edit]

You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:42, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Numbers with four digits.[edit]

Please be aware of the following from the MoS. "Numbers with exactly four digits left of the decimal point may optionally be grouped (either 1,250 or 1250), provided that this is consistent within each article." Cheers. Dger (talk) 01:38, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Category:Hunting lodges in Scotland has been nominated for discussion[edit]

Category:Hunting lodges in Scotland, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to see if it abides with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. AusLondonder (talk) 21:18, 22 February 2016 (UTC)


If you want to, take a look at the article about Molly Sandén. Any improvements are welcomed :)--BabbaQ (talk) 22:55, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi thanks for that. I'm not sure whether you wanted me to look at anything in particular, but it seems fine to me. I've heard of her, but she's not an artist I'm particularly familiar with. Skinsmoke (talk) 02:21, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Gerardus Mercator[edit]

I've undone the first of your recent edits since no-one claims that Mercator was Dutch and the spelling Gerard Mercator is certainly not Dutch. The many variants of his name and the problem of his nationality are discussed in the main text and clarification within the lead itself would disturb the balance. I'm still working on this article and your suggestions would be welcome. Peter Mercator (talk) 10:25, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

You are correct that nobody claims that Mercator was Dutch, however he is acknowleged to have been born (even by the overwhelming number of German sources) in Flanders, which was (and still is) Dutch speaking. Your comment that the spelling Gerard Mercator is certainly not Dutch is a strange one, given that Dutch Wikipedia choses to host their article under that name. I have to admit that I did wonder about whether to include Gerhard Mercator as the German name in addition, but thought that perhaps the concept that he was conceived in German territory was taking things a little too far: perhaps not, in view of the conflicting claims over his nationality. Either way, the alternative language forms should be shown in addition to the Latinised form as per the Manual of Style, as these are the names by which he tends to be known in those countries today. It is worth noting that even the British Broadcasting Corporation and Open University television series Coast referred to their piece on Mercator under the Dutch version of the name.
I may be missing the fact that The many variants of his name and the problem of his nationality are discussed in the main text and clarification within the lead itself would disturb the balance, but while I can see the discussion of his alleged nationality, and his birth name, I fail to see any mention of the name used in either German or Dutch/Flemish these days. Skinsmoke (talk) 12:26, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

The only certain name and spelling are those in Latin given by Gerardus Mercator himself. Modern texts over the last 100 years give his first name as Gérard (French), Gerhard (German), Gerard (Dutch) whilst in English one finds both Gerard (usual) and Gerardus (rare). The BBC was following the crowd, not the Dutch. Do we have to change the title of the en:wiki to Gerard? Do we have to add four tags. (The French version is important since many Belgian scholars use it.) Should we use a Flemish tag with his pre-latin baptismal name, which may have been Geert de Cremer. On the other hand his first tongue was probably German (for 6 years in Gangelt), not Flemish, so should it be Gerhard de Kremer? I really don't want to get involved in these matters at the beginning of the lead, or in a long discussion here. If you feel strongly on this matter please feel free to reinstate your edit in some form, preferably not singling out the Dutch version. As I said this article is still a work in progress and I'll address the problem at some stage, but this is footnote material. Peter Mercator (talk) 20:55, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't think anyone has even suggested changing the title of the English Wikipedia article, have they? I really don't think this is an issue for a major dispute, and the Manual of Style provides a solution where the number of possible language variations is becoming too complicated for the opening sentence, which is to include a section specifically addressing the various names used in the past and in the present day. The basis for that is already present in the article, and needs very little expansion on. If you feel this is a possible solution, I am more than happy to let you address that in due course, when you get round to it. Skinsmoke (talk) 01:09, 5 August 2016 (UTC)


Hello Skinsmoke, i wanted to expand the article with text from dewiki, but the graphic with the stations and kilometers disappeared, although i reverted my edits with undo. Maybe you can help. Thanks.--Buchbibliothek (talk) 17:50, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

I can't see any problem here. The station line graphic is still showing on my version after every edit you made, immediately under the infobox. The only thing is that it has been compacted, and you need to click on "show" for it to be visible in its entirety. That isn't a problem, and is quite common for articles about railway lines. Try your amendments again, and if there's still a problem, get back to me and I'll see if I can fathom out what's happening, or find someone who can help. Best of luck! Skinsmoke (talk) 19:45, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Yes, that was the problem. Thanks a lot. Regards--Buchbibliothek (talk) 21:56, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
No problem. Glad to have been of help. Skinsmoke (talk) 00:57, 19 August 2016 (UTC)