User talk:Spitzak

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Hello Spitzak, and welcome to Wikipedia!
(If you find this note to be too bulky, feel free to remove it whenever you want)

Thank you for your contributions, we are pleased to have you here and I hope you stay. I recommend you have a quick look through the Five Pillars of Wikipedia - this page gives a brief summary of what we value here, and if you want some tutorial on how to edit have a glance at Wikipedia:Welcome. Below is a collection of some other pages that you may find helpful, feel free to read them at your leasure if and when you want. (But of course you don't have to read any of that to contribute!)

If you need help with anything, please feel free to contact me on my talk page. Or altertnatively type {{helpme}} here and a user will help you as soon as possible. But remember to sign all your posts on talk/discussion pages with ~~~~, this helps us track of who's saying what and when in discussions.

Once again Welcome to Wikipedia, and happy editing! 19:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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Image without license[edit]

Unspecified source/license for Image:Utf8diagram.png[edit]


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File permission problem with File:Nuke screenshot.png[edit]

File Copyright problem

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MS-DOS 1.0[edit]

It used the FAT-12 filesystem on 160kb single-sided 8-sector 5¼"-inch floppies. It was extremely primitive in some respects, yet still a great advance over commonly-used CP/M filesystems, since the exact file length, file modification date and time, etc. were recorded. Subdirectories were added in DOS 2.0, yet the DOS 1 directory entry format remained unchanged until the introduction of LFNs in Windows 95... AnonMoos (talk) 12:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


Hi, I reverted you deletions in UTF-16, see edit summary. Probably you have a point in some deletions, but I did not see that in the whole. btw for my understanding, the thing "word" (as a bitlength unit) is not used in Unicode, so that makes it hard to understand for me. -DePiep (talk) 22:48, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

UTF-8's compactness[edit]

Hi, I noticed you removed my addition to UTF-8 explaining that UTF-8 is popular in part because it is more compact than UTF-16 and UTF-32. I don't understand why, though, because the current wording (which is the same, or very nearly the same, as what it said before I added this part) suggests that the compactness of UTF-8 for Western European languages is not a significant reason for its popularity, because it cites its ASCII compatibility as the only reason ("for this reason", to me, suggests no other possible reasons), which I have a bit of a hard time believing. You also said "lots of other rejected multibyte encodings are shorter", but I don't understand why that's relevant or even what these encodings are... - furrykef (Talk at me) 00:32, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I believe the reason for UTF-8 popularity is the ASCII compatibility, not compactness. An encoding that reused the ASCII bytes as part of larger characters would be more compact, and this is what most alternatives to UTF-8 did. (the other reason is that other multibyte encodings did not map all of Unicode or made the mapping hard to figure out). Comparing it to UTF-16 for size here does not make sense, as the reason it wins over UTF-16 is certainly compatibility, UTF-16 is incompatible with every single possible ASCII string!
I don't see why non-Unicode encodings are relevant here. When we talk about the popularity of UTF-8, I think one would generally assume "as opposed to other Unicode encodings", since, as you said, non-Unicode encodings generally don't cover the Unicode set.
In any case, I think my main issue here is that you seem insistent on citing compatibility as the only reason for UTF-8's popularity over UTF-16. Surely the size factors into it at least a little? If I were to store big heaps of Japanese text, for example, I would use UTF-16 (unless I thought there was a high probability that the files would need to be used with a program that only understands UTF-8). - furrykef (Talk at me) 03:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

License tagging for File:Unicode 2400 Chrome Ubuntu.png[edit]

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ARF CLI GUI etc[edit]

Please respond at: Talk:Abort, Retry, Fail?#Take two. —DragonHawk (talk|hist) 11:38, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Still waiting. Please respond. —DragonHawk (talk|hist) 02:15, 4 May 2011 (UTC)


I blocked and cleaned up after that person who was trying to impersonate you. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 05:50, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand.[edit]

Can you explain your checkin note in the NeWS article? You added "Actually pure PS could not no matter how much helped", but I can't understand what this means in the context of the edit. Maury Markowitz (talk) 11:07, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Actually I'm not sure. It may make sense, but it seemed to me that the added text was just useless filler that provided no information. NeWS itself "needs additional software" (ie the operating system, probably other stuff) in order to work, too. I'm guessing you are saying that DPS could be used for windows provided you use something else for creating the windows and handling all the i/o, but when you specify it that way it is a true statement for any library, that it could be *part* of a windowing system. You could argue that DPS is designed for output, but when you do that you have to define X11 as being part of it in which case you might as well claim they are integrated and thus DPS+X11 is capable "without additional software".
Ahhh. OK I do believe this still needs mentioning in the article, but I'll fix the context. Maury Markowitz (talk) 12:12, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Actually you're right, in the intro it's not needed at all. Maury Markowitz (talk) 12:14, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

i'm not getting why you have deleted the information on the page strcat from the section strcat_s. here i'm going to undo it. if you have any problem tplease drop message on my talk page. and give your suggestions. == Prasannjit Gondchawar (talk) 19:16, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

about deletion of the information from the section strcat[edit]

i'm not getting why you have deleted the information on the page strcat from the section strcat_s. here i'm going to undo it. if you have any problem tplease drop message on my talk page. and give your suggestions. == Prasannjit Gondchawar (talk) 19:17, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for March 13[edit]

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"Seek is O(1) in code units."[edit]

Can you give an algorithm demonstrating that? To find the nth character, do you not have to examine the preceding ones to determine that you indeed have the nth? (Of course, there are other issues here as well: the O(1) algorithm for char* is obviously at risk for buffer overruns, e.g., unless you have a solid upper bound, and can be fooled even then.) -- Elphion (talk) 16:27, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I see: I was misreading "code unit" as "character". But this is not interesting: no one is interested in seeking to the nth code unit unless you already have something like a lut for the string converting Char(n) into CU(m) (or more broadly, a list of starting points that you interested in -- beginning of paragraphs, etc. -- i.e., something you get by already having scanned the text). -- Elphion (talk) 16:32, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
I should be clearer: I am "on your side" here -- the argument that UTF8 or UTF16 strings can't be treated as arrays is a red herring, because strings shouldn't be treated as arrays until they have been thoroughly scanned. If one truly needs an array of the characters, it can be built during the scan. But the argument that seeking the nth CU is O(1) is irrelevant to this. -- Elphion (talk) 16:53, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
The mistake you are making is thinking that there is a need to count "characters" at all. First of all the word "character" is poorly defined in Unicode (it depends on the interpreted normalization and quite a few code points may not be "characters" so it is impossible to count them except by string scanning, in any encoding. I suspect however you mean "Unicode code points" when you say "characters". Or perhaps "UTF-16 code units" (where Unicode code points greater than U+FFFF are 2 units). I hope you can see from even these few examples, where I am unsure what you intend, why talking about "characters" is a bad idea.
In any case this makes as much sense as saying there is a need to find the N'th word or letter 'x' or anything else in O(1) time. There is no need for this, and text processing is quite fast despite the inability to do searches in less than linear time. The problem is that you need to remember *offsets* into strings and it is desirable to turn an offset into a pointer to the character in O(1) time. The obvious solution that any programmer should think of is to use fixed-size units for this "offset", in fact it is such a no-brainer that it seems hard to believe anybody would ever think otherwise. However decades of indoctrination where every man page says "characters" when talking about offsets seems to have turned even experienced programmers into complete morons when they encounter UTF-8.Spitzak (talk) 01:57, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Talk:UTF-8 #Byte vs Octet[edit]

[1] Please, restrain from personal attacks and assuming a bad faith, especially if there are no on-wiki evidences. Even if you allege to know something important about the real-life identity of that user, Wikipedia does not serve for spreading such rumours. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 06:04, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes sorry, that was stupid. It was obviously a good-faith edit.Spitzak (talk) 22:59, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

UCS2 and UTF-16[edit]

Just curious: why is UTF-16 not an extension of UCS2? While it's true that the codepoints assigned to surrogate pairs are no longer available in UTF-16, those values had no character assignments in UCS2, so they did not lose their "original meaning". Are there other codepoints that were sacrificed in the transition? -- Elphion (talk) 21:09, 13 July 2012 (UTC)


Hi -- not arguing the merits of your change, but pointing out that since the wording was being discussed on talk page, that's where you should have floated the change. Otherwise it's a quick descent into edit warring! -- Elphion (talk) 13:04, 18 September 2012 (UTC)


You said

You really think "accustomed to ASCII" is why this was confusing? Really? Give me a break

Before EBCDIC and ASCII were developed, Variants of BCD were the most common character codes, and they all have non-contiguous alphabets smilar to EBCDIC, so EBCDIC probably wouldn't have been confusing then. I do think it was only after programmers becaame used to ASCII that anyone even gave it any thought. I've posed it as a question on the EBCDIC talk page. Peter Flass (talk) 22:46, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


You said

You really think "accustomed to ASCII" is why this was confusing? Really? Give me a break

Before EBCDIC and ASCII were developed, Variants of BCD were the most common character codes, and they all have non-contiguous alphabets similar to EBCDIC, so EBCDIC probably wouldn't have been confusing. I do think it was only after programmers becaame used to ASCII that anyone even gave it any thought. I've posed it as a question on the EBCDIC talk page. Peter Flass (talk) 22:46, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


Please don't remove sourced content. A "nak" is a female "yak" - it's in the yak article. Rklawton (talk) 03:13, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

About the slashes[edit]

About Slash_(punctuation)#Encoding. The facts are clear (including the Unicode mislead), but I think we could get the prose better.

How about the section intro setup like: "Slashes are encoded in Unicode as ... and ...". But the Unicode naming is controversial/disputed.

(then the next paragraph says:) Typographically ... (zoom in on diffs).

One issue is, we should not push both definition and naming issue in one paragraph "encoding". What do you think? -DePiep (talk) 18:26, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

UTF-8 and ASCII backward compatibility[edit]

Hello there! Regarding our recent back-and-forth on UTF-8 and ASCII backward compatibility, please allow me to explain.

In a few words, a text editor which is only ASCII-aware can be used to process 7-bit ASCII subset of the UTF-8 data only, for example, and everything else is pretty much garbled to the end-user using such a text editor. If we take an API client as another example, it can also understand 7-bit ASCII subset only; everything else is garbage to anything speaking only ASCII, and any changes performed outside the 7-bit ASCII subset are going to break UTF-8's multibyte characters.

Hope it makes sense, and of course, I'm more than open to discussing this further. — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 06:58, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

"processing text" does NOT mean "text editor". What I meant is that code like this:
 printf("<some utf-8 here> %d\n", 10);
will work even if the C compiler and library does not know anything about UTF-8. The only requirement is that bytes with the high bit set are passed unchanged by the compiler, printf, and the output driver (it will help if the output is drawn on a terminal that understands UTF-8, but even if it is redirected to a file that is eventually displayed on a UTF-8 aware editor this works). This is true of virtually every language written to handle ISO-8859-1 or even the older IBM PC code pages.
Claiming the program must know something about the code point boundaries is as false as claiming it is impossible to process English text unless the program includes an english dictionary.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Spitzak (talkcontribs)
You're absolutely right with the above printf() example, and a bit later I'll change the wording in the article so it's covered. — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 15:23, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Just saw that you've already reverted my edits. Well, you can have it that way if you insist, though saying that ASCII-aware software "can process UTF-8 data as well" is somewhat misleading, as "processing" isn't well defined and can mean many things. — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 15:28, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Well, as always, things aren't that simple. For example, what if we had something like this, what's perfectly fine to be expected from an ASCII-aware application handling some ISO-8859-1 text:
printf("<some utf-8 here> %s\n", "<some iso-8859-1 here>");
That's happily producing invalid UTF-8 output. Thoughts? — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 15:40, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
That example will still produce correct UTF-8 both before and after the ISO-8859-1 text. Depending on what is reading the output you will either see error indicators inside that text, or it will be recognized as ISO-8859-1 and rendered correctly.Spitzak (talk) 18:38, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
How can UTF-8 be recognized as ISO-8859-1? — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 18:46, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Because it won't be valid UTF-8 (unless it is ASCII or an extremely unlikely arrangement of two or three letters and symbols in a row). This error can be detected by looking at no more than 4 bytes in order to determine that the first byte must not be the start of a UTF-8 character, there is no need to find the "ends" of the ISO-8859-1, this is strictly a one-pass algorithm. The display can then do something with this byte, such as show an error indicator, or guess that it is in ISO-8859-1 (or CP1252). It can then continue interpreting with the next byte, which will allow this to repeat if there is a long sequence of non-UTF-8 in the text. This will re synchronize correctly on the next valid UTF-8 code point.Spitzak (talk) 19:13, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
That's all fine, but the point is that using ASCII-aware software provides forward compatibility with UTF-8 only in case 7-bit ASCII characters are used in combination with untouched multibyte UTF-8 characters. Why would those 128+ single-byte characters have to be ISO-8859-1 or CP1252? Why wouldn't they actually be Windows-1253, for example? Anything beyond 7-bit ASCII is a plain guessing game, if you agree. — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 19:33, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Sure, but I fail to see what a "UTF-8 aware" program could do that is any better if it is given a block of bytes that is not UTF-8. Yea it can throw an exception, but IMHO that is *worse*, not better. The trivial operation of copying a block of bytes that is IMPOSSIBLE to confuse with valid data is the correct behavior.Spitzak (talk) 23:50, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Well, I'd say that we're pretty much on the same page, and the whole confusion came from the vague definition of "processing". At the same time, the subset of bytes that can't be mistaken (in both directions) is the 7-bit ASCII. If it goes into 8-bit ASCII, backward/forward compatibility breaks due to design of UTF-8. Agreed? — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 02:59, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes, any program that assigns a meaning to an 8-bit byte will fail to handle UTF-8, mostly because they may change this byte to a different value. The biggest problems are programs that make NEL (0x85) and non-breaking space (0xA0) into whitespace characters. But there is a lot of programs, in particular both compiled and interpreted languages, that assign no meaning to any bytes between quotes in a string constant other than the quotes and backslash, which are ASCII.Spitzak (talk) 03:22, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
... and other than dollar signs and curly brackets – as that's the case for PHP, for example, which is still good. — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 03:42, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Du erhältst einen Orden![edit]

Minor Barnstar Hires.png Der Detailorden
For your FLTK change Polluks 12:10, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Reversion without explanation[edit]

When you revert a good-faith edit (as you did here), it's best to provide a reason for the reversion. Otherwise the editor whose edit you reverted can't learn from their mistake. In this case, your reversions seem pretty low-effort, given that you could have also fixed the other occurrences of the word "octet" since you feel it's so obviously obscure and unused. When reverting good-faith edits, I'd encourage you to improve the page if the edit was prompted by inconsistency (as in this case) or some other easily-fixed problem. Electricmuffin11 (talk) 07:28, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

November 2014[edit]

{{subst:User:BracketBot/inform|diff=635280213|page=Control character|by= by modifying 1 "()"s|debug=(-1, 0, 0, 0)|list=yes|remaining=*[[newline|CR and LF]] used to separate lines of text. The code 127 ([[Delete character|DEL]])) is also a control character. [[Extended ASCII]] sets defined by [[ISO 8859]] added the codes 128

  • character|escape]], <code>ESC</code>, <code>[[\e]]</code> ([[GCC (software)|GCC]] only), <code>^[</code>).
  • normally. For example, the sequence of code 27, followed by the printable characters <nowiki>"[2;10H", would cause a DEC VT-102 terminal to move its [[cursor (computers)|</nowiki>
  • with 31, forcing bits 6 and 7 to zero. For example, pressing "control" and the letter "g" or "G" (code 103 in [[octal]] or 71 in [[decimal|base 10]], which is 01000111 in [[Binary numeral system|


Please, a little lighter on the hammer![edit]

I realize your recent edits to the ANSI article are all in GF, but you deleted/reverted considerable useful formatting and ancillary information while in the process of deleting what you feel is "totally wrong". For instance, you deleted the statement that VT52 clones were made as part of that "totally wrong" edit, which I think you would agree is not "totally wrong". Please, a little lighter on a reverts! Maury Markowitz (talk) 17:23, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open![edit]

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April 2016[edit]

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Yea, maybe you need to remove yourself from the ANSI page. You have reverted an improvement.[edit]

(Undid revision 737919284 by TiredTendencies (talk) "Replacement text is not better, seems to imply that you must type a zero"

That's because you must type a zero.  ??? What is the confusion here? It not only implies you must hit numpad 0,. but it suitably states such.

ALT+0 # # # where # # # are 3 numbers from the old DOS alt codes. To get the same alt code character, you must now add a zero in front of the original alt code. Not sure what the confusion here is. Was more re-placing 'citation needed' to proper spots either way. The reversion you completed has now made the CN marks in incorrectly suggestive places as to WHAT exactly needs a citation.

And yes, it seems to imply you must hit the numpad 0 (as I stated with my edit, specifically using the word 'numpad'). Why? Because YOU MUST HIT THE NUMPAD ZERO to access original DOS alt codes at their original alt code numbers! Perhaps it should not imply, perhaps it should simply STATE that you must do so. Because you must.

Might be time to take the ANSI page off your watchlist. Articles belong to nobody and it is clear from reading your talk page you have aggressively reverted this article multiple times for no real reason. You even have a 'give a reason for edit reversion in good faith' listing here. TiredTendencies (talk) 23:36, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

No, you hit zero first to use the *NEW* codes. If there is no leading zero you get the old cp 437. Your text is implying the opposite.