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User talk:StephenBuxton

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Not to be confused with User:Stephen.

Nuvola apps important.svgHere because I deleted your article? Read through this first to find out why.

If you do leave me a message I will generally respond here, unless you want me to reply elsewhere.

Requesting original article to work on for Swathanthra Malayalam Computing[edit]

Hi, you recently acted on the speedy deletion flag of Swathanthra Malayalam Computing. After the page was marked for deletion I was trying my best to make it encyclopedic. And, as far as notability is concerned, I had at least put 4 different newspaper links. Could you please retrieve the original article for me so that I can work on that in my own user namespace and get it reviewed by someone before moving it to main namespace? (I was sincerely trying to explain the situation in the talk page, but there is no way to see the response on the talk page. So, could you also tell me what made you feel like the references I had put or the language I used was not enough? So that I can improve it.) --asdofindia (talk) 10:21, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

The biggest problem you had was that none of the references you used were proper references. All the items that I clicked were either press releases, or from SMC's own website. None of those are acceptable at proving notability. If you can find me at least one item that shows notability, then I will restore the page, userfy it and let you work on it. Without that though, all you will be doing is wasting your own time, as the article would never be accepted without it. Remember, to qualify as an acceptable reference, the item needs to be:
  1. From a notable third party source. A respected newspaper or magazine would be a good example; a review by an unknown blogger is a bad example. The "About" page on SMC's own page is a really bad example.
  2. It is an unbiased report. An independent and honest review from a respected magazine is a good example; a reprint of a press release is a bad example, no matter how prestigious the magazine that is printing it is.
  3. It helps to demonstrate notability. An article about SMC, perhaps winning a notable industry award, would be a good example; an article about something entirely different that mentions SMC in passing is a bad example.
If you can do that, we can work on how to edit the entry so it reads a bit less like a press release or advertising copy. For more help on demonstrating notability, please read this page.
If you have any more questions, please don't hesitate to ask. Stephen! Coming... 15:39, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Remember - one item that demonstrates notability will get me to userfy the page. However, you will need at least three good references so that the article can be moved back into Wikipedia. Stephen! Coming... 15:41, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for that response. I don't know what links you were clicking over. The Google cache shows 14 links under references. None of that is from SMC's own website. I had made sure that the only first party link was in the External links section. There were 3 links to pages on the websites of well known FOSS projects - GNOME, KDE, and Mozilla. These links are proof that SMC is leading the translation of all those projects into Malayalam. Then there were 3 links to Google Summer of Code websites 2007, 2013, and 2014 showing that SMC was a mentoring organization in those years. But I guess what you're saying is that these are not newspapers or magazines and therefore does not imply notability.
Agreed, there are (2 + 3 =) 5 links that are reprints of press release. And one link which is not about SMC and SMC is passingly mentioned in it and another which is about an event that SMC was part of. I understand that none of the links in this paragraph might be useful in establishing notability.
There is only one link remaining which was the first link in the references list. This one, unlike all others, is by a reputable newspaper in Kerala (Mathrubhumi) and is directly about SMC. The two pictures in that are banners of SMC. Unfortunately it is written in Malayalam, which I assume you can't read. But I hope you can see the URL and the tags in the article.
Now I've to find two more links, right? I'll try, okay? Please bear with me if I still find worthless links.
  1. Online Malayalam literary movements neglected by Viswa Malayala Mahotsavam is from The New Indian Express newspaper and compares SMC with Malayalm Wikipedia.
  2. Fight to save Malayalam gets sloppy has a quote from a former vice-chancellor of Kerala University which compares SMC to Malayalam Wikipedia again. This one is in The Hindu
  3. Let us salute the Linux localisers again from The Hindu which says "The Swatantra Malayalam Computing organisation has taken a lead role in growing open source computing in the state"
One of the reasons I'm facing difficulties finding links is because "Swathanthra" can be spelled in different ways because of translation from Malayalam. And the other reason is that Malayalam newspaper websites did not use Unicode encoding in the past (which ironically was corrected very much thanks to SMC's work itself in influencing Unicode standards and creating unicode fonts) and therefore I can't even search old Malayalam articles about SMC. And now the community has grown so old that most of the articles that come are just reprints of press releases.
I keep seeing many newspaper links about SMC getting accepted on GSoC, SMC camp, SMC launching libindic project, SMC celebrating 13th anniversary, SMC launching Indic keyboard, etc. I understand none of these matter when it comes to notability. But I think it's okay to be a bit considerate because fonts, localization, etc is a relatively non-newsworthy topic for newspapers and therefore not a lot of coverage is given to the organization per se, compared to the events and projects. --asdofindia (talk) 17:10, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
I stand corrected about using SMC's own page; I looked back at the deleted page, and I had mistaken the Google Developer pages for SMC as SMC's own about pages. Although, in my defence, they did look like the usual "About us" pages so often seen.
What you have shown me above (and this relates solely to the English pages; my knowledge of Malayalam is next to zero) are links that do not show notability. On another talk page, one editor directed your attention to WP:ORG. I'd like to do the same, but this time to one particular section: Depth of Coverage. Nothing you have shown me gives anything more than a passing mention of SMC, which is insufficient for notability. If newspaper or journal coverage is an issue, then there may be other ways of showing notability, but it will be harder. Once again, have a read of WP:ORG, and decide if it meets the criteria. If it does, and you can demonstrate it, then I'll happily restore the article for you. But if not, then I fear (for the time being at least) you are fighting a losing battle.
Remember though, if you disagree with my deletion and cannot persuade me to undelete it, you may appeal at WP:DRV. Stephen! Coming... 17:34, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
I don't disagree with your deletion. You're following WP guidelines. My disagreement is probably with the situation in which SMC is in. It does a lot of commendable work, but there are no in depth reviews about it (except the one in Malayalam). Maybe I just am unable to find the links. I'll ask others to help and maybe some magazine/newspaper might indeed cover SMC in depth if some community member pushes for it. Whatever way, when I do get some more links to establish the notability, I'll come back to you. Till then, happy administratoring :) --asdofindia (talk) 17:53, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
It might be worthwhile creating the page on the Malayalam Wikipedia, if it doesn't already exist. If you do come up with anything for the English Wiki, do come back to me and we'll take it from there. Till then, happy editing :) Stephen! Coming... 18:00, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Hey, I'm back (a bit sooner than I expected). There's a page about SMC already on Malayalam wikipedia since March, 2008.
So, I got help from a lot of volunteers of the SMC community to find sources that establish notability. They gave me some articles much better than some of the links I put here earlier. I was dismissing many of them as reprints of press release or as passing mentions. I then read WP:GNG and learned that sources do not have to be available online or be written in English; and WP:NRV which says the topic should have long term interest. Also, later in that guideline it says "whether people independent of the topic itself have actually considered the topic notable enough that they have written and published non-trivial works of their own that focus upon it - without incentive, promotion, or other influence by people connected to the topic matter." I also figured out that there is no fixed number of sources required since sources vary in quality and depth of coverage.
And then I went through all the articles collected in the media coverage album of SMC's facebook page. Most of these are in Malayalam. And there is varying amount of depth of coverage. So what I'll do now is, upload the relevant photos to an imgur album with caption that translates the context and the relevant portion of the text, the approximate date at which these were published so that the long term interest is established and other relevant information. Please do note that SMC is a non-profit organization and none of these are paid promotions or advertisements. Rather, it was the newspapers themselves who decided to spend their effort on covering SMC's role in many events (probably triggered by a press release, but the independ author has done non-trivial work of their own in each case as will be demonstrated below).
Imgur album with title and caption detailing depth of coverage in each
Please note that the above album does not include the earlier most deep coverage in Mathrubhumi newspaper; and another slightly less deep coverage in Deccan Herald. Also, there are no online copies of these articles other than the images I uploaded because the websites hosting those news have changed their software after publication or didn't have online version at all. In case you don't trust me on the analysis of above articles, please do consult any Malayalam administrator or editor you trust to verify. And thanks a lot for making me go through the nuances of wikipedia guidelines. I would like to end with a single link to this article in The Hindu about IDN regime which potrays SMC as a serious organization capable of criticizing official policies.
Also note that none of these are links to technology magazines; but instead they're all links to mainstream newspapers. This, because Malayalam has a very small audience for technology related articles and therefore there aren't enough (or any) magazines writing about technology. --asdofindia (talk) 05:34, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Hi! I have restored the article and userfied it. You can find it here: User:Asdofindia/Swathanthra Malayalam Computing. As for the references, they do appear to show notability, but you should be careful about how to go about referencing them. I'm not an expert on the correct format for referencing, but I think there might be an image copyright issue with scanning the articles and putting them online (although I see you do give the origin sources). My knowledge of image copyright law is very limited, so this is my advice: Write the article as you see fit, and include the references you have shown me above. Then once you've tidied it up, I would recommend going to The Help Desk and asking their opinions on the referencing. If you want me to have a look over the article as well, let me know when you're ready for my input.
The text, at the moment, is looking reasonably neutral (CSD Advert was probably a bit harsh) but it is all too easy for it to go back as you add more text. Have a read through of WP:PEACOCK to see the sorts of words and phrases you should avoid.
Please note that after all this, there is still no guarantee that your article will be moved back into Wikipedia mainspace, but I will add that it is a lot more likely than how it was about a week ago! Stephen! Coming... 21:58, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

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