User talk:TFOWR/Archive 6

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Replacement filing cabinet.svg This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
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Admin Barnstar.png The Admin's Barnstar
For being civil with the uncivilized, for bringing fresh energy to an old project, for humility, and for striking me as an all-around-nice guy.*Kat* (talk) 08:31, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much - I'm not sure what I've done to deserve this, but thank you anyway! By way of repayment, I promise to do my best to remain civil, energetic and nice! TFOWR 08:33, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Your name make frequent appearances on the Recent changes page. I've just been really impressed by your sheer, unassuming, competence.---*Kat* (talk) 08:36, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) From a quick scroll up, there's as many reasons to give you this as there are sections on this page. Can I second the barnstar? sonia♫♪ 08:42, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

City of Bell Talk Page

see [[1]] talk page for discussion. And tell me honestly , was my paragraph out of line? Thanks! DocOfSoc (talk) 11:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

This paragraph? No, not at all - but I'm not convinced Will Bebeck is saying it was, either - it seems to me that their concern (and I take no view on whether their concern is valid or not) is over the amount of text on one issue. They seem to be suggesting that either it gets cut down or put into a new article. Why not take a break from the article for a wee while, then have a think about creating a new article (after all, a new article might get you a "Did You Know" on the Main Page!) I honestly don't think Will Bebeck is criticising you - I think they're doing their best to make helpful suggestions. One way to "test" that would be to see if they'd be willing to help you with the new article - I bet they would (and if they're not, I certainly would, and I bet Crohnie would as well). TFOWR 11:23, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Incidentally, I'm going to be offline for an hour or so, but I will be coming back (obviously!) so don't worry if I suddenly "go silent" ;-) TFOWR 11:25, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


Hello TFOWR, have you any knowledge of a barnstar that is correct to give to a double voter in RFA, one in support and one in oppose...a comedy barnstar. Something RFA was successful and thank you for supporting and opposing me in the same RFA..? Off2riorob (talk) 17:29, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Heh, I saw that post and was too busy sniggering! Off-hand, there's {{The Barnstar of Good Humor}}, which is probably appropriate given how the editor handled the situation when you told them about it. I'll take a look and see if there's a better one. TFOWR 17:32, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) {{The Surreal Barnstar}}? Face-tongue.svg SpitfireTally-ho! 17:33, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
I'd second the surreal barnstar - "any Wikipedian who adds "special flavor" to the community by acting as a sort of wildcard". You could argue that they've created a new, revolutionary policy ("vote early! vote often!") and award {{The Red Barnstar}}... ;-) TFOWR 17:40, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Thank you, I was amused. I am not good at giving barnstars but I will try, thanks for the ideas. Awarded. Off2riorob (talk) 17:43, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


None necessary, believe me. :-)--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:43, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I thought it was important to give proper attribution for it ;-) I've continued the meme at User talk: TFOWR 14:46, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Incidentally, I've semi'd Verbal's talkpage - is it worth semi'ing the other targets, too? TFOWR 14:47, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Depends on whether our F-R-I-E-N-D comes back with another IP or not, I guess... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:01, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
That makes sense. I semi'd Verbal's because - well, I made an assumption that was probably incorrect in hindsight (I'm currently working with Verbal at an article about a contentious organisation and put 2 and 2 together... badly...) Only three hours, so I'll leave it for now, but feel free to modify if you think it's inappropriate. TFOWR 15:04, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
But 2 + 2 does sometimes equal 5, depending on how large of values of 2 that you're using. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:29, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Now my head hurts! Didn't O'Brien (Nineteen Eighty-Four) argue just that? Or am I seeing things that don't exist again? ;-) TFOWR 15:34, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
There! Are! Four! Lights!--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:56, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
And O'Brien spent time "incarcerated" too... TFOWR 20:00, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Works for me, though what's there isn't that exciting - it's a site where you can download a ttf font, where every character is the new Indian ruppee symbol.

Try :-)

I42 (talk) 19:46, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Just me, apparently! (And the previous editor - I reverted a revert ;-) I'll leave it alone! TFOWR 19:49, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Labour Party

Needs that semi-protect I think --Snowded TALK 20:03, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

That recent redirect? I've semi'd it for a week. Hopefully the bizarre IP editors will start discussing rather than edit warring... I find this a really strange one - it took me all of two seconds to confirm the article's claim on the Labour Party website. TFOWR 20:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Its political, has been for a long time. People either try and add labels or subtract them to make a political point. Mostly IP stuff. Maybe this will put them off for a bit. --Snowded TALK 20:22, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Save admins some work

Resolved: Mauler90 marked as resolved at ANI

Hi Tfowr, I am contacting you because I think there is an obsolete topic on the admin page since my block has been lifted. It can be closed directly. That way we could spare an investigator some work. I am referring to this one. Cheers! --Faust (talk) 21:13, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

We are too late. Mauler90 has beat us to it... Thanks any way! --Faust (talk) 21:15, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Just seen your post here and Mauler90's post there: I'll mark it as "resolved" here just so I can feel I've done something ;-) TFOWR 21:16, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Mauler is the fastest draw in the west. --Faust (talk) 21:19, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

That's what she said (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:21, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Vote X for Change (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log)

I'm asking you here since you seem to be active right now and I don't want give this guy the attention he wants on a public board like Ani: See this edit. Can you block the IP? Thanks.--Atlan (talk) 09:51, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

My first thought was "no, I'm not familiar enough with Vote X for Change". But blimey - that was obvious. Obvious sock is obviously blocked. TFOWR 09:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Can you block it longer? :) The IP appears to be static as all its edits are by Vote X. Last block was for a month and now it's still used by him.--Atlan (talk) 09:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Heh! And I saw Elockid had already blocked the IP last month. Will do... TFOWR 09:56, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 Done Blocked until 27th September. TFOWR 09:59, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

And another one. I don't understand how this easily spotted block evasion keeps going unnoticed.--Atlan (talk) 11:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Courcelles already blocked. Thanks anyway.--Atlan (talk) 11:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Heh, I'm too slow! FWIW, they both geo-locate to the same city (London) and I concur with you and Courcelles: WP:DUCK. TFOWR 11:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


Compass barnstar.png The Guidance Barnstar
For this positive message to a user where it would have been so easy to have left the user with just a negative experience.

JamesBWatson (talk) 10:52, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Face-blush.svg Thank you! To be honest, it did give me a chance to get a few thoughts straight in my head as well (and served as an apology to SPI for the <ahem> lack of movement from me in that direction!) TFOWR 11:09, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Thats a pretty one, Yes well done to you TFOWR for all your recent contributions. Off2riorob (talk) 11:04, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

It's just making up for the controversy and blocking I'm responsible for elsewhere - I'm sure you can think of two or three places where I should be keeping my head down and my mouth shut... ;-) TFOWR 11:09, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
How many have you blocked so far? Off2riorob (talk) 11:11, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Between 100 and 200 Face-surprise.svg but most I have no problem with - vandals etc. There have been a few along the way that were much harder - established editors (even established editors from "another" Wikipedia... but you'll know about that already...) I handled a request at RFPP t'other day as well, in which I left an annoyed comment for another admin. I greatly prefer the nice stuff, obviously...! TFOWR 11:21, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Yes, we are none of us saints. (At least, I clearly am not!) Off2riorob (talk) 11:27, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
I certainly hope that all admins "prefer the nice stuff", but I am sure we all find ourselves spending a good deal of time on the stuff that's not so nice. What struck me in this case, and also in a number of other TFOWR actions, is that you took the trouble to do some nice stuff where I feel many of us would not have bothered. (Incidentally, I also found your comments on SPI very interesting for my own reasons. I had recently made a comment in an SPI case and then wondered if I should instead have stepped in and taken administrative action. There was a backlog of cases, and here was I walking away and leaving it for another admin to have to deal with, instead of helping out. On the other hand, I was not very confident about stepping in, because of a lack of relevant experience, so I felt conflicting feelings. I then read your comments, which encouraged me to think I was right, for the moment, to walk away from it. So you reassured me as well as (perhaps) the editor the message was intended for. However, I'm not giving you two barnstars for it.) JamesBWatson (talk) 11:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
However, I'm not giving you two barnstars for it. Meany! And thanks again - your comments are reassuring for me, as well. It's good to talk! I guess there are a lot of us who wonder the same things. TFOWR 11:46, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Yes, somehow you guys can end up just going round passing various levels of punishment and I don't suppose that what what you originally came here to do..? Off2riorob (talk) 12:00, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
At commons they actually warn potential admins that content work will be seriously affected by a successful RfA... I did manage to do some content work earlier today!!1! I added two refs to something in my sandbox (something another editor wrote, mind...) TFOWR 12:11, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
I support Admin breaks, imo an Admin that has forgotten what it is like to be a simple editor has lost touch. All Admins should ask themselves often...What would I do here at Wikipedia if I was not an Administrator and regularly take weeks off and suchlike. Without that, it is a bit like being a policeman and having to wear your hat all the time. Off2riorob (talk) 12:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
That's an interesting point. I promised myself I'd take one week off a month to focus on content - last time was the Dramaout. I must be due another break! Don't policemen wear their hats the whole time? I remember at college a woman had a boyfriend in the police who used to leave parties if anyone started smoking cannabis, because otherwise he'd have to arrest people... Heh! In my week off I'll edit using one of my sock accounts, and won't block anyone. TFOWR 12:24, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
If you wear your hat all the time you'll get really bad hat hair and a ring round your head, hehe. Off2riorob (talk) 12:34, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Heh! Unrelated to the above (my 3G connection is really slow right now and I'm getting pissed off waiting for pages to load) but I'm going to start a break now. Only a few hours, probably. And not for content work - I need to flog my hat and get a hair cut to avoid that hat hair ;-) TFOWR 12:37, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
I notice that, too. I've got a lot of content that I want to write, copyedit, etc... and I find myself doing the necessary but mind-numbingly boring task of closing CFD's right now. Sometimes I wish there was a button in the preferences to temporarily disable admin buttons as a way of forcing myself to actually do something productive... Courcelles (talk) 12:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
I created a sock for Internet cafe-type editing ("TFOWR's left sock") and immediately realised the impersonation potential, so create a right sock as well, which has limited use apart form anti-impersonation. I'm thinking I'll use that - no tempting admin buttons... One thing I've found over the past week (dodgy Internet connection week...) is that I'm not going to the admin dashboard very often, if at all - but I'm still spending a great deal of time on admin stuff. My logs would, I suspect, show a very lazy admin. But it sure doesn't feel like I've been shirking! TFOWR 14:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
  • The more observant talkpage stalkers will have noticed that I managed to stay offline for - ooh - half an hour. While that's probably a new personal best, it wasn't what I was hoping for. I'm going to try again to get that all-important real-life stuff done. In the meantime, if anyone knows of a good "Wikiholic" template for me I'd be ever-so-much obliged! I'd look myself, but that would just encourage me to stay online... TFOWR 15:10, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
    • With your broken interwebs, maybe {{upgrade}}? sonia♫♪ 15:20, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
      • Ah, the problem isn't so much the broken tubes as the broken editor who can't resist just one more edit! Even if the intarwebs were completely down I have a system worked out with Jack 1314 (talk · contribs) whereby I communicate using signal fires and Jack edits for me! ;-) My real problem is an editing addiction... TFOWR 16:41, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
  • I had no idea what I was starting when I posted that barnstar. However, I think the idea of an admin break is a good one. I must try it. JamesBWatson (talk) 15:37, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
    • Threads on this talkpage have a habit of spiralling off in strange, new and exciting directions! ;-) TFOWR 16:41, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I upgraded the block to 6 months. I'm pretty sure this is just someone using anonymizer proxies. Syrthiss (talk) 13:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

No worries. Incidentally, I think of this user as "Jayjg's fan" - is there a sock master to pin this on, or should I just treat each instance as vandalism and move on? TFOWR 13:13, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
I can't recall at this moment the sockmaster, been trying to think of it for a few minutes now. Thats essentially what I've been doing. Its not vital that we block the IPs for long (they likely have already moved on), I've just been doing it if I notice it and see a bunch of blacklist mentions on the IP. Syrthiss (talk) 13:17, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


Hi TFOWR. Your comment regarding my (I thought, relatively gentle) ribbing of Awmyth was fair enough. I would point out, though, Awmyth's incivil behaviour in return. No only did he imply that I might be a moron, but he did it in bold text! Not asking you to do anything about this - it is best left now, I think - but I don't think you quite gave the impression of even-handedness. Thanks for your effort, though. --FormerIP (talk) 12:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

It was a clear personal attack, an accusation of membership to a group. Nothing comedy or relatively gentle about it. Off2riorob (talk) 12:53, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
He's a self-identified member, Rob. I didn't out him. --FormerIP (talk) 12:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Well, fair enough if he has declared but your comment was still an attack a bullying tactic in the discussion. Off2riorob (talk) 12:56, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
That isn't civil Rob. He wasn't in the discussion and I think drawing his attention to the nature of the organisation he says he's a member of was fair enough (you're entitled to disagree). I deleted the comment quite quickly and posted in a less jokey fashion on his talkpage instead. --FormerIP (talk) 13:01, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Its not funny at all, in any way. I fail to see how you can make such comments and then winge to me that my comments are uncivil, anyways you have deleted it, I won't be deleting anything I have said. Off2riorob (talk) 13:05, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
That's a fair point - I don't think I was even-handed either. I'm cutting Awmyth a lot more slack because they're a new editor, and they got hit with a lot of warnings yesterday.
Don't think I was warning you, by the way - my comment was very much advisory. As you note, Awmyth has self-identified. However, they are new, and may - upon reflection - choose to be more circumspect about what information they divulge in the future (I suspect their self-identifying was a way to "win an argument" - the same way a new editor might state that they're a professor so should be afforded a degree of intellectual respect).
Incidentally, part of the reason I posted at NPOVN yesterday was to pull in new editors who could maybe address some of Awmyth issues without me getting involved - because I suspect an EDL member may not take kindly to being lectured by a self-proclaimed anarchist. I feel restricted in what I can say to Awmyth. That's my problem, not yours, but may help explain why I've been ultra-tolerant of Awmyth and less tolerant of other editors. TFOWR 13:12, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Okay thanks for the explanation. I think it is important to be even-handed, though, because sometimes the diffs get used as evidence in an AN trial. And thanks for outing yourself. At this rate I will soon know the poitical leanings of everyone on the talk page. --FormerIP (talk) 13:18, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
(stalking). Honestly I wouldn't cut too much slack. He jumped in pretty quickly on the talk page with threats of arbitration and then went off on an ad-hominem attack on Britishwatcher (suggesting he was a BNP member and therefor biased... which is ironic considering he is an EDL member... ;)). --Errant Tmorton166(Talk) 13:26, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Aye, I saw all that. In a perfect world, it'd be BW taking Awmyth under his wing, but I suspect BW wouldn't want to do that now - and who can blame him? TFOWR 13:35, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Not much personal outing, I'm afraid - I wear my politics on my sleeve! I toned down my userpage after my RfA, so as not to put off editors who need to deal with me, but it's pretty much an open secret ;-) I take your point about where this may go, and will try and continue with that in mind. TFOWR 13:35, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

straw poll

Are you OK to review a closure 24 hours after I set it up - ie tomorrow morning? --Snowded TALK 15:28, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I would be, but a completely non-involved editor (or admin) would probably be even better. I have someone in mind but I'd prefer to run it past them before making any commitment for them. Would you be happy with someone else? Happy to do it if not... TFOWR 16:45, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
I think you have the understanding of the context and the politics (internal) of some of the editors, but another pair of eyes would be good. I can see a pattern now which I think will resolve with only a few dissents but we could do with a few eyes on it in the morning. --Snowded TALK 17:07, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
On thing that occurs to me is that I have already expressed a preference on the talk page for one of the options in the first straw poll. Not sure if that would or should disqualify me? I'd be happy to close it anyway, on an WP:IAR-basis... the other two straw polls I don't believe I've expressed any preference on, and have no problem closing. TFOWR 07:38, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Incidentally, I'm planning on closing around 11:30 BST. Gives everyone a chance to wake up, get to work (or whatever) and generally "be around" at a potentially controversial time. TFOWR 07:40, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Note to self re: UTC: 11:30am BST is 10:30am UTC. TFOWR 07:49, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I think that is fine and I'm pleased it has worked. Single Issue wins easily. Political is slightly more problematic, but of the three supporters only one is firm, the other two are happy to see it go if Far Right stays, which on the basis of the later discussion there is no consensus to change . Group/Movement etc is probably the most open, but the one least likely to create a controversy. Interested to see how you call it. I'll happily defend removal of political until there is a clear reference from a national newspaper to support it, and I tend to agree that if you say far right then political does along with it anyway--Snowded TALK 07:53, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Nicely done on the closing TFOWR. :) especially over the political options. --Errant Tmorton166(Talk) 11:08, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Do you smell

Well far be it from me to comment, now could you leave the room please you upseting the incontinent beagle.Slatersteven (talk) 18:56, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

 ;-) I'm not sure who sent out the invites, so I hope they appreciate I'm joking. Probably worth mentioning that I am taking the process seriously as well - at least more seriously than I'd treat a similar process in real-life... Please apologise to the beagle for me! TFOWR 19:00, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Good so long

I just want you to know that, since the multiple incidents two days ago, everything has been going pretty okay. I haven't been in any real conflicts (actually, one SPI edit yesterday, which I believed was uncontroversial). I think if I continue this way, I will get back the other editors confidence again. It is nice to know I have you in the background as a friend saying the most obvious thing, "Don't take criticism to heart - it's an inevitable part of working collaboratively.". /HeyMid (contributions) 21:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

No worries! There are far too many problem editors that we should be worrying about, instead of worrying about enthusiastic editors. We all make mistakes - the important thing is to learn from them. I was looking through my contribution history only yesterday, and it amazed me some of the things I was doing and saying a year or two ago. I strongly suspect that when I look back on now in a year's time I'll be horrified at some of the things I'm doing at the moment! ;-) TFOWR 21:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Yes, one year ago I, that's so shocking that I'd better not say that in polite company. Never mind. As you were. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 22:02, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Oh come on! You have two choices: you come clean, and don't leave us hanging... or I spend tomorrow trawling through your contribs. And tomorrow - for me - starts in one hour. Your choice! TFOWR 22:09, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Yeah! Anyway, what polite company are you referring to? Jack 1314 (talk) 22:11, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
TFOWR, as you said, we are only people, and we always make mistakes sometimes, but we can only be better and correct our mistakes. People always change, we have to forget about what happened like a year ago or if you feel yourself awkward after saying something you didn't intend to say. Everyone, take this into account: We all have our flaws. /HeyMid (contributions) 22:30, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Heh, too true! For what it's worth, there's no way BWilkins is going to tell me what they did bad a year ago (and I'm far too lazy to try and find out - I'm just teasing!) TFOWR 22:37, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, you have to focus on the future, not yesterday or trying to excuse everyone for all the bad you did year(s) ago. And you have been an admin for only a month and a half. By the way, what is a "null" edit? /HeyMid (contributions) 22:41, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
TFOWR, I would really like to further talk with you in the near future. Thanks for your responses and for being a so pleasant user! /HeyMid (contributions) 22:46, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
"WP:Null edits always make me laugh - in French, a "nul" is a "dummy"... so in French, instead of "Microsoft Access for Dummies" you have "Microsoft Access pour les nuls" (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 22:51, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Heh! That's the second time someone's asked that recently (I think HJ Mitchell referred to a "dummy edit" at ANI, and I explained what it was).
...anyway, a "dummy edit" (I called it a "null edit" but strictly I made a "dummy edit") is an edit that doesn't change the article: it adds or removes "white space". (My "null edit" added one empty line). Now, that may seem really pointless. It's useful for a couple of reasons: the most common reason is so that you can use an WP:Edit summary to communicate with other editors. That's not why I did it just now, though. I needed to delete an edit, and it turns out that you can't do that if the edit is the most recent - so I made a dummy edit in order to delete the edit before mine. TFOWR 22:52, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
But lol, you censored your own null edit. /HeyMid (contributions) 23:02, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Aye! What I should have done is deleted a post, then WP:REVDELed it. When I realised my mistake I posted a new post over the old post, and then revdel-ed my dummy edit. Before I did that the "bad post" was still visible. Usually when I use revdel it's to remove an offensive edit summary - in this case it was the post itself that needed to be removed, and revdel doesn't seem to work quite as I'd expect it to. I've made the same mistake (see - I'm still making mistakes!) before, so you'd think I'd have learned by now... ;-) TFOWR 23:12, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
I should MYOB but I have to say your humanity is endearing! ;-) Namaste...DocOfSoc (talk) 05:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
MYOB? Not at all! You're always very welcome here, DocOfSoc! And thank you! TFOWR 06:45, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Oh that's right it's WIKI! LOL And you are so very welcome ;-) DocOfSoc (talk) 08:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


Are you planning to work on the entire article, or were you only working on the one section? The article needs to be reformatted (why is there an image of trees in the references section?) which I can do fairly quickly and wouldn't mind doing. I might make some people mad though, because the TOC needs flattening per WP:TOC so it might look much different. That said, it would be easier to add content, I think, with a more streamlined structure. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:32, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I'd love to work on the entire article... but I'm realistic about my own limitations ;-) The Gwadar section I got "tricked" into - I had been doing some research into a separate issue ("was Oman ever part of the British Empire?": no) when an editor dumped the Gwadar section into the article and Begoon queried it (it was a, ahem, bit of a mess). I started doing some research around Gwadar, it sat in my sandbox for ages, and you know the rest...!
Why is there an image of trees in the references section? I don't know. I saw it go in and decided it was one of those things it's easier to ignore and forget about until later...
You know the "Broken Window" theory that Republicans sometimes talk about? I feel in some ways they're quite right - and especially on Wikipedia. An article starts off looking quite good. With a bit of work it could reach GA. But then an enthusiastic but clueless editor does something, and before you know the article has become something of a dumping ground for all sorts of stuff and it's too much work to fix it all so nothing gets fixed.
Begoon and I are, as far as I know, the only regular editors with Oman on our watchlist, and neither of us are big Oman experts (it's on our watchlists, but so are many, many other articles, etc).
So... would I mind? No. Would Begoon mind? I doubt it. I'd say go for it, with my gratitude and thanks. It would be a real help. Anyway - it's being WP:BOLD, we don't WP:OWN the article, etc! TFOWR 06:44, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Just seen the work you've done already at Oman - very nice, and very appreciated. Makes me feel lazy for not having done some of the more obvious MOS stuff. I think I'm going to have to review what you did and steal a few scripts off you... TFOWR 07:11, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Just to add - I think the article is improved enormously by your recent fixes. As TFOWR says, it's one of many articles on my watchlist - one of the reasons being that it sometimes gets "odd" little vandal/POV/joke edits that need reverting. I'm certainly nothing of an expert there. The Gwadar section was like someone had tripped and spilled a box of words while passing through (I know - unfair - probably not English as first language), which is why I got a little involved there.  Begoontalk 07:28, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


If you're not too busy, would you mind changing the ITN entry for Flight 202, since it's rather out of date? Something like "Airblue Flight 202 crashes outside Islamabad, Pakistan. All 152 people aboard are killed, making it the deadliest air disaster in the history of Pakistan" would reflect the developments in the last few hours. Sorry for contacting you personally, but you appear to be online at the moment and there's no real 'updates' section at ITN. Thanks, WackyWace converse | contribs 15:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Looking into it now. Be warned, I've not done any ITN stuff before (though I do keep meaning to...) so I won't be that quick. TFOWR 16:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Dude, it's easy. Just go to Template:In the news, click on edit and search for "Flight 202" in your web browser, and then edit the entry. /HeyMid (contributions) 16:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
There's also the "who's toes am I stepping on? Is there consensus for the change?" questions I need to look into first ;-) I can do many things, but it's not always a good idea for me to do them!
Incidentally, earlier I did something that I thought you might find interesting: I requested an edit to a protected page! Now, obviously I could have just edited the page myself - but I felt it would have been a bad idea for me to do so. It's a similar thing here with ITN: I need to make sure I'm remaining within the bounds laid out by the community. TFOWR 16:13, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Those toes would be mine, but they're quite used to being trodden on. If you split the blurb into two sentences, though, I'll have you desysopped! ;) You might find this useful. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:17, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
While you're here... I'd got as far as ITN/A, and was thinking next step was to head over to WP:ITN/C and propose or request alternative wording? Would that be right? TFOWR 16:19, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Take your time....He he, come on, put the coffee on. Off2riorob (talk) 16:21, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Good advice... I should have followed it! ;-) TFOWR 16:34, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
e/cx4 Things are always easy when you know how. When you don't know how they can be a little more difficult. Jack 1314 (talk) 16:22, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Hooray! I got it in. It doesn't mean much now, but I got it in! :) Jack 1314 (talk) 16:24, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
(ec) There's nothing wrong with tweaking blurbs once they're up. ITN/A deals primarily with adding new items. Just be bold (but don't be reckless and keep it to one sentence!). ITN/C is just for discussion of nominations. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:24, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
...and done! Blimey, that was easy! Thanks, talkpage stalkers! TFOWR 16:29, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Eek! Two sentences! It's WackyWace's fault! I didn't do it! Honest! Suggestions, quick! Help! TFOWR 16:31, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
One sentence now. WP:RECALL awaits... TFOWR 16:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) x3 (TFOWR's fault) ... and you wrote those three messages right before I was going to basically write the same thing. Two edit conflicts in a row. I think the first sentence would've been enough. /HeyMid (contributions) 16:34, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Post-crisis debrief. Well, I did it. I made my first edit to ITN. It wasn't my finest hour, but I did learn the following:

  • I can do it.
  • It can be straightforward.
  • Taking my time, and following Rob's coffee-related advice, would have been sensible.
  • Carefully reading advice provided by more experienced editors is a Good Thing. I should do it.

Have I missed anything?! ;-) TFOWR 16:50, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Only that broken links and two-sentence blurbs are evil! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:55, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict × 1) (I'd, uh, missed the broken link... dammit). The two-sentence blurb I'm including in the "Carefully reading..." one - I needed to carefully read what you told me! I think the big thing I've learned is - don't panic. Like everywhere else, there's no WP:DEADLINE. I should have played around with the blurb in my sandbox (and checked the bloody links apparently!) before posting. I find it odd that I can cheerfully negotiate POV minefields, but when it comes to basic editing I fall over spectacularly...! It's full-protection: it scarifies [sic] my poor brane [sic]! TFOWR 17:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
It's not that scary- I've made over 300 edits to ITN and 40 to DYK as well as plenty of fixes to OTD/TFA/POTD. I've even racked up a dozen edits to the mediawiki namespace! Just use the preview button, take your time and check your links- WP:POPUPS is useful for that. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:14, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

At last recognition, hehe..the stoat is good stuff. Off2riorob (talk) 16:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Don't knock back too much of that dangerously expensive beer - I suspect you may have some work to do preparing for a certain "party". Some of the invitees are suggesting that your proposals be fleshed out... more concrete proposals would always be welcome, anyway, but I get the impression they're not as happy as they could be, and more detail might calm them down. If you catch my drift... If not, ping me by email. TFOWR 17:17, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that :) WackyWace converse | contribs 17:09, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Normally I'd say "no worries" - this time I think I'll just say "no next time"... (just kidding!) ;-) TFOWR 17:17, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I believe there is something in your subconcious that prevents you doing this, TFOWR. I hope you don't mind, but I've set you up with someone I believe may bring your true feeling out about this. No, don't thank me. I just think it's for the best. :) Jack 1314 (talk) 17:15, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I've avoided piling into certain memes so far, but dammit Jack! Next time you use the phrase "set you up with someone" in connection to me, it had better involve the words "she" and either "ginger" or "red head".
Now I need to go and lie down on someone's couch... and not in a good way...! TFOWR 17:22, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
LOL! I'll remember that in future. I know a nice little red head for next time. ;) Jack 1314 (talk) 17:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Problem user (cont'd)

I see that the problem user who adds the POV link to Indian rupee from before has been at it again, this time posting it as (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). Is it also time to have the link he tries to add to be blacklisted? Or should this case be forwarded to WP:AN/I? - 上村七美 (Nanami-chan) | talkback | contribs 22:20, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Aye, I reverted earlier and noticed the latest IP had already been reverted once. It's a persistent blighter, this one! I'm not sure what to do next, to be honest. I'm inclined to wait and possibly protect again (if the IP tries again, which I strongly suspect they will...) However... I'm about to go offline for the night. I'd suggest if the problem user strikes again before I'm back online then raise it at WP:RFPP and I'll do some research in the morning about possible next steps. TFOWR 22:28, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Nothing further seems to have happened, so I'll leave it for now. I do have the article watchlisted, so if "our friend" reappears I'll block or protect as required. This is a very strange thing to be so persistent about...! I think I've mentioned already that I like thge new symbol - and if I like it I'd imagine India is largely happy with it! TFOWR 18:59, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

As i had already mentioned it here that the change is required in context to Symbol Design. Note : Source is picked from Indian National News paper. Copyright : Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, Fair use.Let me know where is the problem with this information ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Internet spider (talkcontribs) 15:47, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that you're adding the same text to multiple articles: at least Rupee (where it is of questionable relevance), Indian rupee (where it is likely WP:UNDUE), to the article about the designer of the new symbol... etc. Also, you're adding it to the lead section - this section is intended to summarise the rest of the article.
Several editors have been "reverting" you - i.e. they have been removing the text you've been adding. Check the "history" of each article (there's a "tab" marked "history" at the top of your browser window) and then look at the edit summaries to see why they've been reverting you.
Also check the talk pages of each article - I've left a comment at Talk:Indian rupee, and other editors have commented at the talk page of the article you recently created.
My view is that if this text belongs anywhere (and I am not convinced yet that it does) then it belongs within the article at Indian rupee sign - i.e. not within the lead section, but within the article itself.
TFOWR 15:56, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

So exposing a corruption is not a big issue for you.. Great .. Do you know what RTI means ?? If not please Google its.. we are taking about Government document here as proof. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Internet spider (talkcontribs) 16:01, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

So exposing a corruption is not a big issue for you That's correct. See WP:SOAPBOX. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a forum for you to air your grievances. TFOWR 16:03, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

WP is to present the fact with out being a government shell... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Internet spider (talkcontribs) 16:05, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

And it can do that without you spamming every tangentially-related article. The "controversy" is about the sign - so do as several editors have suggested and have the text at Indian rupee sign. Not at Rupee (which is about a currency used in several countries), not at Indian rupee (which is about a currency, not a sign) etc. TFOWR 16:08, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

WP:SOAPBOX don't apply here as i am providing newspaper article.. not any private blog.. Your act is highly biased here and unappropriated.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Internet spider (talkcontribs) 16:07, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Here we go again (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has been readding the same "controversial" edits to Indian rupee sign. Just a heads up. - 上村七美 (Nanami-chan) | talkback | contribs 15:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I've semi-protected the page, reverted back to the consensus version, and warned the IP about edit warring. This is getting very tiresome. Given their complaints about "censorship" they clearly do not understand that Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a sopabox for their ranting. TFOWR 16:37, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Hi TFOWR, I appreciate your daily monitoring of the Rupee articles. Also, went through the dialogue at User talk: Nice! Jay (talk) 03:24, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
No worries! I suspect it's probably one or maybe two users behind this, possibly/probably related to the "anti-new-symbol" website. Hopefully our policies and norms will begin to sink in, and they'll understand that it's not a censorship issue so much as a "where they put their views" issue (i.e. a mention at Indian rupee sign is probably OK, spamming it to several different articles is probably not. I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best... TFOWR 07:17, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I forgot to mention this, but the user also apparently did not know that Wikipedia is not a democracy. I know this is a different issue, but it may be related to what being discussed here. - 上村七美 (Nanami-chan) | talkback | contribs 16:42, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Heh! I'm not sure if that would help - they seem to believe that the views of multiple experienced Wikipedians count for nothing when compared to the view of one disgruntled agitator. I've not noticed their "targets" on my watchlist in the last day or two, but I've been busy offline - have they returned again?! TFOWR 17:24, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

From a concerned wikipedian

Hi, TFOWR. I have noticed that you don't often take a wee break from this place, even when you say you are going to. Were you like this before you were an admin or do you feel you need to be around a little more often now that you are. I imagine it would be difficult to refuse any requests when you are new to the bit. I ask because I'd hate to see a good editor taking a nervous breakdown. ;) Jack 1314 (talk) 09:56, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi Jack! Fair point. Partly it's because I'm working from home at the moment, so I can keep one browser open and dedicated to Wikipedia, while doing my regular work. There's a thread above where I (a) mention that I plan to take one week off admin work once a month - I have another two days to go before my "admin-break" is due to start ;-) - and (b) I was going to take a short wikibreak yesterday (I did succeed, kind of, in the end...) (Incidentally, in that same thread I said that I had worked out an emergency plan with you to remain online in the event that my Internet connection goes down completely - the emergency plan involves signal fires in my back-close - I "may" have neglected to mention this to you, so keep an eye out for smoke signals coming from the South Side area ;-)
...but it's a good point - I will need to, and will, take a break in the next couple of days. Thanks for the nudge: it prompted me to check my calenadar! I'll stick up a "Wikibreak" template on this talkpage in a few minutes.
TFOWR 10:08, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I live very close to the Clyde and have easy access to the roof, so I should spot your smoke signals nae bother. :) Jack 1314 (talk) 10:16, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
No need to for the 10 days or so - I've announced my holiday plans ;-) TFOWR 10:21, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm warming up my userpage vandalism accordingly LOL (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:26, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Should I change my plans and head off to Canada - with a large fish?! TFOWR 10:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Even larger fish aquatic animals are available for that purpose, if you can get them past customs ;) sonia♫♪ 10:52, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
My father was on nightly fire watch in the area when he was a student at the Veterinary School back in the 40s so I can claim an inherited duty in respect of smoke signals --Snowded TALK 10:45, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 ;-) Here's hoping my phone company pull their socks up and sort this out - 3G is a right pain.
While you're here, it occurs to me that Black Kite is also away, until much the same time as I return. I'll have a think about "admin coverage" at WT:BISE, but if you've any suggestions "fire" away (sorry!). TFOWR 10:49, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Sleep? Who needs stinkin' sleep? I hope you have submitted your CA 216 'Leave Request Forms' in Quadriplicate! Besides, HJ will still be here! Face-wink.svg -- 220.101 (talk) \Contribs 13:20, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
No, no, no! The protocol has changed. You mean the "CA 216 (revised) A/7/3 (July-Sept. version) - tagged 'blue/42'". Not submitted yet (I've been waiting for HJ to stamp it) but the signed-and-dated photographs have been logged, my doctor's report has been accepted, and my essay "I deserve a break from Wikpedia because..." earned a gold star! TFOWR 17:08, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I had my (mostly) one month break! yay España. I'm excited to go home and huggle more and relax from the hawt sun. :x Tommy! [message] 17:12, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

The vandals are, however, much less excited! Good to have you back (and I wish I was seeing some of that hawt sun - I'm staying on the same island, albeit going to a slightly different country). TFOWR 17:27, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Meh, I like the accent, mate. Tommy! [message] 17:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Unrelated question: autoblock

I apologize for hijacking your talk again, but I needed an online admin for a quick question. What would happen if I indeffed someone, and left autoblock on so that the IP was also blocked? Would the IP also be indeffed? (Enjoy the holiday away from Wikipedia- it works wonders!) sonia♫♪ 10:28, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

No need to apologize: everyone is welcome here, and you especially!
I'm not an expert on autoblocks, so I've just had to brush up on them at Wikipedia:Autoblock. One thing I didn't know before is that there's a time limit on autoblocks - they reset after 24 hours. Obviously that will affect different users in different ways - I'm on a static IP address, so I'd be screwed ;-) A user on a dynamic IP address would likely be fine, but the autoblock would potentially affect other users. TFOWR 10:41, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Great, thanks! I just wondered- because if a vandal using a static public network (say, a library) was indeffed, a corresponding indef autoblock would be ridiculous. Glad that it isn't. sonia♫♪ 10:52, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


Please restore my user page or e-mail me the contents. I give you my word that I will not recreate the article for at least 3 months and ONLY if there is a major improvement which would change minds.

Note that I did not re-create the page but had it there BEFORE the AFD was decided.

Also, please read User talk:LessHeard vanU and if you will agree to all the terms, you may do the blocking. I request self block under the terms that I mentioned. MVOO (talk) 00:01, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) As I noted at ANI, I'm prepared to consider restoring the deleted userpage: but I do want to run it past the deleting admin (HJ) first as a courtesy. I have not looked at the deleted userpage, so I make no promises. If it turned out that the deleted page was - say - a blatant copyvio I wouldn't restore it (I'm not saying that's the case, and I suspect someone would have mentioned it already if it was the case, I'm just warning you that I will need to give the same consideration to this case as I'd give to any case where I was restoring deleted content).
Incidentally, please accept my apologies re: re-creating the page: I realise now that you copied it to your userpage before the AfD had closed.
I'm not comfortable performing a block in this instance, sorry. I know that some admins do do this, and it is something I'd consider when I had more experience, but for now I'm not prepared to do it. I'd recommend waiting until LessHeard van U is online - if for no other reason than it will give you a chance to reconsider ;-)
TFOWR 00:09, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


Oh no, I didn't think that way at all. You were not familiar with the long history of trouble, edit warring, sock-puppeteering, and vandalism in Afghanistan article. From the beginning when the IP started to edit and when he wrote a long text in the talk page, I knew it was a scokpuppet, and that's why I couldn't keep my patience and calmness for the discussion as I knew it was just a waste of time for me. You were neutral and you did what you had to do. Thanks for your concern for writing me a short note. Ariana (talk) 07:50, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi Ariana! I think you may have me confused with Begoon (talk · contribs) - I commented very briefly at ANI, but that's about it. I have been posting quite a lot on Begoon's talkpage, and I know that Begoon refactored a lot of threads there yesterday, so it's possible my signature got attached to a comment Begoon made.
Having said that, and I've not checked, I suspect I would agree with anything Begoon said - I noticed the SPI report you filed, and that it had revealed a great deal of sock puppet activity. I must admit the thought had crossed my mind when the IP posted at ANI - the only thing that did surprise me was that the sock master was someone quite new to me. If Begoon said something like that then I fully agree with them! (But I'll look into it in more detail later - just in case Begoon said something entirely different!)
TFOWR 08:12, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I am sorry, I wanted to drop this to User:Begoon's page, but I have no idea how I ended up here on your page!! (lol). It was a reply to his note. Sorry for the confusion :) Ariana (talk) 09:07, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


Hello, TFOWR. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Off2riorob (talk) 09:01, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

My, that's an impressive looking template! I'll check me email... TFOWR 09:03, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Nothing yet... TFOWR 09:08, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
It is a cool template, and even for my addled brain matter...easy to commit to memory. I sent it first class, it should be along shortly. Off2riorob (talk) 09:10, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I quite deliberately made sure there were no tricky parameters, because remembering {{TAG|param1=arg1|param2=arg2}} is hard. Also, I'm too stupid to write tricky template code... ;-) TFOWR 09:15, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Received, replied (and I need a template for that, too!) TFOWR 09:43, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


...incoming. - NeutralhomerTalk • 09:04, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

<ahem!> {{User:TFOWR/Ygm}} (see thread above). Sheesh! I go to all that trouble and folk still alert me to email in ye olde-fashioned way... ;-) TFOWR 09:06, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Happy holiday on Saturday! /HeyMid (contributions) 09:07, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Thanks! TFOWR 09:12, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Nothing yet... TFOWR 09:12, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Didn't see that template. I sent it (and already got the copy I always get back for archiving) about 10 minutes ago to your Wikipedia email account (whatever that one is). - NeutralhomerTalk • 09:23, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
For some reason it always takes ages for me to receive email (and, equally, when I send email thru' Wikipedia it always takes ages to arrive). No idea why that might be the case... I'm thinking of creating a few related templates for "not arrived yet", "getting really concerned now - still not got it!" and "Never mind, it's just fallen into my inbox!" ;-) TFOWR 09:27, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Do you have Gmail? I find it is super fast at getting emails through. Yahoo much slower and while I haven't used Hotmail (ever), friends say it is just as a slow as Yahoo sometimes. - NeutralhomerTalk • 09:31, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm afraid so! ;-) TFOWR 09:35, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────...and Gmail is slow for you? Wow, then that must be your tubes getting all borked. - NeutralhomerTalk • 09:40, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) I use Gmail for my Wikipedia account, and sometimes I find my Yahoo gets the forwarded copy before the Gmail copy even shows up, so it's not just TFOWR here... :P sonia♫♪ 09:45, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Odd, I have had Gmail for a year+ now and found it nothing but fast. Guess it is just me. Maybe Google likes me or something? :) - NeutralhomerTalk • 09:52, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Another editor has mentioned that Thunderbird formats wikilinks. I'm going to give Thunderbird another go one of these days, no real reason for me to stick to GMail. TFOWR 09:59, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Ah, I didn't know that was a email client, I thought it was another browser type thing. Learning two somethings. - NeutralhomerTalk • 10:06, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Meh, I'm not fond of Thunderbird. <offtopic>But there are compact, run-from-pen-drive versions of both Firefox and Thunderbird, the entire OpenOffice suite, Skype, and just about everything else a computer needs- I'm going to buy a bigger pen drive that can fit a small OS as well, and then I've got my computer on the run! :) sonia♫♪ 10:12, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Received, replied. (Aye, my tubes are particularly bad right now, but I've had email issues since before my current connection problems). TFOWR 09:44, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
    • Just threw back a reply. - NeutralhomerTalk • 09:52, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Possible closure...

9 days - Off2riorob (talk) 12:03, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Will do in a second. The other day I had a handy "close this XfD button", but it seems to have disappeared (no bad thing - the one time I actually used it I made a right mess of the AfD I was closing...) Anyway - off to close it now, it looks straightforward even for an idiot. TFOWR 13:55, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
...and done. For the record, the consensus was to delete, which I have done. There's a talkpage, which I've left, with a note to drop me a line here or stick a {{db-user}} tag on it. TFOWR 14:08, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I have one of those close AFD buttons, its a monobook code but I don't think there is an similar tool for closing MFD. Thanks for closing that anyways. Off2riorob (talk) 15:03, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Ah, that'll be it - I assumed it closed any XfD. Anyway, no worries - it was a straightforward one. If it had been contentious I'd have punted it, but that was a pretty obvious consensus. TFOWR 15:06, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

How to?

delete a vulgarity?? [2] Help please. Make it go away. ;-) DocOfSoc (talk) 14:03, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think I can touch it, to be honest. It's pretty disgusting but it would fall into the "regular disgusting vandalism" category, which we're not supposed to delete or oversight (not that I can oversight, anyway, but oversight is basically like an even stronger version of the "revision delete" stuff I can do): all we can do is revert it. I would only be allowed to delete vandalism like this it if it disparaged an individual. Sorry, I know that's not the answer you were hoping for but until/unless the community decides to get really tough on vandalism my actions are limited. TFOWR 14:12, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Having said that, any mop-wielding talkpage stalkers like to correct me? Am I right here? TFOWR 14:13, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I concur, it's simple vandalism with no particular target. Doesn't need to be revDel'd. –xenotalk 14:15, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

OK TYVM! Gross tho. Always happy to see you here... Namaste...DocOfSoc (talk) 14:16, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Aww! I came strolling by here without a mop (not stalking, you can get arrested for that) and I can't even give an opinion? Well, I'm going to anyway (flinches). I've never seem anything other than a personal attack or an outing be oversighted. There, I'll run off now and hope no one blocks me for my cheek. ;) Jack 1314 (talk) 14:22, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Broadly true, though I'd add that we can WP:REVDEL edits if, say, an editor posted while logged out, exposing their username and IP address. (They'd need to ask me, though - many editors, myself included, simply don't mind about revealing their IP addresses). Actually, I rev-deleted an edit of mine earlier, because I'd stuck my email address in a post, then realised how extremely stupid that was ;-) TFOWR 14:28, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Imagine all the real stalkers you would have if you didn't revdel it. I'm pleased I was broadly correct but I did leave an edit summary to cover myself. :) Jack 1314 (talk) 14:38, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Mopless but by no means clueless! I thought it was worth clarifying, however, because (a) it shows me at my idiotic finest ;-) and (b) it "advertises a service I'm willing to provide" - if you ever make a mistake like this (posting while signed-out, posting your own email address, etc) you probably want to avoid WP:ANI so posting here may be a better option. Emailing me (and using {{User:TFOWR/Ygm}}, naturally!) is probably an even better option. TFOWR 14:43, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Shamelessly plugging your new template I see! I was going to say that that edit shouldn't be RevDel'd, but I got an edit conflict with Xeno who said the same thing. ;) HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:51, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Sneaks in, looking innocent... This {{User:TFOWR/Ygm}} template? No, I just {{User:TFOWR/Ygm}} casually mentioned it in {{User:TFOWR/Ygm}} passing! ;-) TFOWR 14:56, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

LOVE the Barnstars!! Nap time for me. Namaste....DocOfSoc (talk) 16:00, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I can't take credit - that goes to Bwilkins, I just stole them! (Well, I did get awarded the barnstars, but the design was Bwilkins) - before I stole their design, I was using the full-size barnstars, and my old userpage was a mess! (Some might say[who?] that my new userpage isn't much better, but that's another matter...!) TFOWR 16:05, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

On Activism

You wrote, in the Requested Move for Circumcision: "I'm not an activist, but I am concerned about any attempt - whether deliberate or inadvertent - to dilute "female genital mutilation" further, by equating it with circumcision."[3] I'm not sure if you realize it but that is actually pretty much the definition of Wikipedia activism. You state your personal concerns about the topic instead of addressing the sources brought by those opposite your view. Or are you just as concerned about attempts, deliberate or inadvertent, to create an artificial (according to those holding the view) distinction between common forms of male circumcision and uncommon forms (milder forms) of "female genital mutilation" or "female genital cutting" or female circumcision? Blackworm (talk) 05:59, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Give it a rest, Blackworm. That was one minor tongue-in-cheek comment at the end of two long and acrimonious debates, in which my comments appeared to be understandable by most participants, but not be you (see the digression about "true female circumcision" [sic] for an example). "Circumcision" is the most widely used term, and it's neutral, and doesn't require disambiguation. "Female genital mutilation" is the most widely used term, we use a more neutral alternative, and it too doesn't require disambiguation. "Uncircumcised" is not pejorative. Usage changes of time, and society's use of these terms may too. When it does, then I'll worry. Until then, not so much. Short of remembering to bracket any non-obvious comment within gigantic, flashing "this is subtle humour" signs I'm really not sure how I can improve in future. So... do you have a concern about a current issue that I can help you with? Or can I get on with my life? TFOWR 08:07, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps you should indeed go flag it as humour. I do not believe anyone recognized that you were only jokingly engaging in using Wikipedia for activism against the current meaning of a word, transforming it into a different, ethnocentric meaning that other activists prefer. Blackworm (talk) 08:24, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Blackworm, that thread's finished. I'm unaware of anyone but you who didn't notice the similarity of my post to the one that preceded it, and that includes the non-involved editor who closed the move request. TFOWR 08:29, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I see absolutely no evidence of that. Further, the preceding post discussed sources; yours discussed your opinions about the topic. Blackworm (talk) 08:34, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
As you wish. You can go and heckle the closing editor, if you want, and see what their thoughts are. You can go and re-read the entire thread, and see if I address more pertinent issues elsewhere in the thread. But this thread - it's not going anywhere. You're not going to turn back time and make me change my !vote. I'd suggest if you're not able to move on you at least find an alternative talkpage to complain on. TFOWR 08:40, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I have no idea why you would think I have any issue with the closing admin. Blackworm (talk) 08:51, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I was responding to your "I see absolutely no evidence of that" comment. Maybe you see no evidence of something else. To be honest, I don't really care. Debate is fun, but we've both - I'm sure - got more important things to do. So... do you have a concern about a current issue that I can help you with? Or can I get on with my life? TFOWR 08:56, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I still see no evidence that everyone but me "noticed" the similarity between your post I linked and the previous one. I'm sorry if you see this as some kind of bothersome thing, but it seems we have yet to find a consensus on the issue discussed, that is the title of the circumcision article. I was hoping to help move toward a consensus on that issue by pointing out what your reasoning sounds like to me, and getting clarification. But if you feel you do not wish to discuss this issue further, that is your prerogative of course. Blackworm (talk) 02:03, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
You're asking me to prove a negative there, Blackworm - I replied to a post, using similar words, similar remarks to the post I was replying to. I thought it would be obvious to anyone reading my reply that (a) my reply was a reply to the post I was replying to and (b) the near-identical phrases used would be spotted. No-one but you has commented on this, so, short of asking everyone involved (which you can do if you wish, but I really don't intend to waste my time on), I have to assume that everyonemost people spotted the similarities.
By all means open a new thread at Talk:Circumcision - that will give a wide group of editors the chance to participate. But I don't feel there's a great deal of value having that debate here: this talkpage is most useful to the community if it can be used to address me, my actions as an editor and as an admin, and issues that I might be able to assist with. This issue is far wider than that - it's an issue properly addressed to the wider community, at Talk:Circumcision (yet again) or taken to WP:DR. TFOWR 06:53, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Non admin question

Hi again, TFOWR. I've been doing a little work on the article Forteviot Bronze Age tomb on which Dai has been most helpful with refs and such. I'm no great article builder so would like a little advice. In this section do you think there is a need to use italics when quoting the head of Historic Scotland. There has been no prior discussion on this but thought I'd get the rights and wrongs of using italics in quotes. Thanks. Jack 1314 (talk) 19:47, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:MOSQUOTE#Italics_and_quotations ;-) Basically - don't do it. The quotation marks are sufficient for a short quote: this is kind-of-short-enough, but once you've removed the italics, you could use {{Quotation}} to tart it up a bit:

The fact that this important individual was buried at a location which we know was one of the main power centres in the country almost 3000 years later is remarkable, but it is far too early to decide if this is coincidence or continuity.

— Dr Noel Fojut
Using {{quotation|The fact that this important individual was buried at a location which we know was one of the main power centres in the country almost 3000 years later is remarkable, but it is far too early to decide if this is coincidence or continuity.|Dr Noel Fojut}} to format it. How's that ;-) TFOWR 19:56, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
...and I was worried you were here to check me for this ;-) TFOWR 19:59, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
My brain isn't working and my head hurts! I can't get it to do what I want and you've deleted your saltire! Not sure if I can cope now. sob! sob! sob! Jack 1314 (talk) 20:10, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
  1. What do you want it to do, and can I help?!
  2. OK, the Saltire has gone, but Maclean did establish the SWRP which was, I believe (the article doesn't say), the first party to advocate Scottish independence. (Albeit a "Scottish Workers' Republic", rather than the bland nonsense Holyrood offers ;-) (I'm not a huge fan, but he's an interesting part of Glasgow's history). TFOWR 20:15, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Sniff sniff. I'm alright now. ;) I was just going to get rid of the italics but couldn't for the life of me use your suggestion for the {{quotation}}. Old age catching up with me (that's my excuse anyway). Did you know, TFOWR, that Scotland were on the verge of getting Home rule passed in parliament only for the first world war to break out? Most of the young men that argued for home rule then were alas lost to the war. Jack 1314 (talk) 20:55, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I could do the quotation stuff if you want? I'm trying to avoid starting anything new and big, so that would be a good way to avoid looking at problematic areas where I might feel obliged to commit myself to something that takes too long, and interferes with my holiday plans! I knew a bit about Irish home rule, but didn't realise Scotland was so close? Maclean was anti-war - he was sent to Peterhead and force-fed for his anti-war/free-speech campaigns around Glasgow. Reason I've got a bit of a Maclean thing going on is that another south-sider, Alistair Hulett died recently and I've been digging through my record collection (I knew his music mostly for the Aussie stuff, so discovering his album "Red Clydesiders" was a really pleasant surprise). He was SWP, though, so politically I don't have a great deal in common... Anyway... let me know if you want me to try and {{quotation}} the Forteviot Bronze Age tomb. TFOWR 20:38, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
TFOWR, if anything will interfere with your holiday please don't do it. I'd feel like crap if it did. If it would only tale a mo it would be nice of you, otherwise, just don't. I don't deal well with guilt. ;) Jack 1314 (talk) 20:43, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
No, no, no, you misunderstand ;-) - this would help. It should be quick, and it'll help keep me out of trouble. All the time I spend checking my watchlist I run the risk of seeing something that will disrupt plans. Big nasty stuff that'll occupy me for days - that's what I want to avoid ;-) I have big nasty stuff I do need to wrap up for a week (WT:BISE) but apart from that I want small bite-sized chunks to keep me from finding a new horror! TFOWR 20:47, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Ah! That's grand then. Thought I was getting you into more work than you needed. If you could do that for me I would be eternally grateful. Jack 1314 (talk) 20:51, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Done! I used {{quote}} instead - {{quotation}} didn't work quite as I expected (and not as it worked here... weird). I think it looks OK, but I'm not a good judge of stuff like this. What do you think? TFOWR 21:08, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I think it looks great. Yer a wee champion TFOWR. I think I'll be retiring for the night, this has all been too much for my poor wee heart. I do talk like an 80 year old, don't I? ;) Jack 1314 (talk) 21:13, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
You don't, are you really 80ish? Then again, the 80 year olds I know talk like the rest of us, so what do I know! (I know an ex-Ravenscraig 80ish guy who's arguably slightly more English-English than most of the youngsters - and even some of the genuine English folk (but lived in Glasgow for decades) that I know. Heart problems? Seems to affect the youngsters more - too much hard living, not enough hard working ;-) TFOWR 21:20, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
50 going on 80 somedays and 50 going on 30 other days. It's all in the mind as my old ma used to say to me. Jack 1314 (talk) 21:24, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Ah! Got it. I'm somewhere between 20 and 70 then! ;-) TFOWR 21:26, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I'll be in my twenties tomorrow no doubt so if you feel like being in your twenties tomorrow we could go up the dancin and you could pick up that red head you were talking of previously. ;) Anyway, this is for you for all the help you've given me today and before. Jack 1314 (talk) 21:40, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

"What a Brilliant Idea!" Barnstar.png What a Brilliant Idea Barnstar
for coming up with a great idea and helping me out when I was flummoxed Jack 1314 (talk) 21:41, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Heh, my age varies through the day - I'm youngest around mid-day ;-) Right now I'll feel quite old and slow, but the caffeine will work it's magic in a few hours...!

Many thanks for the barnstar - I don't feel I deserve it (just helping out, which I'd do anyway) but I'll be adding it to my collection regardless! It also reminds me that I'm very poor at doling out barnstars - I'm up to a grand total of two (one plus two halves...) which is exceptionally poor when you consider that I'm an idiot and smart people help me all the time... Note to self: remember to thank people! TFOWR 06:58, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Ok, so let's have a dialogue :)

For continuity, copying and pasted from your unprotected talk page:

Why can't you just stop blocking me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:49, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Per [4] I will not make any edits for 29 hours 50 minutes, then I shall return to this page in good faith. (talk) 20:40, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Hey, if you behave yourself when you return maybe no one will notice that you're back 11 days early... TFOWR 20:50, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Ok, I gave it a bit longer for decorum. So... how to best resolve this? I'm a fan of Getting to YES, so how about we mutually adopt the approach there? My interests are a major and a minor - the major is being allowed to banter with Bugs (subject to his consent) - the minor is that I am not identified as a Light Currant sock - as I 100% am not. Promise.
I won't be so rude as to presume what your interests are. Instead I shall ask... so what are your interests in this?
Cheers :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 02:34, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
My interests are in preventing disruption. For reasons I don't fully understand Baseball Bugs' talkpage is a magnet for all kinds of unsavoury, disruptive posts, and I'm one of many people who have their talkpage watchlisted as a result. Your posts appeared nearly identical to posts by a banned former editor - leading to the not unreasonable conclusion that either you are Light current or you are impersonating Light current. I'd recommend avoiding Bugs' talkpage and focussing on productive work to build the encyclopaedia - that way no one will make the connection, and you won't be blocked again. Easy! TFOWR 07:04, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Sort of a "ping" as promised...

Thanks for your concern - I promised to "ping" you, so here it is.

I'll just say what I've said to others who asked, really (sorry it's a cut/paste job but same answer...):

I just felt very jaded and disillusioned in general, and then a couple of remarks/actions rubbed me up the wrong way, so I did a little stomp.

On reflection, and after reading some messages I got, I decided that retiring was over the top, and a silly reaction, so I'm going to just cut back a bit on the time I spend here instead, and see how that goes. After all, where would be the fun in anonymity if we couldn't stomp off in a silly tantrum, because we got worked up about what was said/done on a website, then come back after some sleep feeling we made some sort of point?

It's all good, really... :-)  Begoontalk 02:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

No worries about the cut-and-paste, I understand and it cheers me up - and hopefully cheers you up - that so many people raised it with you that your responses had to be cut-and-pasted ;-)
Wikibreaks. I can't say that strongly enough. This place does get us down - it's harder work than we realise. Cutting down time spent here seems sensible, but I'd also suggest trying to work in different areas? Take a few pages off your watchlist, add a few new ones, etc. I don't know which areas in particular have got you down, but I know, for example, that some of the pages you work on are a POV nightmare (I'm thinking about the whole Arabian Gulf/Persian Gulf nonsense, which, incidentally, I saw crop up just yesterday after a period of inactivity). That's just an example, but I know it's an example that changes fun (improving, say, Dubai) to not fun (getting bogged down explaining basic policies to editors who really don't care about anything other than their own narrow agenda).
Anyway - I'm glad you've reconsidered! You're too good an editor to allow to retire ;-)
And my offer still stands - if there's anything I can do, ever, let me know. "A problem shared is a problem halved", etc...!
TFOWR 07:11, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

User:Pathare Prabhu/Pathare Prabhu Community's Ancient links

I wish you very happy holidays. I am putting this note to inform you that above given article has been restored and ready for editing as Empty Buffer had recommended. He has put notice on his talk page that he is about to leave this Wikipedia so I am worried. Please you help me now. Pathare Prabhu (talk) 06:44, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Protection request

Hey, could you protect {{Eurovision countries}} for me? There were two articles published (one in Oikotimes, one in ESCToday) about Liechtenstein's participation. Oikotimes blatently misleads the reader into thinking they are definetly in, while ESCToday says there are good chances since an application for membership has been submitted. However, neither article actually confirms the country's participation in the contest. They merely state that if the application is granted (which it may or may not be) they would like to participate. As of now they are still ineligible. Thanks. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 15:41, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Done (semi-protection, three days). Though I'd add that the most recent "speculator" is auto-confirmed - and I've personally warned them about this nonsense before - so I don't know if it'll be that effective. I'm maybe a bit too involved to do much more (though to be honest I've not touched any of the Eurovision pages for a while now) so it might be better trying at WP:RFPP if you think longer protection is warranted - but give the three days a go and see how it pans out, it may be that the enthusiasm for adding a future country to the list of current participants wears off... TFOWR 15:51, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. I blame irresponsible Oikotimes for this madness. The title is "Liechtenstein will debut in Eurovision 2011" but then the first sentence says "it's almost certain" and that they have submitted a request for membership in the EBU. It's quite a jump to say they have submitted the application so they will definetly be participating. They would still have to be accepted, then apply for the contest and probably jump through a few more hoops. As far as I can see it is a longshot. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 16:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Heh! Did we ever decide whether Oikotimes was reliable or not? I remember a debate about its reliability but can't recall what the outcome was. In this instance, it's nonsense anyway - even if Liechtenstein were confirmed participants for 2011 they'd still be a future participant, not a current participant. TFOWR 16:57, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
There wasn't much support for it if I remember, but it wasn't decided that it was a poor source. I believe the community decided to use it for non-controversial material only. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 17:19, 30 July 2010 (UTC)==

Triton back to old tricks

Just in case you are around - two breeches of sanction this morning. Reported here. Your friendly local prefect reporting. --Snowded TALK 06:01, 31 July 2010 (UTC)


Compass barnstar.png The Guidance Barnstar
I saw this edit and it was well written. wiooiw (talk) 10:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much! I think that this may be the second barnstar I've received for that post - but it's no less welcome (and reminds me that posts like that are one thing I'm keen to do more of, and to encourage other editors to do likewise).

I feel quite strongly that enthusiastic editors should be encouraged - too often we let disruptive vandals get away with too much, while condemning good faith editors. Hopefully your barnstar will serve to remind me to help good editors more, and worry about bad editors less! TFOWR 10:15, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Sections created at BISE - can you summarize and close

Hi, I've broken up the long-winded section into 4 separate sections as per your suggestion. If you get a chance before your hols, can you take a look and summarize/close/comment as appropriate. Thank you. --HighKing (talk) 17:59, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I will do, thanks. It wasn't so much a suggestion as an admission of blatant laziness, by the way ;-)
I'll leave the new sections for a couple of days - it gives folk (including any that might, say, be temporarily blocked...) a chance to spot any stuff that got missed in the move to the new sections. I've learned the hard way that it's best not to rush these things. I'll still be online midday Monday (don't leave until mid-afternoon). TFOWR 18:04, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Need an Admin Opinion

Could you take a look at this ANI thread. I closed it with the shown collapse top/bottom message. Delicious carbuncle, who started the thread, reopened it and started one on me. I responded, but an not about to get into a pissing match with DC again, per this, I am walking away. Would you mind taking a look at the thread and see if it does or does not need closed? Thanks. - NeutralhomerTalk • 23:42, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I think that walking away is exactly the right thing to do. You've explained why you closed the thread (I think the close was sensible - too much noise, the original issues were settled, etc), Jehochman has commented, but it looks like they don't intend to anything more than express their annoyance at you, and you've explained why you'd forgotten the earlier (seven months earlier) warning from Jehochman. In my view, and, I suspect in Jehochman's view, seven months is a long time and it's understandable that you'd have forgotten.
Having said all that - blimey! You need to start maintaining your own list! I'd suggest sticking it on a subpage not linked to from anywhere obvious like your userpage, and get into the habit of checking it before posting anywhere contentious like ANI.
Someone else could have closed this (and did, in the end): in much the same way as "someone" will create an article about a notable subject - it's not necessary for the subject themselves to do so - "someone" will (if appropriate) close threads like this. In this case HandThatFeeds (talk) has closed the first two sub-threads, leaving the "DC blocked" and "Coda" sub-threads. I think that's probably appropriate under the circumstances: LessHeard vanU (talk) invited review, and should be held to account (I am definitely not saying that LHvU acted inappropriately: simply that they invited review of their block). Likewise, your closing of "Coda" should be examined (though, again, I think closing was appropriate, but the community should have the chance to consider the closer).
I suspect at this point the thread will probably die a quiet death as we all ignore it. That'll certainly be helped if you walk away and ignore it too. If the "coda" thread continues, and if you wanted to bring about a swifter resolution you could post a short comment along the lines of "While I stand by the decision to close I accept that I was perhaps the wrong person to close, and for that I apologise to Jehochman and the community." TFOWR 07:59, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Just a clarification to what you wrote, the "Coda" thread was started after the "un-closing" of the threads, I wouldn't (and know I shouldn't) close a thread about myself started by someone else.
As to everything else, I would welcome anyone (admin perferably, since they have access to all this stuff) to make a list of my prior instructions and put it in my userspace. I would link it to my userpage for full disclosure. I actually recommended that on the "Coda" discussion. If you want, you could do it, since you will have access to all the links to my unblocks and their discussions that lead to them. That way, I can look, see what I can and can't do and go from there. - NeutralhomerTalk • 08:12, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Aye, I understood that - the "Coda" thread was a complaint about you closing the previous ones: I realise you hadn't closed it ;-) I'll start digging through your block log (I'm slightly disappointed that it's even more impressive than mine...!) and compile a list. TFOWR 08:24, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, that's a page I am not proud of. When you do get everything complied and in place, just place it at User:Neutralhomer/Restrictions and I will link to my userpage on the top menu. Take your time with it, it isn't something that has to be done right away. Please leave a note on my talk page that you have completed it, as this might get buried on my watchlist before I get up (going to bed soon). Thanks again...NeutralhomerTalk • 08:46, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm taking a look now, but there's a lot (!) of AN and ANI stuff to wade through ;-) Today is pretty much my last day online for a while, and I'm not going to be around all day either, so I may need to email you with what I've got and let you sort out the wheat from the chaff. TFOWR 08:50, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Hopefully just a Wikibreak, we are losing too many good users around here. No worries on the email. I can take it from there. Yeah, from my older days, I racked up ALOT of ANI/ANI posts. Again, not something I am proud of. - NeutralhomerTalk • 09:02, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Aye, scheduled holiday with family. Back next weekend (and probably/possibly online during the week, just really not much). TFOWR 09:04, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Ah, good :) Just didn't want to lose another editor/admin. Been losing far too many of those lately and good ones too. - NeutralhomerTalk • 09:09, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Please note that I have split the subthread off into its own thread so that the original discussions may be closed. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 12:07, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

...and I posted this. *sigh* - NeutralhomerTalk • 12:09, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Have Fun

Hope you have fun on your vacation or as you all say, holiday. Bring me back something. :) - NeutralhomerTalk • 12:36, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Milk deliveries have been cancelled, house keys have been left with neighbours

Everyone on this list gets a key ;-)

OK, I'm almost ready to jet off on me holidays. I'll maybe be around briefly tomorrow morning, but after that I'm offline (more or less) until Friday night (6 August) (and probably Monday morning if I'm realistic).

There's been a spot of vandalism to my userpage recently - I semi-protected it yesterday for 15 minutes or so. There's been more today (Thanks to Favonian (talk) and Tide rolls (talk) for catching that - first I knew of it was after the responsible party had been shown the door) so I've fully-protected most pages in my userspace for one week. Obvious exception for this talkpage, which I hope you'll all be able to keep an eye on. (There are a few other exceptions, too - things that other people might use and need to edit).

I'm sure it doesn't need saying but: I will not consider it wheel-warring if you change or remove protection on anything in my userspace.

I'll miss you guys! ;-)

TFOWR 12:38, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Feeling is mutual—and only slightly tinged with envy. Remember the sunscreen! Assuming you are not going to Denmark. Favonian (talk) 12:41, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
England - I suspect the need for sunscreen will be on a par with Denmark... ;-) TFOWR 19:10, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Have fun and enjoy the break- I'm sure it'll work wonders for your stress levels! :) sonia♫♪ 12:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Breaks are indeed wonderful things. We'll try not to turn the joint upside down before you return. Tiderolls 18:16, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Have a nice holiday. When are you leaving? Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:06, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Well, not until Monday afternoon (UTC, obviously), but I've got a lot of preparation to do (packing, cleaning, buying last minute presents...) so I figured I'd warn people not to expect me to be about from - well, from yesterday, really! (As you can see, I've not been very successful in starting my wikibreak early...) TFOWR 19:10, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
It never happens until you actually lock the door behind you. I was in England for a week at Christmas, and I'm sure my contribs will show I was working here until the day we left. Once I walked out the door I didn't think about Wikipedia at all, and when we returned, stayed away from the computer for a few days. Don't fight it now, but have a great time when you're gone! Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:38, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
As you leave the house and hear a faint cry from your computer, don't leave me, TFOWR, don't leave! I can't do anything without you! It would mean you are actually going mad and therefore you really do need a holiday, or someones playing a trick on you. Either way, close that door behind you and run. ;) Jack 1314 (talk) 19:47, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
If I find out you've hacked my computer, Jack, or that you're hiding in my close playing a trick on me, I'll...! TFOWR 22:19, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
I'll have to hurry if I'm going to find the right one! There are thousands and thousands of closes. Damn! I never thought this one through. Jack 1314 (talk) 22:25, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

This might amuse you

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fictional Scots. Something to read if you can't resist the temptation to log into WP! ;) HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:17, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm currently "failing to resist" ;-) ...and I'm off to peruse an AfD now...! TFOWR 14:19, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Heh! I'm so not touching that: A Kiwi, living in Scotland? I just wish I was Jewish just to fit in with all the examples used. I guess I'm never going to be fictional, though... Not !voting, not closing, but keeping it on my watchlist! It'll be interesting to see how it ends: it seems to be "no consensus" at the moment, with a formal close imminent. I really do pity the poor soul who has to clo... wait - you weren't thinking you'd close it? Run away! Run away fast! TFOWR 14:37, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Update: it was Fetchcomms, and it was no consensus. Dammit, wish I'd popped down to Ladbrokes... TFOWR 22:16, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
No consensus is about right and hell no! I don't get paid nearly enough to read through all of that, never mind close the damn thing! ;) HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:45, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Move request

Section moved to User talk:HJ Mitchell#Move request. /HeyMid (contributions) 10:38, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


Hope you are having a wonderful holiday. TY for thinking of me per your note. I just had an enforced holiday, had oral surgery. I am fine but made some hilarious edits while on super pain meds! I "holiday" about as well as... pick a name LOL I appreciate you and will be forever grateful that you found me redheaded self ;-) Take care. "Cya" soon! Namaste!...DocOfSoc (talk) 09:42, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


Hi TFOWR. A couple of brief questions - if you haven't time to respond, no worries. (1) That "Unresolved" graphic you put in Arts and Crafts - is that some sort of official declaration or just your own cool logo thing? Sorry if I'm being dense, just haven't seen it before. (2) Is it right that TritonRocker has dumped that big list of participants (originally complete with miscellaneous insults!) in the page - isn't it up to individual editors to add themselves to participant lists? Thanks for any help. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 13:06, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Nah, it's just a note that I haven't finished there yet ;-) I suppose I could have just left it alone, but it tells you all that I didn't miss it, and do intend to revisit it later.
I've seen the list (pre- and post-cleaning), and I've seen the cute userboxes. No view, no time to really deal with it, but I've also seen that another admin has had a word, so I'm not too concerned - happy to leave it to other admins to do what they feel is appropriate. TFOWR 13:11, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Key holder comment

Have you considered a self blocking? You could also just call me a f**** a***** little K*** and I will go running to mummy and ask for a weeks naughty chair for you. haha.. holiday yea but... Off2riorob (talk) 13:18, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to report him to another admin for something or another. Any ideas what we can accuse him of to get him a one week block? Jack 1314 (talk) 13:20, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Heh! I promised WT:BISE I'd close off a few of these at mid-day today. Which I have done. And now, if you both don't mind, the more you try and distract me the more likely it is that I will miss my flight... ;-) TFOWR 13:22, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Yea, one weeks block , threatening to miss his flight. Off2riorob (talk) 14:59, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Fairly sure that there's no policy about budget-airline related threats ... yet ;-) flight is delayed, anyway - wish they'd told me, I'm back using the phone from hell... so... what have I missed so far?! TFOWR's left sock 16:14, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Ignore all rules is all we need, so beware, we can block you and change the policy later....... notable retirement, over 100 000 edits User talk:AnmaFinotera ... Off2riorob (talk) 16:36, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Aye, I saw the {{Retired}} tag go up. Too much harassment?

Anyway - blocks! You know I've got a couple of socks set up, ready for that eventuality? ;-) TFOWR's left sock 17:07, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Harassment is an issue, usually users last about 18 months to 30 months, so Anna was a net gain to the project. IMO two socks is best, one is messy and three is a waste and confusing. Off2riorob (talk) 18:13, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Eurovision Newsletter - March through July 2010

Note: the Newsletter is "collapsed" for convenience. To see the full letter, click on the "show" button at the right end of the gray bar.

If you are no longer interested in WikiProject Eurovision then please remove your name from this list.

Delivered by MessageDeliveryBot on behalf of CT Cooper at 19:48, 2 August 2010 (UTC).

Articles for deletion

I have created the following pages, please can you delete them for me

Wicker Street Green, Walton Summit, Rivenhall, Cliburn, Hardendale, Oddendale, Flakebridge, Steward's Green, Sunbiggin, Budds, Sheet Hill, Keisley, Cathkin, Lanarkshire, Ellenborough, Cumbria, Cotman's Ash, Maplescombe, Ewanrigg, Ivy Chimneys, Mount End, High Park Corner, Bures Green, Waldringfield Heath, Beggarington Hill, Flockton Green, Bournebridge, Great Stoke, Blackwell, Cumbria, Thundridge, Great Crosthwaite, Sleagill, Warwick Bridge, Ivegill, Workhouse Green, Fox Royd, Heybridge, Brentwood, Highwood, Essex, Reagill, Portsmouth, West Yorkshire, Sherbourne Street, Broad Street, Suffolk, Calais Street‎, Wivenhoe Cross, Wivenhoe Village, Fordstreet, Lankaber, Gilts, Cumbria, Castletown, Cumbria‎‎, Fair Hill, Cumbria, Yopps Green, Harlow Tye, Linburn, Whiteclosegate, Romney Street, Tiptree Heath, Outlane Moor, Thorncliff‎.

Thanks Hamish Griffin (talk) 10:45, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

TPS... TFOWR is on holiday; you may want to ask someone else. Acps110 (talkcontribs) 11:07, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

you've got mail

Just letting you know I've dropped you an email. If you've got a chance let me know what you think but there's no rush--Cailil talk 23:20, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Cool, what's it about? Blackworm (talk) 07:15, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Request for mediation rejected

The Request for mediation concerning English Defence League, to which you were listed as a party, has been declined. An explanation of why it has not been possible to allow this dispute to proceed to mediation is provided at the mediation request page (which will be deleted by an administrator after a reasonable time). Queries on the rejection of this dispute can be directed to the Committee chairperson or e-mailed to the mediation mailing list.

For the Mediation Committee, AGK 14:50, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
(This message delivered by MediationBot, an automated bot account operated by the Mediation Committee to perform case management.)

YGM Template

Would it not make more sense to put your YGM template in the main templatespace? It would be quite a bit easier to use it, if it was moved to something like Template:Ygm because then all you would have to type is {{Ygm}} Would you consider doing that? ~~ Hi878 (Come shout at me!) 21:42, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I would just make it {{YGM}} rather than the lowercase {{Ygm}}. It would work better. :) - NeutralhomerTalk • 02:52, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Oops! That's what I meant to type... :P Anyhoo, moving it to Template:YGM would probably be a good thing. ~~ Hi878 (Come shout at me!) 05:06, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Probably! I wanted to see if there was any demand for it, first. It looks like there may be - I'll give it a wee bit of thought. I quite like "Ygm", but agree that "YGM" probably makes more sense... TFOWR 20:32, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
  •  Done: {{YGM}} (and a handy redirect at {{Ygm}} - it's going to take me a while to adjust to "YGM"...) The documentation could do with an improvement - volunteers welcome... TFOWR 22:55, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


Repeat after me: "H o l i d a y!"

holiday |ˈhäliˌdā|

noun a day of festivity or recreation when no work is done

 ;-) Namaste DocOfSoc (talk) 03:06, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
He does seem to have an interesting idea of the term... Courcelles (talk) 03:11, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Hey! Apart form a few posts on Monday I've been really good! And I've resisted the temptation to wade into a recent ANI thread, and instead let more competent (and online) admins deal with it. Seriously - check my contributions for the last few days! TFOWR 20:35, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


Thanks for your detailed summary on ANI TFOWR, very much agree with all those points. Re: your comment, "we need subject-matter experts who can weigh in on, say, flora and fauna", I believe one thing we need is a standard template or block of text with agreed neutral wording which asks local editors if they have any comments, points them to the case debate, welcomes comments and promises them they won't be flamed. This is because as you confirm, the stumbling block is often local article knowledge. One of the things I don't like about the WP-wide delete/add debate is that it frequently is indifferent to local article content concerns. But since we're here and this is the best show in town, we need something like this. I will work up some text if you approve and we can discuss it here or at my talk page. Thanks. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 09:36, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

I think that's an excellent suggestion. I'd suggest something that's heavy on the "thanks" and very welcoming ("we regard you as more knowledgeable than us", "we welcome your input", "we won't bite"..." - that kind of thing. Happy to discuss here, at your talkpage, or at WT:BISE. TFOWR 09:39, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
James I also think that is a great idea but maybe we should discuss it at the project page? Bjmullan (talk) 09:51, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Sure, just wanted to discuss it here a bit first - TFOWR, will include some text to match your suggestions above in the 1st draft. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 10:01, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Ultimately it should definitely go to WT:BISE, but I've no objection to a rough draft being hammered out elsewhere first. Given the interest and support, starting at WT:BISE might be most useful, however? TFOWR 10:03, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
OK. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 10:03, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Welcome back TFOWR. Hope you are all refreshed. Quick question re your contribution at AN/I. In your “@LevenBoy” (final sentence) did you mean to say "Hell, you can manage to engage with WT:BISE - why can't LevenBoy?", or someone else? Daicaregos (talk) 10:04, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Oops! I'll check and fix now. I meant that LevenBoy is doing well, TritonRocker not so much. Dammit! My carefully thought out comment was badly worded! TFOWR 10:10, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 Done here, and recorded here for transparency, and with apologies to LevenBoy (I'd hope it's obvious, however, that I'm generally impressed with LevenBoy's conduct). TFOWR 10:13, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for reverting the IP vandalism on my Talk: page. Jayjg (talk) 03:51, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

No worries. Though I have started thinking of this particular vandal as "Jayjg's fan", which is a little unfair to you - so apologies! TFOWR 07:36, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
One of many "fans" over the years. :-) Jayjg (talk) 13:45, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

ref filling in

Hello and welcome home. Could you do that ref filling in at this article I have stumbled on, please, Chris Huhne. I saw you did it a couple of times, alas I have never managed to get it to jump through hoops for me. Off2riorob (talk) 18:59, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

It is done. For what it's worth, Reflinks is a bit hit-or-miss even for me - it works most of the time, and works really, really well, but sometimes it just doesn't want to play ball. This time it was fine ;-) TFOWR 19:08, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Wow, looks good, later I will investigate and try to understand that tool, many thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 19:11, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
It'd be nice if Reflinks could be programmed to do this as well...
Incidentally, I always use the default settings - I simply paste the article name into the box and hit the "go" button. The only time I've ever tried anything else is when it doesn't work - and then it still doesn't work... so my recommendation is: stick to the defaults! TFOWR 19:18, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Hmm, thanks for the advice, I tried it a couple of times and nothing happened so I got a bit down on it, I will try it myself again next time. Off2riorob (talk) 19:22, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

T:ITN Question

I seen a problem with an In The News story, so I made a correction, but being a total noob to that area, I am not sure if I did it right. Could you take a look and let me know? - NeutralhomerTalk • 19:39, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Heh, you think that because I've edited stuff that screwed up the Main Page I'm suddenly an expert? ;-) Looks good to me, but I really am not the right person to be asking. Normally I'd suggest HJ, but obviously they're away. Any other TPSs know about this stuff? TFOWR 19:45, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, I thought of HJ too, but then remembered he was on break (bummer). I will wait for the TPS'ers. I am trying to "branch out" into other areas of the project other than just radio and television stations. - NeutralhomerTalk • 19:49, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Oh, I changed "sworn in as fourth" to "sworn in as the fourth" (without the italics). Hope that's OK.
I know what you mean about branching out: this stuff is an area I want to move into more, but haven't quite got around to. I promised Amalthea (talk) that I'd start doing WP:SPI stuff, too, but that's another "not quite got around to it" area... TFOWR 19:52, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
I have seriously branched out into writing. I am currently waiting to see if Stephens City, Virginia will pass FAC. I have 3 supports to 1 oppose and that oppose might go away today (if the person comes back) since I addressed all their concerns. If it passes, it is off to TFA. This is a big jump from writing stubs and starts for the radio and television groups. - NeutralhomerTalk • 20:04, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
I asked a user who had edited ITN a few times and he said I had did it right. That is how you put in a nomination for a story. Neat! Now we both know. :) - NeutralhomerTalk • 22:08, 8 August 2010 (UTC)


Tx. As a newbie, I might have thought he didn't know that. Then again, as on of an influx of newbies w/similar edits suddenly, otherwise reflecting deep knowledge of wiki rules, under "DUCK" one could reach a different conclusion. And since I wasn't ignoring him -- but had responded on his talk page, his re-add of his comment was surprising. Anyway, tx again.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:01, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

No worries - I used an AGF (Twinkle) revert, and made the edit summary as explicit as possible. I meant to follow it up with a post to his talkpage, but got side-tracked by real life ;-) TFOWR 21:34, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Welcome back

Hi TFOWR, nice to see you back. With HJ away you may be very busy! 220.101-talk\Contribs 14:14, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

It's good to be back! Should I have my industrial-strength mop ready?! ;-) What have I missed in the Southern hemisphere (i.e. User talk:, User talk:Sonia and User talk:Davtra)? TFOWR 14:44, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Didn't know they made industrial-strength mops. Interesting. Welcome back Dude. :) - NeutralhomerTalk • 14:49, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Industrial-strength mops...! Good to be back, and good to see you, uh, posting as well ;-) TFOWR 15:03, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Ah, so that is what kids are calling those these days. :D Yeah, I am suffering a bout of fun fun insomnia, so I am "wide-eyed and bushy tailed" (as my Mother would tell me on school days). I will probably crash hard soon. - NeutralhomerTalk • 15:09, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Ms Sonia is on a short wikibreak too, camping. If she can pack a camera she says she will post her pics on commons. See this for details. We have a 6yo girl missing here in NSW, starting to look like her parents may be involved. :-( 220.101-talk\Contribs 15:33, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm quite jealous of oor Sonia, though bad time of year to go camping... I did a wee tiki tour through Northland in Winter (in a camper van, mind...) and it was freezing... hope she arrives back safe, warm and dry!
That's a grim tale from NSW - always nasty when they think the parents (or step-parent...) might be involved. Hope not, and hope she also turns up safe and well. The neighbour's sighting gives me some hope, but still... TFOWR 22:21, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
In regards to your question, TFOWR ... I interacted with my first troll ("discussion" is in the collapsed box). I installed my first bot on my talk page. I changed my image from tumbleweed to a sleepy star. I got a message delivered by a bot for the first time. Apart from that, nothing else.  Davtra  (talk) 07:51, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm liking the new image (and - we have a barnstar for laziness? Why did no one (a) tell me, and (b) award me one - surely I'm the poster-editor for laziness??? Huh???!) GOT TO LOVE THE TROLLS, EH? Broken caps-lock keys seem to go hand-in-hand with trollery... TFOWR 08:09, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
You need to demonstrate that you are lazy. If I request you to delete one of my subpages/userpages because I no longer use it, do policies allow this?  Davtra  (talk) 02:10, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Ooh, that's a dilemma - I should lazily ignore this (at least for a few days...), but... but... no, it's no good, I can't resist the urge to help...
Aye, policy is fine with this - you can request anything in your userspace be deleted, including your userpage, with only two exceptions:
  1. Your talkpage (highly unlikely to be OK)
  2. Your talkpage archives (unlikely to be OK)
Which page did you have in mind? You can either dump a {{db-u1}} tag on the page, or simply let me know here - if I'm online the second option may be slighter faster, though the first is probably quite fast too.
TFOWR 07:39, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Hmm. Sounds good. I want you to delete Davtra/Edit summaries because I no longer use it. If you're active on Wikipedia everyday and take more than three days to fulfill my request, I'll award you with the lazy barnstar Face-wink.svg. Editors other than TFOWR who fulfill this request will be slapped and "fished"!  Davtra  (talk) 07:47, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
It is deleted. Now, where's my barnst... D'oh! I 'spose if I restore the page, wait four days, then delete it again - that's not nearly lazy enough?! TFOWR 07:58, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Ah, so you're a hard working Wikipedian? No lazy barnstar for you, but I'll give you WikiLove for taking care of me Face-smile.svg.  Davtra  (talk) 08:16, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Huh? Why was I never issued one of those "industrial strength mops"? Courcelles 08:00, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
    Oh, I had to steal mine - I was given a trophy, a T-shirt and a fairly heavy-duty mop (from Gwen Gale) but the flame-thrower I stole. ;-) TFOWR 08:09, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Welcome back. While you were aware, only one enforcement action was taken (which you are already aware of), and much to my delight, it went relatively smoothly without a specific need for me to comment in the ANI. :) Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:18, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
    Good to be back! Aye, I've commented in the recent ANI thread which gave me cause to think through the whole process - I really think it's a good process, one that might have wider use elsewhere in the POV arena. Much as I hate to say it, POV seems to be one area where it really helps to have a firm steward (or stewards) - partisan editors seem much more willing to work together when there's an authority-figure. Anyway - glad you didn't get dragged into the dramah-fest! TFOWR 09:23, 8 August 2010 (UTC)


File:Yosra_el-Lozy.jpg She's an up-and-coming film star, who's pushed the boundaries of Egyptian cinema.

Capolinho (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Hi! You recently deleted this editor's uploaded images due to licensing issues. I've been chatting to them about an article they created (I declined a speedy on it). They're currently blocked, and asked me to ask you about restoring one of the images (apparently it's theirs, though licensing confused them and they didn't make that clear...)

I've not seen the image, and have no idea whether the image would be OK (assuming the licensing concerns were addressed), and I do continue to have concerns about the editor's competence (links "confuse" them, apparently). However, if you could consider restoring the image it'd be good - even if it just means me explaining to them why it can't be restored.

Many thanks, TFOWR 13:54, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Done, though I've tagged it as missing a source and licence (they uploaded it with a "Use Only on Wikipedia" one). The image is commonly used on the internet - in July 2009 and July 2010 are the first two I see. Best of luck - Peripitus (Talk) 21:46, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Awesome - far more that I expected! Seriously, I'd have been happy with a "I have no intention of restoring it because..." response. I'll ping the editor and let them know they need to sort out licensing (and I'll whinge to you that I need to talk to the editor... it's hard work!) TFOWR 21:52, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

removed picture from talkpage, possibly non free. Off2riorob (talk) 20:10, 9 August 2010 (UTC))

Almost certainly non-free. I got the deleting admin to restore it based on a claim - possibly a misunderstanding by me - that the editor had taken it. Clearly that's not the case...! Anyway, I was surprised when it got re-added to the article (thanks for un-re-adding it, by the way) but I'm too weary of this particular case to wish to return to it tonight (the thread below touches on this, by the way - I ran screaming to the help desk...) TFOWR 20:16, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Ooh, it's a red link again! TFOWR 20:17, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Its still there but if I had a button I would delete it or nominate it for deletion but it will likely find its own way anyways as looks as it is kept out of the article it is fine. Off2riorob (talk) 20:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

(Aha! That'll be me being an idiot). The image will be deleted on the 15th unless licensing is sorted out, and, to be fair, the uploader is trying to get to grips with licensing - so I'd be happy to wait it out. TFOWR 20:36, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
The picture is all over the Internet, if he get to grips with that I will eat my hat. I have learnt all I know about pics and copyright from wikipedia, its not much but I also have my spidey senses. Off2riorob (talk) 20:42, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to bother the admins. I was really sad because one of the admins told me to show them a picture after re-uploading them. Unfortunately, another admins delete them before the first one see them. Disappointingly enough, I see this talk by mistake and I have recognized that it's impossible for me to be an "editor" here. I don't want to fool myself. Now, I have my last question, how can I deactivate my account from Wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Capolinho (talkcontribs) 21:28, 9 August 2010 (UTC) Capo (talk) 23:40, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi Capolinho. Sorry about that. I'll make a more considered reply on your talkpage later. TFOWR 08:49, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Getting the attention of helpers

Hi TFOWR, just a suggestion but, in future, you may want to consider using the template {{helpme}} when you want to alert helpers to a question on a user's talk page. I don't think there is a real problem with notifying the help desk with such requests, but the template may be a better alternative. Regards, AJCham 19:56, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

But, errr....that's up to the editor to add helpme to their own talkpage, and not someone else. If an admin such as TFOWR can't answer, or does not have the personal contacts to get the answer, then the helpdesk sounds far more responsible/reasonable. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 20:00, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Well, I'd have run it past the other editor first, or done it here. I did consider it - my thinking was that it was two "sets" of help I was after - for them, and for me (i.e. was the advice I'd given them sound). At the point I ran screaming to the help desk I was pretty much sick of the other editor's questions, though, so asking them if they minded a helpme tag... well, I just wanted to run away, to be honest ;-) TFOWR 20:05, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
I don't see it as a problem to add a helpme tag on behalf of someone else, if you find yourself coming up short in your efforts to help them. As someone who assists with helpme requests I certainly wouldn't snub an editor who was having trouble just because they didn't add the tag themselves. I'm pretty sure I've handled such situations before. AJCham 20:18, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Sure. I was partly looking for help for myself, as well, but in hindsight the help for the other editor helped me, too, so {{helpme}} probably would have been a better option (and would have spared me a second trip to the help desk in as many weeks...!) Thanks again, by the way - I was really at the limit of my image knowledge. TFOWR 19:59, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Pudsey, Calderdale

Hi The original creator of the page asked me to delete it, but as I am not an administrator on wikipedia, I do not have the powers to delete pages, so I blanked it and tagged it for deletion. If you look on my talk page, there is the message from the creator asking me to delete it. Tomd2712 | Tell me something? 14:09, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

You mean that post two above mine? D'oh! Sorry, should have spotted that. I'm still inclined to leave the redirect in place, to be honest. The only thing I'd change is: if Hamish Griffin (talk) want's it deleted, they should {{prod}} it. (And apologies once again for missing the obvious!) TFOWR 14:12, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

In re: Togo

I guess pending changes is acceptable for this page, though I imagine it might make more work for you admins than semi-protection will. I think most of the vandalism has been eliminated, but that page has really been butchered, and we need to watch for wholesale deletion of information. --Eastlaw talk ⁄ contribs 01:38, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm still in two minds about this, to be honest - pending changes will deny the vandals some "instant gratification", but won't really have any effect on the workload of good-faith editors. I've watchlisted Togo anyway: if vandalism picks up I'll semi it. TFOWR 08:21, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Re: Indian rupee sign

Can you check on this link: [5]. Someone just added this to the article by Info2012 (talk · contribs). I've reverted his edit because there's no compromise about this in the talk page (and the edit seems to copy from the article itself). - 上村七美 (Nanami-chan) | talkback | contribs 02:06, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Isn't that the same source used last time? I haven't checked, but I'm assuming that that's still the sole source indicating any "controversy" (and I really think they're playing fast-and-loose with the definition of "controversy"...) It looks like it was added nearly two days ago, and missed until you spotted it. I'll watchlist Indian Rupee sign (again!) and try and steer editors to the talk page if this happens again. TFOWR 08:24, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi (Editor review)

Hi TFOWR, I was wondering if you'd be interested in commenting on my editor review here. If you can't that's fine. Thanks!

I certainly can - it'd be my pleasure! I've never done an editor review before, so I can't promise it'll be done swiftly. TFOWR 08:20, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Thanks TFOWR, no worries I can wait Face-smile.svg, added Wikichecker for your convenience! Fridae'§Doom | Spare your time?
 Done ... here TFOWR 20:14, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
Thanks TFOWR. 04:51, 12 August 2010 (UTC)


Hi TFOWR ! The Allchar deposit is in southern FYROM and not in Macedonia. See the map in article Allchar deposit. Macedonia is a region in northern Greece. FYROM is a country in southern (former) Yugoslavia. --Xhmikos (talk) 05:31, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Oops! You're quite right. Sorry about that. Remember to stick to the naming conventions, and avoid "FYROM". TFOWR 07:34, 12 August 2010 (UTC) Materialscientist has done it already TFOWR 07:42, 12 August 2010 (UTC)



Can I have some help regarding a IP Toll who will not keep of my talk page despite being asked to. IP in question is - happy for you to semi protect my talk page for a while, if you think that is the best way. Codf1977 (talk) 08:25, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Favonian (talk) has blocked the IP for Personal attacks or harassment. Let me know if they resurface and I'll either reblock or protect as appropriate. TFOWR 08:28, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) thanks - will do. Codf1977 (talk) 08:29, 12 August 2010 (UTC)


When you get a chance, can you mark as resolved anything else on the BISE page? There's a few there which could be closed, and tis best to keep the number of "open" articles pretty small. Thanks. Welcome back from the hols! --HighKing (talk) 09:57, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Will do - should have done taken a look when I got back from me hols (as I promised...) I'll aim to take a look later today. TFOWR 10:00, 12 August 2010 (UTC)


Seems like he has upset the locals, thanks for the protection. Off2riorob (talk) 15:34, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

No worries. What did he do? I open articles (as well as history and logs) when I consider protecting stuff, but I tend only to read the lead (and golf isn't a big interest for me - ball to small, too many goals, not enough tackling...) TFOWR 16:32, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
He just said he wasn't bothered enough and quit after three months. Off2riorob (talk) 16:45, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Oh, him - I saw him on the news earlier, didn't make the connection. I must have protected a golfer somewhere today, and got the two confused. Aye, I can see why that might annoy folk. "Four months me luvver?" Don't fancy his chances on the mean streets of Ashton Gate tonight... TFOWR 16:55, 12 August 2010 (UTC)


I was just putting up some facts. I have nothing to do with advertising. Edit: Assume good faith. Crazyneeds2010 (talk) 19:27, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) All your "facts" appeared to be designed to mention Tripadvisor. If you demonstrate that you're able to make other edits - edits that don't promote an organisation - I won't be concerned: until then, all your edits appear to be WP:SPAM. My assumption of good faith extends as far as giving you the benefit of the doubt and warning you about spamming. TFOWR 19:35, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Take out the word Tripadvisor in the editCrazyneeds2010 (talk) 19:39, 12 August 2010 (UTC) Edit my mistake I accidently signed out.
...and leave it as WP:CITESPAM? No. I reverted the entire edits as unencyclopaedic spam. Now... about those other, non-spam edits you were going to make to demonstrate that you weren't here to spam the project...? How are they coming along? TFOWR 19:41, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Assume good faith. I'll leave it at that. I'm not getting involved in an edit war over little edits. But I have nothing to do with any website on the internet anywhere, I just put in the odd edit to the project in my spare time from time to time on various ranging subjects. If you want to prove you are not a troll then remove tyhe websites name. Your the one making an accusation. I like to enrich the encyclopedic knowledge and that is all. I do not have to prove anything.Crazyneeds2010 (talk) 19:55, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Your offer

Can I take you up on your offer for more work and get you to create a userpage for me? (talk) 15:55, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

 Done You may, and it is done. Enjoy! TFOWR 15:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
Thank you. I have updated my sig to direct there., 13 August 2010 (UTC)

A barnstar

Tireless Contributor Barnstar.gif The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
This is for your tireless contributions, helpful words, and patience with users who are still getting to grips with Wikipedia. Beeshoney (talk) 17:06, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
Thank you very much - I really do appreciate this! It's been a high point in quite a grim day, in which I've managed to do very little positive work! TFOWR 17:09, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Political Compass

It's more appropriate to follow this up here than at AN/I. On the basis of your results, I would be equally entitled to describe my politics as to the left of yours. But I won't do so. In fact, I would be happy to consider you a comrade (so long as you are not a viscerally anti-Trotskyist anarchist, of the sort I occasionally encounter in Hackney). I, for my part, am not anti-anarchist on that sort of personal level, even if I am critical of the anarchist approach to politics. Indeed some (many) of my best friends call themselves anarchists. RolandR (talk) 17:13, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I definitely consider Trotskyists to be comrades. I was a little surprised at my results (though I'll reiterate my scepticism at the political compass questions) and I'd definitely concede in hindsight that I couldn't describe myself as being to your left. The comment at ANI was more in the interests of disclosure - I didn't want to hide the fact that my political views are broadly sympathetic to yours (without bombarding ANI with Too Much Socialist Propaganda Information).
Incidentally, I hope you realise I wasn't suggesting that you had been non-neutral in your editing - my comment re: backing away wasn't intended to suggest that, merely that we should all try to avoid the appearance of any non-neutrality. TFOWR 17:23, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
I understand that. I am editing under the disadvantage of an easily-deciphered identity and a long-standing real-life involvement in this issue. The discussion at AN/I seems to have reached a consensus that, whatever my views, my actual edits were acceptable. Let's hope it ends there. If all else fails, real life is more important than Wikipedia (heretical thought!)RolandR (talk) 19:23, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
It is indeed! TFOWR 22:19, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

British Isles


I accept that you are acting as a uninvolved admin in these disputes, but this is getting to a point where we are bending over backwards to accommodate the POV of a minority of editors who have a political issue with the name of the group of islands. By doing this we are legitimising their political views in unrelated articles.

Both sides of the dispute have fanatical editors who edit to include or remove the term but now we are getting to the situation that this is becoming a distraction to the basic reason we are all here, ie the creation and maintenance of the encyclopaedia. Codf1977 (talk) 17:18, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

The problem (as I see it) is that there are places where it is completely appropriate to use the term "British Isles" and there are equally places where it is inappropriate. You're right that both sides have their fanatics, but - short of topic banning them (which remains an option) - that's not going to change. The process at WT:BISE is messy, but it remains better than no process, and the constant edit-warring and sock-puppetry that that resulted in. I do think there are ways the process can be improved: we need to be far better about pulling in "topic experts" (WT:FOOTY is the most recent example, but we've done it with Celtic Christianity recently as well) - and I've warned the regular WT:BISE folk that I weight topic-expert opinions far more heavily than the opinions of the WT:BISE regulars. We also need to start categorising things, and only dealing with the "edge cases". In short: you're right, but the alternative is worse, and we can improve what we have still further. TFOWR 17:32, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
Agree with your observations. Codf1977 (talk) 08:31, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

user name

Hi, how is it working when a user creates a name that is a real life person and gets involved in issues surrounding that living person? I thought they should be blocked until they either self identify as that living person or they should get a new username and stop asserting that they are that living person? Issue is a general question but is on relation to this user who is as I know in a legal issue with the Tolkien family. Google search for the username - Off2riorob (talk) 20:56, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) WP:REALNAME says that such editors may be blocked as a precaution - I guess that's Wikipedia hedging, on the basis that the offending editor may not be spotted, so might get away with it without being blocked. I'd certainly read it as "I'm allowed to block 'em" ;-) i.e. there's no big advisory for idiot admins saying don't block!!!1!
That said, I suspect the user is - or at least is claiming to be - who their username suggests. Uncle G (talk) and EdJohnston (talk) are in discussion with them about a possibly related matter. They have a fairly serious legal threat in their fairly recent history, which EdJohnston addressed, so I'd imaging they are who they claim to be. So basically - I ain't touching this with an orc's pike: I smell family-trust funded lawyers and am happy to defer to more experienced/brave wizards admins ;-)
TFOWR 21:10, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
  • I would block him and point him towards OTRS to identify or if he doesn't want to or can't do that then he should change his name. I will comment that to Ed, thanks..especially for the couple of amusants. Off2riorob (talk) 21:17, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the note

This is a very late reply, but thanks for the note you left a couple of weeks ago; I randomly decided to take a wikibreak and didn't want to go back on my talk page to leave a note as I'd probably get too absorbed into wikipedia again. I was editing far too much and decided to take some time out; I might stay away a little longer, but will probably be back soon. I'm going to try to ration myself though, I enjoy editing but don't want to find myself spending hours on here every day again. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 23:47, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

No worries at all - and very good to see you back: even if it is just for a short time. Wikibreaking is good, so I really can't complain when editors do it! TFOWR 23:50, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
I must say the messages I found on my talk page after logging in for the first time in weeks were very encouraging; it's good to be appreciated. I'll probably make a few edits over the next few days and try to maintain it at a fairly low level of activity. Quality over quantity, I hope. GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 00:01, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Demolition Hammer

I saw that you deleted Demolition Hammer since there was no objection to the PROD. I assume the band is notable. I am still tracking down some sources though. Would it be possible to email me a copy of the article so I can fiddle with it an see if some sources can be added?06:49, 14 August 2010 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Cptnono (talkcontribs)

I'll userfy it for you - give me a second. Incidentally - you can contest a prod at any time. I'm userfying it because you've said you assume the band is notable; if you'd said that the band were notable I'd restore the article instead. That said, I'm not seeing much to suggest notability yet, so I'd recommend you gave it some tender loving care. TFOWR 07:41, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
I didn't have it on my watchlist but remember seeing it and then was looking it up and it was gone. I'm not 100% positive so don't want to jump the gun on bringing it back. Thanks for the assistance.Cptnono (talk) 07:46, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
No worries! Restored, and moved to User:Cptnono/Demolition Hammer. I'd have no objection if you were to move it back to Demolition Hammer (I'd regard that as you contesting the prod) but I would still recommend more work on the article before you un-userfied it. TFOWR 07:48, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Ugh... no refs at all! I saw a couple out on the internet so it might be fixable.Cptnono (talk) 07:51, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Woo hoo! GNG is questionable. There is probably some Wikipedian out there somewhere that has some mags from the '90s that could help but oh well. WP:BAND is good so there shouldn't be any problems. I'll fiddle with it and get some sourcing in before moving it since that really should be done. I'll throw up some reasoning on the talk page also. Thanks again for shooting it over to a subpage.Cptnono (talk) 23:21, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

ENGVAR issues

Maybe I spend too much time talking to people of different nationalities, but can you give me an example of these ENGVAR issues? If so I'll be happy to fix them. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 16:28, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I gather it's the "IPO" acronym - I'm (now) familiar with it, but I wasn't until a few years ago (I'm a UK English speaker, mostly). It was mentioned at ITN/C - I gather AgBank is Hong Kong based, so I'd be happy with IPO if it's standard Hong Kong English, but it does need to be resolved first. TFOWR 16:34, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
actually Agbank is Beijing based, it was simultaneously listed in HK and Shanghai —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:27, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
That makes it slightly easier, I think - isn't Chinese English more aligned to US English than British English? In which case "initial public offering" is the best choice. I'd still like a neutral term, but I really doubt there is one, but so long as we wikilink "initial public offering" we should be fine. TFOWR 19:30, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Actually, one possible blurb at ITN/C spelled it out ("initial public offering") and wikilinked it. I think that would work for me if it's HK English. I'd still like to give ITN/C a few hours to consider the blurb. TFOWR 16:36, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
I've responded in more detail on ITN/C, it seems that IPO is standard "Chinese English" - I've linked to a number of members of the Chinese/Hong Kong English speaking press using the acronym either for a general page of to refer to this story in the headline. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:08, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Cool. I need to go offline for a wee while (grab some food...) but I'll promote it to the main page when I come back online. I'm intending to use your blurb (Agricultural Bank of China completed the world's largest ever initial public offering at US$22.1 billion.) with the IPO-expansion. TFOWR 19:13, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
not to be nitpicking or anything, but i gather there is no 'the' before agbank it is just agbank —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:33, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
No worries, blurb modified! I'll promote it in an hour or so - I need to grab some food now. TFOWR 19:43, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

ITN for 2010 Summer Youth Olympics

Hope your head is fine now, ITN was nice no? Anyway, on the 2010 Summer Youth Olympics ITN, did you note my proposed alternative then? I'm pasting it here:

The 2010 Summer Youth Olympics, the inaugural Youth Olympic Games, begins in Singapore with the opening ceremony held at The Float@Marina Bay.

The explanation's back on the nominations page, which can be easily accessed here! Please do alert me at my talk page if I somehow don't reply soon. ANGCHENRUI Talk 17:13, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I did, and I actually went with it initially, but I thought I was going to have balancing problems so I ended up with the original (which, ironically, I then had to trim because - I had balancing problems!) I need to revisit Template:ITN later, so I'll have a fiddle and see if your alternative blurb works OK with balance. TFOWR 17:17, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Actually, looking more closely, The Float@Marina Bay is in DYK at the moment, so I'll hold off until DYK gets updated. TFOWR 17:49, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Okay no problem :) Do contact me if you have a second opinion somehow. ANGCHENRUI Talk 01:25, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

name change and redirect

Hi, are you up to assisting this for me as I am not good with redirects and don't want to make a mess, , I want to rename the page and redirect the old name to the new page. Off2riorob (talk) 18:04, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Commented at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Betacommand. I'm up for it, but I'd hold off for a wee while in case anyone objects. I'm also a numpty with fancy characters and URLs so I'd like someone what is cleverer [sic] than what I am to reassure me that Delta's fancy new username won't break AN. Or something. TFOWR 18:12, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
I have also added a thought, I don't see any problem with deltas new name breaking the page, yes lets wait a little while for feedback, I appreciate your assistance with this. Off2riorob (talk) 18:15, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

The goalposts are moving around, haha. as usual in a free world. Off2riorob (talk) 18:24, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

What's the deal with BC/D anyway? Are the original sanctions now lifted, or are there outstanding sanctions? Just curious... it's an area I'd prefer to treat with the same caution as I treat orcs, Sauron, and lawyers... TFOWR 18:26, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Hehe, orcs, Sauron, I have all the extended dvd and I love to watch them all sometimes with a friend and some snacks and a few bottles of stoat. Beta was naughty got out of hand was running bots because he thought it was good and was a bit rude when people asked him what he thought he was doing...(loose cannon - free wheelin) sanctions have been a bit relaxed and there is some partisan opinions. Off2riorob (talk) 18:31, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
I get that (I vaguely remember some of the shit-storms at ANI a year or two ago) - but there was a suggestion yesterday (apropos of BC/D's Twinkle/Monobook.js) that the sanctions had expired. If they have, Xeno would seem to have a point. But if I understand you correctly, there are some outstanding sanctions? (I'm nosey!) TFOWR 18:35, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
I only know the basics and that attitude and violations are recently improved. I think that is the partisan issue, some users think he should be restricted and some don't. Off2riorob (talk) 18:36, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

There is an objection which is fair enough and it may well be a good idea to keep for now so...

Will you do this or shall I ..

main page rename Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Δ (Delta)

this... Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Delta

this... Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Δ

this... Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Betacommand

as redirects. Off2riorob (talk)

Give me an hour or so, I've been trying to get offline and grab some food for ages now! Back soon. TFOWR 19:41, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I have done what I could. Off2riorob (talk) 19:47, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

My first choice Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Δ (Delta) was blacklisted and led me to this page can you see why that was? Off2riorob (talk) 20:06, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Not entirely, but as soon as you mentioned blacklisting in connection with page-moves I had an idea, and that idea was what HJ was talking about. Been a while since I had to fix pagemove problems of the type HJ mentions, but I seem to remember lots of non-standard symbols at the start (Δ, for example) followed by a phrase in brackets. Am I on the right lines? TFOWR 20:48, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes you sound like you are, I was surprised though when I was able to create the redirect for the blacklisted title.. no worries, so symbol and brackets is a no no, something to remember for the future. I think it has worked out for the best anyways. Off2riorob (talk) 20:53, 14 August 2010 (UTC)


Sorry, I just started patrolling recent changes and so am still getting used to the warning system and Twinkle. On hindsight I probably should have simply reverted it and used the level 1 template. Deftera (talk) 19:36, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

No worries, easily done! (Twinkle's great, but it takes some getting used to - I only started using it a few months ago myself). TFOWR 19:40, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Please close

Hiya TFOWR, would you mind doing the honours atTalk:Northern Ireland#One month on? It would save us all from more grief. Thanks, Daicaregos (talk) 21:48, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

 Done Now all that nonsense is over I can finally comment on my own view: demonyms are a bloody neologism; the sourcing at Northern Ireland was piss-poor, but I reckon it was still a million times better than sourcing for other articles' demonyms; we should remove-by-fire demonyms across the project; and if I repeat this theory I'll be laughed off Wikipedia. ;-) Rant over, and I feel better once I've had that pint...! Hey, I may even start to have faith in good, honest words like "African", "Australian" etc. Right now I don't trust demonyms at all. TFOWR 22:08, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Thanks mate. You've done us all a favour. As for the sources - this made a mockery of it all. Daicaregos (talk) 22:14, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
No worries. Now I just have WT:BISE to worry about. ;-) Oh joy! TFOWR 22:21, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
So you support the removal of reliable sources to push a POV.Mo ainm~Talk 22:23, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
I think the solution WikiUserNI and BW worked out was pragmatic. Not my preference, to be honest, but whatever works I guess. TFOWR 22:27, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
But why couldn't other sources be used for British and whatever instead of removing a whole section? Mo ainm~Talk 22:29, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
You're asking the wrong person - I just closed the discussion. You'd need to ask the people who participated in the discussion. TFOWR 22:30, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
I have stated it on numerous occasions to get told I am pushing a POV, I would love to know what that POV is that I am pushing, as an admin can you see the POV I am alleged to be pushing? Mo ainm~Talk 22:34, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Again, you would need to ask them. Over at WT:BISE I've said that claims like that aren't cool (and I'm hoping we're going to start getting tough on attacks negative comments against other editors). At Talk:Northern Ireland I have no mandate to do much, beyond watch out for obvious WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA violations, and even then I'm planning on running away from Talk:Northern Ireland as fast as I can now this episode seems to have drawn to a close - WT:BISE is about all the hard work I have time for at the moment. If you're getting negative comments from other editors - raise it with them, and if that doesn't work take it to WP:WQA. Sorry to be so unhelpful, but there's a limit to the number of things I can get involved in at one time. TFOWR 22:42, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
It was Dais suggestion and one i should have considered long ago :(, its nice to get credit though lol. Oh and dont forget TFOWR tomorrow the debate on foreigner players will resume lol. So if you are going to the pub later, ask around about it, im sure bloke down the pub would pass WP:RS.  :) BritishWatcher (talk) 22:35, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
You know, I sometimes think this encyclopedia will never be finished (I know, it's never meant to be). I have a nightmare where I'm in my 70's or 80's wearing my incontinence pants and dribbling over a keyboard wondering what the hell a source is. :) Jack 1314 (talk) 22:41, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Nightmare! Call that a nightmare! That'll be me when I'm 50! --HighKing (talk) 00:33, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi (DYK)

Not to be a pest, but if you do do work in the DYK area of Wikipedia, would you mind reviewing my DYK nom for Temple House Castle and Manor it's under articles created/expanded on August 12. Thanks! Fridae'§Doom | Spare your time? 22:07, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

DYK is not somewhere I've ever been, I'm afraid. I've done ITN a couple of times now (second time was today - I'm still recovering!) I can do moppy things - if DYK people tell me what to do (using short, small, easy words) I can do probably do it - but reviewing DYKs would be very much outside my comfort zone - sorry! TFOWR 22:11, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Know of any admins that could review it? Fridae'§Doom | Spare your time? 22:14, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Best I can suggest is trawling through Template talk:Did you know's history - it really isn't an area I know at all. TFOWR 22:17, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Ok thanks TFOWR! Consider me one of your newest tps's :) Fridae'§Doom | Spare your time? 00:37, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
You mean you weren't already :-o I'm halving your pay for next month! ;-) Seriously, though, DYK is one of those areas I want to look at more when I have time, but right now ITN seems to be my newest area of interest, and it ain't easy. WP:SPI is an area I know a fair bit about, but even then I'm not comfortable getting more involved... yet. So DYK is probably going to have to wait while. Incidentally, editor reviews is interesting and I'd like to do more. TFOWR 07:52, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
No, no more salary cuts!!! Ok, I understand being an admin is very tiring and hard. Fridae'§Doom | Spare your time? 08:59, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
It's not all bad - they doubled my salary when they gave me the mop! ;-) TFOWR 09:08, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Unless you want to follow me around forever


Removed because I have been spanked not only by the website owner ( CT website) for even listing the site here, but here as well..So whats done is done.. unless you want to follow me around forever under multiple accounts —Preceding unsigned comment added by Medrate (talkcontribs) 08:26, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

WonHwaDo deleted


why article about korean martial art WonHwaDo was deleted?

-- Jaro —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 09:10, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

It was proposed for deletion for seven days, with no objections. If you want I can restore it? It's got sourcing issues - it has external links to the various national and international federations, but no references within the article. That might be fairly easy for you to fix, however? Let me know if you want to "contest the deletion" and I'll restore it for you. TFOWR 09:15, 15 August 2010 (UTC)


Interested in helping Courcelles and I with a couple of (Kiwi) FLCs? sonia 10:05, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

PMs and Governor Generals? Aye, I saw that (you may have noticed a recent edit or two to the Sri Lankan PM list...!)
Yes I would be. I gather it's not immediate (and best of luck with the Auckland Town Hall gig!) so no worries there.
Incidentally, while you're here, I've noticed you doing RFPP clerking recently - that's something I've never quite had the courage to do, as I fear scripts and all the evilness they can do. Is it straightforward? I have the script in my monobook.js, I've just never used it. TFOWR 10:08, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
Immediate? No. I've got 3 open FLCs, an open FAC, and six more lists within an hour's work each of being ready for FLC. (Okay, the 1956 Cortina one is 3 hours away, don't shoot me.) I'd be fun, though to go somewhere entirely different for a while. Courcelles 10:13, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
The script? Very straightforward- one click, then you save it. No fancy interface. It is reasonably reliable, but I always review the changes first before saving. Cool, I'll find sources when I can, and hopefully they'll not be too bad- both articles (the national parks one and the prime ministers) are high-importance to WPNZ and of personal interest. sonia 10:19, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Need some advice

Hello TFOWR,

Please advise me how to improve Kourosh Zolani’s article while few editors revert my edits constantly. I understand that the final decision to keep or to delete the article is based on the article itself, but the article will not have a chance if some editors keep reverting the edits instead of improving the article.

1. I think this version was a fine version, which still could be improved.

2. I added new references for radio interview and the online radio stations here which were also removed.

3. Plus, I found the Farsi translation of the article in Iran Newspaper. I still have not figured out how to make it a footnote. Even if I add it to the page, my concern is that it will be removed right away.

What do you recommend me to do? Does it even worth it to continue editing this page, if my edits keep being removed and do not get a chance to be reviewed by the administrators who make the final decision? Thank you, Sozlati (talk) 22:33, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I can't really get involved - all I can do is watch over the AfD and make sure editors there stay within policy (for example: not attacking each other). What I can suggest is: raise it at the relevant WikiProjects. I'd recommend WikiProject Music and WikiProject Iran. Post a short message at each project, asking if editors there have any ideas for finding sources. They should certainly be able to help you with things like formatting citations. Hope that helps! TFOWR 22:47, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
OK, thank you, Sozlati (talk) 23:06, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
I know I'm now 'involved' so take this with a pinch of salt, but I don't think this and this are appropriate uses of Rollback. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:45, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm not convinced you are necessarily involved, but, regardless, both of those edits were inappropriate uses of rollback. I've warned Beeshoney not to do it again. TFOWR 23:01, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Shane Carwin

Don't know if you're aware, but the Shane Carwin article, which you've protected before, has received a bit of vandalism recently due to the current issues surrounding him. Just thought you might want to know, incase you'd like to keep an eye on it. -- James26 (talk) 18:18, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Looking into it now, thanks. TFOWR 19:17, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
(See below, and comment on talk page - basically, the comment has been removed, and I'll protect the page if it shows signs of being edit-warred back in. TFOWR 19:54, 15 August 2010 (UTC))


I lifted it and left a note on the talkpage , this is another of the people on the list Tony_Freeman, ? Off2riorob (talk) 19:43, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh joy. Watchlisted. TFOWR 19:54, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
It is a point to remember that we do seem to operate different standards as regards issues throughout different projects, as regards citation quality and suchlike but BLP seems to thread pretty evenly throughout the project. Like in music topics the citations are of one quality and in another project they demand a higher quality, it is good to tread carefully in projects we're not accustomed to...hmmm...and wrestling is one I have glanced at and usually avoid. Off2riorob (talk) 20:05, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
Sure, and I appreciate that it's entertainment-driven and wrestlers are going to say really quite inflamatory things (and our articles probably should report that - "He's a motherf***** and I'm gonna kill him for what he did in Vegas!") which is why I wanted to run it past you. Sorry about that - I know I promised I wouldn't make you my go-to BLP resource, but I knew you were online, and I wanted a low-key way of handling it, without punting it to BLPN. I'm building confidence with BLP issues - honest! (Normally I stick to dead people - dead people can't sue!) TFOWR 20:10, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
Yea, thats one of the best things about dead people. I don't mind you asking at all, please feel free to ask anytime I can help or just be someone to bounce something off, I will. Off2riorob (talk) 20:14, 15 August 2010 (UTC)