User talk:Tariqabjotu/Archive Six

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From BlueGoose

Sorry, I couldn't get back to you quickly. The reason I opposed your RfA is because I felt you would take too confrontational an approach in dealing with potential disruptors as evidenced in your answers. The fact that somebody claims a scientific theory is false does not mean he is a bad-faith disruptor and banning him immediately without having a dialouge much less giving him the usual number of warnings only antagonizes people against Wikipedia. I believe a better solution would be to revert the user's changes and explain to him why the article in Wikipedia is written the way it is, hopefully by citing our relevant policies as well. He may come back and say that criticisms of the theory are not cited in the article, and you may come back and say that Wikipedia does have a way of outlining the minority view as the minority view. Then, you may act as a mentor for him to edit Wikipedia within the constraints of our policies. I believe this would work better than to play the role of police officer with a stick. BlueGoose 03:06, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. Not to carry on this discussion extensively, but it seems like you weren't aware of Cyde's entire question. The hypothetical situation involved a vandal who in addition to proclaiming that a scientific theory was false (as you explained thoroughly in the above statement) also vandalized a page with a Goatse image. It was the part about the Goatse image that, in my opinion, makes the user a particularly harmful vandal. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 03:37, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Current events

Thanks for the note on my talk page about the new WPCE. I have made a couple of comments as a start and will do more later. Pcb21 Pete 10:46, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Esperanza Newsletter, Issue #2

The Barnstar Brigade is a new program aimed at giving more very deserving yet unappreciated users barnstars. It will officially start on 2006-04-09, but signing up is encouraged before this date:
"Here in Wikipedia, there are hundreds of wikipedians whose work and efforts go un-appreciated. One occasionally comes across editors who have thousands of good edits, but because they may not get around as much as others, their contributions and hard work often go un-noticed. Sadly, these editors often leave the project. As Esperanzians, we can help to make people feel appreciated, be it by some kind words or the awarding of a Barnstar. A project the size of Wikipedia has thousands of editors, so there are plenty of people out there who deserve recognition, one just has to find them. The object of this program is not to flood editors with Barnstars, but to seek out people who deserve them, and make them feel appreciated."
The Stress alerts program aims at identifying users who are stressed, alerting the community of thier stress and works in tandem with the Stressbusters at trying to identify causes of stress and eliminating them.
Welcome to the second issue of the new format Esperanza Newsletter - we hope you still like it! This week, it was delivered diligently by our new dogsbody. MiszaBot (run by Misza13): any execution complaints should go to him. Content comments should be directed at the Esperanza talkpage. Thanks!
  1. The next elections: Approval voting as before and, also as before, an previous leadership member can run. Please submit your name for voting in the relevant section of this page. Voting starts on 2006-04-23 and ends on 2006-04-30. There will be three places up for grabs as KnowledgeOfSelf is leaving Wikipedia. Please see the previously linked page for full details.
  2. The Code of Conduct is now ready for extensive discussion! Specific comments should go to the Code of Conduct talk page, discussion of having one at all should be directed to the main Esperanza talk page.
  3. The current process for accepting proposals for new programs has been deemed fine. All Advisory Council members and the Admin Gen are to endevour to be bold when viewing discussion. If they feel that consensus has been reached, they will act accordingly.
A plea from the editor...
The propsed programs page is terribly underused! Please leave any comments, good or bad, on the page, to help us determine the membership's thoughts on the ideas there.
Celestianpower, JoanneB, Titoxd, KnowledgeOfSelf and FireFox 19:53, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy map

Hello, I just wanted to say I found your color coordinated map of reactions to the cartoon controvery very interesting and informative. I think things like this that present data in means "outside of the box" are specially appealing. Good job. —Aiden 02:27, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks; I've gotten quite a few positive comments regarding the map. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 02:44, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


Hello, yes I think it is ready. I will help deal with any problems on it's FA. About the Selimiye picture, I think it should replace the primary picture. --a.n.o.n.y.m t 01:55, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Only because it looks nice. The Afghan mosque is good, but a large important one should have the top. --a.n.o.n.y.m t 03:58, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
There's people in that one. Otherwise it's good. --a.n.o.n.y.m t 04:18, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Islamic Saudi Academy

POV, yes. Unverified, no. Everything in the article is a fact, including the nickname, which I am re-adding with a souce. If there is verifiable factual information you feel would balance the pov, I will not contest it. KI 14:29, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Charles Stuart William Palmer

I am curious, what was the reason for flagging this article as "This person is not notable."? Regards Oldfarm 16:02, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. FYI, Google searches for "Charles Palmer judo" [1] and "Charles Stuart Palmer judo" [2] yield a number of articles. He was also known as Charlie Palmer, and Google finds numerous articles under that name [3] - (including one on Wikipedia, Judo). There was already a page on Wikipedia for Charles Palmer (a cricketer). Regards Oldfarm 03:01, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I'm leaving the article alone (although a source or two would be nice for users like me who fail to find the man on a search engine). -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 03:10, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Most of the article came from my own notes that I have collected over the years. On a lot, I really cannot remember the source. Many are newspaper and magazine articles that were cut out and mailed to me by friends. A lot was from memory. Regards, Oldfarm 04:09, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


Thanks for the Barnstar. It is nice to be noticed. You have a neat user and talk page. --Bduke 22:34, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Netscott's block

The content of the linked site aside, Netscott was clearly acting in good faith re the WP:3RR, and quit reverting when he thought he'd run out. Further, he did discuss his changes on the talk page. It is rather Anonymous editor who declined discussion. Netscott should be unblocked.Timothy Usher 04:36, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Just a note to apologize to you Joturner for trying to revert/add that link. I must admit that it had been a month or two since the last time I had visited the Mohammed Image Archive page and when I originally visitied it the "Extreme Muhammad" section was no where near as reprehensible as it is now. Now that I've actually seen what's been added to that section, I 100% agree that such a site has no business being linked to from the Muhammad article. Netscott 05:41, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I just want to point out that I cannot block / unblock users as I am not an admin. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 13:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


I took a look at mosque -- it's shaping up nicely. Some links to articles on architecture might help -- is there an article on Islam and architecture? -- and perhaps some notice taken of Saudi subsidies for new mosques and their controversial stand against any form of decoration. Saudi-designed mosques might as well be warehouses, IMHO. I don't have time to do any of this, but you might enjoy looking for materials. Zora 02:39, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I have to deal with the objections on the article's FAC first. You seem to be a little more familiar with the situation than me, so you probably would be more able to write a section on mosques in Saudi Arabia. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 04:47, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Um, I must have expressed myself badly. The Saudis can build their own mosques like warehouses -- it's sad, but not my place to complain. It bugs me when they tear down beautiful old mosques to put up a warehouse that I get upset, or when they subsidize new mosques outside Saudi (as they are doing in the US) and demand that the new mosques be completely modernist and unadorned. It's exactly like the Puritans going about smashing cathedrals. It hurts me in the aesthetic :/ The problem is that I have a strong POV here, but I don't have a battery of quotations and pictures to back it up, and that's what would be needed for a good article. So I'm not going to be inserting a POV if I can't support it properly. Zora 05:46, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Mosque FAC Comment

Thanks for letting me know. I will go over the article and sources again over the next few days. Pecher Talk 10:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your great work on Mosque. I hope this one will get featured. By the way, I see you are a Muslim and I would like to hear your comments about Martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadar. The article says that "fundamentalists thrust Islam by hook or by crook... by sexual harassment and forcible abductions of the daughters of Hindus and other satanic misdeeds". Is it true? --Ghirla -трёп- 06:39, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

All I have to say is that Martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadar is in serious need of cleanup. It's hardly coherent as it is. If you want to discuss the merits of Mosque becoming a featured article, you can leave your comments at its FAC page. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 22:40, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

New user page

Looks great! Only thing is that I'd think twice before posting your picture -- as you know, wiki can get quite personal. Take care. -- Samir Canadian maple leaf 2.jpg (the scope) 07:01, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I have nothing to fear. If John Lee Ming Keong can post his picture without a problem, I don't think I should have a problem either. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 07:06, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I'd give JLMK the same advice if I knew him. Take care -- Samir Canadian maple leaf 2.jpg (the scope) धर्म 18:45, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I echo the sentiments on the new layout. Its quite nice, one of the best I've seen so far.--KrossTalk 22:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment; I'm glad you like it. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 22:32, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


Hey buddy,

I was browsing WP:FAC recently when I ran across the article on the mosque. I was impressed by your contributions to this article and this drew me to your user page. I then noticed your RfA and read over that, and was quite disturbed by the kinds of objections that were raised to your nomination there.

I just wanted to let you know that your work here on Wikipedia stands out, and is appreciated, even if some people fail to see that. I am very impressed by your dedication to the mosque article; you address every concern in the FAC discussion and its featured article nomination has garnered considerable support.

I also deeply regret that your user page caused you so much trouble during your RfA. People checked that out and immediately assumed that you were totally biased and that you would abuse administrative powers. Your defense under the comments section in your RfA is impeccable, and it deeply saddens me that people would be so quick to jump to conclusions. I personally enjoyed your user page; it's obvious you put considerable effort into polishing your work on Wikipedia, and your user page is no exception.

Keep up the good work. Adhere to your faith. Don't let others bring you down. And thank you for your contributions. —Lantoka ( talk | contrib) 10:17, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Solar eclipse


I thought you might want to take a look at my changes in Solar eclipse since you voted in the FA discussion.

Thanks, Nick Mks 14:23, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


Thanks for the barnstar, and by the way that was my first one. I also want to mention that I really like your user page and I enjoyed the story of your spiritual path. Cuñado Bahaitemplatestar.png - Talk 06:28, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Mosque FAC

Thanks for the heads up; I'll take a look.

In the meantime, I'm amazed by what you've done with your user pages. How did you do all this?Timothy Usher 08:33, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

The answer's simple. My user page says "I am editing from UTC-4". I believe the signature gives UTC... and so subtract four... that should give you the answer. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 08:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Old Skool Esperanzial note

Since this isn't the result of an AC meeting, I have decided to go Old Skool. This note is to remind you that the elections are taking place now and will end at 23:50 UTC on 2006-04-29. Please vote here. Thanks. --Celestianpower háblame 20:42, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Jylland Posten cartoons

I read your userpage and I'm curious about your position on the Muhammad cartoons. I must applaud you for how well you've documented your conversion. KI 03:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

In order from who I was/am least angry at to who I most angry at:
  • Least Angry At: peaceful protesters and newspapers that printed the cartoons just to convey the news
  • Second-Least Angry At: Jylland-Posten
  • And then... Newspapers that made a point not to print the cartoons (i.e. saying CNN, BBC, etc decided not to print the cartoons out of respect for Islam)
  • Second-Most Angry At: Other newspapers that reprinted the cartoons with the intention of rubbing them in the face of displeased Muslims
  • Most Angry At: Flag-burning, violent, inciteful ("Muslim") protestors
There is obviously nothing I could find wrong with the peaceful protestors. I also had no problem with newspapers that printed the cartoons so they could portray the news. I was only a bit more angry at Jylland-Posten because, although the cartoons depict the Prophet Muhammad in a terrible and incorrect way, they had every right to do it. Their intention was to stand up against bullying by radical Muslims, and I applaud that, even if I don't agree with the message in the cartoons (which I don't believe the cartoonists even agreed with). I was a little more angry at newspapers that made a big deal out of the fact that they weren't going to print the cartoons. In my opinion, it sounded as though they were saying Please don't hurt us scary Muslims; we're not printing the cartoons. I would have much rather preferred them unceremoniously not printing the cartoons. I was significantly angry at the newspapers that reprinted the cartoons for the sake of standing behind Denmark and taking sides. That served no purpose but to enrage and ignite a cultural battle; I don't believe that kind of incitement is good for the planet.
However, I'm by far most angry at the Muslims who decided to react to the issue with violence. It is truly disappointing that there are so many Muslims who resort to violence in the face of adversity. Around the world, Muslims have a bad name as terrorists and violent reactionaries. And ironically, in response to this typecasting, they conform to that very typecast. Unfortunately, I have witnessed the same kind of thing in the African American community. Such is life I suppose. I converted to Islam in the midst of the July 2005 London bombings in the hope that there was still a significant amount of good left in the Muslim community, instead of a submission to stereotypes like I see in my lost African American identity. Even after this fiasco in February, I still think there is. Somewhere. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 03:51, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Do you care to explain your action regarding timeline ga failure? -- tasc talkdeeds 18:24, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe I did explain the rationale on the talk page. I never said anything was unreadable in the article. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 19:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome

Please remind me to give you a "support" if you decided to candidate yourself for adminship. --Aminz 10:08, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Muhammad Cartoons and some other stuff

Yes! I feel the exact same way. I am curious, does your school have a local chapter of MSA? I started an Islamic Culture Club, which is not a member of MSA but runs along the same lines, and I want to hold Jumu'ah prayers in school, but as it is a public school I am unsure of the legality of such an action because it would be school-sponsored prayer... Any idea? Thanks, KI 03:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, my school does an MSA although it is not a member of the MSA. I go to a public high school as well and we do hold jumuah weekly (although this is the first year it has really been organized enough to do that). Right now, our jumuah prayers usually have fewer than seven attendants, despite a student body of 3300, but it's better than nothing. If you live in the United States, like myself, prayer within a student organization is protected under the Equal Access Act, which was passed in August 1984. It states:
It shall be unlawful for any public secondary school which receives Federal financial assistance and which has a limited open forum to deny equal access or a fair opportunity to, or discriminate against, any students who wish to conduct a meeting within that limited open forum on the basis of the religious, political, philosophical, or other content of the speech at such meetings. (full text)
That and the rest of the act are generally interpreted to mean prayer in religious clubs is allowed as long as it's not disruptive and as long as attendance is not encouraged or mandated by the school. So go ahead and try it; it's your right. Unless, of course, if you're not from the United States; it may not be then. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 03:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Your warning to

Hi Joturner, I suspect you've given an erroneous warning (using vandalproof) against User: [4]. Please see Talk:Council_on_American-Islamic_Relations#removal_of_links for my reasoning. Thanks, Andjam 04:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Given the user's history of warning (although the AOL account complicates matters), the IP, and the fact that the edit summary (revert previous blanking AGAIN!) seemed to indicate that the content had been removed before, I determined the edit to be vandalism. It appears from the talk discussion that the edit was in fact legitimate. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 04:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


I have responded. --Cyde Weys 04:36, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


Hi Jordan,
Thanks for sharing your steps into Islam on your user page. One in particular caught my attention: "14 August 2005: I make the intention to stop listening to music." Does (or did) that mean any and all music, or just certain kinds? Has the intention been realised? I understand if you feel these questions are too personal, with my apologies in advance if my curiosity makes me too forward. Regards, David Kernow 13:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Interpretations about whether music is allowed in Islam vary. I was never really particularly fond of music, especially rap and hip-hop, so I was more than happy to attempt this one. Nevertheless, it is quite hard to avoid music. Television, other people who like to listen to music in the car, etc are sources of music even if I don't want to listen to it. And on occasion, I will listen to some music intentionally. However, since I've listened to those songs so many times, it's really no big deal. So, overall, I say that has been realized. I listen to / hear music far, far less than I used to. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 14:40, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, Jordan. People sometimes laugh off "gangsta culture" and the like, but there are some perturbing lyrics out there. I hope I'm not suffering from pre-senile conservatism. Though it's a minority, there is some great instrumental rock around. I reckon music is a basic kind of human expression – which, like anything else, humans can abuse – and I think I'd really miss it if I no longer (or hardly ever) listened to or took part in it. So long as people can choose. (I once worked in a warehouse where the radio was always on...) Best wishes, David Kernow 17:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

PS Here's a retouched version of your photo: Image:Joturner-self (retouched).jpg

I don't really miss the music. Also, thanks for editing my photo. However, I darkened it a bit (I like the darkness) and replaced the original image. It's now at Joturner-self.jpg. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 20:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Glad you liked it. I have the monitor I use set darker than seems the norm, so I probably made the photo too light. Anyway, if anyone else would like to see a brightened version, there's somewhere to direct them. Best wishes, David 21:11, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Buhari Template

Check this out.. Sahih al-Bukhari, 076:08:422

Suggestions welcome!! «₪Mÿš†íc₪» 21:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I was trying to figure out what you wanted me to look at, but then I realized it was the template. The template doesn't work perfectly since all numbers must have three digits (I think {{Buhari|076|008|422}}, not {{Buhari|076|08|422}}) was what you were going for. If possible, it would be nice to have it fill in those leading zeros if the editor doesn't put them in. In addition, it seems like it should be volume|book|number, not book|volume|number as you currently have it. Lastly, I would be great to have it say Sahih Bukhari - Volume 8, Book 76, Number 422 instead of the current Buhari Book 076 Vol 08 Hadith 422. Lastly, unless there is a transliteration I'm unaware of, the template needs to be moved to Bukhari. Feel free to reply with a {{sofixit}} if that is what you want. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 21:45, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Qur'an templates

Hi Jordan,

I responded on Mystic's home page, but in case you're not watching it:

Four templates? That's completely unnecessary. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 21:46, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
No, it's not. The standard first template cannot do two things: 1) drop the word "Qur'an" where it's already been stated, or where multiple verses are being cited in one sentence. We don't wish every other word to be Qur'an - in blue no less. I discovered this problem when I went around adding the original template to various articles. 2) Cannot cite a range, except as follows: [Quran 009:010]-15, which is ugly as sin. However, please let me know if you've a solution to these problems (as with the ugly zeros) within one template - of course we'd prefer just one were it possible.
Alternately, we may wish to drop Quran-usc and Quran-usc-range in favor of the num versions - at least that way, we could manually include Qur'an, or not, and only require two templates.
What do you think?Timothy Usher 00:37, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I was just going to suggest that. That's wonderful. It says never to use templates within other templates, though; I'm not sure why. Still, the zeros are so ugly, this is what we must do.
Brilliant. Thanks for all this help.
What about the range issue? Of course it doesn't matter as far as USC is concerned, we start in the same place, the end-range is just there to avoid it from falling outside the link display.
Also, what do you think of my idea to drop "Qur'an" from the link display?Timothy Usher 01:10, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes; dropping it would be a good idea. If you want, you (or I) just copy the code from {{three digit}} to the other templates. Feel free to use {{sofixit}} if you so desire. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 01:13, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Shall do, making the -num variants defunct.Timothy Usher 01:16, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand what you mean by that. What are you doing? Copying the code from {{three digit}}? -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 01:21, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I'll do both. Question: is there a way to determine where this template has already been used? Shouldn't be too many places. That way I can go through, add the word Qur'an and cut the zeros from the display.Timothy Usher 01:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
You can look at "what links here" (located on the left side of every page under toolbox) on the template page. For the Qur'an-usc template, this is the what links here page. Nothing includes that template as you can see. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 01:38, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Help! After a few careless errors, this is what I did, and it's still not working correctly:[5]

You can see what's happening - it's looking for the first set of close brackets, rather than moving inward from both sides.Timothy Usher 01:40, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

The template works - [Quran 3:21]. I think the if statements are a bit troublesome although they are indeed implemented correctly (at least I thought they were). Perhaps you could put a message on the template talk page stating that there really is no error contrary to what the template page says. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 01:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

More Hadith Templates

I created all these templates. If you want a shorter version of the Bukhari template use Template:Bukhari-usc created by Timothy. If there are issues please feel free to fix them and remember to put a note on the talk page. thanks «₪Mÿš†íc₪» 09:04, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


Minor Barnstar.png The Minor Barnstar
for your help in creation of the very useful Qur'an and Bukhari Templates. Aminz 08:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Poll of the Day

Why did you delete my article about the Poll of the Day on Talk:Main Page? I thought it was a pretty good idea.1028 23:23, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I was reverting your deletion of another person's comment, which is usually bad and usually vandalism. I presumed (incorrectly) that both edits were therefore vandalism and reverted them both. I have no problem with your other comment. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 23:40, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


Check yer email! --Cyde Weys 04:30, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I have responded. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 04:42, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Hrrmmm, still haven't gotten it yet. If I haven't gotten it by tomorrow maybe try resending it? --Cyde Weys 04:47, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

As for Blair, I'm thinking a few more pictures might be good ... luckily, you're in exactly the right position to take 'em. I'm thinking of a picture of Blair Blvd. from one of the third floor overlooks and a pic of the SAC. By the way, do you guys have bomb threats/fire drills fairly often? Back when I went that was a bit of a problem ... --Cyde Weys 04:55, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I already have a picture of Blair Boulevard from the third floor between lunches as well as picture of the cupola. I have a picture of the media center, and I'll have an opportunity to take a picture of the school's SAC tomorrow. However, as of right now, I see no place to put the images, so I'm holding off on uploading them. There hasn't been a bomb threat at the school in at least three years, but there recently has been a problem with faulty ffoire alarms as well as small intended trash can fires. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 05:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Just upload them to Wikipedia under GFDL-self. Even though they're orphaned they'll stick around at least for a few days. Wikilink 'em here so I see em (and so they have file links). That'll do it. Then we can add them to the article as necessary. And you haven't had bomb threats in the past three years? Wow, either Blair is getting a bit better or the administration isn't telling you everything :-P And by the way, that pic of the computer lab you uploaded made me more nostalgic than I have any right of being. Are you in the Magnet? --Cyde Weys 05:04, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
The fourth paragraph of my Identity page probably gives that away. I'll upload the images momentarily. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 05:11, 29 April 2006 (UTC)