User talk:Timeshift9

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Welcome to my talk page, where you are welcome to leave a message at the bottom of this page for any reason at all and I will attempt to respond ASAP. If you leave a message here, I will most likely reply here.

4,700 watchlist articles and counting :)

There is no cabal. Mmmm, cabal....

Election maps[edit]

Hi, saw your comment here. You might already know but historical maps are all available here on the fantastic website created by User:Pappubahry. Frickeg (talk) 07:38, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Oooh, thankyou very much! Timeshift (talk) 07:34, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

For example? I haven't spent time looking through every map, but they seem to work fine for me. Perhaps a browser issue? Frickeg (talk) 03:24, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not as knowledgeable as you about Adelaide metro boundaries, but I've been comparing with Psephos maps and they seem pretty normal; maybe slightly different here and there, but otherwise fine. By "skew", is it a major noticeable thing, or something smaller? Frickeg (talk) 04:03, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Looks like maybe a bit of a shortcut taken. You could always ask User:Pappubahry and see how he's organised them. Frickeg (talk) 05:14, 19 December 2015 (UTC)


Initial LibStar talkpage message that he removed: Per my edit summary here - you can't seriously think the sentences were untrue. if you didn't, instead of slapping CNs, leaving the article looking a mess when it shouldn't be, why don't you actually redirect that time/energy to adding refs, like in the link?!. Based on your lack of any substantial response in your edit after that, it appears that you really don't care to do it, and much prefer slapping random cite tags to whatever you can find instead of finding and adding refs. I mean, I looked at your last 1,000 contribs, all you do is remove content and add cite needed tags and create AfDs and never actually add to the content of the encyclopedia. Every substantial edit you've made (those in bold), as far as your last 1,000 contribs go, is simply content removal in the minus bold red, as well as creating articles for deletion which is literally one hundred percent of your plus green bolds. CNs and content removals instead of ref finding, and AfD creation, is all you seem to do. It makes your contributions appear negative/content destroying (deletionist) instead of positive/content building. I realise the former is the easier path would attract those with nefarious intent, so how about you try and make an effort to take the harder path - put some effort in to actually improve the encyclopedia for once, LibStar. Timeshift (talk) 16:25, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

you don't control how I edit. I didn't even put all those citation needed tags in the Hewson article. Uncited content especially in BLPs can be removed under WP:BURDEN. Wikipedia unfortunately is full of often erroneous statements or blatant pov that is not helpful. Your aggressive tone is unwelcome and you won't be changing my style of editing or content I edit. do not contact me again. LibStar (talk) 16:31, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
I also made further remarks here. And no, I don't control how you edit, but if your response to the concerns I have over how you interact with wikipedia in such systemic, widespread content cn tagging and content removal, is to say, I don't control how you edit, tells me that either you fail to acknowledge the concerns with your edits, or you are making such edits intently at the detriment of the encyclopedia. We all remove uncited content, but we all also don't focus on just CNs and removals at the expense of absolutely everything else - but you do... odd. Don't quote me WP rules and say uncited content can be removed, clearly this is the case, and is how you get away with what you've been doing, but instead of taking that cheap, insulting path, how about you actually redirect that effort in to ref finding. IT REALLY IS NOT THAT HARD! I'm not sure what you have against finding refs. It's like you prefer to bring the image of wikipedia articles down with cn tags rather than build the image of wikipedia articles up with adding refs. Why on earth wouldn't you do the latter? Seems more and more suspicious. Timeshift (talk) 16:40, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
for the second time , please do not contact me again. Is it that hard. You need to WP:CHILL. LibStar (talk) 16:42, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
a) Is adding refs instead of going around and adding only citation needed tags and removing content so hard? If finding a ref is so hard and goes against what you believe in, then wikipedia is the wrong project for you. b) You need to stop WP:RULEing the regulars. You're clearly indicating you repeatedly have no reply, at all, to the concerns raised which just implicates you and your motives. Very poor form LibStar. I and hopefully others will be keeping a close eye on you from now on. Timeshift (talk) 16:46, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Why do you find it so hard. I've asked you 2 times to stop contacting me. Shows a high degree of agitation and lack of self control on your part. For the 3rd time stop posting on my talk page. You are now pushing harassment. LibStar (talk) 16:53, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

I had a look here, you remove ANYONE'S post who doesn't agree with you... wow. Admins really should look over your history more closely. Timeshift (talk) 16:54, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Ha, straight back to it. Incredible. Timeshift (talk) 17:01, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

I think that someone should look through LibStar's contributions and reinstate any verifiable material that he has erroneously deleted only because it did not cite a source (if there is any such material). Whoever does this should of course add references to support the reinstated material. I do not, however, have the time or patience to personally trawl through more than 45,000 edits looking for mistakes, so I won't be the one doing it. LibStar should not be accusing anyone of "agitation" as that is a very nasty personal attack. In this instance it appears entirely unfounded. James500 (talk) 17:30, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Agree with all aspects. I don't have the time or patience either - pretty much because he has the upper hand... it takes 2 seconds to add a cn tag but actually takes 1-5 minutes to find and add a cite. On the math, if it took an optimistic 1 minute for each of the 45,000 edits, that would be 31 days straight. Yeah, nah. He knows exactly what he is doing. Someone that literally never adds content and only adds cn tags/removes content/deletes articles can only naturally be seen as a negative to the project. Hard not to feel anything but that they want to nefariously damage wikipedia. Their above so-called replies and their own talkpage deletion of anything negative just backs that up. It's a real shame. Timeshift (talk) 17:37, 28 December 2015 (UTC)


He may not have been an MP - it's too early in the morning here for me to chase it up individually, but at least at the beginning it was possible to be part of the ministry without it. The redlinked Henry Gawler in the same list is one example of this I have researched. The Drover's Wife (talk) 23:53, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

I suspected something along those lines. Timeshift (talk) 00:01, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
That's right, Gawler and Turner (Frederick Foote) were both solicitors to the Lands Titles Office and not MPs – see Responsible Government in South Australia, Volume 1, page 108. --Canley (talk) 00:12, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Jamie Briggs[edit]

Point taken! re scandal vs indiscretion vs incident. The ABC seems to like scandal though:

- (Merry Christmas!) 220 of Borg 05:23, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Personally I used scandal as the term controversy is shunned upon. Though with little information (at this stage), overseas incident is an acceptable term for the moment. Timeshift (talk) 05:27, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Indeed, given time it may become a more scandalous, rather than controversial, incident. 220 of Borg 05:32, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Does this even have precedent? Has a federal MP quit a government ministry due to an incident that hasn't even been revealed? On a side note I find it ironic that in comparison Briggs can crash tackle another MP, and lie about it for 2 months, without consequence. Also, the SA Liberals need yet another issue as much as a hole in the head. Here in SA the Liberals' existence is just one long never-ending amateur hour. Timeshift (talk) 05:37, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Well that didn't take long. Should we still call it an "overseas incident" or should we upgrade the terminology? Timeshift (talk) 06:21, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

You mean this alleging 'sexual harassment? Yeh, I heard on 2GB he told her she had "beautiful eyes" and put his arm around her. He's 'dead', his wife will 'kill' him. His BLP doesn't mention the missus or 3 kids, yet. 220 of Borg 06:40, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
You'd think especially after the crash tackle cover-up attempt, Briggs would realise it's better to just admit it, as it will come out either way. Not admitting to it just compounds the issue. Seems like a long way to go on this. Gotta say, he looks like a pig - SA's answer to Troy Buswell? Needless to say, after just 7 years his political career is over. Who wants Mayo? My money is on Matt Williams. Timeshift (talk) 06:45, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

"It is understood Mr Briggs told her she had piercing eyes, then later put his arm around her. As the trio was leaving, Mr Briggs gave the female public servant a kiss on the cheek."[1] Timeshift (talk) 06:57, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Not what a married man with 3 kids should do. Troy Buswell I can't recall hearing of before, quite a 'controversy' section there. For politics I vote, usually, that's about it! 220 of Borg 07:27, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

And it begins. Fraser's trousers already...! Timeshift (talk) 07:33, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

The Media never forgets! They're probably scouring WP for 'dirt' right now! 220 of Borg 07:41, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Abbott sleeping off a hangover in his parliamentary office during the stimulus vote. Gold. Yet some crazies still think he's the messiah. Lol. Timeshift (talk) 07:45, 29 December 2015 (UTC)


I'm uploading a bunch of images on SA politicians at the moment - do you prefer File:AAKirkpatrick.JPG or File:Andrew Kirkpatrick.jpg? I can't decide either way, and since you uploaded the first one I thought I'd ask. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:18, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Ugh, what a choice. A larger but grainier photo or a smaller but less grainy photo, both competing for a generous two out of ten. Can you include both in the article? If so, the choice for infobox is a toss-up. Timeshift (talk) 07:28, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, can't be too picky when it comes to this era, which is why I thought I'd at least upload it and then pick later. Same goes for File:EHCoombe.jpg and File:EH Coombe 2.jpg. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:32, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
EHCoombe.jpg. Can you try and include secondary photos in said articles? Timeshift (talk) 07:36, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
They're probably a bit short for that at the moment. Still, at least the alternatives are up if somebody does expand them in future. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:53, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks so much for the feedback about the images. I found a bunch of random images of people I was interested in in a public domain book, and then discovered the State Library's public domain portrait archive, and since I have all this time on my hands over summer it's been a great way of killing time and brightening up these articles we've been working on. I've been really trying to find good quality images and crop them so they look good as portraits rather than just whacking whatever is there in the article. I've got 124 more images still to go in my current batch, and I am...a bit over a third through this collection. I'm enjoying putting faces to all of these names, and it's nice to know it's appreciated!

I am so absolutely not done with SA politics. It's become a bit of an obsession, and I still have a long way to go before I'm happy. My main projects at the moment are adding these images, expanding that batch of stubs you created (which have proven very useful for slowly expanding that content), and I want to go back and tidy up some of the older MP articles so I don't have to delve through ten paragraphs to find out where they sat and when and what offices they held. I'm also periodically delving into the by-elections: I just did West Adelaide state by-election, 1901 and Flinders state by-election, 1901 just the other day to accompany some of my MP rewrites. (Also, I'm going through the former councils so I can tie them in with the MPs who served on them - just did District Council of Orroroo and District Council of Carrieton last night. A lot of obituaries love to oh-so-helpfully go "Joe Bloggs was the local mayor for some time way back in the day" so these serve multiple purposes.) I've stopped on the state ministries for a while but I'm still making my way through them (with some help from User:Linkqer), and I also really want to finish my so-incomplete Lang Labor Party (South Australia) and break out state articles on the 1917 and 1931 splits to explain SA's particular flavours of carnage there.

The maps, I'm afraid, I can't help with: I have absolutely zero talent at that. I'm also better at more specific topics than really broad ones, but creating government articles is something I'm open to doing, especially with some help. I've just discovered the State Library of WA's spectacular clearinghouse for discarded books (I bought 50 on the first go), so when I pick up some SA-specific content I'll probably be able to do more there. (This is also why I might be mildly useful on 1943 - I grabbed a lengthy history of the Nats and a bio of Harold Holt that might reference that election, and they had umpteen books on Menzies which I didn't know I'd want to read but could always go back for in a few days.)

Plenty to go yet! Thanks for the message - I really appreciate the feedback. The Drover's Wife (talk) 15:05, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

I actually think those ones could be okay, much as Beneaththelandslide was a massive loss: Playford and Dunstan were such massive personalities that the biographical parts of their stories tend to take up so much space that it shrouds out what their ministries as a whole were up to. They've both got book biographies out the ears (hopefully on my next clearinghouse raid), so I'll see what I can do when I get my hands on some. (As another example, I have Jeff Carr (the Brian Burke minister who is still sans article)'s autobiography sitting around, and I'm really interested to read it because he's such a boring character that he totally misses getting caught up in the drama of Burke's high-flying showboating and talks about what he and his colleagues actually did. I suspect it'll be bloody invaluable if we ever write an article on the Burke Government). Unfortunately, the only SA autobiography I've got so far is Brian Chatterton's, which is too obscure to do much on its own. I'll probably get stuck into some of the smaller fish first with governments: much easier to do, say, Richards Government, than Dunstan! The Drover's Wife (talk) 15:25, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, I am most of the time. I find SA isn't too bad in that department, mainly because the content was pretty sucky until all of us descended on it comparatively recently in Wikipedia terms (after the breadth of our coverage had expanded a bit) but I add it where I see it, and I'm trying to do some of the redlinks as I go (like doing the by-election if I do an MP who was elected at it). The Drover's Wife (talk) 15:38, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Hey, I created stubs on the missing early SA elections so we could fill them in over time and link them up with the content we do have, but I'm finding Trove incredibly frustrating for those early elections: it seems all the media (including the Adelaide press) covered the races at an individual electorate level and gave bugger all (or at least that I can find) easy useful coverage of the election as a whole. If you get a chance sometime, even just some small edits could brighten up those stubs a lot. The Drover's Wife (talk) 13:05, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

happy new year[edit]

I'd like to have what you are on, have a look at the format of the barnett article, you sure you wanted to do that? JarrahTree 01:50, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

What, remove his first name and leave just his last name when mentioning him throughout the article? WP:MOS. Are you trying to make a subtle point i'm not getting? Timeshift (talk) 01:54, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
Nothing whatsoever to do anything with the name issue. The ip stuffed up a format of a ref, and you simply repeated the same fmt issue. All I did was ask you to have a look at your edit, ass I assume you didnt spot the fmt change by the ip, or your reinstating it. JarrahTree 02:00, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
A couple of oopsies there, all good now? :) Timeshift (talk) 02:03, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
nah, i dont read fully articles about people i have little respect for, I think the wits will make a mess of the country at a state and federal level, give you lots of chances for a lot of editing and making more tyops to make others happy for the next 18 months or more... :) cheers JarrahTree 02:06, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
Found another boo-boo, fixed? :) By the way, though i'm often guilty of it, you really should read articles about those in power that you have little respect for. Know thy enemy. Before going future-forward, one must know the past - or - to prevent making mistakes in the future, one must know the mistakes of the past... et al. Timeshift (talk) 02:11, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

MOS on picture placement[edit]

Hi, I see you reverted my change to Liz Penfold quoting the MOS. Can you point me to the relevant section please? The reason I ask is that having an image ahead of any texts causes problems when interfacing from Wikimeida Commons; this caused the MOS to be changed some years ago and I'm concerned that it may have been changed back without anyone realising the consequences. Best Wishes S a g a C i t y (talk) 15:43, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Here. Timeshift (talk) 15:49, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
Thanks S a g a C i t y (talk) 20:59, 1 February 2016 (UTC)


Thank you for drawing that to my attention. As I hope is obvious from my edit history, that revert from me was not at all intentional. It is of course vandalism and I did not put that back on purpose. Apologies for not paying close enough attention. Vaze50 (talk) 12:00, 7 Aprizl 2016 (UTC)

Editwarring infoboxes[edit]

Consensus was clearly established for the new infoboxes on the 2015 and 2020 UK election articles. There is an ongoing discussion for the 2015 article about changing that. You are very welcome to input into that discussion, but you should not WP:EDITWAR. You should establish consensus to change before imposing changes. This is standard Wikipedia policy. Bondegezou (talk) 18:52, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I will continue to revert as the israeli-only infobox has no consensus - you claim consensus on the talk page yet all i see is a small amount of talk and a lot of you riding roughshod in attempts to dominate. Repeatedly claiming consensus doesn't = consensus. See Talk:United Kingdom general election, 2015#Lead infobox. Timeshift (talk) 18:54, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
The key discussion is at Talk:United Kingdom general election, 2015/Archive 3, but there's more in the other Talk archives. When that discussion was going on, that was the next election article. I also suggest again that you review WP:EDITWAR and WP:BRD. Bondegezou (talk) 18:59, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
Well done for ignoring Talk:United Kingdom general election, 2015#Lead infobox, for not discussing and for edit warring, and for continuing to ride roughshod. The infobox you're reverting to is used only for Israeli elections and no other. The rest of the world uses the infobox that 99% of all UK election articles use. Timeshift (talk) 19:04, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
You are welcome to put forth your arguments for what infobox to use. I note you are mistaken about the Israeli-style infobox, which has also been used for Dutch elections, while other infoboxes formats have also been used elsewhere (e.g. check out the discussions around the recent Spanish election). Whatever your views, please respect the community and do not make changes until consensus has been established. Bondegezou (talk) 19:08, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
This has now gone to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Elections and Referendums. Truly embarrassing, what a disgrace. Timeshift (talk) 19:14, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Australian PM Timeline[edit]

Hi - could you explain your reversion of Template:Timeline Australian PM Horizontal? I thought my version (with multiple terms for the same PM on the same line) was more informative - it shows much more clearly, for instance, the multiple terms of Deakin and Fisher. Thanks, LookLook36 (talk) 12:38, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

This just doesn't look right... particularly Menzies' second term. I doubt it's done like that in any other countries. But no matter, i'm not sure why it was even changed to a horizontal format. I've changed it back to the prior vertical format and added a comment to the article talk page. Timeshift (talk) 13:14, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Paul Keating East Timor Controversy section[edit]

No problem, thank you Timeshift I'll rework that section on Keating and East Timor so that it respects more WP:NPOV and WP:BALANCE. I agree, it needs more references to support both points of view. Thanks for the advice, cheers Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:14, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

I still don't see how you could add more than the current existing East Timor content to this article without it becoming a clear WP:POVFORK with WP:WEIGHT issues. Instead of another add and revert, I would strongly encourage bringing your proposed additional East Timor content to this talk section first to see if there's any chance of it gaining WP:CONSENSUS traction. Until then, Timeshift (talk) 05:24, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Cheers, I've just reinserted that section on Mr Keating and East Timor. It's now been rewritten to observe WP:NPOV, WP:BALANCE, WP:BLP and WP:NEUTRAL - thanks Timeshift for highlighting that. Hopefully it is a lot more balanced now (oh, and changed the title). Please do not remove until it has been discussed on the talk page, so as to avoid another add and revert. I've added in about 4 articles that offer the opposing viewpoints, I may try to find more if people think it doesn't meet WP:NEUTRAL. IMHO a lot better to include this here, as opposed to it having it's own page in a larger article, or include with an article about Australia's role with East Timor generally. Please feel free to tidy up or to add more articles if you can find them. Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:03, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Reverted - massive issues, WP:WEIGHT for starters - what rises East Timor above any other Keating-era area of discussion that it should elevate above all others to get its own section, and have an additional 3 lengthy paragraphs - very WP:POVFORK. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. I already said theres no WP:CONSENSUS for your disputed change to the status quo, and to take proposals to this talk page so it can be worked out without starting an edit war. Remember that the onus is on you to get consensus for your disputed change from status quo and that the status quo is what is kept until such time as a new consensus might be found. Edit: Re-add due to edit conflict and re-revert. DO NOT EDIT WAR. Your change from the status quo is disputed so you cannot re-add it, the onus is not on me, it is on you. You have been around for a decade, you should know which way WP:CONSENSUS works. Cease your edit warring NOW or your actions will be escalated to admins. Timeshift (talk) 09:06, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

I would ask that you cease from threatening me in such a manner, I've tried to be polite here. You yourself indicated the section had NPOV issues. I've gone to a lot of trouble to fix those, and without discussion, you have removed the section. As you won't discuss it, I'll be raising this as a dispute with the admins. Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:18, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I agree with Timeshift. The material is also missing the somewhat larger points that a) Keating continued the long-standing Australian policy towards Indonesia and b) it was the Indonesians who were responsible for the atrocities, with Australian (unfortunately) having little to no ability to stop them. The referencing is also very poor given that there are now history books, academic works, etc, covering the subject. It's hardly a glorious period in Australian foreign relations, but should be treated fairly. Nick-D (talk) 09:05, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi Nick-D - I am more than happy to include better references, but as you know, Wikipedia certainly accepts newspaper and journal articles as proper sources. As for whether Mr Keating's policy was actually right or wrong, that's not really what I am here for, I just want to reflect that certainly some people saw issues at the time (and I guess some still do). Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:18, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

There's no good reason to use old newspapers (including op-eds by fringe dwellers like Pilger) as references for topics which much better and more recent references are available. To be frank, it makes you look like you're shopping dated material that matches your personal views around rather than seriously trying to develop a high quality and neutral encyclopaedia article. Nick-D (talk) 10:40, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Nick-D I do disagree on some of this Nick D, but I think better to chat about the section back on the Talk page, rather than clog up Timeshift's talk page, I reckon Deathlibrarian (talk) 12:44, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Safe Schools Coalition association with Pedophilia[edit]

Hi There,

Can you explain why you removed my edit. My edit was fairly neutral. It had reference to the ABC news article it had links to queer theory etc.

I would assume your not trying to gloss over the pedophilia agenda?

Any tips would be appreciated. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by FindOutTheTruth (talkcontribs) 08:31, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

You sound just like George Christensen. Anywho... even you cannot bring yourself to attempt to claim your attempted changes were neutral... only "fairly" neutral. Your attempted changes are not neutral and does not even attempt to hide the fact you are cherry-picking references to express your minority anti-mainstream fringe (and dangerous) views. Perhaps look at the article's history and you'll see I was only the first of three users to remove your hate views. The fact your history shows you joined wikipedia and went straight to and only to that article for some opinionated but misinformed soapboxing which appears close to your heart - highly revealing in itself. In any case... the way wikipedia works is in the case of an edit dispute, the existing status quo remains and the contested new changes are kept out, until such time as the user attempting to introduce the disputed changes either a) manages to gain consensus on the article's talk page or b) realises the error of their ways and moves on. I'm not giving any help or 'tips' to the likes of you. Your moral shortcomings more than explain how you manage to convince yourself that your attempted contributions were somehow mainstream-acceptable. I'm sure you're currently sitting there thinking we're all just a bunch of 'queer gender theory marxists' or whatever strained slogan is all the latest rage in the Christensen/Bernardi 'silent majority' quarterly. Timeshift (talk) 08:45, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Don Dunstan[edit]

It was added less than a week ago with a tag. Content should not be added with a tag. It should be added with a source. DrKay (talk) 07:21, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Then take the 30 seconds to do so instead of taking the lazy deletionist way out. Timeshift (talk) 07:22, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
Fuck off. If you think I'm a lazy deletionist then you don't know shit. DrKay (talk) 07:53, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Mackerras pendulum for the Australian federal election, 2016[edit]

I have removed part of your addition to the above article, as it appears to have been directly copied from, a copyright web page. All content you add to Wikipedia must be written in your own words. Please let me know if you have any questions or if you think I may have made a mistake. — Diannaa (talk) 19:31, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Finding it difficult…[edit]

…to give a woolly rat's bum over this election. I like Bill better than Mal, TBH. Malcolm could have been a bit more pro-active in changing Abbot's direction. "Steady as she goes!" is not the clarion call the Titanic needs.

Speaking of Clive Palmer, I'm finding the US election vastly entertaining, which is probably why Trump has done so well, clowns getting more eyeball views than pundits in the eyes of the media beancounters.

The ACT election looks likely to be a bit more fun than this one, moobs aside. The tram is going to be the big issue, and everyone is just waiting to kick Labor in the nuts over this Green-inspired lunacy. --Pete (talk) 22:38, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Yeah if I was a closet Liberal i'd be annoyed too. Just a few days short of not even two years. So now it's the Abbott-Turnbull years - oh the irony! What. A. Waste. Meanwhile, we have mid-high school students that have never seen an SA Liberal government! I'm enjoying the campaign so far... any campaign both full of Liberal disunity and bickering and devoid of Labor disunity is always fun. The problem is thanks to Turnbull we've been in campaign mode since forever with the gun pulled only a week ago - not with a bang, but with a wimper :) Meanwhile, News Ltd and co are just bypassing Labor MPs they're so united, going straight for the wont-be-elected Labor candidates... they had better slow down if they want to run out early. If it were the ABC, just imagine uproar from the silent majority!! Timeshift (talk) 22:54, 12 May 2016 (UTC)[edit]

Hi, I've just removed the last part of your post on this account's talk page. While you are correct to warn whoever is using this account that their conduct could cause problems, stating that you will report them to the media can be seen as a threat, including of WP:OUTING. I am sure that you did not mean for it to be seen as such, but similar posts have led to the people making them being blocked in the past. I've blocked this account to prevent the disruption from reoccurring, and please let me know if it crops up again. Regards, Nick-D (talk) 08:23, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Timeshift (talk) 08:30, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Required notice[edit]

Information icon There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. (Apologies for IP hopping, I'm on a cellular connection) - (talk) 09:52, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Wholesale revert[edit]

Then can you retain the improvements I made?

I don't understand what it means, again. And what is "alongside"? Contiguous states to NSW? Tony (talk) 03:40, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Feel free to re-add part of it. Usually the party that has a majority in NSW also wins the election. However, it's unusual that the concentration is so high at this election that half of all marginals are there and half again in WS. Timeshift (talk) 03:43, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
I understand the first claim (is it referenced? ... and there are notable exceptions, like 1975/6, arent' there?). But overall it's too complicated for me to understand. "Alongside" won't be understood by readers. Can you have a go at it? Tony (talk) 03:46, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
Factoids like that don't need refs when it's all on wikipedia already. You can go back and look at the member lists and election articles. Yes, there are exceptions, which is why it says usually rather than always. I think it's ok, but if you want to re-word it without removing detail please feel free. Timeshift (talk) 03:48, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
If I do, I'll paste here first. Tony (talk) 05:05, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
How is this? "While federal and New South Wales elections are usually won and lost by the same party at similar times, the 2016 federal election is unusual in that nearly half of all marginal government seats are in NSW, of which nearly half are all in Western Sydney and the other half all in rural and regional areas of the state, with no more than a few seats in contention in each of the other states."

But the logical connection between the first clause and the rest is still unclear here (to me). Wouldn't it be just as good in the lead starting after the first comma? Tony (talk) 07:20, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

New South Wales the 47 of 150 federal seats, not New South Wales the state election...! Timeshift (talk) 07:32, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
NOW i get it. Does this work?

"While the winner of federal elections usually wins a majority of the seats in New South Wales, this federal election is unusual in that nearly half of all marginal government seats are in NSW; nearly half of these are in Western Sydney and the other half in rural and regional areas of the state, with no more than a few seats in contention in each of the other states."

But going by what you say, this would be in order:

"The winner of federal elections usually wins a majority of the seats in New South Wales, a state that apparently holds the key to the upcoming election: nearly half of all marginal government seats are in NSW; nearly half of these are in Western Sydney and the other half in rural and regional areas of the state, with no more than a few seats in contention in each of the other states." Tony (talk) 07:51, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

  • So I'll insert that last one. Can you tweak only as much as needed with your greater knowledge of the topic, then? Tony (talk) 08:20, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Changed it a little, is this ok? "Whilst every federal election after 1961 has been won by those that also won the majority of federal seats in New South Wales, etc etc etc". Timeshift (talk) 17:47, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Louise and Charmian Faulkner disappearance[edit]

Louise and Charmian Faulkner disappearance. This was brought to my attention. I have to agree with the comment on the article's talk page - The Faulkner family or friends of the victims created the article as a way of bring attention to their campaign for justice. Nuke the article? Paul Benjamin Austin (talk) 17:49, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

... why am I being asked? Timeshift (talk) 13:53, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Australian federal election, 2016[edit]

While I recognise and appreciate that you or others have worked on the article for a long period of time, I'd encourage you to check for any factual errors in the original rather than simply assuming my edits are wrong. Mqst north (talk) 13:53, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

See the article talk page. I'd encourage you to appreciate that as others have worked on the article for a long period of time, that you take substantial/large changes to the talk page first and gain consensus to make such changes. Timeshift (talk) 14:00, 28 June 2016 (UTC)


The AEC doesn't register HTVs, unlike ECSA. :) Frickeg (talk) 13:04, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm getting a sense of deja vu... :) Timeshift (talk) 13:07, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


Hi, Antony Green said on TV that there now cannot be another whole-House half-Senate election for two years; although there can be a House-only or a DD whenever. Is that correct?

Also, I'm keen to start this RFC. Can you advise as to pracitcal design? Tony (talk) 09:22, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

First question - yes. Second question - practical design for the infobox, or the RFC? If the latter, I have extremely little experience and wouldn't be of much help. If the former, keep as is with lower house representation except remove those without official party status of five or more total parliamentarians? Timeshift (talk) 13:52, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for your answers. Hmmm ... RfC seems like a lot of work if it's going to end in fizz and drama. I find the endless infobox a disadvantage structurally, and that there's undue weight given to Katter etc, just because they register as a "party" rather than an independent. Tony (talk) 06:18, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
I've participated in many RfCs that i'd claim credit for instigating to varying extents. Perfect example here (with article edits to reflect as such)... I provided the key push-along-the-road contributions at the right points in time to have another RfC generated for the United Kingdom general election, 2015 infobox (!) to use the standard election infobox rather than the israeli/dutch election infoboxes. If you don't want to do the RfC yourself, just kick the can down the road and keep talking about and advocating for it and a numer of others will inevitably agree - the RfC will eventually be generated by someone else who agrees as strongly. It's not gaming the system, it's simply knowing how to get maximum efficacy from the system. Just call me Glenn Druery :) Nah, I like to think that unlike MANY users on here, i'm very much a contributor. Purist deletionists and procedure addicts can and do occasionally serve a worthy purpose... they allow me to avoid taking the low road - and I save time, effort and sanity in the process. Timeshift (talk) 06:38, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
By the way, my opinion of only those with official party status getting in to the infobox is simply an attempt at compromise... something very lacking when it comes to our federal infoboxes and many editors. If I had it my way (and I once used to as I created 90% of the election articles) i'd have simply just Labor and the Coalition. They're the only two to have ever formed/led governments in over a century of history, and the only two to appear to be capable of doing so in the foreseeable future, and as far as I know we are the only country that actually produces a two-party preferred vote - and what's more the 2PP far outweighs the primary vote as a method to predict or expect an approximate number or percentage of seats. If anyone is unhappy with Australia's 2PP method, they should look at the Swan by-election, 1918 and think of the tories - who introduced full preferential voting specifically and unapologetically to avoid spoilage between the non-Labor vote and increase chances of Coalition victories - yet as soon as the system they introduced begins to advantage Labor for the first time after a century of patriotic service to king and country, they want to ditch it (mark my words, OPV in the Senate was implemented so as to normalise a federal OPV, and are now just waiting for the right time to make the House OPV too). But I digress... even at this year's election the non-ALP/non-LNP primary vote in the lower house was only 23% - less than a quarter - the majors still took more than three quarters of the primary vote. So until we foresee, or get, back-to-back national 2PP results that exceed 60-40/40-60 and/or the combined Labor/Coalition primary vote falls below 50 percent, the 2PP system/calculation is clearly not anywhere near broken, far from it. My 2c. Timeshift (talk) 06:47, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
I agree with all of that. And let me thank you for your untiring work on the 2016 federal election articles. Tony (talk) 07:35, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
For several reasons I actually took a step back following election day this time around... contribution-free for 16 days afterward. It was very interesting to see how our ever-more-comprehensive-and-detailed content and record number of editors positively affected the quality and quantity of post-election contributions. Consistency among similar articles is immeasurably better than ever, which appears to have really provided templates for even novice users to easily contribute worthy content. I really was pleasantly and unexpectedly surprised at how many edits were made yet there were so few corrections I needed to make upon my 18 July return - even anon IP edits! As far as WP OzPol is concerned, it's a little sad I know, but I imagine what i'm feeling is somewhat similar to what parents feel when their offspring get their drivers license and start staying out some nights. In the past few years on OzPol i've done what I would have previously considered rather comparatively esoteric. I can't believe how detailed SA state politics has become, WP is immeasurably the most comprehensive resource for it now and makes the website look like it was created in five minutes. Where to from here? Turnbull government-type articles for historic SA state governments? Seems like a logical progression considering how exhaustively comprehensive OzPol content is now - it has come a long long long LONG way over many years. It feels like finding worthy but non-existent subject areas to contribute from scratch to are as rare as hens teeth now. SA govt articles sounds good in theory, but getting the sources would be a whole new level of challenge, and that's an understatement. I'm not sure I have the drive and committment for such a challenge. Adding new content as new content becomes available, whatever OzPol subject/area it may be, is not anywhere near as satisfying and for the first time (that i've noticed) seems to be well handled by the inevitable imminent content contributor(s) and the inevitable imminent follow-up fix/correction contributor(s). Rates of vandalism detection and removal are sky-high. For the first time i'm feeling a little useless on here. Despite semi-regular sabbaticals (more in the past few years), perhaps the larger post-election sabbatical simply magnified how incredibly small and insignificant my role on here has become. Simply tinkering at the sides gets tedious after a while. This rant had been surfacing for a few days now, sorry this thread copped it :) Timeshift (talk) 08:42, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
It's been a significant role. All good. Sorry, do you mean "South Australian" by "SA"? Tony (talk) 06:00, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
As always. Certainly not South African :) Timeshift (talk) 06:06, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

The election[edit]

I imagine you are enjoying teh lulz? :-) --Surturz (talk) 04:48, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Turnbull doing the crossbench dance when he didnt need to! So much for majority or nothing! I've been very amused with the various outcomes across the country. SA, wow... the worst Liberal Party of Australia seat and likely 2PP result in SA history :O 67% in Kingston?!?! Double digit margins in Makin and Wakefield? So much for the Gillard-born-in-Adelaide 2010 election theory! Oh the lulz! Better than any fiction! I can't believe how psephologically fascinating and interesting this election has been! Best. Loss. Ever. Timeshift (talk) 21:11, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Susan Templeman[edit]

Do we need a formal process to undelete Susan Templeman, or can we just do it now that it looks like she will win and the article would be created again anyway? Once it is exposed again, it can be improved and updated. Thanks. --Scott Davis Talk 14:55, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Honestly not sure on the technicalities of that, but seems to be resolved now. Timeshift (talk) 13:51, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for August 21[edit]

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Cabinet of South Australia, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Leader of Government Business (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 10:29, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Reference errors on 22 August[edit]

Hello, I'm ReferenceBot. I have automatically detected that an edit performed by you may have introduced errors in referencing. It is as follows:

Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can report it to my operator. Thanks, ReferenceBot (talk) 00:26, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Mike Rann[edit]

Information icon There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. LibStar (talk) 03:34, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

My ANI reply: I can't believe this contributor is so one-eyed! I am disputing the changes considering their repeatedly mischievous and increasingly POINTy past-few-days-of-history with the article (see article edit summaries and article talk page contributions - ensure when doing this everything is noted rather than skim-reading it and forming a potentially misguided conclusion). As their changes are disputed they require a consensus. If they believe their intentions have been and shown to be consistently pure and they have displayed required valid corrections, then perhaps they should wonder why after all this time, still nobody else has come along and agreed with them yet. Where's the consensus replies from other contributors that they believe they deserve? "Build it and they will come"... or WP:DONTBEADICK and they will come? Clearly they have not convinced anyone... perhaps they should reflect on their behaviour as to why this is. Their initial attempts to make changes were met with evidence to the contrary, having to correct them around six separate times for six separate wikipedia guidelines! It is clear that once this decade-long user experienced six guideline corrections in a row, they increasingly turned POINTy. Again, to anyone who looks in to this, I implore them to read the article edit summaries and article talk page contributions to see how much this user continued to change trajectory after each guideline correction. Massive glass jaw/pride it would seem... it's clear they just cannot handle being corrected, particularly repeatedly. If they're right, they would get that consensus and this would all go away. So they should ask themselves why that hasn't and isn't happening...? Timeshift (talk) 04:16, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

September 2016[edit]

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Mike Rann. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Please be particularly aware that Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states:

  1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made.
  2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. -- Dane2007 talk 04:23, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, but WP:POINT says to wait for consensus. The onus is on the content changer to wait for consensus before re-attempting to make that change. I'm not going to play their game and run around looking for and presenting references just to have them move on to another one without so much as an acknowledgement. Despite a few days having passed, there is still a complete lack of any users agreeing with LibStar's raised points on the article's talk page. If their changes are so black-and-white correct then I would have expected several Wikipedia:WikiProject Australian politics users to have agreed with them by now and a consensus formed. Not a single ozpol user, or even a single user at all for that matter. I note that despite LibStar raising the ANI, you warned him first - was that just random? Timeshift (talk) 04:46, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
LibStar, don't you get it? I'm not going to play your increasingly tedious POINTy games. I corrected you on the first six issues you raised with the correct guidelines - six times - which you didn't even acknowledge each and every time, and became increasingly POINTy which is clearly observable on the article's talk page. After the first six times correcting your incorrect understanding of wikipedia's article guidelines which made you increasingly POINTy, I had every right to disengage. I don't deal with tantrums nor should I. If you're so sure you're right and you're not being underhanded then you should be able to easily manage consensus without me. As you're so sure of yourself, you shouldn't have any issue waiting for consensus from other users - very reasonable. I drew the line and refused to continue to play your increasingly tedious games. After I provided half a dozen corrections to your first half dozen issues, you admitted you were encouraged to look deeper/be POINTy. I'm not going to and am not required to continue playing your games. I'm not going to go around playing your reference games. If you're right you'll get consensus from others. But it won't be from me which all things considered is justifiable - if anyone disagrees, just read the article's edit summaries and article talk page contents. No reasonable person would continue to hit their head against that particular brick wall. Timeshift (talk) 04:32, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Senate election 2016[edit]

Why did you undo my changes? I have already negotiated these with a few other contributors and thought I had an acceptable outcome. At least they did me the courtesy of an explanation.,_2016

Oz freediver (talk) 11:47, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

I see you're brand new to wikipedia so i'll go easy on you, except to say that your edits are clear WP:SOAPBOX. Timeshift (talk) 12:30, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

They are relevant facts. It is misleading to say it was "consistent with convention" while failing to mention that it goes against two bipartisan senate resolutions agreeing to changing that convention. The only reason for mentioning that it was consistent with convention is to legitimise the decision, especially if you then insist we must not mention the resolutions.

Oz freediver (talk) 13:12, 20 September 2016 (UTC)


Hi, was just looking at the Preferred PM and satisfaction table, and wondering just what the relationship is between the two sets of stats. Do you know of any work done on it (there must be a long history of the stats by now)? Turnbull–Shorten preferred were 43–31% in the last Newspoll, but 41–26% in Essential—quite a difference for Shorten. But then you look at the corresponding satisfied–dissatisfied for each leader: satisfied was virtually the same between the polls for both, but dissatisfied 9 or 10 points less for both. I'm presuming the companies ask more-or-less the same questions of their respondents. Tony (talk) 13:37, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

I fail to see the question you are asking. I do not know the differences between polling companies' methodology. We are certainly not removing the leader rating tables if that's what you're getting at. Isn't there a 'percent' that needs changing to 'points' somewhere...? Timeshift (talk) 13:50, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
Timeshift: Did I suggest getting rid of those tables? Are you being sarcastic in your comment about percent and points? Not very helpful or collegial. Tony (talk) 05:36, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
So why do you ask..? Timeshift (talk) 09:05, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Sigh, because I value your input, and I'm suprised you seem to be acting negatively towards me. Tony (talk) 09:13, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Ok. a) I do not know of any work done on the relationship between the two stats. b) Different companies have their own methodologies... eg: some companies don't push for a choice when a respondent says neither or undecided while some do, some will include only the first while some include both offered and when pushed, different companies naturally ask the question in differing sentences, some use approve/approval while others use satisfied/satisfaction, some might use Prime Minister and Opposition Leader instead of Malcolm Turnbull and Bill Shorten and vice versa or some might use both title and person, instead of a straight satisfied/dissatisfied question some might use very satisfied, satisfied, somewhat satisfied, neither, somewhat dissatisfied, dissatisfied and very dissatisfied, and collate the first three as satisfied and the last three as dissatisfied which would produce somewhat different results... very much et al. There are just so many more variables when it comes to asking an inherently subjective opinion of a leader's performance. Is any of this new to your thoughts on the issue or do you have more particular questions you'd like to ask? Timeshift (talk) 09:21, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. I realise now that I was under the mistaken belief that the "preferred PM" is mathematically calculated from the negative/positive numbers. Silly me. All is clear now. What you wrote is informative and interesting, and has helped me to understand it more. Sorry it took so much writing for you. Tony (talk) 09:31, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Really? What gave you the impression that preferred/better PM is calculated from satisfaction/approval/dissatisfaction/disapproval? Sorry but I didn't realise this was the essence of your initial post. To me it came across as questioning the worthiness of the inclusion of PM and/or leader polling tables - apologies. Timeshift (talk) 09:38, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
  • I must have expressed myself poorly. What gave me that impression was that I've seen composite figures (in the press, I think) arrived at by minusing one figure from the other. I was worried that this didn't seem to add up in the table. I understand now. Tony (talk) 09:41, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Ahh, I believe your composite figures by minusing one figure from the other refers to "net satisfaction" (net sat), which is a media creation rather than a polling statistic. Some media outlets, particularly The Australian, prefer to use this, which I vehemently disagree with. Say a leader has a 35% approval and 40% disapproval... that would be a net sat of –5% (note the minus). 40% approval and 35% disapproval would be a net sat of 5%. But a 45% approval and 50% disapproval would also be a net sat of –5%, as would a 30% approval and 35% disapproval. A 30% approval and 25% disapproval would be a net sat of 5%, as would 50% approval and 45% disapproval. Any net sat figure can cover a wide range of sat/dissat figures, yet sat/dissat figures can only provide one net sat figure. The Australian started using net sat during the Abbott opposition years to hide Abbott's massive static disapproval rating (higher than the PM) and make him look more or less on par with the PM. Using net sat (a confusing term to most) doesn't look anywhere near as bad or make anywhere near as much sense as a disapproval rating of 50-60% (which any layman understands). Timeshift (talk) 09:55, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. I agree with your suspicion about the utility of that stat. Tony (talk) 10:18, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
And ... here's the source of my fuzz, I realise. Seems like a good analyst, otherwise. Tony (talk) 02:11, 27 October 2016 (UTC)


Hello Timeshift9, I was just looking at the Mike Baird article and noticed the rating figures table is very out of date but could not work out how to update via the ref used. I've noticed you do a lot of poll updates and wondered if you could help there please? JennyOz (talk) 02:45, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

There's no blanket rule on how to update all the types of tables. Trial and error got me and others where we are today. You can use more than one ref. Is there anything in particular you have an issue with? By the way, polls for voting and approval have completely crashed for both Baird and Turnbull, it's so well deserved. Timeshift (talk) 09:07, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Update to an entry[edit]

I'm just posting here because I cannot work out if or how to write a personal message to you consult you about this matter. I have noticed that one of the pages to which you have contributed quite a lot has had a personal tragedy recently so that the current information is no longer correct, but I can't think how this should be recorded in the entry regarding the person. (I would rather discuss privately if possible out of respect for the family involved.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chelseawoman1 (talkcontribs) 06:41, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Australian politics/party colours/SA Greens[edit]

Ambox warning blue.svgTemplate:Australian politics/party colours/SA Greens has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Frietjes (talk) 01:57, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

ArbCom Elections 2016: Voting now open![edit]

Scale of justice 2.svg Hello, Timeshift9. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2016 election, please review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC)


Information icon There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. —MelbourneStartalk 10:49, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Why did you change Greens to Green on a few pages?[edit]

I noticed that you made this change on a few pages. What was your thinking? Superegz (talk) 22:29, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I thought i'd fix a consistency blip and remove the superfluous "s" from the shortened party names in infobox seat listings, ie: Parliament of Australia. We use 'Liberal', 'National' and 'Liberal Democrat' without the s, so I removed the s for Green and Conservative. As each party is linked to its own article and there wouldn't be any reader whose interpretation rests on an ending s, it is clearly superfluous. Timeshift (talk) 04:31, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
I disagree with this. We use "Liberal", "National" because they are short for "Liberal Party", "National Party", etc. The Greens and Conservatives both have the "s" in their name so calling them "Green" or "Conservative" is incorrect. It is correct to say "the Greens MP" or "the Greens senator", not "the Green MP". Frickeg (talk) 06:38, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
I reckon it is correct to say Green or Greens Senator... both are party name short-hand. The term "Green Senator" can be found among Australian media outlets... Green senator Penny Wright to leave politics: SMH, Green Senator Sarah Hanson-Young slammed over asylum seeker treatment comments: Daily Telegraph, Green senator denies she'll stir up Papua strife: SMH, Green Senator and miners on transparency when dealing with overseas governments: ABC. Dropping the s when having already stated a party's name in an article is anti-superfluous and pro-brevity... so why not, if there is no ambiguity? Timeshift (talk) 07:03, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
And "Green leader Richard Di Natale"? It's just wrong, even if the media does it sometimes. They are not the Green Party, they are the Greens. One extra letter is worth it if it means we're accurate. (Also, three of the articles you linked use "Greens senator" in the text and not "Green senator"; the radio interview, obviously, uses neither.) Either way, it is long-standing practice in Australian articles to use "Greens" and never "Green", so this would need discussion if it were to change. Frickeg (talk) 07:15, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
And "Green Senator and higher education spokesperson Lee Rhiannon": Timeshift (talk) 07:16, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
A page which refers to "Greens MPs" right over there on the right. There's no question "Greens MPs" etc. is more widely used, and is more correct. Frickeg (talk) 07:18, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
And "Green Senator and higher education spokesperson Lee Rhiannon": Australian Green Senator Rachel Siewert: Green Senator and animal welfare spokesperson Lee Rhiannon: their site again? Thank goodness we are about to have our new Green senator: again? I would argue there is no consensus for whether there should be an 's' at the end. Not to mention, both Green and Greens are used. The media, even the party, use Green with gay abandon. As for what is more widely used, thank you for admitting that both are correct. "More correct"? Correct is an absolute not subject to gradation. Why such resistance? Is it really worth the effort when you now admit both are correct? As both are correct, let's not get in a frivolous tangle... there is no controversy, so why flirt with the idea of extended pointless time-wasting? Please can we just move on, surely there are better things on wikipedia to move on to. Timeshift (talk) 07:16, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
Look, there is a way that we have been doing this on Wikipedia for years. Gain consensus for a change, please. Frickeg (talk) 08:05, 16 February 2017 (UTC) Frickeg (talk) 08:05, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
But there is no consensus to always use an 's'. The idea that there is one is plain silly. Both are used and interchangeable. Timeshift (talk) 08:06, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Article history has previously had 'green'. There is no consensus for an 's' (or no s either) as you claim. You eventually admitted both were correct yet you still think its worth multiple reverts when no consensus exists? Why not let the next 24 hours of community discussion figure it out? As to why you feel the need to engage in false consensus claim reverts over such a tiny technicality with such fast-pased gusto seems unusual. There is no consensus either way - or both have consensus - really, think about the tiny nature of what you seem to find so abhorrent. With and without the s is and has been used on wikipedia, countless media outlets, and in countless web pages. So why make it such an immediate problem requiring an immediate revert when it seems such a universal non-issue to everyone, not which of least the actual party...? Please take a step back and reflect on the universally interchangeable use by everyone. Timeshift (talk) 08:23, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Article history has previously had "green", you said, but provided no links. Hmm, I thought, I don't remember that. I eventually found it - it has had "Greens" since 2011, so there is clearly a status quo. I wonder who might have changed it? Allow me to quote you from around the same time: if you wish to change the status quo it is incumbent upon yourself to gain consensus. thanks. So I don't think I'm the one making "false consensus claims" here. You don't get to say "oh, the article was like this SIX YEARS AGO, so BRD doesn't apply". Give me a break. You were bold, I disagreed, then YOU wait for consensus. I don't need to explain that to you.
I'm not going to revert again, but I think it is incredibly rich of you to be pulling this, given how often I see you revert newbies with the above kind of rationale. I freely admit that I'm tired and misspoke when I said "correct" and obviously meant "accurate" (as in more accurate), which I don't think anyone could dispute. I still believe, and maintain, that "Green" is wrong, or at the very least the kind of colloquialism we should be avoiding. You are wrong when you say both are used commonly on Wikipedia - I should know since I've been dealing with this stuff for years, and there is consistent use of "Greens" (when I searched for ""green" australia" - admittedly not a foolproof way of doing things - I found one use of "Green" in the 2016 article, and one in the mess that is currently Earthsave (political party)). I notice you have not disputed that "Greens" is more common, here or elsewhere. Forgive me for caring about this stuff, but I do care about consistency and there is absolutely no reason to be inconsistent on this. There is no space issue. You say it's superfluous, I say it's not, and don't you dare talk to me as if I'm having a fit over nothing since you clearly care just as much. Obviously I'm worked up right now, which is why I'm not going to deal with this any further tonight, but you'd better believe I will be raising it elsewhere to establish firmly what I'd argue is already a long-standing consensus. Frickeg (talk) 09:29, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
OK, last thing for tonight, but for the record: 235,000 hits for "greens senator", 13,000 hits for "green senator". There is clearly a preference. Frickeg (talk) 09:53, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
When I call implicit consensus it is over something objectively incorrect, and larger than a single character - 's'. How does a single letter have consensus without so much as a discussion? Can a dash or full-stop have consensus without discussion? So what do you think of The Greens' use of Green? They control their branding, and the very same brand uses Green and Greens interchangeably, which inherently makes both Green and Greens correct - it is their brand after all. If they deem both as valid, who are you to say their own branding is wrong? "Green Senator and higher education spokesperson Lee Rhiannon": Australian Green Senator Rachel Siewert: Green Senator and animal welfare spokesperson Lee Rhiannon: their site again? Thank goodness we are about to have our new Green senator: again? So what do you think of the party's use of both Green and Greens? Somehow you are correct and they do not have supremacy? Do you work for them? If not, where do you get off overriding them, and seriously, why do you feel such a need to take on the party's acceptance of with and without 's' when it's not your place to do so? Please tell me where the platform is to board your bizarre train of thought, because the only semi defence i'm hearing is no 's' despite the party displaying otherwise has no implicit consensus. If you're going to use implicit consensus, then at least use it only when the change is substantial and is, y'know, a real problem. All this over the lack of 's' which the party also interchangeably uses. Using the implicit consensus argument for such an insignificant non-concern, an 's' which the party itself is interchangeably fine with (thank you for your research, 13,000 primary source examples is far from an oversight - you have clearly demonstrated my point), is not a pattern an editor would want to form. This is why I really struggle with your major intervention - it really does amount to nothing. Just bizarre. Timeshift (talk) 09:58, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
I disagree with pretty much all of that, especially your characterisation of my arguments and actions, but I do concede it's silly to have so much Drama over one letter, although I continue to feel strongly about the issue. Furthermore I believe we are both now arguing about a lot of points that actually have nothing directly to do with the issue at hand. I regret my part in escalating this to the borders of incivility and hope that we can de-escalate the whole thing. As a result I propose we draw a line under this particular incarnation of discussion, and I will certainly commit to being more measured where it is raised elsewhere. Frickeg (talk) 10:51, 17 February 2017 (UTC)