User talk:Tombseye

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Hey Tombseye,

Can you please join the discussion here? (At the very bottom of the page) Thanks! —Khoikhoi 20:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


Working Man's Barnstar.png The Working Man's Barnstar
Tombseye is awarded this barnstar for his outstanding work on Azerbaijani people, Iranian peoples, and Turkish people. :p (As well as the fact that he was able to address everyone's concerns about the article). Great work! —Khoikhoi 02:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Shirin Ebadi[edit]

Do you have a reliable reference about the ethnicity of Shirin Ebadi? Once I tried to find if she is azeri or not. but even in her autobiography she has not mentioned that she is an Azeri. Be careful she might not be Azeri--behmod talk 03:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC).


Please see here: [1] Grandmaster 09:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Azeris in Iranian cinema[edit]

Hello again. Any advice and info. on Azeris in Iranian cinema? I need to add a little about this topic to the Azeris section on culture. Your input would be appreciated. Thanks. Tombseye 19:43, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Tombseye, Thanks for your offer to re organise the article on Azerbaijani People and apologies for my delayed response, I will try to assist in any way that I can. I’ll look around for photos.

Regarding Azerbaijani Cinema in Iran, if you mean producing films in Azeri, it is none existing in Iran. Perhaps you can write about depiction of Azerbaijanis in Iranian short films and movies. Iranian short movies have been relatively successful in recent years, and almost all of these movies are made with direct initial endorsement of the Islamic government (Ministry Of Culture ) of Iran. You may know that the issue of language and ethnicity being a rather touchy subject in Iran, is not easy to get permissions in production of films in Azeri (Turkish), Arabic or other non Farsi/Persian languages.

In some Iranian movies and short films one might find an occasional depiction of stereotyping of a "Tork" (Azerbaijani) usually in some supporting role and most of time in negative characters. For instance Iran Daily writes [2] :

The film looks like Eastern European films and at the same time presents the Azari culture of northwestern Iran. Azari culture of the characters is evident from the behavior of the cast. For example, the brother of Reyhan’s late husband is depicted as a greatly prejudiced person ....

The above mentioned government run Iran Daily was in center of a controversy over the publication of an article and a cartoon which Turkish speaking Iranians in general and specially Azerbaijanis find quite offensive and led to large anti government demonstrations in most cities of north west of Iran, and Tehran.

Some links for articles and photos on the extents of protests and analysis of the it's cause :

Hope it helps. Please let me know if I can assist on any part of the article. Mehrdad 15:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Azerbaijani people[edit]

I think we may need to cover another aspect of Azerbaijani people. Since Azerbaijan was one of the earliest centers (if not the earliest center) of oil industry, Azerbaijanis are well advanced in the oil business. For example, first minister of gas industry of the USSR was an Azeri Sabit Orujov, the huge oil reserves of Siberia were discovered by academician Farman Salmanov, and now most of the profit to the Russian state budget comes from Siberian oil, and the president of the leading Russian oil company Lukoil is Azeri Vagit Alekperov. He is rated by Forbes magazine as Russia’s tenth richest person, and 122nd richest person worldwide. I understand that the article size has its limitations and you cannot include everything in it, but maybe this also can be reflected as a line or a couple of lines. Grandmaster 18:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I've removed two so far, but I'll let Babak stay, we should ask User:Brandmeister about that one. As for theh barnstars, there's no rules! :D
I'm going to ask a friend of mine if he could let us use some of his images when he doccumented the Nagorno-Karabakh war, hopefully he can have some images of Azeris. Ciao. —Khoikhoi 20:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
ok, you can go ahead and do that right now, I'll email my friend. —Khoikhoi 20:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Don't forget about the History of Armenia! And now you've made the Armenians page look like a stub. Shame on you. —Khoikhoi 20:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with putting Babak into the Azerbaijani people page, because that article is about the present-day Turkic Azerbaijanis. Babak was neither Turkic nor Turkic-speaking. Thus, he rather qualifies for the Tati people article, but not for the Azerbaijani people article. The same goes to various other personalities wrongly classified as "Azerbaijanis", such as Nezami. That's like classifying personalities, such as Rumi or Avicenna as "Afghans" (which is a synonym for Pashtun), only because they were born or lived in what is present-day Afghanistan. If that were the case, then "Avicenna" would have been an "Uzbek", because he was born in what is now Uzbekistan, and Mahmud Kashgari a "Chinese" because he was born in Kashgar (now in China). So either we "expand" the Azerbaijani people article to an extent that is does not focus on the Turkic-speaking Azerbaijanis anymore, or we leave those people out of it. Grandmaster will of course disagree, but if we were to call everyone "Persian" who lived in "Persia" or everyone "Russian" who lived in "Russia", then the Seljuqs would have been "Persians" and not "Turks", and those Azeri academics would have been "Russians". Tajik 21:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Ethnic groups[edit]

Hi, I notice you have an interest in ethnic groups. Have you seen the Joshua Project - it's a project intended on compiling data on all ethnic groups on earth, so as to convert them to Christianity. You should check it out, as least for its population statistics. --Telex 21:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RR#User:Shervink_reported_by_User:Khoikhoi. —Khoikhoi 00:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

No problem, he just got blocked. —Khoikhoi 01:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
You might want to reply to this. —Khoikhoi 17:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I've contacted two admins so far, still haven't heard anything from them. :( —Khoikhoi 22:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
BTW, have you seen this? I say delete! —Khoikhoi 22:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Haha, I'll keep an eye on the page. Sure, I'll upload at least one image right now. —Khoikhoi 23:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


I thought Irano-Afghan was still a valid subdivision of the Caucasoid racial type, prominent in Iran, Afghanistan, and parts of Pakistan. I added it because I thought it would be a key point in the explanation of Afghan racial and genetic origins. Afghan Historian 20:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

hiya tombs sorry for the delay in replying..thanks for all the input. yeah the original 2000 ad crowd were and are some of the best comic writers around..although I am a huge fan of jm demattis and keith giffens and used to love their jla work..I read you are a galactica fan too..quality stuff! I am impressed! anyway..take care and keep in touch Zak 23:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


It seems, Tombseye, that you and I share a lot of common tastes when it comes to movies and books. I also like Raiders of Lost Ark, Lawrence of Arabia, Good, Bad Ugly, and Seventh Samurai. I'm also a big fan of Crime an Punishment, (in my opinion, the second best novel in the Russian language, after War and Peace). I'm also a really big fan of Camus, (however, I like The Plague better than The Stranger). And, until I saw your list, I hadnt met anyone who shared my love of Naguib Mahfouz's Cairo Trilogy. In terms of English literature, I'm into Victorian and early 20th century stuff, like Dickens, Austen, Thackeray, Eliot, Hardy, Trollope, Shaw, Wells, Forster, Woolf, Joyce, Evelyn Waugh and (especially) Graham Greene. I've read G.G. since 8th grade and The Heart of the Matter always manages to reach my top 10 after every revision. I also like Salman Rushdie and VS Naipaul as well as Hanif Kureishi, Ian McEwan, JRR Tokien and the Harry Potter books (Since middle school). When I was still in school, I used to be a real bookworm. Anyway, does any of that stuff appeal to you? And, did you ever do debate in high school? I was a debater at my high school, and I did Policy Debate, which I found rather fun. That turned my attention to postmodern philosophers like Foucault and Heidegger and Being and Time also happens to be a favorite as well. Well I gotta go, so see you later. Just thought I'd chat. Afghan Historian 01:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


*Sigh* it appears another edit war broke out on this page when Tajik objected to the Safavids' Turkic connection. Also, can you have a look at these changes made to the article? Ciao... —Khoikhoi 18:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

How can we protect this page?

Some of the new changest are actually very unacademic. Please see my comments! --Ali doostzadeh 04:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Well you have done a good job.. and I am sure you have learned a lot as well. I Would read those two Iranica articles and give them primacy over unacademic sources and make sure the statements in the article do not contradict it. I think some of the Azerbaijani authors might have a problem with the fact that Armenia is the first state to adopt Christianity and they might want to give the credit to caucasian Albania. Although definitely not a polemical discussion I want to get involved in, but I would just put one or two quotes about Christianity from the Iranica articles I mentioned and erase any unacademic sources. I even put the pg number.. Also you might consider locking the article after making those changes.. BTW not add to your headache, but in the past few days extensive genetic results has come through some Persian media sources about Iranians and Azerbaijanis. These were done through Cambridge university and by some Iranian Azerbaijani scholar doing his Phd these. Suprisinly he found out that Azarbaijanis are genetically the same as Persian speakers and are more distant to Anatolian Turkic speakers... If you want I can translate and provide that information as well. --Ali doostzadeh 05:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Are you talking about the Iranica article? All of it is there and I can email it to you if you wish. Try IE explore and instead of open, do a save-as and then save each page. Then if you have Acro-bat professional, you can merge them into one easily available pdf. Also the source for that article, ISNA (Iranian Students News Agency) , 06-12-2006, news-code: 8503-06068 . I have emailed the relavent group in Cambridge University to get more updates as well. But I think what I provided is sufficient. --Ali doostzadeh 07:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


I think you should also add something on the big difference in self-perspective and discribtion of Iranian Azaris and Azaris from the Republic of Azarbaijan. The ones in Iran mostly view themselves as Aryans and ethnic Iranianc/Iranic while the ones in the the Republic mostly view themselves as a mixed Turkic people.

This I commented on a different page. Meanwhile, because some insist to mention both the name and alleged ethnicity of the cartoonist, Mana -- which Azerbaijani sources admit that he could be only half-Azerbaijani, in any case this Mana guy is from Tehran, which has obviously population from all over Iran -- then identifying by name and ethnicity of the Editor in Cheif, Mehrdad Qasemfar, is also appropriate. Iran's state propaganda agency while announcing Mana being ethnic Azeri, did not do that for the editor, which means he is definitely Persian. This, it should be mentioned on Wiki page. Same goes for some short background info on the newspaper -- that it's Farsi-language, that it's 3rd largest in Iran and it is state-run.

That's why this line should be put back into the paragraph: "and Mehrdad Qasemfar, the Editor-in-Chief of the Farsi-language newspaper "Iran", which is the third largest state-run publication in the country, were dismissed from their positions". Best, --AdilBaguirov 05:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually the ethnicity of Mehrdad Qasemfar is not clear. I have heared he is Azerbaijani and so is about 70% of Iran's newspaper. I will look into this issue more. --Ali doostzadeh 06:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
If Qasemfar were to be Azerbaijani, the ISNA would have mentioned it along with Mana. Instead, in one sentence mentioning both, it alleged only Mana as ethnic Azerbaijani, whilst kept mum about the editor. --AdilBaguirov 07:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
The thing is that it is not a bid deal in Iran to be Azerbaijani. Specially in Tehran where many of the Persians are actually 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants from other provinces and Azerbaijani in particular as well. Many of these jokes are actually made by Azerbaijanis living in Tehran. But I will look into Qasem far.. but I am not 100% and one can even be 1/4 Azerbaijan and 3/4 others and etc.. Also Ayatollah Khaemeni is definitely Azerbaijani, since his last name is Khaemeni (which means his father is from that town of Azarbaijani ) and also I read somewhere that his father did not speak Persian. --Ali doostzadeh 07:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry guys you can not judge the ethnicity of someone from their name but from a report. There are many non-Persians with Persian names and vice-versa. Verify the information. It really seems here like propganda is being spinned, which is sad and awful.


Yeah, sometimes people fight over the dumbest things, and then it turns out that the compromise is just taking it out altogether. I see you've been saying "ciao" as well, ciao! —Khoikhoi 05:37, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

BTW, have you noticed that weird vandal over at Afghanistan—they kept changing it to the Taliban flag and the emir as Mohammed Omar! LOL! —Khoikhoi 05:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I love that page too. No, it just means "Azerbaijanis". Adios! —Khoikhoi 07:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Azeri[edit]

Good luck with your "freelance" work. I hope you will be cooperating with our wikiproject in future as well and thanks for your great contributions. Regards, Grandmaster 08:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the article overall is great, but the pictures are really scarce. We need to do something about it. Btw, what do you think about these people: Hussein Khan Nakhichevanski, Samedbey Mehmandarov, Ali-Agha Shikhlinski, Azi Aslanov. They kind of look cool in the uniform and with big moustaches. Maybe we can include a picture of one of those people in the article? Grandmaster 11:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


The citations are in the archieves I was reading the discourse of the talks and saw a lot. I am to lazy to get them, but I got to tell you there is a lot of aggresive POV, especially from the Republkic of Azarbaijani side. Meh; I could be wrong, but I am not going to kill myself over falicies. Anyways your article was really good and neutral. I just think to honour the matter academically the perspective factor should be noted. I really did not like the other editor's comment it seemed to be pure rhetoric. Do not let me be a wet blanket. I was really impressed by your work. How can we protect these articles?


I just wanted to say thanks for your support vote on the Cape Town article, and when I went to go find out more about you, I saw that you are studying in New York. May I ask where? I'm at NYU m'self. Páll (Die pienk olifant) 16:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

If you go to the New School, do you know a Kerstin? Páll (Die pienk olifant) 05:11, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


Working Man's Barnstar.png A Barnstar for Tombseye
You are recieving this barnstar for your glorious work on Pashtuns, nevertheless there were lot of disputes to be rectified. I didnt know how to send barnstar so I have just had copy and paste it, hopefully you will accept it.. Haider 02:19, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I think Polo will make Pashtuns much gorgeous if added in sports section, what's your idea? Haider 21:29, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Good job[edit]

Early congrats on the Azeris article, if you are not bored of ethnic topics, maybe Persians in future? I am looking forward to some hard-core wiki-ing then! --K a s h Talk | email 23:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah all sounds good..hey I just noticed there is no mention of the connection the name Azer (meaning fire) and Zoroastrianism symbolism and beliefs? --K a s h Talk | email 10:36, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


... for your contribution on the Azerbaijani people page. Once you are finished with that, maybe we should focus on the Tajiks and Kizilbash articles. Tājik 00:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I think there's something else already planned... :D —Khoikhoi 04:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


I've listed it on Wikipedia:Requested copyright examinations, hopefully we'll get an answer soon. To get in on the main page, you have to list it somewhere, I believe Wikipedia:Today's featured article. Heh, I hardly follow soccer at all, it's getting a lot more popular though. :) Adios. —Khoikhoi 04:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

new comments[edit]

Please see the azerbaijani people discussion. I think the is a conflict in wording and I have listed some new sources so that you can put in a wording that acceptable to everyone. --Ali doostzadeh 09:30, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay I think I made it easy for you, see the comment from Encyclopedia that page--Ali doostzadeh 09:36, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia Britannica[3]:Fath 'Ali Shah (reigned 1797–1834), in need of revenue after decades of devastating warfare, relied on British subsidies to cover his government's expenditures. Following a series of wars, he lost the Caucasus to Russia by the treaties of Golestan in 1813 and Turkmanchay (Torkman Chay) in 1828, the latter of which granted Russian commercial and consular agents access to Iran.. The above statement is sufficient for the article. --Ali doostzadeh 09:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Re: Iranian peoples[edit]

No problems Tombseye. Hope there won't be or at least, people go through talks to understand their differences if not able to resolve their differences rather than edit wars.

Thanks for all the efforts you have put into the article. I might not agree with every point in there. But it is a great article with lots of usefull contents and deserves to be an F.A. I wish I had written it. :) Persian Magi 01:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your consideration[edit]

Thank you for your consideration; keep up the good work. I really appreciate your editing and work. It is of great value, I hope you get the great that you deserve.

Anti-Persianism among Pashtuns[edit]

Hello Tombseye, I was speaking with some Iranian wikipedian pals of mine and one of them spoke about recent anti-persianism among Pashtuns in the recent era. He also said that Pashtun Taliban had massacred Persian speakers in Kabul and Balkh. Can you verify this? I was under the impression that while Pashtuns appreciate Persian cultural influences (Durrani's), they have always been fiercley proud of their own language and customs as opposed to any others. This was magnified, in my mind, by Khattak's rebellions against Aurangzeb. Afghan Historian 01:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


By the way, if you like reading good lit, I reccomend Graham Greene's The Heart of the Matter, it's a very tragic yet very thought provoking work. It makes one certainly think about personal morality. Also, if you are into world literature, I reccomend Chinua Achebe's Things Fall Apart and Anthills of the Savannah. Afghan Historian 01:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


Thanks for your view on the matter. I never thought Pashtuns as racist, I just view them as very proud of their culture yet very hospitable, friendly and freedom loving, something about their character that never seems to get covered in the media (intentionally?). Yeah, Greene is good stuff and, although you may get tired of hearing this from many people, but you must be commended for your knowledge on the subject of Pashtuns, Pakistan, and the various Iranian peoples, as well as on the culture of these areas as a whole. One would get the impression that you were actually Pakistani or Iranian, such is your knowledge depth. Well I must go, so farewell and Tamam Shud. If you have been bothered or offended by my long monotonous posts on your page, I'm sorry. Afghan Historian 04:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


Thx 4 yr message. Love to know who this copy-editor is! Tony 07:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Tombseye. I'll add him/her to my secret list of copy-editors. Smile.png Tony 10:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


Hi Tombseye.

You may wish to use this source for Safavids, it is a good one and will answer many questions. Encyclopedia Iranica: Encyclopaedia Iranica: azerbaijan :: azeri turkish viii., Azeri Turkish, Doerfer, G. page 246

The oldest poet of Azeri literature known so far (and indubitably of Azeri, not East Anatolian or Khorasani, origin) is Emad-al-din Nasimi (about 1369 – 1404, q.v.). Other important Azeri poets were Shah Esma’il Safawi “Khata’i" (1487 – 1524) and Fozuli (about 1494 – 1556,q.v.), an outstanding Azeri poet. During 17th – 20th centuries a rich Azeri literature continued to flourish, but classical Persian exercised great influence on the language and literary expression. On the other hand, many Azeri words (about 1.200) entered Persian (still more in Kurdish), since Iran was governed mostly by Azeri-speaking rulers and soldiers since 16th century (Doerfer, 1963-75); these loanwords refer mainly to administration, titles and conduct of war.

As you know, Safavid dynasty started ruling Iran since 16th century. Grandmaster 05:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Images for Azerbaijani people[edit]

Look no further, my friend, the images are here! —Khoikhoi 17:59, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you should replace all of them, just perhaps some of them. Yeah, if I don't hear anything from them in two weeks I'll just go ahead and add the image. After all, I don't like copyright paranoia. ;) —Khoikhoi 05:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, good idea, perhaps the jazz singer as well as her picture doesn't really fit into that section. —Khoikhoi 05:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Same goes for Haji Zeynalabdin Taghiyev. —Khoikhoi 05:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't know about the mosque, try asking Grandmaster as he lives in Baku. As for the refugees, they're from Nagorno-Karabakh, and I know they're Azeris because my friend Luis took them. —Khoikhoi 05:30, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Heh, which refugee picture? There are 3 of them. —Khoikhoi 05:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
He sent me even more depressing (but excellent) images of Chechnya and Abkhazia! —Khoikhoi 05:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh, yeah lol you went to grad school there, didn't you? I've always wanted to see Oxford and Caimbridge. —Khoikhoi 05:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Hahaha, have you ever been to Azerbaijan or Iran? I'd like to go to that area some day. —Khoikhoi 05:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Sounds cool! Make sure to go to Moldova and Transnistria. I'm curious there if most Moldovans identify as ethnic Romanians or see themselves as a distinct ethnic group. Also ask if they call their language Moldovan or Romanian. Plus, there's an interesting community there called the Gagauz, who are a Turkic people. In Ukraine we have the Crimean Tatars. —Khoikhoi 06:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


Hello Tombseye. I've a question/problem to pose to you. Almost every Indian I meet on wikipedia tells me that Aryans never came from outside India and came from within. I tell them all I know on the subject, even that the genetic proof they have is maternal and not patrilineal. I tell them that both Dravidians and Aryans were Caucasoids and came without at different times but they use this against

Richard III (1955 film)[edit]

Thanks for your comments on Richard III (1955 film)s FAC. I've added some citations, just like you said, but as for changing the heading styles and things, well, it's based on Casablanca (film). You might just want to take a look at that. If your opinion still stands, well, I might just alter it. I'll do anything for another support! ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 23:13, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


I didnt finish as I was called, but what you gave is really good and what I may use against my opponents. Thanks! Afghan Historian 23:59, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


Is that so? I guess Wikipedia gets all the extremists. Yeah, it is coming up! I actually am going to be seeing the Bedouins and the Druze, so that will be fun. —Khoikhoi 01:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


World Cup? What's that?

I'm pretty busy at the moment. I'll try to look some time.

Tony 09:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


Try user_talk:birdhurst. He/she is new, but I've seen some good work already. Don't mention me, but just make that very point. Cheers. Tony 12:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Aryan/editing favor[edit]

Could you do me a favor please? Your response on my talk page was responded to by the person I was debating with, Captain Ron. Look at it, and then go to his page and discussion, and look at what I wrote, the last comment paragraph in the entire discussion. Tell me if you think it needs a little work or if it's good enough as a response. I will be most appreciative if you do this for me. Thank you. Afghan Historian 03:35, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


I provided a full link to the source of her picture at her website. I think that should be enough. Grandmaster 12:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


Hi, like I said other than that I have no problems with the article and my oppose can be sratched. When you have no Armenians opposing, that means you really did a fine job. The difference between Tigran the Great's conquest and the Armenian Kingdom itself. Tigran conquered parts of C. Albania and made the rest of the Kingdom a vassal state. Albanian troops were part of his army from then on. But the actual border of the Kingdom before and after Tigran was the river Kura. East of the Kura was Armenia, West of the Kura was C.Albania. That border was intact from 198 BC until 428 AD. Maybe this can be of help: [4] I can't seem to find an online copy of Hewsen's book. Also, of course I would welcome your rewrite on Armenian people. Still it looks better than History of Armenia, which is really in a sad state.--Eupator 18:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for interfering, but the western frontiers of Albania were unstable, so the statement that Kura was the border between Armenia and Albania is inaccurate. See the article from Iranica written by professor Chaumont:
Albania (Iranian Aran, Ar. Aluank), an ancient country in the Caucasus. It was bounded on the north by Ceraunian mountains, an extension of the Caucasus, on the east by the Caspian sea, and on the south by the lower course of the Araxes (Aras); on the west its borders were unstable: The frontier along the Kura (Kor), affirmed by Strabo (Geography 11.14.5) was repeatedly overrun, to the advantage sometimes of Albanians, sometimes of Armenians. [5] Grandmaster 18:52, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
There's no such thing as interfering in Wikipedia, your comments are welcome. I have no problem with what that source is saying. Before Christianity and the 5th century the C.Albanians were regarded as semi-barbarians (mostly on accounts of their strange language) by the Armenians so it's only natural that there were constant border clashes. For example the Northern borders of the Roman Empire were almost always under some sort of attack and often overran.--Eupator 19:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi guys. Not to worry, as the article simply states that at times Armenians exerted control over parts of Azerbaijan during the periods given and wikilinks to Armenian kingdom. We don't have room to put in more details simply b/c the article is way too long and i just shortened it after a lot of editing of the sources etc. At any rate, I think we've got a good neutral situation going so hopefully everyone's happy. Tombseye 19:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Tom. I just noticed this and took at look at the relevant section. One obvious error-95-66 BCE is included in 190 BCE-165 CE, so 95-66 BCE doesn't need to be mentioned. Second, as the Wikipedia pages on Artsakh and Nagorno Karabakh History point out, the Armenian rule extended till 428 AD (the fall of Armenian kingdom). So 165 might be misleading.

As I said, the article looks much improved (compared to a few months ago). --TigranTheGreat 00:47, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Well during 95-66 BC actual territories West of the Kura were annexed and C. Albania was a vassal, all other times the border was Kura until 428.--Eupator 01:43, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Tom. Thanks for the response. I think what I meant is that the 95-66 should be taken out, with 190bc-428ac remaining instead (since 95-66 is included). As Eupator said, eastern Azerbaijan (east of Kura) was under Tigran's position in 95-66. But modern Western Azerbaijan (Karabakh, Nakhichevan etc), were part of Armenia before 95. For example, Strabo, in 11.14, places Karabakh (Orkhistene) and other areas around it (Sakasene) solidly in Armenia. He also lists the areas conquered by Armenian kings in 190-66. These two areas are not included by him in the lands conquered.[6]. So, there is no evidence that it was Tigran in 95 conquering Western Azerbaijan. In sum, the 95 should be changed to 190 bc.

Please note that this doesn't mean I am reintroducing my oppose. Actually, per Khoikhoi's request, I will put my support. Thanks!--TigranTheGreat 18:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding IA[edit]

Thanks for the response on my page. That was pretty good. What you said was 100% on the spot. Thanks for bringing up the obvious, the oldest Indo-European document was in the Levant, not in the subcontinent, althought Rig Veda is still one of the oldest. I dont like to think all Indians believe that tripe about no AMT. I know most of my Indian pals who are into history believe in the migration, though they dont think it really matters, as they both have mixed so much that ethnic distinctions are practically non-existant, except of course, in language and certain history. I've often wondered, though, if Proto-Australoid genes ( the main component of South Asian matrilineal lineages) exist west of the subcontinent (ie: Iran, Afghanistan, Middle East, etc.) Do you know if there are traces of the Australoids in the Iranian plateau or other parts of the ME? Afghan Historian 21:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Azerbaijani copy-editing[edit]

Thanks for the nice words - how can I refuse such an invitation? I'll have a look at it in the next few days. Birdhurst 05:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


The article is starting to look really good! I know you're busy, but when you have the time, could you check out the discussion here again? —Khoikhoi 20:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Lol, I've actually been trying to cut back from all of this. Maybe you might try peer review next time before nominating it for FA... —Khoikhoi 20:28, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I see what you're saying. I think you should nominate this one for being on the main page... —Khoikhoi 20:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree! —Khoikhoi 20:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

...and again. —Khoikhoi 20:49, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Picture of Azari Refugess[edit]

Although I am concerned and upset about both Azari and Armenia refugees and beleive they are essentially the same people, on an academic basis I question this picture being posted on this article. It seems to be POV, and once again the article seems to be getting a non-neutral, biased Republic of Azarbaijan tilt to it again. I object to the posting of this picture and I also ask all editors to consider the changes being made recently.

Why has the picture of Googoosh been taken off?


For your outstanding contribution to Azerbaijan related articles. Keep up the good work! Grandmaster 10:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I did not want to mess up your user page, so feel free to move it around as you deem necessary. Regards, Grandmaster 10:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Central Asia[edit]

WikiProject Central Asia has finally been created! Aelfthrytha 21:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Babak Khorramdin[edit]

Hello. You might be interested in this BBC article ;) Tājik 00:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. However, I believe that you make a mistake by comparing the Tajik-Parsi relationship to that of Croats and Serbs (two different peoples with different languages and different origins).
"Tajiks" are not only the same people as the Persians of Iran, but also their name ("Tajik") has the same meaning as "Parsi".
Sources that mention Tajiks as a seperate people who are "Iranian" and speak an "Iranian language related to Persian" are weak and only prove that they are not reliable - like saying that "Australians speak a Germanic language related to English".
Tajik culture is the same as Persian culture, and the differences are not bigger than the differences within the German nation (people in Schleswig-Holstein have a totally different culture than those in Saxony or in Bavaria). Yet, noone would disagree that all 3 are in fact "Germans".
Only because "Tajiks" (= Turkish word meaning "Persian") live outside of Iran (where everybody calls himself "Persian", although "Tajiks" are more "Persian" than 49% of Iran!), it does not mean that they are not Persians - keeping in mind that modern Persian identity is infact "Tajiks indetity" and "Central-Asian identity" and NOT that of the people in the Islamic republic. By seperating "Persian" and "Tajik", then all Medieval Persian culture should be transferred to the "Tajik" page, INCLUDING Ferdousi (who was in fact "Tajik", celebrating the "Tajik" Samanid kings and their "Dari" language).
Authoritative sources, such as the Encyclopaedia of Islam and Encyclopaedia Iranica do not distinguish between "Tajik" and "Persian", and in their articles "Tadjik" only explain the meaning of the word, NOT the people - the people are mentioned in the article "Persian culture" and "Persian history".
Here is an extract from the "Tajik" article (Encyclopaedia of Islam) - note the first sentence: [7]
Tājik 19:09, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I know and understand what you are trying to say, but you are still making mistakes.
  • Sources that classify Tajiks as being "different from Persians" are not realiable and obviosly have mistakes. In this case (and also in other cases), Iranica and EoI are authoritative!
  • It does not matter wether "Tajiks" consider themselvs Persians or not. After all, only a very small portion of Tajiks actually identify themselvs as "Tajiks". In Afghanistan, for example, the term is still quite unknown and usually, people say "Fārsiwān" or "Fārsi-zobān". Now, should we also craete a seperate article for the "Fārsi-zobānān" because they do not identify themselvs as "Tajiks"?!
  • Of course there are differences between Iranian Persians and Tajik ... but you also miss the point that there are great differences between Persians within Iran and between Tajiks within Afghanistan or in comparison with Tajikistan. What has a Herati-Tajik in common with someone from Dushanbe?! What has a Tajik from Samarqand in common with a Tajik from Ghaznai?! Their dialects are different, their ways of life are different, and even their faith might be different. Yet, most souirces do not differenciate between "Bukharis", "Samarqandis", "Heratis" and "Kabulis" ... yet, the same sources persist that there are "Persians" and "Tajiks" - two "different peoples" - although they totally miss the point that there is almost no difference between the people of Herat and thos in Mashhad, or between the people of Balkh or Samarqand.
  • Incorporating "Tajiks" into "Persian" would be wrong - the Tajiks deserve an own article. Yet, both article should make clear that there is - actually - no difference between the Persian-speakers of Iran and thos in Afghanistan and Central-Asia. Except for minor differences, the cultures are the same. Their history is the same. And even their national heroes - starting with the heroes of the Shahnama - are the same.
  • "Tatas" and "Tajiks" are - like the people in Iran - a subdevision of the larger "Persian nation". It just happens that the term "Tajik" was forced on the people in Central-Asia, while the Persian-speakers of Iran kept "their" name (it's important to note that "Persians" do not have a name, but usually identify themselvs with the city or region they come from).
Everything is fine the way it is. We should only expand these article, not create a new theory or fall back to unrealiable sources.
Tājik 20:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
There is no problem with the current articles. I know that many Tajiks (considering the fact that some 95% of Afghanistan is totally illiterate) do not want to be called "Persians" (which in their view is a synonym for "Shia"; so it's a religious problem and not an ethnic one), but it still does not change the fact. It is totally irrelevant. It should be mentioned in the article that because of certain historical reasons, many so-called "Tajiks" (the term "Tajik" is not really a self-designation!) do not consider themselvs "Persians" (we'll leave out the fact that not every so-called "Persian" in Iran is actually a "Persian"). Yet, the ACADEMIC VIEW remains that Tajiks are "Persians" - be it "Persians in Central-Asia", "Persians of Tibet", or "Persians of Idia" ... it does not matter ... "Tajik = Persian".
The information in the Persian people article is NOT wrong. We added it into the article after 3 weeks of debate! And at the end, we agreed to add the information that "Tajiks" are a related subgroup, and that they are considered the "Persians of the East" - THIS is the ACADEMIC view.
For your information: according to the Encyclopaedia of Islam and Encyclopaedia Iranica, there is no people called "Persians". "Persian" is a name given to different peoples of different ethnic backgrounds who simply seemed to have the same life-style (city dwellers, merchants, artists, etc). Most of the so-called "Persian scientists and thinkers" were actually NON-PERSIANS, like Biruni, ibn Sina, Khwarizmi, and so on. So, "Persian" is a general term applied to a certain civilization and to everyone who belongs to that civilization - and that civilization is usually defined by it's language: the Persian language.
"Tajiks" are deffinitly Persian in language, Persian in culture, and - according to Richard Frye - even Persians in heritage, maybe even more than today's so-called "Iranian Persians" who might actually be Persian-speaking Turks and Arabs, and not descendants of the historical Persians who were defeated by the Arabs and were forced to leave their homeland (and settled in the Eastern lands of Persia where they merged with peoples such as Bactrians or Sogdians).
Both articles, Persian people AND Tajiks, are fine and only need some improvement.
Tājik 21:14, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I know what you are trying to say lol. And I agree that there is some kind of confusion in here. Yet, the "Tajiks" are not counted twice. There is only one sentense in the Persian people article pointing out the fact that there are related SUB-GROUPS of the Persian people OUTSIDE of Iran, and that the LARGEST of these subgroups - thos living EAST of Iran - are known as "Tajiks" and that there is a main article regarding these people. That's it.
Persian culture and Persian literature and Persian music and so on should have their OWN articles and should NOT be mentioned in either Tajik or Persian people articles. That's because both Tajiks and Persians share the same culture, language, history, and so on. The article Persian people and Tajiks should predomenantly concentrate on the application of the terms and maybe on the present political situations. All the rest should be attached to these two articles via Wiki-links. That's exactly the reason why academic sources, such as Iranica, Britannica, or EoI do not have any seperate articles for "Persians". Tājik 21:26, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I just realized the problem. I've left a small note on the Persian people talk-page. Tājik 21:38, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Wali Khan & stuff![edit]

Hey Tombs just the person I was gonna message, alls well with me (btw have you seen the new UK Doctor Who? I highly recommend it). To your comment thanks for taking the time to message, I have gone back and addressed 2 of the points you mentions the see also bit, i left words that haven't been highlighted in the article (or did you mean not mentioned at all?). I have cut down the side of some of the quotes and sorted out the Rahimullah yousafzai thing. with regard to shifting his quote to the main body, I can do that but I'm not sure what i can add to the opening paragraphs. I tend to struggle with "hooking" readers in the beginning if you know what I mean. Yeah you are probably right about copy-editing I've been looking for people to help but it's a bit of a struggle. I am setting up a Wiki portal for pashtun articles, I am hoping that way I can work on bigger collaborations. Here is the link: --Zak 22:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

hey tombs! I moved the quote, corrected the see also links and have added a picture I might add another one as well, do check Doc Who it's done quite nicely. Thanks again for all the help. I've got some useful links on learning pashto, if you want i can send them your way? --Zak 17:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Hey again tombs, I think I've already included that quote in relationships? It was quoted in the New Yorker a few years back about how secular pashtun groups had been marginalised by the Afghan war and Pak gov policy. I'm holding back on some references and links because I figured I'd need them for my articles on Bacha Khan and others.

Here are a few pashto educational links I'd recomend: --Zak 21:10, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey Tombs, yup its looking good now, it probably does need some more improvement but i think structurally and grammatically it can't be faulted as much as it could before I submitted it for the FA status. Anyway lets see what everyone else says! Nobody seems to be replying now? --Zak 20:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Hey Tombs I am getting butchered in the FAC Wali khan feedback. H-Help!--Zak 11:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
No worries man, I figured you were on holidays somewhere..if you can have a look at the article before school starts I'd appreciate's been a real struggle getting people to work on it..and i thought it had been improved quite a lot from the early days. Anyway I won't be having as much time anymore either..starting a new job tomorrow which will cut down how much wiki time i can spend. Do keep in touch though..have you seen Supes returns? What did you think? Anyway I am outta here..hey if you wanna keep in touch my e mail addy is

--Zak 13:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


Please help with that article. I have attempted to remove original research and provide sources for the data, but another user completely undoes my work and puts in false references from Cavalli-Sforza, who does not tackle the theory of Iranian origins of Croats. His false citation is further revealed in that he is claiming "Persian" origins for Croats, rather than the proper "Iranian" origins. Cavalli-Sforza would never make such a mistake and I have read much of his work and he does not even come close to handling such a new and potentially dubious theory. Thanks. Genomist 17:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Also it appears he even removed numerous other references [8]! Man, how do you guys tolerate this stuff all the time? I don't think I can handle the stress. Genomist 17:48, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Cavalli-Sforza is the main resource from which racists use to propagate their agendas. Lord Loxley 19:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

What do you think somebody with the name "Genomist" and editing exclusively as to the racial origins of Balkan peoples is up to, when they talk about Aryans? This undoubtedly is connected to the Ottoman invasion of Europe and the problems of Yugoslavia. The editor is well advised to change his focus and steer clear of nationalistic edits that promote any type of revisionist racialism in regards to the matter, or I will make a RFC. Lord Loxley 19:12, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I have discovered that this is a systemic bias due to the influx of racialist POV intermixed with purportedly legitimate academia. The waters are muddied with half-truths and propaganda; it is by no means NPOV academia. This tide is too high for me to swim...I suppose I will let you all drown in your own sewage, promoting these connections which have no sound basis in actuality. These theories are only as old as the study of racial categories and the caste system in the 19th century for new imperialism; they have not been important beforehand and are increasingly irrelevant in our current time. In short, these things are obsolete and unfounded--with no historical tradition to support them. Furthermore, these "studies" only continue to isolate Eastern Europeans from acceptance in the European Union--they appear as foreigners, with little in common. When you embrace the separatist theories and ideologies, don't expect Franks like me to welcome you. We have tried to save Europe from Eastern barbarisms with classical antiquity civilisation, but you go on and say that they (Asiatic tribes) are your ethnogenesis. Why should we seek to include those who want to claim a separate ancestry and somehow, fuse the two together? You are either European or Asian; we cannot mince words and create approximates as to who you really are. New theories don't mean squat in the face of historical timelines. Dalmatia and Illyria are part of Europe and always have been; it is not our fault that separatists enjoy the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans so much that they propagandise and war over it, for a collaborationist approach. It only furthers the Turkish issue in Europe, since it actively works against Christendom. Go ahead and walk the wrong way. We don't want to fix your economic problems, if you don't love us anyways. Why desire to be a part of us, except to milk and leech off our prosperity? Commmunist greed is all that is. Don't say we abandoned you to stave off the hordes on your own and that we never tried to help you from the barbarians; you take it upon yourself to sacrifice your own heritage and assimilate into their collective. So, you think it is better to become a Hun, Mongol, Turk (or Iranian) instead of Celt, German, Roman, Greek (or Jew/Arab)? I say that is an inferior sense of priority and backstabbing. Why would you not want to hold Western values (or admit our blood)? Both the Franks and Britons claim Trojans as our ancestors, not Aryans. The difference is the Abrahamic vs Dharmic worlds. We trace our roots to Japheth, not obscure Asian deities. It is revisionist to believe that Indo-Aryans should supplant Minoans, Mycenae and Sea Peoples. Lord Loxley 19:55, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about the Ayatollah on the Azari Article[edit]

I thought it was okay since the picture is featured on another article; meaning Wikipedia has permission to use it. Was, I wrong or right or in the grey?

Wiki Pashtuns[edit]

Hey Tomb, I thought you would have already singed in as Participant on Wiki Pashtuns, but couldn't find you out there? Take great care yara. Haider 21:56, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Suggestion[edit]

I more than agree with what you said, so why don't you set it up? As for the template Chris set that up and I honestly don't know how to make those or edit them, so you might better mention the omission to him. :) Aelfthrytha 22:20, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Be bold in editing pages[edit]

I want to! but someone reverts it back! See the discussion page on the Talk:Azerbaijani people. Cheers, Kiumars 16:42, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


Are you still planning on working on that article? Please let me know as I have recently encountered some helpful sources.--Eupator 16:56, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


Hi Tombseye. In general I don't like the idea of Iranian origins for modern Croats because of what you describe. It is for certain (if I am not mistaken) that "Croatia" is an Iranian name, but the genetic component is an entirely different matter. My specific problem is that the user in question is removing sources and presenting questionable edits with no proper referencing. The article is not very well written. I have heard many theories about modern Croats, including that they are closely related to Serbs (like Bosniaks being simply Serbian Muslims), though I'm sure this is not popular for political reasons. By the by, what is this Lord Luxley and what is he raving on about? I cannot make sense of his attacks on me and why he is calling me a white supremacist! LOL I'm not even European! Genomist 22:59, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Tombseye, I think you should pay attention to the Azari page and discussion[edit]

It seems like all hell might brake loose on the Azari talk page or article. Your expertize and services would be appreicated.

Problems with User:Hadi1121[edit]

Could you please have a look at People of Afghanistan, Hazara, and Tajiks. The above mentioned user is vandalizing by changing population numbers, nationalities (for example his claim that "Avicenna was a Turk"), etc. Thx Tājik 00:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


Hey Tombseye, this is Afghan Historian. I'm back briefly to see somethings. I just thought I'd drop by and say hi. I'm doing well, being an RA here at the Michigan debate camps. I'm going to judge some practice rounds, as part of my job. I also make sure the children are in their rooms at the proper time. I must say I'm very lonely here. One of my few potential friends here wont talk to me anymore, due to a misunderstanding. I miss wikipedia greatly. But anyway I'm studying for courses next year and I'm reading some books. One of them happens to be The Discovery of India by Nehru. I was always curious about Nehru's perspective of India and partition. Some of his ideas about his vision for the subcontinent are outdated, as this was before partition but others seem to come true. He seems to make a mistake of calling Pashto an Indo-Aryan language and it seems that he quoted the authors who I used as my sources for calling Afghanistan an Indian area a few months back. James Darmesteler, a French savant by profession, is the primary source for this particular bit of information. Not an Indian. Have you heard of him? Also, what's the Central Asia wiki project like? I got an invitation but I cannot do any work till I get back. I do make a suggestion of adding Pakistan on it. After all, NWFP and Kashmir were and are heavily tied to southern Central Asia, genetically and culturally to certain extents. Also, how have you been doing? I hope well. Tell me what you have been doing this summer. Well I must go, so I'll talk to you later. Sorry for telling you all of my personal crap. I just had to let it out to someone. Adieu. Afghan Historian 04:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

RfA thanks[edit]

Samsara RFA thanks.jpg

Samsara (talkcontribs) 22:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Azerbaijani people[edit]

Hi Tombseye. Whenever you have a minute, would you mind to have a look at Azerbaijani people? Some new users make edits that in my opinion damage the quality of the article. Maybe you can address thier concerns? Grandmaster 18:57, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello Tombseye. Since you're the main author of the Azerbaijani people article, your opinion is needed regarding this discussion and critic. Thx Tājik 22:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I support Tajik’s request. Would you mind to have a look at this dispute, as me and Tajik have a difference in opinions with regard to migration of Oguz Turks to Azerbaijan and the time of turkicization of the region. And please see this diff in question. Regards, Grandmaster 19:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

The theories[edit]

So whats the deal and whats going to happen?Khosrow II 19:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Please do something about this User[edit]

I believe you are an admin am i correct? Please do something about this user: Rembranth. Just look at his posts in the discussion section of this article Tabriz rug. He keeps ranting about how Azerbaijan will take back iranian azarbaijan and make tabriz the capital and that turks have lived there since 1000 BC and that other such propaganda and nonesense. he wont listen to reason and he has many different accounts on wikipedia which he uses to vandalize several iranian related articles. Even the presence of Iranian Azari wikipedians who object with him does not stop him. anyway, please do something about him, and for the mean while can you protect the Tabriz rug version last edited by me? The other users and I cannot keep having to resort to reverting. Thank you!Khosrow II 20:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Why have you ignored my request? can you refer me to an admin atleast who will take action? thanks.Khosrow II 15:54, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, i thought you were an admin. ok, thanks for your help.Khosrow II 21:53, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Pashtuns Cricketers[edit]

Hey Tomb, hope you doing well. Shahid khan afridi is famous Pakistan's Cricketer but there are some great figures should have been mentioned on main article page, one of them is great Imran Khan, he is the only Pakistan's cricketer, who had taken more than 3 hundred test wickets and scored more than 3 thousand runs aswell. It would be great to see his picture in place of Shahid Khan Afridi and I am sure nobody will oppose it. Haider 09:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm back[edit]

Hey man, how's it going? :) Did anything interesting happen when I was gone? —Khoikhoi 22:13, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Israel was awesome. I had already travelled extensively throughout the north (Lake Kinneret, Tiberias, Safed, Haifa, the Golan Heights, Akko) and was in the Negev and Eilat by the time the violence broke out. As for the Israeli chicks, it's pretty amazing how short some of their clothes can be! And then of course you see the exact opposite in places like the Western Wall. I bascially went everywhere except for the Occupied Territories—where I hope to go next time I travel to the Middle East. All in all, it was a great trip.
What exactly are the problems at the Azeris page? Good luck on your essays btw. —Khoikhoi 22:41, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Ah yes, the Bedouin. The village I went to was very touristy so I didn't really get to see "authentic" Bedouin culture that much. If I ever go back I'm going to make sure to visit some real Bedouin villages, but that won't be for awhile. I didn't get to see Tel Aviv at night either! Thanks for reminding me man, that way I can have a checklist for things I need to do on my next trip. I think the issue with Wiesel is settled. As for Chomsky, I was watching this thing he was saying on TV once where he said that the borders of African countries should be redrawn as many ethnic groups are split up. That had to be the smartest thing I had heard that day. The image of the 3 Azeris was given to me by User:Ldingley—you should probably ask him. Ciao! —Khoikhoi 23:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

request help[edit]

Hello, I started this article: Iranian Theory Regarding Azeri's and I was wondering if you could help me finish it, or add on more information. Then once its complete I will link it to here: [9]

ThanksKhosrow II 20:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


Hi, I am back - but for short while!

Please see that above article is balanced- I hope it is. Let GM know if you need his opinion.

Noticed that Kyrgyz and History of Kyrgyzstan are rather poorly written - I am completely re-workting this. When you have time... sure you can contribute? abdulnr

Hi Tombseye[edit]

Please visit [10] page and add your personal email (if you don't mind) at the bottom for better collaboration, networking and comunication. Thanks :) Omerlives


Hello Tombseye! Your contributions to the Pasthun article are very much appreciated. I had a concern I would like to inform you about regarding this article. It seems as if the population statistic of Pashtuns in India is being repeatedly deleted. From my knowledge, I know that a large number of Pashtuns live in India. In some cities such as Pathankot and Rampur, Pashtuns are a majority ethnic group. I feel India should be third on the list as it was in the past. There have even been a few comments in the past regarding the lack of mention of the Pasthun in India on the talk page. (see in India and [11]). There used to be a picture of Shah Rukh Khan (an ethnic Pashtun) under Pashtun_people#Performance_art that was removed as well. I thought this picture was great as it gave mention of an Indian Pashtun in the article. I would really appreciate if you could get back to me on this issue. I thought I would inform you since you seem to have much knowledge on the subject and have made such great contributions to the article. Thanks again. Jdas07 04:14, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Pashto is not spoken in India![edit]

Hey Tombseye, I was reading the Pashto language article to see if I could make any decent contributions, and I saw references as to it being spoken in India. This is ridiculous! Pashto was spoken in India prior to Partition, but since then, it has no speakers in the modern country as it is today. There are Pashtun desecendants, but these are Pathans who speak Urdu or local languagese. They are no more Pashtun then Parsis are "Persian" or Sayyids "Arab" or what not. Can you look at this page? It's the page Pashto language. Thanks! Afghan Historian 03:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Tombseye[edit]

My Ottoman map is real Ottoman map. Sorry i little english and i you understand but my map is real. This link: [[12]] Ottomans to be owned countries All Nothern Africa, Turkistan (Turkistan is enter the somebody's Ottomans), Mozambique, Indonesia and Iceland(Northern Europe).

Pashtun people review[edit]

Hi Tombseye. Pashtun people is up for Featured article review here. The review period has just started so there'll be plenty of time to address concerns. As you originally nominated it for FAC, perhaps you can help with the review. Cheers, Marskell 11:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Would sure like to have an update on your progress on the FAR page. Regards, Sandy (Talk) 22:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yerzhan Ashykbayev[edit]

Hi, if you have the time I would like your input on whether to delete the article on Yerzhan Ashykbayev, the Foreign Ministry spokesman of the Government of Kazakhstan. Thanks, KazakhPol 18:34, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


You returned earlier than I expected! :-) Khoikhoi 22:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Lol, I see. If there's anything that you don't approve of in the article (that's unsourced), feel free to remove it, as per this. It sucks that you can't stay forever...when you have the time please check out the Azeris page as well. Khoikhoi 22:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and also this. ;-) Khoikhoi 22:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
...I forgot to tell you that it closed on October 21... Khoikhoi 01:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! Hopefully the Pashtuns page will look good again. Adios, Khoikhoi 22:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Pashtun celebrities[edit]

I agree with you that we shouldnt have these people of distant Pashtun ancestry listed as Pashtun celebrities. I am thinking of removing references to Shah Rukh Khan and Madhubala. However, I do think we should keep mention of Dilip Kumar. His real name is Muhammad Yusuf Khan and he was born in Peshawar, British India to Pashto-speaking parents and happens to be a prominent Muslim philanthropist and politician these days. He has familial connections to Pakistani Pashtuns (in fact, his brother is an actor in Pakistan), is highly admired by many Pakistani audiences and was one of two Indians to be awarded the Nishan-e-Imtiaz. I think we can mention him as a prominent Pashtun celebrity. With regards to Fardeen Khan, I know his father is a prominent Bollywood actor, Feroz Khan being his name. I do know that Feroz Khan was born in Bangalore to Afghan immigrants (his mother, in fact, lived in Iran for a while) and that Pashto happens to be his mother tongue. I think we can include Feroz Khan, rather than Fardeen as a Pashtun celebrity as well. But just those two. Indian Muslims of Pashtun descent such as Shah Rukh Khan and Madhubala have no place on the page. What do you think? Afghan Historian 21:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree. I dont think we should include the rest. But Kumar and Khan should be included, just as simple examples of Pashtun celbrities from Pashtunistan living in Afghanistan/Pakistan and abroad. Thanks! Also, is the Farsi dialect of Persian spoken as a mother tongue in Pakistan? I know for a fact Dari Persian and Tajik Persian are spoken in large numbers by Afghans living in the NWFP and Balochistan, but the Iranian Farsi? I'm not so sure about this. Afghan Historian 23:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the Siraikis are a transitional group between the Punjabis and the Sindhis, while the Hindokowans are a transitional group between the Punjabis and the Pashtuns. Both are really separate groups. The Mirpuris could be called a transitional group between the Punjabis and the Kashmiris, but I'm not sure. The last time I was on the page, just a few minutes ago, Shah Rukh Khan was deleted. So I think we have that problem solved, for now. I also think that the page should be reformatted but you dont need to worrry wasting your time doing that. I'm sure someone else wil fix it soon. But if you want to, you can. I just dont want to make you a "watchdog" for the page as you said. Anyway, when was the last time you were in Pakistan? Have you ever thought of going back or seeing any other South Asian country? I'm going there again this coming summer for a few weeks before I get back to my internship. Afghan Historian 14:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Munich[edit]

Would you be interested in helping out atWikiProject Munich? And you don't have to know anything about Munich. Maybe you could help out on bringing Munich-related articles up to Wikipedia Policies and guidlines standards or maybe another area where you could help improve Munich-related articles. Kingjeff 23:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome back![edit]

Good to have you back, Tombseye. Certain articles, dealing with Iranian, Afghan, and Turkish history are under permanent POV attacks (see Babur, Timurids, Afghanistan, Seljuqs, etc).

Maybe you can help to solve the problems. Thanks.

Tājik 15:32, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I see. Tājik 23:06, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

____ ____

My Map Real Ottoman Map...[edit]

Please click adress in Harita StANDby007 16:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


Are you back permanently?--Eupator 18:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

NWFP geography[edit]

From what I know, the majority of the old NWFP that actually lies on the Iranian plateau (the end of the Hindu Kush), has been separated and reorganized as the Federally Administerd Tribal Areas (FATA) and Waziristan. The NWFP as it is today, from what I see, seems to be located between the Punjab-Kashmir area (the subcontinent's end) and the FATA and Waziristan (the plateau's end). Therefore, from my understanding, the North-West Frontier Province lies on the intersection between both geographic areas and therefore, the Indian and Eurasian plates, thus the reason for the seismic disasters in the area. I might be wrong though. What's your say? Also, I dont think Kashmir specifically lies on the Indian subcontinent, as it bore the brunt of those seismic quakes, giving me the impression that it too is a border area or at least on edge of Central Asia. Afghan Historian 16:02, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Farsi in India?[edit]

I was on the Persian people wikipedia page and I saw a stastic in the box stating 60,000 Persians in India. Are they referring to Parsis. I dont think any modern day ethnic Iranians speaking Farsi are living there. I know some came to Pakistan during the revolution, as Pakistan was a friend of the Shah. But India? Do you know anything on this matter. See Persian people to see what I'm talking about. Afghan Historian 18:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Edit war in Afghanistan's article[edit]

Since a short while Afghanistan's article is being messed up, I thought that you might be helpful to contact.

User:Pashtun is editing the article since a while; at first some of his edits were appropriate. But recently he has started to bring the article for his own preferences and point of views i.e. making everything depending to Pashtuns or Afghans (as an ethnicity and not as nationality).

I created a section in the Discussion page (here) and pointed out his edits, but he's still doing the same thing. Very briefly he has edited the following points:

1. Ghaznavids were from Afghan origin. And wrote that Mahmud Ghaznavi is a local native Afghan, although he was from a Turkish origin.

2. He emphasizes that the Columbia Encyclopedia is more authentic than Encyclopedia Britannica and thus based his claims on that source for Ghaznavids and Ghorids.

3. He is deleting the following sentence for the 4th time: In the Middle Ages, up to the 18th century, the region was known as Khorāsān. Several important centers of Khorāsān are thus located in modern Afghanistan, such as Balkh, Herat, Ghazni and Kabul. Although I created a new section to discuss on this matter. I provided him several authentic sources in English (Here) and he was unable to respond to my questions and could not defend his point. He stopped the discussion, but again he's trying to edit the sentence (i.g. changed Middle Ages to 9th century and deleted the second part) despite the three reliable sources that I have provided in the article as a reference.

4. He deleted 3 times the names of Empires in the history section. I reverted them back, and no doubt he will again delete them.

He edited 13 times the article from 13:29, November 30, 2006 to 15:39, November 30, 2006. Please have a look on the History page. I just let you know that he's messing up the History and Name section, so that the Admins of Wikipedia would be informed of. Thank you Ariana310 16:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:FILMS Newsletter[edit]

The November 2006 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. Cbrown1023 23:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


Hey man, could you please check out the conflict that's been going on at Image:Ottoman 1683.png? User:Ltimur is citing the BBC as a source, but his version of the map doesn't really quite match that. What do you think? Khoikhoi 05:35, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Iranian peoples[edit]

Great to see Iranian peoples featured on the main page today.. Congrats! deeptrivia (talk) 05:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Iranian peoples/amazons[edit]

The cited link does not state any connection between amazons and Sauromatian/Sarmatian warrior women. Read carefully - it states the opposite:

"The Amazons of Greek mythology most likely had no connection to the women of the steppes, says archaeologist Jeannine Davis-Kimball. "I think the idea of the 'Amazon' was created by the Greeks for their own purposes," she says."

Also, the graves are not old enough; the greek myth existed at least 2 centuries earlier. --Echosmoke 15:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Still we should considerably weaken the statement (also on the main page): "and gave birth to the infamous Amazons." Additionally the mentioned space the amazons are supposed to have inhabited does - to my best knowledge - not map well with that of the Samartians or skythians.

And You are welcome to give these books as sources, of course. Deriving amazon from an iranian stem is plausible but nothing near a proof. What about "may have given birth"? --Echosmoke 16:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

That sounds much better, yes. Thanks. Who can fix the Main page? --Echosmoke 17:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey Tombseye. You can change the main page by editing Wikipedia:Today's featured article/December 10, 2006. What part do you want me to change? As for Indo-Aryans, I think I'll check that out later. Khoikhoi 20:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, only admins can edit the main page. :-) How's this? (Also check the main page again) As for the infobox, it looks like Tajik-afghan recently added it. Perhaps you could leave a note on his talk page. Ciao! Khoikhoi 22:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:FILMS Newsletter[edit]

The December 2006 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. Please also, if you have not already, add your name to the Member List. Cbrown1023 00:58, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article review/History of Central Asia[edit]

Your input on this F.A.R. is desired. KazakhPol 02:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Edit wars[edit]

What's up man? I know you're probably busy with the Pashtun people article right now, but when you have the time, I was wondering if you could help resolve some edit wars between NisarKand, Tajik, and Tajik-afghan:


Dispute over Afghanistan being called "Khorāsān" at one time (in addition to other edits). See Talk:Afghanistan#Question. Perhaps you could leave a comment?


Dispute about the majority ethnic group in the city, with little discussion on the talk page. It seems to have died down for now, but I'll let you know if it starts up again.

Other than that, I hope you're doing good...I'm still waiting for you to make a full comeback. ;-) Khoikhoi 05:26, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Hahaha, the "wasted beyond belief" and "RIP featured article status" me me laugh. Good luck with the work by the way. Is it full or part-time? Personally, I'm not really sure why History of Central Asia was made an FA in the first place. Look at at the end of the article: it onlly has 6 footnotes! Anyways, if that's what you want to work on, be my guest (I'm sure you can improve it), it's just that IMO you should follow what you're really interested in on Wikipedia rather than writing on request. That's just how it is for me in real life anyways. Thanks for the info on Afghanistan and Kabul: I figured that there was no way to tell what the majority ethnic group was as well, with the war and all. Besides the stress of real life and on Wikipedia, I'm doin' pretty good. Being an admin actually isn't that hard, except now instead of being called a POV-pusher I'm an "abusive administrator who promotes my personal POV". We might be able to get Pashtun people to FA again, if you don't leave like last time. ;-) Incidentially, we have somewhat of a POV fork going on at Pashtun diaspora, which says "today around 11,904,000 Pathans reside in post-partition India". Guess what the source is? Happy holidays too, ditto what you said about getting drunk! Khoikhoi 11:10, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
BTW, could you please make (another) comment at Talk:Azerbaijani people#Ethnic group? Thanks, Khoikhoi 02:53, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Pashtun people[edit]

Hello Tombseye. The reverting of the population of Indian Pashtuns seemed to come from an anonymous IP address. Regarding the changes I made to the article: The History of India article (referring to the entire History of South Asia) includes that of Pakistan and some Afghan history. Moreover, Pakhtunkhwa is a part of South Asia (geographically). Notice, the article link does not the same as the History of the Republic of India. The ethnic group box should include Indo-Aryans (initially added by Afghan Historian) if the other two non-Iranian branches of the Indo-Iranian peoples are listed. Could you please explain your reasons for removing these pieces of information? Your comments would be appreciated. With regards, AnupamTalk 05:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I am aware of the link that Pashtuns have with South Asia -- as you stated, British India and Pakistan. Actually, that is one reason why I and NisarKand (a Pashtun himself) added the link. In addition, the group of people in India who have a putative ancestry is quite large. I have read your comments about not placing Indo-Aryans in the infobox. However, by that logic, the Dard people (speakers of Dardic languages) link would also have to be removed as it includes ethnic groups such as the Dah Hanu, which appear to be only distantly related (like the Indo-Aryans) to the Pashtuns. Looking forward to hearing from you, AnupamTalk 05:48, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for hearing me out. I'm glad we reached a consensus regarding the IA isssue. Yes, I do understand that the Pashtun/Pathan terminology is confusing but I don't think two articles is the way to go. I think the putative ancestry section covers the Pathans of putative ancestry sufficiently and if we create a article of Hindkowans, we can explain the Punjabi Pathan issue there. However, because of the British Indian link with Pakhtunkhwa and the fact that the amount of people who claim to be Pathans is significant, I do feel that the History of India link belongs in the article. Like you, I agree that the main focus of the article should be on the Pashtuns residing in Pakhtunkhwa. Your comments would be appreciated. Thanks again, AnupamTalk 06:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes I agree, we have reached one. Let me know when you decide to write the article on Hindkowans. I'd be glad to help. Thanks for your time and kindness. With regards, AnupamTalk 06:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


I see the point regarding Pakistan as part of the Greater Middle East due to its western regions (particularly Balochistan), but most of the stuff I've read regarding the "general" Middle East, not the Greater Middle East that was introduced by G8, usually end the natural/political limit at Iran's eastern border, sometimes including Afghanistan. The "Greater Middle East" is now an accepted scholarly term to refer not just to the Middle East but to surrounding areas that were particularly tied to it in certain degrees, such as Turkey, the Maghreb, Sudan, Caucasia, and western Pakistan. My concern, however, is this: the Middle East category on the article only includes countries that lie within the general immediate Middle East, such as the main Arab lands from Egypt onwards, ending at Indo-Iranian Iran's eastern border, from Iraq and Turkey in the north to Yemen and Oman in the South. Pakistan and other countries from the "extended" Middle East fabric are not included and are usually not included in the descriptions of the Middle East proper, Pakistan going to South Asia in that regard. If you can make a category for nations within the extended Middle East, such as Pakistan, Libya, Sudan, the Maghreb, Somalia, etc, that would be more accurate to general geo-cultural understanding, or so I think. Afghan Historian 02:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, you stated Persian rule, Hellenism, Arab rule, and Turkic migrations were key events that tied western Pakistan to the Middle East. These events also happened in eastern Pakistan too. Punjab and Sindh made up the 20th and wealthiest of the Achaemenid provinces and Indo-Greek and Selucid rule was strong in the Punjab for a long time. Arab rule initially reached Sindh and Turkic migrations were prominent in this region of the subcontinent since Kushan times. I would think history may be just one key factor in determining the identification of a country to a region. Linguistically, culturally, and ethnically there seems to be not so clear a division. NWFP and even Indo-Aryan Kashmir itself are very Central Asian. Balochistan is more strictly Middle Eastern, while Punjab and Sindh and to some extent Kashmir are most closely tied to the greater Indian subcontinent. The NWFP is not strictly "Middle Eastern" in my mind, but more Central Asian and Kashmir is indeed more so. Its a complex crossroads of southern Asia that really makes it hard to simply break it up into a west and East. What's more, Punjab derives much of its genetic and historical heritage from Central Asian and Middle Eastern ethnic and cultural invaders/hegemons, while Sindh is greatly tied to Middle Eastern Baloch influence. Kashmir is greatly tied to South Asia, culturally and, somewhat, historically, and NWFP was a major frontier post of many South Asian empires. On a linguistic level, yes, there is a division, but culturally no, racialy, sort of no, but historically all uniform as the northwestern crossroads. Its a very contentious identification issue. Plus, alot of Hindu nationalists and pan-Indianists will lay claim to Iranian Balochistan and even Sistan-e-Baluchistan itself as parts of Greater India, while overly nationalistic Pakistanis will take time to paint history to show Pakistan as all Middle Eastern to wipe out Indian influence, and then there are some radical Pashtuns who will identify NWFP and Balochistan as completely identified with Afghanistan and Central Asia and that Pakistan stole the area from its rightful owner, despite the fact that NWFP citizens voted 9-1 for the creation of the country. Different nationalistic trends in the country prefer different identifications, as far as I can see Afghan Historian 02:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Reply to Geography[edit]

True, Greater Middle East can be and is a supergeographic/cultural term encompassing not only the middle east proper, but overlapping states as well. Definitely so. Since Pakistan is not apart of the Middle East PROPER, we should create a "Greater Middle East" category and put Pakistan and states like it in there rather then the Middle East, as the term "Middle East" refers to states between Egypt and Afghanistan. If we just say "Middle Eastern" people will assume Pakistan as simply a Middle Eastern state, which it isnt. Regions of it might be "Middle Eastern" such as Balochistan and maybe the NWFP, but we are talking about the country in general. Most associate the country politically and culturally with South Asia and, to a certain extent, Central Asia, and sometimes the Middle East, due to poltical links and region links such as Balochistan/Sistan-e-Baluchistan. Also, I associate NWFP with Central Asia, due to the fact, that the Pashtuns derive from East Iranian tribal groups that would have been outside of the Middle Eastern Iranian (Persian) cultural sphere. It's Iranian speaking yes, but Iranian languages arent just exclusive to Iran. Scythian was for long based in the area of Kazakhstan/southern Russia. Also, its linked with eastern Afghanistan, which is apart of Afghanistan's Central Asian overlap. These East Iranian tribes outside of the Persian/Middle Eastern sphere include the Scythians, Bactrians, Sogdians and White Huns, whom many now believe to have been Iranian, especially as they worshipped the sun. But yes, if we can make a "Greater Middle East" category to put the general country in, that would be good, and that would put its geographic identity in context. Or so I think. Afghan Historian 21:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


Hey, good idea on creating that artice. Check out my comment at Talk:Hindkowan people—what do you think? Khoikhoi 06:34, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Shahrukh Khan[edit]

Okay, I wasn't aware of this. I have also appropriately modified the Shahrukh Khan page. deeptrivia (talk) 19:16, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Azeris picture[edit]

Hey man. Ldingley decided to change it back in December. Also see his comment at Grandmaster's talk page:

Grand, the photo of Azerbaijani people on the ethnic info box is awful. Look at Armenians, Greeks or Georgians. Can you compile the photos of famous Azeri and i can edit them in the similar way as the other ethnic group photos. Bets Regards. Ldingley 17:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course, I guess I could change it back if you want. I like how the Pashtuns page looks right now, I wonder who decided to upload that beautiful image? ;-) I'm doing pretty good myself, my talk page is always being flooded—by the time I archive it I get 10 new comments the next day! Oh well. Khoikhoi

Yeah, I honestly don't know enough about copyright to say. Maybe you can ask Gmaxwell, as he's the guy that removed my image from the Persians article. I see what you mean about the nationalism too. You know, this whole idea of having collages of famous people in ethnic group infoboxes started with articles about former-Yugoslav ethinc groups (I think), and then it started to spread. Perhaps you could add more references to the Pashtuns article; if you compare it to the Azeris page it definately has less. BTW, I started watching Carlito's Way, but then I didn't have time to finish it so I rented The Fugitive instead. :-) Hopefully I'll be able to finish that one. Ciao, Khoikhoi 23:05, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I couldn't really tell if he was trying to be Latino actually. He didn't have the accent at all so I thought he was some sort of Mafia member. The light skin wasn't helping either. As for Borat, I'm kinda pissed that I never got to see that. I kept wanting to go, but I always had something to do. All my friends of course tell me it's the best movie they've ever seen. Now I have to rent it, unless it's still being played somewhere. The two movies that I actually want to see this year are Spider-Man 3 and Rush Hour 3 (Rush Hour 2 is actually one of my favorite moves). You can tell that I have good taste. :-) I actually do need you to check something out for me: I removed the infoboxes from the Israelis and Palestinian refugee articles, because both of the articles are clearly not about ethnic groups. However, I got reverted on both, so I was wondering if you could see Talk:Israelis and Talk:Palestinian refugee#Infobox and possibly make a comment there. I feel if we take the definition of "ethnic group" too liberally, we'll eventually see this infobox on articles like Indo-European people, and maybe even Family Guy. It's hard for me to find time in real life, considering all the time I spend on Wikipedia. ¡Hasta luego! Khoikhoi 06:33, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for that. I really am starting to get sick of Wikipedia with all these conflicts these days. Khoikhoi 08:22, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


Of course there are also Shia Pashtuns. Their number is very small, but it does not mean that they do not exist at all.

User:NisarKand is really a problem, because he stubbornly pushes for a false and POV position without providing any sources. Just check his edits in Kandahar or his silly comments in the Talk:Ghurids page.

Tājik 23:13, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Durand Line[edit]

Hey dude, mind checking out the dispute at Durand Line? Khoikhoi 20:13, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and there's another dispute at Pashtun tribes. It's not huge, but I just thought you might be interested. An anon kept adding Tanolis to the list (which is a hell of a mess of an article), and User:Supersaiyan kept removing it. Khoikhoi 01:42, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


I, Fut.Perf. , award this plate of delicious freshly baked wiki-cookies to Tombseye for bringing reason into the Afghanistan article. 22:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I promised I would award some cookies to whoever solved the riddle about Afghanistan's position within Asia, right? So, here they are! :-) And thank you very much if you can take care of the article while the edit-warriors are on wikibreak. Fut.Perf. 22:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

On picture of the Persian people[edit]

Hi Tombseye!

I think the picture shows how a typical Persian look like. Persians of Iran do not have any traditional dress and you can not find a picture similar to what you used in Pashtun and Azeri page. Also if a person is not famous we will not know whether he/she is Persian. There is no location in Iran where you can find a persian colony seperate from other ethnic groups. If you are interested to see how a Persian looked like in the past, then it does not make sense to separate Persians of Iran from other Persians as all these separations happened in modern time. I see no problem with the image.Sangak 16:51, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I understand your point. But the problem is that we can not verify that. For instance let's take an image from Tehran. How can I claim that they are Persian? It will be subjective. If I take a photo of my family, then others can not verify it. Sangak 18:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Also these four people are not like extraordinary important Persians. I can make images of hundreds of other persians with the same level of recognition. The nice point about this picture is that they look very Iranian to an Iranian eye. For example I, myself, do not look like a typical persian (despite the fact that I am persian!) Sangak 18:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I agree.Sangak 19:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
One point irrelevant to our discussion: contrary to the viewpoint of ethnic "minorities" in Iran and the region, Persians do not define themselves as a genetic ethnic group. They define themselves as a cultural and linguistic group. So any one with any genetic backgroud that practices our culture and speaks in Persian can be considered Persian. Of course one shoud identify him/herself as persian too. In summary, it is mainly others who identify us as persian. We identify ourselves more as Iranian citizen or as residents of a particular city of Iran (and persian speakers). Sangak 19:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Re: Some updates[edit]

Thanks again. I guess I'm enlightened now about the CanTanolis! And I saw the debate at Talk:Afghanistan too, brilliant solution. BTW, I just moved Caucasian peoples to Peoples of the Caucasus, as no one replied to my comments on the talk page from months ago. Basically, one would assume that "Caucasian peoples" means "people that speak Caucasian languages" (excluding the Altaic, and Indo-European languages). However, in addition to listing "Peoples speaking Caucasian languages", the article also featured "Peoples speaking Altaic languages", and "Peoples speaking Indo-European languages". That's why I decided to move the page. Problem is, shouldn't there be an article about the people that speak the Caucasian languages? (like the Lezgins, Dargins, etc.) There's only a page called Languages of the Caucasus, which of lists the non-Caucasian languages as well. An additional problem is that the Peoples of the Caucasus article is mostly unreferenced, so I'm not sure what the most common meaning of Caucasian peoples really is. Perhaps you could help? Thanks, Khoikhoi 03:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Britannica doesn't really make it clear if it's talking about all peoples of the Caucasus, or just the people speaking the Caucasian languages (it just says they live there, which applies to both). I think if we're going to make the article just about the latter definition, we'll have to find reliable sources supporting this. Yeah, that would be great if you could work on the Persians article next; what I can say for sure is the picture needs to go (it's probably copyrighted too). But you're right, I encounter too many of these issues. :-) I guess I should try trimming my watchlist, as Wikipedia is really starting to stress me out these days. Ciao, Khoikhoi 06:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
BTW, when you work on the Persians article, make sure you don't stress the mixing thing too much, if at all. Khoikhoi 07:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I'd love to help you out on the Persians article. By the way, there's trouble brewing at Talk:Azerbaijani people#Objections to some references. Maybe you can make a comment there? Kiumars also added some {{fact}} tags, so sources need to be added to those parts too. Ciao, Khoikhoi 02:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks man. I think people want sources because of articles like "Azeri nationalism is Iranian nationalism". It's important to provide sources for things that people may dispute. Also, I asked for Kober's opinion on the Caucasian peoples thing; see his reply at Talk:Peoples of the Caucasus. Khoikhoi 02:00, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Optical illusions[edit]

Well, I'm not talking death or eyeballs, but I did view your user page and contributions history and got the full picture. I'll look before I AGF in NPOV next time. KP Botany 03:03, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Greater Iran vs. Iran[edit]

Hi, could you please have a look at this: [13] Tājik 02:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Persian people[edit]

Tombseye, hope you are well. You have said in the past that you are going to work on this article. I just wanted to check if you are still interested? Also, what approach do you personally take to go about making an article a 'FA'? --Rayis 01:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok thanks. I have made a Talk:Persian_people/to_do list for the article on the talk page, I don't know how useful it will be but anyway. Wish you all the best with the Pashtun article --Rayis 21:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Pashtuns crisis[edit]

Problem solved! (I think) I've restored a lot of the images from back when the article was a FA, and deleted the images that were probably copyrighted. Check it out. Khoikhoi 08:30, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey dude. I was trying to find new pictures, and noticed that Flickr had some great ones ([14], [15], [16], [17]). However, I later realized that all of them couldn't be used on Wikipedia. So, I started searching on Commons for the word "Afghan", and found this picture, and once I found that website, I knew I'd hit a gold mine (sort of). Hope the article can make it too. :-) Khoikhoi 04:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I could do that! BTW, did you hear about the Rush Hour 3 teaser? Khoikhoi 04:25, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
This one. I think it got leaked from some Russian website. I didn't know he got injured, but the movie's scheduled to come out on August 10th ([18])... Khoikhoi 04:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Haha, yeah. I hope the real thing will be better. The French already had us, so it's no big deal. Khoikhoi 04:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


Hi, I saw some of your well expressed posts on the History of Pakistan talk page. I've started an RfC Talk:India#Request_for_Comment:_Adding_new_material_to_the_India_page_history_section. The topic is a little different, but any comments and feedback, at your convenience, will be welcome! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

WP:Films Newsletter[edit]

The January 2007 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. Nehrams2020 06:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


Oops! I had forgotten. See if it's fine now. Regards, deeptrivia (talk) 01:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


Hey just letting you know that Nisarkand and his dozens of sock-puppets got banned. He was a Pashtun ethno-fascist-nationalist (there's lots of these types of people, watch out for them), a racist, insulted many people, made up lies and extreme POVs, provided fake/pretend sources (ex Pashtuns killed 30,000 Persian, I caught that one), etc. Look at what he wrote to an Administrator (Future Perfect Sunrise) here, I can't believe he wrote this. Its disgusting, but funny lol, I think he's a lunatic. He has now been blocked indefinitely (i.e. banned from editing Wikipedia). In addition to Sirdar Agha, other sockpuppets include Farid333 and JoeLevin. If you suspect anyone of being another sock puppet, try contacting Dmcdevit about it. Behnam 00:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Now what he wrote to the Admins is gone because they deleted all his accounts. But it was quite disgusting what he said to the mods. He has many times made racist remarks and insults on Wiki and they let him get away with it. But this time he went to an Administrator (Future Perfect at Sunrise) and told him some very racist/facist/hateful things. Personally, I think he was truly a lunatic. Behnam 01:38, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Pashtuns issue (#505)[edit]

Hey dude, why did you remove the picture of the Kabul boy from the infobox? I don't think anyone disputed that he was a Pashtun. Beh-nam even said he was wearing a Pashtun hat. I don't think KP Botany would mind either, as I'm sure she knows that as well. Khoikhoi 03:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, cool. Khoikhoi 02:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Ask for a favor[edit]

Dear Tombseye I would like to ask you for a favor. Last few weeks I studied and worked on Abbas Kiarostami. I collected info from literature and made a raw draft first.

Here is the original draft I wrote: [19] I could not improve it any further as my English is not good enough. I asked others to help. There have beem some changes by some users afterwards. However some poeple think the quality is decreasing while others think it is increasing. I think there is need for new editors to step in who have both good command of English and also enough experience in wikipedia. Any helps from Your side will be very very much appreciated. Sangak 09:15, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Article on Persian Culture[edit]

Hi Khokhoi,

Just noted that Persian Culture article not only tries to avoid to dicuss "current" religion of Iranians, it also tries to emphasize signs and symbols of "anciant" Iranian religions.

I actually know where it comes from, but I find it somewhat un academic. Iranians, especially those living outside Iran, who are the ones with most interest and very passionate in editiong Wikipedia, do not like the idea of being identified as Muslim/Arabs more than Persians.

However, I think religion is one of the most important aspect of a culture. I have never seen an article about a culture not mentioning religion! Correct me if I am wrong!

Anyhow, just thought to let you know since you have had interests in Iran related articles.

Regards, Persian Magi

Pashtun People[edit]

I have to reread it, which I'm doing now, and will post tomorrow. Raul will promote with my outstanding objection, though, because I object to all FACs, but only post my objections on potentially promotable articles that need specific work or pure trash that shouldn't be a FAC--the deal is you simply have to consider my objections, or be working on them, with enough other people having voted for its FA status. Strike throughs make it clearer that you have done this. Of all the pictures from the US Airforce of Pashtuns, I would like the one with the family included, if any, as family is so important to Pashtun culture, and it's a better choice than a picture of a lone woman or child, unusual imaging for Pashtuns. I object in general to how images are done on Wikipedia, as it constitutes original research, but that's how it's done. Nice to see the buzkashi photo. The Pashtunwali section is too short and it's inappropriate to write it as a list, it should be in prose, or the list should be accompanied by substantive prose. The order on this section needs changed, also. It should go 5.1 Language, 5.2 Religion, 5.3 Pashtunwali, 5.4 Pashtun literature, 5.5 Sports, 5.6 Performing arts. The Putative ancestry section needs rewritten, it's not clear. Also, when words not standard in English are used, their definitions should be given paranthetically. "Many Pashtuns are prominent Ulema, or Islamic scholars, such as Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan who translated ...." Also, there are many sentences that are out of context, or appear so, because they are so abbreviated, "A small Jewish population has relocated to Israel." "A small Jewish population of Pashtuns relocated to Israel in ...." When? During WWII? There is a need for brevity in a general article, but these sections are all just too brief, they're like introductory sentences to a paragraph that never got written, please write a single complete paragraph for all these sections. KP Botany 22:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Tombseye[edit]

Can you please remove the following sentence from Azerbaijani people: " The debate has to do with modern nationalism and historic claims over Azeri territory." It's original research and basically weasel wording, discrediting and dismissing the Iranian theory, before it's even presented in line with WP:NPOV. --Mardavich 18:39, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Azerbaijani people[edit]

Hi Tombseye. I do not want to get caught by the edit war. So, I would like to suggest - what I believe to be - a compromise in here:

Although in many references Azerbaijanis are generally designated as a Turkic people, due to their Turkic language and partial descent from the Oghuz Turks,[1][2][3] many scholars believe that Azerbaijanis originated from combine of predominantly older inhabitants of the region, including Iranian peoples, Armenians and others who had lived in Transcaucasia since ancient times, as well as Oghuz Turcoman tribes that migrated to the region in 11th century.[4][5][6][3]

What do you think? Tājik 18:42, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Azeris descended from Armenians? I have nothing against Armenians, but according to most academic sources Azeris descended rather from Caucasian Albanians, who lived in the territory of North Azerbaijan. Along with Iranian people and Turkic tribes, Caucasian Albanians are a major element in the ancestry of modern Azerbaijanis. Grandmaster 19:39, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I think many friends mix up the ethnicity and origin concepts. Ok, Azeris are identified as Turk but when we are talking about origins we are looking for their roots. Moreover, the references like Britannica emphasize on multi-origins of Azeris. It considers Azeris as Turk when are talking about ethnicity but when Brittanica, Larouss, Americana, World Book are talking about origins. They are talking about three sources, especially Iranian origins. Finally, I do not agree at all with this sentence: “In many references, Azerbaijanis are designated as a Turkic people, due to their Turkic language and partial descent from the Oghuz” This sentence is not talking about origin and it is not based on consensus of scholars about the origin of Azeris and it is misleading.--behmod talk 22:15, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

My suggestion: Many scholars consider three main origins for Azeris: older inhabitants of the region, including Iranian peoples and Caucasian who had lived in Transcaucasia since ancient times, and Oghuz Turcoman tribes that migrated to the region in 11th century.[4][5][6][3] --behmod talk 22:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok Tombseye: I mention Caucasians then Iranians and then Turks due to timing of their migration:

Many scholars consider three main origins for Azeris: older inhabitants of the region, including Caucasians and Iranian peoples who had lived in Transcaucasia since ancient times, and Oghuz Turcoman tribes that migrated to the region in 11th century.[4][5][6][3] --behmod talk 22:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Tombseye! I totally agree with your edition. It is shorter and sounds better. I just brought those quotes to convince people. It seems that there no need to them anymore.

By the way, I found new genetic studies published in 2006. However, as I am not an expert in genetics, I prefer to give it to an expert. Do you know somebody who can add them to the article? As you know, in the current version, suffer from lack of enough studies from Azerbaijanis in Iran.

Tombseye, could you help me in fixing up this article to conform with major encyclopaedia's? Please make a comment on the talk page. Please see here first to understand what changes must be made: [20]Azerbaijani 18:57, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


You might be interested in this:

A recent study of the genetic landscape of Iran was completed by a team of Cambridge geneticists led by Dr. Maziar Ashrafian Bonab (an Iranian Azarbaijani).[21] Bonab remarked that his group had done extensive DNA testing on different language groups, including Indo-European and non Indo-European speakers, in Iran. [22] The study found that the Azerbaijanis of Iran do not have a similar FSt and other genetic markers found in Anatolian and European Turks. However, the genetic Fst and other genetic traits like MRca and mtDNA of Iranian Azeris were identical to Persians of Iran.

Cheers. --Mardavich 02:22, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Re: Azeris[edit]

Hi. I’m glad you are back. I don’t mind mentioning any ethnicity, I just think that if we mention someone specifically, then Albanians should be mentioned too, otherwise we can just include general categories like Iranian people or people of Caucasus, which might be better option. Grandmaster 05:35, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Tombseye. I really appreciate your efforts to maintain the FA quality of the article. I will do my best to help preserve the article's quality. Currently I’m involved in an arbitration case, which also involves almost all Azerbaijani and Armenian users, so I will be busy for a while. But I think it is about the time we attract the attention of the wiki community to what’s going on here. Maybe we should start an RfC or something like that as an initial step. Grandmaster 17:05, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


Hi Tombseye. Please take a look at the Safavid dynasty article and its talk-page. Thanks. Tājik 20:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


Dear Tombseye! I am going to nominate Abbas Kiarostami and Cinematic style of Abbas Kiarostami for FA. The articles were formerly parts of a single long article. I splitted the long article into these two. The original article have been peer reviewed and also GA assessed. Would you please take a look at the article before I nominate them? Thanks. Sangak 21:05, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Azerbaijani people[edit]

Don't revert anymore, you've run out of reverts. Khoikhoi 23:07, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I wish I knew the answer to that. :-( Khoikhoi 23:16, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Kiarostami: FAC[edit]


I would like to invite all those who reviewed "Abbas Kiarostami" during last two months to comment on the article at this "final" stage. The article is now featured article candidate. In case you have any comment, please let me know on the Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Abbas Kiarostami page. Thanks.Sangak 16:19, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Notability of Afzal Khan Khattak

A tag has been placed on Afzal Khan Khattak, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done because the article seems to be about a person, group of people, band, club, company, or web content, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable, that is, why an article about that subject should be included in Wikipedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not assert notability may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, and if you can indicate why the subject of this article is notable, you may contest the tagging. To do this, add {{hangon}} on the top of the page (below the existing db tag) and leave a note on the article's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would confirm its subject's notability under the guidelines.

For guidelines on specific types of articles, you may want to check out our criteria for biographies, for web sites, for bands, or for companies. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Eli Falk 09:26, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


Hey dude. You might be interested in this, this, this, and this... Khoikhoi 10:25, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Films February Newsletter[edit]

The February 2007 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. Cbrown1023 talk 23:57, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Kiarostami was promoted![edit]

Dear Tombseye

I need to thank you for your kind assistance and support. The article would not come to FA status without your helps. Thanks and All the best. Sangak Talk 11:42, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


Hey Tombseye, hope you are doing well? I am trying to improve Swati article and for that I would need your precious help, kindly keep that article on your watch list for some information, grammer and spelling mistakes aswell. Thank you very much. Haider 21:29, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Tombseye, You must be some tired and taking rest, otherwise I would have a reply, atleast a semi-supportive one? Take care Friend. Haider 22:11, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for keeping an eye on it, appreciated. Haider 20:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


Please check this out. Khoikhoi 06:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Alright, sure. I know how you feel. Thanks! Khoikhoi 02:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

History of Azerbaijan[edit]

Hi. As you were one of the major contributors to this article, I would appreciate if you could check the recent edits proposed to this article. Regards, Grandmaster 15:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please come. My edits are sensible and sourced. I dont know why Grandmaster keeps dropping your name in all these articles but he insists that you take part.Azerbaijani 19:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Tombseye, is the section The end of Mongol rule and the Black Sheep-White Sheep rivalry talking about Iranian Azerbaijan or the Caucasus region? Its not clear, but most of it seems to be about Iranian Azerbaijan.Azerbaijani 19:26, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

History of Pakistan[edit]

Hi Tombseye, I've been adding text and pictures to the History of Pakistan, which, I know, you've contributed to before. Could you take a look at my post: Two Pages?? Would be great to get your feedback. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:29, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The confusing thing is that its written as if its telling the history of Iranian Azerbaijan, rather than the Republic of Azerbaijan. I think it needs a rewrite to focus more on that aspect of history regarding the Republic of Azerbaijan, you know what I mean?Azerbaijani 00:48, 25 March 2007 (UTC)


Check your email. Khoikhoi 03:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Pashtun people[edit]

Pashtun people is on Main page today! That's your hard work finally paying off. Congrats!! deeptrivia (talk) 01:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

March WP:FILMS Newsletter[edit]

The March 2007 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. This is an automated notice by Cbrown1023 talk 00:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

The New Central Asia project page[edit]


I revised (a bit radically) the navigation system of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Central Asia. The old page was a mess. You are a member of the project, I would appreciate if you would compare with the old page and give a feedback on the talk page. I am asking this because an old user wants to revert the new layout.Thanks. cs 22:20, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Check it out[edit]

Khoikhoi 20:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. BTW, look at all these unsourced edits that were made to Pashtun people recently. Are most of them true or false? It's hard to tell without sources. This was also added: unverifiable. It should be noted that amongst the claimants of Pashtun ancestry in India, the majority are believed to be fabricated patriarchal lineages concocted in order to encourage upward social mobility within the Indian Muslim community. Recent DNA testing has confirmed this to be true in most cases, the few cases where Pushtun ancestry was identified, the gene was found to be extensibly admixed with the Indian gene pool and relogated to a minor recessive trait. Khoikhoi 21:28, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Check this out: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups#Scrap_the_infobox. Khoikhoi 01:30, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Sinhalese people[edit]

Hey Tombseye,

I don't know much about genetics, but I want to tell you that I am with you on the topic on the basis of personal experience (it's in most cases just impossible to tell Aryan-speaking from Dravidian-speaking people) and examples from other regions of the world, e.g. the Romance-speaking peoples around the Mediterranean who in spite of their closely related languages up to today show "racial" characteristics by which you can tell them apart in many cases, proving that an invading group may leave its cultural and linguistic stamp on a population, but doesn't really change the genetic material significantly.

Don't back down! Cheers, Krankman 13:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

History of Pakistan for FAC or the next step?[edit]

Hi IP198, I was wondering if we should make a push towards making the History of Pakistan article an FAC. It still needs a lot of work: it needs to be pruned, the post-1947 history needs to be cleaned up, etc. but I don't see any reason why we can't work towards FA status. What do you think? Who are some other people who have worked on that page? I've already asked user IP198. Any others you can suggest? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


Ok, I'll check it out. A good way to help your arugment is if you present sources for your claims, and then cite them in the article. That way no one can accuse of of OR. What do you think of this BTW? Khoikhoi 00:49, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Please take a look[edit]

Ok, its not finished yet, but please take a look at what I've compiled so far for the Azerbaijani people article: [23]. Your input is important.Azerbaijani 00:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, as it is, it does not conform with the consensus view. Dont worry, what you see on my page is not the finished product, I will shorten things up and conform things to the consensus view (there is not Turkic theory, for example, it is accepted that the region was Turkified, not that the people are descendants of Turks). As you can see, I have compiled a lot of information. I will shorten it up and make it encyclopedic.Azerbaijani 16:49, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
The article is not finished, I merely put the quotes so that I wont forget them. Then the Turkic theory should be split into another section talking about the Turkification. Its wrong to put it alongside teh Caucasian and Iranic theories. Again, my version is not finished yet, when it is, I will tell you.Azerbaijani 16:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Also, having a list of primary sources is not a bad thing, as it is an easy way to eliminate disputes and also allows the reader to make up his or her mind based on the direct quotes.Azerbaijani 17:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Again, the article is not finished. The Turkic legacy and Turkic influence will for sure be mentioned, no question about it. But the Turkification cannot be put down as a theory regarding the origins of Azeri's. Besides, Encyclopaedia's and scholars agree to the Caucasian/Iranic origin of Azerbaijani's, this Wikipedia article needs to reflect that.Azerbaijani 17:04, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
How does it look now? Feel free to make some changes or leave comments on how to improve it.Azerbaijani 17:18, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
For example, there are many things that also need to be incorporated into the article from this article: [24]. Again, I am not finished yet but will try to finish my version by the end of the week.Azerbaijani 17:21, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, its not all genetic. Its historical too. There are many historical accounts to back up the genetics. There is also the place names all over Iranian Azerbaijan and all over the Caucasus. The article needs a lot of improvement, and I think one way to end disputes once and for all is to have as many sources listed as possible. There is not Turkic origin theory, there is only the fact that Turkification did happen, and its acknowledged. It really needs a rewrite and I hope we can work together like we did in the History of Azerbaijan article.Azerbaijani 17:25, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

April 2007 WP:FILMS Newsletter[edit]

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Is it possible to get your attention to this discussion, please? Parishan 07:46, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Could you please have a look at this discussion as well? Thanks. [25] Grandmaster 10:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I feel like this is going nowhere. My opponents are unreceptive towards any sources. I need some neutral expert opinion. Could you maybe recommend anyone? Parishan 23:23, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

May 2007 WP:FILMS Newsletter[edit]

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Berber Misconformity[edit]

I notice that in this talk page you state Berbers as being Mediterranid and as having blue eyes "pop up", not only are blue eyes very insignificant in North African populations (even more infrequent than in regions of the levant), but you should know that Berbers are genetically distinct from southern Europeans (only about 15% of their mtDNA is genetically European), the overwhelming majority is actually African, a concentrated strain known as E3b2 - which was spread further north after North African expansion into the Iberian. These figures of course vary from Berber population to Berber population (Europid strains would undoubtedly be very minor among Tuareg and Kesra Berbers) Additionally, Moroccans and other Northwest Africans have frequencies of E3a present in their mtDNA, in varying degrees of course (for the average Moroccan it was something like ~20%). In anycase, I tire of being compared to Mediterranids, fact is, the overwhelming majority of North Africans look nothing like generic Mediterraneans (European types), I simply just prefer using the term North African Caucasian when referring to a white North African, no matter how pseudo-Europid they may appear. Feel free to discuss on my own talk page. Jalopenio

Azerbaijani people[edit]

Hi. Could you please check this edit? [26] I reverted it back to the FA version, since it had no consensus on talk. I think it goes over the top emphasizing one of the versions of Azerbaijani people origin. Grandmaster 05:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

June 2007 WP:FILMS Newsletter[edit]

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Fair use rationale for Image:Alina1.jpg[edit]

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Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:Alina1.jpg. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use. Suggestions on how to do so can be found here.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. MER-C 12:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Iranian peoples[edit]

Thank you for taking care of the article. Please also have a look at this section and please correct the wording and spelling of it.

July 2007 WP:FILMS Newsletter[edit]

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WP:CVU status[edit]

The Wikipedia:Counter-Vandalism Unit project is under consideration to be moved to {{inactive}} and/or {{historical}} status. Another proposal is to delete or redirect the project. You have been identified as a project member and your input as to this matter would be welcomed at WT:CVU#Inactive.3F and at the deletion debate. Thank you! Delivered on behalf of xaosflux 16:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


Hello Tombseye. Yes, but your labelling of him as a non-Pashtun was your speculation based on his city. However, my source confirms his ethnicity as Yunus was related to Badshah Khan, a Pasthun. As a result, it is my hope that you will restore the deleted content and reference. Thanks, AnupamTalk 05:23, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Getting comics article to pass FAC[edit]

Hi, Tombseye. I see that you were one of the driving forces behind getting Watchmen to pass FAC. I'm currently working on the FAC for Fun Home, and was wondering if you had any advice on how to develop the coverage of themes, etc. — I see that issue came up in the Watchmen FAC as well, and seems to have been addressed to the reviewers' satisfaction. Any advice or help you care to give would be welcome. Thanks! —Josiah Rowe (talkcontribs) 06:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Urgent: India page[edit]

Hi Tombseye, Since you are one of the people who made substantial comments in the last RfC we had on the Talk:India page concerning addition of new material (see here), I thought I would get your opinion about a new development. Yesterday, out of the blue, Blnguyen, who has no history of editing on the India page, made a post on the page suggesting that the India page be expanded to twice its size, which needless to say, has created a lot of confusion. Please see this section of the talk page there. As a result, User:Sarvagnya, for example, has returned to his scheme for de-constructing the India page. (By way of background: Nichalp, who usually watched over the article is busy this summer; Ragib, who was subbing for Nichalp is busy too. Blnguyen seems to think that the page is in bad shape and is about to be de-FA'd. He feels that it needs many more citations (and their lack) is reason enough for it to fail an FAR. Nichalp, when he was active, discouraged over-crowding the text with too many citations (especially when the text was composed in the summary-style, as India is). I think Blnguyen has some valid points: the page needs more (and certainly better) citations and the prose (especially of some new sections that were created by other people) needs revamping, but I think you might be in a better position to assess Blnguyen's idea of expanding the article to twice its size.) Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:12, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

August 2007 WP:FILMS Newsletter[edit]

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Azerbaijani people[edit]

Hi. Could you please have a look at Azerbaijani people again. We have a dispute regarding the Etymology section. Thanks in advance. Regards, Grandmaster 16:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Films roll call[edit]

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WikiProject Films September 2007 Newsletter[edit]

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Iranian People[edit]

Would you please review the recent changes of this article and give your view about inclusion of "some notes" about Uzbeks, Azeris and etc--Pejman47 20:27, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Pashtun People[edit]

The one removing pictures is the well known anti-Pashtun who is now indef banned user: Beh-nam. He is using IPs from Canada like this one In the future just revert all his vandalism when you see similar annon IP, his only purpose is to vandalise Pashtun related articles with his usual nonsense. Thanks--Churra 19:07, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


Hello. I have reverted your edits on the Pathan article. None of your new sources indicate population sizes of Pashto speakers. In addition, Ethnologue is considered "a widely cited reference for languages around the world" on Wikipedia and meets WP:RS unlike some of the sources you inserted in the article. In addition, both references that discuss the original religions of Pathans mention Hinduism, so I do not understand why you continue to remove any piece of information that suggests an Indic influence on Pathans, especially when there is a mass of information that points to it. Shamanism is no where mentioned in any of the sources that you cited yourself, while Hinduism is. In the past, you removed a well cited section on Rajput influences, which I discussed with you. However, no more relevant and sourced information will be removed. With regards, AnupamTalk 07:19, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm having trouble editing your talkpage so I'll respond here. OK, I now see that these references referring to religions in Afghanistan are both a)archaic (19th cent. references are not valid) and b)not academic. I will get rid of them as well and replace them. Al-Biruni refers to the Afghans as neither Muslim or Hindu and he's the best reference to the Pashtuns in particular. Nor is the link to the Rajputs at all viable or academically viable (Bellew's reference is also old). You keep digging up old references to FIND links to India besides the ones that exist (Ashoka and Buddhism) so I'm not taking out anything that isn't relevant. Nor is there any viable information to show a Pashtun population in India and you know it. The Indian census has NOTHING on them. Are they hiding somewhere? And Ethnologue is a Christian evangelical group and isn't academic either. How they get their figures and the MANY errors coming up with them makes it not viable to use. I will fix the references (all of them) and use contemporary references. I don't understand why you keep looking for and are inserting ANY references that link Pashtuns to Hinduism or make the case that there are Pashtuns in India aside from the Pathans that are already noted, but aren't part of the main group. They are in the putative section. What's more I made a mistake in putting in the Hindu and Sikh and Jewish groups as it was brought to my attention that these aren't Pashtuns but Punjabi speakers who are bilingual and Persian Jews so they have been removed. I am being academic here and I made this a featured article by working with academic references and not creating links that don't exist. If you have something to add, then make it contemporary, viable, verifiable and relevant and not something really old or something that is vague please. Tombseye (talk) 16:59, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
No, I didn't find the references, you did. Your Al-Biruni reference clearly states "During the 7th century AD, Arab armies made their way into the region of Afghanistan with the new religion of Islam. At this point in time Afghanistan had a multi religious population consisting of Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Hindus, as well as others." And also, I am not placing misleading references in the article. Every reference widely accepted in Wikipedia that shows the population statistics of Indian Pathans, you remove. And yes, the Indian Government does mention the ethnic group in it's list of Forward Classes, which means that there is a substantial population of them. However, the Indian Government does not take population count of ANY ethnic group, which is why, it is important to rely on sources from other parties. In addition, the sources you replaced for Ethnologue do not indicate any actual figures, just a Pashto speaking presence. You can deal with this; however, I am restoring the Indian population statistic. Please do not remove this again as your policy has been criticized before and your deletion will be reversed. If you can find a better source, that would be appreciated; however for now, this one will have to work as several sources, including Afghan ones such as Khyber and Afghanland clearly confirm the Pathan presence in India. Thanks in advance. With regards, AnupamTalk 19:30, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
You actually didn't finish reading. Further down it states that Afghans were neither Muslim nor Hindu but Afghans alluding to their indigenous religion. Furthermore, the Hindus were largely (according to historians) rulers from nearby Punjab and Kashmir who were part of the Shahi dynasty and had a short reign after replacing the Buddhist Shahis.
Yes you are placing misleading references. The reference you just gave me refers to "Pathans". These are not Pashto-speaking Pashtuns, which this article is about. We already mention the putative group AND I was the one who added the Hindu and Sikh communities' mention in the first place before I realized they weren't Pashtuns but rather Punjabi speakers who live in Afghanistan and are bilingual in Persian and Pashto. We need some verifiable source that refers to the population of Pashto-speakers in India (of which I would guess is maybe in the low thousands), which I'm OK with adding, but NOT Ethnologue. I just replaced the earlier references with britannica so that's not an issue anymore. I will revert inaccurate and unverifiable information so explain what it is what you want add on the talkback page first. I'm the one who made Pashtuns a featured article so I don't care about criticism from some people. I was supported by the majority of people who look at this article and see it as comparable to that of Britannica and Iranica which was all I was aiming to do. Your whole point seems to be to inject as much mention of India (whether warranted or not) as possible, which is not acceptable. We can have an admin. arbitrate here if you want as well as I'm confident of what I'm doing here. Peace. Tombseye (talk) 19:43, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Well you leave me with no choice, but to revert later and ask for arbitration. These deliberate misleading edits are not acceptable.Tombseye (talk) 20:09, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
No that is not the case. Several references mention Hinduism in the religions of pre-Islamic Afghanistan. I am not asking for arbitration, which I don't have time for anyway. I don't mind you replacing my Ethnologue reference. However, I would appreciate if you could search for another source. With limited sources, the Ethnologue source will have to suffice for now. And yes, it is regarded as an academic source on Wikipedia. Your current edits to the article that clarify the religion are good and clarify the issue. If you still feel the need to ask for arbitration on the issue, I think it would be best for you to ask someone other than User:Khoikhoi with whom you have collaborated before in order to maintain neutrality. I hope this helps, AnupamTalk 20:20, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not saying there weren't Hindus in Afghanistan, but the Pashtuns were not among them. I put in mention of Hinduism in the history article of Afghanistan myself. The group was specifically based in Kabul and Peshawar and were rulers for a short time. The main Indian contribution comes from Buddhism brought by Ashoka that lasted until Islamic times (and the Buddhas of Bamian are a good indication). Alright, I will look further for a reference to Pashtuns in India (of which I know a few thousand exist as I've read references to them but no figures). It took some time for me just find a figure for the US which is very low and barely worth mentioning. If I can find figures I will put them in and will look into this later today some more. Actually, right after talking to you I started looking for references and continued to find nothing so far. Ethnologue is not appropriate for a featured article. It might be OK for other articles, but for this type of article that seeks to be accurate and concise we need something more credible than an evangelical site that has no verifiable bibliography. That remains the problem. Tombseye (talk) 20:30, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I will accept your removal of Hindus from that section, albeit I still feel it should be included. Thanks for looking for different references. If you do not find any, please reconsider using the Ethnologue figure. Currently, Khoikoi is looking into the validity of SIL Ethnologue to help us. Also, in the article, you had previously cited the Indian Pashtun figure as 13,000 using this source. Until you find a new one, could you please repost this figure since it was agreed upon by you and I in the past? Thanks in advance for your consideration and for your continued work on the article. With regards, AnupamTalk 22:28, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I was the one who put in the MERIP figure previously. the reason i took it down was b/c it was a cumulative figure which included non-Pashtuns (Tajiks, Punjabis etc.). In fact, upon further research I found that the vast majority of Afghans who came to India as refugees were Sikh and Hindu Punjabis who have lived there for decades and/or centuries. Most of them are now either naturalized Indian citizens or soon will be. The Tajiks were another small group (most went to Iran and hundreds of thousands to Pakistan and Tajikstan) and the Pashtuns smaller still. Their combined total seemed to point to something under a few thousand literally. I'm still confounded as to where Ethnologue gets its figures (some of which are badly dated) as they don't list a bibliography just further reading (unlike Britannica). Don't you care about verifiability here? The censuses are what we know are official and verifiable. Ethnologues puts up figures that remain something of a mystery here. Are they taking the entire group from the MERIP and including them as Pashtuns and if so why?
Yes, that's fine with regards to Khoikhoi looking up whether we can use Ethnologue (he's pretty good with being neutral as well), but where are their figures coming from? They are not professional academics, in fact they are an evangelical organization that seems to do some very sloppy work.
Why would we include that Pashtuns were Hindus when there is no evidence to support it? In fact the only reason even Zoroastrianism and Buddhism infiltrated the region was due to concerted efforts and prolonged foreign rule (i.e. various Persian empires, Mauryas & later Kushans). The Shahis were confined to urban rule in Kabul and Peshawar, do not appear to have made any major attempts at conversion and came to power in a coup that lasted only a few centuries. Prior to this there is no archaeological evidence of Hindu temples (or anything that we can term proto- anything). Numismatic evidence points to Indus Valley links etc. but again no evidence of religious affiliation (and no one knows what religion existed in the Indus basin thousands of years ago). I firmly believe (and so do experts in the field) that the Pashtuns were largely pagans (or shamanistic as that seems to be the less controversial term) as their neighbors were the same AND their own practice of Pashtunwali is clearly a hold-over. And then we have Al-Biruni's testimony as well. These are fairly simply criteria that is not my opinion, but based upon academic ocnclusions. I realize your interest is in Indian influence upon the Pashtuns, so why not focus upon what we know, the Buddhist influence of the Mauryas? Why this emphasis upon Hinduism? Tombseye (talk) 16:34, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
In my last post, I stated that I would not push the Hindu issue further. The only reason why I brought it up in the first place was because the source you inserted in the article [Swatis and Afridis, By T. H. Holdich, The Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 29, No. 1/2 (1899), pp. 2-9 (retrieved 04 May 2007)] mentioned that some Pathans had Hindu (Indic) origins. This seemed to support the claims of the several other articles I presented to you before which also discussed the possibility of Rajput (Hindu) origins. Also, I have found a source from the Census of India regarding the population of Pashto speaking Pathans, conducted by the Government of India and have placed it in the Pathan article. خدا حافظ, AnupamTalk 07:53, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Ah that's good. That was exactly what I was looking for but was having trouble finding. I searched the Indian census and couldn't find the right link, but you did. Good job. Yes, the problem is that (and I myself have to be careful) old articles written in the past were written from a perspective of less information. Since the 19th century theories have changed. No one believes they are descended from Jews seriously except for a few tribes themselves for example. Anyway good job. Tombseye (talk) 18:11, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! Best of luck to you. With regards, AnupamTalk 20:01, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject EthnicGroup[edit]

Hey, I see that you are a member in the WikiProject Ethnic Group. I was wondering if I could get your opinion on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups#Assyrian_people. Thanks for your time. Chaldean (talk) 03:29, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Azerbaijanis in Armenia[edit]

Hi. Could you please have a look at Talk:Azerbaijanis in Armenia? Since you are the main contributor to the FA article about Azerbaijani people and have a profound knowledge on the subject, your opinion would be of interest to the editors involved in this discussion. Thanks very much. Regards, Grandmaster (talk) 10:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


Check your email. Khoikhoi 20:21, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Films August 2008 Newsletter[edit]

The August 2008 issue of the Films WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 01:34, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Watchmen FAR[edit]

Watchmen has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. Gary King (talk) 15:47, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Image permission problem with Image:Leyla.jpg[edit]

Image Copyright problem

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Pashtun people[edit]

If it's not troubvle for you, can you please kep an eye on the info box on Pashtun people? I've added some nice pics of Afghan and Pakistani notable Pashtuns but someone (probably banned User:Beh-nam) is keep removing them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:45, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Notice the above IP is a sock of indef-blocked of User:NisarKand, so please don't pay attention to what he asks --Enric Naval (talk) 22:07, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Horror needs your help[edit]

Tombseye : You've received this message as you are listed as a WikiProject Horror Participant. As you may have noticed, WikiProject Horror has suffered from a lack of direction and coordination of late. A suggestion on how to improve the Project and maintain it as a viable resource has been placed up for discussion here. As a member of the Project, your voice is valued and your input is requested. Thank you, hornoir (talk) 23:21, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Horror Newsletter - February 2009[edit]

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WikiProject Horror Newsletter - March 2009[edit]

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WikiProject Horror Newsletter - April 2009[edit]

The WikiProject Horror Newsletter
Volume I, no. 3 / April 2009
Previous issue

The Coordinator nomination has been extended! Crystal 128 kuser.png
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Request for comment[edit]

Hey Tombseye,

You previously talked about genetics on the sinhalesee people page.I made a request for comment on the Sinhalese people talk page. I would appreciate it if you could make a comment.

Many thanks, Wikinpg (talk) 12:54, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Click here for Sinhalese RfC

Self-published book[edit]

I'm working on compiling a book containing information about almost all Non-indigenous ethnic groups living or working in Pakistan. The population of a particular ethnic group would be obtain respectively from their diplomatic missions in Pakistan including regions with significant populations, languages spoken and religious affiliations. I'm not very good with writing so it would be great, if you would like to collaborate with me.-- (talk) 06:12, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Azaris in Iran Article[edit]

Hello Tombseye

I was trawling through the Azerbiajani Peoples archives and I came across you. I immediently knew you were a nuetral source and had no vested interest which is what most people lack. I also saw you exelent work although there are always room for improvements. I am going to request your help to resolve the numerous issues we have in the Azaris in Iran article. Our issues concern the human rights reports, the naming of the article, the population and many more. I would be greatful if you could have a look and try to resolve this knot. Thank you, regards, Tugrul Irmak.Tugrulirmak (talk) 21:06, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

File permission problem with File:Shohreh.jpg[edit]

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File permission problem with File:ShohrehAghdashloo.gif[edit]

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WikiProject C-SPAN?[edit]

Greetings fellow Wikipedia editor -

I am leaving you this note because I have reason to believe that you are interested in C-SPAN. (I may have made this assumption based on your C-SPAN user box, or perhaps for some other reason.) If this is not an interest of yours, please feel free to read no further and delete this message.

If you are in fact someone who is interested in C-SPAN, then let me put forward an idea that I have been kicking around for a while. What if we started a C-SPAN WikiProject?

The parameters of this (potential) project are up for discussion, but it could include some or all of the following (as well as things that may occur to you that have not occurred to me):

  • Creation, maintenance, and improvement of articles and lists directly related to C-SPAN and its programming.
  • Use of C-SPAN programming in citations for various topics
  • Inclusion of unique and targeted C-SPAN video links for various articles. (Doing this with respect for established guidelines at Wikipedia:External links.) (Example: If you are interested in the submarine USS Wyoming (SSBN-742), then having easy access to the eight hours of programming taped while a C-SPAN crew were guests on that submarine could also be of interest to you.)
  • Inclusion of (and possible further creation of) templated links such as {{C-SPAN|laurabush}}, that will easily take article readers to a link of all C-SPAN Video Library links for the person about whom the article is about.
  • What else?

I don't know exactly how far we may want to go, nor in what directions, but I do believe (as I have long noted on my user page) that C-SPAN and Wikipedia are both...

...fantastic vehicles for the free exchange of ideas and information in a non-sound-bite manner, and they both invite the participation of any parties (expert or amateur) who are interested in taking the time to absorb and/or contribute to the ideas and information offered. C-SPAN and Wikipedia go together like peanut butter and jelly, and I want to help give other Wiki users easy access to the great work that C-SPAN has done on a variety of topics.

Now, I should mention that I have never started a WikiProject before, and I do not know the best way to go about it. (Perhaps one of you do?) Let me offer one of my sandbox pages, User:KConWiki/sandbox/Wikiproject C-SPAN?, as a gathering area for comments until such time as we gather enough steam to start our own WikiProject page.

Thanks for reading this far, and I hope that you will give some consideration as to whether this is something we ought to attempt. Please feel free to pass this message on to others you know whom might be interested, and please let me know your thoughts and comments.

KConWiki (talk) 03:36, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open![edit]

You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:56, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Pashtun (version 2) listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]


An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Pashtun (version 2). Since you had some involvement with the Pashtun (version 2) redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Notecardforfree (talk) 22:36, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Women in Red World Contest[edit]

Hi. We're into the last five days of the Women in Red World Contest. There's a new bonus prize of $200 worth of books of your choice to win for creating the most new women biographies between 0:00 on the 26th and 23:59 on 30th November. If you've been contributing to the contest, thank you for your support, we've produced over 2000 articles. If you haven't contributed yet, we would appreciate you taking the time to add entries to our articles achievements list by the end of the month. Thank you, and if participating, good luck with the finale!

  1. ^ "Azerbaijan: People", Encyclopedia Britannica (retrieved 11 June 2006)
  2. ^ An Introduction to the History of the Turkic Peoples by Peter B. Golden. Otto Harrasowitz (1992), ISBN 3-447-03274-X (retrieved 8 June 2006).
  3. ^ a b c d "Turkic Peoples", Encyclopedia Americana, volume 27, page 276. Grolier Inc., New York (1998) ISBN 0-7172-0130-9 (retrieved 8 June 2006). Cite error: Invalid <ref> tag; name "Americana" defined multiple times with different content (see the help page). Cite error: Invalid <ref> tag; name "Americana" defined multiple times with different content (see the help page). Cite error: Invalid <ref> tag; name "Americana" defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
  4. ^ a b c The New Encyclopedia Britannica (2002). Page 756, ISBN 0-85229-787-4 (retrieved 17 Feb. 2007).
  5. ^ a b c Grand Dictionnaire Encyclopédique Larousse (1982). Page 921, ISBN 2-03-102301-2 (retrieved 17 Feb. 2007).
  6. ^ a b c The World Book Encyclopedia (2003). Page 997, ISBN 0-7166-0103-6 (retrieved 17 Feb. 2007).