User talk:Travelbird/Archive 4

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Perhaps I didn't make myself very clear on my last passage on the Serbian exonyms; I'll leave that for the moment. Originally I thought that you were Serbian (or affiliated with the Balkan/former Yugoslavia) but according to your user page, you're multilingual though appear to be from somewhere else. Do I take it that you aim to standardise all exonym related pages as you are doing with Serbian? The reason I ask is that many are in the form to which I had hitherto adhered. How did you know that Sakartvelo was Georgia? And how did you know that Hayastan was Armenia? This isn't the name in Serbian, or in any European language: I thought that if I would write "Hayastan" in Cyrillic (believing you to be Serbian), it would be harder for you to unscramble it (ie. Hajastan in transliteration, which on English Wiki leads nowhere). The Serbian name for the country is simply Јерменија (Jermenija). How come your knowledge is so good? Evlekis 16:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you're right in that I'm working not only on the Serbian exonym pages, but rather trying to extend all exonym pages. It's obviously easier with languages that I personally have a knowledge of that.
How do I know that Hayastan is Armenia and Sakartvelo is Georgia ? There's no real answer to that - I just know. I've had an interest in geography and toponymy for many years now, so I guess, if you've read so much on the subject as I have, you know the odd "factoid". I first got interested in exonyms over 10 years ago when I did a paper on Slovakia and got incredibly annoyed when I kept having to guess what all the Hungarian and German names in the old gazetteers translated into in modern Slovak. Since there wasn't anything published (available) on the subject back then, I had to establish most names myself by comparing maps - not a very good technique, especially for smaller villages !
Btw : Hayastan and Sakartvelo are some of the very few countries in Europe whose local name is not widely used out side of their respective country. The only others I can think of are Deutschland (Germany), ΕΛΛΑΣ/ΕΛΛΑΔΑ (Greece) and Suomi (Finland) and to some extent Magyarország (Hungary). Travelbird 22:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I forgot about this! You're right. Obviously Hrvatska is not the most obvious for Croatia, and it isn't 100% clear whether Croat and Hrvat are related; there are many theories, none empirical. I guess you can say Alba (Scotland) and Cymru (Wales) as well. Shqipëria for Albania is one that you either know or you don't, but just for your information. I know a little something about Sakartvelo. Georgia as a state occupies a region of the Caucasus known historically as Kartvelia, important for people with an interest in Indo-European languages. Georgian is not Indo-European and I think that Kartvelia is Caucasian (Georgian) in origin, but never the less, the Sa- which precedes -kartvel(o) is just a Georgian common prefix. Incase you were interested. Evlekis 15:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Cross-border town naming[edit]

Care to explain your reasoning? How are Altlandsberg and Gorzów Wielkopolski related as cross-border towns? The driving distance between then is 140 km (according to Balcer 17:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, never the less Alt Landsberg (Old Landsberg / Old Gorzów) is the "old" town to Neu Landsberg (New Gorzów). The "Neu" of Neu Landsberg was dropped in the late 1900s, so when the town became Polish in 1945 Landsberg became Gorzów instead of Nowy Gorzów. But nevertheless you still have the Gorzów / Landsberg naming connection. The relationships is similar to Neuf-Brisach and Breisach or Oradea and Kisvárda. Travelbird 17:52, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Read the what the page says: Cross-border town naming occurs where towns or villages with the same or equivalent names are divided between two different countries. Altlandsberg and Gorzów Wielkopolski clearly do not fall into this category. They were never a single city. By your reasoning, we should add York and New York to this list as well. Balcer 17:59, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Indeed - What you are refering too is a divded city, not cross-border naming. Most of the towns on the list were never one town - it's only the name that is "divded". I'll re-write that section to claify it a bit. In addition to the examples above there are als Helingborg / Helsingor or Sas van Gent / andGent.
As for New York and York : I have currently excluded all towns where there is one "mother" town and many other towns named for that one town, e.g. all New Yorks, New Berlins, New Londons etc, because these are not particularly notable. If there are only two then there is usually some kind of interaction, most often that "old" is added to the official name of the older town, while in the latter case the "mother" town doesn't take much notice of the new towns being named for it. Travelbird 18:08, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed the "up to service the border" bit from point 2, so that it now reads "*A community on one side of a (future) border grows up, and takes the name of the adjacent community on the other side of the border. That should be sufficiently clear to include Altlandsberg/Gorzów and the others. Travelbird 18:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I am beginning to understand the criteria by which you want to populate this list, but I must admit I do not see much use for a list based on them. On the other hand, a list of cities forming a single urban entity but divided by a border and carrying a similar name would be quite useful, and I believe this is what this article was meant to be.
Still, I am not going to fight revert wars or hold long discussions over this obscure page. Over and out. Balcer 18:20, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
As for the divded town list : There is a seperate list for that at Divided cities which also includes name that are not related, e.g. Forst and Zasieki as well as historical divisions such as East and West Berlin or Nicosia Travelbird 18:25, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying I'm not important?[edit]

You have said that I'm not a notable person. I thought it was God's teaching that we are all equal. Therefore, we should all have a Wikipedia article. What say you? RollingPaul 19:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Information about yourself should be put on your Wikipedia:user page and not on a mainspace article. That is reserved for people that are actually famous. Travelbird 19:12, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Ah right...I suppose you've never heard of Paul Stefanson (me) then. I am the local bowls champion. I suppose winning a little competition at your local leisure center against a bunch of OAPs (and it isn't even a competition, just a practise), doesn't make me notable then. Ah well, life does that sometimes. RollingPaul 19:14, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Yup. I've won my local tennis club's competion a few times. Unfortunately I don't have a Wikipedia article either. Live is so unfair isn't it .... Travelbird 19:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Isn't it just. Perhaps if you won it once more? RollingPaul 19:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


i think that just because someone is a communist, that doesnt give you the right to persecute them. we live in a country called america. in america, we have a thing called the freedom of expression. if you continue to violate my personal rights, i will have you prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AngryGiraffe (talkcontribs) 17:16, 22 February 2007

Don't add randon pictures to artciles to promote you own personal political views. Travelbird 17:17, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
maybe just because people are communists, they aren't important either. take a look a stalin or gorbachev or even lenin. how can a system of government that proclaims everyone as equal be right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by AngryGiraffe (talkcontribs) 17:16, 22 February 2007
You can be anything you like. Just don't add random images to articles that have nothing to do with communism. Travelbird 17:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

List of most wealthy historical figures[edit]

Some nice person has gotten around to translating this, so if you're interested in moving it to History's richest people, feel free! :) -Yupik 07:52, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I personally don't care too much about the title. Now that the page has been moved to fromThe History Richest People to an acceptable title at List of most wealthy historical figures I'll leave it up to others to decide if the page should be moved again. Travelbird 08:01, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok! :) -Yupik 11:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


Dxfgvfdgdf 18:14, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Rachel Zevita[edit]

I hate Communism as well and Ronald Reagan is my hero. Will you please reconsider your stance on Rachel Zevita. Check out her myspace page and watch her American Idol audition. She rocks! By the way, do you get to make decisions about deleting articles and if so, what is the best way to persuade you guys to leave someone's article be? Thank you. 'Moellering2007'

Artciles are deleted on Wikipedia due to a varity of rules. One that is probably most applicable in this case is Wikipedia:Notability (people). One criterion for notability is that is should be permanent, i.e. people should remember him/her one, two years down the road. In your case, Rachel Zevita's only claim to fame is that she appeared on a TV show once. That alone doesn't qualify for sufficient notability.
The best way to get people to "leave your article alone" is to establish such notability. In this case, however, that may prove difficult. Note also that the article had already been deleted 4 times; recreating it again way bound to cause discussions. Travelbird 02:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Champ Car[edit]

The article was severely vandalized, and you applied a speedy delete tag to the vandalized article. I have reverted the article to something proper. The series is highly notable, and it was the sanctioning body for the Indianapolis 500, and it is a premiere racing series in the United States. Please be more careful and check the edit history of an article next time. Thanks! Royalbroil T : C 05:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Good work...[edit]

... keeping an eye on all these SummerThunder socks. It's been fun :) – riana_dzasta 08:50, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks ! Travelbird 08:51, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Chief Pastors[edit]

do you think putting Jesus as chief pastor is vandalism? who are you to remove him —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nonmaus (talkcontribs)

Well - he obviously doesn't belong on a list of pastors of The Pentecostal Mission. That's a list for humans. Travelbird 13:24, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
so Jesus was not human

Don Spiers would never use the title Chief Pastor because he said it belonged to Jesus

reference 1 Peter 5:4 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nonmaus (talkcontribs)

The point of the list is to provide information on people that have have lead the above church. Not to make theological statements.
And also : Please post your comments here, and not on my userpage Travelbird 13:33, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

sorry, new at this how do you get the comment that tuthomas was strong against terrorism? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nonmaus (talkcontribs)

Sorry, you'll have to help me out on that one. I didn't comment on "tuthomas" or terrorism. What are you refering to exactly ? Travelbird 13:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

4th paragraph of article, also in TPM article and in TPM, no way there are 6.7 millions members i would be very surprised if there were 250,000 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nonmaus (talkcontribs)

I removed the dubious claim as it was unsourced.
Also : remember to sign you name on talk pages (with four ~~~~) Travelbird 13:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
the source you have is for all pentecostals in india i think

not The Pentecostal Mission

don't know what you mean about signing name with four marks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nonmaus (talkcontribs)
Signing (see WP:Signature for more information) is done by typing four ~~~~ after your comment. It is done, so others can see who it was that commented. After saving the page the four tiles automatically turn into something like this : Travelbird 20:34, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

My articles[edit]

Must confess, I'm still learning on the fly when it comes to Wikipedia, so I'm not sure if this is the proper way to communicate with you, Travelbird, in response to your comments. Anyway, just wanted to say your point is well taken and I do believe, in my understanding of Wikipedia regulations, that the articles I'm constructing do meet guidelines for notability. And I've only just begun building them from the bottom up, so to speak, so right now some of them, which you cited, do not give any meaningful information but they will in time. It's just taking a bit of time to construct this web of articles on professional roller hockey. Sorry if the articles seem haphazard at this point. I'm going to keep working. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rollersniper (talkcontribs) 04:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

Try and add a bit of information to the articles. Articles that just one sentence "Matt Denton is a professional roller hockey player for the Tour Mudcats, which competes in NARCh Pro and TORHS Pro tournaments." don't really provide any information that isn't already included on other pages like Tour Mudcats. If the pages don't get expanded, they are likely to be nominated for deletion by other editors checking new edits. So - if you can expand and explain why they are notable as single people. Travelbird 04:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Definitely. I think this page: LA Pama Cyclones is a good example of the depth these articles can and will reach with a little more work on my part and by others in the roller hockey community who will contribute when they know these pages exist in the first place.


Leave My edits alone, and don't blank my talk page. Damn Monkey 04:51, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

If you continue to vandalize pages and remove vandalism warnings from you talk page, you will be banned. Travelbird
If you continue to vandalize my talk page, you will be banned. Damn Monkey 04:53, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

travelbird, what are you going to do if i dont comply with your request? probably nothing i would assume. so dont bother threatening me because it will not work you cannot silence me.

If you persist vandalizing you will be banned. Its as simple as that. Travelbird 05:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

define vandalism for me then.

Take a look at WP:Vandalism for more information. Travelbird 05:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

i really dont think you will do anything but for now i will comply. however it will not be for long. you will not expect it when i decide to "vandalize" again. sorry.

Fortunately there are other editors out there as well. And there sure to catch you. Travelbird 05:28, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

i dont think they will. it will be so minor and minescule that no one will catch it, unless they are reading so very closely and are that educated to know that the information i add is incorrect in any way.

Trust me - they will. Travelbird 05:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Zoubida Rezig[edit]

It's not spam my grandmother has shown me the contract she signed to be the very small role to be in this movie please do not remove this it means a lot to her —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thatdude23 (talkcontribs)

Unfortunately your grandmother does not pass the Wikipedia notability guildlines outlined on WP:notability. To be included in this encyclopedia she has to be well known to a large number of people, or be particularly notable for a certain achievement. Travelbird 05:38, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


Suggest you report Boyobog at WP:SOCK. He only had one edit, so I could only block for 24 hours.Rlevse 11:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing me to that page. I'll keep that in mind, next time I come across sock puppets. Travelbird 12:15, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


Hi, You changed my speedy deletion nomination from "nonsense" to "attack page". The article has been expanded to include even more gibberish than before, so I have renominated it as nonsense alongside your nomination Jules1975 14:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

That's fine with me. Unfortunately vandals often change there pages from atack to gibberish and then back again, so the correct CSD tag often varies. But essentially the page is going to get deleted with any CSD tag, as administrators often check the page history when deleting. Travelbird 14:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


There's nothing easy that can be done. Sorry to bear bad news. -- Cyrius| 14:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Pitty ! 14:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Names removed[edit]

You just removed several names in need of adminstrative attention from WP:AIV. Please refrain from doing this. They were not added by a vandal and were added per appropriate policy concerns in relation to WP:U. Thanks -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 15:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure that they were indeed added legitimately ? None of them had any edits in their edit history. Travelbird
Some of them should not have been reported to WP:AIV however an adminsitrator should take care of that. Most of them were gross and blatant violations of wikipedias username polices. If you read up on these policies you will see why they were reported there. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 15:32, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

This edit to WP:AIV[edit]

[1] - describing edits made by any editor in good standing, let alone an administrator, as "vandalism" is unacceptable. Do not do it again, please. Proto  15:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. I checked the names and non of them seemed to have any contribs. If I made a mistake, please accept my apologies. Travelbird
A have a further question, just so I don't get this wrong in the future : Currently (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • filter log • block user • block log) - username --Betacommand (talkcontribs
is listed on the list. IF I click on "contribs", none are shown. Just so I understand this : Why is this user being listed on the page ? Travelbird 15:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
names ending in .com are not permitted per wikipedias username policies. Please read this policy before criticising other editors about there actions. I understand that your edits were in good faith so that is why i was frienedly about it! In the future, either a.) let an admin handle it or b.) review this history, find who added, warn them appropriatley and ensure that what you rae removing is actualyl vandalism. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 15:44, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


I came across "Österheim" whilst looking at a Barnes and noble historical atlas(Revised Atlas of World History). It is marked as such in 1250 a.d. and has "Buda" right below it, but then the next page showing 1300-1450 shows it as "Gran". -- Hrödberäht (gespräch) 07:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I will mark the entry as such. Travelbird 08:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

French v. Walloon[edit]

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with your point of view. Walloon language is a “langue d’Oïl” language just as French is. But it belongs to another sub-family. Moreover, this issue has already been discussed on the talk page ([2]) and the conclusion clearly was that Walloon is not a French dialect. From the Wiki fr page on Walloon, it also clearly appears that Walloon and French are different languages and that Walloon cannot be viewed as a French dialect.

I have been myself used to speak Walloon and I can tell you that a French citizen is absolutely unable to understand Walloon since for him it is a foreign language, just as Italian or Spanish, even if all theses languages have common roots.

French is a language initially spoken within the Francien zone, while Walloon is a language spoken in the Frankish zone. This means that stricto sensu, the only “real” French dialects are those spoken in the Francien zone (i.e., the area surrounding Paris and the “Ile de France”).

In fact the relation between French and Walloon is the same as the relation between German and Dutch. They have common roots, but are different languages. Would you call Dutch a German dialect? --Lebob-BE 10:39, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

From what I read and understand Wallon is much closer to standard French than Dutch is to German. And even Dutch used to be considered a dialect of German until 1945, when that perception was changed mainly due to political reasons. The fact remains that most (academic, not advocacy group) reports have Wallon as a dialct of French. I might also add that official site of the Wallon region also calls Wallon a dialect (see Travelbird 11:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
This is what I read on the reference you provided: "Picard, wallon, gaumais, ces langues régionales endogènes, font partie du patrimoine culturel de la Wallonie où personne ne conteste que la langue française est la langue officielle.". I don't think that "langue régionale endogène" means dialect. Moroever, for being used to speak Dutch and German as well, I can testify that Walloon (and certainly the Walloon that is spoken in the Province of Liège) is certainly not closer to standard French than Dutch is to German.
There are also other references where a clear distinction is made between French and Walloon ([3]). In fact, both are born around the same period of time (i.e. between the 8th and 12th centuries). Since then, Walloon has had its own evolution and did in fact have not links to the French language. Indeed, the area where the Walloon language is spoken fits more or less with the boundaries of the ancient Bishopric of Liège, which depended in fact from the Holy Roman Empire and not of the Kingdom of France. This means that there were quite limited influence of the French language on the Walloon language but in the contact areas between these two languages. Therefore, I still believe that considering the Walloon language as a French dialect is still a mistaken approach. And I cannot consider this as an original research. --Lebob-BE 14:53, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Essentially it boils down to this : Some consider it a language, some consider it a dialect("patois", "les dialectes contestèrent le rôle de langue maternelle au français", see abobe source). So that fact needs to be included in the article. Thus "erroneously" is taking sides/POV. If you want to include an adjective, you could use anything from "almost always" to "almost never", but you would have to back that up with sources. Since that will probably prove difficult, it is best to stick with "sometimes", "by some", as that is most neutral as to the number. Travelbird 15:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


The answer is yes. --PaxEquilibrium 21:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

There Pax has answered your question! Very direct isn't he?! Seriously, I see why you ask such a question. Naturally, "Saraevo" isn't a true exonym because its basis is on the local name, but there is a difference in pronunciation hence the spelling. As you may know, Slavic languages are consistent in photenics. Russian "E" alays has a slight "y" sound to precede it, for them to create the hard "e" sound, they use Cyrillic "Э". So if they write "CAPAEBO", I guess that is the Serbo-Croat equivalent. But in Bulgarian and Macedonian too, they do pronounce "e" straight after "a". So the choice is yours whether it stands as exonym. More controversial is Croatia's "Rieka". Most names in Serbian and Croatian often have "y sound" before letter "e" after vowels. Not so with Bulgarian and Macedonian. It is supposed to be photecially acknowledged but when that vowel is "j", whether or not it makes a difference sound is up to you. Italians write "Italia" and we write "Italija" but you can hardly spot the extra sound because "j" is our "short-i" and "i" is standard, the place of articulating is the same, high back vowel. But you see, it works two ways, the Bulgarian city of "Blagoevgrad" is "BlagoJevgrad" on Serbian and Croatian. After "o" it is clear different sound. I'll let you do as you choose over this one, you know about exonyms better than me I see. Balkantropolis 07:37, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
If the spelling and the pronounciation are diffrent then usually we have an exonym. The only exception to this being alternate spellings/pronounciation which are not exact but stive to be as accurate as possible, e.g. Минхен (Latin transcription would be Minhen, but since German ch = Serbian x and the Serbian и is closest to the non-existant "ü" in Serbian, Минхен is not an exonym but a transcription. Travelbird 20:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)