User talk:Victuallers

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BremenpediA news

Hello Victuallers. Godewind asked me to tell you some news.
Good news first: The number of infoplaques in Bremen labled with QRpedia increased to 145, see BremenpediA. And QRpedia will go on: In 2015 the focus changes to sculptures, fountains and other pieces of art in urban space. You can see more here. Of course, english Wikipeda articles are most welcome.

The bad news: We have no much luck with QRpedia statistics. Statistics for about 60 items (~40%) can't be adressed by article name because of german special chars or incorrect urlencoding. I can't figur out how to adress this. Please, can you help in any way? The affected items are marked whith "-1" in the column "Anzahl" of this table.
Best regards --Quarz (talk) 17:08, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Lady Mary Hamilton

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:50, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

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Invitation: Editathon at Thinktank, Birmingham, on 7 March 2015

You are invited to an editathon at Thinktank, Birmingham, on 7 March 2015.

The focus will be on the museum's science and industry collection. We will have an exclusive preview of (and be able to photograph) exhibits recently acquired for the forthcoming new Spitfire Gallery, plus talks, and the opportunity to work with curators. Assistance will be available for new editors.

A light lunch and refreshments will be provided. Booking required. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:41, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I'll be there! Victuallers (talk) 09:01, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Womens History Month (was Henriette Arendt)

Hi Victuallers. Glad to see you are helping to document women writers but I cannot find any evidence that Arendt was among them. Perhaps you got your lines crossed.--Ipigott (talk) 12:48, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

No, I don't think so.... I did add some stuff this morning in anticipation of an enquiry of this type. I'm not sure what a "writer" is..... are we writers? This policewoman it appears (via translation) wrote about the state of women and children in Germany. I know your language abilities are much better than mine so if you read the sources and disagree then Id be happy for you to reclassify her. My driving force here is to get all the women from the DNB documented and many of these are writers. By the way, are you interested in another binge on the DYK page for women history month? Victuallers (talk) 12:57, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

I have researched this a bit and added a few lines to the article. She can certainly be classified as a writer on the basis of what I have added. I am actually already working quite intensively on preparations for Women's History Month. This year I have opted for women writers, however ambitious this may be. I have already created basic lists of Danish, Norwegian, Swedish and Finnish women writers and have written quite a few related biographies. You can find the recent ones here. I hope to cover most of the continental European countries in the same way. I think it would be a great help if you could assist in promoting some of these on DYK and of course making some additions or contributions of your own. Maybe Rosiestep who is behind WikiProject Women writers would like to help with DYK too? Several of my recent biographies could do with a bit of extra work.--Ipigott (talk) 16:39, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

(Thanks) Hmmm Ive been thinking the same. We did very well last year and the front page had about a similar number of men and women for a month.... but I'm not sure anyone noticed. I hope to fix that. I have a couple of ideas which Im hoping might come off. I'd like to see us establish some targets. How many new article would be "OK" ... same as last year? How many would be impressive? ....Twice as many? How much would be incredible? 100 editors involved with 5 articles each? Every DNB article about a woman "done"? Letters of complaint about too many women on the front page? More news follows I hope so watch this. Any nay says? Victuallers (talk) 19:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I think DYKs could also help to encourage more editors to include biographies of women as one of their priorities. So the sooner we start the better. I must say you have always been pretty dynamic on picking out interesting snippets for the hooks, not to mention handling all the tiresome mechanics of the operation. If we take women writers as our target, we should be able to include far, far more DYKs than last year. Maybe you also have some good ideas about how to rally interest in the operation?--Ipigott (talk) 20:42, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Well my first idea is here. I'm suggesting we get a stack ready in user space. They can also be DYKed at the right time. Pleased you dropped a note Ian. Cheers. Victuallers (talk) 21:11, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

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checking

If you create an article and there's a country name which is a red link, it's a clue that it might be worth checking that name! I've amended Nuaru to Nauru twice in Olympia Zacharias! Also redlinked categories shouldn't appear: I found a better one for her. Your version - my version. I just came across her while stub-sorting Category:People stubs. PamD 22:43, 10 February 2015 (UTC) Well done, I hope to find time to thank you more fully for your efforts in this area in the future. At the moment I don't have time to look at your diifs but I hope to save that for the morning. Thank you for your contributions which are all appreciated even if you make an error. Victuallers (talk) 22:49, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

This Month in GLAM: January 2015

This Month in GLAM – Volume V, Issue I, January 2015 Headlines Belgium report: SOIMA 2015; Wiki Loves Art; European Commission; FOSDEM Czech Republic report: Czech GLAM discusses why institutions are afraid to release their media France report: Celebrating public domain and more Germany report: GLAM on Tour in Wuppertal Italy report: 1600 usages for BEIC images in 165 wikis Netherlands report: Europeana Sounds edit-a-thon; Symposium & Erasmus Prize; Honorary doctorate for Wikipedia; New years drink Spain report: Europeana Fashion Edit-a-thon; Wiki Loves Monuments 2014 Awards ceremony; Benito Prieto Coussent Sweden report: Europeana; Working Life Museums UK report: Armenian Genocide; Diversity in Film; Residency Hat-Trick USA report: Philadelphia & New York Open Access report: Wikidata for research: proposal submitted; Open Access Media Importer: featured media Catalan areas report: Catalan Network of Public Libraries Calendar: February's GLAM events Read this edition in full • Single-page To assist with preparing the newsletter, please visit the newsroom. Past editions may be viewed here.

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How To Pick Up More Women ...

My proposed Wikimania talk "How To Pick Up More Women" is here

Copied reply from his talk page

No problem. I'm pretty sure that the Wikidata dimension is à propos, and represents a good new direction in finding redlink lists aimed at the gender gap, in particular. Are you familiar with mix'n'match? It is a data entry tool for Wikidata; but the effort can also be used to track down missing persons. Note for example the "Women in Science" and "CLARA" catalogs.

So that is at the research end: generating the articles, as you do, is also worth it! Charles Matthews (talk) 20:44, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Hmmm Victuallers, I'm glad you want to tackle this topic. That said, I don't know your intended audience, but while the clever and mildly naughty title does get one's attention and will attract existing male editors and could be useful for a workshop on the topic of how to not be a WP:DICK, I have to say that as a woman who is already a WP editor, that title would not draw me in at all, (unless, perhaps as a presenter with advice...) mostly because I'd feel self-conscious and nervous that such a workshop would draw a bunch of adolescent-minded trolls that hope to meet girls - and a few flirty or bawdy women who think the title is funny ... but it's an approach that will discourage the specific editors who are the most likely to be missing at present - academic, professional, mature adults. Also, women in general (and I'm overgeneralizing a bit) tend to be conflict - adverse and prone to quit the project rather than dig in and fight. You will notice that most of us gals who stay are a wee bit on the feisty side, but even among WP editors, I find that many of the editors who self-identify as women on WP are more conflict-adverse than the average WP editor; many just avoid working in high-conflict areas or on high conflict topics. I avoid a gender-disclosing username on purpose and I've personally had few problems related to gender, but I'm pretty feisty even in real life ( I have a career with a lot of high-conflict situations, I view WP editing as a form of relaxation - most of the time!)Montanabw^(talk) 04:51, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi Montanabw .... thanks for the reply. This is intended to stimulate in the intellectual way (only!). I myself try to avoid high conflict areas, which is maybe why I'm attracted by the gender issue (having daughters helps!). However if we want to fix things then we need to discuss/reclaim them. I am up for extending the presentation so lets talk more. The title is a "hook" and if we can attract the stereotypical nerd editor (I'm not sure these guys exist per se) then that's the ones we need to change their direction. Can you comeback with more? I also think that this is an issue that we all need to solve. We have too few female editors - this is a big problem. We need to change/shift the direction of the editing effort. There is some good stuff going on. How do we give those bits more power. More? Victuallers (talk) 10:22, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Glad to see Rosie is supporting your approach but I also note that at least one other editor shares my concerns. I'm not too sure how the Wikimania thing works but if you are required to make a presentation I would suggest you team up with at least one woman. Here are my reactions to your specific questions:

• Is there a way that we improve our productivity in creating articles about women? I think a targeted approach is called for, maybe along the lines of specific WikiProjects like Women writers, or even on a country or language basis, maybe by sensitizing the countries involved. Ideally a female ringleader for each area should be identified. In addition to biographies, I think we should also address more general areas of achievement, for example the success women are enjoying in Scandinavian crime fiction, in youth awards on the music scene, on the academic front or in politics.

• Should we try and avoid English speaking white women so that we increase our benefit? We should certainly not avoid anything but we could indeed try to put more emphasis on non-English speaking women and perhaps on women's initiatives, associations and successes in at least the world's leading countries.

• Are new articles enough? Should we just make sure articles are well linked and well cited? More than just linking and listing, I think we should make a special effort to destub or expand on existing articles, especially those on important figures.

• Do you have any data on the success (failure) of overcoming systemic bias in Wikipedia? I know some such data exist but it might be useful to bring these together under one of the existing WikiProjects.

• Do women only editathons/wikiprojects help? Don't know but I expect they do. Recruitment of women editors (backed by mentoring) might lead to better results.

Much of the above could of course be achieved outside the conference too but a good presentation would help. I look forward to seeing how this develops further.--Ipigott (talk) 09:12, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks so much for the feedback Ian. I'm up for extending the presenters and I see that one has tentatively offered above. This is not intended (obviously) to reinforce stereotypes but to look them clearly in the face. Some of the problem is due to stereotypes I suspect. The nerdy wikipedian is just one of them. I'm pleased that this has stimulated some discussion. I was initially worried that you had taken me seriously.... I can see thats fixed. Cheers. I hope to comeback for more. Victuallers (talk) 10:22, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I think the title is catchy and the topic is important. Definitely, this needs at least one woman co-presenter to avoid the semblance of being just a titillating, hoot-producing presentation -- a mature editor(s), respected by the community. I'll continue with my comments later, but RL is calling. --Rosiestep (talk) 15:33, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Like And Rosiestep would be a good one! Montanabw^(talk) 22:35, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

A co-presenter is fine (t & c apply :-) ), but I don't want to PC out the hook. I do hope there is a chance that a lot of editors will want to come to a lively and stimulating presentation - although only one person has said they want to come up to now! (If we can people to look up from their mobile phones and laptops then thats only a start). I want to make sure that we calm it down not by dumbing down but by establishing a challenge of showing how they can help. I struck this, to de-emphasise me teaching you to suck eggs....It said, After all, when we say its our project then it includes us all. We are all involved in the systemic bias and it requires more than a minority to make a mark on the issue. I know I'm teaching to the converted. What does cultural anthropology say about making change? I know about this from business and education, but not what the academic view is. Victuallers (talk) 16:21, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

(Reply to the general question about support, not to the above:) I am not sure I even understand the title. I am a woman who works well with both men and women, - actually don't care who is what (I made funny mistakes guessing gender), - so I don't think I be of much help. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:27, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

(Gerda, the title is a pun: see pickup artist). Montanabw^(talk) 22:35, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

• • I definitely support the concept of the talk, I think Rosiestep and I both worry about the "titillating, hoot-producing presentation" - but that can be done with a solid co-presenter. To be very blunt, white English-speaking women are pretty damn critical to all of this, and it needs to be someone (like Rosie, who I have met in RL), who gets it about the breadth of the issues and doesn't take a "paint it pink and be cute" approach. The WMF has positively sucked at dealing with this issue - the real issue, IMHO is that people need to feel they have a community and a connection to continue editing. So the tech is not the problem, and the layout of the main page is not the problem, the problem is the endless trolling and debating and playground stupid-fights-over-nothing nonsense - and all of that can be overcome with people creating a community. (The Teahouse is, in concept, one place that can work, though I find it a bit clunky ). Montanabw^(talk) 22:35, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

@Montanabw: Sorry. text is not ideal. I feel as if I'm being strongly challenged on several fronts but I'm not sure why. "titillating, hoot-producing presentation" is not my concept and I cannot see why I need to explain again that this isnt going to happen. You may worry about this but I cannot see the rationale for your fears. Who is going to create or give this type of presentation? It isnt me. Can we assume that this is not going to happen and move on? Not sure what you mean by "To be very blunt, white English-speaking women are pretty damn critical to all of this". What is "all of this"? Or is this the previous issue? Moving on. Rosiestep is pushing at an open door with me. We have been working at DYK together for years and over the last year we have been following a very similar path. You suggest; The Teahouse is successful, but I'm not sure what success it has in fixing/ helping to fix the systemic bias. I presume it has delivered more than its fair weight of new female editors (are there figures for new editors and new articles?). Is there a reason for thinking that the WMF should have solved this issue? Have they not backed projects that had consensus as being plausible solutions? I'm not trying to be contentious here, I'm just trying to find out some high level detail. ......you say........"IMHO is that people need to feel they have a community and a connection to continue editing. " agreed. Can we build on your thought? How can this be used to deprecate systemic bias? Victuallers (talk) 23:35, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

• It's not my intent to attack. I'm not explaining myself terribly well, either. I like your concept, but the title is setting off a Danger, Will Robinson klaxon in my gut. I guess I think that the WP world has too many immature trolls for a double-entendre to work. In my comment above, I was responding to the statement "Should we try and avoid English speaking white women ..." -- surely you aren't saying we English speaking white women have nothing to say about the topic? We are the most visible targets of the problem (perhaps you not been following Gamergate or mansplaining - but those articles give a snapshot of the morass ) I'm all for women of color and/or non-English speaking women being involved too (as they usually have it even worse), but this idea that we white women are to be avoided? I guess the short version of my concern is that the "we can attract women if we pink it and shrink it" attitude that pervades WMF isn't helped by the title, even though it's clever. But the gender gap and the systemic bias issues are pretty complicated (I'm noticing a lot of systemic bias problems with the articles about Native American people, for example; I was ripping my hair out several months back over some people who didn't understand why it was very, very offensive to use the term "red Indian"...). Really, I'm not ripping you personally, Victuallers, I'm just expressing a bit of concern about potential pitfalls of a lecture title. You did ask for feedback... Montanabw^(talk) 23:26, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

+1. --Djembayz (talk) 00:49, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• My two cents: I like the idea in general, but not these two things in particular:
  • Picking up women is something you do in bars. How about just "recruit more women" or something like that?
  • Instead of "Should we try and avoid English speaking white women so that we increase our benefit?" maybe "Should we try to attract more non-English speaking and/or non-Anglo women?"

--Lightbreather (talk) 01:39, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

• @Lightbreather: I like your suggestions and have addressed both on the proposal page. Thank you. --Rosiestep (talk) 02:31, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you! Lightbreather (talk) 02:53, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

@Lightbreather: @Rosiestep: In the opening para of the proposal you will see that "Pickup more women" .... means articles about women. There is a problem of recruiting more women, but I am actually concerned about the systemic bias that wikipedia articles reflect in Wikipedia. I suspect you are reading more into the proposal than is there. I'm not sure that the systemic bias doesnt create the problem of recruiting women although I'm not convinced yet. Please however do not think that we want to "pick up" new editors. I suspect we are on the same side, can we discuss how we can assist each other ? Victuallers (talk) 17:54, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

My 2p for what its worth. Kudos for tackling an important subject, but humour doesn't always translate well, and Wikimania always has a lot of people for whom English is definitely not a first language. A renamed more focussed submission would be clearer and probably taken more seriously. More positively, I've started to ask about overlooked women as a standard question when I'm planning events and the results so far are positive. Not every event can be a gendergap event, but a lot of non-gendergap events can quietly have a gendergap element and Jane Squire should have an article! ϢereSpielChequers 00:13, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks WSC. I know that humour doesn't translate but AGF will translate, I hope, for many. This is a subject I've been working on for at least two years and I see the edit-a-thons and the new projects... I do work on the latter and I attend the former for social reasons. These are taking the subject seriously as you suggest and I hope that others would realise that Rosie and I are taking this seriously too. We have slowed our editing to work on this talk and this problem. We do need to ask about overlooked women but we have lists of hundreds of them. How are we/us/you going to make a difference? Maybe its not possible but we are willing to work and think and make a fuss about it. I'm pleased that you realise that both of us (and others) are already working hard on this problem. (I don't usually edit in talk space but in article space). Its not enough. We hope to find/propose a better idea. I would hope that few would want to attend a talk that re-explains the problem, but some will come to this talk to find out "what the fuss is about". I was worried about the title but there are now people coming forward to discuss their views and at least two people have volunteered to co-present and key Wikipedians like you are taking an interest. I'm very pleased to have @Rosiestep: who as a result of this talk is going to Mexico to co-present. (Sorry next bit doesn't translate) The glass may actually be a tumbler and I'm told its either half-full or half empty.... but more importantly, can we fill it? Victuallers (talk) 12:04, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I think you're making a bigger deal out of this than you need to. The topic is a good one, but the "pick up" joke, even if it's not meant to offend, is counter to your goal. Just drop it. Lightbreather (talk) 17:17, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Big deal not required. I'm quite happy to leave this subject now and concentrate on the core problem. I'm only responding to comments here. Victuallers (talk) 17:21, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Maybe this will make it easier to understand. Let's say I were going to present something about how men could behave on Wikipedia to make it more welcoming to women. Maybe I think it would be kinda cute or clever to title my presentation, "How not to be a dick on Wikipedia." Maybe I meant that to just "lighten up" the topic, but considering how hypersensitive many WP men are about not being perceived as sexist, probably a lot of them would think that presentation title would be in poor taste. Lightbreather (talk) 17:28, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

I would never attend a presentation with this title, no matter what the content is. It's not "naughty", it is a phrase connected with misogynist pick up artist culture. It is anti-feminist, it is disgusting and there is no way you can twist around the meaning to imply that means anything other than its primary association of men lying, manipulating and deceiving women in order to coerce them for sex. Have you read any PUA forums? It's hateful stuff that objectifies women and implies their only purpose is to provide sexual services to men. It's repulsive stuff. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:25, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Bravo Lightbreather & Liz; You said a mountain in one paragraph. @Victuallers, I feel very sorry for you as well as extremely disappointed in your behavior about this topic. What you think is funny isn't amusing funny or clever. PUA is for sex. It comes from the historical methods about how to "pick up more women". This isn't cute, clever, funny or topical - it's an insult to the very community you claim to be wishing to serve. On reading your talk page, I find you to be racist as well. I won't be attending any talks you give in Mexico City or elsewhere. I think your attitude is a danger to the project and recommend that you consider applying to work with a mental health professional to deal with your misogeny and racism issues. Ellin Beltz (talk) 17:34, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

That's a pretty big accusation considering that the title was changed before you made this attack. I can only presume that you require only a glimmer of evidence before you accuse people of what you perceive to be true. How are you going to accuse people who really are guilty? This is Godwin's law gone crazy. Victuallers (talk) 00:09, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

QRpedia

I like the Wikitowns map on User:Victuallers/wikitowns. Can we do the same for QRpedia? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:44, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Its all free Andy, esp. to you. Do be careful of making it too crowded. As you can see its quite busy with just the major wikitowns. See you on 8th March? As you can see from my talk described above I have been doing articles that are not about some pub in Brum. Di I get a free beer for that article? Victuallers (talk) 15:47, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Review

Thanks for reviewing Sophia Duleep Singh. This [1] is held up. It could also be posted for WHMonth or day as she was an activist for the cause of music. Could you help with its review? Thanks.--Nvvchar. 05:14, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Verónica Cruz Sánchez

I have gone back and forth, not sure if I should nominate her as a DYK for Women's month or not. Verónica Cruz Sánchez work is amazing, as are her films. But most of the women featured are not "controversial" in a sense and the topic of women's bodies always seems to be so. I created the article yesterday, so I have a few more days to decide and I'd appreciate your opinion. Too controversial or not? Thanks :) SusunW (talk) 23:12, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh do nominate her. She's a feminist looking after minorities - and a Mexican one. However do keep at eye on "neutral". I saw that women are "incarcerated"... I'm guessing they are actually imprisoned or put in custody. I didn't read all the detail but we need the reader to make a judgement based on the facts. If its bad then they will see that its bad. If you need help writing a hook then I'm very pleased to help. Victuallers (talk) 23:46, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

They are actually in prison. For up to 30 years -- average for murder in Mexico 6 years. Average for abortion or miscarriage 25-30 years. It is outrageous. I tried really, really hard to remain neutral, not hurt anyone's religious sensibilities or use "charged" words. In my head, I was screaming, but on the page, I think I stayed neutral and without any POV. I'm doing it. Both you and Montanabw weighed in the same way. Thank you very, very much! SusunW (talk) 00:47, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the education! Might be useful to include a cited sentence to explain that they ARE "incarcerated". Victuallers (talk) 08:24, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

• There is a citation at the end of the next sentence. :)SusunW (talk) 23:53, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for doing the DYK clearance. There are photos of her on the web, but I hardly understand the rules for US copyright, much less Mexican ones O.o SusunW (talk) 16:33, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Elise Otté

Thanks for including this in DYK. However, I do not think I should be mentioned in the credits as I did very little on the article.--Ipigott (talk) 07:40, 18 February 2015 (UTC) Feel free to remove yourself Ian but you are supporting this DYK effort and helping to get articles like this nominated. An accolade shared is not an accolade halved. Bask. Victuallers (talk) 14:54, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

OK. Like your proverbial turn of phrase. Thanks too for adding interesting content to Regina.--Ipigott (talk) 18:47, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/2014 oil spill on Sundarbans

Victuallers, it looks like you placed this unapproved hook in prep 5 on February 17—and you didn't promoted the template. It almost made it to the main page, but Harrias noticed it and removed it a few hours before the scheduled move. Please be more careful in future: the most recent icon was clearly the "review again" one. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:35, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

That does look like my mistake. I had created a hole and wanted to refill it. I must have not looked thoroughly enough. Glad you and Harrias caught it. Victuallers (talk) 22:47, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Anastasia Gosteva might interest you for the beginning of March.--Ipigott (talk) 18:02, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Another interesting one is Margarita Sharapova.--Ipigott (talk) 20:38, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

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Albert Stopford

Long time no see Victuallers. Could you give me a hand at Albert Stopford. I think it is interesting for a DYK, but did not succeed to understand the procedure. A further step needs to be done, section III. You are more experienced.Taksen (talk) 11:33, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Hello Victuallers, this is what he sent me User_talk:Taksen#Incomplete_DYK_nominationTaksen (talk) 09:16, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Albert Stopford is now done Victuallers (talk) 10:49, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm not sure the tiara is the most interesting part, but monarchists will like it.Taksen (talk) 12:16, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Blofeld

Can you ask your friend not to post his shit on Ellin Beltz's talk? Thanks. INeverCry 06:19, 3 March 2015 (UTC) As distinct from this message? See this mirror? Victuallers (talk) 16:41, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

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Yoko Hayashi

Thanks for the DYK clearance. Would that I spoke Japanese, I think I could flesh it out a bit more, but I don't. So....hopefully someone who does can give her a bit more of an interesting twist. I did, however, think that she was substantial enough to be notable and appreciate your help on getting diversity into the ranks of Wikipedia's coverage on women. :) SusunW (talk) 15:29, 4 March 2015 (UTC)