User talk:Viriditas/Archive 10

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Hawaiʻi WikiProject Newsletter - Issue IV - July 2008

Aloha. The July 2008 issue of the Hawaiʻi WikiProject newsletter has been published. To change your delivery options or unsubscribe, visit this link. Mahalo nui loa. WikiProject Hawaiʻi 13:06, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


Did you ever respond to my Kingdom of Oahu infobox? I need some help and a little opinions. Also do you know if Wikipedia has a map of Maui County without Molokai? KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:37, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Check User:KAVEBEAR/Kingdom of Oahu when you are have anything to add or improve. Thanks. KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:25, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Hello. Do you know the concept of ancient Hawaiian government? See if you can improve it on User:KAVEBEAR/Kingdom of Oahu#Government. Also read it and tell if I am getting to descriptive. KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:21, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Do you know of any other book on Google Book that could give any insight into Ancient Oahuan society?
Sure, but you have to give me a few days. I was in the library yesterday and ran across a few. Viriditas (talk) 03:25, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
  1. Sterling, Elspeth P. Summers, Catherine C. (1978). Sites of Oahu. Honolulu. Bishop Museum Press. ISBN 0-910240-73-6
  2. Becket, Jan. Singer, Joseph. (1999). Pana O'ahu: Sacred Stones, Sacred Land. Canada. University of Hawaii Press. ISBN 0-8248-1828-8.
  3. Kirch, Patrick Vinton. (1985). Feathered Gods and Fishhooks: An Introduction to Hawaiian Archaeology and Prehistory. Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press. ISBN 0-8248-0981-5.
  4. McAllister, J. Gilbert. (1933). Archaeology of Oahu. Bernice P. Bishop Museum Bulletin 104. Honolulu. Bernice P. Bishop Museum. ISBN 0-527-02210-1.
  5. Kirch, Patrick V. Sahlins, Marshall. (1992). Anahulu: The Anthropology of History in the Kingdom of Hawaii. Volume One: Historical Ethnography. University of Chicago Press. ISBN 0226733653.
  6. Kirch, Patrick V. Sahlins, Marshall. (1992). Anahulu: The Anthropology of History in the Kingdom of Hawaii. Volume Two: The Archaeology of History. University of Chicago Press. ISBN 0226733661

No need to give anymore. because these book are out of my reach. Plus I think the article is getting to wording. So thanks for the information. And two of them will be helpful for me in the Kukaniloko Birthstones article. Also do you know the status of John Young's Homestead? Is it one of Register of Historic Places of Hawaii? The ruined still exist. KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:57, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, according to the official website, Young's homestead is part of Pu'ukohola Heiau National Historic Site. Viriditas (talk) 10:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Then do I need to make a seperate article?
A separate article for what? Young's homestead? It depends. Do you already have material I can look at? Viriditas (talk) 01:04, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Do you know what happen to this site ? KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:18, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


Hi. I just created a page for Moku'ula, but started from a red link of Moku`ula. How can I make it so that people searching for Moku ula, Moku'ula, or Moku`ula all end up on the right page? I'm sure this question comes up a lot with Hawaiian entries. Thanks. Shannon.wianecki (talk) 05:50, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Shannon. Great job! This is a really important article. Although the answer to your question can be found at Wikipedia:Redirect, I'll tell you how to do it. The easiest way is to add the name of each article you want to redirect to the search box and click go. At the top, you'll see "Search results", and just below it "You searched for article title red link [Index]". Click on the red link of the article and it will bring you in to edit mode. Add #redirect [[Article title]] for each article you list above. Depending on the redirect, you may consider adding a redirect template, but this is optional. So for example for Moku ula and Mokuula, you may want to add {{R from title without diacritics}} right after the redirect code. Another option is {{R from alternative spelling}}. There are more options in the redirect category. BTW, you should nominate this for a DYK! Let me know if I can help out! Viriditas (talk) 13:01, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Mokuʻula article is good. Not sure that I agree to add Mokuʻula to Hawaiian religion. We would go crazy adding every wahi pana to it. But it would be good to link to it. Makana Chai (talk) 01:30, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
I think it lacks details. But that is just me. KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:34, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Very interesting, and a great start on the article -- a very welcome addition to the Hawaii series. I agree it needs to be fleshed out, but thanks to Shannon for taking the initiative. Arjuna (talk) 06:12, 19 July 2008 (UTC)


What Users do you know that can tell me something about Hanaiakamalama? It involves a potrait. KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:46, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you just ask me, and see if I can help? Viriditas (talk) 08:37, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I don't remember what site I came across this, but is there a potrait of Julia Alapai, or Juliana Alapai?
Emma Keliikekukahilikaleleokalahikiolaokalani Smith, who is she? I read she is the illegitimate child of Queen Emma. To me that super hard to believe. It really leaves a mark on Queen Emma's reputation. KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:00, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I looked into it very briefly and couldn't find anything. What source are you looking at? Viriditas (talk) 10:30, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Try this site . Other than this I can't find a thing.

Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 23:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Family tree

I starting one of the Davis and Young family. See if it make since to you here. KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:40, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I created Template:Davis and Young Family tree. Check this new family tree. It took me 1.5 days and I still working on Kale Davis and Alexander Adams' descendants. Tell me if it is too confusing. KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:58, 16 July 2008 (UTC) Check it
Ok. Viriditas (talk) 23:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Do you think I should include Adam's descendants? The trouble is that he married three times and I not sure how to show that. Also Alexander Adams' father was the Earl of Fyfe. Was there ever such a title? KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:31, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
It looks good so far. Include anything you think is relevant and that you can confirm/verify. Viriditas (talk) 05:34, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


WP:DENY should apply to this situation equally as well as it does to vandals, IMO. I respectfully suggest you leave the editor to his/her talk page. As I suggested at the AN/I, and concerning which the editor appeared to want to take heed, "no more comments on the editor's talk page, no more communication from the editor to this thread... and absolutely no response to comments the editor might make on his/her talk or archive page, no matter how unfairly you/we might feel the editor is misrepresenting yours or others' words." Trust me, the record is clear enough without further escalating matters. Whether this frankly strange misunderstanding is deliberate or not on his/her part (I count two "thank you"s, one "no offence", and one outright apology from you on that archive page), I don't think anything is served by continuing. The community will speak soon enough. Steve TC 22:50, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I think this is referring to NYScholar. If not sorry for getting into the wrong thread. But, Viriditas, my only criticism is that the word "claim" is problematic as it does imply that there is a question of veracity. NYScholar has felt put upon lately (I'm trying to stay neutral here as to the reasons, etc.) but because of this I think they took the question to be a little slanted. Possibly not your intent but nonetheless I think that may have happened. I also read through the talk page per your open request and I concur that I saw nothing uncivil or rude in there. "Sorry to bother you" seems like a very humble ending to a question. What I did see was NYScholar seeming rather frustrated that they had apparently put in a lot of work and people were asking for more. --Stuthomas4 (talk) 23:09, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
With the exception of the word "troll". That may have been the hot button. And believe me, as one of the people part of that massive thread on AN/I, I know how frustrating the situation can be. I've stayed out of the thread as my neutrality is obviously suspect. But I used some not-so-nice language at one point which fueled the fire in a big way. --Stuthomas4 (talk) 23:11, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Niihau Politics

Didn't the Niihauans refused to vote about Statehood or were they agaisn't Statehood all together? I don't know the view of the natives on Niihau about Hawaiian sovereignity but it should be added on to that section. Read this about the sovereignity movement of the Kingdom of Atooi. KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, that's a big can of worms. It's actually very interesting and will be fun to write about. I'll move this to the subpage to keep everything organized. You are a really big help! Viriditas (talk) 01:04, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I like writing about everything I can find about a subject I am interested in. But politic isn't my interest. KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:40, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I agree with you. But, you and I keep getting drawn into it. I've seen your edits on Hawaii-related political pages. Viriditas (talk) 10:27, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
F.I.Y. Captain James King was the man who estimate the population of 10,000.
I've got multiple sources saying different things. Botanist Archibald Menzies attributes the number of 4,000 to King and 500 to Cook. My information in the newsletter comes from Tava & Keale p. 46. I'll fix it to more accurately represent the source. Viriditas (talk) 07:55, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I added a footnote to Fornander. Thanks for you help, Kavebear. Viriditas (talk) 08:09, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Greg Mortenson

Hi Viriditas, There is some disagreement between myself and another user as to whether or not the fact that Mortenson's parents were Lutheran missionaries should be in the article (e.g., see [this). Here is User:Tauheed ashraf explanation on the issue. Can you please offer an outside opinion here? Thanks, Renee (talk) 11:56, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I would be happy to participate. I was just about to upload a photo of Mr. Mortenson, but I'll take a look at the discussion, first. Viriditas (talk) 11:58, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Ok, it looks like a simple misunderstanding. I'll take it to the article talk page. I would recommend letting this die down a bit. There's no hurry to edit war it in or out of the article. I think we can all come to an agreement here. Viriditas (talk) 12:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Sounds like a good plan. Renee (talk) 12:13, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Heeeeeeeeeeeey! You found a picture, you are AWESOME!! --MPerel 04:33, 27 July 2008 (UTC)


I dont have a reference for my edit on Hippie. I wrote it from my own experience of growing up in Kathmandu. So you may remove it if you have to. Kathmandu2007 (talk) 20:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your honest reply. I would be happy to help you look for sources if you would help me in turn. Viriditas (talk) 22:34, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Sure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kathmandu2007 (talkcontribs) 17:50, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

For you!

Original Barnstar.png The Original Barnstar
For all your great work on The Prestige. It has been a pleasure working with you and I hope to do so agan in the future. ŢĐЌ 06:02, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Greg Mortenson response

Dear Viriditas, Nope, haven't heard anything from Tauheed. If it really does put Mortenson at risk then I don't want to push it; I really respect and value all that he's doing. Regarding the images, I've tried showing him before but he doesn't seem to upload them correctly (he's uploaded plenty, but then they're deleted). I don't know if his email is enabled? Great work on the Hawaii pages, by the way. Which is your favorite island and why? (We're planning to move there for a three year stint sometime soon.) Renee (talk) 04:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Renee! Yes, Tauheed has e-mail enabled. Asking which island is my favorite is like asking a mother to choose her favorite child.  :-) If you have specific questions about Hawaii, feel free to ask me here or send me an e-mail. Viriditas (talk) 06:54, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you

My dear Viriditas, THANK you for your kind award, though honestly, I barely approach one tenth of all the work you do (which goes far too often unrecognized). It is a genuine pleasure collaborating with you on the Hawaii Project and other editing efforts. I'll see you around for the upcoming newsletter. : ) --MPerel 05:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Why ERASING there is an blue glass pyramid with an eye painted on it ????

Why don't you edit the picture to HIDE the eyed pyramid as well ?

You state that the content of my remark can not be verified! Just look at the picture! Is it a fake picture ? lolll Who are you ? Why do you erase what I wrote ?

My answer : you are paid to protect the NWO men that this eyed pyramid exactly represent. So who pays you ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 911allo (talkcontribs) 13:20, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is a fake, a toy model in fact. Viriditas (talk) 11:41, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Hawaiʻi WikiProject Newsletter - Issue V - August 2008

Aloha. The August 2008 issue of the Hawaiʻi WikiProject newsletter has been published. To change your delivery options or unsubscribe, visit this link. Mahalo nui loa. WikiProject Hawaiʻi 13:22, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Viva Burritos

Thanks for the awesome work that you and Joe Wright have done regarding the American origins of the Burrito. Also, the discussion page is way more entertaining than is the main page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 21:50, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Prince Christopher

Thanks for the link - I wasn't aware of it. Not sure we can make much use of it though, given that it simply repeats the sort of nonsensical, contradictory and unsubstantiated babble that largely comprises the "prince's" Vikesland website - and which he customarily defends by resorting to explosive hysteria, personal attacks, outright deceit and threats of legal action whenever asked to actually substantiate his assertions. --Gene_poole (talk) 08:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Re:Stranger in a Strange Land

Actually it is on the talk page. I nominated Stranger in a Strange Land (Lost). The article I think you are looking at is Stranger in a Strange Land. Mine is about an episode of Lost, not a book. --Mr.crabby (Talk) 15:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Alright, I see you've corrected it. --Mr.crabby (Talk) 15:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I apologize. That was a major mistake on my part. Viriditas (talk) 23:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


Hi. I think you did a good job in your edits to Sicko, as I agree with most of them. I don't agree with all of them, but I think that in general, they do a good job of condensing details into general summaries, and in the case of Kennewick, removing info irrelevant to the Plot that is already covered under Criticism. (I don't recall for certain, but it's possible that that latter bit was placed there by me, so thanks for fixing it). There is one thing I'd like to clarify, though: You stated that you removed the passage regarding Hannity's interview with Browning with the Edit Summary: "Removed surreptitious advertisement for Stuart Browning's film. No source available for Hannity interview or reason why this is notable" As the person who (IIRC) added that material, this passage was not intended as an advertisement, surreptitious or otherwise for that film. I haven't seen that film, nor do I have any connection with him. It was added because it was relevant to criticism of the film. Since the url is plainly visible in the Edit Field and in the saved References section, I don't see how this is "surreptitious", unless you're referring to the lack of the www. prefix, which was simply an oversight, one that I fixed. As for the lack of a source, apparently what happened was that the video was removed from that YouTube user's page, and therefore, someone removed the lack without finding a replacement source or placing a citation request tag. I found a replacement for it, but please do not accuse other editors of such intent unless you can establish it to the exclusion of other possible ones. Doing this could be construed as a violation of WP:Civility and WP:Assume Good Faith. Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 17:56, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The Hawaii Wikiproject Newsletter

I just want to commend you for how well this newsletter is turning out. I responded to your second question at the News Bureau, which I hope is better than my first answer. Thanks for being such an essential role in WikiProject Hawaii. Kudos to you! – Obento Musubi (CGS) 19:59, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for contributing to the interview. I would like to keep the discussion going, if that is ok with you. I'll reply on the News Bureau talk page. Hopefully, you can get another reply in before we get to the September issue. :) Viriditas (talk) 23:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Infobox Viewing

Lee Biu Bing
Lee Biu Bing
A Kindred Spirit character
Portrayed by Lau Dan (劉 丹)
First appearance May 15, 1995
Last appearance November 13, 1999
Occupation apprentice (early years)
Chinese BBQ shop butcher/owner

Can I cahnge to view of this to showing only the name but allowing the other info to be viewed? KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC) Check Talk:List of characters in A Kindred Spirit to see my prob.


I'm doing something wrong, but I can't figure it out. I've uploaded lots of photos to Wikipedia, so I know I know how to do it. Tonight, I uploaded an aerial photo of Lihue for the Lihue page (to replace an image that doesn't really fit). But the image isn't showing up in the article. Also, the preview isn't showing up in the lihue-hawaii-aerial.jpg image page. I can't figure out what I did wrong. Can you? -- Christopher Polihale (talk) 03:33, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I doubt you did anything wrong. The image shows up in the article just fine, but there is a problem with the preview on the image page itself. Wikipedia's servers have been having problems for the last few days, so I suspect it's something we can't do anything about. I'll make a report and let the right people take it from there. BTW, would you be interested in uploading your images to Commons in the future? That way, all the other language projects can use your images. Let me know. Viriditas (talk) 08:07, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
It looks like they are on it. I count at least three different discussions: Wikipedia:ANI#Images_not_resizing.3F, Wikipedia:Help_desk#Imbedding_an_image, and Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Problem_images. I suppose we are just in wait and see mode. Viriditas (talk) 08:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Seems to work now. Mahalo nui loa.Polihale (talk) 17:33, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Happy 4-Year-Anniversary

Nelumbo lutea blossom.jpeg

Thank you for four years of prolific, high quality contributions! You are a gem and greatly appreciated. Btw I love your edit summary here : ) --MPerel 05:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind message. I'm looking forward to working with you on University of Oxford Botanic Garden. :) Viriditas (talk) 12:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Gerard O'Neill page move

I know it was moved a long time ago, but I would like to reconsider the page move from Gerard K. O'Neill to Gerard O'Neill. I left a comment about this on the article's talk page. Wronkiew (talk) 05:35, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I requested the move. Good work on the article. Viriditas (talk) 08:41, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

mysterious unexplained edit

You did three edits to my talk page several minutes apart earlier in the past couple hours followed by an additional edit by MPerel, also a WP Hawaii list member....and then suddenly, an edit credited to me shows a couple thousand bytes missing. I tried to restore the edit credited to MPerel but the utility doesn't allow the edit credited to him/her to be 'restored'.....this, unless my wiki naievete has me deceived, smells like a! bentnhaf (talk) 07:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I could be wrong, but it seems to be a cache issue. I've left instructions on your talk page that may help. Viriditas (talk) 09:13, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Usability report

Mobile browsing

Thanks for your help

Thanks for helping with the page move. I was unsure how to do that without losing the edit history; I'm glad you handled it. Newportm (talk) 05:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I did it again...

...'cept this time I caught myself. I went down to the "edit this page" link @ the bottom in order to see the Werdnabot template code w/ the header on/off switch you told me about. After fooling with it a bit, I decided to leave the header off and exited the edit page.....and almost everything disappeared.

I immediately went to the history page and went through the entire restoration was unsuccessful.

Can you go back in and restore the last edit that shows 31,797 Bytes and restore it?

Catching myself this time proves that it wasn't what I did that vaporized the content but that it was the limitation of my Palm technology that couldn't handle the task. Until I get access to more powerful technology, I won't try that again. ---bentnhaf (talk) 02:35, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Restored. Don't use the "edit this page" link...
  • yeah, I got that

...Try to edit by section heading only.

  • that,s how I have been doing it but thought I could at least take a gander @ the Werdnabot template w/out destroying any thing.....cannot.

...You may have to enable section editing in My preferences > Editing. The trick to doing that for the first section (section 0) is to set the section number to zero with "User_talk:Bentnhaf&action=edit&section=0" in the URL.

  • so...making this setting in my preferences will allow me access above the 1st subheading? I'll give it a shot.
  • In the event this does not allow me access to the template area above the first subheading section, I would like the 'show heading' setting in the Werdnabot template to be set to off as I'd left it. Regardless, I won't be trying the "edit this page" @ the bottom for any reason. thanx...---bentnhaf (talk) 03:31, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

If you had done that, it would have worked. Viriditas (talk) 03:06, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I did it again...cont'd

  • I couldn't find any where in My Preferences to make the "....edit&section=0" and thought I should enter the entire string in the search bar, but that didn't work either.
  • Though its not critical and I'll live with it if you don't make the change, I'd like the Werdnabot "show header" switch set to "off."
  • With my html background, I've got lots of format questions and changes that Wiki may allow me to do but I'm not gonna trouble you with any of that till I wade through all the editing I can get out of the tutorial links you've provided me with.
  • Come to think of it, I'm gonna remove all the time stamps out of you "welcome" section so that the bot doesn't throw it in the archive.

---bentnhaf (talk) 04:09, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


Do you always keep an eye on my contribution list? Scary! :-D --BorgQueen (talk) 09:23, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Cool, does this mean I don't have to wear black any more? :) Viriditas (talk) 09:29, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Hawaiʻi WikiProject Newsletter - Issue VI - September 2008

Aloha. The September 2008 issue of the Hawaiʻi WikiProject newsletter has been published. To change your delivery options or unsubscribe, visit this link. Mahalo nui loa. WikiProject Hawaiʻi 14:27, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Unverifiable Source ??

Mr Viriditas:

I added a remark on the Israel Supreme Court page. The picture of the building shows a pyramid with a circular window at the top.

I just added a note saying "Note the pyramid..." about a picture that was already present. This picture was added before me, was accepted by wikipedia.

Thus my source is wikipedia it self. It is verifiable as indeed the picture shows a pyramid.

Please tell me if you will revert my edit since it is verified.


Michel Lauzon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 911allo (talkcontribs) 14:52, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Please find reliable sources that discuss the architecture. Consensus is against your edits on Talk:Supreme Court of Israel#Photo Links. Please respond on that page. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 15:03, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


This is incredibly impressive! What would you like me to start with? I'm not sure how to resolve the Lutheran reference? Any ideas? Best, Renee Renee (talk) 12:19, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

How do you feel about handling the lead section task? Can you summarize the article in two paragraphs (based on current length)? As for the Lutheran missionary reference on Greg Mortenson, after reading Tauheed's argument and your own comments, the solution appears in how we write about his parents, not about the religion. We need to keep these issues separate. We don't even have all the information. Were his parents members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania? I think the answer is in getting more specific information, rather than speaking in generalities. Viriditas (talk) 13:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure and can't find any evidence of them belonging to the ELC in Tanzania. How about putting it the way this article does? Mortenson credits his parents, Minnesota Lutherans who served as missionaries in Tanzania during much of his childhood, for the course he has chosen. The phrase "Minnesota Lutherans" makes them sound like an ethnic group. I'll cross-post this on the Mortenson page. Renee (talk) 19:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Sounds good! :) Viriditas (talk) 22:42, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Barnstar of Diligence.png The Barnstar of Diligence
In recognition of your clear analysis and organized way of approaching Three Cups of Tea and Greg Mortenson. Renee (talk) 12:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Template:Kawananakoa Hawaiian Royal Family

Do you think they are styled them right? I am not sure if Duccio Kaumualii is the current Marquis of Montecorona (if that is even a real title). Also should I include HRH Prince David's wife, Eleanor Lendt? I'm not sure if she still alive though. And would she be call HRH Princess Eleanor or should she be call HRH Princess David. If she is alive she would only be a princess by marriage and I can't find example like her that I could follow in other Royal Family Templates. Also do you think I placed the Dowager Princess of Hawaii in the right place. Where would the consort of the former pretender go? Also I am not sure if the Dowager Princess is alive currently.KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:57, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Do you think Wikipedia could get another coat of arm of Hawaii other than the Kameeiamoku and Kamanawa one? Did not Kalakaua had his personal coat of arm (SEE HERE). This is not the best pic. Does a monarchy have to two emblem; one that represents the state, i.e. a state seal, and one that symbolize the royal family, i.e. a royal coat of arm. Was the one with Kameeiamoku and Kamanawa on it ever the Royal Coat of Arm of Hawaii? Kalakaua emblem should represent the Kawananakoas, their heirs unless they have a coat of arm of their own.KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:16, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Also what was the official name of the Kingdom of Hawaii. Was it the of the Hawaiian Islands or of Hawaii? The title of the monarch is King/Queen of the Hawaiian Islands or King/Queen of the Hawaii. Ignoring the Sandwich Islands reference, I have seen both of these in the 19th century Hawaiian legal documents and treaties. KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:16, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Good questions. I'm in the middle of something right now, but I'll try to get to it tonight. Viriditas (talk) 22:41, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Look at my Kingdom of Oahu references and further reading. I not sure what the different volumes of Fornander's Fornander, An Account of the Polynesian Race are call. KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:45, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
I notice you were able to find the population estimate on Niihau's population through history. Do you know Oahu's population through time? Like has todays' population of 800,000 exceed the ancient Oahu's population under the peaceful monarhcs such as Mailikukahi, Kalaimanuia, or Kakuhihewa. And what is the native Hawaiian count on Oahu today? KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:02, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Cordy (2002, ISBN 156647562) has the numbers for the ancient population. The native counts should be on the web. I'll put it on User talk:KAVEBEAR/Kingdom of Oahu, ok? Viriditas (talk) 11:13, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Sure KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Do you use State of Hawaii Data Book? Viriditas (talk) 01:23, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


Is the article 'Ewa Villages, Hawaii the same as an article about the Ewa District? I notice on the map that Ewa Village barely took up a dot on the map of Oahu and the Ewa District should be like a sixths of the island. I was wondering if the name origin of the district derived through Ewauli, the son of Laakona. Or if Ewauli was named after the district.

Right, they are different topics. I haven't yet approached the issue of districts on Oahu or any other island in Hawaii. My guess is that there should be one article about all of the districts in Hawaii, with appropriate redirects to island subsections. I'll definitely look into it tonight and see how other states projects are handling it. I don't know about the etymology, but that's certainly something we should have on the page! Viriditas (talk) 03:48, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Ok. Check the User talk:KAVEBEAR/Kingdom of Oahu.
This has nothing to do with anything I asked you already. But do you know any Cantonese wikipedians who know how to write and read Chinese? KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I probably do, but I can't think of anyone off the top of my head. Have you already tried WP:TRANSLATE? Let me know if that doesn't work for you and I'll come up with another idea. Viriditas (talk) 07:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Well I have been copying and pasting on my edits if I need a Chinese character. I only need it for names. But I came a character I am unsure about. It is the compound character of 木 and 同.
Have you tried asking User:Ling.Nut? He's a member of WikiProject Hawaii. I think he can help you. Viriditas (talk) 04:04, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


Any idea what to do about this? He is now rampaging all over Extraordinary rendition by the United States, removing well sourced material and adding "allegedly" at every opportunity as well as creating reams of talk page discussion by asking the same (pretty dumb) questions over and over, and accusing people of not engaging with him when they eventually give up. Even aside from POV issues, he is editing in areas where he is astonishingly ignorant of some pretty basic facts and seems incapable of understanding fairly simple concepts. That would be fine if he were merely copy-editing or whatever, but he is making substantial changes. --Nickhh (talk) 10:42, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

This was brought up on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/User:Raggz in January of this year. I suggest making another WP:AN/I report and linking to the above. Raggz claims to have a disability but this needs to be handled appropriately. I'm not sure what the solution is, but I support your position. Viriditas (talk) 22:39, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
It looks as if nothing came of that? I'm not sure I have the time and patience to build a full case for another one, with clear supporting diffs. I'm conscious of his health issues, but at the same time - as I've said to him before - editors have to be judged on their contributions regardless of any such conditions. He's been asked politely many times (and occasionally less politely) by a large number of editors to rein in his behaviour, but he just ploughs on regardless. The net effect is very damaging to articles here and is a frustrating drain on the time of editors who become engaged with him on talk pages, as you know. Oh well, I'll have a think about what to do. --Nickhh (talk) 09:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Please let me know how it turns out. If there is anything I can do, let me know. Viriditas (talk) 07:48, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Calling all active WP:NOVELS members

WikiProject Novels Roll Call
Book collection.jpg

WikiProject Novels is currently holding a roll call, which we hope to have annually. Your username is listed on the members list, but we are unsure as to which editors are still active within the project. If you still consider yourself an active WP:Novels editor, please add your name back to the Active Members list. Also feel free to join any of our task forces and take a look at the project's Job Centre to get involved!

Next month we will begin the coordinator election selection process. We hope to have more involvement and input this time around! More news will be forthcoming. Thanks, everyone! María (habla conmigo) 14:04, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject California roll call

Flag of California.svg

Hello from WikiProject California!

As part of a recent update to our project main page we are conducting a roll call to check which members are still active and interested in working on California related content. If you are still interested in participating, simply move your username from the inactive section of the participant list to the active section. I hope you will find the redesigned project pages helpful, and I wanted to welcome you back to the project. If you want you can take a look at the newly redesigned:

As well as the existing pages:

If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask at the project talk page, and add it to your watchlist, if it isn't already.

Again, hi! Optigan13 (talk) 00:37, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Amnesty International

Hey Viriditas. You reverted my edit on Amnesty International.

Please forgive my relative newness to Wikipedia - I don't know whether I've broken a tenet of the site or whether you disagree with my edit. If you have the time, I'd appreciate you setting me right.

Thanks, Jumpmanlounge (talk) 02:11, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Replied here. Viriditas (talk) 02:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Little context in Category:Muddy Waters

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Hello, this is a message from an automated bot. A tag has been placed on Category:Muddy Waters, by another Wikipedia user, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. The tag claims that it should be speedily deleted because Category:Muddy Waters is very short providing little or no context to the reader. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles.

To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait before possibly deleting Category:Muddy Waters, please affix the template {{hangon}} to the page, and put a note on its talk page. If the article has already been deleted, see the advice and instructions at WP:WMD. Feel free to contact the bot operator if you have any questions about this or any problems with this bot, bearing in mind that this bot is only informing you of the nomination for speedy deletion; it does not perform any nominations or deletions itself. To see the user who deleted the page, click here CSDWarnBot (talk) 19:20, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh my gosh!

That is so wicked, I wish I'd thought of it first! :P

Thanks for welcoming me back Viriditas :) However, I didn't say that, though at one time I think I publicly stated that I wished I'd never started WP:AN... probably quite a rash comment as it's definitely useful. The main reason I said it was that I saw a lot of people being admins, wikipedia name space editors, DRVers and not actually trying to improve the content of Wikipedia. I don't think much has changed since then, but I'm happy to be a wikignome. Unfortuately, it's far too easy to get sucked into controversy, as I did when I made a simple gesture of disgust of Kelly Martin's talk page.

But... I am back now, though I'm starting off slowly as I have a few very important real life concerns that take up a lot of my time. :) - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 13:33, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


I can deliver the newsletter next week sometime after Oct 1 14:20 UTC, will that be ok or do you think that's too late? We can always sign it up for bot delivery, though I would miss feeling at least a little useful sending it out every month : ) --MPerel 18:39, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. Happy New Year! Viriditas (talk) 02:54, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
My dearest friend, may you enjoy a sweet new year, may you know boundless happiness, robust health, and wealth of the important kind, and may your awareness of the mystery of life grow ever deeply. L'shanah tovah tikatev v'taihatem. --MPerel 18:04, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Yikes, somehow I didn't calculate the UTC right, did I?! I should have said after Oct 2 2:20, I was only off by 12 hours! I'm sure you figured that out. Sorry (:/ It looks like the newsletter is still in process anyway, let me know and I can deliver whenever it's ready. --MPerel 02:37, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


I see you reverted my edits to dioxin, which I sort of expected. Did you read my comments on the Talk page? Unfortunately these pages are poorly organized, and the chemical to which the dioxin page refers is not the chemical intended by 99.9% of uses of the term "dioxin". For example, note that the Maine reference refers to "dioxin", and points to an EPA reference [1]. The EPA reference specifically refers to 2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-Dioxin (TCDD) and Related Compounds, that is, TCDD and other PCDDs. Note that the molecular structure on the EPA page is TCDD and looks nothing like the one on the dioxin page. The EPA is not interested in the dioxin described on the dioxin page. Really, the dioxin page should be renamed as it is extremely misleading.

I am retired from wikipedia after 5,000 edits and having gotten sick of pointless arguments, but this page is just out and out wrong. I'd suggest you revert back, but I'm not going to edit war about it -- it's just another opportunity to warn my students about treating sources critically. thanks, (talk) 13:42, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

You engaged in wholesale blanking and you called a dioxin an "important" environmental pollutant and you changed the definition of dioxin, and you expected to be reverted? Viriditas (talk) 14:24, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
It's not clear what you were trying to say there -- as I said, I'm not surprised I was reverted. Did you look at the references I gave above before you reverted? I removed information that referred to a different chemical (to TCDD, not to the dioxins described on that page). My change to the TCDD page didn't redefine anything, just tried to prevent the same "dioxin" misconception. An "important" environmental pollutant? Dioxin, meaning TCDD and related PCDDs, are among the very most important pollutants, but the chemical referred to on the dioxin page is of only extremely minor interest.
Let me try to be more clear: There are two types of chemicals called "dioxin". The dioxin page refers to a single-ringed chemical which is either o-dioxin or p-dioxin. However, 99.9% of references to "dioxin" refer to TCDD and the related PCDDs, polychlorinated dibenzo-p-dioxins, which are related to p-dioxin only remotely. Unfortunately, the fact that the wikipedia page uses the word "dioxin" for the less-common o-dioxin/p-dioxin class means that the editors are confused. All of the toxicity and health and safety data which you restored to the dioxin page refers to TCDD/PCDD and not to o-dioxin or p-dioxin. You can easily verify that yourself by following the references in the page; for example, look at the EPA references on the Maine page referred to on dioxin. Did you do that before you reverted? Look at the EPA pages on dioxin, or google image search for dioxin and compare it to the molecular structure on the dioxin page, and it will be abuntantly clear that "dioxin" is generally used to mean TCDD/PCDD and virtually never to mean o-dioxin or p-dioxin. As I said on the Talk page, these pages seriously need to be reorganized.
I would encourage you to spend 2 minutes researching this before replying. (talk) 23:27, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Edvard Grieg - reply

Hello! I've left my mean (no, just kidding) reply here: User_talk:TheRationalGuitarist#Edvard_GriegTheRationalGuitarist (talk) 16:04, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 16:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome. If you check my talk page again, you'll notice I added a little paragraph...  ;) All the best, TheRationalGuitarist (talk) 16:27, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


Sure, would love to! I've actually already fixed the Magnum, P.I. article I notice listed there. Where do I post general advise? If on the talk page, could you introduce the topic by adding a thread? - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 11:49, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Done and done, except I used the current newsletter to let members know. It's not going to be delivered until later today, but this is the best introduction possible as it alerts every member to your presence and saves us from explaining on all 15 pages. As for your comments, it's fine if you just create a new section named "trivia" on the talk page. Don't worry about making a mistake; editors like myself and a few others watch every change to the project pages. Thanks so much, and if I can reciprocate in any way, do let me know. Viriditas (talk) 11:55, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I have added a note and some suggestions to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Hawaii#Trivia. - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 11:48, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Now, all we have to do is get people to read it. I'll try and spread the message on talk pages. Great work, and I hope we can raise some questions for you. I want to get the workflow down, and you've outlined it so as to be accessible in three steps. That's great! Can you create a "remove trivia" tab that pops-up, asks us for the name of the section, and then takes that section out of the article and moves it to the talk page? :) Viriditas (talk) 11:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I'd be very happy to do this, but I'm not really au fait on prepopulated templates... where would I find out more about how to create them? - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 03:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
First, were you intending to move something like User:Tbsdy lives/trivia into Wikipedia:Template messages/User talk namespace? [2]

Hawaiʻi WikiProject Newsletter - Issue VII - October 2008

Aloha. The October 2008 issue of the Hawaiʻi WikiProject newsletter has been published. To change your delivery options or unsubscribe, visit this link. Mahalo nui loa. WikiProject Hawaiʻi 17:18, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

November newsletter

Hey, I'm back for a bit, so I hope I can help you with the Newsletter for November. – Obento Musubi (CGS) 19:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Sounds great! I've got some other project ideas you might like as well, and I could certainly use the help, particularly with outreach, etc. If you are interested in getting a start on the Nov. newsletter, we need to contact User:Newportm and see where he's at with the GA criteria. Basically, we want to nominate Hokulea for GA, but there's a ton of work (mostly formatting and copyediting) that needs to be done first. Take a look at this checklist and if you can, contact Newportm on his talk page and let him know you are helping out with the Nov. newsletter which is covering Hokulea. Of course, if that topic doesn't interest you, you are free to choose a new one for Dec. (I have already proposed plate lunch, but these are all subject to input from the project) See the newsroom talk page if you have some other ideas. Viriditas (talk) 07:33, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Hawaiian Sovereignty Movement

One thought -- could we possibly move the whole draft page to the article side of the same page? I think the in-line comments work good for some stuff, but we might want to have more conceptual discussion at times, so a real talk page might help. Also I keep being reminded to sign my posts -- a minor "talk page" hazard! Mahalo, --Laualoha 19:15, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, go ahead and do what you think is best. No need to ask, just use descriptive edit summaries and drop me (or anyone else) a note. Viriditas (talk) 01:15, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

The WikiProject Novels Newsletter - October 2008

  • Newsletter delivery by xenobot 13:25, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


Hi, me again. I have improved a bit so far, yet still have lots to learn. Please tell me when you have more time, my question:If I put an article into Wikisource, how long before anyone can link or cite it?Arilang1234 (talk) 06:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

It depends on what you mean by "article". Obviously, the link is live. What kind of "article" are you uploading to Wikisource? Viriditas (talk) 07:57, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
That article is an essay written by a Chinese professor(a very prominent Chinese scholar). I am thinking, first submit it to Chinese Wikisource, then get it translated, then submit it to English Wikisource.Arilang1234 (talk) 08:35, 8 October 2008 (UTC) Arilang1234 (talk) 08:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Ok. Ch'ien Mu's essay should meet the criteria here. The essay has to be approved for Wikisource; in other words, it has to meet the criteria for inclusion, and I doubt that will be easy. I can help you if you tell me more about the essay. Where did you find it? Was it published? What is it about? Etc... Viriditas (talk) 08:57, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

MIT is the real one, the MIT. The essay is from a blog though, I suppose if I search hard enough I might be able to obtain the essay on print. That means I have to get a copy of the book, scan it and upload it somehow. Another question, if the text is in zh,do I have to do it on zh.wikisource only, or can I do it on en.wikisource at the same time?Arilang1234 (talk) 09:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Unless you have permission to distribute the essay with a free license, you won't be able to upload it to Wikisource. But even then, you would need to meet other criteria. Can you describe the essay? Viriditas (talk) 09:42, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
The essay is about Manchu's rule on China, which lasted 260 years. The Manchu era is comparable to today's communist China in (1) Both regimes treat their own people like dirt. Manchus murdered hundreds of millions of Han ethnic(majority of Chinese today is of Han ethnic. During these 60 years of communist regime, at least 80 millions chinese died of unnatural death.In the 60s, tens of millions of Chinese starved to death while communist government sold the grains to earn hard cash to build atom bomb.(2) Both regimes exercise "thought control" on their people. Manchu burned hundred of thousands of books, and communist China set up Great Fire Wall to stop its own citizens to log into the real WWW.

Professor is one of the very few Chinese scholar who are brave enough to state the facts on Manchu's tyranny on ethnic Han race. So it is very important to have professor's work enter into wiki's permanent archive.Arilang1234 (talk) 10:11, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Chien Mu 1895─1990Arilang1234 (talk) 10:20, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
What was the original date of publication for the material? Viriditas (talk) 10:54, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Round about 1952, but cannot confirmArilang1234 (talk) 15:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
中国历代政治得失 钱穆著 ISBN 7108015285. There is a English translation, I am trying to find out the ISBN.Arilang1234 (talk) 20:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Do you know who published the work? Eligible works may be listed here. If his work can be considered an official report of the government, it may be uploaded to Wikisource. But something tells me that it isn't. Viriditas (talk) 06:53, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
I can see it is not an easy job now. Thanks for all your help, I think I shall need your help more often in the future.Arilang1234 (talk) 14:04, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi, me again. I am writing on this page: I am trying to input the essay 'Modernisation and History Textbooks' onto Yuan Weishi's page, who is the author of the essay, which was originally written in Chinese. Can you have a look and give me some advice on how to improve it overall? After that I intend to turn 'Modernisation and History Textbooks' into an independent article, can you advice me on how to do it? Arilang1234 (talk) 22:22, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. The average reader isn't going to understand the "wolf's milk" reference, so you will need to explain it. It looks like a reporter for Ming Pao (2006-01-27) helps at the bottom of that link:

Reporter: The world thinks that the sentence in your essay :"We grew up drinking wolf milk" crossed the line for hinting that the Communist Party are the wolves.

Yuan: You are simplifying the problem that way. The "wolf" in the essay refers to a certain xenophobia among the Chinese since the 19th century. It is a certain narrow nationalism. It is a thought process that wants to make the class struggle expansive, absolute and unilaterial. I am not pointing at the Communist Party. I was talking about the thought process that wants to use simplified concepts to describe history in order to harm people.

You might be better off summarizing that position. Viriditas (talk) 23:24, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Re: Namaka (moon) and Hi'iaka (moon)

On second thought, the project tags really don't seem like they belong there. I guess I should've thought twice before adding them. —Kal (talk) 07:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm definitely open to it, it's just that I'm wondering how much we can contribute to these articles. If you can find a significant amount of Hawaii-related content, by all means, add them back in. Looking at the project watchlist, there's a lot of articles that we really don't know what to do with. I would like to talk more about the scope of the project and what you personally believe we should include/exclude. Viriditas (talk) 10:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


is a hoax because it goes to great length explaining the behavior by magnetic phenomena. However, what it says, without really describing it well, is that V= f(I, integral Idt) in some way. This would indeed resemble the magnetic behavior of storage ferrites with a rectangular b/h hysteresis curve by moving Bloch walls. But the explanation doesn't explain it like that. So far the article is crap. (talk) 09:36, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Is there something preventing you from fixing it? Viriditas (talk) 10:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, well explained mathematical coverage in literature, as is available for e.g. the storage ferrites. Or a lack thereof, to be precise. (talk) 20:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Have you looked recently? Viriditas (talk) 10:32, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Re: Thalía

Dear Viriditas,

I've read the BLP and I think you are right. I didn't know that content which may be harmful for living people should not be added to articles though they may be true. This was the same case on Thalía, many people say that including realistic fans, though you are not supposed to find any autentical source for it, as "official" sources (not included blogs and forums) are not supposed to write such things down. What I don't like is when people delete or revert my editions without a reason given. (I usually revert controversial content deletion or editing if I was not given a reason for it.) So, thank you for your explanation, now I see.

Regards, --El Mexicano (talk) 11:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your nice message. Viriditas (talk) 10:31, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Viriditas. You have new messages at The Obento Musubi's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Great Pacific Garbage Patch

I wanted to bring this to your attention, and I strongly suggest that this be one of the Newsletter's topics. – Obento Musubi (CGS) 22:32, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it is best to approach this as a subtopic, and then work on adding the subtopic to the main article, summary style. At the top, we would have an article on the Environment of Hawaii. One subtopic of that article would be Marine debris in Hawaii. For example, look at how Great Pacific Garbage Patch is a subtopic of Marine debris. That's one way of approaching it, but there are many ways to do this. You could also create an article about the NOAA Marine Debris Program, and they've got a lot of information on their site.[3]. Any way you choose to do it, start with the subtopic and then work your way up to larger articles, adding content and links as you go. Can you talk a little more about what you want to do? Remember, the Great Pacific Garbage Patch doesn't just impact Hawaii. Viriditas (talk) 23:26, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Current template

Hi, I noticed you added current to an article which it doesn't technically (?) fit at. Please see the discussion at Template talk:Current to help clear up the confusion over this template. NJGW (talk) 12:36, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I removed it. Viriditas (talk) 23:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Milton Hindus

  • The text of this article was merely "Milton Hindus was a long time professor in the English Department at Brandeis University. He was one of the thirteen founding faculty members. He was born in New York City on August 26, 1916 and passed away on May 28, 1998.". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:18, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 09:19, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

The overthrow of Hawaii

I'm not sure how to add my comment. I am reading Overthrown by Stephen Kinzer. As to whether one can say that the overthrow did not take place by Americans but by Hawaiians, because it was planned and carried out by people who were born in Hawaii-

Stephen Kinzer says on page 18, "It was a daring plan, but how could the rebels prevent Hawaiians, including the queen's own household guards, from rising up to defend their monarch? The answer lay off shore. Resting at anchor near Pearl Harbor was the BOSTON, a 3,000-ton cruiser that was one of the most modern warships in United States Navy."

Then Kinzer appears to quote from Shoal of Time: A History of the Hawaiian Islands. John L. Stephens and Lorrin Thurston, the two most important to this overthrow were both born in Maine. page 25, at 5:00pm, 162 AMERICAN marines and sailors landed at a pier at the foot of Nuuana Avenue Honolulu

Lastly as the Government of the United States ADMITTED to this overthrow, I don't see where the argument is.

Aicram62 (talk) 22:58, 15 October 2008 (UTC)Marcia What will it take to get this work undisputed?

Excellent question. I negotiated the removal of that information as an informal mediator between two parties. To resolve this, I suggest finding additional sources such that the weight of the evidence is beyond dispute. Furthermore, the best way to represent that position is to only cite historians and related scholars. Viriditas (talk) 23:57, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


I am putting everything related to the island of Maui into the Maui category. Towns in Maui County and on the island of Maui would seem to make sense to be put into both categories.Xnatedawgx (talk) 05:22, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually the towns on the island of Maui are not in the Geography category for Maui, but perhaps they should be. They should also remain in the Maui County category since they are a part of that jurisdiction .Xnatedawgx (talk) 05:26, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
I've stopped, but I don't see any towns listed in Category:Geography of Maui. When I started this I noticed that towns on the Island were in Category:Maui County, Hawaii, but not in Category:Maui. Should they not be in both or in one of their subcategories(Category:Geography of Maui}?Xnatedawgx (talk) 05:33, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand why Category:Maui County, Hawaii is under the Category:Geography of Maui...should it not be the other way around? If Category:Geography of Maui is referring to the island itself than you can't place Category:Maui County, Hawaii as a subcategory as it covers an area beyond the Island of Maui.Xnatedawgx (talk) 05:38, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Ok, perhaps a new category, Category:Towns of Maui for towns on the island, than this could be placed under Category:Geography of Maui and Category:Maui County, Hawaii and Category:Settlements in Hawaii.Xnatedawgx (talk) 05:43, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Well I am finished with this for now....I tend to move around a lot in categorizing and just happen to come across this when looking under resorts and of luck and goodnite.Xnatedawgx (talk) 05:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Glad to have helped, sorry to have caused any confusion.Xnatedawgx (talk) 05:49, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Your little experiment worked, in that it raised an issue that needs to be addressed in terms of uniform categorization. I'm attempting to address it on the project page in the next day or so. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 06:52, 18 October 2008 (UTC)


I agree with your interpretation of the essay and about the tagging system needing a major overhaul. Standardization would improve it considerably. I am interested in seeing what you've been dealing with. Thanks! --momoricks talk 23:56, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Hanakapiai Beach

OK, I agree, this is a recentism.

The thing is this guy was my friend and I wanted to commemorate him... Let's just leave this information for one week, so people can see it and then I'll delete this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Genezyp (talkcontribs) 17:32, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The best way for you to remember your friend is to help his family in this time. Do you think that this is what he would have wanted? You could easily write a Wikinews article that would appear linked. Viriditas (talk) 12:29, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, You Needn't

Ok. The article can be moved back, but I think on Monk's Music it is without comma, so that should be left as it is. — Twas Now ( talkcontribse-mail ) 05:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

That's not bad news at all. Changed back. — Twas Now ( talkcontribse-mail ) 06:10, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Bishop Museum and Falls of Clyde

Your criticism about the info i added about Bishop Museum to its article and to the Falls of Clyde article has merit. I had just quickly added, perhaps too quickly, the current NYTimes article about the Falls of Clyde to the ship article, and then copied it to the Bishop Museum article later. The Falls of Clyde is more my direct interest as i develop articles about National Historic Landmarks. I think that some mention of the apparent scandal about the ship is appropriate in both articles, but i agree that the intro is not necessarily the place for it and that a more balanced discussion is appropriate. I'll comment to the talk pages and/or edit the articles somewhat, but I would also welcome your help in refining the treatment in the articles. doncram (talk) 16:22, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Elephants matriarchaty

Dear Viriditas, theres abt 600 000 african elephants, at least 45% of semiadult or adult age. Those males represent roughly 50% of the species. None of those over 250 000 elephants live in matriarchaty, but they still belong to Loxodonta africana, so the species is not a matriarchat species at all. So, Im sorry, although you read this in some books, its not true. Most of them go back to what Cynthia Moss wrote in 1988, but she never ment that the whole species lives in matriarchaty, and a reader of the books must also clearly understand this.

On the other hand, I doubt that theres anything like patriarchaty exisiting in the mammal world. Those terms are not used by ethologists at all, as far as I know.

The whole meaning of using the term matriarchaty in a wikipedia article becomes extremely desinformative: people may actually belive that adult males subordinates under the females.

But they dont. Adult males in captivity sometimes rape the females, even their daughters, and they can even kill females, as last year in Ramat Gan Zoo in Tel Aviv.

The term is not relevant for the different species of elephants.

I will remove it once again, but dont intend to edit fight with you. If you cant see the logic in what I explain, I guess we must list the article as POV, since the term matriarchaty among elephants is in fact POV itself, it has been used by female authors, that closed their eyes fr 50% of the worlds living elephants. But wikipedia should reflect facts and not feministic POV.

with best wishes, Dan Koehl (talk) 15:59, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Dan, you are using the term differently than everyone else. Every single source on the subject says that female elephants form matriarchal herds while older males do not. If you wish to show that reliable sources counter this observation, please provide them. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 16:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thats a lie, Im not using the term differently than everyone else, and yes the fastest and easiest source to provide is wikipedia, see the article tells clearly that females and males live very diffenrently. But they both belong to Loxodonta africana. So choosing the term which has been correctly, or not correctly, used to describe the social structure of females within african elephants, as a general term for the whole species, is extremely wrong.

Im not sure how to describe this more clearly, but maybe like this:

Lets say we have a new species of rhinos, the space rhino, females are living on the Moon, and the males are living om Mars, and they meet halfway for mating.

In that case it would be wrong to say that space rhinos live on the moon, because 50% of them doesn not even put their foot there.

Is it easier to understand what I mean in this way?

Dan Koehl (talk) 17:04, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Dan, we've been through this already. There are literally dozens of sources on this subject, many of them recent. They all say the same thing. I appreciate your expertise as a trainer of captive elephants, but we need to go on reliable sources. User:Mezaco addressed your concerns here. Viriditas (talk) 17:59, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Regardless how many sources you refer to, elephants are NOT living in matriarchaty. I can show several sources stating Napolenon was a very short man, although he wasnt. Wikipedia was developed in order to supply correct information, not repeat misunderstandings, regardless how many sources that repeats them.

Dan Koehl (talk) 16:59, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


I've replied re Category:Health risks on my talk page.

Btw, purely by coincidence (cosmic?) I just came across the CFD, etc. for Category:Animal rights activists -- and I thoroughly agree that it ought to be used as intended. What a ridiculous situation. Cgingold (talk) 12:45, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the review comment

I just realized that I never thanked you for your comments on my editor review page. So Thank You!--Captain-tucker (talk) 13:02, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Van Gelder Studio

Greetings Viriditas - thanks for your edit to Coltrane's Blue Train (album). I have just posted a comment at the Talk:Van Gelder Studio regarding a possible cause for confusion over the two studios VG used. I'm going to remove your edit at the studio article (pasting it on talk page) pending further discussion. Your feedback would be welcome. Cheers! --Technopat (talk) 14:31, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Hey old friend

Hey Viriditas, its good to see you editing again. It looks like we both moved on to different subjects but I hope to see around nonetheless.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 07:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Happy new year! Viriditas (talk) 08:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
More like happy two new years, I think thats about whats gone by.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 03:30, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


To the firehose of verbiage. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:34, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


Thanks for the heads-up, when I first started 3-4 years ago we didn't yet have the strict referencing rules, so I made dozens if not hundreds of similar articles (the articles on even the 9/11 hijackers didn't have any references until "recently"ish). I always hate seeing them nominated for deletion for lacking sources, because I wish people would just do what you do, call my attention to them and I'll fix them. Thanks again. Sherurcij (speaker for the dead) 21:33, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


Hawaiian flag

Aloha, Viriditas! You have been invited to join WikiProject Hawaii, a collaborative effort which aims to create, expand, and maintain Hawaii-related articles. If you'd like to join, please sign up here. All kōkua is appreciated! Mahalo!

It was nothing, really. I've been learning to beg, borrow, and steal from other people when I was working on my Carpenters Wiki. I just did that with the other message you put into the discussion, and made some modifications. Feel free to make edits to it! The code is at {{Wikipedia:WikiProject Hawaii/Invite}}. Aloha! – Obento Musubi (CGS) 08:19, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
P.S. If you use Firefox (provided you're not using it now), you'll see rounded corners. It's a special HTML code I learned. I also did that to the boxes on the project page. – Obento Musubi (CGS) 08:23, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

James Pike

From WP:MOSIMAGE, "Start an article with a right-aligned lead image. This image is often resized to about 300px." Making it any smaller tha 250 leaves ugly amounts of white space around the image in the infobox. David Underdown (talk) 10:51, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I see the problem now. The image size is independent of the infobox. Which means the problem is in the width of {{infobox bishopbiog}}, and that is where the change needs to be made. Viriditas (talk) 15:41, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


E komo mai, Viriditas!
Welcome to the Hawaii WikiProject! We're a group of editors working to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Hawaii.

Here are some of our WikiProject's features:

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask another fellow member. All of us will be happy to help you. Aloha mai kākou! – Obento Musubi (CGS) 19:04, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

How's that? – Obento Musubi (CGS) 18:53, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Pretty good! Viriditas (talk) 00:06, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

What does "native Hawaiian" mean?

Hello Viriditas!

I was looking at this page and I thought of you. List of Native Hawaiians. You know alot about Hawaii, right? Could you take a look at it?

Take for Example the inclusion of Keanu Reeves. Yes, he's a "native Hawaiian", in the sense that I'm a "Native New Yorker". Eveyone understands "Native New Yorker" to mean "born and raised and from New York State". We don't usually call the Native Americans here "Native New Yorkers." We call them Mohawks or Senecas or whatever they happen to be, or just "Indians" or "Native Americans."

So if I'm a "Native New Yorker", then I suppose Reeves can be said to be a "Native Hawaiian". But the Keanu Reeves article says that he's half white and half Asian. So he's not what I'll call an "Ethnic Hawaiian".

This is just an example. Most of the people on the list are probably at least in some percentage "Ethnic Hawaiians", I suppose, but are others either just "ethnic" in the W.A.S.P.-ish American sence of the word, and from Hawaii? And then there is the question of people like Don Ho who are a complicated mish-mash of things, it turns out, not just Chinese, as I had thought, although he seems to be about 50% Chinese and a bunch of other stuff, including at least a little ethnic Hawaiian.

What I think happened was the list was started by someone who understood the term to mean one thing, and then contributors came along and in good faith tried to expand it, but didn't understand the term in the same way.

All it's supposed to be is one more in a group of list "articles" of ethnic Americans, including everything from Albanian Americans to Irish Americans to Bangladeshi Americans and Italian Americans and so on and so on.

So I noticed the problem and thought of you; that you might be interested.Chrisrus (talk) 03:44, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Ps. Been busy, but I still want to get back to the Koko project. Any news on the location in Maui?


ChrisrusChrisrus (talk) 03:44, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Aloha. It's good to see you again. Hmains created the list. Would you be interested in taking up the issue with him? I'll see if I can add it to the newsletter.. As for Koko, no I haven't heard anything, but I'll give it another look. Thanks for reminding me. Viriditas (talk) 13:12, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

The WikiProject Novels Newsletter - November 2008

This newsletter was automatically delivered by TinucherianBot (talk) 05:31, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Request for Interview for Class Assignment

Dear Viriditas:

I am currently taking a Computer Information Systems Class in my MBA program, and we are studying a range of Web 2.0 tools. Our latest assignment is to interview an active "Wikipedian," and I was wondering if you might be willing to help me with that request. I first noticed your username when I was viewing the history of the "John Coltrane" entry, as I am a big jazz fan. If you'd be willing, we could conduct the interview either here on wikipedia or via email. I just have a few brief questions and I imagine this wouldn't take more than 10-15 minutes of your time. If you are unable to assist, I certainly understand.

Thanks in advance for your time.


JB5980 (talk) 15:44, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

E-mail me the questions and I will consider it. Viriditas (talk) 21:42, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Rima Morrell

Dear Viriditas, Thanks for the Barnstar. As you note, I'm not around much. This article Rima Morrell has reappeared. It needs work and I don't know when I'll be able to get to it. Hope you're well. Makana Chai (talk) 17:51, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Let me know if you are ever on the valley isle and I'll buy you lunch. I'm trying to get over to Oahu, but I haven't had time. What would you like me to do with the Morrell article? It sounds like it was deleted in the past? Viriditas (talk) 21:48, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I just went ahead and did what seemed needed. Thanks. I'm actually going to be on Maui next week. Email me if you'd like to get together. That would be fun. Makana Chai (talk) 17:23, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm looking forward to it. I'll send you an e-mail later tonight to discuss details. Viriditas (talk) 23:06, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Space music take 2

Hi Viriditas. Thought you might like to be aware that another attempt is now underway to improve the content of this article. As someone who previously attempted to moderate Milomedes longterm WP:OWN issues there, your advice on the subject would be very welcome - particularly as he's become abusive and obstructionist with everyone involved in the current process, as per usual. --Gene_poole (talk) 06:18, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I've been watching the latest debate from the sidelines. It looks like you've got enough eyes on the page this time to prevent any problems. I think you give Milo a bit too much credit, so if I were you, ignoring him would be your best option. If something does come up, where you need me to comment, let me know. Listen, I've been wanting to tell you that I enjoyed UT 732; I wasn't aware of Thom Brennan's music, so thanks for the tip. I hope you are well. Viriditas (talk) 07:01, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
No problem. I suspect Milo will not be a problem for very much longer. Thom Brennan is one of my favourite artists - although to be honest his new album is a tad too "samey" for my tastes. "Signals in Moonlight", "Satori","Mist" and "Silver" are the albums I like best - gorgeous music. --Gene_poole (talk) 03:05, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Gene. I'll add them to my holiday wish list. Should I just purchase them on iTunes or would it be better to order them directly from Mr. Brennan? It's too bad about Milo. If he would just put aside his grudges, I'm sure we would all get along famously. Viriditas (talk) 03:25, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
I'd buy directly from Thom - I think he makes more money that way - but maybe you should email him and ask. Milo has made no effort to co-operate with anyone for 2 years. His time is up. --Gene_poole (talk) 07:11, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

User:Kamayav from Chocolate

I just had another look at [User_talk:Kamayav] and still feel sad that WP didn't have room for a 3rd world agricultural scientist. Admin wrongly accusing him of spamming, editor removing material and claiming POV without any source or even response to request for cites. Anyway I hope we do better next time. SmithBlue (talk) 15:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

You're right of course. Is there a solution to the problem? What do you recommend? Viriditas (talk) 04:16, 15 November 2008 (UTC)