User talk:WhatamIdoing

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If you expected a reply on another page and didn't get it, then please feel free to remind me. My watchlist is over 2,500 pages at the moment, and I'm not keeping up with every page. You can also use the magic summoning tool if you remember to link my userpage in the same edit in which you sign the message.

Please add notes to the end of this page. If you notice the page size getting out of control (>100,000 bytes), then please complain at me. I'll probably reply here unless you suggest another page for a reply. Thanks, WhatamIdoing (talk)


Your question to me[edit]

I am very interested in translating English articles into Haitian Creole (kreyol ayisien) but only articles that will help provide health information. I'm not into biographies, television plot lines, video games, towns, actresses from India, paraphilias, theoretical physics or sports. I am not completely fluent but with a haitian proof reader I can certainly translate a lot of medical content into Haitian. What is your connection? I'm reading your talk page and and cannot figure out why you would be the one to ask me to do this. I converse with a steward on occasion and would have expected him to ask me. Actually I'm flattered and would enjoy the challenge of improving my haitian language skills. Best Regards,

  Bfpage |leave a message  01:22, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
My original interest was work-related: About a year and a half ago, I tried to find an active editor there. It was frustrating. There are zero admins. The Village Pump is full of mass messages and almost nothing else—I don't think it's been archived since 2007. I believe that the only active editor is ht:User:Arsendis. It seriously needs someone to WP:REVIVE it.
I'd love to have you translating health-related articles (especially women's health and diseases that are of greater interest in Haiti vs wealthy countries). Are you familiar with the Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Translation task force? They create decent, well-sourced articles, simplify the language (at least for the introduction) to make translation easier, and then search for translators. I can't promise you a Haitian proofreader, but User:CFCF might be able to help us find someone—and if not, then a lot of us got our start by correcting typos, and perhaps one of the newbies (and there are some; look for the non-automatic ones in that log) would see your efforts and stick around.
If you want, I'm willing to beg User:Amire80 to move ht.wp up on his list for the new mw:Content translation tool, which is not only convenient but would handle all of the license-related attribution automatically for you. (Check it out at simple: if you want—you'll have to enable it in Beta Features there, but after that you can try it out for a userpage. It's still got some bugs and doesn't work in all browsers, but it's really popular at some smaller projects.
What do you think? Does it sound interesting? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:10, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
WhatamIdoing, thanks for the ping!
Bfpage thanks for your willingness to translate to Haitian. I am glad to tell that WhatamIdoing doesn't need to beg me, because the ContentTranslation tool was enabled in the Haitian Creole Wikipedia a few minutes ago and you can use it to translate articles easily from English, French, or any other language with which you're comfortable.
You can read a guide to using ContentTranslation.
If you have some time, it would also be nice if you could localize ContentTranslation's user interface. (If you don't have an account at that site, please create one at its main page.)
Thanks! --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 15:16, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
Also, let us know if you try to create that account and run into trouble. It's a bit complicated, and we can help. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:52, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
WhatamIdoing I've tried to use this tool and I am having a lot of difficulty. I went ahead and translated an article this morning from English to Kreyol just to see how difficult it would be without the tool and it is pretty tedious as I am unfamiliar with inserting the special characters used in Kreyol. I asked for help in the translate wiki IRC chat room and they won't let me create an account because I am not a software developer. How do I get the ability to translate in my 'home' english wikipedia? It seems like it should be easy but I'm just not getting it. Also, there are no administrators in the Haitian Wikipedia and I have asked the steward Mentifisto to make me one so at least I can block serious vandalism and spam. I would hate to put in hours of translation to then have it destroyed by vandalism.
  Bfpage |leave a message  19:14, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
You can't believe how happy I am to have a good Wikipedian over there. Let's see if I've got all the problems in order:
  1. Special characters: are these anything other than ´ and ` on top of vowels?
  2. Translatewiki.net is for the interface ("Edit" and "View history" and the like). Amir, can you talk to Siebrand and see what's needed here?
  3. Content translation here at en.wp: This might be possible in a few weeks, but I'm not sure that it would help with the special characters. Although, while I'm thinking about it, Amir, you probably don't want this to happen the week of 29 June, because that's when Anomie and his team are planning to break half the bots (well, to be fair, they're planning to fix something important that has been announced for months, but the effect is that a couple dozen bots are in need of urgent repairs).
  4. Admin request: I think this is a reasonable idea, although I don't know if they have a policy with any firm requirements.
Anything else? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:18, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
Special characters are, indeed, the ´ and ` on top of vowels. We don't currently have a special character inserter in ContentTranslation, but we may try to reuse the one from VisualEditor some day (I don't know when).
Bfpage, is it possible for you to use a Haitian or a French keyboard layout on your computer? --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 20:45, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
I will look for a quick way to enter the special characters. There really are only the two that you mentioned above. I can't waste my time creating a lot of content and then not be able to protect it from persistent vandalism-there has to be someone else in the ht wikipedia that can block vandals if not me. If I were to become an administrator, I would not want it to be permanent-just until someone else more qualified wants to be an administrator. I have already sent 'encouragment' messages to some of the more active editors there. I think I'm beginning to understand the translator tool and have already gone through their test(!) they put me through. I had to do some sample translations for them. I can certainly translate without the tool and already have. I'll go exploring in the ht wikipedia and see what the procedures are (if any) about administrators. Doc James seems to pretty happy about the whole idea. I'll just keep working without bots and translator tools until I hear otherwise. How do I stay up-to-date with the translation tool working in the en wikipedia or when will I know it is available? It would certainly speed up the process. Salitasyon, MadamPaj ak   Bfpage |leave a message  21:33, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
Bfpage, we've got some information at Help:Special characters. As with most help pages, it's likely to be out of date. What kind of browser/OS are you using?
I agree that ht.wp needs some sort of admin. I've got no problem with that person being you, but if someone else is willing to take on the grunt work and let you translate, then that's great, too. Or several people, since it's always a good idea to have a few around.
I've put a note on my calendar to check Content Translation's status at the end of the month and tell WPMED if it's appeared here by then. If WP:MED's on your watchlist, then you'll see that. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:23, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
I've got the character problem solved because visual editor on the ht wikipedia has those characters but I will be searching for a keyboard shortcut to make things go faster. Okay, everything is all set for me, anyway. I'll keep my eye on the WP:MED and wait patiently for the translation tool to go live on the English wikipedia. Mwen pral wè ou talè.
  Bfpage |leave a message  01:05, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
It sounds like you've got an acceptable workaround for now. The keyboard shortcuts are simple on a Mac: Option+e then a (or whatever vowel you want) makes á. Option+` (same key as the ~) then a makes à. But I'd have to look up how to do it on a Windows machine.
By the way, VisualEditor has an optional 'favorites' section at the top of the Special Characters tool, so that it can be customized for each Wikipedia. The default probably does what you need, but if you ever decide that you want something else up there, I can find someone to help with that. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:27, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Tech News: 2015-25[edit]

15:04, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

FAQ[edit]

Meeting you again reminded me of the MEDRS FAQ. :-) I'd been intending to ask - what would you think of moving the MEDRS FAQ to WP space to make it an "official" essay, like the NPOV FAQ? That might also help to attract input from more editors. If you're interested, I'd also still like to know your thoughts on including a belief/efficacy distinction. (FWIW, on reflection I'd also change my comment from "doesn't exist" to be more like "no evidence something is being manipulated," so that the statement doesn't end up taking a philosophical position.) Sunrise (talk) 06:57, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

How about we compromise and do both? Also, would you please have a go at both Wikipedia:Alternative medicine and Wikipedia:Biomedical information, which deal with some of these points. Some of what we're talking about might fit into those.
I've also got some hopes that we'll be able to create a "WP:MEDDUE" page (or section) some day, because I think that a lot of these allegedly "MEDRS" problems are actually questions of WP:DUE weight – only, instead of telling people that if nobody except the seller of whatever says X, then it's not worth mentioning, we're telling them that it's the wrong type of source. (We ought to be telling them both.)
I still have a tab open to get back to you about our discussion, which was about two weeks ago. (It's been a bit busy recently, as you can imagine.  ;-) WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:47, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
Sounds good! I’ll start making some edits (so, to specify: add belief/efficacy distinction, move FAQ, go through the essays). Let me know if I’ve misunderstood or if you want to discuss any change I make. There’s no rush - I keep a lot of tabs open myself. MEDDUE also sounds like an idea I would probably support. Sunrise (talk) 09:13, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Both of those pages should be assumed to be in the "first draft" stage. If you want, you can blow them up and start over. I've been looking at a couple of things (e.g., "what the treatment or drug is") and wondering how much I'm going to regret them, but I can't figure out how to separate the good from the bad. I can't even give you clear examples of what would be good and bad; I just have a sense of dispute-inducing foreboding around it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:44, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
By the way, you've made Aaron very happy with the questions you posted to Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Gradually enabling VisualEditor for new accounts. He's replied over at Meta, and I'm sure he would be happy to hear from you again. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:36, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! :-) I'll take a look. Sunrise (talk) 00:49, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Tech News: 2015-26[edit]

15:24, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Reference errors on 23 June[edit]

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Your message on my talk page re Afc[edit]

Hi, thanks for your message re my decline of Draft:Culinary tourism in India. I actually wasn't talking about the sources (although these would actually be relevant and I do make a judgement call very frequently when I review), but the way the article was constructed in a non neutral way. The lede, for instance: "Culinary tourism or food tourism is a fast growing sector in Indian tourism industry[1] and is attracting an ever increasing number of tourists from all over the world.[2] Due to sheer variety of cuisines and unique culinary experiences available in India, culinary tourism is getting attention from government[3] as well as private agencies[4] as a focus area.[5]" didn't really come over as neutral or encyclopaedic – bearing in mind also that I had checked the sources and they didn't support the text adequately. Even if the sources were watertight, you would have to clarify that this was a quote/description from a sound source, for instance, Baedeker has said that "due to the sheer variety", and so on. My decline was for advertising, which I would say is a fair summation of the text as it stands because it does read like a travel puff piece. I'm very happy to discuss this if you are making a point I haven't understood properly. Thanks for your note and best wishes. Libby norman (talk) 23:10, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Libby, I think you were right to decline the article. (Actually, it's a good candidate for transwiki-ing to Wikivoyage:. What you wrote was, "Please check out guidance on referencing as all material that might be challenged must have a solid reference from an unbiased source. Unbiased means a source not promoting culinary tourism in India." The problem is, if the user actually reads WP:V and WP:RS, then he's going to learn that "a solid reference from an unbiased source" is explicitly not required by our guidance on referencing. The article should be neutral in tone, but the sources can be just as biased as they want. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:21, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Hi, and thanks for your message. Well I think you make a fair point, but the decline reasoning was not, hopefully, confusing to the article's creator – we haven't heard that they didn't understand it. By unbiased, I meant neutral and reliable – there is contradicatory advice throughout Wiki, but the broad understanding I've encountered (and use myself) is no self-published sources and no excessively promotional sources. Indeed, I've seen or been involved in endless debates where sources have been challenged on the two points above. The key words here were: "material that might be challenged". So a source for 'it exists/is here' might not be, but 'it's the greatest tourist destination ever' might be. As ever, it depends on context and balance/breadth of references. I've used adverts in articles I've written – invariably historic and used as a source to define a date/point in time when something was done or made, so there are no hard and fast rules does come into play also. Context is everything. You are quite right – this would be a potential candidate for Wikivoyage. Libby norman (talk) 08:27, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
I know there have been many disputes over "non-neutral" sources. I even know that "non-neutral source" often means "source whose POV I disagree with". These disputes happen because WP:Nobody reads the directions, because if they actually read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Bias in sources or WP:BIASED, then they wouldn't go around repeating the rumor that "excessively promotional sources" are disallowed by any policy. (If you'll let years of cynicism show through, then I'll agree that we'll still have all of those disputes; the only real differences is that the disputants would be required to make up a better complaint.)
Ditto for self-published sources. Self-published sources are (sometimes) permitted for verifying information, including information that might be challenged. By the way, all corporate websites are self-published (because the corporation writes and publishes said website "itself", which makes it a "self"-published source), so if you look at either the actual rules or the actual practice, you'll see that there are some limits, but no prohibition, on WP:SPS sources. We actually want to use self-published, "promotional" sources in some cases, e.g., for verifying the specs on the latest computer by citing the self-published, entirely promotional sales materials published by its manufacturer. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:24, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Hi WhatamIdoing, I'm going to have to go back and check all of these so I can quote them if needed – and, yes, cynicism is allowed. I have been working on the basis of no self-published (ie, subject's website, associated with subject) sources. My experience submitting articles in the early days was that these were always picked up, so I'm intrigued to see self-published computer specs are "wanted" in some instances. I enjoy the idea of "source whose POV I disagree with", which is so true. I would even venture to suggest that "I don't think this article should be on Wikipedia so I'm going to stick flags all over it" creeps in occasionally. I do a lot of work on the Fashion Project and in the early days got the distinct impression that one or two editors thought this a total irrelevance and/or every article was just going to be puffery. Granted, a lot of the articles weren't a good standard (a lot still aren't), but the subject area is not worthy?
Sourcing is an issue that possibly enables a kind of systemic bias against pages on companies and organisations – so that many clearly exist and meet notability guidelines, but sourcing becomes a battle and their pages languish in a half-baked state and/or are littered with improve flags and banners. I've seen discussions where people have described the Daily Mail and LA Times as not valid sources – the first for being tabloid rag, the second for being local, even though both are newspapers that employ dozens of fact checkers/sub editors and in both instances references were clearly being used to support factual material in the company article. Of course, often company pages aren't helped by clumsy inhouse PR or paid contributor involvement that makes every future edit by anyone a focus of suspicion. This stalemate feeds into FA, GA and all the other gong stuff. It's far easier to get an article on a dead general, a lichen or a battle up to GA than anything found on high streets from Tokyo to London. There are 15 Brand pages on Wiki that have made it to FA, compared to 858 in Military History, which seems a bit unbalanced. Of course, the article rankings system seems to be applied in a variety of ways – I've ended up baffled although I have read the 1.0 classifications guidance many times. As a recent example, this article [20] was rated a start class and this one [21] a B class – the first one I created and I'm not in it for gongs, but does it count as incomplete with not enough reliable sources while the other one is a B? Libby norman (talk) 13:52, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Then we complicate matters even further, by accepting such sources for WP:V, but definitely not for WP:N. And then we dump our mishmash of policies all on the poor AFC reviewer (you!), wash our hands, and go complain about AFC having a backlog. I don't think we could make it any confusing or complicated if we tried. So: I'm glad that you're doing this work. Thanks. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:53, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

An hypothesis[edit]

WAID: I know you to be interested in invented WP rules. You may then like to look at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language where I am defending the right of those (not I) who want to use the construct "an hypothesis" rather than "a hypothesis". There are those who would insist on the latter in WP. Myrvin (talk) 13:04, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

I suspect that this is an WP:ENGVAR issue, but sadly I don't have time to look into it today, due to the VisualEditor re-enablement proposal. It does sound like exactly the kind of thing I like. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:56, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
The discussion there has been closed by an administrator. Wrong place; disruptive; obvious answer it seems. Myrvin (talk) 11:42, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Tech News: 2015-27[edit]

15:56, 29 June 2015 (UTC)