User talk:Yngvadottir

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Goodbye statement[edit]

I never thought my last article would be on a Greek painter.

I am obviously addicted to this project, and I care deeply about it, but I think it's best if I don't return to it.

I have been subjected to multiple assumptions of bad faith, not just the one unfounded accusation of lying and the accusation within it of contributing to driving off new editors, but also the upholding of an editor's demand that before undoing one of their contributions among many to the same article, I should obtain consensus, the accusation that I only belatedly "deigned" to join a talk page discussion that was opened anything but "immediately" (and where I and others had already discussed with the editor) and the dismissal of my reasoning as mere preference on grounds of ... mere preference. I have tried to hold to my nuanced view on infoboxes, but it has become clear that nothing satisfies editors who believe they should be universal other than bowing to their wishes.

Stewardship is not ownership. It is basic to the way we work that we evaluate the usefulness of changes to articles: we collaborate by correcting the spelling, grammar, word choice, formatting, and organization of what others have put into articles, and we remove things others have added for any number of reasons, not merely undoing vandalism and jokes such as name checks and shout-outs to friends, but removing unnecessary detail, repetitions, unencyclopedic trivia, unreferenced contentious material about BLPs, promotion and link cruft ... and sometimes replacing it with something that is either longer or shorter. All of these involve evaluation, and in none of these should the overriding issue be, "Am I undoing someone's work". It has to be "What do I judge best for the article (and the encyclopedia)", or we are merely a writing club. In many, many cases there will be disagreement: people have different styles, different preferences about the amount of linking that is desirable (let alone about red links), different views on how a lead section should be written and how much overlap there should be between it and the body, different views on how many references to use and where ... let alone national differences in English usage, which can extend to matters of style and organisation. People also differ in how they collaborate; engaged editors with a vision for the structure of the whole article sometimes thrash out a compromise version by making a series of alternating rewrites, with comments in the edit summary and sometimes also on talk pages. That can get heated, but in many cases a compromise is reached that works for the article and is in many respects better than if one editor had worked on it alone, because the other(s) have brought up and worked on issues that one alone had not seen, or found solutions that one alone would not have thought of. That is collaboration.

Yet it's defined as edit warring: policy was rewritten a few years ago to define any revert, partial or complete, as edit warring.

We have a guideline page, WP:EXPERTS, that while I assume it makes the important point that experts are one of Wikipedia's strengths, and that one of the reasons they are so is that they can be expected to have good references at their fingertips—I haven't looked at it in a while—spends considerable space on denigrating experts for being aware of the nuances of their field. A few years ago, an RfC rejected correct capitalization in the area of bird names; many editors got their edit counts inflated by moving a large number of articles and changing a large number of links, and several expert and productive editors left the project.

Earlier still, someone thought too many newly created articles were being marked for speedy deletion. Rather than the admin corps performing a study on whether speedy deletion tags were being acted on too hastily and unquestioningly, and whether certain admins needed to be reminded to be patient and inquisitive before deleting, or trying any other approach (such as relaxing the conditions for granting the autopatrolled flag, which have risen beyond the reach of slow and steady article creators), it was decided to lay a trap for the new page patrollers, which was done with a breaching experiment involving false identities and deliberate creation of test case articles. As a result most of the experienced new page patrollers walked out, either after being censured or in disgust. Unreviewed new pages piled up—and spilled off the back of the queue—and the perception of a vacuum drew in over-eager volunteers who created a shooting gallery environment that has driven off new editors who join us to create an article in an abstruse area, and is a constant source of worry about articles being tagged almost immediately after creation.

Our much-touted slogan is "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit". In principle that has to include experts, and people creating their first article. It also has to include unregistered editors. Most of us made our first edits before registering. Almost all of us occasionally get logged out without our realising it (for one thing, Mediawiki requires a separate log-in and when returning to Wikipedia, one finds oneself logged-out.) But a large proportion of editors believe IP editing should not be allowed, and an even larger proportion is biased against IP edits. This prejudice may be unavoidable, but it undermines our mission. In particular it is driving off new editors, as well as that unknown number who prefer for whatever reason to continue editing without registering. I tried as an administrator to help the site by reducing the problem of the "Best known for IP". It proved intractable not just because the editor eventually returned to edit warring, but because they were held to be unreformable because they are an unregistered editor who has had a long-term abuse page created about them, and thus no improvement in their behavior outweighed their having been abusive in the past. They have stated that they will probably be unable to resist making improvements in the future, and as the blocking admin has noted, this will be socking. They will be (mostly) good edits of which we seek to deprive ourselves on bureaucratic grounds and because of a prejudice against IP editors.

We have indeed become a massive bureaucracy. In addition to the redefinition of edit warring that lays open all give-and-take collaboration to punishment as edit warring, the methods of discussion are more and more byzantine. Both the Witiquette noticeboard and Requests for Comment have been closed down, leaving AN/I, a dreadful gauntlet where reporting editors are likely to be set upon and censured, or alternatively the complaint languishes unnoticed until it's archived, with or without first generating long discussions between the editors involved in the dispute and/or more or less hasty and sarcastic commentary from gadflies and more or less clueful admin wannabees. There's a regrettable amount of failure to read the complaint carefully, or the diffs. I used to read AN/I to learn about policy and practice. Now I see Social Darwinism. Meanwhile, WP:BRD is fine and dandy as a theory, but works very messily in practice: many go to each others' talk pages instead of the article talk page; many flat out refuse to discuss, or simply use "talk page!" as a club, as that editor did to me, and we're seeing the rise of flying pressure groups of editors who overwhelm article talk page discussions, on issues such as WP:ENGVAR, naming conventions, nationalist POV, WP:FRINGE ... and infoboxes. Increasingly the labyrinth channels people to ArbCom, which more and more functions as a law court, with use of impenetrable legal terminology, inscrutable rules (I never did figure out whether I was allowed to weigh in on, for example, the case of a fellow administrator whom I only know as a colleague, and if so, how) and decisions that are both hard to interpret (no, I should not need to say, I was not lying about the infobox ruling; that's what I believe it means; and I believe there is a case at AN/I right now about what's included under "gender, broadly construed") and hard to reconcile with the encyclopedic mission (the last few rulings against Eric Corbett).

In fact we have a serious problem with our whole model of consensus. First of all, the word means "agreement", not "winning an argument by more effective appeal to policy". We call it consensus because it makes us feel good and papers over the underlying bureaucracy. Secondly, we have at best uneven application of the principle, especially in the increasing number of non-admin closures (in effect, the rule that non-admins should not make a contentious close has been suspended for lack of admins and because voters at RfA have decided that candidates need to have already been doing admin stuff; see also, AN/I) but also by admins. At my RfA, I deliberately flubbed the consensus question; I had an AfD in my past that I had started, and where the article creator, a wikifriend of mine, had agreed with me that the subject was not notable; but the AfD was closed as "keep" on a blatant supervote by an admin applying a personal, non-policy criterion. Enforcement of the rules against canvassing is highly uneven (the infoboxes wikiproject is not going to be a neutral venue to advertise an infobox dispute, and one of the primary functions of many wikiprojects is to enforce their definitions of notability and MOS rules), and always will be: off-wiki canvassing of fellow editors and others is increasingly trivial and socially normal at this point in the development of the internet. In practice, because we are not prepared to take a hard look at what we mean by "consensus" and whether that's what we are actually doing, we have mob rule leavened by an increasingly deprecated expertise and sense of stewardship.

This bureaucratic drift away from the purpose and principles of the project hamstrings admins, too. The principle that admins don't make content decisions is fine and dandy, but as I said above, all editing is evaluative: we determine what is vandalism by evaluating it and inferring its intent. There is no clear border between content decisions - what's best for the article - and decisions about editor behavior - which rest in large part on evaluating what the editor has been doing in articles. In the discussion about the latest clamp-down against the "Best known for IP", after I had bowed to consensus, it also became apparent that the "involved" rule can be interpreted very strictly and would in effect prevent an admin from semi-protecting an article they have edited, or blocking an editor who has edited that article. This would rule out one of the two main reasons I (and I presume many other admins) have articles on our watchlists: because they have drawn vandalism or POV editing. It would mean the admin could only intervene with tools after seeing a noticeboard posting or getting a message, and that not if they were familiar with the article from editing it. That's a recipe for inept administration based on hasty, uninformed judgements that rest entirely on a guess as to the editor's intent, without context, and it encourages admins not to be stewards of articles. Having a Chinese wall between administrative actions and content decisions may seem good theoretically, but in practice it just makes admins cops and discourages them from being what they were in theory chosen for being: editors whose judgement is trusted.

In any event, I didn't so much run for adminship as get pushed. I didn't have any desire to be an admin: I stepped up after others decided it was a good idea. I have almost no ambition—very hard for ambitious people to understand, I know, and I keep forgetting that a lot of people are motivated by ambition—and I hate being a cop. I have worked hard to be worthy of the trust placed in me, and it changed my activities on the project a lot. Some of those who opposed at that time did so because it would curtail my writing for the project, and they were right, although there have been other factors, including the other way in which I use my watchlist: most of the articles I create or substantially change, I keep an eye on. That's what the list on my user page was originally for: I go by to see whether they need updating or whether I now see something I could have said better, and I also keep an eye on them for vandalism and other unfortunate changes. I regard it as my duty, having added them to the encyclopedia, but my watch list has become rather large.

As I say, after I became an admin I tried to be useful. I don't think it worked out very well. I made a number of mistakes, as I was afraid I would. And I kept rigidly away from determining consensus, which ruled out helping with many of the worst backlogs. I realized early on that a lot of adminship, done right, is deciding which tool to use: I have remained partial to discussing with editors in preference to blocking, protecting, or even making threats, and I've tried to explain at Talk:RfA that I don't see how the tools can be further separated. I have stayed away from AfC because I don't trust myself to decide whether a draft is ready; my instinct has always been to try to make it ready myself. But I registered on IRC and helped a few people that way, and responded to a few of the talk page requests for help that the bot reports there. I stayed away from the speedy deletion requests category for a similar reason, but I found I could add to my work at Pages needing translation into English by speedy deleting the inappropriate pages that got reported there. I saw and quietly deleted some awful things in languages I can read. I deleted some A2s, and conversely I talked to people who were wrongly nominating articles for speedy deletion that were simply created in a foreign language and didn't already exist on the other project. I always told the article creator what I had done and why. I tried to step up at the admin noticeboards, but it was just too horrible. I did do a couple of stints at user names for administrator attention, but it was soul destroying. So many people have no idea we forbid names of organizations/companies as user names; there is nothing telling them this when they create their accounts. And we have a real problem with promotional article creation; not only companies trying to use us for promotion, but people thinking we're LinkedIn. I've come to the conclusion that a lot of our problems with new editors and new articles, at this point, stem from an increasing number of people not knowing what an encyclopedia is. That plus all the stupid joke and name-check/shoutout edits mean we are drowning in good-faith or at worst idiotic edits that hurt the encyclopedia. Graffiti and illegal bill-posting are not always vandalism, in my view, but they deface what so many people have worked hard to build. However, I didn't feel good blocking these people, and I noticed that the official guidelines, to ask people to change their names first and to move them to holding pens if their edits are mixed or they haven't yet edited, are not followed: another admin would block someone after I'd left a message on their talk page. That made me feel even worse.

In the interests of community peace and not tugging on that fragile fabric of the acceptance of consensus that enables us to work together—making the wiki method continue to work despite the bureaucracy that works like hardening of the arteries, hampering discussion and making it harder to work out disputes—I've shut up and walked away in many cases. One was that AfD. Another was over the use of the "death dagger" in battle infoboxes, imposed by the military wikiproject. That symbol is inscrutable to the vast majority of English-speaking readers—I had to guess its meaning when I started meeting it in books written in other European languages—and it's fundamentally a Christian symbol, meaning "pray for his soul"—whatever it may be called, it's a cross (and I came across a reference to that effect, over a year later). As such it's a major violation of neutral point of view as well as an incumbrance for the average reader. (And neither commander in that battle was even Christian.) But I walked away. I've also walked away in at least one case when drive-by editors have dumped infoboxes in articles I created or saved. Those articles are off my watch list. I hope those who insisted they were right have adopted them onto theirs and watched for vandalism. But I have no doubt they failed to understand why I walked away: it was for the greater good of the project.

Actually, I will say now that I believe the kind of tin-eared unexamined bias that is behind the insistence on the "death dagger" is more harmful to the encyclopedia than many threats people focus on. More than vandalism, for example, given the number of vandalism hunters we have, both the eager beaver zappers and the many experienced and thoughtful editors who make that part of their work here—and a superb anti-vandalism bot. Our coverage is even more uneven than our crowdsourced, almost entirely volunteer mode of creation would suggest. It reflects a terrible recentism (I found that a moderately long article had been created on someone who published in the last few years fairy tales that had been in an archive, forgotten, since a 19th-century folklore collector's death; that person also co-founded a society to research and revive the collector's work; but no one had thought to write an article on the collector himself, or even to red link him), perhaps understandable bias against anything "unscientific" or definable as "fringe" such as alternative medicine, spiritualism, or neopaganism, but our policy actually says to cover such things providing there are sources and we make clear they are not universally accepted—and where do we expect the reader to look them up if we don't cover them because we don't like them, Britannica?—even within popular culture and sports, which we cover out of all proportion, there are yawning gaps: non-English-speaking TV series and films, athletes in less popular sports and from more than about 20 years ago, even, as I recently discovered, Barbie dolls. (There are also of course vast tracts of the encyclopedia that are just one-line stubs, maybe plus an infobox: look for example at all but the largest settlements in non-English-speaking countries, and at non-films from countries where English is not one of the official languages, in general).

And yet most of us assume all's right with the wiki. In fact there's a meme, promulgated by the WMF, that the encyclopedia is nearing completion; that most of the topics have been written up; that we should now focus on improving existing articles to Good Article or Featured Article status. This is massively wrongheaded. First of all, I find it hard to understand how anyone can have such a limited frame of reference as to think we don't have a vast number of articles left to write. Perhaps a contributing cause is that some editors mistakenly remove red links (I initially thought they indicated the article had been deleted). But for the most part it has to be lack of imagination—and unconscious bias. And promulgating this view discourages new editors. If the project is approaching completion and what is left are improvement tasks and the writing of harder articles, then there's less opening for newbies to make themselves useful; plus many potentially useful editors first approach us because they want to write a new article. Not all of these are promotional articles, things we already have by another name, or otherwise not worthy of inclusion in the encyclopedia. If we say most of the articles have been written, we're implying we assume they are. Some of them are things that we didn't know about yet. I also believe the focus on improvement is a mistake. It provides content for the Main Page, and some of the community do their best work with that kind of challenge. But it rests on assumptions about quality being objectively measurable that are another kind of entrenched bias. Ultimately, the GA and FA criteria are arbitrary, self-determined, and self-measured. There are GAs and even FAs that don't cover their subject completely, and there are GAs and FAs where reasonable people can disagree about both content and presentation. I'm positive that there are also articles with no bling that are at least at GA standard in someone's view. Focusing on GAs and FAs also undermines the wiki philosophy; these articles are explicitly held up as better than other volunteers' work. The bad effect of that is shown by the DYK project, now struggling to survive. That project had multiple aims: to provide interesting snippets for readers of the Main Page; to demonstrate to readers that we are continuing to build the encyclopedia, and possibly even encourage them to help fix up one of these articles, since they are new and more likely to still contain obvious problems (certainly more than the other Main Page items, which are all vetted for being close to perfect before being featured); and to encourage people creating and improving articles, including ... and this used to be important&nbsp... offering them workshop-style help in fixing up their articles after they were nominated, by themselves or others. I like multi-objective things like that, particularly in a volunteer context, but DYK stuck out by not requiring near-perfection, so those who volunteered there have been constantly assailed, and I myself left after it was diluted with GAs.

I see the decision to require references to reliable sources to demonstrate notability as the original cause of our decline in new editor numbers. In particular this impacted purely online areas of interest. (It speaks volumes that I was the first to get an article on Techno Viking to stick, and how hard I and a friend had to work to find the sources, since the lawsuit had not yet happened.) It also made us inhospitable to pagan topics and to most topics in the Developing World, no matter how often we affirm that we will trust references to books and newspapers not available online. We raised the bar and we made the project significantly more bureaucratic. That tagline "that anyone can edit" became a little less true. It may have been necessary, but we should be aware of that and see whether anything can be done to ameliorate its effects in terms of entrenched bias. Not assume that it's beyond discussion.

Part of entrenched bias of course is the underrepresentation of women and "women's topics" in the encyclopedia. Here, our insistence on reliable sources exacerbates the problem already presented by historical (and continuing) gender bias - there are online projects to document the lives and achievements of unsung women that in some cases don't pass our litmus test, and the sources for things like Barbie dolls, traditional knitting and quilting patterns, and so on are often unimpressive even when in print. I wrote up a toy manufacturer (founded by a woman and using local women for labor) that I had seen news articles on in the late 1970s, but what had been put online was patchy.

However, on the woman issue, the WMF's approach does more harm than good. their research on the percentage of female editors is fatally flawed, and they have used those bogus numbers to negate the existence of those of us who are female editors, to condescend, and to divide the community. Seeing pop-up ads inviting people to apply for grants to fix the problem that I don't exist alienates me. Being told in a blog post by the past head of the WMF that half a dozen of her friends know better than me about what turns off women from editing Wikipedia—about the fact the lady assumes I don't exist—alienates me. (Most of these turn-offs don't matter to me at all, by the way.) The constant advertising of editathons on women's issues, for women, is divisive. The demonizing of editors who dare to question the statistics while being male-identified is divisive and counterproductive ... as well as condescending. I left the Gender Gap Task Force alone because hey, each to her own, but it does not speak for me and the WMF's promotion of this political effort and lionization of those women who spend their time yacking there instead of actually writing the encyclopedia chaps my butt.

Moreover, underlying the WMF's promotion of panic about an undemonstrated gender gap and divisive tactics to remedy it is a push by the WMF to encourage editors to reveal their real names. They use the carrot of funding and of course that of the supposed fun of face-to-face events, particularly the big convention whose name escapes me (I don't do cons) to get people to reveal who they are, they make it mandatory for certain positions, and they more or less quietly encourage us to give up our internet identities and use our actual names. This is potentially dangerous—at least one editor has recently been threatened with harm for their editing—there is a long trail of women's, gays, and trans* people's lives ruined and ended because their identities became known on the internet; and I would have thought that since GamerGate started, anybody active on-line would realize women have to consider the danger before revealing their identities. This project was founded on anonymity, anonymity is part of its strength, it is a volunteer project, and for women especially, probing identity is a privacy violation. The WMF is not just being controlling here, it's expressing contempt for the volunteers it says it wants.

I also have it on good authority that the WMF wants to get rid of "old timers" and replace them with new editors. That's certainly the impression I get from the constant mucking about with the editing interface, which requires us all to unlearn everything and try to adapt to whatever brokenness they shove at us. And a comflict between old-timer and newbie is implicit in the metaphor of the "wikidragon" who makes big bold edits and from whom the "wikiknight" rescues the innocent victim. But it may not be quite that calculated on the WMF's part: the demolition of the Toolserver and its replacement by labs, which requires different programming skills and malfunctions more than half the time, suggests the more important motivation is the insatiable need to control. Of course, the answer to both the oldtimers vs. newbies and the techies vs. non-techies split is that the project needs us all. It's insane both to drive away new volunteers and to drive away experienced editors who are needed to show them how to do things, in addition to whatever else they may choose to do, and asserting that volunteership has a "natural cycle" whereby people will inevitably choose to retire is, again, condescending—it's entirely up to volunteers what they choose to do. Speaking of newbies, we are indeed turning them off in many ways. For one thing, we (or the WMF) assume they are all young and tech-savvy, whereas it's the nature of the project that we attract a lot of retired people and academics; newbies have told me they find templates and the citation help video more baffling than helpful—much like me. For another, see above about first articles. Furthermore, the Teahouse has in my view been a disaster, well intentioned though it was. The Teahouse seeks to avoid linking to policy pages, which leaves the new editor ignorant of where to look up the rules and guidelines, and especially defenseless if they get a templated warning. At its inception it turned away experienced editors, including me, so it's continued to be an isolated culture, and initially we were told not to welcome people to it, because that would be done by the Teahouse hosts; the result of that was that editors stopped putting welcome templates on newbies' talk pages, and the Teahouse has since gone over to a welcome bot—which initially they wanted to avoid—so I have repeatedly found a user talk page has several templated warnings, but no welcome of any kind, or a "We have a Teahouse for new editors!" placed by the bot after a string of warnings and maybe a confused response by the new editor. How is anyone to be expected to understand the rules and guidelines of this project if they are never told where they reside on the site? How is it either welcoming or useful to give a new editor templated warnings and no welcome, no matter how wonderful the metaphorical teahouse may be? What we had worked better: a significant number of editors welcomed newbies as part of their normal editing, and they and others followed up with help if it was asked for, we had and had a variety of welcome templates to suit different tastes and needs, and we had a special help desk for new editors (I asked a couple of questions there and got patient help, possibly from the same people who now patiently staff the Teahouse). It dovetailed with our warning templates, it gave a person a chance to read the manual, so to speak, or to get personal assistance if they preferred, and it didn't come off as condescending.

In terms of being welcoming, I think we've effectively gone backwards. And I don't think it's because we maintain stewardship over the encyclopedia—except in the areas of over-zealous vandal fighting and speedy deletion of new articles. Fundamentally, I think the WMF has lost sight of the aims of the project, and that they have so divided the community that many of us are working at purposes that don't suit it well.

So. Rather than writing essays or otherwise becoming active in wiki-politics, I wrote and improved articles and tried to help people. All the more so because I'd been entrusted with adminship. But it's reached a point where I'm being accused of harming the project, as well as of being dishonorable, and I was already questioning whether I should continue to volunteer here after what happened to the "best known for IP". As you see, I perceive dangerous problems with the project. If I stay, I would have to fight for it. But Wikipedia is not supposed to be a battleground, and it's apparent that my views are not shared by most. So instead, I'm leaving. I'd like to say I'll come back, but I doubt I would be welcomed given what I have finally said here. And I had already been facing the likelihood of leaving when WP:FLOW is instituted—incidentally, one of the few indications that there are few of us women editors is that there has not been a big reaction to that name, which to me as a woman (maybe of my time and place), says "The WMF wants to put us all on the rag" in big neon letters. That will fatally impair our ability to talk to each other. So ... I'm leaving earlier than I expected and it won't be "us" any longer when that happens. Goodbye. I loved this project. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:11, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Miss you already[edit]

Pamje nga Desivojca.jpg
  • song without words, loved your help --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:28, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
ps: I mentioned you here, in Hope, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:50, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Me too--but more importantly the help you gave all the others, the ones who really needed it. Drmies (talk) 23:34, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Miss you -- now who will be the beacon? As for your remarks on Flow, I'm glad to learn that at least one other editor was off-put by its name for the very same reason (every time I hear it mentioned -- including at Sunday's edit-a-thon in SF -- I wince). --Rosiestep (talk) 04:07, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Noooo, I can't believe you've gone!! Come back Yngie!! Took me about an hour to read it :-) but I agree with most of what you said. The WMF is flawed, and it doesn't do enough to promote growth of the encyclopedia and attract the editors we really need. The admin system needs to be overhauled and people given different tools on an individual basis who actually deserve them. I also think that this bureaucratic system really doesn't work for what is essentially a charity project. The WMF really need to starting seriously thinking about changing the set up and taking more responsibility and we've undoubtedly lost thousands of editors, especially newbies, because of it. It is people like us Yngie that the WMF need to employ to set us in the right direction, and who are knowledgeable about content and building this. I will miss you greatly, I hope given time you will see beyond the site's shortcomings and see the wider picture again, what brought you to the project in the first place.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:56, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm very sorry to see this. Even if you decide not to return, you've left the place immeasurably better off. But like everyone else above and below, I hope you eventually decide to come back. --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:36, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Miss you more[edit]

Cherry blossom Frauenstein.JPG

This image served first to miss editors who died (a year ago), then also those who left, like you. Today I think also of a subject, Maria Radner, subject of an article that should have had your copy-editing. Sad. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:19, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

DYK ... that a 1510 spiral of justice (pictured) declares: "Justice suffered in great need. Truth is slain dead. Faith has lost the battle"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:52, 23 April 2015 (UTC)


Eurasierwelpe 3.jpg Puppy
Puppy Hafspajen (talk) 22:14, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Hafspajen your choice of images at times is just so lovely and heart warming, especially knowing Yngie's love of them!♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:20, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

  • More happy love! More happy, happy love! Drmies (talk) 13:28, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Landscape - solitude

Please reconsider and come back[edit]

Yngvadottir, I just saw your farewell message, and I was sorry to see it. I hope you will just take a short wiki-break and return to editing. Your contributions have been invaluable and, if you come back, will continue to be. You will get past this rough patch. There are so many editors and articles on WP that you will find articles you enjoy editing and editors with whom you enjoy working. I, for one, will miss you if you don't come back. Best regards, CorinneSD (talk) 22:20, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Reconsider. GoodDay (talk) 23:55, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Hey wait just a minute. Buster alerted me to this editor's talk page, I read her farewell note, and she is spot on. If we continue to lose this sort of editor we continue to lose the very life blood of Wikipedia, as the site becomes more robotic every day. Reading her words I wanted to give her a hug and kiss her, what did she call it? chapped?, ass. There is unrest about about what some of us see as a growing problem of giving our time and effort to a project that no longer represents our expectations, but what can we do? We need really smart people like this--just now I learned that the Tea House, which I thought was just wonderful and the answer to all of our prayers--may not be all that I thought it was. What can we do? Gandydancer (talk) 01:10, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi. I don't think we've met, although maybe I'm wrong in that. I read your statement above, and, although I think we may have a few disagreements on some issues, and, possibly, that I might have access to some perhaps slightly privileged relevant information on one issue which you might not have, I have to say that over the years I think I have probably agreed with you on pretty much every point you raised at least half the time. If by chance you want to contact me regarding some things I in all honesty can't disclose here, my e-mail is enabled, so drop me a mail and I can tell you.

I agree with pretty much everyone else who has posted here about the fact that the total loss of your input would be an extremely regrettable loss. Particularly noticeable, at least to me, is the loss of a good and competent translator. I know I've looked for English language sources on a lot of topics and found damn near nothing on several of them.

Actually, that gives me a bit of an idea. I know some of the other WMF entities, including wikisource, where I am somewhat active, permit original translations of non-English language published sources. I'm not sure how seriously to take the userbox with the Mjolnir image on your userpage, but I at least seem to remember that a huge number of old Norse stories are still not readily available in English. Having access to them would be invaluable to a lot of us. I am occasionally doing some work over there myself. If you would have any interest in increasing the availability of some material from such sources to some of us linguistically-challenged editors, like me, drop me a note and I can see what I can do to help.

In any event, given the amount of time you have been an editor, I hope and pray that this current retirement winds up being seen in the future as just an extremely well-earned break. If you do however choose to remain retired, I wish you the best of fortune in your other endeavors, and thank you for all you have done here. John Carter (talk) 15:53, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Editors Barnstar Hires.png The Editor's Barnstar
I've watched you work silently and diligently for years. I hope you don't go. You will be missed. There will be a whole hole in the water in the bucket when you are gone. 7&6=thirteen () 22:39, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Good Heart Barnstar[edit]

GoodHeartBarnstar.png The Have a Good Heart Barnstar
You have a good heart. Wikipedia was always a better place when you were on duty! Please consider returning at some point. . Buster Seven Talk 00:47, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Of course you would be welcomed would be surprised at how many editors share you views. Having been involved with WikiProject WER from the beginning I have been collecting soliloquies for a few years: much truth and solutions are shared as editors walk out the door. Yours is the most thoughtful and heartfelt one I have ever read. Not too much "Woe is me"...more maternal and caring about the place you love and are forced to leave. Forced in order to keep peace with yourself, to not feel hounded and put upon, to maintain your sense of self worth. If you are anything like me, what happens and what is said on WP rattles around in my brain throughout the day. I stay away from contentious articles and situations because they take over my thoughts and cause imbalance and stress in my RL...and that's not good! Any artist will tell you, "We give our critics too much of our time and our mind. We should just nod at them and move on. We don't need to be loved by everyone. LOVE. You are loved. Too often, We turn away from the LOVE that surrounds us and pay attention only to the UN-Love and it gains power over us and we abandon the thing we love...and that loves us back. . Buster Seven Talk 12:32, 12 March 2015 (UTC)


I never thought there were corners in time, 'Til I was made to stand in one. One straight line head on into the other. Maybe standing in a corner looks like where it's got to come.
Xanthomelanoussprog and Hafspajen (talk) 11:11, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

WikiDefender Barnstar Hires.png The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
We just met and I'm not willing to say good bye to you just yet! Please hang in a little longer? Gandydancer (talk) 01:13, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Take a breather -- but come back![edit]

Hey Yngvadottir, I think most all editors who genuinely care about Wikipedia get fed up with it at some point and more or less throw in the towel after being confronted with an overwhelming number of injustices or unfairnesses. Wikipedia is unfair, or can be unfair -- but then again, life is unfair. What brings us back to Wikipedia is knowing the good that we can do, in our own little corner, amid the rest of the zoo that is Wikipedia.

I'm sure being an admin is also frustrating -- I don't know, but I imagine it is, and adds to the perception of Wikipedia's problems. However again, I think it important to focus on the good that is accomplished, and on the friends and community one can establish here, and the goodwill of positive editors -- rather than the problematic edits/editors/decisions/policies that can sometimes win the day.

I hope you will take a breather and take care of yourself and nurture yourself. And then, as all of your friends have expressed on this page (and others unaware of the situation similarly feel), I hope you come back. Please be well, and best wishes, Softlavender (talk) 03:32, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

The Mandarax Barnstar of Excellence[edit]

Mandarax Barnstar of Excellence.gif The Mandarax Barnstar of Excellence
Yngvadottir, I have awarded this MBE to you in recognition of your exemplary service to Wikipedia. You are truly one of the people I most admire and respect around here. Your contributions have done so much to improve the encyclopedia! Your long list of article creations and improvements is impressive. You always seem willing to help out, and do so skillfully and without judgment. Your talk page comments are always intelligent and logical. This is an award which I've been meaning to present you with for a long time, and I apologize for my slothfulness in not getting it to you sooner. MANdARAX  XAЯAbИAM 06:57, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

A sad day[edit]

It's a sad day that when any good editor goes, but I'm especially sorry you were hounded out by an increasingly militant, co-ordinated and disruptive faction who are prepared to sink to any depth to force their view onto articles, regardless off the outcome. Sadly I see little remedy in that direction, and I think the matter, and the disruption they cause, will worsen, with an increasing number of people walking away.

I do hope that your break will not be permanent, and that you will return to us, refreshed, after avoiding the toxic clouds for a while! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:31, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Some petunias for you![edit]

Pink petunias.jpg Some petunias for you!
Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of these petunias when they saw your retirement notice was "Oh no, not again." All my favourite WP editors are leaving :-( You have flown the flag admirably for good content and putting the reader's interests first. Please just have a break and come back. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:56, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Some of the articles Yng has translated from various wikis over the years when asked have been staggering, amazing what she has done overall I think. Very sad.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:22, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Very sorry to see you go - I hope you feel able to return one day! All the best, Johnbod (talk) 02:54, 13 March 2015 (UTC)


Spring sunshine

Schade, schade, äußerst schade, that one of English Wiki's ablest, most knowledgeable and energetic admins – with amazing language skills – has become so embittered by negative factors as to decamp. I hope that, like our friend Hafspajen, you'll find that a Wikibreak refreshes you sufficiently to return.

Vielleicht scheint Morgen die Sonne wieder. ( – Werner Stelly) Sca (talk) 15:33, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Maidle, schad isch wenn so jemer wie Du net blaibe ko! Dein Brief kann i aus vollem herzen zustemma, des fasst älles zsamme, was mi an dem Projekt au nervt. Its completely crazy to assume that WP is complete. We will miss you, but the projects goes mit dem hinterteil voran - backwards and leaves us out. Serten II (talk) 14:35, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
And maybe a bit of this...

Irish Whiskeys[edit]

GoodIrishWhiskeys.jpg Some Good Irish Whiskeys for the mourners
File:Some Good Irish Whiskeys for the mourners Hafspajen (talk) 19:25, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

The Volunteer Appreciation Award[edit]

Howard University edit-a-thon D.JPG The Volunteer Appreciation Award
Thank you for taking the time to write such extensive and thoughtful comments. We don't do nearly enough here to recognize and appreciate the volunteers who have written this encyclopedia! Djembayz (talk) 09:37, 15 March 2015 (UTC)


Siviglia de Fureur Bleu.JPG Kitten
Meow... Rosiestep (talk) 17:00, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Chinese calligraphers[edit]

The Chinese calligraphers used to change their names mid career so they could start over as someone else.

They would change their signature, their identity, so they could remain free to evolve artistically...

Unconfined by the public's expectation for them to continue with a certain style or subject matter they had previously been known for
— David Mack, Kabuki - The Alchemy

The encyclopedia is nowhere near complete; there are many millions more of everything to create and curate. I hope you'll regularly consider the phoenix, and return to this sometimes-all-too-human but oh-so-wonder-filled, eternally-needed project, eventually or soon, in one of your many previous roles or another, in this guise or another. Perhaps trim or purge your watchlist; start afresh however works best. Best wishes, Quiddity (talk) 01:04, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Administrator Barnstar Hires.png The Admin's Barnstar
Your disdain for viewing Wikipedia is good/bad, black/white terms is exactly the perspective needed for being a good admin. I understand your frustration and you make many insightful points in your farewell that I fully agree with. That only indicates to me how much WP needs admins like you. I hope you will take a generous WikiBreak and come back, if not as an admin, then as an editor. Peace. Liz Read! Talk! 15:46, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I like your presence[edit]

and I enjoy pagewatching, reading your cool insights, and just you being around. Please, please do not do a 74 on me. Do return, you are not alone, either in your frustrations and pleasures of this odd place. Do come back Y. Kind regards. Simon, or Irondome (talk) 19:56, 29 March 2015 (UTC) (depending on my mood)

  • SO TOTALLY AGREE. -do not do a 74 -Hafspajen (talk) 11:15, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Happy Easter[edit]

Four Easter cupcakes with chocolate eggs, March 2008.jpg Happy Easter
Happy Easter.... Hafspajen (talk) 19:03, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

 ;) Serten II (talk) 09:46, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Pictures on Wkimedia Commons[edit]

Hello Yngvadottir,

We again did not talk for a long time, I hope everything is OK with you; I am immersed in preparing for my classes, it seems to never end! Of course I again need your advice and help. I probably mentioned before that by now the bio of Blatt is available on the Romanian Wikipedia. However, it still has no pictures. I am being advised, that instead inserting the pictures that have been already accepted by myself as I did in the past, I should wait until they are transferred into Wikipedia Commons (if that is indeed correct) and after that I should insert them into the Romanian text, in order to avoid confusions. However, that seems to never happen. Out of all the pictures, ironically, it seems that only the picture of Marta Blatt is now on Wikimedia Commons.. My question is: is it any manner to expedite the transfer of licensed accepted pictures into Wikimedia Commons? or should I just insert them myself as I did in the past on the English Wikipedia? I am sending the questions to PC-XT because sometimes in the past you worked simultaneously on my issues . Looking forward to hearing from you, and thank you very much. (Erica Blatt Harkins (talk) 01:20, 9 April 2015 (UTC))

I shocked and I can't believe it![edit]

I hope you can read this. Yes indeed I am shocked and can't believe it. Your message is so real and poignant! I understand every single of your reasons and it rings a bell regarding life, about the reality of life and people. I am already cynical and this adds to it! But this is not about me, it is about you. Yngvadottir, your presence and contributions have been and continue to be unique and wonderful!. Your dedication and the way in which you are throwing yourself into helping people is rare. I feel that Wikipedia loses a fantastic volunteer and asset. I will be always grateful for the way you helped me and carried me through the entire process, for your patience, knowledge and kindness. Iearned a great deal from you and you made it also possible for me to act independently. Now, I don't know if I should say "come back"?! Yes, I would greatly appreciate if you still would be part of Wikipedia, I would appreciate your enthusiasm in helping people, your continuous support and participation. But in all fairness do i have the right to ask you to return and submit yourself to the same treatments that made you leave? Yngvadottir, everybody who had the opportunity to work with you, I am sure admired you appreciated your work and loved you. If you are still up to it please return-----Very sincerely, (Erica Blatt Harkins (talk) 02:27, 9 April 2015 (UTC))

What the hey?![edit]

It took me this long to discover that you've left us, which speaks volumes about my misguided focus in this place, I guess. Can't add much to the eloquence displayed by others on this occasion, but please do reconsider. The way things are going, it'll just be Jimbo, me and the usual socks of banned pests left to haunt the place. Favonian (talk) 20:47, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

A brownie for you![edit]

Brownie transparent.png You are especially helpful, knowledgeable, and understanding. Many would welcome your return, but in the meantime, have a treat. Best wishes and respect —PC-XT+ 09:17, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

WikiCup 2015 May newsletter[edit]

C/2014 Q2 (Lovejoy) is a long-period comet discovered on 17 August 2014 by Terry Lovejoy; and is one of several Featured Pictures worked up by India The Herald (submissions) during the second round.

The second round one has all wrapped up, and round three has now begun! Congratulations to the 34 contestants who have made it through, but well done and thank you to all contestants who took part in our second round. Leading the way overall was Belarus Cas Liber (submissions) in Group B with a total of 777 points for a variety of contributions including Good Articles on Corona Borealis and Microscopium - both of which received the maximum bonus.

Special credit must be given to a number of high importance articles improved during the second round.

The points varied across groups, with the lowest score required to gain automatic qualification was 68 in Group A - meanwhile the second place score in Group H was 404, which would have been high enough to win all but one of the other Groups! As well as the top two of each group automatically going through to the third round, a minimum score of 55 was required for a wildcard competitor to go through. We had a three-way tie at 55 points and all three have qualified for the next round, in the spirit of fairness. The third round ends on June 28, with the top two in each group progressing automatically while the remaining 16 highest scorers across all four groups go through as wildcards. Good luck to all competitors for the third round! Figureskatingfan (talk · contribs · email), Miyagawa (talk · contribs · email) and Sturmvogel 66 (talk · contribs · email) 16:51, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

A cup of coffee for you![edit]

Cup-o-coffee-simple.svg Thanks. I am collecting more information on Kashi Samaddar and hope to edit within 48 hrs. Regards Editwikigu (talk) 04:03, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Welcome back[edit]

Hey, you're back! Yay! Well I'm now an admin as well and I completely agree with your positions on blocking, and that we should attempt to guide people in the right direction first, rather than smack them with a banhammer. So far, I've not blocked anybody (though I came close by turning the talk page off for an obvious vandalism only account on unblock request #4) and I hope that long term the number of unblocks vastly outnumbers the number of blocks. I'm not intending to block the Best known for IP as I'm WP:INVOLVED, though I really hope there was some resolution to that, as things seems to be getting worse. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:10, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, things are worse and worse. Inexplicably I just keep on working to improve the encyclopaedia, despite the strenuous efforts of the likes of Ritchie333 to put a stop to that kind of thing. What is a hater of quality to do? Anyway it's great to see you back, Yngvadottir, I hope it's not a brief return and that you'll continue to benefit Wikipedia with your thoughtfulness. (talk) 17:31, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
Sweet Jesus IP you sound like a broken record. If you have a life partner, do they have to listen to this all the damn time? Yeah your edits are good but holy moly you wear me out. And put a $20 in the sarcasm jar on your way out please. Yngvadottir, my dear, I am SO tired of everyone on both sides of the dispute. Good thing I'm officially on vacation. Ha, Y, the sun is out! Let's go get some vitamin D--we'll meet at the kids' little playground by the school. Drmies (talk) 07:21, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
I've got bad news - kids these days don't understand what being like a broken record is. They aren't even familiar with stuck CDs. Enjoy the holidays Drmies, over this side of the pond it's pissing it down. Cast na'er a clout 'til May is out, as the saying goes. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:40, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
You know how much I'd like to never mention all this ridiculous shit ever again? If people would only stop reverting edits for no reason, falsely accusing me of vandalism, and maintaining their idiotic attack pages. If it's tiresome for me to complain about people doing these things, you'd better hope they stop doing them because I'm not going to stop complaining I'm afraid. (talk) 20:39, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Per Holknekt[edit]

Please take a look at the article Per Holknekt that I recently created. I am planning to nominate it for DYK in the next few days so any help or improvements are welcomed. Thanks.--BabbaQ (talk) 19:31, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Barbera Caffé[edit]

Since you complained about my actions on this article last time round, here's notice I've nominated it G4 (AfD discussion) and reported the author as a puppet. Aren't spammers great, you get the chance to revisit your previous choices time and time again? Hopefully this time you'll be happier. Regards, Bazj (talk) 08:48, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

If you missed that one, there's another copy at Barbera Coffee, G4/G5/G11/A7. Bazj (talk) 14:24, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Need another support[edit]

Hi Yngvadottir,

I have added photographs to Ear and Toothbrush but unfortunately the edit was reverted by another user but would you please have a look at both the articles and the photographs, if any chance, please help me to keep the photographs. Both the photos are very good and high quality and I feel suitable for the articles, please have a look. Blacknclick (talk) 07:35, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Library needs you![edit]

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Send on behalf of The Wikipedia Library using MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 04:31, 7 July 2015 (UTC)


I started a article about Clark Olofsson today. Take a look :)--BabbaQ (talk) 14:20, 10 July 2015 (UTC)


I thought I should let you know about Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tropic sun which I created based on a conversation you had some time ago with Seicer. Risker (talk) 05:17, 14 July 2015 (UTC)


I did not know about the thread. Not a website I monitor. It's very amusing, though, particularly if I were to play Wagner in the background. Thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:33, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Goodbye. Hello. Goodbye. Hello.[edit]

Forgive the mutilation of the Vonnegut reference but I've just read your 5-month old departure statement and note that you're back doing a little editing. What can I do but give you a barnstar for that essay? Nice!

Original Barnstar.png The Original Barnstar
Nobody has said it better: "...On the woman issue, the WMF's approach does more harm than good. their research on the percentage of female editors is fatally flawed, and they have used those bogus numbers to negate the existence of those of us who are female editors, to condescend, and to divide the community. Seeing pop-up ads inviting people to apply for grants to fix the problem that I don't exist alienates me. Being told in a blog post by the past head of the WMF that half a dozen of her friends know better than me about what turns off women from editing Wikipedia—about the fact the lady assumes I don't exist—alienates me. (Most of these turn-offs don't matter to me at all, by the way.) The constant advertising of editathons on women's issues, for women, is divisive. The demonizing of editors who dare to question the statistics while being male-identified is divisive and counterproductive ... as well as condescending. I left the Gender Gap Task Force alone because hey, each to her own, but it does not speak for me and the WMF's promotion of this political effort and lionization of those women who spend their time yacking there instead of actually writing the encyclopedia chaps my butt." Carrite (talk) 03:32, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I also think that was nicely put. And it's good (for us) to see you at work again here--hope you're getting some work done in real life as well. Drmies (talk) 04:54, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

A queen[edit]

Ainefairyqueen.jpg A Fairy queen
Aine fairy queen ... when are you settling back? Hafspajen (talk) 22:26, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

WikiCup 2015 September newsletter[edit]

The finals for the 2015 Wikicup has now begun! Congrats to the 8 contestants who have survived to the finals, and well done and thanks to everyone who took part in rounds 3 and 4.

In round 3, we had a three-way tie for qualification among the wildcard contestants, so we had 34 competitors. The leader was by far Scotland Casliber (submissions) in Group B, who earned 1496 points. Although 913 of these points were bonus points, he submitted 15 articles in the DYK category. Second place overall was Philadelphia Coemgenus (submissions) at 864 points, who although submitted just 2 FAs for 400 points, earned double that amount for those articles in bonus points. Everyone who moved forward to Round 4 earned at least 100 points.

The scores required to move onto the semifinals were impressive; the lowest scorer to move onto the finals was 407, making this year's Wikicup as competitive as it's always been. Our finalists, ordered by round 4 score, are:

  1. Belarus Cas Liber (submissions), who is competing in his sixth consecutive Wikicup final, again finished the round in first place, with an impressive 1666 points in Pool B. Casliber writes about the natural sciences, including ornithology, botany and astronomy. A large bulk of his points this round were bonus points.
  2. Smithsonian Institution Godot13 (submissions) (FP bonus points), second place both in Pool B and overall, earned the bulk of his points with FPs, mostly depicting currency.
  3. Wales Cwmhiraeth (submissions), first in Pool A, came in third. His specialty is natural science articles; in Round 4, he mostly submitted articles about insects and botany. Five out of the six of the GAs he submitted were level-4 vital articles.
  4. Somerset Harrias (submissions), second in Pool A, took fourth overall. He tends to focus on articles about cricket and military history, specifically the 1640s First English Civil War.
  5. Washington, D.C. West Virginian (submissions), from Pool A, was our highest-scoring wildcard. West Virginia tends to focus on articles about the history of (what for it!) the U.S. state of West Virginia.
  6. Somerset Rodw (submissions), from Pool A, likes to work on articles about British geography and places. Most of his points this round were earned from two impressive accomplishments: a GT about Scheduled monuments in Somerset and a FT about English Heritage properties in Somerset.
  7. United States Rationalobserver (submissions), from Pool B, came in seventh overall. RO earned the majority of her points from GARs and PRs, many of which were earned in the final hours of the round.
  8. England Calvin999 (submissions), also from Pool B, who was competing with RO for the final two spots in the final hours, takes the race for most GARs and PRs—48.

The intense competition between RO and Calvin999 will continue into the finals. They're both eligible for the Newcomers Trophy, given for the first time in the Wikicup; whoever makes the most points will win it.

Good luck to the finalists; the judges are sure that the competition will be fierce!

Figureskatingfan (talk · contribs), Miyagawa (talk · contribs) and Sturmvogel 66 (talk · contribs) 11:47, 2 September 2015 (UTC)


If you want to you can please review my noms at TAFI. I need some more input. Thanks. Wikipedia:Today's articles for improvement/Nominations.--BabbaQ (talk) 16:06, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

User talk:ONIDANIEL[edit]

Barnstar of Integrity Hires.png The Barnstar of Integrity
Hi there, I just wanted to say that I noticed the lengthy and helpful note you took the time to leave at User talk:ONIDANIEL. I found it very kind and demonstrative of a great amount of integrity. --Non-Dropframe talk 19:00, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

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