User talk:Yuchitown

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Hello, Yuchitown, and Welcome to Wikipedia!

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Happy editing! Uyvsdi (talk) 17:16, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

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Red links[edit]

Can't help but notice you are removing red links from the Native American Artist list. Why would you do that? Red links tell editors what articles are missing so that they can be created? Wiki studies have shown they increase article development. Native American artists, okay Native Americans as a whole, are very underrepresented. Why would you diminish the likelihood of an article being created? SusunW (talk) 01:06, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

To warrant a Wikipedia biography article, an individual has to be notable. For artists and related individuals this means:
  1. The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors.
  2. The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory or technique.
  3. The person has created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews.
  4. The person's work (or works) either (a) has become a significant monument, (b) has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has won significant critical attention, or (d) is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums."

The user MoonHawkArt is MaryBeth Timothy ( She added herself and her husband to the list, which is a conflict of interest or simple self-promotion, about which wp:notpromotion has to say:

Self-promotion. It can be tempting to write about yourself or projects in which you have a strong personal involvement. However, remember that the standards for encyclopedic articles apply to such pages just like any other. This includes the requirement to maintain a neutral point of view, which can be difficult when writing about yourself or about projects close to you. Creating overly abundant links and references to autobiographical sources is unacceptable. See Wikipedia:Autobiography, Wikipedia:Notability and Wikipedia:Conflict of interest.

The Timothys cannot yet demonstrate their notability. Not every single Native American person is automatically notable. Working redlinks into articles might actually be helpful, if an artist is part of the conversation in an existing article, but simply adding your name (or the name of an artist one represents in a gallery, etc.) is a standalone list is just self-promotion. Native Americans in the United States are actually quite well covered in Wikipedia, especially compared to individuals from Latin America, Africa, Australia, or large swaths of Asia. Yuchitown (talk) 03:53, 16 July 2015 (UTC)Yuchitown

Probably a good barometer for notability is asking what article the redlinked artist would be part of the discussion? Yuchitown (talk) 03:58, 16 July 2015 (UTC)Yuchitown
Since Wikipedia is not a self-promotional vehicle, and is not meant for artists to create their own bios but instead meant for notable individuals to be written about by neutral editors validating information with secondary RS, I concur that artists who put their own redlinks into that list need to be culled, but be careful with other red links please. If you look at the list, I have created many articles from it. I often add a red link there and come back to it as time allows. A group of students from Stillwater also used redlinks in the list to generate a wiki editathon. One of those red links I created was made into an article at that editathon on Bert Seabourn, which you edited. Self-promotion is not acceptable, but not all redlinks are that. I still have a redlink outstanding on the David E. Williams file that I am going to get back to if someone doesn't beat me to it. Doc Tate Nevaquaya should've had an article a long time ago. SusunW (talk) 04:29, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
Doc Tate is highly notable and is linked in paragraphs of several music articles. Folks create lists from which to to work on their talk pages, such as this one instead of using a live standalone list article. Yuchitown (talk) 05:16, 16 July 2015 (UTC)Yuchitown
I hear you. I work from any list I can find, but I only work minorities and I work multiple minorities, usually women who are double minorities so I work in the guys when I can. The lists are vital, because of the orphan rule on here, can't leave someone floating alone or their notability is questioned. Many times, the list is all I have to link them to until I get other articles written. SusunW (talk) 05:22, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
Articles don't get deleted for being orphans. It's easy enough to add links once the article is created. Adding one's name to a list is just a zero-effort way to promote oneself. If a standalone list is cluttered with redlinks then it's difficult to discern what is a needed article (I know you can request articles on Native peoples here) and what is just random people adding their names, their relatives' names, artist's whose work they sell, etc. The talk page of list articles would be another place to post redlinked names if you didn't want to simply list upcoming projects on your user page. Yuchitown (talk) 06:42, 16 July 2015 (UTC)Yuchitown

ArbCom elections are now open![edit]

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Thanks for your additions to Ardina Moore. The photo of her work is great! By the bye, we are planning an editathon on indigenous women for August. Scope is global, but if you know of anyone who would be interested in participating or adding red links for us to work on, please let me know. Anyone can add people to the list Wikipedia:WikiProject Women/Women in Red/Indigenous Women but we prefer that at least a source or two is also added to confirm notability. List was just created, so it definitely needs lots of work but we have months to flesh it out. SusunW (talk) 19:13, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Is the Editathon taking place anywhere in particular? I can help promote it offline. You may wish to post this info to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of the Americas and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America. I'll add names. Thanks for letting me know. Yuchitown (talk) 19:22, 20 December 2015 (UTC)Yuchitown
All of our editathons are virtual with Women in Red, you may or may not know, I am in Mexico. But, we often do them in concert with physical events. This month's Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost talks about the process, see the article "Women in Red—" under Project Report. We will definitely include the Projects a little down the road, unless you think it is wise to do it now. Right now, we are just trying to get some active people involved in helping to create a "somewhat" curated list. SusunW (talk) 19:37, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Honestly, most of the people I can think of already have articles. Maybe include a component of improving and updating pre-existing articles? Yuchitown (talk) 19:40, 20 December 2015 (UTC)Yuchitown
That is always a given :) But, I'm sure we'll find plenty. The first few articles I wrote, Tillie Hardwick and Minnie Evans came out of the Indian Termination Policy article. I am sure there are politicians that have not been covered and Moore, I got from the Oklahoma Women's Hall of Fame list. As I said, we have time to work on it, just wanted to make you aware that the list is out there and that an event will be coming up. SusunW (talk) 19:52, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Savvyjack23 (talk) 07:46, 1 January 2016 (UTC)


I understand why you made the edits you did to this article, and frankly I am sympathetic - but there is a specific policy on biographies of living people and it is rather strict, and even more strictly enforced.

The policy says:

Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Users who persistently or egregiously violate this policy may be blocked from editing.

I believe that the edit you made, speculating as to his "real" race, changing his name from the one that you know he prefers to one you believe is "correct", and linking to a user-generated content site which accuses him of "fraud", is contentious. It was also obviously poorly sourced - the site you linked to is not anywhere near being a reliable source. Accordingly I reverted your edits.

I think if you want to say "he says his name is X but he is wrong, it is Y" then you need to find a reliable source that says specifically that. If you want to make the article to say "he is white, not Indian" then frankly I don't think that belongs in that article at all but if you want it there, you need at least one reliable source that says it specifically.

We have to be super, extra, madly careful when editing articles about living people, and the default assumption is that anything controversial just shouldn't be in the article at all unless it is meticulously sourced. There are some admins who (correctly) care very deeply about this kind of issue, and they don't hesitate to ban people who don't play by the rules.


Thparkth (talk) 21:06, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

If a person's legal name (it was never changed; that is the man's name), and census data is considered "contentious," then there are *major* problems with the article. His entire career is based on falsely assuming an Indigenous identity. If he is deemed notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia, then those false claims will have to be examined as they have been in numerous articles with similar situations. Francis Talbot's case is not unique; Plastic shamans are unfortunately a common phenomenon. Yuchitown (talk) 21:36, 11 January 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown
It is the circumstances and the reason behind the edit that makes it contentious. You are not, I would guess, going round other biographies - Donald Trump, say, or Stephen King, and randomly inserting the fact that their fathers and grandfathers are white. You are doing that on this article only, to make the point that, in your opinion, he is not genetically Native American. Why not just find a reliable source that says that directly, and use that in the article? If you can't find such a reliable source, you probably shouldn't say it at all.
As far as his name is concerned, you know that he is (in some circumstances at least) referred to as "Medicine Story" and "Manitonquat". These are the names that reliable sources use, and they are the names he prefers to be identified by. You are not editing those names out simply to correct an error, or to clarify a mixup - you are doing it because you do not believe he is entitled to use those names. That's a legitimate opinion - honestly I agree with you - but a contentious edit for sure. Again, find a reliable source that comments on the name issue, and it can be worked into the article somehow. But original research and dislike of the subject isn't enough - not in any article, but particularly not in a BLP.
I know we may come across as being on opposite "sides" on this, but really that's not the case - I think if you knew my personal opinion on this topic (which I had never heard of before taking part in the DRV) you would find that we mostly agree. All the same, this is a living person's biography and we need to be extraordinarily careful.
Thparkth (talk) 22:40, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
I haven't edited the article further, so don't know why you are continuing to post here. My "opinion" is completely irrelevant to this and any encyclopedic entry; only facts are relevant. The way you are framing this is off-kilter. You might start reading up similar articles to see how previous editors have handler similar situation, because again people trying to use Wikipedia to bolster their claims of being Native Americans or spiritual leaders is commonplace: Rolling Thunder (person), Ward Churchill, Asa Carter, Jimmie Durham, Jamake Highwater, Grey Owl, Andrea Smith (academic). Many, many more have thankfully been deleted. Yuchitown (talk) 00:23, 12 January 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown
p 116, p 665-667 SusunW (talk) 03:43, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
I am sure it will be reverted, but since they put the claims back in that he is from an approved tribe, I added the two sources above as well as the proof that his "band" has neither state nor federal recognition. SusunW (talk) 16:24, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
@SusunW:, you are refuting the claim that he is of Native American ancestry, but that claim wasn't in the article at all until you just added it. Just an FYI. Thparkth (talk) 16:28, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Actually, Thparkth, you are mistaken. I did not add it. CorbieVreccan did [1] with an uncited claim that the Assonet Band is state recognized. I only sourced that it is not and that his claims are not valid. Check the history for yourself. SusunW (talk) 16:38, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Could you clarify for me which part of that revision claims that he is of Native American ancestry? Thparkth (talk) 16:43, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Thparkth "of". Please stop posting on Yuchitown's page. He respectfully asked you not to. I was posting to him, not you. I will not return here to reply to you. If you wish to engage on the talk page, feel free, but I do not war and am unlikely to respond there either. SusunW (talk) 16:50, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
I'm sorry that you are taking that attitude - polite back-and-forth conversations such as this is how Wikipedia is made. Yuchitown has not asked me to stop posting here, although I will stop after this comment anyway. I think you are wrong to say that the language in that specific revision amounts to a claim about Manitonquat's ethnicity. I agree that he has made such claims, and that they are controversial, but I don't think there is really anything we can say about the topic that doesn't amount to WP:SYNTH based on WP:OR, until a reliable source writes specifically about that topic. Thparkth (talk) 17:02, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Okay, I have not edited Manitonquat since the initial edit. I do not intend to. Please take the conservation to Talk:Manitonquat, where it belongs, Thparkth. Thank you User:SusunW. Ciao! Yuchitown (talk) 17:08, 12 January 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown


I supported reversing the CFDR, but we need a split discussion; people are adding other movements to that category for lack of one to put them in ("movement" and "organization" are not synonyms).  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  00:00, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Right, that's why there is Category:Indigenous rights, Category:Indigenous politics in North America, and Category:Native American nationalism. Of the articles in the AIM category, National Council on Indian Opportunity is a Native American rights organization, so I re-categorized that appropriately. Every other article in the AIM category pertains to AIM. Lakota Freedom Movement directly pertains to AIM. Yuchitown (talk) 00:57, 30 January 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown

Your submission at Articles for creation: Victor Griffin (Quapaw) has been accepted[edit]

Victor Griffin (Quapaw), which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
The article has been assessed as C-Class, which is recorded on the article's talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

You are more than welcome to continue making quality contributions to Wikipedia. Note that because you are a logged-in user, you can create articles yourself, and don't have to post a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for Creation if you prefer.

Thank you for helping improve Wikipedia!

Robert McClenon (talk) 21:39, 12 March 2016 (UTC)


You recently commented on an article move that "mythology implies a dead religion". What gave you this idea? Per out definition of Mythology: "Mythology can refer to the collected myths of a group of people—their collection of stories they tell to explain nature, history, and customs—or to the study of such myths."

We have articles on the mythologies of living religions such as Jewish mythology, Christian mythology, and Islamic mythology. The article on mythology also points that mythology is not dead either. The section on "Modern mythology" points that "Many scholars in the field of cultural studies are now beginning to research the idea that myth has worked itself into modern discourses. Modern formats of communication allow for widespread communication across the globe, thus enabling mythological discourse and exchange among greater audiences than ever before. Various elements of myth can now be found in television, cinema, and video games." Dimadick (talk) 22:25, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

How many times have you heard someone describe their own religion as "mythology"? Yuchitown (talk) 22:34, 24 April 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown

Hammonasset (people)[edit]

I have decline the db-a7 on this article because this article is about a people - not a person. DB-A7 is strictly about people, bans, organizations, etc. Not a tribe.--v/r - TP 07:35, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

But there's no speedy deletion tag for a term that is being mistakenly used for a tribe. It's a place name and apparently a chapter of the Improved Order of Red Men[2]. It's not a Native American tribe. Yuchitown (talk) 07:38, 10 May 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown
Speedy deletion is only for deletions that are not contentious. The criteria for CSD is very strict because there is no community vetting before the delete button is hit. That's why we have to do a very good job at adhering to the criteria. Essentially, the community got tired of holding a discussion for every 13 yr old that wants to have an article - so they came up with CSD criteria to skip discussions. But, as you know, all actions on-wiki require consensus. So, if no CSD criteria exists, then no consensus exists to delete that article. Which is why we need to send the article to a consensus developing process. If there is no CSD criteria available, then it doesn't belong at CSD. Try {{prod}} or {{afd}} instead.--v/r - TP 08:07, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
Right on. People would have to look for published sources to see the flaws in the Hammonasset (people) article. Thanks, Yuchitown (talk)Yuchitown

Hey, thanks a lot![edit]

Hi Yuchitown, thanks a lot for the barnstar! I will put it in my awards. Hope you find my work interesting, all the best, Tisquesusa (talk) 05:58, 23 June 2016 (UTC)


Thank you so much for helping to curate our list for indigenous women. Your help has been invaluable and I think we have created a pretty good group to work on. Should I post something on the project page now or just send the invite a couple of days beforehand? SusunW (talk) 05:20, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Hi SusunW, I've never been involved with Editathon, so couldn't offer any advice. Many of these people look obscure even by Indigenous studies standards, but I can try to tackle Jennie Ross Cobb, Patricia Michaels, and Theresa Secord. Yuchitown (talk) 16:30, 23 July 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown
In that case, I will post something there just for a heads up. Three women would be very cool. The editathon is pretty simple since its virtual. You get invited, you sign up (or don't) as a participant. You complete your work wherever you are and add it to the sign-up sheet. That's about it. There are others who will check it for categories, photos, banners, etc. SusunW (talk) 16:50, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Sounds good. I wonder what the best pre-existing biography article is to use as a template? Yuchitown (talk) 17:55, 23 July 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown
Not sure about "best", but here is what I do User talk:Buster7/The List - Women Artists#HOW to.... (I got asked it so often, I wrote it down for another editor and bookmarked his link.) ;) I never ever submit articles for review. Just move them to the main page when you are ready. SusunW (talk) 18:31, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Marie Watt looks pretty basic but well done. I'll use that. Yuchitown (talk) 18:48, 23 July 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown
Many apologies. I did not remember you had said you were going to do Jennie Robb Cobb. SusunW (talk) 23:13, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
No worries! The Jennie Ross Cobb article looks great. I'll look it over and see if I can add anything. I can write Theresa Secord for sure. Yuchitown (talk) 23:50, 13 August 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown
Hello You have recently removed a posting regarding state recognition of the Mount Tabor Indian Community, stating that the bill was only honorary. However, under Texas law the wording of the bill is the issue and the final paragraph states "RESOLVED, That the 85th Legislature of the State of Texas hereby RECOGNIZE THE MOUNT TABOR INDIAN COMMUNITY OF TEXAS and commend it on its many valuable contributions to this state; and, be it further... This is the same wording as the 2008 Lipan Apache bill that was recently upheld by the Fifth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals in a religious case related to possession of eagle feathers. "That the Senate of the State of Texas hereby RECOGNIZE the Lipan Apache Tribe of Texas and commend it on its many valuable contributions to this state; and, be it further..." The feathers were returned due to their being a "state recognized tribe" and a violation of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Note the House bill for the Lipan was worded the same way. The Mount Tabor bill was a joint bill and signed by the Governor. The Governor did not sign the Apache bill since it passed both houses separately, otherwise the status is identical. There is then no discernible difference in the wording of the two tribes recognition. This is different from a 2015 bill for the Texas Band of Yaqui Indians which specifically stated "Honored" not "recognized". My suggestion in wanting to know more about us is to talk to David Cornsilk or Kurt West. I hate wannabes as much as they do, but if you are not familiar with the history of MTIC then a little more research is in order. The bill will stand in federal court, yes it was titled under honorary, but wording changes and a governors signing made it state law and the State of Texas considers MTIC to be a tribe. Thank you for your time.Terran57 (talk) 18:39, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Indigenous women & Polar women editathons[edit]

Inuit women 1907 crop.jpg
You are invited...
Women in Red logo.svg

Indigenous women editathon & Polar women editathon
Hosted by Women in Red - August 2016 - #wikiwomeninred

SusunW (talk) 21:12, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Cool! Yuchitown (talk) 01:24, 25 July 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown

August 2016[edit]

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Ida Redbird[edit]

If you have time or desire, can you look this one over? Not at all familiar with these tribes. Thanks. SusunW (talk) 23:01, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I knew her granddaughter. Philbrook has several of Redbird's pots. Yuchitown (talk) 00:16, 16 August 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown
Wow, SusunW, that was thorough! I'm impressed you could find all the information out. I'm tweaked some of the phrasing, which of course you can change. One thing, even though the article said "kiln," she fired outside over a fire, instead of using an electric kiln. Thanks for all that you do! Yuchitown (talk) 01:41, 16 August 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown
I spent my honeymoon (and every summer of my childhood in art classes) at Philbrook. :) Thanks for the copyedits. I always prefer to have someone look over the Native American articles to catch things that I might miss or might be just wrong. SusunW (talk) 02:25, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for inviting me to do so. The only problem I saw was that P— term for Tohono O'odham is consider extremely derogatory by them, so it's better to leave it out. Even though there's still a freeway with that name in Phoenix. Yuchitown (talk) 02:50, 16 August 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown
And those are the kinds of things I don't know about the tribes I am not familiar with. Again, thanks. I loved the picture I found too. Showed how she formed the pots, which I think is important. SusunW (talk) 03:04, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Yeah! I amazed you can find photos of these people as well. I'll get cracking next week (shouldn't be on Wikipedia—should be working—accck!!). Have a good one! Yuchitown (talk) 03:10, 16 August 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown

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I need to make some phone calls, but the AIM claims don't hold water. I don't see it in the sources, and the phrasing is not what is or was used for what he's allegedly referring to. I'm cutting the stuff about his civil rights work unless it can be reliably sourced. The source that's there now for those claims seems to have simply relied on his self-reporting and not done any due diligence. If you want more specifics, email me. - CorbieV 20:26, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Phone calls?? You really don't know who Jimmie Durham is? He's not Indian but he is AIM (just like his tight buddy Ward Churchill, and they both used to date Winona LaDuke.) I don't know anything about his involvement in the African-American community but I cited Durham's involvement in AIM and his leadership of the International Indian Treaty Council. I can dig up more citations. And he is truly is an absurdly famous artist. Sickening, but the Canadians and Europeans *love* him. Yuchitown (talk) 01:47, 11 September 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown
I actually don't know him. Either we just missed one another, or he or the interviewer are not being, um, accurate, about exactly where and when he was involved. The phrasing in the interview about certain things is still very odd, but that may be the writer's fault. Anyway, there's too much more important stuff going on right now so, if he wants to use an incorrect name for what he was doing, OK. It's just... well... as suspect to me as the Cherokee claim. But then again, there are people who were involved in one branch who never did anything with others. It's complicated. If you want to put it in, go ahead. There's some stuff that may come up later, but it may not be that important right now. - CorbieV 17:53, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
I'm no fan of Jimmie Durham, but his notability—especially in the art world—is unimpeachable. When you deleted everything, I was thinking, Oh man, now I have to rebuild this guy's article :( Several scholars are currently publishing books about him, and he has a huge retrospective coming up, so expect to hear more about him in the future. Yuchitown (talk) 18:22, 11 September 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown
You deserve an apology. I did some checking and you're right, he was involved in NYC and some other areas. We just managed to not cross paths, and the weird descriptions threw me off. You've got the right of it. I'm very sorry for the confusion. I know I've said it before but, I actually haven't read many of the commonly-read books about Indian issues, especially if they were written by nons, and unless it was written by someone I know or about someone I know, I'm not always up on what's going to be published, either. I know what my friends, relatives and I have lived through, and then if something needs sourcing I look to see what's out there and try to get up to speed. I should have done more looking (and, yes, made those phone calls) before I slashed and burned or even before I said anything. <3 - CorbieV 18:32, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
"I actually haven't read many of the commonly-read books about Indian issues, especially if they were written by nons, " Same here. The terrible books far outnumber the good ones. It's like no one in Native studies and popular media actually reads anyone else. Actually, it would be an improvement if journalists even consulted Wikipedia on some of these issues. Yuchitown (talk) 18:38, 11 September 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown

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ArbCom Elections 2016: Voting now open![edit]

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The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

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Helen Peterson[edit]

We're back to our Indigenous Women editathon for 2017. If you have time, would you look this one over? I did not want to ignore the controversy surrounding her term with NCAI, but I also wanted to make sure it remained neutral and would appreciate your review. I also am a bit perplexed about the discussion of her living with her grandmother, so I left it out entirely. This [3] source says she lived with her Cheyenne grandmother, Lucille Mae White. I think that is incorrect, as I believe that was her mother's name. According to the 1920 census [4], the family was living with Lucille's mother, Louise Henderson. That then confused me further, as was it the Henderson connection that was Cheyenne and thus related to Black Kettle, or was there really a grandmother White who was Cheyenne. I sort of felt like until another source could be found clarifying it that it should be omitted. Anyway, thanks for your help. As always, I appreciate it. SusunW (talk) 23:48, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

So sorry, I don't know anything about this person :( Yuchitown (talk) 16:17, 15 September 2017 (UTC)Yuchitown
I didn't either, but when I found so many sources, I thought her story should be told. So many women and minorities have been lost to history. I retrieve them one at a time. SusunW (talk) 17:20, 15 September 2017 (UTC)