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Centralized discussion


Requests for closure

These requests for closure are transcluded from Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure.

Wikipedia:Non-free content review

This discussion forum has an extensive backlog where the oldest active entry was started on 10 June 2015 ({{Initiated|10 June 2015}}), and at the time if me posting this request, the page has 163 discussions that have yet to be closed, several started over a month ago. Steel1943 (talk) 19:10, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Please update {{Initiated}} below as the backlog is (slowly) taken care of.--Aervanath (talk) 19:35, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
(Initiated 167 days ago on 13 June 2015)
About 155 discussions still to be closed.

Since this discussion board is now deprecated, and there will be no new discussions opened there, I would appreciate some help clearing the backlog.--Aervanath (talk) 21:56, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

  • I just "did" about 3 of them. For the ones where I believe could really use more discussion, I've been relisting them on WP:FFD (but not in huge droves as that would overwhelm the daily subpages over there.) Steel1943 (talk) 21:59, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Yugoslavia#Should FR Yugoslavia's image be included in the lead

Can this RfC be closed. The consensus has been established and the article is already altered accordingly. However ,a formal closure would help to split this RfC with other that are unrelated. (talk) 20:19, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

On hold - The RfC has been open for less than two weeks and editors are still commenting. - MrX 17:40, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at the RfC at Talk:Yugoslavia#Should FR Yugoslavia's image be included in the lead (Initiated 51 days ago on 7 October 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 05:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Umpqua Community College shooting#Photo of Harper-Mercer

If there is consensus, it needs accurate closing rationale. George Ho (talk) 22:44, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Umpqua Community College shooting#Photo of Harper-Mercer (Initiated 52 days ago on 6 October 2015)? There has been no discussion since 17 October 2015. As noted at Talk:Umpqua Community College shooting/Archive 4#Result of RfC on shooter photo, the discussion was prematurely archived by the bot and later restored from the archive to the talk page. Thanks, Cunard (talk) 02:04, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
Actually, someone voted on the previous day, 26 October 2015. George Ho (talk) 03:09, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
I took a look at it, and it looks no consensus at this point, perhaps a few more days will get some more responses. AlbinoFerret 22:39, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
Five days passed, AlbinoFerret. Want to take a request? --George Ho (talk) 17:23, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
  •  Request withdrawn. The image is reinserted with a caption linking to ongoing FFD discussion. --George Ho (talk) 19:38, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Papineau (electoral district)#RfC: (Policy) Using bad practices from one article to justify another and possible sock puppetry; and (Politics) Acceptability of aggregated data in "Election Results" section

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Papineau (electoral district)#RfC: (Policy) Using bad practices from one article to justify another and possible sock puppetry; and (Politics) Acceptability of aggregated data in "Election Results" section (Initiated 74 days ago on 14 September 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 02:04, 26 October 2015 (UTC)


Would an experienced uninvolved editor assess the consensus at this RSN discussion? (Initiated 41 days ago on 17 October 2015) Kingsindian  23:39, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Now archived at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 198#Max Blumenthal. Armbrust The Homunculus 08:14, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 123#Revisiting MOS:IDENTITY in articles about transgender individuals and Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Clarifying MOS:IDENTITY in articles in which transgender individuals are mentioned in passing

Admin closure requested. These two RfCs went up on October 11. They address Wikipedia's policy toward transgender individuals, specifically which pronouns and names to use when discussing parts of their lives before their gender transition. The first addresses whether Wikipedia's current policy on biographical articles, MOS:IDENTITY, should be changed and if so to what. The second addresses whether MOS:IDENTITY should be amended to include a rule about how to refer to trans individuals in articles of which they are not the principal subject. It's been a few days since our last new comment. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:15, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Both were (Initiated 47 days ago on 11 October 2015). AlbinoFerret 14:36, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
    • The discussions are still ongoing. This should be left open until they peter out. The issue comes up again and again, so this should run its course until exhausted, so we can be certain the discussion is as thorough as it practically can be this time. I'd advocate giving it at least a few more days, if not a week. It's more important to get a solid consensus this time than an expedient one.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  14:31, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
It had been a couple days since our last new comment when I first posted this request and it has once again been a couple days since our last comment. Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:56, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#Is it OK for Wikipedia to choose its own pronunciation symbols?

This discussion is happening on three pages at once (NORNB, Help talk:IPA for English where it actually belongs, plus another at MOS:PRONUNCIATION). This NORNB tine of the fork has turned into another couple-of-editors-textwalling-against-each-other thing, and is actually in the wrong venue. WP:NOR pertains to the information content, not how WP presentationally wraps it. I.e., the actual content that is subject to core content policies is what the pronunciation(s) is/are. WP has multiple pronunciation transcription markup systems, and like our citation styles, this is WP-original metadata, not subject to WP:CORE. One of them is based on (mostly American) dictionary-style pronunciation keys: [pro-NUN-see-ay-shun]; the other loosely based on IPA. Both are synthetic and are internal matters, and not subject to WP:NOR / WP:V. As long as the pronunciation that emerges in the reader's mind is verifiable, it does not matter what markup wrapper we convey it with. Both of our extant pronunciation guide systems could be replaced tomorrow with something entirely different and even more arbitrary (even one consisting of entirely WP-invented orthography, though that would not of course be practical). While I agree that OP has a point – it's not wise for us to use a WP-modified version of IPA that conflicts with IPA norms that a linguist would expect – that's not an NOR matter, but a matter for consensus discussion at the IPA for English talk page. The discussion there should remain open until naturally resolved or a closure request is made, while the one at NORNB should be closed as no consensus / off topic. (Initiated 31 days ago on 27 October 2015)  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  14:47, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Now both sides of the dispute have conceded that this won't be resolved as a WP:NOR issue, so this fork of the discussion has no reason to stay open at WP:NORNB, and can be centralized, finally, at Help talk:IPA for English, which is collectively trying to actually resolve it.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  11:10, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive231#109 BLP articles labelled "Climate Change Deniers" all at once

"Closure by admin requested for WP:BLPN discussion BLP articles labelled "Climate Change Deniers" all at once". (Initiated 28 days ago on 30 October 2015) Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:00, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

  • When this is closed it definitely needs to be closed in tandem with Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2015_October_16#Category:Climate_Change_deniers. I've read through a lot this morning and have no idea what to do; there's no strong consensus to do anything (i.e. there is zero agreement on what wording to actually use) but there is pretty strong consensus that the current situation is not sufficient for BLP. There are a lot of other factors at play here too; like how some BLP's are badly categorised anyway (which the rename may have compounded). My feeling is that we're I to close this I'd do a no-consensu o what to call the category, delete the cat under WP:BLPCAT and open a neutral RFC incorporating all of the main suggestions for category naming and inclusion criteria, to resolve this in detail. --Errant (chat!) 10:00, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for mentioning that parallel discussion. In addition to the immediate issue, there was also a procedural disagreement about whether WP:BLPCAT claims should be decided as a BLP Incident or as a Category for Discussion. I don't know if there is an answer to that jurisdictional question but it may matter since the the two conversations had starkly different consensuses. RevelationDirect (talk) 19:15, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
IIRC, policy-based decisions trump "content decisions" and suggest that the CfD was the latter, and the BLP/N decision the former. Collect (talk) 11:35, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:List of military occupations#How should Palestinian statehood be represented in this list?

Need a consensus to be assessed please.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 19:28, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at the RfC at Talk:List of military occupations#How should Palestinian statehood be represented in this list? (Initiated 43 days ago on 15 October 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 05:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Bill Cosby#Mention of allegations in lead sentence?

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Bill Cosby#Mention of allegations in lead sentence? (Initiated 32 days ago on 26 October 2015)? See the subsection Talk:Bill Cosby#Which version to use?. Please consider the closed RfC Talk:Bill Cosby/Archive 3#RfC: Should the allegations of sexual assault be mentioned in the lede? in your close. Thanks, Cunard (talk) 05:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Now archived at Talk:Bill Cosby/Archive 3#Mention of allegations in lead sentence? Armbrust The Homunculus 11:16, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 55#Owen 'Alik Shahadah

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at the RfC at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 55#Owen 'Alik Shahadah (Initiated 55 days ago on 3 October 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 05:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Denali#RfC: Propose moratorium

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Denali#RfC: Propose moratorium (Initiated 57 days ago on 1 October 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 05:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Superpower#RfC: Ottoman Empire superpower

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Superpower#RfC: Ottoman Empire superpower (Initiated 51 days ago on 7 October 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 05:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries#RFC: Is the One Million Plan relevant to the topic of this article?

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries#RFC: Is the One Million Plan relevant to the topic of this article? (Initiated 47 days ago on 11 October 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 05:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain#RfC - Character reception before release

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain#RfC - Character reception before release (Initiated 62 days ago on 26 September 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 05:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:The Stone Roses (album)#Greatest ever vs. overrated

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:The Stone Roses (album)#Greatest ever vs. overrated (Initiated 57 days ago on 1 October 2015)? See the subsection Talk:The Stone Roses (album)#RfC: Should this revision be retained?. Thanks, Cunard (talk) 05:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:C/1980 E1#C/1980 E1

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at the RfC at Talk:C/1980 E1#C/1980 E1 (Initiated 61 days ago on 27 September 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 05:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Campus sexual assault#RfC on recent AAU campus climate survey

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Campus sexual assault#RfC on recent AAU campus climate survey (Initiated 53 days ago on 5 October 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 05:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

  • The RFC was reposted Nov 17th. AlbinoFerret 23:50, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:2015 Ankara bombings#International reactions

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:2015 Ankara bombings#International reactions (Initiated 47 days ago on 11 October 2015)? See the subsection Talk:2015 Ankara bombings#RfC: Are messages of condolence worthwhile inclusions to Wikipedia?. Thanks, Cunard (talk) 05:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch#RfC: Change our usage of "stampede" for crowd disasters to reflect word definitions and not race, regardless of sources?

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch#RfC: Change our usage of "stampede" for crowd disasters to reflect word definitions and not race, regardless of sources? (Initiated 49 days ago on 9 October 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 05:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive904#Continued Anti-Semitic concern trolling by User:Mrandrewnohome at the Reference Desks

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive904#Continued Anti-Semitic concern trolling by User:Mrandrewnohome at the Reference Desks (Initiated 22 days ago on 5 November 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 05:01, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Since this is on an admin board, shouldn’t an admin close it? AlbinoFerret 18:06, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Community discussion regarding disruptive edits to Heathenry-themed articles

Would an administrator assess the consensus at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Community discussion regarding disruptive edits to Heathenry-themed articles (Initiated 16 days ago on 11 November 2015) and administer news of a topic ban to the user in question if that is what consensus calls for? Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:55, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Non-free content#Images of victims and/or perps on crime pages

Uninvolved administrator needed. --George Ho (talk) 16:09, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Domestic violence#Should the Scientific American "rates of domestic violence are roughly equal between men and women" material be included?

The WP:RfC tag recently expired. This is a contentious discussion, and an impartial administrator is needed to close it (preferably the entire "Domestic violence affects both genders and children" section it is a part of). Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:58, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Closed by Alsee. Sam Walton (talk) 23:58, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2015 November#Kim Davis (county clerk)

(Initiated 18 days ago on 9 November 2015) - review of a move originally proposed 21 October 2015. Experience closing contentious discussions needed, and apologies in advance for the wall of text. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:56, 23 November 2015 (UTC)


(Initiated 24 days ago on 3 November 2015) Would an admin please review the consensus and close this AfD? A non-admin closure was objected to and reverted a few days ago, since this is a contentious topic. Kingsindian  15:27, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Full Service (book)#RfC: One or two articles?

Very little participation excluding involved parties. Need accurate rationale. --George Ho (talk) 07:34, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Relisted Nov 16th. AlbinoFerret 23:51, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:In the news/Recurring items#Removal proposal: Sprint Cup Series

Uninvolved administrator needed, though recent Sprint Cup was featured in the News. George Ho (talk) 05:31, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2015 November 8#Category:Blue-eyed soul singers

(edit conflict) Discussion has been open since 8 November 2015. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 05:33, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Mount Sinai Beth Israel#RfC: Should hospital articles include lists of notable people who died there?

Easy WP:SNOW case. Esquivalience t 21:14, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Community discussion regarding disruptive edits to Heathenry-themed articles

I propose a community-discussion with regards to implementing a topic ban on User:Thor Lives that would prohibit them from contributing to articles broadly related to Paganism, and more specifically to the Pagan religion of Heathenry. This is to deal with the fact that they are responsible for disruptive editing on topics of this nature, perhaps motivated by their self-professed adherence to Odinism (a typically right-wing, ethnic-oriented form of Heathenry). More specifically they have a) carried out a range of disruptive edits to the Heathenry article entailing damage to the article and attacks on other editors, b) usurped the GA process to further their aims, and c) created a coat rack article.

During August and September they were particularly active on the Heathenry page, where they engaged in repeated edit warring,[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] acted against two consensus decisions (by both renaming the article to their chosen title [6] [7] [8] and adding disputed material [9]), deleted text that was sourced to (academic) reliable-references because they didn't like what it had to say [10] [11] [12], and repeatedly added citations to non-reliable references in order to push possibly fringe views, meanwhile erroneously insisting that primary sources should be used [13] [14]. On the talk page and elsewhere they engaged in personal attacks against other editors [15] [16], made false allegations of sock puppetry [17], actively misrepresented the actions and arguments of their critics [18] [19] [20] [21] and engaged in "outing", a serious form of Harassment [22] [23]. Throughout, I was forced to resort to RfCs and temporary blocks on editing the article to prevent the disruptive behaviour.

After their disruptive editing on the Heathenry page was thwarted by myself and other editors, Thor Lives focused his attentions on the Odinism page, which, as User:Snowded has pointed out, has basically been formed into a coatrack article in which Thor Lives has repeated many of the problems that were raised over at Heathenry (adding non-reliable references, pursuing an 'insider' Odinist agenda etc).

Most recently, when I nominated the Heathenry article at GAN earlier this week, Thor Lives nominated himself as reviewer (despite having never reviewed a GAN before) and from his comments it was apparent that he simply wanted to use this process as a platform to try and force his (previously rejected) ideas onto the article. Pointing this out to him, I terminated the GAN and re-nominated it. However, at this second GAN he again presented himself as a reviewer, at which I had to terminate yet again, and re-nominate for a third time. This pattern of disruptive editing has been going on for at least four months now, and is having a real detrimental effect on these Paganism-themed articles and a draining impact on the constructive editors working to improve them. Accordingly, I think that we need to have a community discussion about how to deal with this problem, with my suggestion being that a topic ban might be needed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:39, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Initial discussion

Two comments, and I'll ignore everything else. (1) All GA reviewers have to start somewhere, but GA reviewers must be "unaffiliated" with the article; if you've previously been active in the article and/or its talk page, you have no business reviewing it for GA. If you keep it up, you need to be sanctioned. (2) The two outing diffs aren't outing; he's saying basically "From your editing, it looks like you're this guy". If he were outing you, he would say "Hello, name", not "Hello, name (or one of his acolytes)". Looking at a user's contributions and guessing thereby at the identity of its owner isn't fundamentally different from identifying sockpuppets by behavioral evidence (both are WP:DUCK), although of course it can be done in a harassing manner. No comment on whether it's non-outing harassment. Nyttend (talk) 14:27, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
I can't see anything about outing? Am I missing something? Otherwise I think it is time for a sanction, three attempts to usurp the GA process following a history of edit warring should be enough. The coat rack article really needs to be nominated for deletion. ----Snowded TALK 14:45, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Are you saying that you see no evidence of outing in Midnightblueowl's links, or you're confused about my comments? If the former, I agree. If the latter, look for the word "serious" (it only appears once in this section, as of now) and follow the diffs immediately after it. Nyttend (talk) 14:56, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
ThorLives' opened a conversation with me starting with "Hello, Mark Ludwig Stinson (or one of his acolytes)", and continued with "you seem to be Mr. Stinson or one of his followers". That seems like a clear attempt to establish my 'real world' identity (correctly or not, it doesn't matter) and thus a breach of our anti-Outing policy. As our policy says, "Posting another editor's personal information is harassment... Personal information includes legal name... Do not treat incorrect attempts at outing any differently from correct attempts". ThorLives tried to identify my 'real life' identity and make it public here on Wikipedia. That seems like a contravention of the Outing policy to me, but I appreciate that other editors here might disagree with me on that. Either way, it is merely one component of a much wider campaign of disruptive editing, the evidence for which is abundant. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:03, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
I concur that it's a clear example of attempted outing. --Errant (chat!) 15:06, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
(ec). I stand to be corrected if it was more than just a wild accusation. Thor seems to throw out accusations based on assumptions about people who oppose his view. I didn't take that too seriously. So no evidence of outing (the former Nyttend). The overall point is that we have a very disruptive editor here - there is the need for some sanction of restriction ----Snowded TALK 15:07, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
With regard to our outing policy, I'm not sure that it really matters whether it was a wild accusation or a more concerted and deliberate attempt; either way, it was a contravention of the policy. The intent behind it is not of particular importance, imo. However, I certainly concur with your latter point, Snowded; the issue of outing is not the main issue here but merely one aspect of a wider problem which needs to be dealt with through sanctions. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:16, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Not sure where Thor got the idea that you're Stinson; your times-of-editing patterns are in line with your claim to be in western Europe, and they're quite bizarre for someone who lives in Kansas City, Missouri. Acolyte isn't made impossible by geography, but it's a stretch unless you've declared such a thing. Either way, it's obviously not some private information; he's guessing from your editing patterns. Meanwhile, if I'd looked at the GA reviewing more carefully before commenting, I may well have blocked for that alone, although (by itself) intentionally messing up the GA process is no grounds for an informal topic ban (e.g. "Make more edits in this field and you'll be blocked") or an outright indefinite block; you'd have to have a discussion like this one. No support because I don't feel like investigating enough to support, but definitely no opposition. Nyttend (talk) 16:58, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
@Nyttend: would you therefore perhaps support separate action to deal specifically with the GA disruption issue that is independent to the wider debate surrounding a topic ban to deal with the persistent disruptive editing problem? Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:31, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
It depends. If your proposal passes, there's no need for separate action. However, sanctions are definitely needed somehow, so definitely supporting sanctions for the GA only, if the same thing isn't accomplished for other reasons. Nyttend (talk) 17:32, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
If I may, I shall divide this section into two then; one to deal specifically with the GAN issues, and one to deal with the possible topic ban. That way editors such as yourself can contribute to the former without having to commit themselves to the latter. Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:37, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

GAN specific sanctions

As per the discussion above involving User:Nyttend and User:Snowded, this section is being established to deal with the proposal that ThorLives face sanctions specifically for their actions over at the GANs for Heathenry (new religious movement). It is not a place to debate the response to their wider pattern of disruptive editing, which will be dealt with separately in a different section below. Any editor may contribute to either section or both. Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:41, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Hesitant to do this, as it's a potential distraction from the potentially bigger issue. I was suggesting GA-related sanctions basically as a backup to the other: if sanctions are warranted for the heathenism issue, the GA-related issue will be trivial, while if they aren't, we can deal with the GA after that. Let's just stick with the side suggestions that Snowded and I have made, along with others' similar suggestions if they get made. Nyttend (talk) 17:44, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Okay, I am happy to put this discussion on ice for the time being. Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:47, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban

  • Support Topic Ban from Heathenry, religion and anything remotely related. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:14, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support as nominator: My recommendation would be a topic ban on Heathenry, all forms of modern Paganism, and ancient/medieval Germanic society (three subjects closely interlinked with Odinism). Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:20, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose check the talk page completely, Odin has made suggestions that were upheld on the talk page, not all of them , to be sure, but some of his contributions were positive. Also, he seems to be having the same problem a lot of researchers have when they first come to Wikipedia, I'd hate to seem him T-Banned over it, rather, if he'll accept a mentor, he could learn and become a positive contributor.KoshVorlon 16:51, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
  • With respect Kosh, I disagree. It was not claimed that ThorLives' edits were 100% negative, because they aren't: he is not a vandal and no doubt wants to "improve" the encyclopedia as he sees fit. However, the patterns of constant, recurring disruptive editing are very clear, and surely that cancels out any meager positive contribution that he has made? At what point does some small positive contribution redeem both the damage to the articles themselves and all the stress and annoyance caused to constructive editors who have to make repairs and put up with abusive remarks as they do so? (You note that he has "made suggestions that were upheld on the talk page" but from what I can see the only time this happened was when he recommended in passing that we add more information about Ragnarok into the article, which I myself endorsed. Everything else has been non-constructive at best, often disruptive, and sometimes abusive). Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:12, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Moreover, I disagree with your presentation of him as a newcomer who just needs a bit more gentle guidance in how to use Wikipedia. He has been an active user since at least November 2011, which is more than enough time to learn the ropes and gain an understanding of policy. Further, if you read through that talk page, related user talk pages, and the page edit summaries, you will see that he has been made aware of how his actions contravene policy again and again and again (by myself and others). We keep linking him to the specific policies and explaining what he has done wrong and how to avoid it next time, but we're just being ignored; this can be seen for instance in his repeated attempts to incorporate primary sources by Odinist authors into both this article and related ones (namely his coatrack at Odinism), despite the fact that we have repeatedly explained how and why this is against our reliable sourcing policy. I could cite multiple other examples, but I don't want to bore you. He just doesn't appear to care about adhering to Wikipedia's policies, as is reflected in such statements as "Wikipedia jargon does not interest me." Frankly, I don't see how someone who has no interest in learning how Wikipedia operates and who is repeatedly disruptive is going to change their tune all of a sudden and become constructive and civil. Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:12, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
  • To be fair, it is okay to use primary sources in an article on the primary source if they are being used appropriately to reflect what it is the primary source believes. However from taking a quick look at the talk page Thor is not doing that. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:16, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban per nominator. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:32, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support as an infrequent contributor to the article, and a witness to ThorLives' repeated efforts to impose his personal views on the article. Stormkith (talk) 07:37, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban per nom and recommend mentorship. Viriditas (talk) 00:48, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban unless editor agrees to mentorship ----Snowded TALK 03:26, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban. I've been musing over this for a couple of days, and the more I have looked at this, the more sure I have become that ThorLives is a problem editor. His claims to be an academic in this field are (I am around 90% sure) a lie, which strikes me as exceedingly bad form and a clumsy attempt to have others protect him and help him push his view. His battlefield mentality, disrespectful behaviour (insisting on calling MBO "he" despite her frequent polite requests to the contrary is, alone, problematic), wikilawyering (see the "outing" discussion below, for example), continual refusal to get the point and abuse of Wikipedia processes (edit warring, GA nominations) are typical of POV-pushers. He does not seem to be here to improve Wikipedia, which is regrettable, as he does have at least some knowledge of the subject matter to which he is contributing; with a clearer understanding of Wikipedia policies and, most importantly, a more respectful attitude towards other Wikipedians, he could have been in a position to make very valuable contributions to this area. Josh Milburn (talk) 09:56, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support a regrettable but necessary topic ban on the editor in question. I've looked into this and, after seeing a number of their edits to the page in question, I've seen enough. The editor in question is exhibiting all the typical characteristics of a POV editor pushing their own personal non-neutral, non-academic, and in this case, right-wing views. The fact that they are averse to the policies of Wikipedia is particularly disturbing. Their disruptive edits speak for themselves. On the other hand, I am familiar with the nominator Midnightblueowl, whom I have worked with off an on here on Wikipedia over a period of many years (we have written a few Featured Articles together) and, after seeing a number of their edits to the page in question, am reassured of her usual high-quality ethics and expertise. Prhartcom (talk) 14:29, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

It has been four days since this debate opened (and two since anyone new cast a vote), and we now have eight votes in support of a topic ban and one in opposition. That seems pretty conclusive, and accordingly I think that we should administer a topic ban on ThorLives, preventing him from editing articles on Heathenry and broadly related topics (which would include articles on contemporary Paganism, related forms of religion, and Germanic society more widely). As I understand it, that would include banning him from changing redirects or posting on talk pages, GANs, peer reviews, and FACs related to those subjects (particularly as ThorLives has used GANs and talk pages as a place to edit disruptively). However, is it premature to bring this to an end and enforce the sanction after so few days? If not, it there an administrator who might bring this about (or can any editor do it)? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:36, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

You could request a closure here, perhaps. Josh Milburn (talk) 17:54, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
That's a good idea. I have just done so. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:03, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose/Alternate restriction The editor has made some useful contributions. I suggest they be page-banned from Heathenry (new religious movement) but not its talk page, and topic banned from the subject of Midnightblueowl. Rhoark (talk) 20:27, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
    • With respect Rhoark, what are those useful contributions? The only example that I can see is a single comment recommending that we could expand our coverage of Heathen beliefs about Ragnarok in the article. And even if you believe that there are a few more, how do these outweigh the constant disruptiveness? Does 5% constructive behaviour counterbalance 95% disruptive behaviour? Further, I don't see how a page ban would help at all; the editor has shown that they are also disruptively editing on other related articles (such as their coatrack at Odinism) as well as on related Talk Pages and GANs. A page ban that purely protects one particular article would offer little benefit and would not deal with the fundamental problem at all. It would be like trying to deal with a freshly severed limb by applying a band aid. A topic ban is completely necessary. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:10, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support The Heathenry article is quite good. The Odinist coatrack borders on being unreadable. The Heathenry talk page also displays an editor that simply doesn't get RS or consensus and seems unwilling to learn it. One also has to question the claimed expertise of a supposed academic that is unaware that Germanic refers to historic peoples who shared Germanic languages and a certain commonality in culture as opposed to modern day Germany. Capeo (talk) 05:15, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Update as of 18 November: A week has now passed, and we now have nine votes in support of a topic ban and two in opposition. At the risk of being accused of launching an ad hominem attack, it may be pertinent and of interest to users here that ThorLives is also currently being investigated for sock puppetry here, including the use of a sock puppet to continue their edits to Odinism and thus avoid further scrutiny of the ThorLives account. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:04, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

What a coincidence! Holtj has been dormant since 2008, magically reappears the day after ThorLives' last edit, and carries on right where ThorLives left off, even mentioning him by name on the talkpage: "CHECK THE EDITS OF THORLIVES. HE IS A PHD WHO LEFT WIKIPEDIA BECUASE OF THE ENDLESS ATTACKS OF THE PERSON ABOVE".--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 02:12, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

ThorLives' response

If I am violating some wikipdia policy, I send my regrets. Frankly, as a sixty-five year university professor, I am rather confused by all of the various rules and regulations.

I do know academic content, however, and at various times I have tried to prevent wholesale changes that one person was making to articles connected to Germanic neopaganism. All of my attempted edits to Germanic neopaganism have been reversed by (talk) Midnightblueowl. Also, when I attempt to act in defense, he repeatedly tries to have me banned or blocked. (I believe this is the fourth time he has attacked me. )

I have made many complaints on the talk page, but the main problem is neutrality. The article, as presently constituted, draws almost exclusively from the work of left-wing Norse pagans, many (like Dr. Snook) have been expelled from mainline groups such as the Asatru Folk Assembly. I attached a tag challenging the neutrality of the article, but it was deleted by the same person who rewrote the entire article and then nominated the piece as a "good article."

The present article also contains many errors of fact. I would correct them, but my edits on this article have all been deleted by the person who rewrote it. Example: the word for one of the souls is typically hugr--not hugh. (Norse pagans use Old Norse terms) I have also complained when the article was renamed Heathenry. The neutral term is Germanic neopaganism. Stephen McNallen, an American Asatru leader, avoids "heathen" because in the "public mind" it means an "ignorant, superstitious, or uncouth person." Stephen A. McNallen. Asatru: A Native European Spirituality. Runestone Press. 2015. p. 2 ISBN 0972029257.

Likewise, Dr. Michael Strmiska, a pagan who studies the subject, [24] made this observation: "I prefer Norse-Germanic Paganism as a catch-all term that covers all relevant bases and slights none."

Regarding banning me from the topic, I am a professor who lectures and writes on the topic. Indeed, Midnightblueowl even uses me as a source in her edits! I would identify myself, but Midnightblueowl seems to be a belligerent person.

For the record, I have never tried to block or ban him. --ThorLives (talk) 00:41, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

--ThorLives (talk) 00:34, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

I've made it quite clear to you that I use female gender pronouns, ThorLives. You can convince yourself that I'm a man and that my profile is a total ruse all you want, but at least show me the respect of using the pronouns that I ask you to use. It is basic courtesy. Further, while your statement that you have "never tried to block or ban" me might be quite correct, it also brings up an important point: I have not done anything to warrant being blocked or banned. Conversely, you have.
As for ThorLives' claim that he has been cited by me, I can see that not a single one of the academics whom I have referenced in the Heathenry article fit the profile of a 65-year old male Odinist who works as a university professor. Not one. This, coupled with several observations made by both myself and Bloodofox here, cast strong doubt as to the claimed academic credentials of ThorLives. An academic with a specialism in the subject matter would not make the basic errors of fact that ThorLives has made. They would be accustomed to structuring their argument in a logical and well-thought out manner, which is quite the opposite of ThorLives' rambling, disjointed, and poorly written style of commenting. They would be intelligent enough to master the comparatively simple rules and regulations of Wikipedia in a short period of time. If well acquainted with the field of religious studies, they would not make such an erroneous claim as "When studying a religion... an academic would rather talk to a pope than someone sitting in a pew in Philadelphia" (ever heard of the anthropology of religion, sociology of religion, or psychology of religion?). They would surely be more likely to refer to colleagues like Michael Strmiska and Jennifer Snook as "a religious studies scholar" or "sociologist of religion" respectively, rather than as "a pagan who studies the subject" and a "left-wing Norse pagan". Further, I very much doubt that they would condemn the citation of some of their colleague's publications simply because these individuals were "left-wing".
All in all, ThorLives has not exhibited any trait that I would associate with an established, older academic and university professor; instead, they have exhibited many traits that I would associate with a (possibly quite young) individual who has little or no familiarity with academia beyond perhaps reading a few scholarly books or, at best, a basic undergraduate course. It would certainly not be stretching the imagination to suggest that the "I'm an older university professor with a PhD" claim which ThorLives has repeatedly employed is simply a ruse to gain recognition as an intellectual authority from other Wikipedia editors. I can't help but suspect that there might be some relevance to a comment that they made on my talk page in which they declared that they admired editors who used "cunning" and "disinformation trick[s]" on Wikipedia. After all, what better way to try and gain kudos on an encyclopedia than to declare "Trust me. I am a published academic." Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:09, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Well, let's be fair. A PhD isn't worth the paper it's printed on unless the person holding the degree gets to beat you on the head with it like a weapon in every discussion. Viriditas (talk) 03:58, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

To be clear, every edit that I ever made to Heathenry (new religious movement) was deleted by Midnightblueowl. Usually, the deletions were immediate. (Normally, I was simply adding references.) Because I had no edits to the page, I thought I could comment on his nomination of the article as a "good article." --ThorLives (talk) 20:31, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Question: So a person (Midnightblueowl) can hijack and article, rename it (the neutral term is Germanic Neopaganism, not heathenry), delete the edits of everyone else, and nominate his own article as a good article, and then ban someone who complains about the quality of the article?

If that is the rule, I can respect it, but it looks rather unfair. --ThorLives (talk) 20:31, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

My edits are being totally misrepresented here. Similarly, ThorLives has omitted key details regarding these events in order to present their own actions as innocent and constructive, which they demonstrably weren't. All of the information that I deleted on the Heathenry article was either a) un-referenced, b) referenced using non-reliable primary sources, or c) otherwise referenced inappropriately (for instance using sources about pre-Christian belief systems to support claims being made about new religious movements). As policy dictates, it therefore required removal. Further, I did not unilaterally change the page name from "Germanic neopaganism" to "Heathenry" but rather (at the suggestion of another editor) initiated an RfC discussion on the subject, which resulted in a group consensus to move the article name to that most commonly used in academic reliable sources. Thor Lives then embarked on an edit war to restore his favoured title until multiple un-involved editors stopped him.
Hence, claiming that I have "hijacked" the article and am somehow a problematic editor is frankly preposterous and is simply a tactic to divert attention from Thor Lives' own disruptive actions and total disregard for policy and consensus building. Similarly, his claim that he is being threatened with a ban simply for "complain[ing] about the quality of the article" is again flagrantly (and, I believe, deliberately) ignoring the real reason why sanctions are being sought against him, which have been laid out ever so clearly. Once again, he is knowingly playing the innocent, presumably in the hope that this well help him to evade sanctions so that he can go right back to his disruptive editing ways. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:01, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Several new points (before I leave.)

This is quickly becoming a wiki version of "Gresham's Law," that the bad will always drive out the good. (In other words, it appears I will be forced out.)

After Midnightblueowl hijacked Germanic Neopaganism, I started to make extensive edits on Odinism. Notice the wide variety of sources used. Notice also the neutrality of the aricle. Midnightblueowl in his Heathenry article mentions Odinists only to discredit them as "racists,"(the word Americans use), but not all Odinists are white separatists.

Midnightblueowl claims he used neutral academic sources only. Again, because he is not widely read in the field, he seems not to know that virtually ALL of his sources are pagan professors (including me.) Snook, Strmiska, Harvey, Blain, and so forth are pagans. Because professors tend to be liberal, they are all leftist. For proper balance, he must use other sources.

--ThorLives (talk) 22:18, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Again, I've asked that you please use female pronouns when referring to me; in doing the precise opposite, you are quite clearly setting out to annoy and offend, once again reflecting a total lack of respect for your fellow Wikipedians. Of course I am aware that many of the academics operating within Pagan studies are practicing Pagans (including Snook, Strmiska, Harvey, and Blain) as all make that clear within their publications, and the fact that I have included virtually every academic study on Heathenry ever published in the sources of the Heathenry article testifies to the fact that I am fairly well read within that field (it should be noted that in no way, shape, or form has ThorLives demonstrated anywhere near the same level of academic reading). Similarly, if you check my edits, you will see that in no way did I mention Odinists merely to call them "racists"; your claim to that effect is demonstrably false.
Moreover, if you want editors to compare the articles on Heathenry (new religious movement) and Odinism for themselves, then I would be happy for them to do so. They will see that the former is informative and well constructed; the latter poorly written and messy. The former is based on an exhaustive use of almost all academic publications on the subject; the latter has been put together using whatever unreliable references ThorLives happens to favour. The former is a useful article that will benefit those interested in the subject; the latter is simply a coatrack. Perhaps most importantly, I believe that the former will be recognised as a Good Article for its adherence to Wikipedia guidelines and policies; the latter makes a total mockery of those, serving simply as a platform for ThorLives' own perspective on the religious movement to which he belongs. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:53, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Midnightblueowl wrote: As for ThorLives' claim that he has been cited by me, I can see that not a single one of the academics whom I have referenced in the Heathenry article fit the profile of a 65-year old male Odinist who works as a university professor. Not one

Trying to "out me" here? Is that not a violation of the wiki rules you are always citing?

As for the "65-year old [sic] male Odinist who works as a university professor," I confess I altered some details to protect myself. (Age, gender, or both?) Midnightblueowl has engaged in threatening behavior, so I cannot chance that he would use information about my identity to attack my books or my reputation.

I have never tried to have him banned. I have never threatened him. His behavior (as this banning attempt demonstrates) has been belligerent.

Indeed, perhaps the prudent thing would be for me to leave wikipedia.

Cheers! --ThorLives (talk) 22:33, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Erm... no, I'm not trying to out you nor threaten you. At no point did I state that "You are Mr X", "I think that you are Mrs Y", or "all signs point to you being Mr P" and I most certainly didn't say that "I'm going to find you off-Wikipedia and harass you there by tarnishing your reputation". All I stated was that the claims that you made – that you were a 65 year old university professor with a PhD whose publications were cited in the Heathenry article – were demonstrably not true because none of the cited authors fitted that description, and that moreover your wider actions have cast strong doubt on your claims to having any substantial academic background at all. In effect, you were making false claims in order to bolster your credibility in the eyes of other Wikipedia editors, and I called you out on it. That's not outing. Maybe in the 'real world' you really are an author, perhaps writing Odinist books and articles in non-academic contexts, and perhaps even being something of a notable within the Odinist community. If so, good for you. I have absolutely no interest in harassing or upsetting you as a fellow human being in any way, shape or form; my sole focus has been in preventing you from disruptive editing here at Wikipedia so that the encyclopedia can progress and improve under the care of constructive contributors. Outside of the encyclopedia, it's a different ballpark, and a different game. Midnightblueowl (talk) 23:01, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Unblock request from Againstdisinformation

User was unblocked and posted a rename request, which was acted on.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:30, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Againstdisinformation (talk · contribs)

After consulting with Drmies, I decided to post here the unblock request that was sent by Againstdisinformation via UTRS. Since this is a very complicated case, I want other admins to comment on the possibility of un-blocking. Vanjagenije (talk) 22:01, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Why do you believe you should be unblocked?

I was blocked at 09:32, 6 October 2015?by JzG for reinstating 2 pictures of a public figure he removed from my talk page. I recognize now that my reaction was ill-advised and I should have asked an explanation before. My only defense is that the pictures were placed on my talk page by another user: "I love the contrast between what she really looks like, and what she looks like in the Wikipedia infobox photo.-- Toddy1 (talk) 14:44, 5 September 2015 (UTC)" I left the pictures on my talk page because I found them funny and I had no idea that it was againstWP:BLP since in over a month no one visiting my talk page (including administrators) ever complained. After reading carefully WP:BLP, I now realize that I should have removed them instantly. My violation was not willful and, if you unblock me, I can guarantee that, in the future, I will be very vigilant in ensuring that I am not in violation of WP:BLP, nor of any other WP policy for that matter. JzG also mentioned that my username was objectionable, and I agree to change it as soon as I am unblocked.

If you are unblocked, what articles do you intend to edit?

Science, ancient Greece, current affairs

Why do you think there is a block currently affecting you? If you believe it's in error, tell us how.

I am currently blocked for a violation of WP:BLP, which I fully recognize, but was not aware of at the time (2 pictures of a public figure on my talk page). My sense of humor and derision has also earned me a bad name. JzG visited my talk page to warn me after I made the comment "I won't accuse him of working for the CIA. Even though their standards of recruitment are not very high, I don't think they have sunken so low as to hire any paranoid crackpot who has fallen prey to conspiracy theories." in response to Trappedinburnley who had written: "your previous posts have made me think you likely work (directly or indirectly) for RT". I recognize this is beyond the pale and I will not do it again. I tend to be sarcastic when I am under attack, a behavior I will try to rein in. Againstdisinformation, originally in UTRS appeal #14446

  • Have you seen indications of AD's POV in their editing, or only in their commentary? BMK (talk) 04:00, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Gotta do the ping again, cause I screwed it up @Drmies: BMK (talk) 04:00, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
  • No worries. Well, I can give you an answer you can't do anything with: in the case of the birthday debate, their edits and comments were clearly POV-driven (in my opinion), but they were also right. In my opinion. I remember now I also looked at some edits in that TV network article, but I can't remember if I sided with AD, or his opponents, or with both. Drmies (talk) 04:19, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
  • OK, it's in Talk:RT (TV network)/Archive 6. At issue was a. a qualification for one of the people frequently appearing on RT (TV network) and b. a list of guests that appeared on that station. Yes, I am convinced that AD's edits in those articles was POV driven, and, at the same time, in keeping with policy. Drmies (talk) 04:28, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
  • I checked this link and was surprised by the title (Wikipedia Mouthpiece of the State Department) that was chosen by Againstdisinformation to start the thread. Why State Department? He did not explain. Is it somehow related to the worker from the State Department used as a target for his jokes, which has been the reason for his block by JzG? My very best wishes (talk) 03:49, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Hey admins, come on now. ArbCom is exciting, I know, but we need a few of you to weigh in here. Don't make me post a Help Me template, or start pinging you in groups of ten, organized alphabetically. Againstdisinformation deserves their day in court, and they got it, but no one showed up for work. Drmies (talk) 03:00, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
...or they read it at some point but weren't compelled to act. He has been writing responses with Iryna Harpy which may come into play. No one from the community has given either a Support unblock or Keep blocked to start us off.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 03:42, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
Oh, I know some of those lazy bones need more prodding, which is why I'm going to start tweeting out doctored passport photos of all admins. Yes, Berean, no response usually means no unblock, but I wish someone would just look over the edits and the issues and confirm one way or another, explicitly. Drmies (talk) 04:37, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
If any admins are interested in my opinion, I have a truly appalling talent for opining until the cows come home. Given that relatively sane people find non-specific walls of text to be counterproductive, I'd prefer to wait until some more admins drop by and ask specific questions directly relevant to the unblock request. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:13, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
Well, you pointed out some behavioral things that I really haven't gotten into, and that's useful. I hope AD will take that to heart--that would be helpful for admins considering making a decision here. Drmies (talk) 04:37, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I'll start it off. Looked at the block log, looked through the edit history, and (sigh) I'm willing to unblock on a very short leash. That photo thing was atrocious, but I'm in an AGF and all that kind of mood right now, so what the heck. If AD steps over the line again, however, I'll indef him myself. Katietalk 05:23, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

I think JzG's summary still seems to apply. Leashes can open up a can of worms, but if you are willing to supervise it, then I'd be open to an unblock. If you aren't I'd recommend against. Prodego talk 05:53, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
If you are going to unblock, Againstdisinformation should know if starting a discussion like that one ("a mouthpiece") would be regarded as disruption and result in block. That is what he usually does. This may not be outright forbidden by policies, but result in enormous waste of time for others. My very best wishes (talk) 13:43, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
I am telling this because main problem of Againstdisinformation is not their POV or BLP, but ability to fuel long, unproductive and highly divisive discussions. That is what makes him/her "net negative" for the project. I am not telling he/she does it on purpose, but it does not really matter. My very best wishes (talk) 15:13, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Katie, I appreciate your good mood. I don't know if it would be helpful if AD is kept on for instance a 1R restriction; I don't think edit warring was ever the real problem. If I had to guess, I'd say that it's the lengthy talk page discussions that test editors' patience. (OK, I think I guessed that pretty good.) At the same time, AD gets a fair bit of flak from other editors, so I don't think we should muzzle AD. Still, some sort of "make doubly sure that you're not turning the talk page into a forum", coupled with an injunction to be less verbose (don't know how to quantify or legislate that...), that might make for a workable situation. Thanks again, Drmies (talk) 01:26, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • The incident with the younger/older pictures should be carefully examined. Basically, any human being is prone to be older in real life than on her passport photo. This is another argument about infoboxes: the choice of an unique picture is often misleading. Nevertheless, comparing a best choice for the younger picture with a not so random choice of the older one can hardly be described as flat neutral. Moreover Againstdisinformation should have perceived that such comparison will appear as heavy loaded in the context (the target is not an anonymous passerby, but a high ranking person in the US). The next time such a bait is posted by someone else on her talkpage, we can assume that Againstdisinformation (may be renamed as CallMeAnynameYouWant) will defer the incident to some dramaboard as yet another bullying attempt, instead of taking the bait. Pldx1 (talk) 10:21, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
@Pldx1: No, AD was not baited, and the post by the original editor was within a relevant context (i.e., AD was pushing contentious descriptions of another famous person in an article that simply wasn't warranted; that is, AD's description was WP:WEASEL). Please see my comment on AD's talk page here, and note the original context in which it was presented along with discussions here. Compare this to what AD redacted it to for weeks here. You've jumped into a discussion about an editor who is better characterised as being a 'baiter', not a 'baitee'. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:19, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
@Iryna Harpy: Horses are jumping. But there are so many horses. Nevertheless, I cannot deny that, in this discussion, I have jumped from reading to writing. Best regards. Pldx1 (talk) 09:03, 21 November 2015 (UTC). Follow up, answering a "thanks" ping from User:Iryna Harpy. I parse your comment as saying that posting the two pictures comparison was legitimate and "within the relevant context" while receiving the same two pictures comparison was a blattant violation of human decency (and of our policies towards Living Persons). My comment was only: there are horses that are surprised. Pldx1 (talk) 09:48, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

After reviewing all opinions given here and at User talk:Againstdisinformation, and relevant diffs, I'm leaning toward unblocking. Seams that the main reason AD was blocked is not his main space edits, but the way he interacts with other editors (which is quite irritating, I agree). On the other hand, I don't see any such large issue that deserves indefinite block without trying a longer (week, month) block first (he had three previous blocks, the longest of which was 48 hours). Of course, I don't think he should be unblocked unconditionally. The issues that were given as reason for his block are real and important, but I would like to give him the second chance to edit without those issues. If he continues with such behavior, he should be blocked again. I am going to unblock him soon unless somebody has some specific reason against unblocking. Vanjagenije (talk) 22:31, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

How do you intend to ensure these "long, unproductive, and highly divisive discussions" that My very best wishes mentions do not continue? I have seen no comments from Againstdisinformation that suggests they will stop. Prodego talk 05:19, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
I intend to offer him unblock, but under condition that he stops such behavior. If he continues, it is easy to block him again. Vanjagenije (talk) 11:12, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Here is the thing. If at least one person comes to this noticeboard and tells: "I was able to positively collaborate with Againstdisinformation on subject X and ask to unblock him to continue this collaboration", then it would be a serious argument to unblock. But I do not see it. My very best wishes (talk) 14:14, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
MVBW makes a valid point on this issue. AD has pre-baited so many genuinely AGF editors (many of whom probably don't know that this unblock is under consideration) that it's undoubtedly going to set up immediate tensions. Honestly, AD's exhaust tactics drove at least one editor to behave uncharacteristically and nearly get blocked himself. As regards mentoring, I don't think Kate has any idea of what she's volunteering herself for. I haven't come across an editor who agrees that they were doing the wrong thing and will never do it again, only to start the same disruptive behavioural patterns simultaneously on another talk page. Any gains in allowing AD to edit again will be negated by the number of editors who will step away from editing the same articles as AD or run the risk of having themselves blocked/sanctioned simply because they had enough of the tl;dr and exhaust they encountered before he was blocked. You can't undo a reputation... particularly as it is still so fresh in everyone's memory. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:04, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
I can support the unblock and work with Vanjagenije to supervise AD, but I can't do all the supervision myself right now. I'm still here on an intermittent basis for the next couple of weeks due to real life and I just can't predict when I'll be able to show up. I want to be clear that two of my conditions for unblock are absolutely no BLP violations and a username change. The discussions have to stop too, but I'll leave it to Vanjagenije to outline those conditions. Katietalk 01:34, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Againstdisinformation asked me to post his comment on AN, so I am giving the diff. This does not seem to be consistent with his edit summary here in response to notice by JzG. [25]. My very best wishes (talk) 05:05, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Since there is no admin explicitly opposing unblock, I decided to offer him a conditional unblock. I am willing to supervise his edits for some time after unblocking, and KrakatoaKatie can help. Vanjagenije (talk) 12:55, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

WHAT IS INAPPROPRIATE ABOUT THE USERNAME? How is it okay to say that username is inappropriate? How is it wrong to have a POV? Please cite any relevant guidelines. This sounds like McCarthyism. Very unhealthy for Wikipedia. Not ok. SageRad (talk) 13:07, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Just to be clear, my comment refers to the line in AgainstDisinformation's request for unblocking where they wrote, "JzG also mentioned that my username was objectionable, and I agree to change it as soon as I am unblocked." This is what i am questioning. Behavior questions are behavior questions, but how is it wrong to have a username that professes to be "against disinformation"? SageRad (talk) 07:43, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
This has been discussed with another admin (Jehochman) and should not be a problem given that Againstdisinformation said himself about the username: "that was a mistake I have almost immediately regretted. I made that unfortunate choice because I was outraged..." (see discussion here). So, why did he object so strongly to changing his username right now, and why he is doing this? My very best wishes (talk) 16:23, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
In fact, i do not think that AgainstDisinformation did object so strongly to changing their username right now, from what i see at the two links you provided. I see the user actually willing to change their username, but wishing to be able to choose something they like, and the second choice was declined. I even commented on the user's talk page after seeing that, and seeing a misreading of the situation. I think it's really important to be accurate and to treat people with respect, and to respect that this user is a certain type of editor who appears to be standing up for representing reality on Wikipedia. What i read here about the username issue is quite telling to me:

I chose my username, an admittedly ill-advised choice, to make my purpose clear: free Wikipedia from dubious assertions that one can read in the media but which have no place in an encyclopedia. I never sought to “right great wrongs”. Instead, I have always strived to preserve Wikipedia’s neutrality and reliability. I have to stress that in all edits I made; my “POV” finally prevailed. I edited Muammar Gaddafi and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad without encountering much opposition. However, I ran into trouble as soon as I started editing articles related to either Russia or Ukraine. I faced fierce opposition when I removed from Yulia Tymoshenko the false statement that the ECHR had recognized that she had been tortured. No one now disputes that I was right. Then in another article’s talk page (which I am not allowed to mention), I contended that we cannot use the fact that a journalist has been murdered on the birthday of a country’s ruler to insinuate that either he ordered the murder or it was a present for him. I was then accused for the first time to be paid by that country for editing. I admit that, after that, my comments were rather sarcastic and it resulted in a ban from the topic. However Drmies agreed with me and the innuendo is now removed. The last edit I made which ultimately resulted in my indefinite block was about RT (TV network). I edited away the assertion, made in a list of RT’s guests, that Nigel Farage was a “Putin’s admirer”. This started an enormous controversy on the article’s talk page which eventually led to my indefinite block. I have strictly no feeling about either Farage or Putin and it should be observed that, here too, my “POV” prevailed and “Putin’s admirer” has been removed. Drmies could confirm, having participated to the discussions about the last two articles I mention.

... and so on. This is a particular sort of user that i can identify with, and whom i think is valuable at Wikipedia but who runs up against a lot of friction from a certain other sort of Wikipedia user. In my last 8 months, i have experienced situations quite a bit like AgainstDisinformation is seeing right now, all the way up to and including an ArbCom case. It's not been fun, but i have learned a lot. There is a concept of counterwill which explains an innate resistance to a feeling of being coerced, and not wanting to submit just for submission's sake. That is the problem i have when someone uses that overused phrase here "drop the stick" -- because (1) i'm not a dog, and (2) if i were a dog, i'm not your dog. I understand reasonable requests and am 100% willing to discuss any point at length, but the exercise of control of an authority nature is not automatically to be obeyed. This is useful in human society, as it is a natural immune response to prevent rise of authoritarianism in any domain. So i am asking us to all take a few steps back, and think about this a bit differently. Hopefully my experience can ease another editor's experience. SageRad (talk) 17:23, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Just a point, Wikipedia:DROPTHESTICK has nothing to do with dogs, it has to do with beating a dead horse with the stick. -- GB fan 17:42, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
@SageRad. Proudly telling that "my POV prevailed" (as a proof that "I was right") is a terrible thing. What had actually happened? Some contributors, including myself simply run away from all pages where Againstdisinformation fueled such divisive and extremely unproductive discussions. My very best wishes (talk) 18:27, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Notice the quotes around "POV" in the editor's comment. It sounds like the editor was actually removing POV bias and innuendo in the articles in question. I've not checked it out myself, to verify, but the editor's use of quotes around "POV" makes the difference. It sounds like the editor was doing some good quality fact-checking and in the end, other editors agreed the article was made better. It does not seem like the mark of a POV pusher who disregards facts, but more of an editor who has a point of view that leads them to check out some content that seem suspect, and to actually remove POV that was pushed there by others. However, i respect what you report about your experience, as well. I will look at some of the dialogue in question when i get some time. SageRad (talk) 18:40, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
I agree that he removed well-sourced and significant POVs and facts on several pages. However, he was never blocked for doing this, contrary to his statement quoted by you above. My very best wishes (talk) 19:56, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
The crux of the matter is that I don't believe AD actually understands what he was blocked for, therefore why should he be unblocked as if he'd learnt some sort of behavioural problem lesson when he doesn't know what his behavioural problem is? All of his tl;dr discussions since he's been given access to his own talk page for this review are reiterations of how he's been 'vindicated'; why didn't someone tell him that the use of the images on his own talk page was inappropriate (as if it's the central focus of the block); why is everyone still persecuting me; etc. continues. I'm convinced that his brand of WP:NOTGETTINGIT is a WP:COMPETENCE problem, and that he's completely immersed in righting great wrongs. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:40, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Well, out of curiosity, i went to the Yulia Tymoshenko article and looked in the history. I found seven edits by the former "AgainstDisinformation" who is now Γνῶθι σεαυτόν : [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] and this talk page section, this one, and this one where the editor in question has commented.

I found nothing bad in the edit summaries. I find very friendly tone generally in the talk page. I find former AgainstDisinformation in this article to have behaved well, as far as i can tell. Now i only took 20 minutes to look, so i could be wrong or missing something, and the issues with this editor might be in other articles that i didn't look at, but from this brief inquiry, i have seen the editor appears to be working hard, for the benefit of the encyclopedia, and actually very impressive to me for a new user. I don't see why the negative talk about them must continue. SageRad (talk) 22:09, 23 November 2015 (UTC) I must add, however, that don't know the topic area at all, so there may be subtleties i might have missed, or otherwise not see what the problem was. I was looking more at tone and manner, and whether the editor appeared to be cooperatively editing or contentious. SageRad (talk) 22:14, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Now i've again gotten curious -- what was it about this editor formerly known as "AgainstDisinformation" that so many people seem to have it out for them? I looked at this ANI case in which the user was really treated badly. Holy crap, what the hell is going on there? It looks like the user brought an issue to ANI that was really valid, and ended up getting railroaded and brought under a ban for bringing it up. The level of kangaroo court sort of stuff going on there is astounding. The user, Γνῶθι σεαυτόν, brought up a serious issue about an article that had a problem of unsourced innuendo against a whole country essentially and they ended up being banned? This sounds disturbing. It's like "we'll take care of the problem" sort of language. So i go and look at the article Anna Politkovskaya and see the talk page discussion about the death and Putin's birthday and i see former AgainstDisinformation being really civil to begin with. There's an obvious problem with the article and the editor explains it well. There is this exchange:

Does anyone realize that this is libel pure and simple and that, in the extremely unlikely case Mr Putin decided to sue Wikimedia, he would very probably win in court? Againstdisinformation (talk) 23:14, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia No legal threats. One can be blocked for doing this. Back to the book by Felshinsky and Pribylovskiy, they mentioned this "coincidence" also in the introduction to the book as highly significant. But it probably belongs to another page, Assassination of Anna Politkovskaya. My very best wishes (talk) 17:06, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

You see the disconnect here? AgainstDisinformation was saying -- obviously, to me -- that including this innuendo in the article is libel against Putin and then then MVBW responds by implying that AgainstDisinformation was making a legal threat against Wikipedia editors and says "One can be blocked for doing this"... the very gaping disconnect of meanings here is astounding. AgainstDisinformation then pings MVBW and explains the disconnect of understanding and asks a question to which MVBW never replies:

@My very best wishes: Where do you see a legal threat on my part? Do you think I am Mr. Putin? I am just saying that in a court of law this would be considered libel, I am not threatening any one with legal action, since I have nothing to do with the case and it would be quite impossible for me to sue (in fact, you know all this perfectly well). Now, is it honest to allege an imaginary violation of Wikipedia:No legal threats on my part in order to justify your threat of blocking me? With regard to Felshinsky and Pribylovskiy, you also know that their reputation as historians is questionable as is their objectivity. Againstdisinformation (talk) 20:19, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

And then thankfully, Drmies comes along and applies the same common sense as AgainstDisinformation was doing, to remove the content that is conspiracy theory innuendo, and writes:

My very best wishes, I'm going to remove the phrase from this article; not from the longer one since I haven't looked at it. Any editor who wants to restore it needs to do so with an expansion of some sort in the text that explains why it is relevant. It will probably require a hell of a lot of text, so my suggestion is not to mess with it. Libel, maybe not--innuendo, that it is. Drmies (talk) 19:29, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank Lute88 makes a troll accusation at AgainstDisinformation:

Why do I smell this? - --Lute88 (talk) 22:21, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

and then again:

Againstdisinformation has been pushing the proRussian POV envelope here for some time. And there has been recent media coverage of some professional (and paid too) POV promoters on Wiki. Just being vigilant...

Anyway, what i see here is that the user formerly known as AgainstDisinformation acted with reasonable manners even when being insulted in various ways, and then appears to have been railroaded into this ban, and then forced to change username and grovel a bit to be unblocked here. That's not a good picture of justice or encouraging good editors to do good work, in my reckoning. I'm troubled by all this. It's not respectful. What's going on here? How did AgainstDisinformation get banned in the first place, and then their nose rubbed in shit as a "disciplining" measure to learn to "correct their behavior" etc... from the two articles i've looked at so far, i see the editor acting fairly well, and getting railroaded and banned. What's going on at Wikipedia? Why does it feel so contentious? I don't think this editor brought the trouble. SageRad (talk) 07:25, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit request backlog

The list of conflict-of-interest requested edits is at an all-time high of 130 requests; also, the list of semi-protected edit requests is also abnormally high, currently at 101. Any assistance in clearing the backlog is highly appreciated. There's another reason for urgency: while some PR editors initially comply with Wikipedia's COI editing protocol by making a talk page request, after weeks of silence they assume that their edits must meet our guidelines owing to the lack of objections, and make the edit themselves. Closer scrutiny by the community would probably have disallowed such changes. Many of the articles with pending COI edit requests are already littered with promotional material, and in the wake of the Orangemoody scandal, we should be doing all we can to clean up. Thanks, Altamel (talk) 02:49, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

WP:ACE2015 MassMessage

Hey all,

I'm planning on sending out the mass-message sometime next week, once the voting for ArbCom has started. IF anyone wants to opt-out, please do so ASAP at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2015/MassMessage/OptOut. The message is at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2015/MassMessage - please let me know if this can be improved at all! For the Election Committee, Mdann52 (talk) 07:19, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Challenging ISIL community sanction

I motion to challenge WP:GS/SCW&ISIL with respect to ISIL in general, and the November 2015 Paris attacks article and directly related articles in particular. These community-imposed sanctions were progressively expanded starting from, if I understand things correctly, arguably-related ArbCom-imposed Israel-Palestinian sanctions, first [Syria] and then to ISIL, by allowing the "broadly construed" specification to let discussions with little participation ratify the broadening of scope.

I am not sure this really qualifies as "community consensus" for community-authorized sanctions, or even if community-authorized discretionary sanctions are a reasonable thing, but even if it does and they are, I believe this claimed consensus can be challenged on the grounds that less than a dozen editors formed it, while on Talk:November 2015 Paris attacks a comparable number of editors impugned it or objected to the application of the sanctions.

In fact, this sequence of events happened on the article's talk page:

Although the various points against the sanctions (at least on the particular article) were repeatedly stated in some of the above-linked diffs, I will make a summary:

  • The community had created a decent working dynamic on the article without 1RR enforcement
  • This is a current-events article with issues that are not primarily Syria and ISIL-related
  • The potential for block with two reverts may have a chilling effect, when it's hard to follow the fast and often spurious edits
  • Almost all editors involved at this point would be unable to revert without risking an immediate block, except for drive-by editors
  • It's not an article among the ones in contention from the original and subsequently widely expanded ArbCom case

It is certainly due to my bias, but the points for the sanctions I could read basically amounted to:

  • They were approved before

Therefore, I ask you to consider the following two questions:

  1. Shall WP:GS/SCW&ISIL continue to apply unchanged on articles like November 2015 Paris attacks where there are arguably exceptional circumstances and a locally shared opposition to actively applying them?
  2. Shall the current "broadly constructed" scope of these sanctions undergo new scrutiny and possible narrowing, considering it was previously expanded with little community input?
  3. Shall the sanctions continue to exist at all?

My use of emphasis above is to underline the salient points of this motion as I recognize it is a relatively long read. LjL (talk) 18:39, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Comment - the WP:GS/SCW&ISIL sanctions ARE NOT related with WP:ARBPIA. There is similarity in concept, but that is it.GreyShark (dibra) 18:44, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
I thought, by reading the archived discussion, that the Syrian sanctions were created because there was uncertainty as to whether the ARBPIA sanctions applied to the Syrian war (they were applied in that way, but then successfully challenged). If I'm mistaken, can you clarify? LjL (talk) 18:53, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
I believe that to be correct. What it seems happened was gradual de facto broadening of scope, caused by the slippery "broadly construed"-type language that is often used. Some administrators originally applied the ARBPIA sanctions to Syrian Civil War stuff, thinking that stuff related in a "broadly construed" manner. This became confusing, so ArbCom established a temporary 30 day sanctions regime specifically for the Syrian Civil War, which was then replaced with community sanctions that mirrored the ARBPIA remedy. Following this, with the rise of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, and their entry into other fields, administrators began applying the SCW community sanctions to all ISIL-related articles, on the basis of a "broadly construed" connection to the Syrian Civil War. For this reason, I requested a clarification at AN, whereby the relevant administrators confirmed that they believed that this linkage was correct. RGloucester 18:59, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
That is my understanding, too. I read that the first community discussion was started "to determine whether there is consensus to continue the restrictions in effect as community-based restrictions", the restrictions in effect being the impromptu 30-day ones made by ArbCom after the ARBPIA sanctions were deemed to have been incorrectly applied as the disputes did not "fit the general category of Arab-Israeli disputes", so it seems to me the restrictions are very directly related. LjL (talk) 19:06, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm one of the people behind the installations of Syrian Civil War sanctions. Originally, the community demanded a sanctioned regime for Syrian Civil War articles and some administrator incorrectly applied ARBPIA, even though there is no direct relation. Then i asked to clarify this and answer the demand of the community by creating SCW sanctions and not trying to bend other sanctions. Syrian Civil War sanctions were then initiated following a community motion, with a wide consensus. Later, without my involvement another group of users expanded the SCW sanctions also to ISIL with the intervention of ArbCom. This is how SCW&ISIL sanction regime was created. If you ask me - it works great: much less edit-warring as a result.GreyShark (dibra) 22:10, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
But possibly also much less editing, at least on articles like the one in question where sanctions can have a chilling effect. This is my greatest concern. LjL (talk) 22:12, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

A similar problem is happening on Metrojet_Flight_9268. There is less and less controversy over ISIL, with pretty much everyone saying they are bad. The exceptions are punk trouble maker editors and/or johadists who come along and put pro-ISIL propaganda in. Any post I've made saying the sanctions apply should only be interpreted as affirming their existence, not as necessarily my support for them continuing. Legacypac (talk) 00:33, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Support pulling back on over-application of the "discretionary sanctions" that are "broadly constructed," as prescribed in the WP:GS/SCW&ISIL guidelines. With no disrespect to the original folks who implemented them – the fact that we cannot even agree on whether it is an Arbcom or WP:AN edict should give us a clue that the entire situation is not very well understood or constructed. Also, only a small number of users were involved with that discussion that has massive impact across EN.WP's 5 million articles. We should open up the discussion for better context.
A summary of the main conflict as described above:
  • For breaking news articles, it is extremely problematic to have the pall of the discretionary sanctions hanging over the page, which amounts to a one revert rule (1RR) being imposed on an article in flux. Whether it is intended or not, it creates a low tolerance, "assume bad faith" climate where it is very easy to accidentally run afoul of the guidelines, and wind up as a user block.
  • If we consider the November 2015 Paris attacks page, which was the #2 most visited page last week, you get lots of visitors and even returning editors. You also have a number of admins monitoring the page. The vast majority of the article is not about the Islamic State per se, and instead hosts a lot of experienced Wikipedians trying to sift fact from fiction in the news cycle. Things were going fine, until the discretionary sanctions template was put at the top, and then a flurry of accusations about 1RR started to fly. It turned into a wiki circular firing squad.
  • Out of WP:COMMONSENSE, I removed the template and proposed that we do away with the hair-trigger application of WP:GS/SCW&ISIL. There was generally positive response from the editors on that page that it was removed. There was another exchange of adding the template to Talk, and subsequent removal by me.
  • That's we are now. I offer that it's a very bad mismatch to try to impose remedies suited for long form historical articles onto fast-moving, obliquely-related current events articles. I'm assuming good faith by believing that there was a decent rationale (with limited scope) for the discretionary sanctions, but I think this is a classic example of Hard cases make bad law, and we should have a chance to fix the overly broad application of this. -- Fuzheado | Talk 18:18, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
Two points. First of all, there is no question of "agreement". These are community sanctions, not ArbCom sanctions, even though ArbCom was briefly involved at the start. That's crystal clear. Secondly, you must understand that we are not a newspaper. Our job here is not to write articles as if we were covering breaking news. All of our articles should be in a "long form historical" style. Slowing down editing on a controversial current events article is something to be applauded, not rejected. Finally, I wonder whether you oppose the 1RR or the discretionary sanctions, or both? Perhaps the 1RR could be pulled back, whilst maintaining the discretionary sanctions. RGloucester 21:04, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - It's broadly construed, not constructed. That's the extent of my competence in this area, and of my contribution to this discussion. (talk) 19:49, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose removing the sanctions. Yes, the presence of discretionary sanctions and the 1RR restriction might slow down editing. That's a good thing. Per RGloucester's comment we are not a news wire service, we're an encyclopedia. We can approach the subject calmly and thoughtfully. And the restrictions will prevent the usual nonsense that occurs with high traffic, current event articles. Volunteer Marek  06:56, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
And, uh, to try and argue that this article is NOT Syria or ISIS related is... um.... disingenuous, to put it nicely. Volunteer Marek  06:57, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose As per VM. The argument that it is preventing rapid updates on current events is not a bad thing. Likewise arguing that this is not Syria/ISIS related is... interesting to say the least. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:38, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose – Having thought about it more, I have to oppose any proposal to pull back the community sanctions (1RR and DS) in this area. Frankly, this topic area is one of the most fraught on Wikipedia. The sanctions have shown to be effective in preventing disruption across SCW and ISIL articles for years. We should thank the administrators who have worked to quicly enforce these sanctions, as well. There is no reason to provide an exception for this one article, which is ISIL-related, and attracts the same kind of controversy as at all the SCW & ISIL pages. Pulling back the sanctions across all SCW and ISIL pages would undoubtedly be detrimental. I imagine that if the sanctions were pulled back, we'd end up with an ArbCom case for this topic area in future, and that's something we want to avoid, no? I have worked on plenty of articles under DS and 1RR, and have never had any problems contributing. As I said above, we are not a newspaper, and have no need to be rapidly updating content as if we were. Encouraging talk page discussion, encouraging editors to think about what they add to such an article, that's a good thing. We want verifiable historical analysis, not every little bit of yellow press. For all these reasons, I must certainly oppose any revocation of the authorisation of these sanctions. RGloucester 15:20, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose – it's been working fine as-is. Don't reinvent the wheel. (talk) 21:51, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
These can't be "chilling effects" since "chilling effects" refer to ... effects. What you are linking to is just reminders to editors not to edit war. Since you've been reverting and edit warring on that article like crazy I can see how you'd find that objectionable. Volunteer Marek  07:38, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Report me then. I am the third most prolific contributor to the article and I strongly suspect most editors respect the work I have done there. I'm not sure the same can be said about you, sending people more chilling notices because (sorry, I mean "shortly after", who am I to imply causal links?) they removed the sanctions template again with the agreement of many other editors (even though you promptly re-added it). You have previously accused me of having a WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude, but I'm not entirely sure how you can affirm that while keeping a straight face. LjL (talk) 15:37, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree with User:Fuzheado and User:LjL. There is no evidence that these sanctions are needed or have any beneficial effect. Considering the emotive nature of the subject, editing there has been remarkably collegial over the past week. On general principles, the idea of accepting this sort of mission creep from a body with such a poor reputation as ArbCom has, is a terrible one. Wikipedia is not a police state, and should not be encouraged to become one. --John (talk) 11:31, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose the motion. The SCW&ISIL sanctions are an excellent tool to reduce edit-warring and stabilize articles, as already proven in the past.GreyShark (dibra) 18:49, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Requesting help with this matter, as User:Volunteer Marek is "totally not causing chilling effects" on me by sending me this sort of notice about an article that didn't even have a 1RR warning template anywhere, in a totally WP:POINTY fashion (I did self-revert as requested, by the way, but I cannot accept this bullying - I'm doing nothing wrong). Further explanation at this talk page section. LjL (talk) 21:34, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
    • What exactly is anyone suppose to "help" you with? The fact that I'm warning you - which is doing you a favor because I could just report you - again for reverting repeatedly on the article? On both the Paris-attacks related articles you have been reverting people left and right, in flagrant breach of 1RR in order to basically enforce your WP:OWN version. Also saying that the article "didn't even have a 1RR warning template anywhere" is disingenuous (i.e. its an attempt at WP:WIKILAWYERING and WP:GAME, almost as silly as the claims that these articles have nothing to do with Syria and ISIS (when the text under dispute is specifically about Syrian refugees) - you are perfectly aware that discretionary sanctions and 1RR are in force on these articles because... wait for it, wait for it, wait for it: You filed this freakin' motion!. Are you really trying to pretend that you did not know that 1RR applies to an article for which you're challenging the existence of the 1RR restriction? Seriously?  Volunteer Marek  21:56, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
      • Marek, in that particular instance you are most definitely gaming the system. Drop it, please: consensus was well against you for inclusion of that material before you began lawyering to get your way. - Sitush (talk) 21:57, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
        • What are you talking about? How am I "gaming the system"? I am disagreeing with LjL. Disagreeing with someone is NOT "gaming the system". Volunteer Marek  22:39, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
          • Umpteen people have disagreed with you about the Polish issue in umpteen threads. Certainly, it is true that WP:CONSENSUS is not a vote but it seems to me that after several "losses", you then opted to lawyer towards your goal. The thread here appears to be the pertinent one. Dammit, even you acknowledge that you got the articles mixed up - many of us have done that, no problem, but to then lawyer about it as a means to remove the material just seems weird. You said initially that the material was more useful in the very article where you have subsequently invoked these sanctions to remove it after failing to achieve that aim by other means. I can understand you getting the two mixed up, and you acknowledged it, but to then try to lawyer it in your favour just seems like gaming to me. Maybe it isn't, but that's how it looks. - Sitush (talk) 01:29, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
I did not "invoke the sanction" to remove it. The presence of the sanction and my opinions about the content are not related. Also, if by "umpteen" you mean ONE then yes. And obviously the issue here is that this is a recent events article which means that what was relevant at one point in time may not be relevant a few days later. But really, content issues are not the topic here. Volunteer Marek  04:01, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
You have been doing this removal at two articles, even though you thought it was valid at one per my diff. Numerous people have opposed you, which means more than ONE. - Sitush (talk) 09:39, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
            • This is what the consensus actually looks like (though I've selected some statements by the people involved but there were many more, as this has spanned several sections). Not wanting to bring the content dispute here, but third parties looking at this need to know how things stand in term of WP:IDHT, WP:DROPTHESTICK and WP:GAMING: Volunteer Marek removes statements against staggering consensus, and when I reinstate them (without even removing his further integrations at all), he asks me to self-revert because of claimed 1RR violation. LjL (talk) 02:02, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
                • You filed this motion to remove the 1RR restriction on the article. You then hijacked your own thread by asking for "help" (not sure what that is, looks like either a canvassing for reverts or a request for a spurious block) in a specific situation. This sort of makes it clear that you really don't care about the 1RR restriction per se but are rather trying to find a way to circumvent it in this particular instance so that you can enforce your WP:OWN version of the article through edit warring. Which makes this motion a textbook example in making proposals in bad faith. Volunteer Marek  04:01, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
                  • 1) No, the motion was about the other article, not the "Reactions" article, which is even less tied to ISIL 2) WP:CANVASSING isn't a thing when reporting thing on the general forum for the relevant topic 3) I made it already clear in this motion that application of the sanctions on the particular article is in contention, so you're not discovering anything new 4) as to WP:OWN, you're the one still insisting to have it your way against clear consensus against you 5) I'm at my wits' end with you because you seem like a textbook example of hard-to-deal-with bad faith. LjL (talk) 15:26, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose per RGloucester and Volunteer Marek. If edit warring is still going on, then it is way too early to vacate these sanctions. The MMA topics are an excellent example of how sanctions can quiet down editors and really push them to discuss. There wasn't a time back in 2012-13 where not a week went by without a MMA complaing on AN or ANI. Regulars at those boards have barely heard a peep from them once sanctions were enforced. Blackmane (talk) 01:27, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Note - I don't know why I have made this motion given most of the people who were of the same opinion as me (and I know there were several) have steered very clear of it, but, for the record, this report is an example of the sort of non-constructive application of these overly strict rules that I'm worried about. The editor being reported is, quite obviously to anybody who has followed the evolution of the article involved, one of the top contributors and most constructive editors on it. Now he risks a block for reverting three unrelated, stupid edits. LjL (talk) 17:09, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
WP:OWNERSHIP of an article does not provide exemption from 1RR, and is in fact harmful to the development of articles. RGloucester 18:37, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Can someone please close the TP discussion

Much of the above results from Talk:Reactions_to_the_November_2015_Paris_attacks#Consensus_about_Polish_reactions and a similar discussion elsewhere. Volunteer Marek is still reinstating the POV tag. I have just reverted. Can someone please review that talk page section and close as they see fit, otherwise this could ping-pong in perpetuity. - Sitush (talk) 08:35, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

AfC submissions declined as blank or as a test

Most of the pages listed here are (speedy) deletion candidates. These are pages from Category:AfC submissions declined as blank and Category:AfC submissions declined as a test in draft or Wikipedia talk namespace.

  •[5]=1&ns[118]=1&doit=1 (talk) 19:53, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

They'll come up for G13 in a few months each. There's also a possibility (however small) that the editor returns and revises the page to make it useful. There are times where I've taken an incomprehensible mess and made it into a plausible draft, even based on not much more than the page's title. See User:Linguist111/sandbox for example. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:30, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Edit filter RfC

Just a heads up that an RfC is now underway regarding an addition to the edit filter guideline, taking on board some feedback from the RfC for the recently updated page. Opinions welcomed. Sam Walton (talk) 22:54, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Neelix Redirects - expediting closure and deletion

Two points:

1. There are 50,000 redirects listed here [33] with several thousand now in RfD. Various editors are working through the lists only to find many have been nominated already when one clicks on them. Given the consensus that many of these redirects are garbage, a number of admins have been speedy deleting redirects, but can we get some additional help quickly closing RfD's and deleting the redirects (even before the 7 days is up) so they go red on the lists. This way we don't have to spend time checking and rechecking ones that have been nominated and found to be deletion worthy?

2. I want to confirm that redirected talk pages should be speedy deleted. For example: [34]. Cause of that is the case, hundreds of Neelix redirected talk pages can be speedy deleted, which will shorten up the to do list for those of us sifting through his redirects. Legacypac (talk) 01:34, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there is work to be done but the RfDs have to be consulted because often two or three redirects are kept while the rest are deleted. This also might be best if this was posted on WP:AN where it's more likely to be seen by admins who can delete these redirects. Liz Read! Talk! 01:40, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
Yes, good point, which I was trying to make when I said "closing the RfDs". I'll move the post to AN. See also this discussion [35] at RfD Thanks Legacypac (talk) 01:46, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
I am against shoehorning the redirects into CSD categories that don't fit. That way lies a very dangerous precedent. If for these why not for others? Further, WP:RFD#HARMFUL explains, in effect, why we should not use WP:R3 for 6-year-old redirects. Just Chilling (talk) 03:03, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
He is redirect topic banned - can we use G5 creations of a blocked or banned user? Legacypac (talk) 05:12, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
No - that would only apply to redirects created after the ban was imposed. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 05:40, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
Neelix wins again!!!!!11112211lol111 Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 08:00, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
Just because you don't get everything you want this instant doesn't mean he won. Shrill ranting helps no one. It took him a decade to create this mess, it will take a few weeks to get rid of it and the more we do it systemically and in process, the more likely there won't be objections when we deal with the next editor (and there will be another editor). That said, we should follow process and list them in batches, probably by the page they are directed to. Note that the related changes page (Special:RecentChangesLinked/User:Anomie/Neelix_list) tells you what's the issue. I'd suggest splitting the page into smaller subpages of maybe 1000 or so and just culling them systematically. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:16, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
Sarcasm goes right over your head, Rick. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 08:28, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm used to the World's Oldest people article debates where "lack of notability is not a reason for deletion" is repeatedly somehow a keep vote. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:32, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
There are chunked lists out there and some of us are systematically going through them. I started with the most numerous per target (399!) and worked my way down, but now switched to some more by type of problem. Legacypac (talk) 08:49, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
Ok maybe a bot can go through and cut out the red links. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:35, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
This batch was a bad decision, deleting some reasonable redirects. They should have been kept. The nom and the only voter don't seem to grasp that Printmaking is not Printing, and that all the well-known Japanese stuff is indeed Woodblock printing in Japan. They should be restored. Johnbod (talk) 09:48, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
Quite clearly wrong; I've restored all of them. Beeblebrox, would you mind explaining how trashing these is at all resembling facilitating a pagemove, un-shadowing images from Commons, or history merges? Please read Just Chilling's words and act likewise. Nyttend (talk) 12:16, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
  • I posted a parallel discussion about this at ANI yesterday and it has evolved into a proposal to explicitly state that Neelix-created redirects may be deleted under WP:G6 basically just so that the issue of which criterion to apply can be resolved (the rationale is more eloquent there). If you're following this thread, your eyes on the proposal would be appreciated. Thanks. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 20:44, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Metrojet Flight 9268

Right now, 1RR is enforced on this article. This affects my ability to correct errors done by other editors. Shall we make this article an exception and then go for 2RR instead? --George Ho (talk) 04:47, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

I had a clear 4RR drafted up on George Ho as he was reverting against over a dozen other editors. (he does not accept the Russian/UK/US/Irish finding of a bomb). I did not submit it because it looked like he was stopping. Legacypac (talk) 05:15, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
We got Russia's "confirmation" just to "verify" the Western states' hypotheses. Having news media and Wikipedia retell Russia's is bad enough, but that's news for ya. --George Ho (talk) 05:57, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
We have a policy on edit warring, and this policy makes no exceptions for being right. And that's for a reason because all people are different and they might have different concepts of "rightness", "truth", etc. based on their upbringing, beliefs, perception of reality and what they themselves want to believe, after all. That's why our editing process is based on consensus building among multiple editors through discussion, instead of reverting the heck out of it based on what individual editors like or dislike. Max Semenik (talk) 03:29, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Since the Paris attacks a week ago, followed on Tuesday by the Russian investigators' determination that the flight was destroyed by a bomb, we have had a flurry of IP edits wanting to add that to the infobox as a final cause. I edit aviation articles a lot and that isn't usually how it is done; instead normal procedure would be to wait for an uninvolved determination. I am highly INVOLVED in editing that article, (with 131 edits I am the second most prolific editor there) and I skirted 3RR in restoring the uncertainty to the infobox as I believe is proper. We now have a reasonable compromise in the infobox but the unhelpful IP edits have continued. I requested semi-protection but the request has now sat there for a couple of days without action. I see from the archive that a previous request was declined by User:Samsara on the grounds that IPs were making useful edits and that semi-protection would prevent this. I don't see it like this so I just semi-protected the article myself in an IAR moment. I realise that this breaks the letter of WP:INVOLVED so I am raising it here for scrutiny by my peers. If anyone thinks it is better to unprotect the article I won't fight them. Or maybe someone else will take ownership of the protection? On a high-profile article like this the matter may be challenged so it's worth having a discussion maybe. Obviously if anyone thinks my actions demonstrate unfitness for adminship, I suppose we could go over to AN/I and I could tie myself to the whipping post there. What do others think? --John (talk) 19:05, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

@John: I've looked at that report at least ten times since you made it and each time decided the article should not yet be semi-protected. There's no clear consensus on the talk page and a compromise could have been worked out. I would have semi-protected if there was general consensus and the IPs refused to discuss. I was also going to semi-protect if we had a couple more disruptive edits today but a month's protection seems excessive. I'd be willing to take ownership of a two week semi based on disruptive editing. --NeilN talk to me 19:33, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, my impression is that a compromise has now been worked out and that this would be a good moment to semi-protect. None of the IPs have discussed the matter at all as far as I am aware. Two weeks would be fine with me as a compromise on protection. --John (talk) 19:40, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
Done. --NeilN talk to me 19:46, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
A wise move, I think. And also very wise words from Max Semenik. I agree wholly with John about "the final cause". Personally, I think the probability is 99.9%, but that's just a personal view. There is still an internationally-agreed legal process to be observed? So I find the use of that word "confirms" on the front page quite inappropriate, but I can't be bothered to make a fuss at the ITN talk page. At least with this protection we may avoid the flurry of IPs claiming a bomb was planted by Abdelhamid Abaaoud on his way back from Syria (well, possibly). Martinevans123 (talk) 20:10, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
Fine by me. The editing pattern looks different now[36] than when the earlier request was made/declined.[37] Samsara 20:29, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
I don't want to make a big deal about this, but from what I've seen the IPs and most logged in editors have been very constructive. The main problem is George Ho who has been very clear he puts no faith in the Russians. His anti-Russian bias is causing any conflict, and semi-protection only assists him in fighting for his position. Legacypac (talk) 20:48, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
I searched past discussions to prove that I'm not anti-Russian. I am unsure whether this (Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates/December 2014#.5bPosted.5d Russian financial crisis) helps. I still believe that governments can state dubious things. FBI can say it; so can Russian Federal Secret Service. Re-reading the article, ISIS has claimed responsibilities for many violent incidents, including this one, although some confessions might not be always true. And how and where can they buy and/or use computers to distribute Dabiq? George Ho (talk) 08:11, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not run on what you believe, it runs on what reliable sources say. (Also, are you aware that ISIL is in control of two large, modern cities - Raqqa and Mosul - and has supporters in other more "civilized" places?) ansh666 22:35, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - just to clarify- the SCW&ISIL sanctions are relevant for 1RR on reverting registered editors. You can revert IPs as much as you like with no effect.GreyShark (dibra) 18:52, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding Removal of Unused Sanctions

Resolved by motion of the Arbitration Committee, that: Every so often, it becomes reasonable to terminate sanctions that are no longer necessary,

  1. Remedy 1 of the Lapsed Pacifist 2 case is rescinded;
  2. Remedy 2 of the Mantanmoreland case is rescinded;
  3. Remedy 1 of the Waterboarding case is rescinded;
  4. Remedy 1 of the Vivaldi case is rescinded;
  5. Nothing in this motion provides grounds for appeal of remedies or restrictions imposed while article probations for the foregoing cases were in force. Such appeals or requests to lift or modify such sanctions may be made under the same terms as any other appeal;
  6. In the event that disruptive editing resumes in any of these topic-areas, a request to consider reinstating discretionary sanctions in that topic-area may be made on the clarifications and amendments page.

For the Arbitration Committee, --L235 (alt / t / c / ping in reply) 21:06, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Arbitration motion regarding Removal of Unused Sanctions

Google Relying on Wikipedia

Google has, for the first time in two years, published their Search Quality Evaluator Guidelines.

The guidelines mention Wikipedia repeatedly (52 times) as a source of useful information. Those trying to maneuver to the top of Google will be here trying to engineer the right kind of content. Please consider familiarizing yourself with the above document, and watching for such activity. Jehochman Talk 21:58, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that. This document talks about Wikipedia being used to help determine the reputation of websites and companies. It also talks about assessment of authority of Wikipedia articles based on the number of references included. Updated Wikipedia articles are more likely to have a better reputation. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:45, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Request to lift the topic ban of DrChrissy

It is 6 months since my indefinite topic ban was imposed on the 20th May 2015.[38] I am now seeking a lifting of this ban.@Awilley:

Although the subject-area of my ban was initially confused, the locus relates to three subjects (1) alternative medicine, (2) WP:MEDRS and (3) human medicine articles. I have not edited any pages in these subjects or entered into discussions about them during the last 6 months. However, there was initially some confusion on my part whether the topic ban included my sandbox. It was subsequently pointed out how it did, which I accepted. At that time, it was unclear from the WP:Banning policy that personal sandboxes were included. Therefore, after realising the omission, I edited the policy article to specify this to improve the project and give more accessible and accurate future guidance for editors and administrators.[39]

Throughout the last 6 months, I have been highly motivated to remain a responsible Wikipedian and contribute positively to the project whilst avoiding violating my topic ban. To ensure this, I have on several occasions contacted the (final) closing admin, User:Awilley, e.g. here[40] and another admin, User:Slimvirgin, to discuss my potential edits.

During the last 6 months, I have remained a highly productive editor, focusing primarily on animal behaviour and animal welfare articles.[41] For example, I recently substantially re-wrote Pain in fish and started the article Pain in amphibians. I have also regularly contributed to other aspects of the project such as the science reference desk e.g. here[42]

I believe the fundamental reason for my attracting a topic ban was my lack of understanding WP:MEDRS as applied to alternative medicine. This meant I challenged the guidelines in what became a very pointy and tangential approach to editing Talk pages. I was trying to make the point that it seemed to me at the time, there was inconsistency in the way that sources were being considered as reliable or not. I have now fully acquainted myself with WP:MEDRS, WP:RS and WP:POINTY. I recognise and accept my actions leading to the topic ban were disruptive to the project. I apologise and I pledge it will not happen again.

Briefly, I believe my topic ban has prevented the topic area from being disrupted by myself for the last 6 months. During this time, I have reflected upon and learned why I caused this disruption in the topic area. I will adjust my future editing in the topic area to ensure I cause no further disruption. The topic ban has achieved its objective and I request it now be lifted.DrChrissy (talk) 23:31, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Non-admin comment: I consider myself a Wiki-friend of DrChrissy, and I have conflicted feelings about this request. I have some questions for DrChrissy that I would be interested in having answered. First, do you really want to be able to edit in that topic area? If you can be productive editing in other areas, as I believe that you are, what good would come from you returning to edit about alt med etc? Second, there is a significant possibility that the GMO arbitration case, now in the proposed decision stage, will end up issuing a new topic ban, in the GMO topic area. How can you reassure the community, in that context, that it is really true that you have taken on board the lessons of the ban that you now ask to be lifted? --Tryptofish (talk) 00:23, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Brief non-admin comment: This editor has violated their topic ban as recently as late August. Yobol (talk) 00:53, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
My first thought when I read this was much like Tryptofish's. If your behavior outside the area of your first topic ban leads to a second topic ban, how can we believe that removing the first ban would be a good idea? Deli nk (talk) 01:06, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
(e/c)Comment by proposer Thanks for the format change Trypto. You raise an extremely good point. I actually do not want to make editing in-roads into the subjects covered by my topic ban. I have no plans to edit human medicine articles (the irony here is that I cannot recollect ever having substantially edited a human medicine page before - although I may have at some point). I also have very little motivation to edit articles, except where these relate to animals such as Veterinary acupuncture. I feel, however, I will become involved in WP:MEDRS, but again as this relates to animals. I have not looked at the MEDRS/Talk page for many months. The last time I did, there were discussions to extend MEDRS guidelines to animals and perhaps other science pages. I feel I have something to contribute to these discussions, but please be assured, these will not be disruptive contributions.
So, why do I want the topic ban lifted? It is simply because I am totally, and completely fed up with looking over my shoulder whilst editing. There are several editors out there playing "gotcha" with me. Some editors have argued that because I have included content on the environmental toxicity of a substance to rats, this means I am making a comment on human health and therefore I have violated my topic ban. In reality, my reason for entering the content was that rats are often used as a model for the toxicity of a substance to other mammals in general. Other editors have effectively suggested that if I am using a source, I should count the words and if more of the words relate to human health rather than animal health, I am in violation of my topic ban if I use the source! Working under this extremely negative, microscopic surveillance has been totally exasperating for me and I wish to return to editing articles without such scruitiny of my editing.
Regarding the current ArbCom case, I would like admins here to look at this diff, please.[43] Note the first diff of apparent evidence at the PD relates to my behaviour well before the imposition of my topic ban and shows only a single reversion by me. The 2nd-4th diff in the PD also indicate just a single reversion on my part. I would argue this is not disruptive behaviour, but rather, indicates the topic ban I received here has helped me understand and develop a more balanced approach to engaging in such disputes.
DrChrissy (talk) 01:20, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose - DrChrissy's editing in other closely-released fringe areas has been combative and rife with obvious POV-problems. I see absolutely no benefit to the project in releasing him from any sanction they are currently under. Further, the reason given for wanting out from the ban "It is simply because I am totally, and completely fed up with looking over my shoulder whilst editing." Well, that's too bad, they shouldn't have edited in such a fashion as to be topic-banned - and the attitudes expressed 'All these editors are picking on me and looking over my shoulder monitoring my edits' does not bode well for non-combative editing should the ban be lifted. NO, just... no. BMK (talk) 01:45, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
I obviously do not see it in such absolute terms as you do. One possibility I am wondering about would be basically to leave the topic ban in place, but to carefully amend it, by revising it to decrease the ambiguities over where the boundaries are. Perhaps some veterinary topics could be designated as permitted within the ban. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:09, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support for editing pages related to animals such as Veterinary acupuncture. QuackGuru (talk) 05:54, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - the TB handcuffs DrChrissy from being the productive editor he could be in his area of expertise. It has become more like a punishment than a deflector of potential disputes and that hurts rather than helps the project. Atsme📞📧 06:22, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support – I agree with Atsme that unshackling DrChrissy is more likely to help the project than hurt it. --Epipelagic (talk) 07:32, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose - I have to note Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically modified organisms/Proposed decision a current case before Arbcom. Though it's possible they can change their positions before the close, right now it looks a whole lot like she's treading towards a topic ban in another area. I note the finding of facts here. This does not present much confidence to me.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 11:31, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support DrChrissy did not violate his topic ban as Yobol suggests, DrChrissy was in fact banned
    User:DrChrissy is topic banned from alternative medicine, broadly construed. To be clear, this includes alternative medicine for humans and animals, so Veterinary acupuncture does fall under the scope of this ban. Animal biology, behavior, health, and normal veterinary medicine does not fall under the scope of this ban so long as it does not intersect with alternative medicine topics such as acupuncture, homeopathy, TCM, energy medicine, faith healing, etc. DrChrissy is also topic banned from human medical articles and WP:MEDRS related discussions (in accordance with the previous close, and to reduce the possibility of conflict with the same group of users)
    His post didn't cross that line. I'd say lift it. KoshVorlon 12:21, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • I continue to think that the wisest course of action here is to better define the boundaries. Personally, I am very sensitive to the fact that it is unfair to DrChrissy to always have to look over one's shoulder. There is a difference between a user being required to be careful in adhering to a sanction, which is appropriate, and a user always having to worry about getting caught in a "gotcha", which should never deliberately be part of a sanction. If there are "gotchas", that doesn't constitute appropriate "punishment", but rather it reflects excessively vague writing of the sanction.
So, @DrChrissy: Would lifting the prohibition on alternative veterinary medicine, while retaining the restriction on alternative human medicine, be helpful to you? If so, would you be willing not to get involved in MEDRS? How would you like to define the boundary with respect to things like animal studies such as that study about toxicity in rats? --Tryptofish (talk) 17:55, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
Reply from OP Trypto, thank you very much for this. I know you are trying to help. I could argue for or against your proposal, however, I feel this ultimately comes down to the question, if the alternative veterinary medicine area no longer needs protection, why does alternative medicine and MEDRS need further protection from me? Where are the edits to suggest these latter 2 of the 3 areas of the locus still need protection from me? I feel very strongly that accusations here such as "DrChrissy's editing in other closely-released [sic] fringe areas has been combative and rife with obvious POV-problems." by BMK above should be supported by diffs or other evidence. Otherwise this may deteriorate into a drive-by shooting.
Just to indicate the difficulty of working with a topic ban on MEDRS, try explaining to a new editor mistakenly imposing MEDRS on an animal behaviour article with respect to primary and secondary sources without mentioning MEDRS! How can my inability to even point the editor in the correct direction possibly be beneficial to the project?DrChrissy (talk) 18:30, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
I think that it's useful to discuss the boundaries in this way, rather than just jumping prematurely to a concrete proposal. I see better now what you are saying about MEDRS. Perhaps you should be able to refer to MEDRS and to cite its proper or improper use in veterinary or animal-related discussions, without actually editing the MEDRS page or its talk page, or making or discussing proposals about how to revise MEDRS. As for alternative human medicine, I too would like to see specifics. From both "sides". I'd like you to indicate specifically what kinds of edits you would like to be able to make there, and I'd like other editors to indicate specifically what edits you have made that they think have been disruptive. Then, let's see where we stand. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:53, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
I would like to make it clear that I have never edited WP:MEDRS and I see no reason why I would want to edit the main article in the foreseeable future. I have edited the talk page. At the time of my topic ban being imposed, there were discussions there about extensions of the MEDRS guidelines to include animals and veterinary science. I would contribute to these discussions - however, after having just looked at the Talk page, it appears these discussions are no longer ongoing. I would perhaps like to contribute positively in discussions where animals are used as models, particularly in behavioural studies and perhaps in zoonoses. Regarding articles, again I would like to edit where my knowledge of animal physiology, behaviour, and adequate design/controls for animal studies will benefit the article and the project. As I indicated in my OP, I have fully acquainted myself with WP:MEDRS and I would make edits fully compliant with these guidelines.DrChrissy (talk) 20:15, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
OK, I'm pursuing this because I think it is becoming pretty clear that, no matter what, there will not be a consensus for a complete and unconditional lifting of the ban, so I'm trying to pin down something that would be better than nothing. I'm friendly to lifting the ban with respect to veterinary and animal-related topics. I think that, given what you just said, there may no longer be much reason for you to really be involved in the MEDRS talk page. Perhaps we can examine lifting the ban with respect to veterinary alt med (but not human alt med), and animal testing. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:10, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm afraid I do not share your belief there will be no consensus for an unconditional lifting, unless contributors are allowed to make unfounded accusations against me without providing evidence. What is your evidence that MEDRS needs further protection from me? (Please note that animal testing is not part of my topic ban and never has been.)DrChrissy (talk) 21:25, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
Oh, I don't have that kind of evidence myself, and I'm not claiming to. I'm just trying to discuss things, keeping in mind that this is not a vote. At this point, I'm going to step back and watch what other editors say. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:45, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Tryptofish, Yobol, and BMK. I see nothing that indicates the ban should be lifted at this time. That the editor wants such a ban lifted only 6 months later tells me they are chomping at the bit to start editing the topic banned articles immediately. And that tells me lesson not learned and disruption will once again likely be the result. If such is the case, what will the response be? An indef ban for the account rather than a topic ban alone? I don't see this request as a wise move on the requesting editor's part nor do I see that there won't be more problems for the editor down the road. The evidence just isn't there. More time has to pass, in my opinion. -- WV 20:28, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
It is not my intention to reply to each and every posting here - I have learned from experience that such an approach is not looked favourably upon at WP. However, Winkelvi (who I believe I have never interacted with before) misinterprets my keenness to have the topic ban lifted. I have already indicated above my future editing intentions if the ban is lifted - I will not re-hash these, but will re-iterate there is no desire on my part whatsoever to rush into editing any of the areas I am banned from. Winkelvi, please AGF. My chomping at the bit is to allow me to edit more positively and comprehensively (note the example regarding MEDRS I gave above - this is just one example where the project is actually suffering from my topic ban). You say "The evidence just isn't there." - could you please tell me what evidence you would like to see?DrChrissy (talk) 20:58, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
Just as a follow-up - Tryptofish has not voted Oppose. He has actually made some very reasonable suggestions about a modified topic ban which are under discussion.DrChrissy (talk) 21:03, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
I confirm that I have not yet really "voted" either way. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:10, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - per Supports above, and DrChrissy's statement just above. Opposers are utterly unconvincing and appear to be grasping at straws. This is a noted content provider that has served their time, and is not intimidated by the experience. Bravo! Jusdafax 21:19, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose The editor is up for an ArbCom topic ban due to the same behavior that resulted in the current topic ban and people want to lift it? Makes no sense. Though I see a lot of the same names supporting here that are involved in said GMO case.Capeo (talk) 21:44, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
    @Capeo: I have just left a message for User:Edgar181 below, but as you have posted a similar assertion, I will pose the same question to you. To help the closing admin understand your !vote, please could you state which is the "same behavior" you believe I was topic banned for and which you believe is now being looked at by ArbCom. What is your evidence for making such a statement, please?DrChrissy (talk) 20:00, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
What is my evidence? Seriously? There's plenty over on the case pages themselves for those who want to peruse it. The same behavior would POV pushing and some edit-warring as well. Capeo (talk) 21:43, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Yes, seriously. You have still not provided evidence; you have simply said where evidence might be found. The case pages are enormous! You are proposing a huge time-sink for the closing admin to determine if your statement is legitimate and worthy of taking into account.DrChrissy (talk) 22:06, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Quick follow up - the PD presented only 4 diffs, all of which were related to only 2 interactions but clearly showed goading of me by one very notorious editor. The diffs contained only 2 reversions by myself, one in each interaction presented as "evidence".DrChrissy (talk) 22:18, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
(Whipsers): Psst, DrChrissy, placing blame on another editor isn't helping you here. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:47, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Typto - heard and understood.DrChrissy (talk) 23:05, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
I will indeed leave it to the closing admin to decide if my oppose is legitimate. Your history of conflicts in fringe areas is evident enough for them to see just from what lead to your current topic ban and the one soon to be imposed by ArbCom. Capeo (talk) 21:48, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Please provide evidence of which "fringe" pages I have edited since my topic ban.DrChrissy (talk) 16:14, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Let me start by saying I do believe DrChrissy is a good faith editor who genuinely has the best interest of Wikipedia's readers at heart. I would add that there were some problems with the original topic ban, namely that users agreed to a ban on "biomedical topics" without really defining what that term means, leading to some messiness when trying to impose and define the scope of the ban, which in turn led to far more after-discussion than should have been necessary for a simple topic ban. Because of these factors I am inclined towards leniency/AGF here.
I'm not sure if the edit cited from August really constitutes a violation of the ban, but if it does I believe this was not intentional, and frankly I don't really feel like reviewing an entire arbcom case to see what's going on there. If arbcom feels a new, different sanction is warranted they are perfectly able to implement it, but I dislike the idea of denying this request because of an accusation there. As a former arb I am painfully aware of how many such accusations are made during cases, many if not most of which don't lead anywhere. I think we should give DrChrissy another chance, per WP:ROPE, which of course implies tht they also should understand that if they cause similar problems int he future the bar to re-imposing this ban will be quite low and there will be very little chance of getting it lifted again. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:29, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure I follow your logic here: the initial ban was not precise and had to be restated in more precise terms. That happened a long time before the edit in question, plenty of time for DrC to unserstand the boundaries of the ban; but even if we wanted to show DC some leniency because of the initial ban wording snafu, we've already done that: DrC was not blocked because of that edit. There's is absolutely no logical reason why an garble at the beginning of the ban, and a posssible boundary-pushing edit for which there was no sanction equals a lifting of the topic ban because the subject of the ban is tired of it. I will lay odds that the subject of every topic ban gets tired of it at one time or another.
Also, I do not agree that DrC has "the best interests of Wikipedia at heart." I think their editing shows that they have the best interests of their fringe POV at heart, and what they want for WIkipedia is to skew it in that direction. BMK (talk) 22:44, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
BMK, I am someone who would, if anything, would be pegged as having a POV opposite to what you ascribe to DrChrissy (not that I really do, but it is how I appear to be perceived), but I do not see DrChrissy the way that you do. And Beeblebrox, there are two separate topic bans involved here, and the one that is under discussion here at AN is not an ArbCom decision, but rather, a community sanction. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:50, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
Will somebody please tell me what my POV is in relation to this topic ban because I have no idea!DrChrissy (talk) 23:22, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
I think I may have worded that inelegantly, but I wasn't trying to say that you have a POV. I was saying that the editors who want the ban to remain, full stop, seem to think that you have fringey views or something like that. But I don't think the issue here is really about POV, so I'm sorry if that's become a distraction. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:45, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
Trypto, my reply was not really aimed at you. It was more aimed at BMK. His accusations are a mixture of vague, wishy-washy statements without providing any solid evidence. @Beyond My Ken: What Fringe articles have I edited? How are my edits on those articles indicating I am pushing a POV? What is this POV? I think your reply needs to be very careful because as far as I know, it is not inappropriate to have a POV, but it is inappropriate to push a POV. Please provide evidence that I have been doing this since my topic ban.DrChrissy (talk) 23:56, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Apparently I was also not sufficiently clear in my remarks.

@Beyond My Ken:Note the seperate paragraphs. I was not intending to say that the ppossible topic ban violation was due to the earlier vagueries about it scope, just that it looks like a bit of a stretch and I do not believe it was intentional violation.
@Tryptofish: I am well aware of which topic ban we are discussing. Some commenters here have suggested that because another tban is a possible result of an ongoing arbcom case, that means this one should not be lifted. I don't think the two should be linked in that manner. I'm not sure why you thought I was talking about the lifting the arbcom tban. (which if I understand the situation correctly doesn't actually exist at this time) Beeblebrox (talk) 01:34, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I think I misunderstood what you originally said, to be referring to Arbs reviewing this topic ban. Never mind. But I think you are right about ROPE. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:41, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Strong Support Topic bans are silly and 6-month or more topic bans are ridiculous. DrChrissy is a good editor and he will either edit constructively or not in these areas. If not, there will be blocks and possibly a ban in the future. --I am One of Many (talk) 02:36, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Conditional support with alternate proposal I'm the admin who refined the wording of the current topic ban to what it is now, and I've been a point of contact when DrChrissy had questions or skirted the edges of the ban. I am encouraged that DrChrissy recognizes what the problem was with their editing 6 months ago, and though they have (in my view) been skirting the edges of the ban, I can also understand how it would be difficult to edit articles about animal medicine (their profession) without ever touching human medicine. Anyway, I think the topic ban has been a good thing overall for reducing drama so I'm hesitant to eliminate it completely. I would support, however, converting it to a voluntary "on your honor" topic ban, where DrChrissy promises to do their best to stay away from human medicine and MEDRS, but doesn't have to worry about being blocked if they mess up. ~Awilley (talk) 05:20, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Awilley, thanks for your input here. As ever, your words are well considered and very helpful. First, I don't think I have ever edited a human medicine article (I may be wrong here and other editors should feel free to indicate this if I am) and I have no desire to begin doing this now. However, although I have absolutely no motivation to start posting to the MEDRS Talk page at the moment, I feel that I may have something to contribute if animal-related matters arise in the future. I have worked extremely hard to build my reputation and integrity here on wikipedia. If I was to promise to do my best to stay away from MEDRS Talk and then edited there at some time in the future, there is no doubt in my mind there would be postings along the lines of "DrChrissy - you broke your promise. You have little integrity". In your proposal, I would not be blocked for the edit, but I feel it would leave me open to abusive and inflammatory posts. One way around this would be for a voluntary ban to be time-limited to e.g. 4 weeks, after which I would be free to edit the entire site without question (of course, I would be adhering to the usual behaviour and PAGs expected of editors).DrChrissy (talk) 18:07, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
OK, how about this? You agree to stay off articles specifically about human medicine and human alt-med, and away from MEDRS for 3 months. This is more narrow than your current ban, so you won't have to count words, scrutinize sources, or look over your shoulder. Just don't edit certain articles. This would be kind of the test period to see if drama increases again, and it ends automatically without appeal, after which you can edit anywhere on the site. ~Awilley (talk) 17:01, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
I am opposed in principle to negotiating bans with the subject of the ban. Discussion can take place between uninvolved editors, but to put it on a one-to-one basis between the banning admin and the subject leaves it open to abuse. BMK (talk) 21:43, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Abuse? Who should bans be negotiated with if not the subject of the ban? And what's wrong with giving editors some control over where they can edit? The way I see it if somebody has enough input where they can agree to follow a topic ban, that is a very good thing, and they are more likely to abide by that sanction than if it was unilaterally imposed on them by forces completely outside of their control. ~Awilley (talk) 05:35, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks again for your words. I would be amenable to considering this if the wording was very specific to articles rather than topics or discussion. For example, it was very recently announced that GM salmon has now been licensed in the US. I was editing the Genetically modified fish article to reflect this. The RS I was using stated that the fish would not be labelled as GM because it was "nutritionally equivalent to non-GM salmon" (I think those were the words). I felt this fact should be included, however, I did not include it because it probably relates to human health which is a part of human medicine. I think your proposal would deal with this type of problem. However, it is probably worth noting that the "count the words relating to humans and the number of words relating to animals" and "rats are used in studies for human health results therefore you have breached your topic ban" both occurred on the Glyphosate article - a herbicide, for goodness sake. I can see the distinct advantages of what you have suggested. But, I am mindful that many people have already supported an unconditional lifting of my topic ban now that 6 months has expired, rather than my having to experience a further 3-month test-period. I'm sure the closing admin will take all these points of view into consideration.DrChrissy (talk) 18:25, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Yes, this would only apply to articles only. I too am aware of the supports piling up below, so you will likely be unbanned without needing my support. I think it's a good idea anyway, even if you just make the commitment to yourself and don't write it down on-Wiki. ~Awilley (talk) 05:35, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support lifting of the topic ban. It has led to several "gotcha" situations, and no-one being clear where the boundaries lay. DrC makes clear above that his understanding of MEDRS has improved. Lifting the ban will mean that he can work unimpeded, particularly on non-human animal health. SarahSV (talk) 23:39, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support unconditional lifting of the ban, with an accompanying understanding of WP:ROPE. I've seen enough discussion now, and I have made up my mind. I think that Beeblebrox makes good points, both about ROPE and about the non-dependence on whatever happens at ArbCom. I've waited for evidence of harmful edits around the boundaries of the topic, and nobody has really presented any. Lift the ban entirely. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:49, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support lifting the ban given DrC's recognition of what caused the problems in the first place. clpo13(talk) 00:03, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support I would feel very comfortable using DrChrissy's suggestion from his response to Awilley above: One way around this would be for a voluntary ban to be time-limited to e.g. 4 weeks, after which I would be free to edit the entire site without question (of course, I would be adhering to the usual behaviour and PAGs expected of editors) I maintain that he should be able to edit this site without question, and would especially hate to loose his voice at MEDRS-related discussions. petrarchan47คุ 02:19, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - The community will do what the community will do, but if the ban is lifted, I see a significant probability that we'll see DrC's name on the noticeboards again. Remember, you read it here first! BMK (talk) 04:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. DrChrissy - straightforward, cooperative, professional. The Tban implementation - poorly-defined, "gotcha", dysfunctional. (How does WP attract/keep expert editors? By draining them of morale?! DrChrissy is a stronger editor from this muddy experience. That deserves recognition not bad faith.) IHTS (talk) 06:08, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • support a valuable editor, Wikipedia should be stronger, "knowledge-wise" with such an editor--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:41, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment I do not recognise the editor described in many of the support comments here as the one who has been topic banned by the community. The editing environment has been improved in the topic areas covered by the ban. The fact that ARBCOM is examining those very same behaviours that led DrC to be sanctioned by the community suggests to me that this appeal is premature. -Roxy the dog™ woof 15:47, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • It's also interesting to note that I recognize many of the "support" voters as being other editors who generally support the fringe side of things (QuackGuru being the obviously blatant exception). BMK (talk) 20:02, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Although it's true that there are some editors who predictably line up to vote (not !vote) for the fringey "side" every time, and it's also true that the decision here is not going to end up as a vote, but rather as an administrative assessment of the strengths or weaknesses of arguments, I really do not think that DrChrissy is someone who advocates for fringe material. Nor, may I say, am I (and I hope that my pointing that out will not be portrayed as "whiney"). --Tryptofish (talk) 20:43, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • I was not including you in the group of editors I mentioned, nor would I characterize your participation here as "whining", as opposed to your ongoing disproportionate response to your 24-hour ArbCom block over a month ago, which I advised you to put behind you ("Get over it"), instead of dwelling on it unnecessarily. Other editors have been the recipients of unwarranted blocks for any number of reasons, and you don't see them making it their life's work to rectify the injustice. (That's assuming that your block was unwarranted, which we cannot know because we are not privy to the information that ArbCom was.) BMK (talk) 21:40, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • I repeat: I see no evidence that DrChrissy will add fringey content. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:14, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Then I would say that your evaluation of their editing is suspect, and advise you to re-read the community discussion which lead to the topic ban in the first place. You'll find it here. BMK (talk) 00:41, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Roxy, thank-you very much for that first sentence. I could not have asked for a more eloquent piece of writing to indicate how much my editing behaviour has changed over the past 6 months, and how the topic ban has achieved its objective within the time indicated by the closing admin.DrChrissy (talk) 20:16, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Are you deliberately misreading what Roxy wrote, or are you simply being disingenuous? What he said was nothing like your summary of it. He's saying that the subject area you've been topic banned from has improved significantly by your not being there, and that the description of your editing promoted by your supporters is unrecognizable to him when compared to your actual editing behavior. (Hint: It was bad for you, not good.) BMK (talk) 21:49, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Oh dear BMK. Lots of bold and underlining, but Roxy does not even bother to defend his own posting. Are you able to read his mind? He correctly identified that the community have recognised I have changed my editing behaviour subsequent to the topic ban and that is completely valid evidence for it to be lifted. I simply thanked him for that observation.DrChrissy (talk) 00:43, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • No, I can't read Roxy's mind, but, fortunately, I don't have to, since I can read their words, in which they expressed quite clearly what is on their mind. I suggest you try doing the same, since he said nothing whatsoever about the community recognizing a change in your editing behavior. It probably would be a good idea to read it again, this time without reading into it what you want it to say, instead of what he actually says. While it's often the point of snarky remarks, reading comprehension really is necessary to edit Wikipedia properly, if one is to, for instance, represent accurately what reliable sources say rather than what one wishes them to say. BMK (talk) 02:14, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Sorry. Real life, and it was bedtime. I dreamed about leopards and spots. Perhaps I should get a vetinary to interpret ... Oh. -Roxy the dog™ woof 07:04, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I think it is a very bad idea to lift an existing topic ban on an editor who is currently facing another topic ban for the same type of behavior that led to the first. -- Ed (Edgar181) 18:39, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
    Edgar181, to help the closing admin. understand your !vote, please could you state which is the "same type of behavior" you believe I was topic banned for and which you believe is now being looked at by ArbCom. What is your evidence for making such a statement, please?DrChrissy (talk) 19:53, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. Not an admin, but an editor who has worked with DrChrissy on articles such as glyphosate. DrChrissy is a valuable and hard-working editor. I think that judgments above that refer to DrChrissy having a "fringy" point of view are troublesome, for two reasons. (1) Having a POV is not against guidelines, but rather encouraged, actually, and i think DrChrissy's POV is valuable in editing here, as it's somewhat underrepresented. (2) The decision of what is "fringy" is rather relative. All judgment should be based on behavior, and relate to whether DrChrissy works well with other editors, uses appropriate sources, and represents them accurately. Any judgment that is based on an assumed "standard POV" for Wikipedia is creating a "party line" of sorts. I support DrChrissy's request for a full lift of the ban, and then future behavior being judged based on behavior in regard to the guidelines. SageRad (talk) 22:55, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Another member of the crew. BMK (talk) 23:58, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • @Beyond My Ken: What is that supposed to mean? Looks a lot like poisoning the well and attempting to cast me as a gang-like POV editor. If that is the implication, then i ask you to either say that explicitly, or to strike the insinuating remark. Let's be explicit and honest about what we mean. I have indeed worked alongside DrChrissy on a few articles, very productively in general. A few times i've urged DrChrissy to slow down and to listen to other editors more, but on the whole i have found DrChrissy a generally good and conscientious editor. Now would you please explain your brief drive-by remark here? Thank you. SageRad (talk) 07:13, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • SageRad, considering your situation, you're hardly in a position to pass judgement on other editor's comments or to demand anything, nor can you be considered as a non-partisan voice in this discussion. I suggest that the closer of this discussion would be best advised to ignore your comment entirely as yet another one of the fringy crew. BMK (talk) 07:30, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • You repeat the same behavior that i've stated is problematic, attempting to poison the well against my input and framing me as a POV pushing gang editor and thereby trying to negate my ability to provide input here. That's wrong. I ask you to strike it. I've got editing experience with DrChrissy and can provide input. I'm generally in favor of the sorts of edits that DrChrissy makes though not always, and my input is quite as valid as anyone else's. What you're trying to do here is not ok. It's battleground behavior. I've stated my concerns. This section is about DrChrissy, not you and i, and I gave my input. SageRad (talk) 09:39, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Yes, and you certainly can do that. I also gave my input, which is that your input would best be ignored by anyone who closes this thread. I see nothing wrong with that. BMK (talk) 00:07, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
This is what is wrong with it. SageRad (talk) 08:20, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

  • I'm not going to !vote (others have lined up to do that from the GMO ArbCom case), but myself and others have voiced concern many times on their talk page when DrChrissy has tested the edges their current topic ban(s).[44][45][46][47][48][49][50][51][52] If someone actually is going to consider removing the ban they should consider those diffs and talk page sections and that DrChrissy is up for another topic ban at ArbCom for the same behavior. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:07, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Why are you not !voting? It seems a little odd to me to contribute something like you have and than actually refuse to !vote. Perhaps you are not convinced by your own arguments? I feel you really should clarify which behaviours in the admin's closing statement for my topic ban are also being considered at ArbCom. You are stating it is the "same" behaviour, but I fail to see what behaviour you are referring to.DrChrissy (talk) 01:32, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Mostly because "votes" mean nothing here. The evidence should speak for itself. That and there's already a block of editors associated with the GMO case doling out supports, and I usually give those kinds of votes doubly less weight (whether support or oppose). Tossing a bold word or two in front of my post would carry just as little weight. What less involved editors determine from evidence presented in examples like mine is what matters, not vote counts. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:06, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Hmmm, I see more of the same aspersions that we've been seeing at ArbCom which includes providing diffs that don't support the allegations (and what makes them aspersions). The diffs I reviewed were simply explanations of the TB, not actual violations of it. Claims that DrChrissy has been "testing the edges of his TB" are part of the reason for his request to lift it - it was never done intentionally rather the TB is thoroughly confusing and extremely restrictive in places where it shouldn't be so it seems quite odd that anyone with a lick of common sense would condemn him to many more months in purgatory because of the flaws surrounding the TB. Ironically, the diffs used to support the unwarranted allegations (and I actually investigated them) also included comments by admins, SlimVirgin and Beeblebrox, who support lifting this ban, so how on earth could those diffs support keeping the ban in place? I will also mention that the long list of diffs look impressive but they don't support any of the reasons given to keep the ban in place. Thank goodness we don't have an overabundance of admins working under time constraints who will simply look at such a large number of diffs and ass-u-me they support the allegations. I find such a practice to be extremely disruptive and potentially harmful to both the editor being unjustly accused as well as to the project overall....but of course, that's just my POV. Atsme📞📧 20:07, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. As shown by Kingofaces43, DrChrissy seems intent on skirting their topic ban, by trying to edit articles which can be summed up "scientific consensus versus fringe unscientific POV / conspiracy theorists / Daily Mail health articles etc." with articles areas such as GM food, glycophosphate, acupuncture, high fructose corn syrup etc.. This does not suggest good faith. Why the heck can't they stay away from these areas and concentrate on uncontentious areas for a while? Their editing is not suited to WP:FRINGE areas whatsoever. It will just end up with future ANI and ArbCom actions. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 23:38, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
This is an outrageous posting! I have never edited high fructose corn syrup or its Talk page!DrChrissy (talk) 00:17, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
What about [53]? If you havent edited the article you've certainly discussed it. I have changed artcles to areas.--Jules (Mrjulesd) 00:21, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
E/C That is a diff to my Talk page in which I was discussing with a well respected admin whether a posting to the page would be a violation of my topic ban. They explained it would, so I did not make the edit/s. Are you suggesting that my seeking advice from an admin means I am in breach of my topic ban?DrChrissy (talk) 00:33, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
OK it's not clear what happened. I shall redact it. But why even ask? Of course it would violate your ban. see WP:CIR --Jules (Mrjulesd) 00:42, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
I invite you to also redact your accusation about me editing the acupuncture page and its associate Talk page. My last edit of that page was on May 17th - 3 days before my topic ban was imposed.DrChrissy (talk) 01:02, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
You had a community ban dated the 16th. See [54]. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 01:20, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Acupuncture is considered to be, not biomedical. was not added until the close by User:Awilley to clarify the situation.DrChrissy (talk) 14:16, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
More quibbling? It does not inspire me to reconsider...--Jules (Mrjulesd) 15:51, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Of course it doesn't. This little exchange is typical of the Doc's behaviour with regard to his community imposed topic ban from the beginning. I see nothing to persuade me to change my opinion, expressed above. -Roxy the dog™ woof 11:02, 27 November 2015 (UTC) -
I reviewed our PAGs and couldn't find "quibbling" mentioned as a violation, much less worthy of a TB. What I do know is that casting aspersions is highly frowned upon as is baiting, harranguing and so forth. Wrongful criticism falls under that same category and may be considered a PA. DrChrissy is void of any such conduct and has simply defended himself against unwarranted allegations. Perhaps its time to more closely examine the allegations made against him to see what might be causing what some consider quibbling but is beginning to appear more like ill-will toward a GF editor's integrity rather than an attempt to resolve a real issue. Atsme📞📧 13:55, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Well that's where you're wrong, this is an attempt to resolve a real issue, that issue bring DrChrissys' problematic editing of WP:FRINGE topics. I've just noticed that ArbCom have just voted to topic ban DrChrissy from GM plants and agrichemicals [55]. To reverse their topic ban at this time would be ludicrous. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 14:41, 27 November 2015 (UTC) ──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── On the above dialogue, i do not think it's fair to represent the subject's clarification of scope of topic ban as "quibbling" and then to use that as more fuel against them, for that is a silencing sort of tactic. It must be permissible for the person in question to clarify as much as needed, until we are on the same page. I do not like phrasings and tactics that create the impression that any new words from the defendant are, in themself, further evidence against the person. It's a silencing tactic and not fair. It feels very bad to the defendant. They have a right to speak in their defense even if it's to clarify a detail. There is no limit to the amount of dialogue, as long as it's not a filibuster. Secondly, i fail to see how the GM ArbCom case's result is relevant here. Let's keep issues separate. I'm also part of the ArbCom case, and it's very complex and has its own many issues. SageRad (talk) 15:02, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

The recent ArbCom ban of DrChrissy is highly relevant, as it indicates problematic editing in WP:FRINGE topics since the community ban was enacted. It shows DrChrissy has learned little from their community ban, and has continued editing with little regard for earlier criticism. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 15:35, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
@Mrjulesd I believe you are again inaccurately misrepresenting the situation. First, there is no recent Arbcom ban of me. There is a vote in process, but no ban has been imposed and I feel it is misleading for you to state this has been done. Second, you state that the ArbCom vote "...indicates problematic editing in WP:FRINGE topics since the community ban was enacted". The evidence in the PD relates to Foie gras and Glyphosate edits. Are these "Fringe" topics? If they are not, which fringe topics are you referring to?DrChrissy (talk) 17:16, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Look I'm not going to discuss this further here, there is too much crap already in this thread. But if you're really curious you can ask me on my talk page. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 18:57, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
This is absolutely not a matter of curiosity. You have made an accusation against me and I am asking for evidence to support that. What is your evidence for my editing "fringe" articles since my topic ban, please?DrChrissy (talk) 19:18, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Can we please take some time off from hammering DrChrissy and give an uninvolved admin a chance to carefully review the SUPPORT vs OPPOSE consensus before this discussion turns into 17 pages of meritless accusations and relentless repetition? Imagine being an admin having to wade through this stuff. Jiminy Cricket. We've already explained the pros and cons, and why the ban should be lifted (which has prevailing support) or not lifted (minority view based on the initial confusion as explained by Beeblebrox above). Try walking in DrChrissy's shoes for a week while trying to be a productive editor. It's frustrating to say the least. I will repeat what Beeblebrox stated above as it defines part of the problem regarding the oppose comments: @Tryptofish: I am well aware of which topic ban we are discussing. Some commenters here have suggested that because another tban is a possible result of an ongoing arbcom case, that means this one should not be lifted. I don't think the two should be linked in that manner. I'm not sure why you thought I was talking about the lifting the arbcom tban. (which if I understand the situation correctly doesn't actually exist at this time) Beeblebrox (talk) 01:34, 21 November 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atsme (talkcontribs) 18:08, 27 November 2015‎ (UTC)

Request to close this discussion

  • Awilley, since you have been overseeing DrChrissy's TB, would you be so kind as to evaluate and close this discussion? It has turned to an ugly direction and what appears to be baiting. Atsme📞📧 13:55, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
    • It would be poor form for Awilley to close a community discussion in which they have voted. It is also poor form of you, as a supporter of lifting the topic ban, to pick a like-minded adminstrator to close this discussion, rather than just ask for someone uninvolved to close it.--Atlan (talk) 14:26, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
      • I simply thought the admin who imposed the TB had to remove it. My mistake if that isn't the case. AGF, Atlan. Atsme📞📧 14:37, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
        • You don't seem to practice what you preach, as you make a point of questioning the motives of oppose voters here.--Atlan (talk) 14:47, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────It isn't nice to cast aspersions, and it isn't wise to jump to conclusions. Please AGF and stop trying to make this discussion about me. You're being disruptive. Atsme📞📧 15:16, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Cry me a river.--Atlan (talk) 15:22, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Will an admin please evaluate and close this discussion? Atsme📞📧 14
38, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Close out

Consensus exists to lift the ban on Dr. Chrissy, can we have admin close this out noting conensus to lift the ban ? KoshVorlon 14:37, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Fixing problems caused by use of sandboxes to make multiple articles

Dear editors: Sometimes a new user writes a draft article in his/her sandbox and submits it at AfC. If it's acceptable, a reviewer will move it to mainspace; if it's a notable topic but needs work, an reviewer will move it to Draft space. In either case, a redirect remains in the sandbox so that the user can find the moved page.

The problem comes when the same user decides to repeat the process and make a new draft in the sandbox, overwriting the redirect. In that case, the redirect by the reviewer is the first edit of the new article. By this process, I am credited by X's "Articles created" tool with having written several articles for which I don't really want credit and have not worked on: Maria Rita Teresa Batalla-Laforteza, Danilo Palomer Santiago, Neuromodulation (journal), Atacama B-Mode Search, Sharmin Ali, Me Myself and I (play), Tim Drevno.

When I first noticed this, I thought that a solution would be appropriate to deleted the first edit containing the redirection in each article, leaving the real draft creator as the first live edit, but that doesn't appear to work: Dayna Steele, Palmetto Education Association, Healey Silverstone and the deleted The Europe List are all credited to me in error.

As well as me being unhappy to be seen as the creator of several of these, there is also the problem that the real creators wouldn't be notified if the pages were ever tagged for deletion. If there's this many just from my list, there must be thousands of these. Is there anything to be done about this, and should I delete the misleading edits when I come across this? Or just let it go?—Anne Delong (talk) 04:54, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

I think Twinkle uses the 'live' revisions to determine who is the page creator, so I think we can rest a little assured that at least is people use Twinkle to nominate a page for deletion, the actual creator will get a talk page message (ping This, that and the other to confirm). Regarding X!'s tool, it might be best to discuss this with whoever maintains it these days – there may be a reason why they want to credit the first editor (even if deleted) as the author. Last, am I right in understanding that you are getting notifications for these pages even after you've tidied the history to make the actual 'creator' the first editor? If so, that sounds like a bug in the software and something the devs should fix. Jenks24 (talk) 12:17, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
Whoever moves the draft into main space, if they are not an admin, could tag the draft (now just a redirect) with WP:CSD#G6. And leave a note for the submitter so they are not confused. The user could then start a new draft in the same sandbox and in theory, there would be no overlap. EdJohnston (talk) 15:30, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
Deleting redirects left by pagemoves is normally a bad idea, but when the existence of the draft causes problems, I agree that it's time for G6. Nyttend (talk) 22:56, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
If deleting is not a best practice, and the problem is overwriting the redirect in the same sandbox, what about protecting that sandbox page and require the user to use a second sandbox for future drafts? Rgrds. -- (talk) 01:41, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Curious. This seems to be a misfeature of the use of sandboxes for drafts. I don't see a request for administrative action, but maybe this should be discussed at the Help Desk or at Village pump (technical). Robert McClenon (talk) 04:37, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
One thing that *could* be done, would be to request deletion of the redirect from the article history, using a delete and selective restore. (Like a history split, but just leaving the split revision deleted) An admin could do that now, though AFAIK there isn't a policy that either permits or prohibits it. This would allow it to be fixed when a redirect creator requests, but wouldn't require any routine, pro-active work. Monty845 03:00, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Sorry for taking so long to respond; I was in a location without secure internet for two days (bluegrass festival).
  • About delete and partial restore: Yes, Monty845, this is exactly what I was inquiring about. It would be easy for me to delete the redirect from the history, but is there a consensus that this is a good idea?
  • About notifications: Jenks24, I have received several notifications about articles which I've never seen before, because they had redirects in their history of other old drafts; however, the four instances that I have found where someone has taken the time to delete the redirect are live articles, so other than nominating them for deletion I don't know how to find out if I would receive a notification. I just know that they appear on my list of articles created. That in itself is a minor thing, but if the data about article creation is used for any kind of reports or analysis it may cause inaccuracy.
  • About sandbox use: EdJohnston, Nyttend,, Robert McClenon, deleting the sandbox after a draft article is moved out of it prevents the technical problem. When I move an article, I'm given the choice not to leave a redirect, which should have the same effect. However, this causes another problem because usually it's new users who write articles in the sandbox and without redirects they may think their articles have been deleted. What would be more effective is to strongly discourage editors from writing articles in the sandbox, and suggest using either a named user subpage or page in Draft space instead. This would also save work at AfC, where the reviewers have to make up and type in the article names when they move them to Draft space. Perhaps an edit notice could be added to the sandbox edit screen saying something like "This sandbox is for experimenting. To make a draft article, click in the search box and type User:Usename/Article title". (and, sigh, create a page "User:Username/Article title" that says "Try again, but use your specific user name, and the title of the article you want to create.")—Anne Delong (talk) 07:03, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • We can always use a different rationale (e.g. "Deleting page to fix a technical problem; you article is at TITLE, and feel free to create this page again"), or we can just create the sandbox as a blank page, or we can leave a note at the user's talk page explaining what happened. Nyttend (talk) 15:33, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Purpose of sandboxes

The real problem, as I see it, is that user sandboxes are being used for two purposes that really should not overlap, and this causes at least two problems. Their primary purpose should be for experimentation. They are also secondarily being used for article creation. The problem that is discussed above is that, when they are used for article creation, and the articles are accepted, they cause weird redirects that confuse the history of articles. The other problem that I see as an Articles for Creation reviewer is that editors who are using the sandbox for test edits then submit the test edit for approval. In most such cases, I don't think that the editor meant to submit the test edit as a draft article. It becomes necessary for the reviewer to decline the submission politely, when it may never have been meant to be a submission. I would suggest that one solution would be to disable the ability to submit sandboxes to AFC. User subpages should still be capable of submission. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:39, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Sean Lynch (footballer)

After the speedy closure of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sean Lynch (footballer), which I honestly thought was a hoax, an editor claiming to be Sean Lynch has stated at User talk:Seanlynchpin that he wants his article deleted because it's interfering with his efforts to start a new career, post-sport (the article makes no mention of him being retired, so I've tagged it as outdated). I've just raised this at Wikipedia Football but really it's a procedural thing, more than a FOOTY question. This individual has cited WP:BLPDELETE. He's willing to provide proof that he is who he says he is. How can we do this in a way that also protects his privacy? Thanks, Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:19, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

I doubt he will qualify as a "low-profile" individual, given his career. Either way, he needs to interact off-wiki with WP:OTRS who will help him as best he can. Usually trying to explain it as unlikely the article will be deleted, and nominating it on his behalf if he is determined (had a few of those in my time, non were deleted). Either way not much else we can do for now. --Errant (chat!) 21:04, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks so much. I'll make sure he knows this. best, Shawn in Montreal (talk) 22:59, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Informal poll

Comments are welcome at User talk:Tryptofish#Informal advisory poll. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:31, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Need help addressing patterns of harassment

(non-admin closure) OP has gone to another venue. BMK (talk) 02:20, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I need help addressing patterns of harassment and abuse by a few editors over the past 8 months while i've been editing.

I would like to know how to take action against certain people who have been consistently abusive despite letting them know that their behavior is unacceptable, time after time, over the course of months, and they continue to engage in mocking, name-calling, distortion of dialogue to try to make me appear a fool, and the like sort of thing. Abusive behavior and even verging on gaslighting tactics. Abusive psychological tactics that are attempts to wear down the psyche of the recipient.

How can i bring this to action and get people who show consistent, uncorrectable abusive behavior banned from the editing environment?

Thank you for any help. I have read various recommendations, like posting at their talk page and the like, and trying to explain why i think their behavior is inappropriate, harmful, and not conducive to a good editing environment. It has been of no avail, and the behaviors continue. Thank you for any help on the process of how to address continuing abusive and harassing behaviors by editors. Thank you.

I will be away from the computer for a couple days but i needed to ask this question to get the best advice possible, in general terms. When i see what options there may be, then i would get more specific and take the time to document behaviors.

Thank you.

SageRad 02:21, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

First, the final authority concerning conduct is ArbCom, not AN. Your case is already pending, almost decided, by ArbCom. I haven't read all of the details, so I don't know to what extent you made the case that certain editors have engaged in the horrible behavior that you identify above. I do know that, of all of the editors who are parties to the current ArbCom case, you are the one who has the strongest consensus that you are being disruptive. Are you posting here to try to get the community to override ArbCom, or are you just engaging in your frequent pattern of raging?
Second, I have seen that you are an extremely combative editor who, at the same time, demands to be treated with great respect, and treats advice as threats, but, at the same time, will not extend the same respect to other editors. I first advised you on 9 June 2015 to pause and reconsider, that your campaign of raging against editors whom you dislike was likely to get you topic-banned or even banned. You referred to advice and warnings as "punches in the face" to you, while being perfectly willing to rage about other editors. It may be that you are right that Wikipedia is a deeply corrupt place, and that everyone else is wrong. If so, it isn't clear what you expect to gain by continuing to antagonize us. You didn't heed the caution that continued battleground editing could get you topic-banned or banned, and you are in the process of being topic-banned.
Third, take this to User talk: Jimbo Wales or to a Bit-bucket.
Fourth, it isn't clear what you are trying to accomplish with this post.
Robert McClenon (talk) 03:35, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
If this is a legitimate concern (although I have my doubts), some diffs of this alleged harassment would really help. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 04:24, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
And if this is related to the GMO case, the thread should be closed down, pronto. BMK (talk) 04:56, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Of course it is related to the GMO case. That is what User:SageRad has been focused on. What else would it be related to? Either he is trying to get the community to intervene to override the ArbCom, or he is just engaging in his usual pattern of raging that everyone who is not with him is acting in bad faith. Even if the community had the power to override the ArbCom (which is does not, because it has delegated ultimate enforcement power to ArbCom), it isn't clear why he expects any community support, when he has alienated much of the community by treating anyone who has tried to caution him as an enemy. Of course it is about the GMO case. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:43, 22 November 2015 (UTC)


Wow. Absolutely inappropriate response here. Not the way to help someone who is calling out for help from abusive behaviors. Just wow. Wow. We need an anti bullying task force. This place is being ruled by bullies. SageRad (talk) 12:06, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Dunning–Kruger effect -Roxy the dog™ woof 12:11, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Another exact example in kind. There you go. The type of behavior that needs to lead to sanctions. There is a huge problem on Wikipedia of bad dialogue and behavior. We effectively need a revolution here. We need a revolution of integrity. This is a very bad environment in which to discuss the world's knowledge and that's a serious problem. SageRad (talk) 12:23, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm sorry Sage, but you are not exempted from our behavioural Policy. -Roxy the dog™ woof 12:32, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm clearly not asking to be exempted from Wikipedia behavioral policies, and i don't see where you get that notion from. I'm asking for Wikipedia behavioral policies to be enforced in a fair and balanced way, without regard to the POV of any particular editor. I am asking for the methods by which an editor who is concerned or affected by bullying behaviors or WP:IDHT or other sorts of bad behavior can seek remedy. Wouldn't you suppose there is a clear answer to this? I've read the guidelines at WP:CIVIL and i've seen the steps recommended for dealing with problem behavior. Can you see that posting a comment that is a link to the Dunning-Kruger effect would be uncivil here? That is a disparaging remark that basically says "You think you know something but you're actually too stupid to know how stupid you are..." isn't it? Otherwise, what is the semiotic import of your comment above? SageRad (talk) 23:01, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
I've seen SageRad's talk page, and he does have a point about editors who keep posting there, telling him what they don't like, even after he has asked them to lighten up. My suggestions, in response to the opening question, would be to just not engage. You can read and delete what they post on your talk page. If someone makes a useful comment, then reply and make use of it. But if it's not useful, delete and move on. And don't go back to their user talk pages. Just steer clear. But if you do need to make a complaint, back it up with diffs. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:09, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
I would like to brush it off, but i see it being a problem for other editors, including newcomers, who stand up for content based on guidelines, and then get blocked and accused of edit warring and misrepresented and subject to WP:IDHT behavior, and the like, and sometimes it's the same editors who do this time and again, and who continue to do it. I think that we could improve the editing environment if we actually enforced standard of civility. The guidelines re well-written. I wish we would apply them consistently. We need to enforce WP:BULLY. That would help. SageRad (talk) 23:16, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Me, I'm going to stick around until the ArbCom case closes, and then I'm probably never going to edit anywhere near to GMOs again. It will be someone else's problem, and I'm not optimistic. But, given where you stand in that ArbCom case, my advice would be to focus on your own well-being, rather than on trying to protect new editors. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:22, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
(ec)Why don't you just ask editors who are antagonizing you that they are not welcome to post on your talk page? If they don't respect your request, they can be warned and might even be blocked if they continue.
Because it's not just about my talk page. It's about bullying behaviors everywhere, especially in article talk pages. SageRad (talk) 23:29, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Generally, when I see people talking about me on talk pages and not pinging me, inviting me to participate, I just read what they say and then ignore them. A lot of getting along with people is knowing when to stand up for yourself and when to not take things personally. You have to choose which issues/actions you want to take on and, for me, petty remarks don't rank very high on my list of conduct on Wikipedia to get upset about. I don't like it but I doubt there is a single editor here who doesn't dislike some aspect of editing on Wikipedia. Liz Read! Talk! 23:25, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. I wish there to be a friendly editing environment for everyone, everywhere, so that people don't feel excluded from any topic areas. SageRad (talk) 23:29, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
No, certainly not "many" and certainly not "all" editors who are a problem in terms of bullying behavior are under consideration for sanctions in the ArbCom case, but what i am "complaining" about is not individuals, but a behavior that makes for a negative editing environment. SageRad (talk) 23:54, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Sage, you're dealing with people whose skin has turned white from never seeing the sun. And if they could, they would upload their minds on to the Internet without thinking twice. They just don't have the human social skills you expect them to have, and that's why you feel disrespected and attacked. Complaining about this is like yelling about the sun being hot and water being wet. It's even worse with newer generations, as they all but stopped talking and reading. Welcome to the machine, my son. Viriditas (talk) 02:00, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Geez, I just love your welcoming, collaborative attitude. That is what SageRad was looking for, not editors taking potshots at others. I guess you missed his/her point about wanting Wikipedia to be a more friendly environment towards all editors. Liz Read! Talk! 19:02, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Interesting concept...a Utopian Wikipedia. Atsme📞📧 20:13, 23 November 2015 (UTC)


I am somewhat puzzled as to what User:SageRad is asking of the community here, unless it is to override the ArbCom (which isn't the way the community and the ArbCom work). If the bullying of which SageRad is complaining has to do with genetically modified organisms, which it probably does, then that was within the scope of the ArbCom case. I just looked at the ArbCom case, and I see that SageRad did not present evidence and did not offer a workshop proposal. SageRad is now on the way to a topic-ban, and one arbitrator has mentioned a site-ban. Having failed to use that forum, maybe SageRad is now forumshopping, or maybe just raging. Wikipedia does have a few editors who habitually complain of bullying. Occasionally there is bullying, but more often there is a perception of bullying by combative editors. In any case, SageRad failed to present the case about bullying at ArbCom. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:48, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

My advice to SageRad is to withdraw this thread so as to avoid the boomerang, because if SageRad continues complaining, I will propose a boomerang site ban. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:48, 23 November 2015 (UTC)


Robert McClenon, none of these things are what i am doing here. I was asking for the best advice of the community about how to deal with behaviors that i've seen and also been part of, that the more i think about it feel like bullying. I've seen this around, happening to some other editors, and when i step in for a moment and advocate on behalf of the person who appears to be being bullied, it comes as a good relief to them, and often helps to untie the knot. I would offer that bullying is a complex set of behaviors, and it's rather subjective though there are some strong common themes. It's a sort of intimidation, knocking-down of self-esteem, trying to make the person think they don't know what's right or what's real, or that they don't know how Wikipedia works, and some sorts of veiled threats, chilling language, repeated insertions of non-helpful dialogue that seems only to be meant to mock or denigrate... this sort of thing. It's not a single incident, and often bullies have a talent for making it rather hard to detect by outside people, but only felt by the recipient or very observant outsiders. Similar things happen in abusive relationships with partners. I see some of these dynamics in Wikipedia and i was wondering how it's best dealt with.

I would suggest that i'm not "complaining" (a word you used three times) for that is a loaded word for speaking what i have to say. I would also suggest that the existence of ArbCom or my status there is not relevant to this question here. I am not forum shopping, either. I'm seriously here to ask this question that i asked, and anything else is imputing motives to me that are not here. I would also suggest that mentioning of boomerangs is a chilling sort of thing to say when someone is asking for advice about a sensitive thing. I have the strength to stand through these aspects of your comment, but some might not, if they come asking for help in a case of bullying.

Lastly, i suggest that your comment about "perception of bullying" not being bullying is complex. In one sense, some people could be more sensitive than others. That doesn't automatically make them wrong, or make mild abusive behavior any more allowable. In another sense, bullying is indeed all about perception and that's how some people do intentionally play it out. Some people are very skilled at knowing their victim, and making remarks that they know will cause pain in their victim and yet will be mostly undetected by others who might bring consequences to themselves.

I would like to keep this section active for at least 12 more hours or so and then probably would close it. So far, i think that i have gotten an answer, which is that this noticeboard, at least today, didn't have much to offer in regard to how to deal with editors who are felt to be bullying or abusive in their behavior in subtle but long-term ways. In fact, it led to people saying that i was "complaining" and saying that i was probably wrong and making things up, and even more abusive comments such as that one about Dunning–Kruger effect. That's really the opposite of what i would hope for. It would be better if nobody had answered at all, than the negative things that were said.

I understand that i did not bring any specific case here, because i wanted to ask about general principles and practices. It might be different if there were a specific case, but i hoped that there would be some friendly and helpful advice. Given what i have felt upon asking about general methods and thoughts, do you think i ought to feel comfortable coming here for resolution to any specific cases?

In fact, the more i think about it, you have actually said, in so many words here, that if i don't shut up, you will try to site-ban me, I think that is what i hear.

As this is the Administrator's Noticeboard already, where would i go if i had an issue to resolve about that? SageRad (talk) 21:14, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Closure Request

The OP has taken this to Village pump (idea lab), a better place for the discussion. Will an uninvolved administrator please close this thread? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:21, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rescinding unused community sanctions: WP:GS/MMA

The "mixed martial arts" community discretionary sanctions have not been enforced for nearly three years, the last enforcement action having taken place in January 2013. The last notification was issued on 30 October 2014, more than a year ago. It is quite clear that these sanctions are not needed, and I believe that most in the community would agree that sanctions such as these should only remain in place if they are needed. Therefore, I propose that the authorisation for these sanctions be revoked by the community. RGloucester 07:02, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Support with no prejudice to re-imposing if problems resume. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:43, 21 November 2015 (UTC).
  • Support; unused sanctions are comparatively easy to misuse for gotcha purposes. Nyttend (talk) 00:11, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment: I don't frequent these pages, but occasionally come across them as a Pending Changes Reviewer, and I've seen enough questionable (i.e. vandalism-type) edits on these kinds of articles that I am somewhat concerned at the idea of rolling back the sanctions. But I'm no expert... --IJBall (contribstalk) 01:11, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Discretionary sanctions don't do anything to combat vandalism or one-off IP edits. They exist to counter disruptive editing by established editors. I do not see how retaining sanctions that have not been enforced since January 2013 will help to combat any kind of vandalism you've noticed. RGloucester 01:14, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support There was a period when not a week went by that MMA wasn't a topic on ANI. It looks like the threat of discretionary sanctions being handed down quieted things significantly. On a side note, although there are no active sanctions for MMA, I would propose that a caveat be introduced to future discussions about vacating discretionary sanctions in other areas. By community agreement, discretionary sanctions are vacated for X topic area. However, any active sanctions will remain in force until their expiration date or successfully appealed. Alternatively, the community could see fit to repeal all active sanctions if it feels that sufficient time has elapsed. Blackmane (talk) 02:26, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support We're not using it, therefore we don't need it. Rescind it.KoshVorlon 12:05, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Admin close out requested

Can we have an admin close this out as suppoprted, there are no opposers and no one else has commented since 11/23/2015. KoshVorlon 14:39, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

admin run amok

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Too many frivolous complaints. IP, please find some other form of amusement besides disrupting Wikipedia. Jehochman Talk 16:21, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Anthony Bradbury (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) Deleted Talk:Main Page/Archive 25 some time ago and never restored it. Please block him and remove his rights — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:59, 21 November 2015‎ (UTC)

Or perhaps we could just ask him about it [60]? Not nearly as melodramatic, of course, but likely to resolve the problem. NE Ent 15:07, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
You has no brains. Main Page/Archive 25 was deleted by him legitimately but he also deleted its talk page in the process, showing his sheer incompetence! — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:19, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it looks like when he (correctly) deleted the page he also deleted the talk page. Simple mistake – I restored it for you. Prodego talk 15:22, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
@NE Ent: and if ye didnt notice, his talk page is protected. How could i have just asked him? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:31, 21 November 2015‎ (UTC)
Log into whatever account you are block-evading from. GiantSnowman 15:33, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
ich did not notice, it has has no pp template; another valid point, which I have asked him about. Incidentally, WP:CIR is for editors, WP:NOTPERFECT is the standard for admins. NE Ent 15:57, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
This is pretty easy to do. On pages in namespaces other than the user namespace, if you delete the page and it has an existing talk page, you get a big red warning telling you about it. You can see it at MediaWiki:Deletedtext. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 15:34, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

he blocked KawaiiCheese^-^ and said on her talk page that "You have been blocked temporarily" but if you look at block log, you'll find he was blocked permanently, this shows Bradbury as a blatant liar — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:29, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

He used the wrong block template, big whoop, easily done. GiantSnowman 15:33, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Personal attacks on the other hand are not honest mistakes. Please refrain from name calling and unsubstantiated accusations if you want to participate in Wikipedia We also don't think much of axe grinding. HighInBC 15:39, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

sorry, i dont believe in wiki-lawyering. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:04, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Refraining from incivility is called "wiki-lawyering" now? LjL (talk) 16:07, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

And what's with these two streaks of U5 deletions? Given the narrow scope of CSD U5, i doubt if the deletions are really valid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:02, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, checking out one of them leads me to think those are likely legit.NE Ent 16:10, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


I've just declined an unblock request here from Mishae (talk · contribs). By a strict reading, I could theoretically be considered WP:INVOLVED as I once had quite a snappy exchange with Mishae after I proposed an article he'd written for deletion; per my comment on his talk, I explicitly abrogate the wheel-warring clause regarding my decline, if anyone feels this is an unblock request that ought to be accepted. ‑ iridescent 10:28, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Good decline. --John (talk) 10:47, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Horrible decline. You were involved and you had no business declining. Caden cool 10:56, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Good decline. Mishae is fond of mouthing pretty words and sweeping generalizations and then after being unblocked going off and doing whatever the hell he pleases, including disruption, incivility, general incompetence, and outright deception. His last edit summary before TPA was revoked was so vile it had to be revdelled. Softlavender (talk) 11:42, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
  • I had to deal with some of Mishae's behavior in insect articles and finally got a large number of vandalism-like edits fixed (removing Wikiproject tags from thousands of articles even when the project said they should remain). Coupled with attacking editors who disagree with their edits and overall demeanor described above, the unblock decline is very appropriate considering the history of going right back to the problem behaviors. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:34, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Ah Mishae. I wondered why this name was so familiar especially after a quick refresher from the ANI back in April. I had made a comment at the time with the intention of joining the discussion but a job and city move prevented me. Reading back over his unblock requests, I get the sense that he never has truly understood what it was he was blocked for. While we should give all editors regardless of race, religion, creed, or ability the benefit of the doubt when it comes to contributing, there comes a time when we have to say enough disruption is enough especially when it's impacting the editing health of other editors. The needs of one cannot be placed above those of the many. @Mishae: your inability to fully understand the circumstances that led to your block are the reason why many, including myself, will endorse your continued block. This has never been about your disability, just your inability. Blackmane (talk) 02:15, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • I didnt realise being racist was a disability... While technically having a past disagreement with an editor might fall foul of the involved (as you dealt with them in a negative manner on a content issue) I would hardly say it disqualifies you completely. Otherwise, decline is fine given their patten of behaviour. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:48, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Good decline. I can't see that INVOLVED is part of the equation. That said, at the risk of being INVOLVED I've just warned Mishae that he's verging on TPA withdrawal again. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:52, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3 closed

This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:

  1. All anonymous IP editors and accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure are prohibited from editing any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. This prohibition may be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of Pending Changes, and appropriate edit filters.
  2. Uninvolved administrators are encouraged to monitor the articles covered by discretionary sanctions in the original Palestine-Israel case to ensure compliance. To assist in this, administrators are reminded that:
  • Accounts with a clear shared agenda may be blocked if they violate the sockpuppetry policy or other applicable policy;
  • Accounts whose primary purpose is disruption, violating the policy on biographies of living persons, or making personal attacks may be blocked indefinitely;
  • There are special provisions in place to deal with editors who violate the BLP policy;
  • Administrators may act on clear BLP violations with page protections, blocks, or warnings even if they have edited the article themselves or are otherwise involved;
  • Discretionary sanctions permit full and semi-page protections, including use of pending changes where warranted, and – once an editor has become aware of sanctions for the topic – any other appropriate remedy may be issued without further warning.
For the Arbitration Committee, Miniapolis 16:49, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Palestine-Israel articles 3 case closed

Please see related discussion here: Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_page_protection#WP:ARBPIA3_and_protection --NeilN talk to me 19:25, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Urgent fix needed

Hey all,

Can an awake admin please action Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2015/MassMessage#points asap please? I hoped to get the first batch of these rolling this morning! Thanks, Mdann52 (talk) 07:33, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Not exactly awake, but Yes check.svg Done anyway. -- zzuuzz (talk) 07:43, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Anonymous vandalism in the article Automotive industry in the Soviet Union

Fully protected for three days, pls go to the talk page and follow available dispute resolution avenues.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:50, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recently, I improved the article with new and sourced information, new models, higher resolution photos in accordance with WP:CARPIX (most of them are of the highest quality and the cars depicted are in excellent condition, the majority of them being in possession of museums or private collections) and wrote entire paragraphs about the history of automotive industry in Czarist Russia, but some vandal (Pashko), who hasn't contributed anything to the article, is making attempts to remove all the edits, delete all my text and sources as well as a number of models that I have added (including the original export models that were sold in Europe) and change some of the photos to those of battered, dirty or ugly-looking cars (e.g. this high-quality photo of a Riva estate/VAZ-2104 [61] was changed to [62]. Another excellent photo [63] was replaced with a 3D image [64], etc.). As I'm going to improve the article even further and provide more information and sources, I need you to take measures against his anonymous vandalism.

Here is an example of how (Pashko) deleted my entire text with all the references: [65] Eriba-Marduk (talk) 09:04, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

This user Eriba-Marduk simply deleted images and information that I added, used images which do not match the models in the description, refers to unreliable sources and so on [66]. So I hope you will stop this vandalism. Pashko (talk) 15:40, 23 November 2015

Stop lying and repeating my own words to the Administration, it is a futile effort. I referred to articles and books such as Kelly, M. A. Russian Motor Vehicles: The Czarist Period 1784 to 1917. Veloce Publishing, Poundbury, 2009, added information and photos related to the automotive industry of the Russian Empire, yet you have deleted virtually everything without saying a word on the Talk page. That is defined as vandalism here and won't be left unnoticed. All the photos that I have posted are of real cars, mostly export versions, which can be found in museums and private collections alike. Every photo does match the description, most of them are almost completely identical to old Avtoexport Ads & Commercials. For example, this is an export version of the VAZ-2106/Lada-1600 as depicted in an old advertisement: [67] (for other Soviet-era photos of the same car, see: [68]). And this is the photo of the Lada-1600 that I have published in the article and that you've been trying to remove: [69]. Needless to say, the car on my photo is identical to the previous one; it was built in 1978 and hasn't been customised since then. My photo of the VAZ-2110/Lada-110 [70], which you have also removed, shows a Lada-110 being featured at the auto show in Geneva, 2005, right next to official AvtoVAZ representatives, and something is telling me that they knew for sure whether their product matched its own description or not. The GAZ-GL1 was built in 1938 and 1940 as a sports car based on the GAZ-M1 chassis, set a speed record in 1940 and was a notable car both for GAZ and the Soviet automobile industry in general, therefore it should be mentioned in the text. [71].
That said, I urge you not to damage the article anymore. Eriba-Marduk (talk) 14:18, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't konow where can I reply. I need to protect myself from untruthful and arrogant words of this user Eriba-Marduk. Even if you refer to this "reliable" source [72] you can see that only 3 (!) prototypes were produced. In this case anyone can add any prototype produced in the Soviet or post-Soviet time. At the same time you deleted GAZ-61 [73] produced in 1940-1945. Images you added do not match the models in the description. Example this cabrio version of ZiS-110B [74] do not match limousine version [75] and years of production differ. Same with export models of Lada vehicles vs. domestic market models produced in different years. Pashko (talk) 21:30, 23 November 2015

I have already replied to all this on your talk page. Do not modify closed discussions. Eriba-Marduk (talk) 21:58, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

New essay

Wikipedia:Administrators' best practices.

I wrote this essay with hopes in exploring in essay-form how certain admin practices look and feel to non-admins with advice offered to admins on how to handle certain controversial interactions.

jps (talk) 12:07, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I suppose it had occurred to you that administrators edited here without the tools before they became administrators? Tiderolls 16:48, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Of course. Not all experience the full range of possibilities of what it's like to interact with an administrator as a non-administrator, though. Many administrators have never experienced what it's like to be blocked, for example. And many after becoming administrators forget what it's like not to be an administrator. jps (talk) 00:17, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Well that's generally because they haven't done something necessitating a block. It's amusing when these essays come up for two reasons. Firstly, blocks aren't common for regular editors, and it's hypothetically it's quite hard to get multiple blocks; getting more than 10 blocks is a pretty major feat which, I'd say, demonstrates more about the editor in question than the trail of admins. The second point is, yes, blocks are unpleasant for the person receiving them that's the point. --Errant (chat!) 09:27, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. It does seem to be rather WP:PUNISHing, I'd argue. jps (talk) 15:21, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Not at all. The point isn't to make you feel bad because you made a mistake. The point is to put an effective barrier in the way to stop whatever problematic activity is happening. The fact that that barrier is unpleasant has no bearing on whether it is punishment or not (real world example; mother tells daughter she must stop editing wikipedia until she finishes her homework (unpleasant, preventative). After finishing homework daughter is still barred from editing because she didn't do her homework first. (unpleasant, punitive). To cast it in like-for-like; someone causing disruption on Wikipedia is being unpleasant and will not stop, they are served with an unpleasant situation which forces them to stop. Of course, it should be used in modicum, but then it most always is.... --Errant (chat!) 15:41, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
The point of the block is then not to be unpleasant to the blocked user but rather the unpleasantness is a side-effect which cannot be avoided. That's rather a different sense than saying: "blocks are unpleasant for the person receiving them that's the point". One could imagine a hypothetical utopian sci-fi vision of a wiki-based encyclopedia where instead of blocking problematic users administrators were somehow able to refer the problematic useraccounts to a simulacrum where the problematic behaviors would only be acted out against a simulated community and the "blocked" user would never realize their isolation from the actual encyclopedia. In such an example, the "blocked" user would not feel unpleasantness but the point of the block would still be achieved. jps (talk) 16:09, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

The essay presumes (accurately) that any action an administrator does will be perceived wrongly (which is accurate, just not the way intended I'm certain) so I'm not sure what the lesson there is. The issue is WP:INVOLVED actions, not all actions (unless you're dealing with jerks). For example, page protection will result in a WP:WRONGVERSION complaining only if the editors involved want it to be that way. Else, most editors with sense may not agree with the version protected but will actually then focus on the talk page discussion rather than fighting with the admin who protected the page as if the admin did it out of personal spite or whatever. It's nice but I'm not sure what's new with it. The bigger problem we have is with admins who shy away from doing anything (and I've fallen into that habit) due to the absolute antagonism you get no matter what you do. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:33, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

WP:ADMINANTAGONISM might be another useful essay. I think that this one speaks at least a little bit to why such things occur. The most adroit administrators might find ways around being viewed that way while still helping to solve problems. I don't know, I don't have the bit. I am attempting to describe how certain admin actions may be negatively perceived by those who don't have the bit and are on the receiving end of such actions. It isn't really meant to be an admonition not to do such actions (the whole point of becoming an admin is that you are trusted to do such actions, after all). It's merely to explain how doing certain actions in certain ways can lead to certain problems and to offer certain alternatives that I've seen work. jps (talk) 15:21, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
I don't think you realize that most admin actions are not based on some prior interactions with the editors. While there is a drop in admins, there are still far many admins than regular editors here (especially since admins aren't supposed to be using their tools when involved). For example, if I review WP:RFPP, there's a request for page protection. As I said above, no matter what version I chose to protect, someone could be angry about that. If your solution is that admins should, instead of actually using the tools, try to "help solve the problem" without it, you're suggesting what, I post on the talk page that the people there shouldn't edit war? If I don't use the tools, all I've done is remove the report, post (possibly again) on the talk page and then we'll wait and see what happens. The person who reported it to RFPP is now angry at the admin for not acting. If they stop, no one really needed an admin in the first place. If they don't, there really may be no solution other than protecting the page and forcing them to discuss it. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:39, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
There may be no solution to the problem you describe, and the essay does not say, "don't use page protection tools". Instead, the essay tries to describe the very problem you are outlining. It tries to identify, as you are doing, what the consequences are and how page protection can set up a kind of power dynamic for better or worse. We can all name examples where administrators protected pages after editing the pages and the edge cases of what makes someone "involved" or not constitute megabytes worth of textual analysis on this site. This history necessarily causes problems between administrators and non-administrators. Who knows? Maybe someone smarter than you or I will come up with solutions to the problems, and it is my hope that this essay can serve as a place where these problems are described in clear terms. jps (talk) 14:20, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Request topic ban for CheckersBoard

CheckersBoard has combined agenda-based editing along with making inept edits on André Marin. Request that any topic ban include Ontario Ombudsman. Highlights from this post:

  • In addition the speedy deletion tag was removed against wiki rules.
  • article relies too heavily on primary and secondary sourcing
  • Currently stands as more of a hagiography and job application than a topic worthy of encyclopaedic entry
  • topic might be better as a blog elsewhere

All this about a version far from flattering. [76]

Editing ineptness: [77], [78], [79] (note edit summaries) [80], [81] (caused by own doing)

Content ineptness: [82], [83], [84] (material is already in relatively short article)

Lack of awareness of good content practices despite discussion: [85], [86], [87]

Agenda based editing: [88], [89], [90], [91] Note the wiping out of Marin's name. This series of edits is like removing all the policy content from Presidency of Barack Obama (leaving the criticism), moving it to President of the United States, and wiping Obama's name.

Plenty of warnings on user's talk page [92] including a block from me before I got involved with trying to prevent content damage. Edit summaries here are indicative of responses. --NeilN talk to me 17:46, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Support I first became involved on the Marin page last month when I expanded the article with sourcing and better layout. It looks like CheckersBoard has been involved with the page for around a year, and there has been some suggestion about CB having a COI on the topic: [93]. A look at the page history for Andre Marin shows the repeated COI/unproductive editing, and frequent reverts by a number of different editors. CB has received over a dozen warnings on his talk page about editing on Marin and Ontario Ombudsman and has made no efforts to improve his edits or try to discuss these issues on the talk page. FuriouslySerene (talk) 19:04, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support based on apparent lack of reading comprehension alone. After being reverted by NeilN, CheckersBoard posted about it on the talk page, apparently under the impression that the information was being removed for being undue. I replied that the information was already present, yet minutes later, they re-added the information to the article without any acknowledgement of the talk page discussion. The agenda-based edits posted by NeilN are also quite concerning. Unless CheckersBoard acknowledges that they are causing problems with this sort of editing, they should stay away from the topic entirely. clpo13(talk) 19:15, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
  • This is a long-term problem, and multiple editors (including myself) have tried in vain to get Checkersboard to understand (and edit within) wikipedia guidelines. It's unfortunate, but there has just been too much disruption caused by this editor. Reluctantly support the proposed topic ban. Fyddlestix (talk) 13:46, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Problematic category

I think this category is bogus and baseless. Because those persons only share a similar last name not kinship. They're not from a specific clan or family. They're not related to each other. It's similar if we create a "Johnson family" category and then add it to articles of people who have Johnson as a their last name. --Zyma (talk) 20:18, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Zyma, if you believe a category should be deleted, make a proposal for deletion at Categories for discussion. These kind of cases are discussed there every day. Liz Read! Talk! 20:27, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Okay. Thanks. --Zyma (talk) 20:34, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Policy question: is it permissible to edit for pay from an IP address?

WP:COIDISCLOSEPAY says "Editors who are compensated for their contributions must disclose their employer, client and affiliation with respect to any paid contributions, on their main user page, the talk page accompanying any paid contributions (articles, drafts etc), or, if the talk page can not be used, in edit summaries." IP editors usually don't have a user page, and if they have a shared IP address, it's not really meaningful to have one. So what's policy when an paid editor edits from an IP address, and discloses their affiliation in edit comments or the article talk page?

This has come up twice recently in two independent cases, WP:COIN#William_Morris_IP_editor_or_editors and WP:AN/I#PAYTALK. It's thus a real policy question. In both cases, paid editing was disclosed on talk pages or edit summaries, but multiple IP addresses were involved.

On the one hand, Wikipedia does try to be "the encyclopedia anyone can edit", and while IP editors do face some restrictions, they're allowed to do most things. On the other hand, paid editing from IP addresses is hard to monitor, and makes checking for COI problems more difficult. It is to some extent gaming the system in the WP:GAME sense.

So, what's the consensus on this? Thanks. John Nagle (talk) 23:50, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of the practicality of enforcing this, the wording is "editors who..." not "accounts who...", so I don't see why this wouldn't apply. Sam Walton (talk) 23:52, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
If the policy explicitly states that disclosure in edit summaries is appropriate when other systems fail (which they easily do for changing/shared IP addresses), then what's wrong with doing exactly that? LjL (talk) 23:54, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Spam links disguised as references

It has come to my attention that an editor from the subnet has taken to spamming a specific commercial real estate website disguised as a reference, complete with <REF> tags. This concern has already been raised at MediaWiki There are presently 480 links back to this website at the moment, with new links being inserted or reinserted daily. What is the easiest way to remove these links? Regards, Yamaguchi先生 (talk) 02:15, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm certain getting it blacklisted with get them removed. Isn't there a bot that does it? Try WP:BOTREQUESTS perhaps. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:37, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Add any sites you think are spam here. If they are indeed spam links, a bot can remove existing ones, as Ricky mentions. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 12:00, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Getting it blacklisted will not by itself get them removed, although of course someone could write a bot (or adjust one) to have that done. Nyttend (talk) 14:07, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
I've hardblocked both /24 ranges for one year for ref spamming. The contribs for 2015 out of both ranges were primarily that. These may need to be removed by hand.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 14:24, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
The good news (relatively speaking) is that some of the spam is focussed in single articles (several of them in 1 article with 1 edit), and can be easily undone with 1 click. GermanJoe (talk) 15:02, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, Berean Hunter. As I noted here, I don't dare perform rangeblocks without someone else providing the precise range, lest I block nobody or block half the Internet by accident. Nyttend (talk) 16:54, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
No problem. We've been busy and removed these links. I did see other IPs so we will have to be looking for it until someone adds it to the blacklist. (This search). This is blocked user DurianProperty and I also hardblocked a third range, one year.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 17:36, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
I was not aware of the master account dating back to June 2015. I see that all five hundred spam links have been removed and will follow up periodically using the LinkSearch tool until the domain has been added to the blacklist. Thank you Berean Hunter and all others for your assistance. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 (talk) 20:27, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
You know, sometimes, we all can be so efficient when the damage is of an obvious nature. Liz Read! Talk! 23:32, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Domain blacklisted. MER-C 20:54, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

WP:SNOW close request

Snow shoes, sledges and skis deployed Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:20, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

We've got an article essentially ready to go for WP:ITN, but it's also got an active AFD, can we get someone to WP:SNOW close the afd so we can proceed with getting it on the main page? See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2015 Russian Sukhoi Su-24 shootdown. Thanks! --Jayron32 14:11, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jamie Woodruff

Could I get some more admin eyes on this article, which is about a computer security hacker who has been wheeled out to give opinions on various cyber-attacks here and there. I have a nasty feeling he's crossed swords with über-misogynist Noel Biderman and good old LulzSec, and that sounds like a recipe for disaster (at least on an unprotected BLP). I've put the article up for AfD but I'm fighting a losing battle with IPs either vandalising or removing content for spurious reasons. I've semi-protected the article for 3 days and directed people towards the AfD, and am pretty confident that this and this absolves me from being WP:INVOLVED, but it never hurts to get other people to check over these things. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:12, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

How eeeeevil of you. I decided to punish you by unprotecting it and then reprotecting it myself for an appropriate period of time...which happens to be exactly the period of time you picked :-) Nyttend (talk) 14:18, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
A little bit more research reveals Jamie Woodruff tweeted about the Orangemoody sockfarm - I knew I felt something fishy. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:56, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Balkans issue

The Boka Star article was recently nominated for deletion by Loesorion with the rationale This article was created by user who had similar content removed from M-87 Orkan page. He created this article for personal purposes and it contains false information. After creation he linked this article with M-87 Orkan page were same content was deleted after Talk. I'm not interested in the original shape of the article or any dispute that there may be between Loesorion and Bobrayner. The article has been improved by a number of editors (including myself) and the fact that the ship was involved in arms running is borne out by sources. With this edit, Loesorion claimed he had Deleted and corrected false information from article. This is not the case. The reference "nca" does indeed verify fuel for SCUDS and also parts for the Orkan rocket. The seebiz webpage that was deleted as a reference verifies the sale of the ship to Splitska Plovibda. I reverted the edit and raised the issue on the article's talk page. It seems to me that Loesorion is trying to push his particular POV in this dispute, despite sources verifying a situation opposite to his view. I have warned him via the article's talk page not to do so. As the vessel served with Balkan countries, are there any discretionary sanctions that can be applied to the article? Advice would be appreciated please. Mjroots (talk) 16:19, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

For inof, Loesorion has reverted me. I'm not going to get involved in an edit war over this, but have explained my position at talk:Boka Star. Mjroots (talk) 21:22, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Block of Thewolfchild

I blocked Thewolfchild earlier along with Cassianto after I saw them still at it. TWC's edit summary contained a petty attack and it was clear that both were trying to bait each other. Later, after going back and looking further in TWC's history, I see that he had criticized me on Liz's talk page. I want to report that here because otherwise that could look like that had something to do with his block. I'm not sure why I was mentioned there as I only reformatted the thread originally at ANI and mentioned that but otherwise wasn't involved in that case. The criticism had nothing to do with the block but in all fairness to TWC and for the sake of prudence, I would like others to review the situation and remedy if necessary. Thank you,
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 19:58, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Legitimate block. I saw the baiting and general IDHT on Liz's talkpage and was preparing to do the same thing if it continued. ‑ iridescent 20:18, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
I got flack for simply closing an ANI discussion that was clearly over when all parties received 48 hour blocks. But MSGJ got the brunt of the IDHT treatment despite their patient explanation on why the three editors received blocks for edit warring. At a certain point, you find yourself just repeating yourself. Liz Read! Talk! 23:27, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Looks fine. Legit block, they absolutely don't seem to be able to disengage and move on. Lots of rage flying around. --Errant (chat!) 20:32, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
  • A sensible response. Being criticized does not make you involved, if it did then it would be pretty simple for a user to make any admin they wanted to "involved". HighInBC 20:37, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Legitimate block - and even rather lenient all things considered. I'm also surprised that Cassianto hasn't already been blocked a long time ago. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 21:10, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
  • I saw this and thought of this - should Cassianto bring his duelling pistols, or his swords? Anyway, this is okay as a cool down block, but for a week? Can we please shorten it to 24 hours? They're making themselves hot and bothered but not actually disrupting any other bit of the encyclopedia. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 21:27, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
  • We generally don't block to let someone "cool down". Given that the dispute between the two users has been going on for weeks now I don't think 24 hours is going to be significant. HighInBC 22:16, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
  • I think we're just going to have to accept we have different views on blocks and that's just the way of the world. I guess my stance comes from stopping my kids from quarrelling with each other, I can't "block" them! Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 22:19, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Well when I was a kid and being a little shit I was sent to my room. If I was really bad I was sent to my parents room(no toys there). HighInBC 22:32, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Good block. And you only got sent to your room? You got it light. I used to get a thrashing with a bamboo switch, or a feather duster, or a ruler or even an open hand. Nothing teaches a rowdy consequences as fast as a thrashing. Blackmane (talk) 00:37, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Thankfully my parents took a more modern approach. HighInBC 00:40, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, well, I got whupped with a piece of rebar while I was walking 5 miles to school through the snow. And when I asked to have the Rolling Stones play at my 16th birthday party, my parents just sneered and booked Herman's Hermits instead. BMK (talk) 00:42, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at 6:00 in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of hot gravel, work 20 hour day at mill for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky! Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:09, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Note: I have removed talk page access from Thewolfchild as they were using their talk page to further provoke Cassianto. As always my actions are open to review. HighInBC 00:51, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Given my and MSGJ's experiences, HighInBC, I'm pretty sure you will face questions once this block expires. Liz Read! Talk! 01:28, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
If you look at my talk page you will see I am no stranger to that sort of thing. I am always happy to answer questions. HighInBC 01:30, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
I saw this brewing on your talk page, Liz and the sad thing is that there is a long history of this sort of thing from this editor. See the last block review discussion for reference. I do not understand how the mentoring that this user was supposed to be receiving from TParis has been allowed to be twisted into such a mockery of itself without comment. Obviously both parties to this particular set of blocks are in the wrong, and the blocks are warranted, but I think this situation needs to be monitored. It's only possible to look the other way and kick the can down the road spooling out more and more WP:ROPE for so long. Severely anti-collegial behavior doesn't only make the perpetrator look like a fool, it drives away good editors who have to suffer the abuse. -Thibbs (talk) 01:58, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Well, if they do their IDHT thing again, they'll be blocked again. BTW, I also advocate some leniency for Cassianto here, who is much more of a net positive and (Redacted). Drmies (talk) 03:55, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
    @Drmies: advocate leniency for one party by all means, but probably better not to insult the other party ;) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:12, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
  • If we're going to redact that we got a long way to go. And if we're going to be picky, I think blocking someone and removing talk page access is a much bigger "insult" than a few mild words. Drmies (talk) 15:06, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
  • An indignity perhaps, but not an insult. The thing to keep in mind is that people are perfectly capable of being insulted at something that was not an insult. HighInBC 03:25, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Requesting review of block on

Block endorsed, unblock request declined. Drmies (talk) 03:48, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(moved from ANI)

I'm requesting additional editors to review my block of (talk · contribs · WHOIS). This is my second block of the user. After the first block, I tried explaining policies and guidelines. Either I was not clear, or they were incapable of understanding. They eventually asked me to leave their talk page, which I did - with the stipulation that should they continue the disruption I would block them again; although I'll leave it to someone else to notify the IP of this ANI discussion.

At this point, they are claiming I am involved and biased - which is why I'm requesting a review of the current block.

The dispute is related to WP:BLPNAME, WP:CONSENSUS, as well as a liberal dose of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. The user has since blanked their talk page; but the discussion can be found in the history of user talk:, as well as in the discussion at Talk:Michael Ealy. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 04:55, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

I notified them. Made no comment on the unblock request but IDIDNTHEARTHAT does seem to apply. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 07:44, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Good block. Honestly, you guys over at Michael Ealy have been more patient with this IP than I probably would have been. WP:BLPNAME is pretty clear that including the names of minor, non-notable family members should be strongly discouraged, and ignoring both policy and the consensus of about half-a-dozen other editors on this is clearly disruptive. --IJBall (contribstalk) 08:15, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Good Block Multiple comments made to this IP editor on his and on article talk-page are correct and explicit. --Anthony Bradbury"talk" 10:47, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Not so sure, Barek refers to consensus on the talk page of Michael Ealy, but there appears to be no consensus on that talk page at all prior to his comment. I'm aware of BLPName, and I'm aware it states that caution should be used when mentioning the names of star's children. Typically, it's been used to keep them out if there's nothing notable about them. I'm also aware it's decided (usually) on a case-by-case basis, that being the case, I don't see a consensus prior to Barke's post, I've checked the page over from beginning to end , and see no archives where a consensus existed, so honestly, the IP's addition should have been discussed, consensus reached, then if the consensus was against him, by all means, block him. KoshVorlon 11:55, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
The discussion on the article talk page was started after the IP's sixth edit to the article. Two edits later, they were up to eight attempts to add variations on the same material, the last four of which were within 24 hour period, and all having been reverted by seven different editors. In addition to the article talk page, the edits were also discussed on the IP's talk page and the talk page of some of those who reverted. -- Barek (talkcontribs) - 13:21, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
  • A reasonable response to the situation. HighInBC 15:21, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Block reasonable Admin concerned clear and incisive. Well done! -Roxy the dog™ woof 15:28, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Hear, hear. Drmies (talk) 03:48, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

False, disparaging claims by Admin Kudpung

Kudpung has apologized. — Earwig talk 08:23, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In answer to question 7 on his ACE questions page [94] Kudpung has stated that "I'm not especially quick on the trigger and I don't recall being among the dozen or so different admins who have blocked you, for example." This is hardly surprising since I have a clean block log.

I would like an apology (not a simple refactoring) of equal prominence. I am asking for it here as I am unable to communicate directly with @Kudpung:, having been asked some years ago to avoid his talk page. Leaky Caldron 07:57, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

There's many a slip twixt cup and lip. Sorry, but with so many lies and disparaging comments being made about me in an attempt to completely abuse the purpose of the ACE question page, it was meant for someone else. I'll remove it of course. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:05, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

  • @Kudpung:, I asked for an apology of equal prominence. That means apologizing on that page. Please remember, it is not "your" page and amendments to it should follow appropriate guidelines. Thanks. You inference above that I am involved in lies and disparaging comments being made about you in an attempt to completely abuse the purpose of the ACE question page is another work of fiction, otherwise why mention it here in reference to my simple request for you to correct your error? Please do not conflate the pressure you are feeling with your gratuitous lack of research. Leaky Caldron 08:13, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
    • As far as I am concerned this section can now be hatted. Leaky Caldron 08:16, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
For some reason when I scroll past the thread above, I keep reading it as "Adm. [i.e. Admiral] Kudpung". BMK (talk) 08:36, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Not canvassing per the definition, but pretty darn close

(non-admin closure) No policy violation; not an issue for administrator attention. Psychonaut (talk) 14:44, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I wanted to bring this to the attention of the admins, [|note the message on the top of the page ]. It's not canvassing per the definition, but it's definetly not neutral and more than suggests how people should vote. I didn't touch it, and won't as I've gotten heat for it in the past, but just thought I'd bring it to the attention of the admins (especially since it concerns the arb elections! ). KoshVorlon 14:19, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

We have candidate guides which tell people how to vote. How is this any different? jps (talk) 14:23, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Almost every official ACE page links to a couple of dozen candidate guides that explicitly tell people how they should vote, person by person. Someone choosing to make their userpage in to a statement temporarily seems quite less like canvassing than the tons of guides that we explicitly allow and link from dozens and dozens of pages. Kevin Gorman (talk) 14:29, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Not even remotely close to canvassing, actually. I disagree with the sentiment - I think the community is getting the ArbCom it deserves - but TRPOD has the right to express his opinions. And what he has in the header of his talk page is no worse than what you have as the header of your user page. Also, I will notify TRPOD of this discussion, since you ignored the instructions to do so. Resolute 14:41, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

.... and I will remove that banner on the top of my page if any requests I do so. KoshVorlon 15:25, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

I won't ask you to do so, but perhaps you could research the difference between "effected" and "affected". Jonathunder (talk) 15:52, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Challenge closure on Climate change denial talk page

[Initially I placed this challenge on WP:ANI instead of WP:AN. User:Softlavender objected that was the wrong venue, so I let it expire on WP:ANI and I copied the thread's posts from the WP:ANI archive to here, as far as the post by Viriditas dated 10:03, 13 November 2015.] Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:23, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

I am following WP:CLOSECHALLENGE#Challenging_other_closures. I claim there is a problem with the close by User:Jess of the RFC on the Climate change denial talk page at Redirects to this page. My grounds are: Jess is "inextricably involved". Jess started the RFC here with non-neutral wording about redirecting to denial, and supported redirecting to denial here, and so it's no surprise that Jess closed with the comment "Consensus appears to support having these redirects point to climate change denial." I discussed this with Jess, see here, here, here, here. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 20:07, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

You are challenging a close of an RfC that had a ratio of two to one. What point would there be undoing the close and then having someone else reclose with the exact same result? I happen to be one of those editors who think "denier" is about as wrong as letting anti-abortion groups call their opponents "anti-life" but a clear consensus is a clear consensus whether or not you and I happen to disagree with it. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:22, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
And of course we're here... Earlier this year, climate change denial was expanded to cover "climate change skepticism" explicitly, and the relevant redirects were fixed. Reverts ensued, and discussion started at Talk:Climate change skeptic and a few other talk pages. Peter apparently wants the redirects pointed to an article which treats the topic more favorably (by not discussing it in detail), see edit summary. Peter refused to engage substantively in discussion (e.g.), but refused to let the redirects be changed ([95]). The dispute went to AE twice ([96], [97]), and there appeared to be some agreement that disruption was evident, but no action was taken. I started an RfC October 10th, advertised broadly ([98], [99], [100], [101]...), and adjusted the wording based on input ([102]). Pete objected to the RfC, claiming we should instead go back to the stalled discussion he had refused to answer questions in. When the RfC expired, and no new comments had been generated for days, consensus appeared to me to be exceptionally clear, so I implemented the changes and archived the RfC, noting that formal closure was likely not necessary ([103]). Peter then objected to my archiving the discussion, so I told him he could request formal closure if he felt it necessary ([104]). He didn't, and brought it here instead. I'm tired of this... I think enough editor time has been wasted on this nonsense.   — Jess· Δ 20:40, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Note, I will be away from a computer for an EMT exam for at least the next several hours.   — Jess· Δ 20:48, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Unfortunately, we do have somewhat of a problem, in that User:Peter Gulutzan seems determined to refuse accept the community consensus and continue to engage in WP:FORUMSHOPPING. After it was clear consensus was not behind Peter Gulutzan's position at the second CFD in a two days, he subsequently posted to WP:BLPN trying to circumvent the proper community process of category discussion. Now he has forum-shopped to here. AusLondonder (talk) 21:17, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
WP:BLP/N is a proper noticeboard for discussions concerning certain types of categorization of living persons. Collect (talk) 21:39, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
It is not the place to object of the existence of a category because you dispute the outcome of two CFD's. Thanks. AusLondonder (talk) 21:58, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

For the record, Peter received a routine CC DS last March.[105] It is unclear to me if he has breached the DS or not, but if he has, he should be blocked. He's been at this for three years now. Viriditas (talk) 23:50, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Update, based on Jess' comments up above, it looks like a block is needed per DS. Three years of disruption is long enough. Viriditas (talk) 23:53, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Gobsmacked While there's nothing wrong with an involved editor starting an RfC to resolve a difficult question, is it really acceptable for that editor to close the RfC with her preferred outcome? And then someone who thinks this isn't quite right is threatened with a block? When I went out for a couple hours, did I return to Bizarro-pedia?--S Philbrick(Talk) 02:50, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
  • I don't think you are a neutral admin on this issue, but you do appear to have been at it longer than Peter.[106] Viriditas (talk) 03:28, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm not following. Why the snide comments? What do they have to do with anything? Have I called you names?--S Philbrick(Talk) 03:38, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

There's a claim upthread that the support had a ratio of "two to one".

I count 20 editors with a bolded position. 12 expressed Support while 8 did not. That is not remotely a 2-1 margin. It means, if as few as two of those expressing support were changed to Oppose, we'd we talking 50-50. I don't know that any of those weighing in were on the fence, I am simply point out that it is closer that " two to one". I also suggested, that one editor who !voted with the simple explanation per WP:ASTONISH should be viewed as an oppose, because I think that point is better evidence for Oppose than for Support. I wouldn't literally do that if I were closing, as I know the editor, and I know their position, but if it were removed, becasue their explanation isn't consistent with their !vote, we'd be much closer to a push, which would mean you ought to have a responsible, experienced closer weighing the arguments.--S Philbrick(Talk) 03:39, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

So your suggestion is that we count all the editors who didn't !vote as opposing (even though they didn't), and then switch one of the supports to an oppose against that editor's wishes because in your opinion it fits better... and then assess consensus based on vote counting... and if we do all that, we end up with something that's not quite as skewed. If you really think an uninvolved editor would assess consensus that way, I guess you could have requested a formal closure. In reality, the support votes actually do outnumber the oppose votes by 2:1, and this proposal perfectly elucidates why the current climate of this topic area makes reasoned AGF discussion practically impossible.   — Jess· Δ 04:19, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
No, that wasn't my suggestion. Try rereading.--S Philbrick(Talk) 04:45, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
...current climate of this topic area makes reasoned AGF discussion practically impossible. On this point, we are in complete agreement.--S Philbrick(Talk) 04:47, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
I just rechecked my count. 12 support, 6 oppose. Does anyone other than Sphilbrick get a different count? --Guy Macon (talk) 04:22, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Folks who want to spread tales about me should start their own threads in more appropriate places. I'll only reply to statements that were made about the topic, a challenge of Jess's close. (A) Jess has said that the close was not "formal". I thought that "formal" meant going through the formalities with the templates for marking a closed discussion ("The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it" etc.). I'll leave it to an expert to decide whether Jess is right and whether it matters. (B) Jess has said that I should have asked for a close myself rather than challenging. That's impossible since Jess had aleady closed and refused to re-open by self-reverting, and in any case I am not the person who wanted a close, I was happy to let it peter out. (C) There has been no dispute that Jess is an involved editor, and no dispute that that's a criterion for a legitimate challenge according to WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. (D) Discussion of this matter had already taken place on Climate_change_skeptic#Centralized_discussion_plus_list_of_redirected_pages. There was no consensus. Jess decided that wasn't good enough so made this second discussion, "starting fresh". But it's possible a conscientious closer would have realized that it's the same topic and so must be taken into account, which would mean that the policy-related objections there would have been observed. By the way, by counting the editors there as well as the editors on Jess's thread, and counting editors who called for dismissal as well as editors who opposed, I get 14 versus 9 -- but admit that the strongest objector has been topic banned now. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 15:57, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, but you aren't allowed to fabricate pretend votes from another discussion and apply them to an RfC as if they were RfC !votes, any more than Sphilbrick gets to turn clearly labeled support !votes to oppose !votes because he doesn't agree with the rationale. The count is 12 support, 6 oppose. The consensus is support, by a 2:1 ratio, no more, no less. The close is valid, no matter who made the close, because anyone else would have made the exact same call. It is time to drop the WP:STICK. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:49, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
S Philbrick's counting method is more reasonable than Guy Macon's -- editors who said this RFC should be dismissed / is improper are against the RFC's motion, and anyway the exact formal word "opposed" was not one of the options (Jess changed the RFC's wording after those comments had been made). As for my method, I counted as not in favour of changing the redirect: Ssscienccce Markbassett Philbrick Morphh JaykeBird Gulutzan Capitalismojo Connolley Tillman (9), tell me which of these is supposedly fabricated and I will supply a diff. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 16:15, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
That's a nice fantasy world you created; it would be a shame if something might happen to it, such as reality intruding into it for just a bit. Let's see, Tillman was indefinitely banned from the CC topic in August, yet you feel his opinion from before that ban should apply to an RfC held in October. Are you feeling okay? You are way over the edge here. Viriditas (talk) 05:17, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Support climate change topic ban for Peter Gulutzan based on the above nonsense (whether rooted in incompetence or deliberate disruption) that is incompatible with editing Wikipedia. I would support it for Sphilbrick as well but since the community elected him as an admin, he's automatically immune and exempt from all policies that regular editors must follow. Some editors are more equal than others. Oink. Viriditas (talk) 10:03, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose Peter Gulutzan is right, if you start an RFC you should never be the one to close it, that's just common sense. KoshVorlon 15:28, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
    • KoshVorlon, you appear to lack common sense as you are spectacularly wrong in your assessment. As the thread above shows in clear language and with demonstrable diffs, Jess did not "close" the RFC as you claim. It was appropriately closed by Legobot.[107] It was then subsequently archived by Jess since discussion had concluded a week prior to the closing.[108]. Now, it's possible you aren't aware of Peter's continuing disruption in this topic area, but your comment here is not helpful. The problem here is unambiguously Peter, and I suggest you read closer in the future. Jess handled the RFC in the appropriate manner. Viriditas (talk) 20:23, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
      • Legobot's "close" was standard removal of expired RFC tags by a bot, so that's not closing it. But this edit is making a declaration on the result of the RFC by a person involved, which is still a problem. An uninvolved admin should have asked to review the expired RFC to make a decision what the result was before archiving and claiming the matter was put to rest. --MASEM (t) 20:37, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
        • There was a clear an unambiguous consensus and Peter was even given the opportunity to request a formal close which he refused to do. This has been going on for years. For you and others to continue to allow editors like Peter to disrupt the topic area is exactly the kind of problem we have to deal with across the board. Admins need to put a stop to this disruption when it occurs, not allow it to fester for years. Peter was given every opportunity to participate in the process and consensus was against him. Jess' so-called "involvement" here is not the problem. Viriditas (talk) 20:54, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose Per Kosh: Even a 12-6 s/o !vote count, that's nowhere near SNOW territory to enable the starting RFC petitioner to make the decision on its closure (outside of withdrawing it). This is not a judgement of whether it is the correct read, and given a similar issue that has recently been discussed around the category of "climate change deniers"/"climate change skeptics" where there was a significant swing of opinion when outside voices of those involved in climate change articles got involved, there might be need to re-evalute the RFC in that light, which does require an uninvolved admin regardless. Peter seems in the right to bring the issue up. --MASEM (t) 15:48, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Viriditas Actually, Jess | did close the rfc. Please don't comment on the contributors. KoshVorlon 21:25, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
The RFC closed automatically when Legobot delisted it. Jess archived it soon after since discussion had died down almost a week before the RFC shutdown. As for summarizing consensus, Jess already addressed this on November 10 (and the diff is located at the beginning of this discussion):

See WP:RfC. To quote: "If...consensus is obvious to the participants, then formal closure is neither necessary nor advisable...Editors are expected to be able to evaluate and agree upon the results of most RfCs without outside assistance." It is urged not to formally close in most circumstances, and consensus appears to be clear to everyone involved. Do you honestly believe the discussion would have been closed differently by another editor? You can request formal closure if you do, but it would be contrary to our guidelines and a waste of time for everyone involved.

Peter will not accept this close because he is engaging in POV pushing and is attempting to disrupt the climate change topic area. That's why I recommend enforcing DS and removing Peter from this area just like his friend Tillman was removed earlier this year. Viriditas (talk) 00:39, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
  • There are no formal policies or guidelines for closing discussions. Contrary to Masem's comment above, closures do not require an uninvolved admin. If that were the case, I'd be happy to overturn and re-close, but that just seems silly if the reading of the obvious consensus is going to be exactly the same. The relevant information pages that describe the communal consensus tell us that contentious discussions may be closed by any uninvolved editor and should not be closed by someone who is involved. However, they also tell us that formal closures are usually not necessary at all, particularly when the consensus is obvious. The overarching principle of WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY is always in play as well. It may be procedurally improper to perform an involved closure, but if a consensus is obvious, it should not generate drama or controversy on procedural grounds alone and closes should be challenged when the interpretation of consensus is in dispute, not for mere procedural concerns that do not affect what the community's consensus actually is. Some of the above comments are astonishing to me. The most an involved closure of a stale RfC with an obvious consensus should warrant is a minor trout. This close challenge is frivolous and a waste of time, begging for a boomerang. Swarm 05:18, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
I do not believe that Masem said that in general closures require an uninvolved admin, merely that this one should. I believe the matter is contentious and I do not believe the consensus is obvious to all participants and I believe Jess closed formally or equivalent, as I said in (A) (B) (C) (D) above. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 16:04, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
Though not actually required , it is in my personal opinion much better practice for contentious afcs, especially in areas as contentious as this, be closed by an uninvolved admin. A sufficiently practical reason is that they are much less likely to be challenged. When a non-admin does it, it opens up another usually unjustified area to continue the dispute. DGG ( talk ) 09:03, 27 November 2015 (UTC)


  • Using the archive templates with a summary on RFC's is what is generally considered formal closure; legobot removing the RFC notice is not a closure because it's just an automated thing that happens after 30 days (the RFC isn't necessarily closed, discussion can and often does continue! It's just 30 days is usually a good number).
  • Most RFC's don't need a formal close, this one is in a grey area because of the contentiousness of it. Editors involved in the discussion should be able to agree what the consensus is (after all, that's the point).
  • In this case consensus was fairly clear, so the close per-se was not a problem IMO. In this topic area it's definitely worth closing things off with a summary to be on the safe side.
  • Similarly disputing the close (by bringing it here) was fine per policy, and it is fine for RFC decisions to be reviewed under the formal process if editors think it needs to be
  • In this case; Jess' close is accurate and reflects consensus (although: both sides should consider using sources and policy to back up arguments better in future). I have added an endorsement on the page. Although I recommend to Jess that in future she considers getting an uninvolved close to ensure that there is no dispute.
  • There has been a lot of sniping in this thread, especially from Viriditas and S Philbrick. I'm aware that this is a deeply contentious area, and I am not fully aware of your history in the topic sector or together, but it's not been helpful.

Cheers. --Errant (chat!) 09:36, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

We're still at this? Thanks, ErrantX for posting to the article talk page, because it allowed me to work out this conversation was even taking place. Peter didn't notify me he'd copied my posts here, even after he continued discussing me. A couple things: as other editors seem to have worked out, my intention was to archive a stale discussion, not "close" it; half the comment I left explains that. I chose to leave a comment to wrap things up and explain what I was doing, and when Peter objected, I told him I wouldn't stop him from requesting formal closure. Of course, Peter doesn't want anyone else to close it either, because he knows consensus opposes him. He just wants to forum shop until he finds some procedural issue that will give him another chance to kill the redirects, and hide an article he doesn't like. We have wasted SO much time on this, it's mind-boggling. Comments at ANI were clear, but as soon as someone gave Peter the the idea to post about this again somewhere else, now we're all talking about it again. Terrific.   — Jess· Δ 16:05, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
In the future, follow Errant X suggestion, just undo your involved 'close' (it looks like a close and there is no doubt you are involved) and you request an uninvolved close - that would have put this all behind you - done and done. Thanks to Errant X for doing the work - there is little to be gained by arguing about whether an uninvolved close would be different, just get it done in accord with best practice. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:08, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Minor vandalism on webisode episode listings

We seem to have a problem with very minor vandalism. Over the last few years, I seem to be in a constant struggle with someone with a changing IP address. This person seems to have a particular pleasure in changing the release date for the episodes of webseries a few days different here and there. The vandalism is small enough some of these changes have taken years, if ever to fix all of the damage. Yes, as seen in my recent edits of List of The Guild episodes and List of Mortal Kombat: Legacy episodes, the vandal didn't even take the time to change the List of seasons section dates. Here are a few of the IP addresses that have made these changes.

  • 2602:306:CD51:9170:8419:466:565C:544C
  • 2602:306:CD8F:9060:54B3:E942:F8E6:9AF0
  • 2602:306:cd51:ab70:e944:9afb:5cb9:4142
  • 2602:306:CD8F:8C70:14BE:366D:EA26:EA36
  • 2602:306:cd51:8c10:3581:95e1:da38:5b65
  • 2602:306:cdc2:3930:51c4:5933:e564:919a

Most of the edits seem to be coming from Raleigh, North Carolina. I don't know if we can shut this person down. This person seems patient enough to wait editors out on these backwater pages. In the end, I know there used to be some sort of verify edit type of system that used to be on wikipedia. Maybe pages like these need to be under that banner. I am not as active as I used to be. It is just sad to see factual errors on wikipedia that aren't fixed for several years. Oldag07 (talk) 06:25, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Based on the addresses you've provided above the CIDR range seems to be 2602:0306:CD00/40. We could consider blocking this range if it is a big problem. Have you any examples of recent vandalism from these addresses? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:36, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
I don't think so. Here are a few more.
  • 2602:306:c59c:5f80:ecad:897b:5c44:b306
  • 2602:306:CD8F:BDF0:E436:3CD0:6759:2A34
  • 2602:306:CD8F:BDF0:FC78:2634:D91C:D34F
  • 2602:306:CD51:BDA0:75C2:A162:1855:123D
  • 2602:306:c59c:5080:f1df:cb9b:c34a:470f
  • 2602:306:CD51:A100:614D:A52:CF31:B105
  • 2602:306:35FB:2EC0:584A:8ECE:39AF:E2FC - seems to be non vandalism address
Maybe the right answer is to just ignore it. There has just got to be a better way to catch vandalism like that. Oldag07 (talk) 00:02, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Added bullet points for ease of readingOldag07 (talk) 00:02, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
I can't block such a large range unless there is significant ongoing vandalism from these addresses. If it is specific articles that are targeted then we could look at semi-protection or pending changes. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:06, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Meta Spam

THIS. No doubt I have been missing much by not following dramaz boards the last few day - but I think this is something that en-wp editors should be aware of. If it doesn't belong here? - delete. If it should be at a VP page - cross-post. Whatever - I don't care. Just letting folks know. — Ched :  ?  03:13, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

@Ched:The page you linked to isn't on Wikipedia - it's on meta; to have it deleted, please read meta's deletion policy and act accordingly. There is nothing here that Wikipedia admins can deal with. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 04:36, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Oh ... no, I'm sorry User:Od Mishehu. I didn't mean delete the page on meta - but rather delete my post here on AN. My post here was meant as an FYI - and if it was not appropriate, then delete it (my post) from the WP:AN page. — Ched :  ?  04:42, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps it would be better posted at WP:CENT? — Ched :  ?  04:49, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Do a range block

I pissed off A Pizzon Lamb and the IPs they have been using at Peter Foster by reverting their edits and putting page protection on the article. They went wild on the talk page until it was protected. They've had fun at my talk page, Kelapstick's and Afterwriting's. To make matters worse, they've been reverting edits I've made on other articles, such as Sarah Broadhead. Irony... one of the two links they wanted to add to the Foster article was Anti-social behaviour.

It's entering into the third day and this is getting old. As I'm "slightly" involved, could somebody block Pizzon Lamb and put a range block on? Bgwhite (talk) 08:44, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

The user first socked on their main IP, which is owned by Zero2Infinity, 4100 Smith School Rd, Austin TX 78744. I've left that for the minute as I don't know what collateral is on it. After one block on the ISP, they found some webhosts which I've rangeblocked for six months apiece. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:04, 27 November 2015 (UTC)