Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard

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Welcome to the administrators' noticeboard
This page is for posting information and issues that affect administrators.

Sections older than 48 hours
are archived by ClueBot III.

  • Issues appropriate for this page could include: General announcements, discussion of administration methods, ban proposals, block reviews, and backlog notices.
  • If you are seeking administrator intervention for a specific issue or dispute, you should post it at the Administrators' noticeboard for incidents (ANI) instead.
  • Do not report issues requiring oversight to this page – email directly with your concern.

When you start a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on the editor's talk page.

You may use {{subst:AN-notice}}~~~~ to do so.

Centralized discussion


Requests for closure[edit]

These requests for closure are transcluded from Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure.

Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2015 August 28#Category:Knights of the Order of the Netherlands Lion‎[edit]

Could somebody drop by Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2015 August 28 and close the Category:Knights of the Order of the Netherlands Lion discussion. It's been open for 2 weeks. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:06, 11 September 2015 (UTC) (Initiated 46 days ago on 28 August 2015)

Ping? This is 30 days old now. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:05, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Need closure on this DRV which was listed a month ago; most DRVs last a week. Stifle (talk) 08:17, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2015 August[edit]

The above two move reviews are long over their listing period and are stale, therefore they need to be closed. Armbrust The Homunculus 21:55, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

4 CFDs[edit]

The above four CFDs are the last remaining from this summer. Could somebody close them? Armbrust The Homunculus 21:55, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Talk:United States presidential election, 2016/Remodeling of major party candidate areas[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:United States presidential election, 2016/Remodeling of major party candidate areas (Initiated 60 days ago on 14 August 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:04, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2015 August 31#Template:Doctor Who episode list[edit]

TfD has a major backlog and this one has been open for almost two months. I'm pretty much the only admin frequently closing TfDs these days and I was involved in the background to this one, so an outsider is needed. Opabinia regalis (talk) 04:20, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

(Initiated 79 days ago on 26 July 2015) AlbinoFerret 00:51, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Multiple TfDs related to WikiBreak templates[edit]

All of the following TfDs need closure and were opened on the same date.

(Initiated 65 days ago on 9 August 2015) ~ RobTalk 23:15, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 September 18#Wakopedia[edit]

(Initiated 53 days ago on 21 August 2015). -- Tavix (talk) 16:31, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Non-free content review[edit]

This discussion forum has an extensive backlog where the oldest active entry was started on 10 June 2015 ((Initiated 125 days ago on 10 June 2015)), and at the time if me posting this request, the page has 163 discussions that have yet to be closed, several started over a month ago. Steel1943 (talk) 19:10, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 September 17#Katrina Richardson[edit]

(Initiated 41 days ago on 2 September 2015). -- Tavix (talk) 16:49, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 September 30#To anarchize[edit]

(Initiated 45 days ago on 29 August 2015). -- Tavix (talk) 02:26, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2015 August 24#Archive navigation templates[edit]

(Initiated 50 days ago on 24 August 2015) A NAC was recently vacated at DRV and a re-close by an uninvolved admin is needed. Thanks. Opabinia regalis (talk) 17:20, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2015 September#Football at the 1956 Summer Olympics[edit]

  • (Initiated 16 days ago on 27 September 2015) This move review is well over the listing period, and these have a tendency to linger in the backlog.--Cúchullain t/c 15:12, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject World's Oldest People#RFC: Should the world's oldest living people tables identify that their claim has been validated?[edit]

(Initiated 47 days ago on 27 August 2015) Could an uninvolved, experienced editor please assess consensus for each of the proposals at this RfC and close the discussion? Thank you. Ca2james (talk) 06:37, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Carly Fiorina#RfC: Should the lede say that Fiorina cut 30,000 jobs without mentioning that she also created tens of thousands of jobs?[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Carly Fiorina#RfC: Should the lede say that Fiorina cut 30,000 jobs without mentioning that she also created tens of thousands of jobs? (Initiated 25 days ago on 18 September 2015)? There has been no discussion since 3 October 2015. Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Jadwiga of Poland#RfC: was she Queen of Poland, "King" of Poland or King of Poland?[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Jadwiga of Poland#RfC: was she Queen of Poland, "King" of Poland or King of Poland? (Initiated 48 days ago on 26 August 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Joan Crawford#brothers age[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at the RfC at Talk:Joan Crawford#brothers age (Initiated 48 days ago on 26 August 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

  • X mark.svg Not done Consensus was clear to the proposer at the end of the RFC, boxed it up to archive it. AlbinoFerret 20:47, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Ali Khamenei#Non-RS Sources for Views[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at the RfC at Talk:Ali Khamenei#Non-RS Sources for Views (Initiated 45 days ago on 29 August 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

  • X mark.svg Not done SNOW RFC with no opposition, boxed it to archive it. AlbinoFerret 20:52, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Paul Singer (businessman)#RfC: Should use of the term "vulture" be added to a BLP?[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Paul Singer (businessman)#RfC: Should use of the term "vulture" be added to a BLP? (Initiated 44 days ago on 30 August 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Would an experienced editor close this discussion? It's been over 30 days and discussion has now ground to a halt (not to mention the previous discussion slowed by this RfC). Thank you. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 01:20, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Jeremy Corbyn/Archive 3#Portrait photo problems, again[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Jeremy Corbyn/Archive 3#Portrait photo problems, again (Initiated 26 days ago on 17 September 2015)? See the RfC subsections Talk:Jeremy Corbyn/Archive 3#RfC on stopgap photo and Talk:Jeremy Corbyn/Archive 3#RfC2 on stopgap photo. Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Categorization of people#RfC: BC births and deaths categorization scheme[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Wikipedia talk:Categorization of people#RfC: BC births and deaths categorization scheme (Initiated 30 days ago on 13 September 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:European colonization of the Americas#RfC: Should the word "seize" or "acquire" be used to describe the process through which colonists came to control the Americas?[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:European colonization of the Americas#RfC: Should the word "seize" or "acquire" be used to describe the process through which colonists came to control the Americas? (Initiated 48 days ago on 26 August 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Murder of Anni Dewani#RFC: Lede Section: Should Murder for Hire be excluded as discredited?[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Murder of Anni Dewani#RFC: Lede Section: Should Murder for Hire be excluded as discredited? (Initiated 47 days ago on 27 August 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Anglo-Saxons#RfC: Should we merge this article with Anglo-Saxon England?[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Anglo-Saxons#RfC: Should we merge this article with Anglo-Saxon England? (Initiated 47 days ago on 27 August 2015)? Please consider the April 2014 discussion Talk:Anglo-Saxons#Proposed merger with Anglo-Saxon England in your close. Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Scanian dialect#RfC: Question of inclusion of Scanian population figures from Ethnologue[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Scanian dialect#RfC: Question of inclusion of Scanian population figures from Ethnologue (Initiated 41 days ago on 2 September 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:College of Technology, Pantnagar#RfC: Is the page neutral and provides real information?[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:College of Technology, Pantnagar#RfC: Is the page neutral and provides real information? (Initiated 51 days ago on 23 August 2015)? A participant noted: "The RfC author appears to be requesting permission to remove the Peackock and COI warning templates on the article?" Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Trypophobia#RfC Should we include this image?[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Trypophobia#RfC Should we include this image? (Initiated 50 days ago on 24 August 2015)? Please consider the closed RfC Talk:Trypophobia/Archive 1#Removed Image. in your close. Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Genetically modified food#RFC regarding WHO study[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Genetically modified food#RFC regarding WHO study (Initiated 47 days ago on 27 August 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Template talk:Cite doi#RfC: Should cite doi template be deprecated?[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Template talk:Cite doi#RfC: Should cite doi template be deprecated? (Initiated 36 days ago on 7 September 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:IQ and Global Inequality#RFC: Should the article summarize the book's argument?[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:IQ and Global Inequality#RFC: Should the article summarize the book's argument? (Initiated 35 days ago on 8 September 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Faith healing#RfC: Is faith healing a form of pseudoscience and should it be labeled as such either in the article or by assignment of category pseudoscience?[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Faith healing#RfC: Is faith healing a form of pseudoscience and should it be labeled as such either in the article or by assignment of category pseudoscience? (Initiated 35 days ago on 8 September 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:List of best-selling girl groups#RfC[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:List of best-selling girl groups#RfC (Initiated 52 days ago on 22 August 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Mattress Performance (Carry That Weight)#RfC: How should Camille Paglia be described/identified in the article?[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Mattress Performance (Carry That Weight)#RfC: How should Camille Paglia be described/identified in the article? (Initiated 52 days ago on 22 August 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Mariah Carey (album)#Cassette cover art[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at the RfC at Talk:Mariah Carey (album)#Cassette cover art (Initiated 51 days ago on 23 August 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Jones & Jury (TV series)#RfC: Concerning the lead[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Jones & Jury (TV series)#RfC: Concerning the lead (Initiated 41 days ago on 2 September 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musicians/Categorization#Songs by artist: genre categories that are mostly right but wrong for certain songs[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at the RfC at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musicians/Categorization#Songs by artist: genre categories that are mostly right but wrong for certain songs (Initiated 35 days ago on 8 September 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Nuclear weapon#RfC: Section about Ali Khamenei's views[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Nuclear weapon#RfC: Section about Ali Khamenei's views (Initiated 42 days ago on 1 September 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

  • Please note that the RFC is opened in a misleading manner, i.e. there was no intention to have a section devoted to an individual's view, rather an "Islamic view" containing the views of different Islamic clerics was aimed. Mhhossein (talk) 02:49, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Palestine#RfC on splitting article into Palestine and Palestine (disambiguation)[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Palestine#RfC on splitting article into Palestine and Palestine (disambiguation) (Initiated 35 days ago on 8 September 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Ganesh Chaturthi#Undiscussed Name change[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at the RfC at Talk:Ganesh Chaturthi#Undiscussed Name change (Initiated 18 days ago on 25 September 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Jesus#RfC: Should this info be included for NPOV?[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Jesus#RfC: Should this info be included for NPOV? (Initiated 34 days ago on 9 September 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Template talk:Navbox#RfC: Should the default colors for this template be changed to satisfy AAA level accessibility color contrasts WP:COLOR? If so, to which colors?[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Template talk:Navbox#RfC: Should the default colors for this template be changed to satisfy AAA level accessibility color contrasts WP:COLOR? If so, to which colors? (Initiated 44 days ago on 30 August 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Username policy#RfC - should we allow company account names with verification[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Wikipedia talk:Username policy#RfC - should we allow company account names with verification (Initiated 42 days ago on 1 September 2015)? The discussion is listed at Template:Centralized discussion. Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#Remove the résumé exclusion from U5[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#Remove the résumé exclusion from U5 (Initiated 35 days ago on 8 September 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Administrators#Proposed change - 'No paid editing" for admins[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at the RfC at Wikipedia talk:Administrators#Proposed change - 'No paid editing" for admins (Initiated 39 days ago on 4 September 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)#Request for Comment: Country of Origin[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)#Request for Comment: Country of Origin (Initiated 38 days ago on 5 September 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Help talk:Citation Style 1#Request for Comments: Italics or Non-Italics in "website" field[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Help talk:Citation Style 1#Request for Comments: Italics or Non-Italics in "website" field (Initiated 34 days ago on 9 September 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Removing Persondata[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Removing Persondata (Initiated 35 days ago on 8 September 2015)? Please consider the closed RfCs Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 122#RfC: Should Persondata template be deprecated and methodically removed from articles? and Wikipedia:Bot requests/Archive 64#Remove persondata in your close. Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Bombay Riots#RfC: -Add series "Violence against Hindus" or Remove series "Violence against Muslims in India"?[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Bombay Riots#RfC: -Add series "Violence against Hindus" or Remove series "Violence against Muslims in India"? (Initiated 50 days ago on 24 August 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Waldorf education#Request for comments: allegations of promotional tone[edit]

Would an experienced editor assess the consensus at Talk:Waldorf education#Request for comments: allegations of promotional tone (Initiated 40 days ago on 3 September 2015)? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive274#Request to lift temporary topic-ban[edit]

Would an admin assess the consensus at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive274#Request to lift temporary topic-ban (Initiated 6 days ago on 7 October 2015)? The discussion has been open for four days. Thanks, Cunard (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 October 7#Other Government Agency[edit]

(Initiated 45 days ago on 29 August 2015). -- Tavix (talk) 17:59, 12 October 2015 (UTC)


(Initiated 43 days ago on 31 August 2015). -- Tavix (talk) 18:01, 12 October 2015 (UTC)


(Initiated 39 days ago on 4 September 2015) -- Tavix (talk) 18:04, 12 October 2015 (UTC)


(Initiated 34 days ago on 9 September 2015) -- Tavix (talk) 18:05, 12 October 2015 (UTC)


Could an experienced editor please close this RFC? It was opened July 29, and the RFC template was automatically removed August 28, but it never was formally closed. (talk) 23:36, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Procedural question - Can an identical edit be made to hundreds of articles with no discussion or consensus?[edit]

This discussion was started at WikiProject Politics, which stemmed from two threads at the Help Desk.[1][2] In short, an editor unilaterally made a contentious change to a date in hundreds of political articles without ever starting a discussion. So my question is very simple and is about the process, not the editor: Is someone allowed to make a contentious edit to a very large number of articles without getting consensus? If not, should the edtior be required to revert himself until the matter has been resolved? Czoal (talk) 22:48, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, editors should "be bold" if they think that something is going to be uncontroversial. If it does later turn out to be controversial, they should stop and garner consensus before continuing. Lankiveil (speak to me) 03:28, 4 October 2015 (UTC).
Concur with Lankiveil. If we all had to ask for "permission" first before doing something that someone somewhere might disagree with, WP would consist of a single blank page. BRD is an an essay describing an optional process that it self-describes as useful for some editors some of the time. It was pretty recently savaged in WP:VPPRO when someone proposed elevating it to guideline status, and it is frequently abused for patent WP:FILIBUSTERing. While most of us agree to use that methodology, when we think a revert has potentially rational reasons and a discussion could be warranted, it's not a policy violation to decline. As OlEnglish notes below, unless the attempts at improvement were obviously actually controversial (and WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a real controversy), its better to initiate discussion than revert. BRD is basically a last resort. Assume on WP:AGF that changes are intended well and as an improvement. If we assumed that repetitive changes across multiple pages were a problem, categorically, WP:AWB would not exist. If someone is generally using AWB other other mass-edits to do something against a clearly established WP:Consensus that has not changed, or it doing it is clearly disruptive ways, lodge a complaint about it at WP:ANI, and expect drama. It is not WP:FAITACCOMPLI to use ABW to make a bunch of trivially complex changes that are just a trivial to undo to with an equal-but-opposite AWB run. Fait accompli involves shaping content to fit an editorial agenda with the intent or effect of pre-emptively short-circuiting consensus formation, in a way that is hard to back the encyclopedia out of.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  05:37, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
As per WP:BRD the matter should get resolved first, before making any other reverts. See also Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary#Avoiding or limiting your reverts -- œ 05:48, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

@Czoal: @Lankviel: @OlEnglish: My apologies for only spotting this thread now.

On the procedural issue, the "fait accompli principle" adopted in several ArbCom decisions reflects that "Editors who are collectively or individually making large numbers of similar edits, and are apprised that those edits are controversial or disputed, are expected to attempt to resolve the dispute through discussion. It is inappropriate to use repetition or volume in order to present opponents with a fait accompli or to exhaust their ability to contest the change. This applies to many editors making a few edits each, as well as a few editors making many edits." (See, for example, here.)

On the substantive issue, although this issue is a perennial challenge and I have largely given up fighting it, March 4 is unambiguously the correct answer. See the evidence I provided here in 2006. I will cross-post that link in the project-page thread. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:55, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

  • I haven't seen yet any of the "hundreds of articles", could you post a link to a few, USER:Czoal? Fact is that thousands of congress bios were originally imported by User:Polbot (a bot) from the Congressional Biographical Directory which states March 3 as the end of term until 1933. Anything that was changed later (while cleaning up) to march 4, was done without consensus, and contrary to the sources. There were some discussions started by editors who think that the term ended March 4, none of which were formally closed, and all of which ended inconclusive. The present discussion, linked by the OP will have the same fate. The reason is simple: the issue had become controversial in real life (to clarify the point, the XX amendment was enacted) and debaters always mix up "term" and "session" and mix up events of 1791 with events of 1917 and then start generalizing. Obviously one can't do that, WP:OR is forbidden under WikiPolicy. I suggest some other sort of dispute resolution, since the RfC model has failed, so far, in this case. Kraxler (talk) 15:52, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Review of Reguyla (Kumioko) reblock[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Earlier today Kumioko was unblocked by Worm That Turned. This was done without consulting the blocking admin, Floquenbeam, or the community. These restrictions were placed upon him, one of which reads: "You may not comment on administrators as a group, nor on any sysop or desysop procedures." Kumioko's response can be read here. My query to WTT on blocking and his response can be read here. Upon reading this comment, made less than an hour ago, I blocked for one month. I see no change in Kumioko's behavior. Posted here for review. --NeilN talk to me 20:01, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Noting that I agree with the 1 month reblock and have declined the unblock request on those grounds. That said, I'd appreciate comments on the unblock - and also remind people that my recall process are certainly open on this matter. WormTT(talk) 20:07, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
As I stated on your talk page, I wish this had been brought to a noticeboard before the unblock. Yes, lots of drama would have ensued but we were going to get that anyways. --NeilN talk to me 20:14, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, what Neil said. A bold unblock, but really I don't quite see why this wasn't swung by the community first. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:22, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • It's a step in the right direction, but I'm stupefied as to why he was not indeffed. The thought of losing a wise and productive admin because of this makes me sick.- MrX 20:10, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Literally their first edit was a violation of the terms. Last time the community discussed this the standard was 6 months without being disruptive, an standard also not met. I think the block should be indefinite until the community agrees to their return, it was after all the community that banned this user and reviewed the ban in February giving clear terms. It is not for any one person to redefine terms set by the community, I think before this user is unblocked there needs to be a consensus to do so. HighInBC 20:11, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) A month seems a bit long, given it is a very new and short leash, so obviously I would oppose extending it. A week would make more sense, but I would rather have seen discussion with him before a block. Normally, comments like his wouldn't even get a second glance, and it is only due to the restrictions in place, which of course are there to prevent. Worm unblocked him originally, I endorsed that, and I think some venting will take place but we have to give someone the chance to get back into participating. More than a day, anyway. But yes, I think a block was at least one option in this circumstance. Dennis Brown - 20:12, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
As I said the above, he seems to be going off the deep end, so I guess this experiment in recovering banned editors is doomed. Dennis Brown - 20:16, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
(multiple e-c's later, there were only two comments here when I started writing this) Knowing that other individuals have mentioned discussion at Meta which I don't know about, and, on that basis, may have more information than I do, I am less than sure that I agree with the length of the block knowing what I do know, as I think some degree of venting might be understandable under these circumstances. So I might myself have chosen a shorter time, but, again, acknowledge that there are discussions elsewhere which might be directly relevant in this matter. And there is no way in hell I would support any discussion of recall of Worm regarding this matter. John Carter (talk) 20:14, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Comments Unblocking admin should have known better that any return of this user should have gained an explicit approval from the community for all the disruption that Reguyla (and their previous incarnations) caused. To unblock on their own initiative, without consulting the blocking admin, and by devising their own exotic restrictions is well outside the admin discretion levels. If the unblocking admin does not realize their faults (including causing the blocking admin to resign their bits and depart the field of engagement with hostility) then I question the level of trust that the community holds them and their actions in. Second, the blocked user in question has in the past resorted to many actions that individually would have caused a lesser editor to have been blocked indefinitely (including "Fait Acomplis" changes, Personal Attacks, Disruptive Editing, and Sockpuppetry). I question at this time (in light of the short timeframe between being unblocked and the first violation of the unblock conditions) if we should go ahead and deliberate a Community Ban on this user. As I have personal issues in the past with this user, I do not feel it is appropriate for me to propose the CBAN. Hasteur (talk) 20:15, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • WTF? Again? Do you people like being trolled or what? Smh.... Dave Dial (talk) 20:15, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • I support the block and would support increasing it to indef. The user immediately resumed the same toxic behaviour that got him banned. It was nauseating to read and it made me feel like quitting too, to be honest. To answer WormTT's question, I don't think the user should have been unblocked without consulting the community and the blocking admin (Floq.). -- Diannaa (talk) 20:27, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • ...You know, if WTT believed that the editor could contribute within the restrictions placed on their account, I have to trust that call. I would not have made it myself, but that's me. I am surprised that Kumioko is not indeffed, but that's also not my call. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 20:29, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
I have been trying not to be hard on Worm but I really do have to comment about the administrative policy. It says Administrators may disagree, but administrative actions should not be reversed without good cause, careful thought, and (if likely to be objected to), where the administrator is presently available, a brief discussion with the administrator whose action is challenged.
User:Worm That Turned I would like to know if you thought that this was unlikely to be objected too by Floq or if you have some other way of explaining how this action was in line it administrative policy. This comment[3] seems to indicate that you did not communicate about this because "he thought Reguyla's behaviour was a farce and straight indef". This seems to indicate that you knew it would be objected too.
I know this part of the admin policy is broken all of the time and is not held nearly as sacred as the rule against wheel warring, however I am sick of these cowboy unblocks. They always produce drama and I think we need to make it more clear that the administrative policy needs to be followed in this area. Frankly you offered something to Kumioko that you had no standing to fulfil and they are right to be annoyed at the outcome. HighInBC 20:33, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
I would argue that a lot of careful thought went into the unblock - apparently there were discussions with Kumioko off-wiki (!), and the restrictions were crafted with the editor's consent and input, ideally so that they'd be something that could be complied with. The fact that they then violated those restrictions is evidence of lots of bad faith on the part of Kumioko, certainly. But I trust that WTT was acting in good faith. Of course Floq should have been consulted, or at least notified as a courtesy - and the failure to do so is the likely reason that Floq retired today and resigned the tools. That's a concern as well. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 20:46, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
I have said it before and I will say it again: When the community fails to keep abusive people off-wiki good people will leave. Good people will be correct to leave. HighInBC 20:49, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Oh, you're absolutely not wrong. My name is in Kumioko's long and storied block history as well, and not on the unblock side. Does good faith on the unblocking admin's part mitigate a colossal fuckup like this? I dunno. I would expect this to go to arbcom, or at least to recall, before long. And then we lose two good admins over this... person. Distasteful. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 20:55, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
It would be my hope that this can be settled with some honest answers and be filed under the "lessons learned" category. I don't think we need to lose another admin and I hope Floq will return to the task. HighInBC 21:01, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
I agree on all points, and my name isn't in Kumioko's "long and storied block history," but disparagingly referred to on his current user talk page as well. John Carter (talk) 21:00, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • If he was unblocked with restrictions and then turned around and violated those restrictions immediately then he should be immediately reblocked for the same duration as the block that was lifted. Not for a lesser amount of time, the same amount of time. Not to mention that WTT's unblock essentially removed a good admin due to Floq's retirement in disgust. I will say that had I still had the tools, I would have communicated with Floq first (likely via email in the event that on-wiki conversation was problematic) and then made my decision based on that. I would NOT unblock a known banned user whose MO is screeching "admin abuse" left right and centre without that conversation. VERY bad unblock, and the original indef needs to be reinstated as it's clear Kumioko has zero intention of actually abiding the restrictions. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 20:36, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • There is no way that Kumioko should have been unblocked unilaterally. It is a slap in the face to every single person who has been at the receiving end of their vandalism, personal attacks and disruption. If an unblock had been brought before the community I don't believe that there is any way it would have passed. In a December 2014 email I sent to Arbcom wherein I noted that Reguyla stated they planned on simply creating a new account if their block wasn't lifted I ended the email with "I have no idea why he's been provided so much leeway on this project at the expense of long-term valuable contributors, nor where his disproportionate sense of entitlement comes from". I stand by those comments. Reguyla continually expounded the belief that they were completely invaluable to the project and the block was a horrible disservice. Years have passed and it's apparent that they still believe this fallacy to be true, a one month block won't change that. I would definitely support an indef block. --Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 20:44, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Under the circumstances, particularly considering Reguyla has had his access to his user talk page removed, I would myself oppose discussion of an indef at this time, preferring that at least it wait until the editor in question can respond. John Carter (talk) 20:49, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • The blatant and immediate violation of the conditions of his unblock means that the original indef block should be reinstated, not a month-long block. As noted above by Ponyo, a one-month block won't magically make him compliant. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 20:53, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • The indefinite block was placed by the community and then reviewed by the community. Given the lack of community consensus for anything else, why do you think it should be finite? HighInBC 20:51, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • He was already indefinitely blocked. --NeilN talk to me 20:53, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support re-indef: Yeah coming off an indef and immediately breaking the terms of their "probation" should result in a reestablishment of the original block. --Stabila711 (talk) 20:56, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose Indef - Here is the specific language of the unblock: "For the period of 1 year following the unblock [1] You may not comment on administrators as a group, nor on any sysop or desysop procedures. [2] You may not participate in any noticeboard listed in the general section of "Template:Noticeboard links" unless you are previously involved in or named as a party in a discussion that has been brought to the noticeboard. [3] Should you wish to take up an issue against any administrator, you must discuss the matter with Worm That Turned prior to doing so and get his agreement. [4] After the period of 1 year, these restrictions will expire. Should you break the restrictions, you will be blocked for a finite period of no less than 72 hours and no greater than 1 month. If the restrictions are breached 3 times, an indefinite block will be reinstated." Therefore, the one month block is appropriate, resumption of indef is not. If you have a problem with the unblock itself and want to eliminate two productive Administrators over this, you all know where ArbCom is. Your call, I don't care, and I seriously doubt that Dave and Dennis do either... They acted in good faith. Carrite (talk) 21:11, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • WP:Ignore all rules. Kumioko flagrantly disobeyed the unblock conditions immediately after being unblocked pursuant to the acceptance of those conditions. He should not be rewarded with a lesser block time for immediately violating them; if anything common sense dictates that the original indef block should be restored as he clearly has no intention of abiding by them. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 21:33, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • IAR says If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it. Please explain, in detail, exactly how giving Regula the sanction we promised that we would give him prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia. When an administrator gives a user a warning that contains the words "should you break the restrictions, you will be blocked for a finite period of no less than 72 hours and no greater than 1 month" it is fundamentally unfair to decide after the fact that the block should be greater than one month. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:37, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • But there was no "we". WTT had no authority or consensus to restrict what sanctions other admins or the community could take. --NeilN talk to me 17:46, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • I don't think anyone should lose their bit over this. An experiment was tried and it didn't go so well. However it should be engraved somewhere that unblocking a well-known socker with behavior issues without having a community discussion first will always end badly. --NeilN talk to me 21:20, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Don't want to comment but I suppose I should. This had nothing to do with the fact that it was somehow "my" block, nor that I'm cranky that WTT didn't talk to me first; come on, you really think I'm that precious? Hell, sometimes I like "cowboy unblocks". But they have to be smart. There has to be some modicum of thought and research and cluefulness put into them. They shouldn't be made when you know for a fact that 6-7 different admins strongly disagree with the unblock. I'm stunned WTT didn't see this reblock coming; Reguyla has literally spent the last 2 years demonstrating what would happen if he was unblocked. My other problem with this unblock is that it shows a profound lack of respect for the (I'm guessing, but this is in the right ballpark) 3-4 dozen people who tried to help him over the years and were slapped in the face for their trouble, or who were subjected to his drama, taunting, socking, nasty comments on WO, and vandalism. Who (regardless of what Reguyla said off-wiki to WTT) have not been apologized to. It is inconceivable that there are people who think the solution is.... to give him a 45th "final" chance. This is not the Island of Misfit Toys. We should not be in the business of trying over and over to bring back known troublemakers completely incapable of editing collaboratively with others... who are so out of control that they got banned from Wikipediocracy! It's just mind-boggling. The third problem I have with it is the horrible message it just sent to all of the other similar editors out there (won't name them, I'm sure each of you can think of at least 3), who now realize the solution to things not going your way is to cause MAXIMUM DISRUPTION for months on end.
Cowboy unblocks in moderation are invaluable, I'd hate to see all of them tarnished with the same brush. And I don't want WTT desysopped or recalled, but I would like to see him agree to never again unblock someone who is blocked indefinitely without running it by some other admin first, ONWIKI. I'd also like to know from WTT if it is true that other admins knew this unblock was coming before it happened, based on off-wiki communication - not their names, just whether they exist or not. If they do exist then I'd like them to be honorable enough to identify themselves instead of letting WTT take the hit.
And for God's sake, I'd like to see Reguyla officially-no-fucking-doubt-about-it-community-banned so we don't have to do all this again in a month. Yes, he will never leave, ban or not. No, that doesn't mean we have to cave into his every whim. There are more of us than there are of him. RBI.
Now, goodbye. This was not some "ultimatum" that it's either him or me ("Ultimatum" is your word, Dave; a tacky assumption). You should ban him because he does significant damage to the project. I'm gone either way, at least for a long while, no matter what. This place leaves a bad taste in my mouth right now. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:27, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Re-indef per Floq and Ponyo. He should not be rewarded with a reduced block for years of abuse. This was a seriously bad unblock by WTT. BethNaught (talk) 21:39, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Comments. I am sufficiently "involved" with this unhappy situation, historically (not recently), that I will not opine on the best outcome here, but I will provide some background. Reguyla/Kumioko has indisputably made voluminous and valuable contributions to mainspace, particularly in his area of specialist knowledge or interest, which is U.S. Medal of Honor winners. Those contributions have been quite valuable to the project and its readers.

Also indisputably, for some time Reguyla/Kumioko has been enormously disaffected with the governance of the project, including the ArbCom and the administrator corps. In too many instances, he has crossed the line from legitimate criticism (which is itself a positive contribution), to name-calling (which is not generally a positive contribution), and into out-and-out disruption. More than once he has said he was walking away from the project but then changed his mind. Some of his grievances have at least arguable merit and some of them don't, but in expressing all of them, a sense of proportion has consistently been lacking.

Ultimately Reguyla/Kumioko wound up as the subject of a community ban and was asked to leave us. Following the ban, his level of admitted, intentional disruption and trolling reached the point of consuming tens if not hundreds of hours of administrator time. The disruption was intentionally designed to prevent large numbers of other editors from editing (by triggering rangeblocks)—to the point that in this post, I concluded that it might become necessary for the Wikimedia Foundation to obtain a civil court order in order to deal with him, a suggestion I did not make lightly. Fortunately, that sort of disruption stopped a couple of months later and has not resumed to the best of my knowledge.

When I was an arbitrator, I was often typecast (sometimes accurately, sometimes simplistically) as the most lenient member of the Committee and the one most open to allowing second (or further) chances. From that vantage point, I completely understand what Worm That Turned was trying to achieve here: regaining the benefit of mainspace contributions from a knowledgeable editor, unburdened by the more ridiculous baggage that has accompanied his participation in recent years. But it is also understandable that some of the administrators who bore the brunt of dealing with the editor's worst misbehavior, both on and off wiki, would not want to see him welcomed back, or would have wanted to see a collaborative discussion of the pros and cons of having him back, before his return.... Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:42, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

It seems that by trying to cut the Gordian knot, I stabbed myself in the leg. I will answer any and all criticism in the morning. WormTT(talk) 22:07, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • As I said to WTT on his talk page, I suspect he has perhaps drunk a bit too much from the fountain of good faith in this case. I have no doubt that his actions were, indeed, in good faith, even if they were lacking in other ways. Perhaps for WTT the best way for the community to treat the situation is to bandage up his wounds and give him that patented "mother's look" while saying "this won't happen again, will it?"

    There has been mixed success when editors who have been badly behaved are permitted to return to the project; this shouldn't be a surprise, as there are often wounds on both sides that simply don't seem to heal. However, historically the returns that have been approved by the larger community seem to have a greater likelihood of success, while those solely by the Arbitration Committee without community discussion, or by individual administrators, seem much more prone to failure. While I can sympathize with the view that it is really difficult to get the community to agree to such returns, perhaps the lesson to take from that is that the returning user *needs* to work within the community, and by permitting the return, the community has a stake in trying to ensure that the returnee stays out of trouble. I won't be commenting below. Risker (talk) 02:08, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

  • I support the original unblock, and I applaud Worm and Dennis for trying to bring him back into the fold. I also support reblocking when he violated the terms of his return for the third time. Everyone seemed inclined to let him get away with that one initial blast, at admins in general and "trolls" who oppose his return, after which he said "That was limited to my initial reply. Now lets move on!" But it wasn't limited, and he didn't move on. The second violation was when he called John Carter's comments "utterly disingenuous trolling". The third violation was his characterization of everyone who didn't participate in his unblocking (and probably didn't know it was under discussion): "Everyone else wanted to act like children, stick their thumb in their mouth (or elsewhere), ignore emails, stomp their feet and give the silent treatment." By that time, Neil was absolutely right to block him; even Worm said he would have blocked him. Worm and Dennis went out on a limb to give him a chance; his response was in effect to kick them in the teeth; I don't see any reason to ever let him back. --MelanieN (talk) 01:43, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Endorse the reblock; very clear violation of the unblock conditions.--Ymblanter (talk) 02:22, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Endorse both WTT well-reasoned unblock, and the immediately reblock afterward, because the subject of these actions violated the terms of the unblock. Without prejudice to reinstatement after the reblock expires, and further without prejudice to an indef if the problem behavior just resumes.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  06:03, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Community ban for Reguyla/Kumioko[edit]

Since it's clear he has no desire to edit Wikipedia constructively, follow community norms, or abide by restrictions, I am hereby proposing a community ban for Reguyla/Kumioko. I would actually also go one step further here, if possible: This ban can only be contested by application to the Ban Appeals Subcommittee or Arbitration committee, and not more than once every twelve months. I'm not stupid enough to assume this will actually get rid of him - I note what Floq says above is generally true of most, if not all, banned editors - but it will prevent crap like this from happening in the future. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 21:40, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

  • Support as proposer. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 21:40, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Re-iterate support. With respect to WTT and Newyorkbrad, fiat justitia ruat caelum: Kumioko's actions have been intolerable. BethNaught (talk) 21:45, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - this user has committed every violation in the book and has been given many chances to reform already. There were numerous reincarnations of the user as well. Given that his recent actions and behavior have clearly outweighed any positive contributions he's made to the project, it's time for him to go. Enough is enough. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:50, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Re-iterate support from above. --Stabila711 (talk) 21:53, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support it clearly isn't worth expending additional effort to rehabilitate this editor per the above. Hut 8.5 21:56, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support Frog and scorpion. Only in death does duty end (talk) 22:02, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support for all of the glaringly obvious reasons. I would also like to see some centralized effort to prevent IP sock hopping, including aggressively blocking proxies, reporting abuse to the ISPs that he uses, and an option to escalate to WMF for further action as mentioned by NewYorkBrad.- MrX 22:06, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
    • Thanks for picking up on my post, but to the best of my knowledge nothing that has happened in recent months would warrant that escalation—the types of outrageous disruption that led to my earlier comment have, as I said above, stopped (although the threat to sneak in and make mainspace contributions continues, which is a different issue). Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:21, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - At the end of the day he won't ever learn or change and to be honest I think he's worn everyones patience out here, Personally I think he should just move on from this place, Nothing against WTT but unblocking him was IMHO a complete waste of time. –Davey2010Talk 22:14, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support This person has a history of bad faith, failure to follow promises, and downright abuse towards our editors. When we fail to keep people like this away from the project good people leave and they are right to leave. Of course it can later be overturned by the community, but not any individual please. HighInBC 22:45, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support as a potential solution to a definite problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JzG (talkcontribs) 22:54, 5 October 2015‎
  • Support The WP:WIKILAWYERING that led to previous name changes and unblocks has always wound up with the resumption of the behavior in which the community is treated like dirt. The extraordinary number of socks and personal attacks that occurred in the past should have been enough to keep from any admin from unblocking without consulting the community first. A WP:BAN will ensure that wont happen in the future. MarnetteD|Talk 23:01, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • oppose without prejudice. I trust the judgement of WTT and NYB, if they saw there was a glimmer of hope we should not extinguish it. the early violation was minor but very poor form. I'm willing to let the month tick out, then see if the pattern continues. the leash should be very short considering past history, and I do not begrudge those who think it is already too long Gaijin42 (talk) 23:06, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • I cannot speak for everyone but my opinion on this ban is not based on the reaction to recent unblock. It is based off a history of using sockpuppetry to intentionally get large ranges of IPs blocked so as to cause collateral damage as a form of extortion. It is based off of vicious personal attacks against numerous editors. It is based off their leaking of private information about admins and other respected users. This goes a lot deeper than the events of today. HighInBC 23:08, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I am aware of this history. I was personally implicated in one of his impersonation disruptions. My comment about WTT and NYB holding out a glimmer of hope was taking that into account. Gaijin42 (talk) 23:12, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Fair enough. HighInBC 23:15, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support The first edit after unblock was to refer to those who have previously experienced the Kumioko/Reguyla time-sink as "trolls", and to reiterate his rejection of the original ban, and to repeat the same tired nonsense about double standards and fairness. Being fair to a drama-magnet leads to more drama. A new ban is required to prevent future abuse of the community by misguided admin unblocks. Johnuniq (talk) 23:11, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support, but let's try to make our decision objectively, rather than as an emotional response in the heat of the moment. I'm not averse to an unblock one day, and Dave undoubtedly acted in what he felt was the best interest of the encyclopaedia by unblocking. The trouble is that Reguyla/Kumioko has caused a great deal of disruption and pain to this community. Part of the healing process is that the cause of the disruption and pain leaves the community for a while. Kumioko simply hasn't done that, and the damage he has done can't be repaired until he does. He has made useful edits and even insightful comments while socking, but these are vastly outweighed by the disruption he caused, and the deep personal resentment he has given many editors to feel through his conduct towards them and towards this community. That he would breach his unblocking conditions within hours of being unblocked, going back to attacking individuals and admins as a collective and all the other things that led to his ban, only confirms that it is too soon for him to come back (not, as I say, that he ever left in any meaningful sense)—too soon for him, and too soon for us. Kumioko needs to leave enwiki and its community alone for long enough for the wounds to heal. Then we can revisit allowing him back. @Reguyla: I strongly suggest you read this; and for what it's worth, I'm not one of those editors who feels personal resentment towards you, so if you have helpful suggestions or comments to make, you can email me or post on my Commons talk page. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:12, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
    That is why I suggested BASC/ArbCom as a requirement to lift the ban. Kumioko's future should not be left to a single admin (given that this blew up in the community's face) nor to the community writ large (who won't be forgetting this incident or the efforts to blackmail us into letting him back); I would rather someone who can fairly assess his behaviour and his words do so. That way he gets a (relatively) unbiased way to appeal and the rest of the community doesn't have an opportunity to dogpile on and torque him off even more. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 23:21, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
    Perhaps there is another way to prevent dogpileing? All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:55, 6 October 2015 (UTC).
    Nothing that immediately comes to my mind. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 19:10, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose more or less as per Gaijin42. Worm and Dennis indicated that they saw some reason to hope here, and not knowing what they saw, I am obligated to trust the judgment of some admins I trust. And, at the very least, I would like to be able to see Reguyla participate in such a discussion as this, which right now he can't do. John Carter (talk) 23:14, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This is too extreme. Everyking (talk) 23:19, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
    Not really.Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 23:24, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support As I see things, this latest incident is the culmination of a five year campaign of disruption, personal attacks, harassment and industrial scale sockpuppetry. Yes, this person is capable of writing Featured articles, but they are clearly unwilling or incapable of doing so without creating monumental disruption and grief for others to have to deal with, without remorse, and with every likelihood that the disruption will resume instantly if they are allowed to return. Their determination to combat their "enemies" ignores the fact that they are their own worst enemy. ~·Cullen328 Let's discuss it
  • Oppose quite obviously. We've worked with reintegrating previously banned editors before, it is always a bumpy road, but the fact is, the initial ban WAS too quick, and if we are going to call ourselves a community, if we have the gall to say we treat everyone equal, we need to be a little more patient. Keep in mind, this current block was a violation, but it was still a small thing. Of course that is going to get him into vent mode. My personal thought is that he has a lot to contribute and it is easier to manage if he is here legitimately. This is why I supported the initial unblock. To ban or indef block him now for a small comment would simply be proving him right, that this is a kangaroo court at AN where anyone can be permanently banned simply for being unpopular. Everyone needs to just calm down, have a tea, and ask if what he has done since being unblocked is really indef worthy. To me, obviously not. Dennis Brown - 23:39, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Dennis Brown Did you not think the unblock would be very controversial and if so, did you suggest bringing it to a noticeboard first? --NeilN talk to me 23:52, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Based on his reaction on his page, on this page, in email and everywhere else, I have to withdraw any support. Much about the initial block and ban two years ago was less than perfect, but it doesn't excuse his behavior once Worm was willing to give him a chance. I'm going back to my Wikibreak, which was interrupted by all this. I simply endorsed giving someone a second chance, for a variety of reasons. I didn't really sign on for all this drama. Dennis Brown - 22:06, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • It is a bit more complicated than I can explain in a paragraph, but I've been talking to Kumioko since he was first banned, including trying to convince him to not sock. Keep in mind, Worm did the unblock, not me, so it wasn't my decision to make in this case. I was aware of it and supported it beforehand. There already has been previous community discussions if you go and follow the history, which is too complicated to explain here, again. As far as I can tell, Worm had full authority to unblock him as the community had agreed to lift the ban after a period of time. And of course I knew it would be controversial, but I've never strayed from supporting an action I think is worth the risk, even if it is unpopular. Right now, many people don't have the full story and I don't expect they will bother to find it out. I have no control over that. Of course, Reguyla shot himself in the foot as well, but I don't think all this "pitchforks and torches" is a shining example of community participation. That I'm in the minority is irrelevant in this. Dennis Brown - 02:20, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Where is it written that we treat all users equally? I would say the we decidedly treat users who try to engage in extortion far from equal to an editor who does not. I normally have a lot of respect for your opinion but in this case I think your point is lacking. To suggest that we are banning him for a small comment seems to disregard the past behaviour of this user. The argument you have presented does not seem to address the issues at hand, we are not here asking for a ban because he mentioned admins when he was told not to mention admins. There is a very long history here and you know that. HighInBC 23:58, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • We already extracted our pint of blood for that. Unblocking was a way of starting over with restrictions. To drag behavior he has already "served time for" so quick after an unblock and a simple comment is saying that we will never forgive or forget. He clearly messed up as soon as he got back, but lets not fool ourselves, it doesn't seem that many were even willing to give it a chance. Dennis Brown - 02:20, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • DB, please post a diff of a single comment about a) R or b) the unblock before his trolls comment. NE Ent 02:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Sorry, but not going to play games Ent. Your arbitrary line in the sand is meaningless in a case that has spanned two years. Dennis Brown - 02:39, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • I don't consider engaging in sock puppetry and blaming everyone else for his ban "serving time". The unblock offered by the community was conditional and those conditions were not met. He was told 6 months without disruption and he could come back, he decided to use that time engaging in sock puppetry and personal attacks.
  • This user has not even gone half way to accept the generous offer by the community. There has been zero contrition from this user and I find it unrealistic to look at this situation and see user who has learned their lesson or in any way appeased the community for their abuse. The unblock was a lapse in judgement and it was a disservice to Reg. This is a mess Worm made and it is not something for the community to bear the brunt of. We should not have to endure yet another repetition of this user not doing what they agreed too because of a piss poor unblock.
  • It boggles my mind that the return of this user is even being considered while contributors like Betacommand are being blackballed from the community. My bright line in the sand is when a user gets really nasty and abusive, that is when I don't want them back. I find it insulting to anyone he abused that he was unblocked to begin with. It is damaging to the project to forgive and forget something that has every likelihood of happening again. HighInBC 05:06, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Just noting that I've tried in the past to work Betacommand in a similar manner - just before his community ban. I hope there is a way back for him too. WormTT(talk) 07:55, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • You made an accusation: "it doesn't seem that many were even willing to give it a chance." I'm asking to back it up with evidence. NE Ent 11:46, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - A major sockmaster gets unblocked, blows his unblock terms in the first edit, and winds up here. Enough is enough. Jusdafax 23:54, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support It's not that he is "unpopular", no doubt he has friends, but it's his disruptive behavior that brings him to a ban - that's what a ban is to judge and his conduct as a User has been terrible for an extended time, whether he is personally popular or not. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:05, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support: This editor has repeatedly expressed an adamant defiance to the consensus and the statutes of Wikipedia. Every post-block edit has been oppositional, with no indication of slowing down. DARTHBOTTO talkcont 00:10, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict)Support That in the space of a few hours we've lost one admin with diamond level bona fides, that we're about to admonish another admin who has been well respected, and that we have many editors that have held advanced permissions all concur that this user is a lost cause should be indicative that no edits by this user under any guise will be able to outweigh the drama/agony/disruption that they have caused. As I referenced in the Block review this user has gone for Fait Acomplis actions, personal attacks, sockpuppetry, and more. I would prefer a indefinite ban to be only appealed through Ban Appeals Subcommittee with a public comment period so the subcommittee can get the views of the community at large since the community at large has been the main target of this user's disruption. Hasteur (talk) 00:15, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support: Kumiko's very first edit after being unblocked is to violate the terms of the unblock in a particularly drama-mongering fashion? That's not the action of someone who intends to be a productive editor. --Carnildo (talk) 00:32, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose - A very productive editor whose feelings were hurt by repeated rejection in the RFA process and who lashed out. I don't find his "violation" all that shocking. Give him a chance, a path back. Carrite (talk) 00:42, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. No amount of constructive work will be able to counteract the massive disruption and thousands of hours lost by others because of this guy. He is an extremist who will never stop trying to blow up Wikipedia to remake it in his own image. Bar the door. Binksternet (talk) 00:57, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. They've had far too many "final chances" and have never shown any sign of getting the point. I'd even support an actual "infinite" ban with no appeals permitted; Kumioko seems to be an incorrigible sort who will never be a net positive to the project again. rdfox 76 (talk) 01:18, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • (ec) Support. This user has perhaps been give more "second chances" that any other editor in Wikipedia's history, and has failed to live up to them every time. Given this, a re-instatement of the community ban of a few years ago is more than justified. BMK (talk) 01:19, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • While I'm commenting, the Kumioko drama is so toxic that I don't believe any admin should be sanctioned in any way over it, regardless of my opinions about who did the right thing and who did not (which I have, but will hold onto). In any case, a community ban is needed to put any future action beyond the reach of a single admin, as an indef block would not. BMK (talk) 01:23, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • I am of the opinion that WTT acted in good faith, and sanctioning him for this short of a strong reprimand is excessive; my assumption is that WTT didn't do his research into the whole Kumioko situation. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 03:15, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • If in the future anyone ever brings up 'They are already indeffed, we dont need a ban discussion, no one will unblock him!' .... I am pointing them right here citing 'the Kumioko effect'. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:22, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Considering the amount of community effort Reguyla has consumed ban discussion, ban review resulting in ineffable, bizzare "blocked but not banned," ANI discussion about talk page nonsense and, in the brief time since his unblock:
  • Support site ban. NE Ent 01:41, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support site ban - As per BMK, this user may have been given more second chances than any other editor in history, and until now there have always been a few sympathetic editors who let them Wikilaywer their way out. Enough is enough. Formal community site ban, with restrictions on appeal. This has gone on too long. There have been too many second chances. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support site ban. The fact that Dennis has to use the words "trying to convince him not to sock" pretty much encapsulates the mindset of a terminally disruptive editor who thinks nothing of violating and flouting policy. WTT has a very kind heart and in my observation has kindly given people second chances due to this kind nature. However, in this case it's clear that the community wants the site ban re-instated. Softlavender (talk) 02:53, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support site ban. My goodness what a time-sink this editor has been, and for such a long time. With regard to recent events, it's hard to argue with that NE Ent lays out a couple of posts above. It frequently surprises me just how often Wikipedia tries to give "one more chance" to editors who make so little effort to understand how they come across to others. WTT, you are kind, and you did not mean it this way, but (and from what I can tell you are able to handle some direct feedback) this is quite disrespectful to fellow admins who have dealt with these problems, and to the community in general. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 03:14, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support site ban. It is clear that Kumioko cannot control himself. Obviously we're very different people but if I was in his shoes and got an unblock after all the disruption I've caused, I would shut up and edit productively for a couple weeks before testing the boundaries of my restrictions. The fact that he immediately went back to his old ways shows he hasn't changed enough or at all (as does his message below). As a rather unpleasant side-effect, based on his comments, I find my faith in Dennis Brown's judgement in these kinds of matters significantly reduced. Your fellow editors are not a kangaroo court and "you don't have the full story but it's too complicated to explain" is not helpful. --NeilN talk to me 03:26, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. Everyone seems to be familiar with the background of this drama except me, but the upside of being out of this particular loop is that I can look at this matter dispassionately. One thing I look for in gauging unblock requests is an awareness on the part of an editor that their previous behavior was inappropriate. They don't have to ask for forgiveness, they don't even have to be sorry, but they have to demonstrate that they are aware it was not okay, and I do not see that here. Gamaliel (talk) 04:14, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
    • We should not try to dictate people's opinions or extract confessions. We can "agree to disagree" and move on, as long as an editor is willing to refrain from behavior that the community has deemed troublesome. Everyking (talk) 07:49, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
      • I have no interest in extracting confessions or dictating their opinions. They can think what they did is perfectly fine, as long as they demonstrate they are aware that they did was unacceptable. This demands even less than your stated willingness to refrain, so it's hardly akin to extracting a confession. Gamaliel (talk) 14:12, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • The latest statement posted by GW shows exactly why this user should be blocked, as it basically boils down to "Floquenbeam is a quitter and I'm not" and "those who !votes support are just the same group who are out to get me". I have no idea who this person is so at least in my case this is factually inaccurate. I don't care if this user is contrite, but they don't seem to have the slightest understanding why other editors would object to socking or harassment, nor do they even seem to acknowledge that they did any of these things. As Jéské Couriano writes below, it's all "me me me". This is not the kind of editor who is capable of engaging in productive collaborative editing with others. Gamaliel (talk) 16:21, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. per Dennis Brown. Begoontalk 04:45, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment: Thoughts: I just re-read WP:STANDARDOFFER, and as far as I can tell none of the conditions seem to have been met, and none of the public procedures (e.g. "open[ing] a thread at an administrative noticeboard (WP:AN or WP:ANI)") seem to have been followed. I don't know if they needed to be met and followed; I can't tell whether the original indef was Floq's judgment call (in which case we simply have a case of the unblocker overturning another admin's action, albeit without discussion with that admin [Whether or not discussion was warranted, with Floq or the community, I don't know.]), or whether the original indef was a community consensus (in which case SO should have been followed to the letter). Softlavender (talk) 05:23, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose:Dennis summarises my thoughts well But Vehemently Oppose the BASC only return. Kumioko needs a community return option. WormTT(talk) 07:52, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
    I heavily doubt the community is going to forget the holding-anons-hostage-via-IP-hopping, the constant sockpuppetry and block evasion, the imprecations towards admins to the point of single-issue wonkery, the constant relitigation of past wrongs anywhere where he can speak, or the fact he immediately violated the terms of unblock that you offered him. I suggested BASC or ArbCom only because I strongly doubt that the community writ large would give him a fair shake, especially after the events that transpired yesterday. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 09:24, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support, I like to think I'm a patient type, but they barely lasted twelve hours this time. Either WTT has gotten trolled, or Reguyla is seriously incapable of working with others; and neither indicates that any positive contribution they might make will outweigh the disruption that they cause. Lankiveil (speak to me) 10:10, 6 October 2015 (UTC).
  • Sigh personally I have never had a problem with Kumioko and would not mind him editing here at all, however I am aware of the huge drain that the ongoing battlefield has been and folks that have been upset, so fully understand folks' exasperation too. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:56, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. Enough is enough is enough. Nsk92 (talk) 10:59, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - clearly here to be disruptive. GiantSnowman 11:23, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - As an observer of Kumioko/Reguyla's conduct since the big community ban review discussion a year and a bit ago, I can see no option here but indefinitely banning him. There is no point saying "come back in a month". Twice now over 12+ months the community has extended an olive branch after repeated assurances of regret and future good behaviour, both times things ended in tears. It's one thing to assume the best of people and that they can change - it's quite another to ignore repeated evidence to the contrary. The Land (talk) 11:43, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support Enough is enough is more than enough, after a nearly 4 year campaign of disruption, personal attacks, harassment, serial sockpuppetry, vandalism and extortion. For the record, I find the minimizing rhetoric used by both Worm That Turned and Dennis Brown to describe Kumioko/Reguyla's behaviour and their attempt to sanitize what he actually got up to be quite distasteful. Even more distasteful, is their description of the original ban discussion as a "kangaroo court" allegedly closed after "a couple of hours", when in fact it was closed after 48 hours and had quite a thoughtful participation of both admins and ordinary editors. Ditto Dennis Brown's clear implication that those supporting a ban now are simply a mob of "pitchforks and torches". Voceditenore (talk) 12:43, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Weak oppose. Based on behavior, past and present, I fully understand why this is being proposed. The original ban was imposed fully in accordance with policy with wide input from the community, and was not the result of "kangaroo court" proceedings. With that said, the disruption at this particular iteration was brief, and has already resulted in a fairly severe sanction of a one-month block without talkpage access. That should already send a clear signal that the community is serious about enforcing the restriction. The community's skepticism of letting Reguyla back in is fully justified, but I am uncomfortable with the unbanning process requiring acts of contrition, confession, apologies etc. The advantage of keeping the blocks finite is that upon expiry, the user is readmitted to the community without fuss and with more dignity. Any sockpuppetry during the next month should result in the ban being reinstated. Sjakkalle (Check!) 13:42, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support I didn't think he should have been unblocked to begin with considering the massive disruption he has caused. That being said, he was, but then he immediately violated the very very very light restrictions put upon him as part of the unblock. He needs to be shown the door with an indef ban at this point. It is ridiculous. -DJSasso (talk) 14:01, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. Their first comments immediately on being unblocked show that they are no closer to understanding why they have ended up in this position. Until they learn a minimum of self-control I see no hope for their successful return. SuperMarioMan ( talk ) 14:35, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose I know my opinion here is in the minority, but the restrictions and conditions WTT laid out all this user a fair second chance. I'm one to always AGF and see the good in people, and I'm also not fully aware of Kumioko's background, but I've only had positive interactions with him. I believe people are capable of change, be it takes 1 try, 2 tries, or 4 tries. Using myself as a model, I was an ecstatic, frustrating, stubborn as a mule user who took flak from a community to get to change. I got myself indefinitely blocked which required a BASC appeal, and look at me now. I almost passed an RfA, and narrowly missed by a hair. So again, people can change, and I'm glad the community gave me the chances to change. I think with these restrictions, this will allow Kumioko to redeem himself. And if he can't stay unblocked, and manages to get himself blocked 2 more times, it automatically becomes an indefinite that will likely have no chance of being lifted anytime soon.—cyberpowerChat:Online 15:44, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support per my comments above. This isn't a matter of a single editor causing limited disruption, it's an editor who made it their purpose to disrupt the entire project through a campaign of targetted harassment and (in Newyorkbrad's words) "his level of admitted, intentional disruption and trolling reached the point of consuming tens if not hundreds of hours of administrator time." This is an individual who continues to prove themselves incapable of the type of collaboration required to edit on this project. I don't see how anyone who knew that full extent of Kumioko's actions and the lengths they went to in order to maximize the disruption caused could oppose the ban.--Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 16:00, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. Kumioko has not been here for any reason other than to harass and abuse various editors for years. As stupid as the attempted unblock was, it did demonstrate - in a matter of hours - just how unsuited for participation in this project this editor is. Resolute 16:56, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose Wikipedians need to look forward and work collegialy, not shout "burn the witch" at every opportunity. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:32, 6 October 2015 (UTC).
  • Support WTT's decision to unblock, support 1-month reblock, strongly oppose indef. When an administrator gives a user a warning that contains the words "should you break the restrictions, you will be blocked for a finite period of no less than 72 hours and no greater than 1 month" it is fundamentally unfair to decide after the fact that the block should be greater than one month. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:57, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
    The fact that he turned right around after the unblock and violated the terms of it justifies it. If your first edit after being unblocked pursuant to certain conditions was to immediately violate said conditions, you should expect for the original block to be reinstated. The assumption of good faith is not a suicide pact. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 19:00, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
    Worm does not get to decide on maximum block lengths, it is beyond me why he tried. HighInBC 20:10, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
    You could say the same about any warning posted by any administrator. You may not agree with it, but setting the terms of the restriction was an administrator action, and unless you can persuade WTT to allow a longer block or show that somehow his setting restrictions as a condition for unblocking was against policy, changing the block to longer than one month would be a clear case of wheel warring. Let the block expire in a month. If there are no further violations by Reguyla, we are done. If there are, you can post to ANI and in all likelihood there will be a strong consensus for an indef block. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:49, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
    That is not how things work. Making up conditions for an unblock is not an admin act(unblocking is though) and no admin can put limits on how much a block can be made by another. Wheel warring happens when there is a back and forth, reversing another admins action is not automatically wheel warring. HighInBC 22:24, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose I read the discussion that occurred on his talk page and I came away with the view that if so many editors hadn't jumped into the discussion, he may have quietly reentered the community. He has been a productive editor in the past and I think it would be beneficial to the project to be a bit more tolerant and less rigid in enforcing policy. --I am One of Many (talk) 18:00, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Look, I was the one who blocked him in the first place back in 2012, and he's been banging his head into the wall and shouting "Hey look at me" ever since. But no, I can't community ban someone for what is essentially one comment. Now, if he's been socking during his block or his ban, then show me that and I'll support a ban. But this? It's pitchforks. He was told that he gets a month if he screws up, he screwed up, so give him his month. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 18:08, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • He self admits to socking a lot during his block/ban. That really has never been in question. -DJSasso (talk) 18:50, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, so true, and I see Doc's link below as well. Put me under Support then. Thanks. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 13:07, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support ban. Dennis asks above "if what he has done since being unblocked is really indef worthy". No, not in itself, but his whole conduct over the last few years is, and what he has done since being unblocked shows that, whatever he promised to WTT, Kumioko has not in fact changed his spots. This is the person who wrote: "I will be the most prolific vandal, troll and sockmaster in Wikipedia history." (posted on WO; quoted, with much else, here). That was not a momentary "vent" but a serious declaration of intent, which he pursued relentlessly, including deliberately damaging the encyclopedia; three months later he wrote: "Even today, I made about 200 contributions, mostly vandalism and fictitious page moves and most haven't been undone."[4].
Dennis says "We already extracted our pint of blood for that" but that does not mean we should forget it in assessing whether Kumioko is likely to be a net positive if allowed back, and how he is likely to behave the next time he does not get his way. If he is to be welcome here he has to put all that behind him. WTT hoped, against all the evidence, that he could; what he has done since unblock shows that he cannot.
My advice for Kumioko would be to stay right away from en:wp for a year. No block evasion, even for constructive edits. No unblock requests. Don't even read the drama boards. By all means contribute at other sites, but do not use Commons or Meta for endless recitals of your en:wp grievances. Forget them, forget en:wp, do other things, get a life. In a year, things will be in better perspective: if you are then ready to put all this behind you, and you still want to contribute, ask again. JohnCD (talk) 18:34, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support There has been too much disruption from him in multiple avenues. Kumioko's recent behavior shows that he hasn't changed and doesn't appear to be willing to change. This temperament doesn't fit well in a community that requires civility and cooperation. Mike VTalk 18:48, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - Enough is enough. Not that I think this will actually result in keeping him off the wiki - until the WMF adds better blocking tools, that's almost a hopeless case. With that said, I hope that Kumioko will choose to stay away; it's certainly better for all involved. Obsessions are good for no one. -Philippe (talk) 22:08, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. This freaking guy again. Should have never been unblocked/unbanned. Doc talk 02:41, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Exactly. I don't want to re-open old wounds, but it was a bad decision then, and it was a bad decision now. It is not true that everyone is redeemable, or it may simply be that because we are here to build an encyclopedia, we don't have the excessive amount of time and effort it would take to redeem him, especially when he refuses to meet us even part-way. BMK (talk) 04:52, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • That would be here. When you're making angry "Why doesn't this exist?!?" denunciations, it helps if you get the name right. ‑ iridescent 06:53, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Ah, yes, I see. My bad! What a gallery of socks (that we know of). We shouldn't ban him. Let's give him a present! Doc talk 07:02, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • OPPOSE - I've meditated on this !vote a bit longer than I would normally have; for I have supported Kumioko, at times in the past, to then witness a regrettable decline of conduct by him. Many are suggesting his conduct after the current unblock is but another example, but I don't see it this way. I think the calls to welcome Kumioko back into the community by site banning him are based in hyperbole, and frankly: I am not nearly as narcissistic as those who suggest Kumioko's presence can so drastically effect our ability to function as editors. He certainly is not a "known liability" – that's fear mongering pure and true, and I'm just not buying it.--John Cline (talk) 11:15, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support, being banned from Wikipedia isn't the best experience in life. However, how one conducts oneself while being blocked or banned is a sign of whether or not one is ready to return to Wikipedia. Reguyla's past threats of socking & coming through on those threats, warrants a full year ban. If he can show restraint & stay entirely away from Wikipedia, the entire time his block/ban runs? then I'll support his return. PS: Note that I served a 1-year ban & so have a unique PoV on this matter. GoodDay (talk) 13:15, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support per BMK. Every damned time this name comes up the biggest can of worms erupts. It's time to close the can once and for all. Losing a veteran admin and forcing the community to admonish another one of the most respected ones is, in my book, basically spitting in the face of the community. Quite frankly, this is a case of an editor who is never ever going to be worth unblocking regardless of their past contributions. Blackmane (talk) 15:29, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support (including proviso that the ban can only be contested by application to the BASC or ArbCom). I appreciate that those in favour of extending a further olive branch mean well, but please can we stop wasting time on giving fourth/fifth/sixth etc chances to perennially problematic users? WJBscribe (talk) 11:04, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - Wikipedia is not therapy and it is not a support group. Competence and the ability to collaborate in at least a semi-professional manner is necessary and important, and being prolific is not a substitute for being able to work cooperatively with human beings. Kumioko/Reguyla has proven that he does not have that ability and the project should recognize that simple fact, take the appropriate and permanent step of removing him from this environment, and move on. Nathan T 17:00, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support siteban. Kumioko is not Rootology (talk · contribs). He is not (insert any of several "difficult" content producers). Rootology was site banned, then was unblocked and became a huge benefit. During his ban, he didn't sock, he didn't rail against every admin and every editor who disagreed with him, and he actually changed the behavior which caused his banning. The same can be said of all of the active editors who have been mentioned by others in this thread; they don't turn into centipedes when blocked, and they don't beg for unblocks, then immediately violate the terms of the unblock with their very first edit. Kumioko is an enormous time sink, and while I won't be grabbing my pitchfork and torch to head up to the Frankenstein castle Worm hole, I think that the unblock was a very bad idea. I respect most of the editors who oppose the siteban, but I don't see Kumioko as likely to become a net positive to the project. Horologium (talk) 22:30, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Opppose Indefs against constructive editors because they've gotten pissed off and done something unconstructive is pointless, itself unconstrutive, and just serves to turn would-be-editors-again into vociferous WP-is-a-cesspool enemies, for no good reason. See alt. proposal below.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  05:59, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
  • I find it unrealistic to think that anger or being "pissed off" has anything to do with their actions. The vandalism, extortion, and abuse occurred over a period of years. Do you think he was pissed off for years? If they are pissed off for years that is not a good sign. More realistically their actions are more based in their personality than a transient emotional state. HighInBC 14:48, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. I'm not sure whether I'm involved here, as I vaguely remember interacting - as an admin - with Kumioko over some unpleasantness or other - but in any case the deplorable record of this editor, as explained e.g. by Newyorkbrad above, calls for a community ban as a matter of course. We must get rid of antisocial editors as fast as possible, no matter what their merits as content creators may be. That's because such editors disrupt the editing environment for many other people who are just as good contributors but who do not have such character flaws.  Sandstein  08:58, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support; This thread is proof enough that conduct like this is nothing more than a time-sink on the community, something that we don't need. Kharkiv07 (T) 14:12, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support ban. I get it that he has done some good content work and some good vandal fighting. But when I weigh that against the huge time-sink that he has created, I'm seeing a net negative. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:53, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Alternate proposal: Postpone action until the block is lifted[edit]

I propose that Reguyla/Kumioko's existing one month ban remain in place, and that a discussion regarding the terms which would be imposed for him to allow to return to active editing take place shortly thereafter, after a broad-based community discussion. This return might reasonably involve some degree of Arbitration Committee involvement in the final outcome and in the process of determining such terms, as per the discussion above.

  • Support as proposer. I have Kumioko possibly longer than many others here, and while I acknowledge his lack of self-awareness and extremely unfortunate tendency toward self-dramatization are offputting at best, and such that many might reasonably find them insufferable, that he has been a productive editor in the past and that the unfairness he perceives, rightly or wrongly, in the existing sanctions might well be itself a significant factor in the degree to which the above problems have been manifest.
    Also, frankly, it is extremely hard for me to imagine many, if any, individuals who would see the community taking a slightly lenient position in this particular case as being an indicator of how they can personally terrorize, for lack of a better word, the community into getting a block or ban lifted. Any individual who has seen the remarkable degree of what some might call obsession Reguyla/Kumioko has displayed regarding his sanctions will, I think, realize that there are damn few people in the world who would be willing to go to such remarkable extremes to get such a sanction overturned. I know that there would be no way I would, under any circumstances. That being the case, I cannot see this proposal as being a "blueprint" for more than the smallest handful of others to get similar restrictions on them lifted, because, honestly, few if any other people would display the remarkable single-mindedness Reguyla/Kumioko has displayed in this regard. It is certainly possible that in his particular case there has been a degree of injustice in his own treatment which few if any others would encounter or perceive. If that is the case here, and I acknowledge that I think it could be, it might, maybe, be in the best interests of the community to examine how it may have been less than fair, and do what it can to correct that. Also, honestly, if unacceptable conduct continues thereafter from Reguyla or others, such that Reguyla is banned again, I cannot see how anyone would think that the community itself, which will by that time have bent over to a possibly unprecedented degree to try to address previous concerns, could have any degree of responsibility for the circumstances leading to that theoretical final sanction. John Carter (talk) 17:23, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose Seriously? No. There's absolutely no reason to wait a month to take action. If you want such an unblock discussion to take place, have it in a year. --NeilN talk to me 17:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose: You know I would have supported this if Reguyla just kept his mouth shut and let the community discuss. However, his responses below show a serious lack of acknowledgement and a serious persecution complex. This level of obsession is not a good thing and the level of discontent the community has shown with his behavior is enough to show that any attempt to bring him back into the fold is likely to fail. Especially at this stage. Waiting a month is not going to change that. I doubt waiting a year will change anything but that is to be seen. He failed to abide by the restrictions set by WTT and he failed in less than 24 hours. How can anybody stand to trust this user to abide by any restrictions? Enough is enough. --Stabila711 (talk) 17:32, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose Absolutely not. BMK (talk) 17:41, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • 'Oppose. Regrettably no reason to believe that this would end any differently to the most recent unblock. If he can stay out of trouble for a year (which on past conduct seems unlikely given that he has a long pattern of evading bans and abusing people off-wiki) then maybe we should consider unbanning him. The Land (talk) 17:50, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose We do not ever reward users who disrupt wikipedia by giving them what they want. Postponing only defers the implementation of the community's will in which there is a snowball's chance in hell that the User who has been blocked will reform in the 1 month of block time (considering that they've been in various states of restriction for 2 years) and that there already was a reasonable consensus to not let this user come back to begin with. If I had any glimmer of hope that Kumioko could respect the terms of the block (which they've repeatedly demonstrated no interest in respecting via evasion/massive IP sock hopping/using backchannels to get his "truth" out/etc) I'd be willing to hold the CBAN in abayance but the proxied in statements are absolute non-starters no matter how you slice it. Recovering from a block/ban requires the user to understand how their actions put them in that state. Hasteur (talk) 17:58, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose No... as those above have said. You don't reward bad behaviour. He has had plenty of chances to reform and has blown them all. -DJSasso (talk) 18:41, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose, especially since the first several edits after the unblock were blatant violations of the terms of his unblock. Usually in a case like that you reinstate the block. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 19:02, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose We already tried giving him terms for return, twice(at least). He failed to honour those terms both times. I don't think the community wants him back. I think unblocking a person who has repeated said they will harm Wikipedia until they are unblocked is begging for other blocked users to engage in extortion. The extortion is a deal breaker, he has basically made it so we cannot welcome him back or we are capitulating to extortion. The argument that others will not do this because they are not as determined as Reg fails the laugh test. HighInBC 20:21, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose - A permanent ban from every Wikimedia website is overdue. Community patience, extended repeatedly, is exhausted. This is a sober judgement from concerned editors, not a mob action, as a few are attempting to characterize it. Jusdafax 21:14, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Some here clearly do not agree with it, but WTT setting the terms of the restriction was an administrator action, and unless you can persuade WTT to allow a longer block or show that somehow his setting restrictions as a condition for unblocking was against policy, changing the block to longer than one month would be a clear case of wheel warring. Once the 1-month block expires You have to wait until Reguyla violates a restriction or a policy before you can block him again. If Reguyla keeps his nose clean from now on, then certain people will simply have to slake their thirst for blood somewhere else. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:05, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
You're wrong. No admin action is set in stone and every action is reviewable and changeable by community consensus. --NeilN talk to me 23:34, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Update: I have been in contact with Reg elsewhere, in a place readily visible I don't want to reveal because I myself have my own love of melodramatic tendencies and silly little secrets, which, given my user name, among other things, is probably kind of obvious to everybody anyway. That conversation is, more or less, in relation to putting together content elsewhere in the WMF relating to topics of interest to him, like military biographies, and then having the material there used to develop missing and poor articles here. Speaking strictly for myself, I would like to maybe have it possible, if work of that type is done, to make it possible for him to receive the "credit" for an edit here. I think one thing that might be useful, and which might be overlooked in a forum such as this one, but not be at ArbCom or elsewhere, a limited activity unblock to develop the poorly developed or missing content here which can be imported from wikisource or elsewhere. Unfortunately, I don't think myself that at this time, whatever the merits or lack of merits of such an idea, that it being introduced at this rather late date will necessarily have much effect on those who have already expressed opinions. Having said that, however, I am going to @Worm That Turned: and @Dennis Brown: for information on whether their contact with him indicated Reguyla had a specific limited field of primary interest, and, if it did, whether it might be worth perhaps allowing if nothing else a "work release" form of ban lift to develop some of the content related to that specific field of interest. John Carter (talk) 23:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
John: Your comment above could easily be construed as conniving with a blocked (soon to be re-banned) editor to circumvent his block/ban. My advice is to think very carefully about what you're doing. Worm That Turned is one of the best admins we have here, but that didn't protect him when he tried to help Kumioko (inadvisably, I believe), it just put him in the middle of a "shitstorm" of criticism, a lot of it unwarranted, but some of it justified. That is the last thing you would want, I would think, but Kumioko is like a black hole, sucking in good intentions and giving nothing back. I seriously suggest that you not pursue this scheme. Kumioko is, honestly, not worth it, his value to the project before he went off the deep end has been consistently overstated, as you woyuld see if you investigated some of his vaunted 500K edits. BMK (talk) 07:59, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose per my support above - I've lost track at the amount of chances he's had & blown here!, Not even sure if it's worth posting here ... –Davey2010Talk 01:50, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • The discussion is at wikisource:User talk:John Carter, which I thought would have been obvious given the nature of my own comment below suggesting that he do as much. On that page, I have suggested that he develop content related to the matter of medal of honor winners, which seems to be his primary focus of interest, there, and then, as the content there is develped allow him the limited right, almost certainly under some restrictions beyond that topic, so that his edits for an at this point indefinite time are limited to that content. I have also removed the material which had previously collapsed this section, based in part on the rather strange and to my eyes clearly out-of-process premature collapse of this subthread. We have already had individuals below state that the thread will be reviewed in roughly four or five days at this point, and I cannot see any reason to preemptively judge any proposal in advance, particularly considering the lack of any full consideration of the proposal being offered to this date. Again, under the circumstances, I thought it would have been obvious that was where the discussion was taking place, and my apologies for having apparently been mistaken there. John Carter (talk) 14:42, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • You have gotten your response John. People don't agree with your proposal. You say you have not gotten full consideration, I say that you got it but you just don't like the answer. The closure discussion is about the proposal above, this proposal came later and I don't see anyone suggesting it run a full week. HighInBC 15:35, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Although I clearly thank you for so clearly both misrepresenting my earlier statement, in which I said four or five days, not a week, and for making it clear that you did not read Callanecc's comment to the effect that it would be closed on the 12th, which is in four or five days, I also feel obliged to point out that your conduct in this thread has already been found to be at times at best counterproductive, but that hasn't apparently had any impact on your conduct. Also, honestly, I have not gotten a full response yet, as the only response which has been made since I posted a link to the relevant discussion elsewhere, so your statement is also one which some might not unreasonably call dishonest. A reasonable attempt to deal with all concerns would actually involve directly dealing with them, rather than jumping to conclusions, and, honestly, I haven't seen any direct response yet. John Carter (talk) 15:42, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Yes John you told me on your talk page and my talk page that you don't think much of my behaviour. No need to tell me in a third place. You may note I have invited you to discuss my behaviour on my talk page, this is not the place. As for the topic at hand, 11 people responded to you. Perhaps you have not gotten the response you wanted, but you got a response. HighInBC 15:48, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • @HighInBC: Regarding your insistence that you apparently have an absolute right to use this page to discuss my behavior while at the same time insisting that I cannot discuss yours, particularly considering in one of the hatted sections below it is clear that I am not the first one to question your conduct here, may I perhaps suggest you read WP:HYPOCRISY. John Carter (talk) 16:07, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • If Reguyla can do useful work at Wikisource, that's splendid, but I think a "limited unblock" here on en:wp is a seriously bad idea. That is what WTT just tried; why do you think it would go any better next time? JohnCD (talk) 15:53, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • You have no idea how grateful I am to see that someone has actually read what I said. Thank you. To my thinking, the only limitation to the block would be to pages particularly relevant to the contnet he develops elsewhere, either at wikisource or wikia, where the content here is clearly of a lesser quality than that elsewhere. If there were any sort of way to do something along the lines of a protected edit request or something along those lines, that would be the extent of the lift of the limit that I would be considering. Or maybe calling it a single-topic unban might be another way of saying it. To my eyes, again, the limitations would be at least in the beginning extremely limiting, to specifically and obviously related articles here. I acknowledge, not being an admin, I don't know how many such have been done, but I think it might be workable and that it might be possible for ArbCom perhaps with community input to devise a specific way it could be done which might give him a way to at least to a limited degree show here that he can be a good editor, and, maybe, to help him concentrate on what he is good at, content development in that area. John Carter (talk) 16:07, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • I read the link. It did not change anything, it is the same thing just in a different place. You keep insisting that the link was not read by anyone. I read it and I see Reg complaining that everything is someone else's fault. I see you expressing regret in their behaviour and pointing out issues with how they have handled themselves, I see you criticizing that he boasts about policy violations. You keep acting like we are opposing this because we are not informed. Which part of that conversation is supposed to make me reconsider your proposal? HighInBC 16:11, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Where did you get the impression that your individual response is, as your comment above seems to at least strongly indicate, the one and only thing that anyone could be seeking here? I thought this site was directed by group consensus, and your comment above seems to at least imply that, in your eyes, your individual response is the only thing that might matter here. John Carter (talk) 16:15, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • No idea where you got that idea from. If you look very carefully you will see there is a clear consensus here to reject this proposal, a consensus that you reverted the closure of twice. I am asking you why this link to the conversation should in any way change our minds, it seems to only re-enforce the consensus reached here. HighInBC 16:17, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support this alt. proposal as the obviously proper way to go about this, due to the fragmentary and oft-contradictory way in which this editors' issues have been approached. The new block is long enough for him to rethink, and I think it's very clear that a renewal of the "admins are vermin"-style ranting will result in an immediate indef without further discussion or reconsideration.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  06:08, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The argument that he was "a productive editor in the past" might have held weight if we did not have years of harassment and attacks in the interim. Frankly John, it is time for you to accept that the editor you knew a half decade ago is gone and not coming back. And it is time for you to accept that the only thing your proposal offers the community is more unnecessary and pointless drama. Resolute 14:34, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose There is no need to enable the bad behavior again and again. MarnetteD|Talk 14:40, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. What MarnetteD said, plus adding there is no reason to waste the community's time even more than it has already been wasted. Softlavender (talk) 14:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose While I laud John Carter's efforts, my reading of Kumioko/Reguyla's comments at the wikisource page shows that nothing has changed. While I've not interacted with Kumioko, I've paid attention to the the train wreck that is his descent into the hole that he has dug for themselves. John summed up K's lack of humility quite nicely. Every time I've read anything about Kumioko, I have never ever seen them take responsibility for anything that they've made happen. Everything is someone elses's fault. I don't see anything changing sufficiently in the next month any more than it has changed over the last couple of years, since they were originally blocked, to the point that letting K back in would result in a positive collaborative atmosphere. While there are a number of editors who are viewed as troublesome and interactions with them occasionally boil over, at no time have they deliberately set out to damage the encyclopedia or threatened to. Blackmane (talk) 02:35, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. More than enough of the community's time has been spent on this over the last four years. There is no reason whatsoever to think that in one month's time, anything will have changed. One simply has to read Reguyla's comments here, on his talk page and at wikisource:User talk:John Carter to see that. He was offered a change to a six month's block after his first ban on the proviso that he cease causing disruption and cease socking for those 6 months. He did neither and yet blames everyone but himself. He violated the conditions for his latest unblock with his very first edit and kept at it. Ditto. It is time to stop enabling this behaviour. Voceditenore (talk) 17:41, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Please don't close too early[edit]


Statement from Reguyla[edit]

A highly personal opinion on the infamous "unpleasant but productive" editors[edit]

Statement from WTT[edit]


Discussion seems to have finished and in agreement. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 03:20, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This thread is 163,127 bytes and growing, currently 46% of this page. Does anyone object to this all being moved to a dedicated subpage with a link left behind? I am sure every other topic here will appreciate it. HighInBC 19:14, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

I've no objection. —Jeremy v^_^v Bori! 20:50, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
I, on the other hand, do object. AN can cope with this size thread for a few days, its not ANI, and historically, threads go to subpages to to turn into walled gardens where only the people who have a vested interest hang around. If there is one thing that is good for this sort of situation, its fresh eyes. WormTT(talk) 21:21, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Okay. HighInBC 22:06, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, if we're going to great lengths to avoid any appearance of unfairness, I think it's necessary to keep it on the main page. BMK (talk) 22:58, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Well he is saying now that we can close this any time. Perhaps it will not be open the entire week. HighInBC 23:05, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
If only to remove any possibility of the user trying to revoke their approval of us moving forward, I strongly oppose any attempt to move faster. This user has attempted to use the "I was railroaded" argument multiple times and I want it read in no uncertain terms that this was a deliberate and considered position. Hasteur (talk) 03:00, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

There is some wisdom to that. I will leave it as an exercise to the closer(s). HighInBC 03:07, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Could he be redeemed?[edit]

Reguyla/Kumioko's sockpuppets[edit]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Arbitration Committee comment regarding community ban of Reguyla[edit]

The Arbitration Committee notes the community discussion above. If the proposal is enacted, an appeal from Reguyla will be heard by the whole Committee (not just the appeals sub-committee) without requiring prior appeals on-wiki (using the {{unblock}} template or otherwise) or to UTRS. If any appeal by Regulya is declined, they may not appeal again within 12 months, or any longer interval the Committee communicates to them. Any appeal should be sent by email to Thryduulf (talk) 00:25, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Thryduulf Does "will be heard" mean "will only be heard"? NE Ent 00:32, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
The Committee will not require a prior appeal on wiki or to UTRS. Whether an appeal to those venues is permitted is a matter for the community. Speaking personally, it is my understanding that if this proposed ban is enacted then they would not be permitted. Thryduulf (talk) 00:40, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Unfortunately that's not the case, per Wikipedia:Banning_policy#Appeals_and_discussions, "Bans imposed by the community may be appealed to the community," and a decision by AN community Oct 2015 cannot bind a future AN community. NE Ent 01:15, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
If this proposal is enacted, the conditions of this proposal will apply - i.e. appeal only to the arbitration committee. A future consensus at AN may altar the or remove the conditions of the ban, but the conditions imposed here would apply until that point. A community proposal for a community ban will not result in an arbitration committee block. Thryduulf (talk) 01:47, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Regarding the whole committee vs BASC, then yes the appeal will only be heard by the full committee; however in practical terms an appeal sent to BASC would just be passed to the whole committee internally and would not be rejected only for that reason. Thryduulf (talk) 00:44, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Note: This section is not intended for discussion, any comments that are not clarification requests or responses to clarification requests by an arbitrator may be removed. Thryduulf (talk) 01:47, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Blocking of T Mobil IP's for a long time (several months)??????[edit]

I have noticed over the past month or two or more that IP's starting with 172 have been blocked. A message pops up when trying to edit saying all 172. IP's are blocked until December. This is preventing thousands of editors who use tablets, smart phones, etc. I tried to create an account and that was blocked as well. It absurd to block millions of T Mobil users. I guess Wikipedia is becoming a more exclusive club. Remember exclusive means less relevant and if it becomes to exclusive it becomes endangered. (talk) 09:00, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

You'll need to give us more information - specifically what does the block message say. Looking down the Range block database for blocking starting 172 and ending in December 2015, I see by @Materialscientist: which says "Long-term abuse, WP:BLP violations". It looks like you've experienced collateral damage, and as long as Wikipedia is available for anyone to edit anonymously, this situation will remain. If you have an account, you should have enough information to post an unblock request on your talk page, which can be reviewed. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:02, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Use {{Unblock}} on the account talk page, and simply say you're caught in a range block for the reason. NE Ent 11:25, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Quoting original user: "I tried to create an account and that was blocked as well."  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  11:27, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
And without knowledge of which account this is, there's nothing we can do about it. For all I know, the disruptive user in question is the one who reported it; even if not, the block may be justified for other reasons. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 12:09, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
How many IP's does the block hit? Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:31, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
It effects all American T mobile users which effects millions of people. I am unaware if it effects Canadian users as well but I believe it does. Why is it blocked for so long? As far as I can tell reading the myriad of bureaucratic rules this violates policy concerning broad long term range blocks. It appears this type of block is already sufficiently covered and recommended against. Additionally account creation is blocked as well. Why would anyone completely block millions of T Mobile users? (talk) 17:14, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
The block (like any /18) hits 16,384 IPs. This is Not all of T-Mobile, as they also use the ranges shown here (10,649,856 addresses total). The blocking admin (User:Callanecc) may be interested in contributing to this discussion. I will notify -- Diannaa (talk) 18:56, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
I don't think this is Callanecc. His block is superseded by block #1586 by Materialscientist. The other blocks belong to Elockid who is having the more dramatic impact. I'm sure they have their reasons.
  • 494 16 Elockid
  • 826 16 Elockid
  • 1701 23 Callanecc
  • 1729 21 Elockid
  • 1586 18 Materialscientist
We haven't been getting bombarded with unblock requests so the IP can simmer isn't as they describe.:
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 20:57, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I've blocked the IP as a sock. The account, User:Davidromano67 is one of his...based on the way that account looks in editing history there are probably more. I would leave all the range blocks in place...looks like it is having an effect on some of them. :)
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 21:46, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The Range block database appears to be wrong, which is consistent with Wikipedia:Database reports saying "many database reports are consequently broken. The actual record can be viewed at [13]; (note: I wasn't smart enough to figure that out myself, but I was smart enough to ask Diannaa on their talk page.) NE Ent 22:59, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, NE Ent. It has the appearance that Callanecc only modified Material's pre-existing block without changing anything just so he could get the "<!-- ACC ignore -->" comment in there so that (guessing) the audit subcommittee or whatever audit group doesn't screw up and undo it. :) Forget it,, it isn't going to happen no matter how much you wikilawyer.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 23:27, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
"<!-- ACC ignore -->" is so that users who create accounts at WP:ACC don't defer the request to CheckUsers. Regarding the blocks, there are heaps and heaps of hits in the CheckUser log indicating that there are many sockpuppeteers using these ranges so they are unlikely to be unblocked. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 01:44, 10 October 2015 (UTC) and are not allocated to T-mobile. Both those companies are webhosts. Elockid(Boo!) 13:53, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Request to end enforced wikibreak.[edit]

Hey! Can an admin please edit User:Brustopher/common.js to end the enforced wikibreak on my main account? My exams finished far earlier than I expected when I set it. Thank you in advance. Bosstopher2 (talk) 16:54, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done. Please consider updating the link on your userpage. -- zzuuzz (talk) 17:01, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by Mohsin17[edit]

Hello everyone. I am requesting the attention of the administrative noticeboard regarding continued disruptive editing by Mohsin17 (talk · contribs) after a recent block expiration.[14]

Since October 2013, [15] Mohsin17 has flagrantly ignored repeated requests from the community asking that he or she puts an end to the continued introduction of unsourced content, be it in the form of unsourced original research or poorly sourced content attributed to blogs/web forums. [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24]

See also the related discussion at Wikipedia talk:Notice board for Pakistan-related topics#Pakistani_cities_Transport_and_Economy_section

We have shown good faith to this editor for 2 years, and the responses received show an absolute defiance to our policies, going as far as making claims of discrimination. [25] [26] I feel that I, along with several other editors, have exhausted all attempts at communication with this individual and am now requesting community feedback on how to best proceed. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 17:36, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I have not ignored any requests by youtaor t anyone.The fact is that only a single person has objection on content added me and that's you. You are continuously targeting me, deleting my material and spreading hatred against me. Your behavior is totally biased Mohsin17 (talk) 20:03, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
If reverting your edits while assuming good faith to keep Wikipedia in accordance with policy and sending you notes to remind you of that means you're a target, then I don't know what to say. As multiple editors, Yamaguchi included, all agree that your edits are disruptive, you are by no means being targeted by an individual. It seems like that because you're the one in the spotlight. However, if you stop your disruptive editing and start editing productively, you'll find that you'll stop being called out. Amaury (talk) 20:24, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Mohsin17, please make note of my response to you at Wikipedia talk:Notice board for Pakistan-related topics which reads:
Mohsin17, numerous messages have been left on your talk page indicating that original research is not permitted on Wikipedia, and that sources are required for all significant content changes. I see on your talk page that you have been notified at least 5 times between now and October 2013, so I do not understand why you are continuing to add unsourced and otherwise poorly sourced content to these articles. Please adhere to our editorial policies and guidelines and I wish you well in you future endeavors. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 18:01, 2 October 2015 (UTC).
You are welcome to contribute to Wikipedia, provided that your contributions can be attributed to reliable third party source. Take the List of rapid transit systems in Pakistan article for example, where you have continued to dismiss our WP:V policy by introducing original research or using web forums hosted by SKYSCRAPERCITY.COM as a reference despite requests not to. Examples of sources you have used recently include: - - - - et cetera. These are unacceptable per WP:USERGENERATED, please review Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources or request assistance from the community via the respective talk page. Persistent edit warring in opposition of our core policies is not the way. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 21:01, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Kevin McCarthy and Renee Ellmers[edit]

Just a heads up that these two articles have hit the headlines after Homeland Security IPs were identified as having edited them. There could be a fair bit of activity picking in the coming days, which may bring about some potential BLP violations. I would recommend that admins be ready with ArbCom DS notifications relating to BLP's and American Politics 2. Blackmane (talk) 09:47, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Also, revdels, blocks, page protections etc. Blackmane (talk) 14:54, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
Which Kevin McCarthy, though? GoodDay (talk) 14:56, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
this one--MONGO 15:08, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Kevin McCarthy (California politician)  · Salvidrim! ·  15:10, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
As I suspected, the Speaker who never was :) GoodDay (talk) 17:07, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
Apologies, I should have checked that it didn't just go to a DAB page. Blackmane (talk) 01:54, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't think DS imposition is necessary. There already have been some revdels. Right now both articles are semi-protected and being well monitored. A DS notification would just make it harder for the people who are monitoring and maintaining the article. --MelanieN (talk) 03:32, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Abusive Redirect[edit]

Sock has been blocked by Bbb23. —SpacemanSpiff 04:14, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

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The page Sindhu Bhairavi is constantly redirected to the page Uttaran by User:TheRedPenOfDoom. So please rectify this problem and protect Sindhu Bhairavi (TV series) from being redirected again.Devmahatma (talk) 03:37, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

The page is being redirected because it is a non notable language dub of a show that has not established that the original is notable. Any admin action should be to lock the redirect to prevent the nonsense recreation. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:45, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, looks like a content fork to me. There's some stuff worth moving over to the original article. --NeilN talk to me 03:57, 11 October 2015 (UTC) Not the eye-blinding colors though --NeilN talk to me 03:59, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Speedy deletion request (CSD tags don't work)[edit]

Thanks to User:zzuuzz for cleaning this up. --ais523 08:18, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please could somebody delete MediaWiki:Undeleteextrahelp/enCA under WP:CSD#G8?

The situation is that the page was created at the wrong title (it should end "en-CA" or it won't serve its technical function), and was renamed on my request. I've since tried to get the redirect speedied (on the basis that redirects in MediaWiki:-space doesn't work), and admins have agreed with me, but because I put the speedy tag on the talk page (I can't put it on the interface page itself for obvious reasons), the talk page got deleted, which isn't very useful.

Because the "standard" CSD tagging method isn't really working in this situation, I decided to ask over at AN instead. So here I am. --ais523 07:55, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Oh, and just as a note, ensure you delete the redirect itself, not its target. The software might not follow redirects in MediaWiki:-space, but clicking on links to them will still take you to the redirect target. --ais523 07:56, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done -- zzuuzz (talk) 08:09, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Request to lift temporary topic-ban[edit]

I request that this purely punitive two-month topic ban (the continuation of which has a purely punitive effect, however preventative it was intended when issued)) by Future Perfect at Sunrise be lifted; it has been one month to the day so far. It's certainly not preventative of anything: The admittedly disruptive dispute at WT:MOS had already wound down and had moved to WP:ANEW; and two editors arguing about behavior at a noticeboard that exists for resolving behavioral disputes is not disruptive (though this WP:ACDS topic ban actually derailed that dispute resolution without any resolution being reached).

I can respond here, to address any questions or concerns over the next day, but I'm preparing to travel to Washington DC for WikiConference 2015, so I'm not sure when I'll be able to respond between late 7 Oct. and ca. 9 Oct, and will be AFK for much of 7 Oct., though available for a couple of hours from this posting, and again ca. 12 hours after it.

The ban was applied one-sidedly on a technicality (the other editor's discretionary sanctions alert had expired), although the admin had initially intended it to apply equally to both parties [27]. My repeated requests, on my own talk page (see [28], [29], [30], and [31] and that of the admin (see [32], [33], and [34]) for it to be narrowed or even clarified as to what it really means, have been totally ignored, as was my request (see diffs above from my own talk page) for evidence of its justification (the admin made accusations without diffing any evidence to support them, which is among the things that WP:ARBATC in particular was enacted to restrain, ironically). Weirdly, despite saying they would address these questions and concerns promptly [35], the admin has been active the entire time, even issuing further topic bans to others, then later archived the requests without any comment or action.

I've been just living with this TB in good faith, but it's getting to WP:IAR levels of impracticality at this point. All it's doing is muzzling me from routine participation, having the WP equivalent of a chilling effect on my ability and willingness to edit. I have a big pile of reliable sources to add to the affected article, and am just sitting on them twiddling my thumbs. The article in its present state is so bad that The Guardian publicly criticized Wikipedia for it, and that newspaper article is still in top-ten Google search results for the subject [36]. All this TB is doing is preventing me from genuinely improving a public-eyesore article (a genuine PR problem for WP) with RS research I've already done. Well, it's also denying me the ability to participate in any MoS-related discussion, despite the disruptive discussion having been very narrowly focused on one topic, and entirely a two-editor pissing match, not a general brou-ha-ha; a far more useful approach would have been an interaction ban for a while. But even that would not be needed at this point; ironically, I was in the middle of drafting a constructive olive-branch message for the other editor's talk page when FPaS dropped the TB bomb on me, and its overreaching scope actually prohibits me from posting it! What good is a TB that prevents editors trying to work out their differences?

I concede that my tone was intemperate in the original dispute, and it was a mistake on my part to allow myself to engage in a dispute that became too heated, circular, and lengthy. One month is more than enough time to re-think my approach to this issue entirely (namely just sourcing the question reliably beyond most further argument – though the overbroad TB actually prevents me from doing this! – instead of continuing to argue back and forth about the matter, and starting at the article, where resolving this really matters the most, since it's our encyclopedia content, not an internal question of style guide wording). I also have a long history of coming to peaceable terms with editors with whom I've had vociferous disputes in the past, and I look forward to that kind of resolution with the other editor in the dispute behind this incident (with whom I already agree much of the time on most matters). If not for this TB we probably would already have such a resolution.

 — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  05:08, 7 October 2015 (UTC) Added info about The Guardian article and prevention of user-talk dispute resolution.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  04:58, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

  • Support In looking, it looks like SMcCandlish used dispute resolution , rather than just edit war, to resolve the issue and it didn't work, further, he politely contacted Future Perfect at Sunrise for clarification and it looks like FPOS just brushed him off. I'd say lift it. KoshVorlon 10:48, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Update:' Off to WikiConference. Probably incomunciado for a day or so.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  11:28, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
    Got airport wifi for a few hours, if anyone wants to ask anything.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  06:34, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support, I think. I'll admit I haven't read over everything because frankly there's a lot of it and it's pretty dry reading. But I think it's worth giving SMc the chance here, he's handled the banning admin's lack of communication pretty well and he does sound like he's learned from the situation. Worst case scenario, the topic ban just gets reimposed, but I judge the chances of that happening pretty small. Jenks24 (talk) 11:35, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Request closure in favor of the request: This was open so long, without opposition, and without further comment but the supports, that a bot already auto-archived it once. If there are any questions/concerns, I have WiFi for about 20 min. (WikiConference is closed now, I'm at a café), and will again a few hours after that, at the airport.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  21:53, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
  • The bot shouldn't have archived this rather new thread so quickly. I think it deserves more feedback if admins who are familiar with the topic ban could weigh in. Liz Read! Talk! 23:17, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Just lift it. I've already supported above, but this has been open for what four or five days and no one has opposed. FPAS is a good admin and I'm not saying the topic ban was a bad decision – certainly from what I glanced on my watchlist it was becoming an unhealthy and unproductive discussion for those involved – but it's now a month on and even FPAS doesn't seem to want to comment here (he has been editing while this discussion has been open) and say that the topic ban should continue. SMc will know he's treading a fine line in this area for a while and it's not like MoS talk pages are unwatched by anyone – I'm sure in the unlikely event he does anything silly it will be easy to come back here and re-apply, but in the meantime we should AGF for a long-term contributor who has clearly learned from the situation. Jenks24 (talk) 01:48, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
  • OP calls the temporary topic ban "purely punitive", but I see no evidence to show that punishing him was the motivation behind it. Without supporting facts, perhaps he would be advised to strike that claim. In any event, I don't think it's appropriate to remove the topic ban without first hearing from the sanctioning admin, FPAS -- which could also shed light on the reason he applied the ban. So, let's call this a Procedural oppose until that happens. BMK (talk) 03:12, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
    • @Beyond My Ken:. Done. My intent was never to imply a punitive motive (what on earth would be the point of attacking FPaS's motivations when the TB was for allegedly attacking someone else's motives to begin with?), only that this long after the event, it has a punitive effect and no preventative one. See latest post on my talk page: Even the other party in the original dispute is inviting my commentary on a current MoS matter. This water isn't just under the bridge but has flowed well past it at this point.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  06:41, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
  • The point of a topic ban from MOS was to prevent you from participating at MOS. If your only real argument for lifting (from taking a look above) a reasonably placed ban is that its punitive because it prevents you from editing in the area its designed to prevent you editing in due to past behaviour... Well that is pretty much the point of it. Its 2 months. Take a break for 4 more weeks. Oppose Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:37, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
    • The point of a topic ban for anyone from anything is to prevent disruption of or relating to that topic, not (constructive) participation in it. I've already explained why the TB should be lifted early. Given that, as far as I recall, every single one of the quite infrequent disciplinary actions ever taken against me in over ten years on this project has involved a sentiment that my posts leading up to and in defense against said action are long-winded and repetitive, I decline to be drawn into another re-explanation of what I already explained in probably too much detail above already, and which others seem to be accepting without coming to the assumption of circular reasoning you are. PS: I think it's rather injust to "procedur[ally] oppose until [it] happens" that I make a retraction (of something that you simply inferred and I did not actually say), then oppose anyway after I comply.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  09:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. There’s no compelling reason to lift the topic ban early. Are we supposed to believe that we are all really being punished or deprived by not allowing him to get right back into the MOS fray that much sooner? He has maintained that the block was punitive from the very beginning with his 8-point demand for an “explanation”. "Whatever the intent, this comes across as a "punish more who ever posted more or more loudly” decision".[39] What amount of “explaining” would satisfy SMcCandlish that the topic ban was ever justified at all? Filibustering was specifically mentioned; and this continued whinging about a simple 2-month topic ban has wasted enough time. He said right off the bat "I'm not going to whine about receiving a temporary topic ban as onerous”... but here we are! To claim that "only that this long after the event, it has a punitive effect and no preventative one" flies in the face of what he’s been complaining about all along. To claim a PR issue because he is forced to "twiddle his thumbs" instead of protecting the encyclopedia is just... reaching. I don’t blame FPAS for not wanting to waste a ton of time arguing with him (though he really should comment here). SMcCandlish was given a little “time out” from MOS for two months. Plenty of other things for him to do in the meantime. Explanation time is over! Doc talk 12:19, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
    • Just for the record, Doc is hardly a neutral commenter on this matter, given that I lodged two ANI complaints about him last month, and the consensus was we should avoid interacting with each other for some while. His comment here does not appear to qualify as doing so.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  14:26, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

History merge needed for areas of Armenia[edit]

Resolved: all done. Graham87 01:34, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

A minor case of an improper move has occurred:

  1. Protected areas of Armenia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) This is the original title, created December 2009, but is now a redirect to #3.
  2. List of national parks of Armenia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) This is a redirect to #3 but has the original page history.
  3. List of protected areas of Armenia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) This is now the article, without the original contributors in the history.

I raised this at User talk:Spetsnaz1991#Copy/paste move but the editor has done a few more edits without responding, and it would be better if the issue could be fixed before anyone else edits the article. Would someone history merge #2 into #3 please. Johnuniq (talk) 01:13, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: All fixed. Graham87 01:34, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Attention needed at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Zeke1999[edit]

  1. I fear that sockmaster and sockpuppet are using TL;DR to disrupt and confuse.
  2. By posting WP:WALLOFTEXT responses at the sock investigation -- they are trying to (unfortunately) decrease the likelihood anyone will take action on this.
  3. The numerous WP:WALLOFTEXT posts all over Wikipedia can be seen as disruption, in and of itself.
  4. Please evaluate this original evidence on its merits -- and decide to take action, or not, based upon the evidence.

Thank you, — Cirt (talk) 10:46, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Also would appreciate action on behavioral evidence provided by myself and by DGG, at case page Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Riathamus000. Thank you, — Cirt (talk) 10:54, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Bebbebopp appears to be a sock[edit]

Edits are here. Should we just block this account? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:28, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

I haven't read through all of the discussions on the talk page of the article. @Doc James: do you have an opinion (evidence) on who the master may be? They are clearly not a new editor.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 23:26, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes not sure what other accounts they use. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:34, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
This is the wrong venue for this discussion. It should be taken to WP:SPI. But to do that, you need actual evidence in the form of diffs, which Doc James doesn't appear to have. It's also worth noting he doesn't appear here with exactly clean hands. He's canvassed for his position in the WP:RM discussion at Talk:Honey bucket and he's involved in a dispute on that page with Bebbebopp over what the outcome of the RM should be and also over what constitutes COI. His complaint here has a little too much of the feel of trying to take out an opponent for my taste, especially as an admin coming to an admin board where he might find friends rather than the correct venue where he might not. This complaint should be closed no action. If Doc has genuine evidence, he should take it to the proper venue. Msnicki (talk) 00:24, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Msnicki, I notice that you don't acknowledge that this account is not new and that Doc's suspicions are well-founded. You don't think this is a sock?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 00:37, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
I agree it's a new account and the behavior suggests this is someone who's been around for a while. So there's reason for suspicion. But that broad suspicion is not evidence. Evidence would be diffs showing that two accounts are likely the same person and that they're being used in a way we don't allow. It is entirely possible this is an individual who's been editing for years as an IP but finally got an account. We need evidence of wrongdoing, not just broad suspicion. And if anyone has some, the place to take it is WP:SPI, not here. Msnicki (talk) 03:02, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

IBan removal[edit]

There was a recent thread at AN/I [40] which discussed a/an WP:IBAN which was archived with no closure. The editors involved are: User:MaxBrowne and User:Ihardlythinkso. I propose that the IBan be vacated regardless of the formality of it's institution, and that both editors be judged on their own actions going forward. — Ched :  ?  02:29, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

  • Ched, I hope you don't mind if I say a word or two--some of you regulars know this is an ongoing affair. I want to ask all participants to keep it short and sweet. This is not about what these two users supposedly did wrong in the recent past, but whether the community is served by an iBan which, some argue, is not adequately enforced. Editors who were involved in that now-archived discussion, specifically in the section that discussed lifting the ban, are NE Ent, MaxBrowne of course, Sjakkalle, Cobblet, Penwhale. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 03:03, 13 October 2015 (UTC)


  • I have read through the AN/I thread, as well as a talk page thread here. I have never felt that WP:IBAN achieved it's intended goal in most cases for many reasons. If two editors do not communicate well, it is best that they avoid each other, but I feel a forced "you two can't talk to each other" does nothing but increase tensions. For these reasons, and many more, .. I Support the removal of this IBan. — Ched :  ?  02:52, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
  • For freedom to improve articles w/o added burden of observing iBAN restrictions re overlaying the each other's edits. The other editor and I have had no history of edit-warring over content. IHTS (talk) 02:57, 13 October 2015 (UTC)


  • Oppose - No benefit to building an encyclopedia has been presented which isn't true of any I-Ban at any time. Unless the original conditions which provoked the I-Ban are no longer in effect, I don't see why the ban should be lifted, especially when one of the subjects objects, and the other doesn't - implying that one of the two will benefit more than the other. The edits of Wikipedia contributors are always judged "on their own merits", and sometimes their lack of merit, which leads to sanctions such as an I-Ban. If there's a general problem in enforcing I-Bans, that's something that needs to be dealt with with the admin corps. BMK (talk) 03:16, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose I am always hesitant to lift an IBAN when both parties don't agree that it should be lifted as that generally creates greater problems. IBANs need to be enforced robustly and vigorously, if they are, they work. But as BMK says that's a problem with policy and administrative enforcement. To lift any sanction I look for the sanctioned editors to note the problematic conduct and show how they are going to change their behaviour. This is slightly different (and note I contributed to the original discussion) in that it was imposed as more of a 'no fault' IBAN, that is both editors were unable to be constructive around each other. So I'm looking to see if both of them can move forward without further drama and I can't see that so I oppose lifting the IBAN. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 04:57, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
    • Then how about you being the admin to enforce blatant edit undo violations? I went to three admins (Blade, Brad, JgZ) and got no help! Also, why don't you be the admin to tell the other editor what they can and cannot do under the iBAN, the editor has openly said they refuse to check edit histories and "don't care" if they undo edits contrary to iBAN. So far no admin has corrected the other editor's understanding, they appear to think iBAN does not apply to theirself. Also there are two edit undos that were disimprovements, and I'd like to know what you intend to do about getting the edits restored, since even the content disimprovements in violation of iBAN were pointed out at article Talk and explained at ANI as well, the other editor has not restored the edits, and has even in one case shown their intention not to, at article Talk. I've been asking for a way forward at every turn so as not to violate iBAN myself, have never received instructions or directions. I'd also like the iBAN clarified re personal derogatory remarks the other editor has made in ANIs opened re iBAN violations, and at admin article Talks. (Where is this governed or controlled at WP:IBAN?? I'm not supposed to point out the hypocrisy and dysfunctionality??) IHTS (talk) 05:44, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
      • If they edit in violation of the ban I'll block them (assuming I'm online and not on wikibreak) and that includes undoing your edits. As it is everywhere the onus is on the person making the edits to show that they are within policy (which, in this case, means checking to see if the other editor has edited the page, such as through this tool). If you give me the page histories and diffs of your edit and their undo of that edit I'll revert it as ban evasion. "Legitimate and necessary dispute resolution" does not include making "personal derogatory remarks", so if these are personal attacks or are casting aspersions then I'll make use of the block button (again assuming that they are recent and I'm online and not on wikibreak). Hope that helps. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 05:52, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
        • I'm fine with all of that. But it occurs to me iBAN lift is better for health of WP and users' time. (You do have an unusual hard & fast view re rule enforcement from your background at Arb. But yes, your offer is a way forward under the iBAN that I've been asking for, so thank you.) p.s. As long as you are forthgiving of answers, WP:IBAN prohibits editors in iBAN from "interacting" with one another, or undoing one another's edits. But it says they can edit the same articles, and even the same article Talks. My question is this: if they are permitted to edit same article Talks, and article Talks are for content, then may they or may they not make contributions to same thread in article Talks, about same issue (whether their views are different or same)? And if the answer is yes, they can contribute to same article Talk thread on same issue, as long as they do not "interact", the discussion is assumed about content, which might be content contributed to the article by any editor, even one of the two editors in iBAN, yes? So then is it OK to comment re content of the other, as long as no "interaction between users" takes place, and discussion is purely about the topic of said content? Or is content discussion limited, if the content was the contribution of one of the editors? (I've been long here to be specific and clear. My Q is in good faith. It is not my fault that WP:IBAN does not spell it out. The content discussion contributions I've described don't appear to me to be prohibited at WP:IBAN, which makes sense to me since is consistent with allowing editors to update same article and article Talks. Anyway the fact it isn't spelled out is not my fault, my Q isn't "game-playing" or "wiki-lawyering" if I in good-faith want to know. [I've already been accused and threatened from those arguments. Nothing you did, I think.]) IHTS (talk) 06:29, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
          • True, but I think IBANs need to be enforced that that, as they tend to be very easy to game.
may they or may they not make contributions to same thread in article Talks, about same issue (whether their views are different or same)? Yes they can
(editor X and Y are mutual IBAN'd) If the discussion is about content which editor X added then editor Y cannot comment (third dot point). If the discussion is about content which neither editor added then they can both comment in the discussion just not replying to each other or referring to the other's comments (intro para and second dot point).
I'm hoping that answers your question? Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 07:11, 13 October 2015 (UTC)


I have expressed my misgivings re lifting the IBAN in the thread in question. Basically, lifting the IBAN would be unacceptable to me if it means a return to the status quo which existed before. Please don't play dumb and make me explain this in detail; just refer to the original thread leading to the IBAN, and the events leading up to it. I have no wish to attack the other editor but my concerns are genuine. MaxBrowne (talk) 02:43, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

  • Comment Questions for Ched}: (1) What were the reasons the I-Ban was put in place? (2) Have those conditions changed? (3) How does removing the I-Ban help to build an encyclopedia? (4) Are you asking for the I-Ban to be removed on general principles or for a reason specific to this particular I-Ban? BMK (talk) 03:00, 13 October 2015 (UTC) @Ched: BMK (talk) 03:02, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
    • BMK, the ANI thread from last year led to the iBan, and if I had to guess I'd say it was the back-and-forthing between the two that led to some exasperation on the part of those following the discussion. I can't speak for Ched, but IMO removing it will save us time and energy on ANI and associated boards, if only because we won't be asked to investigate the technicalities of whether something was in violation of the iBan or not. (Didn't we have another such thread a couple of months ago? Didn't we have talk page discussions too?) Thanks, Drmies (talk) 03:07, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
    • BMK, "when one of the subjects objects, and the other doesn't - implying that one of the two will benefit more than the other." Do you know what you're talking about?! The other editor has expressed openly that they refuse to abide by the editing terms of the iBAN, specifically saying they refuse to check article edit histories and "don't care" whether they undo edits by the other editor. To unburden them from checking edit histories I have been doing that leg-work for them (since it's easier for me to recognize my own edits), and documenting on the respective article Talk pages where they inadvertently undid an edit. But that effort has been ignored. When I subsequently restored an overlaid edit I was reverted by the other edtor and told to "get lost". In the ANI you will see the other editor rallying support for his position that he shouldn't be under restriction of iBAN because he was working in good-faith to improve an article. I believe him (tho as explained, none of the four edit undos were improvements, and two were disimprovements). My being proponent of lifing the iBAN was for benefit of unburdening the other editor to edit freely, plus my dislike of the fact iBAN turns into a roving topic ban (for example, I'm active Project Board Games editor, the other editor created Backgammon match strategy, I'm not allowed to help improve the article, not even punctuation or grammar fixes, seeing that all the edits to that article are so far the other editor's). IHTS (talk) 04:00, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Max, I do fully understand your hesitancy here. I have had difficult discussions with IHTS in the past as well. To the point where I made a statement that I am still ashamed of (in email). I have also seen what I consider a very positive move in IHTS's approach, and I think it would be best for the project to drop any "IBan" items, and judge all editors on their own merits. — Ched :  ?  03:02, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Beyond My Ken (1) I don't know the details of the original IBan. ( 2) Since I don't know the original conditions, then No, I don't know if they've changed. (3) I think it improves the project because it removes the ambiguity of what is and what is not allowed. Each editor is judged on their own actions. (4) Partly on general principle, but also noticing an improvement (IMO) in IHTS's approach. — Ched :  ?  03:10, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - A lot of the support from admins for lifting the IBAN appears to come down to (1) "IBANs don't work anyway" (in which case, that is a matter for policy/process discussion, not a matter for discussion in relation to an individual case) (2) "I can't be arsed enforcing it" (understandable, but that's part of the "janitor's" job, isn't it? upholding community decisions?) MaxBrowne (talk) 03:57, 13 October 2015 (UTC)