Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

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Was: IBAN. Is now: lame edit war[edit]

Frankly I think this edit and particularly its edit summary have strayed over the line into WP:POINT (to say nothing of WP:LAME). I can't make up my mind whether this is blockable idiocy or just idiocy though. Guy (Help!) 08:23, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

So you're calling the editor an idiot, and wonder if you should block them... for what? A personal attack?! Is this thing on? Doc talk 08:41, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
For iBAN violations, Doc. And his comments were re editing behavior, not re a person. You're not helpful here and seem to want to kick up drama - why don't you shoo!? IHTS (talk) 08:57, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Not helpful to you maybe. That don't mean much to me. Doc talk 09:03, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Guy your two mentions of "idiocy" should either be clearly substantiated or struck. See idiot, idiot definition and WP:CIVIL. I find it painful that you start with mention of IBAN and then introduce discussion like this. GregKaye 13:48, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Ask yourself this. Who does more to improve the encyclopedia, someone who finds original sources, cites them, and generally puts a lot of time and effort into improving an article, maybe even up to GA standard, or someone who interferes with this work by carrying on a 2 year old feud and sniping from the sidelines? Not to mention admin shopping, you're the third he's tried. Damn right it's lame, as is this thread. MaxBrowne (talk) 09:06, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Ask yourself this: do we give a toss? Your edit comes across as petulant and motivated by the identity of the editor not the actual content. And, to be absolutely clear, the idiocy is bilateral: you are both behaving ridiculously. Guy (Help!) 09:14, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
So you don't give a toss about improving the encyclopedia. OK. MaxBrowne (talk) 09:18, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
No, I just don't give a toss about self-serving excuses. Every single restricted editor ever has probably thought at some level that they were improving the encyclopaedia. The whole point of restrictions such as IBANs is that the editors are engaged in good-faith editing - otherwise they'd simply be blocked. Guy (Help!) 10:27, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
^ "...the idiocy is bilateral: you are both behaving ridiculously". What a cop-out. Keep calling editors "idiots", as an admin. It will make us all look swell. Doc talk 09:21, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Oh good, a one-man peanut gallery. Guy (Help!) 10:27, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

For the record, the edit in question, not only an intentional iBAN violation, was not an improvement but a disimprovement. (I have the hardcover, out-of-print book. I expect few others have it. In it, Lasker says Black's move 15...d2! is "better", not "probably the best". Any chessplayer knows the difference. So the edit actually is inconsistent with the source.) IHTS (talk) 09:25, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

So, despite what Guy says, you are not behaving ridiculously, and MaxBrowne is. That clarifies a lot! Doc talk 09:35, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Wow, IMO, this thread just gets worse. This is not normal for AN/I. GregKaye 13:51, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

On 26 Dec 2013 IHTS inserted a wiklink to "Checkmate". On 28 Aug 2015 MaxBrowne removes it. WP:IBAN clearly states: editor X is not permitted to "undo editor Y's edits to any page (whether by use of the revert function or by other means);" MaxBrowne has therefore violated a i-ban they requested. NE Ent 09:42, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

NE Ent! Yay! Thankfully you've come in to save the day. You, frankly, rawk!!! Doc talk 09:50, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Somebody clearly has a lot of time on his hands. MaxBrowne (talk) 09:57, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
About that particular edit, I saw it too previously, but let it slide because it was so minor (and probably an improvement by the other editor). But the three incidents of overlaying text I added, I did/do object to, they haven't been improvements and now a disimprovement. It's true iBAN was never something I wanted, advising that it effectively can become a roving topic ban. (And duh, that seems to be the frustration at hand, then wanting to have it both ways.) IHTS (talk) 10:08, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
"I want the terms of the IBAN, and the consequences of violating them, to be very clearly spelled out to avoid any gaming of the system. The terms being: (1) No posting to each others user page or talk page (2) No replying to each other in discussions (3)No referring to each other directly or indirectly anywhere on wikipedia. (4) No undoing each other's edits (but we can edit the same articles so long as we keep to the terms of the iban). Basically as described in WP:IBAN and WP:BANEX. MaxBrowne (talk) 12:06, 17 April 2014 (UTC)". IHTS (talk) 10:21, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Frankly, by this stage I think you are both gaming the system. The IBAN should either be vacated or enforced, and in this case enforcement will almost certainly lead to blocks of both of you. Guy (Help!) 10:31, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
@JyZ/Guy, you openend this ANI on the basis of a revert which was intentional violation of iBAN (which was also, as shown, not an improvement but a disimprovement). How does one go about asking for enforcement of an iBAN they never wanted, when there is intentional flippant violation of it, without being accused by you of "gaming the system"? IHTS (talk) 19:01, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

All the edits complained about were made in good faith with the aim of improving the article, and were certainly not done with any intention of insulting, annoying or in any way "interacting" with the other editor. I don't think it should be necessary to search through the history of an article just in case an edit I'm about to make may overwrite some text written by an editor I'm in IBAN with 5 years ago. And for the record, I won't object (and haven't objected) if this editor in good faith overwrites some text I happen to have written in the past. Because I'm not petty like that. The point of an IBAN is to prevent disruption, not to enable petty point scoring and drama-mongering. The IBAN was imposed at my request because the constant sniping and outright abuse I was receiving from this editor was becoming intolerable. He is now using the IBAN as a weapon to snipe at me. The last edit I made to that article - sorry about that, but when you're working hard to make a good article and someone else just wants to make a nuisance of himself and start drama - it's easy to act hastily. Finally I note that this admin has previously told me "a plague on both your houses", and indicated that he "doesn't give a toss" about my content creation. He previously closed an ANI thread on the present issue inappropriately and prematurely, before it had been properly resolved. He is definitely WP:INVOLVED, and should not be the party to impose any blocks or even warnings. Neutral admin eyes are needed for this. MaxBrowne (talk) 11:30, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

MaxBrowne Can you see that an edit summary as: "Go to ANI or get lost" would better have been phrased differently? I see a potential here for a block having only considered the issue of civility but in a timespan of hours or days. GregKaye 13:57, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
A single edit out of context does not tell the whole story. This is an editor who has intentionally violated and expressed his contempt for the IBAN numerous times. Despite the IBAN he has continued to find ways to niggle me. This current excercise in petty point scoring seems to be aimed at getting the IBAN lifted, which I vehemently oppose as I have seen no change of attitude from this editor, just the same petty argumentativeness. MaxBrowne (talk) 14:10, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I'm the one on receiving end of petty sniping in editsum, and in this thread as you can see above, besides numerous times elsewheres, by the other editor, all while an iBAN is supposedly in place. Also the edit at Chess included undos of texts I'd previously written, which I also let slide. IHTS (talk) 18:50, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

The edit summary is clearly a violation of the interaction ban between MaxBrowne and Ihardlythinkso, and, thus, on its own, to my eyes is sufficient cause for a block of some length. It seems to be the first violation of the I-ban (correct me if I'm wrong, of course), so it could reasonably be a short one on that basis. Having said that, the at best dubious civility of the comment could not unreasonably lengthen the block. I might say three days in this case, maybe? John Carter (talk) 19:23, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
If you ignore the revert, which was intentional iBAN violation, then might you be encouraging more of same in future? IHTS (talk) 19:51, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
My apologies for the phrasing. I wasn't ignoring the revert. But, for the first violation of an i-ban, I think the threshold is somewhat lower. In this case, I guess I was figuring one day block for the violation. The language, over and above the factual reversion, is I think cause enough to lengthen the comparatively short first block. Of course, if others think that the "base" block of one day isn't long enough, and I can well imagine I am not current on such things, no longer being an admin myself, I could reasonably guess it might be longer, although I would still think that the language used in the violation is sufficiently concerning to extend the "base" block to some degree. John Carter (talk) 20:00, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarify. I don't know why these iBAN violations can't be handled by admins independent of ANI. Why is wide participation needed when a single admin can do something to enforce iBAN when there are violations? I asked admin Blade for help to stop the violations. He didn't. I brought to attention to admin JyZ/Guy that the revert was inconsistent with his previous ANI close. In response he opens this ANI about the revert, then without cause changes course to bad-mouth and recommend blocks. When he was at liberty to simply take his own action, or discuss with me at at his Talk. People talk about the virtue of minimizing drama & disruption; however, their actual behaviors seem constructed to maximize it. IHTS (talk) 20:43, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
The ANI thread I raised earlier was to complain about this edit, which was a direct revert of my edit and a clearcut IBAN violation. Despite my calm language, the admin, the very one who raised this thread, refused to take any action and told me "stop bickering". This edit also directly addressed me in the editsum and so is also a clearcut IBAN violation, and was a partial revert of this edit which I'd made. Sorry, I shouldn't have acted as I did, I guess I should have raised another ANI - after my last experience though I didn't have much hope that anything would get done. All of the drama is being initiated by the other party, and unfortunately facilitated by this rather uncivil admin, who should recuse himself from any further involvement in this thread. MaxBrowne (talk) 23:22, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
And you respond by continuing to revert right back. You are clearly an intelligent person, why are you unable to see that all you are doing is making it impossible to say that X violated the IBAN or Y violated the IBAN, but only that both X and Y violated the IBAN and are now behaving like kids called before teacher after a schoolyard fight? It is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Guy (Help!) 23:55, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
The word "continuing" is not accurate here since I have not previously done that. You were wrong to close the previous ANI before the issue had been properly resolved; this led me to take things into my own hands instead of raising another ANI like I should have done. You were also wrong to initiate the current ANI given your "involved" status. You initiated this ANI with an incivility, and have continued in the same vain. If anyone deserves to be blocked from this whole sorry business it's you. MaxBrowne (talk) 00:06, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

This forum (ANI) shouldn't be used by an editor in iBAN, to make derogatory remarks about another editor they are in iBAN with. That isn't "gaming the system"?! I'm not allowed "equal time", I have plenty to point out if I were, but also have no desire or taste to get into it. This one-sided slamming should be stopped. The editor did this previously in a previous ANI too, so much so that a neutral editor created a new essay about it, that an ANI about iBAN violation is no excuse for making incendiary comments about the other editor. (I can't put my finger on the essay at the moment.) IHTS (talk) 20:22, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Now the user is attempting to re-hash in this ANI, a topic (revert) addressed in a previous ANI (now closed) that they opened on it. (I'm supposed to respond all over again here, when I completely already responded there?!) IHTS (talk) 23:42, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

It's real simple: iBAN disallows undoing one another's edits. (The editor has claimed they can ignore iBAN because they have been making improvements to the article, and even elsewhere claimed WP:IAR as justification for undoing my edits. But in the three cases of undoing my edits, two weren't improvements [just roughly equal quality copyedits], and one was a disimprovement [documented above]. And at any rate, WP:IBAN doesn't exempt undoing one another's edits if one editor is "trying in good-faith to improve an article". The editor has claimed that checking the article history prior to making changes is too burdensome ["I'm not going to check every edit to see who originally wrote the text 2, 3, 5 years ago. Because I don't care. MaxBrowne (talk) 00:28, 11 September 2015 (UTC)"]. But I never suggested the editor do that. Even though, again, WP:IBAN doesn't exempt an editor on that basis. [Even though if in their shoes I'm sure *I* would check article history. Otherwise my expectation would be that I'd face an immediate block by an admin like Sjakkalle or Chillum who have shown partisanship when enforcning iBAN against me, even when what was enforced does not appear in WP:IBAN, and I carefully read WP:IBAN in order to be in good-faith compliance.] That is why I put sections up on article Talk, to draw notice that an edit was undone, so the editor could know, and facilitate them restoring it. But that didn't work. So I restored one of two edits which had been undone, drawing attention in editsum that the editor's undo was contrary to iBAN. That resulted in the user opening the previous ANI with complaint I violated iBAN. JyZ/Guy closed it as "no violation". Then the editor undid a third edit of mine at the same article, I put a notice on Talk again, and restored my edit, again explaining via editsum that I was restoring an edit of mine that had been overlaid contrary to iBAN. The editor reverted my restore, telling me in editsum to "get lost". I consulted admin JyZ/Guy about it, and without warning or clear purpose, they opened this awful ANI.) IHTS (talk) 09:59, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Even though the editor has clearly violated iBAN three times by undoing three of my edits, including reverting me when I subsequently restored one (Jyt/Guy's opening of this ANI), I disagree w/ John Carter that the editor should be blocked. (Blocking is supposed to be preventative, not punative.) Instead, the editor should simply be instructed where they fail to understand what can and can't be done re WP:IBAN. And the editor s/ be instructed to not interfere if I post to Talk about an edit they overlaid, and I subsequently restore it. (No plan like that is supported by WP:IBAN, I am suggesting to make easier so the editor needn't check article history, and needn't restore the overlaid edit themselves [even though they should; I know I would if in their shoes]. Have done this only when the overlay was either not an improvement, or was a disimprovement; again to make things easier. And as mentioned that is also something not provided for at WP:IBAN.) IHTS (talk) 10:27, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

"I'd face an immediate block by an admin like Sjakkalle or Chillum who have shown partisanship when enforcning(sic) iBAN against me"? Really? I blocked you exactly once after there was a clear community consensus to do so. Not only am I not "partisan" against you, I had to look up what you were talking about because I did not even remember you. Chillum 17:27, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
Bull, Chillum. You've shown extreme partisanship/favoritism. If you are that degree of self-unaware, you should resign your tools. IHTS (talk) 00:25, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
Diffs please? A bit of evidence would do wonders to improve my awareness and the awareness of others. It is hard for me to show partisanship/favoritism when I forgot who you even were. Perhaps you are not as big in my mind as you imagine yourself. Chillum 15:30, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
The discussion you want doesn't belong here, Chillum. And please believe, if I ever get a notion of self-"bigness", it'd never be gauged by anything whatever to do with the likes of you. (The simple fact is, if *I* were an admin, I'd be organized sufficiently to remember, or easiliy find, extensive dialogues I've had, with anybody, big or small would be irrelevant. [But that's just me.]) IHTS (talk) 03:06, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

The way forward[edit]

Let's address the central issue here. What may I or may I not do on an article that IHTS has edited in the past? My recent edits on the Evergreen Game article have been substantial and have been based on extensive research from available sources. With some more work, this article could become the authoritative source on this famous chess game. None of the edits I made were done with the intention of needling, annoying, or in any way interacting with IHTS. I don't think IHTS should be overly concerned about minor wording changes to text he wrote 2 or 3 years ago - that just looks petty to me. Nor do I think I should have to search the history of a page just in case I might be overwriting text he wrote 2 or 3 years ago. Can we come to an arrangement whereby I can continue to improve this article without worrying about this BS? Please? BTW if he could cite his Lasker source regarding 15...d2 I'd appreciate it - I can't find mention of that move in his Manual of Chess or Common Sense in Chess. MaxBrowne (talk) 11:21, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

It's weird collaborating w/ you at ANI, when you seek my head on a platter at every conceivable opportunity. But here goes ...

"15... Qf5? (Better 15... d2! 16. Nexd2 0-0 +/− Lasker.)" Harding, Tim; Botterill, G. S. (1977). The Italian Game. B.T. Batsford Ltd. p. 45. ISBN 0-7134-3261-6. 

(Where +/− is defined as "Clear advantage for White" at beginning of book. There is bibliography at beginning of book listing nine book and eight journal sources, but Lasker isn't listed as direct author of any of those [so I imagine the Lasker line is secondary source to one of those sources].) Please note it says "Better", not "Best", which mean differently of course. (So, "Best" currently in the article s/b changed to "Better". [My original paraphrased edit was: "Black does better with 15...d2! 16.Nexd2 0-0 according to Lasker, with a clear advantage for White." [1] [2], which was just fine of course.]) IHTS (talk) 01:30, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
OK I thought you meant you had a Lasker book where he recommends 15...d2. I think Lasker's recommendation was originally published in the London Chess Fortnightly in 1892 or 1893, I don't know which issue. Lipke refers to this in his article. There was a reissue of the London Chess Fortnightly in 2001 but I don't have it. MaxBrowne (talk) 05:12, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
Could be. It's not listed in Harding's bibliography, but what it says there is: "We also looked at numerous journals, of which the following are noteworthy: British Chess Magazine (BCM), Chess, Chess Life and Review, Chess Player 1-9, Fernschach, Informator 1-19, 64, Shakhmatny Bulletin, Shakhmaty v USSR." IHTS (talk) 07:07, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
How about this, you go ahead and edit as you please on that article. I will not go running to ANI over wording changes etc so long as editsums are civil. Call it an experiment. MaxBrowne (talk) 09:59, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
Damn, IHTS has gone and got himself blocked on an unrelated matter (unfairly in my opinion) so he can't respond to this yet... but if we can collaborate on this article without yelling at each other too much maybe we can look at getting the interaction ban lifted. I'm game to try it. MaxBrowne (talk) 16:18, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
The block was lifted. But I think your idea is great. Behaviorally, I think we both have good understanding on what the other doesn't like. Let's play fair. The iBAN can always be reinstated (I would assume or guess), without a lot of red tape, at your request. Happy editing. IHTS (talk) 03:14, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
To be clear, even though I'm sick of all the bullshit and drama, I am not yet comfortable with asking for the IBAN to be formally lifted. There are still a lot of festering sores. That's why I referred to this as an "experiment", a first step in that direction. You obviously care about the article too, so let's see if we can't collaborate on it. MaxBrowne (talk) 01:37, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
You seem to want full iBAN with exception that one article. Or creating whatever other gray area - confusing. You've also proposed lifting iBAN. (Which I agreed.) I don't think iBAN is as malleable as you want it to be. I think either the iBAN is there, or it isn't. I can agree with you to lift, but how can I agree to a modification I'm not authorized to, even if I did understand it? IHTS (talk) 10:39, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
No change of mind, just a clarification. Call it a suspension if you want. This is already a big shift for me, just a few days ago I was saying no way do I want it lifted. Certainly I'll be quick to ask for reinstatement if things get uncivil. Besides, technical breaches are only disruptive if someone complains, which I've said I won't. MaxBrowne (talk) 12:12, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
Again, it seems you want some sort of gray area. (I don't know any WP definition for "suspension" re iBAN. If that involves removing it, then acc. J Carter an AN thread is needed.) IHTS (talk) 17:15, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
If you'll forgive me for saying it I couldn't give a shit what John Carter has to say about anything - very nasty and aggressive editor, prefer you don't mention that name. We don't have to be slaves to process and precedent. How about we find an uninvolved admin we can both respect to facilitate this? I suggest Callanecc. MaxBrowne (talk) 06:24, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Again, I have no idea what "this" means. I think either the iBAN is there, or it isn't. IHTS (talk) 07:21, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
How much analysis of Anderssen-Dufresne is there in Harding & Botterill? Do they go into 19.Be4, 19...Rg4 etc? Any mention of Lipke, Neishtadt, Zaitsev? Harding is usually very thorough with his research before he puts anything in print. MaxBrowne (talk) 08:54, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
No not much, just what's quoted above, plus

"17.Nf6+!? (Simpler is 17.Ng3! Qh6 18.Nf5 +/−.)"


"19.Qxf3 (19... Rg4! would still leave the issue in doubt.)"


"I. Zaitsev, in 64 No's 5 and 6 1976, is the latest master to analyse this game in depth."


"10.Rd1 Nge7 11.Bxd3 Qh5 12.Nbd2 0-0 13.Re1 d5 14.Nf1 Bb6 15.Ng3, with a strong attack for the pawn, Adler–Sonkin, Ukraine 1966."

IHTS (talk) 05:58, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Also note (instead of 10...Nge7), "10... Bb6 11.Qd1! +/− Anderssen–Dufresne, Berlin 1858" (Unzicker). Matanović 1981 (ECO Vol C), p. 250, n. 44. IHTS (talk) 06:26, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
This was the history of the article immediately prior to MaxBrowne's (MB) 28 Aug 2015 indirect reverting of IHTS; the history clearly shows only two intervening, non-content changes by involved editors since both MB and IHTS's December 2013 editing. The WP:IBAN was placed at MB's request and its terms are clear. It's his responsibility to follow the terms and perform due diligence prior to editing: the state of Evergreen Game was such that any edits MB or ITHS to the article were likely to change some prior text the other had inserted.
MB says the ITHS concern about IBAN violation "looks petty to me" and then attempts to use alleged content improvement as a basis for ignoring their violation. The very nature of IBAN is pettiness; there are 125,620 active users and the overwhelming majority of them manage to edit without requiring the community to supervise their interaction.
As JzG / Guy states above, we need to either enforce the IBAN or trash it, as it's clearly not achieving the desired goal of ceasing chronic complaints about each others behavior from disrupting the community.
Note: Not that anyone should care, but it took me roughly 60 seconds to find the diffs showing the violation; article history -> diff first MB edit in August, find nature of change, use WP:BLAME tool to find insertion -- actually works reliably, not being hosted on WMFs tool labs -- done. NE Ent 12:24, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
Your involvement is also unhelpful. You tried to prevent the imposition of the IBAN from the beginning, and any time I have complained about a violation you have muddied the waters - I can provide diffs if required. I am trying to come to a resolution here and your involvement is not helping. Please stand back. MaxBrowne (talk) 12:43, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
This entire subthread is not only unhelpful, but pointless. If you want to change the nature or terms of the i-ban, you are of course free to do so. That would be reasonable and I believe allowed by policies and guidelines. Simply saying that that the existing i-ban, something that the editor making this complaint requested, seems to me inherently problematic, as no alternative is proposed. It also can not unreasonably be seen as perhaps an attempt to use the i-ban to personal advantage. If you don't want the i-ban in place, please request that. If you want to change the terms of the i-ban, please request that. But, frankly, this subthread comes across as, basically, useless. John Carter (talk) 20:46, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Prior to this ANI, the editor had undone three of my edits. In all three cases I documented my original text at article Talk, to facilitate the editor to restore them, but this was ignored. So I restored my contents, with editsum indicating why re iBAN. In the first instance there was no conflict, in the second instance the editor opened an ANI on the basis of iBAN violation, admin JzG closed it as "no violation". In the third instance the editor reverted my restore, telling me to "go to ANI or get lost". I went to the closing admin JzG instead, who opened this ANI. (The content of the third edit has not been re-restored yet, even though I've explained twice in this ANI why the undo by the editor was a disimprovement.) Today, a fourth of my edits has been undone by the editor, at a different article. Again, I'm sure the undo wasn't intentional. (The editor has refused to ever check edit histories claiming it is too burdonsome to do so. I can understand that. That is why I have in each case updated article Talk as mentioned.) So I've updated article Talk again [3], expecting the editor to notice and restore my content. So far he has never done so in any of the four undos. What I want (to minimize people-involvement such as asking an admin to restore the edits each time this happens, or opening an ANI on these inadvertent undos), is the freedom to do as I've done in the first three undos - which is to restore the contents myself, with appropriate editsum indicating the iBAN. (So far I have not been able to do that - once it resulted in the editor opening the previous ANI, once it resulted in his revert & the nasty editsum.) OK, so what does consensus want to do as way forward? The third and fourth undos are so far unrestored, and a method for future is also unaddressed. I've no desire to be held accountable for iBAN violations, so can there be some direction given or approved? Thx for consideration. IHTS (talk) 06:33, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Re today's new undo, the editor has updated Talk, clearly justifying his undo on the basis that my add was unsourced. (First, iBAN does not say "Editors may not undo one another's edits, unless they are unsourced." Second, sourcing isn't generally required unless the content is challenged or likely to be challenged. [At the time I made the add, neither was the case.] Third, there is a source. [I could add it, and add the content back, but, the content s/ have never been removed per iBAN, a request for source could have been made to Talk instead.]) The editor seems emboldened to ignore iBAN at every step, even when acquainted with the facts of violating iBAN. Four times now. IHTS (talk) 08:01, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Complaint concerning the conduct of admin Guy/Jzg[edit]

Not sure if this is the best place to do it, but Arbcom is probably a bit extreme. I believe that admin Guy has handled an ANI dispute very badly. It is inappropriate for any admin to take a "schoolmaster", "you're behaving like kids" approach towards a dispute. This is not helpful to anyone, does nothing to resolve the dispute and is insulting to both parties. No admin should behave like this, however trivial the dispute may appear to him or her.

Please consider this thread. I complained about a very clear interaction ban violation by another editor, who reverted my edit and addressed me in his edit summary. He responded by accusing me of same, in that I inadvertently overwrote text which he had written some time earlier (although as even he acknowledges I was acting in good faith and not intentionally edit warring). Rather than addressing the issue of whether my edits to the article in question were in fact IBAN violations, JzG initially proposed that both parties be banned from editing the article, then just closed the thread and told us to "stop bickering", leaving the central issue unresolved. I was hardly "bickering" since my only post in that thread was to raise it in the first place. I wanted to nip the issue in the bud, not have it keep coming back. I raised my concerns with Guy on his talk page and was told "a plague on both your houses." I don't believe I did anything to deserve a "plague on my house".

When the editor continued on this train, I did something I shouldn't have done and have apologised for - I reverted his edit and told him to take it to ANI or get lost. I should have opened another ANI myself, but after my previous experience I didn't have much confidence in the process. After a bit of admin shopping by the other party, JzG opened another ANI, and opened it with an uncivil personal attack. He has continued in this vain.

I seriously question this admin's competence, and ask other admins to please review this situation. Thank you. MaxBrowne (talk) 09:41, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

So now you are doubling down? And that's supposed to demonstrate that IHTS is the sole source of the problem? Let me know how that works out for you, I'm on a plane for the next ten hours or so. Guy (Help!) 09:53, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
No, I'm complaining about your handling of the dispute which was highly combative and insulting from the beginning. This is not how admins are supposed to deal with things. MaxBrowne (talk) 09:56, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
I was not involved in the original discussions; my advice would be for everyone to just drop it and move on. Nobody has covered themselves in glory there, and if this keeps getting dug up, sooner or later someone is going to get hit with a boomerang. Lankiveil (speak to me) 10:34, 19 September 2015 (UTC).
Lanikiveil, I appreciate that you want to calm things down but I have raised a concern and I want it to be addressed before I "move on". There are right ways and wrong ways for an admin to approach an ANI dispute, and I don't think the schoolmaster "stop acting like kids" approach is the right way. MaxBrowne (talk) 11:01, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
Allow me to say that I am becoming increasingly concerned regarding the extremely tendentious nature of MaxBrowne's conduct, and am coming to the conclusion that a much longer block for his violation of the terms of an i-ban is not apparently the only problem. Max has started a subsection above, indicating that he thinks the "way forward" is to apparently do something other than adhere to the i-ban he has been placed under, and now he is seeking to blame others for having the guts to call him out for his own extremely combative behavior. At this point, I'm thinking a one-week block of MaxBrowne for both the i-ban and his tendentious efforts to try to do everything but address the nature of the misconduct which started the discussion regarding him here might be the minimum called for under the circumstances. John Carter (talk) 14:28, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
I saw some positives in IHTS's post and was hoping we could come to some arrangement. This prompted my "way forward" section. please AGF. MaxBrowne (talk) 15:10, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
The arrangement is for you to cease wikilawyering and actually abide by the existing sanctions. You, however, seem to be perhaps incapable of understanding that, and, honestly, I have a great deal of trouble in seeing how that would do anything but perhaps strengthen existing concerns regarding your conduct, and, potentially, the length of sanctions to be imposed, considering you seem to not adequately understand the main concern here, which is a rather obvious violation of an i-ban. John Carter (talk) 15:49, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
I am glad you are not an admin anymore. From WP:PUNISH: "Some editors, even some administrators on Wikipedia forget why we are here and begin to adopt a punitive model for Wikipedia politics. They support blocks, bans, and enforcement of Arbitration Committee sanctions in order to exact retribution on "bad users" rather than helping to create and improve encyclopedic content. This is regrettable and problematic, not to mention contrary to the reason for blocks, bans, and enforcements as stated in the Wikipedia guidelines and policies linked in the previous sentence. When proposing or supporting an action that could easily be interpreted to be punishment, ask yourself, "Will this action help make the content on Wikipedia better?" If the answer is not an unequivocal "yes" and you still end up supporting the action, you may be an adherent to the punitive model of Wikipedia. This may also mean you enjoy the perceived "power" that you get from enforcing your will through the various features (or bugs) of the Wikipedia community." MaxBrowne (talk) 07:25, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
I think all of this is a clear case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT on your part. You should be thanking JzG for being so lenient, because he would have been justified in blocking you for violating the IBAN, instead he's let you off with a stern warning not to do it again. I urge you to consider that you're digging yourself deeper into a hole before you continue your campaign, as every post you make is making it less likely you'll get what you want. Lankiveil (speak to me) 10:45, 20 September 2015 (UTC).
Agreed. You have repeatedly done everything in your power to, basically, all but say you have done nothing wrong, and on that basis alone there is every reason to believe that you will have no reservations about doing the same thing again. That being the case, under the circumstances, a block is entirely reasonable, because there is every evidence from your own comments that you see nothing wrong with how you violated the i-ban and seemingly have no reservations about doing the same thing again. Under the circumstances, honestly, the only conclusion I can draw from your ongoing posts is that the block lengths that had been previously considered might not, given the nature of your subsequent posts, be long enough for the kind of WP:IDHT behavior you have displayed. John Carter (talk) 18:13, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
MaxBrowne, you must disengage here if you want to avoid getting blocked. IBANs are usually interpreted in a very strict manner and they are typically broadly construed. Getting into a ping-pong revert match at Evergreen game over a very minor matter is an example of what the IBAN is designed to avoid. Making a comment regarding IHTS on an unrelated matter here, even if your comment is in IHTS's favor, is also a violation of the IBAN. You should not have gotten involved with an AN/EW thread regarding IHTS and that has nothing to do with you. Sjakkalle (Check!) 18:16, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
Hi Sjakkalle good to see you here. I guess my post there is a kind of signal that I'm willing to consider lifting the IBAN if we can avoid the kind of nastiness that led to it in the first place. I indicated the same in the "way forward" subthread. A positive move for the encyclopedia if it can happen, yes? MaxBrowne (talk) 18:33, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
Where on earth did you get the idea that the i-ban exists only on the basis of your own support of it? An i-ban is two-way, and, despite your repeated comments here, I get a very strong impression the person who has ignored it most is you. Of course you support removing any sanctions that could get you blocked, any idiot would. But the sanctions were placed by an administrator, not by you, and it truly amazes me that you are still incapable of seeing that, and that repeated failure to do so raises reasonable WP:CIR concerns. John Carter (talk) 18:43, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
John C, I appreciate your clear eye on things, but my impression of the iBAN discussion is that is was mostly to accord Max what he wanted very much. (I didn't agree with that process, but that is water over the dam.) The fact is I'm happy Max sees now how the iBAN is problematical to both of our editing work, and, in fact iBAN is itself full of a lot of holes [shabbily defined, not a lot of history with enforcement issues], and who wants to spend time "creating new legislation" when a more desirable result is to put it in a drawer, if possible, and that seems to be possible for the first time, so I'm happy 'bout that.) Thx for your attention & consideration. IHTS (talk) 03:31, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
If there is a reason to believe the i-ban should be lifted, it would, of course, be reasonable to discuss that, probably in a separate section. However, I as an individual can say that the conduct of the other party involved here in no way inspires me with any confidence regarding his own ability to edit collaboratively with others. Also, it would be very useful if the two of you indicated that there would be some other means the two of you would take, other than the behavior which evidently led to the existing i-ban, which would help resolve the issues that led to the discussion here. However, to be blunt, I believe the behavior of at least one editor here might be such that others might still question whether it would be in the project's best interests to withdraw sanctions. Also, personally, I think it might be best to start that discussion at WP:AN, where the existing i-ban was imposed. John Carter (talk) 19:12, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
I think the reason is, that both editors would like it lifted. To edit freely. As mentioned to Max, I think we each know by now, without getting explicit, what the other doesn't tolerate. (For me, am willing to discuss more explicitly if necessary, and I assume he is too, but is it?) If protocol is to start AN thread requesting lift, perhaps most convincing is if he initiated it, for obvious reason. (I of course would immediately become joint to that request.) IHTS (talk) 22:33, 21 September 2015 (UTC) The other editor has apparently changed their mind. IHTS (talk) 10:43, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
Sorry to come late to the party. Guy's behaviour is indefensible. See the complaints at [4]. Guy protected the page so Jimbo couldn't rule on the complaint against him. Ihardlythinkso, if you study the diff you will see that Guy works in collaboration with Future Perfect at Sunset. Why not add him to the complaint and kill two birds with one stone? (talk) 12:04, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
The complainant (thread OP) is another user, not me. IHTS (talk) 17:04, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
That's pretty funny. You quoted a series of comments by CyclePat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log), who subsequently struck them and changed form oppose to support on my RFA, which was nearly ten years ago! Guy (Help!) 21:11, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
FWIW, I obviously myself see sufficient basis for some sort of administrative involvement, but I ain't an admin and so can't do anything in that regard myself. Yep, I talk a good fight but thankfully I don't have to actually make any of these calls myself. ;) I don't have the guts, basically. Anyone want to do something here, or should we start yet another separate subsection or more to discuss the various sanction options? John Carter (talk) 17:21, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
  • The material cited by User: above was removed as being from an IP sockpuppet of banned User:Vote (X) for Change when User: posted it.[5] Both IPs geolocate to London, UK, using the same ISP. For some reason I am suddenly in the mood for some roast duck with a nice CheckUser sauce to smoke out any stealth accounts. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:17, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
  • John Carter asked me to weigh in. There's been some discussion on my talk page and I had good hope that we could get rid of the iBan. I don't know what to do here. As far as I'm concerned, we lift the iBan completely, and then no one will have to worry about whether this or that edit or revert (they're making those anyway) is a violation of the ban or not. Just get rid of the ban and take it from there, dealing with possible disruption in the usual way. Drmies (talk) 02:29, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
  • BTW, I have a long history of disagreeing with IHTS, but I gotta say, he's on his best behavior here. His opponent, not so much--those who called for a block (I think I've seen two or three calls from different people for a block) may have had a point. Drmies (talk) 02:36, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
You do understand why I'm concerned about lifting the IBAN, right? Have only to examine the original AN thread to understand this, I was genuinely distressed and more than a little creeped out. I guess someone could propose it at a new AN thread but I wouldn't be happy about it. To clarify, are you in favour of a punitive block now, after a week? MaxBrowne (talk) 04:50, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
Actually, no, I don't really understand. And to clarify, I said, I believe, "may have had". I don't know about this "week": I think there was some displeasure with your comments in this very thread. Drmies (talk) 17:04, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
Please review the original thread. Note that serious consideration was given to making the IBAN one way. The whole thing was very upsetting and is still quite raw for me. It should be patently obvious why I don't want the IBAN lifted. MaxBrowne (talk) 23:54, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
There very definitely has been some displeasure with MaxBrowne's conduct in this very thread. John Carter (talk) 23:19, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
And with yours. You have been uncivil throughout. MaxBrowne (talk) 23:58, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
Max, I am amazed at your inability to grasp the fairly obvious fact that it is in fact your incivility which precipitated this conversation, your incivility during the conversation which has caused others to question your self-awareness, your incivility in arbitrarily and unilaterally attempting to close a proposed option below, your dubious grasp of procedures and civility in starting this subthread, your rather obvious arrogance in attempting to apparently unilaterally dictate the outcome of this discussion in the subthread immediately above this one, and, in short, your dubious conduct and dubious civility throughout which is the primary matter of concern here. I will acknowledge that it is hard to effectively describe your conduct without using terms which are perhaps less than optimal, but if you want to blame anyone for the criticism you have received here, it is most reasonable to blame yourself, for being the proximate cause of that criticism having to be made John Carter (talk) 18:49, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Speaking of arrogance, please stop attempting to speak for the entire internet. You have been by far the most strident and aggressive person in this ANI, replying to almost every conversation with yet another personal attack and derailing any attempts I have made to dialogue with other editors. There was no need whatsoever for you to chime in here for example; Drmies was talking to me, not to you. Likewise there was no need for this particularly nasty personal attack while I was attempting to talk to Sjakkalle. Please go bark at someone else. MaxBrowne (talk) 00:31, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
You are the best person to speak about arrogance here, of course, considering you have displayed the pretty much unheard-of arrogance to temporarily collapse one of NE Ent's proposals below as being other than a serious proposal. You still do not seem to understand that it is your behavior at issue here, and, in fact, by the above post, pretty much continue to display the same issues that have been remarked upon repeatedly by multiple others. John Carter (talk) 00:52, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
"....have been remarked upon repeatedly by multiple others John Carter." There, fixed it for you. The difference is that the "multiple others" you refer to have spoken in a reasonable manner instead of injecting themselves into every conversation and attacking me every step of the way. You know, as in WP:AGF, WP:CIV, WP:NPA. Remember those? And I don't see any "except at ANI" clause in any of these policies. MaxBrowne (talk) 01:48, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
And those multiple others who have spoken civilly clearly excludes yourself, whose own conduct has been as I say below in the newly added proposal both inexcusable and, to the best of my knowledge, maybe in some ways, so far as I can remember, the worst I have ever seen at an AN thread. John Carter (talk) 15:29, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Let's review some comments from this thread (please see above)

  • "I think all of this is a clear case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT on your part." Lankiveil
  • "MaxBrowne, you must disengage here if you want to avoid getting blocked." Sjakkalle
  • "So now you are doubling down? And that's supposed to demonstrate that IHTS is the sole source of the problem? Let me know how that works out for you" Guy/JzG
  • "The WP:IBAN was placed at MB's request and its terms are clear. It's his responsibility to follow the terms" Me. NE Ent 02:06, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
You can see that this is a problem though? One particularly aggressive editor has repeatedly interjected with his personal attacks over the more moderate language of other editors, basically sabotaging any efforts towards an amicable resolution. MaxBrowne (talk) 04:11, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
The difficulty seems to lie in your own refusal to acknowledge that your own conduct, including both that which prompted this thread and in this thread itself, is worse. The most significant problem, so far as I can see, is what seems to be your inability ro recognize that your opinions are not, and should not be, absolute laws. And once again you overlook not only your own refusal to speak in a reasonable manner, but your, to my eyes, unprecedented arrogance in preemptively hatting one of NE Ent's proposals before. Once again, the problem seems to be regarding your conduct, and your apparent inability or refusal to recognize that it might be problematic. Concerns regarding that have been expressed repeatedly. John Carter (talk) 14:32, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Proposal (lift iBan)[edit]

iban between Ihardlythinkso and MaxBrowne is removed.

  • Support as proposer. NE Ent 23:15, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

* Absolutely not. Anyone who reviews the original thread will understand why I requested the IBAN and why I don't want it lifted. MaxBrowne (talk) 23:51, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

  • Support. The editor has repeatedly contradicted themself both re the edit undo proviso of iBAN, and the other aspect including making personal derogatory comments re the other editor (i.e., me). (If I need to go into detail with diffs to prove said points, I'm able to do that. [I've done much of it already here and at admins' user Talks.]) The iBAN s/b enforced, or lifted. (My preference is that it be lifted, so both editors can edit freely. I believe I have more basis for concern than the other editor of being on receiving end of uncivil comments in the absence of iBAN, since that has been what has been happening; however, editing in freedom is more important, and, the uncivil comments at Talks and in ANI threads have never been enforced by admins, the iBAN has been ignored on that level as well, so what good does it represent me?) IHTS (talk) 08:07, 30 September 2015 (UTC) And ditto Drmies below, thanks to NE Ent, for this proposal. IHTS (talk) 10:42, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Weak oppose. Actually, I just recently looked and it seems that all sanctions of this sort can be taken to WP:AE, even those which are community imposed rather than ArbCom imposed. In general, people get better or at least quicker responses there. John Carter (talk) 20:33, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
  • I'd prefer an alternative, such as making certain articles (and associated talk pages) exception, if possible. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 04:32, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
    What articles are you referring, and why? (The only issues at Evergreen Game and Wayward Queen Attack are edit undos while under iBAN, and aren't based on any content dispute [at least none I'm aware of]. Are you suggesting to retain iBAN on articles where it hasn't worked or been enforced, for which this ANI was presumably opened?!) IHTS (talk) 05:13, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
  • More like, for the Chess example above, the IBAN does not help (as you said not all of the edits there would be considered dis-improvement). So not exactly what you suggested, but I hope my point is made. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 08:11, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm still not understanding. (Of four undos, two were disimprovements, the other two were equal-quality copyedits [neither improvements nor disimprovements], but still forbade by iBAN.) IHTS (talk) 09:25, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. If MaxBrowne is unwilling to adhere to the letter and spirit of an iBAN that only he wants, then let's get rid of it. Keeping it in place is only causing more drama. Other ways to minimize drama between these two editors (e.g. subjecting both to a one-revert rule with respect to each other's edits) should be considered. Cobblet (talk) 21:35, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
    There has never been any edit-war episode between Max and me (if memory serves) at any article. The only reverts have been over inadvertently undone edits in relation to iBAN, which forbids undoing one another's edits. Although two of the undos were content disimprovements, none of the the reverts were related in any fashion to any sort of content dispute(s) (at least none I'm aware of). (My impression is that Max was simply upset about being reverted on basis of iBAN - that he felt reversion on that basis was unacceptable interference to his article improvement efforts.) IHTS (talk) 23:16, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Noted; this thread's title does say "lame edit war", but you didn't write that. Cobblet (talk) 03:05, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Exactly. IHTS (talk) 11:05, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Let's look at this. IHTS claims (naturally I disagree) that he has more reason than I do to worry about the consequences of removing the IBAN in terms of incivility from the other etc. Well in that case, let him put his money where his mouth is; he should have no problem with the following suggestion. Naturally any conditions would be worded so as to apply equally to both parties:
  • strict interpretation of WP:CIV and WP:NPA, with a minimum two week block and possible re-imposition of IBAN for any breeches, including but not limited to:
  • personal attacks
  • snide or aggressive comments (e.g. in edit summaries)
  • any kind of harassment or bullying
  • repeated references to past grievances (i.e. failure to drop the WP:STICK)
  • recommendation that the two editors avoid unnecessarily mentioning each other, refrain from personal remarks of any nature and avoid each other in general
  • strong warning against any form of wikilawyering or gaming the system MaxBrowne (talk) 00:25, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry, I can't agree with this. It'll be up to admins to impose the penalty for violation of such sanctions, if they are agreed upon, and I don't want that kind of precision because it will lead to...well, look up at where this thread started. Both of you need to adhere to the normal guidelines, the ones I and everyone else have to live by. It is entirely possible that admins will look upon this or that snarky remark with less leniency because it's you (whichever one I'm talking to right now), but drawing up a list of qualifications is not the way to go. Also, someone making a personal attack would lead to a reinstatement of the iBan? Isn't that asymmetrical warfare? Sorry MaxBrowne, but no. Drmies (talk) 01:01, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Assurances? Two things. a. admins will enforce "civility" or whatever passes for it. b. What assurance do we have that you (singular and plural) won't continue this eteeeeernal wikilawyering if the iBan stays in place? Clearly IHTS was some kind of butt-hurt during those two weeks a year and a half ago and yeah, sure, he shouldn't have been talking about you so much (if I didn't know any better I'd call it cute in a high-school sort of way), but by the same token, isn't all of it on his talk page? What do you care what he does on his talk page? And that you keep an archive of bad diffs, isn't that telling as well? How long do you want to nurse this? At least on the part of IHTS I see something that suggests he's working to get past this. Drmies (talk) 01:53, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
The "archive" was copied from the original AN thread and has not been saved by me. Suggest striking that. MaxBrowne (talk) 02:03, 2 October 2015 (UTC) Appreciate the trivialization and insults to both parties too, btw. MaxBrowne (talk) 18:25, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Max, you s/ distinguish between my objections re admins (specifically The Bushranger, DangerousPanda, and [indirectly] Ched) picking up/keying off your "classic narcissist" epithet against me, versus your use against me, since therein I make a huge distinction. (I.e. admins are expected to demo conduct of a higher standard, re WP:ADMINACCT.) IHTS (talk) 06:22, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
IHTS has greatly reduced his editing of chess articles – that is assurance enough. It's time to move on. I think both IHTS and you are tired of this charade, although it is entirely understandable that neither of you feel like you can afford to admit that to the other. Cobblet (talk) 03:05, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Not aware of anything I resist "admitting to", can you clarify what charade, thx. (If you mean the iBAN, I never thought it was a good idea, but had no control over it being imposed.) IHTS (talk) 06:07, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────And once again, an ANI is being used by the other editor under iBAN, as coatrack for throwing mud (e.g. laundry list of diffs to "evidence" bad or uncivil behavior against them). (Do I get equal time? I didn't ask to go there, nor did/do I have desire to. But the hypocrisy is deafening. Am I being baited to prove why, so this ANI can be reduced to a cat-fight, with fingers pointed at the baited cat, to say "I told you so!"?! And this scenario hasn't been played out over-and-over?! And I'm accused of not dropping sticks?!) There is no WP venue anymore for ongoing WP:ETIQUETTE issue. But I'm not averse to opening a post-WP:ETIQUETTE thread with supervision by a third party, until Max is satisfied (though I presume, that would be never, based on the circularity). It seems to me the other editor is taking or getting in all the swipes they can on my character, at very public ANI. (Again. Same thing in previous ANIs.) Am I supposed to like or enjoy that? IHTS (talk) 09:06, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

No, not doing that at all.... I'm talking more about me than about you. About my misgivings re lifting the IBAN. And you're in the best position to answer them. How do I know all this crap won't happen again? MaxBrowne (talk) 10:10, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Again, the "crap" flowed way more from you to me. Please stop the baiting. IHTS (talk) 05:17, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
In the weeks leading up to the IBAN you were attacking me on a daily basis in threads that I wasn't even involved in, as evidenced by the diffs I gave; this is a matter of record. I need to know that this is not going to resume if the IBAN is lifted. MaxBrowne (talk) 08:41, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
More circular baiting. More hypocritical standard. I asked if you would please stop it. ¶ In the days leading up to the IBAN you levied the following unwarranted personal attacks; this is a matter of record: "This is classic narcissist / Diva behaviour. MaxBrowne (talk) 01:21, 31 March 2014 (UTC)" ""Classic narcissist behaviour" was my interpretation of your actions, based on a number of factors, including but not limited to (1) your hypersensitivity to criticism (2) your extreme hostility and argumentativeness over the most petty disputes (3) your flattery towards those who affirm or defend you (4) your absolute inability to see yourself as others see you. I've come across this sort of behaviour frequently on the net and I can recognise it when I see it. MaxBrowne (talk) 04:59, 2 April 2014 (UTC)" "Here's the thing. If someone were to accuse me of having sex with sheep, that wouldn't bother me in the slightest, since I know I have no zoophilic tendencies whatsoever. It's so far from the truth that it's laughable. This is the effect that the majority of your insults have on me. On the other hand, if someone were to call me a loser who spends way too much time on the computer, that would carry a lot more sting, because it's much closer to the truth. If "narcissist" and "diva" carry a sting for you, that suggests to me that they're somewhere in the vicinity of the truth. If I'm totally wrong about this, maybe you could do something to correct that mis-impression? Believe me, I would love to be proved wrong. MaxBrowne (talk) 02:03, 3 April 2014 (UTC)" ¶ You were not blocked for this (*I* was, for making a baited response!) or even warned. So what kind of assurance do I have this behavior is not going to resume? The answer is none. No editor s/ have to face that kind of personal abuse--your link to Narcissism describes as a diagnosable personality disorder--especially from three admins who decided to pick up your epithet and throw again. But that is clearly the indisputable nature of the current lawless and stoneage WP all editor volunteers are subject to. IHTS (talk) 10:25, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
The right way to do this is to link to the original thread, not to cut and paste one person in pretty green colours. It's kind of understandable that you don't want your own behaviour in that thread to come under too much scrutiny, though. MaxBrowne (talk) 00:01, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Both assertion and assumption are wrong. But anything to smuggle more insult, right? IHTS (talk) 02:27, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • I support Ent's proposal and thank him for it. Drmies (talk) 01:01, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose lifting the IBAN. I realize that consensus is against me on this and it's probably going to happen, but I see no sign that IHTS is willing to modify his approach, and I'm a little fearful of what will happen once he's off the leash. MaxBrowne (talk) 02:36, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
    "leash: A restraining chain, rope, or strap attached to the collar or harness of an animal." (The American Heritage Dictionary, 5th ed., 2012). Go soak your head?! IHTS (talk) 09:20, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Proposal (Nash Equilibrium iBan)[edit]

The existing iBan is replaced with a Nash Equilibrium ban such that:

  • If either editor complains about the other anywhere on Wikipedia, both will be blocked for a day, with each subsequent violation to follow a Fibonacci sequence. (The sequence has the nice property that the first values are low, but it grows rapidly in case the pair doesn't get the hint.) As this is a "no fault" ban, it should no require long ANI threads / discussions to enforce. NE Ent 23:15, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose I honestly cannot imagine any situation in which we have said that someone is blocked because of the actions of someone with whom they are or have been in conflict. John Carter (talk) 23:18, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
Actually I'm quite serious (reviewers please see [15] and [16]). NE Ent 01:27, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Rather obvious oppose. The proposal violates two basic, if not codified principles that are essential to make the blocking policy come off as fair. First, legitimate complaints should not result in sanctions being imposed on the complainant as we want users to report actual cases of misconduct. Second, blocks should only be done for actions that the blockee had some control over; being blocked bacause of an edit someone else did is a capricious way of enforcing things. Sjakkalle (Check!) 15:43, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Doesn't every iBan prevent editors from reporting some instances of misconduct? If you think about it, this just an iBan with easy to enforce consequences, as opposed to the current sort of, mayb, iBan currently in place. NE Ent 21:57, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Proposal: topic ban one, DS/final warning on the other[edit]

I propose:

  • 1) The existing i-ban remains in place;
  • 2) User:MaxBrowne is topic banned from all content related to chess, broadly construed, for three months
  • 3) User:Ihardlythinkso is subject to discretionary sanctions for a concurrent period in roughly the same area
  • Note: Both of the above are of course subject to it being the case that the problematic interactions of these two is limited to the broad subject area of chess, which seems to be the case from what I have seen before, but for all the words spoken by MaxBrowne in particular there hasn't been much to directly indicate that
  • 4) Any concerns regarding the conduct of either editor under the provisions above to be taken to WP:AE.
  • So far as I can tell, the statements at the AE page permit concerns about sanctions imposed by both ArbCom and by the community to be discussed there, and may be seen as indicating such is how such matters should be done, and it generally gets quicker results anyway.
  • This seems to me a more acceptable option than the one NE Ent proposed above, as it doesn't necessarily sanction both individuals for the misconduct of only one of them. Max is being proposed to be subject to the stronger sanctions on the basis that it was MaxBrowne's unacceptable behavior that prompted this thread, the grossly combative and dare I say self-righteous nature of many of his comments and actions, including in particular his action here in basically unilaterally hatting the proposal immediately above. To the best of my knowledge, I have never seen such a transparent display of blind arrogance at one of the noticeboards.
  • The arrogance Max has displayed, regularly, is to my eyes completely inexcusable and unsupportable. It is to be hoped that if this proposal is approved, Max will make some effort to become more familiar with procedures and conduct guidelines here. However, it is also possible that, based on what has been said, the other individual may take advantage of Max's topic ban if countermeasures are not in place. On that basis, the discretionary sanctions are proposed. I am going to assume, possibly incorrectly, that the first misstep by Ihardlythinkso may well be placing him under a topic ban for at least as long as Max's own. John Carter (talk) 14:43, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Excuse please, but what are you suggesting qualifies as "may take advantage of Max's topic ban"? (Restoring two of the four edit content undos that were contrary to iBAN?) I don't know what bad thing you are supposing that I might do, can you be specific so I can know? IHTS (talk) 20:03, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
  • I am not really myself presuming anything, other than the rather obvious distrust that Max has of you. I suppose it might be possible, however, for someone to go on a rampage of reversion, which I do not honestly think you would do, and, honestly, I don't expect any particular misconduct from you. It is pretty much just a generalized preventative measure, much like the i-ban itself. John Carter (talk) 23:29, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
  • OK, but I think you're misreading Max's "distrust". (It isn't re reversions, rather re incivility. [Which goes both ways of course.]) IHTS (talk) 00:07, 2 October 2015 (UTC)


I think we can conclude from the entirety of this ANI thread, and from the initially cited edit summary ("Go to ANI or get lost") and NE Ent's summation of this ANI thread, that while IHTS is not blameless, Max Browne is by far the aggressor here and that something has to be done to stop the aggression and endless disruption. I'm not sure than any of the multiple proposals currently listed above are going to resolve the issue. I'm posting this as an outside observer who has seen this drag on endlessly for over three weeks. I'd really like to see it resolved. Although people did not bold their !votes, there was definite consensus above to remove the IBan. That may the simplest way forward, with the exhortation to the two parties to remain civil and neutral and to avoid charged words and insults (and to discuss civilly on article-talk when a disagreement arises rather than arguing or reverting). Maybe we could try that, and then if it doesn't work, come back here with the view to a more stringent solution(s). Softlavender (talk) 06:31, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Agree on all points. (Except that, again, Max & I have never revert-warred re content, only re edits overlaid contrary to iBAN.) IHTS (talk) 10:54, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
If the IBan is lifted, I propose the two parties drop the past completely and start afresh, never referring to anything that occurred before this date. I think this is really the only way we can create a clean slate of civility and respect. The other editor's past behavior no longer exists and can no longer be referred to. All opinions going forward will solely be about content, and if the content in question already exists, do not refer to how it got there. Discuss content and policy, not other editors or their behavior. Softlavender (talk) 11:38, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Paco Arespacochaga and Aleck Bovick AFDs[edit]

I made a number of contentious AFDs (at least by the Wikipedia Tambayan Project (see [17])), the most important of which now are those of Paco Arespacochaga (see [18], [19], [20]) and Aleck Bovick (see [21], [22], [23]). ──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I was made aware of this largely by the efforts of User:Obsidian Soul and User:Jondel, at least when those efforts were positive and informative. As a result, I either withdrew the nomination, or if too late changed my own vote to keep in these two cases, a public acknowledgement of my failed vetting process. Is there anything wrong with either of those things? I even tried to improve the articles (both a tad threadbare) by adding text from sources both Tambayan editors assured me were reliable Philippines media sources. I don't know what has happened but I have since been subjected to verbal abuse and threats from @Obsidian Soul, accusing me of adding "potentially libelous" info and being POINTY by having changed my own votes (with detailed explanations for the record) because @Obsidian Soul claims I am afraid of "losing" the AFDs. I can say that, unfortunately, I have lost AFDs in the past by WP:SNOW and I made no attempt to either withdraw the ill-fated noms or change my votes. ──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── In other words, I realized that in certain of the AFDs recently nominated I was wrong -- yes I admit it. And I acted on my conscience, and did what I believed was appropriate. Now, I am threatened (with opening an AN/I) and accused by this seriously passive aggressive editor (@Obsidian Soul) for doing what he relentlessly told me I should have done from the beginning. I cannot control my "western bias" but I can try to make things right as best I can. I genuinely have no idea what @Obsidian Soul is going on about this time, but I am sick and tired of it. Quis separabit? 19:55, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

For the avoidance of doubt: verbal abuse? Are you claiming Off-wiki harassment? RichardOSmith (talk) 20:04, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
NO, no. Sorry, not "verbal". I am old (way pre-millenial) and did not use the right term. I meant what I consider verbally abusive wording in many but certainly the most recent (today) postings by @Obsidian Soul. Quis separabit? 20:07, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
verbal ≠ oral. common misconception. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:20, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Obsidian Soul notified. Your pings won't work that way. To ping an editor you need use this format {{ping|Obsidian Soul}}. Also, pings are not considered appropriate notification for AN/ANI. Blackmane (talk) 23:20, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
@Blackmane: I did notify @Obsidian Soul (see [24]). Sorry if I didn't do it right. Quis separabit? 23:24, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
It's unclear to me what kind of remedy you are seeking. Can you post diffs of these "threats"? Because telling an editor you are going to bring a dispute to a noticeboard is not a sanctionable offense.Liz Read! Talk! 23:26, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
I know that. What I want him to do is stop making inflammatory comments, accusing me of making "potentially libelous comments" that come straight from a reflink he recommended to me as a reliable Filipino media source and when I haven't done anything wrong and have no idea what he's talking about, and harassing me with his passive-aggressive nonsense. Not all communications have to be done at an AFD discussion. I have a talk page. And those diffs are at the top of this AN/I but there may be others I can scare up. Quis separabit? 23:31, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Apologies, I didn't notice that it was mixed in with the section above my notification. Blackmane (talk) 02:14, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Call a spade a spade. Your "improvements" to the articles on Bovick and Arespacochaga are potentially libelous and violate WP:BLP despite your oh-so-innocent protestations otherwise. And that is behavior actually worthy of an AN/I. Your edit summary of "very important biodata added" is a dig at how you think the WP:RS provided in the AfD discussions were not satisfactory because they're subjectively "gossip" to you. Whatever bullshit you think you can get away with in the talk pages (including your persistence in using inappropriate {{od}} templates on everything because I criticized your indenting practices in your last AN/I against me, and admins don't seem to mind), don't carry it over to the articles. Period. It's actually funny that you're the one claiming harassment. You've accused me of nefarious things how many times now? Three? In AN/I no less. If that isn't classic WP:POINTY behavior, I don't know what is. All because I had the nerve to tell you to do a WP:BEFORE in your nominations. Something several other editors have also told you to do. If admins can't see through that, it's not my problem. Believe me, I don't want to deal with you ever again either. But again, keep your vindictiveness in the talk pages. -- OBSIDIANSOUL 23:46, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Notice he refuses to address his accusation that I posted "potentially inflammatory text" from the url he referred me to. The indenting nonsense is his own paranoia. He told me on one occasion to fix my indenting. I did my best twice on a long confusing thread. He didn't like it and re-indented it himself. It's absurd.
"All because I had the nerve to tell you to do a WP:BEFORE in your nominations. Something several other editors have also told you to do. If admins can't see through that, it's not my problem" -- this is untrue. He repeats the same thing over and over. I have acknowledged making some AFD nominations that I shouldn't have -- whether because of sloppy research or what he calls "Western bias". Does he want me to wear a hairshirt or a sackcloth with ashes? Do penance? Should I debase (that's a euphemism) myself? I acknowledged his points (to the extent I agree with them, depending on the individual AFD nom) already and thanked him when his advice was constructive. I withdrew some noms and/or changed my votes. He refuses to acknowledge or accept or update anything or turn down the passive-aggressive relentlessness and yet I am vindictive. Quis separabit? 00:08, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
For starters, how about dropping the wide-eyed pretense of being the innocent victim? You know perfectly well what you're doing. Just like this can not ever be construed as "fixing" anything. And no. I'm definitely not avoiding it. I am accusing you of adding potentially libelous information to articles to illustrate a point. Why don't you explain how a paragraph on implied nepotism is a good thing? Or how someone's mother being a dancer ("in Cubao") with 18 children from three different men, who died "from blood loss [due to giving birth repeatedly]" is "very important biodata"?
Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages. -WP:BLP
-- OBSIDIANSOUL 00:42, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
For the hundredth time, the indenting problem you are obsessing about was not an attempt by me to gaslight you. I tried to fix it twice and gave up, and you fixed it. No one else complained. If I am misusing {{od}} then let someone (not you) tell me how so, because you are no longer credible on that point. Quis separabit? 00:54, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
You must have missed the point of my last post. So here. I'll repeat it: why don't you explain how a paragraph on implied nepotism is a good thing? Or how someone's mother being a dancer ("in Cubao") with 18 children from three different men, who died "from blood loss [due to giving birth repeatedly]" is "very important biodata"?-- OBSIDIANSOUL 01:04, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
I am very glad it was your mess up because when I was posting my lengthy response I hit an edit conflict so now things are not out of sequence, I hope. The quote regarding Arespacochaga:

"His father was a former vice president of a production company, Paco had easy access to famous persons in the local showbiz industry – such as the late Fernando Poe Jr, actor and currently Manila Mayor Joseph Estrada, and star-builder German Moreno, thus opening valuable doors for him to begin his career." [25]

came from the url @Obsidian Soul recommended to me from the website of the GMA Network and I don't or didn't think it indicates nepotism, any more than the fact that Alfred Hitchcock's daughter Patricia had roles in some of her father's films or that Liza Minnelli appeared on her mother's television show, or that Barry Van Dyke had a long-running gig on his father's Diagnosis: Murder. If this is something potentially libelous I would guess Paco Arespacochaga sued GMA when it was published in print. Oh, no, wait, he didn't. I guess Arespacochaga had no problem with but somehow @Obsidian Soul does. And I may as well add that @Obsidian Soul's edit summary deleting the info was "remove per WP:BLP. I think it's time to open an AN/I". So he is twistedly seeking reasons to harass me, using innocent quoted text.
As far as Bovick goes, it's the same thing. I wanted to spruce up a threadbare article. Yes I found the fact that her late mother bore 18 children (by 3 husbands) interesting, in fact fascinating, and her death from leukemia thus a multifold tragedy. The statement "from blood loss [due to giving birth repeatedly]" came from her own daughter, Bovick! What did you think, I made it up? I certainly wasn't posing it as a medical opinion, only her daughter's comments. I cast no aspersions on anyone (see [26]). Overreaction somehow by somebody?? Doesn't anyone see anything wrong here? If I made any mistakes in using reliably sourced biographical background material, I apologize. I don't think I did but .... Quis separabit? 01:17, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes. My link. And you wished to illustrate how those links might not be reliable, right? Gee whiz, that oughta show em! I gave it to demonstrate WP:GNG, not so you can pick the most sensationalist part and insert it into the articles. Have someone else explain WP:BLP to you. Because I'm not doing it. -- OBSIDIANSOUL 01:35, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
On the contrary,[[WP:POINTY| I was confident the links were/are reliable as I trusted you. You've accused me of POINTY about a hundred thousand times since we crossed paths. Your accuracy at tossing that dart hasn't improved despite the extensive practice you've had. Quis separabit? 02:23, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
They are reliable. I do not wish to interact with you further. If someone else disagrees with my reversion of your edits, or actually believes that you were acting in good faith, I wish to hear their opinion. Otherwise, this thread is as pointless as your earlier two accusations of stalking. I have much better things to do. -- OBSIDIANSOUL 02:46, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
OK, all of the arguments about content should stay on the article's talk page. As for the rest - apart from someone telling you two to leave each other the hell alone, what administrative remedy are you seeking here? What do you want us to do? UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 14:29, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
He should desist from communicating with me, making edit summary threats, launching endless POINTY accusations, especially at AFD discussions, and bring whatever issues he may have in future to an objective third party or admin. Quis separabit? 14:39, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Since Obsidian Soul says that she or he does not want to interact with Rms125a, and Rms125a doesn't seem to want to get communications from Obsidian Soul, that sounds to me like both editors would be glad to have an interaction ban between them. If both were to indicate their agreement here, it can be logged and this thread could be closed. BMK (talk) 15:05, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
So no one actually sees the problem with his edits, huh? Go figure. You really believe his little story about finding it fascinating that someone's mother has 18 children by 3 men and is hinted to be a sex worker, and that's why he labels it as "very important biodata"? Or the fact that he picked the one part in a long news article that can be taken the wrong way (nepotism) and then includes it in Wikipedia under a bullshit rationale of using a reliable source that someone else recommended to him?
Regardless if they are in the sources or were actually spoken (in jest) by the subjects, they violate WP:BLP. And he's doing it in the obvious hope that a third party would notice that the links I gave in support of my Keep !votes in his AfDs (as he's emphasized a few times) may have some things that are sensationalist. That is WP:POINTY is it not?
Let me ask just one question to the administrators here: are his two additions to those articles potentially libelous or not? If you can say no to that and can restore those content in good conscience per WP:BLP, then I would accept an WP:IBAN. If not then no. I dislike interacting with him intensely, but I'd rather not have my ability to fix his childishness gimped by bureaucratic bullshit if no one else bothers to do so. I spent 30 minutes fixing his indent trolling in his last frivolous AN/I just to make it readable because no one else apparently saw any problem with that behavior either.
And no. Despite my dislike of him as an editor, this is not personal. I suggest looking at his actions, not his words.-- OBSIDIANSOUL 18:23, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
"You really believe his little story about finding it fascinating that someone's mother has 18 children by 3 men and is hinted to be a sex worker" -- I hinted she was a "sex worker"?? That's news to me. Since the quote came from her daughter, I seriously have to wonder where the "sex worker" angle came in. Because this is the first time I am hearing it.
I just caught the error by another editor in synopsizing my editing, and I must, as a moral imperative, clarify that I did not say "3 men", I said "3 husbands", as per her own daughter (Bovick)'s comments. Quis separabit? 01:47, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
While you do that, you should also clarify that you copied the whole paragraph verbatim without quotes (yes that's WP:COPYVIO too, but whatever). The author said "husband". Not you.-- OBSIDIANSOUL 02:29, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
"are his two additions to those articles potentially libelous or not?" - If they are they delete them and block me. I no longer give a shit. By all means let him fix what he finds objectionable and I will ask for advice from a third party if I disagree.
"I spent 30 minutes fixing his indent trolling in his last frivolous AN/I just to make it readable because no one else apparently saw any problem with that behavior either" -- indenting obsession paranoia (again; see above); I don't know how I am screwing up so badly at indenting yet no one else mentions it.

(Redacted) Quis separabit? 18:47, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
That last paragraph went way over the line. Don't do that. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:59, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Sorry. Quis separabit? 19:21, 2 October 2015 (UTC)


Since and Obsidian Soul didn't respond to my suggestion for a voluntary interaction ban, but preferred to keep sniping at each other instead, I propose a non-voluntary interaction ban imposed by the community; your standard off-the-shelf pret a porter iBan, with no unusual bells and whistles.

Not even going to answer my question? This isn't even a content dispute. Were his edits in good faith and do they pass WP:BLP? It's a simple enough question that actually addresses the underlying problem to all this. An iBan is convenient, but it doesn't fix anything. Unless you're actually agreeing that I'm doing this to "stalk" and "harass" him? -- OBSIDIANSOUL 23:41, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - As proposer. BMK (talk) 23:16, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
I apologize, @Beyond My Ken -- I was unaware of the "suggestion for a voluntary interaction ban" thus did not apologize reply, although I have been keeping tabs on this page obviously and did not see anything which required my response. Apologies. I need to read upon on IBAN; hopefully it will work. I will contact you if I have any questions. Thanks. Quis separabit? 00:06, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
@BMK: I think I understand. One question -- if a there is an edit that needs or can be substantively improved made by the other IBAN-involved editor, does one go to AN/I or start a talkpage discussion? How would that be handled, in the unfortunate event that such a situation arose? Thanks in advance for the 411. Quis separabit? 00:10, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that you bring your suggested change to the talk page, and allow another editor to make the change if they agree with it. You do not revert the edit yourself, or engage in discussion with the editor you're I-Banned with. BMK (talk) 02:32, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support The interaction between the users is toxic. appears to have made good faith attempts to learn from his mistakes and even if his attempts have been imperfect Obsidian Soul's rebuff goes far beyond a simple failure to AGF. If these two editors plan on working anywhere 'near' each other at least an interaction ban will provide consequences for continuing the conflict. Interaction bans do often cause trouble but in this case letting the situation fester seems worse. It would be better if both editors accepted the IBAN voluntarily but Obsidian Soul appears to have refused above. JbhTalk 00:30, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
"Appears". And still no one actually seeks to understand why I reverted him or why I left a note concerning his edits, other than just assuming it's a personal vendetta. Even though unlike him, I don't have a history of such behavior. I accept the voluntary iBan, if that's the only thing you can come up with. I'm tired. -- OBSIDIANSOUL 01:01, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
@Obsidian Soul: Yes, I did seek to understand both of your positions before I commented. I think you, quite rightly, got angry at some poorly researched AfDs and the conflict spun out of control from there. You were right Rms125a was making some bad nominations and they have admitted it. What you see as POINTy behavior I choose to see, barring clear evidence otherwise, as an attempt to learn, move on and work to repair damage caused by carelessness. This is what we want editors to do and we are bound to assume good faith when others try correct mistakes. I hope the iBan will give each of you time and distance to see each other as something other than opponents. I do empathize with your frustration, assuming good faith can at times be a pain but without that all conflicts here would turn into iBans and Wikipedia would close up because no one could talk with each other. JbhTalk 01:32, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
These aren't clear enough? [27] [28]. He's not that stupid or (given his time on Wikipedia) that clueless about WP:BLP as to not realize that what he inserted say pretty terrible things about the subjects. When he seemingly retracted his bad AfDs ("reluctantly" as he characterized it), I didn't comment. That was AGF. But then he added those. What will he do next to "repair damage" in the AfDs that gets kept? Insert another titillating factoid bordering on scandalous from one of the sources I gave to demonstrate GNG? There's assuming good faith, and then there's swallowing bullshit. That said, moot point. As long as he doesn't do anything like that again (and no, I don't mean the AfDs), I'll be absolutely ecstatic if I don't ever deal with him ever again. -- OBSIDIANSOUL 01:56, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Obsidian_Soul RMS's edits did not violate BLP. He had multiple reliable sources for what he was putting in , the sources said what he said they said, so no BLP violations. KoshVorlon 11:15, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
KoshVorlon: I've quoted the applicable lines from WP:BLP below. Also take note that the policies on WP:DUE and WP:COPYVIO are also relevant here.
WP:BLP: Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages.
WP:BLPSTYLE: Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone. Do not give disproportionate space to particular viewpoints; the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all. Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation and section headings are broadly neutral. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association, and biased, malicious or overly promotional content.
WP:BLPGOSSIP:Avoid repeating gossip. Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject.
Arespacochaga is a musician in a highly successful band in the Philippines in the 90s. Do you think mentioning his parents' connections to politicians and high-ranking executives in show business when he was growing up is relevant to the article? Bovick in turn is an actress. Does her mother's occupation (btw, in case most of you are as clueless as he is, "dancer in Cubao" is a euphemism for strippers), number of husbands and children, also qualify as "very important biodata"? Take into consideration that the articles as they stand are virtually empty of anything else.
Lastly, he did not find those sources. Neither did he use "multiple reliable sources" for the claims. He used one each (this for Bovick and this for Arespacochaga), all of them are sources that I found and gave in support of the AfD discussions on them. Both of them are published by reliable secondary sources (a national newspaper and a national TV network, respectively). Both of them are lengthy articles discussing the subjects' lives. And while the sources themselves are reliable, the content ranged from factual information to irrelevant trivia (that again, can be taken as libelous in the wrong context). He ignored all the rest of the information, and copied just those paragraphs verbatim to our articles, improper tone and untranslated Taglish and all. You really think there are no problems with that?
Just because a source is reliable, doesn't mean you should treat everything in it is appropriate for a Wikipedia article. Otherwise we might as well go ahead and add the snippet about Bovick showing her boobs at her first audition.-- OBSIDIANSOUL 17:18, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Obsidian Soul I saw your response, but waited to see if anyone else wanted to weigh in first. To answer you, BLPGossip would apply if what was in the articles was actually gossip. you removed | this from Paco Arespacochaga and | this from Aleck Bovick . The source for Paco was found in the GMA network, which is described [| in this entry ] as "a major commercial television and radio network in the Philippines.", not a tabloid, a major network. The source for Aleck Bovick was PhilStar, aka Philippine Star was is described [| here ] as "...the leading print and digital newspaper in the Philippines..." again, not a tabloid, but the leading newspaper, a tabloid wouldn't be described that way. Second, both links quote either the band or the person as the source for their information, so no, it's not gossip.

As for BLPSTYLE, what you removed was less than 1 paragraph of information, that by itself makes it no a style violation, more importantly, it didn't involve guilt by association, etc...

As for BLP itself, the wording was actually conservative, it could have been worded a lot worse (and a lot more un-conservatively!) Again, the sources in both cases were either the band or the artist themselves, as reported by reliable sources.

So, none fail BLP, and no one else has supported this claim either. You appear to be whitewashing both entries, in effect, removing things you don't like. Lay off that article and RMS as well. KoshVorlon 16:09, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

KoshVorlon You just repeated what I said. -_- I'll say this again for the millionth time: the sources are from ME. I gave them to him to support my Keep !vote in the AfDs on them. Even how you described GMA and PhilStar is almost exactly like how I described them to him. Because unlike you, he didn't bother to find out about them at all initially.
And read it again: "whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject." - gossip does not mean false. Sensationalism is also gossip. The giving of undue weight to information or events which are irrelevant to the subject matter but are exciting to the reader. Trivia. It doesn't matter if it comes from the subjects themselves, or whether even if they are true. The question is if they're relevant to their notability and appropriate for an encyclopedic article on them. I asked you if you understood what WP:DUE WEIGHT means and its significance in BLP articles. And I have my answer. You do not.
Yes, I removed 1 paragraph of information in each article which each had around 4 sentences in total. That is the entire point. They were the lengthiest part of the articles and they had nothing to do with why they were notable. That is undue weight.
Lastly, you saying that the wording itself is "conservative" is the part where I can truly tell that you didn't read or understand what I wrote previously. Both are COPYRIGHT VIOLATIONS. He copied the paragraphs without changing anything from the articles. One of them (on Bovick) included a joke (in Taglish) by Bovick that her mother died of blood loss due to having too many children (she didn't, she died by leukemia). Both of them are literally taken out of context, and the tone is literally that of your usual "showbiz news" segments. How you can characterize that as conservatively written is beyond me.
WP:BLP is not simply about WP:RS, it's also about context and due weight. If it wasn't, what prevents me from adding the part from the same article where Bovick confesses that she showed her breasts in her first audition? Or do you think that that's perfectly okay too?
He has explicitly stated that he wants to delete the "Miley Cyruses" from Wikipedia. He ignored all the earlier comments on his refusal to do a WP:BEFORE until very recently when too many (non-Filipino) editors started chiming in, and has stated that he has no intentions of going over possibly wrongly deleted AfDs in the past. So I highly doubt that he added those paragraphs out of the goodness of his heart either.
I'll ignore the accusation of whitewashing. That's pretty much what RMS originally accused me of too, and the reason why I lost my temper originally. Just note that I have edited those articles a grand total of ONCE. I do not write articles on Philippine pop celebrities, nor am I a fan of any.
Also note that I have never posted on his talk page. I have only interacted with him on the AfDs in question, on the topic on his AfDs in the Philippine Wikiproject (which I did not start and involved a lot more editors), and here in AN/I (which he started). Note as well that I have only posted in his AfDs when they were listed at the Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Philippines. I did not find them by looking at his contribs. I didn't even notice his edits on Arespacochaga's and Bovick's articles until he explicitly mentioned them in their AfDs. I have also been commenting on other AfDs in that list, and not all of my !votes are a mindless "Keep".
He, on the other hand, has taken me to AN/I three times, accused me (and at least a couple of other editors) of stalking and gaming the system, accused me of COI, and slyly accused me of either sockpuppetry/meatpuppetry (from what I can tell anyway) in another AfD because I misread a name of another !voter, and (despite his innocent protestations otherwise) intentionally added {{od}} templates after every single paragraph since I first indicated that he was misusing them.
And after all that, you think that it is I who was doing the harassing? Is it because he talks so much nicer around here? I've made no secret of my temper, nor do I believe that WP:AGF trumps WP:SPADE at all times. And this right here, is absolute horseshit. No worries about me leaving RMS alone though. As I've said repeatedly, to me, interacting with him is at most a necessary unpleasantness that I would very much prefer to avoid. But yes, good point, no one has stepped up to back me up or even just confirmed my worries. Not even simple factual things like the copyright violation. That disturbs me more than you think with regards to the state of the "community".
Carry on then. -- OBSIDIANSOUL 18:55, 7 October 2015 (UTC)


What is the OP alleging, and where are the diffs to support his allegations? (Otherwise, this thread is just a meaningless series of backbiting and bickering.) And what remedies is the OP possibly seeking (or else why post here?)? Softlavender (talk) 18:30, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Legal threats on Tube/Subway Challenge[edit]

Raising this here since it's ongoing: shifting IP addresses (apparently socks of User:Palkanetoijala) are making strong legal threats on the Tube Challenge and Subway Challenge articles and talk pages, claiming to be acting on behalf of a challenge world-record holder who wants his name removed from Wikipedia.

They're not being very clear, but so far as I can tell from this talk page, the user wants Wikipedia to include an unspecified (and presumably unsourced) "actual fastest time" for the London record, and believes that holding a sourced world record is some kind of useful bargaining chip because they mistakenly think that Wikipedia does not have the "rights" to mention a person's name without their permission. They seem to be saying that if Wikipedia won't include the unsourced record, then the record holder won't let Wikipedia include the sourced one either, and they've been making capslock "25 days to comply" legal threats as a result.

Since this claims to be coming from a named individual and this IP talk page says "stop this hello contact me by email" and gives an email address, is there someone who could talk to them directly? --McGeddon (talk) 09:52, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

I've dropped them an email through OTRS. Mdann52 (talk) 10:13, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Previous report on this case Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive900#Legal threat by IP. —Farix (t | c) 11:34, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
As an addendum, I would also suggest semi-protecting the talk page because the only posts from IPs for the last few days have been to repeat the legal threat. —Farix (t | c) 15:15, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
It's actually already been semi-protected for this reason, since yesterday. --McGeddon (talk) 18:15, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

I have blocked the IP for making legal threats. Since this person changes IPs often I made it a short block. HighInBC 01:55, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Just an FYI, the repeatedly blocked editor has returned with a new IP to edit Tube Challenge. I'll leave it up to others to determine whether to revert the edit or block the editor or reprotect the article. Deli nk (talk) 20:47, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Article was protected via a request at WP:RFPP. --NeilN talk to me 13:41, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Did your email get any response, User:Mdann52? IP addresses are still making legal threats and talking about a "war" against Wikipedia on the Tube challenge talk page. --McGeddon (talk) 08:35, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

@McGeddon: As I did this through OTRS, I'm not going to go into too much detail, but I've stopped corresponding due to further legal threats being made in the email discussion. Mdann52 (talk) 09:48, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
@Mdann52: The question is, is it really Andi James or someone pretending to be him. The writing style doesn't appear to be someone who is an adult or have a very good command of the English language. —Farix (t | c) 11:12, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
A Tube Challenge forum thread has a user with the same name as the sockmaster making the same threats against Wikipedia in the same tone of voice, with nobody calling him out as an impostor. But it makes no difference if it's an upset world record holder trying to overrule Wikipedia's sourcing policy by making legal threats, or a troll trying to goad Wikipedia into overreacting and blanking Andi's official record - there's been no good reason given for blanking a sourced world record. --McGeddon (talk) 18:01, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
I honestly think it is a troll, especially with the consent shift between first and third person when referring to Andi James. —Farix (t | c) 18:36, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Legal threat[edit]

There seems to be some type of legal threat at Talk:Tube Challenge placed by (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · edit filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) in this edit. I'll leave it up to the admins here to determine how to handle it. Edgeweyes (talk) 12:08, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Note also the #Legal threats on Tube/Subway Challenge section above. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 12:23, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Macrophilia article[edit]

I would take this to the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard or to the Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard, but there is a backlog at the former and this matter has already been taken to the latter in the past. Furthermore, the problem repeatedly going on at the Macrophilia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) article is that editors, WP:Newbies and other inexperienced editors, keep changing the content away from what is supported by the sources even after being told of the WP:Verifiability policy and WP:Reliable sources guideline. The article has also been plagued by WP:Socking. All of this is why the article has been WP:Semi-protected in the past. The article is bad enough as it is, without having to worry about WP:Synthesis being added to it. The issue is that macrophilia is predominantly documented in men, but some male editors keep trying to give "equal weight" to women being macrophiles; or, in the latest case, even to genderqueer people. For that latest development, see this, this and this edit made to the article, and this, this and this edit made to the talk page. ‎Jitenshasw (talk · contribs) has stated, "This is NOT opinion. Half of this article doesn't apply to women like me or male gay macrophiles. Changing to nongendered pronouns will fix everything. This article currently is appropriate for GTS not 'macrophila' as a whole. WE EXSIST STOP IGNORING US." Jitenshasw has stated that he or she is "taking a stand." Also see this edit. I don't see what is left for me to do on this matter, except take this article off my WP:Watchlist and let these editors have their way with it. I came upon the article in an incidental manner anyway. As far as I'm concerned, the article should be indefinitely WP:Semi-protected. Flyer22 (talk) 22:54, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

From what I am observing in the article history for Macrophilia, ‎Jitenshasw is in violation of the 3RR policy (also, looks to have edited while logged out here), has engaged in edit warring today, and a 24 hour block for edit warring should be applied. From what I am observing on talk:Macrophilia, ‎Jitenshasw has made it clear that (s)he does not care about Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, and that (s)he'll continue to edit war and violate Wikipedia's policies despite being asked to stop. This user clearly has personal ties and conflict of interest with this article and subject area, as indicated with his/her edits here, here and here, and is a SPA by the looks of his/her contributions. This user also appears to possibly be forum shopping now? (see here)
With this behavior in mind, the edit warring that has already occurred, the clearly stated intention to keep edit warring and violating Wikipedia guidelines without any regard to Wikipedia and the community, I believe that a topic ban should be imposed indefinitely upon ‎Jitenshasw and any articles regarding sexuality, broadly constructed. ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 23:46, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
I'm redacting my support for a 3RR/edit war block due to the below statement made by ‎Jitenshasw, so long as it doesn't continue. I'm striking out my support for a ban at this time, as I see that possible collaboration progress is being made as well. ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 19:33, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
I've already stopped the editing. I wasn't aware of the 3 revert rule, it wont happen again.

Dear administrator reading this. I realize you might not be part of this community, but it is a thriving and diverse one. I've been part of the macrophilia community for over 10 years as an artist and contributor. I run a NYC based Macro/Micro meetup which has women members (like myself) and many gay members as well. Here, take a look at a photo from our last meet in Central Park: While I'll agree that the majority of those 'out' are male and heterosexual, there is a significant portion of us who read the article in it's current form, and it does not read true to us.

This is an important matter of identity as most macrophiles like myself think about size on a day to day basis. Women in the community already often suffer greatly because their own desires are not respected by men. We're are supposed to assume this is a Giantess fetish by default, and if we don't conform, we're sometimes ostracized. That is not correct. Our own preferences should be respected! This has been argued before, and I strongly feel that changing the pronouns in the articles will keep information the same but without excluding women and those in the LGBTQ community. Please think about the morality on the subject. Many women (including myself) have suffered greatly from the back and forth of harassment and ostracizing tactics used by some men in the community. Please give us a voice.

We are real people who suffer deeply with identity issues due to this fetish. I'm a normal person, a wife, a hard worker. I go about my day to day silently suffering with this insecurity, my friends, family and co-workers unaware. I want to look at this page and say that I identify with this, THIS IS ME. But that's not what I'm reading. This is all wrong. A simple genderless pronoun change would solve that and make everyone happy. Jitenshasw (talk) 00:09, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I would support the gender neutral wording "giant" (as opposed to giantess) while keeping in language noting that it's primarily a heterosexual male fetish. clpo13(talk) 00:29, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

  • I support the editing of this article based on reliable sources, like we ought to. There is only one actual book cited, this one, in the article--the rest ranges from Salon to Gawker. In other words, the sourcing for this is atrocious, and that book actually suggests that it's a male fantasy, supporting gendered language. That's not to say this is what it is, but the sources right now support the gendering (the newspaper articles certainly do). Honestly, I couldn't care less if this were ungendered--though I do object to this article having been an alt-forum, a directory of fetishistic links, and a collection of movies that supposedly play into the fetish. Feel free to peruse the academic literature, or MEDRS, as should be appropriate for such an article--nothing. Perhaps James Cantor is ready for AfD number 2. Drmies (talk) 01:20, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
  • I am absolutely not willing to get involved here, but one source that could potentially provide some context is: Canning, Richard (2012). "What you weren't reading in 1952". The Gay & Lesbian Review Worldwide 19 (4): 16.  Unfortunately, I do not have access to this source to confirm its utility to the topic. Regardless, there are sporadic discussions in reliable literature; pronoun selection notwithstanding, I would definitely oppose a trip to AFD for the topic. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 15:50, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War[edit]

Something strange is happening with moves related to this page. It has been unilaterally moved without discussion to this page. People copy-paste large chunks of text. I think this page should be moved back to the original title and move-protected. All procedures must be properly followed. If people want to rename the page, they must make an RfC and wait for consensus. Furthermore, it seems that someone modified redirect to hinder moves by other participants. This is just another reason to move it back per this Arbcom decision. Administrative attention required. My very best wishes (talk) 19:24, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

To move the page back, you may go to WP:RM#TR and file an Uncontroversial technical request (following the instructions and using the template), with the rationale that the prior move was made without discussion. An admin will then make the move shortly.

I believe this thread may therefore be closed, as ANI is not the venue desired. Softlavender (talk) 19:37, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 19:43, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
You can also ask David O. Johnson about the move, since he was the one who performed it. It would be good to get his input and collaborate with him. Notice of this ANI has been left on his talk page. ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 19:43, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
No, I can not go to Uncontroversial technical request because I think this move is controversial. My very best wishes (talk) 19:47, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Parsa1993 is the one who originally moved it to the current title [29]; I just moved it back. I thought their arguments in support of the move were valid. David O. Johnson (talk) 20:24, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Redacted my statement above. Sorry! ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 20:52, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
I see. OK, one possible solution is to keep both pages for now and discuss their merging. Therefore, I just made revert in the redirect and marked them to discuss merging. But it seems that both pages have the same talk page.My very best wishes (talk) 20:40, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
There are now articles Russian intervention in Syria, Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War, Russia's role in the Syrian Civil War, Russian-Iranian military intervention in Syria, Foreign involvement in the Syrian Civil War, and Syrian Civil War. I may have missed others. There's extensive overlap. A neutral party is needed to organize that mess. Syrian Civil War should probably be the lead article, with the usual arrangements for subarticles. Is there some relevant WikiProject that can take this on? Thanks. John Nagle (talk) 21:10, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
And no one noticed WP:NOTNEWS, in their eagerness to get the scoop on the article, the title, the content. Drmies (talk) 21:32, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps this thread can be closed by now, but I think some admins should watch these pages.My very best wishes (talk) 23:33, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
One of those articles just hit the front page of Wikipedia. The subject is important enough and complex enough that it needs serious attention. But none of the task forces under Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Directory/History and society#Military and warfare seem to cover that conflict. The original poster here wasn't sure he was in the right place. There is no obvious right place. Sugggestions? John Nagle (talk) 01:55, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Status quo[edit]

There are currently only two overlapping articles (the others listed above by John Nagle are overarching parent articles), plus a redirect:

(NOTE: currently a redirect, but with 23,000 bytes of content prior. HOWEVER, the page was a cut&paste move and rename of Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War anyway)

Since September 30 there has been a Requested Move that Russian intervention in the Syrian Civil WarRussian intervention in Syria.

Since today there is now a MERGE proposal to Merge Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War into Russian-led military intervention in Syria.

Somewhere in all of the recent and fairly recent cut&paste moves (numerous), pop-up redirects, re-namings, double redirects, normal moves, and a change from hyphen to en-dash, things got duplicated (or possibly also overlapped or lost or whatever). (It's a bit hard to untangle as it involves half a dozen titles and page histories due to the various intervening titles and redirect pages.)

ADDENDUM: The two existing articles (Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War and the currently titled as of 13:01, 4 October 2015 UTC Russian-led military intervention in Syria) are virtually identical and one needs to be deleted.

-- Softlavender (talk) 04:42, 4 October 2015 (UTC); edited 05:17, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

UPDATE: EkoGraf has just moved Russian–Iranian military intervention in Syria to Russian-led military intervention in Syria. At least it wasn't a cut&paste move. I am going to re-do the titles above to reflect the change. Softlavender (talk) 12:17, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Softlavender Yeah I moved it from Russian–Iranian to Russian-led because the addition of Iranian to the title was unilateral and had not gone through any discussion at the talk page (while a discussion for another rename had still been ongoing). I wanted to change it back to the title from before the addition of Iranian (to preserve the status quo) but couldn't so I moved it to a title that seemed to be at least one of those most agreed to on the talk page. If I made some kind of mistake by doing so I apologize. EkoGraf (talk) 05:56, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
I personally don't have any serious objection ... other than it happened to add to the confusion and the amount of housekeeping I had to do to keep track of titles in this thread, and also it created some confusion in the discussions on those article pages. I think it was a good move; it's just the whole past 5 days has been a nightmare of about 10 articles or titles being created on the exact same subject. Hopefully it will all get straightened out in the next five or so days, and all the extraneous articles will be deleted. And for heaven's sake people need to remember that Wikipedia is not a newspaper. Softlavender (talk) 06:05, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

All of these pages should be labelled as under general sanctions[edit]

See Wikipedia:General sanctions/Syrian Civil War and Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. See Wikipedia:General sanctions#Community-authorised sanctions. They need talk page notices and Edit notices for the article pages. Doug Weller (talk) 12:54, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Use {{Editnotice SCW 1RR}} for the article page and {{Syrian Civil War sanctions}} for the talk page. To make an edit notice visit Wikipedia:Editnotice. Doug Weller (talk) 12:58, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
Ok, most of these are done, although some of the redirect pages may need them if they are moved back. Doug Weller (talk) 13:07, 4 October 2015 (UTC)


It might be worthwhile for an admin to lock Russian-led military intervention in Syria, merge Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War into it, and delete Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War before unlocking. That would save a lot of hassle because the articles are being edited as we speak, leading to more and more text to worry about. After the deletion and unlock, people can debate about the title as much as they please. Anyone who then moves without RM consensus, or cut&paste creates a new article, should receive an immediate block. Softlavender (talk) 13:08, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Block requests can go to RPP, but it's not our role to make content or merge decisions such as the one above. Doug Weller (talk) 13:34, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
The later article was an exact duplication of the first, and I've seen admins fix that sort of situation before it got out of hand. Given that the articles are being treated as newspapers with daily if not hourly updates, the sooner the page duplication is zapped the better, in my mind. That's my personal opinion, anyway. Softlavender (talk) 13:40, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
Nothing prevents anyone from making an AfD or using an RfC to discuss merging. I do not think this case is anything special. My very best wishes (talk) 15:02, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
Oh yes, we now have four pages about exactly the same: Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War (that was the first one; I think it should remain), Russian–Iranian military intervention in Syria, Russian-led military intervention in Syria and 2015 Russian air raids in Syria... My very best wishes (talk) 02:32, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
No, there are only three; you are confusing the redirect. There is the first article, its duplicate, and then the content fork (the latter which I just AfDed -- thanks Rich Farmbrough for pointing that one out). Softlavender (talk) 02:55, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
That's a progress. This merging discussion needs closing and action. I think the consensus was to keep page Russian military intervention in the Syrian Civil War and make Russian-led military intervention in Syria a redirect, while keeping its edit history to allow merging of content (the pages are not exactly the same). My very best wishes (talk) 13:09, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
I've closed the discussion as "merge". I'm not familiar with the topic, so I'm not going to do the merge itself; I redirected "Russian-led" to "Russian", added a note in the page history reminding reusers that the histories of both pages are now necessary for attribution. Hopefully someone else will merge the pages, simply copying content from old revisions of "Russian-led" into the current edition of "Russian". Nyttend (talk) 00:56, 7 October 2015 (UTC)


The editing environment at Ahmed Mohamed clock incident and the associated talk page is bad, and everyone there (myself included) needs to to work better at focusing on article content rather than attacks. Even in that context, though, I feel that User:Winkelvi has repeatedly crossed the line, and their disruption is making any sort of improvement in the tone impossible. Yesterday got into a bit of a row with them and figured a little time would do us both well, but today their replies to posts as carefully worded as I know how have continued to be attacks. I think per their comment here that Winkelvi is misinterpreting discussion on a contentious topic with BLP concerns as obstinance, but that doesn't really help me see a path forward. Help de-escalating the situation would be appreciated.

Examples of edits I find inappropriate:

Attempts to resolve the issue on the user's talk page [31], [32]. Notified here.


VQuakr (talk) 23:01, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

That Reddit discussion is toxic and really has no place being linked on the talk page. Talk pages are for improving the article, and pointing out how people in an anti-Wikipedia subreddit feel about the article doesn't help one bit. clpo13(talk) 23:18, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
So, VQuakr, are you reporting yourself? Erpert blah, blah, blah... 03:52, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
In the sense that my edits are going to be scrutinized due to my posting here, sure. VQuakr (talk) 17:15, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Looking at the article talk page, VQuakr clearly had consensus on their side. Winkelvi's edits were opposed because they served to obfuscate the central events/facts in the teen-clock-arrest episode through euphemism and poor wording. Winkelvi also attempted to introduce the weasel word "claim" into the lead, in a way that cast suspicion on the teenager Ahmed Mohamed. I have no idea if any of this requires an admin response, but VQuakr's behavior appears correct at Ahmed Mohamed clock incident. -Darouet (talk) 18:28, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

  • Winkelvi, can we have another strong reminder about the need to be WP:CIVIL in your conduct and communication[33] with other editors. Do you have suggestion about what we do this time (/next time) your user-ID appears here with diffs showing lack of WP:CIVILity in interaction. —Sladen (talk) 05:32, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
    • Winkelvi, given[34], will you be able to find time to reply to the thread here on ANI? —Sladen (talk) 19:05, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
      • Judging from the radio silence I surmise the answer is in the negative. By the way, in noting the diff posted by Sladen above, I found that it is a reference to this edit of another user's comment at an AfD that was questionable to say the least. I can understand the redaction, maybe, but removing the IP's comment, later reverted by another use, was both unexplained and unwarranted. Coretheapple (talk) 16:12, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
        • Not "unexplained". As far as not commenting here: not interested in giving credence to the attempt by the filer in selectively and discriminately stirring the drama shit pot. As it seems you are attempting to (once again) do in regard to me, Coretheapple. -- WV 02:54, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
          • Well I'm glad you dealt with that. How are you going to deal with this WP:CIVIL issue? Coretheapple (talk) 15:31, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Having looked over Winkelvi's talk page, there was a request earlier today[35] from Checkingfax for further information about why Checkingfax might had received a warning from Winkelvi (the warning is presumably [36]—reverted immediately by [37] by Calidum. I'll concur that the language appears to be polite on this occasion, but the assertion of "Looks pretty clear to me." instead of explanation, or even WP:DIFFS is concerning. Furthermore, I observe that the prompting to Winkelvi to perhaps engage got silently removed[38]. If this "radio silence" (/apparent unwillingness to engage in follow-ups) is widespread in so-many of these [attempted] interactions with Winkelvi this could be perhaps the source of some of the difficulties, leading to the tension and subsequent temptation for in-WP:CIVILility. —Sladen (talk) 07:04, 9 October 2015 (UTC) …And, I see we now have WP:ANI#User:Checkingfax reported by User:Winkelvi over at ANI.

  • Checkingfax was engaged in deadnaming re Caitlin Jenner and may also have been logging out to avoid scrutiny, I have issued a warning about that [39] since that, at least, is unambiguously unacceptable. Guy (Help!) 10:26, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Andering J. REDDSON[edit]

Andering J. REDDSON is repeatedly adding conspiratorial bullshit to Talk:Umpqua Community College shooting in violation of TALK, SOAPBOX and NOTHERE:

ATinySliver/ATalkPage 🖖 04:57, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I note the first section heading on the user's talk page: ¿Got A Problem With Me? Tough.
I've seen combative WP:NOTHERE, but I can't recall seeing it advertised before. ―Mandruss  05:02, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
The entire talk page could be a dissertation on DGAF. Face-grin.svgATinySliver/ATalkPage 🖖 05:09, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
It just wouldn't be a mass shooting in the USA if someone did not say that it was a hoax/false flag operation. I can't count the times that this has been said. WP:REDFLAG and WP:FRINGE apply here, and also WP:BLP if it is claimed that living people involved in the shooting have lied.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 05:25, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Read the user's page if you want a good laugh. AJR seems to be on a desperate "quest" to fix Wikipedia's reliability issues—after using the site as a source for a paper, evidently without checking the actual sources, which was AJR's own damned fault—and then spends time here spouting unsourced conspiracy theories?! Ironic, much? Face-grin.svgATinySliver/ATalkPage 🖖 05:35, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
I'm surprised this user hasn't been indeffed yet. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 23:50, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Where's that facepalm template...ah, well. I have a previous history with this editor for full disclosure which can mostly be found here. I fully concur with ATinySliver's description which leads me to wonder the same thing that Erpert expresses above. It should be noted that you will find many of his contribs as IPs (because he signed them) by searching on REDDSON. He has numerous talk page comments but few article contributions. I could never fully make up my mind as to whether he was trolling us or if he is really that way. He hasn't changed in years. I would suggest a lack of understanding and that he has his reasons for all those talk page posts. Please be warned that if you go to discuss something with him that you must be part of the liberal leftists that control Wikipedia. You belong to a cabal of conspirators of one form or another if you consider yourself a Wikipedian at all. The forces of evil must not prevail. :)
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:13, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
He should be blocked as WP:NOTHERE, especially with this sort of proclamation. He clearly doesn't think much of Wikipedia or its policies, especially those on collaboration. If he wants an encyclopedia that fits his worldview, there's always Conservapedia. clpo13(talk) 07:23, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Note that an off-topic comment by REDDSON was removed from this thread. While I agree that his comment doesn't belong here, it is further evidence of using Wikipedia as a soapbox. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:52, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Codename Lisa on article Computer Program[edit]

User:Codename Lisa did the following:

  • edited Computer Program's definition claiming an App is a sequence of computer instructions.
  • cited six questionable sources.
  • reacted to my objection by writing, "And yet so far, you have done nothing but poisoning the atmosphere with your negativity, ignorance, frivolous demands and in this case, a blatant lie."
  • reacted to my objection by writing, "The problem is your own brain..."
  • showed contempt for one of Wikipedia's Wikipedia:Five pillars by writing, "Enough being nice with this person."
  • showed contempt for Wikipedia's reliable sources policy by writing, "I also don't care if 'computer program' and 'app' are 100% synonyms."
  • admitted to doing original research by writing, "Even if they overlap 50% in meaning, they deserve inclusion in the article."

Here is the diff: Timhowardriley (talk) 16:30, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

@Timhowardriley: What administrator action are you requesting? This looks like an active content dispute. Parties should be mindful to keep arguments based on the content and not the editor, but there doesn't look to be anything actionable here that I can see. This looks like something that would be more appropriate for an WP:RFC or dispute resolution. If you want help with that, feel free to leave a message on my talk page. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 17:06, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Well, jeez, I dunno. Where I work, "you have done nothing but poisoning the atmosphere with your negativity, ignorance, frivolous demands and in this case, a blatant lie" isn't how colleagues work out differences of opinion re the best course of action to take. Seems to me that either the statement is mostly true, in which case Timhowardriley probably needs some administrator attention -- suggestions, warnings, a swift boot, or whatever; or the statement is mostly false, in which case Codename Lisa probably needs some administrator attention -- suggestions, warnings, a swift boot, or whatever; or there's something more complicated going on here, and maybe they both need some administrator attention. But at any rate Rhododendrites I wouldn't just shrug it off, no. Herostratus (talk) 17:32, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Fair enough. I do think that Timhowardriley is more or less in the right here, but the way he opened the discussion with a couple reverts and accusations of advertising likely got things off on the wrong foot. That doesn't excuse personal attacks, of course. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 17:49, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I did overreact to my first impression of the changes. I then softened my tone and apologized for it here: . Timhowardriley (talk) 17:59, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
As User:Rhodendrites has said, this is primarily a content dispute, although it is being compounded by violations of civility and personal attacks. Resolving a content dispute peacefully often helps resolve any conduct issues. The advice to read the dispute resolution policy is on the mark. WP:ANI should be a late stage in dealing with a conduct issue, and should not be used if content discussion is still feasible. In particular, I would suggest either moderated discussion at the dispute resolution noticeboard, where the moderator will keep the participants discussing content rather than conduct or contributors, or a neutrally worded Request for Comments on any questioned edits. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:17, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Second: This person has started with a WP:POINTy blanket revert ([44]) that destroys edits of more than one editor's contribution, and has a pointy edit summary. Codename Lisa's initial response ([45]) has been civil ... and rather interesting. Codename Lisa's edit have been supported by six citations; later 25 more sources were added to the talk page. However, assessing the very long discussion spanning 36 edits that has occurred ([46]), I cannot find a shred of evidence that Timhowardriley ever tried to treat the dispute fairly. I agree with the first of Herostratus assessments, "the statement is mostly true, in which case Timhowardriley probably needs some administrator attention -- suggestions, warnings, a swift boot, or whatever".
Fleet Command (talk)
* Regarding "His user page shows he has a long history of vilifying his fellow editors...": This essay is a long history of others vilifying me, not me vilifying others.
* Regarding "This person has started with a WP:POINTy blanket revert ([47]) that destroys edits of more than one editor's contribution, and has a pointy edit summary.": I'm sorry. I shouldn't have done that.
* Regarding "Codename Lisa's edit have been supported by six citations;": One reliable citation is necessary. Six unreliable citations are meaningless.
* Regarding the long discussion: Yes, I'm trying to extract the justification of why App is now synonymous with Computer Program. And if it isn't then it should be removed from the definition. I'm trying to keep the conversation technical; however, personal comments keep appearing from those who don't want the removal. Timhowardriley (talk) 20:16, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
"I'm trying to extract the justification of why App is now synonymous with Computer Program". Well, stop that. "App" can be in the article even if it is related enough. (You've been told already.) And it is related. Both Ruud and Rhodendrites, who are totally alien have performed marvelously better than you so far. Fleet Command (talk) 20:25, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
"This essay is a long history of others vilifying me, not me vilifying others." It is personal attack anyway. And when you have so much problem with so many different editors, it is high time you realized you are the problem, not others. Fleet Command (talk) 20:27, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Hello, Timhowardriley
No matter whether app is another name of software application does not really matter, because the most important thing is that you and this very beautiful lady, Codename Lisa, devoted both of your treasurable time and energies to that article, and even made it better. So the excuse between you both is much better than to judge who is not here to build an encyclopedia, because you both already come here to build an encyclopedia, and even improve it. So I wish let the time tell who is correct, and let the correct one to improve that article.
Best Regards,
Aaron J. (talk) 23:19, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

This diff [48] shows a recent pattern of abusive behavior by Codename Lisa that is worthy of a civility warning from an administrator. Any future offense should result in a short block. (talk) 00:52, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
In that diff, I found You have been mean to me times and again. I hate you. I hate you. I hate you., maybe I hate you. repeated three times made you think it is a abusive behavior. But in my opinion, I have completely different viewpoints, word hate has a strong emotional meaning, much stronger than dislike. If someone loves another one strongly, he/she would also repeats it for three times. But it was removed later, only existed on the history of that talk page. So it could not be an abusive behaviour. So I guard Codename Lisa with that if she repeated it three times to me, I would be glad much more than that!
Best Regards,
Aaron J. (talk) 01:36, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Eek. "I hate you, I hate you, I hate you" is not actually an insult (it's just an expression of emotion) and so I guess it's not necessarily exactly uncivil, and it is honest, but still... May I suggest a chill pill, @Codename Lisa:? You don't talk that way at work, I hope? Well this is our mutual workplace. Take a step back and remember 1) this is just a website, and 2) this is supposed to be a fun hobby, and 3) in 100 years none of this will matter. Please relax, will you? I suggest you'll be happier in the long run.Herostratus (talk) 05:51, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

@Herostratus: Thanks for the suggestion. But it appears you did not verify whether what I said is a joke and whether the person to whom I aimed it has been offended. Indeed, the person who raised the objection is (signing "Aaron J.") is the blocked vandal and sock-puppeteer User:Janagewen. (I will file a request to block his IP.) As for taking a chill pill, everyone here knows that I am the coolest person in Wikipedia. So, while I had fun reading your comment, a mass-produced prescription no less, I am afraid it is impossible to die from chill pill overdose. Face-wink.svg
And you know, I am not very comfortable with you coming here and becoming judge on people's behavior without getting your facts right. Wikipedians are human. For example: When a vandal insults a good Wikipedian 35 times, the good Wikipedian may eventually snap and retort back. But I am concerned that you may just add insult the good Wikipedian's injury by taking the vandal's side without knowing what you are doing.
Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 08:51, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Well but here's the thing. This is a very large website, fast-moving with a lot of edits coming in thru the pneumatic tubes every minute. Right now there're 23 threads on this board alone. It's not always possible to take the time to do proper due diligence, in addition to one's regular editing stuff (it's different it reaches the level of formal proceedings, of course). It's too bad but it's really just a subset of "people are busy and the world's unfair"... we want be as fair as reasonably possible. If I misread you, sorry, but jokes are hard to pull off here (I should know, heh), and anyway its not like I was calling for any sanctions or anything on you -- just a general admonition... I dunno who's right or who's wrong here, and not being an admin it's not really my remit to dig deeper, but if people are being mean to you and it's not your fault and you aren't able to convince them to stop, it seems a couple of solutions would be to double down and get your diffs in order and get those people on the track for being corrected or (if not amenable to correction) kicked out (which would be a service to the Wikipedia generally), or else go edit somewhere where those people aren't, for a while... Herostratus (talk) 15:05, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Legal threat made by user[edit]

A user has apparently made a legal threat at Special:Diff/684324996. Gparyani (talk) 23:28, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Okay, he appears to be WP:BROTHERing here: Special:Diff/684326379 Gparyani (talk) 23:35, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Talking to what seems to be a youngish editor. --NeilN talk to me 23:36, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
If his younger brother did it, then he's in violation of the rules by not securing his account. So either way, he has to be indef'd. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:14, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Or we we can take the situation for what it is - a young editor messing about - and respond accordingly. If it happens again, block them. In the mean time... hey look! Squirrel! --NeilN talk to me 13:38, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

I suppose that could be seen as a retraction of the legal threat and thus obviate the need for a preventative block. HighInBC 05:24, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Technically, yes. It would be a retraction of a legal threat, as childish as this situation is... :-) ~Oshwah~ (talk) (contribs) 06:40, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Strivingsoul disruptive editing and soapboxing[edit]

Strivingsoul (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) has previously been blocked for battleground editing after a report by Kudzu1,[49] and later reported again by Ian.thomson.[50] Already at that time there was understanding that the user is WP:NOTHERE, as the user has since effectively admitted to by stating that they "never shy away from defending what is justified according to our religion".[51] The user constantly enters edit wars and off-topic discussions to promote Irano-Islamist views in article space and talk space.[52][53][54][55][56][57][58]--Anders Feder (talk) 08:22, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

First off, I already admit my fault at getting caught in a few edit wars early during my past activities on Wiki. And I have done my best ever since to stick to the three-edit revert rule and settle the disputes in the talk pages as my knowledge of Wiki policies grew.
However, what prompted this user to make this complaint in particular is not really my past performance. What we have here is a clear case of diametrically opposed philosophical/political persuasions. Andres Feder apparently comes from a very strong atheist persuasion which has already prompted him to attack and ridicule beliefs of muslim contributors several times, which has indeed caused offense in the past for some users and has apparently led to WP:CIVILITY warning for him in a past ANI.
But beyond his continued violation of WP:CIVILITY, I can also identify the very same ideological prejudices behind his repeated allegations aimed at discrediting Iranian sources such as PressTV even in subjects where having Iranian official POVs are crucial for maintaining WP:NPOV. I have already dedicated my time a few times countering his arguments such as here and here, arguing for various ideological, political and financial biases of Western sources that he uses to suppress Iranian POVs reported by the official media outlets of the Islamic Republic of Iran based on the pretext that "Iranian media are controlled by the theocracy". So here's the real controversy that has led to his complaint against me. But he apparently wants to condition the users here against me by deflecting attention from the root cause of the difference. He wants to frame a random statement of mine where I said "I never shy away from defending what is justified according to our religion" to imply that I want to push my personal opinions into Wikipedia content. But that's not whatsoever the case and you can clearly see that if you examine the context of that statement. There, I was not whatsoever making that statement in violation of Wikipedia policies. That was basically a statement of my personal belief that came at the end of a discussion about the legal foundations of the Islamic Republic of Iran with a fellow Iranian! It was never made and never meant as statement standing against any Wikipedia policy. In keeping with Wiki policies, I had already explained in length by citing information and sources to counter his repeated allegations of bias against Iranian sources based on Orientalist charges of dictatorship against a very distinct form of theocratic-democratic political system that has emerged out of Shia political philosophy. Admins can already see my record on Islam/Shia/Iran-related topics to appreciate my contributions which has the effect of improving WP:BIAS against Iran/Shia/Islamic topics some of which remain highly underrepresented not just in Wikipedia but in the greater world as well. Strivingsoul (talk) 09:17, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
User:Strivingsoul, you go beyond simply advocating inclusion of the Iranian or Shia points of view to vigorous denouncing of those who oppose you. We can include accurate summaries of any point of view regardless of how unreliable, in a general sense, a source may be. You are correct that you are entitled to indefinitely advocate for an Islamist point of view with respect to any Wikipedia policy or content, but you cannot be disruptive in doing so. You need to totally reexamine the way you are conducting yourself. Better behavior on your part will not solve the behavior problems of others or resolve content issues, but is a minimum requirement for continuing to edit effectively. User:Fred Bauder Talk 09:33, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
But in opposing I put forward evidences and cite information for legitimate reasons. Please note that the primary counterpart of this controversy has always been Anders Feder alone. He continues to bring up the same POVs that are controversial and he tries to render his claims as a factual, objective ground to remove Iranian POVs from nearly whatever Iran-related topics I participate in. I don't know why he is so adamantly opposed to Iran. I even suspect his strong prejudice might be rooted in his sympathy for the state of Israel that is Iran's adversary. I can't find other explanation for a user who repeatedly desecrates my religion and attacks my country based on his personal persuasions. I'm not saying he should not disagree as he has every right to, but to fixate on repeated allegations regardless of repeater counter arguments is what bothers me and is truly disrupting. Strivingsoul (talk) 09:46, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
"I even suspect his strong prejudice might be rooted in his sympathy for the state of Israel" Jew-baiting, who should have thunk? I have no particular sympathy for Israel or anyone else, and readily act against Zionist POV-editors such as this one too. The reliability of your Iranian sources have been debated extensively here, including by yourself.--Anders Feder (talk) 10:01, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
His discussion of issues is also inappropriate, and he may be handling Iranian sources improperly. He is not wrong, as he strongly points out, and has good sources for, when he claims Iranian media is both controlled by the state and propagandistic. You don't have to be a Zionist to get that. The question is how to handle inclusion of the point of view without incorporating "facts" from an unreliable source. This is not easy. Denial of the unreliability of Iranian media is not a viable tactic; there are even claims, by Iranian leaders, that strong expressions of opinion by other Iranian leaders are not to be taken at face value. Nevertheless, assertions of opinion in Iranian media may be included as valid expressions of the point of view of the state. User:Fred Bauder Talk 10:11, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
What do you mean by saying that Iranian media are "controlled"? All media in the world are controlled but I don't see BBC for example being undermined for being funded and controlled by the UK government! And whether this or that media is "propagandistic" is quite subjective and depends on one's political stance! Strivingsoul (talk) 10:41, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
I mean that the state determines the content. The content of the BBC is determined by the British state which requires, other than with respect to certain sensitive issues, that the content of the BBC be reliable. That is not the case in Iran. Such a determination does not depend on one's political stance but on knowledge of the international media. If you chose to edit using Iranian sources (or Russian or Chinese, or American, for that matter) you need to have some sense of what is simply factual, possibly factual, or just plain made up. We do use highly questionable sources, for example, the rate of growth of the Chinese economy, as reported by the Chinese government. Likewise, some Iranian material can be used, but not all. Determining what is appropriate is a matter of editorial judgement. It should not all be excluded, nor should tendentious assertions be accepted as reliable. User:Fred Bauder Talk 10:57, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Exactly the same can be said about Iran. "The content of the PressTV (for argument's sake) is determined by the Iranian state which requires, other than with respect to certain sensitive issues, that the content of the PressTV be reliable. That is not the case in Britain...." but it seems that somehow Western governments are inherently superior to Iran even if they are lead by hereditary monarchs whereas Iran is lead by a modest religious scholar who is appointed and monitored by an elected body of legal experts. Strivingsoul (talk) 11:25, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Absolutely not! Iran could choose to have a free reliable media. There is an overwhelming international consensus that much of the controversial information in Iranian media cannot be trusted and is inappropriate for inclusion in an encyclopedia other than as the opinion of the Iranian state. Feel free to advocate for its inclusion, but please don't be disruptive about doing so. That includes ascribing motives such as Zionism to other editors, beating on them, or repeatedly making edits against the general consensus. Please try to find the best Iranian, Islamist, or Shia sources and consistently use them. I'm not that familiar with Farsi media, but I know there are excellent, mediocre, and poor sources in English. Consistently advance the best. User:Fred Bauder Talk 14:21, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Strivingsoul, Great Britain is led by its Prime Minister and a democratically elected assembly, as is the Netherlands, etc. , with hereditary monarchs playing a ceremonial role but with no real power. And the BBC's content is not controlled by the state - it's also funded by a license fee, not the government. Doug Weller (talk) 14:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
But still the Monarch apparently appoints BBC's Board of Trustees in Council. The licensing is also mandatory for citizens. And there's been all sorts of criticisms of biased reporting against the corporation. The most notorious bias undoubtedly effects BBC Mid-Eastern coverage which has been the target of UK imperialist policies and its alliance with the state of Israel which has been been a source of plight for muslims for more than 6 decades. But we don't see anyone seriously questioning BBC's reliability at least on Mid-Eastern/Muslim developments. Strivingsoul (talk) 16:53, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
While the Queen makes the appointments, she has no choice in the matter : "BBC Trustees are appointed by the Queen on advice from DCMS (Department for Culture, Media and Sport) ministers through the Prime Minister. When new Trustees are needed the posts are publicly advertised. Trustees are chosen on merit and the process is regulated by the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments." (from The British constitutional monarch is titular head of state, but not head of government except for ceremonial purposes. ArglebargleIV (talk) 20:08, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
User:Anders Feder, I have done what I can in the way of jawboning. As noted above, you too, need to do much better. Keep in mind that all states, and points of view, have their media voice, and that all media is in some sense biased, if only in what they choose to report. It is the controversial tendentious assertions of factual content that seek to advance sectarian objectives that need to excluded, not every fact published. Consider the objectives of the Iranian state while making editorial decisions. For example, they would like to embarrass Saudi Arabia over the Hajj, so they might assert questionable facts with respect to the recent tragedy. Obviously, if the behavior you complain of continues indefinitely User:Strivingsoul must eventually be blocked, or even banned, but please don't make him feel that nothing in Iranian media is acceptable. User:Fred Bauder Talk 15:11, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
What about his demeaning statements against the muslim beliefs?! Does he really have to attack our beliefs for working in Wikipedia?! Strivingsoul (talk) 16:53, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
In addition, that past RfC never refuted my rebuttal of argument from control. As I also argued there and again here, if control is the problem then all media outlets are somehow controlled either by governments or corporations. There has been indeed scholarly critique of the hazards of corporate consolidation of mass media which can affect their objectivity and/or reliability. Please have a look at Corporate media. Strivingsoul (talk) 17:01, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
I go by the closing comment on the RfC linked above.[59] If anyone opens a new RfC on that, I am happy to follow the outcome.--Anders Feder (talk) 15:59, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
It is sound, but you are twisting the knife. User:Fred Bauder Talk 16:33, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
What source have I opposed that I should not have opposed?--Anders Feder (talk) 16:45, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
None that I know of but don't be so nasty. User:Fred Bauder Talk 17:38, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────By the way, User:Strivingsoul, David Duke, and anything connected with him is a subject you should avoid. It is a hot button issue due to his notoriety; a stick in the eye does not make friends. This sort of behavior can easily form the basis of a topic ban as can any anti-Semitic editing, especially using Iranian sources. User:Fred Bauder Talk 15:24, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your good-faith advise. But I am afraid I have to defer! First off, I perfectly knew that David Duke is notorious for his past association with the White Supremacist KKK back in 1970s. But what I also know in addition is that over the last 3 decades Duke has apparently developed a very distinct career which can be described as only a White nationalist. Studying his career over the last decade I never saw him harboring any racist sentiments against Africans or advocating anti-Semitism. The reason I'm saying this and I dare to say this is that I personally read his book Jewish Supremacism and therefore I could directly learn about his character and positions from that book. And having read his book I could outright tell that a number of allegations about his views as expressed in the book are totally unfounded. And interestingly those allegations mainly come from such notorious sources as the ADL which has a long history of attacking and defaming even critiques of Zionist genocidal policies and have been exposed for spying on American activists who speak for Palestinian rights! David Duke similarly over the last three decades has been speaking out against Zionist atrocities against Palestinians and for that reason, it is not hard to tell why there is so many vicious libels heaped against him by the ADL and/or other pro-Israeli sources. I know you may find these hard to believe but please before rushing to judgment at least have a look at these two videos where he is given opportunity to speak for himself. In this interview he doesn't whatsoever sound like a White supremacist bigot. He openly rejects any form of racism but also believes that there's a dominant anti-Christian/anti-White prejudice in US media. In his Youtube channel as in this one he deeply sympathizes with the tragic suffering of Palestinians at the hand of Zionist state and is trying to raise awareness. These are some of the alternative sources that paint a much more charitable picture of this person and these alternative perspective supports my claim of bias as per WP:NPOV in the review of the book. Strivingsoul (talk) 16:53, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
There is no practical difference between "White Nationalism" and "White Supremacism". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:27, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Interestingly, an IP editor from the UK made the exact same distinction in this edit.--Anders Feder (talk) 17:36, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
That it is possible in an abstract way does not determine the issue, the attitudes of those organized under the banner do, and anti-Semitism is the touchstone, a non sequitur with respect to any genuine advocacy of European welfare. User:Fred Bauder Talk 17:42, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
You are not listening: you have your wet tongue on a 440 Volt line and you are standing in water. Given this post I would not oppose a permanent topic ban from editing any subject related to Jews or Israel. User:Fred Bauder Talk 17:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
I did not mean he has not been a White supremacist. But from studying his recent interviews, articles and books over the last decade that are available, it is clear that he no longer advocates white supremacy which is defined as a form of racism centered upon the belief, and promotion of the belief, that white people are superior in certain characteristics, traits, and attributes to people of other racial backgrounds and that therefore whites should politically, economically and socially rule non-whites according to White supremacy. In the interview I linked he openly condemns slavery and all forms of racism. So please before threatening to ban me for simply pointing out some facts, consider examining the sources that I have suggested. Have I made any unfounded claim or have caused any offense?! And what I suggest in this regard is admitting the bias by ADL in misrepresenting the content of the book, as well as, including Duke's recent positions as per WP:NPOV. And for that I can produce direct quotes from his book that disproves some of the negative allegations against what the book says. I understand these facts may contradict some of the assumptions about this apparently sensitive topic considering the alliance most Western governments have with the state of Israel and as a result a much more positive attitude towards Israel, but in Wikipedia we have to be neutral as you all know. If you have lived in the Middle East or if you were a muslim, you would see that sentiments are very different towards Zionism and Israel in this part of the world for obvious reasons. So don't just take your own perceptions as granted and universal. Strivingsoul (talk) 18:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
You've made many an unfounded claim, not the least of which is Duke isn't racist just because he claims he isn't racist. He just happens to think European (non-Jew) whites are genetically superior to every other people on the planet (including your own) and that the U.S. and Europe should be white only. Visit his website where you can see how he laments that Europe is being "invaded" by Muslims. Or how European whites are more intelligent than all other races. That's racism. As of late he's just turned his racism towards Jews because it sells more of his crappy conspiracy books. Duke is a crank and a laughing stock and the fact that you in any way take him seriously shows you have a very bad grasp of which sources would be considered reliable on Wikipedia. Capeo (talk) 23:09, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
He claims that every people have a right to preserve their heritage. And that multi-culturalism leads to ethnic tension and conflict and destruction of distinct cultural traits of each people. We may not agree with him but he's making a compelling case for his view, and this is unfair to rush to frame it as racism simply because he is against massive aggressive immigration into Europe and America. He also cites Jewish sources which show how multi-culturalism was promoted by Jewish organizations in order to weaken the Christian culture of America. On a related topic, here is one of the Jewish sources he directly quotes that you can see for yourself. The Jewish author admits and brags about their role in the notorious porn-industry and its dark anti-Christian goals: Jewish involvement in porn, by this argument, is the result of an atavistic hatred of Christian authority: they are trying to weaken the dominant culture in America by moral subversion. (This is really interesting for me, since this is a pattern I have myself witnessed in another case. Israeli Prime Minister Netanhayu had also advocated regime change in Iran back in 2002 through cultural and moral subversion -- by advocating beaming hedonist and degenerate Hollywood productions by a gay Jewish director into Iran in order to corrupt Iranian youths until they revolt against their Islamic government). Just as evident in this example, his book primarily draws from Jewish sources to present his thesis. Most of the book content are NOT his opinions but just quotes after quotes! He is not also claiming there's a crazy conspiracy theory but that Jews have an enormous influence over US media and politics and therefore deeply influence the US culture and politics. And again he backs up his claim by providing testimony from Jews themselves. Here is one of the testimonies he quotes from a Jewish author: I have never been so upset by a poll in my life. Only 22% of Americans now believe "the movie and television industries are pretty much run by Jews," down from nearly 50% in 1964. The Anti-Defamation League, which released the poll results last month, sees in these numbers a victory against stereotyping. Actually, it just shows how dumb America has gotten. Jews totally run Hollywood. So we can probably suggest that this guy talking about "total control of Hollywood by Jews" is a self-hating anti-Semitic Jew!!
And I'll also be happy if you show me a Duke's recent statement that says Whites are superior to non-whites. There could've been such statements coming from him during his youth where he held more radical views, but I've not seen any statement along that vein in those of his works or articles over the last two decades that I have studied. Strivingsoul (talk) 03:15, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
I concur with Fred, anyone who doesn't see antisemitism in Duke's writing and views should not be anywhere near articles on the subject. Capeo (talk) 17:56, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
What I am simply proposing is balancing the article and admitting the blatant bias of relying primarily on Jewish/Zionist organizations. You did not address any of my evidences and arguments here but only rush to advocate restriction for no legitimate reason. This is not honest. Strivingsoul (talk) 18:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
You supplied no evidence, just typical antisemitic conspiracy theories. Comparing Iranian state run media to western free press is beyond ridiculous. Yes, certain outlets tend towards certain political leanings but they all have one thing in common: they freely criticize or report on criticisms of their governments and state establishments and report on everything and anything newsworthy no matter how it makes their home country look. Daily. With no fear of repercussion from the government. As opposed to say, IRNA, which sets out guidelines that must be followed by their "journalists" that allow for no criticism of the state or Islam. Please. Next time a Western country throws a journalist in jail for "propaganda against the establishment" let me know. Until then, you have no point and should stay far away from away from articles on the subject. Capeo (talk) 20:33, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Western media control is much more subtle and systematic in nature and it is because of the corporate control of the media that is interconnected with others in the rich corporate ruling class. See Corporate media for this scholarly thesis. So the real influential people in the West are not politicians but the super-rich corporations who fund electoral campaigns and lobby for corporate gain and dictate government policies through "non-profit" foundations, promote their commercials for profit etc. Western sources especially in countries like USA, UK, Canada are also notorious for preventing the public from knowing about many dark facts of their foreign policy, e.g. imperialist catastrophic wars against nations driven by corporate grid disguised under "humanitarian intervention" or "democracy promotion" or decade after decade of unconditional financial and diplomatic support for the Zionist regime despite its long hideous human rights record and several acts of massacre committed against muslims. So you can't have a correct assessment of "freedom" in the press if you are not familiar with Political economy critical analysis of the corporate media or have not followed alternative media reporting of the crucial issues that are systematically censored or highly under-represented or misrepresented by a small number of Corporate media conglomerates that control 90% of the media outlets. But contrary in Iran, big money is not dictating news and public opinions but Islamic principles of a muslim nation. In Iranian state media, presidential candidates all enjoy a free and equal time to present their platform without needing to spend tremendous sums on campaigning, but in the West big corporations can practically decide the outcome of the elections depending on which candidates they choose to financially support. In the West big money rules and defines freedom but in Iran it is the Islamic virtues of its committed leaders. And if there are some fringe journalists who were sentenced for their treason or offending the Islamic beliefs of the majority that doesn't say anything to support the idea of lack of press freedom in Iran. Iran has a constitution that overwhelming majority of Iranians voted for in a public referendum. Strivingsoul (talk) 03:15, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
I honestly don't know why I'm responding, this will be my last, but I can't help myself. I'm aware of all the deficiencies inherent to corporate media and corporate influence on politics. Do you know why? Because these issues are constantly reported on by a vast array of media outlets and politicians in the U.S. You think you're exposing some dark secret yet these discussions and criticisms are at the forefront of debate in the U.S. precisely because we have a free press and the ability to criticize whatever we we wish. This: "And if there are some fringe journalists who were sentenced for their treason or offending the Islamic beliefs of the majority that doesn't say anything to support the idea of lack of press freedom in Iran," displays a stunning disconnect in regards to what a free press and freedom of speech are. Capeo (talk) 12:59, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Proposal: Community ban[edit]

Proposing an indefinite community ban from Wikipedia or a topic ban on anything related to Judaism, broadly construed, per Wikipedia:Competence is required and based on the discussion above, especially the claim regarding David Duke that "Studying his career over the last decade I never saw him harboring any racist sentiments against Africans or advocating anti-Semitism." Gamaliel (talk) 04:22, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

And what's so terrible about that claim to deserve a topic ban?! Please cite evidence to counter my claim. I can still cite many more evidences to back up my claim. Others have presented virtually non! And what a fair way of conducting an ANI discussion indeed! Rushing to topic ban regardless of any substantial evidences exchanged! I'm not here to cause trouble but work according to WP:NPOV and to minimize WP:BIAS. Is that what warrants such an aggressive measure against me?! I recommend allowing this discussion to proceed further in the mainspace talk pages. It is too early to judge! Strivingsoul (talk) 04:30, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
I also tag an experienced muslim Wikipedian that I have worked with on Islam/Iran-related topics for arbitration. Some participants in this page seem to be more or less biased against me and the topic, and ignore my explanations. @Sa.vakilian:. Strivingsoul (talk) 06:43, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
I come here due to Strivingsoul's request and do not want to participate in ideological or religious discussions. @Gamaliel:, As I know, we should judge about the users based on their activities not their ideas. Let's check whether Strivingsoul or Andres Feder have violated the wikipedia policies and guidelines or not. --Seyyed(t-c) 06:03, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
What does it matter that he is Muslim? The issue being discussed is your behavior, not your religion. Being Muslim isn't a justification for being disruptive.--Anders Feder (talk) 06:13, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Anders Feder! You are the one who instigated this whole mess to begin with! You've lumped together so many different issues in your first post that can not be properly addressed here with discernment. The last time I was also banned was also for a similar reason. An administrator rushed to take an unfinished talk-page dispute to ANI while I was still defending my case.
And the reason I brought up religion because as I explained earlier this dispute started out of we coming from diametrically opposed philosophical/political persuasions. You were strongly biased against Iran and Islamic topics hence I needed to counter some of your allegations with alternative information. Strivingsoul (talk) 06:39, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
So you are saying Sa.vakilian is in possesion of some "alternative information" that will vindicate views such as: "[Jews] are trying to weaken the dominant culture in America by moral subversion"?--Anders Feder (talk) 06:51, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
No! But probably compared to you who are driven with your anti-Muslim prejudices, he has the integrity to recognize that I was basically quoting a Jewish journal quoting Jewish porn-producers saying exactly that: Jewish involvement in porn, by this argument, is the result of an atavistic hatred of Christian authority. They are trying to weaken the dominant culture in America by moral subversion. Strivingsoul (talk) 07:26, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Why were you quoting it? What were you trying to show?--Anders Feder (talk) 07:04, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Please don't unnecessarily drag this any further! You can just scroll up some paragraphs or use Ctrl+F to locate where I quoted it and in which context and purpose. Strivingsoul (talk) 07:26, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
The purpose is clear, and Gamaliel's proposal was made in response to it.--Anders Feder (talk) 07:33, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
If you are interested in evidence for my alternative view here is one from Duke's official website: "In truth, as racism is defined, if you believe in mutual respect of all peoples, and you oppose the oppression of a people by another people, you are not racist, but actually anti-racist. The truth is that any race can practice racism, not only white people.". Strivingsoul (talk) 08:09, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Since you're so concerned about quotes being used out of context, just pointing out that you omitted The truth is that the real ultra-racists are those who control the media. The Zio Media demonizes whites and incites hatred in blacks toward whites and self-hatred in many whites toward themselves. They do this so they can divide and conquer and control us all. They especially hate whites and seek to demonize whites because they see the 60 percent of the white population as their biggest competitors for power, so they want to weaken and demoralize white people, and create a coalition against white people while they are the true masters of media, finance and government. from that quote. ‑ iridescent 08:18, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban "The best good will is for naught if a basic understanding of the facts, their mainstream interpretation and their cultural context are lacking." No ethnic group or nation should be subjected to editing this tone deaf. User:Fred Bauder Talk 06:22, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
I'm quite familiar with basic policies and workings of Wikipedia. But the problem is this discussion has become too loaded with various disputes. If it was not for Anders Feder extreme opinions and his taking so many different issues to ANI, I would have been proceeding in relevant talk pages to discuss and settle the disputes with other involved Wikipedians. And I can see you yourself admitted that Anders Feder's behavior was crucial for instigating this whole unnecessary controversies. Let's us just discuss and settle the disputes in relevant talk pages. I understand this thread has already become very exhausting and hard to judge so many disagreements. Strivingsoul (talk) 06:39, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
People can have a look at my recent useful contributions to Houthis to get an idea of my good understanding of Wikipedia policies. Strivingsoul (talk) 06:52, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
"Death to America, death to Israel, damnation to the Jews." is not ambiguous. See your edit here. User:Fred Bauder Talk 07:29, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Don't cover up the full facts! Why do you need to cite out of context and ignore alternative POVs already covered in that page which reject the literal interpretation of that slogan?! Strivingsoul (talk) 07:53, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
It is you who doesn't understand what anti-Semitism is! Please stop pushing for your accusations and have a look at Criticism of the Israeli government#Objections to characterizing criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism! Considering our unresolved dispute here, you are by no means an impartial arbitrator! Anders Feder has only canvassed biased users against me to corner me by completely ignoring any of the extensive explanations I have offered so far, and repeating baseless accusations! Strivingsoul (talk) 07:53, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
You'll find that most users on this site are similarly "biased" against antisemitism or any other sort of bigotry. There is a huge difference between criticizing the policies of the Israeli government (something Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper, does fairly often) and pretending that a known neo-Nazi is somehow not a bigot. If you can't tell the difference, you don't belong here. That dispute was resolved, and everyone found that you were wrong. The only thing that was left unresolved was that we failed to block you as a troll for pretending that a man who headed an organization dedicated to violence against blacks and Jews is somehow a spokesperson for tolerance. When you said that you never saw any evidence of racism on his part, you were lying either to us (as a troll) or to yourself (as a bigot). Either behavior does not belong here. Ian.thomson (talk) 08:07, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
That's not true! Did you honestly read my explanations for example when I said: I did not mean he has not been a White supremacist. But from studying his recent interviews, articles and books over the last decade that are available, it is clear that he no longer advocates white supremacy. Furthermore, I linked evidences that he openly rejects racism in his statements over the last two decades. My argument is that the charge of racism is true only for the period that he was involved with KKK in 1970s. But at least for the last two decades he does no longer harbor racism against any group. And I have already provided sufficient evidences to back this up if only you care to study them! The problem is this dispute should've been resolved in the book's talk page and not dragged here. This whole controversy started from a disagreement on reliability of Iranian sources. Completely irrelevant to the accusations you posed here. Strivingsoul (talk) 08:15, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
It's not like your efforts to bog down constructive editing in rants regarding how mainstream sources are controlled by the Rothschild family, the British queen, etc. are any more helpful to the project than your defense of the views of David Duke.--Anders Feder (talk) 10:54, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Don't twist, generalize, falsify, lie! Have some shame! Produce evidence, context and link for anything you attribute to me next time! Strivingsoul (talk) 02:59, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support indef. WP:NPOV doesn't mean being obliged to give every racist crackpot theorist equal airtime to mainstream views, and given the responses in this thread, this editor is never going to understand that. ‑ iridescent 08:21, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support indef. per above. — Ched :  ?  08:25, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Let's just halt this mess for a second, Users here drop in and are simply provoked by the gross appearance of the charges against me and ignore my extensive explanations. But this whole accusatory mess against me started when Aders Feder dragged a dispute over reliability of Iranian sources to ANI and lumped it together with many other unresolved issues in the past such as the dispute over neutrality of David Duke book' analysis to condition the users against me. I should make it clear that I do not advocate anti-Semitism but it is vital to allow legitimate criticism of Israeli government or Jewish pornographers from a Christian point of view such as that of David Duke to be properly represented in the articles as per WP:NPOV, and we can resolve and decide this in the relevant talk pages as I had once attempted here: Talk:Jewish Supremacism: My Awakening to the Jewish Question. This has really become an unnecessary loaded fuss and unfair accusation game against me over so many unresolved issues. Let's us just proceed to settle them in the long run. I apologize for my part for indirectly having contributed to this controversy but like I said I was not the one who started this but Anders Feder! Strivingsoul (talk) 08:29, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
No one are "ignoring your extensive explanations". They read your extensive explanations and conclude that they amount to nothing.--Anders Feder (talk) 08:40, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) This is not "ignoring your extensive explanations". Your "extensive explanations" are predicated on the assumption that the ultra-marginal views of David Duke are mainstream enough that NPOV mandates they be discussed. For anyone unfamiliar with David Duke, just reading his official homepage should speak for itself. ‑ iridescent 08:46, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
What if those "ultra marginal" views such as ones expressed in his book are exhaustively backed up by +600 scholarly references?! I think WP:BIAS warrants fair representation of his views especially when they are properly backed up. His views are also not ultra-marginal and not even quite marginal! There are many left-wing, right-wing and even Jewish critiques who concur with many of his points in regards with Zionism. Example: Noam Chomsky, Israel Shahak, Robert Faurisson, Norman Finkelstein and Neturei Karta. There are also many Christian Conservatives and Palocoservatives who might not be as outspoken or well-known as him but still share his views on emigration and/or defending Christian values against liberal/Jewish cultural war. Examples E. Michael Jones, Neal Gabler, Ron Paul, Pat Buchanan and more. Strivingsoul (talk) 09:17, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support indef, or ban (although that seems unnecessary), or topic ban (although that would probably just move the advocacy elsewhere). Supporting Duke is one type of problem, but making the statement quoted above indicates a much deeper issue because editors have to be sufficiently competent to understand basics, particularly when engaging in these areas. Johnuniq (talk) 10:17, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support siteban (first preference) or topic ban (second choice). Among the things Wikipedia does not need, unashamed apologists for white supremacism and antisemitism must surely rank near the top. Guy (Help!) 12:12, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support Whatever has the greater consensus. Although topic ban should really be attempted first. Reason: RE David Duke, sheesh. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:16, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support I was waiting till I saw their responses to me from last night before I proposed a siteban myself. Now that I see them this morning. Just... wow. David Duke and the word "scholarly" in the same sentence? There is nothing good that's going to come from Strivingsoul's continued presence here. Capeo (talk) 12:48, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
You just like pretty much everyone else in this page, have no idea about Duke beyond than ADL/Zionist propaganda or his past KKK association back in 1970s! You don't even know the guy has a Phd in history! You have not read his scholarly book that contains 600+ references! So you just jump in the bandwagon to spew out "Ban ban ban ban!" You seem so biased and misinformed about this man that you apparently even can't believe your eyes when looking at several pieces of evidences that I have offered in my lengthy discussions! ### for everyone else supporting "ban ban ban ban"! Strivingsoul (talk) 14:34, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
You're really not helping your case with your continued insinuations about Zionist propaganda. In any case, people with advanced degrees and published books can still be bigots. One only needs to look at David Duke's website to realize that while he's shied away from the overt bigotry of his KKK days, he still harbors a lot of the same feelings towards Jews. clpo13(talk) 15:01, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
David Duke got his "Ph.D" from a Ukrainian diploma mill know for its for virulent anti-antisemitism. They handed it to them because he supports their views. He's not a scholar and his book's supposed scholarly references are quote-mined bullshit taken out of context. He's never published in any journals, never cited by actual scholars and is a complete joke. Not to mention he went to jail for bilking his followers. Your "evidence" is, again, quote mined bullshit that in no way examines the context of the quotes and tries to paint said quotes as speaking for an entire people. It's disingenuous trickery used by people with no argument. Can we just ban this person at this point? Anyone seriously arguing that Duke meets reliability criteria or is a scholarly source lacks the competence to edit here. They're here to push their POV and that's it. Capeo (talk) 15:23, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
"Known for its virulent anti-Semitism" Yes! Dare to criticize Zionist genocidal policies or point out things like atheist Jewish pornographers' self-declared agenda of weakening Christianity by moral subversion, or US unconditional support for Israel's occupational apartheid, and then be branded as "anti-Semite" by ADL's Stalinist thought policing, to the point of even making the absurd claim of Self-hating Jew for decent Jews who point out the same injustices by their fellow tribesmen! And my evidences prove that there are perfectly legitimate grounds in David Duke's or (others', for that matter,) criticism of extremist, anti-Muslim, anti-Christian elements with Jewish background, unless you're advocating the view that once someone happens to come from a Jewish background, he or she somehow miraculously becomes infallible and should not be criticized for anything wrong! Strivingsoul (talk) 02:53, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose (community ban) While I agree with most of the above discussions about lack of competence regarding the David Duke and related issues, there is not enough evidence of Policy violations. Therefor, I think "topic ban" is enough to punish him and community ban is not justifiable. I wonder how the above comments are made in support of the proposal without trying to show how the editor has violated policies and which policies have been violated.​ The discussion, despite being full of hot comments, is not what an ANI discussion should be.--Seyyed(t-c) 14:18, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for some little sense! But about "lack of competence" what's that?! And the only policy that seems I have grossly, badly, awfully violated is ADL's political correctness!! But I didn't know that's part of Wikipedia policies, you know! Nobody even told me that! But maybe you can guide me to the relevant Wiki help page! Strivingsoul (talk) 14:38, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
WP:CIR is enough. There need not be specific policy violations cited for the community to decide that an editor is a net negative to the project due to soapboxing, POV-pushing and overall lack of a clue. Capeo (talk) 15:31, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support community ban. This editor, while making a few constructive edits, has engaged in repeated disruption that results in a net negative for the project. Mamyles (talk) 14:22, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Net negative indeed! I had planned to work on multiple Iran/Shia/Islam-related topics and help other Farsi-speaking editors with English language! But apparently the net negative is really worth it for God forbid disagreeing with ADL or Zionist political narrative! It's you know such an irredeemable crime against humanity! Strivingsoul (talk) 15:08, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban on anything relating to Jews or Judaism. His continued assertions that David Duke's reputation is merely the result of the "ADL or Zionist political narrative" indicate an unwillingness to be neutral when it comes to this topic. With regards to policy violations elsewhere, I'm not convinced this editor is enough of a problem to justify a complete community ban. clpo13(talk) 15:33, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
"Merely a result of..." when did I say that?! I already admit that Duke deserves criticism for his past association with KKK! But that's not justification to brand him as anti-Semite for criticizing the grotesque crimes of the Zionist state, or the influence of Zionist lobby on US foreign policy, or atheist Jewish pornographers that have vowed to subvert Christian culture in American by promoting moral degeneracy! And it is interesting you talk about neutrality but support ADL's biased review of his book to be cited as fact! Strivingsoul (talk) 02:53, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
Ad it is interesting you talk about neutrality but support ADL's biased review of his book to be cited as facts! Please show me where I did or said anything of the sort. clpo13(talk) 03:17, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
WP:STOPDIGGING. Support topic ban, at least, as per Onel5969. GABHello! 01:06, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support site ban. The David Duke comments seem to reflect a deeper inability to look at sources/issues and be able to discern propaganda/conspiracy from actuality and that is a massive competence issue. The "... Zionist political narrative!" bit does it for me JbhTalk 15:38, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support site ban as per Gamaliel's nomination. Editor's continued responses to each vote only confirms the underlying assumption which prompted the ban suggestion. Onel5969 TT me 16:12, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support site ban per nom; nothing more to be said. BMK (talk) 23:13, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support site ban -- WP:COMPETENCE, complete cluelessness, quite possibly being a troll ("Atheist Jewish pornographers that have vowed to subvert Christian culture" -- how tired), etc etc. EEng (talk) 02:50, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support site ban Just keeps digging. Irondome (talk) 02:58, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support site ban. I see nothing to suggest Strivingsoul has any interest in following Wikipedia's principles, either in his contributions history or this very ANI thread. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:27, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support site ban Racism is against Civility, without civility, Wikipedia would be a battleground of war and rage. As evidenced by his behaviour, I can tell that he wages frequent edit wars and does frequent personal attacks with anyone he opposes, especially Jews. I reckon that a topic ban would not stop this carnage, as one day, he could abuse us as well. A site ban should be more appropriate for him. Support per above. DSCrowned(talk) 10:49, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Digvijay411 biased editing[edit]

This user is biased towards pages such as Karanvir Bohra and even Surbhi Jyoti - they keep on adding trivial information which has been removed by other editors, get angry with users when they remove information from those page, and revert those edits, he/she is biased against pages such as Karan Singh Grover and gets information removed from the page by contacting editors such as User_talk:TheRedPenOfDoom or by directly doing so themselves, their biased editing ways is evident through this page [[62]] (talk) 10:25, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Maybe you used the wrong link; the link you posted goes to that user's entire contributions listing—but if that is what you intended to do, well, you have to give a much more specific example than that. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 00:03, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

ok give me sometime, I will show you specific examples soon, regards103.250.184.45 (talk) 04:58, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

I would also suggest that you register an account because having the same user posting from different IP addresses becomes rather confusing to other users. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 23:43, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Hello it is me! Made a username, I will show you proof soon, sorry I am busy with assignments currently, regardsA-wednesday (talk) 09:36, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Lord and Taylor COI editor - various IPs[edit] (talk · contribs) - only currently active IP, but there have been at least three others.

This is a problem brought over from WP:COIN. A series of IP editors is editing articles related to Lord & Taylor, their related companies, and their CEO. Details at Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#User: Previous WP:COIN activity: Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_91#Saks_Fifth_Avenue_marketing_team The IP editors are all SPAs, confining their edits to this family of companies. There's no declared COI, but one edit comment ([63], with comment "(redundent Information - as per request of HBC)" indicates a undeclared COI.) The edits are mostly OK, but bad news, such as store closings and poor financial performance, has been deleted, leaving only happy marketing-like talk. Edit warring warnings have been placed on the IP's talk page by various editors.[64][65]. The IP editor deletes the warnings, but does not respond. Suggest a week or two of block on the IP for now, since they won't talk to anybody. We need to get their attention. John Nagle (talk) 20:48, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

See also discussion at Talk:Saks_Fifth_Avenue#Edit-warring_by_.22SAKS_FIFTH_MARKETING_TEAM.22. What we have here is a failure to communicate. John Nagle (talk) 20:52, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Hello, this is the only notification I have regarding this matter. All edits I've listed reasons why, and the "negative" information I believe you are talking about has been transferred to the parent company's page, which was explained clearly in the reasons for editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 21:22, 6 October 2015‎
The IP just attempted to blank this discussion as well as one at Lord & Taylor, and an immediate block would appear to be in order. JohnInDC (talk) 21:39, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
  • 72 hours hardblocked for disruptive editing.
     — Berean Hunter (talk) 21:43, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
The IP editor just contacted me on my talk page. I suggested he register an account, declare a COI, and we'd go from there. About the same time, the IP editor blanked the discussion on AN/I, and was, of course, blocked for that. I see they also deleted their block notice on their talk page, which has been restored by the blocking admin. Well, we tried asking nicely first, and it didn't work. John Nagle (talk) 21:56, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
I would also suggest bringing all affected articles to WP:RPP. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 23:59, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
No unusual edits have happened on the relevant articles since the block, and the articles are now on many watchlists. I'm inclined to wait and see what happens. John Nagle (talk) 00:31, 7 October 2015 (UTC)


Kwamikagami (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) has been mass moving pages and then editing the resulting redirect page to block non-admins from moving those pages back. See here [66] for example, where he moved a page away from the common name despite two previous failed move requests (1 and 2). Given this user's history, which includes a block this March for similar undiscussed and disruptive page moves [67] (see also the archived thread) and being desysopped for move warring, I would hope the community would take some sort of corrective action. Calidum 00:03, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

I edited the pages because they had the wrong tag on them. Wasn't aware of the previous move requests, but that's just for one page. The others go into tedious detail about how the name of the article is incorrect. And the Japanese one is mistranslated. Easier just to use the correct name to begin with, and note the others. — kwami (talk) 00:09, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
"Wasn't aware of the previous move requests". Odd, considering you participated in the last one in 2011. oknazevad (talk) 00:23, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment I doubt anyone remembers every move discussion they've participated in for the last four years. That being said, Kwami needs to be more careful with regards to consensus of page moves particularly in light of the warning in March. I can't recommend a ban based on one recent example though so unless there are multiple recent problems of controversial moves, I couldn't support much more than a whaling and a reminder that we don't have deadlines. Wugapodes (talk) 01:01, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
    • He moved several other pages as well, which can be seen in his contributions. I only gave that one example because it's a topic I feel editors would be more familiar with and because the two previous move requests. While he may not remember participating in a past discussion at that page, WP:RM#TR says not to move any page as "uncontroversial" if there were any past discussions about the name, which to me means an editor should make sure there were no such discussions. If Kwami were a new user with no baggage, I'd be less concerned about his actions. He's not, however, and that's why I took this issue here. Calidum 01:12, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
      • Looking through them I didn't see any that were, on their face, as controversial as the example you listed, ie, none seemed to have old move requests. None are clearly outside policy—just imprudent, but an admonition of "be more prudent" doesn't seem satisfactory, particularly in light of the March discussion. I see a ban as too much, but a warning as too little, so I will continue to refrain from a course of action until there's further discussion. Wugapodes (talk) 02:04, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Suggestion Kwami, would you consider a self-imposed restriction not to move pages at least for a while? Less drama all around. Darx9url (talk) 03:44, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, I can do that, though I move redirects as an easy way to cover variant spellings, and I know there are people who would insist those should count as page moves. The main problem comes from the hundreds of moves I make that no-one has any problem with. I've seen discussion take three months even when no-one objects to a move. That's the main reason I just move the article -- if someone objects it can always be moved back and we save months of tedium. — kwami (talk) 04:33, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
If the concern is variant spellings and alternate names, I would recommend just creating the redirects as a new page. Otherwise there's too much potential for conflict and drama. And I'd also recommend double checking the article's talk page for any page move, in line with WP:BEFORE (which is about AFD, but is good guidance for any major article change, such as title changes). Saves everyone possible headaches. oknazevad (talk) 15:48, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I should check TALK. That's good advice. But as for creating a new page for every redirect, languages will sometimes have a dozen common alt names and spellings, and creating a dozen new pages for each of a dozen new language articles is a time-consuming pain in the ass. Much more efficient to create one and then move it to the others. And since there's no talk page, there's no worry about BEFORE. — kwami (talk) 18:51, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
It's really poor form to move a page without need. It creates all sorts of potential double redirect issues (are you manually fixing them, or letting a bot do the work?) and it's actually more of a pain in the ass (in my view) to do that instead of just copying and pasting the same #REDIRECT [[target page]] code over as many times as needed. Moving pages takes a lot more resources and should be avoided. I just don't see how that's a beneficial method for accomplishing your goals. oknazevad (talk) 21:13, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
I find it highly problematic that Kwamikagami considers discussion with other editors to be "tedium", that he thinks that he should be able to decide by himself that a title is "incorrect", and that he thinks that recommendations to do things carefully are a "time consuming pain in the ass". These statements imply that this editor thinks that he is superior to the broader Wikipedia community, and ought to be exempt from its input, and from consensus. If other editors think that I have misread the meaning of these comments, please let me know. I will reconsider. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:28, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Proposal: Page-move ban[edit]

Propose a page-move ban on Kwamikagami. Even after blocks and a desysopping for pagemoving, he doesn't get it and insists on having his own way. His extensive block log is making him look more and more WP:NOTHERE. I think he needs a ban on page moves, violation of which should result in a block. If he wants to prove that he is WP:HERE to build an encyclopedia, he can edit constructively (and collaboratively) rather than moving pages. Softlavender (talk) 07:42, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

  • Support, as proposer. Softlavender (talk) 07:42, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Support, his explanation for editing the redirect doesnt fly with me. Its obviously a blocking attempt to prevent a reversion. Were Kwami a less experienced user this might have been reasonable. Kwami however knows exactly what they are doing when they move pages. Thats why they have been sanctioned for it previously.Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:51, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose, I've had my share of disagreements with Kwami, but anything that is based on WP:NOTHERE in relation to his contributions is not something that one should get behind. —SpacemanSpiff 13:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
The proposal is based on his continuously disruptive page moves (the complaint of the filer and others), which have already warranted a desysop and a block. There needs to be some further action taken; it seems a page-move ban would be a workable solution. He can always file a WP:RM if he desires a move. Softlavender (talk) 13:53, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Bot bug with User:lowercase sigmabot III[edit]

Notice on the page Talk:J._Robert_Oppenheimer that when the archiver ran it erased a section of the talk page which is no longer present anywhere in the archives. Prior to run [68] and after run [69]. Section discussing mesons disappeared and is no longer in the Talk page or its archive. I assume this is due to a bug? Klaun (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:17, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

For starters, this should really have been sent to Σ first as the operator. Now that we're here: looks like the archived discussion wound up on another archive page. The archiving template contains the field |archive=Talk:J. Robert Oppenheimer/Archive %(counter)d, thus the bot technically put it in the correct location; it seems it is not designed to follow redirects. — Earwig talk 03:34, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
User:lowercase sigmabot III page says to report problems here. If that is incorrect then perhaps that instruction should be corrected as well. I just noticed the problem and reported it. Klaun (talk) 13:00, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Ah, right—that's more for "oh crap, the bot's breaking everything, block it immediately!" moments than "I think the bot might have a bug". — Earwig talk 14:30, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Is it? Well, great! Next time I just won't say anything at all! Trying to figure out how to get something done on Wikipedia is about on par with navigating the Byzantine bureaucracy. Keep up the good work. Klaun (talk) 22:26, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

The wording is at {{Emergency-bot-shutoff}} maybe it could be tweaked. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:21, 9 October 2015 (UTC).

Disruptive editing and page moves[edit]

Withdrawn by filer. All is well. (non-admin closure) -- Softlavender (talk) 09:40, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

NuYorkCity (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)

This editor has been here for eight days, in which time he has made 16 page moves, all (as far as I can see) adding closing parentheses to article and article talk titles. There's also a smattering of disruptive / vandalism type edits elsewhere. I can't decide whether to go to SPI (seems possibly reminiscent of Tobias Conradi) or AIV, so I've plumped for here. GoldenRing (talk) 10:24, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

@GoldenRing: I think you need to warn them on their talk page before taking the issue to ANI, perhaps using the template {{subst:uw-disruptive1}}. Thanks, Rubbish computer 15:52, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
GoldenRing, you should probably provide diffs for the supposed vandalism, but as for the page moves, well, those do seem to be rather disruptive. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 23:34, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
From my brief look through, it seemed like every contribution from this account was vandalism. On a closer look I've found one or two that might be okay, but there are a considerable number that are introducing mis-spellings; admittedly they are almost all in this user's userspace. GoldenRing (talk) 19:38, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
@GoldenRing: I can't find any cases of "adding closing parentheses to article and article talk titles" - please give an example of this. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:12, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
GoldenRing may be misreading:

Coldry process ‎ (NuYorkCity moved page Coldry Process to Coldry process)

the closing parenthesis matches the opening one before NuYorkCity. In this case the removal of the capital P is probably correct.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:25, 9 October 2015 (UTC).
Boy, do I feel stupid. I learn again to take more care while jet-lagged... Probably best to close this and move along! Apologies to NuYorkCity and everyone who's wasted time on this. GoldenRing (talk) 09:12, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Template:Corus Entertainment[edit]

I am requesting a ban for User:Spshu. This idiot has been nothing but disruptive, continually reversing edits despite them being at two levels of consensus. He has also been reversing edits at Disney XD (Canada).— Preceding unsigned comment added by MarcoPolo250 (talkcontribs) 14:32 (UTC) 7 October 2015

Please consider reading WP:BOOMERANG before continuing to personally attack your fellow users at this noticeboard. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:48, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
This is his second request at ANI over this template. In the original, he used a post by a banned user (Mdrnpndr) from the talk page that misused level of consensus concept and were no administrative action was taken. My response was that MarcoPolo indicated he did not care about sources which were in a embedded hidden comment ("Two, you indicate that you don't care one whit about sources with this edit summary: '...'Sources' be damned.)'") and that he has failed to join the discussion Template talk:Corus Entertainment#New structure except to comment on the thread, Template talk:Corus Entertainment#Consensus, that he swiped from Mdrnpndr in another thread used in that ANI report to say "I hate playing janitor. User:Spshu keeps messing things up. Ban him/her."
I have address Marco's objections in edit summary 18:20, 22 September 2015‎: "Nelvana is NOT a TV channel", changing "Cable TV/specialty channels" group name to "Cable TV divisions". He then reversed that with this edit summary: "Undid vandalism by Spshu" and today 'NELVANA. IS. NOT. A. CHANNEL."
I request a RfPP today in order to get him to join the discussion, which should have been evidently existed from my response to his previous ANI. How ever was turned down with direction to file at 3RR. Spshu (talk) 15:17, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Regarding, Disney XD, the general matter is level of sources, a primary source. ViperSnake changed it to "Television provider VMedia stated" to resolve the issue. Further edits have disconnected this and other source, forcing me to restore a correctly source version given the severity of the sourcing problem. Marco has reversed said restoration outright with no regard for the problem. Spshu (talk) 15:32, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Ivanvector in that MarcoPolo250 should watch out for the boomerang. But Marco, what exactly do you mean by "two levels of consensus"? WP:CONLEVEL doesn't refer to anything like that. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 23:29, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
It was what I stated about Mdrnpndr's post. He attempt to use IP reverts as a "level of consensus" ([[Template talk:Corus Entertainment#Consensus) to halt discussion (Template talk:Corus Entertainment#New structure) and label me as the disruptive/vandalizing editor despite have sources to support the changes. Spshu (talk) 13:37, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

New location for Cause of death vandal?[edit]

The Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Cause of death vandal usually operates from Leeds or Keighley in the UK, but two recent IPs from nearby Sale in the UK seem to be doing the same sort of stuff. Is it our old friend, or a new editor?

The Cause of death vandal was known to change infobox templates from specific ones such as musical artist to the most general one so that he could add missing parameters such as cause of death, spouse, etc. The new IP has done exactly that here and here with comedian infoboxes. Both of these Sale-based IPs are interested in UK politician bios, for instance they both touched the same biography, the second time changing the birth date away from that which is seen widely in the literature. Binksternet (talk) 19:28, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

WP:BEANS — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 21:46, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure how WP:BEANS applies here... Erpert blah, blah, blah... 23:20, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
  • But the IP was right on Edward Herrmann. Not a vandal edit. Drmies (talk) 00:18, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
    • The cause of death vandal doesn't always vandalize articles. Bizarrely, he seems to freely mix vandalism, unconstructive edits, and constructive edits. I encountered him a few times back before the LTA report was written, and I remember being perplexed because he would change sourced data to obviously incorrect data in one edit, and then do more-or-less constructive, gnomish edits a few hours later. I don't pretend to understand why. Maybe he vandalizes when he's bored or doesn't like his homework assignment. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:50, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Geolocation for UK IP addresses should always be taken with a grain of salt, they almost never resolve to the location the person actually is aside from being in the UK. You have to use country based on behavioral evidence. Keegan (talk) 03:56, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
  • What Keegan said ↑, correct as usual.--Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 16:11, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Reporting possible vandalism or bot error?[edit]

At Wikipedia:WikiProject Directory/Description/WikiProject Catholicism instead of a list of WP editors, there is this

Major General Asmerom Gerezgiher was born in Gezalamza, Eritrea. He was a founding member of the Eritrean People's Liberation Front (EPLF) in 1977. Before founding that organization he had joined the Eritrean Liberation Front (ELF) in 1966

and more....

History shows 08:27, 30 September 2015‎ Reports bot (talk | contribs)‎ . . (38,985 bytes) (+998)‎

At Reports bot, talk - it redirects to User talk:Harej instead of a bot talk page.

Help please! This is way beyond anything that I could fix with an easy Undo. Is this vandalism or a bot malfunction?

Regards (WP Catholicism member), JoeHebda (talk) 11:47, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

It was because of this edit -- Finlay McWalterTalk 11:58, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

IPs substituting file deletion templates[edit]

Recently, some IPs have been substituting file deletion templates and then often changing the {{imbox}} style so that the border colour is incorrect. See discussions at User talk: and User talk: User talk: has now started with the same practice. The IP addresses look similar, so they could all belong to the same person. Not sure what to do here. It is inappropriate to substitute the templates and change how they look as other users are likely to overlook the deletion templates that way.

Note that a few of the files have since been deleted, so some of the substitutions are now only visible to admins. --Stefan2 (talk) 12:10, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for raising this, Although I'm not sure what sort of input you want given that I only put the original tag on the images concerned, and made some reverts in good faith, I don't know why anyone would want to subst them. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 12:14, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
It wasn't just the border colour. In the case of (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · edit filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) they were also altering the wording, either to soften the message, remove certain phrases or sentences, or to negate part of the message. --Redrose64 (talk) 12:33, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Sockpuppet creation bot?[edit]

If you look at the log for edit filter 527, you will see that somebody (or more likely, some bot) has been pumping out sockpuppet accounts for the past 24 hours. It gets in 6 at a time and then keeps trying unsuccessfully until someone (presumably) resets its IP and it does 6 more. I've blocked over 50 so far. The naming pattern is obvious. I've posted this at WP:SPI, but wanted to see if anyone here had any insights. NawlinWiki (talk) 14:02, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

To be honest, NawlinWiki, I don't know where to look to see what's going on...can you provide a link to point me in the right direction? Thanks. Liz Read! Talk! 21:03, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
[70]. Someguy1221 (talk) 21:20, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
We could set an EF to deny, as a temporary measure, more than 1, 2 or 3 account creations in a short period. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:04, 9 October 2015 (UTC).
Indeed with that naming pattern we can be even more robust. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:17, 9 October 2015 (UTC).

Threatening and discriminatory attitude from an editor[edit]

I've reverted the personal attack made by SegataSanshiro1. They weren't blocked at the SPI. Before they are blocked as a result of their belligerence here, I'm closing this thread.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:48, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have been personally threatened by DaltonCastle, firstly by opening an [71] into sockpuppetry with no evidence and then harassing a moderator into divulging personal information about me despite there being no connection between myself and this other editor the user has been historically involved in conflicts with. Similarly, it has been insinuated that I have connections with a corrupt government simply for making edits attempting to prevent possible defamation, POV-pushing and serious breaches of Wikipedia's guidelines on a BLP this user created, while my (very modest and helpful) edits to this page are what seems to have set this user off on this tirade.

Using such mob-style threats to dissuade editors from making helpful edits has no place here and I find it deeply distressing that this occurs on Wikipedia. Furthermore, I feel increasingly discriminated against based on my nationality as this user appears to have personal antagonisms against people from Argentina. SegataSanshiro1 (talk) 17:51, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

LOL! this is absurd. "set this user off on this tirade"?? "Personally threatened"???? I cant stress enough that this had nothing to do with you. Checkuser findings could have found information on any other editor. The admin said nothing on Wikipedia about what he found interesting. They also said nothing about it being related to you.
Remember when we both told each other to let the issue go? And you clearly have not. This is your last warning. Drag me through this again and Im reporting you for WP:Hounding. DaltonCastle (talk) 20:35, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
To be clear, here is what the admin said that peaked my interest: "Frankly, I'm a bit confused when I trace the history of this case from its inception to the present, not just my own direct involvement, but that of other CheckUsers. I'm reluctant to say what confuses me, so I'll leave it at that." This refers to so much more than SegataSanshiro. Other users, CheckUsers, possibly other admins.. Its frustrating that SegataSanshiro did not see past this and assumed I had malicious intentions against him. DaltonCastle (talk) 20:41, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
Well, if it's not about SegataSanshiro1, DaltonCastle, can you agree to give each other a lot of room, not follow each other's contributions and generally ignore each other from here on out? And by dropping the stick, that also means an end to bringing complaints about each other to noticeboards, article talk pages and user talk pages. This will only work if you both agree to put this SPI in the past and move on. Liz Read! Talk! 21:01, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
Done. DaltonCastle (talk) 21:46, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Harassment on user talk page[edit]

No admin action called for. The notices are informative and not harassment. HighInBC 01:31, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I feel that an editor has been harassing me on my Talk page (see Ahmed Mohamed), following a revert I made of an edit of his [72]. Can I get any help regarding this? --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:21, 8 October 2015 (UTC) (The editor has been notified of this discussion [73]. --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:24, 8 October 2015 (UTC))

It's standard practice for editors to drop a warning about active discretionary sanctions. This should not be seen as harassment as the DS warning templates can be somewhat confusing to use and every arbitration case that results in discretionary sanctions has its own template. MarkBernstein was acting in good faith when he attempted to notify you of the American Politics arbitration case. I'll go see if ArbCom levied DS's on that case. Blackmane (talk) 22:43, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
I see that MarkBernstein was able to find the DS templates relating to American Politics. Extra comment DS warnings are given to editors who edit in topics where DS have been authorised. It's more of a friendly warning so you won't inadvertently violate the sanctions and get yourself into hot water. Blackmane (talk) 22:45, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks but this editor essentially admitted that his templating wasn't friendly, "OK, I was trying to be friendly and informal. As that’s apparently unwelcome, I'll just use the template."[74] --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:53, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
Bob, I haven't looked at the whole picture and there may be a DE complaint in there somewhere, but with respect I don't see a harasssment grievance. Harassment generally implies a pattern beyond five user talk posts in two days, I think, and unfriendliness doesn't violate WP:CIVIL. It's also possible the posts have some merit, as I said I haven't looked further into it. If a few user talk posts tick you off, delete them, shrug them off, and move on. ―Mandruss  00:12, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
I don't think it would be good for Wikipedia to condone the editor's behavior by not taking any official action. I'm not looking for some major disciplining, but just something official that lets the editor know that he did something wrong. For example, an administrator could redact the template-placing edits from the history of my Talk page, along with the administrator posting a message on that editor's Talk page. Note that on the template's page is the following,[75] "Alerts are a neutral courtesy; never use them to intimidate, coerce, or shame another editor."
Oh, I just noticed that this editor has a history of being blocked, including for "personal attacks or harassment".[76] --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
The purpose was to prove you were aware of the sanctions. Their block log is not relevant. You are now aware of the sanctions. We are not going to redact them from the history because their purpose is to sit in the history as proof you are aware.
Your quote above trying to prove they were being unfriendly is silly. They tried to tell you in a less formal tone, you demanded formal evidence, you got the formal template. HighInBC 00:51, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
As a further point, MarkBernstein was obviously trying to follow the example set out in WP:DTTR as you have been here for a number of years. Templating is usually reserved for newer editors. MarkBernstein explicitly states that "One of these days, I've got to learn to use the templates" indicating that they are not familiar with the ArbCom templates. You then totally jumped the shark with a link to [{WP:HARASS]] when no harassment had occurred. No administrative action, let alone even a warning, is warranted in this case. You edited an article that fell within [WP:NEWBLPBAN] and [WP:ARBAP2], you were given standard notification concerning these two Arbitration Cases. This is a courtesy. Blackmane (talk) 01:08, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
I think these are very poor responses, that frankly don't deserve more attention from me. I think you're doing Wikipedia a disservice. Anyhow, I've had enough of this. --Bob K31416 (talk) 01:21, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Repeated disruptions and extreme WP:NPA violations.[edit]

Blocked 2 days by Bishonen --NeilN talk to me 22:38, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User Gabby Merger seems to go after anyone who dares to challenge their WP:POV. I came across the user when they inserted fringe claims about The Exodus. PiCo and I objected to inserting these religious fringe claims, but the user edit warred actively to keep them in [77], [78], [79], [80]. I informed the user about WP:BRD and WP:3RR, encouraging them to use talk[81]. Even their first comment on talk was mainly a WP:NPA violation against PiCo [82] though mild compared to other attacks. This comment [83] was 100% directed at insulting me, with no intent to discuss the article. The user has a very long history of personal attacks against any user who dares to cross them. Some examples, most of them dating back less than an hour.

  • I'll follow you around and second-guess everything you do, and see how you like it (you definitely won't, and I definitely will...sauce for the goose [84] (Against Jeffro77).
  • You seem to many times get arrogant, disingenuous, uncivil, jerky, rude, dishonest, unfair, and selective in your analysis. [85] (Against BlackCab).
  • don't puke any more rude idiocy to me again [86] (Against BlackCab).
  • Check your own demented and obsessed rude and arrogant goofy self, sonny. [87] (Against BlackCab).
  • I'll be very apt in showing your hypocrisy, assuming bad faith, whines, ignorance, disrespect, disregard, and general incivility and bloviating. [88] (Against me)
  • You have zero credibility therefore, and are irrelevant yourself. [89] (Against BlackCab, though on my talk).
  • I stay away from blackcab because he's a toxic and venomous and extremely uncivil [90] Against BlackCab, on my talk).
  • you're childish and biased [91]) (Against me)
  • BlackCab neurotically decided to chime in bad-faith garbage a stalker and troll. [92] Against BlackCab, on my talk).
  • He has glaring double standards and incivility and bad faith attitudes and violations. (Against me).

Again, I'm sure there are many more examples if one checks, this long is just what I've seen in the last hours, mainly on my own talk and what BlackCap informed me about. Looking at these quotes from Gabby Merger, I think they make a very convincing case that the user is repeatedly violating WP:NPA and is WP:NOTHERE to contribute. Jeppiz (talk) 22:27, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Jezz has been on the article talk page, accusing and insulting. Also what do you think about this? Something no one else that I ever encountered on Wikipedia in my life. Jezz actually removed whole chunks of sentences from my comment on the Talk page, that he didn't like said about him, which was in response to insulting stuff he wrote about ME on the very same talk page. He undid part of my comment on the talk page. In total violation of Wikipedia guidelines. So he can write disrespectful negative things about someone on a talk page, accusing and abusing, but God forbid someone responds and says anything negative about him??!! He has glaring double standards and incivility and bad faith attitudes and violations. (And yes, wrongly putting additional jabs on my own talk page, beyond just a "3RR warning". But a hypocritical "I'll report you if you say not nice things about my on the article talk page" comment, though he has said VERY insulting things about me on the article talk page. Can dish out but can't take it. I do NOT have this same issue with the Doug Weller and the other contributor there, you'll notice.) But he removed whole sentences of my comment on the talk page, that he didn't like. Unbelievable. He has glaring double standards and incivility and bad faith attitudes and violations. (Also, I am careful not to violate 3RR.m And I've been discussing copiously, and this editor says I have ignored "Bold Revert Discuss" when that's all I've been doing for hours.) Please check out the stuff on the article TALK page. Not just edits and edit comments. Thanks. Regards.... Gabby Merger (talk) 22:29, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I did undo one comment by Gabby Merger on talk, as per WP:SOAP and WP:NPA as it was exclusively about me, not a word about the article of how to improve it. If an admin feels the comment belongs, they are of course free to reinstate it. Jeppiz (talk) 22:32, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Possible legal threat[edit]

Is this a legal threat? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:13, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't cross the line in my opinion, as it requires assuming facts not in evidence. I would hate to see such a lawsuit, too. ―Mandruss 
I think if you look at the comment in context, Mandruss, things are a little murkier. The account making that comment is almost certainly a shill for Atlantic International University, which gives the comment a whole, "would be a shame if something happened to this nice little website of yours", sort of vibe. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:24, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
I read it the same way Someguy did(It would be a shame...) I think it is meant to have a chilling effect and adversely effects our neutral point of view. HighInBC 00:26, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
I don't doubt the motive, I'm just unclear as to how explicit a threat has to be. If we consider context, I sit corrected. ―Mandruss  00:31, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Given the link provided by Mandruss DrFleischman and this post it is clear this person is trying to use the law as a tool of intimidation to adversely effect our neutral point of view. I have blocked for legal threats on that basis.

If they agree not to argue content disputes with legal "warnings" I will gladly consider the block to be no longer preventative and reverse it. I am happy for a review of this block an will abide by whatever consensus decides. HighInBC 00:32, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

For clarity, I think you meant the link provided by Dr. Fleischman. ―Mandruss  00:36, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, I looked at the wrong sig. HighInBC 00:38, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Prague astronomical clock[edit]

Prague astronomical clock is (one of) today's Google Doodles. It attracted me to that page, so a few eyes may be needed today. 220 of Borg 02:08, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Google Doodle in Australia, New Zealand, UK (and elsewhere) that is, but not USA, as I assumed, if anyone was wondering what I was talking about.[93]. 220 of Borg 02:16, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

User:LilDennie Wikipedia (talk - contribs)[edit]

Despite any warning and a block in September, after this report, this user continues to contribute in write-only, creating non notable pages deleted more times. Wuchoo Know was created 3 times in 4 days (please note: with no meaningful content), and few days after, he/she created Wuchoo Know (Nicki Minaj song), deleted in semptember and created again yesterday (see AFD page). Other creations include U Got What I Need, the nonsense Template:PIOTL, Black Friday: Kimmie Blanco Reloaded, Kimmie Blanco Reloaded. Other edits, few days ago, includes lots of rollbacked contribs (ex.: [94], [95], [96], [97] etc), and other. So, with more than 20 warning notices, 2 blocks (user is now blocked for a week), all ignored, he/she continues in write-only and, also after the 5th creation of "Wuchoo Know", it looks like clear vandalism, IMHO. I request an indef ban per WP:NOTHERE and persistent vandalism. Regards.--Dэя-Бøяg 03:47, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I would support an indef given the user's edit history. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 04:34, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
I'd also support and indefinite ban, the user removed the AfD notice from Wuchoo Know (Nicki Minaj song) a total of six times (1, 2, 3, 4, 5 6) without even contributing to the discussion, even though they were appropriately warned each time. This, along with their hoax articles Black Friday: Kimmie Blanco Reloaded, Kimmie Blanco Reloaded shows that their not here to improve the site at all. Azealia911 talk 13:40, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive interactions by User:MusicAngels[edit]

User indef blocked by JzG. (non-admin closure) -- Softlavender (talk) 11:07, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

MusicAngels (talk · contribs) is very disruptive in their interactions with other editors who disagree with them. I solicit the community's opinion what to do about this editor: possibly a community warning or ban, if that is possible, that prevents them from commenting on other editors; possibly a block, since their disruptive activity is still ongoing, with the latest example being today (Oct. 8).

Their most troublesome action is accusing editors who disagree with them of vandalism, trolling, and sockpuppetry; pursuing those accusations for weeks in multiple venues; and continuing to pursue them even after the allegations have been disproven. Other problematic actions include: removing other people's comments from article talk pages; telling IP editors they must register an account; misquoting Wikipedia policy to tell other users what to do or not to do; and making false statements. See details below.

Previous appearances at Wikipedia discussion boards:

  • ANI, August 24, 2015 MA filed an ANI report against another editor, alleging "vandalism" because the other editor was removing links that MA added. The result was that MA was told the removals were not vandalism but valid cleanup, and they should have a civil discussion with the other user about it.
  • Talk:AN, August 26 An IP user complained at WT:AN about MA's actions at articles created by MA, saying that they have "refused to allow editing, has labeled all editing vandalism, and disallowed any conversation." That discussion was never closed, but Bgwhite (talk · contribs) noted that despite being told at the previous ANI to stop battling over their content dispute with the other editor, MA continued adding the disputed links. User:Bgwhite also called attention to copyright problems identified at MA's articles by MusikAnimal (talk · contribs); those issues were seconded by other admins and eventually led to MA's articles being deleted.
  • DRV, Septemer 3: After MA's article Poetry in the early 21st century was deleted for copyright violations, MA filed a DRV, claiming that the article had been deleted because of a "hoax" of "false copyright reports" made by a "disruptive IP hopping editor". (It looks to me as if the copyright problems had been discovered entirely by admins, including MusikAnimal and Bgwhite; see MA's talk page and the WT:AN report.) The consensus at the DRV was to endorse the deletion and reaffirm that the article had been a copyvio. Afterward, however, MA continued in other discussions to claim the deletion had been the result of a "hoax".[98] [99]
  • ANEW, September 23: An IP reported MA to ANEW for edit warring; MA's response was to label the report a personal attack and imply socking by the complainer. Both users were warned and the page was full-protected.

Disruptive editing I have observed:

  • Accusing and hounding other editors
    • I first became aware of MA when I was asked (by both the IP and MA) to look at MA's interaction with an IP editor whom MA was calling an IP-hopping troll. This was the user that had reported MA to WT:AN and to WP:ANEW. I discovered that MA kept re-adding that description, "IP-hopping troll accounts", to the IP's talk page after the IP removed it. MA re-added it four times by my count; see the history. I warned MA they were violating WP:NPA as well as WP:NOBAN and threatened to block them if they kept harassing the editor, and they stopped doing that. Meanwhile, still targeting that same IP user, MA launched a campaign to get a rangeblock against 192-range addresses and asked for a checkuser investigation and action from various admins: me, EdJohnston (talk · contribs), and SilkTork (talk · contribs). At EdJohnston's talk page, MA claimed that the 192 accounts were tracking MA's edits and accusing MA of things;[100] this turned out to be untrue. MA actually had been subjected to some trolling by accounts in the 128 range, and MA had worked with EdJohnston to try to get a block of that range. But a simple check of their contributions showed that the IPs on the 192-range list had no connection with each other; most of them had not edited in years. The IPs, except for the sole active editor on the list - the IP that MA had been targeting - also had no connection with MusicAngels. The evidence that this list was not a sockfarm was clearly laid out at EdJohnston's talk page. Ignoring that evidence, MA then took the list to a third admin, SilkTork, asking for a checkuser of the 192 range list and claiming again that it represented an IP-hopping troll.
    • Several editors have posted at my talk page, or at MA's talk page, saying they are afraid to edit any article where MA is involved because of MA's "seeking revenge long after anything happens that offends them", "vindictive editing", etc.
  • Removing other people's comments from article talk pages: Discussed here (note that MusicAngel later changed the section heading from the original "STOP DELETING TALK" to "IP editor identified for vandalism by three separate bots"). The removals being talked about were at the now deleted page Talk:Poetry in the early 20th century; MA justified the removals on the grounds that they were from an IP and were not properly formatted.
  • Trying to force IP editors to register an account. Example: [101], reprimanded by MusikAnimal [102]
  • Misquoting Wikipedia policy to tell other users what to do or not to do
    • Ordering an IP editor to reveal their registered username, and telling them they must not edit until they did so; this was a direct violation of WP:LOGOUT. [103] [104] [105]
    • At the articles James D. Corrothers and Cordelia Ray, MA reverted a sourced addition, citing BRD and claiming that the person should have obtained consensus at the talk page before inserting it, which violates the principle of WP:BOLD.[106] [107] The other person offered sources at the talk page, but MA ignored the sources and did not discuss the content, instead continuing to insist that the other editor follow BRD, even while the other user actually WAS trying to discuss.
  • Making false statements.
    • False edit summaries, such as a claim that re-adding the controversial link to their own article was "requested" or "had consensus with another editor", which was not true.[108] [109] [110]
    • The 192-range IP editor (the one MA kept calling an IP-hopping troll) said their address was the guest sign-in address of "a Maryland-area university".[111] MusicAngels told EdJohnston that the IP was from the University of Maryland.[112] Just a few hours later they said at my talk page that the IP was from Johns Hopkins.[113]
  • Final straw as far as I am concerned: Today, October 8, MusicAngels posted a "who is it?" type comment on their own talk page, asking for help in identifying a couple of IP editors.[114] This looks like yet another attempt to "out" IP editors, even though WP policy on that subject had been explained to them several times. But what really brought me to the point of ANI: They posted the comment on October 8, but they falsified the timestamp to make it look as if they posted it on August 24! I had been waiting to see if they would learn from the various conversations and warnings they have received from multiple people. This last little act of deception, in connection with yet another attempt to "out" IP editors, convinced me that they have not learned anything and the community may need to step in. I do not wish to take any action myself because I could be considered WP:INVOLVED. --MelanieN (talk) 05:23, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Holy mackerel, that's a heck of a lot of disruptive and deceptive and against-policy behavior, and a heck of a lot of admin posts to their talk page, for an account not even 7 months old. I think this looks like a definite WP:NOTHERE block. Softlavender (talk) 05:53, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
I'll have to agree with MelanieN's assessment, and that further action is necessary. I was not aware of the half of what has been presented above. I was under the impression the user suffered general incompetence and/or inability to get the point, but it looks like there's more behavioural concerns. The deceptive timestamp is baffling. I was trying to think of how a script might have malfunctioned but I can't come up with a good theory. MusicAngels anything to comment on that in particular? MusikAnimal talk 06:02, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Yikes. That looks bad, I would like to see the user give an account of xyrself, in the mean time I have blocked for disruptive editing. Guy (Help!) 10:53, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Kim Davis[edit]

We have a recent RfC which I closed as providing clear support for one article on the ongoing Kentucky same-sex marriage brouhaha. We currently have:

It's not clear if the lawsuit is covered by the RfC, I would argue that it is since it is all one event. There's a move debate underway at the Kim Davis article, aimed at settling the question of whether the merged article should be presented as a biography or as an article on the event. I am persuaded that the event is the right answer, as is Jimbo according to comments on his talk page, but there is a lot of passion here for keeping it as a bio, for whatever reason.

I think some additional admin eyes are needed, to guide the process. A history merge of the three (or at least the first two) might be appropriate. Guy (Help!) 10:47, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Violation of 1RR on Levant by Debresser[edit]

Here Debresser reverted my edit, re-instating a claim not supported by sources. Here the user removed the {{cn}} tag I placed on the unsupported claim. The two reverts happened within 40 minutes, on an article that clearly falls under WP:ARBPIA.

I pinged the user on the talk page and explained the problem with the content they restored, but got no response so far. WarKosign 10:52, 9 October 2015 (UTC)