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Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution and get assistance to the right place; request for comment, mediation or other noticeboard, if involving other issues. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button Button rediriger.png to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember guidelines and policy when discussing issues. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.

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The current co-ordinator is Steven Zhang (talk · contribs · email).

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Case Created Last volunteer edit Last modified
Title Status User Time User Time User Time
Talk:Liverpool F.C.–Manchester United F.C. rivalry#Honours Count? 4Needs Attention Chrisuae (t) 11 days, 10 hours North of Eden (t) 9 hours North of Eden (t) 9 hours
Talk:MLS Soccer Sunday#July 2015: This article needs additional citations for verification. 1New Mikeylito (t) 5 days, 3 hours MrScorch6200 (t) 20 hours MrScorch6200 (t) 20 hours
Melbourne 2In Progress Ashton 29 (t) 4 days, 3 hours Robert McClenon (t) 5 hours Robert McClenon (t) 5 hours
Talk:Royce Gracie#Royce Gracie_BJJ_matches 7Closed SubSeven (t) 3 days, 6 hours MrScorch6200 (t) 20 hours MrScorch6200 (t) 20 hours
Talk:Zindagi (TV channel)#Moving_forward 1New Manoflogan (t) 3 days, 2 hours TransporterMan (t) 17 hours TransporterMan (t) 17 hours
Talk:Zourafa 7Closed Gts-tg (t) 2 days, 9 hours BlusterBlaster (t) 1 days, 15 hours BlusterBlaster (t) 1 days, 15 hours
Talk:Grand Slam_Championship#Section_removal 7Closed Ranze (t) 1 days, 18 hours TransporterMan (t) 17 hours TransporterMan (t) 17 hours
User talk:RobertACavendish#Republic of Aquitaine 1New WikiDan61 (t) 1 days, 11 hours TransporterMan (t) 16 hours TransporterMan (t) 16 hours
Talk:Statewide opinion_polling_for_the_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_2016#Fix_the_map 1New Prcc27 (t) 3 hours None n/a Prcc27 (t) 3 hours
Talk:Ubiquinol#Therapeutic Uses of Ubiquinol 1New Committed molecules (t) 12 minutes None n/a Committed molecules (t) 12 minutes
Last updated by DRN clerk bot (talk) at 08:00, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


Contents

Current disputes[edit]

Talk:Liverpool F.C.–Manchester United F.C. rivalry#Honours Count?[edit]

Pictogram voting wait red.png – Needs attention.
Filed by Chrisuae on 21:12, 19 July 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

There is a table in the article in the Football rivalry section that was un-referenced and disagreed with other sources. I added references to football governing bodies FIFA and UEFA, plus the official Liverpool FC and Manchester United websites and some major media sites and mentioned the subtle differences of opinion on these sites. I believe this removed the bias inherent in the article.

User PeeJay2K3 disagreed and reverted the edits with different reasons each time. I attempted to address these reasons on the talk page and received 3rd party backing for using FIFA and UEFA as references.

In the latest change, the user has removed these references and reverted to the original table but added citations to the official club websites that do not match its content. References to FIFA, UEFA and major media sites were removed as was the paragraph mentioning the subtle differences in their data.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have attempted to address the concerns of the other user regarding formatting while still maintaining neutral and factual language and the references.

How do you think we can help?

Please provide guidance on the use of FIFA, UEFA and the official club websites as valid references. Also provide guidance on the use of the paragraph mentioning the subtle differences in the data provided by these sources.

Summary of dispute by PeeJay2K3[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The original table may have been unreferenced, but now it is not. I firmly believe that objections were raised to the original table because it happened to place Manchester United ahead of Liverpool in terms of the number of honours the two clubs have won. Other editors have attempted to modify this by arbitrarily deciding that some honours are "major" and others not, picking and choosing from various sources such that their POV appears to be supported. As I have stated on the article talk page, different sources consider different competitions "major" and "minor", some do not distinguish at all. I even provided a source that accurately reflected the article as it was before this lame dispute started. But apparently the idea that Manchester United is a more successful club than Liverpool is one that some people just can't handle. – PeeJay 21:23, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Further minor addition: I also believe that this article is not the place to determine the major/minor nature of any competitions. If such categorisation must take place, it should be done at a WikiProject-wide level, not just this one article. – PeeJay 21:25, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Autonova[edit]

For simplicity, the question boils down to: which edit is more comprehensive, neutral, and beneficial to the article? This one, which is supported by Chrisuae and myself: [1], or the article's current state, which is supported by PeeJay. Autonova (talk) 22:19, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Liverpool F.C.–Manchester United F.C. rivalry#Honours Count?|Honours count? discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer note - There has been extended discussion at the article talk page, so that this issue does appear to be ripe for moderated discussion. I am neither accepting nor declining this case. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:25, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

24 hr closing notice[edit]

  • This case has been inactive for almost seven days. It also seems that talk page discussion stopped around five days ago. @Chrisuae, PeeJay2K3, and Autonova: Is this still an active dispute? If not, this case will be closed in 24 hours. Regards, Scorch (talk | ctrb) 20:21, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
User:MrScorch6200 Yes this is still active. Two of us agree on an edit, one of us does not and continually reverts our edit and ignores our discussion. So we need input from a third party. Autonova (talk) 22:04, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I refuse to engage further in this debate without third-party mediation. – PeeJay 23:05, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
It's not really a debate if the other party ignores the majority of the points and shapeshifts their argument. Autonova (talk) 00:03, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
@MrScorch6200, PeeJay2K3, and Autonova:A neutral mediator would be appreciated. The current state of the article is biased. It contains a table that accurately references a single source (BBC) and inaccurately references the two clubs involved. The edits that Autonova and I support use the most authoritative football sources available: FIFA and UEFA in addition to accurately referencing the two clubs and the BBC and other media sources. There is some variance in the data presented by these sources and this was noted in detail in the edits using very neutral language while using the sources in order of prominence. Unfortunately, the edits immediately get reverted without a valid reason provided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrisuae (talkcontribs)
  • I would be happy to assist with mediating this dispute starting tomorrow. I have some real life matters to attend to first, then will get up to speed with this dispute and hope to get things moving ASAP. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 03:22, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks a lot, North of Eden. Autonova (talk) 12:03, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
  • As a preliminary matter, I agree with PeeJay that this isn't the place to determine what awards are "minor" or "major". I am far from an expert on these things, and such decisions are best left to the relevant WikiProject. That said, this issue isn't the crux of the dispute. As I see it, we should try to reach an outcome where the table's content reflects the most reliable and independent sources available. Just so things are clear, PeeJay, what is your position on the independence/relability of the FIFA and UEFA sources? Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 20:20, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Talk:MLS Soccer Sunday#July 2015: This article needs additional citations for verification.[edit]

Pictogram voting comment.png – This request has been placed on hold.
Filed by Mikeylito on 05:08, 26 July 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

There is a disagreement about the use of date formats in the article.

I'm also not happy with the tone of the talk page discussion. I feel it was less than civil.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Once I was clear on what required cleanup, I went and resolved the issues with one exception which I addressed on the talk page. However, with explanation, I did revert the dates to dmy format as I originally posted the article.

How do you think we can help?

I am seeking additional opinions on what took place on this incident. I'm particularly disturbed because rather than explaining my original question on the talk page, the other editor just made wholesale changes without continuing the talk page discussion.

Summary of dispute by Walter Görlitz[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The subjects, both the league and networks, are American and so should use MDY per WP:STRONGNAT. That's the format I applied: mdy. WP:DATERET takes a back seat to STRONGNAT as is seen from the second sentence of DATERET.

As for civility, my tagging of the whole article was questioned so I removed the general tag and tagged specific sentences. I was then questioned as to why I changed date format and a lengthy response was made, which showed what I believed to be a misunderstanding of the MoS. I simply responded that STRONGNAT applied, as it does. No insulting. No edit warring. No incivility.

I made no wholesale changes and I did continue talk page discussion. I made three explained changes:

  1. per WP:INFOBOXFLAG, WP:OVERLINK and WP:REPEATLINK
  2. General formatting by script which is essentially MOS:TIME and WP:DATERANGE
  3. Added {{refimprove}} tag to article (TW)

Only after these changes were made did discussion start on talk page. I then changed the general tag to specific ones as described above, and realizing that the date format was wrong for the subject, applied the correct date format. I read the lecture incorrectly asserting DATERET and replied, then MDY again . I'd be happy to see revert whatever wholesale changes I made without discussing after I see what they are.

I don't understand any of the complaints. I would suggest complainant read WP:OWN. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:41, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Talk:MLS Soccer Sunday#July 2015: This article needs additional citations for verification. discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • The Manual of Style is pretty clear on which date format to use. "Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking country should generally use the date format most commonly used in that nation. For the United States this is, for example, July 4, 1976; for most other nations it is, for example, 4 July 1976." As MLS is an American league, the MoS is pretty clear to use 'month day, year' here. Scorch (talk | ctrb) 06:27, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
  • @Mikeylito: Firstly, this noticeboard cannot discuss the conduct of another user. It is possible that user:Walter Görlitz was incivil during the talk page discussion, but we cannot address conduct here. We will only address the content dispute. A good place to go for incivility during a discussion is ANI. Now, for a chance to reiterate here and explain a bit further, why do you feel that dmy should appply over mdy? Scorch (talk | ctrb) 20:14, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
  •  Volunteer note: I'm going to go ahead and place this case on hold until Mikeylito returns. He hasn't edited in some days. Regards, Scorch (talk | ctrb) 03:26, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

48 hr closing notice[edit]

  • I'm going to close this dispute in 48hrs if Mikeylito does not respond. Regards, Scorch (talk | ctrb) 11:16, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Melbourne[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Ashton 29 on 04:20, 27 July 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

I have constantly tried to come to a resolution regarding a Melbourne, Australia infobox montage. The current one has a skyline photo that is far too dark and busy to be compressed into a tiny montage, not to mention it's a decade old. Secondly, I have tried numerous times to meet a compromise with a particular editor (User:HappyWaldo) about changing it, but he promotes the belief that there's nothing wrong with the current one. I like change, particularly if it involves resolving problems. I have a problem that the current montage is outdated, and that there needs to be a bit of variation in what it depicts.

I came to Wikipedia believing it was a collaborative effort where every edit is welcome, within reason and so long as the edits improved the article or added something relevant. But HappyWaldo very often disputes and reverts changes I make, making things a bit uninviting. He seems to like to promote discussion, suggesting that I should "take it to the Talk page", yet every time I do this, he's the only one with a problem about my changes. Other editors seem to be okay with the montage proposals I've made.

I just added my montage into the page, but I assume he will revert it sometime soon.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I've taken the discussion to the talk page. Asked for his reasoning on why there's a problem with my edits (his complaints are always arbitrary and incidental criticisms like "it's too stretched", it's an "awkward angle", etc.) Mostly subjective criticisms, as criticism usually is by nature.

How do you think we can help?

I think you can decide yourselves which montage you think suits this article on the basis of how contemporary the images are (Melbourne's skyline is changing dramatically, which is why I introduced a new skyline panorama), how inviting and attractive it makes the city seem, what it depicts (the aerial of the stadium was my idea, he initially opposed it, and the image of the parklands has also been opposed by him, yet I think it's crucial because Melbourne's well known for its greenery.

Summary of dispute by HappyWaldo[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

"HappyWaldo very often disputes and reverts changes I make" As I reminded Ashton on the Melbourne talk page: "... you've changed and added more images on the Melbourne page than any other user. Count them. The idea that there's some kind of unspoken policy of 'stagnancy', or that I'm out to revert all your edits, is simply not true." This went unacknowledged. I have tried complimenting Ashton on some of his work on the Melbourne page in an attempt to encourage him and build cordial relations, but this also went unacknowledged.

"... he's the only one with a problem about my changes. Other editors seem to be okay with the montage proposals I've made." It's clear from the Melbourne talk page that users YuMaNuMa, Brycehughes, HiLo48 and Elekhh oppose your image changes. The only user to support one of your montage proposals is Saruman-the-white. I have probably been more persistent than anyone in opposing some of your edits to the Melbourne page for reasons stated in edit summaries and on the talk page. Why? Someone has to. I don't want to see another article fall into disrepair.

"... the aerial of the stadium was my idea, he initially opposed it" My initial response: "The proposed MCG image isn't bad. I'm all for changing the montage if better images can be found." It is Elekhh who opposed (and still opposes) the aerial shot of the MCG. I added the aerial shot to the current montage in an attempt to appease Ashton. My arguments for the current montage and against Ashton's proposals are all on the Melbourne talk page and in edit summaries. I have only ever asked for discussions per WP:BRD. - HappyWaldo (talk) 05:48, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

These editors have opposed other changes, namely the Housing in Melbourne image, not the infobox montage. Ashton 29 (talk) 03:28, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
HiLo48 and Elekhh have opposed your montages (here, here). The total opposition to your housing images is pertinent because it shows how far back this goes. - HappyWaldo (talk) 03:48, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by YuMaNuMa[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Brycehughes[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by HiLo48[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Elekhh[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Ashton 29 has been for long pursuing changes to images in Melbourne related articles. At times this went unopposed, but many other times he/she persisted despite opposing arguments. At times sock-puppets were used. In the current dispute Ashton 29 seems to ignore arguments by others, and not following WP:CIVIL in his interaction with User:HappyWaldo. When proposing changes, claims regarding the qualities of the alternative images are often inconsistent. For example it is argued that the skyline needs to be changed because it is already '8 years old' although earlier the argument was that Federation Square shouldn't be included because 'has only been around since 2002'. The skyline image is apparently too dark, but in one of the proposals another dark sunset image was added.

While probably everyone agrees that there cannot be a perfect montage that shows all key aspects of a city, a consensus is hard to reach when arguments are ignored, and when multiple issues are conflated, such as the (1) content of the montage (what is being represented), (2) the particular perspective chosen to show a building and (3) the quality of the image. I suggest discussing these one-by-one could help find consensus. --ELEKHHT 04:38, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Saruman-the-white[edit]

I am not a resident of Melbourne, so you might say that I am less 'emotionally invested' in this debate, however it also gives me the perspective of an objective outsider who has visited the city on many occasions. The reason for my supporting Ashton's proposal is that, from my perspective, the current montage does not even begin to do the city justice. The skyline photo, which is the most important photo in the entire article, is completely dark and indistinct. It could be a picture of any skyline at night, and it does not show anything of the geography and landscape of the city, or even any detail of the attractive and quite distinctive high rise buildings on the skyline. In short, I could not think of a skyline photo that does a worse job of showcasing the city's distinctive, recognisable skyline. Even an outsider from Brisbane like myself knows that the most recognisable view is that taken from Williamstown, for example. In addition to this, the remaining photos are largely dull and uninspired. Ashton's proposal makes use of better photographs than those that currently exist.--Saruman-the-white (talk) 08:47, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Melbourne discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer note - On the one hand, there has been extended discussion on the talk page, going back almost a year, some of the discussion being recent, so that the dispute is ripe for resolution. On the other hand, in view of the nature of the dispute, which appears to have to do with an image rather than text, a Request for Comments is probably in order. The role of a moderator might be to assist in preparing the RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:48, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Opening statement by moderator[edit]

I am willing to take this case as volunteer moderator if the editors are agreeable to settling the dispute over what image to use via a Request for Comments, with my own role being facilitating the posting of the RFC. If multiple editors do not want an RFC used, then I will withdraw as moderator and request that a different moderator take the case. Are the editors willing to rely on an RFC? If so, there will be brief discussion of what images to use in the RFC, followed by the actual RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:37, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

The infobox has a montage of six images. The first one, of the Melbourne City Centre, appears to be the focus of the dispute. Are there other images in the montage that are also questioned? Can the editors provide links to alternate montages that they would like included in the RFC? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:30, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Just this one, as far as alternate montages go: File:Melbourne montage 6.jpg. I am willing to have an RFC. Ashton 29 (talk) 03:31, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
I only saw two proposed image montages, so I have created an RFC to choose between the two of them at Talk: Melbourne. Unless there are any other issues, I will be closing this thread within 24 hours as taken care of by the RFC. Please state your positions on what image montage you want in detail at Threaded Discussion and cast your !votes. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:25, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Royce Gracie#Royce Gracie_BJJ_matches[edit]

Symbol comment vote.svg – General close. See comments for reasoning.

Talk:Zindagi (TV channel)#Moving_forward[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by Manoflogan on 05:43, 28 July 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The article in question List of programs broadcast by Zee Zindagi. The other party TheRedPenOfDoom has been trying to remove all the edits because he feels that any wiki page of networks that does not broadcast any original content should not exist. This is inspite of the fact that wikipages of networks that broadcast syndicated content are allowed to exist. The examples of that are AXN_(India)#Programs_aired_on_AXN_India ,[[2]] and List_of_programs_broadcast_by_TV_Land

"TheRedPenOfDoom" thinks that they violate WP:Coatrack. In discussion WP:Articles_for_deletion/Lists_of_programs_broadcast_by_networks, nowhere does it mention that a wiki page containing a list of syndicated shows should not exist.

For your reference, I also include his revisions https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_programs_broadcast_by_Zee_Zindagi&oldid=673316739. I request you to weigh in as to whether his constant vandalism is justified. I would also like to point out that "TheRedPenOfDoom" has been engaging in a constant edit war on numerous pages. See User_talk:TheRedPenOfDoom talk page for more details about this. I would also like to point out that he has indulged in similar behaviour in the past on far more controversial topics WP:Talk:Gamergate_controversy&diff=639886639&oldid=639885634 and so an action like this is not new for him.

Edit: Zee Zindagi is notable because it chose to broadcast programs from Pakistan. India–Pakistan_relations have been fraught with tension, wars and disputes from the time of its existence. Indian channels and content are officially banned in Pakistan and vice versa. See Indian_soap_operas_in_Pakistan and http://www.firstpost.com/india/stop-broadcast-banned-pakistani-channels-india-delhi-hc-centre-1789341.html from Pakistani and Indian perspective respectively. Zee Zindagi is the first Indian network to broadcast content produced in Pakistan to Indian audiences. That makes it notable in itself. I agree that it is a network owned by Zee Enterprises. But that does not mean that the wiki pages or wiki pages listing programming content should not exist. This is evident in the fact NBC_Sports is a wing of NBCUniversal_Television_Group. The wiki pages of each of wing of the NBCUniversal_Television_Group is allowed to exist. Many channels that broadcast syndicated content have a wiki page with a list of programs List_of_programs_broadcast_by_USA_Network#Syndicated. I have no intention for the Wiki Page to violate television guide. If "TRPOD" objects to any entries violating the rule, he can delete the entry with an appropriate comment, but it does not make sense to delete the entire wiki. Given that the other wiki pages listed above are allowed to exist, lists displayed in List_of_programs_broadcast_by_Zee_Zindagi should be allowed to exist as well. From the edit logs, it appears that only "TRPOD" seems to object, and no one else.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Based on his requests, I have included numerous references in my latest edits https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_programs_broadcast_by_Zee_Zindagi&oldid=673123283. I was going to add more references until he deleted all the content on the page and added a redirect to another page. I offered alternate options in the talk page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Zindagi_%28TV_channel%29#Moving_forward, but he would not consider any other suggestion.

How do you think we can help?

I would like you to weigh in as to whether List_of_programs_broadcast_by_Zee_Zindagi wiki page content should be allowed to display a list of programs broadcast by the channel. I believe that it does not violate any rules or standards, given the evidence that other wiki pages are allowed to stand. Manoflogan (talk) 22:01, 28 July 2015 (UTC)ManOfLogan


Summary of dispute by TheRedPenOfDoom[edit]

I have added Divy(a)95 (talk · contribs) and Rockcommer (talk · contribs). I am not interested in participating in a discussion to settle applications of policy and scope with one editor only to have it undone by others.

As stated on the talk page, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and provides encyclopedic information as validated by reliable third party sources. Much of the content being pushed into the articles fails basic Wikipedia content policy inappropriately being a WP:COATRACK about programs from which the supposed subject of the article has had no impact other than rebroadcasting, and in general turning Wikipedia into a free webhost and television guide for Zindagi , which itself has not really established that it is notable on its own, rather than being a wing of its parent company. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:51, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Divy(a)95[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Rockcommer[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Zindagi (TV channel)#Moving_forward discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Volunteer's Note: Welcome to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I'm neither "taking" nor opening this discussion at this time as we are waiting to see if TRPoD will choose to participate by adding a dispute summary above (and I would remind the parties that participation in moderated content dispute resolution is always voluntary, not mandatory). I note, however, that notice and discussion appear to be adequate. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:08, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

I've notified the two additional parties. — TransporterMan (TALK) 14:18, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Zourafa[edit]

Talk:Grand Slam_Championship#Section_removal[edit]

Symbol comment vote.svg – General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Ranze on 14:04, 29 July 2015 (UTC).

User talk:RobertACavendish#Republic of Aquitaine[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by WikiDan61 on 20:11, 29 July 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview RobertACavendish has been adding content in several locations about the "Republic of Aquitaine", a micronation. I have reverted several of these additions at Micronation#Alternative governments, and have rejected a "protected edit request" at List of micronations based on the fact that no reliable sources are available for this micronation.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I opened a dialog with RobertACavendish at his talk page to attempt to resolve the issue. After a brief discussion, he ended the discussion rather abruptly.

How do you think we can help?

I would like disinterested third parties to evaluate RobertACavendish's additions regarding the Republic of Aquitaine to ascertain whether they should remain or be deleted.

Summary of dispute by RobertACavendish[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

User talk:RobertACavendish#Republic of Aquitaine discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer note - While there has been discussion on a user talk page, it has not been extensive. I am not declining this case at this time, but would suggest further discussion on the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:55, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
I've found additional discussion and have linked it, above. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:01, 30 July 2015 (UTC) (DRN volunteer)
  • I would have continued the discussion at the user talk page, had RobertACavendish not closed the discussion abruptly. At that point, I felt any further commenting on the user's talk page would have been pointless, and there was a clear need for outside intervention. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 21:02, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

I am not familiar with how to respond to everything you have made notations on. However, there are a few that are lacking. Your retort to most responses have not always been kind nor professional. I ended our discussion abruptly as you have said, because we were going back and forth... and not getting anywhere. Then you basically threatened me, saying that you would would bring all this to a higher level... and anything I would post in the future, YOU would be the first to suggest it be deleted. I responded by asking you to bring this to a higher level because I think you are letting your emotions guide you in your moderation. I agreed that the one article I would attain more sources for, however I felt that my other article had merit to be listed. Hence why I ASKED YOU TO BRING THIS TO A HIGHER LEVEL.

Moderators, please look at all the corresponding texts back and forth, not just the ones that Wiki61 pulled out to make it seem as if he has been giving me all the information needed, and being nothing but helpful during this entire ordeal.

I feel taking his recommendations for the one article, and deleting it myself (so it is a non issue) shows that I am interested in abiding by the wiki standards. I ended the conversation, because he didn't want it out in the open... which I didn't know about. So I ended the conversation. Yes it was abrupt, however I didn't know how to end it any other way with out being harassed by him. RobertACavendish (talk) 20:53, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

I've moved RobertACavendish's comments to the "discussion" section where they belong.

Regarding whether my responses have been kind or professional, I will leave that to others to decide. My suggestion to Mr Cavendish about page deletion ran along these lines: he thinks his topic (the Republic of Aquitaine) is suitable for inclusion at Wikipedia, and so has scattered references to it in several places, but has not yet actually created an article about it. I feel it is not notable, and so references to it in other places is inappropriate. To resolve the question of notability once and for all, I recommended that he create the article, that I would then nominate for deletion, so that the actual notability of the topic could be discussed among a wider audience. I was not threatening him in any way, but rather suggesting an avenue to invite a wider community discussion of the topic. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 11:25, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

WikiDan61 You mentioned that one of the major conventions to us being listed in the mocronation website was that we were not recognized. I would like bring your attention to the very first thing that pops up from wikipedia when you type in micronation:Direct link--> http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/Robert_Davis/Screen%20Shot%202015-07-30%20at%209.42.58%20AM_zpsc2nryur7.png — Preceding unsigned comment added by RobertACavendish (talkcontribs) 14:02, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

@RobertACavendish: Robert, you've missed my point. Recognition isn't required to be listed as a micronation. Notability is required. And you have not demonstrated that the Republic of Aquitaine is notable. The screenshot you posted is the result of a Google search (not a Wikipedia search), and it shows that the most prominent result of a Google search on the term "micronation" is the Wikipedia article on the topic. This is quite common; Wikipedia pages are often the most prominent search result in Google. How does this prove that the Republic of Aquitaine is in any way notable? The point about sovereignty or recognition is moot; the question to be answered for inclusion at Wikipedia is the question of notability. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 14:13, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

WikiDan61 I'm sorry but if you go back over all of your notes from yesterday the biggest contention was that we were not a full recognized state or nation. You then mentioned that that was an article from google. Here are the first couple paragraphs from the official wikipedia micronation website. You did also say in our correspondence yesterday that there were other micronations listed on the main wiki page that had lass citing or sources. I have not seen any of those taken down. So if we have more valid citations (roughly 8 - and yes some were from press releases that you don't accept), I find myself perplexed why our article was removed. I do understand the need for an independent wiki page, to be added unto the listing of nations. However this is not the article I am questioning.
first couple paragraphs on main wiki page of machinations: A micronation, sometimes referred to as a model country or new country project, is an entity that claims to be an independent nation or state but is not officially recognized by world governments or major international organizations.

Micronations are distinguished from imaginary countries and from other kinds of social groups (such as eco-villages, campuses, tribes, clans, sects, and residential community associations) by expressing a formal and persistent, even if unrecognized, claim of sovereignty over some physical territory. RobertACavendish (talk) 14:36, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

@RobertACavendish: Robert, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the question to be answered is not recognition, but notability. If I gave any responses that muddied that point, I apologize. As for the presence of other micronation articles that do not meet muster, they have not been taken down because I have not chosen to pursue that activity. If you wish to do so, have at it. For now, I think that you and I have made our positions clear, and we should allow the volunteers who monitor this board to review the issue and voice their opinions. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 14:44, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

WikiDan61 As you requested I re added the information that you deleted. I would like others to take a look at it and see if it belongs: Robert McClenon the direct link is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation#Alternative_governments RobertACavendish (talk) 14:52, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

I, like Robert McClenon, am a regular volunteer here at DRN. Let me note that while I see the problem with this material, WikiDan61's standard for it is not correct. Notability is only a standard for whether articles should or should not exist as a whole, but as the lede of the Notability guideline specifically says, notability is not the test for whether information should or should not be included in an article. That being the case, whether the information could stand alone as an article if it survived a deletion discussion certainly might indicate that it could also be included in an article, but its failure to survive a deletion discussion would not indicate that it could not be included in an article. The basic tests of whether something should or should not be included in an article are Neutral point of view, Verifiability, No original research, What Wikipedia is not, and Biographies of living persons. Based upon the sources cited in the deleted material from the talk page discussion, I think that these inclusions — which have no non-PRIMARY reliable sources — fail the UNDUE subsection of the Neutral Point of View policy and the NOTSOAP subsection of the What Wikipedia is Not policy and should not be included here. Moreover, the currently cited sources cannot even be used as a PRIMARY source since they fairly plainly violate the SPS section of the Verifiability Policy, since their claims to sovereignty and, indeed, existence are both (a) exceptional claims and (b) claims about third parties which cause the ABOUTSELF exceptions to SPS not to apply. I see no reason to believe that, based on the current sourcing, this material can appear in Wikipedia. Whether it might be included if supported by sources acceptable to Wikipedia cannot be determined until those sources are added. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:27, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Statewide opinion_polling_for_the_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_2016#Fix_the_map[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by Prcc27 on 04:19, 31 July 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

There were two polls conducted in Washington both within a day of each other. The PPP poll says Clinton has a 33% lead (margin of error: ± 5%) and the Gravis Marketing poll that was taken the next day says she has a 9% lead (margin of error: ± 6%). There is a map on the article that says Clinton's lead in Washington is less than 10%. But I wanted to stripe Washington with two colors to reflect that there is also another poll that says she has a 30-49% lead. The other user thinks that only the most recent poll should be used (even if it was taken the day after the second most recent poll), and striping should only be reserved for ties.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We've been discussing it at the article's talk page.

How do you think we can help?

I think we need you guys to weigh in on whether or not striping Washington is appropriate. Also, you guys might be able to find a way we can compromise.

Summary of dispute by Nitroxium[edit]

As explained in the talk page, the article for the democratic primaries has been following the same format as the republicans in using the most recent polls for coloring the map. Prcc27 proposes we utilize stripes on the maps to show what he considers to be "conflicting polls." However, stripes in the statewide opinion polls (Repub and democrat) are being used for virtual ties. Beyond this, saying that the two polls are conflicting would be WP:OR as we would be making our on conclusions on what can be interpreted from the polls. What we can do and have done in this case is put a footnote saying that the colors on the map may be slightly innacurate due to margin of error which is an undisputed fact. However, both Washington polls that Prcc27 points out cannot be considered conflicting due to the very same margin of errors.

In the talk page of the article I have provided an example of why we cannot conclude through the polls that they are conflicting without it falling into WP:OR.

"First, you can't compare the results in PPP with the polls for Gravis including Elizabeth Warren. People could very easily switch from Clinton to Warren if she was an option in the primaries and there is absolutely no conflict there. Therefore, we must compare the results of PPP with the Gravis results WITHOUT Warren. In the PPP poll, she has 57% with a margin of error of 5%, meaning it could be a support of 52%. In the Gravis poll, she has a support of 45% with a margin of error of 6%, meaning it could be 51%. Likewise with Sanders, in PPP he has 24% which could be 29% and in Gravis he has 36% which could be 30%. Hence why if there was a change of 1% of support from Clinton to Sanders during the next few days (which is completely plausible), these two polls are not conflicting. I must add, the Gravis poll without Warren still includes De Blasio, which means there doesn't even have to be a 1% change of support in the next days. Clinton could have lost 2% to De Blasio in the Gravis poll. There's many possibilities."

Talk:Statewide opinion_polling_for_the_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_2016#Fix_the_map discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Talk:Ubiquinol#Therapeutic Uses of Ubiquinol[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by Committed molecules on 07:58, 31 July 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

I inserted data about a characteristic of Ubiquinol which is a possible use of the drug https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ubiquinol&curid=11212543&diff=673651112&oldid=673641926

I have been reverted. I was reverted before because user Alexbrn claimed my sources were not reliable. I tried two times for different data until finally I have presented a pubmed indexed reference exactly as opposing users asked me on reliable references noticeboard and on talkpage. One of them has reverted again and I shall dispute this.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Talk page discussion and reliable sources noticeboard.

How do you think we can help?

Please assign us a neutral volunteer as some editors are prejudiced that data being inserted may be promotional or not reliably sourced. I have updated my reference to good one and changed the data to match their objections but an editor has still removed it and called expert MEDRS review a speculation. I shall dispute this.

Summary of dispute by Ronz[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Jytdog[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Alexbrn[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Ubiquinol#Therapeutic Uses of Ubiquinol discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.