Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard
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Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)
This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button The DRN noticeboard has a rotating co-ordinator, whose role is to help keep the noticeboard organised, ensuring disputes are attended to in a timely manner, are escalated to alternative forums as required, and that new volunteers get any assistance that they need. The coordinator also collects monthly metrics for the noticeboard. The current coordinator is Iazyges. | |||||
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Open/close quick reference
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| Case | Created | Last volunteer edit | Last modified | ||||
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| Title | Status | User | Time | User | Time | User | Time |
| Talk:Mujaddid#Mirza Ghulam_Ahmad | Needs Attention | Pepperbeast (t) | 15 days, 5 hours | Xavexgoem (t) | 3 days, 21 hours | Xavexgoem (t) | 3 days, 21 hours |
| User talk:LordOfPens | Closed | Lethargilistic (t) | 9 days, 10 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 25 minutes | Robert McClenon (t) | 25 minutes |
| European Graduate School | In Progress | Serenest (t) | 8 days, 4 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 22 minutes | Robert McClenon (t) | 22 minutes |
| The Students%27_Union_at_UWE | Closed | PompeyTheGreat (t) | 2 days, 13 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 6 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 6 hours |
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Contents
Current disputes[edit]
Talk:Mujaddid#Mirza Ghulam_Ahmad[edit]
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Talk:Mujaddid (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
- User_talk:Pepperbeast
Users involved
Dispute overview
Batreeq has inserted commentary as a footnote to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad pointing out that many Muslims don't consider Ahmadiyya to be "real" Muslims. This doesn't reflect a neutral point of view, at least, not in an article that isn't actually about Ahmadiyya as such and singles out one branch of Islam for criticism.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I've tried discussing the issue, and I tried initiating a discussion on the NPOV noticeboard, but didn't generate any real interest.
How do you think we can help?
Not sure.
Summary of dispute by Batreeq[edit]
I have added a well-sourced footnote note explaining the status of the controversial sect; the majority of Muslims regard the sect he founded as un-Islamic/out of the fold of Islam as the sourced footnote states. Pepperbeast disagrees with this addition, though I have explained why it should remain on the two linked pages under the "Location of dispute" subheading above. Thank you, – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 00:07, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
Talk:Mujaddid#Mirza Ghulam_Ahmad discussion[edit]
- Volunteer note - There has been discussion at the article talk page. The filing party has not notified the other editor of the filing. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:30, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
- Ooh, sorry... I failed to spot the template and wasn't sure if I needed to notify. Fixed now. PepperBeast (talk) 04:46, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
- Volunteer Note - If you have Twinkle enabled, you can always use the 'tb' tab and select Noticeboard and select DRN. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:13, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
- Volunteer note: Because this was initially listed without Batreeq as an opposing party (the listing party added Batreeq only after the request was posted), no summary section was created by the listing bot for Batreeq. Batreeq has been notified, and has even edited this listing to clear up some links, but probably does not realize that we are waiting for a response. I'll drop a note at their talk page. I will not, however, be taking this case as a volunteer. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 23:11, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
- Volunteer comment - Intriguingly, I'm not able to find any guideline or essay in project space about potentially POV things in footnotes. My instinct is that if there is an NPOV concern, then the cautious route is to address it in the article proper. Any thoughts from the editors? Xavexgoem (talk) 08:52, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
- My feeling is that if it doesn't belong in the article, it doesn't belong in the footnotes, either. Obviously, religion-based opinion about why Mirza Ghulam Ahmad doesn't count isn't NPOV. Making that a footnote doesn't make it any more appropriate. PepperBeast (talk) 18:12, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for your input, Xavexgoem. I disagree with Pepperbeast. The well-cited factual note I added to the article documents a viewpoint held by the majority of Muslims. I believe documenting this is important, because Wikipedia aims to be "the sum of all human knowledge" (from WP:PURPOSE). As such, "Attempting to ensure that articles and images will be acceptable to all readers, or will adhere to general social or religious norms, is incompatible with the purposes of an encyclopedia" (from WP:UNCENSORED). Thank you, – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 06:06, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
- My feeling is that if it doesn't belong in the article, it doesn't belong in the footnotes, either. Obviously, religion-based opinion about why Mirza Ghulam Ahmad doesn't count isn't NPOV. Making that a footnote doesn't make it any more appropriate. PepperBeast (talk) 18:12, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
- Volunteer note @DRN volunteers: - Is anyone available to moderate this case, or should the editors be told to use a Request for Comments, or should it be closed for lack of a moderator? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:52, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
- I think an RfC is a better option. Xavexgoem (talk) 01:10, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- Frankly, I'm unlikely to take it any further. I've made multiple attempts to get help with this issue. Nobody seems interested. PepperBeast (talk) 23:35, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- I'm definitely interested – I wouldn't comment if I weren't! Here are my concerns:
- Binary, either/or disputes (there is a footnote/there isn't a footnote) are incredibly hard to mediate.
- I'm not swayed by the policies currently cited in the dispute. Or rather, I'm not swayed by the way they're being cited.
- Policy is vague on this. An RfC will bring in more outside voices. We only bring in one, and can't really take sides. An RfC might help clear up the matter for the future, too.
- I can mediate this, but that will become frustrating slowly. Or I can offer a third opinion, if you want your frustration fast :) Xavexgoem (talk) 11:44, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
- I'm definitely interested – I wouldn't comment if I weren't! Here are my concerns:
- Frankly, I'm unlikely to take it any further. I've made multiple attempts to get help with this issue. Nobody seems interested. PepperBeast (talk) 23:35, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- I think an RfC is a better option. Xavexgoem (talk) 01:10, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
User talk:LordOfPens[edit]
| Closed as fizzled out. Neither editor has responded within 72 hours to the last set of questions. Editors should resume discussion of specific titles at article talk pages. Do not move-war; report move-warring at WP:ANI. Follow the rules in the Manual of Style about how common names are actually used, rather than trying to prescribe standards that are not used. If an editor thinks that the MOS should be changed, discuss the change on a Manual of Style talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 09:10, 18 November 2018 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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European Graduate School[edit]
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
The European Graduate School is a graduate school that has philosophers from all over the world who supervise graduate students. The article paints it as a fraudulent and substandard school which change is blocked by one or two editors. Several editors refuse to allow the full faculty to be posted, as in the French Wikipedia page https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Graduate_School (after all it is European). The nature of the school is mis-characterized as the short seminars are emphasized, and not the graduate supervision. There is a group of editors who seem to have holier than thou attitudes, and every one is kind of fed up with each other.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I recently opened a talk discussion page on the issue, and was told everything has been discussed to death, and there was no appetite for discussing it anymore.
How do you think we can help?
I am hopeful that reasonable people can see clear to update the site with the relevant information and make the article clear and useful to readers as is the French site, not unbalanced with undue weight given to paranoid suspicions.
Summary of dispute by Jytdog[edit]
The statement of the dispute in the OP, is vague and simply states a belief or perhaps perception.
The issues raised by the OP have been raised a zillion times on the Talk page. For example, there was an RfC in 2016 about the accreditation/Texas thing, and another in 2017 that failed to overturn the first one. That hard won consensus cannot be overturned here.
Another key aspect of the history of the page is an extensive history of conflicted and advocacy WP:BOOSTER editing - see the list in the archives here.
Finally, Steve, you have more or less blown the "moderator" role here by taking a stance on what you think the content should actually be (without reviewing the history of how it got that way) -- but in any case this is more of a WP:3O approach than one appropriate here. Please recuse yourself from moderating. But better, this should just be closed. Jytdog (talk) 08:19, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Solarmancer[edit]
Summary of dispute by Bjerrebæk[edit]
I'm not sure why I was included in this discussion. I haven't paid attention to the strange goings-on on the talk page of this article lately and I'm not party to any dispute related to it. I can, however, offer my perspective here based on my past dealings with the article. My position is as an uninvolved editor who has been editing topics related to higher education across different projects for a decade or so, and who has also removed promotional material from the corresponding article on my "home project" (the Norwegian Wikipedia), including a list of "famous people" claimed to be affiliated with the school. My understanding is that this is a small, somewhat obscure school, that started as a somewhat "alternative" or left-wing project, but that there is no evidence, based on any credible sources, that it is fraudulent or anything of the kind.
First: I cannot support the summary by the editor who started this discussion or their proposal to list all faculty members. On the other hand I can understand their frustration with the current non-encyclopedic state of the article.
When I first came across this article this summer, it struck me first as poorly written and it had a highly strange focus on Texas(!) and what turned out to be a passing mention in an outdated, low-quality source from some obscure local government authority on the other side of the planet, that is presided over by a climate change denier. No less than 60%(!) of the discussion of the school's "status" in both the lead and body was related to that – for a school located in Switzerland and Malta with no ties to Texas! Imagine if an article about an American university was dominated by the perspective (based on an old passing mention, to boot) of some Maltese authority; to me this is primarily an example of a US bias that we should strive to avoid in any article. It appeared that there was only one editor pushing this weird "Texan bias", and when questioned about the quality and relevance of his source and its clearly WP:UNDUE weight in the lead, he refused to offer any policy-based arguments or engage in constructive discussion. At the time I didn't care enough about the article to pursue the matter further.
In my opinion this article has a problem with both some promotional edits, and with biased editing and ownership behaviour by one editor who seems to have some sort of animosity towards the school. My recommendation is that they both stop editing the article, as they are clearly involved in one way or the other and incapable of editing the article in a neutral and encyclopedic manner. Currently it's impossible for us uninvolved editors, with long experience in this particular field, to make any effort to improve the article, given the behaviour of both sides.
Talk:European Graduate_School discussion[edit]
- Hi, I'm Steve, a volunteer here at DRN. I'll be helping out with this dispute. I have done some research on this item, and I understand this is the current text that is under dispute:
| “ | EGS is licensed as a university in Malta[8] and is recognized in the Swiss canton where it operates,[9] but is not recognized by the Swiss University Conference, the main regulatory body for universities in Switzerland.[10] In the US, the State of Texas includes the European Graduate School on its published list of institutions that issue "fraudulent or substandard degrees" and notes that it is illegal to use an EGS degree to obtain employment within the state.[11] | ” |
Breaking this down to what is supported and not supported in references:
1. EGS is licensed as a university in Malta... - this statement is supported in the reference provided. In addition, their is a copy of their University License issued by the National Commission for Higher Education Malta, allowing them to operate in Valetta, and Switzerland on their website.
2. and is recognized in the Swiss canton where it operates,[9] but is not recognized by the Swiss University Conference, the main regulatory body for universities in Switzerland.[10] ... - references this page [1], translated here (for my benefit, I don't understand French!). The link that The translated text says:
The private law foundation EGS European Graduate School Foundation offers tertiary level training programs in Malta and Valais (summer campus in Saas-Fee) in the following areas: Human Sciences, Health and Society (AHS) and Philosophy, Art & Critical Thinking (PACT). The canton of Valais is a founding member and has a representative sitting on the Board of its foundation. The titles issued by EGS have been accredited since 28 February 2016 by the National Commission for Higher Education of the State of Malta. As this school is not accredited within the meaning of the Federal Law on the Encouragement of Universities of 30 September 2011, the diplomas obtained from EGS do not give free access to the Swiss university system.
Breaking down the bolded items in the above, I read these items:
"The canton of Valais is a founding member and has a representative sitting on the Board of its foundation." (again, translated). To me, this states that the canton may have a representative on the Board, but that does not explicitly mean it is overall recognised as an institution by the canton, and I don't believe there is sufficient citations to support the text "and is recognized in the Swiss canton where it operates". There are approx 350,000 people in this canton, having a citizen of the canton on the board does not equal recognition. The spreadsheet with the description of EGS as having canton approval by the State of Texas is not sufficient either alone.
Regarding this text:
but is not recognized by the Swiss University Conference, the main regulatory body for universities in Switzerland. - again, this seems to be based on the fact they are not listed on the a page by the Swiss University Conference, which lists some Swiss universities. I reviewed the law cited in the translated VS page, which is here, and it appears that by description of the text, they have not been accredited by any Swiss accreditation organisation. However, I recommend it would be more appropriate to stick to referencing the actual text, which states "As this school is not accredited within the meaning of the Federal Law on the Encouragement of Universities of 30 September 2011, the diplomas obtained from EGS do not give free access to the Swiss university system."
Lastly, the Texas sentence is definitely undue weight and gives the reader the impression that the university is dodgy/fraudulent/illegal, which in reality it hasn't been accredited/their Maltese accreditation isn't recognised in Texas. The source (which is a spreadsheet) referenced explicitly states "Institutions may be authorized in other states or countries. Inclusion on this list should not be interpreted as limiting other jurisdictions' recognition of degrees from an institution. Texas law only applies to activities in Texas." The way the article is written does not make that clear, and for that reason should not be included.
I would recommend the paragraph be shortened and replaced to:
| “ | EGS is licensed as a university to operate in Malta and Valais, Switzerland[2], however as it has not been accredited within the meaning of the Federal Law on the Encouragement of Universities in Switzerland, diplomas issued by EGS do not provide free access to the Swiss university system.[3] | ” |
Welcome your thoughts. Steven Crossin 06:16, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
- Just a note, I spotted this diff from 26 Oct this year [4]. The text at that time said:
| “ | Founded in Switzerland, the School operates on two locations: Saas-Fee, Switzerland, and Valletta, Malta. It is recognised as a university institute in the Canton of Valais where one of its two campuses is located,[3] but does not hold federal recognition as a university in Switzerland.[4] It is accredited as a university in Malta.[3] | ” |
This is closer to the mark, but still, "It is recognised as a university institute in the Canton of Valais where one of its two campuses is located" - this isn't in the source quoted as per above explanation by me. Let's keep it simple - "Founded in Switzerland, the School operates on two locations: Saas-Fee, Switzerland, and Valletta, Malta. It is accredited as a university, but does not hold federal recognition as a university in Switzerland." Steven Crossin 06:35, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
- (Jytdog), I'm a mediator, not a moderator. Some volunteers here might just facilitate the discussion without weighing policy and guidelines, and let the people involved try and work it out alone. I've never found that overly successful. Nevertheless, I would appreciate if other volunteers could chime in here on the discussion @TransporterMan:, to see the best way forward for this thread, as it's gone rather quiet.
- Volunteer note - If editors stop discussing a case, the volunteer can close the case. The editors appear to have stopped discussing this case. Robert McClenon (talk) 09:13, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
The Students%27_Union_at_UWE[edit]
| Closed as premature. The filing editor has stated their concern on the talk page, but there has not been a response. This noticeboard can only handle a case where there has been actual discussion on the article talk page. Resume discussion on the article talk page. If the other editor or editors do not respond, read this essay. If there are concerns about conflict of interest editing, they should be reported at the conflict of interest noticeboard. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:38, 16 November 2018 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
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