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Case Created Last volunteer edit Last modified
Title Status User Time User Time User Time
Talk:Planet of_the_Apes_(2001_film)#Lincoln_Memorial_issue_again 2In Progress Firespeaker (t) 17 days, 6 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 hours Firespeaker (t) 50 minutes
Talk:Singapore#Sovereignty 2In Progress Chipmunkdavis (t) 16 days, 11 hours KDS4444 (t) 2 days, 16 hours Lemongirl942 (t) 4 hours
Talk:Wish You_Were_Here_(Once_Upon_a_Time) 4Needs Attention DavidK93 (t) 8 days, 14 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 hours
Talk:Antisemitism#Group hate 7Closed Mryanbrown (t) 7 days, 6 hours Atsme (t) 1 days, 19 hours Atsme (t) 1 days, 19 hours
Talk:Gay Dog Food#Notability_dispute 7Closed Aleccat (t) 2 days, 3 hours TransporterMan (t) 1 days, 7 hours TransporterMan (t) 1 days, 7 hours
Talk:Thriller (Michael_Jackson_album) 7Closed Carmaker1 (t) 1 days, 22 hours TransporterMan (t) 1 days, 7 hours TransporterMan (t) 1 days, 7 hours
Talk:Canadian House_of_Commons_Special_Committee_on_Electoral_Reform 1New Kirkoconnell (t) 1 days, 10 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 hours
Talk:Reza Aslan 7Closed Azarbarzin (t) 1 days, 6 hours TransporterMan (t) 1 days, 6 hours TransporterMan (t) 1 days, 6 hours
Category talk:Jews#Indigenous peoples of Western Asia 7Closed Bellezzasolo (t) 20 hours TransporterMan (t) 12 hours TransporterMan (t) 12 hours
Last updated by DRN clerk bot (talk) at 05:30, 23 February 2017 (UTC)


Contents

Current disputes[edit]

Talk:Planet of_the_Apes_(2001_film)#Lincoln_Memorial_issue_again[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Firespeaker on 22:51, 5 February 2017 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

We are trying to determine the best way to summarise part of the closing scene of the movie Planet of the Apes (2001). The original wording is strongly preferred by one party, and some alternative wordings have been suggested by some other parties. The alternative wordings attempt to clarify what appears to have occurred in the scene, but supporters of the original wording suggest that it bears a bias for a particular interpretation of the scene. Likewise, the supporters of alternative wordings suggest that the original wording bears a bias for a particular interpretation of the scene. We would like to arrive at some consensus that allows for the widest possible range of interpretations.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Not noticing the original discussion from a year ago, an edit was made to the sentence which was reverted almost immediately by one of the people originally involved. The discussion was opened up again on the talk page, and it quickly became apparent that a third party would be needed to help find a compromise.

How do you think we can help?

Determine the core of the arguments, figure out what each perspective is trying to say, and help find a wording that will be as acceptable as possible to people of as many perspectives as possible.

Summary of dispute by SonOfThornhill[edit]

The original and current wording reflects what is actually shown in the film. As MOS PLOT it states - "Plot summaries cannot engage in interpretation and should only present an obvious recap of the work". The other wordings suggest that it is somehow an alternate earth or Washington DC. That is no where evident in the film or script. That is only personal opinion and interpretation. When asked on numerous occasions to support this interpretation with a primary source, none was presented. SonOfThornhill (talk) 00:06, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Ommnomnomgulp[edit]

My original contention--which matches OP's, from what I can tell--is that the film's ending is ambiguous and the Wiki should reflect this. The original change I made allows for this ambiguity without changing the truth value of the current wording that is strongly supported by SOT. In the film, one simply cannot determine if the geography shown at the film's conclusion is actually Washington DC that has been changed to suit the apes's world or if it is an original creation of the apes. My original wording and the wording provided by OP correctly takes this ambiguity into account while still leaving open the potential for either reality.


In my view, the Lincoln Memorial always _appears to be_ the Lincoln Memorial, but the audience can't be sure if the memorial was changed or if it's an original creation original to the apes. Also, at the end of the movie, the edifice simply can't be the Lincoln Memorial, anymore, since the individual memorialized within is Thade, and not Lincoln. As such, it's wrong to call the structure the Lincoln Memorial, regardless of what it maybe had once been. The same issue applies to the statue. It is a statue of Thade, not Lincoln, although it may or may not have been a statue that included Lincoln's countenance at one time in the past. No one can know from the limited information provided in the film. As the viewer sees it, the memorial is to Thade, and Thade clearly is the figure that is memorialized. These objects together may have been the memorial we now know as the Lincoln Memorial, but the viewer cannot be sure, and the language provided originally by myself and then, independently by OP, take this into account. SOT has called this analysis an "opinion," whereas I believe it is based on sound philological principles.


SOT believes that the script should be the ultimate arbiter in this matter--or "primary source" as he calls it (neglecting the film as a primary source, apparently)--but the script also includes references to Wahlberg's character being physically held by apes at the end of the film, when, in the movie, he was not. As such, the script is unreliable and does not reflect the final product that appeared in theaters. In any case, the scripts usually serve as a guide and, as such, does not mean that it, in itself, is the story Burton actually provided to audiences on screen. In any case, the original wordings provided by myself and OP (I assume independently of me) takes care of this, as these sentences allow for SOT's interpretation as well as any ambiguities that arose between the script and the final version of the film.

Please don't misrepresent my views. I've always said the film or the script, never said just the script. And the film itself is not at all ambiguous as to that Leo is on earth and in Washington DC. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9ZJ0F8Ik9E SonOfThornhill (talk) 20:20, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Planet of_the_Apes_(2001_film)#Lincoln_Memorial_issue_again discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

First statement by volunteer moderator[edit]

I will be opening this case for moderated discussion. Please see User:Robert McClenon/Mediation rules, because those are the ground rules for moderated discussion. To repeat what is said there, be civil and concise, and comment on content, not contributors. Participants are expected to comment with 48 hours after I post. Now: Will each participant state in one or two sentences what they think the issue is? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:49, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

First statements by participating editors[edit]

The scene makes it clear that Leo crashes on Earth in Washington, D.C. He then deboards his craft on the steps of what should be the Lincoln Memorial; however, what otherwise looks like the Lincoln Memorial includes (instead?) a statue commemorating General Thade. How this came to be is left open—viewers can come to many conclusions about the timeline, universe, mental state of Leo, etc. to explain this—so the wording should only reflect the scene as it plays out. My current preference is for something like "He looks up to see that the Lincoln Memorial is actually a monument in honor of General Thade", but I suppose something (which I'm not understanding) about how it relates to the ontology of the scene is objectionable. Other proposals have seemed objectionable to me for similar sorts of reasons, which suggests that there's a disconnect between various people's understandings of the scene that we're failing to communicate to one another. —Firespeaker (talk) 07:15, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

The wording "He looks up to see that the Lincoln Memorial is actually a monument in honor of General Thade" is fine by me. As was stated on the article's talk page several days ago. I thought this matter has been resolved then. SonOfThornhill (talk) 11:54, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator[edit]

Has this dispute been resolved? Is the wording about a monument to General Thade acceptable to all? If not, please state what the issue is. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:28, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Second statements by editors[edit]

There were other wordings that I find better in various ways, but I can certainly live with this one. It sounded like the other participants felt similarly. So yes, pending any comments from User:Ommnomnomgulp, I believe this issue is basically resolved. (I was surprised that it was opened for moderated discussion right as it seemed like we were coming to a consensus.) On the other hand, I'm a little uneasy about the fact that I still don't understand User:SonOfThornhill's issues with the somewhat more accurate (imho) reading "He looks up to see that what otherwise appears to be the Lincoln Memorial is instead a monument in honor of General Thade", even after a week of back-and-forth trying to figure it out. I guess the fact that he was adamantly opposed to it in the first place is reason enough not to go with it, but I feel really stupid after all his explanations that I just never understood. The wording he accepts I basically just stumbled across by accident while I was fumbling around with other ways to express things. Would it be appropriate to ask for his opinion on why the "actually" wording is better than the "appears to be" wording? —Firespeaker (talk) 07:40, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

I've explained this several time but will try once again. The wording "otherwise appears to be the Lincoln Memorial" implies that it is an alternate Earth and/or Washington DC which is not at all evident in the film. It is only more accurate in your opinion and is merely a personal interpretation which violates MOS:PLOT. Hope that clears things up for you. SonOfThornhill (talk) 17:25, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
I'm generally in agreement with Firespeaker on this issue and believe that "appears to be" is more accurate given that "the Lincoln Memorial" implies that it is, indeed, the Lincoln Memorial, when the person memorialized therein is Thade, not Lincoln. It may or may not have been the Lincoln Memorial at one time, but the film proves that, in that moment, it is not the Lincoln Memorial no matter what it may have been in the past. Ommnomnomgulp (talk) 19:33, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
I agree that it isn't necessarily an alternate Earth/whatever, but the explanation provided makes a leap that I'm having trouble making. Namely, how does the wording "appears to be the Lincoln Memorial" imply that it is another universe? As I see it, it's just saying that this monument resembles the Lincoln Memorial in all possible ways up to that point—location relative to other landmarks, the steps, etc. It's just that it appears different from the Lincoln Memorial in that it shows General Thade instead. This makes no indication of what it "truly is" or how it got that way. Unless I'm really just missing something—in which case, could someone please fill me in? —Firespeaker (talk) 00:33, 13 February 2017 (UTC
"Appears to be" implies that it is not and never was, thus an alternate earth or Washington. Therefore, in violation of MOS:PLOT SonOfThornhill (talk) 00:00, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
It does not. Even our Lincoln Memorial always appears to be the Lincoln Memorial. If I were driving along the road, and pointed to it, I could, without problem, say "that appears to be the Lincoln Memorial." Ommnomnomgulp (talk) 03:30, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Aha, I think we might be getting to the heart of the matter. I wholeheartedly second what User:Ommnomnomgulp said. Anything can appear to be the Lincoln Memorial, including (especially!) the actual Lincoln Memorial. —Firespeaker (talk) 08:59, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Here, let me show you what we're trying to say. —Firespeaker (talk) 09:17, 14 February 2017 (UTC) Appears to be Lincoln Memorial.svg
The point of the Venn diagramme above is to demonstrate how the range of interpretations available from the "appears to be" wording is much wider, and in no way narrower. In fact, it seems to be the "actually" wording that is imposing more of an interpretation on the scene. —Firespeaker (talk) 09:19, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Please, you two playing semantical games. You know that the phrase "appears to be" implies that it is an alternate earth or Washington dc which is why you're both pushing for it. But sorry any wording that implies what is a personal interpretation or opinion is in violation of MOS:PLOT. So give it up. SonOfThornhill (talk) 15:02, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
I don't know that it implies that at all--it doesn't appear to me that it does. I can't speak for Firespeaker, but I for one, would appreciate some good faith. I don't know what we're seeing at the end of this movie (other than a film that needs to be burned, salted, and irradiated so that it can never harm anyone, ever again) other than a monument to Thade that appears to be similar in appearance to the Lincoln Memorial. You might have to allow myself and others to feel that we're right in a manner that has nothing to do with "opinion," as you keep wanting to push on us. Ommnomnomgulp (talk) 19:52, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────SonOfThornhill brought this DR discussion to my attention. As I said on the talk page, I didn't see a problem with the previous wording. I think the current wording,[further explanation needed] with changes that no one seemed to specifically object to, have made it understandable for any reader. I don't see anything necessarily wrong with adding "appears to be" or similar, but at the same time I don't see that it adds any clarity to what's probably the most straightforward part of this highly confusing scene. The building shown both is and appears to be the Lincoln Memorial, which is the whole point of the twist. It's a famous building specifically chosen so the audience would recognize it instantly.--Cúchullain t/c 16:37, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

It may have been at one time, but at the end of the movie it is not NOT the Lincoln Memorial since Lincoln is not the person memorialized therein. Ommnomnomgulp (talk) 17:57, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
That strikes me as a pretty sophistic argument. Very many sources just call it the "Lincoln Memorial", knowing full well that readers will get the picture.[1][2][3][4]--Cúchullain t/c 18:07, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
I have not previously been a participant in this discussion. I support the phrasing "appears to be the Lincoln Memorial" because stating that "the Lincoln Memorial is actually a monument in honor of General Thade" is counterfactual for exactly the reason explained by Ommnomnomgulp; it is a monument to General Thade and therefore is not the Lincoln Memorial. "Appears to be the Lincoln Memorial" is the most accurate description of what is depicted on the screen, because the filmmakers intentionally created a visual similarity to that structure before showing that it was not that entity. I wish to refute SonOfThornhill's claim that the phrase "appears to be" violates MOS:PLOT by implying a personal interpretation that this is an alternate Earth. It does not do that. The film is ambiguous and doesn't give concrete answers as to how the monument to Thade came to be. Leo could be further in the future, or in his original time, or even in the past. And apes could have defaced the Lincoln Memorial to depict Thade, or they could have razed the Lincoln Memorial to build the monument to Thade, or the past could have been changed so that apes built the first and only structure to occupy the space. In some interpretations, this is the same structure that was once the Lincoln Memorial, but in others it is not. "Appears to be" allows all of these (and not only these) and doesn't specify any one; the only thing this version of the sentence implies, by its omission of further explanation or specificity, is that the depicted result is unexplained. It doesn't imply the specific plot interpretation that SOT rejects, that this is an alternate Earth; it only describes the visual experience as I noted above. It carries no implication about the storyline, and avoids the ontological problem of identifying the non-Lincoln Memorial as "the Lincoln Memorial." --DavidK93 (talk) 19:04, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
As you say, the phrase 'appears to be' allows for different interpretations. Which is exactly why it is in violation of MOS:PLOT which states, "Plot summaries cannot engage in interpretation and should only present an obvious recap of the work". Thank you for making my case for me. The film is not at all ambiguous as to Leo being on earth and in Washington DC, so the scene is not open to "interpretation". The current wording is "an obvious recap of the work" and should remain. Alternate wordings proposed by Cúchullain & Ian.thomson are also acceptable. Any wording that implies or supports personal interpretations are not. SonOfThornhill (talk) 23:08, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator[edit]

I see that one of the rules in the statement of rules has been disregarded. However, the resulting exchange has been useful. I said not to engage in back-and-forth discussion, and there has been back-and-forth discussion. I will personally comment that I agree that if General Thade is memorialized in the building that resembles the Parthenon, it is not the Lincoln Memorial any more than it is the Parthenon. If General Thade is memorialized, something has changed, and it isn't the Lincoln Memorial Robert McClenon (talk) 02:19, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

If the question is how to refer to the building, it appears that there is an impasse. Are the editors willing to agree to use a Request for Comments? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:19, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Third statements by editors[edit]

Sure. Why not? Ommnomnomgulp (talk) 06:01, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Just a thought, does anyone have a copy of the film's novelization. I wonder what wording it uses. SonOfThornhill (talk) 11:25, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I believe a request for comments would be an excellent idea at this point. Thanks! —Firespeaker (talk) 07:45, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

I've been watching this debate with some amusement. Was going to comment on the Movie's talk page but thought the issue was resolved. Now the dispute has been moved here. I always thought the original wording was the best 'the Lincoln Memorial is now a monument in honor of General Thade'. That is a fair description of the last scene of the movie. The ending a bit confusing. But when you apply Occam's razor it is the best wording. The apes took over and changed the building a monument to Thade. Otherwise you have to believe that the apes built an exact replica of DC and the Lincoln Memorial on the exact spot that humans did. That is a real strength. And to something the moderator said above, Madison Square Garden in NYC was named that because its original site was Madison Square, It has moved several times but retains its original name. The Sofia Mosque in Istanbul is now a museum and has been for years. But it is still called a mosque and still named for the Christian saint Sofia. This because they are the common names that most people refer to them. The same is true here. The Lincoln Memorial is the reference point for the audience. Istanbul was once named Constantinople. If Leo was a time traveler from 1000 AD and landed in modern day Istanbul, you wouldn't say that he landed in what otherwise appears to be Constantinople. You'd say he landed back in Constantinople to find that it was now called Istanbul. That is why the original wording it the best. 149.39.250.11 (talk) 14:02, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Fourth statement by moderator[edit]

Does anyone object to a Request for Comments? We will probably have one anyway. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:30, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

If Christian bishops meet in the city that is called Istanbul on maps in modern times, they will refer to their council in Constantinople. (Christian clergy still call it by its ancient name.) Robert McClenon (talk) 06:30, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Fourth statements by editors[edit]

No. Still wondering if anyone has a copy of the novelizations. Curious what it says. SonOfThornhill (talk) 11:18, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Regarding Istanbul/Constantinople, the difference is that, in this movie, we don't have enough information even to know that, in fact, the structure that was the Lincoln Memorial was physically transformed into the monument to Thade. It's possible that, due to a timeline change, the latter was built instead of the former ever existing. Or it could be that the Thade monument stands where the Lincoln Memorial once stood, but isn't the same structure. In the film, this event is completely unexplained. The article should not purport to explain it, and therefore should not definitively identify the structure as the Lincoln Memorial. --DavidK93 (talk) 18:25, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

No back-and-forth discussion. We already know it hasn't worked. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:57, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Article is not purporting to explain it with the current wording. The current wording is neutral. In the movie, the audience knows that Leo is back on Earth in Washington. There is no doubt about that. What you're purporting is a lot of what ifs that are no where evident in the film. Those are personal interpretations and don't belong in the plot summary per [MOS:PLOT]]. SonOfThornhill (talk) 01:01, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
Correct, yes; that's why I don't suggest putting an interpretation in the summary. The wording I support doesn't exclude some interpretations that yours does, but that is not equivalent to actually putting any interpretations in the summary. --DavidK93 (talk) 04:00, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
The wordings that I suggested tried to be as neutral as possible. Once the phrase 'otherwise appears to be' is inserted, the implication is that it never was the Lincoln Memorial. That is drawing a conclusion based on a specific interpretation that has no source. And thus, is in violation of [MOS:PLOT]. SonOfThornhill (talk) 15:33, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Fifth statement by moderator[edit]

Will each editor please propose their wording of the description of the last scene, so that we can compose the RFC? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:57, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Fifth statements by editors[edit]

I'm fine with the current wording by Cúchullain, "He looks up at the Lincoln Memorial, only to find a monument to General Thade." which is a straight forward depiction of the scene in the film. Or "He looks up to see that the Lincoln Memorial is actually a monument in honor of General Thade" which I think Ian.thomson proposed. Also, a straight forward depiction of what is in the film. SonOfThornhill (talk) 04:20, 18 February 2017 (UTC) Here is a third alternative, "He walks into the Memorial and sees a monument to General Thade instead of President Lincoln". SonOfThornhill (talk) 13:09, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

My current preferred wording for the sentence in question (which is only part of the last scene) is something like "He looks up to see a statue of General Thade in what otherwise appears to be the Lincoln Memorial." —Firespeaker (talk) 04:18, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

What part of the rule against back-and-forth discussion didn't somebody understand? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:56, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Since the phrase, 'what otherwise appears to be' has been the core of the issue, that is a total non-starter. Several compromise wordings have been offered. Choose one of them or offer one of your own. But as long as you continue to push for the inclusion of that phrase, this issue will never be resolved. SonOfThornhill (talk) 15:06, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
I thought the whole point was for us to specify our ideal wordings and then get comments from outside. It's possible I misunderstood what RFC was for and what User:Robert McClenon was asking for. Could someone please clarify? —Firespeaker (talk) 23:08, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
My preferred wording it is the original, "He looks up to see the Lincoln Memorial is now a monument in honor of General Thade". But I'm trying to find a compromise that will achieve a consensus and satisfy all parties. You seem to be in 'my way or the highway' mode which explains why you ran here after the issue had been resolved on the film's talk page. SonOfThornhill (talk) 23:17, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
I've been doing my best not to let myself be baited by these messages, but I've had just about enough of the accusatory tone and strong-arm tactics you've been using. I'm doing my best to look for a compromise (you may notice that I'm not simply "sticking to" my originally proposed wording), but this doesn't mean I'm any more keen on the wording you're proposing. And the fact that I'm not going along with it doesn't mean I'm not looking for a compromise. As I understood it, right now we're supposed to be presenting our preferred wording and not something we think is a compromise, and these proposals will be collected and discussed for their individual merits. Strong-arm tactics and accusatory messages have no place in any of this, so please stop it. I apologise to the moderator if I'm out of line here, but I feel like every message User:SonOfThornhill sends is a troll attack :( Could we please have clarification on the process (as I requested earlier) ASAP? —Firespeaker (talk) 00:12, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Interesting the someone who engaged in WP:Votestacking and who after the issue was resolved on the Talk page ran here because they didn't get their way there is accusing anyone of strong-arm tactics. SonOfThornhill (talk) 00:36, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Stop making accusations here. This is not the place for it. As I've told you numerous times before, if you suspect that I have done anything wrong (and ideally if you have evidence to back up your claim), please report it through the appropriate channel. (Also, I came here because there was a lack of agreement and it was clear that we weren't going to resolve this between ourselves—not because I "didn't get [my] way".) —Firespeaker (talk) 00:40, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Stop trying to get your way. You're the one who initiated all of this. You made the change without any discussion on the Talk page and when it was reverted you ran to notify another editor who agreed with you. Then when the issue was discussed on the talk page and you couldn't get your way on there, you brought the dispute here. You refuse to accept any compromise on the issue despite several being offered. The objection to the wording "otherwise appears to be" was explained to you several times yet you kept asking for an explanation for it. You're the one who has kept pushing this dispute and dragged it out for two weeks now when you had several opportunities to shut it down. I'll also point out that you have failed to produce any source that supports your personal interpretation. While several have been produced that dispute it. [5][6][7][8] SonOfThornhill (talk) 01:05, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Sixth statement by moderator[edit]

What I had asked was that each participant provide their own preference for the wording of the last line or last paragraph. The purpose is to offer them as alternatives for the RFC. Back-and-forth discussion is forbidden. If there is any back-and-forth discussion, this thread will be failed, and the editor or editors who engage in the back-and-forth discussion will be given a Level 3 warning. Now: Please each editor provide their preferred version of the concluding sentence or paragraph. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:56, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Sixth statements by editors[edit]

My current preferred wording for the sentence in question (which is only part of the last scene) is something like "He looks up to see a statue of General Thade in what otherwise appears to be the Lincoln Memorial." While I am open to modification of the surrounding sentences as well, I do not believe that that would be necessary with this wording. I hope this statement of my preference is in no way seen as uncooperative or trying to "force" my agenda on other contributors. It is simply my preferred wording based on reasoning that has already been stated. I look forward to seeing what other contributors suggest, and coming to a compromise that works for everyone. —Firespeaker (talk) 02:04, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

I guess since we are throwing any attempt at compromise in order to reach a consensus out the window, I'll go with the current wording, "He looks up at the Lincoln Memorial, only to find a monument to General Thade". This was the consensus wording on the Talk page before the issue was dragged over here. This is the wording that doesn't violate MOS:PLOT which states, 'Plot summaries cannot engage in interpretation and should only present an obvious recap of the work'. This is also the wording that doesn't indulge in any fanboy theories that are not evident in the film and is supported by sources [9][10][11][12], including the script [13] I'll also add that the phrase 'otherwise appears to be' is drawing the conclusion that the structure was never the Lincoln Memorial. There is no evidence of this in the film. Nor are there any sources that support this interpretation. SonOfThornhill (talk) 15:35, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm ok with Firespeaker's interpretation or otherwise, if there's still some room for merging the two sentences: "Leo crashes in front of what appears to be the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C., only to find that it is a monument in honor of General Thade." The semi-redundant "Washington, D.C," could be pulled to make a more concise sentence. The most concise version would be "Leo crashes in front of what appears to be the Lincoln Memorial, only to find a monument honoring General Thade."" Ommnomnomgulp (talk) 23:06, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Seventh statement by moderator[edit]

A Request for Comments is being posted. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:32, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Seventh statements by editors[edit]

The RFC seems a little unclear. It talks about this being the last sentence of the article, which isn't right. Also, I think the extra sentence that C would be replacing should be added to the wording of A and B. And is the quotation mark in C significant? One more thing: are we (the original editors involved in this issue) encouraged to participate in the survey or exclude ourselves from the survey? —Firespeaker (talk) 04:43, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Singapore#Sovereignty[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Chipmunkdavis on 17:51, 6 February 2017 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

There is a disagreement over how to present Singapore's independence in the infobox. This includes whether to note that independence was from a country, and which events to include.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Extensive talkpage discussion, this is the next DR step taken.

How do you think we can help?

Provide a fresh look at how the arguments interact, if the participants are talking past each other, and fresh opinions and ideas.

Summary of dispute by Jytdog[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Lemongirl942[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The dispute is about the independence parameter in the infobox. If we go by what most FA and GA are using, the current convention is

  • Use the most recent independence event which led to the formation of sovereign state
  • If the latest independence event was obtained from a single entity, use "Independence from...x". Otherwise if the country was independence from multiple occupiers, use "Independence" and link to the event.

--Lemongirl942 (talk) 01:17, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Wrigleygum[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Shiok[edit]

  • Singapore has two significant 'Independence' events, unlike most countries – from the UK (after 144 years) and Malaysia (2 years). So it is only logical to have a single word 'Independent' (current Sovereign_type) as the heading to embrace both.
  • As pointed out by another editor, there is also no 'from' parameter in Template:Infobox country. Shiok (talk) 08:05, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Zhanzhao[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Singapore#Sovereignty discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer note - There has been discussion at the article talk page. The filing party has not yet notified the other editors of this request and should do so. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:49, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
Individual talkpages messages in addition to the existing note on the article talk page. CMD (talk) 16:48, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
  • The filing party's overview is brief and did not include reasons in defense of his edits to begin with. A summary of Singapore talk page discussions would also be helpful to the moderators and other editors who may have tired of the long discussions and 'wall of text'. I would include the following in the overview:
CMD proposed his bold edit here:
Independence from Malaysia
  • British colonisation: 6 February 1819
  • Self-government: 3 June 1959
  • Independence from the United Kingdom: 31 August 1963
  • Merger with Malaysia: 16 September 1963
  • Expulsion from Malaysia: 9 August 1965
The only change from the previous version is the Sovereign_type parameter, which also serves as title of the section - from 'Formation' to 'Independence from Malaysia'. The dispute is that 4 editors (Shiok, Zhanzhao, Jytdog,Wrigleygum) prefers a single word, either 'Independent' or 'Independence'. 2 editors (CMD, Lemongirl942) has argued to stick with what he proposed. Shiok (talk) 07:12, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Volunteer response Hello, I am KDS4444 and I am willing to take a shot at helping resolve this conflict. First, it looks like only one of the involved parties has opted to make any summary of the dispute. This is fine, of course, so long as everyone was notified of the discussion (which, according to CMD, has been done). I have read over the discussion on the talk page, and want to make sure I understand this issue correctly. The dispute is with regard to what should be placed in the infobox of the article for the parameter sovereighty_type= and whether the nation's independence should refer to its independence from Britain or from Malaysia. Right now as I look at the article and trace its history back a week or so, I am not even seeing the sovereighty_type= parameter anywhere, so I need someone to help me out here with that. Once I get a sense of where the article currently stands and if my understanding of the issue can be verified by any of the involved parties, I will offer up some thoughts. Although I can see that there has been a certain amount of tension between the parties, I get the sense that everyone is willing to be very reasonable, which is encouraging to me. Thanks! KDS4444 (talk) 12:59, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello. I kept my initial posting short and succinct and hopefully neutral, apologies if that was not what I was meant to do. The dispute mentioned is actually what to put in the sovereignty_note= field, which works alongside the sovereighty_type= field (and everyone seems to agree that "Independence" fits the type field), but functionally you're correct. The field has been removed from the article since discussing began. You can see the parameters at Template:Infobox country, and in the version that existed before the change I made linked by Shiok above here. Related to this are disputes over the contents of the subsequent established_event= lines, which were not in the initial edit but emerged during discussion. CMD (talk) 02:38, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Keeping initial postings short is always preferred— no one likes seeing a wall of text. So now... Where do we stand? The parameter has been removed— what can I help you resolve, specifically? Obviously I can't tell you anything about the nature of Singapore history or politics... Where/ On what points do the parties have a specific dispute that there is any chance I can help resolve here? Thanks! KDS4444 (talk) 10:23, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Hi the above infobox data needs to be restored at some point and DRN volumteers can help concur that a single word sovereighty_type= – 'Independent or Independence' will better embrace both of Singapore's two independences in the key events list. For this, you do not need to know Singapore's history. If you agree on a single-word sovereign_type, then we would appreciate an opinion whether 'Independent' (preferred by Jytdog) or 'Independence' (preferred by Zhanzhao, Wrigleygum) is the more appropriate one to use here. I can go with either term. Thanks. Shiok (talk) 11:38, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Volunteer response Inasmuch as the parameter sovereighty_type= implies an adjective rather than a noun, "independent" strikes me as more appropriate than "independence". Also, to the extent that this is relevant here, I think that people visiting the page and looking at the infobox want to know whether or not Singapore today is perhaps an independent "country" (city-state) rather than some kind of national subunit or territory of a larger nation— regardless of when or how that status was arrived at. This is particularly true since it is such a very small place but with such a very large international presence— a reader may well ask themselves, "How can such a tiny place like that be an independent country? But then again, it is Singapore..." The details of independence from whom all belong in the article's main body. To the extent that this thought is relevant here. KDS4444 (talk) 01:35, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
What would be useful would be to help promote engagement with what is written in discussions. As I noted above in the initial summary and my slightly longer response here, the discussion is not just about the appropriate suffix of independent. The stonewalling with regards to this is unhelpful. CMD (talk) 09:02, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
I see plenty of engagement on the talk page but your points are mostly irrelevant to infobox and everyone has stopped. As KDS4444 says, those are details for the body. I have been very specific in addressing just your infobox edits already proposed, not additional ones for now or prose which we can engage further in Talk, So do you accept the volunteer's opinion (with 4 other editors) on just 'Independent' and have this DRN closed? Shiok (talk) 12:30, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
They're direct comments on infobox content. What content should be in the infobox is highly relevant to infobox content. CMD (talk) 12:47, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
Do they change the use of "Independent" as Sovereignty_type? I'm guessing not, but if you feel they are important, then we should let the volunteers consider. Please consolidate all the relevant comments together so we do not keep introducing new items to discuss as has happened on the talk page. So what are the comments that are 'highly relevant'? Shiok (talk) 06:32, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
The whole thing is one section, and that is all that was discussed on the talkpage. But yes, considering Sovereignty_type forms a sentence with sovereignty_note=, they do affect each other. The comments can be found on the talkpage. CMD (talk) 06:42, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
You are being vague by just referring us back to to the talk page. That is a wall of text editors have abandoned - which would not be the case if they find it.to be what you regard as 'highly relevant'. And I note that no one has conceded to your arguments.. I don't see anything relevant myself, so I'm waiting for you to state some of them. Shiok (talk) 07:36, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
I find it useful for readers to know how Singapore became an independent country and what country they became independent from, as noted in guidance at Template:Infobox country. Sources note this occurred in 1965 as Singapore became independent from Malaysia. This is also why the SG50 celebrations were held two years ago. Relevant talkpage considerations are this one and this one. CMD (talk) 08:23, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I honestly no longer feel I understand the nature of this dispute. It appears that offering an interpretation of the parameters in the infobox template has not been helpful (that template, by the way, has no documentation explaining exactly what is supposed to go in this parameter or many of the other parameters; I have attempted to expand some of the documentation where I could figure out what was supposed to go where and to provide some examples of entries, but did not make it down to sovereignty type which remains undefined— this was careless business on the part of whomever created all these parameters). I am prepared to either surrender my part in this discussion and offer it up for another volunteer to consider, or to mark it as a resolution failure as I don't see us getting to an actual resolution, at least not under my guidance. KDS4444 (talk) 09:40, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

The template has some documentation in the syntax section. The parameters are much older than the creation of VisualEditor. CMD (talk) 10:07, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
KDS4444, can we raise this issue of the template for possible amendments? I could highlight this case for discussion as well. Shiok (talk) 10:36, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

How our independence came about and from which countries (2) is already listed as key events, so no 'sovereignty_note' is needed. In fact readers should know that our colonial history with UK is much longer than the 2 years in Malaysia. I just read through the long paragraphs in talk again that you referred to and still can't make out it's relevance to the Infobox list. Is there a clear message from the dozens of points and how does it affect the infobox heading and content? It seems the more you write, the further the conversation strays from your first edit. So unless you intend to update the body prose with citations where we can debate every sentence and wording, I see no point in more discussions you wanted editors to engage in.

Next, I checked the article's history for the past decade and found the following version of the infobox sovereignty section to be stable for several years since 2009. Note that the last event was "Separation from Malaysia". That is correct because it was a negotiated "Separation Agreement" which the Malaysian parliament voted to pass. So we need to revert to that, with appropriate refs.

Formation. (-->Independent)
  • Founding: 6 February 1819 (-->British colonisation)
  • Self-government: 3 June 1959
  • Independence from the United Kingdom: 31 August 1963
  • Merger with Malaysia: 16 September 1963
  • Separation from Malaysia: 9 August 1965

Shiok (talk) 10:21, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

  • Volunteer response Shiok, you are welcome to raise this issue on the infobox talk page, and if you believe your suggestions are straightforward ones then I encourage you to go ahead and edit the templatedata section and provide some useful examples for those parameters that you feel are vague or confusing. In doing that, you will probably want to make sure that your examples come from specific instances where a given parameter is actually filled in for a country's existing infobox somewhere. That aside (I am not supposed to be giving advice anyway!), I am still not sure where the remaining dispute now lies between the parties... or if there still is one. I do not feel like the participants have reach consensus on any specific conclusion, though that is not technically necessary in order for me to close this case. KDS4444 (talk) 13:30, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
  • For a start "Independence from the United Kingdom: 31 August 1963" is incorrect. This was an unilateral declaration which was not recognized by the British nor by the Malayan leadership. This should never be there in the infobox. The independence from British happened together with the merger with Malaysia. It was a combined event. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 01:30, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Wish You_Were_Here_(Once_Upon_a_Time)[edit]

Pictogram voting wait red.png – Needs attention.
Filed by DavidK93 on 15:32, 14 February 2017 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

An IP user and I disagree over how to describe a quote from the episode as a "Cultural Reference" in the article. The IP user reverted my version, a compromise version I proposed, and the same compromise version with a better source.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I asked for a third opinion. When one was provided, it suggested using a secondary source to avoid either of us interpreting the primary source, which is the episode itself. That led to my most recent edit, which was still not acceptable to the other editor.

How do you think we can help?

Assess if any version of the content meets Wikipedia standards, and engage the other user in conversation (as he or she has continued to edit the article but has stopped engaging in the discussion).

Summary of dispute by 96.19.112.107[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Wish You_Were_Here_(Once_Upon_a_Time) discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer Note It appears that there has been adequate discussion on the talk page, including the involvement of a third opinion. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:46, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Volunteer note - There does not appear to have been any recent discussion either here or at the article talk page. Unless the parties express a continued interest in discussion, this case will be closed. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:58, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
I guess I'm confused by the process here. The section states "Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer." so I thought I was supposed to wait until I saw a "volunteer response," rather than a "volunteer note." I expected a volunteer to initiate discussion and instruct me what to do. So please let me know in what manner I'm supposed to continue the discussion beyond the information I provided in filing this item. --DavidK93 (talk) 08:04, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Volunteer note - Do both editors want moderated discussion? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:25, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Antisemitism#Group hate[edit]

Symbol comment vote.svg – General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Mryanbrown on 22:59, 15 February 2017 (UTC).

Talk:Gay Dog Food#Notability_dispute[edit]

Symbol comment vote.svg – General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Aleccat on 01:48, 21 February 2017 (UTC).

Talk:Thriller (Michael_Jackson_album)[edit]

Symbol comment vote.svg – General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Carmaker1 on 07:31, 21 February 2017 (UTC).

Talk:Canadian House_of_Commons_Special_Committee_on_Electoral_Reform[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by Kirkoconnell on 18:52, 21 February 2017 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Basically, the issue at hand is the recommendations of the report. The committee had several members from several parties on it. Each member could make recommendations. The user I am discussing it with cherry picks the sections that support PR for the electoral system. The over-all view of the report, which has not been acted on, is to NOT bring in a PR system, but rather a system that rates a certain level on a scale, which in no way proclaims one voting system or another.

Almost off the bat, this person has insulted my intelligence or my knowledge on the matter, which is fairly extensive. He out-right rejects any proof I provide and solely focuses on the sections that fit his narrative. When bias was pointed out, he doubled-down on insults, refused to understand how the report was compiled and refuted his bias by just stating that he is not, when clearly he has been. I asked him to recuse himself from further edits, given said bias, made more personal attacks and said he would not. We are at an impasse.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I recused myself from editing, requested the other user do the same. They out-right refused, and continued to engage in personal attacks instead of addressing the sourced concerns I had with his interpretation of the report.

How do you think we can help?

A third party review the case, one with governmental experience in Canada could not hurt, though it does seem that the PR people seem pretty out-of-gear on making sure this article says "Canada proclaims PR is the way to go". In fact, it does nothing of the sort. Nor will their be a referendum. One recommendation is to NOT have one, another one is TO have one. At best, the report is un-reliable, at worse, contradictory. So someone who could sort out that mess.

Summary of dispute by RA0808[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

My interest with this article has been to make the relevant section reflect the contents of the report as clearly and concisely as possible. The report's recommendation for a proportional electoral system and holding a referendum on the subject is clearly stated and has also been the subject of multiple reliable secondary sources (see the article).

When User:Moeburn disagreed with the other user's removal of content stating the report recommended a proportional representation system and holding a referendum on the subject and suggested that the other user was splitting hairs and/or misunderstanding the usage of the term "proportional representation", I concurred and restored the content. The user responded with unfounded accusations of bias directed at both of us. I chose to assume good faith and provided the other user a brief summary of how proportional representation is a descriptor of multiple systems, not a system itself, and provided the specific recommendation in the report (Recommendation 12) which recommended a referendum. The user then claimed the recommendations beyond Recommendations 1 and 2 were "tacked-on" representations which were somehow not valid, and accused me of being "incredibly biased". The user's later responses included claims that 4-5 of the recommendations in the report contradict each other (not specifying which), stating I was cherry-picking from the report, comparing the interpretations of results to Islam, and again claiming that the report was contradictory.

As for the user's claims of personal attacks, I disagree that I have attacked them. I concede that my comment about the user disregarding "sections of the report because [they] don't understand the topic" could have been better-phrased, but I don't believe they constitute a personal attack because I genuinely believe there is misinterpretation of the report. After reading the comments above I continue to maintain that belief. RA0808 talkcontribs 21:16, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Canadian House_of_Commons_Special_Committee_on_Electoral_Reform discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer note - There has been adequate discussion at the article talk page, and proper notice has been given. This case can be opened by a moderator. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:22, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Reza Aslan[edit]

Symbol comment vote.svg – General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Azarbarzin on 22:49, 21 February 2017 (UTC).

Category talk:Jews#Indigenous peoples of Western Asia[edit]

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Filed by Bellezzasolo on 09:00, 22 February 2017 (UTC).