Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

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Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, mediation, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button Button rediriger.png to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember guidelines and policy when discussing issues. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.

The DRN noticeboard has a rotating co-ordinator, whose role is to help keep the noticeboard organised, ensuring disputes are attended to in a timely manner, are escalated to alternative forums as required, and that new volunteers get any assistance that they need. The coordinator also collects monthly metrics for the noticeboard.

The current co-ordinator is no one. Position vacant, please volunteer.

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We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over this page to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input.

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  • Volunteers should gently and politely help the participant fix problems. Suggest alternative venues if needed. Try to be nice and engage the participants.
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Case Created Last volunteer edit Last modified
Title Status User Time User Time User Time
Talk:Ibn al-Haytham#Removing_of_sourced_material 2In Progress Scienceis (t) 9 days, 11 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 3 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 3 hours
Talk:German Brazilians#Figures_of_German_Brazilian 1New Xuxo (t) 8 days, 8 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 2 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 2 hours
Talk:Bank War 1New 36hourblock (t) 4 days, 10 hours Robert McClenon (t) 3 days, 11 hours Robert McClenon (t) 3 days, 11 hours
User talk:Kleuske#Edit_to_.5BBangladeshi_Names.5D 7Closed (t) 2 days, 6 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 4 hours Robert McClenon (t) 1 days, 4 hours
Iranian rial 7Closed Himura Kenshin (t) 21 hours Robert McClenon (t) 5 hours Robert McClenon (t) 5 hours
Talk:List of state leaders in the 10th century 1New Bgwhite (t) 7 hours None n/a Bgwhite (t) 7 hours
Last updated by DRN clerk bot (talk) at 05:00, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Current disputes[edit]

Talk:Ibn al-Haytham#Removing_of_sourced_material[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Scienceis on 19:26, 16 October 2016 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

user:Kansas Bear removes sourced material from Alhazen article, because he says only the historians of Islamic studies are qualified to comment on ethnicity of Alhazen, and not other historians.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I tried to discuss the issue on article's talk page.

How do you think we can help?

There are two options:

  • Any historian can comment on ethnicity of Alhazen (supported by me)
  • Only the comments of Islamic studies historians is relevant for Alhazen ethnicity (supported by user:Kansas Bear)

If a third party tells us which of the above are complied with Wikipedia policies and guidelines, that would be helpful.

Summary of dispute by Kansas Bear[edit]

Well, I am amazed how quickly a "new user" that has been here 6 days figured out how to post to "dispute resolution" and how to post 3rr warnings.

Scienceis is using non-specialized/non-historical sources to push Alhazen was "Persian".[1] I went into detail how his sources were not reliable for Islamic science/Islamic history, which he categorically ignored. Oddly, Scienceis did not even try to give an explanation as to why these sources should be used.

FYI, doing a google search is no guarantee those source(s) like this website Vision Learning, are reliable for Wikipedia. History should not be written by a Professor of Environmental Toxicology or Assistant Professor Geological Sciences and Science Education!

Alhazen's ethnicity[2], which has been argued on the talk page by myself, which Scienceis ignored when posting a 3rr on my talk page[3], has been pushed by IPs and other "new users" with them arriving with nothing but sources that have nothing to do with Alhazen's biography. None of the sources Scienceis has brought have anything to do Islamic history, thus have nothing to do with Alhazen's life or ethnicity. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:44, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Ibn al-Haytham#Removing_of_sourced_material discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer note - While there has been discussion on the article talk page, it has been minimal. Discussion should continue on the article talk page for 24 hours to see if it resolves the matter. Also, the filing party is required to notify the other editor on their talk page of this filing. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:40, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. I informed the other editor in his talk page. --Scienceis (talk) 21:18, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

First statement by moderator[edit]

I am accepting this case for moderated discussion. I have no particular knowledge about the subject of the article; I expect the editors to be able to explain any historical or factual details. I understand that there is an issue about the subject's ethnicity. I understand that he was one of the major scientific figures in the Golden Age of Islamic Science. Here are a few ground rules. Be civil and concise. Civility is required everywhere in Wikipedia, and especially in dispute resolution. Overly long statements do not clarify issues. Comment on content, not contributors. The purpose of discussion here is to improve the article, not to complain about the editors. Uncivil statements or comments about editors may be hatted. Do not edit the article while moderated discussion is in progress. I expect every editor to check on the status of this case at least every 48 hours and to answer questions every 48 hours. Do not reply back-and-forth to each other. That has already been tried, and just goes back and forth. Address your comments to the moderator and to the community. Now: Will each editor please state, in one or two paragraphs, what they think the issues are? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:20, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

First statements by editors[edit]

Talk:German Brazilians#Figures_of_German_Brazilian[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by Xuxo on 21:45, 17 October 2016 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

User:Thomas.W added two non-Brazilian sources that claimed that the 2000 Brazilian censuses found that 12 million Brazilians claimed German ancestry. He removed the previous source that provided a different figure, 5 million.

The point is: the 2000 Brazilian census DID NOT ask about German ancestry. This theory started in Wikipedia, by IP numbers. I have been reverting them for years, but their theory about the census was spread to other websites and is not back to the article disguised as "reliable source". I asked User:Thomas.W to show where in the Brazilian census they asked about German ancestry, but he said he would not look for it.

Me and another Brazilian user, User:Grenzer22, warned that the Brazilian census did not ask about German ancestry and then those sources are wrong. However, User:Thomas.W and User:Iryna Harpy, who happens to be an administrator, are ignoring our advices and are doing everything to keep the wrong figure in the article.

I have included three other reliable (Brazilian) sources that found figures between 3.6 and 7.2 million Brazilians of German descent, including one from Simon Schwartzman, who was the president of IBGE, responsable for the Brazilian census (he found the 3.6% figure). However, User:Iryna Harpy removed all my sources, based on illogical and silly arguments.

Another user, User:Roger 8 Roger, also asked both Iryna Harpy and Thomas.W to show us where in the Brazilian census we can find the German figure, but they said they would not do it. They are also using a touristic propaganda published in London as a "source" for the 12 million figure.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have tried to discuss the problem, but Iryna Harpy is using "rules" of Wikipedia to escape from any rational discussion. If the Brazilian census did not ask about German ancestry, then the sources are wrong. Period.

How do you think we can help?

We need to remove that wrong figure and have a rational discussion. The Brazilian census of 2000 did not ask about German ancestry. If Iryna Harpy and Thomas.W think it did, they have to shows where. If they cannot show us, we must remove the figure. We cannot admit wrong information to be spread.

Summary of dispute by Roger 8 Roger[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I think the dispute is about the reliability of the 'reliable' sources. I think xuxo has confused matters by giving insisting that, from his personal experience (not good enough) the RS material is wrong, and I think others have incorrectly assumed that this is the dispute (whether xuxo's personal statements can trump RS). If the reliable source material being used (and there is a lot of it) can be shown to be wrong then it is not reliable source material and so would not be protected by WP rules. For example, it is amusing I think that Iryna Harpy is surprised that i do not necessarily accept a print out that has the Brazilian govt's stamp on it. Does that mean that anything put on WP from the Iraqi govt should be taken as gospel? I suggest a solution to this dispute is to find the 12m Germans info from the 2000 census and if it cannot be found then either remove the claim from WP or leave it in place with a clear statement that the 12m figure is not based on verifiable source material.Roger 8 Roger (talk) 01:49, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon. I am concerned the two sides here are not discussing the same issue. One side is saying that the citations claiming 12m Germans are RSs and so must stand unless trumped by better RSs (which they claim have not been provided). They claim this is all in line with the WP way of doing things and they know because they are 'experienced'. The other side, who are 'inexperienced' in the ways of WP, are saying that is irrelevant because the RS's first used have made a mistake and the 12m figure does not exist. Even RS's make mistakes. Therefore the RSs (12m figure) do not need to be trumped because there is nothing to trump. Sometimes a rigid and blinkered approach to dispute resolution can lead to absurdities. This is not a matter of getting better evidence, it's a matter of whether the RSs used have, in this case, made a mistake. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 06:34, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Grenzer22[edit]

The sources stating the 12 million figure claim the 2000 Brazilian census would have made questions on German ancestry, which is not true.Grenzer22 (talk) 10:56, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Iryna Harpy[edit]

The discussion can be found on the article's talk page, so I'm not going through this again. We seem to have a couple of editors who have difficulties in understanding what multiple RS means. Given that I haven't encountered any material accusing the Brazilian government of lying about their estimates of ethnic group numbers, and that there aren't challenges to their figures by outraged statisticians, or other governments accusing the Brazilian government of being a part of yet another incarnation of the 'axis of evil', I'm not prepared to discard the well referenced use of 12 million based on JUSTDONTLIKEIT arguments. As an inexperienced editor, I think Roger 8 Roger has gotten a little overenthusiastic about the heavy burden of editing. There are ample subjects over which consensus needs to be found, and sources carefully parsed... and this is not one of them. I've never had any bad interactions with Xuxo, so I truly don't understand why the stick isn't being dropped. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 08:56, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: You're welcome to moderate if you wish. Personally, I don't see that there is any dispute to resolve here as WP:RS and WP:V have been met. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:40, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Thomas.W[edit]

Xuxo has been repeatedly told that we go by what reliable sources say, nothing else, and that his claims about personally knowing that the Brazilian census of 2000 didn't ask questions about ancestry, which is all he has to refute what the reliable sources say, isn't a valid reason for removing properly sourced content (which he has done on more articles than just German Brazilians, showing that he's out on a crusade here...). But he refuses to listen. As for the rest of his claims here, such as " but they said they would not do it", it's a load of baloney, and very far from the truth. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 22:07, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

  • What we're seeing on this page is an endless repetition of the same claims made on the talk page of the relevant articles, i.e. that no questions about ancestry were asked in the Brazilian census of 2000, claims that none of those who make them has backed up with any form of sources, in spite of multiple requests to do so. Which since it's all they have means that this isn't a content dispute but a conflict between editors who stick to Wikipedia's rules about reliable sources and verifiability, and editors who seem to believe that their claims about personally knowing things outweigh any and all rules here. In spite of being told so multiple times they also still don't seem to understand that the burden of proof is on them, i.e. it's up to them to prove that their claims are true (through reliable sources), not up to other editors to prove that their claims are not true, as they, judging by posts on the talk page, seem to believe. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 11:32, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Talk:German Brazilians#Figures_of_German_Brazilian discussion[edit]

  • Hello, I am your DRN volunteer here to review your case. If you have questions, feel free to ask. WebCite (talk · contribs)
  • Volunteer note - There has been adequate prior discussion on the article talk page. The filing party has notified the other parties. It appears that a volunteer is ready to accept the case for moderated discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:13, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
  • I have read over the statements. Can I please have links to the reliable sources as mentioned? WebCite (talk · contribs)
  • @WebCite: Don't take this too personally, but how on earth are you going to able to help? I have had my account for ten years and have made about 40,000 edits, and Iryna Harpy has had her account for five years and has made 30,000 edits, and both Iryna and I know the ins and outs of the rules here, while you have had your account for 11 days, have made all of 400 edits, and can't possibly know the rules here with that little experience, so what makes you think that you'll be able to give us advice? Wanting to help isn't enough, people on this board must be able to help too... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 21:39, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
  • I understand your concern. New accounts doesn't mean the user is a "noob." I have been on Wikipedia for a LONG TIME until the IP was blocked thanks to a shared network. I have had some experience on the DRN and enjoy helping others.. WebCite (talk · contribs)
This board isn't for your enjoyment, it's for solving often very complicated editing problems. Unless we get someone with documented experience I will drop out of the discussion. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 21:47, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
WebCite, while I appreciate that you may have some editing experience as an IP, you have no proven track record for either Tom or I to elicit any sense of competence. I was immediately disturbed by your request to bring the RS to this board when the discussion on the article's talk page is brief and easily followed. All of the arguments and sources are there, and should have been checked by you already. It's one thing when you're dealing with talk pages with reams of convoluted discussion over a protracted period of time, but there's nothing complex to tease out of the discussion. Again, this is not intended as a personal slight, but I really don't have the energy to assist you with learning the ropes, and I'll also be dropping out if a volunteer with a proven track record doesn't take this on. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:09, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Volunteer note - Are the current moderator and the editors willing to let me take over moderating this dispute? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:46, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Yes. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 06:08, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Zeroth statement by possible new moderator[edit]

This is an awkward situation. I see that some editors want to discuss the figure at length and some don't. I also see that some editors thought that the previous volunteer had inadequate experience. I won't waste time by asking what the sources are. I will start by asking a few very basic questions. First, is the main issue whether the figure of 12 million, in the article, should be used? If so, why, in one sentence; if not, why not, in one sentence? Second, does each editor want to have moderated discussion? Whether we have moderated discussion at this point will depend on whether at least two editors with different opinions on the article want to have moderated discussion. Third, will each editor agree to have the matter of the number of German Brazilians decided by a Request for Comments? Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Do not reply to each other's comments, only to my questions. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:33, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Statements by editors[edit]

Talk:Bank War[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by 36hourblock on 20:05, 21 October 2016 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The question of the using the word "slavery" in the lede of the article, in reference to the Andrew Jackson administration (1829-1837).

User:Display name 99 began with the deletion of the sentence “The National Republican leadership aligned themselves with the Bank because it offered what appeared to be a perfect platform to defeat Jackson – and less so because they were champions of the BUS.” See Talk section “Motives for Recharter” I defended the content, and 99 abandoned the topic.

Next, 99 objected to the sentence “The Jacksonians considered the Second Bank of the U.S. to be an illegitimate corporation whose charter violated state sovereignty and therefore it posed an implicit threat to the agriculture-based economy dependent upon the U.S. southern states' widely practiced institution of slavery.” and 99 deleted it. See section “Slavery in the Lead” I reverted it and 99 deleted it again and warned me not to revert it. 99 objected to the sentence because “Slavery had nothing to do with the Bank War” and supplied quotes from the well-known historian Robert Remini to support it.

I provided citations and quotes from the Historian Richard H. Brown, and other citations from the article and google books to support the sentence as a counterpoint to his argument. A third opinion was obtained. In response, 99 wrote “I would be OK with replacing ‘The Jacksonians’ with something like ‘Many Southerners’. In other words the issue of “slavery” was abandoned, and another objection introduced.

Next, 99 complained that the article presented Andrew Jackson as a strict constructionist on the matter of the Second Bank of the United States – another departure from the original complaint about “slavery” in the lede. The exchange on Talk page seems to be open-ended, without any precision as to 99’s objections.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Lengthy, open-ended exchange, that tends to morph from topic to topic.

How do you think we can help?

Pick a winner, based on the quality of the article Bank War and talk page arguments. 36hourblock wrote and provided citations for 99% of the article, so he is the one defending it.

Summary of dispute by Display name 99[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

36hourblock has provided a fairly accurate summary, although I do disagree with some things that he has said concerning my position. Suggesting that we replace "Jacksonians" with "Many Southerners" was not in any way abandoning the slavery issue. It simply shows that, while some Southerners may have been concerned with protecting slavery, doing so was not an overarching concern, as I believe the article currently does in an inaccurate way. Also, I do think that my objections were clear.

To defend my argument, I have repeatedly cited and pulled two direct quotes from a biography of Andrew Jackson written by Robert Remini, in addition to citing various examples of historical trends, events, and other facts that I believe go against 36hourblock's case. Display name 99 (talk) 03:41, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Bank War discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer note - There has been extended discussion at the article talk page. The other editor has been notified. This dispute is ready for a volunteer to open discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:44, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Volunteer note - The moderator will not "pick a winner". That isn't how DRN works. If the editors both want a winner picked, they should formulate a Request for Comments, and the community will pick a winner, and a volunteer here may be willing to help word the RFC. If the editors want to talk, and want help in staying on track in order to compromise, a volunteer can mediate. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:49, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

User talk:Kleuske#Edit_to_.5BBangladeshi_Names.5D[edit]

Symbol comment vote.svg – General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by on 23:39, 23 October 2016 (UTC).

Iranian rial[edit]

Symbol comment vote.svg – General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Himura Kenshin on 09:13, 25 October 2016 (UTC).

Talk:List of state leaders in the 10th century[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by Bgwhite on 23:20, 25 October 2016 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

This is over accessibility and changing list syntax from ":*" to "**" This does not change how the article is viewed visually in anyway. It does change how screen readers voice the article. A lot of evidence was given to show how this effects screen reader users, none to show how it is detrimental to anybody. In short, is accessibility important or not?

MOS page in question is Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility#Lists where it states the best practice on how to code up a list. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Accessibility#List gap help is a discussion that shows why it is a problem.

Tahc and I were involved. I'm trying to follow MOS. Tahc believes MOS doesn't apply and older browsers will have problems with the "**" syntax. Tahc has shown no proof of this and Mediawiki software doesn't support older browsers anyway. Tahc also asked a discussion take place about MOS on the technical pump or the accessibility talk page. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Accessibility#List gap help was started several days later.

I asked for a third opinion. 3rd party arrived, didn't understand the issue and hasn't been back.

The Banner arrived asking for proof that this is a problem. MOS isn't proof. Showing HTML code isn't proof. Showing WCAG on how lists should be coded up isn't proof. Showing how screen readers would behave isn't proof. The Banner only wants outside research that this is a problem. As this is essentially a Wikipedia only problem, there would be no outside research. I started Talk:WikiProject Accessibility#List. People have stated the same things I have. Banner and Tahc have not participated.

Tahc started today editing page and doing a search/replace... changing "**" back to ":*"

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Third party dispute mechanism. Third party arrived, but didn't get involved.

Asking at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Accessibility#List gap help.

How do you think we can help?

After showing MOS, showing how the HTML code is bad, showing how screen reader's voice the page, showing how WCAG says lists should be coded, having another visually disabled person (Graham87) and person who worked as an accessibility software engineer (RexxS) (both via Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Accessibility#List gap help) give their opinions, it is still not good enough. I'm at a loss and feel no amount of evidence will ever be enough.

Summary of dispute by Tahc[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by The Banner[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:List of state leaders in the 10th century discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.