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Case Created Last volunteer edit Last modified
Title Status User Time User Time User Time
Talk:Liverpool F.C.–Manchester United F.C. rivalry#Honours Count? 2In Progress Chrisuae (t) 14 days, 8 hours North of Eden (t) 8 hours Autonova (t) 5 hours
Talk:MLS Soccer Sunday#July 2015: This article needs additional citations for verification. 7Closed Mikeylito (t) 8 days, MrScorch6200 (t) 2 days, 1 hours MrScorch6200 (t) 2 days, 1 hours
Talk:Royce Gracie#Royce Gracie_BJJ_matches 7Closed SubSeven (t) 6 days, 3 hours MrScorch6200 (t) 3 days, 18 hours MrScorch6200 (t) 3 days, 18 hours
Talk:Zindagi (TV channel)#Moving_forward 1New Manoflogan (t) 6 days, TransporterMan (t) 3 days, 15 hours TransporterMan (t) 3 days, 15 hours
User talk:RobertACavendish#Republic of Aquitaine 2In Progress WikiDan61 (t) 4 days, 9 hours TransporterMan (t) 2 days, 14 hours TransporterMan (t) 2 days, 14 hours
Talk:Statewide opinion_polling_for_the_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_2016#Fix_the_map 2In Progress Prcc27 (t) 3 days, 1 hours North of Eden (t) 14 hours Prcc27 (t) 2 hours
Talk:Yishai Schlissel#West_Bank 2In Progress Irn (t) 2 days, 5 hours Robert McClenon (t) 7 hours Robert McClenon (t) 7 hours
Talk:Spiro Koleka 2In Progress Burridheut (t) 1 days, 19 hours Robert McClenon (t) 3 hours Resnjari (t) 2 hours
Talk:YoungStartup Ventures 1New Truthbeeetold (t) 7 hours Robert McClenon (t) 5 hours Robert McClenon (t) 5 hours
Last updated by DRN clerk bot (talk) at 05:30, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


Contents

Current disputes[edit]

Talk:Liverpool F.C.–Manchester United F.C. rivalry#Honours Count?[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Chrisuae on 21:12, 19 July 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

There is a table in the article in the Football rivalry section that was un-referenced and disagreed with other sources. I added references to football governing bodies FIFA and UEFA, plus the official Liverpool FC and Manchester United websites and some major media sites and mentioned the subtle differences of opinion on these sites. I believe this removed the bias inherent in the article.

User PeeJay2K3 disagreed and reverted the edits with different reasons each time. I attempted to address these reasons on the talk page and received 3rd party backing for using FIFA and UEFA as references.

In the latest change, the user has removed these references and reverted to the original table but added citations to the official club websites that do not match its content. References to FIFA, UEFA and major media sites were removed as was the paragraph mentioning the subtle differences in their data.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have attempted to address the concerns of the other user regarding formatting while still maintaining neutral and factual language and the references.

How do you think we can help?

Please provide guidance on the use of FIFA, UEFA and the official club websites as valid references. Also provide guidance on the use of the paragraph mentioning the subtle differences in the data provided by these sources.

Summary of dispute by PeeJay2K3[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The original table may have been unreferenced, but now it is not. I firmly believe that objections were raised to the original table because it happened to place Manchester United ahead of Liverpool in terms of the number of honours the two clubs have won. Other editors have attempted to modify this by arbitrarily deciding that some honours are "major" and others not, picking and choosing from various sources such that their POV appears to be supported. As I have stated on the article talk page, different sources consider different competitions "major" and "minor", some do not distinguish at all. I even provided a source that accurately reflected the article as it was before this lame dispute started. But apparently the idea that Manchester United is a more successful club than Liverpool is one that some people just can't handle. – PeeJay 21:23, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Further minor addition: I also believe that this article is not the place to determine the major/minor nature of any competitions. If such categorisation must take place, it should be done at a WikiProject-wide level, not just this one article. – PeeJay 21:25, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Autonova[edit]

For simplicity, the question boils down to: which edit is more comprehensive, neutral, and beneficial to the article? This one, which is supported by Chrisuae and myself: [1], or the article's current state, which is supported by PeeJay. Autonova (talk) 22:19, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Liverpool F.C.–Manchester United F.C. rivalry#Honours Count?|Honours count? discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer note - There has been extended discussion at the article talk page, so that this issue does appear to be ripe for moderated discussion. I am neither accepting nor declining this case. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:25, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

24 hr closing notice[edit]

  • This case has been inactive for almost seven days. It also seems that talk page discussion stopped around five days ago. @Chrisuae, PeeJay2K3, and Autonova: Is this still an active dispute? If not, this case will be closed in 24 hours. Regards, Scorch (talk | ctrb) 20:21, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
User:MrScorch6200 Yes this is still active. Two of us agree on an edit, one of us does not and continually reverts our edit and ignores our discussion. So we need input from a third party. Autonova (talk) 22:04, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I refuse to engage further in this debate without third-party mediation. – PeeJay 23:05, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
It's not really a debate if the other party ignores the majority of the points and shapeshifts their argument. Autonova (talk) 00:03, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
@MrScorch6200, PeeJay2K3, and Autonova:A neutral mediator would be appreciated. The current state of the article is biased. It contains a table that accurately references a single source (BBC) and inaccurately references the two clubs involved. The edits that Autonova and I support use the most authoritative football sources available: FIFA and UEFA in addition to accurately referencing the two clubs and the BBC and other media sources. There is some variance in the data presented by these sources and this was noted in detail in the edits using very neutral language while using the sources in order of prominence. Unfortunately, the edits immediately get reverted without a valid reason provided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrisuae (talkcontribs)
  • I would be happy to assist with mediating this dispute starting tomorrow. I have some real life matters to attend to first, then will get up to speed with this dispute and hope to get things moving ASAP. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 03:22, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks a lot, North of Eden. Autonova (talk) 12:03, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

  • As a preliminary matter, I agree with PeeJay that this isn't the place to determine what awards are "minor" or "major". I am far from an expert on these things, and such decisions are best left to the relevant WikiProject. That said, this issue isn't the crux of the dispute. As I see it, we should try to reach an outcome where the table's content reflects the most reliable and independent sources available. Just so things are clear, PeeJay, what is your position on the independence/relability of the FIFA and UEFA sources? Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 20:20, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
    • @PeeJay2K3, Autonova, and Chrisuae: North of Eden (talk) 22:33, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
      • Okay, first of all, thanks User:North of Eden for helping out here. It's good to have a fresh pair of eyes look at a dispute. Personally, I believe FIFA and UEFA are extremely reliable when it comes to the accuracy of their information, i.e. the teams won those competitions in the years both FIFA and UEFA have specified, but I don't believe they're sufficiently independent to be relied on as definitive sources, since they leave out particular competitions that other sources keep in. But despite what others might think, I'm not just talking about the Community Shield here; UEFA leaves out the FIFA Club World Cup, for example, while both leave out the Community Shield despite both clubs considering it worthy of mention on their own websites. The BBC, as a truly independent source, includes the Community Shield in their list of the clubs' achievements, as do other media (although it's a bit of a mixed bag as to whether a particular media source includes the Community Shield in any given list; some do in one list, then omit it in another). The best solution, in my book, is to include the trophies that both clubs consider worthy, i.e. the Premier League/First Division, the FA Cup, the League Cup, the Community Shield, the Champions League/European Cup, the UEFA Cup, the Cup Winners' Cup, the UEFA Super Cup, the Intercontinental Cup, and the FIFA Club World Cup. I include the UEFA Cup and the Cup Winners' Cup despite only one of the clubs having won either of them since they're effectively the same competition now. – PeeJay 08:52, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
        • Yes thanks again User:North of Eden. With all due respect to PeeJay, I reject the assertion that both of the clubs' websites list the same set of trophies as the BBC source, as you can see here: the Man Utd site lists them [2], but the Liverpool site [3] is more ambiguous, listing the Charity Shield amongst even the reserve and youth team titles. And the BBC article itself is out of date. So the article in its current state as decided by PeeJay relies on an out of date BBC article, and picks and chooses a common set of trophies from the club websites, which don't agree with each other. Important to note is that the article in its current state omits every other source in favour of this - the BBC source is the only one found thus far which lists this set of trophies. This surely qualifies as undue weight. Our proposed edit: [4] lists a broad variety of sources, each giving a slightly different set of trophies, including the BBC article. The source for the trophy table was decided as FIFA, which Chrisuae and I deemed to be the most neutral and reliable. Autonova (talk) 12:16, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
          • Just as a hypothetical, would it be possible to use two tables in the article? One, a la the one favored by Autonova and Chrisuae, would indicate that it is the result of official FIFA/UEFA tabulation. The other, "narrower" table would be in accordance with the tabulation done by the BBC and each club. If this isn't acceptable, it's no problem; I'm just throwing this at the wall to see if it sticks. North of Eden (talk) 13:05, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
            • It's a reasonable suggestion, but I'd say it would be pretty redundant to have two tables when the only real difference between them would be the presence/absence of the Community Shield. Essentially, this argument comes down to two users accusing me of having a Manchester United bias by wanting to include the Community Shield, while I believe they have an anti-Manchester United bias for wanting to exclude it. WP:AGF has been failed on both sides. We both have valid reasons for wanting to include/exclude the Community Shield, but if you exclude it, you almost have to exclude a few competitions that are of a similar nature. – PeeJay 14:11, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
              • One possible alternative would be removing some or all of the contentious content from the table and discussing it in paragraph format below. North of Eden (talk) 14:19, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
                • Perhaps I was just too stubborn to see that before, but that is effectively what the other two tried already. Helps to hear it from an impartial observer though. – PeeJay 14:39, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
    • @PeeJay2K3: I definitely don't want to infer that you're in the wrong at this point. If you do feel comfortable with the table-and-paragraph setup, that's great, but I am happy to continue this discussion if you'd prefer that. Your suggestion that competitions similar to the Community Shield should also be excluded may merit further discussion. North of Eden (talk) 15:18, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
      • I appreciate that. To be honest, I can see how a lot of sources would support the position that the Community Shield isn't worth including in a list of honours, but the fact that the clubs themselves include it, as do a significant number of reliable sources (albeit not necessarily a majority) makes me think it's worth further discussion. What irritates me is the incongruity between people's logic when it comes to the UEFA Super Cup, the Intercontinental Cup and the FIFA Club World Cup. They're all just glorified friendlies, like the Community Shield, except it seems that the fact that they take place on an international level makes people think they're somehow worth more. Perhaps they are worth more due to the fact that it takes more to qualify for them, but only someone with a poor sense of logic would use that idea to denigrate the Community Shield, thus serving their own POV that Liverpool are the "more successful" club out of the two. – PeeJay 15:46, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
        • Is there any kind of database outside of FIFA/UEFA/the BBC (and the other sources listed) that would provide further substantiation for either your point or Autonova's? Maybe having some additional sourcing would help. I understand your point regarding the other honors. It seems to me like the BBC and FIFA/UEFA sources clash; I understand Autonova's point about the reliability and timeliness of the BBC source, and that's something to discuss, also. North of Eden (talk) 16:22, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
          • The BBC source may be out of date for the exact numbers, but in terms of its assessment of which trophies are worth listing, it matches perfectly with the way the article has existed for the last several years. It's only recently that the contention regarding the Community Shield has arisen from Chrisuae and Autonova. – PeeJay 16:58, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
            • What if the current table were kept intact, but with two "Total" columns instead of one? The first "Total" column would remain the same; the second could have an annotation indicating that it's based off FIFA/UEFA tabulation. This way, both viewpoints would be incorporated into the table, without the redundancy of two tables. North of Eden (talk) 17:25, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
  • In the article itself, it does not provide any opinion on which competitions are major or minor. It does reveals the amount of honours, each team has won in its history. However it does not include honours such as Liverpool winning Division 2. Therefore, I suggest that all honours won by each club should be mentioned with the possibility of splitting it into two sections with Major Honours including Premier League, Champions League, Europa League, FA Cup & League Cup then stating all the Other Honours including Community Shield, Super Cup and Club World Cup.CovCity97 (talk) 18:34, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
    • That is a good suggestion. Do the parties have any thoughts on either this or my suggestion above? Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 19:12, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
      • Firstly, to catch up with the points raised so far: the Charity Shield is unique in that it is before the first Premier League match of the season. It is widely considered to have a lower status than other tournaments. Alex Ferguson himself said, "It's always a game we never quite use as a do or die thing; we use it as a barometer for fitness", as included in the trophy's article. Also as Peejay alluded to, it's also a domestic trophy so is naturally less high-profile than the other short tournaments such as the UEFA Super Cup. Secondly, I feel I need to repeat this since it wasn't acknowledged - the two club's websites are surely not sufficient references for the article's current content, as they each list a different set of trophies? Per your suggestion, North of Eden, of two total columns, I would support it if additional sources could be found which corroborate the BBC set of trophies. Giving a whole column for one source and another column for seven sources seems like undue wighting (in Chrisuae and my favoured edit, we list alongside the BBC source FIFA, UEFA and [5], [6], [7], [8], [9]). With regard to CovCity97's suggestion, I essentially tried this back in January: [10], but it was reverted by PeeJay, which started this dispute. By April ([11]) I had gathered five reliable sources to back up the major vs. minor trophy distinction ([12], [13], [14], [15], [16]). I predictably agree with CovCity97's suggestion, as it would add additional information for the reader on the minor trophies, which my edit didn't do. Autonova (talk) 20:04, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
        • The problem with CovCity's suggestion is that he appears to be implying that we should list all the trophies on both clubs' own honours lists, including the Lancashire Cup and the Carlsberg Cup, which no other source would ever consider listing. How do we reconcile including those just so we can say we're including everything? Also, the clubs may treat the Community Shield as a "warm-up" of sorts, but it's still a legitimate competition, as justified by the fact that several media outlets include it in totals. You also say it's unique in that it takes place before the start of the English league season, but the UEFA Super Cup is similarly unique in that it takes place before the start of the Champions League/Europa League competitions proper, while the Club World Cup takes place at the end of the calendar year. Hardly a valid measure of the legitimacy of any competition. If anything, the Community Shield's status as the curtain-raiser to the English football season should serve to enhance its reputation. – PeeJay 20:49, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
          • @PeeJay2K3 and Autonova:Thanks User:North of Eden and User:CovCity97 for helping out with this discussion. How about a combination of the two mentioned solutions? I like the idea of the FIFA table with a total and then an additional table listing every other honour the clubs have won, regardless of the status of the trophy, with an overall total followed by the paragraph . Although there is no single definitive source, FIFA is the most authoritative source on football matters. I think we are in agreement as to the relative importance of the trophies, but are not yet in agreement as to where to draw the line between those worthy of inclusion and those that are not. For this reason, I believe we should select FIFA as the most prominent source and any disagreements on other credible sources should be mentioned in a paragraph with in-text attribution, which I think follows Neutrality. I do not believe that the BBC should be used as the source for the primary table because, although it is a credible source and should be mentioned in the paragraph, I don't think it is more prominent than FIFA on football matters, especially as it presents a minority point of view and has broadcast rights to some of the trophies including the Community Shield. I agree with User:PeeJay2K3 about the Community Shield being similar to the other Super Cups (glorified friendlies) but the Community Shield is different in that it was originally invitational, was not always contested by previous trophy winners, was sometimes between Div 1 and Div 2 or Southern League winners, is played pre-season (Arsenal once declined to participate in favour of other pre-season friendlies) and was often shared. Also, the two clubs' official websites list every trophy ever won by the clubs, but they split them into multiple tables. The Liverpool site [17] lists the season-long, large-scale participation trophies in a prominent table at the top of their trophy page and then lists every other honour the club has won in a separate table using a small font. Manchester United [18] list their "Domestic" and "European" honors in side-by-side tables and then have a table below listing "Other" honours. Both club websites include the Community Shield in the lower table. They disagree only on the UEFA Super cup (ManU include it, Liverpool do not). If we go with this, the table would look something like this followed by the paragraph that User:Autonova and I support in our proposed edit: [19]
Major honours as defined by FIFA[1][2] Liverpool FC Manchester United
FIFA Club World Cup 0 1 2008
Intercontinental Cup 0 1 1999
European Cups/UEFA Champions Leagues 5 1977, 1978, 1981, 1984, 2005 3 1968, 1999, 2008
UEFA Cups 3 1973, 1976, 2001 0
European Cup Winners' Cup 0 1 1991
UEFA Super Cups 3 1977, 2001, 2005 1 1991
English championships 18 1901, 1906, 1922, 1923, 1947, 1964, 1966, 1973, 1976, 1977, 1979, 1980, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1986, 1988, 1990 20 1908, 1911, 1952, 1956, 1957, 1965, 1967, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2013
FA Cups 7 1965, 1974, 1986, 1989, 1992, 2001, 2006 11 1909, 1948, 1963, 1977, 1983, 1985, 1990, 1994, 1996, 1999, 2004
League Cups 8 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1995, 2001, 2003, 2012 4 1992, 2006, 2009, 2010
Total 44 42
Additional first-team honours as defined by the official club websites Liverpool FC Manchester United
FA Community Shield 15 (5 shared) 1964*, 1965*, 1966, 1974*, 1976, 1977*, 1979, 1980, 1982, 1986*, 1988, 1989, 1990*, 2001, 2006 (* shared) 20 (4 shared) 1908, 1911, 1952, 1956, 1957, 1965*, 1967*, 1977*, 1983, 1990*, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2013 (* shared)
FA Super Cup 1 1986 0
Dvision 2 Championship 4 1893–94, 1895–96, 1904–05, 1961–62 2 1935–36, 1974–75
Lancashire League 1 1892 0
Overall Total 65 64
Chrisuae (talk) 21:02, 31 July 2015 (UTC) Chrisuae
          • User:PeeJay2K3 Of course it's a legitimate competition. The point I'm making re: the start of the league is that it merges the competition with pre-season (off the cuff, these two sources refer to it as a preseason event: [20], [21]). So it's unique because it is arguably a preseason match, held before fitness has been finalised, as Ferguson alludes to. With regard to the complete set of trophies, it seems reasonable to stick with the major honours and minor honours as detailed by the above sources, including FIFA. I'm interested in what others think however. Autonova (talk) 21:10, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

References

  • Thanks Chrisuae for the draft table. What do folks think about using that? I'm happy to continue discussion, but I think it really helps to reach middle ground, and still covers the honors in contention. @PeeJay2K3:, what are your thoughts on the table? North of Eden (talk) 22:02, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
    • Yes looks good to me, good work Chrisuae. Autonova (talk) 22:07, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
    • To be honest, from a design perspective, I find it to be unwieldy. If I were in a hyperbolic mood, I might even say it disgusts the aesthete in me. There's far too much white space in there for my liking, and the words "as defined by..." seem completely unnecessary; the source for the list should be evident by the footnotes provided. The years of each title aren't necessary either; all we need is the number of titles – when they were won is irrelevant to the success of each club. Furthermore, I disagree profoundly with the inclusion of both the Lancashire League and the Second Division. Winning the Second Division isn't an honour worth including in the article; the table is supposed to be comparing the successes of the two clubs, but there's no success to be had in being in the Second Division, even if you do end up winning it. Still further, I'm still not happy about the way the Community Shield is being treated differently to the UEFA Super Cup, the Intercontinental Cup and the FIFA Club World Cup; are they not all just glorified friendlies? In my book, either they all are or none of them is. – PeeJay 22:13, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
    • I like the table, I would change "English Championships" to "Premier League/Division One" to avoid confusion as the second tier is now known as the Championship. However I do see User:PeeJay2K3 point about UEFA Super Cup, Intercontinental Cup and Club World Cup being treated differently to the Community Shield. In my opinion, I would not include them as Major Honours meaning the Major V Minor dispute is brought up again. I noticed that the El Clasico page list their trophies in categories of International and Domestic, which could be an easier option. The Manchester Derby page labels the honours exactly the way the Liverpool-Manchester United rivalry page is. This surely means any agreements done to the honours on this page, will have to be changed on other pages.CovCity97 (talk) 23:19, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
      • Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far to this discussion. I'm looking forward to resuming discussion in the morning. There are still a number of issues that need to be ironed out regarding what will remain in the table, what might be changed in other articles, etc. What do folks think about CovCity's International/Domestic suggestion? That sounds like it might be efficient. Additionally, it would be great if parties could think of a few things they would be able to concede, just in case we have some issues finding middle ground. Essentially, what won't you budge on, and what might you budge on. This will help me come up with additional suggestions in the event that the International/Domestic idea doesn't work out. Thanks much, North of Eden (talk) 02:31, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
        • Thanks for the responses to the draft table. I think the dates are useful as we can make them all links to the relevant articles as they are on the clubs' articles or remove them completely @North of Eden:. I agree with User:PeeJay2K3 about the super cups all being "glorified friendlies" and I would be happy to see them relegated to the lower table, but I could not find an authoritative source that does this. I can also see why the Community Shield is different from the other Super Cups for the reasons that Autonova and I have stated previously. Additionally, the Community/Charity Shield has always been to raise money for charities and it was only formalised in 1974 that the teams selected to play in the match should be the FA Cup winners and the League Champions. Prior to that it went through a few different iterations and was contested by teams who had won nothing in the previous season, sometimes from lower divisions. It wasn't always contested by clubs and has been won 7 times by "select XI" teams including twice by amateur teams. Even now, when a team wins both the FA Cup and Premier League, the runners-up contest the Community Shield. In contrast, the other Super Cups do have a slightly higher standing. The UEFA Super cup has always been between the winners of the 2 primary UEFA competitions. This can never be the same team so there is no need to allow runners-up to compete. The FIFA Club World Cup is contested by the continental champions plus the champions of the host nation and has a large financial incentive for the winners. In 2000, Manchester United pulled out of the FA Cup in favour of the FIFA Club World cup. We can debate the relative merits of all of the trophies and may never completely agree, but the table makes no judgement about that as it cites valid sources. I agree with CovCity97 that other rivalry articles may need revision based on FIFA or UEFA information. A quick check of the clubs' articles seems to show they include all trophies. I think the idea to categorize the trophies as Domestic or International has merit, but should be in addition to the draft table because the draft table is based on FIFA information. This would match the way UEFA categorise the data. If we add the International/Domestic classification and remove the years it may look like this:
Major honours as defined by FIFA[1][2] Liverpool FC Manchester United
International
FIFA Club World Cup 0 1
Intercontinental Cup 0 1
European Cups/UEFA Champions Leagues 5 3
UEFA Cups 3 0
European Cup Winners' Cup 0 1
UEFA Super Cups 3 1
Domestic Division One / Premier League 18 20
FA Cups 7 11
League Cups 8 4
Total 44 42
Additional first-team honours as defined by the official club websites
Domestic FA Community Shield 15 (5 shared) 20 (4 shared)
FA Super Cup 1 0
Dvision 2 Championship 4 2
Lancashire League 1 0
Overall Total 65 64

In my opinion including the years/links is useful, but not strictly necessary. Likewise with the International/Domestic classification. However, the use of FIFA/UEFA as the reference to classify the trophies is paramount. The paragraph is also important to discuss the less prominent sources. Chrisuae (talk) 03:50, 1 August 2015 (UTC) Chrisuae

  • This is more elegant I suppose. Also it's of the same style as the El Clasico table. I'd be happy with this. Autonova (talk) 10:30, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
    • I am very impressed with this table, also. Does the fact that it clearly lists the "major honors" as being defined by FIFA, and the fact that BBC/other sources will be explained in the paragraph, ally editors' concerns? That said, I believe PeeJay had some concerns regarding the validity of the Lancashire Cup being included there. Any thoughts on that? North of Eden (talk) 18:46, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
      • I would suggest that the "overall total" at the bottom be removed. As Chrisuae mentioned, the Community Shield was shared some years. And as PeeJay mentioned, including Division Two titles is rather strange since it favours teams who have been relegated from the top league. So I would remove the "overall total" row at the bottom. Autonova (talk) 19:35, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
        • I think the idea behind the "overall total" was to reach a compromise between PeeJay's suggested table, which more closely resembles the figures in that overall total, and the one favored by you and Chrisuae. But at the end of the day, we have to reflect reliable sources, which may well indicate that Division Two titles shouldn't be included. North of Eden (talk) 19:39, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
          • I am happy with the table above, the only problem I have now is that will the other articles have to be changed to have this style of table? CovCity97 (talk) 20:07, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
          • I'm happy with the "Overall total" line, since shared Community Shields are still included in the overall total by both clubs (i.e. it's not typically considered to be "half" a trophy or anything like that). My problem with the "Additional honours" section is that only Liverpool seem to consider the Football League Super Cup, the Second Division and the Lancashire Cup as honours; I don't have a problem with including the Super Cup myself, but the sources don't appear to back up the inclusion of any of those. Unfortunately, that appears to leave only the Community Shield in the "Additional" section, which would probably raise questions among editors who are just passing through the article. A significant number of sources include it, so why not include it in the main body? By the way, does it not seem odd that User:Chrisuae's only contributions to Wikipedia have been in relation to this issue? Seems like somebody has an axe to grind... – PeeJay 20:16, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
            • Our major roadblock, ultimately, is regarding what sources we should be using to determine the table's content. I think it's almost universally agreed that the material recognized by FIFA and UEFA should count toward each team's total. There is little doubt that FIFA and UEFA are reliable sources when it comes to this sort of thing. I am also inclined to say that the Community Shield, as it's recognized by both teams and by the BBC, should be included in some way. I am less certain of what to do about the other "additional honors". That said, we have to be careful here, as making value judgments on what should and what shouldn't be included in the table, when our sources are not uniform, can lead us into the realm of WP:OR. Given this, I think it's safest to include the other material, but maybe indicate that it isn't recognized by Manchester United, and maybe factor it out of the totals. As usual, this is just a suggestion, and feel free to offer alternative viewpoints. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 00:55, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
              • User:PeeJay2K3, just to set the record straight - I have no axe to grind. I just recently had time to look at editing due to having the summer off work. I edited one other page a while ago (not related to this in any way) before I set up an account. I thought the change I made here improved the article and was uncontroversial as it was backed up by sources that Autonova had added. I think we've made progress with the help of North of Eden and CovCity97 so let's keep the discussion on topic. I agree that a significant number of sources include the Community Shield, but the most authoritative 4 sources (FIFA, UEFA, the clubs official websites) do not include it in the main body with the others, so the table reflects that. The first part of the table is from FIFA, the rest is from the clubs and other sources that list a complete set of honours won by the clubs without regard to major/minor. The Lancashire League win was in 1892 and it was a second tier competition which resulted in promotion to the First division. I thought the second draft table was a good compromise as it shows what is recognised by FIFA along with a complete list. Chrisuae (talk) 04:32, 2 August 2015 (UTC) Chrisuae
                • The Lancashire League win did not "result" in anything. Entry into The Football League was done via an election in those days; winning the Lancashire League may have strengthened Liverpool's case to join The Football League, but it certainly wasn't a direct contributory factor. Manchester United competed in the Football Alliance back then too, but even if they'd won it, I wouldn't be claiming the Alliance should be included because it was secondary to The Football League, and also because Liverpool never played in it. Comparing the clubs' successes in competitions that only one of them has played in is like comparing apples to oranges. Finally, I still don't see how FIFA and UEFA can make any claim to being the "most authoritative sources"; they may be the governing bodies for world and European football, but when their opinion regarding club honours differs from other sources, it's a bit much to say they're the most authoritative. This whole business over the Community Shield is infuriating; people claim it's not worth including because the clubs don't treat it as a proper competition, but you could say the same about the Football League Cup or even the early rounds of the FA Cup; no one would claim that either of those isn't worth including because of their historical significance, and yet Manchester United didn't even bother to enter the League Cup from 1961 to 1966. Then there are the suggestions that the Community Shield is a "glorified friendly"; in the way it is treated by some, perhaps it is, but it is glorified nonetheless. Other pre-season tournaments, such as the Carlsberg Cup listed on Liverpool's website, are organised on an ad-hoc basis by independent companies or the clubs themselves, whereas the Community Shield (like the UEFA Super Cup, the Intercontinental Cup and the FIFA Club World Cup) is organised by an official governing body of football. You have to win the Premier League or FA Cup to play in it, just like you have to win the Champions League or Europa League to play in the UEFA Super Cup. The sources that choose to denigrate the Community Shield by omitting it from clubs' lists of honours are doing so mistakenly. – PeeJay 08:38, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Ultimately, is it necessary to include the "overall total" row or column in the table? If we kept it out, and perhaps used a footnote next to the name of each competition included in the table, to explain what source/authority supports its inclusion, would this be satisfactory to all parties? North of Eden (talk) 15:18, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Is it not the overall total that indicates the relative success of each club though? As for the line-by-line sourcing, it just seems like overkill to me, but it may be necessary. – PeeJay 20:32, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
      • I like the overall total in the table. Although as we have looked at FIFA and UEFA when it comes to major honours internationally such as the Champions League, is it not worth looking at the FA to see what they regard as major honours for the domestic competitions? CovCity97 (talk) 20:51, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
        • @PeeJay2K3: My thinking behind getting rid of the overall total was that it seems to be the lynchpin of much of the contention. Certainly, it would be optimal to keep it in. @CovCity97: I think it would be worthwhile; what do others think? North of Eden (talk) 21:34, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
          • My point about the overall total row was just a suggestion to solve the division two problem, it's a minor detail for me. I'm happy with the table as it is. I've just had a look through the FA site and can't find a relevant historic honours section to refer to, but others are welcome to try. Autonova (talk) 23:53, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Talk:MLS Soccer Sunday#July 2015: This article needs additional citations for verification.[edit]

Symbol comment vote.svg – General close. See comments for reasoning.

Talk:Royce Gracie#Royce Gracie_BJJ_matches[edit]

Symbol comment vote.svg – General close. See comments for reasoning.

Talk:Zindagi (TV channel)#Moving_forward[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by Manoflogan on 05:43, 28 July 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The article in question List of programs broadcast by Zee Zindagi. The other party TheRedPenOfDoom has been trying to remove all the edits because he feels that any wiki page of networks that does not broadcast any original content should not exist. This is inspite of the fact that wikipages of networks that broadcast syndicated content are allowed to exist. The examples of that are AXN_(India)#Programs_aired_on_AXN_India ,[[22]] and List_of_programs_broadcast_by_TV_Land

"TheRedPenOfDoom" thinks that they violate WP:Coatrack. In discussion WP:Articles_for_deletion/Lists_of_programs_broadcast_by_networks, nowhere does it mention that a wiki page containing a list of syndicated shows should not exist.

For your reference, I also include his revisions https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_programs_broadcast_by_Zee_Zindagi&oldid=673316739. I request you to weigh in as to whether his constant vandalism is justified. I would also like to point out that "TheRedPenOfDoom" has been engaging in a constant edit war on numerous pages. See User_talk:TheRedPenOfDoom talk page for more details about this. I would also like to point out that he has indulged in similar behaviour in the past on far more controversial topics WP:Talk:Gamergate_controversy&diff=639886639&oldid=639885634 and so an action like this is not new for him.

Edit: Zee Zindagi is notable because it chose to broadcast programs from Pakistan. India–Pakistan_relations have been fraught with tension, wars and disputes from the time of its existence. Indian channels and content are officially banned in Pakistan and vice versa. See Indian_soap_operas_in_Pakistan and http://www.firstpost.com/india/stop-broadcast-banned-pakistani-channels-india-delhi-hc-centre-1789341.html from Pakistani and Indian perspective respectively. Zee Zindagi is the first Indian network to broadcast content produced in Pakistan to Indian audiences. That makes it notable in itself. I agree that it is a network owned by Zee Enterprises. But that does not mean that the wiki pages or wiki pages listing programming content should not exist. This is evident in the fact NBC_Sports is a wing of NBCUniversal_Television_Group. The wiki pages of each of wing of the NBCUniversal_Television_Group is allowed to exist. Many channels that broadcast syndicated content have a wiki page with a list of programs List_of_programs_broadcast_by_USA_Network#Syndicated. I have no intention for the Wiki Page to violate television guide. If "TRPOD" objects to any entries violating the rule, he can delete the entry with an appropriate comment, but it does not make sense to delete the entire wiki. Given that the other wiki pages listed above are allowed to exist, lists displayed in List_of_programs_broadcast_by_Zee_Zindagi should be allowed to exist as well. From the edit logs, it appears that only "TRPOD" seems to object, and no one else. He keeps continuing to edit the pages on the grounds of notability. He is the only wiki person, who thinks that the entries ought to be deleted because they are not "notable". Other users such as "CyphoidBomb" have updated the page. The user's only comment was all the entries should be referenced. I have no objective to that. I only object to the fact that "TRPOD" should have not have the authority to determine what entries are notable. All the entries have been listed with proper references. I have done that.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Based on his requests, I have included numerous references in my latest edits https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_programs_broadcast_by_Zee_Zindagi&oldid=673123283. I was going to add more references until he deleted all the content on the page and added a redirect to another page. I offered alternate options in the talk page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Zindagi_%28TV_channel%29#Moving_forward, but he would not consider any other suggestion.

How do you think we can help?

I would like you to weigh in as to whether List_of_programs_broadcast_by_Zee_Zindagi wiki page content should be allowed to display a list of programs broadcast by the channel. I believe that it does not violate any rules or standards, given the evidence that other wiki pages are allowed to stand. Manoflogan (talk) 22:01, 28 July 2015 (UTC)ManOfLogan


Summary of dispute by TheRedPenOfDoom[edit]

I have added Divy(a)95 (talk · contribs) and Rockcommer (talk · contribs). I am not interested in participating in a discussion to settle applications of policy and scope with one editor only to have it undone by others.

As stated on the talk page, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and provides encyclopedic information as validated by reliable third party sources. Much of the content being pushed into the articles fails basic Wikipedia content policy inappropriately being a WP:COATRACK about programs from which the supposed subject of the article has had no impact other than rebroadcasting, and in general turning Wikipedia into a free webhost and television guide for Zindagi , which itself has not really established that it is notable on its own, rather than being a wing of its parent company. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:51, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Divy(a)95[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Rockcommer[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Zindagi (TV channel)#Moving_forward discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Volunteer's Note: Welcome to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I'm neither "taking" nor opening this discussion at this time as we are waiting to see if TRPoD will choose to participate by adding a dispute summary above (and I would remind the parties that participation in moderated content dispute resolution is always voluntary, not mandatory). I note, however, that notice and discussion appear to be adequate. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:08, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

I've notified the two additional parties. — TransporterMan (TALK) 14:18, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

User talk:RobertACavendish#Republic of Aquitaine[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by WikiDan61 on 20:11, 29 July 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview RobertACavendish has been adding content in several locations about the "Republic of Aquitaine", a micronation. I have reverted several of these additions at Micronation#Alternative governments, and have rejected a "protected edit request" at List of micronations based on the fact that no reliable sources are available for this micronation.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I opened a dialog with RobertACavendish at his talk page to attempt to resolve the issue. After a brief discussion, he ended the discussion rather abruptly.

How do you think we can help?

I would like disinterested third parties to evaluate RobertACavendish's additions regarding the Republic of Aquitaine to ascertain whether they should remain or be deleted.

Summary of dispute by RobertACavendish[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

User talk:RobertACavendish#Republic of Aquitaine discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer note - While there has been discussion on a user talk page, it has not been extensive. I am not declining this case at this time, but would suggest further discussion on the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:55, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
I've found additional discussion and have linked it, above. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:01, 30 July 2015 (UTC) (DRN volunteer)
  • I would have continued the discussion at the user talk page, had RobertACavendish not closed the discussion abruptly. At that point, I felt any further commenting on the user's talk page would have been pointless, and there was a clear need for outside intervention. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 21:02, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

I am not familiar with how to respond to everything you have made notations on. However, there are a few that are lacking. Your retort to most responses have not always been kind nor professional. I ended our discussion abruptly as you have said, because we were going back and forth... and not getting anywhere. Then you basically threatened me, saying that you would would bring all this to a higher level... and anything I would post in the future, YOU would be the first to suggest it be deleted. I responded by asking you to bring this to a higher level because I think you are letting your emotions guide you in your moderation. I agreed that the one article I would attain more sources for, however I felt that my other article had merit to be listed. Hence why I ASKED YOU TO BRING THIS TO A HIGHER LEVEL.

Moderators, please look at all the corresponding texts back and forth, not just the ones that Wiki61 pulled out to make it seem as if he has been giving me all the information needed, and being nothing but helpful during this entire ordeal.

I feel taking his recommendations for the one article, and deleting it myself (so it is a non issue) shows that I am interested in abiding by the wiki standards. I ended the conversation, because he didn't want it out in the open... which I didn't know about. So I ended the conversation. Yes it was abrupt, however I didn't know how to end it any other way with out being harassed by him. RobertACavendish (talk) 20:53, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

I've moved RobertACavendish's comments to the "discussion" section where they belong.

Regarding whether my responses have been kind or professional, I will leave that to others to decide. My suggestion to Mr Cavendish about page deletion ran along these lines: he thinks his topic (the Republic of Aquitaine) is suitable for inclusion at Wikipedia, and so has scattered references to it in several places, but has not yet actually created an article about it. I feel it is not notable, and so references to it in other places is inappropriate. To resolve the question of notability once and for all, I recommended that he create the article, that I would then nominate for deletion, so that the actual notability of the topic could be discussed among a wider audience. I was not threatening him in any way, but rather suggesting an avenue to invite a wider community discussion of the topic. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 11:25, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

WikiDan61 You mentioned that one of the major conventions to us being listed in the mocronation website was that we were not recognized. I would like bring your attention to the very first thing that pops up from wikipedia when you type in micronation:Direct link--> http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/Robert_Davis/Screen%20Shot%202015-07-30%20at%209.42.58%20AM_zpsc2nryur7.png — Preceding unsigned comment added by RobertACavendish (talkcontribs) 14:02, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

@RobertACavendish: Robert, you've missed my point. Recognition isn't required to be listed as a micronation. Notability is required. And you have not demonstrated that the Republic of Aquitaine is notable. The screenshot you posted is the result of a Google search (not a Wikipedia search), and it shows that the most prominent result of a Google search on the term "micronation" is the Wikipedia article on the topic. This is quite common; Wikipedia pages are often the most prominent search result in Google. How does this prove that the Republic of Aquitaine is in any way notable? The point about sovereignty or recognition is moot; the question to be answered for inclusion at Wikipedia is the question of notability. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 14:13, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

WikiDan61 I'm sorry but if you go back over all of your notes from yesterday the biggest contention was that we were not a full recognized state or nation. You then mentioned that that was an article from google. Here are the first couple paragraphs from the official wikipedia micronation website. You did also say in our correspondence yesterday that there were other micronations listed on the main wiki page that had lass citing or sources. I have not seen any of those taken down. So if we have more valid citations (roughly 8 - and yes some were from press releases that you don't accept), I find myself perplexed why our article was removed. I do understand the need for an independent wiki page, to be added unto the listing of nations. However this is not the article I am questioning.
first couple paragraphs on main wiki page of machinations: A micronation, sometimes referred to as a model country or new country project, is an entity that claims to be an independent nation or state but is not officially recognized by world governments or major international organizations.

Micronations are distinguished from imaginary countries and from other kinds of social groups (such as eco-villages, campuses, tribes, clans, sects, and residential community associations) by expressing a formal and persistent, even if unrecognized, claim of sovereignty over some physical territory. RobertACavendish (talk) 14:36, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

@RobertACavendish: Robert, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the question to be answered is not recognition, but notability. If I gave any responses that muddied that point, I apologize. As for the presence of other micronation articles that do not meet muster, they have not been taken down because I have not chosen to pursue that activity. If you wish to do so, have at it. For now, I think that you and I have made our positions clear, and we should allow the volunteers who monitor this board to review the issue and voice their opinions. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 14:44, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

WikiDan61 As you requested I re added the information that you deleted. I would like others to take a look at it and see if it belongs: Robert McClenon the direct link is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation#Alternative_governments RobertACavendish (talk) 14:52, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

I, like Robert McClenon, am a regular volunteer here at DRN. Let me note that while I see the problem with this material, WikiDan61's standard for it is not correct. Notability is only a standard for whether articles should or should not exist as a whole, but as the lede of the Notability guideline specifically says, notability is not the test for whether information should or should not be included in an article. That being the case, whether the information could stand alone as an article if it survived a deletion discussion certainly might indicate that it could also be included in an article, but its failure to survive a deletion discussion would not indicate that it could not be included in an article. The basic tests of whether something should or should not be included in an article are Neutral point of view, Verifiability, No original research, What Wikipedia is not, and Biographies of living persons. Based upon the sources cited in the deleted material from the talk page discussion, I think that these inclusions — which have no non-PRIMARY reliable sources — fail the UNDUE subsection of the Neutral Point of View policy and the NOTSOAP subsection of the What Wikipedia is Not policy and should not be included here. Moreover, the currently cited sources cannot even be used as a PRIMARY source since they fairly plainly violate the SPS section of the Verifiability Policy, since their claims to sovereignty and, indeed, existence are both (a) exceptional claims and (b) claims about third parties which cause the ABOUTSELF exceptions to SPS not to apply. I see no reason to believe that, based on the current sourcing, this material can appear in Wikipedia. Whether it might be included if supported by sources acceptable to Wikipedia cannot be determined until those sources are added. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:27, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

I believe the issue to be resolved for the time being. A third editor (Yopie) who has not previously been involved in (or, as far as I know, aware of) this dispute, has also reverted the addition of the Republic of Aquitaine material to Micronation, and left a note at Mr Cavendish's talk page. Mr Cavendish has replied to the note, but has not further tried to restore the material. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 11:23, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
Let me note further that even if a standalone article were attempted so as to justify Aquitaine's inclusion in a standalone list containing only entries which have standalone articles, it needs to be remembered that under the Primary source policy that neither articles nor large sections of articles can be based solely on primary sources and also remembered that the Independence of sources subsection of the Notability guideline for organizations says that the "primary test of notability is whether people independent of the subject itself (or its manufacturer, creator, or vendor) have actually considered the company, corporation, product or service notable enough that they have written and published non-trivial, non-routine works that focus upon it" and goes on to say that anything produced by the organization itself, specifically including websites and press releases, cannot be considered in making that determination. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:31, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Statewide opinion_polling_for_the_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_2016#Fix_the_map[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Prcc27 on 04:19, 31 July 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

There were two polls conducted in Washington both within a day of each other. The PPP poll says Clinton has a 33% lead (margin of error: ± 5%) and the Gravis Marketing poll that was taken the next day says she has a 9% lead (margin of error: ± 6%). There is a map on the article that says Clinton's lead in Washington is less than 10%. But I wanted to stripe Washington with two colors to reflect that there is also another poll that says she has a 30-49% lead. The other user thinks that only the most recent poll should be used (even if it was taken the day after the second most recent poll), and striping should only be reserved for ties.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We've been discussing it at the article's talk page.

How do you think we can help?

I think we need you guys to weigh in on whether or not striping Washington is appropriate. Also, you guys might be able to find a way we can compromise.

Summary of dispute by Nitroxium[edit]

As explained in the talk page, the article for the democratic primaries has been following the same format as the republicans in using the most recent polls for coloring the map. Prcc27 proposes we utilize stripes on the maps to show what he considers to be "conflicting polls." However, stripes in the statewide opinion polls (Repub and democrat) are being used for virtual ties. Beyond this, saying that the two polls are conflicting would be WP:OR as we would be making our on conclusions on what can be interpreted from the polls. What we can do and have done in this case is put a footnote saying that the colors on the map may be slightly innacurate due to margin of error which is an undisputed fact. However, both Washington polls that Prcc27 points out cannot be considered conflicting due to the very same margin of errors.

In the talk page of the article I have provided an example of why we cannot conclude through the polls that they are conflicting without it falling into WP:OR.

"First, you can't compare the results in PPP with the polls for Gravis including Elizabeth Warren. People could very easily switch from Clinton to Warren if she was an option in the primaries and there is absolutely no conflict there. Therefore, we must compare the results of PPP with the Gravis results WITHOUT Warren. In the PPP poll, she has 57% with a margin of error of 5%, meaning it could be a support of 52%. In the Gravis poll, she has a support of 45% with a margin of error of 6%, meaning it could be 51%. Likewise with Sanders, in PPP he has 24% which could be 29% and in Gravis he has 36% which could be 30%. Hence why if there was a change of 1% of support from Clinton to Sanders during the next few days (which is completely plausible), these two polls are not conflicting. I must add, the Gravis poll without Warren still includes De Blasio, which means there doesn't even have to be a 1% change of support in the next days. Clinton could have lost 2% to De Blasio in the Gravis poll. There's many possibilities."

Talk:Statewide opinion_polling_for_the_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_2016#Fix_the_map discussion[edit]

@Prcc27 and Nitroxium: I'm seeing extensive talk page discussion and am happy to take this case. I'll do a little more brushing up on the issues before asking a few questions. Thanks much, North of Eden (talk) 18:09, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

I am going to be working on concluding the English football dispute above, but once that's concluded I will give my full attention to this issue. I plan to put up some substantive comments tomorrow morning in this section. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 22:03, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
@Prcc27 and Nitroxium: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the basic issue is whether stripes should indicate conflicting polling results or ties between candidates. In this event, I think it's crucial to look at the Republican primary page and at precedent for this page. The same-sex marriage page may be helpful as a guide, but opinion polling on social issues and candidate polling are pretty different things. North of Eden (talk) 19:04, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
  • They are different things, but the issue the same-sex marriage map had is the same one the Democratic map has. I believe one user even said is was "fraud" to leave out conflicting polls on that map. It does take longer for a state to trend a certain way on social issues than opinion of candidates, but it's near impossible for a candidate's lead to change drastically in one day just like it is near impossible for a state to change drastically on social issues (with a few exceptions like President Obama coming out in favor of same-sex marriage) in 1 month. Just because the poll that says Clinton has a 9% lead was taken 1 day after a poll said she has a 33% lead doesn't mean her lead is less than 10%. I don't know if I'd call it "fraud" to leave out stripes for conflicting results, but it's certainly misleading- whether it's on a map for opinion polling on social issues or a map for opinion polling on candidates. It definitely won't hurt the map to provide more information- it would actually help the map. Prcc27 (talk) 20:28, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Again, saying they are conflicting polls is WP:OR, you are coming to your own conclusions about the polls. And the reason it's the same map is first of all, because you changed the map we were using before. Second of all, that is a basic map with no coloring on wikimedia that any editor can pick up and start using. You added that due to margin of errors, the colors may not reflect reality completely as a footnote and that is the step we had to take. Anything else would be WP:OR. We are following the format the republicans use. Nitroxium (talk) 03:34, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Pardon me, but unfortunately I don't even know what your second and third sentences are referring to.. Nonetheless, I feel like what I said on the article's talk page applies to your statement on here too: "You already explained to me that both polls are accurate with each other within 1%, but that's if and only if Clinton has a 21% lead which the map does not have Washington colored as. And it's not the polls that are conflicting, it's that the map doesn't take into account the margin of error, and quite frankly a footnote isn't enough. If readers see Washington striped with two colors and they see the margin of error footnote- they will be more likely to scroll down to find out why Washington is striped and to find out what those margin of errors for Washington are. Then they will be able to come to the conclusion that Clinton has about a 21% lead (which is pretty much what you concluded from the polls yourself) or they could come to the conclusion that Clinton does in fact have a less than 10% lead because the poll that says so is more recent. Regardless, purposely leaving out information on the map adds WP:UNDUE bias and may be fraudulent." Prcc27 (talk) 04:24, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I understand concerns about WP:OR; specifically, we can veer close to WP:SYNTH by comparing poll results. That said, I would encourange all to take a look at WP:What SYNTH is not. It's not considered original research to simply summarize an obvious truth; at least to me, conflicting polls would fall within that category, so long as the statement is free of any opinionated analysis. We still have the issue of how striping ought to be used on the map, and I'm interested in hearing more about that (and any additional discussion about WP:OR and simiilar issues, of course). Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 15:12, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Well the current map isn't set up for ties because unlike the GOP map- the Democratic map goes into detail about what percentage a candidate is leading by. If let's say Sanders and Clinton were tied in Vermont it wouldn't make sense to stripe Vermont "Sanders ahead, <10%" and "Clinton ahead, <10%" because neither candidate is ahead- both are tied. Instead, we could simply add a new color for tied states like blue or red. Prcc27 (talk) 03:39, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Yishai Schlissel#West_Bank[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Irn on 00:06, 1 August 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The text, as it currently stands, refers to the "West Bank, also known as the Judea and Samaria Area." Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (West Bank), this should be simply "West Bank". User:Zigzig20s thinks there is should be special exception to the guideline (which represents a consensus reached after an ArbCom case on the issue) because of the context.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Just the talk: page.

How do you think we can help?

We've come to an impasse.

Summary of dispute by Zigzig20s[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Yishai Schlissel#West_Bank discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer note - I am accepting this case for discussion.

It appears that the question is whether to add the phrase after West Bank, "also known as the Judea and Samaria area". Is there any other issue? If the issue is whether to add the phrase "also known as the Judea and Samaria area", and there is a naming convention listed above, what is the reason for disregarding the naming convention? The naming convention, which was developed under ArbCom guidance in order to avoid persistent conflict, says that in modern references, "Judea and Samaria" should only be used in special contexts. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:21, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

These are very precisely the arguments myself and irn have made to zigzig. He has not actually given any reason why they are not sufficient for him. Personally, him posting on this board seems to me like a transparent stalling tactic ("Pleasedo not revert until the dispute resolution has been completed"). Circéus (talk) 08:37, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Just to clarify, I started this discussion here before you became involved because I was so frustrated with Zigig. Zigzig has yet to participate here. -- Irn (talk) 16:09, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Volunteer note - I intend to check this page at least every 24 hours. I expect all editors to check it at least every 48 hours. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:55, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Spiro Koleka[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Burridheut on 10:21, 1 August 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The dispute is about these points:

1. They write that "Himara is a predominantly Greek region" This is incorrect, I gave official links to the National Census disproving it. Less than 25% are Greek. BUT, besides being incorrect, this is totally irrelevant and unrelated to the article. This article is neither about Himara nor Greece. It is about a man that was borth in neither of these two places. Therefore the two above-mentioned users were asked to remove this text as irrelevant, but they did not, they only used "Undo" after I did following their failure to provide historic backup for the contested references that they use. (Too easy to click "Undo" for them it seams)

2.They claim (from 4 books authored by the same person - Mr. Petiffer, a so-called expert on Balkan matters.) that Spiro Koleka was born in a ethnic Greek family. But this is entirely incorrect! His gravestone is written in Albanian letters and word-forming (not Greek), in addition there is a page on a peer-reviewed scientific encyclopedia (The Encyclopedic Dictionary of Albania, 1985, http://imgur.com/f7kLRxs) that explains that Spiro was born in a patriotic (meaning native) family. Also two more newspapers articles corroborate the same story. One written by a childhood friend and long time colleague (http://imgur.com/mAN9iW1 and http://imgur.com/gz1Srfm) and one written by the leaders of the political party he was a member of. They knew him better than someone that does not even care about minute details like this (Mr. petiffer). He also does not have any references in his books on the source of information about Spiro Koleka. I also challenged the two users mentioned above to go to the village of Vuno facebook group and ask the members (1300+, many are elderly people) there of the ethnicity of Spiro Koleka. This is not scientific, but if they really want to know the truth and don't believe that I am a family member (as if I collect marriage certificates from dead people born 107 years ago...)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have provided links to official sources (government websites), I have made pictures of Spiro Koleka's gravestone, I have provided scans of scientific publications (Encyclopedic material), I have scanned and posted Spiro Koleka's marriage certificate, scanned old newspaper articles from different sources and have discussed in great length providing knowledge and reason on the subject matter.

How do you think we can help?

Remove any text that is inaccurate. Do not consider material that has no official/historic references. This is a biography, the simple historical facts (birthday, birthplace, fathers name, ethnicity) about a man are not up for negotiation. They are what they are. If after studying the evidences provided, the dispute resolution board is unable to decide, then the texts that are controversial should be removed. These are easy to spot as it has the word "Greek" in it.

Summary of dispute by Zoupan[edit]

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Burridheut (talk · contribs) thinks he WP:OWNS the article. He is anti-Greek, downplaying the community in Albania, and most often uses terms such as "separatist propaganda". He claims four different references were written by one person, but has not proven this, or most importantly — refuted what they say. He thinks that the dubious 2011 census and the grave stone's lettering are WP:RS for WP:SYNTH.--Zoupan 13:13, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Alexikoua[edit]

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Summary of dispute by Resnjari[edit]

The issue is roughly this. Spiro Koleka was a politician who held various high ranking positions within Enver Hoxha’s communist regime. Within the article it is stated that Spiro Koleka was of Greek origin. The sources used such as James Pettifer and others (which also cite Pettifer as a source origin) base this upon Koleka having been born in Himara (town) and due to the ethnicity of that town being Greek have drawn the conclusion that Koleka was Greek. Also the collection of villages (Orthodox Greek and Orthodox Albanian) in this small coastal region also colloquially bear the name of Himara due to Himara town being the biggest settlement (However in Albanian the region is known amongst Albanian speakers as Bregdet or the Coast by the Sea). Koleka was however born in Vuno village. This village in peer reviewed material is identified as being an Albanian Orthodox village or inhabited by Albanian Orthodox speakers (Nitsiakos and Kallivretakis, sources provided in Spiro Koleka talk page). And it is here where the dilemma lies. The main bone of contention, for editor Burridheut for example is that apart from originating from Vuno and having Koleka a relative, he feels that the sources have misinterpreted or simply just gotten the issue wrong regarding Koleka’s ethnicity. For Greek editors such as Alexikoua and Zoupan, the matter is that as Pettifer has published this material in peer reviewed works and as such those works referencing Koleka’s Greek identity should remain. They have said to Burridheut to provide peer reviewed sources that can be additionally added to say that other sources also state he is Albanian.

Burridheut has not provided sources that would pass Wikipedia guidelines for determining a good source (e.g. a page about Koleka from an Albanian encyclopedia published during the Communist era. Communist era publications need to be treated with caution and one a one by one basis according to author and also due to regime interference at times in scholarship). I have said to Burridheut to get Albanian sources (post 1992) that can be additionally added and hence the Albanian position can be represented and it goes for other Albanian editors (If time is needed then fine and the issue can be revisited later only with those sources provided however). Burridheut though does not want any reference to Greek origins to remain in the article, however no peer reviewed literature has been provided at this point in time to correct the error and call Pettifer into question. Nor has Pettifer retracted in any of his works this statement about Koleka (and probably wont as it might call into question his scholarship). However from my part, the Greek origin material can remain as it is from a peer reviewed source and is thus in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines. My issue with the article is this part of the sentence. "Himara, a predominantly Greek region" because it comes after the Vuno and implies that Vuno is inhabited by Greeks (when peer reviewed literature does not say this) especially when some of the sources have mixed Himara town with Himara region regarding Koleka's birthplace which was Vuno. If it stays however, the additional "Orthodox Albanian village (Kaliivretakis +Nitisiakos)" for Vuno needs to be added so neutrality is maintained considering that the sources are problematic regarding even Koleka’s birthplace. Beyond that things are fine as they are in line with Wikipedia guidelines.Resnjari (talk) 03:39, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Spiro Koleka discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer note - I am neither accepting nor declining this case at this time. There has been extended discussion on the article talk page. I have added an editor to the list of parties and have notified the non-filing editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:01, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Beginning of discussion[edit]

I am accepting this case for moderated discussion. I don't know anything about the subject matter other than the article is the biography of a former Albanian communist politician. There appear to be questions about what to say was the ethnicity of the politician and what to say was the ethnicity of the region of Albania that he resided in. Are there any other questions? Would each of the editors please state briefly what he or she thinks is the issue? Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not on contributors. Do not reply to each other at this time. Address your summary to me as the moderator. Once we have better identified what the issues are, perhaps we can talk about improving the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:32, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Talk:YoungStartup Ventures[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by Truthbeeetold on 22:28, 2 August 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

1. this article has been created with the sole intent of portraying this company in a negative light. the first "article" referenced is not even an article. it is an email exchange and opinions of someone that was allowed the forum to bad mouth this company. Why would Wikipedia allow for this to happen?

2. the piece has many facilities, both based on what the company charges and how they conduct business

3. the top section is "criticism" even though the company has been around for over 15 years, has tons of testimonials, video highlights and world class keynotes, other REAL articles yet this is the best description?

4. why should this company even be listed on wikipedia?

5. why is it that some companies can have a proper description written and then be closed to edits, while these vandals can write whatever they want?


Have you tried to resolve this previously?

have modified to something that is a real company description, with ought this unfair tone of slandering this company. this is really not something wikipedia should allow people to do. it doesn't make sense.

How do you think we can help?

please step in and take a stand against this crime. it is unfair.

1. please change your rules. it is not ok that anyone can simply g in a create a company profile. you need to realize that people are trying to harm their competitors with this and the fact that people are hiring themselves out for writing articles doesn't help.

there should be strict guidelines of how a company profile must be written. if you allow a "criticism" section then it should exist by every single companies profile

Summary of dispute by Bgwhite[edit]

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Summary of dispute by Magioladitis[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by yosefemet[edit]

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Summary of dispute by Zach Vega[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:YoungStartup Ventures discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer note - There have been two recent statements by editors, which is not extended discussion. This filing would appear to be premature, and the editors should attempt to discuss at the talk page. I am not declining this case at this time, but I am recommending that it be declined (without prejudice if discussion is unproductive). Robert McClenon (talk) 00:09, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Volunteer note - Wikipedia is not a directory and does not have company profiles. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia which (almost) anyone can edit, and it has articles about subjects that are considered notable and are written from a neutral point of view. This dispute resolution noticeboard is intended to resolve disputes over content, including over neutrality. This does appear to be a dispute over neutrality, but should first be discussed on the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:09, 3 August 2015 (UTC)