Wikipedia:Deletion review

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Deletion review (DRV) is for reviewing speedy deletions and outcomes of deletion discussions. This includes appeals to delete pages kept after a prior discussion.

If you are considering a request for a deletion review, please read the "Purpose" section below to make sure that is what you wish to do. Then, follow the instructions below.

Purpose

Deletion review may be used:

  1. if someone believes the closer of a deletion discussion interpreted the consensus incorrectly;
  2. if a speedy deletion was done outside of the criteria or is otherwise disputed;
  3. if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page;
  4. if a page has been wrongly deleted with no way to tell what exactly was deleted; or
  5. if there were substantial procedural errors in the deletion discussion or speedy deletion.

Deletion review should not be used:

  1. because of a disagreement with the deletion discussion's outcome that does not involve the closer's judgment (a page may be renominated after a reasonable timeframe);
  2. (This point formerly required first consulting the deleting admin if possible. As per this discussion an editor is not required to consult the closer of a deletion discussion (or the deleting admin for a speedy deletion) before starting a deletion review. However doing so is good practice, and can often save time and effort for all concerned. Notifying the closer is required.)
  3. to point out other pages that have or have not been deleted (as each page is different and stands or falls on its own merits);
  4. to challenge an article's deletion via the proposed deletion process, or to have the history of a deleted page restored behind a new, improved version of the page, called a history-only undeletion (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these);
  5. to repeat arguments already made in the deletion discussion;
  6. to argue technicalities (such as a deletion discussion being closed ten minutes early);
  7. to request that previously deleted content be used on other pages (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these requests);
  8. to attack other editors, cast aspersions, or make accusations of bias (such requests may be speedily closed);
  9. for uncontroversial undeletions, such as undeleting a very old article where substantial new sources have subsequently arisen. Use Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion instead. (If any editor objects to the undeletion, then it is considered controversial and this forum may be used.)
  10. to ask for permission to write a new version of a page which was deleted, unless it has been protected against creation. In general you don't need anyone's permission to recreate a deleted page, if your new version does not qualify for deletion then it will not be deleted.

Copyright violating, libelous, or otherwise prohibited content will not be restored.

Instructions

Before listing a review request, please:

  1. Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision.
  2. Check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.

Steps to list a new deletion review

 
1.

Click here and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in page with the name of the page, xfd_page with the name of the deletion discussion page (leave blank for speedy deletions), and reason with the reason why the discussion result should be changed. For media files, article is the name of the article where the file was used, and it shouldn't be used for any other page. For example:

{{subst:drv2
|page=File:Foo.png
|xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png
|article=Foo
|reason=
}} ~~~~
2.

Inform the editor who closed the deletion discussion by adding the following on their user talk page:

{{subst:DRV notice|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~
3.

For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach <noinclude>{{Delrev|date=2024 April 18}}</noinclude> to the top of the page under review to inform current editors about the discussion.

4.

Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion:

  • If the deletion discussion's subpage name is the same as the deletion review's section header, use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 April 18}}</noinclude>
  • If the deletion discussion's subpage name is different from the deletion review's section header, then use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 April 18|page=SECTION HEADER AT THE DELETION REVIEW LOG}}</noinclude>
 

Commenting in a deletion review

Any editor may express their opinion about an article or file being considered for deletion review. In the deletion review discussion, please type one of the following opinions preceded by an asterisk (*) and surrounded by three apostrophes (''') on either side. If you have additional thoughts to share, you may type this after the opinion. Place four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your entry, which should be placed below the entries of any previous editors:

  • Endorse the original closing decision; or
  • Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
  • List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
  • Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear; or
  • Allow recreation of the page if new information is presented and deemed sufficient to permit recreation.
  • Some consider it a courtesy, to other DRV participants, to indicate your prior involvements with the deletion discussion or the topic.

Remember that deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate.

The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.

Temporary undeletion

Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}} template, leaving the history for review by everyone. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.

Closing reviews

A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days, unless the nomination was a proposed deletion. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented.

If the administrator closes the deletion review as no consensus, the outcome should generally be the same as if the decision was endorsed. However:

  • If the decision under appeal was a speedy deletion, the page(s) in question should be restored, as it indicates the deletion was not uncontroversial. The closer, or any editor, may then proceed to nominate the page at the appropriate deletion discussion forum, if they so choose.
  • If the decision under appeal was an XfD close, the closer may, at their discretion, relist the page(s) at the relevant XfD.

Ideally all closes should be made by an administrator to ensure that what is effectively the final appeal is applied consistently and fairly but in cases where the outcome is patently obvious or where a discussion has not been closed in good time it is permissible for a non-admin (ideally a DRV regular) to close discussions. Non-consensus closes should be avoided by non-admins unless they are absolutely unavoidable and the closer is sufficiently experienced at DRV to make that call. (Hint: if you are not sure that you have enough DRV experience then you don't.)

Speedy closes

  • Objections to a proposed deletion can be processed immediately as though they were a request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion
  • Where the closer of a deletion discussion realizes their close was wrong, and nobody has endorsed, the closer may speedily close as overturn. They should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
  • Where the nominator of a DRV wishes to withdraw their nomination, and nobody else has recommended any outcome other than endorse, the nominator may speedily close as "endorse" (or ask someone else to do so on their behalf).
  • Certain discussions may be closed without result if there is no prospect of success (e.g. disruptive nominations, if the nominator is repeatedly nominating the same page, or the page is listed at WP:DEEPER). These will usually be marked as "administrative close".



18 April 2024

17 April 2024

Quantum economics

Quantum economics (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

The article was proposed for deletion, I contested it but a decision was made, without consensus or further discussion, to merge with another article Econophysics. As explained on the Econophysics talk page, this is not an appropriate merger. I therefore ask that the decision be postponed until there has been a suitable discussion period. Sjm3 (talk) 12:47, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse. The appellant is incorrect in all their claims. There was a full week of discussion, as required, and there was clear consensus. All agreed to the merge, except the appellant, who is also the author of the page, and whose 113 edits on en-wiki are almost all related to that article. A classic case of WP:SPA who is WP:NOTHERE to improve an encyclopedia, but likely to promote their own research. Owen× 13:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The claims I am making are that (a) there was no further discussion, and (b) this is not an appropriate merger. For (a) the editor says there was a full week of discussion, but there was no reply to my comment. This therefore seems a narrow definition of discussion, and in particular there was no further discussion of my comment. Further to the remark about my editing history, a decision about maintaining a page should surely be based on the content of the article. Note also that the article cites work by some 20 researchers. For (b), this is not an appropriate merger because quantum economics is not considered to be a branch of econophysics. The merge decision appears to be based on a single paper (and the only one published in the last five years) which mentions "quantum econophysics" in the title (Arioli and Valente, 2021). That 2021 paper in turn seems to have got the name "quantum econophysics" either from an unpublished paper from 2007 (Guevara, 2007) or a chapter in a 2014 book (Schinckus, 2014). More recent works do not appear to use this phrase. Quantum economics is distinct from econophysics because it does not focus exclusively on things like financial statistics and time series, but also considers broader effects from quantum social science such as quantum cognition and quantum game theory. Sjm3 (talk) 14:52, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse - The discussion was open for the requisite period of time and the closure as merge is in line with the consensus. where one of the keep !votes agreed that a merge was also okay. -- Whpq (talk) 15:05, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Please see my reply to the previous comment. The consensus excluded the author and there was no attempt to discuss with the author. I find it hard to understand how it is okay to merge one article with another when the author is giving specific reasons why the merge of the two subjects is inappropriate. Sjm3 (talk) 15:22, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You seem to be under the impression that the author of an article gets a veto on anything done with that article. I'm sorry, but that is not how Wikipedia works. There is no WP:OWNERship of pages here. Your opinion about that article carries as much weight as the opinion of anyone else about it. Or possibly less, seeing as you are woefully unaware of our policies and guidelines, and seem to be here solely to promote the subject matter of that article. Owen× 15:29, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Please read my reply again. I am not claiming that authors should get a veto. I am saying it is inappropriate to merge an article with another, without further discussion, when the author is giving valid reasons why the fields are not the same. For the statements that I am "solely here to promote the subject" and not "to improve an encyclopedia", and so on, please note that the article is written in good faith, and also that Wikipedia benefits from the input of both specialists and generalists. Sjm3 (talk) 15:39, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse per the above, with no prejudice against it being split out again when sufficient reliable sources have been identified such that it will no longer fit (either based on size or topic attributes) with the recently-targeted article. Jclemens (talk) 15:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Again, I have given reasons why the field is distinct from econophysics, here and on the page itself. What I had expected from the discussion process was that I would be told why the article was being deleted, and would be given a chance to address these concerns by answering comments and improving the manuscript. Instead a decision was simply made to merge with a page suggested by one of the editors. Rather than immediately merge the article with something inappropriate, I would therefore request the editors tell me what the article needs in order to work as a stand-alone article, and give me a reasonable opportunity to make those changes and additions. Further to "sufficient reliable sources" note that I have now added several, including some from a new journal Quantum Economics and Finance from Sage Publications. Sjm3 (talk) 16:06, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse as a valid closure and as the correct result:
      • Either Merge or Relist would have been valid conclusions by the closer.
      • The appellant says that the decision to Merge was made without consensus or further discussion. There was consensus. The reason that there was no further discussion is that the originator responded on day 6 out of the usual 7 days for discussion. The closer was not required to Relist because the originator only edits sporadically.
      • I'm a chemist, not an econophysicist, so I read the original article and the article that it was merged into. I concur with User:XOR'easter (who is a physicist) that quantum economics and econophysics are a variety of different related topics, and that there is no need for a separate article for each of them. So I would have !voted Merge if I had taken part in the AFD.
      • In other words, it is a valid merge. Econophysics is very much a mixed bag, and quantum economics is another element to go in the mixed bag.
      • DRV is not AFD Round 2, but the appellant is using DRV as AFD Round 2, and so is getting the further discussion that they requested (even if this is a misuse of DRV). So we have reason to know what a Relist would have done, which is to support the Merge. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse as participant. A consensus was arrived at in the ordinary way and correctly evaluated. We're done here. XOR'easter (talk) 18:53, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse was very clearly a merge result here. SportingFlyer T·C 21:06, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse . Content headed for merger from an AfD can be rejected at the target article as an editorial decision. AfD can't decree insertion of unwanted content into an article if the consensus of editors on that article's talk page is to reject the addition. Therefore, this should be resolved editorially, and a deletion review is not needed. The consensus was to merge, but the practical outcome could be simple redirection. It is worth noting that this is one of the problems with using AfD to merge and with AFD merge outcomes. It's not a problem with the real and true merger process because that process considers the target article and is normally conducted on the target article's talk page (for this reason), while "merge AfDs" almost never seriously consider the target articles, as there is too strong of a focus on deletion/retention of the nominated article and it's difficult for participants to adopt the correct perspective that merging is keeping content.Alalch E. 01:13, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse consensus was clear to merge. However, relisting would have also been acceptable due to reasonable keep votes being present and relatively low attendance. What specific content is to be merged can be discussed at the target’s talk page. Frank Anchor 12:33, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

13 April 2024

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Long Beach Township Beach Patrol (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

This beach has been established as one of the oldest and largest in America per the Philadelphia Inquirer. (https://www.inquirer.com/philly/living/travel/shoreguide/20150711_Here_to_save_the_day.html) 73.150.197.202 (talk) 19:06, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse. The only P&G-based views on that AfD other than Merge were Delete. The merged article was about the beach patrol, so I'm not even sure how the appellant's comment about the beach pertains to this. Owen× 22:20, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse; Deletion review isn't a re-do of a deletion discussion. No assertion has been made that the deletion was improperly closed. See WP:DRVPURPOSE. I've looked at the link (which is now a redirect) at archive.org [1]. There is a single sentence mention in the article. This is well below WP:SIGCOV. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:36, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm sensing that this editor is new to the process and might benefit from mentoring or coaching, for example about draftification and AfC, even if there's nothing out of process with this AfD. Jclemens (talk) 00:21, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy endorse. The nominator isn't saying anything of relevance in a deletion review and there's nothing to discuss. Help can be offered to the editor on their talk page, at the Teahouse etc.—Alalch E. 02:11, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse - The appellant has said nothing about any defect in the close and not even anything about notability of the beach patrol. The statement about the beach is not about the beach patrol. Registering an account should precede any mentoring or coaching of the appellant. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:45, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse correctly closed, and the source presented in the DRV doesn't really do anything to suggest a mistaken outcome. SportingFlyer T·C 03:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse as closer, don't see how else I was meant to close that. The new information presented in my opinion does nothing to change the current status quo. Daniel (talk) 09:54, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quite a bit of sockpuppetry, both at this now-redirect and at its target. Not that that should affect the outcome here, but just sayin'. —Cryptic 21:28, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

12 April 2024

Century Financial LLC

Century Financial LLC (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Page was speedily deleted. This a a new articles, new content, new sources. Pls could you restore Francisjk2020 (talk) 08:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse deletion as a page previously deleted via an AfD. I cannot view the original or recreated article, or if as the proposer asserts, it had "new content, new sources". I trust that JBW would have done reasonable due diligence on comparing with the AfD version before proceeding with the CSD. It seems the title of the page was changed too, maybe to try and get it accepted through the backdoor, but I note from the history of the AfD article that it has already been recreated several times without merit. Bungle (talkcontribs) 08:43, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • If it's a new article with new content, then use the AFC process to have it evaluated on its own merits. Sneaking around create protection ("salting") is not behavior consistent with good faith. While it may be a mistake from ignorance, anyone who is going to write a policy-compliant article on a corporation should know better. Jclemens (talk) 08:55, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I deleted the article. Unfortunately at present I am short of time, but in a few hours I may possibly come back and say a few more things. For the present, though, I'll say this. This article has been created numerous times and deleted. It has been the subject of at least two deletion discussions, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Century Financial Consultancy and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Century Financial, each of which produced a "delete" outcome. All of the numerous creations of the article have been substantially similar, and the concerns raised in the two deletion discussions substantially apply to all of them. There are different views among editors as to how near to identical a new version of a page has to be to a deleted version to qualify for a G4 deletion, but usually if a deletion of mine is questioned, I give a generous interpretation, and undelete the article if I think there is any reasonable case for saying it's different, with the possibility of another AfD if appropriate. However, there has to be a limit to this. G4 is intended to prevent wasting editors' time by repeating at a new AfD the same arguments as have already been discussed. That purpose is not achieved if an editor repeatedly creates substantially similar articles, but makes some changes each time so they can say "It's a different article, so it can't be deleted without everybody spending more time discussing it again, and going through the same arguments yet again." This is unambiguously one of a string of attempts, at least some of them by one person, to establish an article which has repeatedly been discussed and found to be unsuitable. There has to be a time to say "enough is enough; we are not going to keep discussing essentially the same article endlessly." The history of the article strongly suggests paid editing; if so the owners of the business would be well advised to put their money into advertising it on some other platform. JBW (talk) 10:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do not allow recreation and salt [blacklist 09:53, 15 April 2024 (UTC)] also this name. This is salted at two other names after two AfDs and tendentious recreations. Require submission of a draft suitable for a review at DRV for recreation. There is no need to endorse or overturn the G4 deletion, that's not the important aspect here.—Alalch E. 10:42, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is the third title this user has created this content at, after the previous ones were deleted and salted. It wasn't a "new article with new content"; the two-bullet-point Timeline section was removed, two sentences were added, and a handful of new references with exactly the same problems as the previous ones were piled on to anodyne statements already cited to four or five press releases. We shouldn't be looking at restoring this for yet another one-sided afd; we should be looking at blacklisting the title and blocking the author. —Cryptic 10:55, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse and keep salted, along with any other title-gaming variants. The main difference between this version and the one deleted in the last AfD is that this one includes, It was voted as one of the best places to work in the GCC, while the older one had, It was voted as one of the best workplaces for women to work in the GCC. The cited source clearly says "for women". I think it is warranted to run a CU on the editors involved; the whole thing smells of WP:PAID. Owen× 12:48, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have just discovered that the same editor previously took this to Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2023 December 19, where deletion was endorsed. I think this reinforces still further the view that enough is enough, and Francisjk2020 needs to accept that consensus is against them, and drop their persistent and disruptive attempts to get round that consensus. JBW (talk) 12:56, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think you're being unrealistic here. Francisjk2020 likely gets paid to keep the page in place, and will not stop until they and their socks get banned. Our best course of action is to waste as little time as possible on these disruptions. Owen× 14:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @OwenX: I can only assume that your comment "I think you're being unrealistic here" means that you took my comment "needs to accept..." as implying that I thought that was likely to happen. My "needs to" was "should" rather than "is likely to". JBW (talk) 15:54, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Got it. Owen× 16:01, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse and close as disruption. Since it's clear SALT doesn't work, time to look at a block since Francis doesn't respect that their opinion doesn't overrule consensus. Star Mississippi 13:14, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse and salt clearly tendentious editing. SportingFlyer T·C 06:31, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse - This is an obvious case of the gaming of names. If the appellant really thinks that the subject satisfies corporate notability, they are more likely to get an article approved sometime by submitting a draft than by trying to change the title. The company is more likely to get the Internet coverage it wants by paying to improve its own web site, which is under its control, than by clumsy efforts to manipulate Wikipedia. Consider Title Blacklist. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:29, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse but do not salt or place it in the title blacklist. There is no way for this to have its own article. The reason I am opposing salting or blacklisting is because it is really harmful. Toadette (Let's talk together!) 14:16, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Harmful to whom? How? I don't think a title blacklisting is necessary because someone should just block Francisjk2020 as WP:NOTHERE instead, but it wouldn't cause any harm. * Pppery * it has begun... 04:32, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The DRV applicant failed to notify me (as the closer of the XfD discussion), as required by step 2 of the DRV instructions. Notwithstanding this, for me this is a pretty clear endorse deletion and salting as closer - and the salting should absolutely be maintained. I cannot understand the comment immediately above me which suggests salting is "really harmful", with no elucidation as to how said harm is caused. Daniel (talk) 07:19, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I strongly oppose salting. This page has been re-created a very large number of times, under different titles. My experience over the years is that in this situation salting at the best achieves nothing, and at the worst can be very counterproductive. One or more people have put in a large amount of work over a long period in working to get the article established. (Francisjk2020 is just the latest in a string of accounts.) If they still wish to persist in trying to establish the article, they won't be stopped by salting; in the past their response to salting has been to switch to new titles, and there's nothing to stop them doing the same again. Therefore salting will stand zero chance of stopping re-creation. On the other hand, salting will make it certain, instead of just likely, that the next re-creation will be under a new title, and we can watch existing titles, but we can't watch every conceivable new title that they could possibly come up with. Therefore salting stands a significant chance of increasing the likelihood of a new copy of the article getting under the radar. This is not just a theoretical possibilities: I have seen it happen many times. A case in point came to my attention just a few days ago. An article had been repeatedly created and then salted in 2013, and not very long after it was recreated under a new name. It remained undetected until, as I say, just a few days ago. There are situations where salting can help, but this is absolutely not one of them. Title blacklisting stands a much better chance ofcworking, as it can deal with patterns of titles, rather than just exact titles that we specify, but I am still not sure about its usefulness in the present case, as it is still possible for a sufficiently determined spammer (which is what we are dealing with) to find titles that aren't blocked.
  • Pinging editors have have made any mention above of salting: Jclemens, Alalch E., OwenX, Star Mississippi, SportingFlyer, ToadetteEdit, Daniel. JBW (talk) 09:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks, yes, I said "salt" more abstractly in the sense of technically prevent recreation. I agree that title blacklisting is the correct action.—Alalch E. 09:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • I would be fine with a title blacklist instead of salting, although I don't agree that just because something isn't likely to effectively deter a bad faith editor means we shouldn't do it. Sometimes, just knowing that create protection was dodged, as it was in this case, gives information about motivation and good-faith on its own. Jclemens (talk) 11:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with you that SALT isn't working anyway, which is why I suggested a block. I'd be fine too with title blacklist as well @JBW. @ToadetteEdit why do you find either of those harmful? Star Mississippi 12:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I still endorse any decision that prevents an editor from creating an article at that title. SportingFlyer T·C 16:17, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I also support title blacklisting in the place of salting - agree it is more effective, although salting is (and was at the time) an appropriate measure also, if slightly less effective. Daniel (talk) 23:33, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse per Robert McClenon. Coastie43 (talk) 10:43, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse and consider listing at WP:DEEPER. No opposition to title blacklist, salting, etc. Stifle (talk) 08:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Amy Eden

Amy Eden (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Discussed with closing admin here. Only 1 person !voted redirect. The consensus seems to be delete. LibStar (talk) 01:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse as a viable ATD. No reason made not to. Star Mississippi 02:12, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse per the above, but more importantly: Delete !voters had plenty of time to argue against a redirection; no one did. Redirection to a relevant, notable parent topic is almost always a great ATD for a distinct topic that fails inclusion solely on notability grounds. Jclemens (talk) 03:20, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You're assuming that delete !voters aren't against redirect, I take a delete !vote as one for delete not one for redirect. LibStar (talk) 03:54, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    What is the policy basis for a deletion without redirection? Since I know that there isn't one, it would be rude of me to ABF that voters intended a non-policy-based outcome when they didn't explicitly argue for such. Jclemens (talk) 04:24, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak endorse Weak only because the consensus was clearly delete, I probably would have closed it as a delete, and I want to call attention to that. However a viable ATD is always welcome and I have no problem with that outcome. SportingFlyer T·C 03:44, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I have a confession to make: Unless the consensus is unanimous to delete, I like to look for ATD. It's because there still resides in me a small, tiny hope that maybe some day, we can find a use for content that has been written with good intentions. And, even if the article is crap, I think redirects are useful for readers looking for subjects through search. Also, in the over three years I've been putting in time closing AFDs, I've found very few editors who object to redirects. But there are some who seemingly want a subject and its page title obliterated from the project. I don't agree but editors have different preferences. LibStar seems to be the latter. There was one editor who suggested a redirect, though it was not a bolded comment, and I took that suggestion. If no editor had mentioned a redirect, I never would have closed this discussion as a redirect because that would be me, the closer, introducing a option that had not been suggested by the participants. But it was suggested by an editor. When LibStar came to my talk page upset with the closure, I offered what I thought was a compromise, I would delete the article and then create a redirect from that article page title to the target article. But that was not an acceptable option either. So, here we are. Thanks for hearing me out. Liz Read! Talk! 06:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not upset at all. In fact, if this deletion review ends up endorsing the closure, I will accept that. Wikipedia is not the end all be all of life. LibStar (talk) 06:58, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It seems to me that the offer to delete and redirect would have saved a lot of time and angst. That is a delete closure. Anyone can create a new redirect after a delete closure, and an objection to that redirect would need to be taken to RfD. But why? The page history would not be visible and this person was a mayor so it is a reasonable search term. Perhaps the nom. can withdraw this and return to that offer. Or perhaps that ship has sailed. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:31, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    On what basis would a deletion of an article with valid a redirect target, whose only issue is lack of notability, be a policy-preferred outcome? What is the benefit to the encyclopedia or its readers if only admins can see the deleted content? Jclemens (talk) 08:52, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You might want to see Bungle's reply below. I'd have voted redirect if I had seen this, but I didn't. But after the keep !voter suggested a redirect as an ATD, the AfD gained 4 additional deletes, so we can't say the redirect suggestion was not considered. The consensus was clearly delete here. And DRV, as we are often told, is not about relitigating the AfD but assessing whether the close correctly assessed the consensus.
    However participants in an AfD may not always fully appreciate the options, and sometimes Liz gives very helpful guidance in a relist comment. She might have written something like "would delete voters consider the above redirect suggestion" or similar in her relist comment. Liz is unusual amongst relisting closers in doing this, and I find it to be a very good and helpful practice. That she didn't do it here is certainly not blameworthy, as this is very much an additional aid/service that she sometimes employs on a grace and favour basis. But had that been in the relist comment, we might have seen some re-evaluation. Or not! It can be hard to get !voters to look again. But at least additional !voters would have had that steer that the option is available. I also note the relist was not then left for a full week, and the only additional !vote was another delete. So... if the closer's job is to assess consensus, then it is hard to assess this one as anything other than delete. Liz offered to amend her close to delete, followed by creation of a redirect - which any editor, including Liz, is perfectly entitled to do. It was a fair offer, and in the big plan of things, having this text in visible rather than hidden page history is neither here nor there. So redirect is a perfectly good outcome in my opinion, and much time and angst could have been saved by working with Liz on this. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:47, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak endorse for broadly the same reasons as SportingFlyer. A redirect is a de-facto delete, except that it can be easily reverted, although by the same token a deleted page can be recreated. That said, even if this seems an appropriate ATD, it feels like a supervote as there was, for me, quite an overwhelming majority advocating a straight "delete" that this should have been the default outcome. A redirect, or anything else, could have been done separate to the AfD. Seeing as this page could have been uncontroversially redirected after a deletion, then the close is not in itself inappropriate, but in this instance i'd have usually expected the outcome as "delete". Bungle (talkcontribs) 08:34, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And how would having the history of this article inaccessible to non-admins improve the encyclopedia vs. it being preserved under the redirect? Jclemens (talk) 08:47, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jclemens: my point was around the determining of consensus, not so much the aesthetics of a clean redirect. This discussion is just to determine if the reached outcome is correct and appropriate, and my view is, while strictly maybe not correct per consensus, is none the less probably appropriate. Just be mindful not to overly hound participants though, please, particularly as so far everyone has endorsed the decision in some form. Bungle (talkcontribs) 09:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's fair advice; my intent in questioning isn't to hound, so much as highlight the "Why?" behind the policies. I've been pursuing a curationist approach to the inclusionist/deletionist wars for quite some time, and if I accomplish nothing else in my Wikipedia career, deemphasizing binary delete/keep, win/lose thinking would be a satisfactory accomplishment. Having said that, I would dispute that identifying an ATD is against consensus in this or similar cases, in that it honors the finding that the individual is insufficiently notable for her own article, removes the content from mainspace, and allows all the nonproblematic (no promo, BLP, etc. issues) to remain in article history. It's especially important for admins to have the freedom to implement relatively obvious ATDs like this despite the nose counting, because that avoids pointless posturing like "keep or redirect" !votes, when everyone can see that at the time of such a !vote there aren't sufficient sources identified. Honesty and candor should result in optimum outcomes in a well-run consensus determination process, and I think Liz does it very well. Jclemens (talk) 00:18, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. This is the outcome suggested under policy. It was decided against a standalone article for the reason that the topic isn't notable. That does not by itself indicate that it is important to make the page history inaccessible. If the consensus to delete had formed around other reasons, such as BLP problems, it would not have been appropriate to redirect and leave the history accessible. But there is no such problem here.—Alalch E. 10:25, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why should anyone bother commenting at afd if we're just going to endorse its treatment as a closer's suggestion box? —Cryptic 10:59, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I have a great deal of respect for Liz, whom I regard as one of our best administrators. However, I find it alarming to see an administrator saying "Unless the consensus is unanimous to delete, I like to look for ATD. It's because there still resides in me a small, tiny hope that ..." A closing administrator absolutely should not allow their personal opinions or "hopes" to influence how they close a discussion, at all. Unlike Liz, I don't regularly close deletion discussions, but on the infrequent occasions when I do so, I quite often close them in ways which are strongly opposed to my own preferences. I do not wish to comment on the closure of the particular discussion being considered here, but I feel very strongly about the principle in general. JBW (talk) 11:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse and rescind offer to redirect over delete. The AfD determined that the subject did not meet our threshold of notability. It did not determine that the content violated policy. The appellant has no basis to demand deletion under the redirect, and has no locus standi to even request the removal of a redirect without an RfD. The entire appeal comes across as based on spite, rather than on a genuine interest in improving the project. I assumed good faith until I saw the appellant's refusal to accept the closing admin's compromise. This appellant will not be satisfied with any outcome different from their nomination, regardless of policy or benefit to WP. Owen× 12:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. A vote to delete as not notable and a vote to redirect are one in the same, the only difference being that the latter specifies a redirect target. None of the delete votes stated any opposition to redirect, and the AFD nominator also opined that redirect was a viable option after the redirect vote came in. Redirect is a reasonable close, and in this case the correct close (had delete been the outcome and someone challenged that at DRV, I would have voted to overturn to redirect with history restored). Frank Anchor 14:21, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse, per User:Alalch E.. Fundamentally, Liz was following the policy spelled out at WP:ATD, but perhaps more importantly was following a long-standing consensus that if an ATD has been suggested and not objected to then it is preferable to use that ATD rather than to delete history. (Among other minor benefits, it saves a future administrator the effort of doing a WP:REFUND.) Suriname0 (talk) 20:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. When in doubt, don't delete. A consensus that a topic is not notable does not make redirection or history preservation inappropriate. losers should always consider ATD's that have been suggested in a discussion and implement them if they are appropriate. Eluchil404 (talk) 20:25, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse - The consensus was Delete, and redirects are cheap, and the redirect is a valid one, so deleting the redirect would be silly. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do not endorse, I see a consensus to delete that the redirect close overruled. WP:Consensus is the controlling policy.
    • Regarding WP:Deletion policy#Alternatives to deletion (policy, shortcut WP:ATD), I wrote a policy and consensus analysis that Alternatives to deletion are not preferred over deletion in July 2022. There have been subsequent discussions, but no material policy changes.
    • I reviewed the last 12 months of DRVs containing "ATD" and deciding between delete and redirect. Please see the table on the talk page. Including this one, there are six total: three each of delete and redirect. The redirect AfDs were all closed by Liz, while the deletes had different closers. Assuming that this is endorsed, the four endorses will be evenly split.
    • If the article had been deleted, any autoconfirmed user could create a redirect. The history is only potentially useful for article content if and when Eden becomes notable – undeleting may never be necessary – and it would be outdated and overly focused on her campaign.
    Flatscan (talk) 04:25, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, yes... you don't see it the way the endorsers do. Without rehashing why I think you're wrong on that point, I don't recall yet seeing a good articulation of why doing things your way would benefit either or editors or our readers. Making it easier to just count noses and call that consensus makes things easier for closers, no question about it. But the readers? Jclemens (talk) 05:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The AfD reached the consensus that the history had no value as article content. I searched WP: space for benefit reader, finding WP:Purpose (information page), WP:Wikipedia is for readers (essay), and WP:About (not tagged). None of them mention page history. Did you have a policy, guideline, or other page in mind? Flatscan (talk) 04:27, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • A redirect is a delete with history restored, and I see no reason that would preclude such a restoration at the discretion of any single admin (RFU). It may have been "more optimal" for the suggestion to redirect to be left as a !vote instead of immediately implemented, but that is outside the purview of DRV. We're not here to pick apart every single detail of how a close is implemented, only to determine whether it is within the discretion afforded our closers, and with broader discretion typical for substantially very similar closes, I don't see any case for an overturn except that there were an explicit, rather than implicit consensus that article history be deleted. Alpha3031 (tc) 10:57, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]


8 April 2024

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Low Pavement, Chesterfield (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I do not believe there was a consensus to keep. While there was an initial flurry of keep !votes, I do not believe they adequately addressed the arguments that were made in the discussion and none of the keep votes provided SIGCOV in reliable sources. Additionally, there was a keep that turned into a comment and a merge !vote toward the end of the seven-day period. I believe that this discussion should be relisted. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse overwhelming consensus to keep including overwhelming rejection of the source analysis presented by the lone supporter of deletion. While the single merge vote to a currently non-existent page could be given some consideration, this can be done in a separate merge discussion on its talk page rather than an AFD where there is ZERO prospect of deletion. Frank Anchor 21:49, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse close. I think sometimes you need to pick your battles. This one had five keep !votes, including some carefully considered ones, and no deletes. There was indeed a late merge !vote and an editor who struck their keep on reflection - but did not switch to anything else. It was within closer's discretion to close this after the week without relisting, and I doubt that DRV will come to any different conclusion. Merge can be proposed outside of AfD, and this one didn't really have much chance of moving to delete. I would suggest accepting the AfD result but considering proposing a merge on the article talk. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:53, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair enough RE picking battles, but I was willing to pick this one given that the bulk of the keep !votes invented a new SNG out of thin air (i.e., having listed buildings on a street makes the street notable) and there was very little analysis from those !voters otherwise. I don't think it's really within closer discretion to accept blatantly wrong arguments, no matter how many people agree with them. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion is an attempt to gain consensus rather than proving who is right or wrong. "Blatantly wrong arguments" is an opinion. It's somewhat luck of the draw who responds to the discussion. On another day, with a different set of respondents, delete or an AtD may have won out. Rupples (talk) 23:42, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    By "blatantly wrong", I mean arguments that are obviously not rooted in PAGs. Consensus is based on strength of arguments, not on counting heads, and we have a whole page on arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. For example, if there was one delete and five keeps !votes in a discussion, but all of the keeps said "keep because this must be notable and I like it", the closer would obviously be wrong to say there's a consensus to keep. In my view, inventing a new SNG (e.g., a street is notable if it has buildings on it that may be notable [nobody in the discussion actually proved that they were]) is not a valid argument at AfD and should have been discounted because notability is not inherited. Once those keep !votes are discounted, I don't think there's a particularly strong case to keep here based on the sources added during the discussion. In any event, I respect that my view probably won't align with the ultimate consensus of this DRV. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:15, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Not every valid argument has to be in the guidelines. We don't have a guideline on notability of streets, so that neither allows nor excludes a consideration of a large cluster of listed buildings on the street. An argument was made that these were an indication of notability, and it was pointed out that the street is most unusual for this. You disagreed, but a considered consensus emerged that this was significant. That happens sometimes, and the closer correctly assessed the consensus. As Rupples says, there is a certain luck of the draw in AfD as to who turns up, and what they think. I have seen articles kept based on grounds I considered extremely spurious, and those articles languish and remain unencyclopaedic. Is this one such? You will think so, and perhaps you are right, but the consensus was against you on this one, and there was no way a closer could have read that any other way. This is what I meant about picking your battles. You will remain convinced you are right, and perhaps you are. But DRV is a high bar, and the question is only whether the closer assessed the consensus correctly. They did. Renomination in the future is an option. Merge is an option. And if you just leave it be, and if you are right and there is a non notable subject on the encyclopaedia, it will not grow lonely for lack of company. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:05, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I was unaware that indicators of notability could be created outside of SNGs; I thought that was precisely why we have SNGs and that's where my hang up is RE this deletion discussion. I think that that practice is a problem in terms of consistency of outcomes and clarity of the rules we all play by, but DRV isn't the place to address that. I'm not a DRV regular, so I defer to the regulars here. If this is the way deletion discussions are currently assessed and closed, then I accept that. voorts (talk/contributions) 12:41, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse the AfD participants were unpersuaded. If a merge discussion on talk page isn't preferred, you can try again per WP:RENOM, but it doesn't strike me as something I think needs that level of effort. Your assessment may vary, of course. Jclemens (talk) 22:14, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse there's really no other way to close that discussion, with one delete, one merge, five keep, and one neutral vote, and the keep !voters all having access to the argument for deletion. (With the full understanding this isn't AfD part two, and without having any impact on my endorse, I can say I also would have !voted to keep.) SportingFlyer T·C 22:30, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse close. The only !vote for deletion came from the nominator, who put up a lot of argument but didn't convince any of the keeps to change their opinion, nor realise any later opinions for delete. Five !votes were keep. The !vote for merge was to an article yet to be created, so wasn't at this stage practical, but could potentially be discussed on the article talk. I struck my initial keep !vote based on the source assessment table and possible duplication of content, but later challenged aspects of the source analysis. Further material was added late on and if I'd reacted before the close, I would have reinstated my initial keep. Rupples (talk) 22:34, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse - There was a consensus to keep. A Relist after the nominator provided their source analysis would have been a reasonable action, but was not required. That is, either Keep or Relist would have been good, and there was a consensus, including one Keep after the source analysis. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:13, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. Could not possibly have been closed any other way. Stifle (talk) 07:34, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. The comment about creating a new article and merging to it is obviously not something that consensus could have formed around in this AfD, and what AfD outcome is that: 'create article'? There was a consensus to keep.—Alalch E. 08:54, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse (involved). How on earth was there no consensus to keep? -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:56, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please withdraw this review. Thanks, voorts (talk/contributions) 12:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC) Given that this is no longer unanimous endorse, I do not believe withdrawing is appropriate. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:42, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist. None of the Keep !votes is based on policy or guidelines. The street doesn't inherit notability from the buildings on it, and being listed in directories does not amount to SIGCOV. The appellant's AfD nomination statement, supported by his thorough source assessment by Rupples, casts serious doubt on the notability of the street, which was not adequately addressed by the other participants. There was clearly no consensus to delete, but this deserves a relist to give sourcing the attention it deserves. Owen× 12:53, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The source assessment was conducted by the nom. and not by Rupples. Rupples responded to it to say that Bradley and Bradley2 should be taken together and represented SIGCOV, and thus counted as a single source towards GNG. That is not multiple sources of course, but Appraisal should also have been counted, rather than left as unknown. There was also no analysis of multiple book mentions, for some reason (which might indeed be a reason to relist, but not if the result is going to be clear). It is mentioned extensively in Secret Chesterfield [2], Aspects of Chesterfield [3] and Chesterfield Through Time [4] for instance. That is just an initial search. I expect a street with this much history will find its way into many more works. All due respect to the nom., who I think highly of, but this one was never going to be a delete outcome. It is clearly a historic street and the site of a medieval market. On that: Chesterfield Market is a stub, and sits on this street. This could be merged into this page, and perhaps the title adjusted too, in a similar way to how Croydon's historic Surrey Street Market is handled. This can be done outside of a deletion discussion. (ETA: But, unlike Surrey Street Market, Chesterfield's market is adjacent to the street rather than on it - so it is perhaps not quite comparable - still something that could be discussed outside AfD). Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:46, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for pointing out my mistake, Sirfurboy! I fixed my comment above accordingly. Your evaluation of the book mentions would have been very helpful at the AfD, but this isn't an AfD. We're here to assess the closing of that AfD, not the notability of the article's subject. You said, this one was never going to be a delete outcome. I agree, but my participation in AfDs and DRVs isn't based on what I expect the outcome to be, but what I see as the correct application of our P&G, and the correct reading of P&G-based participants. I'm not bothered being in the minority, or even the sole outlier. The Low Pavement, Chesterfield may very well meet our notability standards, but that conclusion was not reflected in the AfD at the time of closing. A review of the book sources you presented is better suited for a relisted AfD than for a DRV. Owen× 14:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse I think here a statement from the closer exlaining their assessment would have been useful - especially given that, while not explicitly defined as such, there is effectively a debate as to whether the justification for keep is a form of WP:SYNTH. That said, this was not the only justification for keep (eg Warofdreams' statement on improvement to the article was unrebutted); there's no reading of the discussion that will produce delete. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 00:43, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse - after an "overwhelming consensus to keep" at AfD, we have a similar clear consensus that the closing decision was the right one. Is this re-litigation of the original point really a profitable use of time/resources? KJP1 (talk) 11:29, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Just a friendly reminder to note that you were involved in the deletion discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 13:53, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Just a friendly reminder to Voorts to do the same, as they failed to inform people that they were the original AFD nominator when listing this DRV. However, this is not a big deal as per the DRV rules, involved editors may state involvement as a courtesy but are not required to do so. Frank Anchor 16:01, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it's pretty obvious I was involved given that I filed the DRV and hopefully everyone !voting here is reading the AfD and would see that I was the nom. I wasn't implying it was a big deal or ascribing bad faith to KJP1. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:13, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It is common for a DRV to be started by a party not involved in the deletion discussion. Frank Anchor 23:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    My apologies - having never previously participated in a Deletion Review, and only in about 3 AfDs to the best of my recollection, I was unaware of this. Very happy to make clear that I voted Keep in the original AfD. KJP1 (talk) 16:43, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It's also not mandatory, just polite. A good DRV closer in a contentious close should review which contributions participated in the AfD anyways. SportingFlyer T·C 21:36, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Sports broadcasting contracts in Israel (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Hello, I write to request restoration of the page (an overturn), or at least relisting, because the process used, when looked at in conjunction with a broader AfD discussion occurring at the same time was confusing and misleading. When I first saw the deletion discussion for [Sports Broadcasting Contracts in Israel], there was a note from the initiator of the deletion request that, having been advised by others that it was better, they wanted to withdraw the Israel Sports Broadcasting Contracts page deletion request to consolidate it with the deletion request for dozens of other sports broadcasting pages at [Sports Broadcasting Contracts in Serbia]. This is consistent with the with the Articles for Deletion guideline that "If a number of similar articles are to be nominated, it is best to make this a group nomination so that they can be considered collectively." And so, I put my keep comment in the Serbia discussion, and I limited my comment to generic points relevant to the broader category of sports broadcasting contracts. Some users agreed with my comment, and at least one did not. In any case, following the broader deletion discussion, which resulted in a procedural keep, I came back to the Israel sports broadcasting page, only to learn that it had been deleted the same day as the broader procedural keep. I understand the closer's point that a Procedural Keep on the overall category and a Close on the specific article are not inherently inconsistent. However, those decisions still should not be made at the same time. An implicit corrilary to the AfD guideline quoted above is that the individual similar article nominatations should be stopped, or at least paused, while the group nomination is handled. Indeed, the decision to maintain dozens of similar sports broadcasting contract pages is relevant to the evaluation of each individual page. There wasn't time, however, to take the broader decision into account on the Israel indivdual country page AfD. If dozens of other similar country-based broadcasting contract pages are viewed by many Wikipedians as notable, it is not clear what makes the Israel broadcasting contract page not worthy of Wikipedia. I do not want this deletion decision becoming another entry in the recent research report on [Bias Against Israel on Wikipedia].

Perhaps most simply, for a number of days, including the day when I came across the [Sports Broadcasting Contracts in Israel] page, the AfD withdrawl request led users like me to think it best to go elsewhere (to the broader discussion under the [Serbia page]) with comments, and also not make comments specific to the Israel page. For the 7-day minimum for AfD discussions rule to have meaning, there should be none of those 7 days when it would appear to the average reader that the AfD discussion will in fact occur elsewhere.

In any case, having overlapping deletion discussions (one to a broad category of changes, and another for a specific page) is very confusing and is not a process designed to achieve a fair outcome.

To summarize, the page should be restored (an overturn) and given time to be improved, or at least this is an appropriate time to use the relist procedures.

Thank you for your consideration. Coining (talk) 20:27, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse. Everything was done correctly and there are no procedural issues. There was a consensus to delete.—Alalch E. 22:03, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse I don't think this was a correct outcome, and that this could have been saved with sourcing, but the consensus was completely clear. SportingFlyer T·C 22:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Just so I understand -- you don't think this was the correct outcome, and I've given a reason why the "consensus" was artificial, but nonetheless you endorse preserving the outcome of the deletion discussion? Coining (talk) 22:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes. There was crystal clear consensus to delete, and the bundled AfD you mentioned was kept not because these are worth keeping as a whole, but because the group nomination was inappropriate. As for being the correct outcome, I would have gone into this AfD looking to make a keep argument based on whether or not I could find sources to support the article as I don't think WP:NOTTVGUIDE applies, but sources would still be needed, and in any case that is not what is being reviewed here - this is not AfD part two. SportingFlyer T·C 23:33, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse as the proper reading of the sense of the community.
      • I respectfully disagree with the appellant's statement that the consensus was artificial, or that the overlapping deletion discussions were confusing. What was confusing was the blanket deletion discussion, and it was closed as a train wreck (and I agree with that closure). In other words, the deletion should be decided by individual deletion discussions, so this deletion discussion, standing alone, was the train around the train wreck.
      • The closer could have either closed as Delete or relisted, but the Delete closure was the better action, because there were multiple policy-based Delete arguments.
      • SportingFlyer says that there could have been better sources. I do not have an opinion on whether that is correct, but the appellant is free to submit a draft for review having better sources.
      • If User:SportingFlyer is saying that sometimes an editor has to accept a consensus with which they disagree, then I agree that is the proper collaborative attitude.
    • There is no need for a relist, and an overturn would be wrong. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:59, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

6 April 2024

List of cult films (closed)

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
List of cult films (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

In this closure, the closer said "[A keep] argument was not successfully rebutted by the Delete views." Four of the keep votes came in during the final day of the AFD – following a canvass of previous keep voters – that I didn't see and I don't think there was enough time to allow for responses. With a final !vote of 6–5, I do not believe there was a consensus to keep already, and I request that it be relisted for further discussion. I also have concern about the closer's comparison "similar to that of List of films considered the worst" – that page is a contextual prose article in that sense more similar to the corresponding main article here, cult film, rather than 27 alphabetical pages of thousands of simple bullet points, so this feels like a supervote to me. Reywas92Talk 00:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting seconded. (Disclosure: I voted del, but now I am leaning to keep/cleanup) A close call. The closer wrote: "isn't of cult films, but of films described by reliable sources as "cult", which is well-defined criterion" -- in the context of Wikipedia this is a tautology ( "Lists of stars is described in reliable sources as a "star" :-)), hence cannot be a relevant "keep" argument. - Altenmann >talk 00:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse Close As the closer stated, we have many lists of non-binary and subjective topics (thank goodness), so that alone is not reason to delete. Also many of the Deleters misquoted WP:LISTCRIT to say subjective topics are not allowed - this is a fallacy, LISTCRIT says they are with reliable sourcing. Because of this AfD, there is currently ongoing discussion how to define/refine the criteria. -- GreenC 01:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Respedctfully disagreed: LISTCRIT says: "unambiguous, objective, and supported by reliable sources" (emphasis mine). At the same time, after the re-reading of the article "cult film, I see that it gives a rather specific and I would say, a rather objective definition. Therefore I am favoring cleanup now (enormous job), although I seconded the relisting. - Altenmann >talk 01:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      WP:LISTCRIT says: In cases where the membership criteria are subjective or likely to be disputed, it is especially important that inclusion be based on reliable sources. We have sources. LISTCRIT clearly allows for subjective criteria. Any quoting of this rule needs to say this. It's misleading to suggest the rule says otherwise. -- GreenC 13:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Let's distinguish between subjective topics and subjective criteria. We can have lists on topics that are inherently subjective, but we still have to have an objective[a] way of determining whether each entry meets the threshold for inclusion based on the sources. TompaDompa (talk) 05:02, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist I typically read the discussion before I read the reason why the discussion is being brought to DRV, and I came back ready to endorse the close. I don't think it was a supervote, though I think no consensus may have been a better option. However, I think a relist is appropriate because this was a clear delete until the time at which other editors were notified only yesterday, meaning those advocating for delete did not have time to rebut those wishing to keep this article. I'm not sure which way this will swing after a relist, but it doesn't matter - more discussion is clearly warranted. (Also a reminder to the closer of this DRV to check to see which endorsers participated in the AfD.) SportingFlyer T·C 01:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse as even without the recent keeps, the delete votes were simply not policy based and failed to understand sourcing for subjective lists. To wit:
    • there are no reliable sources for determining "cult"ness of a film, because it's a vague, subjective term without a clear definition.
    • what makes a film "cult" is very subjective and there isn't a widely accepted definition of the term. Even if reliable sources call it a cult film, that's still using that source's own definition of "cult" because again, it is not a clearly defined term in the slightest.
    • When the inclusion criteria here is that one person used a certain term once to describe a movie, that isn't necessarily a relevant commonality or a useful description.
    • This list does not have a clear inclusion category other than "a source called it cult once," and cult itself does not have a clear definition.
    That's one quote per delete !voter other than the nom: each of them demonstrates a sufficiently bad understanding of how RS'ing applies to a subjective label that they should be entirely discounted. OwenX's assessment is spot on, and even if you discount the influx of late keeps, the AfD should still have been closed as delete keep. Jclemens (talk) 05:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Those all seem like correct interpretations of whether a list is subjective/indiscriminate to me...? SportingFlyer T·C 05:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Agreed; Yes, RS'ing applies to a subjective label regardless wikipedian's opinion, but here Wikipedia policy does come into play, together with Wikipedian's opinion, about what lists are based on subjective criterion, i.e., the issue is not verifiability, but our policy about lists. - Altenmann >talk 05:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well, then you're either wrong or missing the point, I suppose. There is no definition of "cult film" or any other subjective list selection criterion, other than what RS'es say. If RS'es have a mish-mash definition, then it is elitist and against policy for Wikipedia editors to try and "clean up" what RS'es say. RSes can be contradictory and confused: that is not a reason to not follow them, but rather to carefully catalogue the differing viewpoints amongst them per DUE. Jclemens (talk) 06:50, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        • If the sources are contradictory and confused, we need a fairly high threshold for inclusion (in terms of sourcing) to abide by WP:DUE—otherwise we would be listing different films where the designation as a cult film is respectively fringe, debatable, and uncontroversial on equal footing (so-to-speak) in direct violation of WP:DUE.[b] A list format is of course not optimized for nuance. TompaDompa (talk) 04:54, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. Good close. “Delete” was not close to being in the cards, so do not relist. People who don’t like the lists should read advice at WP:RENOM. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse as a valid closure, and the right closure. A Relist would have been also valid, but after notifying all previous participants, and after four previous AFDs, closure as Keep was a good idea. Either it isn't canvassing to notify all of the previous participants, or we need another word to characterize biased canvassing. Enough is enough. This result was the same as recent previous results. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. Our list of cult films is a laughable list of cult films, seeing how it includes The Godfather, American Beauty and Taken as cult films (and many other films which are sometimes trivially and casually referred to as "cult films"; note how the articles about these films do not describe them as cult films, because there's nothing of substance to write about their purported cult film status ... because they are not, in fact, cult films). I advise everyone against looking at this list. A misinformation internet page. I agree with Reywas92. Comments on the delete side were excellent. I like what the IP wrote (that "list of films that have been called cult films" [emphasis mine] does not meet NLIST and is indiscriminate). But there was no consensus to delete.—Alalch E. 16:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Avatar is also a cult film according to this misinformation page. No instance of the word "cult" in the article of course. —Alalch E. 16:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Note also this AfD for some perspective: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of cult television shows (closed on 5 April 2024 as delete) —Alalch E. 17:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Alalch E. I didn't say there was a consensus to delete, but there was not a consensus to keep and there should be more time for additional votes which is why I requested a relist. "Keep" was a bad closure. Reywas92Talk 02:14, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Reywas92 It's almost impossible to delete these problematic lists once NLIST-based keeps start accumulating. I recall this AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Nobel laureates by university affiliation. A fabulously bad list. Incredibly strong arguments for deleting. Ultimately it was editorially TNT'd and reworked from ground up. This is what should happen here. Whether the outcome is no consensus like in that AfD or keep like in this AfD doesn't really matter. —Alalch E. 02:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:TNT may be the best outcome here. Just being described as "cult" in reliable sources is too broad, but the list also doesn't necessarily need to be deleted if everyone can agree on a clearer definition. SportingFlyer T·C 03:50, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Take a look at Talk:List of cult films#List criteria if you haven't. —Alalch E. 15:49, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse the delete votes were weak and supported very little by policy/guidelines. The late keep votes were probably what put keep over the top, but as they are not canvassed (notifying EVERYONE involved of a subsequent discussion, without regard to vote, is a legitimate tactic to increase awareness), these are legitimate votes. The list is obviously subjective and can be improved, but that is not the scope of DRV. Frank Anchor 15:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse I'm not convinced that there was inappropriate canvassing; pinging editors who participated in a previous discussion of the same matter is hardly unusual practice. There's even good faith grounds to argue that the onus should rest with a nominator to ping previous editors when sending an article to AfD for the n time. The closer might have mentioned explicitly the delete arguments for WP:INDISCRIMINATE, which were countered by WP:NEXIST-type arguments (I'm truly flummoxed by the claim that a British Film Institute source does not "pass the smell test for reliability"), the more detailed engagement with WP:LSC and the response that most concerns were content concerns, not notability concerns. There was one TNT contribution, which of the delete arguments to my mind was the strongest, but there was no other support for that since there was no follow up analysis of how signficanly problematic the article is in its current state (comments on examples of what should not be there, but nothing giving a qualitative assessment). FWIW, we accept a limiting factor to lists being our own notability requirements (see for example List of Norwegian musicians). Concur with the comment above, even without the "late" contributions, stronger p/g position was keep. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 01:53, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Editors are invited to the talk page to hash out the list criteria. I got the BFI book 100 Cult Films and have been improving the inline citations and adding some titles. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 02:50, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse because the request to have a definition violates WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. We don't get to create an internal definition of a cult film and determine ourselves whether it passes or not. Can you imagine doing that for a science fiction film? If reliable sources verify a film as a cult film, we list it as such, because we are reporting what the real world says. WP:NLIST is why it was kept, and we can come up with criteria for inclusion. There are a ridiculous number of books about cult films that a working list is completely feasible. Deletion is not cleanup. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 04:16, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

  1. ^ Or more accurately, as objective as we can get on Wikipedia—for instance, we require reliable sources, but which sources are reliable is of course also subjective.
  2. ^ For example: let's say, for the sake of argument, that there are ten sources about which films are cult films and which are not. One of them deems Film X a cult film, five of them deem Film Y a cult film, and all ten deem Film Z a cult film. That would, in the overall literature, make the designation of Film X as a cult film fringe, of Film Y debatable, and Film Z uncontroversial. If we then include all of them on the same list, we are presenting fringe viewpoints in the field as being of equal standing as generally accepted ones, in violation of WP:NPOV.
  • Comment: I've been working on cleaning up these lists using book references. Let's say we trash listings that aren't book references, see cult films starting with R here. I think we can achieve that across all the letters. Right now, I'm just adding book references and phasing out non-book citations (especially layperson journalists). See talk page for cleanup discussion. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 23:38, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

Kansas City shooting (closed)

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Kansas City shooting (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Based on an analysis of the votes, it’s in between disambiguation and no consensus. The discussion was tainted by WP:BLUDGEON behaviour by Thruddyulf as well. Some of the votes are based on the length of time between nominations, which for a current event must be discounted. Discounting those votes, the consensus is clear that disambiguation is the correct shooting. Keep voters completely contradicted WP:RECENTISM, WP:10YT, etc. And regarding the Google searches - when I looked up Kansas City shooting, this was the first result, then this, then this and only my 4th article is about it. Granted, those shootings don’t have articles, but the media hype about this is dying down and it’s blatantly obvious that in a few months, this will be just as talked about as those other shootings that have articles. Finally, the closure gave no justification for their closure, so they didn’t even explain it. At least if they explained it, there’s logic that this controversial decision is based off of.24.89.159.222 (talk) 23:10, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse. On the procedural side, I'm not seeing anything inappropriate in what went on in the discussion, or that the closing was a misapplication of consensus. On the content side, since Kansas City shooting (disambiguation) exists, it's clear that something should exist at this title. The question is whether it's a redirect to the dab page or the dab page after a round-robin move. —C.Fred (talk) 23:20, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse I don't see anything wrong with the close myself and likely would have closed the same way. I also strongly disagree with the accusation of bludgeoning by Thryduulf - a bludgeoning accusation is serious, and we were far from it here. Finally, it may be proper to revisit this in a few months, but that was even mentioned by some of the !keep voters, and I don't see anything explicitly against policy. SportingFlyer T·C 23:46, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    When one is used to the anemic participation in RfD, rather than the lively banter at AfD, any participation at all can look like bludgeoning, I suspect. Jclemens (talk) 05:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hello, closer here. I think I'll refrain from leaving a !vote and let the community decide whether or not my close was appropriate. However, I want to note that most of the nominator's statement is their opinion as it relates to the original discussion, such as sharing Google search results to attempt to determine the primary topic. Since that's not what deletion review is for, I won't address those arguments. As for the lack of a closing rationale, I actually try not to write significant closing statements for deletion discussions to avoid accidentally slipping into supervote territory; my job as a closer is not to provide my opinion, but to interpret the weight of other editors' opinions and apply them to (hopefully) improve the encyclopedia. Feel free to ping me with any specific questions. TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 00:04, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse: if anything, the redirect should not be deleted, but retargeted to Kansas City shooting (disambiguation), but this is the subject of editing discussion, not deletion. - Altenmann >talk
  • Endorse, the close was proper. I would have closed it the same way but TechnoSquirrel69 beat me to it. Jay 💬 08:32, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. Good close reflecting the discussion. The discussion was to keep or DABify, falling on the side of Keep. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. The appellant makes a valid point about some of the !votes being tainted by recentiism. But I'm not convinced it is enough to discard those views when discussing redirects and DABs. Unlike articles, redirs are kept based on current usefulness, not enduring notability. A survey of Google results is a valid indication of what search terms people are using today, even if it tells us nothing about what they'd look for in ten years or in two months.
Like the appellant, I would have liked to see a brief closing rationale. I can relate to the admin's reasoning for skipping an explanation. I, too, occasionally get accused of supervoting when I provide such transparency for my read of consensus when I close, but that's no justification for avoiding it. Be bold, be open, invite reasoned criticism.
Finally, the accusation of bludgeoning is without merit. What Thryduulf did is what we should all be doing: engaging with other participants in a civil manner, and attempt to build consensus.
All that said, I would welcome a fresh XfD in two months. Owen× 11:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd hope there's been some discussion at Talk:Kansas City shooting (disambiguation) or Talk:Kansas City shooting in the interim about how to title the dab page or what this title should redirect to. If there hasn't been, then the XfD might need to extend to the dab page and whether it's truly serving its purpose. —C.Fred (talk) 13:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your feedback — I do provide brief closing rationales for discussions I feel are contentious enough to warrant it, but maybe my threshold for that could be taken down a couple steps in the interest of clarity, which I'll keep in mind going forward. Also, just noting for noting's sake: I'm not an administrator. :) TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 16:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to express an opinion about the close, but I do think a closing summary would have beneficial. I do have to say though that I'm very surprised at the accusation of bludgeoning levied against me here. I made four comments in the 3 and a bit weeks this was open. The first comment was to express an opinion about the article, the second was asking another editor to clarify their rationale as it didn't (and still doesn't) make sense to me, the third was to express an opinion about an alternative proposal that was made after my previous two comments, and the fourth was to expand on my first comment a fortnight after I made it. To the filer of this DRV: please could you explain which of those comments you feel demonstrates bludgeoning and why? Thryduulf (talk) 18:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

Sindhuja Rajaraman

Sindhuja Rajaraman (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

The rationale to delete carried more weight. The subject article on its reading appears non-notable. Coverage is not substantial but sensationalism/churnalism. Marked for updation since 2015. Thanks, Please feel free to ping/mention -- User4edits (T) 06:04, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Overturn I don't believe keep was a reasonable close - those arguing for keep were not doing so very strongly, and those arguing against WP:BLP1E didn't really make strong arguments either (either confusing 1E and SUSTAINED, or saying "age is not an event" though the event is clearly becoming a young CEO). I think possible results of this discussion were no consensus and delete, and I would have closed as delete, but any result that's not keep is fine by me. SportingFlyer T·C 19:29, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to No Consensus. The closer's reasoning would be good reasoning for a Keep !vote, but is a supervote as a close. Although a close is not a vote count, the vote count should be given some weight, and there were four good-faith Delete statements including the nominator but excluding the blocked editor, and three good-faith Keep statements. The Delete arguments should not have been discounted. After two previous relists, the close should be changed to No Consensus, and a new nomination can be made in two months. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:39, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse as the closing admin. This was my assessment of the views expressed in that AfD:
On the Delete side:
  • Red X symbolN WP:1E - successfully countered by the Keeps
  • Red X symbolN WP:NOTWEBHOST - irrelevant
  • Red X symbolN BLP1E - successfully countered
  • Red X symbolN "per nom"
  • Green checkmarkY coverage not significant
  • Red X symbolN sources in foreign-language media re: animation work - irrelevant
  • Red X symbolN no international coverage - not a P&G argument
  • Red X symbolN there are many other young CEOs who are and can be considered notable - WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST
On the Keep side:
  • Green checkmarkY SIGCOV
  • Green checkmarkY two reliable sources
  • Green checkmarkY WP:BLP1E doesn't apply
  • Green checkmarkY at least 3 SIGCOV RS spanning 8 years
So while at first blush, the Delete participants have a small numerical advantage, once you sift the arguments down to P&G, other than the one claim by Esprit15d which was reasonably questioned by others, all guideline-based arguments fall on the Keep side. I believe that closing this as Delete would have given weight to IDONTLIKEIT-type arguments in favour of actual policy. I, personally, have no opinion about the article itself, so the accusation of a supervote is without basis. Owen× 21:02, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the ping, it still appears to be a marginal !keep vote based on a re-review, but I'm not fussed either way, however we decide for it to go. Oaktree b (talk) 21:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I absolutely disagree the !keeps countered the WP:BLP1E argument, hence my overturn. SportingFlyer T·C 22:02, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The question, as I read the AfD, is not whether this is a person famous for one event or not. She clearly is only famous for that one event. The question is whether the event, and the person's role in it, meet all three WP:BLP1E criteria to qualify for deletion. I believe the Keep !voters successfully argued that it does not meet C#3, seeing as the event received significant national coverage in independent RS for eight years, and the person's role in it was pivotal. For WP:BLP1E, all three criteria need to be met to qualify for deletion. Owen× 22:51, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There were three !keep votes. The first vote doesn't understand why this is an "event." The second only says that there are two reliable sources. The third is a weak keep, saying they don't believe age isn't a BLP1E factor because coverage was sustained, which isn't part of BLP1E at all. Nobody in the discussion talks about C#3 either explicitly or implicitly. The way you're explaining your conclusion is starting to sound like a supervote. SportingFlyer T·C 23:02, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I said weak keep because this meets #1 and maybe #2 of WP:BLP1E. But not #3. Her role was substantial, as CEO, and is well documented in essentially all of Indian media. TLAtlak 07:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"No international coverage" was taken out of context, mea culpa for poor choice of words. I intend to say that the young lady's achievement is not many and the company that she is CEO of is not notable. Her achievement is that she was the youngest CEO that got same repeated coverage in sources early on and that is all. She has no significant other achievement if you take another young CEO Advait Thakur, at the age of 15 who continued to earn more notable achievement till today like created an app for Google Assistant called "Autism Awareness" and awarded The Startup India's "Main 10 Young Entrepreneurs In India 2018" and also included in "India's Hottest Young Entrepreneurs Of 2018, "Most Influential Youth Marketing Professional of 2CMO Asia CMO Asia, Zoom, and the World Federation of Marketing Professionals' Global Youth Marketing Forum. Sindhuja's achievement is not substantial. RangersRus (talk) 10:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse Being a CEO is not 1E per WP:WI1E, while becoming one might be. No consensus would have been reasonable closure as well, but overturning keep to no consensus is not worth our time. The fact that so much of Indian media is paid placement muddies the water a bit, but this was picked up internationally. Jclemens (talk) 23:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Being a CEO of a 10-person company is not what I see to be claim of notability. The 1E in question is Guinness thingy, which caused the media stir. - Altenmann >talk 01:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Notability flows from RS coverage. If a topic gets coverage sufficient to meet the GNG, it's notable, regardless of my, your, or anyone else's opinion of whether the topic should or should not have been covered by reliable sources. Jclemens (talk) 06:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse or a weak overturn to no consensus. It's clear that the sources are good here, but the concern is with WP:BLP1E. But this fails #3 and only weekly hits #2, because the coverage spans 8 years. TLAtlak 07:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn (relist for more source discussion). The close reads Supervotery, OwenX stating his opinion/conclusion rather than quoting from the discussion. The discussion reads as just getting starting, except that it is tainted by being the football of a PAID turf war (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#What's_going_on_here?). The source analysis above belongs at AfD. The blocked editor's "churnalism" allegation needs examination by other users. Actually, it is probably best to call it "no consensus" or "tainted" and to allow a fresh nomination. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:36, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to no consensus to allow immediate renomination. Defining an event is done broadly in the context of BLP1E. Practically anything that someone in a deletion discussion labels an event could, ostensibly, be treated as an event for the purposes of that discussion. The discussion around construing the thing as "Being a CEO", i.e., as (arguably) not an event, or "becoming a CEO", i.e., as (arguably) an event, needed to have been more resolved for the closer to say that the BLP1E argument was "successfully countered" on the basis of how the claimed event was not an event. It is not clear if (and which) editors had "being" or "becoming" in mind, and it comes down to semantics to an extent. Overall, editors distinctly did not agree about the nature of the thing as an event or not-an-event. Discounting BLP1E-based !votes on the basis of how the "event" thesis was wrong had the character of a supevote. When what was discounted is counted in, it turns out that the discussion is unresolved. There were two relists and instead of overturning and relisting, it would be better to start with a fresh nomination. One that is laid out better.—Alalch E. 15:34, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not sure where you saw any of that in my closing rationale. I did not discard any !vote based on the claim that it is or isn't an event. However, as I'm tla and I explained above, while the article falls under the jurisdiction of BLP1E, it does not meet the deletion criteria listed in that policy. As such, deletion "per BLP1E" is a discarded argument, no matter how many participants voiced it. We do not delete biographies of living people based on a single event if that event is significant, well documented, and the person's role in it is substantial, as determined by RS. Owen× 16:56, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm tla disagreed with your interpretation of BLP1E just above and is now blocked indefinitely. With all due respect, with each of your responses here, your decision sounds more and more supervotey. SportingFlyer T·C 17:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll try to reread everything and see if I can modify the above comment. It does seem to me now like I got partially sidetracked while coming up with it. But my impression is that recommendation should still be to overturn. —Alalch E. 03:36, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to No Consensus. I am not sure that the closer should just waive off BLP1E as a discarded argument. --Enos733 (talk) 02:35, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak overturn to NC Keep was a reasonable interpretation of this discussion but NC is a bit better. I agree with others here that the BLP1E concerns were not given quite enough weight. However there clearly was not consensus to delete and a third relist would not change that. I would advise the nominator here to take the advice at WP:RENOM if they wish to send back to AFD. Frank Anchor 11:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse - The close was well reasoned both at the time of closing and above. The other possible read of the discussion is as no consensus in which case we would also keep the article so I don't see the point in continuing the discussion here. ~Kvng (talk) 01:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and delete in line with the consensus of the debate. I am also fine (as a second preference) with relisting. Stifle (talk) 07:36, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and relist for consideration of sourcing - while I think the issue of the WP:BLP1E is addressed, for me there is no consensus on the reliability of the sourcing, two deletes take issue (not considering the "international" angle) and the single (weak) keep !vote that addresses the issue acknowledges the sourcing is borderline. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 22:55, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist. No consensus would have also been an appropriate closure. Discussion seems rather confused, and participants do not clearly indicate the are aware of the distinction between BIO1E and BLP1E. The fact that two of the participants have since been indefinitely blocked (1 keep, CU-blocked, 1 delete, for UPE) tilts me over towards a relist or immeidate renomination. Alpha3031 (tc) 09:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

4 April 2024

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Priyanka Choudhary (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
  • Although the last deletion review was closed only a few days ago. We have been asked to come here with respect to the notice made by @Stifle in their talk page: [5]. As already stated by us several times in several places, Priyanka Choudhary has passed WP:NACTOR and WP:SIGCOV through her various roles. There is significant coverage supporting the same in the latest deleted version of Priyanka Choudhary deleted by @Stifle on 3rd April 2024 at 9:43 am.
Infact there was an ongoing discussion which involved @C.Fred, myself Amma&Papa and @ManaliJain in the talk page of the subject which clearly proved that the article did have new information on the newer roles with reliable sources which made the subject notable. So, please kindly review the deletion and restore the article so that it can be subjected to a new AFD where a new consensus can be reached.
  • Honestly, it is "unfair" that the Wikipedia admins are constantly penalizing the other editors who have no connection with the past and would like to create an article of Priyanka Choudhary by following the community guidelines while there are so many articles like Abhishek Kumar (actor), Isha Malviya and Nimrit Kaur Ahluwalia which are kept even though the subjects aren't notable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amma&Papa (talkcontribs) 06:37, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse If you think Abhishek Kumar (actor), Isha Malviya, and Nimrit Kaur Ahluwalia aren't notable you are welcome to nominate those articles for AfDs as well. It's unfair to the Wikipedia community that we can't make a final decision that this actress is not notable and instead have to keep wasting our time relitigating it again and again and again.
    Finally, who is we? Wikipedia accounts must be used by only one person. * Pppery * it has begun... 15:26, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy endorse per the many previous DRV’s on the subject and her listing at WP:DEEPER. It doesn’t appear that anything has changed since the previous DRV a few weeks ago. No objection to creation of a draft to go through the WP:AFC process. Frank Anchor 16:53, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse the closure of the previous DRV (?) and speedy close this DRV as out of proccess as nothing new has been brought. Per the instructions at DEEPER, the appellant is welcome to prepare a draft they believe would satisfy a prima facie review with new sources that have not been previously addressed or considered in prior AfDs or DRVs. I understand that they don't agree with the decision in that regard of the previous draft, but there is nothing new here. This concluded less than a month ago and appellants bring no new sources to this DRV, just a stick, unfortunately. microbiologyMarcus [petri dish·growths] 18:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
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