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This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page.
This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page.

Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ.

Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at Peer review and adding the review to the FAC peer review sidebar. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time.

The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose, Gog the Mild, David Fuchs and FrB.TG—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators:

  • actionable objections have not been resolved;
  • consensus for promotion has not been reached;
  • insufficient information has been provided by reviewers to judge whether the criteria have been met; or
  • a nomination is unprepared.

It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support.

Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages. Graphics such as  Done and  Not done slow down the page load time, and complex templates can lead to errors in the FAC archives. For technical reasons, templates that are acceptable are {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}}, used to hide offtopic discussions, and templates such as {{green}} that apply colours to text and are used to highlight examples without altering fonts. Other templates such as {{done}}, {{not done}}, {{tq}}, {{tq2}}, and {{xt}}, may be removed.

An editor is allowed to be the sole nominator of only one article at a time, but two nominations are allowed if the editor is a co-nominator on at least one of them. If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a coordinator; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a coordinator will decide whether to remove it. A coordinator may exempt from this restriction an archived nomination that attracted no (or minimal) feedback.

Nominations in urgent need of review are listed here. To contact the FAC coordinators, please leave a message on the FAC talk page, or use the {{@FAC}} notification template elsewhere.

A bot will update the article talk page after the article is promoted or the nomination archived; the delay in bot processing can range from minutes to several days, and the {{FAC}} template should remain on the talk page until the bot updates {{Article history}}.

Table of ContentsThis page: Purge cache

Featured content:

Featured article candidates (FAC)

Featured article review (FAR)

Today's featured article (TFA):

Featured article tools:


How to nominate an article

Nomination procedure

  1. Before nominating an article, ensure that it meets all of the FA criteria and that peer reviews are closed and archived.
  2. Place {{subst:FAC}} at the top of the talk page of the nominated article and save the page.
  3. From the FAC template, click on the red "initiate the nomination" link or the blue "leave comments" link. You will see pre-loaded information; leave that text. If you are unsure how to complete a nomination, please post to the FAC talk page for assistance.
  4. Below the preloaded title, complete the nomination page, sign with ~~~~, and save the page.
  5. Copy this text: {{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/name of nominated article/archiveNumber}} (substituting Number), and edit this page (i.e., the page you are reading at the moment), pasting the template at the top of the list of candidates. Replace "name of ..." with the name of your nomination. This will transclude the nomination into this page. In the event that the title of the nomination page differs from this format, use the page's title instead.

Commenting, etc

Commenting, supporting and opposing

Supporting and opposing

  • To respond to a nomination, click the "Edit" link to the right of the article nomination (not the "Edit this page" link for the whole FAC page). All editors are welcome to review nominations; see the review FAQ for an overview of the review process.
  • To support a nomination, write *'''Support''', followed by your reason(s), which should be based on a full reading of the text. If you have been a significant contributor to the article before its nomination, please indicate this. A reviewer who specializes in certain areas of the FA criteria should indicate whether the support is applicable to all of the criteria.
  • To oppose a nomination, write *'''Object''' or *'''Oppose''', followed by your reason(s). Each objection must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. If nothing can be done in principle to address the objection, a coordinator may disregard it. References on style and grammar do not always agree; if a contributor cites support for a certain style in a standard reference work or other authoritative source, reviewers should consider accepting it. Reviewers who object are strongly encouraged to return after a few days to check whether their objection has been addressed. To withdraw the objection, strike it out (with <s> ... </s>) rather than removing it. Alternatively, reviewers may transfer lengthy, resolved commentary to the FAC archive talk page, leaving a link in a note on the FAC archive.
  • To provide constructive input on a nomination without specifically supporting or objecting, write *'''Comment''' followed by your advice.
  • For ease of editing, a reviewer who enters lengthy commentary may create a neutral fourth-level subsection, named either ==== Review by EditorX ==== or ==== Comments by EditorX ==== (do not use third-level or higher section headers). Please do not create subsections for short statements of support or opposition—for these a simple *'''Support''',*'''Oppose''', or *'''Comment''' followed by your statement of opinion, is sufficient. Please do not use a semicolon to bold a subheading; this creates accessibility problems.
  • If a nominator feels that an Oppose has been addressed, they should say so, either after the reviewer's signature, or by interspersing their responses in the list provided by the reviewer. Per talk page guidelines, nominators should not cap, alter, strike, or add graphics to comments from other editors. If a nominator finds that an opposing reviewer is not returning to the nomination page to revisit improvements, this should be noted on the nomination page, with a diff to the reviewer's talk page showing the request to reconsider.


Nominator(s): JokEobard (talk) 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:38, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a character from the Resident Evil game and film series; who is known for her red dress. This was originally written by Niemti before I and HopalongCasualty rewrote it. The article was further copyedited by JokEobard, which I feel like I should push through.

The article is currently GA and has received peer reviews by reviewers like Aoba47 UndercoverClassicist Damien Linnane, PanagiotisZois, Tintor2, Fritzmann2002 after inviting some of them. I feel like the article is ready for the FA criteria and would appreciate more feedback. Thanks 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:38, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Ada_Wong_in_Resident_Evil_2_remake.png needs a complete FUR
Hi. I think I already resolved it. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 05:54, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I set out at peer review that I don't think the treatment of this character's sexuality/sexualisation is where it needs to be -- we have a lot of comments at the start of "Reception" as to her being a sex symbol, a feminist icon, a "bitch" and so on -- but nothing really set out to say where this comes from, other than that she's a woman and wears a (fairly unremarkable-looking, at least in the lead image) dress. There are also quite a few remaining grammar and prose errors. PR is advice rather than commandments, but it seems odd to bring the article here having left a lot of that feedback unactioned. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:34, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I already removed and replaced it about their relationship with Leon since I found another source. I felt like the peer review was stagnant already. But I already attempted to resolve everyone's concerns at the peer review and got no reply back. Can you be specific what are the other few prose errors so we can figure it where is it? Thanks. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 08:43, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You did make some small scale changes at PR, mostly to remove individual examples of e.g. "revealing" or "sexualised", but I didn't see a real response to the broader point about how the issue of sexualisation is framed across the article. It's more than a matter of taking out a few words: it's about the overall structure and flow of information, and making sure that we actually have good evidence for one of the article's most prominent arguments.
A few examples of the prose issues, but not an exhaustive list:
  • Game publications described Ada Wong as among the most popular and best female video game.
  • Magazines also praised her as one of the best female villain
  • Although digital media scholar Esther MacCallum-Stewart said that Resident Evil's female characters possess unique qualities making them viable choices for players to select over their male counterparts, and said their combat attire helped them avoid criticism of adhering to the male gaze.
  • Play editor Gavin Mackenzie criticized her perceived "bitch" personality in Resident Evil 4 in retrospective from the events of Resident Evil 2
  • correspond to the submissive woman–femme fatale character couple
In themselves, these are fairly easy to fix, but the reason for bringing them up is that I think they illustrate that the article really needs a bit more looking-over, including but not only for the matters brought up at PR, before it comes here. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:41, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize if I was a bit rushed. But yeah, I can admit that writing in the reception section can be hard. Anyway, I made some changes to the prose issues you mentioned [1], though I couldn't change/remove the last part "submissive" since it's part of the author's quote. But I reworded the next sentence after that. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 11:01, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And I apologise for repeating myself, but I don't think this is a matter of tweaking a few sentences: I think the evidence base of the article needs a good look, and then the article itself needs to be reworked so that either a) the commentary about sexualisation, feminism and so on has some evidence from the games to support it, or b) the article is reworked to ensure that what it says is proportioned according to what it can demonstrate. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:43, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pending to recheck the sources; discussion was moved to the talk page. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 13:06, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator(s): Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 13:11, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a rather short article (less than 1500 words) about the 1973 FA Charity Shield, the curtain-raiser to the 1973–74 season. It is arguably Burnley's most recent major honour, although many will argue it is just a meaningless match to kick off the new season. All comments are appreciated! Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 13:11, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Nominator(s): Noorullah (talk) 00:25, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about an Afghan Emperor of India, his reign is known for a myriad of administrative and economic reforms, alongside a highly military career. His reforms laid the ground-work for the Mughal Empire under Akbar after him. First nomination errors have been fixed with prose significantly improved. Nomination 2 was me accidently nominating it before waiting for a 2 week deadline, so ignore that. Noorullah (talk) 00:25, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Avoid sandwiching text between images
  • Why is there a Gallery section with one image?
  • Don't use fixed px size
  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:Painting_of_Sher_Shah_Suri_(colored)_from_a_manuscript_of_Tarikh-i-Khandan-i-Timuriya,_prepared_by_the_court_painters_of_Mughal_emperor_Akbar,_circa_16th_century.jpg needs a US tag
  • File:Sher_Shah_Suri_by_Breshna.jpg: source link is dead; when and where was this first published?
  • File:North_view_of_the_fort_of_Chunargarh_on_the_Ganges_from_across_the_river..jpg: source link is dead; needs a US tag
  • File:Mughal_Emperor_Humayun.jpg needs a US tag
  • File:Portrait_of_Sher_Shah_Sur._Water_colour_painting.png: when and where was this first published? Ditto File:Portrait_of_Sher_Shah_Suri_with_a_Lion.png
  • File:H0900-L185162829.jpg is missing author, and when and where was this first published?
@Nikkimaria I believe I have addressed all above issues (except alt text), let me know if there is something else to fix with them, or if I did anything incorrect. Noorullah (talk) 05:53, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Still missing alt text, and several images are still missing info on first publication. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:32, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The sourcing here concerns me. Some illustrative but not exhaustive examples:

  • Four cites are to a website called Banglapedia: it appears to be down at the moment, but what makes it a reliable source? Answered below, although I don't think it really changes the overall picture. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:03, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some of the sources do not look particularly scholarly:
  • Chaurasia 2002 doesn't really pass the "sniff test" -- lots of typos, grammatical errors and odd prose throughout -- but also comes from an Indian publisher called Atlantic Books, who look pretty close to a vanity publisher to me.
  • Bhattacherje 2009 is a big, popular book of dates and events -- not really a scholarly or specialist work of any kind. There are quite a few other books that are similarly broad-brush in scope: Welsh 2013, Puri and Das 2003, Wright (and Wright?) 2015.
  • We have quite heavy use of a source from 1925, one each to works from 1905 and 1903, and three citations to one from 1580. That's quite a lot of weight on very old sources.
  • Mehta ND (should be 1984) is a textbook (tertiary source), which we wouldn't normally consider a first-choice option.
  • Dias 1996 is a textbook -- for students of hospitality.

Oppose for now on quality of sources -- the article needs to be based on high-quality academic works which have undergone rigorous editorial and peer-review processes. At the very least, there is far too much "dross" here: sources which are not up to the bar as high-quality, up-to-date, scholarly works by experts in the article's subject. It may be that the article has enough to run on once they are removed, but we would be talking about a new draft by that point. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:44, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of these sources are very secondary in use mainly backing up other sources that are present in the article, a majority of the sources you've listed above can be removed completely without issue. Banglapedia is made by a historian and is on google scholars. [2] -- Zulfiqar Ali Khan (the 1925 source) is also cited on google scholars, and his source is often cited with a plethora more rather then being the only "primary" source.
Welsh is used to cite something in popular culture, not a significant part of the article. The Wrights are also on google scholars [3], I've limited the use of the 1580 source further.
The rest of the sources you mentioned that are fairly unreliable have been removed (with really no changes to the text). May you identify other sources that could have issues, or let me know if there's still something questionable about the above sources I've tried to clear? Thanks. Noorullah (talk) 17:06, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@UndercoverClassicist (ping) Noorullah (talk) 17:06, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want this to turn into a WP:FIXLOOP, but:
  • Being on Google Scholar is a much lower bar than we need -- we need WP:HQRS, to be able to demonstrate that the source is reliable, reviewed by experts in the field, and generally represents the best of contemporary scholarship on its subject.
  • There are still some clearly non-scholarly and non-specialist sources in the bibliography -- Dhir 2022, for instance.
  • Note 97 is a YouTube video, which would normally be highly suspect (as WP:SELFPUB).
If the article citing unreliable sources in addition to reliable ones, that's a false economy -- better just to cut out the weaker sources and leave the best citations. If you've got information that's only found in second-rate or very antiquated sources, it's worth asking the question as to what it's doing in the article: in general, if high-quality modern sources don't think it worth mentioning, we don't either. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:12, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The sources (referring to Ali Khan here) are widely cited by other secondary sources on the topic of Sher Shah Suri. I think it's authenticity/general reliability is relatively undoubted.
I've done a last review of extensively checking out sources in this edit [4] and removing sources that would be considered non-WP:HISTRS.
The youtube video is a reference to popular culture section, which I've removed. -- Nonetheless, I've tried to cut out what I saw as the weaker sources.
I understand if you don't want this to become FIXLOOP, so you can ultimately stop responding and keep your decision an oppose if you wish (and the other nominators may weigh in what they think after on what could be improved). Noorullah (talk) 19:41, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@UndercoverClassicist: With regard to one issue you raised, en.banglapedia.org is the Asiatic Society of Bangladesh's web version of their ten volume print encyclopedia, Banglapedia. The site has been inaccessible for five days because the government of Bangladesh has shut down the internet in the country as part of an attempt to suppress wide spread anti-government protests.
After trying other content management systems over the years, the society settled on MediaWiki. Unlike Wikipedia and many other wikis, however, it is not open and their content is not user-generated. Banglapedia follows the old-fashioned encyclopedia model of the chief editor (Sirajul Islam) inviting a subject matter expert to write each article. Authors of important topics are often preeminent in their fields and have written multiple books on the subject. The author of one article cited here, for example, is ABM Shamsuddin Ahmed, a professor of history who, among other things, was on the country's National Curriculum and Textbook Board. Another author is Abdul Karim (historian), who was vice-chancellor of the University of Chittagong.
What makes Banglapedia a reliable source are the authors, editorial process, and academic publisher. As an encyclopedia, though, it is a tertiary source and so should be used to a lesser extent than secondary sources. --Worldbruce (talk) 01:36, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Worldbruce: Thank you: that's all extremely useful. Given that information, I'd concur with your judgement as to the use of the site. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:00, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]



Citation numbers refer to this version:

  • The "Rise to power (1497–1528)" subsection. "embarked on implementing numerous reforms. His early administrative career focused on combating corruption ... along with defining and establishing commissions for tax collectors...who had initially forced him to flee...resigning from his post in 1518, after serving as manager for 21 years. All of the above are not on Mehta p. 164.
  • Citation 2b: "following his conquest of the Mughal Empire in 1540" is not supported by the source
  • Citation 2d: NONE of "During this time, Behar Khan Lohani established an independent state in Bihar and assumed the title of Sultan Muhammad. With his jagirs secured, Farid Khan accompanied Behar Khan to Agra and arrived in April 1527, where he met Mughal emperor Babur. During this time, Farid Khan was conferred the title of Sher Khan after killing a tiger that lept upon the ruler of Bihar." is supported by Kolff p. 33
  • Citation 39: "Humayun remained in Gauda for months, restoring order to the city despite being stuck there due to the weather. Meanwhile, Sher Khan advanced into Humayun's territory, seizing Bihar" is not supported by Mehta p. 168

These were the first four citations I checked and they all have problems. The prose is also substandard—see the first paragraph of "Rise to power (1497–1528)". Ignoring that quite a lot isn't supported by the source, the prose is highly repetitive and rather clunky. I think that to achieve FA status, at least 500 words, maybe more, needs to be cut.

Oppose, clearly significant work needs to be done. Additionally, I agree with UC on the old sourcing: a 99-year-old source which is basically a hagiography is cited over twenty times. This article will not pass FAC without a sourcing overhaul. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:16, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for sharing this — I’ll definitely go over these and try to fix further issues when I have the time. Noorullah (talk) 23:38, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator(s): TWOrantulaTM (enter the web) 01:18, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, Letterpress. A shining gem among a sea of cheap, soulless, free-to-play mobile games. A game that touches players with its simplicity, designed entirely from the ingenuity of Loren Brichter. What better way to spend time than battling it out with words you had no idea existed until you pulled up the dictionary to cheat?

When I first met this article, it was but a mere three sentences. Over the course of (nearly) a year, I began to expand the article to its fullest potential. I put it up for peer review (twice), and it passed GA status in an instant. At that moment, I knew what had to be done. I brought it to FAC, learned from that review, and requested for a copyedit at WP:GOCE/R. I even learned Inkscape! (Great tool, by the way.) Now I'm here. To say that I am satisfied that this article is no longer a stub is an understatement. I hope to make history and achieve my very first featured article. Thank you, TWOrantulaTM (enter the web) 01:18, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from UC

  • I must admit that I find the explanation of how the game actually works pretty confusing. I think we need to start with the idea that both players are given the same grid of letters -- if I've got it right, you then have to draw from those letters to make words, and doing so gives you that many points and "locks" any tiles where you've got (two of? all of?) the tiles touching it?
  • Some quite basic statements seem overcited: do we really need four different sources to say that there are two players and 25 tiles? One is the Manchester Evening News, which is pretty low-grade source, put mildly.
    • I was unsure how to use the sources Teratix provided me, so I figured, "Why not overcite everything? That's using sources, right?"
  • The copyright claim on the three images is potentially dubious to me -- I know they are your own work, but they are also pretty clearly derivative works of the original game. Now, that game itself is only made up of basic shapes, letters and colours, but there's a lot of distinctive combination of those that, at least to my non-expert mind, would seem to pass the threshold of originality. Now, there's a very possible fair-use rationale for including a visual demonstration of how a game's fundamental gameplay loop works, but we'd need to upload the images locally to Wikipedia and write one of those.
  • On a similar note, we can't claim the icon as the "own work" of the uploader. We could probably claim that it is ineligible for copyright because it only consists of simple geometric shapes: that would need {{PD-textlogo}}.
  • I find the lead leaves a few loose ends, or unanswered questions: take, for example, The gameplay gradually evolved during beta testing; in the prototype, players would avoid using unclaimed tiles, leading to excessively long games.. The obvious question raised here is "so what did they do about it?", and that's not answered until the body.
  • it was criticized for not having a single-player mode: later in the body, we talk about it having one, so presumably this was added later? Similarly to the above, I know that we can't include every detail in the lead, but we should avoid giving a misleading impression to readers who only read the lead.
  • two players compete to claim the most colored tiles on a grid of 25 letters: most colored is ambiguous: the most (coloured tiles) or the (most coloured) tiles?
  • Loren Brichter, the founder of Atebits 2.0: the footnote says a bit about why there was an Atebits 2.0, but I think we probably need to give a bit more context about what Atebits 1.0 was.
  • Brichter saw Letterpress as a way to experiment with new software: what new sofware?
  • players could indiscriminately create long words: indiscriminately is not the right word here (that means "without thinking about it"): try "freely"?
    • That's the word I was looking for! Changed.
  • The link on pressing letters to letterpress printing is a bit of an easter egg: I think we need to spell out that it's a pun with a double meaning.
    • I'm doubting it's named after that: "[Federico Vitici]: Why the name Letterpress? That evokes some print memories to me. Which is kind of anachronistic. -> [Loren Brichter]: Totally. The name just kind of grew on me. And the whole game is you pressing your letters with your finger. Letterpress. Not sure. Just liked it."
  • Brichter marketed Letterpress as freemium... why is this paragraph in the past tense?
    • Changed to "markets".
  • Letterpress has a "generally favorable" Metacritic rating based on eight critics: advise putting an as of on this statement (and checking it fairly regularly!)
    • I don't think that's necessary. Most video game articles I've seen don't add that + there hasn't been a new review for about a decade.
  • Reviewers found the strategic elements of Letterpress engaging, comparing it to Scrabble, Reversi, Connect Four, Go, SpellTower, Words With Friends, and chess.: that's a lot of different comparisons. Can we say anything about how they compared it with each of these games?
  • Game Center, Apple's multiplayer network service: I would explain what this is on first mention, rather than second. Does it still use Game Center when it's on Google Play, for example?
    • Changed.
  • Despite Wiskus acknowledging the negative impact on user experience, he mitigated it with iMessage. He also highlighted the friction in initiating rematches, which led to simultaneous matches between players: I don't really understand what either of these sentences mean.
  • Letterpress was among a list of minimalist apps provided to inspire Jony Ive, a designer for Apple's iOS 7: provided by whom?
    • Doesn't say (unless I'm overlooking something here): "Along with music app Rdio, word game Letterpress, and competing task app Clear, Any.do was among the apps that Apple looked to for inspiration as it redesigned iOS, according to people familiar with the matter. When Jony Ive took over as the company’s head of design, he was given a list of forward-looking apps that suggested how iOS could evolve..."
  • Looking at the last FAC, I'm not sure the sources provided by User:Teratix have been fully incorporated -- in such a short article, we have the luxury of space to talk about how the game has been studied, for example.
    • Shoot! I was hoping that would get solved.

I suspect I'm at a bit of a disadvantage knowing very little about the topic, but in other ways that makes me the target audience -- I don't really get the feeling, at the moment, that I fully know what's going on, whereas there are plenty of current FAs that manage to hold your hand, even as a complete newcomer, so that you at last feel comfortable that you are getting the information with the context you need to understand it. It's a short article at the moment, and perhaps a bit more could go into padding out the explanations and context? UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:12, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies if I may be a little late with your comments. I picked a bad time to nominate this article because of how busy my life is getting now. TWOrantulaTM (enter the web) 05:33, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator(s): voorts (talk/contributions) 21:34, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Costello's was a watering hole for journalists, writers, and cartoonists on the east side of Midtown Manhattan. Ernest Hemingway reportedly broke a cane over John O'Hara's head on a bet; the bar's owner responded by displaying the broken cane over the bar. I wish I could have dropped in for a whiskey there. As an aside, I've been having trouble finding images that are either in the PD or that would satisfy WP:NFCCP, particularly photographs of Tim Costello and the bar's exterior and interior. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:34, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Vacant0


Will leave some comments here after I have a look at the article. --Vacant0 (talkcontribs) 12:19, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Shouldn't the second note be at the end of the first sentence? It is currently at the end of the second sentence.
  • Do we know why they moved premises in 1949?
  • The Overlook website is a primary source and I do not understand what it is supposed to verify. The NYT source confirms 225 East 44th Street and that it is a sports bar, I verify the year, though.

Source review


Will review this in a bit. lunaeclipse (talk) 21:28, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drive by comments by DWB

Nominator(s): – The Sharpest Lives (💬✏️ℹ️) (ping me!) 15:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about an album by an Asian-american, all girl punk band that I think is pretty awesome. I have been working on the article for quite some time, achieved GA status and DYK, and just closed a peer review. I think it is ready now. I hope y'all agree! – The Sharpest Lives (💬✏️ℹ️) (ping me!) 15:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]



In the composition section, only half of the songs have any commentary or information about them. I feel like this does not meet WP:FACR criteria 1b "it neglects no major facts or details". There doesn't have to be a paragraph for each song, but no information for 5/11 of the songs seems like either the article cannot meet FA due to lack of commentary or source material has been overlooked. Based on this alone I would have to oppose at the moment. I would accept 1 or 2 words, (ie 'this song is a ballad', 'this one is uptempo') but to have zero information for so many songs unfortunately doesn't meet the criteria in my opinion. Heartfox (talk) 21:57, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator(s): – zmbro (talk) (cont) 14:45, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about... Bruce Springsteen's third studio album Born to Run. A make a break record for the singer-songwriter, it's easy to say he made it (very well). Now regarded by many as his magnum opus (although this editor would argue Darkness on the Edge of Town or Nebraska), I rewrote this article from the ground up and after its GAN it went through a helpful peer review and I believe it's now ready for the star. I'm looking forward to any comments or concerns. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 14:45, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]



I'll take a look at this one when I have a sufficient block of uninterrupted time..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:20, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]



It's great to see an article on a major popular music album here instead of the more common FACs on modern pop. I'd like to offer the following comments:

  • " was designed to break him into the mainstream" - bit clunky
  • "the band and producers spent six months alone working on the title track" - seems like trivia for the lead
  • I would say otherwise because it displays how "prolonged and grueling" the sessions were; plus, most songs did not take that long to record, especially at the time. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 23:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Springsteen's lack of direction and confidence" - this appears out of the blue after text that stresses that Springsteen was ambitious about the record
  • Removed confidence
  • "Springsteen was sent multiple mixes as he was on the road and rejected all of them, approving the final one in early August." - this needs to be tweaked: if he rejected all of them how could he have approved one?
  • "such as a road can take you anywhere" - I suspect that a 'that' is missing here
  • Fixed
  • ""Born to Run" uses an automobile to escape from a depressing life" - this is unclear
  • "The success of Born to Run revitalized Springsteen's career" - this is unclear given the article previously stresses that the album led Springsteen to move from relative obscurity into stardom.
  • Had the album been performed live in total before 2008?
  • Not that I could find. Setlists for the Born to Run tours are hard to find. I know he has performed all the songs from Born to Run quite often since 1975, but the album itself in order front to back I could not find. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 23:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator(s): 𝘮𝘪𝘤𝘩𝘢𝘦𝘭'𝘴 𝘥𝘦𝘢𝘳 𝘮𝘦𝘭𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘩𝘰𝘭𝘺, 12:10, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the 2016 single by the Weeknd and Daft Punk. The single is a disco-pop track in which the Weeknd tries to reassure his lover to not be scared of falling in love, despite her own failed relationships. With a Warren Fu-directed music video about a "love story in a cursed land", the song peaked at number four on the Billboard Hot 100.

6 months ago, I checked this article out. I noticed that... it wasn't very detailed, so I decided to add some stuff. After a ton of work, I have finally decided to take this to FAC, to become my first (and likely) my only FA. I spent the time between the DYK nomination and this working on its prose, as the DYK reviewer had some concerns about it, so i started to tighten some unnecessary things. I have heard stuff about FAC's being "harsh" which is why for about a month, I have put off doing this. But after a spark of inspiration, I came back to this article and made some final adjustments. I believe this article is ready. 𝘮𝘪𝘤𝘩𝘢𝘦𝘭'𝘴 𝘥𝘦𝘢𝘳 𝘮𝘦𝘭𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘩𝘰𝘭𝘺, 12:10, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]



Stopping here. Oppose per 1a, 1c. Heartfox (talk) 19:48, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator(s): Mattximus (talk) 19:13, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is my second attempt at nominating this obscure worm. I believe I've made all changes requested in previous nomination, and peer review and captured all relevant literature (there is not much), but am ready to make any and all suggestions here. Thanks in advance!Mattximus (talk) 19:13, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Sure! I made a large number of edits on May 8th just before the FAC closed, but it was not enough to garner support. I then went through all comments and did some rewrites on June 4th to try and make sure every single comment was addressed. Is that the information you were looking for? Also thank you for taking the time to review such an obscure article. Mattximus (talk) 15:15, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've compared my last comments with the current version, and a few points still stand out, listed below. I believe that's all, but it's a bit difficult to figure out after this time. FunkMonk (talk) 23:11, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Two reviewers have suggested conversions for measurements, which has not been done.
  • I added this to the lead, but there are so many measurements in the body that it looked like a complete mess with double the measurements. I'm not sure that non-metric measurements are needed in a scientific article, apart from the lead which provides an overview. Is this critical to passing FA? It would make parts of the body almost unreadable.
  • There is still a good deal of duplinks. They can be highlighted with this script:[7]
  • Done. Thanks for sharing that script, I'm going to use it from now on.
  • Anything on on how the type specimens were collected? From one or more moles?
  • Unfortunately not, I did my best to relay all information regarding the collection from the original document. It's also the only paper to mention the sampling.
Nominator(s): Epicgenius (talk) 15:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about another skyscraper in New York City. This office building, constructed for the Time and Life Company, opened in 1960 as part of an expansion of Rockefeller Center. It's distinctive not so much for its exterior (which resembles any other 1960s office building in NYC), but for its whimsical modern interiors, which include a serpentine pavement, steel-and-marble walls, and burgundy glass ceilings. The building also featured a dining club, stores, and even an auditorium. Perhaps the design of the interiors is why the building was nearly fully occupied a year after it opened.

This page became a Good Article three years ago after a Good Article review by A person in Georgia, for which I am very grateful. After some more recent copyedits, I think the page is up to FA quality. I look forward to all comments and feedback. Epicgenius (talk) 15:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]



I'll get to this in the coming days. joeyquism (talk) 23:03, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Below are some comments on prose, most of which are nits; feel free to refuse with justification:


  • "The lobby contains serpentine floors; white-marble and stainless-steel walls; reddish-burgundy glass ceilings; and artwork by Josef Albers, Fritz Glarner, and Francis Brennan." - I think that the semicolons here should be replaced with commas, though I recognize that this is technically proper usage as the last clause itself contains a list with commas. Just a small grammatical nitpick on my part.
  • The first instance of Time Inc. should be wikilinked. Premature apologies for further comments on wikilinking - I recognize that it can be a bit of a nuisance to the nominator and that there are certain MOS standards that should be upheld with regards to it, though I will try to keep it to a minimum here.
  • "Construction started in May 1957; the building was topped out during November 1958; and occupants began moving into their offices in late 1959." - In this case, however, the second semicolon should be a comma, as the last clause is not independent (contains "and").


  • No glaring issues.


  • I happened to be familiar with Syska Hennessy for reasons I am not too sure of at the moment; however, to someone who may be unfamiliar, it could appear to be a person with a rather unconventional name. Would mentioning that it's an engineering firm (or just a firm/company) be worth it here, in your opinion?
  • Wikilink Limestone in "1271 Avenue of the Americas' facade is made mostly of glass, which at the time of the building's construction cost the same as a wall made mostly of limestone."
  • Wikilink Canopy (architecture) in "At ground level, there is a canopy over the 51st Street entrance." I won't include further comments on wikilinking from here, though I would suggest it be done for the more technical terms such as emissivity, parapet and terrazzo. I will leave the determination of what could be considered technical up to you, unless more elaboration is requested. Hoping this isn't too big a bother :( I realize that I'm being rather pedantic here.
  • "Internally, 1271 Avenue of the Americas was divided into eight zones for air-conditioning." - Is this currently how the building is set up, or has there been further development here (as of right now, I am not sure whether the upgrade in 1957 was done to address this division). I think that "initially" between "was" and "divided" would be a good disambiguation, though if it's set up like this now, perhaps change "was" to "is".
  • "The ceiling throughout the lobby is 16 ft (4.9 m) high. The ceiling is made of dark maroon glass tiles, finished in a matte covering, with white lighting coves in some tiles." - Perhaps these can be combined into one sentence?
  • "The interiors were designed by Alexander Girard and furniture by Charles Eames." - In contrast to my previous supplications that other terms be wikilinked, I will suggest that the names of the designers be unlinked to avoid too-close duplicate linking.
  • "This arrangement was inspired by the PSFS Building in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania." - In its current location, this sentence feels a bit out of place, as the arrangement hasn't been described other than the footage of the floors and the presence of columns. Perhaps this could go at the end of the paragraph instead, or could be expounded upon with regards to how it was the column arrangement that was inspired by the Philly building.
  • No further issues with the rest of the section.


  • Apologies, I lied. David Sarnoff has an article you could wikilink in "NBC ultimately dropped out of the project because its CEO, David Sarnoff, dissented."
  • "In addition, Major League Baseball moved its headquarters to the building,[162][163] and it leased two stories in the building's base for use as an MLB Store, which opened in 2020." - Should "MLB Store" be in title case here?
  • Rest of this section is straightforward and well-written.


  • No glaring issues.

@Epicgenius: It was a pleasure to read Hearst Tower when it was at FAC, and I'm glad to say the same for this article. This is looking to be in great shape already, and once my comments are addressed, I will likely come back to support. Looking forward to your responses, and I hope you're having a wonderful week so far. joeyquism (talk) 20:07, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments @Joeyquism, and hope you're having a good week as well. I'll take a look at these on Thursday. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:25, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Joeyquism, thanks again for the comments. I've addressed all of your comments, and I added a few more relevant links (though I'll see if there are any other terms that I can link tomorrow). – Epicgenius (talk) 22:55, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looks great! I won't hold you any longer for further wikilinking; I'm already glad to support this FAC for nomination. Hope you're having a great week so far! joeyquism (talk) 00:06, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 19:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In 1858 a mix up over two barrels of white powder led to twenty deaths and over 200 ill with arsenic poisoning. Food purity laws had not been thought of and arsenic was readily available over the counter, which was a recipe for tragedy - and all for a few sweeties. - SchroCat (talk) 19:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

  • "The adulteration of food had been practised in the UK since before the middle ages" I might add something like "with chemicals" or some such to state what they were adulterated with.
    I've outlined that in the following sentences. It's not always chemicals: leaves were added to tea and flour to mustard, for example. - SchroCat (talk) 07:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The extent of the arsenic-related deaths was such ..." I assume we are talking about accidents AND murder here. Why not start with "So many people died of arsenic poisoning ..."?
    Done - SchroCat (talk) 07:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is anything said about the taste of arsenic trioxide?
    Added (thankfully without the need for OR!) - SchroCat (talk) 07:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there information about where the arsenic comes from? Is is a by-product of some process?
    We've got in there that arsenic trioxide is industrially produced: is anything more needed for this article? - SchroCat (talk) 07:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The medical historian James C Whorton" Anything after the C?
    Oops. . added
  • I don't know if this would help you or not.
    Thanks for that. I read that one when researching; the core of the important information is all in The Times too, which is the one I cited.
  • In the references I see The Daily Telegraph unitalicised.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorted - SchroCat (talk) 07:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Wehwalt - much obliged. - SchroCat (talk) 07:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Wehwalt (talk) 13:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]



I'll get to this soon. Apologies for not being able to get to Elinor Fettiplace in time. joeyquism (talk) 20:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not keen on chemistry myself (it was one of my lesser-attended subjects), so I will not be able to comment on accuracy. I am, however, keen on good writing and candy, both of which are certainly featured in this article. I've noted a few things below for the sake of being thorough, some being nits - feel free to refuse with justification:



  • I believe the following sentences would flow better if merged with a semicolon: "Cost was the reason adulterants were used. Sugar, for example, cost 6½ d per pound; the adulterant cost ½ d per pound."
  • Same with these: "So many people died of arsenic poisoning that legislation in the form of the Arsenic Act 1851 was introduced. It was the first piece of UK legislation to attempt to control the sale of a poisonous substance."
    Both done - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


  • As a Yankee, I was initially confused by "7½ d" (perhaps I just lack numismatistic knowledge) - I now understand this to mean pence, though I could be wrong and be actively embarrassing myself right now. Would it be worth it to write it out, or include a link to £sd?
    It's linked in the above section (when we discuss "6½ d per pound;")

Investigation, arrests and court case

  • "On the Sunday morning the local police" - Should this be just "On Sunday morning"/"On the following [Sunday] morning", or is this a grammar variance thing? In America it's usually just "On [day of the week]", but I recognize that this is a British-specific article, so if this is considered proper British English, feel free to chastise me for my ignorance.
    This is fine in BrEng (both are acceptable, but this makes a little more sense in this instance). - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Neal's wife also admitted that she had found other fragments and thrown them on to the fire" - May have missed it in context, but I'm not seeing any prior mention of a fire; in this case would it be clearer to say "thrown them into a fire"?
    The definite article is a little more widely used in BrEng than AmEng, and while both are usable here, we'd probably prefer it here as there was one fire in the location. If there were multiple, we'd use "a". - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "By the end of Wednesday, fifteen people has been reported dead" - "has" should be "had"
    Yep, good spot. - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


  • "The deaths led to calls for legislation to stop similar events occurring" - Add "from" between "events" and "occurring"
    I think both are correct in BrEng, but this way feels/sounds more natural to my ear. - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The medical historian James C. Whorton considers the Act 'was next to useless'" - Should this be "considered"? Also not sure of the inclusion of "was" in the quote.
    Not only is Wharton still alive, but his text, with his opinion, is also still in existence, so "was" is correct". - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, I very much enjoyed reading this article (though not to say I endorse the subject matter's happening). I do question my own critiques at times here, particularly those related to grammar, so if I've made any faux pas or caused any offense, please let me know. Looking forward to your replies, and I hope you're having a wonderful beginning to your week. joeyquism (talk) 08:09, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks User:Joeyquism. All sorted, except where commented on above. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the replies! I have no further comments; glad to support. joeyquism (talk) 15:02, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review by Generalissima

  • File:The Great Lozenge-Maker A Hint to Paterfamilias.jpg - PD (but needs US tag)
    Now added - SchroCat (talk) 07:13, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Arsenic trioxide.jpg - PD
  • File:As4O6-molecule-from-arsenolite-xtal-3D-balls.png - PD
  • File:Bradford,1863.png - PD, with US tag
  • File:West Yorkshire UK location map.svg - CC-BY-SA 3.0
  • File:John Henry Bell (1832-1906).jpeg - I think this needs the UK PD tag too (and should be ported to commons TBH)
    Transferred, source and licence updated - SchroCat (talk) 07:13, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 21:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Generalissima; all sorted. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 07:13, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good to me - Support. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 15:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh - I realized I actually had one prose question. I have no idea at all what a lozenge is in this context; I'm familiar with throat lozenges but I doubt that's what these Victorian children were eating. I assume it's a sort of hardy candy? Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 15:57, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately the sources don't make it too clear (although I'll go over them again to check there are no little hints I can include). I think, much like throat lozenges, these were a boiled sweet, much in the line of humbugs, but that's a bit of OR. - SchroCat (talk) 18:18, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Did a little googling and according to this history of candy, lozenges originated as a type of gummy fruit-flavored medicinal candy, and the name mostly referred to their diamond shape. As time went on, they seem to have stopped being gummy and many have lost their traditional shape and medicinal nature, but they remain mostly fruity. So basically - fruit candy, I think. ♠PMC(talk) 01:14, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now I've gone back over the sources, I suspect you're probably right, although two sources refer to them being humbugs, which is a hard-boiled sweet (literally boiling the sugary syrup and letting it dry into a hard sweet. The description we have of the manufacturing process (it's in the article in the last paragraph of the Background section) doesn't mention boiling the sugar at all, which would suggest a more 'gummy'-style sweet. All this is OR, unfortunately, so I think we may be best just leaving the description in place as the only explanation, rather than trying to 'translate' it to a modern type of sweet. - SchroCat (talk) 08:18, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by RoySmith

  • I don't know if I'll do a full review, but one thing jumped out at me. In File:As4O6-molecule-from-arsenolite-xtal-3D-balls.png, there's six oxygens, not three, as the name "arsenic trioxide" would indicate. Presumably this is a dimer. I don't think there's any need to do a deep dive into the chemistry, but this obvious (to anybody trained in chemistry) discrepancy needs to be at least be mentioned. Oddly enough (and that's an understatement), Arsenic trioxide, which is the deep dive, doesn't mention this either, but that's somebody else's problem. RoySmith (talk) 23:24, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not a chemist by any stretch, so thanks for that. Caption now tweaked. - SchroCat (talk) 07:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The chemist Arthur Hill Hassall was prominent in the field of food analysis and the first person to systematically study food through a microscope. The source says "Hassall became well known as the first food chemist to make a systematic use of the microscope to detect fraudulent additions to food." That's not quite the same thing. Over at DYK, we've learned to be wary about claims of somebody or something being a "first", since those claims so often turn out not to be true. In this case, there's a couple of issues. One is "being well known as the first" is not the same as actually being the first. The other is that the source talks specifically about food chemists, but you expanded that to all people. For all we know, there was somebody doing this kind of investigation earlier but they weren't a food chemist. RoySmith (talk) 01:28, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Reworded. - Many thanks for your comments, and I'd be delighted to hear more, if you have any. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 07:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    arsenic trioxide is the common name for the substance and the As4O6 is the molecular form it takes at standard conditions. So the caption was OK to start with. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 04:41, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, I've put it back to the original. - SchroCat (talk) 08:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Doing a read-through now...

  • highly poisonous arsenic trioxide I think we need a source for "highly poisonous". https://wwwn.cdc.gov/TSP/MMG/MMGDetails.aspx?mmgid=1424&toxid=3 says "Arsenic trioxide ... is one of the most toxic and prevalent forms of arsenic" but that's a relative measure. Later on it says "When arsenic trioxide is burned, it releases ... arsine gas ... which is highly toxic" which implies that the unburned substance isn't.
    "highly poisonous" is hyperbole. I would just say "poisonous". Substances that kill in milligram quantities could be called "highly poisonous".
    Went with just "poisonous" - SchroCat (talk) 08:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • practised in the UK since before the Middle Ages the UK didn't exist in the middle ages, so that's a bit of an odd statement.
    Changed to "Britain", which both did and didn't exist - SchroCat (talk) 08:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • harmless additions, such as chicory, I think you want a semicolon after chicory, not a comma? On the other hand, this is a monster sentence; maybe break it into several? Something like "First were harmless additions such as chicory (full stop) Alternatively, adding flour to mustard ... tea leaves (full stop) And finally, toxic additions such as ..."
    No, it needs a comma, as it's a list of three things that were the first category of 'harmless additions'. The rest of the sentence (also a list, split by semi-colon) comprises explanation and examples of what is in the other two categories. - SchroCat (talk) 08:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, I see that now. But I still think breaking this up into multiple sentences would improve readabiltity. I did a little research about commas vs semicolons and found this bit of advice: "There is no rule limiting the number of independent clauses in a single sentence, however, the reader’s ability to comprehend the sentence will certainly decrease if a compound sentence “rages on and on,” even if the conjunctions and punctuation are correct." I think that applies here.
    It's not just the two-level list, there's constructs like introducing alum, gypsum or chalk into white bread or tree or shrub leaves into tea leaves. I had to read that several times to figure out that it needs to be parsed as "introducing [(alum, gypsum or chalk) into white bread] or [(tree or shrub leaves) into tea leaves]" RoySmith (talk) 18:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, reworked a little now. - SchroCat (talk) 07:27, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those adulterating foodstuff used nicknames to hide the practice it took me a few readings to figure out that "those" refers to "the people doing the adulterating" and not "the foodstuffs". Some rewording might clarify this.
    Good point, tweaked. - SchroCat (talk) 08:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • cost 6½ d per pound I see you've already discussed this with Wehwalt, but the use of "d" can indeed be confusing for those not familiar with historical British coinage. I know you linked "d" to Penny (British pre-decimal coin), but a single-letter link isn't easy to notice, so I suggest something like "cost 6½ d (pence) per pound" and link "pence".
    Let me think on this one - it's a rather non-standard approach and this format hasn't been an issue in other articles I've written, so I want to have a look round at other examples. - SchroCat (talk) 08:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • soft furnishings what are these?
    I believe Americans call them "softgoods". - SchroCat (talk) 08:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Perhaps link to Consumables? RoySmith (talk) 18:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's not right (it includes stationery etc too). I've linked it to the Wiki dictionary, which should cover things. - SchroCat (talk) 18:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • coloured with soot or indigo t Link to Indigo dye
    Done - SchroCat (talk) 08:06, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I know I suggested earlier the use of "dimer", but I'm not actually sure I gave correct advice. I've asked for help from a SME.
    It may be a dimer, but that is not so important in the context of this article. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 04:41, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is used as a wood preservative... Chromated copper arsenate would be a better link target.
    I think that would be an WP:EASTEREGG - SchroCat (talk) 08:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • it was thought that the cause of the deaths was cholera I would establish context by mentioning that this happened during the 1846–1860 cholera pandemic.
    Interestingly none of the sources mention the cholera outbreak, so we'd be possibly guilty of SYNTH or OR if we connect the two, but I'm going back through the sources to see if I can find a connection. - SchroCat (talk) 08:06, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It's not OR to observe that 1858 is between 1846 and 1860 :-) But, yes, you are right that it is OR to infer that "the reason people suspect this was cholera was because of the ongoing pandemic". Perhaps "The Halloween sweets that poisoned Bradford". bbc.com. which says Initially, the doctor who saw nine-year-old Elijah Wright in the early hours of Halloween 1858 thought the boy had died from cholera. Surgeon John Roberts thought the symptoms - vomiting and convulsions - were consistent with the disease, which had been rife in England. is what you need to connect them? RoySmith (talk) 18:33, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, now added. I found some information about the similarity of symptoms between the two as well, so that all looks much stronger now. - SchroCat (talk) 07:23, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like all my concerns have been addressed, so adding my support. As an aside, when I saw this listed, what draw my interest was thinking about the scene in It's a Wonderful Life where the pharmacist Mr. Gower accidentally mixes poison into some pills he is making, killing a patient. That scene takes place around 1920 or so, 60 years after this event. Apparently such accidents were still commonplace enough that it would be believable to movie audiences. RoySmith (talk) 19:09, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks RoySmith. Funnily enough, even though Wonderful Life is one of my favourite films, I simply hadn't made the connection, but it's a very interesting thought that they happened within a lifetime of each other. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 19:34, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


  • Three men were arrested—the chemist who sold the arsenic, the sweet maker and the market seller who sold the sweets - That doesn't line up with the rest of the article, which goes on to tell me that the three people were put on trial, the sweet maker, the chemist and his assistant.
    Good spot - altered. - SchroCat (talk) 07:56, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The image shown for arsenic trioxide structure seems like it is the structure of arsenolite, the crystal mineral (with a formula As4O6) rather than arsenic trioxide. Maybe that be noted somewhere as a footnote since it's somewhat confusing to read "trioxide" and see 6 oxygen atoms.
    There's been quite a lot of back and forth on this, so I've just taken the image out altogether. - SchroCat (talk) 07:56, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • It was also used as a poison for murder. So many people died of arsenic poisoning that legislation in the form of the Arsenic Act 1851 was introduced; .... I think the phrasing here is confusing, was the arsenic poisoning cases deliberate, accidental or both
    Tweaked. - SchroCat (talk) 07:56, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Corollary to the above, can the previous statement be more rigorous, "many" seems a bit nebulous, are there numbers of how many peeps died of arsenic poisoning in 1850 that can be cited as a reason, or was it just public opinion ?
    There are no figures in the sources to back this up, just an acknowledgement by the authorities that there was a problem that needed dealing with. - SchroCat (talk) 07:56, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • for people to see them in the morning.
    Done - SchroCat (talk) 07:56, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • and in 1862 three children died at Christmas after eating sweets containing arsenic. That's a specific example the book cites to illustrate the fact that adulteration happened even after the passage of the mentioned act, it's not part of the actual reason why the Act was ineffective which is how it is portrayed in the article.
    I've taken it out - it doesn't add anything to the point. - SchroCat (talk) 07:56, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many thanks Sohom, now all addressed. - SchroCat (talk) 07:57, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
LGTM, I can't find much else to critique, I'm interested in supporting the nom. Sohom (talk) 12:25, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Graham Beards


The map is rather dark. I improved it but the Commons has tightened it's rules regarding overwriting of files: only the original poster can do so. Thoughts? Graham Beards (talk) 10:55, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Graham, That's a bit annoying of them! I can email you if you're happy to send me the file and I can upload? Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:00, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes let's do that and if you think it's not an improvement, no problem. Graham Beards (talk) 11:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Email sent. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:40, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perfect - thanks Graham. New image uploaded (although you may need to clear you cache to see it in place). Much better. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:13, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When I improve a commons image, I generally upload the new version under a new title, i.e. File:Washington Square by Matthew Bisanz (adjusted).jpg. No worries about overwriting the original. RoySmith (talk) 01:01, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are welcome and I am happy to add my Support. Thank you for all your work on the article. Graham Beards (talk) 13:27, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from PMC


Loving your current tear through British food history. I read Swindled a few years ago and immediately thought of it when I opened this; delighted to see it in the refs already. Comments within the week, throw popcorn if I don't make it. ♠PMC(talk) 00:59, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Popcorn thrown! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 04:36, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "For the sweets produced in Bradford, powdered gypsum was supposed to be purchased" passive voice here
  • "firstly were harmless additions, such as chicory, adding flour to mustard and watering down milk." the last two are self-explanatory, but what chicory does or is isn't clear from context.
  • "cheese with mercury salts" - should be "mercury salts added to cheese", since it's the salt that's the additive not the cheese
  • It may be too much detail for this article, but it's not clear from the text if all of the things mentioned as adulterants (ex. salts of copper and red lead) were known to be dangerous and were being illicitly mixed in instead of safer ingredients, or were added for their useful effects ignorant of actual danger
  • "Cost was the reason..." I might move this sentence up to para 1; I think it fits better there logically. Was that the on
  • "Sunday, Police Constable Campbell, was sent to investigate" - rm second comma
  • Why is Police Constable capitalized but chief constable isn't?
    Because our MOS is counter-intuitive and second rate. The use is correct as far as MOS:JOBTITLE instructs. - SchroCat (talk) 06:45, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Eventually up to twenty-one people died..." it feels odd that this sentence ends solely with the footnote. Do the refs in the footnote cover the ~200 ill as well? (imo the 20 vs 21 thing could be in-text vs in a footnote but I won't insist)
    Yes, both the refs support it, but I've lifted the footnote into the main text for you, so it's cited inline now. - SchroCat (talk) 06:45, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I've got. Quite an interesting little tragedy - I find myself feeling a little sorry for everyone involved. ♠PMC(talk) 04:02, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks PMC - all sorted. As always, thanks for your suggestions. - SchroCat (talk) 06:45, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Tim riley


Three minor points, none of which affect my support:

  • "Sulfuric acid" – seems a work of supererogation to take the stuff all the way to America and back when they could just add sulphuric acid at home.
  • "Joseph Neal, who made the sweets on Stone Street" – next time we lunch at my flat look out for what I'm slipping into your pudding: "in", not "on" in the King's English, for the umpteenth goddam time!
  • "Mary Midgley, a seven year old girl" – I'd shove a couple of hyphens in here.

That's my lot. Happy to support. The article seems to me to meet all the FA criteria. Glad(ish) to see SchroCat following in the beloved Brian Boulton's footsteps in regaling us with death and destruction on all sides. Be that as it may, I support the elevation of this article to FA, Tim riley talk 13:43, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Tim. I always try to leave in at least one 'on x street' for you. It's all part of an experiment to see what your breaking point is: I sense I may be close! - SchroCat (talk) 08:01, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Penitentes


This is a really toothsome article, despite the dire subject matter. Just a few quick comments, the resolution of which—as with PMC above—won't affect my vote to support.

  • An inquest was opened the following day. - Perhaps link to inquest?
  • ...the Food Adulteration Act 1860 was passed into law... - Since the Act itself has no article, would it be possible to add just a single sentence about what it did (or purported to do)? Reading that the poisoning helped motivate its passage and then immediately reading that it was considered ineffective makes me curious about what its contents were.

Cheers. — Penitentes (talk) 20:35, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Penitentes, Many thanks for these: both now enacted in these edits. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:42, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great work! — Penitentes (talk) 23:03, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sauce review


Books are all from reputable publishers and scholarly authors; all nice and modern sources (although of matters of arcane local history, older sources may be OK too: historiographical fashion changes like it's á la Milanese). Why are the ISBNs inconsistently laid out. With Davis Kindle ed., what does 487 denote. The journals are an excellent selection of blind peer-reviewed articles, except for History Today. Contemporaneous newspapers are used sparsely but wisely—always a tricky tightrope!—and are all absolute papers of record. And the BBC  :) As for websites, ODNB is generally reliable (joke: just don't tell Iridescent!).

This is a good fun, readable, but educational article of the kind you excel in Schrocat. Just reading it gave me early-onset diabetes, I think! By the way—nothing to do with the source review of course—but when you talk about the uses of Arsenic in Victorian England, it might be worth mentioning the prevalence of Arsenic eating? (And that's a redlink?!)[1][2][3] ——Serial Number 54129 21:05, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


  1. ^ Moon, Jina (2016-04-26). Domestic Violence in Victorian and Edwardian Fiction. Cambridge Scholars Publishing. ISBN 978-1-4438-9207-0.
  2. ^ Haller, John S. (1981). American Medicine in Transition, 1840-1910. University of Illinois Press. ISBN 978-0-252-00806-1.
  3. ^ Burney, Ian (2021-01-26). Poison, detection and the Victorian imagination. Manchester University Press. ISBN 978-1-5261-5863-5.
Many thanks SN. I've tweaked the ISBNs, so they should all be consistent. For Davis, it's the location in the e-book (older versions of books had no page numbers, but a location 'address'), so I've used that, which I've done in a few other FAs. I'm a bit surprised that's a red link - German WP has a page on it (Arsenikesser), but I think it may be a possible step too far away from this page. Thanks for the review. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:13, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator(s): Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 14:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One of the most successful cavalry commanders of the First World War, Sir Henry Macandrew would probably be more widely known if he hadn't accidentally killed himself in a pyjama-related explosion a year after the war ended. A British Indian Army officer, he fought in the Tirah campaign and Boer War before making his greatest impact commanding a division on the Western Front and in the Middle East. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 14:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments from SC

This breaches a few parts of the MOS without seemingly good reasons for doing so, and it would be best if you ensured it's MOS compliant before the reviews start rolling in. The points that caught my eye on a very quick look include:

  • A five para lead (MOS:LEADLENGTH says four at most and an article of this size, is suggests, should be two or three): Four would be acceptable, but not five.
  • Shortened.
  • WP:CITEBUNDLE is probably advisable for the places with four citations, and probably those with three
  • I couldn't figure out how to bundle, something I haven't done before, without breaking a lot of ref templates. I've split out the groups of 3 and 4 references instead.
  • There are two block quotes in the Post war section that shouldn't be block quote – they should be inline as they are less than forty words, but ...
  • Changed.
  • ... they should adhere to WP:ELLIPSIS in regard to the spacing.
  • Changed.

I'll try to return with a full review later. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 15:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • Added.
  • File:Henry_John_Milnes_MacAndrew.png: when and where was this first published and what is the author's date of death?
  • Author died in 1952.
  • Ditto File:Major_General_H_J_MacAndrew_mounted.jpg
  • File:Palestine-WW1-3.jpg: source link is dead
  • I have added the archive link.

Prose review by Generalissima

  • Shortened lede looks good.
  • Macandrew was awarded the India Medal with two clasps and mentioned in despatches This reads as if the medal was mentioned in despatches, which I don't think is the intention; I think was mentioned in despatches and awarded the India Medal with two clasps. would be more clear
  • Done.
  • Macandrew continued in India I know this is technically correct, but it made me think a word was missing. "Continued serving" might be better.
  • Done.
  • Serving in Kitchener's Horse, from February he operated in the Orange Free State. This sentence seems like it'd be clearer if the clauses were reversed; Beginning in February, he operated in the Orange Free State with Kitchener's Horse.
  • Done.

Comments by Wehwalt

  • "the Inverness College". The link here is something of an easter egg, since I don't see the words "Inverness College" in the article linked.
  • I have added a sentence in the article to make the connection.
  • "On 22 November 1889 he was admitted to the Bengal Staff Corps, having completed his probationary period, as a lieutenant and continued with the 5th Bengal Cavalry.[1][4]" I would move "as a lieutenant" to after "Corps", otherwise it seems a bit ambiguous (given he was already a lieutenant).
  • Done.
  • "Macandrew served as brigade transport officer to Brigadier-General Alfred Gaselee's 2nd Brigade" Can we cut the first "brigade"
  • Done.
  • "when he travelled to South Africa to fight in the Boer War." This implies a choice on his part, that he chose to do this rather than being sent. Is this right?
  • The sources don't stipulate one way or the other, it is likely this was an order rather than voluntary. I've changed the wording to make it a bit less wishy washy.
  • I notice time is expressed in this article are given as a.m. and p.m. Given this is a military article, should that be on the 24 hour clock?
  • Liable to confuse some readers I think; the sources also use this format.
  • "surrounding of Damascus " Is "surrounding" the proper term, or something like encirclement?
  • Changed to encirclement, which is what the source actually uses.
That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Wehwalt: Hi, thank you for the review! I've responded above. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 22:10, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Wehwalt (talk) 22:44, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]



Hi Pickersgill-Cunliffe, my comments: I was one of the reviewers at A Class and found the article to be very well written. The only issue I have is the presence of a Dates of rank section. The images of the badges of the ranks can cause issues, since the British Army has presumably not released copyright over these. The other problem is that we already mention his promotions in chronological order in the Career section, so adding a Dates of rank section is just a summarization. You already know this, and you included such a section on a trial basis, so you should see what the other reviewers have to say on this. Ian Rose and Zawed can best help out on this, you can tag them and check out what they have to say. The article overall is in a very good condition, and I can support for promotion to FA class after we have comments from other reviewers on the aforementioned issue. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 03:30, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Matarisvan: Hi, I've removed the offending section; if any other reviewers have opinions on it then I'd be interested to hear them, but this isn't a hill I'm even vaguely interested in dying on! Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 22:13, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, you need to add a link for the Belfast Newsletter reference. Would this link work fine: [8]? I think it will. I took it from the discussion with Dumelow you had linked on the A Class review. Matarisvan (talk) 05:40, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My explanation from the ACR is still true. The link would need to be provided by someone with a BNA subscription, which I do not have and has lapsed for the editor who added it. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 09:53, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Could you check out the text of the URL? I don't think the link for the article given by a BNA subscriber would be any different from the one posted here. You could ask someone with a BNA subscription to open this link and check out if it loads correctly. Otherwise the URL text reveals as much. Matarisvan (talk) 17:33, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're probably right. Added link. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 17:36, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to support for promotion to FA class. Congratulations on the great article, once it gets promoted it will be the 3rd FA from the Indian milhist category after a long time. Matarisvan (talk) 19:37, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator(s): Tim riley talk 12:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about an English bishop who was not averse to ecclesiastical fisticuffs. I'm not sure how comfortable he would have been to know personally, but I have much enjoyed reading about him and writing him up here. I have a particular soft spot for the article as ten years ago it was informally reviewed by the late and still painfully missed Brian Boulton and shortly after that was reviewed for GAN by one of our leading lights on church history, Ealdgyth. I've added to it since then, and I look forward to comments from anyone kind enough to look in. Tim riley talk 12:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


  • What a pleasingly alliterative name!
  • As you don't begin the article with his full name, both Herbert and Hensley are technically unreferenced!!
  • "Henson undertook their functions himself." which Henson are we referring to here?
  • "akin to that of an alien" are we able to say why this was the case?
  • "his researches"?
  • "October 1885" repeated year
  • "after being ordained deacon" my religious knowledge is very poor, but I was under the impression that one would be ordained a deacon of a particular church/diocese. Is this the case here?
  • No. An ordinary C of E deacon is a deacon anywhere in the C of E. It's like a lance-vicar, as it were. (I think there are other kinds of deacons, more specialised, but HH wasn't one such.) Tim riley talk 15:05, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • What's Salisbury's original connection to Henson? His patronage seems to come out of nowhere!
  • Salisbury was associated in a lay capacity with St Margaret's, Barking, but I think it would be going into rather too much detail to expand on this, though I'm willing to negotiate. Tim riley talk 15:05, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Chadwick writes that it was said of Henson"
  • Paragraph ending "Few of his colleagues agreed with him, even those dismayed by the parliamentary vote." is uncited
  • "Henson retired from Durham"
  • There is no requirement, as far as I can see, in the MoS to use a name at first mention in any para. The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography does, in fact, pretty much do so in its article on Henson, but doesn't do so systematically for other subjects, and personally I like to keep the surnames under control and use pronouns whenever they convey the intended meaning.

That's all I have for now. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 14:16, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some smashing points there – thank you so much, Pickersgill-Cunliffe! Tim riley talk 15:05, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Support from MSincccc


Placeholder for now. MSincccc (talk) 17:50, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Lead
  • While there, and as Dean of Durham (1913–1918), he wrote prolifically and often controversially.
  • In 1920 after two years in the largely rural diocese of Hereford,...
  • ...; because of this some members of the Anglo-Catholic wing of the Church of England accused him of heresy and sought unsuccessfully to block his appointment as Bishop of Hereford in 1917. Dropped the comma before "and".
  • He campaigned against prohibition, the exploitation of foreign workers by British companies, and fascist and Nazi aggression. He supported reform of the divorce laws, the controversial 1928 revision of the Book of Common Prayer, and ecumenism. Can these two sentences be strategically combined for a more concise sentence?
    • In my view it would be cumbersome to attempt to cram three things HH campaigned against and three things he campaigned for into a single sentence. Would you care to suggest a form of words? Tim riley talk 08:08, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Tim riley You can use this- Henson campaigned against prohibition, the exploitation of foreign workers by British companies, and fascist and Nazi aggression, while supporting divorce law reform, the 1928 revision of the Book of Common Prayer, and ecumenism. MSincccc (talk) 10:30, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        • But that would not be true. He did the six different things at different times, not simultaneously as your wording says. I don't in any case think replacing two sentences of 17 and 19 words with a single long one of 33 words does the reader any favours. Tim riley talk 10:45, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • MSincccc (talk) 17:59, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Life and career
    • His father was a zealous evangelical Christian who had renounced the Church of England and joined the Plymouth Brethren, whereas his mother shielded her children from the worst excesses of what biographer Matthew Grimley describes as Thomas's 'bigotry.' However, in 1870, she died, and, in Henson's words, 'with her died our happiness.' Provides for a smoother flow given that we know who his father and mother were from the previous lines.
    • ...allowed him either to be baptised or to attend school. Dropped the "a" before "school".
@Tim riley Last years
  • Henson died on 27 September 1947 at Hintlesham at the age of eighty-three. His body was cremated upon his wish; his ashes were interred in Durham Cathedral.
  • Could the sub-section heading be changed to Final years?
@Tim riley That's fine. Even I prefer Last years in this case. What about the suggestion above it? That one seems fine as it provides a smoother flow (mentioning the date before the place). MSincccc (talk) 09:28, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Tim riley Most articles in British English, including FACs like that of Liz Truss, Elizabeth II and others, mention the birth date prior to the place of birth under their respective early life sections. Looking forward to your response.
  • There is no prescribed order. Sometimes place is first, sometimes date. Sometimes the date is only in the lead of an FA, sometimes it is in the text. Tim riley talk 11:08, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Tim riley I would not force you to make an edit then. It's fine as it is. Should I make a similar edit to the other articles as well?
    • I would return with other suggestions later. To be honest, the article has been well written. Do you think, @Tim riley, that my comments have been constructive? Looking forward to your response. Regards.
  • I think your suggestions have been well meant, even though I have adopted few of them. If you are seeking to learn about reviewing I recommend studying the contributions of Wehwalt, UndercoverClassicist and other editors here, whose suggestions I have been able, and very pleased, to adopt much more widely: they help clarify, avoid ambiguity, correct inaccuracies, and challenge my interpretation of the sources, rather than putting forward tweaks to prose on the grounds that "I wouldn't phrase it like that". Tim riley talk 15:28, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It was a great time reading the article, @Tim riley. I have nothing more to add here and eagerly anticipate our future collaborations. Support. MSincccc (talk) 17:22, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will let you know of my verdict after I have gone throught the article again. Looking forward to your response. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 07:03, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thomas Henson was against the idea, partly because his financial means had declined, but was talked round by his wife and gave his consent. Do we need to mention his full name here; will either "Thomas" or "Henson" not do?
  • We discourage the use of forenames alone as too chummy and using the surname alone here would be ambiguous.

Comments by Wehwalt

  • The date of birth is unsourced. Suggest mentioning it in first line of the body of the article.
  • "an annual stipend of £200" While I'm dubious about inflation templates, it might be worth some consideration.
  • Can anything be said of his duties as a Fellow of All Souls? I take it the six-months absence was with their blessing (so to speak) since they appointed him a vicar.
  • "In doing so he addressed many nonconformist gatherings; the historian Owen Chadwick suggests that this may have commended him to David Lloyd George, who became prime minister in 1916." Perhaps a few words as to way this is so.
  • "Lloyd George told him that he would have preferred to offer him a see with "a large and industrial population", and hoped to transfer him to one such if he succeeded at Hereford.[59]" Consider cutting "such".
  • "coal in the years after the war" War? What war? You haven't mentioned a war. (and is there anything worth saying about his wartime activities?)
  • " the Head Master of Eton" Headmaster or headmaster or head master or Head Master?
  • "And to which of those epithets does your Grace take exception?" Should "Your" be capped?
  • During the time of the debates in parliament in the late 1920s, was Henson in the House of Lords as a bishop?
  • The Bishop of Durham was and is one of the three bishops who automatically have a seat in the Lords. (The other two are London and Winchester; the rest have to wait their turn till they get in in order of seniority of their consecration, there being 21 other Lords Spiritual seats but 42 dioceses.) I don't know that Hensley's contributions in the Lords need mention, though. Tim riley talk 16:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from UC


Saving a space. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:43, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • In the same year he was elected as a fellow of All Souls College, Oxford and: needs a comma after Oxford per MOS:GEOCOMMA (there are one or two other examples).
  • He was tolerant of a wide range of theological views; because of this some members of the Anglo-Catholic wing of the Church of England accused him of heresy: is this the bit about the right of clergy to express doubts about key points of doctrine? I don't think it's explicitly spelled out in the body that his critics called him a heretic (as opposed to just disagreeing with him, calling him a wimp/wrong 'un or something distinct but equally bad).

More to follow. UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:30, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • MOS:NEE: the word should be linked on first use -- there's a template for this purpose.
  • what the biographer Matthew Grimley describes as Thomas's "bigotry": can we be at all specific about what/whom he was bigoted against? Anglicans? Is there anything in the Plymouth Brethren's doctrine that would point anywhere?
  • I must tread carefully here. Peart-Binns gives no specific examples of Thomas's bigotry but writes, Their beliefs and structure were a world-denying pietism with the Bible as their supreme rule; an interest in prophecy and the Second Coming; believer's baptism; weekly breaking of bread; no set liturgy; no ordained ministry though many full-time evangelists; a congregational polity with no co-ordinating organization. ... Thomas Henson's bleak outlook on the world ... increased a feeling of urgency to be prepared for the Second Coming. Is it any wonder that the darkness at home become all-pervading? In view of their father’s contempt for the wickedness of the world, life at home for the children was purgatory. They were not to be tarnished by attending the schools where corruption was rife. The undercurrents in Herbert’s early life were never completely expunged. Tim riley talk 11:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Could do something with "contempt for the wickedness of the world" and the sense that he considered mainstream schools to be rife with corruption? UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:41, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • his father's fundamentalist views were anathema, ... "an enduring hatred of protestant fanaticism: similarly, I think it would help here to identify, at least in broad strokes, what the PB believed that was so upsetting -- we have the word "zealous" further up, but plenty of very committed, zealous believers are unquestionably lovely people.
  • Emma Parker, widow of a Lutheran pastor, filled the role of stepmother with sympathy and kindness, mitigating the father's grimness: the tone is slipping slightly here, I worry -- a little subjective, a little emotional, a little Dickensian, perhaps. On a more concrete note, isn't "widow of a Lutheran pastor" a false title?
  • It isn't a false title when used predicatively as here or (random example from the ODNB) "His work as broadcaster mirrored much of his work as author and editor." As to the wording I'm blest if I can remember which source prompted it and I've redrawn based on Chadwick and the ODNB. Tim riley talk 11:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Henson was fourteen before his father allowed him either to be baptised or to attend a school: this might be clearer as "His father did not allow Henson to be baptised or to attend a school until..." -- in theory, he could have turned fourteen before being baptised, and then turned fifteen, and then turned sixteen...
  • the young Henson undertook their functions himself: how did that work? Isn't the point of the godparents to guide and advise the baptised person -- how could he advise himself?
  • This puzzled me and still does. It looks to me as though the rector was bending the rules to breaking point. The BCP has an order of service for the baptism of – lovely phrase – "such as are of Riper Years and able to answer for themselves", and though the baptisee renounces the devil and all his works on his/her own behalf, the BCP says The person to be baptized shall choose three, or at least two, to be his sponsors, who shall be ready to present him at the Font and afterwards put him in mind of his Christian profession and duties. How it was that this requirement was waived in HH's case I cannot discover. Tim riley talk 11:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • At Broadstairs Collegiate School he derived little educational benefit: not totally sure about the at here (you derive a benefit from something, but just swapping the words leads to a stilted tone). I'd push back against the idea that being widely read means that there's no value in going to school -- school do more than just put a lot of books in front of children! More seriously, I can't actually find this in the ODNB article.
  • We can agree to differ about the preposition, which seems fine to me. I've added a citation for the limited educational benefit. Chadwick says: Of this school the boy thought little. But no school is well adapted for boys who have read adult libraries by the time they are fourteen, can recite from memory long chunks of famous sermons from past centuries out of Blair’s Lectures on Rhetoric, and think games a sinful waste of time. The other boys were amused to find that the odd creature knew, in some subjects, more than their headmaster. Henson was shocked to find such adult ignorance and held his headmaster in contempt. Tim riley talk 11:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can find no use of "benefit at" in Google Books which means what we want it to (only phrases like "this would benefit at-risk children"). Not a perfect measure, but could you perhaps reassure me by finding it in print somewhere? As I read Chadwick's quotation there, it says clearly that Henson thought he derived no benefit from it, but stops short of endorsing that opinion -- after all, it's predicated on the assumption that games [that is, sports] are "a sinful waste of time", which most educationalists at the time would have quite strongly challenged, and I'd take the "in some subjects" as decidedly double-edged: in other words, C. seems to be saying that Henson had a very narrow range of interests, knew a great deal about them, and was too single-minded, young or naïve to appreciate that there might be value in learning or doing anything else. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:40, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You surprise me. He was at the school and derived no benefit from it. Whether he ought to have benefited from games (a num question if ever I heard one) etc is neither here nor there: the fact is that he didn't. Tim riley talk 20:03, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not arguing otherwise, but I don't think that's a defensible reading of what Chadwick says in the quoted passage. Is tehre another source that puts it differently? UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:56, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Peart-Binns: When he was fourteen his stepmother ... successfully persuaded her husband that Henson should attend Broadstairs Collegiate School. He went there on 18 November 1877 but there were few benefits. Apart from learning Latin and Greek, any formal education was too late. ... He found the school detestable ... Almost to the end of his life he could not bear to mention this school. Henson called the place "a privately run establishment of no great merit" and said that all he learned there was "a smattering of Latin and Greek". He wrote, I have often reflected on the difference which would have been made in my life if I had been so fortunate as to grow up in the neighbourhood of a good school. Had I been within reach of such a school as exists in Westminster, Birmingham, or Manchester it is probable that I should have gained an honourable entrance into the University, and enjoyed the inestimable advantage of what is described as "a regular education". Tim riley talk 07:12, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If it were me, I'd say it was wisest to write something like "Henson saw little benefit in the education he received there", or similar -- the sources are very clear that he thought it was all pointless, and in many ways I think it says something about his character to frame this very much as his view of things. Whether, for example, learning Latin and Greek, or indeed mixing with people from outside his family and community, were of any benefit to him is something of an abstract question -- however, it's absolutely a matter of fact that he thought they were not. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:04, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lightly redrawn. Tim riley talk 09:59, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wonder if there's room to get Grimley's comment that "Henson's Kentish childhood ... could have come straight out of the pages of Charles Dickens" in somewhere?
  • I think we do need some mention of Parker's role in Henson's early education -- we've presented her as providing kindness, but Grimley is clear that she was also responsible for introducing him to literature and, in his words, "ensuring that [Henson] received an education".
  • Well, I think the existing words in the text, "ensured that the children were properly educated" covers this. The sources differ on whether she "persuaded" Henson senior to let HH go to school or whether she "insisted". Tim riley talk 11:18, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I more mean what came before: how Parker gave him copies of classical texts and modern literature -- she seems to have been a major part of his education before he actually got a formal one, and therefore, one assumes, a large part of the reason he was in any position to take advantage of going to school. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:02, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK. I'll add a sentence. Tim riley talk 15:50, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More to follow. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:10, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • We're inconsistent about whether "fellow" [of All Souls]" should be capitalised. Generally speaking, my reading of MOS:CAPS is that the answer is usually "no" when there's any doubt.
  • the university's post-graduate research college: describing what All Souls is is a challenge, but I'm not sure 'postgraduate college' quite gets the point across -- the key thing is that it has no students, only fellows (normally, a "postgraduate college" is one inhabited by MPhil, DPhil etc candidates). I'm not sure it really needs a detailed introduction here, but some alternative phrasing would be useful.
I'll think on it. It's a tricky one, and I must admit I don't totally understand the position of Examination Fellows, who have to (initially) follow a university course but practically have that as their secondary 'job', as far as All Souls is concerned -- and I'm not sure they lose their initial college affiliation (so, for example, a DPhil student in Archaeology at Exeter College also holds an Examination Fellowship at All Souls). On another note, it's not (any longer) the only college without undergraduates; I'm not sure whether that was true when Henson was there, though. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:36, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Henson made substantial contributions to his family as his father's financial affairs deteriorated to the point of bankruptcy: does "as" here mean "because" or "contemporaneously with"?
  • I formed friendships which have enriched my life.: anyone important later on who could be name-checked here?
  • Nobody is named in Henson's memoirs. His contemporaries included Lang, but whether he counted as a friend we are not told. Henson wrote, rather movingly I think, "I loved everybody from the Warden to the Scout's boy, and even now, after more than half a century, I never enter the college without emotion". Tim riley talk 17:29, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Henson's first paper, on William II of England, marked him out as not only a fine scholar but a gripping speaker when he delivered it to an audience: perhaps getting a bit subjective: we would be on safer ground talking about how it was received, or how somebody or other has assessed it.
  • Lyttelton–Hart-Davis: the usual form would be "Lyttelton and Hart-Davis", but given that this is presumably a letter by one or the other, can we find out which?
  • It was GWL to RH-D (letter of 26 February 1958), but I am reluctant to follow the full bibliographical form, as RH-D edited the letters (after GWL's death) as well, of course, as writing half of them, and the conventional bibliographical details would, in my view, be cumbersome. If you haven't read their letters, permit me to recommend them. Desert Island reading for me. (Now I look again, I see that GWL quotes Henson in his very first letter, dated 27 October 1955, though I'm blest if I know what HH meant by "that state of resentful coma which scholars attempt to dignify by calling research".)Tim riley talk 17:29, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • How about something like "Letter from GWL to RH-D, in RH-D ed. (Year)"? I can see the arguments either way, but I think it's important to clarify who is, at least theoretically, "speaking" here, even if that's not as clear a distinction as it could be. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:28, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • to God and the Church: worth adding "Anglican", given that we've just said he was a little wobbly as to which religious camp he truly belonged in?
  • Charles Gore and the Puseyites: suggest adding a brief indication of what these people believed in, for those of us not fully versed in the different flavours of Anglicanism.
  • Tricky. They were high church early Anglo Catholics, of the type known in my youth as "tat queens" - lots of vestments, bobbing and bowing, and theatrical carrying on. But we already say "high church" and "Anglo Catholic" and I think on the whole it is best to let those phrases and blue links bear the weight. Tim riley talk 17:29, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can get behind that. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:13, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • proposed by politicians such as Joseph Chamberlain and Charles Dilke.: would it be accurate to add Liberal (large or small L) here?
Sounds reasonable. So it was just them, rather than any substantial wing of the party? UndercoverClassicist T·C 07:47, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say so, yes. Tim riley talk 16:30, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • St Margaret's, Barking, in east London, a large, working class parish, with a population of 12,000, and increasing: lots of commas here. Worth splitting the sentence or bringing in some bigger pauses to give it more shape?
  • An All Souls colleague Cosmo Lang, himself on the brink of a Church career: I know we have different ideas about commas, but I think this really needs one after colleague -- alternatively, stick the name first and put a comma after it?

More to follow. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:33, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good. Thanks so far and looking forward to more. Tim riley talk 17:29, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • his relentless work at Barking put a strain on his physique: Is physique the right word here? Cambridge have it as "the shape and size of a human body" (e.g. "he had a very slight physique, so found the work difficult") -- I'm not sure it's a direct synonym for the body itself. "On his body" or simply "on him"?
Works nicely. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:35, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 1895 he accepted an offer from Lord Salisbury of a less arduous post, the chaplaincy of St Mary's Hospital, Ilford,: was Salisbury PM at the time (he became so in June)? In either case, do we know what he was doing handing out minor clerical appointments? The "Westminster" section says that it was a personal gift, but that only makes me more confused as to why it was Salisbury's to give.
  • Salisbury had – wait for it – an advowson – the right to appoint a clergyman to a particular living. This was in his private capacity. He was associated in a lay capacity with the Barking parish and knew of HH's work. You're the second reviewer to query this point and I've added an explanatory footnote. Tim riley talk 12:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wonderful in so many ways. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Arthur Winnington-Ingram, Bishop of London and Lang, now Bishop of Stepney.: Bishop of London is parenthetical, so needs a comma on either side (it took me a minute to realise that he wasn't the bishop of a place called "London and Lang".
  • From his pulpit, Henson spoke against the view that ecumenism was, in W. E. Gladstone's words, "a moral monster",: is this in 1902? Gladstone had been dead for four years by that point -- I'd suggest contextualising a) who Gladstone was, briefly; b) when he said this, and c) why Henson still cared what he thought.
The Times, reporting HH's lecture, thought Gladstone's phrase worth repeating. Gladstone coined the phrase back in 1874, but it clearly still resonated with some in 1906. Tim riley talk 12:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can see this one either way -- there would be value in contextualising that, but there's also value in sticking to the point. Will defer to you. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:37, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lightly tweaked. Tim riley talk 17:21, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fine. Tim riley talk 12:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • for the "Putumayo atrocities": why the quote marks -- "for what he called..."? At the moment, they read as scare quotes, implying that this label was overblown.
  • St Margaret's Henson neither received institution from the Bishop of London: what does received institution mean?
  • Most vicars/rectors are formally installed in a new parish by the local bishop. The OED says this: Ecclesiastical. In Episcopal churches, the establishment of a clergyman in the office of the cure of souls, by the bishop or his commissary. In the Church of England, the investment of the presentee to a living with the spiritual part of his benefice, which is followed by induction n., admitting to the possession of the temporalities of the benefice. It's rather an impressive service, but neither "institution" nor "induction" has a relevant WP article for me to link to. Tim riley talk 12:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would this be clearer as something like "Henson did not undergo the ceremony of institution, by which the Bishop of London would have formally installed him in his parish" -- I'm not quite clear (if it matters) whether this was a Henson thing or a St Margaret's thing. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:38, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea. The point is that the Bishop had no locus there. Henson had no boss to call him to heel. But I like your phrasing. Tim riley talk 16:30, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now tweaked. Tim riley talk 16:47, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suggest linking Defender of the Faith. It's a good quote. I would also link destroyer in the quote that follows, as non-native or non-maritime readers may not immediately pick up that he means a warship (rather than just something destructive).
  • The Bishop, Handley Moule, hoped the prime minister would appoint Henry Watkins: we've inconsistently applied MOS:CAPS here, and somewhat throughout. The rule on paper is that if the title stands in for someone's name (so "I met the Pope last Thursday" -> "I met Francis last Thursday"), it's capitalised, so most cases like "the Prime Minister did such-and-such" should be. Of course, consistency is king, so I'd have no objection to decapitalising all of them, but we can't have both Bishop and prime minister here.
  • two colonial bishops: might give them as the bishops of Mombasa and Uganda, both to be more specific (the British Empire was a big place) and to clarify the quote later: at the moment, we have to infer that he's talking about the same people.
  • In the academic sense, symposium should link to Academic conference, but it's only really the right word if there was a physical conference as well -- was there? If so, you would normally say that he presented the paper at the symposium.
  • Well if you read Plato, a symposium is where you get legless and end up with a hangover, while engaging in activity that would get you in trouble under the Sexual Offences Act, 2003. Tim riley talk 12:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, yes, but unless the CofE is more interesting than I gave it credit for, we should make the link to the article about the academic rather than the Hellenic meaning of the term. After all, Symposium begins with a hatnote This article is about the social custom in ancient Greece. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:18, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't know what the C of E is like now, but you might be surprised at the goings-on when I was young, but be that as it may, my and your types of symposium, above, are respectively the first and second definitions in the OED, but the third is "A book consisting of essays on various aspects of a subject contributed by a number of different authors". Symposium is rather a chameleon term, like "classical music" which is broadly taken to mean the stuff they play at the Proms, but which specialist musical scholars confine to music of the late 18th and very early 19th century – basically Haydn, Mozart, early Beethoven and Schubert. If we restrict "symposium" to the OED's second definition it would be as if Bach, Verdi and Tchaikovsky didn't write classical music. Tim riley talk 16:30, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You are quite right (and I was quite wrong): symposium can mean the book as well as the event, so our framing is fine if there was no physical conference. As for the link, though -- Symposium (disambiguation) says that readers looking for the ancient Greek event should go to symposium, while those looking for something in academia should go to academic conference or academic journal. I'd suggest changing the link to the last of those, but in any case it needs not to point to symposium. UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Church in Wales, and give a date for when it was disestablished (in law 1914, in practice 1920)?
  • in general lay people supported his appointment: maybe I'm being incorrigibly modern, but how many lay people actually knew or cared? It would be a bit like saying "in general, most people support the Under-Secretary of State for Pigeons": if she's got an approval rating of 75% among the four people who have heard of her, that's a little misleading.
  • During his brief time at Hereford: brief drip-feeds the idea, only really brought home in the last paragraph, that he didn't last long there -- I think we should either let the cat out of the bag the first time, and say that he remained there only until 1920, or else keep mum until we get to his transfer.
True, but under MOS:LEAD, that's generally considered a slightly separate thing to the body -- after all, we always start the body with the subject's full name, even though that was in both the lead and the infobox. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:13, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right ho. Done. Tim riley talk 16:47, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was Henson's Freemasonry ever controversial? It would seem a gift for opponents who wanted to paint him as unorthodox and/or heretical.
  • As far as I can make out, being a prominent Freemason was uncontroversial in the C of E of those days (though it ain't now!) Henson's contemporaries in the dioceses of London (and later Canterbury), Norwich and Lincoln – Geoffrey Fisher, Percy Herbert and Nugent Hicks – were among the bishops who were Freemasons. Tim riley talk 12:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • James Welldon ... [was] given to making public statements that Henson found infuriating: we imply almost that Henson just disliked his speaking style, and give prohibition as an example of their disagreement, but was there anything more substantial to this conflict?
  • Well, Welldon was given to making public statements that went against the pronouncements of his diocesan superior, as illustrated by the example of his criticising HH's liberal view of alcohol. (What Welldon imagined Jesus was doing at Cana in John 2:11 I have no idea.) Peart-Binns says of Welldon, "And he was found, in the experience of colleagues, to be radically untrustworthy, not deliberately or consciously, but because he could never resist the appeal of the Gallery. He would never fail to sacrifice a friend to a cheer!" Tim riley talk 16:47, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah: I think it would then be useful to amend or add to "found infuriating": as currently expressed, I realised that Henson found his speeches annoying, but it wasn't clear that he was actually saying anything objectionable or insubordinate (as opposed to being an annoying speaker, self-promotional, or generally not to Henson's tastes). Your explanation here that the prohibition pronouncement is an illustrative example of Welldon contradicting his boss clarifies things tremendously, but I didn't pick that up from the article itself. UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:39, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relations between the deanery and Auckland Castle, the bishop's official residence: a common metaphor, especially in journalism, but I think the gloss pulls it the wrong way -- it sounds as if we mean relationships between two buildings rather than the people who worked in them. One way to get around this would be to introduce Auckland Castle a little earlier, or to say something like "Henson's staff at..."?
It's not quite the construction that's the issue, it's the zeugma: we have to simultaneously understand "Auckland Castle" as metonymy and not-metonymy: for it to work with the first clause, it has to carry one meaning, but the second clause can't be understood with that meaning. Most style guides advise avoiding zeugma, unless a) trying to show off and b) creating some conscious effect, and I'm not sure either is really the case here. As for Shakespeare, I shall bring that up next time I write an article in iambic pentameter! With all that said, you're right that there's no real chance of misunderstanding or concrete grammatical error here, so this does ultimately come down to de gustibus. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:12, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can do iambic pentameter. I shall be more impressed if you do an article in terza rima. Tim riley talk 16:30, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would name Eton College in full on first mention; we normally do for schools, universities and so on, and Eton is also a town.
  • It might be worth moving the explanation that "in gaiters" meant "bishops" to the main text -- but is that quite right? Admittedly, I'm remembering this from notes on The Dead, but there gaiters are shorthand for being well-heeled and a bit fancy-pants -- not necessarily being a clergyman. Put another way, all of his bishop guests would be, metaphorically, in gaiters, but not all of his gaitered guests would be bishops.
  • Henson denounced the Jarrow March in 1936: reads more naturally as of 1936 to me, given that we've already used a temporal phrase for the denouncing at the start of the sentence.
  • the suffragan Bishop of Jarrow, James Gordon: can we do anything about the WP:SEAOFBLUE -- three in a row?
Swapping the name and title helps you a bit: "James Gordon, the suffragan Bishop of Jarrow", but I think that's probably the best we can do. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:31, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Quite so. Done. Tim riley talk 16:47, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • To Henson, the Church's principal concern was each individual man or woman's spiritual welfare: in this day and age, would advise each individual's... -- Henson probably didn't intentionally mean to throw children or non-binary people to the dogs, or indeed know what non-binary people were. As it's not a quotation, we should use modern, inclusive language unless we have good reason to think he consciously meant to do otherwise.
  • "the publication of this Book does not directly or indirectly imply that it can be regarded as authorized for use in churches: just checking that the Oxford English -ize is original?
  • Oh, yes! In those days, the OUP, CUP, The Times and Fowler held fast to the idiotic superstition that ize should always be used where the verb has been formed by using the suffix equivalent to the Greek suffix -izein (which retained its z when Latinised), but that ise should be used for words formed in a different way. Who knows, one day the OUP may catch up with the mid-20th century. Tim riley talk 12:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • damage limitation measures: a bit of a cliché, but a compound modifier in any case, so hyphenate it if it's staying. Likewise Prayer-Book debacle.
  • Dwelly's biographer Peter Kennerley considers it ironical that Henson,: not ironic? I understand ironical to mean "intentionally suffused with irony": so "he gave an ironical smile at the ironic situation".
  • Suggest outlining that Dean Dwelly was Dean of Liverpool, not just some bloke giving out invitations to cathedrals?
  • "there can be no compromise or patched up peace": as it doesn't affect the pronunciation, MOS:CONFORM would advocate for a hyphen in patched-up.
  • After becoming ... After overcoming: can we vary the structure here?
  • He occupied a considerable part of his retirement writing a substantial work of autobiography: I'm not sure the two adjectives really work for prose: advise cutting substantial, as the next clause does a perfectly good job of setting out just how substantial it was. There's also a potentially awkward double-meaning here: does substantial mean "really long" (fine) or "full of wisdom" (not so fine for WP:V)?
  • the posthumous publication of Henson's edited letters were a better legacy: as written, needs to be was, but we might rearrange to make the letters, rather than the publication, the subject.
  • Henson's isolation from contemporary fashions had not diminished his influence: "Its secret lay in things far deeper than contemporary fashions: perhaps look at the repetition?
  • I find it odd in the "Reputation" section that such a controversial figure appears to have nobody willing to say a bad word about him after his death. Is that the case?
  • It seems so. Even the people he battled with such as Gore liked him personally. I daresay that if Welldon had outlived HH he might have struggled to say something complimentary, and some Durham miners probably retained a lasting grudge, but on the whole HH was liked as well as respected. Tim riley talk 12:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lloyd George was an agnostic, but was from a nonconformist family, like the majority of Welsh people: needs a slight rephrase (suggest shifting the agnostic bit to the end, and probably dropping the article) -- most Welsh people were not agnostic.
  • Grimley writes that the friendship between Henson and Booker was the basis of a 1987 novel by Susan Howatch, Glittering Images, in which Henson is portrayed as Alex Jardine. In the novel Jardine's friendship with the companion is more than platonic, but Grimley emphasises; suggest cutting as indicated: the part that's opinion is already attributed to Grimley, and we can be more concise in what is a long foonote.
    Done. Tim riley talk 12:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lovely work -- as ever, impressively stylish, learned and readable. I hope the above is useful. UndercoverClassicist T·C 07:43, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you – also as ever – for superb contributions. Tim riley talk 12:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And thank you for your support. Greatly valued. Tim riley talk 13:23, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Fowler&fowler


Glad to see this. I'm enjoying reading HHH. As I explained on my user talk page, I've made most of my (off the top of my head) comments at user:Fowler&fowler/HHH FAC. Eventually, I'll write a short paragraph here. I expect to support it. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Glad you're enjoying the article. I've responded to your comments on your tlak page, and look forward to more. Tim riley talk 11:55, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 14:34, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about... one of the most important figures in the history of the Royal Mint. If you're looking for the Charles Fremantle for whom Fremantle, Australia is named, you've come to the wrong place, that was his uncle. But this Charles Fremantle did quite a lot, enough to distinguish himself in a family where there are an amazing number of notable people. Enjoy.Wehwalt (talk) 14:34, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]



Reviewing, I live in Perth (capital of WA, near Fremantle) actually! Comments incoming. 750h+ 03:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


  • My hopes were raised and dashed for Charles Fremantle!
  • We generally include the "Sir" in bold text in the lede, and don't include The Hon at all (in infobox, but not lede)
  • Royal Mint isn't linked anywhere! Suggest adding in lede and main text at first mention
  • You've a mixture of including "Sir" in name links and not including, suggest standardising by always including it
  • "Hon Sir Henry Brand" per above cmt about "Hon"
  • "appointed deputy master of the Mint" This is the first mention of the Mint, so using the full name and linking it here would be appropriate
  • "from without its walls" interesting phrase! "outside" would be simpler
  • "G.P. Dyer and P.P. Gaspar" note who these people are - historians?
  • Would Sir John Craig deserve a red link?
  • "submitted 6 November 1869" unnecessary repeated year
  • Provide a conversion for the £1,500 salary, and later figures?
  • " from May to July 1870" repeated year
  • "required the deputy master to submit an annual report" a report on what? you say it's helpful but don't really explain why or how
  • "were sent out" not wording I've heard before - would not "contracted out" work?

Craig says, "All but the lightest running repairs had been sent out until that date." I've adopted your language.

  • "gentleman of cultivated taste" according to who?
  • "the coins of earlier in the Victorian era" > "earlier coins of the Victorian era"?
Done, slightly differently.
  • Link Numismatic Society of London
  • "He served as a British delegate" beginning a paragraph with "He" rather than the name is awkward
  • Link Civil Service
  • "and was the boss in a position described as "none too arduous""
A large part of the wonderment at his resignation was that he was the boss, with none to contradict him, since the master of the Mint was busy elsewhere.
  • Do we know when he was appointed JP?
No. I looked.
  • A word or two on what the Charity Organisation Society actually does, if Fremantle is one of the movement Fathers, would be useful
Do you have some thoughts on phrasing? Our article on it is not wonderful.
  • Link Sloane Street
  • "Fremantle's retirement ," accidental space
  • Some discrepancies in your referencing style. Ref. #2, #46, #48 (which should also include the page number used), #50, and #51 would do better as short form references with longer entries in the Sources section
Done, except for the two that go to the ODNB online. I don't think those need page numbers.

That's all I have for now. Will take another spin through later in the process. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 13:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I think I've gotten everything except as noted. Thanks for the review.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim riley


I found this a hugely enjoyable article and look forward to supporting its elevation to FA. A few minor cavils and carps first, more meo:

  • "Fremantle began his time as deputy master under Master of the Mint Thomas Graham" – we could do without the false title
  • "and then entered the treasury as a clerk in April 1853" – if we're capitalising "Royal Mint" (rightly, I believe) we ought, I think, to give H. M. Treasury its caps too.
  • "and Hon Sir Henry Brand, later speaker of the House of Commons" – whether you contract "Honourable" to "Hon" or not it needs a definite article.
  • "and that the Royal Mint would benefit from an infusion of new blood" – I suggest a pronoun instead of "the Royal Mint" would help the prose along here.
  • "someplace closer to the City of London" – "somewhere", rather than "someplace" if we're in BrE.
  • "every Continental mint had updated its equipment, even that in Constantinople, making the Royal Mint the least efficient in Europe" – not clear why Constantinople is singled out here.
From the source, "... the Royal Mint's machinery was more obsolete and inefficient than that of any other mint in Europe, Constantinople included." I don't have access to the memorandum by Fremantle which seems to be the original source. Probably the view of the Turk as somewhat decadent and not very competent.
  • "tied up in treasury and parliamentary red tape" – a good phrase, which I like very much, but I suspect some sobersided editors will think it a little colourful for our ever-so-serious encyclopaedia.
It's difficult to find a phrase which so succinctly sums up the matter, so I'll let it stand for now.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "De Saulles would go on to design the coinage of King Edward VII before dying in 1903" – reads a little oddly, as though he might have designed it after dying. Something on the lines of "shortly before dying in 1903", possibly?
  • "interdepartmental committees relating to the Civil Service – should the civil service be capitalised if chancellor of the exchequer is not?
It's how I interpret JOBTITLES but would be happy to be wrong as the lower case rendition of such titles looks very strange to me.
  • "Hasegawa Tameharu, who he had met" – "whom", please.
  • "Fremantle's father, Sir Thomas Fremantle, was ennobled as Baron Cottesloe in 1874, entitling his sons to preface their names with 'The Honourable'" – glad to see this bit: I'd been wondering from the outset where the "Honourable" came from. Would you consider adding "later Baron Cottesloe" in the first para of the main text? Just a thought.
  • "Fremantle wed Sophia Smith – the current edition of Fowler calls the use of "wed" instead of "married" "irretrievably naff" in serious writing, and I concur. Fine for tabloid headlines, of course.

That's my lot. Shall look in at the Texas Centennial half dollar article later. Tim riley talk 13:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the review. All done but for as noted.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]




  • Sir Charles William Fremantle KCB JP FRSA (12 August 1834 – 8 October 1914) was a British government official...
  • Educated at Eton College, Fremantle entered the Treasury in 1853 as a clerk and served as...

Dropped comma after "clerk".

  • Disraeli's appointment of Fremantle as deputy master of the Royal Mint excited some controversy but was supported by his political rival William Gladstone. More concise version.
  • Fremantle began his time as deputy master under Thomas Graham, the master of the Mint, but Graham died in September 1869, and the Treasury decided the mastership should go to the chancellor of the day, with the deputy master the administrative head of the Royal Mint. Could this sentence be shortened or rephrased for greater accuracy and conciseness?
  • He died in October 1914 months after his eightieth birthday. "Soon" should be omitted in any case from this sentence given that August and October are two months apart.
I've split the sentence you've flagged and I think done the other things you've asked.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by Dugan Murphy: pass


I'll do this in a little bit. Dugan Murphy (talk) 21:51, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source list

  • I see that two items in the source list have no listed author and that they are alphabetized between themselves before the alpha-first listing with an author name. I think I always see those integrated alphabetically into the rest of the sources, but I also can't find any policy saying that is necessary. Have you thought about this explicitly?
I went back and looked at the last time I remembered having sources that lacked an author, which was New Jersey's 1927 biannual elections proposal. Although all the sources that lacked an author were published by the state, I had alphabetized them and put them before the sources that had an author. That's what I often do, see what was found to be acceptable before. That way you aren't constantly trying to reinvent the wheel.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:43, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Journal of the Royal Society of Arts: I think it would be appropriate to include the volume (62) and issue (3230) numbers.
  • Charity Organisation Review: I think it would be appropriate to include the volume number (36).
  • Craig: I think it would be helpful to write out the whole title like it is listed here on WorldCat.
  • I see Cambridge is in the UK and Llantrisant is in Wales. I think either Cambridge should be in England or Llantrisant should be in the UK. London is listed without a country. For consistency, I think that should be added, though I wouldn't stand in your way if you want to leave that one be.
I've added "United Kingdom" after Wales. My understanding is that there is no need to disambiguate major cities such as London.
  • Elliot: I think it's appropriate to include the volume number (45). Also, the publication year doesn't match what's in the link.
It says 1916 on the first page near the bottom. I have to assume that it means what it says. As for the volume number, the title says it's the Forty-fifth annual report, so it might be redundant.
Similar as for the 45th. The title says it is the Twenty-fifth and the first page of the book says 1895 as the publication year.
  • The source list is pretty heavily weighted toward publications over a century old, particularly from the time of Fremantle's death. You can't find more contemporary sources?
No, and that's often the case in such biographies. Contemporary biographical sketches, news mentions, and obituaries often provide detail which later sources lack.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:43, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nothing on this list longer than a page is specifically about Fremantle. Have there been no book- or article-length treatments of his life?
No, or I would have obtained and used them.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:45, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see every item in the list of sources includes a ref= parameter. Do the in-line citations not work without them? My impression is that this parameter is for sources with no listed author.
I've probably done it this way with well over 100 articles.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:45, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I have for now. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:01, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've done as you suggest for each or explained why not.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:43, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see that you have! I would consider the above comments resolved. I just have a few more below. Dugan Murphy (talk) 13:04, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In-line citations

I'll do this in a bit. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:01, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • The Wikilink for Bristol Evening Post appears to be a newer paper.
  • Royal Mint Museum: Recommend adding an archive link in case the link dies. Same for Debretts.
I just added url-status=live to the archived citations so the original link is featured first. Dugan Murphy (talk) 17:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Daily Telegraph 2024 should be 1914.
  • Shouldn't Debrett's have an apostrophe?
  • I don't see a publication date on Debretts. Where'd that come from?
Similar text is found here. Since there's no doubt about the reliability of the source, I'd rather cite to the more easily verifiable page. Google Books is not available in all countries, and previews may vary.
According to this Google Books link, this ebook was published April 19, 2016. The citation says it was published June 24, 2021. I still don't see where the 2021 date comes from. Dugan Murphy (talk) 17:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed that. Not sure how that got in.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Laughton/Morriss and Seccombe cite the same publication but are formatted quite differently. I think both should have the publication date and the retrieval date.
  • Liverpool Daily Post: The listed publication date and page number don't match the link.
  • What I said in the above section about the age of the items in the source list I could say about the items listed as in-line citations only, except that these ones tend to lean even more toward primary sources from Fremantle's life. There aren't newer sources for that info?
I did a newspapers.com search since 1950. A few articles mention him in passing in connection with one of his sons, who died in 1952. Every other reference to Charles Fremantle has to do with his uncle.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:38, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not a source check issue

  • "City" is inconsistently capitalized. My feeling is that the only appropriate capitalization is the direct quote.
The capitalizations are to "City of London", which our article on same capitalizes. When used in connection with the Australian place-name, it is lower cased.
I had no idea London was commonly referred to as the City! Never heard that before. Dugan Murphy (talk) 17:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The area known as the City of London is a district of London itself. The financial district, I believe.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:14, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


The items in the sources list are all legit-looking journals or books that WorldCat says are held at reputable libraries. I didn't do much of a spot check, but I'll say that in the few instances where I looked at a source to confirm a claim, it was there. I'm not excited about the number of primary sources, but I don't see any being used inappropriately. Save for a few minor issues raised above, the sources seem to me to be consistently formatted. I can't find any obviously comprehensive, book-length treatises on Fremantle's life, so I would have to take it on faith that these sources represent a comprehensive survey. There certainly are plenty of different sources and none of them are unreliable. Dugan Murphy (talk) 00:05, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for a most thorough review. I would say that if you are going to have a high-quality article on a person who no one has seen fit to write a book about, then there's an extent to which you have to rely on contemporary sources. The heart of the article is about the Royal Mint, and that is reliant on secondary sources, the two histories of the Royal Mint. I've done the other things you suggested or given my view as to why it is not necessary. Thanks again.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:38, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I get the use of primary sources. My basic internet search didn't bring up anything newer or more scholarly to replace them, but I figured I would ask in the spirit of the review. My only unresolved comment is the one about the date on the Debrett's link. Dugan Murphy (talk) 17:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's done now, many thanks.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Of course. This source review is a pass. These were all minor issues. If you have the time and the will, my current FAC nomination could use more eyes. Thank you in advance if you are able to look it over. Dugan Murphy (talk) 22:37, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll be happy to, hopefully this weekend. I'm a bit backed up at the moment and RL is interfering. Wehwalt (talk) 22:53, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


  • You've got three instances of "U.K.": these should be "UK"
  • "Whilst" -> "while" (x2 and elsewhere in the article)
  • "G.P. Dyer and P.P. Gaspar": spaces between the initials?

That's my lot: scant fare in what is an excellent and interesting article. - SchroCat (talk) 18:43, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I've done that.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:19, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator(s): Generalissima (talk (it/she), Wehwalt (talk 19:58, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, the United States commemorative half dollars. By the 1930s, these were getting much less special as every nonprofit in the country seemingly tried to fundraise through one of them. The Texas commemorative half is famed for its absurdly intricate reverse design, which is a great example of the pitfalls of coin design by committee. I initially planned to bring this up to FA by my lonesome, but Wehwalt took an interest to it and added a bunch of contemporary newspaper sources, so now it's a co-nomination! Hope you enjoy the read. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:58, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Some images are missing alt text
I've added for all not having them excluding the infobox where the image is described.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:31, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed a tag from the image page that implies publication, and left the one that this is part of the Bain collection and freely usable.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:31, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]



Throwing in my hat for a prose review. Should get to this in a couple days; personal life has been really wearing me thin recently, so if I somehow don't get to it in that time, feel free to ping me liberally. joeyquism (talk) 23:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Love to see the Texan representation here. Below are some things I've noted, some of which are nits; as always, you are free to refuse any suggestions with justification:


  • "...while the reverse is a complex scene incorporating the winged goddess Victory, the Alamo Mission, portraits of Texan founding fathers Sam Houston and Stephen F. Austin, alongside the six flags over Texas." - I was a bit confused by this sentence (I find that I am unable to properly articulate why it was confusing - I will say that it reads as an incomplete list with no "and" to signify the end of the list). Perhaps wording it so that the six flags over Texas goes first (e.g. "incorporating the six flags of Texas alongside the winged goddess") or adding "and" before "portraits" would be better?
Since the flags are not prominent, I've adopted your suggestion to add and, with a couple of other slight modifications.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:02, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


  • Pretty straightforward, no glaring issues I could spot. The only thing I personally had trouble with was the sentence beginning with "Bertrand H. Snell of New York asked how the coinage dies would be paid for", as I had been thrown off by the use of "dies" as a reference to both the minting term and the last name of the congressman. Just a little unlucky coincidence there; I'm not sure that wikilinking Coining (mint) would be worth it as it seems redundant in the context of this article, though I will suggest it anyways for your consideration.
Instead, I've added "Congressman" before Dies' last name. It may still be a little jarring but it's unavoidable.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:02, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


  • "Coppini had previously designed various public monuments in Texas, prominently including..." - I am not sure of the inclusion of the word "prominently" here; it feels out of place to me. This is not a pressing issue, however, and will not significantly influence my vote.
Cut.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:02, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Charles Moore, the chair of the commission, had become critical of the commemorative half-dollar series, and took an especially dim view of Coppini's initial models, describing them as a conglomeration of 'the whole history of Texas and all its leading personages in a perfect hodgepodge.'" - The quote does not appear to be that critical to me; is there perhaps a more scathing quote that would better convey Moore's disdain for the models? I understand that "hodgepodge" here would be used for its more literal definition ("a confused mixture of different things" according to Cambridge dictionary), but I think today it is more colloquially used to mean just a heterogenous mixture. Plus, the addition of "perfect" sends a mixed signal; perhaps paraphrasing the quote here and using a quote for Lawrie's criticisms could be beneficial. I recognize that this is a silly critique and that you have no control over what a guy who died 80 years ago says, so if there's no such quote and/or you find it to be silly as well, feel free to ignore this comment.
There is a more scathing quote and I've included it.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:02, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


  • No glaring issues with the design description. I do wonder if the reception section could be rearranged into paragraphs focusing on positive and negative feedback, but this is mostly coming from my experiences with album reception section organization, and I'm not sure if this is appropriate for numismatic articles.
With over forty commemorative coin FAs all following similar formats, I'm inclined to say, leave it as it is.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:02, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Production and distribution

  • "The first coins to be vended were sold on December 15" - Is "to be vended" necessary here? It feels rather redundant.
Sometimes the first coins struck by the Mint were sold at a premium. This is not such a case. These, so far as can be ascertained from the sources, were simply the first ones sold. I think if we deleted that phrase, there might be ambiguity.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makes sense to me. In that case, leave as is. joeyquism (talk) 02:40, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Some of the coins were placed on exhibit at the Austin Chamber of Commerce so the public would know what they looked like" - Could benefit from a more formal wording; something like "for public viewing" would suffice.
I've reworded a bit.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:02, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Civic organizations and other groups joined the Legion in selling the coins" - Who are these other groups? If there are no details on them, that is okay.
    The source says "various business and civic organizations and schools". That's what we got on that. I saw some references to local chambers of commerce in other sources, if that helps.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:29, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for this information. I think it could be worth it to include these details here for the sake of clarification, but ultimately I will leave this up to you. joeyquism (talk) 02:40, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the only group I can find specifically named is the Austin Chamber of Commerce and as far as I can tell, they only displayed the coins, and did not sell them.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:48, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given that information, I would maybe include the businesses and schools and omit the Chamber of Commerce. Regardless, this is still up to you and should not affect my decision going forward. joeyquism (talk) 17:58, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


  • No glaring issues.

A wonderful article. Much of this is already in good shape, so I think that many of my criticisms can likely be ignored. Still, I look forward to reading your responses, and I will likely come back to support after they have been addressed. Great job from you both, and I hope you have a wonderful week ahead. joeyquism (talk) 22:40, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I've done or responded to all.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:02, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looking good, glad to support here. I also have an FAC open here, if you have the time. Of course, you are not obligated to review, though it would be much appreciated. joeyquism (talk) 18:45, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It sounds interesting. I have one promised review I have to do and then will get to yours, likely by the end of the weekend. Wehwalt (talk) 19:03, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from PMC


Putting myself down for a look. Poke me if I don't get to it within a week! ♠PMC(talk) 01:17, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator(s): Darkwarriorblake (talk) 16:45, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about 1997 science fiction film Starship Troopers, one of director Paul Verhoeven's last works in the western studio system and the unofficial third and final installment in his anti-authority trilogy including RoboCop and Total Recall. The film was widely derided on its release as a pro-fascist film despite its intention to satirize fascism, which was blamed both on poor marketing and contemporary cultural leanings. It's reputation has grown over time once the satire became evident and is now considered a cult classic. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 16:45, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments

  • 10,000+ words!! Really?
  • "In December 1991 ... Davison realized it bore many similarities to the 1959 science fiction novel, Starship Troopers, by Robert A. Heinlein. The novel had ... remained an enduringly popular work for over four decades." Do the math. :-) Gog the Mild (talk) 17:00, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's 9700 words, most of my comprehensive articles on older films range around this as comprehensiveness is part of the requirement, but as I say on each review, the Thematic Analysis section is something I have to include, not want to, and I have to provide an acceptable level of coverage for it. That section is 1300 words in this case and, plus the 400 words in the lead, text relating to a big and influential science fiction film adapted from a controversial book, with an arduous production, and which generated controversy itself is actually about 8000, though, per WP:SIZE, I can go up to 15,000 words if the scope of the subject warrants it. I have gone through prior to this and copy edited it and removed some information which I found interesting but I took an objective approach towards so I do believe I've reached a fair equilibrium.
    • I think by 1991 it would've been in 4 separate decades, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, but I've removed it anyway as I don't think the specificty is important. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 17:20, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      I would have just said something like "whose popularity spanned four decades" RoySmith (talk) 23:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify this has been addressed, Gog the Mild, you may be using a different tool to me but the "page size" link said that, before your comment, it was 9700 words. I have gone back through it and reduced it to 9500, and I did spend all of June reducing it from 11500 so I have tackled this to the best of my ability. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 22:14, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator(s): joeyquism (talk) 14:54, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since its inception in the late 1930s, Blue Note Records has been an influential force in jazz music, with major releases from genre figureheads such as John Coltrane, Miles Davis, and Thelonious Monk under its belt in the mid-20th century. Its presence still stands strong today, with Norah Jones and Robert Glasper taking home Grammys for the label in the 2000s and 2010s. Music aside, Blue Note has also attracted attention for their wonderful album covers, some of which have been noted for their unique Bauhaus-esque compositions and labeled by some writers as being the definitive "look" for jazz as a whole. This article chronicles the history of those covers from the early 1950s to the present day, with commentary revolving around their designs (Andy Warhol did a few!) and their respective designers, particularly Reid Miles.

Courtesy pings to Roy Smith and SchroCat, who kindly left remarks on the article's peer review listing, and Tbhotch, who was the reviewer for the good article nomination. joeyquism (talk) 14:54, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


  • Quite an unusual subject around here, but looks interesting (I've just been listening through my old collection of jazz CDs, some Blue Note among them). Will have a look soon. FunkMonk (talk) 15:14, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you for so quickly taking to reviewing this nomination, FunkMonk! I've addressed your comments below, though I may have also been quite quick to reply, so I apologize if I'm causing any merge conflicts here. Looking forward to reading anything else you may have to say in the future! joeyquism (talk) 15:55, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • One concern I had was whether there are sources that cover this as a single subject, or if it was just stitched together from disparate sources about individual covers, but it does seem there is some wider coverage.
    • Yeah, this is something I initially believed to be the case as well; however, I was elated upon my discovery that there have actually been entire book chapters and articles written about this topic, lol
  • I see a few WP:duplinks, which can be highlighted with this script:[9]
    • I've installed the script; however, I'm not sure that it's working right now (for me, at least). If you could point me out to what you've seen so far, that would be much appreciated, though I should note that I intentionally double-linked some things in accordance with "Link a term at most once per major section, at first occurrence."
    • Never mind; I only now realized that it's off to the side. I've since resolved the duplicate links, which I now see were inappropriate.
  • Images of people should preferably be aligned so the subject "faces" towards the text, could another Andy Warhol picture be used, or could it be right aligned?
    • Personally, I dislike when every image/piece of media is aligned in the same way, so I'll get to looking for another Warhol picture I just found the mirrored (potentially original?) image on Commons (Andy Warhol1975.jpg). I've replaced it in the article.
Even better if that's actually the original! FunkMonk (talk) 02:21, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the first footnote you only give lastname of the person mentioned, but in the second you give the full name, could be consistent. Talking strictly about the people mentioned earlier in the article already, Hermansader and Miles.
    • Adjusted so that the full name appears in both footnotes.
  • "covers of first eight 12-inch" The first eight?
    • Ah, yeah. Fixed.
  • " by German-Jewish immigrant Alfred Lion.[1] The label initially comprised Lion and American writer Max Margulis" Are their nationalities really necessary here? You don't give it for most other people mentioned in the article. Doesn't really seem relevant to the story either.
    • I feel like indicating where Lion emigrated from is relevant here as it establishes a bit more context, though I do agree that "American writer" is redundant. I've removed the latter, though I may ease up on removing the German-Jewish designation later.
I won't press the issue, but if the Bauhaus connection had some relation to the German origin, I could see a point in it, not so much when it has no significance to the story. FunkMonk (talk) 01:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that Lion's origin is rather important to the history of Blue Note; many sources emphasize this point as being something unique to Blue Note itself (e.g. Cook p. ix calls the label "little other than two German guys putting out music they loved", Havers p. 22 states that the (fairly obvious) circumstances in Germany during the 1930s "played a significant role in the creation of Blue Note Records", etc.) I think this should be included in the background section, which serves to establish some context for the essence of Blue Note. This might just be a bit of impassioned writing on my part, though I understand your concern here. Nevertheless, I'll keep it in unless others prod me to leave it out. Thank you for your thoughts on this matter. joeyquism (talk) 01:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since the scope of the article is all covers by this label, it seems an oversight that nothing is said about covers from before the late 1940s, if the label produced records already from 1939, which I'm sure must have had some sort of covers? I think something about this is necessary under background at least, how were the pre-late 1940s albums packaged?
    • Unfortunately, I struggled with this issue while writing the article as well. The earliest Blue Note release with an album cover I could find was Sidney Bechet's Jazz Classics Vol 1, which was recorded in 1939 but released in 1951, around when Paul Bacon joined the label. However, while researching in order to address this concern, I've found that prior to September 1950, Blue Note releases were packaged in "plain, mass-produced... paper sleeves" according to page 79 of the Richard Havers book. Not sure of where to include this information as of right now, but if you have any suggestions, feel free to let me know; I'm not exactly looking at this with the freshest of eyes just yet.
Yes, the info you list is exactly what I'm asking for, and could fit well before you introduce Wolff in the Background section. FunkMonk (talk) 01:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, upon a second read of the excerpt, I'm not sure that this information is applicable, as it makes no explicit mention of Blue Note actually using those paper sleeves; I may have paraphrased it incorrectly while in a drowsy stupor. Here's the part of the text I'm concerned with:

The new format brought with it the additional cost of creating individual album sleeves. These were more expensive than the plain, mass-produced, 78-rpm paper sleeves that were a one-size-fits-all solution. (Havers 2022, p. 79)

I've prepared a revised sentence in the History section that would look something like Prior to September 1950, Blue Note had packaged their records in plain paper sleeves; however, the growing popularity of 10-inch (25 cm) LP records in the late 1940s and early 1950s...; if this information were to be included, I think that the Background section would be a strange location, as to my knowledge such sections should be (within reason) some sort of elaborative text on a topic that encompasses the article's subject rather than the subject itself, akin to the background section of a monument or an album. Let me know your thoughts on this, and I will prune further based on those comments. joeyquism (talk) 01:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I definitely think this info could be worked in without "falsely" implying that this is what they necessarily did before. This is my last comment for now, and by coincidence, I'm currently listening to a Jimmy Smith Blue Note album... FunkMonk (talk) 17:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Revised as However, with the growing popularity of 10-inch (25 cm) LP records in the late 1940s and early 1950s came an increased demand for detailed album covers with graphics and information, replacing the plain paper sleeves that were previously common. As a result, Wolff's photos would be featured on more of Blue Note's covers after the label began issuing 10-inch LPs in 1951. joeyquism (talk) 18:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • There was some problems with this which I chimed in on[10], but shouldn't Genius of Modern Music, Vol. 1 be linked at first mention? Pinging Eugenia ioessa as to how this should be done.
  • You don't need to spell out full names after first mention, now you do it at least for Reid Miles and Alfred Lion, could be checked throughout, because now it's inconsistent anyhow.
    • Yeah, it gets a bit hard when it's a barrage of names - I've removed what I saw with regards to duplicated artist first names. I do feel that the style and composition section is a bit weird starting off with "Miles is credited..." rather than "Reid Miles is credited..." because the former makes it sound as if the article is about him (to me, at least). I've removed "Reid" for now, along with other first name duplicates.
  • "and Blue Note founder Alfred Lion" Not sure about presenting him again the second time around, but maybe ok since it's a bit after his first introduction.
    • I feel like this is fair to include.
  • "while the title "Genius Of Modern Music" is written" Not sure, but since this is still the title of the album, shouldn't it still be in italics?
    • I think that since it's more of a reference to the words themselves rather than the work, this should be fine. If that makes sense? Removed this altogether - see below re: "There seems to be some overlap..."
  • "with a then-unknown Andy Warhol" While famous, could still be presented by occupation like most other people you mention.
    • I think "with then-unknown artist Andy Warhol" reads a bit strangely, given that most people in tune with art within the past century would have some idea of who or what Andy Warhol is? However, I also understand that article writers should generally assume that people are reading them to learn everything (at least that's my philosophy to a degree), so I think that this revision can stick, at least for now.
Yeah, you can't be sure that everyone, especially of the younger generation, necessarily know who Warhol was. FunkMonk (talk) 01:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Following Lion's departure, Miles also left" and "After Miles left Blue Note in 1967". I think the date should be given at first mention. As it reads now, the reader first gets the impression that he left the same year as Lion, until reading the following section.
    • I believe that I've covered this with "This frustration, coupled with heart problems, prompted his retirement from the label in 1967. Following Lion's departure, Miles also left...", though if you are referring to a different aspect, please let me know.
This was a mistake on my part, I thought their departures happened different years, but seems they didn't. FunkMonk (talk) 01:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the clarification, and I apologize for any confusion I may have caused here. joeyquism (talk) 01:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "are often supplemented by the photography of Francis Wolff, whose candid black-and-white photographs of musicians at recording sessions appeared on hundreds of Blue Note album covers" This seems to repeat info already stated in earlier sections (except for the photos being black-and-white), could be summarised further or somehow consolidated.
    • Reduced to just "which appeared on hundreds of Blue Note album covers", and added the information about the candid and black-and-white qualities of the photos to the 1951–1956: Early years section.
  • There seems to be some overlap in how you describe styles used between the History and Style sections, which feels kind of repetitive. It seems a bit arbitrary that the styles of some individual covers are described nde rHistory, but others under Style.
    • I'll admit that I didn't like this either, even while writing the article. I've since removed the longer style descriptions of individual covers in the History section.
I'm not sure if all the info should be wholesale removed, but could perhaps be moved to the Style section, if it hasn't already been. FunkMonk (talk) 01:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I've written it, the style section focuses more on articulating the techniques used on the covers rather than in-depth descriptions of the covers themselves; unfortunately, I feel as if honing in on a few covers more than the others seems a bit unfair and awkward? I tried rewriting the sentence beginning They are generally characterized by their use of bold colors like ochre, vermilion, and indigo... as They are generally characterized by their use of bold colors like ochre and vermillion, as seen on the covers of both volumes of Monk's Genius of Modern Music (1956); however, that would warrant the omission of the mention of indigo, which I feel adds a little more to the idea of "bold colors". Regardless, I will certainly take this comment into consideration for future revisions. joeyquism (talk) 01:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • A few things I'm left wondering are how do the covers of other jazz-producing labels of the time compare to those of Blue Note? Were they different, or did they later mimic the Blue Note style, considering it is here described as "definitive of the visual identity of jazz"? Looking at my Columbia album covers, for example, shows little resemblance to the Blue Note style.
    • I didn't really look too much into the covers of other jazz record labels, as the labels themselves were seldom brought up at all in my research of Blue Note. I would have assumed some apt comparisons would be made had there been any notable covers among the other labels, though I didn't seem to find any.
Alright, if any kind of comparison can be found, it would be nice to add. FunkMonk (talk) 01:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll certainly keep an eye out. Hopefully I can find something comprehensive, but if not, I would say "it is what it is" applies here. joeyquism (talk) 01:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In an interview with the Kennedy Center, Blue Note president Don Was noted" You could give date for this and other retrospective statements for context. Especially since you suddenly mention another president of Blue Note.
    • I've added the year of the interview, though I'm not sure what you mean by the rest of this. I apologize.
I basically mean all the retrospective views discussed under Reception and impact, would help their context if you added years to when the statements were published. FunkMonk (talk) 01:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've tried my hand at doing this à la the critical reception section of Three Studies for Figures at the Base of a Crucifixion. I think it looks alright; however, I'd like to know your thoughts on this as well. joeyquism (talk) 01:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Artist Logan Walters reimagined the album covers of Wu-Tang Clan in the Blue Note style." In what context? An art project? Re-issues of those albums?
    • Revised to "A project by artist Logan Walters featured the album covers of Wu-Tang Clan redesigned in the Blue Note style." Do note that I could not find a single date from a reliable source anywhere; this guy's website states that the project was featured in the New York Times, but after some odd hours scouring the web for this alleged NYT recognition, I couldn't find an article even mentioning his name. Odd, but I think it's still worth a mention.
  • Candid photography should also be linked in the article body.
    • Done.
  • "photos by label executive Francis Wolff" You don't mention that occupation in the article body.
    • I've revised this as "pictures by photographer Francis Wolff". Wolff was a label executive for Blue Note, though I think his role as a photographer is more pertinent here, at it was his profession prior to joining the label and a sort of side-role during his tenure there too.

Hi FunkMonk, thank you for your comments. I've addressed all (or at least I believe I have - it's late where I am and this was my winding-down-before-bed activity) of your comments above and my edits should be reflected in the article. Hope to hear back from you soon. joeyquism (talk) 03:43, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good, I've added some answers above, and I should be able to support after your next round of replies. FunkMonk (talk) 01:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@FunkMonk: Hello again! I've addressed your comments above; apologies for any pushback that could potentially be the source of contention. Looking forward to what you may comment next. joeyquism (talk) 01:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - looks good to me, nice someone is tackling subjects like this. Would of course also be great if some of the for now unsolvable issues might be resolved down the line. FunkMonk (talk) 18:31, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for the wonderful comments and your support! Apologies that I wasn’t able to get to Laysan honeycreeper before its promotion; if any of your nominations come up in the near future, I’ll be sure to return the favor of making some hopefully helpful critiques over there. joeyquism (talk) 19:20, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Epicgenius


I will take a look at this soon. – Epicgenius (talk) 01:56, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for forgetting about this. Here are my initial comments.
  • Para 2: "Miles made approximately 400 to 500 album covers" - I think it may be appropriate to just say "Miles made 400 to 500 album covers" without any loss of meaning (the reader would assume that it's approximate anyway). Ditto for the last paragraph in the 1956–1967: The Reid Miles era section.
  • Para 3: "after his departure, Forlenza Venosa Associates" - You mean after Miles's departure?
  • Para 1: "Blue Note Records is an American jazz record label, founded in March 1939" - This is relatively minor, but the comma isn't necessary. You could remove it without any loss of meaning.
More in a bit. – Epicgenius (talk) 16:15, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Epicgenius, thank you for your comments here. I've addressed the ones you've listed so far; looking forward to what you may comment next. Hope you've had a great weekend! joeyquism (talk) 19:02, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Joeyquism, thanks, and I hope you're having a good weekend as well. I'll leave some more comments tomorrow, most likely, but so far I'm not seeing too many issues. – Epicgenius (talk) 19:55, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1951–1956: Early years:
  • I noticed this section uses "would" a lot, e.g. "At almost every Blue Note recording session, Wolff would take candid photographs", "the black-and-white photographs would be used infrequently". Is this a conditional "would" (for example, Wolff would take photos if something else didn't come up), or a future-tense "would"? If it's the latter, then I would suggest rephrasing these as past tense. It's not a big deal, but the essay WP:WOULDCHUCK somewhat explains why the future-tense "would" isn't optimal.
  • Thank you for pointing this out to me; I was kind of stubbornly leaving these in because I thought it read a little better, but I see the issue now. I've cut these and replaced with the past tense save for the last sentence, which I feel uses "would" in a way that serves as a lead-in to the next section quite smoothly. Of course, if I'm mistaken here or you have other thoughts on the last matter, please let me know. joeyquism (talk) 01:39, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 2: "the textual information and designs featured on the covers were prioritized over the inclusion of images" - So in other words, the images were cut if there wasn't enough space?
  • The source used as a citation for this claim states that "At first, Wolff's photography was used only sparingly in both advertising and on record sleeves. The dictates of design came first, and artists' names, tune titles and whatever else jockeyed for position on the front of an album jacket." There's a bit of a wrench thrown in with the ambiguity of "whatever else" here, but I would assert that your inclination here is correct. I believe I mentioned it earlier in this thread, but one of the first covers I could find was the re-release of Sidney Bechet's Jazz Classics from 1951, which was designed by Paul Bacon - notably, no photography is seen on this cover, but rather an illustration supplemented with some text about the artist and the release itself. Probably original research here, but I hope this at least helps your understanding a bit more. I'll do some rewording if requested by yourself or another reviewer. joeyquism (talk) 01:39, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the explanation. I don't think the info needs to be reworded at this point—I was just wondering about whether they cut the images if there wasn't enough space and if they were prioritizing textual info and designs. – Epicgenius (talk) 02:08, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1956–1967: The Reid Miles era:
  • Para 1: "Miles, a fan of classical music, was not interested in jazz, and relied solely on Lion's descriptions of the music on the albums in order to design their covers." - Two things here. "In order" seems redundant here, and the comma before "and" doesn't seem necessary either (the essay WP:CINS explains why).
  • Fixed. I also don't like using "in order" for the reason you mentioned; perhaps the "hit the word count" mentality I subscribed to when writing essays in high school came back to me here. That'll be my excuse here, lol. joeyquism (talk) 01:39, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 4: "Following Lion's departure, Miles also left, as Liberty's marketing team became more involved in the design process" - Was Miles's departure due to the growing involvement of Liberty's marketing team? Or did they just happen at the same time?
  • Cook states that "Reid Miles, too, stepped away from his design duties as the Liberty marketing people took a larger involvement" - you may also be picking up on the fact that there exists some annoying ambiguity in this source. I understood it to mean that Miles left as a result of Liberty's growing involvement, as the previous paragraphs in the book established that there was already some irritation with Liberty among the higher-ups at Blue Note and I think it would be strange if that somehow wasn't a persistent theme throughout the excerpt, if that makes sense. I'm not sure of a way to more clearly demonstrate causality, but I'll ponder a way of rephrasing it. If anything comes to mind, I would also appreciate your input here if possible. joeyquism (talk) 01:39, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1967–present: Post-Miles era
  • I suppose Blue Note didn't use Wolff's photographs anymore by this point.
  • Wolff's photographs were used on some of the covers for re-releases (as briefly mentioned in the style and composition section), but were not extensively featured by any means. Wolff died in 1971 (something I actually contemplated adding, but ultimately gave up on at some point because I felt it to be out of place as this isn't so much a chronicle of the history of Blue Note itself but rather one of the designers and their achievements), and of course you can't take pictures if you can't move your finger to press the shutter button, so by this time photography was mostly outsourced to other people. I'll look around to see if I can find more covers that use his photography from this period, though. joeyquism (talk) 01:39, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • By the way, do the covers designed after 1967 have any specific themes (like how the 1951-56 covers mostly use photographs by Wolff, for instance)?
I'll comment more on Thursday. – Epicgenius (talk) 00:28, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again for your comments, Epicgenius. Looking forward to the rest! Hoping that the next few days are nice and restful for you. joeyquism (talk) 01:39, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]



Just a couple from me:

  • You could add the Blue Note logo as an image in the lead. Your call.
  • In the Early years section, “did utilize Wolff's photography”: just “used Wolff's photography” would suffice

Nice piece. It’s a shame the copyright restrictions don’t allow more of the covers to be shown. - SchroCat (talk) 05:15, 18 July 2024 (UTC) (Addendum: I did most of my heavy lifting at the PR, but these comments are based on a fresh read through at FAC - SchroCat (talk) 06:18, 18 July 2024 (UTC))[reply]

Hi SchroCat, thank you so much for your comments! I've gone ahead and implemented both suggestions; let me know what you think about the inclusion of the logo as the lead image. And yeah, I'm bummed out about the copyright too - how much more colorful the article would have been had it not been for fair use limitations. Hope to hear back from you soon, and hope you've had a great week so far. joeyquism (talk) 05:54, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt