Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Apolo Anton Ohno/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 16:24, 12 January 2010 [1].

Apolo Anton Ohno[edit]

Nominator(s): oncamera(t) 00:50, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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I am nominating this for featured article because I feel it is ready for the next step after having passed its Good Article Nomination. The article has been also been through a peer-review. The issues raised in both of those have been addressed. The article is about an American Winter Olympian and I feel it does a fine job of covering his career. oncamera(t) 00:50, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. Alt text done; thanks. Alt text is present (thanks) but it needs some work. Most of the alt text repeats what is in the caption (see WP:ALT#Repetition) or gives details that cannot be verified by a non-expert who is looking only at the image (see WP:ALT#Verifiability). Please reword it to fix these two problems. For example, in the first alt text entry "Apolo Anton Ohno standing atop the podium wearing his gold medal at the Men's 500 meters medal ceremony at the 2006 Winter Olympics.", only the phrase "gold medal" should be in the alt text. Please see WP:ALT for more about alt text. Eubulides (talk) 02:11, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for making clearer what should be included in the alt tags for the images. I have made adjustments to them! I hope they are better suited now, oncamera(t) 03:26, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Much better, thanks. The only two phrases that still have problems are "Ohno" and "The medal ceremony took place in the middle of the ice-rink so", as neither of these phrases are obvious to a non-expert who can see only the images. Would you please remove and/or remove them too? Eubulides (talk) 03:30, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Went ahead and removed those two phrases! Maybe it reads better now, oncamera(t) 03:37, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that's much better. I tweaked the first phrase to turn it into a sentence. It looks good now. Eubulides (talk) 17:44, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for remedying that! oncamera(t) 04:29, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I substituted a template in the comment above to avoid future changes. --an odd name 11:09, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • No dab links or dead external links—good.
  • Dates are consistent Month Day, Year in prose and ISO style in refs—good.
  • Avoid abbreviations like "pbk" unless they are common, as they complicate screen reading (see WP:ACCESS).
  • Featured articles have prose that is "engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard". Repetitive prose, like the following, is not of that standard—check for any such repetition throughout:
    • "Ohno continued to perform well in the sport after the 2002 Winter Games. Ohno declined to participate in a 2003 World Cup short-track event in Korea for security reasons. However, despite the absence, he successfully defended his World Cup title during the 2003 season." (Replace the second "Ohno", remove the "However")
    • Another one: "A large number of e-mails protesting the race results crashed the Olympic Committee's email server, and also thousands of accusatory letters, many of which contained death threats, were sent to Ohno and the committee." ("and also"?)
  • Is the name "Apolo" related to, for example, "Apollo"?

--an odd name 14:09, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your concerns. I went ahead and remove the text (pbk), added info/source for the origins of his name (Apo=to steer away, lo=watch out, here he comes). I also went through the article and made edits to the repetitive nature of the prose. I hope I have addressed the issues accordingly, oncamera(t) 04:29, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. It's looking better. --an odd name 11:09, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • What makes the following reliable sources?
  • The Ohno ref (current ref 5) needs page numbers per WP:V, it's 153 pages. Also, this is aimed for a youth audience, is it really the best quality source? World Cat listing.
  • Current ref 11 (Claiborne..) lacks a publisher
  • Current refs 42 and 43 (2009 ISU World...) lack publishers.
  • Current ref 52 (Balta..) lacks publisher
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:35, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your concerns. I went through and added a work or publisher to current references 11, 42, 43, 52. The biography has information where Ohno talks about his childhood and his father, and while some of the statements can be cited using an online source, other statements will still need the book. I will go back and make those edits. The World Short Track site: it is difficult finding an official ISU results page for seasons before 2007. But, I'll look again for news articles to replace those possibly unreliable source (current refs 31, 32). Replaced former refs 31 and 32 with news articles from USA Today and the Seattle Times. oncamera(t) 01:22, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Current ref 1 is still being worked on? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:51, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I changed current ref 1 to a new one... Still working on changing the book references, I added the page numbers to the book source and changed the order of header hierarchy per WP:Layout. oncamera(t) 01:21, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Leaving the last one out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:38, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I reviewed this article for GA, so I don't have much say here, but I wanted to express my support, anyway. This is an interesting article about an intriguing subject. There has been a great deal of improvement since its GAN, although it needs very little to be promoted to FA. I also think that the topic is timely, with the upcoming 2010 Olympics. It would be fitting for Ohno's bio to be TFA while he's in Vancouver, making still more history. A note about DWTS chart: although I raised the issue at GAN, I have no problem with it as it stands. It's common knowledge, like Ohno's other sports stats and follows the convention of articles about other athletes. Thanks, --Christine (talk) 12:51, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments:

  • "He also competed in and won the reality TV show Dancing with the Stars in 2007."
    Quite disjarring to see this as the second sentence of the very first paragraph. It is nowhere as significant as his athletic achievements, and in my view lowers the expectation of a serious biography. I very much doubt a TV reality program is going to be a serious aspect of his life.
  • "The 13-year-old Ohno was the youngest skater ..."
    "At 13 years of age, Ohno was the youngest skater ..."
  • "... made a comeback from his previous losses;"
    What losses?
    Eh, I am talking about the timeframe at 1997, but your latest change seems to be touching on post-1998 point of time... Jappalang (talk) 10:53, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Made a tweak.[2] Jappalang (talk) 03:05, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He was a medalist in two events with controversy associated with the results."
    "He won medals/was a medallist in two controversial events."?
  • There appears to be some secondary analysis of Ohno's Salt Lake 2002 controversy.[3] Why is it not used as a source?
  • What are the thoughts of the Koreans toward Ohno? Is it just purely indignation over "being robbed" or are they viewing it as a matter of dishonesty?
    • (add-on): are there any outside commentary on the controversies? Jappalang (talk) 10:53, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is there some other aspect of his life other than ice skating? Forgetting the reality show, did he help out charities, contribute to some social cause, or such? (Apparently, he did participate in some fundraising.[4]) Did he set up a company or go into a notable business venture? As a celebrity, what other high publicity events was he involved with? Was he recognized by communities or organizations for something? Did he have any impact on a particular community? What are his thoughts, ambitions, ideals (which sometimes are evidenced in training regimes or interviews during injuries)? Is he interested in anything other than sports? Much is a chronicle of his sporting events, but nothing over his thoughts and actions over his victories and failures in his early years. Perhaps no reliable material that covered it, but surely some of the more serious publications on Ohno should be used for this article than relying on newspaper reports of the races?[5] It seems probable secondary commentary or analysis of Ohno's character/performance might be missing, giving me concerns over the comprehensiveness of this article. Jappalang (talk) 02:28, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

From his point of view, he probably finds being on the reality show somewhat significant, but not in comparison with his athletic career, as they are two different things. On his Twitter, his stint on DWTS is listed second. I have moved it down in the opening... I clarified and copyedited the other two sentences. I didn't know that source on his Salt Lake controversy existed and it doesn't load in my browser (neither does the other Google source). Is there pertinent information there lacking in the section? And I cannot speculate on the thoughts of Koreans who were or were not hostile against Ohno. I would rather keep a neutral point of view here and stick to what happened and usage of quotes of fellow skaters (avoiding weasel words). And for the last part, I'll look into adding significant charities or sponsorships. I'm not sure about adding details about what his favorite hobbies or even where to add in his thoughts on his ambitions without sounding like fancruft. Maybe you can link me to a comparable article for reference? Thank you for your concerns, oncamera(t) 03:45, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
When I wrote "serious aspect of his life", I am referring to how the world sees him, not himself. He might see himself as a twinkle toe, but the world at large remembers him more as a fleet of foot skater. On Korean reaction, I am pretty sure as well that there are Korean (and other Asian) sources just as reliable, reporting on their community's perception and giving serious commentary/editorial on the incidents. It is not a matter of NPOV (which do not let you strike out reliable sources) but comprehensiveness; if there are serious and respectable commentaries over this incident, they should be reported. As for books, criteria 1c asks for "high-quality reliable sources" and I believe a book from a respectable publisher beats out newspaper articles most of the time. I am not so particularly hard up on this point if these sources are out of your reach (library or otherwise) or if they do not cover what is written here. For other articles that might serve as references, I consider Jada Pinkett Smith's FAC version, which failed, and Ayumi Hamasaki's, which passed, as quite comprehensive on the persons themselves. Jappalang (talk) 10:53, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I added a Philanthropy and sponsors section. Changed the losses to loss. What serious aspect of his life do you want? He hasn't started any foundations, controversies he's been involved with have been on ice, isn't married, no kids, etc. He's basically studies business ongoing at the University of Colorado since his sport/training takes up a considerable amount of his time. As for the Korean reaction, it's noted how they reacted: how can I know what were the possible motives or find a reliable/verifiable source to this? There is commentary from the skaters who were in the race; each with something different to say. And the quote by Ohno also explains. Also, I don't know enough Korean and wouldn't trust Google Translator to help source a possible featured article per WP:NONENG. Have you seen the talkpage for this article? The Korean stuff has been the main topic. Anyway, I understand what you're saying about "high-quality reliable sources" but that shouldn't mean I can't use news articles if I can't find the books you listed. Finally, it would be more helpful to me if you could find comparable articles that are about athletes (keep in mind Ohno's sport isn't as popular as others)... oncamera(t) 04:00, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe that (Ohno's relative obscurity in non-sporting affairs) is the problem here. I think the issue of "no sources for such information" vs "still not comprehensive" has been fought over FACs several times. I am not going to bring it up here, I am just commenting that the article gives me a very limited picture of this athlete. Generally, a biography should tell who the subject is, how he or she thinks, what achievements and legacy he or she has, etc.
Thus, the additions of his philanthropic and commercial efforts are appreciated. I think the prose for those sections need to be improved a bit, and possibly reliable comments for them (or his motivation behind these activities) found to make them less of a list.
Back to the Korean side of events, the project is a collaborative effort, and I have seen several Korean-English capable editors around. They might be able to help with translating those articles. Neither WP:NONENG nor the project forbids foreign sources ("sources in other languages are acceptable where an English equivalent is not available."). If they are reliable, they should be included. If there are no such sources, then one cannot be faulted for not including them. Jappalang (talk) 03:05, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I happened to click on the link showing Ohno-related books on Google. There are four Ohno biographies listed on the first page, but all of them are listed as juvenile non-fiction. As such, I'm not convinced that they meet the criteria for high-quality reliable sources. The first one I see is an autobiography (should be handled cautiously), and it's hard to tell if the others are serious works. They certainly aren't like the sports law book also linked above. That only applies to the four books I saw on the first page; there may be others in later search pages that would be better for our purposes. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 03:27, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In regards to the autobiography used, it was to source information about his early life. I also used/added an online source from a newspaper to those sections. And, I used the biography source for some of his early achievements. It can be very different to find a non-pay-per-view source for speedskating events prior to 2000 (etc), since the International Skating Union hasn't been diligent with updating it's site for scores/results.see? I'm not sure about the other books on Google (doesn't load for me) or if they would provide new information that is pertinent. oncamera(t) 18:57, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Using an autobiography for early life information that can't be found in other sources should be all right. I'm just saying that you shouldn't generally make a habit of using juvenile books, especially if better references are avaliable. I don't know if that's the case for this particular article, though. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 01:21, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dabs; please check the disambiguation links identified in the toolbox. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:36, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done. That link was on a Dancing with the Stars template. oncamera(t) 00:31, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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