Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bradley Joseph

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 02:07, 1 June 2007.

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Bradley Joseph

Nom restarted (old nom) Raul654 19:20, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

• Comment, the quote initating the "Solo career" section would be great for one of those cute quote boxes, would it not? -- Phoenix2 05:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply There used to be one there, but the template was up for deletion so I took it out. Not sure what has happened with the template since then.

All of the quotation templates, including {{Quote box}} look untouched to me. -- Phoenix2 ^{(talk, review)} 21:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I tried other quote boxes, but I think my preference is still the blockquote. Cricket02 13:36, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

• Comment cite no. 25 doesn't seem to hold relevant text for the sentence it's citing. --Dweller 16:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply I believe you are referring to this statement: Joseph's musical style is distinguished by a clear focus of melodic construction; and its polyrhythmic, or layered, character.25. I wrote this introductory sentence based on the interview, in that he focuses on the melody first, and that he incorporates many different sounds to provide texture to his music. You're right though, its not quoted verbatim in there. I can take that sentence out if you like. Cricket02 17:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

This has been reworded and attributed - LuciferMorgan had the same concern (below). Cricket02 17:37, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Comments from LuciferMorgan

• Comment Everything from the lead has to be in the body. For example, the fact he was born in 1965 should be mentioned in the body (specifically the "Biography" introduction). Do you have his full birth date, as in the day and month also? This would same basic information to be fair. LuciferMorgan 23:09, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply I very much appreciate you commenting here LM. All your comments make perfect sense and I will be responding to each little by little.

• To reply to the above comment, unfortunately I don't have a source on a full birth date. Cricket02 16:44, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

That sucks a bit. LuciferMorgan 19:26, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Citations 26 and 27 can be merged since they're the exact same sources. LuciferMorgan 23:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply 26 and 27 (scroll down) are by the same reviewer (Michael Debbage), but are different links. Cricket02 16:44, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Didn't notice. I apologise. LuciferMorgan 19:26, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

"Joseph came of age as a musician in the Twin Cities' rock scene, heading up many of his own bands.[4]" - This is written as though it's fact, when actually it's an opinion. When a musician "came of age" can be debated - while one notable critic can cite one specific period of a musician's career, another reviewer can cite a very different period and disagree totally. To amend this you would have to state who feels Joseph "came of age" during this period. Eg. you could say "X Magazine's critic Y feels Joseph came of age..." or maybe "Joseph cites his period in the Twin Cities rock scene as the time he came of age as a musician" - basically whichever fits. LuciferMorgan 23:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply Good point. That statement came from a newspaper article, (ref 4), of which the author is credited in the reference, but the statement is not in quotes within the article nor does he credit Mr. Joseph for saying it, so I can't say for sure if the author coined that phrase himself, or if he got the information directly from the subject. So I've chosen to recast the sentence instead: He then settled down to playing the piano and keyboards, heading up many of his own bands in the Twin Cities' rock scene.[4] - hopefully that's better. Cricket02 16:44, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I think I'd recommend changing it back to "came of age" but at the same time attributing it to the guy who said it. So it'd be "Brainerd Despatch's Terry Mikelson cites his period in the Twin Cities...." LuciferMorgan 19:33, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Done.

"It consists of 10 original compositions ranging from upbeat piano to orchestral ballads." - This is another case of a critic's opinion written as though it is fact. Whether a piano composition is "upbeat" or "downbeat" depends on one's tastes as what we feel to be upbeat may differ from person to person. In my opinion the fact it's upbeat has to be attributed to its source in the text - ie. the critic or person who holds the opinion has to be named in the text. LuciferMorgan 23:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply Agree to take out MusicOutfitters reference on that (below) regarding that it is "upbeat", but I did add reference to the subject's site instead (http://www.bradleyjoseph.com/The_Music.asp) in which he says the album is upbeat as well. Is it okay to use this as a reference? Cricket02 17:15, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

It's from the official website so it can be successfully argued that it is biased for the same reasons I stated regarding the MusicOutfitters reference. LuciferMorgan 19:26, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

(chuckling) Yup, I figured that. I got nothin else then, for that album regarding the "upbeat" part, other than my Original research|...:) I'll rework it.... Cricket02 19:49, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Hard working on obscure artists / bands isn't it? LuciferMorgan 19:52, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

"Bill Binkelman of Wind and Wire Magazine wrote that One Deep Breath departs dramatically from the previous, more explosive and dynamic music on Joseph's first two recordings, having two separate "personalities": piano and keyboard-based ambient/new age soundscapes and more adult contemporary/classically flavored songs." - I'm assuming this is a quote so can you add quotation marks to where the whole quotation begins? This would make the critic's opinion clearer. For example, until "dramatically", "explosive" and other such adjectives are in quotation marks, this can be deemed original research in my opinion. LuciferMorgan 23:26, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply Quotation marks added. Cricket02 02:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

"Joseph's music can be heard in regular rotation in the United States and Canada by more than 160 major radio networks, including XM Satellite Radio, Sirius Satellite Radio, as well as in Japan, United Kingdom, Spain, China, South-East Asia, Germany, Switzerland, and Russia." - This is a redundant phrase since this possible fact may not be true in the next few months, few years or whatever. The sentence gives the impression it will remain true eternally, which of course isn't the case since music artists increase and decrease in popularity over time. This needs to be reworked somehow so that this fact remains true, instead of becoming false if Joseph's music becomes unpopular. LuciferMorgan 23:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply. This is another example of something I added to help establish musician notability in the beginning phases of the article (discussed with KingboyK in previous nom). I'm thinking it is no longer needed. I am drawing a complete blank on how to rework it so I will go ahead and remove it unless you have a better idea. Cricket02 02:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

"They include Charlie Adams (drums, percussion); Ric Fierabracci (fretless bass); Jeanette Clinger (vocals), and Grammy-winning Charlie Bisharat, whose violin attracts attention in the driving opening song, "Rose Colored Glasses" (sample (help·info)).[13]" - Another case of a critic's opinion written as though it's factual. The critic you state may feel the violin "attracts attention" and the opening song is "driving", though is this a universally held opinion? Is this the opinion of every critic? Of course not. So what's stopping someone finding a differing viewpoint? The fact it's a critic's opinion needs clarifying in that it needs to be stated which critic holds this opinion.

Also, www.musicoutfitters.com sells CDs by Bradley so it could be successfully argued they would write a positive, even misleading review of Joseph's work in order to gain sales. Criterion 1. d. says ""Neutral" means that the article presents views fairly and without bias; see neutral point of view", so the citation is in violation of this criterion. LuciferMorgan 23:43, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply Agreed - statement and reference removed. Cricket02 17:15, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

The music sample boxes under "Musical style and composition" all have brief descriptions which read like a critical summary. Of course these brief descriptions are opinion, and also need a citation and an attribution - if these brief descriptions are cited and attributed in the body this could be excused. LuciferMorgan 23:53, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply Citations are in the body, yes. Cricket02 02:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The "Music samples" could benefit from being split up as it'd improve the article's layout overall - check "Smells Like Teen Spirit" and Christ Illusion to see what an article looks like when it's music samples are spread throughout the article instead of being crammed together. LuciferMorgan 23:57, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply The 4 samples in the box are discussed in the paragraph adjacent to it. Cricket02 02:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Still looks aesthetically displeasing though, and would still improve the layout.

I think I may not quite understand here. Do you mean inline? Or do you want me to split them up throughout the section, or throughout the article as a whole? Because they are basically examples of style of music so I pretty much need them in that section. Cricket02 16:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Firstly, their description needs to be inline cited within the box like "Jihad" does. Secondly, yes they'd benefit from being split throughout the article as a whole which is what I am recommending. I disagree that you need all 4 in that section - maybe one or possibly two, but definitely not four. A great example of this in my opinion is the FA Nick Drake, so feel free to inspect it. LuciferMorgan 16:28, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Inline citations done. My problem is this: I added a "Musical Style" section by WikiProject Composers preferences, to discuss the different styles he incorporates. If I spread the discussion and samples throughout the article, I'd have nothing left for this section, know what I mean? (The obscure artist problem again lol) On the same note, (in response to below), looking at the Nick Drake musical style section, not every sentence regarding his style is specifically attributed in quotes, but do of course have inline cites where the info can be found. Is using inline cites not good enough in this instance? Cricket02 17:37, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough as regards the boxes, though keep it in mind for future reference. I'd entirely disagree with the style that the Nick Drake article for all the reasons I've stated throughout - that opinions widely differ among critics and that the info is presented as though it is factual. Eg. in Drake it says "However, his lyrics do not invoke the metaphors and imagery typical of such influences.", whereas actually what lyrics invoke differs from person to person and I would argue such a statement needs attribution. I feel my opinion is valid, though if you wish to disagree feel free to do so, but I personally feel that if you attribute all the statements the article will be greatly improved. For example, the first paragraph on the "Musical style and composition" looks much much stronger, and I feel if the rest of the section follows in its footsteps you're well away so to speak. Up to you really. LuciferMorgan 17:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I see what you mean, especially in re-reading "Christ Illusion". Okay, will work on better attribution tonight. Cricket02 18:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I think I'm ready for another look (sheepishly ducking). Cricket02 00:08, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Second paragraph in the "Musical Style" section needs to be split in half. LuciferMorgan 00:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Done. Cricket02 15:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

"More recent releases include For the Love of It and Piano Love Songs, in which Joseph uses piano, orchestra, and soft rhythms to cover popular and enduring melodies such as "I'll Never Fall in Love Again" (Burt Bacharach), and "Fields of Gold" (Sting)." - "Popular and enduring" can be interpreted in many ways, and I'd argue the phrases may be redundant. In using the word "enduring" do you mean that they'll go on forever and still be here in 30 years? In using the word "popular" do you mean they'll eternally be popular in a global sense? And also, how can you measure popularity? By X amount of CD sales? Is there a specified requirement? It can be debated for either argument one wishes to hold I suppose. LuciferMorgan 11:53, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply Agreed the phrases are redundant and open to argument. Removed for neutrality. Cricket02 19:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

"Joseph's musical style is distinguished by a clear focus of melodic construction; and its polyrhythmic, or layered, character.[25]" - According to whom? Everyone? Of course not. This is yet more critical opinion written as fact. Please name, attribute and source whoever holds this opinion. LuciferMorgan 11:53, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply - Yes - Dweller had this concern as well (above). I wrote this introductory sentence based on an interview, in that he focuses on the melody first, and that he incorporates many different sounds in his music. Its not quoted verbatim though, basically paraphrased. Maybe "distinguished" is not neutral enough, maybe "...includes a clear focus of..."? Cricket02 02:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

If it's an answer that Joseph gave to a question, it should be attributed to Joseph. If it's something the interviewer said, it should be attributed to the interviewer. Whichever way, it needs attribution as this may not (as in the case of all music) be universally agreed upon. Also, the quoted info needs quotation marks. LuciferMorgan 15:09, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've reworded and attributed [1] - hopefully that's better? Cricket02 16:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Definitely, much improved and good on yourself. The rest of the section needs the same work - I can pick out all the sentences which need attribution but that'd basically be the rest of the "Musical style and composition" section. LuciferMorgan 16:24, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Striking this as this kind of got merged with above comment. Cricket02 00:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

"Many of his recordings offer uptempo orchestral melodies such as in "The Bridge". - What's "many" can be debated, and how can "many" be measured? 75% of his material? Or 90%? "Many" is a little unspecific, so this should be reworked somehow. LuciferMorgan 19:38, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply Reworded. Cricket02 02:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Could you strike out all of the comments of mine that you address? Thanks, as I prefer this method and it helps me understand what progress is being made. LuciferMorgan 19:40, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply Sure. Cricket02 02:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

"More recent releases include For the Love of It and Piano Love Songs, in which Joseph uses piano, orchestra, and soft rhythms to cover melodies such as "I'll Never Fall in Love Again" (Burt Bacharach), and "Fields of Gold" (Sting)." - The word "recent" is a redundant phrase, since "recent" means different things to different people. Furthermore, it won't be recent in a year or two. LuciferMorgan 21:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply Changed "recent" to "subsequent". Cricket02 00:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

"Joseph is featured on the multi-platinum album and video, Yanni Live at the Acropolis." - Are there any critical reviews of this CD / video which specifically highlight Joseph's contribution to things? If so, it'd be nice if they were added. LuciferMorgan 00:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

"He later returned as a featured instrumentalist on Yanni's 2003 Ethnicity world tour.[9]" - Any live critical reviews from this tour available which highlighted Joseph's performance and critiqued it? LuciferMorgan 00:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

"He appeared with her on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno when she performed her new single at the time, "My Cheri".[12]" - Any TV reviews available which critiqued Joseph's performance on the show? LuciferMorgan 00:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

"Brainerd Dispatch's Terry Mikelson cites that Joseph came of age as a musician in the Twin Cities' rock scene, heading up many of his own bands.[4]" - Are the names of any of these bands available, and a brief critical summary (from a critic of course) of the bands' musical style? LuciferMorgan 00:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

"In 1988, Joseph caught the attention of contemporary instrumental artist Yanni via a mutual friend, guitarist Dugan McNeill. When Yanni heard a demo tape of Joseph's compositions and arrangements, Joseph was hired to join his core band, replacing John Tesh.[5]" - What caught Yanni's attention as regards this demo tape? What did he see and admire in this demo tape? Why did he ultimately hire Joseph, and what qualities did he feel Joseph could add to his band? These are questions it'd be great if the article could answer. I'd recommend trawling through all the Yanni interviews you can find and finding where he mentions Joseph for any worthwhile info you can use. I'd also recommend trawling through all the Yanni CD reviews / live reviews, the lot, to see where critics mention Joseph, and see if that info is worth using. LuciferMorgan 01:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

"In between tours with Yanni, Joseph performed with Sheena Easton for five years as her co-musical director and lead keyboardist. "It was a great transition from Yanni because it made me musically aware again", he said in reference to Easton's R&B style." - How did he get introduced to Easton? Why did Easton choose him particularly as her co-musical director and lead keyboardist? What did she see in his ability? Same as I recommended with Yanni, trawl through all the Easton interviews, CD / live reviews, the lot, and find where Joseph is mentioned in order to glean worthwhile information. LuciferMorgan 01:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Group reply All excellent questions, all of which burn in my mind as well. I've done very extensive specific-key-word google searches on all of this in the past. Much of the history of this artist occurred in the early years of internet creation, so info is hard to come by. The 2003 concert tour would be the most recent, and have found some mentions and other critiques, but nothing I can really use as they are not considered to be reliable sources, i.e. blogs, youtube, fan sites, etc. You did get me combing through some of what I already had but didn't realize it, so I've added a few minor things. Cricket02 15:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

That's a fair response - you're a big fan it sounds like. It'd actually be cool if you could interview him or something - says you can request via his official site - and then upload it to Wikisource or something. Would that class as a reliable source being in Wikisource then? It'd be cool if it did. LuciferMorgan 16:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that would be cool. I'll look into it. Cricket02 18:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

"While playing in the jazz band in junior high, he took a concert field trip which left him with no doubt that a career in music was what he wanted." - Such a bold statement needs a citation. LuciferMorgan 16:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply Done.

Citation 25 is a commercial link. You cannot use it as a source unfortunately for that very reason. LuciferMorgan 18:09, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply - Rats! Didn't even notice since it was archived, just thought it was a review. Okay, can I say this without a reference? His recordings can offer orchestral compositions such as in the songs "Robbins Island" or "The Bridge". Cricket02 18:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd recommend finding an alternative source. Doesn't AMG have anything on Joseph? LuciferMorgan 18:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

There's my early internet years problem again, his first two albums (1994 and 1997) are his most upbeat and "orchestral" albums, but I got nothing to actually say so, in trying to describe the ways in which his music has varied over the years. Maybe I could email him and see if he has any "paper" reviews I could get copies of. Cricket02 19:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

That's definitely a good idea - see if he has scans. I'd definitely look into the Wikisource suggestion though and see if it's possible. LuciferMorgan 19:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Duh, I forgot about this one reference, moved it from the top. Is that any better? The ref looks confusing because it is a actually a review of another album, but Rapture is mentioned in it. Cricket02 19:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Looks fine - don't worry about the "confusion", as this is something I've also done in articles (quoted from reviews of different albums where the one in question is mentioned). LuciferMorgan 19:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

• Lead needs work. Firstly, you need to cut down the paragraphs from 4 to 2 by merging them. Secondly, you need to avoid repetition since every sentence seems to begin with "Joseph" in the lead - some sentences need rewording in other words. LuciferMorgan 01:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply Lead overhauled. Kingboyk wasn't happy with the lead beginning with his early touring info, but I think I'm more comfortable with it in chronoglocial order of some sort. Your thoughts? Cricket02 15:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Looks alright to me the lead does. LuciferMorgan 23:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

• Support I feel it now meets featured article standards, especially given the fact the article is on quite an obscure musician. LuciferMorgan 23:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you LuciferMorgan. You expertise on FA criteria, and time have been very much appreciated here. Cricket02 01:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Support Previous issues addressed in the GA review, previous FAC (before restart) and nominator continues to make changes based on users critique, goodjob Cricket :) M3tal H3ad 08:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.