Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Death of Jimi Hendrix/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by GrahamColm 10:01, 10 March 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Death of Jimi Hendrix[edit]

Death of Jimi Hendrix (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): GabeMc (talk|contribs) 05:53, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this because I believe the article is well-written, well-researched and comprehensive. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 05:53, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk)

  • The lead doesn't feel right to me, but I'll skip that.
    • Its improved now, but can you tell me something more specific about what seems to be missing? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 04:53, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're switching between past perfect and past tense; generally, use past tense in a narrative.
  • "By around 2 p.m. he had sat": I'm not sure of the meaning. "he was sitting", maybe? If not, then probably just "He sat ..."
  • I've made some changes that I think will help. I'm going to stop there, because I'm not confident that I know what this article is supposed to sound like ... understandably, it dwells on what would have been tedious details on any other day, so it's hard for a copyeditor to know what to strike and what to keep. In general, try to eliminate words that don't add meaning. Best of luck. - Dank (push to talk) 04:09, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for the comments, I'll keep them in mind as I edit. The past perfect thing has been "forced" on me by so many other editors, I don't even fight them anymore. Maybe I'll get away with it now. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 04:13, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Several paragraphs of past perfect, on the theory that it all happens before his death, isn't precisely wrong, but narrative writing generally isn't done that way these days. - Dank (push to talk) 04:17, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Right on, I think its maybe an WP:ENGVAR issue for some, as I have been editing so many UK subjects lately, maybe not. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 04:23, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • It's more common in BritEng, and sometimes my calls on BritEng are completely wrong, but I think even in BritEng we're generally avoiding several paragraphs all in the past perfect at FAC. - Dank (push to talk) 00:18, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Continuing. "In the days leading up to his death, Hendrix was fatigued and suffering from poor health" is repeated word for word 3 paragraphs later. Sometimes in a long article I see things repeated verbatim, but not that close together.
  • "he was infrequently examined by doctors.": Not sure what that means.
    • It means he "rarely saw a doctor", which I suspected someone would accuse of being grammatically incorrect. Afterall, I could walk into a hospital and see a doctor or two, but that would not mean I was examined medically. Is there something incorrect about "infrequently examined by doctors"? Would "rarely examined by doctors" be an improvement? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:47, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Go with "rarely saw a doctor", it's more idiomatic. - Dank (push to talk) 00:31, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "it was determined": who determined? A doctor?
  • Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 04:38, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks much for your helpful comments and edits, as well as your support. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:47, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral. Sarastro has convinced me that I'm in over my head here; I'm not familiar enough with articles like this one to do a good job with the prose. Sorry. - Dank (push to talk) 15:17, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I think a background section would be ideal given that you suddenly introduce the details.--Tomcat (7) 12:13, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Are you suggesting I document the details of his final several days, instead of just his final day? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 13:48, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, and perhaps any significant triggers that contributed to his death (drugs, etc). Just a random note that asphyxia is linked twice in the lead. Good work at first glance. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 16:40, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thanks much for the suggestion and for the encouragement! I've now added some background details to help establish the context of his death. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:39, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from a brief glance
  • Add pics of Hendrix.
  • Lead and infobox makes doesn't name what city he died in.
    • Its unclear if he died at the Samarkand Hotel, Notting Hill or at St Mary Abbot's Hospital, Kensington, London, so I've added to the lead that he was pronounced dead at St Mary Abbot's. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:06, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Infobox: you should flesh out the caption, location and date like Death of John Lennon.
    • The infobox used at "DOJL" is for a civilian attack, so I'm not sure how I could use that infobox here. Perhaps there is a better alternative that you could suggest. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:09, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm wondering—should Background have a paragraph or two summarising his life and status just before his death? Basically, who he was. That he was major musician, internationally renowned for his new style of guitar-playing etc?
  • Can Final hours and Inconsistencies be subsectioned? They look imposing and monotonous. You can also add pics.
    • I've now subsectioned "Final hours" and moved some material around from "Inconsistencies" so as to improve brevity and flow. I think this resolves your above concern. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:37, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can Inquiry and Allegations be merged? One-paragraph sections look stubby.

Not sure I'll be revisiting. Best of luck with the FAC.—indopug (talk) 05:47, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Indopug. I appreciate your comments and hope you can find the time to revisit. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:37, 16 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image review by FunkMonk (talk) 02:15, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • There is perhaps a freedom of panorama[2] issue with the following image: [3]
  • This fair use image needs a caption that states its importanc:[4]
  • The free Hendrix image[5] seems a bit weird, and I can't access the source page for some reason.
  • The infobox image has no problems. FunkMonk (talk) 02:28, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for taking the time to review the images. I believe I have now addressed your above concerns. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 02:41, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Evanh2008[edit]

Looks like a good article, and I should be supporting shortly.

Lead section:

  • "In the days leading up to his death, Hendrix was fatigued" - I'm pretty sure this, and the next sentence, should be in the past perfect. Others may disagree, and this is probably nothing more than a stylistic decision on my part.
  • "Finding no evidence" - I would use the past perfect for this sentence too. The rest of the lead is fine.

Background:

  • "suffering from poor health" ---> "in poor health", for brevity.
  • "another woman, Kristen Nefer and was" ---> "another woman, Kristen Nefer, and was" - Comma.
  • "'Devon get off my back'" - Does Brown include a comma after "Devon"? If not, I would add one, per MOS:QUOTE.
  • "the show along with three others were" ---> "the show, along with three others, was"
  • "her boss, actor George Lazenby and" ---> "her boss, actor George Lazenby, and"
  • "record producer Alan Douglas discussing" ---> "record producer Alan Douglas, discussing"
  • "Hendrix friend, Sharon Lawrence" ---> "Hendrix's friend Sharon Lawrence"

Final hours:

  • "According to Dannemann, by 3 p.m. they left" ---> "According to Dannemann, by 3 p.m. they had left" - If "by [time]" terminology is used, the past perfect is called for.
  • "to a Chelsea antiques market where Hendrix purchased more clothing" ---> "to a Chelsea antiques market, where Hendrix purchased more clothing" - Comma.
  • "Later, Dannemann and Hendrix were invited by Phillip Harvey, the son of an English lord, to tea; they accepted." ---> "Later, Phillip Harvey, the son of an English lord, invited Dannemann and Hendrix to tea; they accepted." - Active voice. I don't mind, but others will. You might also try to find out what title Harvey's father held, as "Lord" is a form of address and not a formal office.
  • Fixed. The sources say that Harvey was the son of an English lord and he was concerned because of his father's "position", which would seem formal. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 09:12, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most likely Phillip's father was a Baron. I'm looking into it right now and will get back to you if I find anything. Otherwise it would probably be best to change "lord" to "nobleman", as "lord" is very rarely used outside formal terms of address. (As per this article, it is "a generic term to denote members of the peerage".) Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 09:30, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Prior to their arrival at Harvey's they" ---> "Prior to their arrival at Harvey's, they"
  • The sentence on Harvey's affidavit is a little confusing. If he remained silent until 1995, what is he doing swearing an affidavit in '94? Or have I read that wrong?
  • "In his statement he claims" ---> "In his statement, he claims"
  • The word "also" in "to have also been mildly" doesn't seem necessary.
  • "Sometime after returning to the apartment Hendrix" ---> "Sometime after returning to the apartment, Hendrix"

Post-mortem examination and burial

  • "Dannemann later claimed that Hendrix, unaware of the brand's high potency, took nine of her prescribed Vesparax sleeping pills. Intended to be taken in one-half tablet increments, nine tablets of the powerful German sedative amounted to 18 times the recommended dosage." needs to be changed to "Dannemann later claimed that Hendrix, unaware of the brand's high potency, took nine of her prescribed Vesparax sleeping pills, which were intended to be taken in one-half tablet increments. Nine tablets of the powerful German sedative amounted to 18 times the recommended dosage." A participle has been confused somewhere along the line here.

Inconsistencies:

  • "We went to sleep about 7 a.m.." I think an extra full stop has crept in there. Ending it with one full stop is just fine, even if that full stop is also part of an abbreviation.
  • "When I woke up at eleven his face" ---> "When I woke up at eleven, his face" - MOS:QUOTE

Scotland Yard inquiry and allegations of murder:

  • "re-open" ---> "reopen"
  • "The investigation eventually proved inconclusive when in 1993, Attorney General" ---> "The investigation eventually proved inconclusive in 1993, when Attorney General"
  • The paragraph on Wright's book needs some work. The claim that Jeffery held insurance on Hendrix isn't mentioned until its rebuttal, so it should probably be introduced prior to that. I'm not sure the bit on Trixie Sullivan's statement belongs here, as it doesn't appear to be directly connected to accusations of wrongdoing against Jeffery. Maybe find a place for it up in the Final hours section?

Final lyrics:

  • "Dannemann phoned Eric Burdon frantically complaining that she could not wake Hendrix up." ---> "Dannemann phoned Eric Burdon, frantically complaining that she could not wake Hendrix." - Comma. Also, don't end a sentence with a preposition; "wake Hendrix" works well enough.
  • Why isn't "a woman, she claimed his name" italicised?

Very small issues. Once these are resolved, I'll give it another look and will most likely be ready to support. Great job so far! Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 08:25, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to provide your helpful review. I believe I've now resolved your above concerns. Please let me know if you catch anything else. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 09:12, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the speedy response! I'll have some further input shortly. Looks good. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 09:21, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, notwithstanding one minor issue mentioned above. Feel free to archive resolved comments to talk or elsewhere if it begins to clutter the page. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 09:30, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • One last thing - Why the linebreak tags in the "cause" field of the infobox? Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 13:25, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Sarastro1[edit]

Oppose: I notice that most comments have been on prose so far. While there are problems with the prose, I think that this article has more troublesome issues. The lead is not great, but the whole article seems to be missing important information and, perhaps more importantly, explanation of and commentary on events. I know bits and pieces about this topic, but I'm far from an expert; even so, there seem to be several important missing pieces. I've commented on the lead and left some other general comments. This oppose is not set in stone, and I would like to see this featured, but I think a lot of work could be needed. Sarastro1 (talk) 15:02, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to comment. As far as "the whole article seems to be missing important information", can you please be more specific. I own 25+ books on Hendrix, so I could find any important information, but I have no idea what you think is currently missing. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:57, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lead:

  • I'm not a fan of a one-sentence opening paragraph in the lead.
  • "In the days leading up to his death, Hendrix had been fatigued and in poor health, due in part to severe exhaustion caused by overworking, a chronic lack of sleep and a persistent case of influenza. Insecurities about his personal relationships and frustration with the music industry had contributed to a fragile mental state.": This is all quite clunky, and could be simplified and streamlined. E.g. "In the days leading up to [before] his death…". We have "fatigued … due to exhaustion" (!) and several parts where the relationship between events is unclear. Was the severe exhaustion caused by overworking AND a chronic lack of sleep (third repetition of tiredness here, as well) or was the fatigue and poor health caused by exhaustion AND a chronic lack of sleep.
  • "Though the details of his final hours and death are disputed, Hendrix spent much of his last day with Monika Dannemann, socializing with friends.": The comma after Danneman is odd here, but I'd suggest that "socializing with friends" is unnecessary.
  • "He awoke late on the morning of September 17 at her flat in the Samarkand Hotel, 22 Lansdowne Crescent, Notting Hill and was pronounced dead at St Mary Abbot's Hospital, Kensington, approximately 24 hours later.": I'm really struggling to see what is going on here. On my first reading, I though this meant that he awoke dead at her flat. Then I read it that he spent the whole of his final day at the flat. But this wasn't the case and I doubt that the most significant thing he did on his last day was wake up. This is an odd way to lead into the events.
  • The article said: "socializing with friends", which is what he did that last day. Should I be more specific? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:54, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Intended to be taken in one-half tablet": "One" seems redundant.
  • "unaware of the brand's high potency, took nine of her prescribed Vesparax sleeping pills. Intended to be taken in one-half tablet increments, nine whole tabs of the powerful German sedative amounted to 18 times the recommended dosage." For the lead, this is really over-emphasising that he took too many of a powerful sleeping pill. Way too much detail. And this rather presumes the cause of death, which I understand is under some dispute.
  • The cause of his death was absolutely the sleeping tabs, its the circumstances surrounding the event that are debated, not that he overdosed on Vesparax. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:54, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I thought the cause of death was inhalation of vomit? Not actually an overdose? Sarastro1 (talk) 23:02, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Right, the death certificate states: "Cause of Death: Inhalation of vomit, barbiturate intoxication." So yes, technically he died from asphyxia, and not a drug-overdose per se, though Teare concluded that Hendrix accidentally overdosed on Vesparax, which caused the vomitting, which lead to the asphyxia. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:27, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead is rather sparse on other details. Most readers who come here will, I suspect, be looking for confirmation or refutation of conspiracy theories. Yet the lead does not really go into any of these details other than "Though the details of his final hours and death are disputed". The only events given in the lead are that he woke up and that he died. The lead is not summarising the article as no mention is given to the inconsistencies or the inquiries. And that the coroner (why "the post-mortem inquisitor"? The post is called the coroner) recorded an open verdict is left out in favour of "concluded that Hendrix accidentally overdosed" which even the main body does not say. Sarastro1 (talk) 15:02, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, but above you just said the lead had "Way too much detail" regarding the cause of death. Also, FTR, per your above comment: "which even the main body does not say", the article states: "He found no evidence of violence or suicide and concluded that Hendrix accidentally overdosed", and it did so before your review. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:54, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

General points: I've only dipped into parts of the remainder, but here are some initial thoughts and suggestions.

  • The prose is lumpy and quite poor in parts. Some examples only (not an exhaustive list):
    • "During the week preceding his death, he was stressed by two pending lawsuits": Why "preceding"? "Stressed" is not encyclopaedic.
    • "he was infrequently examined by doctors": What? They rarely examined him? Why make this point? Or does this mean "occasionally" examined by doctors?
      • Fixed. The point was there to explicate that he was not taking proper care of himself. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:13, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Routinely surrounded by dozens of hangers-on and lacking close, trusting relationships, his insecurities about the future and frustration with the music industry contributed to a fragile mental state.": Why is "hangers-on" (which is also unencyclopedic) linked? I doubt that this was an issue solely in the lead-up to his death, which the other factors presumably were.
  • Why do we have a whole paragraph on his press interview in the background?
  • And the background seems long generally. Why all the detail about Nefer?
  • The background sections never says who Danneman is, and gives none of her background with Hendrix.
  • The background really should have more about Hendrix' drug-use as this would seem to be more relevant to his death than some of the other details here. On a more general level, the whole background sections seems to be tacked on, and quite random in its content.
  • The section summarises his last week, and all the verifiable details about his drug use during this period are included. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:41, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The whole "last day" seems rushed and flits from one thing to another without suggesting a coherent narrative or offering explanations. While I'm far from an expert on Hendrix, I know that the version presented here is slightly one-sided. Devon Wilson played a rather larger part in events than is suggested here. She was not exactly an ex, and she was in London only because he was. And the version of the party seems to be mainly Danneman's version.
    • If "Devon Wilson played a rather larger part in events than is suggested here", then the sources I own do not support this. Again, I've read 25+ books in preparation for this FAC, and none of them implicate Devon as being partly responsible, as you seem to believe. Per: "the version of the party seems to be mainly Danneman's version", 1) that's nto accurate, the account given in the article is based much more on Harvey's statement then Dannemann's. Also, only two people ever gave statements regarding the party, Harvey and Dannemann. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:41, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just to clarify, I did not mean that she was responsible, just that she played a larger part than indicated. But I'm happy to defer to the 25+ sources. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:57, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • To clarify, the only "source" that I am aware of that casts any aspirations on Devon Wilson in regard to her behaviour that night is Dannemann, the least reliable source possible for information about Jimi's other girlfriends. To address this point further would seem to open the door for more issues related to your below concern: "Lots of things are hinted at, but not explained". GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:36, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The state of his relationships with the various women at this point could perhaps be made clearer.
  • Hendrix had lots of girlfriends, he was promiscuous, but few, if any of these girlfriends were in a relationship with Hendrix in the traditional sense. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:41, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lots of things are hinted at, but not explained. Danneman's inconsistencies are pointed out but there is no further comment. There is a section about murder allegations, but it never states who is alleged to have murdered him. The implication is Danneman, but it is never explicitly said, and as I understand it, there are a few other candidates for a potential murderer.
  • Per: "it never states who is alleged to have murdered him", Wright only claimed that Hendrix's manager, Mike Jeffery, admitted to him that he had Hendrix killed, Wright does not say who killed him. Anyway, the story is absolute baseless rubbish and deserves no more attention then this IMO. How could I comment further on Dannemann's inconsistencies and not run afoul of WP:OR? No judgement has been made and this case will never be fully solved. Only two people know for certain what happened that night, and both of them are now long dead. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:41, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although I'm not sure how well it tallies with other sources, there is quite a lot on Hendrix's death here. Maybe useful? Sarastro1 (talk) 15:02, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm not seeing anything important that isn't already covered in Brown, Tony (1997). Jimi Hendrix: The Final Days. Omnibus Press. ISBN 978-0-7119-5238-6, which David Comfort lists as a source for his book. Also, looking at Comfort's bibliography I see that I own (and have read) every book he used as a source. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:59, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Reply: OK, I've struck the oppose and I'm going to pull out of this one. I'm never a huge fan of the "I've read 25+ books argument", and I can only address what you present here, not what else you have read. I can't provide enough evidence either way for what should or should not be included; certainly not from reliable sources. I'm not convinced that this article is comprehensive enough, but I admittedly do not know enough about the source material to oppose (or support). I suspect that this article will disappoint any readers who come this way, though, even if what they may be looking for confirmation or refutation of "is absolute baseless rubbish and deserves no more attention then this IMO" (I hope the sources support your opinion!). I maintain that things are not fully explained though: the last day in the main body is surprisingly sparse on explanations, and we still have no suspect for the murder allegations, which looks odd. And the prose needs a polish. But I am not opposing, and won't be revisiting. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:57, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1) There was never a murder suspect named, so there is no way to include a name here unless I make one up. 2) the sources absolutely support my assertion that the murder allegations are "absolute baseless rubbish", 3) How can I explain the unexplainable? The story of Hendrix's death is shrouded in mystery, thus if things don't always seem to add up, its likely because sometimes they don't. 4) What specifically do you think needs further explication? 5) FTR, all I meant by "I own 25+ books", is that I could surely find any important datum that is also verifiable in the reliable sources if you would be more specific. "The whole article seems to be missing important information" is not an actionable objection without some specific suggestions. That's all I meant, not that I remember absolutely everything I read, just that I have at my disposal a large library of books from which to glean information about this subject. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:04, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Jimi Hendrix, 17 September 1970.jpg - the service and his guitar may be copyrighted. Quite Likely de minimis applies here, so no real issues.
  • An image of his gravesite would be nice.
  • An image of a dead Hendrix, eg in an autopsy, x-ray, would be optional, as "Wikipedia is not censored". Something that has high EV.--Tomcat (7) 12:29, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There are images of his gravesite on the internet. It resembles a sculpture or work of art, and so, as far as I am aware, a photograph of it probably is not permitted on the wiki on copyright grounds, because there is no freedom of panorama in USA. Snowman (talk) 21:39, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Cassianto[edit]

Generally agreeable stuff. Here are my thoughts...

Lede
  • Do we need to be told what country London is in? Also, do we need to link London?
  • "Depressed mood" - Why do we mention mood? Depression would be the medically correct term to use. "Mood" seems a little redundant.
  • Hang on. There is such thing as a depressed mood, which is different from clinical depression. What actually do the references say? Snowman (talk) 17:30, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • *Hang on*, depression means mood in this context. I wasn't exactly thinking of this or this. Why do we need to dumb down? Further to that, the lead states "Insecurities about his personal relationships and frustration with the music industry had also contributed to his depression." I would suggest that if Hendrix suffered a series of depressive moods, then depression would be correct here. -- CassiantoTalk 19:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • This must be accurately sourced. See Depression (mood) where it says; "Depressed mood is not necessarily a psychiatric disorder. It is a normal reaction to certain life events". There is no need to guess about medical terms here. Snowman (talk) 19:38, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • We have yet to establish if Hendrix suffered a series of depressed moods. If so, this would be indicative of depression. GabeMc, could you elaborate please? -- CassiantoTalk ,
  • What the sources say is that he was known for radical "mood swings", but not clinical depression per se, though he did author the song "Manic Depression" in 1967. I've now removed this bit as lacking verifiable sources. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:03, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Samarkand Hotel can do without the link. This does not help the reader to this article and is just another link off the article onto another. We want to keep the reader not loose them by way of an unnecessary link.
I see nothing wrong with a link to another Wiki article. The location of the hotel could be interesting to many UK readers. Snowman (talk) 17:30, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sure, why not link hotel too; this could also be interesting right? Why on earth do we need to provide a geographical link, derived simply from the hotels name, just because Hendrix stayed there. Those clicking on to this article want to find out about Hendrix' death, so want the salient facts and links that help to understand it, not be tempted off onto a completely unrelated article. The point here is to capture the reader and make them want to stay, not tempt them away. As far as this article reads, he never even went to Uzbekistan, so why produce an unnecessary link? -- CassiantoTalk 19:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Dannemann called for an ambulance. He was lifeless on arrival at St Mary Abbot's Hospital." -- Firstly, could we combine these two sentences as it reads a little uncomfortably. Second, was he dead on arrival to hospital? Is this what "lifeless" means? If he was dead, please say he was dead. Lifeless could be assumed to be unconscious.
Hang on. Some things are uncertain. As far as I am aware, there is conflicting views where and when he actually died, so it may be presumptive to say that he arrived at the hospital dead. The doctors at the hospital tried to resuscitate him, and I presume that they would not work on a dead body. What are the facts? "Lifeless" is an undiagnosed state and he was later certified dead. I had used the word "lifeless" intentionally. Sometimes a deep coma can give the outward impression of being dead unless examined very carefully. Snowman (talk) 17:30, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Firstly, dead is a neutral word. Secondly, you won't get a doctor saying "It's OK nurse, put him over there he is lifeless. I will pronounce him dead later". We only need to mention the fact he died, not what kind of un diagnosed state he was in. Thirdly, I don't think you will find many people splitting hairs, wanting to know what road it was the ambulance was driving past at the time of JH's last breath. The salient fact is that he died. Wheather it be on the way or whilst at, hospital. I summed up at the end of my review that the article was in danger of producing too much excessive detail; I consider your preferred description of in between life and death to be just that I'm afraid. -- CassiantoTalk 19:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • No. Where Hendrix died is critical to various peoples accounts of the story. I think that being precise about where and when he died is being presumptive and tends to prejudice various peoples accounts. Snowman (talk) 19:25, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why does his death location matter? The fact he was pronounced dead is notable. Having seen this reliable source, it appears he may have died in hospital upon in an attempt to resuscitate. Could we not skip the "lifeless" remark, and cut to the chase? "Hendrix was taken to hospital where an attempt was made to resuscitate him; he was pronounced dead at..." -- CassiantoTalk 19:50, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, I think that something like you said or like this would be fine; "An ambulance took Hendrix to hospital, where an attempt was made to resuscitate him and then he was pronounced dead at...". In UK a doctors might say "flat", "unconscious", "in a coma", or "collapsed", but some if this is jargon, so I suggested "lifeless". I agree with you that "lifeless" can be improved. Snowman (talk) 20:11, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

GabeMc, could you construct this based on this resolution? -- CassiantoTalk 21:27, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • "tabs" - short for tablet, right? Why have we shortened an already short word here?
Background

"During the week before his death, he was dealing with two pending lawsuits, one a paternity case and the other a recording contract dispute that was due to be heard by a UK High Court the following week. He also wanted to leave his manager, Michael Jeffery". -- I can see how two lawsuits could help tip a fragile mind over the edge (if suicide was suspected of course), but wanting to leave a manager? It's placement here looks as if Hendrix was troubled by this desire to leave his manager. If he was troubled, could we say so?

  • "Depressive mood" again. Not for one moment was I thinking of any disambiguated alternatives. Depression would suffice.
Hang on. As above, a depressed mood and depression are different and not can not be assumed to be the other. The article must stick to what it said in the sources. Snowman (talk) 17:30, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hang on, as per above. Be careful in prompting someone to "stick to what it said in the sources"; a slight variation is always preferred to prevent this. I should very much doubt that the source means this. GabeMc, was Hendrix known for successive episodes of depressed moods? -- CassiantoTalk 19:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, text form sources should not be copied directly into Wiki articles. To prevent further misunderstanding I would like to make it clear that all text in the article about Hendrix's health should be written in keeping with the principals of the Wiki, be sourced from a reliable sources, and be verifiable. Snowman (talk) 20:52, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Assuming the source says "Hendrix suffered a depressive mood", then there really is nowhere to go with altering to satisfy the close paraphrasing. That is why I would suggest swapping depressed mood for depression or something similar. I take your point that a depressed mood is a singular form and would suggest an isolated instance of being particularly pissed off. I would be happy to relent if it were proven that this was an isolated instance. However, a series of these would suggest something more underlining and I would elect to say depression so it covers all. -- CassiantoTalk 21:36, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, we can write "depressed mood" in the article, if the source says "depressed mood", because the two words are commonly used together and so no hint of a copyright violation occurs. I assure you that we have to be cautious and careful with any diagnosis that might be relevant here. Please note that a depressed mood is not the same as clinical depression. Erudite comments welcome. Snowman (talk) 21:46, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The sources do not support any type of clinical diagnosis of depression, so I've removed the datum as inaccurate and/or unverifiable. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fine. Snowman (talk) 23:05, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think the phrase "i feel depressed" is over used as a self-diagnosis if one is having a particularly bad day. I have heard this on many occasions. However, I have never heard of anyone saying "I feel depressed mood". I feel the parenthesis of "mood" is used to differentiate for the benefit of disambiguation purposes. Nevertheless, it appears to have all been ironed out now. -- CassiantoTalk 23:57, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • OVERLINK to London.
  • "On September 11, 1970, Hendrix gave his final interview. In his suite at the Cumberland Hotel in London, he talked with journalist Keith Altham of the Record Mirror." -- Why the period after interview? I would phrase this "On September 11, 1970, Hendrix gave his final interview in his suite at the Cumberland Hotel in London, where he talked with Keith Altham, a journalist for the Record Mirror."
  • During the interview, Hendrix confirmed reports that bass player Billy Cox was leaving Hendrix's band." -- Obvious question, what were the band called?
  • Hendrix confidante Sharon Lawrence..." She may well have been, but who was she? Friend? Girlfriend?
  • She was a friend. I used "confidante" to avoid the redundancy of "friends" in her quote. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:52, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, but we go onto say "Later that afternoon, another girlfriend, Monika Dannemann..." which would suggest Lawrence was a girlfriend as we speak of no other female between Lawrence and Dannemann? -- CassiantoTalk 05:30, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Inappropriate link to Samarkand again. It plays no part in helping to understand the subject matter.
  • the Animals should be The Animals.
  • Wow, I had no idea about this, thanks! -- CassiantoTalk 05:30, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The following day, Hendrix received a phone call from one of his girlfriends, Devon Wilson. She heard rumours that he was dating another woman, Kristen Nefer, and was jealous." -- "The following day, Hendrix received a phone call from one of his girlfriends, Devon Wilson who had become jealous after hearing rumours that he was dating another woman, Kristen Nefer."
  • "Hendrix spent most of the early afternoon and evening of September 14 with record producer Alan Douglas, discussing his career plans." -- Whose career plans? Douglas or Hendrix?
  • "In the early morning hours of September 15, he accompanied Douglas, who was returning to New York, to London's Heathrow Airport." --suggest-- "In the early morning hours of September 15, he accompanied Douglas to London's Heathrow Airport, who was returning to New York."
  • "Hendrix confidante Sharon Lawrence was in London, and she spoke with him that day. -- Redundant use of "she".
Morning and early afternoon
  • OVERLINK to Dannemann
  • "According to Dannemann, by 3 p.m. they had left the apartment on their way to a bank and then to Kennington Market..." -- "According to Dannemann, by 3 p.m. they had left the apartment to use a bank and then followed onto Kennington Market, where..."
  • What are "specialty shoes"?
  • "...who invited Hendrix to a party taking place later that night." Copy editing needed. Perhaps, "...who invited Hendrix to a party that evening".
  • "Dannemann reportedly acted jealous -- jealous is a state of mind and one cannot act so. "Dannemann reportedly became jealous" would be more accurate.
  • " Phillip Harvey, the son of an English nobleman..." -- His lineage is redundant. The fact he was a son of a nobleman has, as far as I can see, no relevance to this at all.
  • This is important to the point made in "Late afternoon and evening": "Harvey, who had remained silent about the incident out of respect for his father, gave a sworn affidavit after his father's death in 1994."
  • Could we not mention the fact he was an English nobleman nearer to that then? "Harvey, who had remained silent about the incident out of respect for his English nobleman father..." It has more of a use there than its current position. -- CassiantoTalk 05:30, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...asking him to find a way out of his contracts with his manager Mike Jeffery." Also, why the plural of contract? How many did he have with Jeffery?
  • "...holding a favorite Fender Stratocaster guitar that he called the 'black beauty'" -- "a favourite" or his favourite?
  • "Dannemann reportedly became jealous..." -- Suggest removing "reportedly" as per WP:WEASEL.
Late afternoon and evening
  • "...asked Hendrix and Dannemann to quiet down" -- quieten down.
  • "Harvey, who remained silent about the incident until out of respect for his father..." -- typo I believe of "until".
  • Some may question as to what an affidavit is. Link?
  • "According to Harvey, Dannemann screamed at Hendrix 'at the top of her voice'..." I would do away with this quote. You don't scream quietly do you? This could be incorporated into the text, or better still, be left out altogether.
  • "...before leaving with Dannemann by 10:40 p.m." At 10:40 p.m. would be more accurate.
  • "After stopping at the Cumberland, Hendrix and Dannemann followed Harvey to his luxurious apartment..." -- Did Hendrix and Dannemann go with him? "followed" suggests they did just that without Harvey knowing. Suggest, accompanied if he knew of their company on the way to the flat.
  • "Harvey and two of Harvey's female companions..." -- Repetition of Harvey; I think we could get away with "his" here.
  • "Dannemann claimed to have then prepared a meal for them at her apartment around 11 p.m., when they shared a bottle of wine." -- "Dannemann claimed to have then prepared a meal for them at her apartment around 11 p.m. and shared a bottle of wine.
After midnight
  • "According to guest Angie Burdon, the estranged wife of Eric Burdon of the Animals..." -- Where was Burdon a guest, at Kameron's residence or the party? If its the latter, we havent arrived there yet.
  • Unless I'm missing something, this looks fine to me. "Hendrix asked Dannemann to drive him to the residence of an acquaintance and business associate, Pete Kameron. While there, Hendrix ... According to guest Angie Burdon".
  • We say: "At approximately 1:45 a.m. on September 18, wanting to attend the party Wilson had invited him to earlier, Hendrix asked Dannemann to drive him to the residence of an acquaintance and business associate, Pete Kameron. While there, Hendrix complained to him about business problems, ate some food, and took at least one amphetamine tablet. Approximately 30 minutes later, Dannemann rang the intercom and said she was there to pick him up. Another guest, Stella Douglas, respectfully asked her to return later, which she soon did. According to guest Angie Burdon, the estranged wife of Eric Burdon of the Animals, when Danneman came back, Douglas used an assertive approach with her to the point of being impolite." -- A suggestion is made that he wants to go to a party at the start of the text. We then say he drives to Kameron's house. His attendance at Kameron's house, sounds like it is an unscheduled stop on the way to the party. Is this where the party was? We then go on to call Burdon a guest. Currently, this would suggest that she was a guest at Kameron's house, where I suspect she was a guest at the party. This suspicion makes the whole paragraph confusing. I think we either need to say that Hendrix left Kameron's house and arrived at the party where "...guest Angela Burdon said..." Or, if the party was at Kameron's house, then we need to call it the venue of the party. Sorry, does that make sense? -- CassiantoTalk 05:47, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ahh, I see what you mean now. Excellent point. I think this concern is now resolved, but please correct me if I am wrong. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 06:01, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At approximately 1:45 a.m. on September 18, wanting to attend the party that Wilson had invited him to earlier at the residence of an acquaintance and business associate, Pete Kameron, Hendrix asked Dannemann to drive him there." -- Seems a bit clunky, suggest: "At approximately 1:45 a.m. on September 18, Dannemann drove Hendrix to a party hosted by Pete Kameron, an acquaintance and business associate of Wilson."
  • "...Stella Douglas, respectfully asked her to return later, which she soon did." -- Redundant use of "soon", unless she returned earlier than expected. "Soon" also sounds as if it is real time. I would use "which she did a little while later."
Post-mortem examination and burial
  • OVERLINK of Washington.

Everything after this looks OK. I will look again tomorrow, but for now this is all I have to offer. If I was to be ultra critical, I would say that there is a bit too much trivial detail in places, like observing the fact that he had a Chinese meal and enjoyed cups of tea in the garden, but this is only minor; I like detail generally. Feel free to discuss any of these at any point. -- CassiantoTalk 23:55, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've trimmed out that the meal was Chinese food as excess detail. I think the tea datum is somewhat important, as he is seen with the tea set in the final photos. I don't feel too strongly about it though, so if you think the article would read better without it, I will certainly remove the point. Thanks for your kind, helpful, and insightful comments. The article is much improved due to your effort. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 02:28, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, I now think the cup of tea is relevent based on the photo. Sorry, I missed that. Answering points only at this juncture you understand, I will take another read through later :-) -- CassiantoTalk 05:30, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I really appreciate your comments, thanks! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 06:06, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the meal was a Chinese food is a detail that does not need to be removed. I think that small details can help to set the scene. His stomach contents may have been important to his vomiting, which is discussed. Snowman (talk) 18:42, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
LOL, you are joking right? How is naming a type of food which he had for dinner encyclopaedic? He could have had a custard cream that day and choked on the digested result. Will we be mentioning that too? Are you seriously suggesting we find out that days diet on the off chance that this brought on the vomiting? Did he have an intolerance to Chinese food? If not, may I suggest we leave the conspiracy theories out? -- CassiantoTalk 20:09, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Are you going off on a tangent here? Snowman (talk) 20:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

May I suggest taking this to the talk page and keep this FAC squabble free? -- CassiantoTalk 20:17, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To answer your questions: I am not joking about keeping the Chinese meal in the article. I think that what he ate in the last 12 hours of his life is significant and encyclopaedic. I am not suggesting that the meal caused vomiting. I am not sure if he had an allergy nor not, but I have not seen it written down that he had, so I think that it is very unlikely that he had a Chinese food allergy. This has got nothing to do with conspiracy theories that I am aware off, so I am puzzled why you raised that point. I would guess that he was not off his food that day. Snowman (talk) 20:33, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"I am not suggesting that the meal caused vomiting." *cough* "His stomach contents may have been important to his vomiting." If you are no longer suggesting this, then I resume my initial point that this is redundant information. We do we need to know the contents of his stomach before death, unless it was a primary factor in his demise. None of this articles peers, give this kind of information on the run up to the death. -- CassiantoTalk 21:19, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To simplify it, I would say that stomach contents and vomiting are associated. The stomach contents may not be the cause of vomiting. Of course, his stomach contents is important and relevant, because he died with vomit in his airways. Snowman (talk) 21:29, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If the stomach contents are not the cause of vomiting, then why on earth are we listing what kind of food he had eaten earlier that day? This is redundant. Please see talk page. -- CassiantoTalk 22:01, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Rice was found in his stomach at post-mortem, so his Chinese meal is relevant and should be included. Snowman (talk) 13:47, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please format this conversation correctly Snowman. You don't need to put so many space markers at the start of your text as I have to keep outdenting. Right, your insistence here is unintelligable. A lot of countries have rice as a staple diet. Why are we mentioning Chinese specifically? -- CassiantoTalk 15:59, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support – per the above resolved comments. The article is comprehensive but not discursive and meets all of the FA criteria. The documentation is thorough and wide ranging and the prose is good. A fine article which I am very pleased to add my support to. Well done! -- CassiantoTalk 22:35, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Snowmanradio[edit]

  • Has there been excess trimming during this FAC? Snowman (talk) 20:00, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Why was this removed? It says he laughed, which gives a little insight into his mood. Do depressed people laugh? Snowman (talk) 20:00, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Do happy people cry? Do sad people smile? It's not beyond any physical capability to do both. -- CassiantoTalk 20:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Being cheerful is not a feature that depressed adults generally show in abundance. I think that the conversation should be kept in. More opinions welcome. Snowman (talk) 20:42, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
From what I can tell it says nothing about there being an abundance. You don't need to be cheerful to express a smile or laugh. It depends on the situation. -- CassiantoTalk 21:04, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep in mind that Hendrix was to some extent "performing" when he gave interviews, so if he seemed upbeat with that laugh, it might have had something to do with protecting his professional image. FWIW, I've read the entire transcript of the interview and in general, Hendrix does not seem abundantly happy or optimistic. If anything, he comes across as quite tired of the music business in general and mentally and physically exhausted (which he was by almost all acounts). FTR, this analysis of his final interview is my own WP:OR, and nothing of verifiable substance that should be added to the article. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:15, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Why was this removed? It seems to show at least one unstable relationship. Snowman (talk) 20:00, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Snowman, I removed this and this in response to Sarastro1's above review. I agree that the datums are important so I've now restored them. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:20, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Provisional impression: I am concerned that the article may not be neutral and has become somewhat presumptive in places. The infobox image of the hotel tends to suggest that there is no doubt that he died at the hotel, which tends to prejudice Dannerman's account. This impression in the infobox may be corrected by a more suitable caption, removing the image, or replacing the image with something else. Where did "depressed mood" come from? Why was "depressed mood" changed to a diagnosis of depression? Why is Dannerman's account frequently followed by someone or something contradicting her in the inconsistencies section? Surely, the events would have been unforgettable to her and she gave an statement to a policeman at 4 pm on 18 September on the day of the tragic events. Can the inconsistencies be interpreted? "... paramedics who responded to the call show that they found Hendrix alone in the flat", so who let them in? Did Hendrix have a diagnosis of depression? if so, then why is it not on the death certificate. I recall a UK TV program on the topic and Dannerman was interviewed, so if it can be sourced it might be helpful. Snowman (talk) 19:18, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • 1) "The infobox image of the hotel tends to suggest that there is no doubt that he died at the hotel". While there is some dispute regarding where his official place of death was, according to Ian Smith, one of two police officers who responded to the emergency call at around 11:30 a.m.: "The ambulance men were there, but Jimi was dead ... There was really nothing they could do for him."[57][nb 10] Also, ambulance crew member Reg Jones later commented: "We felt his pulse ... showed a light in his eyes. But there was no response at all."[45] Trouble is, the police nor the ambulance crew can officially pronounce someone dead. However, Dr Bannister later commented: "On admission he was obviously dead. He had no pulse, no heartbeat, and the attempt to resuscitate him was merely a formality." I think I originally stated that he was unconscious when transported to St Mary's were he was pronounced dead at 12:45 pm, this has now been removed by someone other than myself. 2) Per: "why is Dannerman's account frequently followed by someone or something contradicting her", because according to the sources, she changed her story nearly every time she told it, right through to 1996 when she was in contact with Tony Brown (who had known her since 1980). 3) Per, "... paramedics who responded to the call show that they found Hendrix alone in the flat", so who let them in? The flat was unlocked, they let themselves in. I'll explicate this further in the article. 4) As far as Hendrix being diagnosed with depression, no, not to my knowledge, I've now removed this as inaccurate and/or unverifiable. 5) Per: "I recall a UK TV program on the topic and Dannerman was interviewed, so if it can be sourced it might be helpful." Again, Dannemann's account changed regularly (almost every time she told it), right through to her death in 1996, so everything she said must be taken with a rather large grain of suspicion. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:36, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If there are reliable sources for any of that, then perhaps some of it could be added to the article to make it more understandable. Note that pulse can be thready, breathing can be shallow, and pupils fixed in massive barb od. In my opinion, it can be difficult to differentiate between massive barb od, brain death, and a perhaps recent death. As far as I am aware, it is not a formality to try to resuscitate every dead body that arrives in casualty; however, I think that it would be a duty and an obligation to attempt a resuscitation when not entirely certain about a death, especially on a young person. If officials were convinced that JH was dead in the hotel, then would an alternative course of action have been for a policeman or an ambulance man to call a dr (perhaps a police surgeon) to the hotel to certify death and then JH's body could have been taken to a mortuary? Snowman (talk) 22:42, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comments Snowman. 1) Per: "If there are reliable sources for any of that ...", I assume you mean something like this. 2) Per: "Note that pulse can be thready, breathing can be shallow, and pupils fixed in massive barb od. In my opinion, it can be difficult to differentiate between massive barb od, brain death, and a perhaps recent death." According to Reg Jones, Hendrix's bowels and bladder had already released and much of the vomit was dry, indicating that he had died before the ambulance arrived at the Samarkand. I could add more detail to that effect if you think its helpful, but I was trying to avoid too much detail about vomit, urine and feces, but perhaps its needed. What do you think? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:06, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As long as the observers are reliable, then that is just the sort of information that would be helpful. Dry vomit could indicate the time when he vomited. I have never heard of the empting of bladder or bowels after death, but if it is said to have happened then it might be significant of something. Snowman (talk) 23:13, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Details added. For the empting of the bladder and bowels post-mortem, please see here. Reg Jones said "all that goes when you're dead."(Brown, 1997, p.136) GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:37, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He discovered a partially collapsed left lung and 400 ml of fluid in Hendrix's chest". That is interesting. What did the pathologist make of that? What colour was the fluid? Is there any microbiology of the fluid or histopathology of the lung? I am not sure where this will lead, so it might or might not be relevant to FA. Snowman (talk) 22:27, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately, Teare did not offer any conclusions regarding the cause of the lung collapse or the presence of fluid, nor did he indicate the color of the fluid or analyze its chemical contents (I own transcripts and facsimiles of the documents). GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:42, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nevertheless, it does sound significant to me, but it is clearly not the cause of death. I think his post-mortem findings do have a place in the article. Did the coroner ask anything questions about the collapsed lung, pleural effusion, or heart? Was anything said about which chambers were enlarged on the right side of the heart? I wonder if the right heart dilation and liver congestion could indicate pulmonary hypertension (and right heart failure) perhaps secondary to pulmonary pathology. A little atheroma would not be particularly unusual in someone of Hendrix's age. There are lots of causes of pulmonary effusion. All this is my speculation, which can not be included in the article. Can you interpret the post mortem findings? Snowman (talk) 23:13, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Both Teare's and Thurston's post-mortem findings suffer from an utter lack of conclusions (other than cause of death). They only state facts and do not speculate, at all. I've included the details I found interesting, but as far as interpretations, your guess is as good as mine. Do you think I should remove the bit about atheroma as inconsequential? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:23, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • A little atheroma in the coronary arteries is not significant at his age, but obviously the pathologist had to look and state that there was not a blockage there. You could probably omit the atheroma and let it be assumed that, if he an MI, then it would be clearly recorded. It seems to me that he had something else wrong with him in life owing to the 400ml pleural effusion, which I think is significant. This would show up on a chest X-ray and would lead him to have hospital investigations. What other abnormalities were noticed at post-mortem? If you can not understand anything written in the post-mortem report, then note the problems here and will look at it. I would hope to understand a post-mortem report on an adult including reading between the lines to see what the pathologist was thinking. Obviously, the pathologist sent blood for barbiturate levels; nevertheless, if samples were not taken for histopathology and microbiology, then a diagnosis for the pleural effusion and possible lung pathology may not be available. I suspect that you will not be able to improve on simply listing salient post-mortem abnormalities. Incidentally, where did you get a copy of the post-mortem report? Snowman (talk) 14:51, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've now removed the bit about the atheroma. What I assume to be most of the post-mortem report is included in Tony Brown's book, but I have no way of knowing for certain what's not included. The book seems quite thoroughly researched, and its attention to detail is meticulous, so I doubt that much of interest was excluded. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:49, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... persistent case of influenza."; can you give this more detail and perhaps more prominence? This sounds an unusual phrase, because influenza is usually an unpleasant illness lasting between one and two weeks only. A common complication is post-viral fatigue, which might be the cause of tiredness and lack of energy for several weeks or longer. However, in his case, I might associate the influenza history, the abnormalities in the lungs, and pleural effusion. Did he have any pain in his last weeks or days? Snowman (talk) 15:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • According to Brown, Hendrix was feeling the effects of a cold/flu as early as 27 August, and right through to his death. No particular pain was mentioned, although Jimi was known for not revealing those types of details. According to Brown, it was influenza, though I am sure that this is his own OR. A viral infection does indeed sound more likely, but there is no evidence of this that I am aware of. My guess is that, in their arrogance, after they concluded his cause of death they did not look further for any evidence of disease or infection. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:49, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hopefully, this edit resolves the issue. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 07:00, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • When a pathologist has more than about three post-mortems to do in the morning and more office-related work in the afternoon, then there could be a tendency to concentrate on the major post-mortem findings. I do not think that any arrogance is involved, because pathologists are not known to be arrogant about their work in my opinion and will always double check and discuss findings. I think that doing post-mortems quickly and as efficiently as possible is a reflection of the work load. Of course, the forensic pathologist will go in to a lot of detail when a death is caused by suspected foul play, partly because the pathologist may have to face complex cross examination in courts. I suspect that JH's death was seen as a simple case of overdose at post-mortem. Personally speaking I am disappointed to hear that investigations of the pleural effusion and collapsed lung did not go further (as far as we know); however, I wonder if there are any more clues in the full post-mortem report. To explain the pleural effusion and his persistent "flu" related illness, I suspect that JH had "flu" that caused protracted lung disease and pleural effusion or made a pre-existing lung disease worse. As far as the article is concerned, can you put something like a "persistent illness assumed to be influenza related", if this is consistent with reliable sources. Snowman (talk) 11:03, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps "arrogance" was a poor word choice. All I meant was that once they viewed his death as "yet another" rock star drug OD, I doubt they felt the need to be more thorough. Also, at the time (1969–70) they dealt with ODs somewhat regularly according to Jones, so Jimi's death didn't seem all that extraordinary at the time. I'm particularly surprised that no attempt was made to determine the time of death, but my understanding is that even today, if its pre-rigor or during rigor, they have a decent chance of an accurate estimate, but post-rigor, ToD is nearly impossible to determine within an accuracy of 8–12 hours (please correct me if I am wrong about this), which would tell us nothing we didn't already know; Hendrix died sometime between 3 a.m. and 12:45 p.m. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:28, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • If he was already dead at the hotel, to estimate the time of death, I think that they would need to have made forensic observations on the body at the hotel and noted the ambient temperature there. Of course, the body would have been put in a fridge in a mortuary while awaiting post-mortem examination (from 18 to 21 September), so I think that estimating the time of death from the post-mortem examination any more accurately than indicated by the story would not have been realistic. If the body had been in a warm room for a day or two, then there would have been a degree of autolysis, which would be noticeable by microscopic examination of tissues. Snowman (talk) 12:33, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "20 mgs of amphetamine and cannabis"; please clarfy how much of each drug there was individually. Please give the drug concentration in terms of units of weight/volume. Snowman (talk) 15:29, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Amounts clarified. Per: "give the drug concentration in terms of units of weight/volume", Teare estimates that Hendrix ingested 20 mgs of amphetamine and 20 mgs of cannabis that night. I've made this edit in an attempt to resolve your concern. I don't think I have the figures in a weight to volume ratio. Thanks again for all the great comments! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 02:41, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am glad that you clarified that, because it thought it was referring to a blood concentration. Snowman (talk) 10:22, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On September 29, Hendrix's body was flown to Seattle, Washington." For completion, do you have more details of the journey. Which UK airport? Snowman (talk) 16:14, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't seem to find that datum, though I assume it was Heathrow. I'll keep digging. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:32, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Etchingham said the scar was there when Hendrix arrived in England in 1966."; sounds rather vague. Snowman (talk) 11:55, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree, its vague. I put it in a note so that the reader wouldn't think the injury that caused the scar was recent, falsely impling a recent suicide attempt. The speculation is that Hendrix might have cut his wrist during the time he was struggling in New York, before coming to the UK in 1966, but that's all unverifiable heresay. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:32, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the "After midnight" section, there is nothing between the ambulance arriving at 11.27 am and leaving at 11.35 am. Even saying; "what happened and who was there is unclear", would be helpful, I think. Snowman (talk) 09:55, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is quoting the lyrics a copyvio? Snowman (talk) 10:19, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not a copyvio expert, but the quoted lyrics are contained in the source, so I'm really quoting Hendrix via Shapiro and Glebbeek. Also, according to Wikipedia:Lyrics and poetry, this would seem to qualify as a legitimate fair use. "Quotations of the work within the analytical framework can fall into the fair use provisions within US copyright law". GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:56, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Shapiro and Glebbeek might have had special permission to use certain material including the lyrics in their book. Perhaps, there is an acknowledgement to the Hendrix estate or something at the end of the book or in the preface. I hope that someone will help out with fair use of lyrics on the Wiki. It might need special demarcation as being fair use rather than the usual CC licence, if it is fair use. Do you need to made a case for far use (similar to a fair use image). I think that this will need attention. I expect that there are Wiki-guidelines that might support fair use here; however, Wikipedia:Do not include the full text of lengthy primary sources is one guideline that is not in favour of coping copyrighted text into articles. Snowman (talk) 12:11, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Teare "concluded that Hendrix accidentally overdosed." This sounds odd to me, so I would be grateful if you would double check the exact wording, because explaining a death in this detail is something that the coroner decides after collecting all the evidence including the post-mortem examination report. I think that the pathologist is probably more likely to write down that the post-mortem findings are "consistent with an accidental overdose" if he was to speculate on the cause of the barbiturate intoxication. I note that in this case the coroner opted for an open verdict and not an accidental death. Snowman (talk) 19:24, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good catch. I removed the datum as a likely synth by secondary sources. I don't think Teare made any judgements about Hendrix's intentions. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:34, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Provisional impression (2). I think that the article has improved a lot. I find it interesting to read, despite its very sad story. I think that the medical aspects are much more understandable. I think that key words and phrases are appropriate for an event that happened in London. I am optimistic, partly because I think that the nominator has been open minded, kept on task, and has maintained a friendly atmosphere, which would be welcoming for more reviewers, who might be thinking about making comments here. Snowman (talk) 18:43, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Heading "Aftermath". This is a new section. Is there a better heading title? I know what you mean, but for me it is not a word commonly used for the time after someone has died. It is usually used after a battle or a storm. It is also a Rolling Stones LP. What about a heading title "In the media" or something like that for the news stories. Snowman (talk) 09:56, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... adjourned pending the results of further tests." What tests? Snowman (talk) 10:41, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately, the source does not specify which tests Thurston was waiting for. I assume its referring to blood-work. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:48, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are conspiracy theories within the scope of the topic? Snowman (talk) 14:02, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Provisional impression (3). I have edited parts of the article, so I have a conflict of interest in reviewing the article; nevertheless, I have tried to be objective. As far as I am aware, the article has a good summary of the available sources on medical issues. I have not thought about other parts of the article as carefully, including the important section on "Inconsistencies". I plan to move on and leave it to other reviewers to decide if the article can be promoted to FA status or not. Snowman (talk) 14:02, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Casliber[edit]

  • Comments - I read this on my phone while out and about today. The writing is good and prose is engaging. I couldn't see any prose clangers. Concerning the structure, it is generally good but I was unsure about how we have a chronological thread - and then an inconsistencies section, which I am wondering how it relates to para 2 of the After midnight section - if para 2 is assumed to be consensus as most likely version then it needs to be mentioned somewhere there....Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:43, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for taking a look, Casliber. Para 2 of the After midnight section is basically the "official" Hendrix family account, sourced to the most recent book published by Experience LLC and another high-quality source (Cross, 2005). How would I go about saying that it "is assumed to be consensus" while avoiding WP:OR? Also, TMK, a chronological thread need not continue throughout an entire article. The chronological portion ends at the conclusion of After midnight, I think that's fine, since the chronology ends with Hendrix's death. To riddle (read bog-down) the chronological portion of the article with mentions of the numerous inconsistencies would be a mistake, IMO. Any thoughts? GabeMc (talk|contribs) 20:51, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • This might sound like a dumb comment, but I guess you must have read that somewhere that it was the most likely version as otherwise how would you know it.....? Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:01, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm confused, please forgive me. Are you asking me to preface that particular paragraph with: "According to Jimi Hendrix: An Illustrated Experience (2007), by authors Janie L. Hendrix and John McDermott, and Room Full of Mirrors: A Biography of Jimi Hendrix (2005) by Charles R. Cross ..."? Can you clarify what it is about that particular paragraph that needs in-line attribution to the authors? I've intentionally avoided using Dannemann's book as an unreliable primary source, so what is sourced about her accounts comes only from reliable secondary sources. Can you please clarify what the issue is and how you suggest I remedy it? Thanks again for your insightful comments. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 02:10, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, my issue is this - this para presents a version as if it were fact, and then further down we have some issues with Dannemann's inconsistencies. It is a bit disconnected and we sorta get ambushed by this new bit of info. It needs some encompassing statement. Ideally it'd be something stating it was the consensus version of the most likely train of events...actually re-reading it it is not as big an issue as I thought initially. The bits note where she claimed X, adn the most definite bits are in. I am wondering then if some teaser about her accounts being inconsistent here would be good, but I can see reasons for not putting it in too. Based on that I'd say it's not a deal-breaker so ..I support on comprehensiveness and prose. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:26, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support an excellent read. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 12:39, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support But I have some questions.
  • Should it be "at" or "in" her flat?
  • Good catch. I think it should be "in", others may disagree. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:28, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Isn't "one of the most influential guitarists of the 1960s" a bit of an understatement? His own article states "he is widely considered one of the most influential electric guitarists in the history of popular music, and one of the most important musicians of the 20th century."
  • Of course, his significance could also be more clearly described in the first line of the introduction. Snowman (talk) 13:17, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Footnote 8 (about tuna) seems to be redundant, as the exact same text is also in the article itself.
  • Who is Phillip Harvey? He is not introduced, only named. FunkMonk (talk) 13:54, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is made clear in "Late afternoon and evening" that Harvey is the son of an English nobleman, which was previously introduced earlier, in "Morning and early afternoon" at the first mention of Harvey, but was moved as a response to Cassianto's above review (see "Morning and early afternoon"). GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:28, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi FunkMonk, yes the above is my doings I'm afraid. The nobleman information was a bit redundant in its former position, so I suggested it be moved to another section where his title had more relevance. His son was keen not to embarrass his highly influential father so the question would have been asked why?. Might I suggest an alternative introduction for his father if you want to press this point; failing that, it could be restored (it won't effect my support). I will leave it to you guys. -- CassiantoTalk 22:44, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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