The previous nomination failed mostly because of the heavy usage of unimportant quotes; I promised to make an effort to trim them, but took longer than I expected to find the time. While I've written FAs on other products of Britian's Got Talent, they saw little success in the real world; Smith has sold well, performed at prestigious events and broken several records. I look forward to reviews, and will do my best to address them quickly. Thanks, J Milburn (talk) 18:30, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Support from Jim Not an article type I would normally review, but well written, and I think this time round the number and nature of the quotes is acceptable. I ran together the first two sentences of the Faryl section, please revert if you're not happy with the change. Jimfbleak -talk to me? 07:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Spotchecks and images I checked half a dozen of the refs, no obvious problems. The two images have OTRS permissions and are clearly appropriate. I don't think you need her name in the caption to the first image, it's assumed that the subject of an image is the same as the article title unless otherwise stated. I don't like the positioning of the second image, on my browser it's forcing a subheading into the page Jimfbleak -talk to me? 07:13, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for your thoughts. There's not much I can do about the image; per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images#Location, I can't place it directly under a section heading, and if I shifted it to the next section, it would conflict with the "Faryl" subheading. J Milburn (talk) 16:08, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
SupportComments: I read this last time, rather liked it, made some comments which were properly addressed. I've just read it again, rather carefully, and needless to say I've managed to find a number of (mainly) prose issues for attention. Many of these, I have to say, are very minor, and some are more a question of choice:-
"number six" and "number 4" together in lead - inconsistent
"Smith was nominated for two Classical BRIT Awards in 2010 due to Faryl, and became the youngest artist to ever receive a double nomination." "Due to" is weak; "on account of" or "as a result of" would be stronger. And "to ever receive" should be "ever to receive". Personally I would reorganise the sentence along the following lines: "In 2010, on account of Faryl, Smith was nominated for two Classical BRIT Awards, and became the youngest artist ever to receive a double nomination".
"with the other semi-finalists"; She was a finalist, wasn't she? (Above: "She then performed in the final..."
She was. I believe all finalists and some semi-finalists appear on the tour, but I'm not certain about that particular year. Rephrased to "with other contestants". J Milburn (talk) 22:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
"While she was competing in Britain's Got Talent, Cowell arranged for Smith..." Switch it round: "While Smith was competing in Britain's Got Talent, Cowell arranged for her..."
"...Burnett. Burnett previously coached 2007 Britains Got Talent winner..." The "Burdett. Burdett" repetition should be avoided, and it needs to be "had previously coached". The sentences could be linked, thus: "...Burdett, who had previously..." etc
"her tutor, Sylvia Berryman"; Last we heard, she was receiving lessons from Yvie Burnett. Who is Berryman, and what is her "tutor" role?
"In November, it was announced that Smith would be performing on stage in Kettering with Sylvia Berryman, a vocal tutor who had worked with Smith prior to her appearance on Britain's Got Talent." J Milburn (talk) 22:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
"After signing with Universal, Smith performed at the Royal Albert Hall with Jenkins for the press". Can you give a little more detail? In what sense was this event "for the press"? A press benefit concert?
I've rephrased to "Smith signed the contract at the Royal Albert Hall, following which she performed with Katherine Jenkins." I was trying to get across that the press were invited to watch, but I think that's clear. J Milburn (talk) 22:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
"...Jenkins, who first met her when she won a competition in Wales." Ambiguous; who won the competition in Wales? Needs clarification.
"Faryl officially entered the charts at number six..." How does that square with, a couple of lines earlier. "On the day of the release the album was at the number one spot on the UK Albums Chart"?
I honestly don't know- I'm just going off what the sources say. I'm assuming that, though it was in the lead, it had dropped by the end of the week when the "official" list came out. J Milburn (talk) 22:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
You're probably right - that's the implication with the word "officially". Let's assume that. Brianboulton (talk) 01:11, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
"After her return from the US," - unnecessary; you've already said she's back
"In mid-November, Smith was awarded the best classical award at the 2009 Variety Club awards, the youngest ever recipient in the awards' 57-year history." What work was this award given for? Placing this sentence in the middle of a paragraph about the making of her second album could confuse readers.
I don't know- no-one mentions it, so I'm assuming it's not for any one particular work. However, I have moved it to the para about her awards- it breaks chronology, but I think it still makes sense. J Milburn (talk) 22:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
"her highlight of the year" would read better as "the highlight of her year". (Didn't I say this last time round?)
Her father noted that "because she is still so young, we don't want her doing complete shows on her own..." etc. This is a statement, not a casual observation, so "noted" is wrong. "Her father stated that" would be appropriate.
"Smith also opened the Serenata festival, Britain's first ever classical music festival." (my emphasis). So Britain had never had a classical music festival before? Come, come, there have been thousands upon thousands of classical music festivals in this country. I have been to dozens myself. You need a rather less all-embracing form of words.
Removed- I was actually going off what the source said there; "The Serenata festival, Britain's first ever classical music festival, is set against the backdrop of Dorset's Jurassic Coast, with tickets available now." I can only assume it's following a particular format not followed by other festivals. J Milburn (talk) 22:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
"She performed at further charitable events later in the year, including raising £2,700 for a hospice in Cransley and performing in aid of The Salvation Army in Portsmouth." Not grammatical as it stands. Probably best to rewrite it completely: "In further charitable events later in the year she raised £2,700 for a hospice in Cransley, and performed in aid of the Salvation Army in Portsmouth".
Thanks very much for your thoughts; I have replied inline. J Milburn (talk) 22:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for responding so promptly. I think this is a goer, and will support am supporting, subject to sources and images clearance. Brianboulton (talk) 01:11, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Brian, see above, I've done (limited) spotchecks and image reviews Jimfbleak -talk to me? 16:51, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Sources look okay, just a few stylistic comments Auree★ 19:15, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
A lot of overlinking in the newspaper, magazine and newswire names; I'd suggest only linking upon first usage
Each ref may reasonably be looked at in isolation, meaning that the concept of a "first" reference doesn't necessarily hold true. This has come up at FAC in the past, and I believe my way has been OKed, as it were. J Milburn (talk) 19:41, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Alright, guess it's up to editor choice. Auree★ 20:31, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Rather than using and manually italicizing the publisher field for newspaper names, you could use the newspaper parameter instead for convenience. (In fact, there are some references that make use of the newspaper field, and I suggest this be done consistently.) For magazines and such, the "work" parameter might be preferable instead
Will that make any difference to the reader? I'm not sure I'm prepared to spend 20 minutes doing something that will make next to no difference. J Milburn (talk) 19:41, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
No worries, it was more of a stylistic suggestion. Maybe something that could be useful in the future? Auree★ 20:31, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Definitely- it's actually something I became aware of in the middle of writing the article. I've been working on this for literally years, so I've learnt a lot from when I first started writing it! J Milburn (talk) 22:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I suggest using the agency parameter for newswires like Associated Press, Reuters, etc.
Ref 91: Instead of separating the newspaper and agency with a slash, you could simply use their respective parameters to notate the two separately. Auree★ 19:15, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Done the last. Thanks for your thoughts- I have replied inline. J Milburn (talk) 19:41, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Changes look good, thanks. I'll give the prose a look through later on, but with Brianboulton's excellent review and support I feel there won't be much for me to comment on. Auree★ 20:31, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
SupportComment on prose, sources and style. I can see a lot of work has gone into this article--and it has definitely payed off. Nicely done! Auree★ 06:25, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Lede looks good; I decided to be bold and give it a quick copy-edit. Feel free to revert if the changes were unhelpful.
In my edits, I removed the redundant "received" in "she received singing lessons from Yvie Burnett and received offers from various record labels", but I realize it doesn't much better. How do you feel about tweaking to "she took singing lessons from Yvie Burnett and received offers from various record labels" or something similar? Auree★ 21:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Changed to "she was tutored by singing coach Yvie Burnett and received offers from various record labels"- what do you think? J Milburn (talk) 22:17, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Looks good to me. Auree★ 23:10, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Should "Ave Maria" be in italics rather than quotations? Not too sure on this one.
It's a song name- I'm pretty sure it should be in speech marks. If she was performing an entire opera or something, then perhaps, but I don't think italics are needed. J Milburn (talk) 22:17, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I thought so, commented just to be sure. Auree★ 23:10, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
"it was again reported that it was hoped" – Could be reworded. Reported/hoped by whom?
I'm really scraping the bottom of the barrel for things to nit-pick about here. The article is well written, comprehensive and appropriately structured. I'll hold off on supporting for now pending on additional reviews from others and the fixes made, but at heart I feel this is ready to be promoted. Good work! Auree★ 21:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks very much for your kind words and the time you've taken to review this. J Milburn (talk) 22:17, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
All the changes look good. I'll look it over again tomorrow (as I'm out of significant editing time for today) and switch to support thereafter. (: Auree★ 23:10, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
One last comment: "Sampson eventually won the show as a result of the phone-in, with Signature second, and Johnston third." seems a bit oddly worded. I also made a few small changes again. This article seems ready to me now, so switching to support. Auree★ 06:25, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Comments: A very clear, thorough article. This seems to cover all aspects of a short career very clearly and looks comprehensive. No big problems, just a few nitpicks on prose. Several of them are fussy, and feel free to treat them with contempt and ignore them. And I confess to never having heard of Faryl Smith as I carefully avoid going anywhere near BGT! --Sarastro1 (talk) 22:11, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for your thoughts, they're appreciated: BGT and X Factor really are my guilty pleasures. I'm not even in to pop music, normally... Smith certainly isn't someone I'd choose to listen to! J Milburn (talk) 22:34, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
"who rose to fame after auditioning for the second series of the ITV television talent show Britain's Got Talent in 2008": Maybe specify she rose to fame when her audition was seen on TV? Otherwise it suggests that the act of auditioning made her famous. But feel free to ignore.
I don't want to overload the opening sentence. I could change it to "...after appearing on...", if you think that would be preferable? J Milburn (talk) 22:34, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
That would be my personal preference, but it's up to you. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
"She received praise throughout the competition, and although she was the favourite to win after the second round, she finished outside the top three in the live final on 31 May": Do the "she"s pile up here? Maybe omit the second to have "and although favourite to win after the second round, she finished…"
"and offers from various record labels": To sign for them, presumably?
Well, sort of. Technically, she wouldn't be able to sign with them until long after the competition, because of Cowell's notorious contracts. The press are very vague as to what the offers were, so I don't want to drift into too much detail- especially in the lead. J Milburn (talk) 22:34, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
"Her debut album, Faryl, was recorded in December 2008 and January 2009 and released in March 2009": Not sure about the repeated and. Maybe "Her debut album, Faryl, recorded in December 2008 and January 2009, was released in March 2009."
"She then went on to perform in the Britain's Got Talent Live Tour with other contestants, where she first performed her duet of "Walking in the Air" with Johnston." Suggests we should know what this duet is. Maybe just "a duet"? It would then make more sense to call it "her duet" in the "Record deal" section.
It would be fine to call it "her duet" or "the duet" when mentioning the recording, but just an observation, not a suggestion! --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
"While Smith was competing in Britain's Got Talent, Cowell arranged for her to receive free singing lessons…" Was this standard practice or just favouritism from Cowell?
It's questionable; that's why I've included it. It's meant to be a talent competition, but some of the favourites are being coached? I don't really want to go into the tabloid sensationalism, but I could make clearer that this wasn't made clear to the viewers. J Milburn (talk) 22:34, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
If it was a big deal in the tabloids or wherever, yes make it clear that it wasn't clear. (I think that makes sense!) Otherwise, leave it to the reader to make up their own mind. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
"the pair first met when Smith won a competition at the Llangollen International Musical Eisteddfod" I assume they met before BGT? A date would maybe help and if this was the case, I wonder if "the pair had met" would work better?
Added "had". I think this is a bit of publicity- they may have shook hands or something, but I bet Jenkins didn't remember Smith... J Milburn (talk) 22:34, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
"In January 2009 plans were released for Smith to perform with Placido Domingo. The idea was suggested by him." Two points: did she ever perform and if so when? If not, it should be specified why, if it is important enough to include. Second: the short sentence does not work all that well and could be combined with the first part: "In January 2009 plans were released for Smith to perform with Placido Domingo, an idea suggested by him." Or "In January 2009, Placido Domingo suggested Smith perform with him [and plans were released]."
Already rephrased. Sadly, nothing came of this and no paper ever mentioned it again- other reviewers have mentioned it. I could remove it, but that would leave the Charlotte Church stuff on its own, and I certainly want to keep that in. J Milburn (talk) 22:34, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I quite like Brian's idea above about "but was not realised". --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I notice that in several quotes, there is no punctuation after "said". Should something be there? ( I tend to use a colon, but I may be wrong.)
I think my way is acceptable. The use of commas in that way really doesn't work for me. J Milburn (talk) 22:34, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
"and also played for the club's Under-13 girls IX.": Just checking that "IX" should not be "XI". If it was nine-a-side, I've never seen it written as IX, but that could be my ignorance. --Sarastro1 (talk) 22:11, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Removed, it's not in the source. Not sure when that got in. Thanks again for your comments. J Milburn (talk) 22:34, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Support: There are still a couple of points under discussion, but none of them affect my support for an interesting article. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks very much for your comments. I'm going to go back and look at the sources about her duet and about the singing lessons; there may be a little more which is worth adding. I'll do this tomorrow afternoon/evening- I have an early train to catch... J Milburn (talk) 23:40, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Ok, I've added some reactions to the lessons, but have still been unable to find anything about the duet. She did duet with Jose Carreras, so I've added a mention of that. J Milburn (talk) 18:07, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.