Nominator(s): Wizardman 16:53, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm taking a break from writing on the great Cleveland Indians of 1948 to bring up an FAC on, well, the great Cleveland Indians of 1920, back when home runs were almost unheard of and pitchers always finished the games they started. Stan Coveleski was one of those pitchers. He won 215 games, was a Hall of Famer, and was Cleveland's second great pitcher, the first being Cy Young.
I believe this meets all FA criteria, and is a solid bio despite sources being tough to come by considering when he played; his major league debut was 100 years ago to the day! WizardmanOperation Big Bear 16:53, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Image review - File:Coveleskie.jpg should include date of original work rather than upload date. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:40, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
Washington Senators and New York Yankees: "The Senators lost the series in seven games, and he finished the series...". Redundant use of "series" here. I don't think "the series" needs to be there at all.
"pitching his last game of August 3". "of" → "on".Giants2008 (Talk) 00:23, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Support – Now that Sarastro has made a run through the article and assisted in cleaning it up further, I'm happy to support another nice baseball article for FA. Giants2008 (Talk) 01:04, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Comments: A really good piece of work. I have copy-edited this slightly (please revert if I've messed anything up), but not much. Seems comprehensive, and easy to understand for the non-specialist. The only problems are with the lead, which is quite a bit weaker than the rest of the article, and a few jargon things. Also, the linking is a slightly inconsistent. But happy to support once these issues are cleared up. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:45, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
"before staying in the majors for good after signing with the Indians in 1916": A little informal. Maybe "before remaining in the majors with the Indians from 1916". Or "but stayed in the majors after signing with the Indians in 1916".
The second paragraph of the lead is choppy (Covelski… He… He…) and needs a little work.
"but the e was later dropped because he never corrected anyone if his last name was incorrectly spelled.": This seems a little inconsequential for the lead.
I would have thought his status as a spitballer would warrant a mention in the first paragraph?
In the Philadelphia Athletics section, the win-loss thing is inconsistent. For some teams, it is spelt out as x games won, y games lost, etc, but for others it is given in the x-y form. Then in the rest of the article, it is in the x-y form.
A few things, such as spitball and ERA are linked in the lead, but not on their first mention in the main body. I assume this was accidental as other things linked in the lead are linked in the main body as well.
"While Connie Mack had an agreement with Spokane that Coveleski would be brought up after playing there for a time": Brought up sounds slightly jargony.
"Coveleski had lost 10 pounds due to illness during 1916, but recovered during the offseason, appeared in far better health and gained 20 pounds.": "appeared in far better health" does not really fit here. Maybe specify when he appeared healthier; i.e. presumably at the start of the next season?
"Coveleski was cemented as the ace of the staff": Jargon?
"Coveleski was grandfathered in…": A bit jargony, but probably OK it if it was linked.
"but on May 28, his wife died suddenly, and he was given some time off to mourn. Nearly three months later, he was the starting pitcher against the New York Yankees": This suggests he had those three months off. Maybe clarify this.
"While he did knock the Yankees from first place…": More jargon.
"he slowed down later on in the season": Ambiguous. This could refer to the pace of his pitching.
"he was considered the biggest surprise in baseball": A surprise in what sense? It can't really be his pitching, and if his presence made his team favourites, why would it be a surprise that he was successful?
"providing free pitching lessons to local youth": Youth singular (should be "a youth") or plural ("youths")?
"he dropped the e at the end of his name, as he never corrected anyone if his last name was incorrectly spelled.": Hmmm. I'm not sure of the best way to show a single letter, but does it perhaps need quotation marks? And this is telling two different stories; "he dropped" implies a deliberate choice, but the rest of the sentence suggests he simply accepted mis-spellings and the correct spelling just fell out of use.
"Coveleski was 216–142": A bit abrupt!
It is a little odd to read of some things that happened during his life after being told that he had died.
If possible, it would be good to have a little more on his technique. From what little I know of this, the spitball sounds fascinating and I was expecting to read more about how he used it. How difficult was he to face? Presumably he would be harder to face than other pitchers. Also, for non-baseballers, maybe a sentence or two which explained what a spitball was and why it was banned would be helpful.
There is a problem with the ISBN for the Sowell book. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:45, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
Fixes in progress, should be done tonight (I'll be rewriting the lead hence the slight delay). To answer comment two, yes he won three games himself, Indians won five in all (for a couple years the World Series was best-of-nine). WizardmanOperation Big Bear 15:58, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Now done. On anything I didn't fix, for the biggest surprise, i perhaps overly simplified the situation with Stan and Washington. Washington won the title in 1924, and brought in a few veteran pitchers who were off of other teams in hopes that one or two could be a quality pitcher. Coveleski happened to be that guy. They probably would have been favorites without Stan joining so I could reword. On the e, if my readings sounds right he did eventually just change his name to drop the e, but it was way after his career ended and long after he was regularly in the papers anyway. I'd have to re-research that for certainty though. I'll expand the spitball in the legacy a bit, but i added a bit more to the lead as well, which should help. WizardmanOperation Big Bear 03:55, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Leaning support: Changes look good, and I think it's just about there. I made a few more tweaks. I've left a few things unstruck which you indicate you are looking into. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:25, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
One minor issue in the revised lead: "Major League Baseballspitballpitcher" gives us three consecutive linked items which may be mistaken for one link. I would suggest separating out the links a little.
"Coveleski spent nine seasons with them, and won three games during the 1920 World Series.": As written, it sounds like this was his only achievement in those nine seasons.
"A starting pitcher, Coveleski specialized in throwing the spitball, a pitch where the ball is altered, generally with saliva.": I think if this is to be included, we should say why the ball was altered.
"Coveleski was considered the ace of the staff by being named the starter for Opening Day to begin the 1917 season": Not quite sure this works now. Maybe "Coveleski's status as the ace of the staff was demonstrated when he was named the starter for Opening Day of the 1917 season" .
"Coveleski's helped lead the Indians to win": I think either "helped the Indians to win" or "led the Indians to a win".
If the spitball stuff is in the lead, it does need to be in the main body; I assume from the above comment that this is in the pipeline.
"Biggest surprise" thing looks fine now. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:25, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Done. The spitball stuff is in the main body, in two different spots (the introduction and banning), though I could also add it to the last section if needed. WizardmanOperation Big Bear 04:31, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Support: (Copyediting disclaimer). Everything looks goods now. I think I personally would like a touch more on the spitball, perhaps more background and legacy, but this is not a huge issue and does not affect my support. Sarastro1 (talk) 08:31, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm not clear on what a "breaker boy" is. What did he "break"?
The first usage of ERA in the body is abbreviated without the full name given. It is given in the lead, though. My understanding is that the first usage in the body needs to be spelled out as well, no? Same issue with win-loss record, being it's linked in the lead but then referred to as "record" in its first usage in the body.
Same thing with American League in the Indians section. Actually it's spelled out and abbreviated at different times.
The A's didn't merely promote Coveleski from the minors, that implies they had a working agreement with Atlantic City. Per the SABR bio, Mack noticed Coveleski and signed him.
"the Athletics fell under new ownership in 1913 and lost control of him" the SABR bio has a little more on this.
Per MOS:IMAGELOCATION: "Avoid placing images on the left at the start of any section or subsection, because it makes it harder for readers to find the beginning of the text. Images on the left are best placed somewhere after the first paragraph."
Would help to link to seasons where it says things like "1918 season"
That one is now linked, but there's a whole bunch of other "19XX season" phrases that could be linked
"He pitched the first game against Hall of Famer Rube Marquard"... well he wasn't a Hall of Famer at the time. Meanwhile, later you say "against fellow spitballer Burleigh Grimes"... well Grimes is a HoFer too, so for consistency they should both be mentioned as "future HoFers" (or something similar) or not have it mentioned at all. I would've commented that you should mention Grimes was a spitballer if you hadn't.
At the start of the Senators section, it calls them the "Nationals". While I know that the team was sometimes referred to that way, it could confuse people with the current Washington Nationals, especially as they're called the Senators in the lead, infobox, and section header. You could explain that, or change it to "Senators".
His name by birth was "Coveleskie", and he didn't drop the "e" until after his retirement. However, this isn't mentioned anywhere until the retirement section, making it a bit confusing. It should be mentioned earlier that he was born "Coveleskie", I looked at that baseball card and wondered if they had misspelled his name by adding that last "e".
In the "Later life and legacy" section, I'd swap the first and second paragraph. It seems to come out of nowhere that he was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame, not to mention it's linked in the second paragraph and not the first.
I see some things in the SABR bio that aren't in the wiki article that I think should be included. For one, he was born "Stanislaus Anthony Kowalewski", that fits in with my earlier point. He hauled lumber for the miners, perhaps that's what a "breaker boy" is? Regarding his pitching style, he was a noted control artist who did not look to strike out a ton of batters. He threw overhand, but occasionally went into a sidearm delivery. Also, "Though he could be taciturn and ornery on days when he pitched, off the field Coveleski was generally considered friendly, though not particularly talkative."
In progress; I'll find some time in the next day to re-read the sabr bio and try to add some things in. I tried not to overuse it but by doing so I underused it. Also on the second note, it only needs to be linked on first mention regardless of where it is. Wizardman 15:28, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
Everything now done sans the last point, will do a bit more ce and expanding today. Wizardman 16:41, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
Now done. Added a bit extra about his name change earlier on so everything should finally tie together there, and added some SABR stuff. Wizardman 18:36, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
Think I'm almost ready to support. I'll re-read it tomorrow. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:58, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
I think everything's finally fixed now; added some more season links and took out the Hall of Famer notes for the two pitchers. Wizardman 15:14, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Support I added a minor qualification to the comment on the list from Bill James to reflect that it was a list of the all time greatest major league pitchers rather than the all time greatest pitchers as there were 2 or 3 Negro League pitchers that would likely rate above Coveleski in a comprehensive list. However, this is a truly wonderful article and I am happy to support it. --Rusty Cashman (talk) 19:13, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.