Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Red Dead Redemption 2 characters/archive1

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List of Red Dead Redemption 2 characters[edit]

List of Red Dead Redemption 2 characters (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): – Rhain 12:09, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because I believe it meets all aspects of the FL criteria, comprehensively covering the characters featured in Red Dead Redemption 2 and providing insight within the game and in a real context. The article provides a detailed overview of the characters' roles within the game, as well as the development process that was undertaken for the characters. I believe that the article is good to go all the way, and would appreciate your thoughts. – Rhain 12:09, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Comments from ChrisTheDude[edit]

  • Support - as mentioned, fantastic work, and very enjoyable to read -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:08, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Support Comments from Aoba47[edit]

  • I would recommend adding ALT text to the images.
  • For this part "native-American hunter Charles Smith", I believe "native" should be capitalized. Also, is the dash necessary? I have more commonly seen the phrase as "Native American", but that could just be from my own personal experiences. It is already done this way for this part "as well as Native American tribe members" in the lead.
  • I am a little confused by this descriptive phrase "widow-turned-gunslinger". Widow is not a job title so she is still a widow when she becomes a gunslinger. Just something about it is off to me.
  • I do not think that this image caption, "Some of the main cast members of the game: Roger Clark, Alex McKenna, and Rob Wiethoff.", should have a period as it is not a full/complete sentence.
  • For the "Creation and conception" section, I would use a character's full name whenever you mention them for the first time as this would be the first time they are mentioned in the body of the article. Examples are: "and each character's relationship with Arthur" and "in which Dutch is described as an equitable leader".
  • For this part "The actors sometimes improvised some additional lines, but mostly remained faithful to the script.", I do not think "sometimes" is necessary as it is already clear from the context of the overall sentence.
  • Since "Western" is wikilinked in the lead, I would do the same for this part "felt more appropriate for the narrative structure of a Western." in the body of the article for consistency.
  • I would clarify that the "first game" in this part "Some lines of dialogue from the first game" is Red Dead Redemption and wikilink it.
  • I noticed that the sections for individual characters have large uncited portions about their storylines. Is the game being used as a primary source/reference for this? I am pretty sure that it is okay, but I just wanted to make sure.
  • For this part "despite watching the Dollars Trilogy (1964–1966) he did not take much inspiration from", I believe there should be a comma before "he".
  • The lead says that Arthur Morgan is the lead character of the game. Is there a reason why he is second on the list instead of first?
  • I was a little confused by this sentence "John Marston (Rob Wiethoff) is the secondary protagonist and playable character of Red Dead Redemption 2.". The last paragraph of the "Creation and conception" section mentions how "the team decided that the player would control one character in Red Dead Redemption 2," so the mention of a secondary protagonist/playable character here took me by surprise as someone who has never played any of these games before.
  • I also agree with ChrisTheDude's comments above.

Great work with the list. I will do another read-through tomorrow to make sure that I caught everything, but this is everything that I noticed when reading it for the first time. I hope my comments are helpful and that you have a great weekend! Aoba47 (talk) 19:39, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Aoba47! I've made some edits based on your suggestions. Dutch is the leader of the gang and Davis is listed first in the credits, so I felt that listing him first was more suitable (despite Arthur being the lead playable character). As for the unsourced plot paragraphs, you're right in that the game is the primary reference for this. I've asked Chris above as well, but if you'd like sources for the in-game missions, let me know. – Rhain 23:55, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Thank you for the response! Your explanation for the listing order makes sense to me. I think that the sourcing should be okay as it currently stands since it is pretty consistent throughout the list as a whole. I will review the article momentarily and put up my second (and hopefully last) round of comments. Aoba47 (talk) 01:46, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
  • What is a "face camera"? It i used referenced in the part about motion capture in the "Creation and conception" section, but I am not sure how a "face camera" is different from other cameras.
  • For this sentence, "During the events of Red Dead Redemption, in 1911, John tracks down Bill, Javier, and Dutch, before being killed.", I do not think the comma between "Redemption" and "in" is necessary.
  • This may be a silly question, but would it be helpful to wikilink "reservation" to the Indian reservation article to help any unfamiliar readers?

Thank you for your patience with the review. I only have three relatively minor comments, and once those are addressed, I will be more than happy to support this. I will definitely have to check out these games sometime in the future. If you have the time, I would greatly appreciate any feedback for my current FAC. No worries if you do not have time or interest. Hope you are having a great day and/or night so far! Aoba47 (talk) 02:29, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, Aoba47! I've made some changes based on your suggestions. Let me know if you have any more concerns. I'll try to find time to check out your FAC sometime soon! – Rhain 23:33, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for addressing everything. I support this for promotion. Aoba47 (talk) 00:32, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Comments from Eurohunter[edit]

  • It doesn't looks like list and could be rather moved to "Red Dead Redemption 2 characters". Eurohunter (talk) 14:33, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
@Eurohunter: Check out other featured lists for video game characters. This is a common format. – Rhain 01:07, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Oppose from The Rambling Man[edit]

  • Oppose while the huge mass of white space as a result of the TOC remains in place. It looks terrible and undermines what is essentially a reasonable piece of work. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 11:38, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
@The Rambling Man: I have addressed this on the talk page. – Rhain 01:04, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
The Rambling Man Can you see my comments at the talk page as well? Thanks. ~~ CAPTAIN MEDUSAtalk 14:09, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
TOC is better now. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 10:52, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Oppose by David Fuchs[edit]

After having read through this list, I am inclined to argue that it fails criterion 3 of WP:WIAFL. This is 63KB article—10,000+ words—about the characters of a single video game. It's bigger than the article about the actual video game. There's no third-party sourcing that demonstrates that the characters of Red Dead are notable outside reception of the game's story in general, and it's stuffed full of plot that definition runs afoul of our fiction guidelines. It's an improper spinout from the main article. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 22:11, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

@David Fuchs: The list is larger (in word count) than the main game article because the latter has been split into several other articles due to its size. Would you be able to point me to the fiction guidelines to which you're referring? The plot descriptions here seem no different to what I have seen in the past. Similarly, the third-party sourcing here seems no different to that of other video game FLs, made up of mostly interviews with the developers/cast and reviews of the game/s, both of which demonstrate notability in this context. – Rhain 22:46, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
I'd have similar issues with excessive detail about those other subarticles, to be honest. I'm mostly referring to the Manual of Style's entries on fiction. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:16, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
@David Fuchs: Any suggestions on how to stick to the MoS a little better? For example, would changing the in-universe perspective ("Arthur retrieves Jack...") to a real-world format ("In the game's third chapter, Arthur retrieves Jack...") work better? – Rhain 23:09, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
@David Fuchs: Anything? – Rhain 14:18, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
@David Fuchs: Figured I'd try to get you one more time. Yours is the only oppose vote at present, so I'd like to hear your thoughts. – Rhain 03:52, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
Apologies for the delay. Realistically I think the changes you describe don't substantially address my core issues with the list meeting featured criteria or notability per WP:SAL on its own. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 17:34, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
@David Fuchs: Do you have any suggestions at all? – Rhain 04:23, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
I don't think this list should exist at all, so not really. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 12:42, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Comments from Spy-cicle[edit]

Superb list it is well referenced and uses a good range of media. The only thing I found that needs improving is the ciation to the book. It should really use the "cite book" template with something along these lines: Price, James, ed. (October 26, 2018). Red Dead Redemption 2: The Complete Official Guide — Collector's Edition. United States of America: Piggyback. ISBN 978-1911015567.. I will happily support this nomination once that is done.  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 20:17, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind words, Spy-cicle. I've replaced the book citation. Let me know if you have any other concerns. – Rhain 23:09, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
The only other thing I noticed was: "The secretive nature of Rockstar's development processes meant that the actors and the director were unsure of the future of the characters during production" Does this refer to one specific director or should it refer to multiple directors. If so I think some clarity may be needed and is also repeated under Creation and conception Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 20:36, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
@Spy-cicle: Good catch. I've clarified that Rod Edge was the director for the majority of production (though I don't feel as though that's important enough to include in the lead). Let me know if there's anything else! – Rhain 23:24, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
I could not spot anything else, Great job. I now Support this nomination. (Not required but I currently have a FLC on an accolades table for Marvel's Spider-Man your feedback would be appreciated especially in regards to how WP:SIZERULE is applied to video accolade tables).  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 18:15, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Comments from zmbro[edit]

Great list! Loved this game. Very well-written and should be an FL in no time. Few comments:

  • "Several characters reprise their roles from the 2010 game Red Dead Redemption, to which Red Dead Redemption 2 is a prequel." Idk why but this sentence reads weird to me. I'm not really sure how it'd be reworded though :\
  • Normally see bibliography below refs and not above them
  • I'd rename "notes" to something like "sources", as refs aren't really "notes"
  • I see a few refs that aren't archived.

That's it for me. Great job on this! – zmbro (talk) 19:15, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, zmbro! I've moved the bibliography and renamed "notes". All of the unarchived references are to YouTube interviews, which cannot be effectively archived. Let me know if you have any more thoughts. – Rhain 23:12, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Support – Good for me :-) – zmbro (talk) 03:58, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Comments from PresN[edit]

Flipping through this list, I see that a full 15(!) characters don't have a single reference, and another 8 have one from a guidebook in the middle of their text; many of the others are that plus a sourced one-liner. This seems to be because their sections are solely composed of plot summary. While not as vehement as Fuchs about it, this is emblematic of a structural problem with the list: the main purpose of a character list (or article) is to hold a description of the character along with as much real-world information (development/reception) as possible. To see 23 out of 42 characters in a list essentially have none of that is disquieting. A list like this needs to be based on reliable sources for the purpose of notability, not just verifiability- that is to say, it should contain only major characters, as shown by 3rd-party sources writing about them, not instead including every single named character that you could find a bit of backstory for. I'm inclined to oppose, but I'm going to open a discussion at WPVG for other opinions. --PresN 22:29, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Just to clarify, this is certainly not "every single named character"—such a list would end up in the hundreds—but a selection of the game's primary characters, including the 24 main gang members and the several supporting characters and antagonists. That's not to say that it couldn't be trimmed, though, and I'm not opposed to cutting some characters down to a table or prose if necessary. – Rhain 22:36, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
Are you seriously suggesting that there are 24 "main" characters in this game? I've never played it but that and 9(!) main antagonists seems like a stretch. PresN's point stands that many many sections are completely devoid of references establishing notability. I hope this page isn't being used as an island of lost plot sections. Axem Titanium (talk) 18:09, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Yes. The game's narrative revolves around the characters in the gang and their relationships. At a stretch, though, I'd argue that at least half of the gang could be defined as "main" characters (which is discouraged). The game is about 60 hours in length with six main chapters, so nine antagonists is accurate: chapter 2 is primarily Leviticus Cornwall; chapter 3 is Catherine Braithwaite and Leigh Gray; chapter 4 is Angelo Bronte; chapter 5 is Alberto Fussar; chapter 6 is Henry Favours; and throughout the whole narrative is Andrew Milton, Edgar Ross, and Colm O'Driscoll. They are each important to the game, though I wouldn't be opposed to shortening their sections to a table. – Rhain 03:35, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
If each chapter has its own antagonist, does that make all of them noteworthy antagonists or just temporary obstacles in the story? Summary style demands that you balance the desire to document every beat in the story with the requirement for a high level overview for a reader to understand. I'd start with going through and identifying which characters you can eliminate entirely without diminishing the reader's understanding of the story. Then trim back the ones that are necessary but consist too much of WP:JUSTPLOT. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:51, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Question and comments from czar[edit]

Arrived via that WT:VG thread
  1. Is there a reason why this article doesn't have a Reception section (like The Last of Us's and Uncharted's)? If the set of characters is independently notable from the game itself to warrant a summary style, ostensibly there would be enough coverage for such a section, right? czar 03:04, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
  2. The article reads very heavy on plot compared to other character FLCs. Converting the minor characters to a table, as in other articles, would be a forcing function to greatly reduce their length and focus their descriptions to that which can be referenced in reliable, secondary sources. While it isn't necessary to source plot information, adding a ref when available makes it clear that secondary sources considered the character's info significant enough to cover. czar 03:04, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
  3. Right now, I'm on the fence on the case of merging the article back into the parent. It's clear that there has been a fair amount of coverage on the game's cast, though much of it looks like primary source interviews, especially from interviews and otherwise unreliable sources. The summary style split should be predicated on whether the characters, as a set, have received significant coverage in multiple reliable, independent sources. Greatly reducing the plot summary to focus on the cast's real-world impact, via its sourcing, would make the case for why this set's added detail is too noteworthy to reduce and merge back into the parent article. czar 03:04, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments, czar. I've added a Reception section, cut down on some characters and plot information, added some more sources, and trimmed all supporting characters and antagonists to tables. Please let me know your thoughts when you can. – Rhain 03:11, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
Much improved! Are the table rows without citations not mentioned in other sources, or is it just your preference to use uncited plot summary for those? And how are the voice actors sourced—to the credits or a secondary source? With this Reception section, the summary style appears warranted and I'd err on the side of not merging back to the parent article. czar 03:19, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
@Czar: Thanks! They are sometimes mentioned in other sources, but the specific plot information is not discussed in those sources, so I've opted not to use them—if you think it might be best to source the missions within the game for some of these characters (as in The Last of Us's characters table), let me know. The actors are sourced to the credits, as no secondary source seems to list more than a few actors' names. – Rhain 03:34, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
Unless I'm mistaken, it does not appear that you've done any prose trimming in converting the Supporting characters and Antagonists sections into tables, like Czar asked. Axem Titanium (talk) 23:34, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
@Axem Titanium: You are mistaken; I trimmed back a few of the characters—most notably Eagle Flies, Rains Fall, and Leviticus Cornwall—and cut out two characters entirely. – Rhain 23:38, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
Fair enough; the diff display made it hard to notice the change. RE: Greatly reducing the plot summary to focus on the cast's real-world impact As for the "main" cast, a character list should primarily describe who the characters are, not what they do. I'm worried that this list is still too focused on giving a play by play of the plot. See also MOS:WAF for what I'm seeing as a continued problem. Axem Titanium (talk) 05:33, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

@Axem Titanium: Do you have any suggestions for describing "who the characters are, not what they do"? I will look into trimming the plot even further, but other suggestions would be useful. – Rhain 03:58, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

A useful way of thinking about it is why characters take the actions they do. Characters in a (good) story rarely do things for no reason; they usually do them because the writer(s) want to illustrate something about their character (a character trait) or help them achieve their goals. One way to trim would be to focus in only on the events that reveal something about the character's traits or goals and omit the events that they are only ancillarily involved in. Axem Titanium (talk) 04:16, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
@Axem Titanium: I've done some more trimming per your suggestion. – Rhain 05:19, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
It's a good change but I'm also not familiar with the source material so it's hard for me to evaluate. I think it's overall a lot tighter. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:00, 20 January 2020 (UTC)