Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of municipalities of the Netherlands/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Giants2008 10:02, 24 June 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of municipalities of the Netherlands[edit]

List of municipalities of the Netherlands (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): CRwikiCA talk 13:38, 22 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because in my opinion it meets the criteria and is of similar quality as other already featured lists of places. Note I have made significant improvements upgrading it from this to what it is now. CRwikiCA talk 13:38, 22 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Were you going to place any dates on founding in the list and/or the name origins?Coal town guy (talk) 14:03, 22 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Founding dates do generally not exist. Only for some merged municipalities there would be an actual date, most municipalities would have at most a rough estimation of when the spot was settled. Because the field would have different meanings for different municipalities I don't think it would be good to include it. Although the origin of the name of the town is interesting, I do not personally see it as important as other items that could be added. One of the other columns that I often see is maps, which I could add. I hadn't done it because loading ~500 images might be much, but if that would not be a problem for Wikipedia users, I would be happy to add those. CRwikiCA talk 15:31, 22 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Understood, a map image may be helpful, in fact, I would advise it. Taker a look at the Featured lists for some US Counties , and they do have a table structure which would allow you to use a map, with the sole purpose of showing a pinpooint location. I kmow it does sound US centric to suggest, but I was only looking at your statement about maps. Its been a few years since I have been to the NetherlandsCoal town guy (talk) 18:00, 22 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I added the maps, as you can see someone had already made nice graphical maps which were easy to include. It does add a nice touch to the tables. CRwikiCA talk 22:31, 22 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Well done. The only gap I see is maybe a few words about special municipalities, what they in comparison to a "regular" one. Addditionally, the intro paragraph, EXCELLENT. However, I would strongly suggest getting some refs as to the type of government in the Netherlands, maybe a quote from its constitution. My Dutch is rather piss poor BUT I could look for a German version. I had to do so for the FL candidate I had promoted (quote local constitution), learned alot in that process for certain. My roommate was from the Netherlands and was possibly my best German teacher I had. His American English has also vastly improved, thanks to our mutual desire to sound better when we spoke. He forbade me to learn any Dutch though....Coal town guy (talk) 12:29, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comments and constructive critism, it is the first time I am sending an article through a process like this. If I were to interpret your advice I would say to reference the relevant law texts as well in the parts were only the English-language Dutch government sites are referenced. Would this be what you mean? Most laws are available to read online, so it should be possible to find the relevant passages. Writing these articles does indeed teach you a lot, especially when you research a topic a bit. CRwikiCA talk 14:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To the point of quoting your specific constitution, yes, you are correct. IF you are able, not required, try to foind a book via google books that would have some interpretation of said document. BOTH are fine, but my experience has shown me that there is a sort of preferance for books if possibleCoal town guy (talk) 14:05, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I added some additional references to the constitution, the municipalities act and a book on municipal law. This should add some more context to the municipal status section. Do you have any other comments about the List-article? CRwikiCA talk 16:23, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, get some refs on the terms of office ( 4 years) and the functions of the municipalities. Its starting to look very nice. Also, ANY Etymology?? Additionally, you will needs refs on any and all population stats.Coal town guy (talk) 16:45, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The population stats are referenced in the column headers where applicable. Only the population density for the special municipalities is not referenced, because I could not find a source, so they are computed from the other two. Should I refer to a note that states that? The four year term is actually the constitutional reference and the translation in English and 3 additional languages is available on the linked official government website. A sentence (or two) about the etymology of the name gemeente is a good idea, I also realize that the term gemeente only occurs in the lead and not in the main text section. Thanks for you critical eye. CRwikiCA talk 17:37, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
EXCELLENT. Make a notation about the population, when possible. As to the government web site, that can be very good as when you ref the cite 100% certain to note the author of the web site as well as the last time it was updated. OR, try to find a pdf of it. As to special municipalities, try to add some more flesh to that, and by all means, yes, state the population stats are difficult, Try a local library, online population stats etc etc before saying, cant find it. FORGOT to ask, did this article get a peer review?Coal town guy (talk) 17:41, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Link for Constitution dated 2008, in English. Hey there this should be it. It provides the user a link to download the Netherlands Constitution in English. Its dated 2008, and is on the Netherlands Government web site.Coal town guy (talk) 17:51, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I included the English language link to the constitution reference. To answer your question, the article was not peer reviewed. Population stats can be difficult, although a lot of the Dutch stats are available online, one of the issues with the stats for the special municipalities is that the responsibility for those shifted when those were instated. Exactly what kind of additional information about the special municipalities would you like to see added? A lot of the government websites do not actually specify an author and in some cases not even an update date, but I will go through them and see what I can add for each reference. CRwikiCA talk 18:01, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I like the list as is, BUT, since I have gone through the FL list procedure before I am trying to anticipate what others will want as well. As to special municipalities, the best thing might be to say what makes them special per the Constitution. I will contact a fwew other editors to see what their feedback would be as well. The list you have is ambitious, and with a bit more fleshing to the municipalities, is a good one, certainly educationalCoal town guy (talk) 18:24, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The constitution does not describe the special municipalities, I checked the text to confirm this. They were instituted with the cited Act in 2010, which regulates their function, role and other things mentioned in the article. Because they are not enshrined in the constitution, their legal status might be a bit different, but I do not know to which detail the legal technicalities should be discussed in the article. CRwikiCA talk 19:29, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I added the note for the population density and added notes with the dates for some of the other data as well, because the last update of the sources does not always correspond with the date of the actual data. CRwikiCA talk 19:52, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately it does not seem like other people have taken an interest in reviewing this candidacy. CRwikiCA talk 13:12, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
STRONG Support. I believe this is an excellent list, there are some issues which others must comment on. BUT, I want to the first to say, you did a hell of a lot of work on this, good for you in at least making better data for this encyclopedia. I would suggest that you get to the Netherlands Portal and drum up some folks to lookCoal town guy (talk) 13:27, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 17:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • "regular municipalities (gemeenten) and 3 public bodies (special municipalities)" the first parenthesised italic text is Dutch, the second is not, this is inconsistent.
Fixed CRwikiCA talk 16:08, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Municipalities are the second-level administrative division" vs "Municipalities are the third tier of public administration" is confusing for me.
Fixed CRwikiCA talk 16:08, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • ".[9][10][5]" would prefer refs in numerical order.
Fixed CRwikiCA talk 16:08, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't think it's strictly necessary to link "neighbourhood".
Fixed CRwikiCA talk 16:08, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As of 2011" it's now 2013, is this still accurate?
Since I initially wrote it, the 2012 data is available and I updated the numbers accordingly. CRwikiCA talk 16:41, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the population col, you put commas after thousands (e.g. 1,101), in the population density col you don't (e.g. 6131).
I changed this to have consistent thousands separators in the number formatting. CRwikiCA talk 17:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man (talk) 16:16, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your valuable comments, I will address them in the coming days. CRwikiCA talk 16:08, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have addressed all comments above and improved the list accordingly. Please let me know if you would have any further suggestions. Thanks CRwikiCA talk 17:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support This would make a fine featured list. Easy navigation with the sortable table and maps of the locations at the side.
Resolved comments from Raykyogrou0 (Talk) 21:02, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • "Municipalities are the second-level administrative division in the Netherlands, they are subdivisions of their respective provinces." --> "Municipalities are second-level administrative divisions in the Netherlands and are subdivisions of their respective provinces."
  • "Municipalities are the second-level administrative division,..." is repeated in the second section.
  • "...public services, among others these are land-use planning,..." --> "...public services, which include land-use planning,..."
  • "local roads..." what? Management, maintenance?
  • "...Netherlands Antilles in 2010 three special municipalities (officially public bodies) were formed, these municipalities function the same as regular municipalities." --> "...Netherlands Antilles in 2010, three special municipalities (officially public bodies) were formed. These municipalities function the same as regular municipalities and are grouped together as the Caribbean Netherlands and are not part of a province."
  • "...distributed freely between mayor and aldermen, the exact portfolio for each person..." --> "distributed freely between mayor and aldermen. The exact portfolio for each person..."
  • "The Municipalities Act of 1851, which was written by prime minister Thorbecke,..." --> "The Municipalities Act of 1851, written by prime minister Thorbecke,..."
  • "Throughout the years less populous municipalities have been merged, they were either added to the larger neighbouring cities or multiple smaller municipalities merged into a larger new municipality with a new name." --> "Throughout the years, less populous municipalities have been merged. They were either added to larger neighbouring cities or multiple smaller municipalities were merged into a larger municipality with a new name."
  • "In 1850 there were 1,209 municipalities, this decreased to 1,121 in 1900, 1,015 in 1950 and 537 in 2000." Is this sentence absolutely necessary? The tiny table at the side already has all the information.
  • "During this time multiple mergers occurred simultaneously in large parts of individual provinces, the municipal boundaries were basically redrawn in these regions." --> "During this time, multiple mergers occurred simultaneously in large parts of individual provinces; the municipal boundaries were basically redrawn in these regions."
  • "In the 19th and large parts of the 20th century, municipal mergers were forced by the central government."
  • "...the decision making process." --> ""...the decision-making process."
  • "...an increasing workload, because more public services..." --> "...an increasing workload because more public services..."
  • "This right and the submunicipalities themselves will cease to exist in the near future." Explain why.
  • "For administrative use by municipalities themselves and data..."
  • "As of 2012 the municipalities in the Netherlands were subdivided into 2,621 districts and 11,896 neighbourhoods." --> "As of 2012, the municipalities in the Netherlands are subdivided into 2,621 districts and 11,896 neighbourhoods."Raykyogrou0 (Talk) 16:30, 12 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your criticism, I tried to address all your concerns. Let me know if you would have any additional concerns or would like to see them handled differently. CRwikiCA talk 18:00, 12 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It looks very good. Just one more:
  • "As a second level administrative division municipalities are the the third tier of public..." --> "As a second level administrative division, municipalities are the the third tier of public..." Raykyogrou0 (Talk) 21:46, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done CRwikiCA talk 21:08, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 22:41, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
;Comments
  • From what I can see, het Bildt is the only name not to begin with a capital letter – is this standard?
Good eyes, as far as I know this is the exception, even their municipal website (and logo) maintains this. CRwikiCA talk 21:21, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "List of municipalities" header doesn't need the first two words.
Fixed CRwikiCA talk 21:21, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed CRwikiCA talk 21:21, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Other than that, it looks good. Incidentally, I've got my own FLC: List of UK Official Download Chart number-one singles from the 2000s. If you have the time, I welcome any comments on it. Thanks very much! A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 00:00, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your criticism, I tried to repay the favour, but your FL was already closed when I got to it. I addressed your points under each heading. CRwikiCA talk 21:21, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The table currently doesn't meet MOS:DTT – adding !scope=row| before the name of the each municipality would fix that.
The rows are all preceded by ! scope="row" style="background-color:transparent"|. CRwikiCA talk 21:21, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My mistake! A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 22:41, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Municipalities beginning with either "De" or "Den" are inititally sorted under their second word, but, when sorted by name, they jump up to D. Using something like Template:Sort or Template:Sortname would correct this.
This is a good point, one of the questions is what is desirable. Sorting by the name part of it is the Dutch way of sorting, by the first letter overall is the English way. I think the English method might be preferable for users once they start sorting, but I can change it if you disagree. CRwikiCA talk 21:21, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Replacing, say, [[De Bilt]] with something like {{Sortname|De|Bilt}} would keep the names in the same place when they sort. A Thousand Doors (talk | contribs) 22:41, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I implemented the sortname for these cases. CRwikiCA talk 14:12, 15 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - This list looks incredible! Really interesting to read, great work! Some things I would have said have been pointed out above.  — AARON • TALK 13:38, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Giants2008 (Talk) 01:23, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • For an FL, a lead should really be longer than one smallish paragraph. There's more than enough material in the next section that can be summarized in another paragraph, at least.
  • Municipal status: "lead to the disappearance of small municipalities." "lead" → "led"?
  • "This policy changed in the end of the 20th century, local support for the merger is now a large part of the decision-making process." Minor, but the comma should probably be a semi-colon instead. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:26, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, and I still saw the first two words of the List of municipalities header. Looks like you might have missed that in your earlier edits. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:27, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your criticism. I changed and expanded the lead, let me know what you think about the expanded version. I changed the other 2 points. The section title was updated, but it sometimes takes a few minutes before it gets changed on the Wikipedia servers because of the size of the list, so your browser might not have had the latest version at that point. CRwikiCA talk 21:57, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the new paragraph I see "Amsterdam is has highest population". This would be better as "Amsterdam has the highest population". Giants2008 (Talk) 01:23, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
FixedCRwikiCA talk 13:37, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Still doesn't look right without the "the" that I recommended be included. Giants2008 (Talk) 20:08, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed now, I was too sloppy the first time around... CRwikiCA talk 23:03, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Closing note: This candidate has been successful, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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