Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Royal Coat of Arms of the Kingdom of Greece

Royal Coat of Arms of the Kingdom of Greece[edit]

Reason: High quality vector image
Articles in which this image appears: Coat of arms of the Kingdom of Greece, Template:Greek Royal Family
Creator: Sodacan

Support as nominator --Sodacan (talk) 17:45, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: There seem to be numerous differences between this and the coat of arms shown in the cited source,[1] which I can't see good reasons for. Most glaringly, the supporters seem to have transformed from curiously garbed but genial, garlanded, grey-haired gentlemen into scowling troglodytes. The faces in this version seem closer to the source. Sorry, I'm sure a lot of work has gone into the nominated image, but it doesn't seem accurate to me. -- Avenue (talk) 22:14, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A coat of arms of the same blason does not always appear exactly the same, E.g. [2], [3], and [4]: all essentially the same image, representing the same institution, but with great artistic differences. The troglodytes are supposed to be Hercules wearing the skin of the Nemean lion (reading the caption could have helped with that one). BTW the other version's supporters are identical basic template as this version, but with a new beard and hair, I would know I drew most of that version as well. Sodacan (talk) 22:34, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I know that there can be artistic differences, but I'd think we'd want to follow the official version reasonably closely. Of the three UK examples you show, the two from official sources seem very similar to me. Having said that, after looking around I see the Greek government has not been as consistent as I would have expected, e.g. the coat of arms on this document is very different from the 1864-1936 version in the Royal House of Greece source, and much more so than your version. So I have struck my opposition above for now. I still have reservations about the changes, especially to the supporters and the crown. For instance, the Royal House of Greece source shows a simple Greek cross on top of the crown, but yours is more ornate, similar to a cross crosslet, which I gather has evangelical connotations. Was this simply an artistic choice, or did you intend the change to carry some meaning? -- Avenue (talk) 00:53, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, my personal opinion is that I have been as accurate, as I can be as a heraldic artist. Heraldry does not specify the look on faces or the flowing folds of a curiously floating mantle. It does however specify colours (tinctures) and symbols (charges), of which I believed, is almost if not entirely accurate, representative and encyclopaedic. What I have done was to take artistic licenses where it does not matter. If I was copying the Coca-Cola logo, where absolute conformity is key, then I of course would not make any deliberate differences. The issue of the crown is definitely worthy of discussion, and this has been done at length at my talk page at Wiki Commons, but the issue, for me anyway, has been settled. I will reiterate and say that I have made the coat of arms as accurate heraldically as I can, If I wanted a copy then I would have uploaded it under fair use, and although I have taken artistic licenses, they are definitely not akin to an artistic choice or an intension to graphically espouse a POV! I would not dare upload an artwork that I have painstakingly created unto Wikipedia, if I knew that it was inaccurate and is of no benefit whatsoever. Believe me before I create any of my artwork I do a lot of research, finding as many images as I can on the internet and books, it takes weeks if not months, to source them all here would be quite insane, and believe me none of them are exactly the same (well, they're not really meant to be). Sodacan (talk) 01:43, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the link to your earlier discussions. I haven't gone through it all yet, but it has already set my mind at rest about the cross. I didn't mean to suggest you were trying to espouse a POV in your work; I just wanted to make sure one had not slipped in accidentally. My question was probably poorly worded - I'm sorry. -- Avenue (talk) 02:40, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Regardless of the issue above, the licensing is questionable. This image does not belong to you- I'm assuming that you're assuming it public domain, but, if so, some evidence and a public domain template would be nice. J Milburn (talk) 23:01, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just added an anonymous author tag, Greek copy write laws are in conformity with the EU: 70 years after the work has been available to the public and the author's identity is unknown, then it is considered within the public domain. This version of the coat of arms was created in 1936, one year after the return of King George II from exile and the restoration of the monarchy. Sodacan (talk) 23:11, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the Royal House of Greece source shows the 1936 version as identical to the previous version (from 1863), as far as I can see, apart from the devices within the shield. -- Avenue (talk) 00:53, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: [I'm retired from editing Wikipedia, but I'll make this exception] 1) Regarding the last comment about "the devices within the shield": these devices is the shield of the coat of arms of the Kingdom of Denmark, as it was when King George I of Greece (Prince Vilhelm (William) of Denmark) was installed as King of Greece. That insignia was designed in 1819, and approved by royal decree by King Frederick VI of Denmark in 1819 or 1820, so no copyright issue there. 2) The crown: the crown Sodacan uses is the same drawing which he uses for his illustrations of various coats of arms of Denmark. He has stated on his talk page, why he believes that the Greek royals would have used a drawing they already knew, i.e. the Danish equivalent. The actual drawing used in Denmark is a heraldic construct based on the crown of King Christian V of Denmark (Compare the physical crown of Denmark with the top image of this 18th century copy of an official painting of the various heraldic crowns). The way Sodacan portrays the crown corresponds rather closely to the way it has been rendered in official Danish images since 1819, cf: current official drawings of the Danish arms and crown and the current official drawing of the insignia of the Danish monarch. 3) The supporters in the Greek arms are indeed meant to represent Hercules, identified by the skin of the Nemean Lion, that he wears as clothing. The inspiration for this element is the "vildmænd" (wild men / savages) from the Danish arms. 4) Avenue, you wish that heraldic drawings on Wikipedia should follow the original official drawings very closely. I hold the same position, however, consensus on this project has rejected this position. In a normal paper encyclopedia, using the official drawing is not a problem, as such illustrations would fall under a fair use-clause or similar law. However, Wikipedia's requirements for "free-for-all downstream use" makes this impossible for heraldic illustrations from almost the entire EU, as EU copyright law treats heraldic drawings like all other drawings; i.e. all drawings are proteced by copyright until 70 years have passed following the artist's death. A "work for hire" clause applies in the US, but not in the EU. This is the reason why a ton of heraldic illustrations have previously been deleted on Wikipedia, precisely because they were found to resemble the official drawings too closely, which meant that they were deemed to be copyright violations. Since the fair-use option has been rejected repeatedly for this particular material, the only option left is to design a new heraldic illustration based on the official's written description, so the end-result is a new illustration where copyright belongs only to the Wikipedian that drew it. This is what Sodacan is doing here. Another example is Lokal Profil who is doing the same for the Swedish material, as it is covered by the same legal situation as the Greek material. It would have been ideal to use an official Greek drawing as illustration, however, it is extremely unlikely that any such drawing should exist which would live up to Wikipedia's definition of a free work, as the artist behind such a drawing must have died no later than 1939, in order to stay clear of the 70 year p.m.a. rule. This is just unlikely, as this insignia was designed in 1936. Unless Wikipedia changes its rules for this kind of material, we have to go with user-generated renderings of heraldic illustrations for those juristictions where laws don't explicitly render official insignia to be PD. This problem exists for more than 3/4 of all countries in the EU, including Greece. Valentinian ^{T / C} 08:12, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your long post. I'm sorry you've had to come out of retirement to remedy my cluelessness. The consensus makes sense now that you've explained it, and I have clearly been judging Sodacan's work by the wrong criteria. I'll strike the rest of of my original comment, and come back to this tomorrow. --Avenue (talk) 10:54, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. You know, knowledge is something given to us by other people, in order that we may pass it on to other people. :) Btw, just wanting to settle two issues in my post as I'd hate to be the cause of confusion: 1) when I wrote that the Danish royal crown is a heraldic construct, in fact, I don't believe that it gained this status deliberately. The reason why the "real deal" isn't simply depicted, seems to be that the official drawing from 1819 is imperfect in its depiction of the crown - likely because physical access to the crown was extremely limited at the time - but almost all subsequent drawings of the Danish arms are to some measure based on the official 1819 drawing with the imperfect crown. So one might say, that Sodacan's crown imitates something that was created by accident in 1819 [still no copyright problems, though]. 2) A few EU countries in fact legally place renderings of all official coats of arms as copyright-exempt, but to my knowledge, this only applies in Germany, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Romania. For these few jurisdictions, one can use any official heraldic drawing on Wikipedia without problems, but this is alas not the case for all other jurisdictions in the EU. Valentinian ^{T / C} 22:23, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support after reading the discussions and looking at the image I must say this is quite an amazing piece of work! Thank you. --Dschwen 15:40, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support--Mbz1 (talk) 11:55, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, high quality, appealing rendition. --Avenue (talk) 20:41, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - good rendition, also surprisingly detailed. Connormah (talk | contribs) 22:05, 19 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Promoted File:Royal Coat of Arms of Greece.svg --Makeemlighter (talk) 21:40, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]