Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2010 April 29

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April 29[edit]

Category:Converts to atheism from Eastern Orthodoxy[edit]

"Converting" to atheism is non-sensical as atheism is by definition not a religion. How do you convert to something that is null? This category should be redefined or deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cthugha (talkcontribs)

Category:Converts to atheism from Eastern Orthodoxy and similar categories are part of a category structure at Category:Converts to atheism. Other editors have expressed your concern at Category talk:Converts to atheism from Eastern Orthodoxy, Category talk:Converts to atheism from Islam and Category talk:Converts to atheism from Protestantism. But the proper place to start a discussion with mandate to delete or rename is Wikipedia:Categories for discussion. The "Converts to atheism" issue has not been discussed there. The current names were decided at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 September 10#Religious converts clean-up, but that was in another discussion where nobody commented on atheism. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:39, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Converting just means change in general. I can convert my dollars into euros. I can convert my car from a closed top to an open top. I can convert my couch into a bed. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion. One who converts to atheism from a religion just means that the have changed their belief system from one to another. --Jayron32 03:19, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
I question the claim that atheism is null. A statistical analysis of what atheists believe would probably find some clusterings of opinions similar to the clusterings one finds in any large religion, in the sense that atheists are more likely to agree with fellow atheists than with, say, evangelical Christians or Muslims. For example, you might find atheists are as unlikely to oppose gay marriage as evangelical christians are unlikely to support it. You might find some exceptional atheists who oppose gay marriage, and evangelicals who support it, but those stances would be uncharacteristic of their respective belief systems. And even if atheism is null, how does that prevent someone from converting to it? A religious person can convert to atheism in the same way that a smoker can convert to non-smoking or a drunk can convert to teetotalism. A person with hair can convert to being bald. A promiscuous person can convert to celibacy, although that does tend to make them less interesting. --Teratornis (talk) 03:27, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Yes, you might find that there is a statistical grouping that atheists tend to share but it has nothing to do with their lack of belief in religion, though it probably has much to do with underlying traits that would tend to promote atheism, just as those of a certain religious bent may tend to share certain non-religious traits. This has no bearing on the "null" issue because the context is belief in a religion verses lack of belief in a religion. The fact that atheists may share traits is not a religious matter, while "null" here is being used only as to religious matters. Atheism can be well described as a "null" because it is a word that defines an absence, only necessary to exist as a word at all in a world where most people are religious, so the need to distinguish those who are not is needed. Atheism is "null" because not believing in any religion is only a religion, as the old saying goes, if not collecting stamps is a hobby. As for the idea that "converting" (can) just means change in general, that ignores the manner in which the word is being used. Specifically, when speaking of "converts to atheism from Eastern Orthodoxy," we are clearly invoking the word's distinct, dictionary-defined sense of "chang[ing] from one religion... to another [religion]." So, while it is true that convert/ing/ion does have a generic sense, when we use it in the same form as we would for "converts from Islam to Judaism," perforce we invoke the specific religious conversion sense of the word, and that use is an egregious malapropism because atheism is not a religion.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 05:18, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Adding info...[edit]

I'm not sure really how to add info to a page, especially so it looks right and professional... hopefully someone who KNOWS how to do it right can update the info/discography for Lady Antebellum's Need You Now album! There is one additional BONUS song, available ONLY to those individuals who purchase the Need You Now album directly from The song is Bottle Up Lightning, and it's 4:05 in length, but I'm not sure of the other info, like who wrote it, etc! I think that info should be added to their page, especially since it's an awesome song!! That way people are aware the song is out there! Thanks!

If you have a reliable, independent source for that information (i.e. not an email or a tweet or a Facebook/MySpace (or other social network) announcement, etc - ideally a national newspaper/magazine) then you can add the information yourself (just add the information followed by <ref>Source information</ref>). If there are no reliable sources, then the information should not be added. -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 07:39, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't receive a new password[edit]

I've tried getting a new password twice and it never comes.

You must have associated an e-mail address with your account in Special:Preferences, and you must also have access to that address. If you did not associate an address and/or do not have access to the address, there is nothing we can do. You will have to create a new account. Check your spam folder, as well. Xenon54 / talk / 01:29, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
If you told us what your user name is, we would be able to look into this a bit further. As Xenon54 says, if you have no email address associated with your account, you are out of luck! If your account only has a few edits, then I would not worry about it - just create a new one; if you have a lot of edits, then let us know the account name and someone here can try resetting your password. Otherwise, there really is nothing that anyone can do. -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 07:42, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Creating userboxes[edit]

Hello, I'm trying to create the userbox User:Wolfdog406/UBX/freechina and it takes me to a "The page cannot be found" page. Can you help?


Wolfdog406 (talk) 02:33, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Jimbo on Userboxes. --Teratornis (talk) 03:31, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
I see you have created User:Wolfdog406/UBX/freechina. For the guideline, see Wikipedia:Userboxes and note the mention of divisive userboxes. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:00, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Ref syntax problem[edit]

There's a problem with ref names on the Kootenay River article I am working on. I entered <ref name="krnm"/> but it says "All references without content must have a ref name" in large red letters. How could I fix this? Shannontalk contribs 03:24, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

You had funny quote characters that were breaking the ref tag. --Teratornis (talk) 03:37, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Shippen Street (Weehawken) infobox formatting[edit]

I've been working on the article above, and I believe that the infobox is defaulted to use an image based on the road number or something. Anyway, I've seen the exact same infobox used on similar road articles and there are no images or code on the article page. Can someone help me out? Thank you :) Theornamentalist (talk) 04:12, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

See Template:Infobox road. What you need to do is to remove all references to the political entity of the road, such as state or county. The template defaults to placing a shield for the state route number/national route number or whatever based on what you enter in State/Province/County fields. If you leave all of those blank, it won't try to put a picture in. I fixed the problem here: See this diff. --Jayron32 04:22, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Thank you :) Theornamentalist (talk) 04:24, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

hyphenated name; redirect??[edit]

A page exists for "The Print Collector's Quarterly" ie no hyphen vs. "The Print-Collector's Quarterly"

  • the page discusses the use (and non-use) of the hyphen.

The hyphenated name is listed on Wikipedia:WikiProject Academic Journals/Journals cited by Wikipedia/P24 at

but there is no Wiki page for the hyphenated name.

  • A search of Wikipedia shows more entries WITHOUT the hyphen
  • The journal itself started with a hyphen and dropped it.
  • The majority of hits on Google do not use the hyphen.

It seems somewhat arbitrary to decide whether the page should have hyphen or not.

On Google using the hyphen or not seems to bring up both BUT on Wikipedia the hyphen seems to be critical in getting one or the other.

Is this where a redirect comes in

  • if so, which way does it go?

934C (talk)

  • Its probably a bit arbitrary, but if the most recent issues of the Journal don't use the hyphen, the article should be located at the unhyphenated name, but you should create a redirect from the hyphenated name to the unhyphenated one. --Jayron32 04:47, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
There should definitely be a redirect at the title not used by the article. I have redirected The Print-Collector’s Quarterly. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:49, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Route diagram formatting and differences[edit]

Some queries regarding the formatting of route diagrams. As you can see on the template HERE, this route diagram is aligned very closely to the left of the box, just as I intended. But a problem arises once I transclude this diagram in to a railway information box, as visible HERE. As you can see, the route diagram is no longer aligned close to the left of the box, rather it sits a good distance in from the box.

My initial thought was that this was because of the width of the info box. I tried adjusting this, but it needs to be set at 25em for the formatting in the route diagram to stay presentable. If I adjust this width any lower than 25em, then the route diagram formatting is lost and the diagram is then disjointed as it still stays that same, further distance away from the left of the box.

My queries are: Why is the route diagram not aligning close to the left of the box? And: Why will it not align properly even when I adjust the overall width of the info box in which the diagram has been transcluded? Can I get the transcluded version to align to the left of the box like it is meant to, as shown in the template? I'm trying to achieve this in order to get the overall width of the info box and route diagram down to about 20em so as it does not take over a large portion of the page.

Question about over-sighted Articles (those with removed revisions)[edit]

Where do I find logs showing Oversight actions on an article such as on Wikipedia:Help desk? They don't show up in normal logs only things such as; A changed revision visibility of B: removed content, username for 1 revision ‎ (User edited while logged-out, revealing IP) show up in logs. Thanks Paul2387 07:34, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

There is no log generally available of such actions - sometimes, such a log would identify information which has been oversighted! However if you look at the history of a page, oversight actions are shown as grey, crossed out entries, as per this extract from this page's history:
  • 14:54, 28 April 2010 Mysdaao (talk | contribs | block) (61,930 bytes) (→Losing my home: Removed contact details, we are not associated with bank or mortgage company)
  • 14:48, 28 April 2010 Mysdaao (talk | contribs | block) (→Losing my home: Putting new question in separate section and replying, [[Help:Logging in])
  • 14:34, 28 April 2010 (talk | block)
  • 14:32, 28 April 2010 (talk | block) (→Losing my home: new section)
  • 13:36, 28 April 2010 Theurgist (talk | contribs | block) (59,359 bytes) (I forgot to add a section title, sorry) (undo)
You will find that you can't look at (or compare diffs for) those entries -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 07:48, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
In the 'history' section of articles, there is a link that says View all logs for this page. Clicking that will show you oversight actions. –Turian (talk) 10:25, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
There are two types of oversight. "View logs for this page" only shows one of them and it's not the one shown by PhantomSteve. As an administrator, I can see the diffs in your log link but not those in PhantomSteve's post [1]. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:41, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

I have been warned that I am vandalising a site by user Bidgee[edit]

Griffith Central is a shopping centre in Griffith NSW. I have added some true and relevant information regarding who has been responsible for leasing the centre. A user called Bidgee keeps changing my additions and has now warned me that I must stop vandalising the site. This doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the site. Please advise. thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 11:06, 29 April 2010

This appears to be related to edits by Tomtom33 (talk · contribs) at Griffith Central. Clicking the "history" tab at the top of the article shows that Bidgee says that your edits are not sourced. Please see WP:Verifiability which indicates that material needs to have a reference that verifies the information. If you could add a URL linking to an article in a reliable source that verifies the information, and if the information is useful for the article, someone will format the link to show a proper reference. However, not every detail needs to be added to an article. The standard procedure would be to visit the article's talk page (Talk:Griffith Central) and click "new section" at the top. Then enter a brief topic title and an outline of what you want to add, then ask for opinions. Add four tildes on the last line of your comment for a signature. Johnuniq (talk) 11:38, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict)My advice would be to find reliable and independent sources for the information which you are trying to add. If you have these, then add the information followed by <ref>Source information here</ref>. If you do not have reliable sources for the information (allowing it to be verified), then do not add the information. Good sources tend to be significant coverage in newspapers or nationally-published magazines (note that I said significant - a minor mention would not be enough). -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 11:39, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Struggling with gallery formatting[edit]

Hi, I am struggling with the gallery on this article. It's missing the tags to end the gallery section, so the References and external links sections are not displaying properly. Can anyone help? Chevymontecarlo. 12:11, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

I have fixed it by adding the closing tag </gallery>. For more help, please see Wikipedia:Gallery tag. --Mysdaao talk 12:24, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

UbiPetz--How to unlock the code?[edit]

I just got thie UbiPetz Dogz Pack--Instructions are to go to to unlock this Petz with the Code No on the bottom of this petz--in order to get theSecret Passcode. the code is 316034--I don't know what to do--Does this toy do aanything once I get the passwordI need instructions--Can anyone help?


Hello. I suspect, based on your question, that you found one of our roughly three million articles, and thought that we were directly affiliated in some way with that subject. Please note that you are at Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and this page is a help desk for asking questions related to using the encyclopedia. Thus, we have no inside track on the subject of your question. You can, however, search our vast catalogue of articles by typing a subject into the search field on the left hand side of your screen. If you cannot find what you are looking for, we have a reference desk, divided into various subject areas, where asking knowledge questions is welcome. Best of luck. TNXMan 15:27, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Starting an article with the?[edit]

There are many Cajun bands that will have the in front of them always: The red stick ramblers, the sundown playboys, the lawtell playboys, the evangeline playboys, the lost bayou ramblers, etc. Should the articles have The in them? The Lost Bayou Ramblers vs. Pine Leaf Boys. Thank youMichael miceli (talk) 15:51, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

The Manual of Style says here: Do not use a, an, or the as the first word (Economy of the Second Empire, not The economy of the Second Empire), unless by convention it is an inseparable part of a name (The Hague). -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 15:58, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
I think "The" can be counted as "inseparable" in some situations, but this would have to be separately determined for each article. For example, The Cult, The Clash, The Doors, The Who, and The Beatles are all titled with "The" because that is normally how people refer to the bands. Conversely, though a certain band is sometimes called "The Faces" or "Rod Stewart and the Faces", our article on the band is simply titled Faces, because that is the most common usage. There really isn't (or shouldn't be) a blanket rule on "the", because usage can and does change from band to band. Xenon54 / talk / 19:42, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
And that's also why redirects were invented. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:52, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
And then there's the The The article. --Teratornis (talk) 02:04, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Point of Light = Notable?[edit]

I'm interested in opinions as to whether a group or person being declared a "daily point of light" by Former U.S. President George H.W. Bush's (aka Bush Sr.) "Points of Light" foundation would make it notable and iffor a group already notable, would be appropriate to add.Naraht (talk) 16:37, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

It's probably not enough to make something notable by itself, but would probably warrant mentioning in a larger article about the subject. TNXMan 16:41, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
That's what I figured. I was actually sort of surprised that no article existed for the "daily point of light", I'll put it on my to-do list...Naraht (talk) 17:05, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

music of the song "stand"by Rascal Flatts[edit]

please could you help me ?Ineed the music distribution of the song "stand" only without the lyric

Symbol move vote.svg Have you tried the Entertainment section of Wikipedia's Reference Desk? They specialize in answering knowledge questions there; this help desk is only for questions about using Wikipedia. For your convenience, here is the link to post a question there: click here. I hope this helps. -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 19:04, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Printing only the article (in other wikis)[edit]

How does Wikipedia make the globe logo and the "log in" link not show up in the printable version of the page like they do in other wikis? I noticed that some users are able to alter the globe logo on their userpages, so can I use that technique to add a class="noprint" tag above the logo?

Or, can I add a page break to the top of the page so I can tell it to only print from the second page on? One website recomended this: <p style="page-break-before: always">, but I only know wiki code and not html, so I don't know what that does. I'm worried about the word "always" in there. Thanks for you help. -- (talk) 19:14, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

See Help:Printable; the CSS section links to the print specific stylesheets. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 23:27, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Create a new entry[edit]

Hi. A want to start a new entry for "sovereign default". How to I do this? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Luke Robert Jamieson (talkcontribs)

A Wizard is available to walk you through these steps. See the Article Wizard.
Thank you.
Before creating an article, please search Wikipedia first to make sure that an article does not already exist on the subject. Please also review a few of our relevant policies and guidelines with which all articles should comply. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, articles must not contain original research, must be written from a neutral point of view, should cite reliable sources which verify their content and must not contain unsourced, negative content about living people.
Articles must also demonstrate the notability of the subject. Please see our subject specific guidelines for people, bands and musicians, companies and organizations and web content and note that if you are closely associated with the subject, our conflict of interest guideline strongly recommends against you creating the article.
If you still think an article is appropriate, see Wikipedia:Your first article. You might also look at Wikipedia:How to write a great article for guidance, and please consider taking a tour through the Wikipedia:Tutorial so that you know how to properly format the article before creation. An Article Wizard is also available to walk you through creating an article. TNXMan 19:23, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) First let me recommend that you don't right now. Creating a new article is the hardest thing of all to do at Wikipedia. It's like trying to learn to play baseball for the first time by showing up at the New York Yankees spring training. It'll be all heartache and little learning. Instead, spend a week or two getting to learn basic Wikipedia editing and practices. Find somethings that need fixing up. See Wikipedia:Introduction Learn proper markup and editing conventions. THEN, once you know what a good article looks like and how to create one, you cna do it. No requirement for that however, Wikipedia:Be bold is a cornerstone of Wikipedia philiosophy. You are invited to create the new article right now if you like. We have Wikipedia:Your first article which describes how to go about creating your first article, and Wikipedia:Article wizard for a step-by-step wizard that will guide you through the process. Just don't expect it to go "well" if you have no experience at Wikipedia. --Jayron32 19:37, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Make sure you note the existence of Sovereign defaults before you start a new article, perhaps you could start by expanding that section.--SPhilbrickT 20:45, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Image with permission[edit]

I'm trying to upload [2] to Chet Culver's page. I received an email on flickr giving me permission to upload the photo to Wikipedia. What all do I need to do? Forward a copy of the email to the Wiki Foundation? CTJF83 chat 21:25, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission. Goodvac (talk) 23:07, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
thanks CTJF83 chat 17:05, 30 April 2010 (UTC)


A posting about our high school has been recently made with nonsense information. It is likely done by students. It had one of our seniors (Will gregorich) as a former professional football player. I have edited that, but want to know how to protect my school from this.

<personal details redacted> —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gibault (talkcontribs)

Unfortunately articles about schools receive a lot of vandalism, probably from students. Much of it is picked up pretty quickly, but sometimes it slips through. Wikipedia:Requests for page protection is the place to request protection for a page, but this won't be granted unless there is serious or very regular vandalism - the odd bit of silliness doesn't come into that category. People with a conflict of interest are normally strongly discouraged from editing articles, but that doesn't apply to the removal of undoubted false information as you have just done, particularly since the information added was not sourced. All I can suggest is that you add the page to your watchlist and check it for vandalism from time to time.
I would also strongly suggest that you consider changing your username or abandoning your current account and starting a new one. Your username may violate the username policy because it suggests that you are editing on behalf of the school. In addition, your edit on this page revealed your identity and linked it to a user account name here, which might cause problems for a person in your position. See WP:Change username for more information. I have removed your name from this page, but if you do have concerns over the revealing of your identity and would like your edit hidden in the record, you can request this at Wikipedia:Requests for oversight. Karenjc 23:32, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
The claim was added two days ago by an IP address I have posted a message to at User talk: PrimeHunter (talk) 00:09, 30 April 2010 (UTC)



Everytime i try to put a reference against text a note saying 'no reference tag' forgive me for my lack of knowledge how do i put a reference tag against a ref. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danny3388 (talkcontribs)

I made your refs display. I used the code ==References== to create a references section header, then the code {{reflist}} to make the refs you added to the text display in the section. I took out the unnecessary repeat refs at the bottom. Have a look at the page history to see exactly what I did. Hope this helps. Karenjc 23:11, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
The blue Cite error part of the message links to Help:Cite_errors#refs-without-references. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 23:24, 29 April 2010 (UTC)


Were do I go to find or upload pictures? Thanks, GaGalover13 (talk) 22:56, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

One of two different locations, depending on the licensing status on the picture.
If the picture is freely licensed (i.e., not copyrighted or "copylefted" under a free license such as the GFDL), it should be uploaded to our sister project Wikimedia Commons -- make sure you go to Special:MergeAccount here first so you can use the same username at Commons. Once you upload the picture there, it can be used on any Wikimedia project. Commons is quite a large repository of images, so please search first to make sure the image you want to upload (or an equivalent) hasn't been uploaded already.
If the picture is copyrighted, it needs to uploaded locally to English Wikipedia, and you must write a fair use rationale ("fur") for each article you plan to add the picture to that explains how using the picture satisfies the criteria for usage of non-free content.
I know images can be a complicated and often frustrating area of work, so please don't hesitate to come back if you require additional help. Xenon54 / talk / 00:12, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
See the Image casebook for discussion of image types that you can or cannot upload to Wikimedia Commons. If you have questions about the copyright status of particular images, ask on the aptly named Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. If you want to figure it all out for yourself, see the rather remarkable collection of links under Commons:COM:EIC#Copyright which give a taste of the complexity dreamed up by attorneys and politicians to keep us all entertained. --Teratornis (talk) 02:11, 30 April 2010 (UTC)