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January 18[edit]

Indian religions swastika mistake for Nazi[edit]

The Indian religions, example Hinduism and Buddhism, use swastika for peace and good luck for many hundred years. But many Western people hate swastika cause Nazis steal it to use for hate. Wikipedia Swastika article has a bit about Western misinterpretation of Asian use but want to know more. Like how Jewish people feel about Indian religions swastika and they angry at Indians? In the Western countrys any attack on Hindu and Buddhist temples or discrimation to the Hindus and Buddhists cause of swastika? How try to help Western people learn about Indian religions swastika? --Curious Cat On Her Last Life (talk) 10:05, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Jehovah's Witnesses mention the swastika at http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200000531, paragraph 8.
Wavelength (talk) 10:37, 18 January 2017 (UTC) and 10:49, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
Here's an interesting essay and comments on the subject.[1]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:14, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
For your last question, "How to try to help": some key words are interfaith and outreach. For example, I searched google for /hindu interfaith outreach/, and I found this organization in the USA [2], who try to help "non-Hindus to understand and appreciate the seemingly unfamiliar religions of the East." So, if you search for Hindu or Buddhist "outreach" in your country or other specific location, you will probably find organizations who want to help people of different faiths and traditions understand each other and get along in harmony. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:40, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
Note that's it's not the only thing that we now see in a bad light, as a result of the Nazis. The toothbrush mustache, the name Adolph, and eugenics all got a really bad name. Probably time is needed for them to return to their formal status, although by then eugenics may be moot, having been replaced by genetic engineering. StuRat (talk) 20:33, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
Please tell me you're joking about eugenics here, Poe's law being what it is... --Jayron32 02:22, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
I really hope Stu recognizes the difference between 1920s "Let's kill or sterilize everyone who doesn't look like us, because we are clearly the superior race", and the modern era's "Let's help parents decide if they'd like to have biological children by giving them the best possible information about their likely health." There's a reason people aren't keen to bring back the term. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:29, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Yes, the genocidal version of eugenics made the sensible parts, like offering free sterilization to people who are carriers of severe genetic diseases, seem like it was genocide, too. But since we will soon be able to remove those genetic diseases through gene therapy, there's no longer the need. StuRat (talk) 02:59, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Bear in mind that Nazi-style "kill anyone not of our race or otherwise not like us" was merely the most extreme of a lot of very bad ideas that came out of the eugenics movement. Even supposedly liberal societies were forcibly or exploitatively sterilizing people for somehow not meeting the approval of the people in charge of the sterilization. Plus, much of it was based on really bad (pseudo)science as well. There may well be a valid role for some "eugenics-like" policies, but they would be so far removed from anything like the traditional practice that it probably would be inaccurate to actually call them eugenics. Iapetus (talk) 17:12, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Baseball Bugs, thanks for the essay and is the only good answer. SemanticMantis, very important for outreach to help people with all religions get along, but is like too big for my question about Indian swastika mistake for Nazi swastika. Wavelength and StuRat, what is the link to my question? --Curious Cat On Her Last Life (talk) 09:13, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Curious Cat, I can't provide references, but as an elderly (UK) Westerner (with some Jewish connections and an interest in World religions) I do not recall ever seeing a news report in the UK about an eastern good luck swastika being mistaken for Nazi support, so it can't be very common (or my memory is worse that I thought). It does sometimes happen that swastikas are daubed on temples (as well as synagogues or other buildings) by racist neo-nazis or displayed by immature people wanting to shock and offend. Most Western people, in my experience, know about the swastika's more ancient meaning and of the Nazis' misappropriation of it, and Jews are especially well aware of this.
Incidentally, the very similar fylfot was historically used in the West long before the Nazis, and while it is now sometimes discreetly removed to avoid unpleasant associations (for example, from the sign on the pub near my house called The Chamberlayne Arms, whose heraldic coat of arms contained several), few if any would confuse its appearance with support for the Nazis. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.12.94.189 (talk) 11:59, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
The link is in the conclusion, that it just takes time. We will soon be at the point where nobody living will have memories of Nazis, and that will decrease the intensity of the collective memory, but we do still have many pictures and films to remind us. Eventually, as more recent events distract us from those "ancient" events, we will forget about them and all their associations. StuRat (talk) 14:38, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Eugenics was a prog thing before it was a Nazi thing. Asmrulz (talk) 21:13, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
It also had a stark class character. (New England SWPLs vs rural badwhites) Asmrulz (talk) 21:20, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
The UK Scout Association's Thanks Badge (an award for non-Scouting adults who had helped the movement in some way) took the form of a Hindu style swastika or fylfot from 1908 until 1935 when the symbol's association with Nazism had overridden any previous meanings. It now looks like this. Alansplodge (talk) 16:34, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

So many answers are not about my question or link not clear. Thanks 94.12.94.189. --Curious Cat On Her Last Life (talk) 13:37, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

quote is bugging me[edit]

Tried Googling it, this opening line is stuck in my head "The Duchess of Kent shot a lion across the river there, just this side of the kop." Anyone know the book?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 17:58, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

If you google "The Duchess of Kent shot alionacrossthe riverthere" (with those four missing spaces) you'll find a link to Ten Minutes to Turn the Devil by Douglas Hurd, but I can't read the actual text. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:22, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
Thank you so much!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 01:42, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Plank roads[edit]

In both the articles Plank Road and Plank Road Boom, this text appears "Three plank roads, the Hackensack, the Paterson, and the Newark, were major arteries in northern New Jersey. The roads travelled over the New Jersey Meadowlands, connecting the cities for which they were named to the Hudson River waterfront," yet in both, there is no citation that mentions that. Can anyone find a source for this? Eddie891 (talk) 20:17, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia has articles titled Paterson Plank Road, Hackensack Plank Road, and Newark Plank Road that have probably enough sourcing to support such a statement. That is, the statement is likely reliable, though there is not a specific cite in those two articles. If you were looking to improve those two article, the best thing would be to review the source text from the road articles, and find sources to support the statement. --Jayron32 23:44, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

January 19[edit]

Anti Muslim hate crimes that have turned out to be fake[edit]

Is there a list of antimuslim hate crimes that have turned out to be fake?99.119.9.245 (talk) 03:12, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Well, there is this video of a Palestinian funeral procession (with the "victim" allegedly killed by Israelis), where they drop the body, and he gets up and back into the funeral wrap. They didn't think they were on camera at that point, but an Israeli drone captured it: [3]. StuRat (talk) 03:25, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
I think the only people who would have an interest in collating such reports (as in, publishing lists, as opposed to individual incidents - the latter may well be reported in the media) would be anti-Muslims themselves, so make sure to verify accuracy of any given supposed incident from other sources. That's not to say that such incidents do not in fact happen. Eliyohub (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:09, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
It's also worth remembering there's a big gulf between "wasn't actually an anti-Muslim hate crime" and fake. I recall a case (unfortunately I looked but couldn't find sources) where there an attack of some sort on a mosque. There was no definite indication it was a hate crime although as is common with attacks on places of worship it was investigated as a possible hate crime. However it was later discovered the attack was due to some dispute between members (and not because of sectarian reasons). There was as mentioned, no attempt to make it seem like a hate crime (it's not like they wrote 'this is for 9/11'" or something on it) so it would be inaccurate to call it fake, but it wasn't an anti-Muslim hate crime. Even if the perpetrators were one of the ones calling it a hate crime later, it's questionable if this would make it a "fake" and I don't think this happened anyway. Nil Einne (talk) 11:54, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
More of an "individual hate" crime, i.e. personal not religious. When the OP raised the question, I first thought of that attack on a Sikh congregation in Wisconsin a few years ago, where the perp was so stupid he thought he was shooting Muslims. But that doesn't quite fit the bill either. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:15, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Reminds me of some idiots who set fire to the workplace of someone who had devoted their life to helping children, because their idiotic brains could not distinguish between a Pediatrician and a Paedophile. How sad. Eliyohub (talk) 14:55, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
[citation needed]. --Jayron32 15:34, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
I don't know of a case exactly as described by Eliyohub, but here[4] is a report of a paediatrician being driven out of her home by a mob, after the News of the World stirred up anti-paedophile vigilantism. Iapetus (talk) 16:59, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Note if you read the source carefully, there's no reference to a mob actually being involved. Actually it says it's unknown who actually did it although police and others believe only someone incredibly ignorant could be responsible and it's probably not children. However [5] suggests it may have indeed been teens but in any case the perpertrators were never identified and so their motivations are unknown (so whether it was genuinely anti-paedophile vigilantism or someone trolling or what likewise). For this reason, it's also no longer in the article above. Nil Einne (talk) 15:37, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

I think the IP might be referring to most recent crimes in the US. And there have been a few documented to be made up. Here is one in NYC, [6] Sir Joseph (talk) 17:15, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

  • Ann Coulter documents hate crime hoaxes in at least one of her books, but it is far from complete, up to date, or focused only on Islam. I am curious why the OP hasn't just googled this. μηδείς (talk) 20:35, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Risshū (Buddhism)[edit]

As far as I know, 律宗 is a Chinese Buddhist sect, at least originally. Baidu Baike says: 律宗,中国佛教宗派之一,发源地是陕西西安净业寺。 This page as it stands does not reflect this. Tooironic (talk) 05:04, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

They could both be right (sort of). Having a look at zh:律宗, it talks about 律宗 as Chinese school of Buddhism (漢傳佛教宗派). Jianzhen's voyage to Japan is mentioned right at the bottom of that article: 律宗由道宣三传弟子鉴真于754年(唐天宝十三年)传至日本当时的都城奈良. That's the point in history where the English language article starts. It appears that Jianzhen brought a preexisting school (律宗) to Japan, and the English language article only talks about its history in Japan and not before. I note that Nanto Rokushū says
These schools moved to Japan from Korea and China during the late 6th and early 7th centuries. All of these schools were controlled by the newly formed Japanese government of Nara. These schools were installed to mimic and expand upon already existing mainland Asian Buddhist thought.
(I'm having a hell of a time trying to find a consistent romanization of 律宗 in Chinese: lǜzōng and diacrtic-less versions, rulong, lenzong... )
Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 03:48, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
PS: no matter how polite you think it might be, do not refer to Nara as o-Nara.

Imperial Household Law[edit]

Who has the authority to amend or change the Imperial Household Law? The Emperor or the elected government? Aside from the talks, nothing has been changed since 1947, correct?--96.41.155.253 (talk) 07:27, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Given that the Emperor of Japan is bossed around by his household staff, (a bizarre situation to my "western" mind!) he himself would presumably have near-zero power here. He can veto an appointment to the "Grand Stewardship" of the agency, but that's pretty much it. He doesn't even have any Reserve powers, unlike most constitutional monarchs, I believe. Convention, as I understand it, is that he's not even allowed to have an opinion, even on Imperial Household matters, at least publicly. So it would fall upon the Government to change things, though some things are "executive" rather than "legislative". The aforementioned Imperial Household Agency falls under the jurisdiction of the Cabinet Office (Japan), and they could presumably change its operations without any need for legislation. The Imperial Household Law that you mention, on the other hand, is presumably legislation, and only parliament could change it. Eliyohub (talk) 08:45, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Our article is actually quite good and OP should read it. The Imperial Household Law is ordinary statute and can only be amended by parliament - much as the line of succession in the UK and the Commonwealth Realms can only be amended by parliament and not by the monarch alone. --165.225.80.99 (talk) 17:48, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Note, though, that the Japanese Government would have a lot of an easier time as to the mechanics of amending the Imperial Household law, than the U.K. Government had in passing the Succession to the Crown Act 2013, as the U.K. had to deal with the Statute_of_Westminster_1931#Implications_for_succession_to_the_throne. (As to the politics of any changes, I am not familiar with the politics surrounding the Imperial Household and its operations, though our articles do talk about the issues). Changes to the British monarchy require the consent of all Commonwealth realms, whereas changes to the Japanese Imperial Household law only need action from the Japanese Parliament. And am I correct in pointing out that the operations of the Imperial Household Agency, are purely "executive", and would not even require legislation, just a Cabinet Office decision? Eliyohub (talk) 08:50, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

More than one President[edit]

Does any person have a job title of "Second/Third/etc President"?—azuki (talk · contribs · email) 10:07, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, etc. If you mean "anyone anywhere", Google might turn up some examples. But the prefix "vice" means "substitute",[7] like if the president is incapacitated. That doesn't preclude some organization somewhere using a term like "second president" rather than "vice president", of course. Many large organizations have multiple vice-presidents, who aren't necessarily "substitutes" but are merely second in command to the president for their specific departments. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:49, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
As an aside, the official title "Second <blank>" is definitely used in other contexts, the UK has a Second Lord of the Treasury, many nations use the title "Second Minister" as the official title of what others may call a deputy minister, etc. --Jayron32 13:50, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
  • This parliamentary office in France has a président, a premier vice-président (first vice-president), and multiple (regular) vice-présidents. (In the translated website, the first two are called chairman and vice-chairman.) TigraanClick here to contact me 14:48, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Second president is sometimes used as a translation of Av Beit Din, the second leader of the Sanhedrin [8]. Rmhermen (talk) 00:00, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
  • The National Council of Austria has a President, Second President, and Third President.—azuki (talk · contribs · email) 12:18, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Inauguration Day[edit]

We all know the president places his hand on a bible and takes the oath of office, but what other details need to be satisfied? Does he sign anything declaring he understands or accepts the responsibility? Is there an official recording to 'prove' he accepted the oath? Who picks the bible? I have some Baptist friends who only recognize the King James Version and some Catholic friends who only recognize the Catholic version. What if he were Jewish, Muslim, or atheist? Does the outgoing president do anything to relinquish his position or does he just move out?68.191.203.98 (talk) 13:34, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Does Oath of office of the President of the United States answer some of your questions? Fut.Perf. 13:37, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
(1) I've never heard that he signs anything--he just takes the oath. (2) There's no constitutional requirement for a recording, since recordings didn't exist when the Constitution first came into being. (3) He picks the Bible himself. (4) He doesn't have to use a Bible; he just needs to take the oath. (5) The departing president just moves out. Loraof (talk) 15:46, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Posting by banned user removed. Fut.Perf. 18:49, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Two notes. (1) He doesn't have to take an "oath" at all; it's actually an "oath or affirmation", with no religious requirement. See the above link. One president so far has chosen to affirm. (2) The error at the 2009 inaguration was initially made by the Chief Justice, who tried to recite the words from memory for the President to repeat, and got them wrong. --76.71.6.254 (talk) 00:19, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Actually, the "affirmation" option is for those who consider it a violation of their religion to "swear". As for 2009, I recall it fondly, as Obama had a big grin as he tried to say it the right way after Roberts botched it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:32, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Actually, the US Constitution says no such thing as "for those who consider it a violation of their religion". Again, see the link posted by Future. --76.71.6.254 (talk) 05:47, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
But that's its purpose. At the time it was written, atheism was not even on the radar. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:57, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
  • It's a bit surprising in hindsight that Nixon, a nominal Quaker, did not also affirm. —Tamfang (talk) 06:33, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
I occasionally hear of a crank challenging the legitimacy of a judge by demanding to see the formal record of their oath of office. I don't know what form they imagine that this record takes. —Tamfang (talk) 06:33, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
The swearing-in of new judges may well be videotaped, as it's often deemed a major occasion, where the Government of the day gets to show off its picks, and release the footage to TV stations, and possibly online, in the modern age. Not that the crank has any right to this in order to establish the Judge's jurisdiction, but he or she may well have a right to the recording under Freedom of Information laws. Though, this would seldom be necessary, just ask the Justice ministry, they'll usually happily hand over a copy. Eliyohub (talk) 09:10, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
  • The Catholic position would be that this is not a sacrament or part of one, and hence the Bible is more of a prop demonstrating the solemnity of the Oath. Even when I did the readings at my Sister's funeral mass, I asked the Roman Catholic priest presiding over the funeral mass if I could use the KJV of Proverbs and Corinthians I, and he "gave his blessing". Catholics nowadays frown on entanglement of church and state per se. Caesaropapism might be relevant. μηδείς (talk) 20:29, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
This reminds me of our crackpot Conservapedia colleagues: "If elected, Obama would likely become the first Muslim President, and could use the Koran to be sworn into office." [9] Some funny stuff there. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:29, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Maybe I'm way off track here, but I wonder, if the President was required to take an oath, and did not have the option of affirming, would this not potentially clash with the No Religious Test Clause, if an oath was deemed of a "religious nature"?
The bible is entirely optional, and as our article notes, several Presidents did not use one. Some swore on a book of law, others held nothing at all.
Also note that whilst the option to affirm rather than swear may have been based on concern for those who are religiously prohibited from oath-taking, a President need not have such justification, and may choose to affirm purely as a matter of personal choice.
And yes, a hypothetical Muslim President could choose to hold a Koran as he took the oath, as what he's holding has no legal significance to the procedure. The political wisdom of doing so may be a separate consideration, perhaps. Eliyohub (talk) 08:58, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Theoretically, Trump could take the oath on a copy of The Art of the Deal if he wanted to. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:25, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Sounds like a plan. Trump presumably thinks he's smarter than God, so his book would be a natural fit. StuRat (talk) 05:00, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
"In the beginning, The Donald created the heaven and the earth and the tax loophole and the bankruptcy law; and he saw that it was all great... HUGE, even." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:11, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Which latitude and longitude crosses the most countries in the world?[edit]

Thanks.--93.174.25.12 (talk) 15:09, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

[10] [11] --Jayron32 15:30, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
Those links suggest the 8th parallel north (I counted 23 countries in our article) for latitude, and both the 27th meridian east (21 countries) and the 28th meridian east (21 countries as well) for longitude. (Of course I'm wondering whether it's possible to find a non-integral (non-X°00′00'') latitude or longitude that beats these answers). ---Sluzzelin talk 15:35, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
As Sluzzelin notes, the question was not limited to latitudes and longitudes where the number of degrees is an integer. The answer will have to be one or more bands of latitude and one or more bands of longitude, that cross the most countries. By drawing a north-south line in Google Maps using the "measure distance" tool, you can tell that longitude 27.1°E (27°6' E) crosses all the same countries* as longitude 27°E, plus Lesotho; therefore 27°E cannot be part of a correct answer. I have not checked other longitudes or any latitudes; I don't have any tool to do it easily. (*Norway, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece, Egypt, Sudan, South Sudan, Central African Republic, Democratic Republic of Congo, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Botswana, South Africa.) --76.71.6.254 (talk) 01:05, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Interesting bit of useless trivia I gained from this question: As far as I could tell, South Sudan is the only country which is passed by all three lines (8°N, 27°E, 28°E), so it must be the nation from which it is possible to visit the largest amount of countries worldwide by only traveling on one line in one of the four cardinal directions ... ---Sluzzelin talk 23:42, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
That must explain it's thriving economy as the world center for trade. :-) StuRat (talk) 04:59, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
I'm a little disappointed in the above responses since all suggested solutions appear to be wrong. Using the database of Global Administrative Areas (GADM v2), I find that the answer for longitude is a narrow strip from 22.357 E to 22.570 E that crosses 26 countries:
  • Angola, Botswana, Bulgaria, Central African Republic, Chad, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Estonia, Finland, Greece, Hungary, Latvia, Libya, Lithuania, Macedonia, Namibia, Norway, Poland, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Slovakia, South Africa, Sudan, Sweden, Ukraine, and Zambia.
This misses South Sudan by a little bit, but makes up for it by crossing more countries in Europe. For latitude, the answer is complicated. There are in fact three swathes that cross 3 different permutations of 27 countries. These swathes are: 10.2821 to 10.3096 N (with gaps where it misses critical island nations), 11.1347 to 11.1390 N, and 12.1918 to 12.1982 N. The nations in the first swath are:
  • Benin, Burkina Faso, Burma, Cambodia, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Chad, Colombia, Costa Rica, Côte d'Ivoire, Ethiopia, France (overseas territory), Ghana, Guinea, India, Mali, Marshall Islands, Nigeria, Philippines, Somalia, South Sudan, Sudan, Thailand, Togo, Trinidad and Tobago, Venezuela, and Vietnam.
The countries in the last swath are:
  • Benin, Burkina Faso, Burma, Cambodia, Cameroon, Chad, Colombia, Curaçao, Djibouti, Ethiopia, Grenada, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, India, Mali, Marshall Islands, Netherlands (overseas territory), Nicaragua, Niger, Nigeria, Philippines, South Sudan, Sudan, Thailand, Venezuela, Vietnam, and Yemen.
The points of intersection would be in either Central African Republic or Chad. Dragons flight (talk) 12:53, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

What's the best place to read 50% probability-bad Trump scenarios, 10%, 1% and so on written by experts?[edit]

If not explicitly saying "10% chance-bad Trump scenarios look like these", "1% chance-bad Trump scenarios look like these" or similar then at least giving some qualitative idea of how likely or unlikely.

There's got to be some college degree and résumé that's least unqualified to do this but I don't know what it is. Much better than any single person I think would be a group of specialists and probably a Renaissance man or three. An economist isn't going to predict his possible wars well, someone who predicts war well (for a human) isn't going to predict the chance of recession and how bad well, psychologists wouldn't know enough military strategy to predict casualties. Sociologists, political scientists, historians, climate scientists, diplomats, intelligence experts , Constitution experts, terrorism experts, "nationologists" (i.e. Mexicologists), Islamologists and maybe psychiatrists probably would all have something to contribute. Has there been an interdisciplinary gathering of people like these about what could happen the next 4 years? That would've been awesome and useful. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:48, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

I would suggest you go on the internet and use a search engine to try and find what you are looking for.
By the way, are you aware that there is an encyclopedia attached to this discussion board?--Shirt58 (talk) 03:08, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Question on policies and removing a page[edit]

Hello I was wondering I cam across a page denoting and citing fictionalized facts and literally the book used to reference the page was labeled historical fiction by a bookseller.. I read through the references and it is entirely ambiguously written no references or footnotes to the truth of where such exaggerated unfounded and literally comical assertions in many ways completely disprovable by recent discoveries have all but dismissed any of the nonsense that was obviously made up by the author.... Anyway the page in question is: Population history of indigenous peoples of the Americas and I fail to see the point in allowing this page to exist since it is basically disinforming and the cited reference is fictionalized.. This is being displayed and misrepresents the truth so what do I do or how do I proceed in removing it or is that something that has to be approved and if so can you direct that way... The reason really is this actually incites and further racial hatred and exaggerates the truth and anyone who is ignorant of the truth and history of what is written and referenced on this page is going to be out right offended and in this time we don't need to perpetuate lies to advance a very ugly agenda that appears to be the motive here perhaps since you don't publish such nonsense as fact unless one is completely and utterly irresponsible in the harm it can truly cause! thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coolzeezee808 (talkcontribs) 21:59, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

First, this is the wrong page to ask the question, it should have gone to WP:HD or WP:EAR. Second, you're telling me you've looked into all 62 references in the article, including all 12 books, 6 online resources, and many other sources, and determined all to be fictional? Or is this a beef over one source? I think you'd be better off clicking the "talk" or discussion tab above the article, and starting a conversation, than beginning a futile endeavor to delete an article over one bad source. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:06, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
The article has a wide number of references to reliable sources; if you have specific issues with particular parts of the article or questions about a specific reference used, the place to discuss them would be the article talk page, Talk:Population history of indigenous peoples of the Americas. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:06, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

What do you call the symmetrical folds around the mouth ion this face?[edit]

Is there a physiognomy interpretation of such a feature (as varied as psychics are and as pseudo-scientific as any such endeavor is)? I'm only asking as I don't tend to see such a facial feature and a Chinese tells me that this indicates a person who has to toil. Imagine Reason (talk) 22:40, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

I assume you are referring to nasolabial folds. There is actually a ton of research on it. Apparently these are missing in most newborns and those with facial paralysis, but present on most other individuals. They get more pronounced with age. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:27, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
I see, but wouldn't you say that they are much more pronounced in this person than in many other people? Seems like he's lost a lot of fats and collagen there then. Imagine Reason (talk) 00:11, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Who are you talking about? You haven't linked to anything or mentioned anyone by name. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:44, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Maybe they mean Harvey. --Golbez (talk) 04:50, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Is it really accurate to describe Trump as fascist?[edit]

I often hear mainstream media describe Trump as a fascist, but wouldn't his ideology be the complete opposite of fascism? Republicans are for freedom of the individual and small government, while fascists are pro-statist. Second question: I also argued this point to somebody, and he claimed that Hilter was for small government but more law and order, and I haven't seen anything online that says this is so.Uncle dan is home (talk) 23:01, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Republicans aren't for small government. They want the government involved in subsidies to fossil fuel, bedroom behaviors, a huge military-industrial complex. Imagine Reason (talk) 23:05, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
"Trump is a fascist" is about as accurate as "Obama is a communist". Also, what Imagine Reason said - Republicans only want to shrink the parts of government they don't like. Let's look at how Wikipedia talks about fascism. It would appear the defining features include social conservatism, anti-liberalism, anti-communism, nationalism, and a positive view of violence and masculinity, all of which could be ascribed to Trump, but not nearly to the intensity that was seen in historical fascist leaders, like comparing a campfire to the sun. However, fascism also typically included government intervention in the economy and support for (some) trade unions, neither of which seem particularly Trumptastic. I think a fair assessment would be that Trump has some things in common with fascist leaders, just as most people have something in common with most other people, but this is not a particularly informative comparison. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:35, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
(ec) See Fascism. I wouldn't (yet) call Trump a fascist in earnest, but he uses a lot of the symbolism and rhetoric. "Make America Great Again" vs. Hitler's "great mission", "great plan", "great time", "great people", "great movement", "rebuilding the great empire of the German people" - there is a depressing similarity of tone. Also see Snopes on the topic - they rate the claim that both use the same slogan as "mixture". Also note that Trump is a Republican only in name and by convenience. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:46, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
This would seem to me to fall under "requests for opinions, predictions or debate", which are forbidden on the Ref Desk. There's no Official Council of Whether or Not Someone or Something is Fascist; any determination of such is always going to be subjective to some degree. A question that could be answered factually would be something like, "Do scholars of fascism think that Trump is a fascist?" --47.138.163.230 (talk) 00:05, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
See Godwin's law. And right wingers like to claim it's liberals who are the "fascists". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:08, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
"Republicans are for freedom of the individual and small government" Oh, sweet summer child. Not to mention the fact that Trump is not exactly a Republican. --Golbez (talk) 00:22, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Republicans make that claim, but it's a false claim. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:28, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
  • No one has a clue what Trump is politically. He's never been a politician before. So far he's populist, but highly changeable. He could go any way. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:24, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
    • He could go more than one direction even within a 24 hour period, it seems. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:28, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
      • It's been said that Trump has, at one time or another, held every possible position on every issue. It's not far from the truth. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:43, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Except the scientific consensus on climate change. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:37, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
I would say the most important aspect of fascism is that the leader thinks he is smarter and more important than everything else; other individuals, parties, the government, the rule of law/Constitution, and even the nation. Hitler, for example, was always meddling with the war and overriding his generals and admirals, usually with disastrous results. So, does Trump think he is smarter than the generals ? StuRat (talk) 04:42, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Possibly. Trump repeatedly claimed on the campaign trail that once he was in office, his military policies would result in ISIS being crushed inside a month, though he didn't say how (he did float the idea at one meeting of nuking ISIS, I'm sure that wouldn't have any bad consequences). However, to my knowledge he never clarified if he put the blame solely on Obama, or also thought the generals were being incompetent. He has also talked about getting advice from various generals, and bringing new generals in to assess the situation. So it's possible his plan for destroying ISIS was to bring in experts to solve the problem for him, because his experts will be better than Obama's. Or he just never had a plan, and this was typical Trump bluster. Who knows. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:49, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
  • That's the Führerprinzip and it's originally specific to 1930s German fascism under Hitler (and some others). It has been a popular feature of fascist politics, but not always. Only one gets to be Führer and so it's hard to get support from others during its development: even budding Führers need minions. Hence the endemic nature of squabbling and political assassination within growing fascist movements.
Once established, it's also difficult for the political continuity of a fascist state as what happens after the demise of the Führer? North Korea seems to have achieved this, by combining fascism and hereditary monarchy. That's rare though. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:08, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
We can't know for sure until he actually takes office and actually does something. So far, it's been nothing but talk. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:22, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
All the comparisons above are to Hitler and the Nazis, but they were themselves only called "fascist" by analogy to the slightly older Mussolini and his Italian fascist parties. Perhaps one should look there for possible parallels with Trump. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.12.94.189 (talk) 14:47, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.
[...] Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathizers, almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’. That is about as near to a definition as this much-abused word has come.
But Fascism is also a political and economic system. Why, then, cannot we have a clear anderally accepted definition of it? Alas! we shall not get one — not yet, anyway. To say why would take too long, but basically it is because it is impossible to define Fascism satisfactorily without making admissions which neither the Fascists themselves, nor the Conservatives, nor Socialists of any colour, are willing to make. All one can do for the moment is to use the word with a certain amount of circumspection and not, as is usually done, degrade it to the level of a swearword.
In a nutshell, he's saying there is no good definition of fascist, and there's unlikely to be one, since the right will resist defining traditionalism and nationalism as fascist traits, and the left will equally reject the idea that public ownership and a planned economy are fascist. Smurrayinchester 20:47, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Here is a another similarity: Hitler personally profited from his political position, because schools and cities were "strongly encouraged" to buy Mein Kampf - he even got a special law that made it illegal to sell this particular book second hand. Trump is set to personally profit from his position - most obviously via the Trump International Hotel, which is even now apparently advertising "stay here to leave a good impression with the administration" [12]. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:14, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  • I think the fascist label is just a term of abuse as applied to Trump at the moment. I think narcissistic sociopath would be accurate, but then that applies to quite a large number of the heads of companies. It is surprising that it seems to be such a winning trait in business. Dmcq (talk) 14:51, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
  • A CEO who dramatically overestimates their own competence seems like it would get a small firm into trouble, if it means taking crazy risks that drive them out of business. On the other hand, once a firm gets "too big to fail", they can take all the crazy risks they like, knowing the taxpayers will bail them out if the risks turn out badly. StuRat (talk) 17:39, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

January 20[edit]

When did the tanks arrive?[edit]

Greetings,


I am trying to date some images of the Rif war, which date as far to 1923. On them a Spanish blocao is shown and six Schneider CA1 can be appreciated. Location is Tafersit. I know there was a battle on that site, and that two of the tanks were badly damaged. As the image shows all six, I assume they are intact; as consequence, they had to be photographied before the engagement. So I would like to know is (if possible):

- The date in which the tanks arrived on Tafersit

- The date in which they left the camp

- The date in which the battle begun

- The date in which the battle finished

- Regimental information about the Spanish forces defending the fort while the tanks were on there


Thank you very much,

Buran Biggest Fan (talk) 00:00, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article on the Schneider CA1 says that during the Rif War, the six Schneider CA1 tanks first arrived in Morocco on February 28, 1922 and entered battle on March 14. They then fought alongside a company of Renault FT-17s and fought until 1926/1929. I haven't found any information beyond that. See also: [13], [14], [15], [16]. clpo13(talk) 00:16, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

When does the handover happen?[edit]

Trump is instantly President at noon but isn't allowed to discharge the powers of President till he finishes the oath. So Obama has to be acting president then, right? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:55, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

No, Obama's term will be over. See the 20th Amendment. Nobody "has to be acting president" unless the terms of the 25th Amendment are met. --76.71.6.254 (talk) 01:10, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
There's no meaningful task he has to do during the short time span anyways. The machinery of the U.S. government carries on quite fine without Presidential attention for a few hours. It's a meaningless distinction anyways; arguably he's been discharging his powers since the election during the transition period; he has made nominations for his cabinet positions and confirmation hearings have been going on for weeks now. It's inconsequential trivia that he can't "discharge the duties" until the oath has been taken. --Jayron32 01:22, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
So if news of an undiscovered asteroid damaging Boston or a US version of the Norwegian rocket incident got to the podium at noon they'd just hurry up with the oath? Is he even allowed to learn the codes till he finishes the oath? Or does he already know special codes that won't work till noon? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:34, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
There's no reason they couldn't give the oath at any time if necessary to do so. There is no necessary part of the oath, regarding time and place, excepting that he is given it. Calvin Coolidge was administered the oath in his downstairs parlor by his father; he promptly went back to bed. There's no hand-wringing needed; if things need to be done things will get done "but he didn't say the words yet. Guess we just have to wait and do nothing" is not going to happen. The U.S. is too well organized, and important action does not wait on inconsequential ceremonies. --Jayron32 03:04, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Indeed, there's no explicit constitutional requirement for the oath to be taken after assuming office rather than before. If he'd already taken it last week, that would still be "Before he enter on the execution of his office". Whether that would actually be deemed valid, if it mattered, is something we can only speculate on. --76.71.6.254 (talk) 05:55, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
If immediate action required the President to ""jump the gun", i.e. have to use the nuclear football during the time period between noon and when he gave the oath, for example, or if it required Obama to use the codes after noon (but again technically before the oath), it is highly unlikely that such an event would ever be litigated. Which is why it is a silly thing to worry about. If shit needs to get done, shit will be done. --Jayron32 12:50, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps the OP intended to ask: If someone had the sad duty of using the "football" with the nuclear launch codes to respond to a nuclear attack, at what instant would that become Trump in place of Obama? Is there a single military officer who ceases accompanying president 44 and starts accompanying president 45? Is there a general in the airborn "Looking glass" command post who covers launch responsibility until there is a transition? Will the media note who in the sequence of presidential succession is present at the inauguration and who is left as the "designated survivor?" Edison (talk) 04:53, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
The football carrier will literally stand with President Obama, then walk over to President Trump after he recites the oath [17]. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:57, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Environmental policies of Hitler[edit]

Does anyone know anything about Adolf Hitler's environmental policies?98.229.48.107 (talk) 04:32, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

We have a couple short paragraphs at Nazi_Germany#Environmentalism. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:34, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
As far as long-term goals, the idea was to enslave to rest of the world and have them serve the German people, so that would mean factories with slave labor would be located elsewhere, with local pollution, and goods fed into a "perfect" Germany. Of course, air and water pollution could still spread to Germany from those places, but at that time global pollution levels weren't yet very significant. StuRat (talk) 04:48, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
[citation needed] badly on that. As far as I understand Mein Kampf (and boy, it was one to struggle through even parts of that monstrosity) and Nazi propaganda, the long-term goal was a racially pure "Greater Germany", taking in parts of France and Lebensraum in the east up to the Ural mountains, with the current population either germanised (if "of good racial stock") or removed. Forced labour was only a temporary means to that end - the ideal was the ArianAryan peasant working the land. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:39, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
You probably mean "Aryan", Stephan. I don't know that he had any particular position on Arianism. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.12.94.189 (talk) 14:56, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Aha...in German it's "Arianer" (after Arius) vs. "Arier" - no "y" in anywhere. Thanks! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:16, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Yes, there would be a Greater Germany, but beyond that, as in the lands of the Slavs, which to him included Russia, they would be enslaved, along with everyone removed from Greater Germany and moved there. Working the land doesn't create much pollution, other than agricultural run-off. It's factories that are the heaviest offenders, and were so even more back then. StuRat (talk) 18:19, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

noon[edit]

Twentieth Amendment to the United States Constitution: "The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January, and the terms of Senators and Representatives at noon on the 3d day of January . . . ."

Now, "noon" could mean the moment when the true Sun reaches its highest point of the day; or when the Mean Sun does so; or 12h00 local standard time. And orthogonally to that variation, it could mean the time at the Capitol, or local time, so that the outgoing President can still do stuff relating to the West for a few hours after he has expired in the East, and likewise the representatives of Hawaii and Alaska are the last to clean out their desks.

Has there ever been litigation or other dispute over the definition of "noon"? —Tamfang (talk) 06:51, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

The representatives from Hawaii and Alaska, along with all the others, would have cleaned out their desks a couple weeks earlier, as Congressional terms began on Jan 3. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇 16:18, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
At noon. Was my wording so sloppy as to suggest comparing noon of the 3d with noon of the 20th? —Tamfang (talk) 08:40, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Would there really be any point in a legal battle over the right to stay in office for a few more hours at most? As a purely academic matter, maybe someone can dig something up. But at the time the relevant clause in the Constitution was written, wouldn't things like clocks and watches (and fast interstate communications, let alone travel) have been in short supply anyways, making the issue practically moot? They would have had to rely on the sun's position, but would either the outgoing President or the new one care? Presumably, they started when everything was ready, and gave little consideration to the exact minute. Things moved much more slowly back then. Eliyohub (talk) 10:29, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
This particular part of the constitution was adopted in 1933, so the people who wrote it were no strangers to precision timekeeping. That said, I have not been able to find record of a single law or lawsuit regarding the interpretation of this amendment. I dare say it seems to be one of the absolute least controversial parts of the constitution. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:36, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
I realised my error as to timekeeping, but got stymied by an edit conflict. As I said, you'd have to be nuts to wage a lawsuit over a few extra hours at most in office. But the OP's question still remains, have any academics written about this issue, from a purely theoretical perspective? Can anyone track anything down? Eliyohub (talk) 10:45, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
The theoretical issue is not just about extra hours in office; it's about making sure there is only one president at a time, for the whole country. (Compare with daylight-saving-time transitions where the clock changes at 2 am local time in each time zone, so there are periods when part of the country is on DST and part isn't.) --76.71.6.254 (talk) 00:44, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
  • I imagine a dispute between persons affected by the officer's last-minute act (or the incoming officer's early act), rather than over the officer's own interest. —Tamfang (talk) 08:49, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Recently there was an article on the second-longest serving president.[18] That is, of all the two full term presidents, which one technically served the longest in terms of total hours, for example. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:19, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
  • I think there's a legal boilerplate somewhere that means "All definitions are, by default, based on the timezone for Washington DC". This kicked off a further legal argument when daylight saving was introduced (and resisted) in 1942 because some opponents started to cause trouble in the house by raising fatuous questions as to who was paying for "the missing hour" of services like electricity transmission or railways. It was all a bit like the "Give us back our 11 days" riots over the Gregorian calendar. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:53, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
  • If any one group claims a right to mandate something, at least two will arise to oppose that. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:15, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
  • The capital district clause isn't relevant to a question about jurisdiction elsewhere, but the Standard of Measures is. —Tamfang (talk) 08:49, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Is gender bias a kind of cognitive bias?[edit]

Since gender is a mental construct, gender role is a mental construct too. A person is ascribed a particular gender based on primary and secondary sexual phenotype, so are gender role. So the very concept of gender role can be described as a cognitive bias? --IEditEncyclopedia (talk) 13:21, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

It's more complex than that. Cultural, social, emotional, mental, and physical characteristics are all part of what makes up gender, and the fact that they aren't all merely physical doesn't make them "invalid" or "not real". The fact that one's gender role is in part determined by societal context does not make that role invalid, per se. Mental does not mean "invalid". --Jayron32 13:29, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Your assumption sounds to me a bit like Lysenkoism which was promoted in the Soviet Union because it fitted in with the political ideology rather than being based on science. Exactly what is a 'mental construct' and how does that idea apply for instance to [19]? Sorry I thought this was the Science desk not the humanities desk. Dmcq (talk) 14:18, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Tinkerbell effect. --IEditEncyclopedia (talk) 16:08, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
In the book Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, Yuval Noah Harari argues Homo sapiens is the only species on earth that can cooperate flexibly in large numbers, because it has a unique ability to believe in things existing purely in its own imagination, such as supernatural creator, money, rights. Harari claims that all large scale human cooperation systems – including religions, political structures, trade networks – are ultimately based on fiction, i.e. mental constructs. Throughout the course of evolution, humans have developed abstract thought (humans are only animal to possess abstract though) which they utilize to imagine (mental construct) things like morality, norm, value, religion, political system etc. --IEditEncyclopedia (talk) 16:08, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Culture and society are also mental constructs, aren't they? --IEditEncyclopedia (talk) 16:10, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
See also Evolutionary_origin_of_religions#Morality_and_group_living --IEditEncyclopedia (talk) 16:15, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
In the animal kingdom, there are certainly roles by "gender", and it's unlikely the animals "decided" to create those roles. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:28, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Evolution. In humans too (humans are animals), it is evolution. --IEditEncyclopedia (talk) 16:32, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
If it's inherent, then it's not a social construct. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:34, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
My above comment was related to morality, not gender role. The problem here is that the traditional gender role of men as breadwinners and women as homemakers did not exist before the Neolithic Revolution. --IEditEncyclopedia (talk) 16:37, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
What preceded the Hunter-gatherer lifestyle? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:58, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Homo#Evolution and Archaic human admixture with modern humans. --IEditEncyclopedia (talk) 19:32, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
That's not true either. Social behavior also has evolutionary components. --Jayron32 16:51, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
If something is evolutionary, then it's inherent, not chosen. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:58, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
I found something interesting here Origins_of_society#Gender_and_origins --IEditEncyclopedia (talk) 17:06, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
And I am wondering what gender role Intersex people would be given by those who stick to the traditional male breadwinner-female homemaker dichotomy? --IEditEncyclopedia (talk) 19:29, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
If it may seem superficially perhaps geographically restricted, it's however traditional in this version of the lucky charm. --Askedonty (talk) 20:10, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

YAL[edit]

Is there any news coverage of the recent arrests of YAL leaders handing out pocket constitutions? Benjamin (talk) 13:43, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Which YAL are you talking about? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:46, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Also, when are you going to go back to the Misc ref desk and explain what you're trying to ask? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:48, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, Young Americans for Liberty. Now, do you have any sources, or are you just going to keep pestering me? Benjamin (talk) 13:58, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Have you searched Google to see if there's anything about it? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:00, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Here's something,[20] from a right-wing rag. Of course, they're complaining that they were being arrested for handing out copies of the Constitution, which is not true. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:04, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Yes, I searched, but I only found one. How did you find that one? Benjamin (talk) 14:15, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
I think the search was "young americans for liberty arrests". And as Nanonic notes, there isn't much. It's virtually a non-story. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:22, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, I found a bunch! For some reason, it seems they weren't showing up under news... Benjamin (talk) 14:41, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
I opened google.com. I entered the search term "young americans for liberty" arrest and selected News articles. I received 429 results. Of these only about 6 refer to arrests for handing out constitutions and these all relate to an incident in September 2016 which certainly cannot be classed as recent. It appears that the activities of Young Americans for Liberty are not significant enough for any meaningful press coverage. Nanonic (talk) 14:08, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
The head of YAL claimed that it was covered by several major news outlets. Benjamin (talk) 14:15, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Which ones did he say covered it? --Jayron32 14:59, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
these Benjamin (talk) 15:08, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
If you type the name of each of those newspapers, and the phrase "handing out constitutions", you'll find the original articles. Here is one example. You can remove "Washington Times" from that search and replace it with any of the others and you should get good results. It should be noted that every one of those news sources you just showed in that picture is considered to have a specific political perspective in their reporting and editorial perspective, c.f. Fox News. I would also seek out coverage from sources from a variety of political perspectives (including apolitical and middle-of-the-road sources) to get a fuller picture. --Jayron32 15:23, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Language peeve: cf. (Latin confer) means 'compare', not 'for example'; or are you saying that Fox News is a counterexample? And it takes only one dot. —Tamfang (talk) 09:12, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
The article I linked even says, "According to the college, they were in violation of school policy which states that students must get special permission before engaging in activism of any sort on campus, including distribution of literature." In short, they weren't actually arrested specifically for handing out copies of the Constitution. They're just a few nobodies trying to get publicity for themselves by creating a bogus issue. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:13, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
[21] (Reason), in which, to yank Bugs' chain, YAL's president says "these students did not expect to be arrested and that wasn't the purpose of their activity". —Tamfang (talk) 09:12, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Being right-wingers does not give them any special privilege to violate the school's rules. One thing about right-wingers is that they often cry "Law and order!" Until it's applied to them, and then they whine about being persecuted. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:27, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Is social class determined by income level or standard of living?[edit]

If a high-income person who makes a six-figure salary but finds satisfaction and a good quality of life in a minimalistic or low standard of living (living in one's car), then is this person upper class or lower class? What about college students who come from high-income households but their parents still want them to apply for financial aid? Will they be considered less needy, and in that case, can the parent temporarily disown the child so the child will not be legally seen as related to a high-income person, and then legally recognize the child for inheritance? 107.77.195.95 (talk) 16:39, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

See if Upper class answers some of your questions. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:54, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Social class has a lot of ways to be defined. The simplest way it is defined is by access to Power (social and political). Power means different things in different social contexts, as does what gives people access to that power. In no society is wealth by itself the sole determinant of one's social class, and in no society is wealth not part of the equation. Social class is also determined by non-economic factors such as access to political structures, access to social networks, acquired knowledge of social conventions of that class, etc. etc. One of the biggest criticisms of the American socio-political discourse is the overreliance on money as the sole determinant of class. This podcast from a few months back by the (surprisingly excellent for a "comedy" website) Cracked.com does a great job of explaining that exact problem. A great work on social class is Ruby K. Payne's book A Framework for Understanding Poverty, which while it does deal with economics, mainly deals with understand class from a social perspective.--Jayron32 17:19, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
I am wondering in which social class do academics, writers and activists belong to? Academics and writers might not be that popular as some influential journos. They might not have large amount of financial capital. But some academics, writers and activists, particularly those who have written widely reviewed books or have got media coverage, may leave legacy after their death including wikipedia page. --IEditEncyclopedia (talk) 18:22, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Under most understanding, they are clearly middle class. --Jayron32 19:17, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
What I am trying to say is that not all people leave behind a posthumous legacy. There are many billionaires, but few leave behind a legacy like Henry Ford. There are many writers, but few leave behind legacy like H. P. Lovecraft. In which social class people with posthumous legacy belong too? --IEditEncyclopedia (talk) 19:26, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure that "posthumous legacy" is a clearly delineated concept. Also, I'm not sure there is a bright line correlation between social class and what you might consider a "posthumous legacy". People of the slave class, often the lowest of the low in any society, have left posthumous legacy. See people like Nat Turner. I think that clearly, in general, access to power grants greater likelihood of leaving such a legacy; for example we have essentially a complete biography of every King of England, but almost no biography of the average 13th century Kentish shit-farmer. --Jayron32 19:32, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Posthumous people don't have a social class, as they are dead and have lost everything. Until that happens they are likely to vary in social and economic capital based on the things they do have (power, money, cultural and social capital, etc). One should be asking what social class their surviving relatives belong to, and how that happens. Another way to discuss social class is in terms of class mobility, or lack thereof: class stratification and life chances provide some relevant definitions. -- zzuuzz (talk) 19:44, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Well, that's a stupid distinction. They belonged to a social class when they were alive. Of course their corpses no longer belong to that class. I can't tell if you're being ironic or obtuse. --Jayron32 19:52, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
How can a legacy affect an individual? The value lies in the fact that they have publications, trusts, social capital, or whatever and not how they are going to be known in 50 or 800 years after their death. Their children on the other hand may be affected by a legacy. -- zzuuzz (talk) 19:59, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
Jayron, don't be abusive towards other contributors. StuRat (talk) 17:53, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Class is determined by your relation to the means of production. Most of the so-called middle class in the West, aren't, they are wage sla salaried employees (which would make them working class) who lead a middle class lifestyle (for now.) Intellectuals aren't a class but a stratum. The super-rich and the poor alike, are a rentier class who rent-seek off the middle and working classes and the 3rd World. Hope that helps. Asmrulz (talk) 06:57, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
  • A few other definitions: in England, the class system is - in part - based on your heritage. Nowadays, the upper middle class are in general richer and more powerful than the actual upper class, who are the people descended from titled nobility, and conversely, the angry young men were called working class, even though they were playwrights and authors with considerable cultural power, because they had been born into labouring families in industrial towns. Smurrayinchester 11:42, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
Agreed; the nouveau riche or parvenu refers to somebody who has acquired wealth and power, but lacks the manners and contacts (and perhaps pedigree) to integrate into a higher strata of British society. A bit of a dated concept, but even fairly recently the stuff of British sitcoms like Only Fools and Horses where the hero attends a shooting party at a stately home equipped with a pump-action shotgun. Not entirely a British thing either, who remembers The Beverly Hillbillies? Alansplodge (talk) 16:25, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
What kind of gun did everyone else bring? What kind of party was it? Fox hunt? Shooting at targets? Here in the states the upper class does hunt birds with shotguns at times. I don't know if it'd be uncultured to bring a pump action instead of a more expensive kind. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:09, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
It would have been shooting at game birds, most likely pheasants as other game birds need more skill (e.g. partridge and snipe) or specialised tactics (e.g. waterfowl) to which shooters of unknown ability would likely not be invited. Target shooting would not be an activity for which a shooting party would be organised, and shooting a fox with a shotgun at a fox hunt would be a barbarity no-one would ever contemplate (although a lone gamekeeper might legitimately ambush a fox with a rifle).
The de rigeur gun for a British shooting party would be a double-barrelled, single action shotgun. Note that, although receiving an invitation to a particular shooting party (which might include staying at the hosts' Manor house or Mansion for the weekend) might well depend on one's social class, pheasant shooting in general is not particularly class limited and all levels of (rural) society may take part in it, none of whom would use a pump-action shotgun. Del Boy's offense was against a particular sporting code rather than a class faux pas per se. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.12.94.189 (talk) 11:57, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
94.12.94.189, only because, being a Saturday, it was 'Iggy 'Iggins day off... O Fortuna!...Imperatrix mundi. 12:06, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure everyone gets the concept of restricting the gun used now that deer are shot with modern sporting rifles. Perhaps we'll have semi-automatic shot-guns soon. Anyhow in Britain even now one can "lift one's station" just by adopting a posh accent. Dmcq (talk) 12:49, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
The 5-shot Remington 11 recoil-operated semiauto shotgun was invented in 1898 AD. Millions of Remington 1100s have been sold since 1963. Its article begins "The Remington 1100 is a gas-operated semi-automatic shotgun, popular among sportsmen." Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:46, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Sinjar, Yazidis, U.S. intervention[edit]

Hi,

I'm looking for material regarding the 2014 Sinjar massacre and particularly the U.S. intervention in Iraq to protect the Yazidis in the region. Thanks!

GABgab 18:05, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Start with this:[22], [23], [24], [25]. 62.31.31.128 (talk) 16:55, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

1lib1ref[edit]

As of the end of the campaign, 1,232 revisions on 879 pages, by 327 users in 9 languages used the hashtag #1lib1ref in the edit summary with the total edit count estimated to be around 50% below the actual number. – This I find cery confusing – could somebody please explain what is supposed to be meant by the bold phrase? I think, this should also be stated more precisely in the article itself, by the way. Best regards--Hubon (talk) 18:57, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

The source it came from, which also explains the reasoning, is [[26]]. See the bottom part of the section "Outcomes by numbers". Loraof (talk) 19:28, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
@Loraof, thanks! But, in fact, I have to admit I still don't know if the current text is really comprehensible for the average reader... Best--Hubon (talk) 20:34, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
Then I would encourage you to be bold and reword it according to your understanding of the source! Loraof (talk) 20:36, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for your confidence, though I'm afraid I might not have understood the source linked by you totally correctly – at least my knowledge of English probably won't suffice to formulate a good and concise summary for the article (I'm not a native speaker...). Best--Hubon (talk) 20:53, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Orthodox Jewish hat boxes[edit]

[27] What are these called and where can I buy one? They're specially made for Charedi Jews' hats and fit onto a wheelie suitcase handle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amisom (talkcontribs) 19:35, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

It's just a travel hat box. Look up "travel hat box"; one example is [28]. I do like that that one is specifically Borsalino + Hebrew. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇 19:59, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

January 21[edit]

Judge cartoon[edit]

Can someone help me find this cartoon (Victor. "When We Annex Hawaii." Cartoon, color lithograph. [New York], Judge, c.1893. Hawai'i State Archives. Kahn Collection. Also at Bernice P. Bishop Museum. Drawer Ills. press. Negative no. CP103.873, slide no. XS 31.155. Honolulu, Hawai'i) in the Judge magazines [29]? I look through the 1893 issues but can't find it. It could be in the other years as well from 1893 to 1898 but I can't seem to find just leaving through.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:28, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

How did food surplus create class division?[edit]

Since humans subsisted by hunting and gathering during the Paleolithic, there was no surplus food. After the Neolithic Revolution, agricultural surplus was created. According to Neolithic_Revolution#Consequence, surplus food production gave rise to class division: "Food surpluses made possible the development of a social elite who were not otherwise engaged in agriculture, industry or commerce, but dominated their communities by other means and monopolized decision-making."

Lets try to visualize this. There is an island with 100 inhabitants. They lived a hunter and gatherer lifestyle, suddenly they discovered how to grow rice. To cultivate, they needed tools. 25 of them worked all the day to grow rice. 25 of them worked to make the tools. 40 of them decided to protect the surplus food. 10 of them decided to supervise the entire territory and operation. They monopolized decision-making and forced their decision on others.

My questions is: Why would food surplus cause class division? Is it because food surplus resulted in conflict over the surplus and necessitated the creation of an oversight class and a professional worrier class? The oversight class would manage the resources with the help of the worrier class to prevent random conflict over resources? --IEditEncyclopedia (talk) 12:13, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

One problem with your example is that, historically, you had agriculturalists and hunter-gatherers (if not fisher-folk as well) living in the same place. Throw that on top of the divisions you suggest, and things get even hairier. Add in the possibility that someone figures out that if the stars are in a particular arrangement (because of their natural shift during the seasons), crops grow better than at other times of the year, and you've got yet another possible class division or means of enforcing class division. Still, sticking to just your example, I have to raise the possibility of farms not being communal. If someone's crops do really well one year, they will be more secure during lean times (putting his neighbors at his mercy) and able to plant more crops next year (increasing their chances of having another good harvest). Ian.thomson (talk) 13:04, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
[Edit Conflict] It may not necessarily cause class division, but it may enable it. Hunter-gatherers with no surplus mostly all have to do the same "work" (caveats follow), so no-one appears more "important" than anyone else (other than through family relationships), but the surplus enables specialisation (your toolmakers, etc.) which can lead to bigger surpluses (which is how "civilization" gets started) and once such differences appear, stratification will likely arise simply from individuals' differing personal levels of ambition.
Caveats: Even hunter-gatherers may have religious specialists resembling shaman, whose unusual position might lead to elevated status leading to "upper-classness", and hunter-gatherer societies are seemingly capable of considerable religiously oriented building feats, such as Göbekli Tepe, whose construction must surely have required some senior organisers.
Hopefully, a qualified sociologist will soon show up to give some better-informed commentary. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.12.94.189 (talk) 13:17, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
The short version is that food surpluses create the free time for other folks to do things beside hunt and forage, including creating 'luxury' goods (which, in anthropology, does not refer to sports cars, but any goods which are not purely utilitarian). Food surpluses also allows people to stay in one place (or perhaps it only occurs once people start staying in the same place - it probably varies in different areas). Hunter-gatherers do not have strong centralized leaders in part because the person leading the band at any given time has only his powers of persuasion to enforce them. However, once luxury goods are available, someone can horde those treasures and, because the group is now more permanently settled, this hording is not limited by what you care to lug about with you. In other words, people can accumulate wealth. Matt Deres (talk) 04:51, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, just to continue from that: The accumulation of wealth and particularly the ownership of land, which food surpluses create/enhance, is the mechanism that creates social classes. When everybody has the same level of goods and land and everybody does the same kind of work (as you would see in small-band hunter-gatherers), you get simple egalitarianism (in the sense that wealth doesn't need to be distributed in order to be achieved - nobody owns anything). It's only after things can be owned that people begin to divide into the 'haves' and the 'have nots' (i.e. social stratification). Matt Deres (talk) 14:06, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Bibliography book[edit]

what was the fist Bibliography book?--2001:B07:6463:31EE:F5B9:ACFC:2A54:A5FC (talk) 14:34, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Your question is hard to answer because the term bibliography is applied to several types of work. One candidate might be Callimachus' Pinakes. Deor (talk) 19:33, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Rory of the Hills[edit]

If I understand correctly this folktale Rory from p. 216 is the same as Rory of the Hills. Is he also the same Rory mentioned in the poem "The Irish Rapparees; a Peasant Ballad"? And was he actually Rory O'Moore? Looks like we don't have Rory of the Hills. Brandmeistertalk 21:20, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

This might be properly be included as a fictional character on the page for the name Rory if it links to an existing page, or on Talk:Rory if not. -- Deborahjay (talk) 18:00, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Squares for protesting[edit]

Tahrir Square in Cairo, Egypt and Rabin Square in Tel Aviv, Israel are known for having people protesting for particular issue like anti-government and housing problem. What other squares in the world are known for having people protesting? Donmust90 (talk) 23:40, 21 January 2017 (UTC)Donmust90Donmust90 (talk) 23:40, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Wenceslas Square, Taksim Square ... A lot of cities (and a lot of capital cities), have one or several squares where a number of public gatherings of that sort have been held. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:23, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Tiananmen Square, sadly. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:49, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Trafalgar Square, London; Place de la Concorde, Paris; Palace Square, St. Petersburg; Syntagma Square, Athens; Maidan Nezalezhnosti, Kiev; Azadi Square, Tehran. Sources: [30] [31]. --Antiquary (talk) 09:41, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Let's not forget the National Mall, Washington, DC; also Plaza de Mayo in Buenos Aires. --Xuxl (talk) 15:44, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Does LA or Chicago have one? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:35, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
I suspect many of Category:National squares, since they are " the nation's center of ceremonial activity", may also play host to protests. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 22:33, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Anyone else think this category would be even more useful with an intermediate subcategory and page reassignments: National squares by country? -- Deborahjay (talk) 08:07, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

January 22[edit]

In what era was the developed world's imports from the developing the highest percent of the latter's GDP?[edit]

Before decolonization? Or later, when this part of the world gained more manufacturing? If the percent's still rising is it expected to decrease when rising standards of living causes the developing world to buy enough of its own production (i.e. India using its own call centers or buying Brazilian Embraer's) or will the peak likely be when country X flips to developed according to whatever authority you're using causing a downward discontinuity in the average GDP:sustenance-level GDP of the remainder? Might one of these flips be the peak, maybe in the unforeseeably far future? (international trade as a whole is still rising I think) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:53, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

A general answer to your question would seem to require a very large amount of research, but here's one particular case: It's notorious among some that India was exporting cotton cloth to Britain in the 18th century, but with mechanization/industrialization in Britain and colonial policies which discouraged cloth production in India, it ended up importing cotton cloth from Britain during the majority of the 19th century. Gandhi's "homespun" movement was partly about this. There's little bit about this at articles Muslin and Khadi... AnonMoos (talk) 10:37, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Monotheism and Plato[edit]

I've been re-reading Plato's dialogues and one thing that puzzles me is that in some places Socrates talks of "God" as opposed to "the Gods". So for example in Ion he is talking about where inspiration for poets comes from he says "and therefor God takes away the minds of poets, and uses them as his ministers" and "For in this way God would seem to indicate to us and not allow us to doubt that those beautiful poems are not human or the work of man but divine and the work of God" (this is in the free Guttenberg Kindle translation). I recall many passages like this in what I've read in the past as well and I've always wondered about it. Are these examples just Christian translators loosely translating "the divine" or "the Gods" into "God" or was Plato actually in some sense an advocate for monotheism? --MadScientistX11 (talk) 17:06, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Does this help? Matt Deres (talk) 18:49, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
There is no indefinite article in Greek - "God does this" could just as correctly be translated as "a god does this" (and in the context of a polytheistic religion, probably should be). Wymspen (talk) 22:15, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
In Jewish and Christian usage, at least, the ancient Greek word θεος was often preceded by the definite article (ὁ in nominative singular) when referring to monotheistic God (as in the Septuagint of Genesis 1:1)... AnonMoos (talk) 10:10, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
In this particular passage, which you can see starting here on Perseus, he does say "ὁ θεὸς", "the god". He mentions Dionysus just before that, but since he is talking about the Muses here, "the god" probably means Apollo. He mentions "the gods" in general further on in the passage. Adam Bishop (talk) 10:30, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Use of genealogy books among persons of Korean descent in North America[edit]

Do persons of Korean descent living in the United States and Canada typically have lists of their descendants recorded in jokbo (genealogy books)? If so, does this practice vary depending on whether or not they have married other individuals of Korean descent?--129.97.124.217 (talk) 21:14, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Do you mean ancestors?Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:55, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Either one, I guess. My intent in asking was to find out whether these books continue to be updated with information on the ancestors and descendants of individuals who immigrate to North America, or whether such individuals are left out of the genealogies.--2620:101:F000:702:E95A:4E1:A6A5:9CFA (talk) 22:29, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Specifically, if a Korean person were to immigrate to the United States, marry an American, and have children, would this information typically be recorded in a genealogy book? And would the situation be different if they married a fellow Korean immigrant, or a descendant of one?--129.97.125.27 (talk) 22:37, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Immigrate or emigrate? There could well be a difference between records kept in Korea of emigrants (it's an established practice, but do they care about those who leave?), and records kept in the US of immigrants from "the old country" (has the practice travelled?). Andy Dingley (talk) 02:56, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
An answer to either of those questions would be of interest.--129.97.124.217 (talk) 04:20, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

January 23[edit]

What are the Guidelines for Government Classification in Wikipedia?[edit]

I see, for example, the text "Unitary parliamentary constitutional monarchy" in the sidebar for Sweden. It looks as if there is are strict formal structural or procedural guidelines on how to name the type of government of each country. I say this, instead of suggesting that one look at how each country describes itself, because the text for government mentioned above seems not to be very comprehensible to a swede. I was hoping that you could point me to these guidelines. Star Lord - 星爵 (talk) 07:44, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

These are standard terms from political science - for example, see the textbook Politics in Europe. To break it down:
  • "Unitary" means that Sweden is governed as a single country (rather than a federation of states, like the USA or Germany).
  • "Parliamentary" means that the executive power of government (in other words, the power to actually make things happen) rests with the legislature (the Riksdag) rather than with a president (presidential system, like in the USA) or being split between the two (semi-presidential system, like in France or Russia).
  • "Constitutional monarchy" means that the country has a royal family but their political power is very limited (compared to a republic like Ireland or the USA, which doesn't have any royals, or an absolute monarchy like Saudi Arabia where the royal family has a lot of political power).
Apart from this, there are also some odd outliers like one-party states, military dictatorships and failed states with no effective government. Template:Systems of government gives a good overview of the systems and where each country fits. Smurrayinchester 08:59, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Smurrayinchester, thank you very much indeed for the explanation. Personally, I do understand the terms and I am with you. I have also encountered the terms when reading political science - about 35 years ago :) . Unfortunately, me saying that they are standard terms in political science, would not be enough. I was hoping that there were some guidelines inside Wikipedia for using these, to the exclusion of other systems that I have encountered. Such guidelines in wikipedia would feel like a better source. I am sure the book you refer to is excellent, but it is hard to refer to a book which I have neither read, nor seen any review of, even in wikipedia. Star Lord - 星爵 (talk) 10:14, 23 January 2017 (UTC)


Official wiki-social-media[edit]

Have there been any attempts at making a large official wiki-social-media place like facebook? If so, could you please direct me to where one might sign up? Star Lord - 星爵 (talk) 10:17, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Your question is very unclear, Star Lord - 星爵. How would a wiki social media site work? Or when you say 'wiki', do you actually mean "Wikipedia" (which is one of thousands and thousands of wikis)? --ColinFine (talk) 11:27, 23 January 2017 (UTC)