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June 16[edit]


looking for antonyms of "control" (talk) 04:52, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

You've been provided links to thesaurus websites in your prior questions about antonyms. Are these sites not giving you the answers you want? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:39, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Louis Pierre Vossion[edit]

Recueil. Îles Hawaï. I. Histoire. Documents iconographiques rassemblés par Louis Pierre Vossion, Vue 62.jpg

Can someone help me translate the handwritten texts in this image? Please place in the image description as well. Is Louis Pierre Vossion in the assembled group?--AlohaKavebear (talk) 06:24, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

- Îles Hawaï - Mgr Gulstan Ropert, des Sacrés-Coeurs de Picpus, est depuis 37 ans dans les îles. Il fut l'ami du R.P. Damien, martyr. - L'évêque catholique d'Honolulu - le doyen des Missionnaires (58 ans dans les îles). Le chef de la Division Navale du Pacifique et l'Etat-Major du Croiseur Français Duguay-Trouin, Nov. 1898 - (L. Vossion (?) Consul de France (?). Akseli9 (talk) 06:49, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
Wrong ship - must be French cruiser Duguay-Trouin (1873) for which we have no article. Rmhermen (talk) 12:01, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
No, Louis Vossion is not on the picture. Perhaps he's the one who took the picture? Akseli9 (talk) 06:54, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
The name of the file is "Documents iconographiques rassemblés par Louis Pierre Vossion", i.e."pictorial documents assembled by Louis Pierre Vossion". So, the picture may simply have come into his possession in his role as French consul. --Xuxl (talk) 12:35, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

"centralized" antonym[edit]

i often hear "decentralized" computing etc. but isnt there an antonym to "centralized" without using a prefix? (talk) 10:48, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

"Distributed"? Fut.Perf. 10:54, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
"Dis-" is a prefix. Rojomoke (talk) 11:53, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
Not in its English usage. Distribute comes from the Latin distribuere, where the dis- is a prefix (meaning "asunder"). But in English you can't knock off the prefix and have a sensible verb - to tribute, anyone? Phil Holmes (talk) 14:54, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
How about "localized"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:39, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
Or regionalized. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:33, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
See: Distributed computing2606:A000:4C0C:E200:8C81:A23:E9F2:E55E (talk) 15:42, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "eighth"[edit]

In everyday speech, we simply say it to rhyme with faith. However, a few Wikipedia articles say that this word is property pronounced with a t+th. Any sources saying that this is still the standard pronunciation?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:59, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't have sources to hand, but I can certainly report that I pronounce it /eɪtθ/ even in fast speech. --Trovatore (talk) 19:12, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
Ditto on pronunciation. I checked four dictionaries, all giving /eɪtθ/, none giving /eɪθ/. I'm not sure I've ever heard /eɪθ/. -- Elphion (talk) 19:33, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
(added) American Heritage gives both pronunciations. -- Elphion (talk) 19:39, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
Wiktionary gives both for the US but not for Britain. Loraof (talk) 20:14, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
The only pronunciation I have commonly heard in England has the t+th sound. If I heard it as ryming with faith, I would assume that someone with a lisp was trying to say "ace" Wymspen (talk) 20:01, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Must be a regional thing. I only pronounce it to rhyme with faith. (I grew up in upstate New York and upstate South Carolina.) Loraof (talk) 20:14, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
The only pronunciation I have ever heard in America has the t+th sound (U.S. south central, southwest, midwest, west). —Stephen (talk) 20:20, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
Here in the UK, only /eɪtθ/ is correct (per OED). No-one would rhyme it with faith unless they had a speech impediment or possibly were speaking very quickly. Dbfirs 20:46, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
(Detroit) I also pronounce it the "t+th" way. However, note that it may not be easy to hear the diff, so that if somebody hears it in childhood as just "th", they may start to say it that way, especially before they see how it's spelled. Same with similar words, like "heighth" (although "height" is more formal). StuRat (talk) 21:54, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
There is no such word as "heighth". Height is not simply formal, it's the only version. Unless you're an American, and then anything goes. Akld guy (talk) 22:24, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
Actually, some Cockneys say ""heighth" - it's used in A Clockwork Orange (the book): "dressed in the very heighth of fashion" [1]. But you're correct, it's incorrect. Alansplodge (talk) 01:04, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
Being from Detroit, that would make me a 'merkin. :-) StuRat (talk) 22:50, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
Do you even comprehend what you were attempting to do? That is, mislead the unwitting reader not proficient in English that "heighth" is merely an alternative to the correct "height". You are either an uncaring idiot or one of those Americans bent on perverting everything in the rest of the world to the American way. I strongly suspect you are not an idiot. So stop with the misleading. There are rules in English. Your localized perversion used by a tiny fraction of the world's population is no substitute for what the rules of English say. Akld guy (talk) 03:14, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
So Americans may make up a small percentage of the world's population — but something close to two thirds of native English speakers. That said, "heighth" is not standard in American English either, so even if we did want to make the world speak AmE, it wouldn't include "heigth". --Trovatore (talk) 07:42, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
I did not include all Americans in "tiny fraction of the world's population". Did you take the time to read what I wrote and ponder it for a moment or two, or just jump to a kneejerk defensive reaction? Akld guy (talk) 00:15, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
It may not be standard in the UK these days, but the OED gives it a British history going back to the 13th century:
c1290 S. Eng. Leg. I. 266/190 Fram þe eorþe heo was op i-houe þe heiȝþe of fet þreo.
Later examples cited:
1667 Milton Paradise Lost viii. 413 To attaine The highth and depth of thy Eternal wayes.
1673 J. Ray Observ. Journey Low-countries 76 Stakes or Poles of about a mans highth.
1809 J. Roland Amateur of Fencing 22 It depends on the person's heighth.
1890 J. D. Robertson Gloss. Words County of Gloucester Hecth, height.
--Antiquary (talk) 09:05, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
And on checking the British Newspaper Archive I find they break down the number of hits for heighth like this:
1700-1749: 58
1750-1799: 685
1800-1849: 1101
1850-1899: 1310
1900-1949: 610
1950-1999: 23
Difficult to draw statistically meaningful results from that without knowing how many newspapers they looked at in each period, but at any rate it looks like heighth was not too uncommon in British English up to the early 20th century. --Antiquary (talk) 09:40, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
And I find over 5 million Ghits for heighth. Far less than height, but still rather significant usage. That, along with the historic usage, would seem to qualify it as a "variant, now chiefly AmE". StuRat (talk) 12:26, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Am I correct in saying this is the only English word where "th" is pronounced /tθ/? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 01:48, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
Don't know, but no counterexample comes to mind. Actually I can't even think of another example of the /tθ/ cluster, with any spelling. Seems like it ought to be spelled eigtth. --Trovatore (talk) 02:22, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
If you mean with minimal departure from current standard spelling conventions, it should be "eightth"... AnonMoos (talk) 02:54, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
Whoops, right. I thought something looked funny but couldn't find it. --Trovatore (talk) 03:23, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
Naughth?--Wikimedes (talk) 15:01, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
While the words width and breadth are spelt with -dth, I think the pronunciation is /tθ/. —Stephen (talk) 22:25, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
Where I come from, the "d" in those words is enunciated. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:28, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
Agreed, who says "with" and "breath" for those words ? StuRat (talk) 12:23, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Probably the same ones who say "strenth" instead of "strength". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:31, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Regardless, even if these words were spoken that way (which they're not), this would not be a counter-example for my question. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:53, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
True. For that matter, how many English words end in "hth"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:01, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
The answer appears to be 13, with 9 of them being words ending in "eighth" and the other 4 being non-standard spellings as discussed earlier.[2]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:10, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Joining the chorus: We do not rhyme it with faith in Western Canada, either. t-th is it. Mingmingla (talk) 02:10, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
Midwest: we say eight-th, although we've heard eigh-th in some regions. We also sometimes hear height-th rather than height, but that's considered a hick expression. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:40, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
  • I, an AMERICKAN, and say eight-th, but I have heard eith. 14:57, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

By the way, "eighth" is pronounced as if spelled "eightth", while "Matthew" is pronounced as if spelled "Mathew"... SFriendly.gif -- AnonMoos (talk) 09:53, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Now, that is an interesting observation. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 11:24, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
The origin of Matthew/Mathew may help.[3]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:30, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
"Here in the UK, only /eɪtθ/ is correct (per OED)", says somebody above. I don't think that the OED is designed to be, or should be, used in this way. The OED doesn't purport to be a guide to how all non-trivial British groups of L1 English speakers say words both deliberately and rapidly. I think I say /eɪtθ/ but I wouldn't be at all surprised if an analysis of my actual output revealed that I sometimes said /eɪθ/. As for other words with the /tθ/ cluster, I suspect that my commonest pronunciation of "width" is /wɪtθ/. I'm not even sure that a true [wɪdθ] is possible for monoglot L1 English speakers; but the distinction (if any) between relevant allomorphs of /t/ and /d/ can be problematic. More.coffy (talk) 05:04, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

June 18[edit]

"pendejera" (Venezuelan slang?)[edit]

  1. 2017 June 16, “Parecemos, pero no somos, y si fuimos, no somos más”, in El Nacional[4]:
    Así se hace cómplice necesario y responsable del intento desesperado para engañar, confiando en que esos millones de ciudadanos hambreados, maltratados, gaseados, apaleados y reprimidos, incluidos los pocos maduristas que reverencian sin cavilar, síntoma clarísimo de pendejera vocacional, van a tragarse semejante fábula retorcida sin aviso ni protesto.

What does this mean? "Pendejera" is the name of the plant Solanum torvum according to es.wikipedia but that doesn't seem to be the meaning here. DTLHS (talk) 02:07, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

This source translates "pendejera" as: cowardice, unmanliness ... lack of character, namby-pambiness2606:A000:4C0C:E200:8C81:A23:E9F2:E55E (talk) 03:20, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
I wonder whether that source applies to Venezuelan colloquial Spanish though. Obviously, pendejera is derived from "pendejo". That Wiktionary entry lists various meanings, and "coward" is attributed to various countries, but not to Venezuela which is specifically listed for only one meaning there: "dickhead (stupid person)". Similarly, Spanish Wiktionary only mentions Venezuela for the meaning "falto de inteligencia, entendimiento o astucia".[5] In this Chilean article the Venezuelan linguist Maylen Sosa explains the Venezuelan connotations of "pendejo", "a mild insult to disqualify someone". Perhaps I'd translate "pendejera vocacional" as "vocational stupidity" or "vocational dickheadery", but not "vocational cowardice" ---Sluzzelin talk 09:34, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

German translation of a Kennedy quote[edit]

Could somebody give me a good German translation of the following phrase from this speech by Kennedy: "yet both racing to alter that uncertain balance of terror that stays the hand mankind's final war" — What would be the most literal equivalent to hand here?--Erdic (talk) 19:23, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

First thought: I do not think it will be done with just translating "hand" here....the whole sentence would be something like "stay your hand, knave" e.g....with the meaning of "am Handeln gehindert sein, werden". Lectonar (talk) 19:32, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
One translation found in several books [6] has "das den Ausbruch des letzten Krieges der Menschheit noch hemmt" (for "that stays the hand of mankind's final war"). This seems a fairly decent translation. What makes the phrase difficult to understand (to German non-native speakers of English) is maybe not so much the meaning of "hand", but the transitive use of stay in the sense of "keep sth. back". Fut.Perf. 20:18, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
I found it difficult to understand too, but the JFK Library confirms that you've lost an "of" in that quote; "stays the hand of mankind's final war" makes more sense. Alansplodge (talk) 20:30, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Thank you all very much — now I do see the sense! Best--Erdic (talk) 19:11, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

June 19[edit]

Job descriptions[edit]

In the last century, the Surveyor of the Fabric of Westminster Abbey was Doctor Donald Buttress, while the Archbishop of Manila was Cardinal Sin. Do people's surnames influence their choice of occupation? (talk) 09:53, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

See Nominative determinism. Rojomoke (talk) 23:31, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Translation from Arabic - 'sabih'[edit]

What does it 'sabih' (or something like that) mean? I don't know how it's written in Arabic. I know it can be a given name, but it should also have meaning as a word. -- (talk) 11:20, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Probably Sabeeh. HOTmag (talk) 14:39, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
This wikt:صبيح.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 17:23, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Danish or Norwegian?[edit]

I have a citation as follows:

Indberetning om en stipendierejse til England for at studere Gouins metode for undervisning i sprog (Quousque Tandem No. = Norske univ. og skoleannaler, 1894

Google guesses the the first part to be Danish, and the second ("Norske univ. og skoleannaler,") to be Norwegian. Assuming the question makes sense for an 1894 text, which language are these really? Thanks, HenryFlower 12:58, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm Danish. "Quousque Tandem" is Latin. "No." is not a Danish abbreviation but may in some contexts be used instead of "nr." (number, Danish: nummer). Everything else including "Norske univ. og skoleannaler" is valid current Danish (univ. must be short for universitets). I don't think it's valid current Norwegian but I don't know about 1894. Norway was Danish for centuries until 1814 and the languages are very similar. See Languages of Norway#Norwegian language struggle. "Norske" means Norwegian which may be why Google guesses Norwegian. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:16, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
No. may not be a Danish abbreviation, but it is a perfectly good Latin one for numero, which makes sense as part of the Latin phrase. Wymspen (talk) 14:30, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
Also see Numero sign. Lectonar (talk) 14:33, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
Thanks all (especially PrimeHunter) -- that's very helpful. :) HenryFlower 15:45, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

what's the rule?[edit]

Do you say

Do the same things that the parents do.


Do the same things as the parents do? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 17:42, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Both those expressions are valid but both are rather clumsy. It is not necessary to repeat "do". It would be better to say "Do the same as the parents". Also "the parents" sounds rather odd as it is not clear whose parents are being referred to. It would be more usual to hear "Do the same as your (his, her) parents".--Mrs Wibble-Wobble (talk) 18:25, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
This is a matter of opinion; I prefer the original versions. I don't have a source for this, but I have the impression that British people are more likely to prefer the shorter versions. -- (talk) 22:02, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
I don't agree with your last comment. Check: The grandparents "do the same as the parents". HOTmag (talk) 21:46, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
I think you are trying to combine two phrases, each of which is quite clear, and thereby causing some grammatical confusion. Either say "Do the things that your parents do" or "do the same as your parents do" - you don't actually need to say "the same things" Wymspen (talk) 07:50, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

How to pronounce the word "Jesuism"[edit]

I was just reading the Wikipedia article called "Jesuism" but can't seem to find out in any of my searches how that word is pronounced. Just wondering if that info could be included, please. Or, would you happen to know of any other site where the pronunciation is given?

Many thanks! ~ Coleyna — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coleyna (talkcontribs) 22:14, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

A non-IPA representation might be written as "JEZ-you-izm". Wictionary's entry lacks a pronunciation, and the word isn't in my (paper) copy of the OED. Anyone? {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 00:32, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
If "Jesuism" refers to the "Jesuits", the corresponding pronunciation should be "JEZ-oo-ism". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:27, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
... but it doesn't. That would be Jesuitism, pronounced /ˈdʒɛzjuːɪˌtɪz(ə)m/ according to the OED. Dbfirs 15:42, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
So "Jeez-u-ism" after the pronunciation of Jesus? That doesn't sound right to me. DTLHS (talk) 16:50, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
Note that this is a word that could be eligible for Trisyllabic laxing, so it would not be surprising if the first syllable were /dʒɛz/. However, there are exceptions to that rule, so it could also be /dʒi:z/, or both pronunciations may exist in free variation.

June 20[edit]

"Spare oneself sth"[edit]

Hello, would you say "You could have spared [or saved?] yourself that!" or rather "You could have spared that yourself!"? Best--Erdic (talk) 19:14, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

In the sense that you need not have put yourself through some difficulty, you would say "You could have spared yourself that." The other phrase is perfectly correct grammar - but means something quite different: you have something that you don't need and could have done without it when it was needed, but chose to hang on to it rather than letting it be used. Wymspen (talk) 19:31, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
Thank you, Wymspen! But wouldn't you then rather leave out "yourself" for the second meaning?--Erdic (talk) 19:43, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
Yes; in that context yourself more likely means ‘you rather than (or as well as) someone else’, rather than a reflexive sense. —Tamfang (talk) 20:26, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
You could leave out the "yourself" in the second example - but it perhaps serves to emphasise the selfishness. It seems to imply not just that you could have provided what was required, but that you required someone else to provide it even though you could have done it yourself. I accept that the distinctions are rather subtle - as a well educated Englishman I accept that I may read things into a text that not everyone would spot, or even intend in writing it. Wymspen (talk) 21:36, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
Many thanks for your clarification! Kind regards--Erdic (talk) 08:56, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Erdic, when a ditransitive verb is followed by two arguments without a preposition, the first is the indirect argument (recipient, or beneficiary) and the second the object; so "spare that yourself" cannot have the required meaning, as Wymspen says, Usually there is an alternative form with a preposition and the arguments reversed ("give me the book" = "give the book to me"), but ditransitive "spare" doesn't have this alternative: there is no *"spare that to/from/for yourself" --ColinFine (talk) 11:06, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Thank you very much, too!--Erdic (talk) 14:48, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

June 21[edit]

Translation from German needed[edit]

Hello everybody! Since I am admittedly a bit stuck here with my recent investigation, I would like to give it a try and ask you for a nice translation of the sentence "lass dich von seinem Gerede auf keinen Fall zu irgendeinem Unsinn hinreißen!". I marked the parts that matter to me most. Hoping for your kind support,--Erdic (talk) 09:23, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

PS: Please feel free to also correct my enquiry as such if you find any mistakes. Thanks a lot in advance!--Erdic (talk) 09:25, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Not a native speaker, so someone may correct me, but a translation would be something like "Don't under any circumstances let his gossip draw you into doing something stupid". --Xuxl (talk) 12:56, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Native speaker: The above suggestion is perfectly valid. My version would be: 'Don´t let yourself (or: don´t allow yourself to) be tricked into some nonsense by his verbiage. Depending on the context there may be better alternatives. Clearly, this is direct speech in a fairly colloquial mode where vocabulary & semantics are both subjective and fuzzy. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 14:38, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

German–American-English online dictionary?[edit]

Hello, I have a somewhat fundamental question: Is there any German–American-English [online] dictionary on the market? What do professional American translators use? I'm asking here because up to now, I couldn't manage to find anything of that kind yet. Best--Erdic (talk) 22:56, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

June 22[edit]

V NP = V P NP[edit]

Either (A) "The strike lasted two weeks" means the same as "The strike lasted for two weeks" or (B) the difference in meaning is so subtle that I'm not consciously aware of it.

For can't always be used with LAST: "Those shoes should last for till you're 50", for example, is ungrammatical. But most of the time, for seems optional.

It's hard to come up with verb-plus-preposition combinations* where the preposition is similarly unnecessary. FORGET about is one. (When I skimread examples of "forget about" at COCA and mentally remove the "about", the resulting sentences are good and mean the same; similarly, when I skimread COCA's examples of "forget the" and mentally insert "about", the resulting sentences are good and mean the same.)

I can't think of any reason why anyone would compile a list of verb plus preposition sequences in which the preposition is, usually, entirely optional. So there probably is no such list. But does anyone here know of one, or can anyone think of a way in which I could generate such a list without laborious introspection?

* Such a description of course doesn't reflect the structure (PP versus simple NP), but I'm trying to avoid technicalities that aren't needed here.

More.coffy (talk) 05:39, 22 June 2017 (UTC)