Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 June 3

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June 3[edit]

According to the Bible, from where will the anti-Christ hail?[edit]

I thought I remember reading something about him being expected to hail from the region of the Caucasus Mountains, but am having trouble finding references. Thanks.--CDwJ94ZD (talk) 00:21, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

My experience from watching articles to do with Obama is that many Republicans think he will come from the Democratic Party and be black. I reckon I've reverted around 20 edits of that nature. Naturally other editors have had to revert many too. So that must be what the Republican Party version of the Bible says. HiLo48 (talk) 00:33, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure that political diatribes are a terribly helpful way to answer the question. The phrase Antichrist only appears in the Epistles of John from the bible, though it does not describe a single personality, but rather any false messiah. Because those epistles are also ascribed to the author of the Book of Revelation, which is book of eschatology (i.e. end times), it is sometimes seen that a character from that book called the "False Prophet" in most translations may be "The Antichrist", but that's really conjecture as nothing in Revelation uses that term. Even if the False Prophet character is The Antichrist, the Revelation does not give any geography to where he comes from. He's only mentioned directly a few times, and usually as part of a triumvirate of enemies, "The Dragon", "The Beast", and "The False Prophet", for example Revelation 16:13. If there are any traditions that ascribe a specific Antichrist as coming from a specific geographic region, they are definitely extrabiblical. --Jayron32 00:46, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
That wasn't a political diatribe on my part. It was an observation. It can even be proven true if anyone can be bothered searching my edit history. I'm not American so don't even get to vote. I just find politics interesting. I also watched Romney's pages during the most recent election, and removed a lot of stupid dross from there too, but nothing about the Anti-Christ. That seemed a particularly anti-Obama phenomenon. So someone must teach that he is the anti-Christ. HiLo48 (talk) 01:09, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
People say all kinds of batshit insane things, it isn't necessarily helpful to bring all of them up when trying to answer a good-faith question by the OP. --Jayron32 02:01, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
To echo Jayron32, to take 20 or 200 edits and ascribe them to one of the major political parties representing 10s of millions of people is kind of like some out there painting all of us Wikipedians with one brush as things that will go unmentioned here, but then again we don't deserve that unless of course we are calling out 10s or 100s to represent 10s of millions. Market St.⧏ ⧐ Diamond Way 10:12, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Don't be so defensive. It's real. There are people out there who wanted to label Obama as the anti-Christ. I don't know why. But they did. They almost certainly DID vote Republican too. I don't know what it proves, but it happened. Oh, and again, nobody labelled Romney the anti-Christ. (He copped plenty of other stupid rubbish.) I'd be interested in why anybody would call Obama the anti_Christ. Any ideas? HiLo48 (talk) 10:18, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Who's defensive? Just a friendly chat! Market St.⧏ ⧐ Diamond Way 14:15, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Cool. But why this tiny concentration of fools wanting to label Obama as the anti-Christ? Is it simply racism? Is there some dogma in one of the less mainstream religious groups that would drive it? HiLo48 (talk) 18:29, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
It starts with the hate, then comes the search for external justification for that hate. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:36, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
For sure, the "outs" often say crazy things about the "ins". There were some who said President Ronald Wilson Reagan was the anti-Christ, because each of his three names had six letters. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:16, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Jayron32, BB, et al here. There were people who labelled (W) Bush the antichrist too. Perhaps less common but a search easily finds similar labels for Bill Clinton, and Hillary. I'm sure you can find some for HW Bush as well. And evidently the throne may pass direct from Elizabeth II to William the reincarnation of Arthur the antichrist [[1]. none of this seems very useful to the OP. Nil Einne (talk) 22:55, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
The reference you heard to the Antichrist originating in the Caucasus Mountains is probably related to a misguided attempt to read the Gog and Magog of Hebrew Bible prophecies as analogous to the Soviet Union (later, the Russian Federation). One particularly egregious miscarriage of linguistics identifies Meshech and Tubal, purported to be allied with Gog and Magog against the Messiah, as Moscow and Tbilisi, respectively. As a sidenote, Jayron, it's actually the Beast out of the Sea that is typically identified as the Antichrist, at least in the forms of Protestantism I'm familiar with, while the "False Prophet" is seen as (in essence) his right-hand man. The Dragon is identified almost universally as Satan, and is in fact explicitly called such in Revelation 20:2.
And, while the Johannine epistles do not make explicit reference to one Antichrist, 1 John 2:18 seems to make reference to a prevailing belief at the time that there would be one great deceiver, as it were. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 02:32, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
I stand corrected on that. The fact does remain that Revelation does not actually mention the word Antichrist, though that figure often shows up in "standard" Christian eschatalogical thinking, and that it does take several leaps of logic to connect any such figure to any known geography. --Jayron32 02:57, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Yep. The short answer to the OP's question is that the Bible says very little about anyone explicitly called the Antichrist, and precisely nothing about where he comes from. Interestingly enough, lest anyone think the idea is constrained specifically to Christianity, there is also the Jewish Armilus, though whether or not those traditions are connected in any way to the Christian conception of an Antichrist is a point of contention. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 03:04, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Evanh2008 -- "Gog" only occurs in quasi-apocalyptic contexts in the Bible, but "Magog" appears in the Table of nations in Genesis chapter 10 amidst names which span an arc from Media through Anatolia to Ionia. (I thought this was fairly obvious, but my attempt to add the information to the article "Gog and Magog" was vehemently rejected long ago.) Russia proper was kind of beyond the geographical horizon of the ancient Israelites during the Biblical period... AnonMoos (talk) 18:16, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
That sounds about right. It's been a while since I read up on it, but I seem to recall Magog being pretty well identified as somewhere in Turkey. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 00:18, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

File:Sviatoslav oseledec.jpg[edit]

Where is this monument located?Curb Chain (talk) 00:28, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

If you translate the Russian description into English using Google Translate, you get: "Russian Monument Svyatoslav Igorevich. Belgorod region, Chernyansky area. Sculptor: V. Canines".--CDwJ94ZD (talk) 00:33, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Per Sviatoslav I of Kiev#Art and literature, it is a sculpture in a village in the Belgorod Oblast. Though the Wikipedia article does not list the exact name of the village, it does give the name of the sculptor and several references about the unveiling of the statue, which should give you enough to track it down. --Jayron32 00:34, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Vyacheslav Klykov's work in the village of Kholki, Belgorod Oblast. Another picture. --Ghirla-трёп- 06:57, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

A boy and his horse[edit]

I saw a movie on Hallmark in year 2000. It was about some Southern kid with his horsie. I don't remember anything but one scene where he goes: "Where's my horse? I want my horse back!" at/near the front of a grey house. The movie is not "Flash", although that movie is very similar. It also has a Southern boy who gets and loses a horse. I would appreciate if somebody could figure this out. What movie is this?--Wikicreatere (talk) 01:01, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I've already given this my best shot over on the Entertainment Desk, but feel free to contribute if you think you can help. Alansplodge (talk) 12:47, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Candace Amanirenas[edit]

Hello,

I only found one picture of Candace Amanirenas, a picture of her tomb: [2], but it has a very low resolution, also I couldn't find any higher resolutions: [3]. Are there maybe other pictures of her?

Greetings HeliosX (talk) 05:02, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Hiya, google images is a good place to try this - go to the main google page and click on "Images" in the black bar at the top; you should get a page like this: [4] where you can type in "Candace Amanirenas". This [5] looks like a better picture than the one you have, although it's not high-res either. Some other different (though low-res) images of her face from different carvings: [6] [7] [8] wysinger.homestead.com/mapofnubia.html
High-res images are hard to find online, but you might try museum websites or Flickr[9]. 184.147.118.213 (talk) 13:50, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for help. But the first, it isn't Amanirenas, it is Amanitore as it's used on her page in Wikipedia, the second is a Puntite queen and the third is also Amanitore and the fourth is Amanishakheto as it is abbreviated in the images name.
With Flickr I only find the Hamadab stele, which is only a text about her.
Do you maybe have other ideas?
Greetings HeliosX (talk) 18:49, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Ah, I'm sorry I didn't check those more carefully. Apologies. More ideas, hm, not yet.
  • I tried searching some of the main museums, but only found the same stele you mention in the British Museum. I think it shows her legs at the top, but that's not exactly a good portrait :)
  • Tried your tomb image in Tin Eye [10] to see if there are bigger versions, but no luck.
  • Tried the first three pages of google scholar results [11] because often academic papers have images, but there was nothing in the ones that are available without payment.
  • Tried adding "Jebel Barkal" to the image search [12] (and the alternate spelling) [13] but that's not working either.
Very sorry. If no other volunteers here can help, perhaps try a wikiproject? (Wikipedia:WikiProject World Heritage Sites, Wikipedia:WikiProject Ancient Egypt or Wikipedia:WikiProject Sudan.) 184.147.118.213 (talk) 21:33, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Bar Culture[edit]

Is bar and nightclub culture about meeting and having fun with the opposite gender in all cultures? What were the origins of this sort of culture? 176.27.210.169 (talk) 09:04, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

1) In some cultures, where the genders are not supposed to mix informally, such activities are more about socialising with members of one's own gender. (Consider sports bars, even in cultures where the genders otherwise mix freely.)
2) There are plenty of subcultures (I belong to at least two of them) in which one's own gender is as much a target as another for the 'having fun' aspect in sexual/romantic sense. The existence of 'gay bars' goes back some way; there's a reference to an inter-war one in Brideshead Revisited, and I don't doubt the concept wasn't new then.
3) Modern bar culture in the West seems to be early 19th century or earlier; its precursors include the coffee-house culture which goes back to the 17th century, and the life of alehouses and inns, which runs right back to classical times. Nightclub culture dates from at least the middle of the 18th century; during his sojourn in London, Giacomo Casanova was a promoter for a nightclub in Soho Square. I don't know off-hand where it sprang from before that. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:54, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
To trace the origins you may consider Tavern and Saloon since the modern version are direct descendants. Market St.⧏ ⧐ Diamond Way 10:08, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
that is interesting. Do you think this "Modern bar culture in the West" is spreading to other parts of the world? I'm guessing in most of Asia for example, its less accepted but do you think in modern times, it's becoming more acceptable? 2.218.32.125 (talk) 10:50, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
I think traditional British pub culture was more about men drinking with their male friends. Until recently, British pubs had a "public bar" with basic furniture and games like darts and bar billiards, which was for spending the evening with your mates, amd the "saloon bar" with upholstered furniture, where you could take a young lady, away from the swearing and spitting on the other side. Beer cost more in the saloon. There was a concerted campaign after WWII to encourage women to visit pubs, resulting in drinks like Babycham and lager, which were thought to be more femenine than a pint of mild and bitter. Alansplodge (talk) 12:54, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Arrr, the old spit and sawdust. Them be the good ol days. Dmcq (talk) 14:30, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
As recently as the late 1990s the landlord of a pub in Portsmouth refused to serve my wife unless we went into the saloon. We left. Paul B (talk) 17:52, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
To see some 18th century propaganda about pub culture, see Hogarth's Gin Lane and Beer Street cartoons. They repay some detailed study! --TammyMoet (talk) 17:41, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Or A Midnight Modern Conversation. Paul B (talk) 17:50, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
TammyMoet -- both of the Hogarths are outdoor street scenes... AnonMoos (talk) 18:32, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes, but Beer Street is from the viewpoint of a pub "beer garden" as it would nowadays be called. Gin was the "heroin" of the day ("dead drunk for a tuppence"), and part of the intention is to contrast the sociable context of beer drinking (which includes home and workplace drinking, as well as "pub culture") with the isolation of gin-doped alcoholics on the street. Much of the beer drunk would be weak small beer, which was healthier than disease-bearing water. Another, rather more fraught, Hogarth pub scene is An Election Entertainment Paul B (talk) 18:37, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

DEfine bar culture. We have an article on bars. μηδείς (talk) 21:09, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I suppose I meant modern "Western nightlife culture" but it seems to be broad as the answers above suggest. 2.218.32.125 (talk) 23:36, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

North Korean Embassy[edit]

I am a British citizen. If I went to the North Korean embassy in London, and gave up my British passport and asked to be relocated to North Korea to 'fight for the revolution' or similar, what would be the likely reaction of the North Korean embassy? --AlldiRessie (talk) 17:04, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

"We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate". You appear to be asking us to make a prediction. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:13, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
I suspect that if you didn't have any useful information or assets to hand over to them, then they would prefer getting to know you over a period of time through the Korean Friendship Association... -- AnonMoos (talk) 18:00, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. I can't wait to say hello to Kim Jong Un. --AlldiRessie (talk) 18:08, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
When do you intend to do this? I will be very keen to hear what will happen. Are you able to edit Wikipedia from North Korea? Horatio Snickers (talk) 19:40, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

know about gotra...[edit]

hello,My surname is patel(kadwa patidar). and when i search about my caste somewhere it shows vaishya and somewhere kshatriya and in my janmapatrika there was written in caste space is kshatriya. I want know my gotra and any details related to this.My forefathers mainly from punjab(now that part is in karachi) & i am from sakariya pedhi(sakha) i only know this. please help me to short out this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.213.58.146 (talk) 17:56, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Hello. The articles we have are Kadava Patidar, Patidar and Kurmi, and while they don't specify a gotra (the first says Kshatriya varna), the Kadava Patidar does link (at the bottom) to three associations. Perhaps you can contact one of those groups for better information. 184.147.118.213 (talk) 21:41, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Indecent exposure in Victorian times[edit]

The Outbursts of Everett True AnonMoos (talk) 19:29, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Was it really considered indecent exposure in Victorian times if a woman exposed her ankles? I remember reading about it in school textbooks and Mr. Burns has referenced it twice on the Simpsons, once when ordering Victorian themed dancers to go "back to your brothel harlots" and when he eyes up a woman's ankles through a pair of binoculars telling her to "work those ankles, baby". The reason I'm mentioning the Simpsons is because their examples of antiquated humour are usually pretty accurate --Andrew 18:02, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

In olden days a glimpse of stocking was looked upon as something shocking [14].
The answer is "yes and no". The "Victorian period" was actually 60 years, during which attitudes changed in complex ways. And of course it depended on where you were. The term "Victorian" is often used in the USA, but of course Vicky was only queen in Britain (and its empire, in some parts of which stockings were unknown). The French Can Can was pretty shocking precisely because the girls lifted up their skirts, though they were fully stockinged underneath, and of course the Barrison Sisters showed their "pussies". That was in the "naughty nineties". Back in the '50s the Crinoline was designed to ensure that a woman's feet would not be seen, but she would appear to "float" as she walked. At the same time, however, there existed common lodging houses with beds in which couples would be having sex with no privacy at all, and in many areas women worked in manual industries that involved degrees of undress. What happens is that the more "uninhibited" public behaviour in the early period actually becomes increasingly regulated - very much linked to the idea that there should be a common culture of public decency - but this then generates the deliberate "naughtiness" that emerges in popular culture by the end of the century. Paul B (talk) 18:32, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Mrandrewnohome -- it wasn't literally indecent for women to slightly raise their skirts and show a bestockinged ankle, because frequently as a practical matter, women had to slightly lift their skirts to avoid dragging them though mud or wet. However, some men got a little thrill from seeing it. You can look at the comic strip, where the self-appointed moral guardian beats up on the watching man, not the woman... AnonMoos (talk) 19:29, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

A specifically Victorian example, without the explicit voyeurism is Frith's The Crossing Sweeper, of which he did several versions. They play on the "glimpse of stocking" idea, played off that of deference to gentility. It also crops up in cartoons of the era File:PunchCartoon crossing sweeper.jpg. Paul B (talk) 19:38, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm unable to locate an online clip, but sometime in the 1970s Johnny Carson had a guest on the Tonight Show who was, I think, a centenarian. When talking about his younger days in the late 1800s, he mentioned how much he and his fellows liked it when it rained because it meant there would be puddles - forcing ladies to lift their hems slightly and giving them a flash of ankle to look forward to. Matt Deres (talk) 14:52, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
On the other hand, Victorians cheerfully accepting things that would offend to our 21st century moral standards. There is a sign board in a museum in Epping Forest that had been erected at a public boating pond in about 1900 which says; "Bathing costumes must be worn by boys over 12 years of age". Alansplodge (talk) 07:23, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


Divine Accommodation/Condescension in Orthodox Judaism[edit]

Are there any Orthodox Jewish scholars, either contemporary are ancient, who understand Divine Accommodation/Condescension to occur in the Revelation of the Old Testament in a similar fashion of many Christian theologians? Thanks!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.96.146.180 (talk) 21:29, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Are you talking about incarnation? Can you provide a link to what you mean by Divine Accommodation/Condescension? μηδείς (talk) 21:53, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Femnism in Jewish/Hebrew culture[edit]

A general look at Jewish history shows that women had very little power or say in society. However, isn't the story of Deborah, who was a ruling figure, a good argument for female power or independence from man? I know in the Rabbinic period many debates and questions were asked about Jewish history and society, was the agency of Jewish women ever discussed? Jewish feminism only deals with the modern movement. --The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 21:39, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Most societies in the past severely limited the power of women, and had a paternalistic and chauvinist attitude towards women in terms of preventing women from accessing formal positions of power. And women have also always done so, either directly, such as someone like Wu Zetian, or indirectly as the "Power behind the throne" such as Catherine de' Medici. The idea that a society may have had a misogynistic view towards women, or may have actively prevented women from accessing political power is not invalidated as a historical fact that some women broke through that power structure to occasionally hold power, either as a de facto or de jure matter. --Jayron32 22:07, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
While rabbinic law has restricted women's religious participation as it likewise has defined men's, women's economic activity within the patriarchal family structure could be extensive and influential. In the European diaspora of the Second Millennium C.E., see for a noted example Dona Gracia Mendes Nasi. Jewish women in the Arab world were allowed to conduct commercial activities with sequestered women of the ruling class. Within the Hasidic community that values a man's devotion to religious scholarship, women are often responsible for the household's income. -- Deborahjay (talk) 00:30, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Other women who could meet criteria for "good argument for female power or independence from man" include Miriam, Yael, Bathsheba (see Solomon#Succession - our Bathsheba article is utterly obsessed with the bathing story) and Sarah, in various aspects of their lives. The most contentious and perhaps most interesting of them all is Bruria, whose wit and wits were clearly perceived as challenging. But, to return to the example of Deborah, her role of a prophetess was, it seems, deemed unremarkable. It was only when Barak wanted her to take on a military role that she upbraided him. --Dweller (talk) 15:37, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

hydrogen nuclear tests on enewetak islands[edit]

I,m trying to find out information on the airforce men who were deposited every day on the atoll after the last nuclear tests in aug,1948 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.54.164.219 (talk) 22:33, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Here and here are first-hand accounts. There's also a Congressman Edward Markey Report - "American Nuclear Guinea Pigs: Three Decades of Radiation Experiments on U.S. Citizens", which talks about Eniwetok. I searched using "Eniwetok US Air Force personnel nuclear tests". Clarityfiend (talk) 23:34, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Are you looking for personnel c. 1948 or during later nuclear tests? Clarityfiend (talk) 23:40, 3 June 2013 (UTC)