Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 February 22

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February 22[edit]

Obcurity ["upper youth"][edit]

What does "upper youth" mean: first sentence in Zoo York (company). (talk) 01:29, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I've occasionally heard it used in contradistinction with "younger youth", especially in the context of sports and youth groups. But it doesn't make much sense in the Zoo York article. Maybe it carries some special meaning in the fashion industry. LANTZYTALK 04:10, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Googling leaves me believing that "upper youth" refers to an age group. For example, "Research and Markets" has, "As electronic games penetrate into the upper youth age categories, the clothing worn by the characters in the games also influences street fashions." All the hits I saw for "upper youth" as a noun were copies of the Wikipedia article. It's an adjective, used like "upper youth group" or "upper youth model [meaning "version"]". Nowhere is the age bracket defined that I could find, but I guess they're older than "young youth" and younger than "young adult". --Milkbreath (talk) 12:31, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Chinese characters[edit]

How would you render "Li Chu Yan" in Chinese (specifically Cantonese) characters? If it helps, it is a name. Thanks in advance. (talk) 10:19, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

(E/C)There are dozens of different ways to write each character, leading to hundreds of possible combinations. Can you be a little more specific? Can you supply the meanings of each character, or at least the tones?-- (talk) 15:46, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, is the most common name in China (see Li (surname)), so that might be a start at a plausible guess... AnonMoos (talk) 19:52, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Except that in Cantonese, is pronounced 'lei5' ('5' being the fifth tone). See Wiktionary. --KageTora (talk) 23:36, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
That doesn't look Cantonese. It looks like Mandarin written in either pinyin or W-G (Li Chu Yan would correspond to Li Zhuyan in pinyin). --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:44, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

list of alternades[edit]

I would like a list of alternades in the English language. Alternades are those words whose letters, taken alternately would give two words. For example, SCHOOLED = SHOE + COLD. Thanks in advance (talk) 15:44, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I've discovered various isolated examples by a quick Google search, but no comprehensive list. Maybe such a thing doesn't exist. We may have to start an Alternade article (the term seems sufficiently accepted in lingo-land) and watch it grow. -- JackofOz (talk) 18:36, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
As you can see, some kind soul (*cough*) has created the article. One source led me to believe at least 4,800 examples exist, but they don't give a comprehensive list (maybe that source can be trawled a bit more deeply by use of $$). -- JackofOz (talk) 06:01, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Korean?[edit]

What would be a narrow IPA transcription of the city name Jeonju?--Sonjaaa (talk) 17:00, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

/dʒɔndʒu/ would be my guess at it.-- (talk) 17:59, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm looking for a narrow transcription, not a phonemic one. Also, I don't see /ɔ/ in Korean phonology.--Sonjaaa (talk) 19:21, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

No, "eo" usually represents /ʌ/ in the tranliteration of Korean. And "j" represents /tɕ/, though I think it can be voiced to /dʑ/ in some contexts. I can't help you with a narrow transcription, though. —Angr 19:49, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
To my ears, it's a cross between /ʌ/ and /ɔ/. Anyway, sorry, I don't understand what 'narrow transcription' means. You asked for IPA, and that's what I gave. --KageTora (talk) 23:31, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Narrow transcription means giving precise phonetic detail in the transcription, even if it's phonologically predictable. For example, a narrow transcription of English cat might be [kʰætʔ], showing the aspiration of the /k/ and the glottalization of the /t/, as opposed to a broad transcription /kæt/, which only shows aspects that are phonologically unpredictable. —Angr 09:07, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
The English pronunciation of the city may be /dʒɔndʒu/, but in the Korean pronunciation the ㅈ sound in 전주 is more palatal than dʒ, maybe a /c/?-- (talk) 02:55, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Korean orthography and related transcription systems don't seem to indicate long-short distinctions between vowels, so the Korean pronunciation could be [tɕɘːndʑuː], [tɕɘːndʑu], [tɕʌndʑuː], [tɕʌndʑu], or, for North Korean speakers, [tɕɔndʑu]. If we were going to Anglicize the pronunciation, it would probably be something like /ˈdʒʌndʒu/ rather than /ˈdʒɔndʒu/. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 06:25, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

English Saying From Years Ago[edit]

My mum said this to me tonight: "Today's the day to see today in something and sorrow and if you cannot see today today you can see today tomorrow." She said she can't remember the it properly, but that they used to say it when she was a kid back in the Dark Ages. Does anyone know it?--KageTora (talk) 23:26, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't ring a bell, and it does sound garbled. Where did your mother live in the Dark Ages? --Milkbreath (talk) 01:47, 24 February 2009 (UTC)