Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2008 September 6

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September 6[edit]

The selling of "White Trash" culture.[edit]

Does anyone have any idea why in the last decade the marketing of "white trash" culture (kid rock, nascar, trailer park comedies, reno 911, etc) has markedly increased? Now even politicians a la Hillary Clinton are speaking with fake southern accents. Why? Halli B (talk) 02:46, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

This goes back farther than ten years. See also: The Jerry Springer Show, Morton Downey, Jr., The Beverly Hillbillies, Shakespeare's plays, etc. — Twas Now ( talkcontribse-mail ) 03:24, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Rock musicians have used a fake southern accent since Elvis came on the scene. Edison (talk) 04:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Hillary Clinton was First Lady of Arkansas for several years, and is married to a native-born Arkansan. It's entirely possible that his accent has rubbed off on her. Listen to Madonna speak. Corvus cornixtalk 04:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
What's a trailer park comedy, btw? Corvus cornixtalk 04:09, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Trailer Park BoysTwas Now ( talkcontribse-mail ) 08:15, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Could the perceived increase stem from oversimplification? I have no interest in watching cars turn left, no matter how colorful the logos, but equating NASCAR with "white trash" is as silly as equating Shakespeare with "guys wearing starched ruffs." It's possible to have a Southern accent, or to live in the South, without being white trash (or even white). --- OtherDave (talk) 14:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Basically all the items you list are just things on television, which is the lowest common denominator of the much broader "culture". --Sean 14:52, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
How did shakespeare get on the same list as jerry? ::shudder:: --Shaggorama (talk) 08:52, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

What is the name for this lame defense?[edit]

A common legal defense posits that the accused is far too clever and experienced to have blatantly committed such a foolish crime and not covered his tracks. E.g., "I've worked at this company for thirty years and know their systems inside and out. Don't you think that, if I wanted to I really wanted to embezzle funds, I would do it like that? This is clearly the work of an amateur!"

Does this type of defense have a name? Is it considered a fallacy?

There is a related (but generally less effective) defense used in some domestic abuse cases. I see it sometimes on Judge Judy. It goes: "Hit my wife? Hit my wife? Your honor, if I were to hit my wife, she wouldn't be in any condition to stand here and tell you about it!" I doubt that one has a name.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 04:55, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't know a name for it, but it's clearly a fallacy - if doing a bad job of the crime meant you wouldn't be found guilty then doing a bad job would actually be a very good job. --Tango (talk) 05:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
And just because a person or company may have shown considerable skill or cleverness in the past does not necessarily mean they did so in the case in question. The second example in particular seems to be more of an ego trip than anything else. --S.dedalus (talk) 06:21, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Given the unlikelihood of success, a good name might be hubris. --- OtherDave (talk) 14:15, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Just because this argument works in movies and detective novels I wouldn't assume it has ever been used in real life. Do you have an example from real life? DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I won't name names, but someone I respect used it onwiki when he was accused of sockpuppetry.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 23:25, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


Where can I find Australian sales numbers for video games? (Key word: numbers.) (talk) 05:17, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

A company by the name of "GfK Australia" does most of the tracking. They sell their data - so you can't get it for free. The companies that buy it generally only use it for either (a) financial information on game companies or (b) to produce "top 10 charts" for the general public. It's clear that they must count the total number sold - but it never seems to be published anywhere - which could be a confidentiality thing - or that they want to make money from it. The trade organisation "Interactive Entertainment Association of Australia" (IEAA) also seem to keep track of this data - but they don't seem to publish it either. SteveBaker (talk) 19:17, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Article: Emergency Preparedness[edit]

Is there a article on this ? There are those hurricanes, earthquakes, fire, etc. (talk) 08:36, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

There are what are being called "Emergency Preparedness kits" being sold. Any articles on these things as well? 08:44, 6 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk)
Got old, forgot sig. LOL! (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 08:45, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
If you had done a search for Emergency preparedness, you may have noticed that the term redirects to Emergency management. — Twas Now ( talkcontribse-mail ) 10:26, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
There is also Hurricane preparedness, Earthquake preparedness, and possibly others, as well as Survival kit/Disaster supplies kits. — Twas Now ( talkcontribse-mail ) 10:29, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Reason I asked is that I have one of these. I'm in a hurricane prone area, also get tornadoes, servere thunderstorms, ice storms, heat waves, wind storms. (talk) 17:32, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
I hope those articles help, then. I recommend not giving your full faith to what the articles say, but to follow the references and external links mentioned in the articles. The references and external links may be more reliable and trustworthy than the Wikipedia articles. — Twas Now ( talkcontribse-mail ) 22:01, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
FEMA publishes a free preparedness guide online here. --Shaggorama (talk) 08:50, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

seemingly extra sensual perception[edit]

I was just walking around with my eyes closed and I got a strong feeling that there was something in front of me Iwalked on and soon found out that there was,what is that called and how does it work81.155.35.95 (talk) 10:22, 6 September 2008 (UTC)Andrew kenyon-Roberts

One explanation: You (subconsciously) noticed that thing earlier when you had your eyes open, and your brain cued you in at about the spot it recalled the object. — Twas Now ( talkcontribse-mail ) 10:25, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, it might be extra sensual if you reckon you've got an additional sense (eg. a 6th sense). The usual term is extra-sensory, meaning beyond the senses (ie. nothing to do with the senses at all). But whether this is either of those, or simply coincidence, or something else again, I doubt we'd have any way of knowing. -- JackofOz (talk) 10:29, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
One simple way to find out: get a friend and a large sheet of cardboard. Close your eyes, and your friend randomly holds the cardboard in your path or out of your path. You start walking, and see how many times you crash into the cardboard. The example you've given is probably confirmation bias since you probably would not notice it if it wasn't there. --antilivedT | C | G 11:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
About how it works: I suppose you could also sense obstacles through minor variations in air pressure or air currents, and smell, in addition to the above explanations. Especially cardboard you should be able to smell if you are close enough. You might not be aware of this even if it is how you discovered the obstacles. Jørgen (talk) 12:00, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
There was a report bouncing around the web a few weeks ago [1] that said that humans have a primitive version of sonar (like bats and dolphins) (oh - and now we have Human echolocation) - and a previous report showed that we are actually able to follow trails by smell (but not as well as dogs) and that we actually have a "stereo" sense of smell [2] - noticing the direction of a smell by the relative strength through our two nostrils. However, I'm with User:Twas Now - you simply have enough memory of the room layout and enough other cues to enable you to do this. For example - I can close my eyes and still see enough light through my eyelids to tell where the windows are. Sound reverberations let me know how close to the walls I am. No magic. No "extra" senses. SteveBaker (talk) 13:50, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

There are blind people, such as Ben Underwood [3], shown in this YouTube [4] , who can echolocate amazingly well. He can rollerblade, and he can detect the presence and texture of surfaces. He lost both eyes as a child and has non-seeing prosthetic replacements. Even without making clicks with the mouth, ambient noise should change as you get close to, say, a wall. You hear a noise from behind you pass by, then you hear an echo from in front bouncing off the wall 6 feet in front a fraction of a second later. You take a step forward and you are 3 feet from the wall. Another sound not passes you and echoes from the wall, with the return delayed half as much as before. You deduce that you are getting closer to the wall. Edison (talk) 04:28, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Also your eyelids are not completely opaque, you can still detect changes in brightness ecen with your eyes closed. You could possibly tell if you walked into a shadow or close to a wall by the change in intensity. (talk) 19:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Jim Corbett often found that he got a sense of where a man-eating tiger was even though he couldn't see it and frequently and changed direction or prepared to attack.Even though he had no visual sighting,the target was often exactly where he sensed it was.Quite a handy skill... Lemon martini (talk) 10:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

IBM location designed with own furniture, with paper in mind[edit]

A year or two ago, I read an article (written at the time, I believe) about the design of an IBM office building. It was supposed to be the first specially designed to improve the productivity of software engineers. I'm trying to track that article down, but I don't have any hard facts such as the name of the location or the publication, so I've had no luck with Google. Here are some things I do remember:

  • The date was probably early 70s or thereabouts. I'm pretty sure the location was in the US.
  • The building was designed alongside its own range of office furniture, intended to provide efficient use and storage of both the large amounts of paper printouts and punchcards still in use, as well as the video terminals coming in. In particular I remember a mention of especially deep desks to allow a stack of fan-fold paper to be laid out and opened to any point.
  • The site consisted of several buildings, with projecting parts so that all developers had windows (perhaps they were X or H shaped overall?)
  • Mention was made of an efficient system of paper distribution (they were still printing lots of code, and getting through stupendous amounts of it) from a daily delivery bay in the centre through a series of corridors and lifts. I remember that the corridors had specially smooth floors for the paper trolleys, and that there was an equally-developed return system for the used paper to a shredder and recycling pickup point.
  • Developers were organised in cells of several offices surrounding a central point with a secretary and office machinery (and the end-point of the abovementioned paper distribution).

Ideally, someone would be able to locate the article (I would have previously read it online) but just an idea of the site name would be helpful in finding it. Thanks. (talk) 11:33, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I know it's not in the US, but Google seems to be abuzz with references to IBM's Pilot HQ in Cosham, UK as being architecturally inovative and constructed in 1970/71. Fribbler (talk) 11:48, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, but I don't think that's the one. (talk) 16:30, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
In fact, mentioning the furniture in the search, and omitting the word "design", I've found what I was looking for: . Thanks anyway. (talk) 16:54, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you meant to eat the pinkish coloured part of a dragonfruit?[edit]

Obviously you're meant to eat the inside bit, but didn't know whether the outside was typically edible. Thanks. The article makes this unclear.--Flesh of dragonfruit (talk) 14:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The article says that the skin is not eaten, but never having met a dragon fruit I don't know if that is enough to answer your question. DuncanHill (talk) 21:50, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Yep, don't eat the skin, but the rest is edible. I didn't particularly like it much, but it was edible nonetheless. Steewi (talk) 05:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Predicted grades[edit]

Where do A-level predicted grades, which universities use to decide whether to accept an applicant, come from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:24, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

If you mean predicted grades on a UCAS application then they are provided by the applicant's adviser, who is normally a member of staff at their school or college - see UCAS adviser's FAQ here. I think it would be unusual for a university to decide whether or not to accept an applicant based on predicted rather than actual grades - by the time they are making that decision, the actual A2 grades should be available. A university will take predicted A2 grades (as well as actual AS grades) into account when deciding whether to make an offer to an applicant - but in most cases offers are conditional on achieving certain results at A2. Gandalf61 (talk) 16:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

library reference work[edit]

I need an estimation of the number of books and the number of articles that focus on library reference desks.

Thanks, (talk) 17:14, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

That's a tough question - but let's at least take a shot at it. An search for library "reference desk" turned up a couple of dozen books that looked somewhat relevant - maybe a dozen that were directly relevant. But I'd expect this to be a branch of "Library information science" - of which there are many hundreds of books written. Quite how many of those say much of interest about the reference desk - I have no clue. Google turned up at least a half dozen professional journals about "library and information science" - some of those have been in publication for 100 years - so I would hazard a guess that there were at least a couple of dozen English language books and a few hundred to maybe a thousand articles about reference desks. But I could easily be off by an order of magnitude either way - and that's without considering foreign language books and articles on the topic. SteveBaker (talk) 17:32, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! that's very helpful. (talk) 14:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

There is an online database offered through the H.W. Wilson Company that is called "Library Literature and Information Science". This database indexes journal articles and books, focusing on the subject of librarianship. I am sure that one could come up with a healthy number of articles and books concerning reference desks in this database. Unfortunately, this is a subscription database, meaning that in order to use it, you must pay a fee. However, if you are near a large public or university library, there is a high chance that they will carry this database as part of their subscribed database coverage, and so you could physically go to such a library and do your research there in order to access this database. Hope that helps... Saukkomies 16:57, 11 September, 2008 (UTC)

And everybody should know about worldcat! Enormous db of worldwide library catalogs with a fast and pretty good search function. And it's freeeee. Saintrain (talk) 22:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, I second your endorsement for Worldcat, Saintrain! However, to be honest, Worldcat does have its limitations. It mostly contains references to monographs, which are books and journal titles - NOT individual journal articles. So, if someone wanted to do research on a subject, and wanted to include journal articles in that research, then Worldcat would not be adequate on its own. However, Worldcat does a fantastic job of providing research support for books on a given subject. Saukkomies 08:18, 13 September, 2008 (UTC)

Feet Color[edit]

I was wondering why different people have different color feet soles, and why different parts of feet have different colors. I have seen pictures where the ball of the foot is almost orange, as well as right before the toes on the sole. What determines these colors?

John John9101 (talk) 17:21, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Calluses are the culprit. They develop in parts of the foot that experience repetitive pressure. The thickened skin has an orangey hue. Fribbler (talk) 18:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
...possibly due to Subsurface scattering through the thickened skin layer. SteveBaker (talk) 18:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Footwear storage with the Fat Man Who Never Came Back[edit]

My sister moved in with me last month, and now there are shoes lying over the place (mostly hers, but some of mine too).

Is there a stylish, tasteful way to organize and store a large number of shoes? I've been to the homes of people who have shoe-storing racks hanging from their doors, but I find these very ugly.

If you offer a suggestion, please also include a link to pictures of what you're talking about.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 18:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

One can get a thing which looks like a chest of drawers, but the "drawers" are concealed racks for the shoes. I don't have a picture to hand, but if I find one I will link it. DuncanHill (talk) 18:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Some of the things here [5] may be suited to your tastes. DuncanHill (talk) 18:11, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, that gave me some ideas. I'm already finding some modern-looking stuff like this. After all, the Fat Man is, as Mick Jagger once sang, "a man of wealth and taste" (well, perhaps not wealth--if that were the case, I probably wouldn't be sharing an apartment with my sister).--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 18:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Those shoe racks are the answer - but don't put them on (for example) your bedroom door - put them on the inside of your wardrobe or closet door(s). They still occupy an otherwise unused chunk of household space - but you only see them when you open the door to look for clothing and shoes. In my house, we have a large, tasteful octagonal wooden box - about 2 feet tall and 18" around with a heavy, hinged lid - (of an Asian/Indian design) - that sits by the front door where one or two pairs of "outdoor" shoes are kept per person when they are indoors - and where their house-slippers reside when they are outdoors. This has the benefit of avoiding outside dirt and mud getting tracked through the house. Those of us who need VASTLY LARGER numbers of shoes than any sane person could possibly require had better keep the damned things in the many, MANY, shoe closets set aside for that specific purpose or there will be trouble! My wife stores her shoes elsewhere. SteveBaker (talk) 18:50, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
A particularly advanced shoe storage system. DuncanHill (talk) 21:23, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
The Steel Butterfly, whilst not exactly skinny, must not be confused with the Fat Woman Who Eventually Did Come Back... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:56, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
lol. I have a Malacañang Palace sitting by my front door and I swear by it. BTW, I love the title of this section. Not only does it actually refer to the topic of the question but it advertises who we'll be taking this adventure with. It's like a tv series but better. - Lambajan 03:05, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
(Hmmm - I thought the title rather gave away the ending.) SteveBaker (talk) 19:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Maybe it would be better suited as the title of the world's dullest call-in radio show.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 19:29, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

So what happened to the inquisitive Muslim academic movement?[edit]

As I try to find out what happened to the well-recorded history of the Muslim/Islamic movement that made astonishing discoveries and developments in architecture, mathematics, medicine, art, philosophy, politics, diplomacy, social order and obedience to the Koranic principle of tolerance, forgiveness, and understanding and acceptance of other religions and cultures, I am bound to question where these values, talents and leading-edge socio-politico-religioso qualities have gone. Is anyone here able to answer my question? And secondly, are we 21st century non-Muslim people of the same ONE GOD, destined for historical elimination in the name of Muhammed (pbuh), a 6th century disillusioned nomad? (talk) 18:44, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
  1. I don't know
  2. In the sense that, as individuals, we will die: yes. In the sense that all non-Muslim believers in the Abrahamic god will eventually be killed or convert: no. — Twas Now ( talkcontribse-mail ) 21:52, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia has some stuff on 1 at Islamic Golden Age#Causes of decline and Science in medieval Islam#Decline. Algebraist 21:58, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
So I suppose it can be deduced that current Islamic Terrorism can be equated to "babies throwing their toys out of the pram" because they can't always have it their own way????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:39, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Liberal movements in Islam might help you to track it down. There are also some authors such as Ziauddin Sardar who argue that the inquisitive tradition is still alive and kicking. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

location of pic[edit]

Mehrangarh Fort in Johdpur

Any idea where this is? I believe it's in Thailand, but I was hoping to narrow it down more. Thank you. --Rajah (talk) 19:29, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The cliff-top position reminds me of the Dalai Lama's Potala Palace, since I was in Lhasa a few years ago - although, it clearly isn't the palace. (talk) 20:44, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
I think it is in India, not because I recognize it, but because the picture gives you a clue. Looking very closely at the lower left hand corner is a URL:, and here is a similar picture on that site under "India": Below is a thumbnail for image #31, which is your picture. With luck maybe someone else can narrow it down further. Crypticfirefly (talk) 05:00, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Note: is in the lower right (I almost saved this as "lower left", too!) — Twas Now ( talkcontribse-mail ) 05:42, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I think it's Mehrangarh Fort in Johdpur, India. Photo number 32 on that kepguru site (a view over the battlements to a town with lots of bright blue buildings) matches fairly closely with a photo (above, right) from WikiCommons that identifies it as that fort. The official site for the fort [6] has an almost identical shot to #32 from the KepGuru site - so if the two pictures on that site came from the same place (which seems REALLY likely) then we have a match. That's an utterly amazing place! It makes you wonder what kind of an army they felt they needed to defend themselves against! SteveBaker (talk) 16:16, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
(That original photo somehow reminds me of Naboo in StarWars ep I - it needs more shiney chrome spaceships though.) SteveBaker (talk) 16:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
(More evidence) This photo [7] is of the tower in the background of your original photo. I think that's proof. SteveBaker (talk) 16:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Awesome. Thanks, everyone! --Rajah (talk) 15:03, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Illogical Affection for Saviour[edit]

An illogical affection for one's captor is termed Stockholm Syndrome but I can't remember what the term is for an affection of one saviour (i.e. being a bit more than just grateful). Is there such a term/syndrome, or have I been misinformed? -- (talk) 21:19, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Why would it be illogical to be grateful to someone who has saved you? — Twas Now ( talkcontribse-mail ) 21:48, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
The OP stated clearly that we're talking about being 'a bit more than just grateful' here. Algebraist 21:49, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what that means though. How much is a bit? What is considered "appropriately" grateful? — Twas Now ( talkcontribse-mail ) 21:54, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
I read that as implying sexual attraction, but the OP might be working from a different codebook. Algebraist 21:59, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Not necessarily, but inclusive of that yes. -- (talk) 22:00, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
That would depend entirely on the circumstances and loan amount. Unfortunately I don't know any scales of affection that could be useful here, but I would suggest 'a degree of affection visibly greater than the degree that would be expressed by the vast majority of people'. A bit of a rubbish definition I know, but it might help. -- (talk) 22:00, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Fair enough. To define it more concretely, suppose we graph the "gratefulness" of a group of saved people, with the x-axis being "gratefulness" and the y-axis being the "number of people" to express x level of gratefulness; we should expect to see a normal distribution. You are interested in what we call the people at the far right of the x-axis, say the 99th percentile, or "most grateful", people. — Twas Now ( talkcontribse-mail ) 00:31, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
To get back to the point, using my "normal distribution" definition above, I have no idea what such behavior is called. — Twas Now ( talkcontribse-mail ) 00:32, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I'd say it's entirely rational. Someone has just saved your life, your survival instinct is going to suggest staying as close to them as possible. You can't get much closer than being in a romantic relationship. --Tango (talk) 01:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I have an example that might be like what you're talking about. Twenty-five years ago, I was swimming at a beach with friends of mine (a married couple and their 7-year-old daughter). We were all together, swimming in a safe area between the flags, within easy distance of the shore. But we were all taken out further by a rip. I'm an experienced surf swimmer, but if this hadn't happened to me, I wouldn't have believed how quickly it can happen; and you don't realise it as it's happening. When we suddenly noticed how far away from the shore we were, we started swimming back. But we made no headway; and after a while we were all getting exhausted. The daughter started to panic, and she tried to hang on to me because by that stage I was closer to her than her parents were. I did what I could, but she was becoming so panicky that she was dragging me down, and this threatened to drown both of us. We were still a long way out from the shore, and I was getting pretty desparate myself. Suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere, four life savers appeared, and they managed to get us all back to the shore safely. For the rest of the day, the father expressed his profuse thanks to me for saving his daughter. I kept saying that I didn't do anything much worth writing home about, and if it hadn't been for the life savers, all four of us would probably have drowned. But this didn't deter him, and for months later, whenever we saw each other, he thanked me all over again. I was pretty embarrassed by this. Even if I had been instrumental in saving his daughter (which in my mind I hadn't been), expressions of gratitude can become inappropriate and almost offensive to the thankee when repeated too often. I never complained, because I understood where he was coming from. After a while, he must have sensed this over-the-top expression of gratitude was no longer necessary, so he stopped doing it. It wasn't a case of him becoming more "affectionate" towards me in a romantic/sexual sense, but our friendship did become stronger, and we're still in regular contact. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:12, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

This is, incidentally, why I am totally afraid of swimming in the ocean! Thanks for reinforcing my phobia, Jack ;-) -- (talk) 11:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
You're afraid that if you get swept away you will have Jack to cling on to? DuncanHill (talk) 12:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, interesting. Possibly that had a lot to do with fear? i.e. every time he saw you he was reminded that he could have lost his daughter and this set off a relief/gratitude response all over again? Just projecting how I might feel. --S.dedalus (talk) 07:26, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Completely aside, swimming against a riptide is unlikely to be successful. As our article indicates, you need to swim parallel to it so you can make your way around. Matt Deres (talk) 13:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
To be clear to anyone thinking of going for a swim: that should be parallel to the shoreline; perpendicular to the current. jeffjon (talk) 14:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Election fraud graph[edit]

Hi, I remember seeing a while ago a graph showing how an election had been rigged in favor of Vladimir Putin. If I remember correctly. X was the electoral bureaus ordered by participation rate, Y was number of votes and number of abstention. One curve showed the number of abstention being roughly constant until the participation rate reached about 75% where it declined, the other curve showed the number of votes for Putin being roughly constant until it mirrored the other curve into a climb. Meaning that ballot boxes had been stuffed with absent elector's ballots in favor of Putin. Has anyone the ref to this graph, I can't find it anymore? This graph is similar in principle but doesn't seem as clear as the one I'm looking for. What other methods are there to show fraud through graph? One example is here. I don't understand why the peaks mean fraud as such, why should it be a constant bell shaped curve? Thank you. (talk) 22:26, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Those graphs may hint at fraud, but they're far from conclusive. It could well be that the other parties campaigned equally across all bureaus and Putin's party campaigned more in some than others, and in places where Putin didn't campaign people that would have supported him just didn't vote and in places where he did campaign, they went out and voted for him. That would result in roughly the same graphs. --Tango (talk) 00:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, except the whole 100% turnout bit for so many districts. That's the sort of thing you really only see in a rigged election. Even in elections of wildly popular candidates, you don't get 100% turnout anywhere, much less along the exact percentages that chart shows. Of course who knows where the data is really from. But if it's legit then that's compelling that something is up. -- (talk) 01:16, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
You would have to be pretty stupid to rig an election that obviously. I expect there's a flaw in how they compiled their data (some of it was from a source that rounded to the nearest 10%, say). --Tango (talk) 01:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)