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November 27[edit]

Is there any online community collaborating on plagiarism exposé?[edit]

I remember hearing about a group belonging to scientific community checking on science articles for intellectual fraud. Is there any similar effort for humanities, like where a people can examine a doctoral thesis for its originality/fraud? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:201:F00A:208D:988C:CA7D:381F:927A (talk) 15:40, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Various plagiarism checking programs are available [1]. (talk) 16:56, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

That shoddy doc says nothing about what I raised. How can a institution of some standing have such a shoddy document as its policy? Point seven repeats point 6. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:201:F00A:208D:4CC9:D45B:57C5:544 (talk) 17:05, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

It's probably a deliberate copyright trap designed to spot fraudulent institutions that copy this document and try to pass it off as their own. {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 19:07, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
Are you the original poster? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:15, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes. Should I register as a user to be considered a valid person? Is it OK to just make use of the non-registered user's option to edit? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:201:F00A:208D:D0F:6016:A160:EBBB (talk) 18:30, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

It depends on how much confusion you want to cause. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:05, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Unregistered users' posts are not inherently any more confusing than those of registered users. Neither are the posts of registered users who are not logged in. As long as they sign each post, which even registered users sometimes fail to do, and play by other rules, no problemo. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:48, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Except when 3 users with 3 separate IP's make comments, it's hard to know if they are the same guy or impostors. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:44, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
You've been around long enough that you should know that IPv6 addresses can jump all over the place Bugs. (talk) 23:43, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Since you can't know whether the person answering the question whether they are one and the same is the OP or an impostor impersonating the OP, it is pointless to ask the question.  --Lambiam 00:58, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
The document linked to by mentions "Turnitin or similar programmes"; "Turnitin" sounds like a medicine for nausea but is a software program for plagiarism detection; see here. I think this is what respondent referred to when they said, "Various plagiarism checking programs are available"; I don't think they meant the policy at the Graduate School of ICL. Of course, plagiarism is merely one form of fraud, one that is relatively easy to detect. There have been fraudulent claims of archeological artefacts, but unless the fraudster is a dunce, debunking these is generally not possible solely on the basis of the description in an article; it requires examining the artefact itself. Using someone else's original ideas (but not their texts) while presenting them as one's own is not detectable with current technology; it requires familiarity with the earlier work. It may be hard to establish, though, that the duplication is not the result of an independent reinvention, and there have been instances where the earlier publication stole in fact unpublished ideas of the author of the later publication. In any case, the peer reviewers are also supposed to check for originality; given the number of somewhat arcane specializations, it is hard to see how an online community would do better than specialist reviewers. I cannot readily imagine other forms of fraud in the humanities.  --Lambiam 01:32, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
  • To come back to the original question: In Germany, there are several Wiki-like sites that do check doctoral theses - IIRC, the first major one was GuttenPlag, which demolished Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg's thesis. It's now on Wikia, but no longer active. VroniPlag seems to be the successor, and even has a page at VroniPlag Wiki. Being able to put "Dr." in from of your name is quite a thing in Germany (and worse in Austria), so there are a lot of people who want to get the academic grade for the prestige, not out of intellectual curiosity, and they do tend to take shortcuts. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:06, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

November 28[edit]

Picture of a chess queen[edit]

How come the image of a chess queen on a 2D image looks so different from a real chess queen?? Look at:

White queen
Black queen

and at:

d8 white circle
h8 white circle
a7 white circle
d7 white circle
g7 white circle
b6 white circle
d6 white circle
f6 white circle
c5 white circle
d5 white circle
e5 white circle
a4 white circle
b4 white circle
c4 white circle
d4 white queen
e4 white circle
f4 white circle
g4 white circle
h4 white circle
c3 white circle
d3 white circle
e3 white circle
b2 white circle
d2 white circle
f2 white circle
a1 white circle
d1 white circle
g1 white circle
Possible moves of the queen

Why are they look so different?? Georgia guy (talk) 01:56, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

This looks like a job for @Bubba73:. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:15, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
I haven't thought about it much, but the king and queen are represented by their crowns. A bishop is represented by the mitre. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 03:42, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
Also, in three dimensions, the height of a chess piece serves as an indicator of its importance (king > queen > bishop > knight > rook > pawn). That's missing when you remove the "height" dimension to get down to two. - Nunh-huh 03:50, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
Not exactly. A rook is more important than a knight or bishop, and a knight can be more important than a bishop. Makers of chess sets that don't know anything about chess make the rook small. In good sets, the rook is a little taller than the knight, but never as tall as the bishop. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 04:03, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
"...Following the old rule, the height of the chess pieces should then...decrease in such a manner that if one drew a diagonal from the top of the king to a pawn, the tops of all the other pieces must be touched by this line."[2] fiveby(zero) 17:09, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
How the chess piece called the queen is represented in computer imagery and in physical chess pieces is arbitrary, but strongly subject to social conventions. Please see Board representation (computer chess) for representation on the screen and Staunton chess set for the style of physical chess pieces developed in 1849 and now used in approved chess competitions worldwide. What both representations have in common for the queen is a symbol of a royal crown, but crown design is also arbitrary. If a chess set used in casual play has queens topped by the letter "Q" or a sphere or a triangle or a photorealistic 3D printed representation of Elizabeth II at age 26 or at age 94, then that is perfectly acceptable as long as both players understand that this piece is the queen. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:55, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Because it's only a symbol.--Shantavira|feed me 10:01, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

These conventional symbols must predate chess-playing computers; they were used in chess textbooks when I was a lad; computers then struggled to play noughts-and-crosses. We have an article, Chess symbols in Unicode, but no clue as to the origin. Alansplodge (talk) 13:59, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
Our History of chess article has a picture of some not too dissimilar symbols published in 1497 which is a LOT earlier than I was expecting. Alansplodge (talk) 14:06, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

As some evidence of the link between symbol and shape, we see that most game diagrams prior to 1820 had employed as symbol for the Queen a closed crown. Roughly thirty years before the development of the Staunton design, chess books increasingly began to use a coronet for the Queen: this is a signal difference marking the Staunton design of chess sets for play apart from all other chess sets.[3], but see the footnote. fiveby(zero) 17:09, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

The diagram pieces are similar to those used in figurine algebraic notation. Physical chess pieces have a few different designs, but in Western sets, the king usually has a cross on top while the queen has a pointy crown. I don't think the queen is even always called the queen: in German, it's "Dame" ("lady"), hence de:Damengambit = Queen's Gambit etc., while in Russian it's "Ferz" (vizier, an advisor to the king). It would be nice to have more photos of different set designs. I see we have an article Dubrovnik chess set which has some pictures comparing this old design to the Staunton pieces we are used to in the West. 2601:648:8202:96B0:25EB:282F:5576:C543 (talk) 23:34, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

In French, the queen is also called dame. Interestingly, the bishops there are fous ("fools") – I don't know if this represents a French anticlerical sentiment. At Wiktionary you can see more translations (press "show" if they are not visible). As to finding images, Wikipedia has a category Chess sets, and Wikimedia Commons has its own category Chess sets, which has images of many designs.  --Lambiam 14:23, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Being pedantic, the queen has a coronet while the king has a crown. Alansplodge (talk) 13:11, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
I don't think the queen is being pedantic in wearing a coronet. She is just wearing what the designer saw fit to put on her head; having been designed without arms, she can't take it off.  --Lambiam 14:24, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Eats shoots and leaves :-) Alansplodge (talk) 15:47, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
In Ukrainian, the bishop is called the 'слон', which means elephant.Hayttom (talk) 15:58, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
They've been represented as having these distinctively different crowns for at least 800 years. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:26, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

November 29[edit]

Did the Soviet Union lay/press any claims on southern Sakhalin before 1945?[edit]

Did the Soviet Union lay/press any claims on southern Sakhalin before 1945? Futurist110 (talk) 08:04, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

While I do not know this for certain, it appears unlikely. In general, the Soviet Union respected the treaties signed by its predecessor, the Russian Empire, and maintained a policy of neutrality in Asia. In the Treaty of Portsmouth, Russia had agreed to the division of Sakhalin. Although there were several Soviet–Japanese border conflicts, these clashes were small-scale undeclared wars provoked by Japan and fought on the borders of Manchukuo or Mongolia, not involving Sakhalin. They were concluded by the Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact of 1941. This policy of neutrality in Asia ended with the invasion by the Soviet Union of Manchukuo on August 9, 1945, as agreed between the Allied powers in the Yalta Conference earlier that year.  --Lambiam 10:22, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
According to Soviet policy toward Japan during World War II by Tsuyoshi Hasegawa, the decision to recover southern Sakhalin was initially suggested by "both the Deputy Commissar of Foreign Affairs, Ivan Maiskii, in January [1944] and the Ambassador to Tokyo, Iakov Malik, in June 1944, in separate memoranda [that] advocated obtaining Soviet borders that would assure the future security of the Soviet Union". Prior to that, the Soviets had been careful not to provoke a war in the east. Alansplodge (talk) 15:21, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
Interesting; thank you very much! I wonder if the conquest of southern Sakhalin really made the Soviet Union that much more secure against Japan. Futurist110 (talk) 22:22, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
Given that Japan has given up military force as a policy, the question does not arise. However, if US (etc) forces were to base on the Southern Sakhalin, that would be a very different matter.DOR (HK) (talk) 20:44, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Excellent point! Futurist110 (talk) 00:57, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Although the US stationed 350,000 troops in Japan after the war, together with 40,000 Commonwealth forces (see Occupation of Japan); probably enough to worry the Soviets. I think the US still has active military bases in mainland Japan and Okinawa. Alansplodge (talk) 16:27, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Yep, I believe that it does! Futurist110 (talk) 00:57, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

What are the earliest sources that mention Saint Nicholas?[edit]

No writings of Saint Nicholas remain, but what are the earliest primary sources that mention Saint Nicholas? I am trying to research Saint Nicholas' life for an essay I am writing. Thanks! Félix An (talk) 17:24, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

The following should be helpful: "Early Evidence". St. Nicholas Center.
And according to the following, "The earliest written reference to St. Nicholas of Myra surfaces about 250 years after the saint’s probable death, in an account of another man named Nicholas." -- Hurt, Carla (24 December 2013). "Saint Nicholas through the Ages". Found in Antiquity.
-- (talk) 17:48, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Native Americans culture[edit]

Native Americans obviously had massive differences in their cultures and ideals, at least as much as Europeans did, and this would very likely shape their societies in various ways. I've found practically no information on these differences in ideals though. Does the information even exist, or is it just not on Wikipedia? I'm looking for is a way to *compare* the cultures of the various Native Americans with each other. There's plenty of information that compares "Native Americans vs. Europeans". (talk) 20:28, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

A lot of the information simply doesn't exist. No written records from the cultures themselves. Many of the cultures had been irrevocably changed or even destroyed before Europeans and European derived peoples started to become interested in the native cultures.--Khajidha (talk) 00:11, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
"Ideals" are a rather abstract thing -- you would have to study a society very intensively to understand its ideals. Clyde Kluckhohn apparently studied the differences between the Zuni and the Navajo... AnonMoos (talk) 06:17, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Our article Native American cultures in the United States has shortcomings but it includes 46 references, and presumably many of them are useful for your quest for a better understanding of this broad topic. Deep understanding of these cultures before 1492 is complicated by the absence of written records, and the cultures of settled agricultural communities are obviously radically different than the cultures of nomadic hunter-gatherer societies with dominant warrior traditions. When considering iconic Plains Indian warrior cultures like the Comanche, the Cheyenne and the Souix peoples, it is impossible to disregard the fact that these were entirely horse-centered cultures, and that it was European peoples who introduced horses to North America, thereby inadvertently making those warrior cultures possible. There are many similar intellectual pitfalls when studying the complex and tragic history of these cultures since 1492. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:44, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
That's a good point, still I have looked at the sources you mentioned and I find they have gone very far towards answering my question. Thank you. (talk) 20:24, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Very interesting! (talk) 20:24, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

A group having a huge diaspora population in a particular place in spite of having no history of territorial control over this place?[edit]

Which cases were there of a group having a huge diaspora population in a particular place in spite of having no history of territorial control over this place? I could think of the Russian Germans, various groups (Germans, Italians, Poles, Ukrainians, et cetera) in the Americas, Jews in much of the world (including the Americas), Romani people in Europe, Chinese people in Southeast Asia, the Western world, and elsewhere, Indian people and other South Asians in Sub-Saharan Africa, Southeast Asia, the Middle East, the Western world, and elsewhere, black people in the Americas and the Western world, Latin Americans (Hispanics and Latinos) in the United States and the rest of the non-Hispanophone Western world, Koreans in Central Asia (Koryo-Saram), Sakhalin (Sakhalin Koreans), the Western world (example: Korean-Americans), and elsewhere, et cetera. However, exactly which cases of this am I missing here? Futurist110 (talk) 22:28, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

The Japanese in Brazil and other parts of South America for one. Armenians are also scattered all over the world, with some notable concentrations in places like California, Canada, Argentina, Australia and so on. Lebanese communities are just as far flung. There are also large Indian (from India) populations in the Caribbean, Eastern and southern Africa, and various islands like Fiji, Mauritius etc. Xuxl (talk) 22:39, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
Yep, I mentioned Indians in my OP here (though I could have been more explicit about places such as Fiji in regards to this), but the Japanese and Lebanese are certainly nice additions to my list here! You can also find both Japanese and Chinese people in places such as Hawaii even nowadays. Futurist110 (talk) 03:52, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, the Lebanese diaspora is huge. There are more Lebanese living abroad than within Lebanon, and they've had a significant impact in a variety of places. Mexican al pastor is said to be an adaptation of shawarma brought by the Lebanese. Probably the best hospital in South America is Hospital Sírio-Libanês (that is, Syrian-Lebanese Hospital). Brazilians also enjoy Lebanese-Syrian sfiha as a street food, and they have a sandwich called a Beirute. And this is just stuff I know off the top of my head. (talk) 23:45, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
Good example! Futurist110 (talk) 03:52, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Hispanics did have control over large parts of the current US, though.--Khajidha (talk) 00:13, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Over the Southwestern US and Florida, Yes. (Though it's worth noting that most Hispanic migration to these places likely occurred after–in some cases, long after–these places already came under US rule.) To other parts of the US, either No or nowhere near to the same extent. Futurist110 (talk) 01:12, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
That's really only (undisputably) true of Florida, though (the diaspora of Cuba's upper class which fled the 1959 revolution). The case of Mexicans in the border states cannot in my mind properly be called a 'diaspora', because as was noted the border states were Mexico previously (including Nevada and Utah, which had been part of the Mexican state of Alta California's territory), and most of the Mexican inhabitants living in those places remained. As for the rest of the states - are there really huge numbers of Hispanic/Latino people those states? Other than Puerto Ricans in some of the northeastern cities and such? (And Puerto Rico being a US territory and all Puerto Ricans being US citizens anyway, Puerto Ricans living in the States (per se) wouldn't really count either. Firejuggler86 (talk) 18:37, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
AFAIK, though, a lot of the Hispanics even in the Southwestern US don't have deep roots in that region but instead only moved here after 1850 or so. Yes, there was an indigenous Hispanic community here in 1848, but its size wasn't very large (several hundred thousand in all of the Mexican Cession at the very most in 1848, I believe), and I just can't believe that natural growth alone could account for the extremely massive growth in the Hispanic population in the Southwestern US over the last 170 years (1850 to 2020). Futurist110 (talk) 00:26, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

How huge is huge? Britain has substantial immigrant and post-imigrant populations from the former empire (Ireland, India and various other South Asian countries,the Caribbean, Cyprus and Africa) and other parts of Europe and Asia (Poland and other Eastern European countries who came during and after World War 2 and more recently, and Turkey.) The Chinese are perhaps between the two types-some came from Hong Kong and Malaysia as well as possibly mainland China) Going further back there were other immigrants who have become assimilated completely from France, Belgium and Holland. France has substantial populations of African and South East Asian origin. There are also Turks in Germany, Africans in Portugal and various others in Holland etc etc.Spinney Hill (talk) 10:19, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Interesting information! Futurist110 (talk) 00:26, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Would you count places like Quebec with the French? --Jayron32 12:47, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
The French had a "history of territorial control" over Quebec until relieved of it by James Wolfe. Alansplodge (talk) 13:08, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Yep! Futurist110 (talk) 00:26, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Although small in absolute size, the Javanese Surinamese form a substantial fraction of the population of Suriname.  --Lambiam 13:55, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
That would be because they were both Dutch colonial possessions. The situation is similar with the Asian communities in the formerly British east Africa countries (eg Kenya, Uganda). Those would technically satisfy the conditions of the OP, in that the countries in question did not have territorial control of the countries of origin of their immigrant populations. However, I'd think that violates the spirit of the question. Fgf10 (talk) 17:56, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Yep; correct! Futurist110 (talk) 00:26, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

@Futurist110: I'm trying to understand your yep. Fgf10 said "countries in question did not have territorial control of the countries of their immigrant populations". However in your original question you said "were there of a group having a huge diaspora population in a particular place in spite of having no history of territorial control over this place". The latter seems to require the diaspora population had territorial control over the place where they settled. So your original question seemed to preclude British migrants in South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, India, Malaysia etc. However it didn't preclude Indians in the UK since the UK controlled parts of India but India never controlled the UK. By the same token, Americans in the Philippines would be excluded per History of the Philippines (1898–1946) but Filipinos in the US would not be.

Anyway assuming you do wish to preclude most South Asians in the UK and Filipinos in the US; and you also you wish to exclude Javanese Surinamese and Indians populations in the former British east Africa countries for the reason give my Fgf10, I'm not sure it makes sense to include many of the other Indian and other South Asian populations you've included. As articles like Malaysian Indians mention, many of these migrations came over during colonial rule e.g. under the Kangani system. I believe it's the same for Indo-Caribbeans.

The situation in Australia and New Zealand is similarly interesting. While technically these countries never had control over any part of South Asia, and most of their South Asian migrants are recent, they were part of the British Empire which did include India and Ceylon. (You get a similar situation for the Cape Malays.) The situation in Australia is a complicated by it being a penal colony and other factors, definitely in NZ I'm fairly sure that historically a large proportion of their settler population considered themselves a proud part of the British Empire e.g. Anno Domini 2000, or, Woman's Destiny or to some extent Australian and New Zealand Army Corps.

While things are very different now, this IMO reflects why NZ and Australia never colonised India or Ceylon may be true but complicated. I think there may be some similarities in Canada. The situation int he US is different since the parts which were British colonies were long gone by the time of India or Ceylon although there is the period of Company rule in India which overlapped. Of course the histories here do raise another issue namely they are a significant factor in the significance of English in all these areas, and that's one factor in making immigration more favourable. You get the same thing for most ethnic Chinese migrants from Hong Kong, Malaysia and Singapore who were a reasonable percentage of Chinese migrants to NZ and Australia at one stage, now generally overtaken by Chinese from mainland China.

When you look into the Philippines things get even more complicated since the colonial history has meant both Spanish language in the Philippines and Philippine English with the latter now taking on far greater importance significantly influenced by US, not British, colonial history. English is again one factor in favourable migration to English dominant places outside the US like Australia, New Zealand and much of Canada.

Yet in the modern world, the earlier success of the British Empire followed by the rise of the US has meant English has become the lingua franca so it's now becoming a factor even in places with no colonial history.)

Nil Einne (talk) 10:27, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

We can go as granular as we like here! :) Futurist110 (talk) 00:26, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Han Chinese in Taiwan? The dynasties knew of the island, but did not administer it directly until shortly before Japan made it a colony in 1895. Mainlanders again ruled it from the Mainland in 1945-49, and thereafter from the island itself, until 1987. DOR (HK) (talk) 20:47, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
So, who ruled Taiwan before 1895? As in, which Chinese? Futurist110 (talk) 00:26, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
There is also Y Wladfa, a Welsh settlement in Argentina. (talk) 13:26, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Yep, I've heard of them! Futurist110 (talk) 00:26, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Chinese people in Jamaica. (This is a subset of 'elsewhere'.) Hayttom (talk) 16:01, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Very interesting! Futurist110 (talk) 00:26, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Apparently there are either several thousand or several tens of thousands Chinese Jamaicans in total. Futurist110 (talk) 00:27, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

November 30[edit]

Help with finding Articles of Countries[edit]

This may seem sort of strange, and badly written since this is my first time asking a question, but would anyone know of a program of sorts or a category tag or even another article itself that would hold information about every article, on the English wiki at the very least, of every Country? And by this I mean not just countries that're around right now, I mean every Article of a country, regardless of how truly independent it was or how much information is on the article.

This isn't for business reasons but for personal reasons, and trust me if I knew how to search for every country article already I gladly would, but with over 50+ million articles on the English wiki itself I doubt I'd ever manage to get to the end on my own.

Thanks if anyone does help with this, I'll see one day if not to try and search myself, or learn a faster way -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:6000:1513:C2B1:601E:36FD:4B2D:2DAA (talk) 07:49, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

If you go to Category:Countries, you'll see various links that progressively get you to every country, and each country's category (e.g. Category:Spain) will contain a great many links to sub-categories and articles about stuff relevant to that country. Start there. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 08:22, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
There are templates for linking <topic> between countries; they appear at the bottom of the relevant countries topic page. Note however, there are some countries with limited recognition, which may or may not be listed below. LongHairedFop (talk) 09:30, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Template:World_topic Template:African_topic Template:Americas_topic Template:Asian_topic Template:European_topic Template:Oceania_topic

There's also the feature Special:PrefixIndex for getting a list of pages that start with a certain string, which generates lists like all pages starting with Latvian or all pages starting with Botswana. Just sub your own string in after (NB it is case sensitive). (talk) 19:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Traitors in the Camp[edit]

On December 30, 1881 a letter to the editor by Lewis Carroll with the title "Traitors in the Camp" appeared in the St James's Gazette (about ritualist tendencies in the Anglican Church or something like that). I succeeded to find scans or at least the text of all his other contributions to that newspaper, but this one I couldn't find. That's why I ask you for help. Can anyone find a scan or transcript of that letter?

I already looked in (which is where I got most of the other letters from), but the year 1881 is missing there. In Life and Letters Collingwood quotes some of the letters to the St James's Gazette, but not this one. The Lewis Carroll Handbook (and other bibliographies) don't mention any reprint (but that's from 1979, so by now there could be one). The Pamphlets of Lewis Carroll series by the LCSNA ( doesn't reprint it (that's where I have another letter from 1881 from). The title of the letter isn't ideal to search for it with Google. And I can't think of another way to search for that letter.

So, are you able to find it? -- (talk) 18:50, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I can at least tell you that it was published in full in the seventh volume of Edward Wakeling's edition of Carroll's Diaries, but using such of it as appears in Google Books' snippet view to serve as a search term doesn't turn up any results. It seems there's no full text of the letter within reach of Google. --Antiquary (talk) 21:35, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Not on HathiTrust either, at least in full-text (the Wakeling edition of the diaries does come up so you can at least consider it confirmed). The phrase "that genial and simple-minded abstraction" seems to be a good search query for it. But I don't see it anywhere. Your best bet is probably to try and get a librarian someplace that has the book mentioned above (ISBN 0904117065) to scan and e-mail you the page(s) (beginning at 388 according to HathiTrust) as a sort of interlibrary loan. (talk) 23:55, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
I don't know if he would've used it on a letter to the editor, but did you try searching for Carroll's real name (Dodgson)? -- (talk) 23:58, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Here is how much I could extract using search magic:
Sir, – Would the British public – that genial and simple-minded abstraction that stands for ever on the broad grin, with its hands in its pockets, always ready for a game of "Open your mouths and shut your eyes!" – would that amiable and ecstatic infant be deeply surprised to learn what are the "wheels within wheels" that move that great moral enigma, the Church Association? Would it shudder, or simply chuckle, to be told that among the most influential supporters of that Society – not its most prominent members, observe; not those whose names are flaunted like a banner in the eyes of an admiring world; but those far more powerful background figures, the wire-pullers – are to be found: first, certain advanced Ritualists, bold spirits whose further advance is only checked by the thought that the next step would be to Rome; secondly, certain actual members of the greatest, the most secret, and the most unscrupulous of all fraternities, the Jesuits?
    The battle is set in array, and the Church Association advances to the fight. In the foreground caper the band of skirmishers, yelling with Protestant enthusiasm, haunted by no shadow of a doubt but that the cry "To gaol with them!" so stealthily suggested by an invisible prompter, is the war-cry that must shortly change into the pæon victory. But glance a little further back into that dark tent where certain figures in masks and cloaks are gathered in secret consultation. Why do these warriors hide their faces? Dare they not face the light of day? And what mean these constant relays of messengers that leave them ever and anon, and, creeping through the brushwood and carefully skirting the edges of the fight, go off at full speed to the headquarters of the foe? Is there treachery in the camp? The thing is possible.
    If it be not so, then who is it – in the name of outraged common sense I ask the question – who has invented this worse than suicidal policy, the imprisonment of Ritualists? Does any sane man suppose that any persecuted Ritualist does not thankfully seize the opportunity of posing as a martyr? Does any sane man doubt, when the English Church Union hold their monster indignation meetings, and loudly protest against the imprisonment of their champions, that each of the furious
At that point I reached a barrier that did not yield to any of my dog-Latin incantations.  --Lambiam 00:34, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
A bit more:
"...furious orators is really thrilled with a secret delight? "Oh let us be joyful!" Would be the opening chorus of all such meetings, if only they dared show the "hand" they hold in this deep and dangerous game. Let all who love the Reformed Church of England pause and ponder. And do not be taken in, oh too-easily gullible British public, by all these piteous outcries. “Why, oh, why do you imprison us?” cries the orator. “We are the lambs and you the wolves! We do but stand up for Truth, for the Right, for the..."
Alansplodge (talk) 11:36, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
"...for the Right, for the Church! Why will you not let us alone? We never persecute you! We never drive you into prison!” And the wail rises into a shriek; but as it dies away, if you put your ear close and hold your breath, you may chance to hear him mutter, in quite another tone, “ We are such fools!” And if you watch him narrowly you may even be lucky to catch the crafty smile that flits like a dream across those quivering lips, and to detect a quiet twinkle in the eyes so lately brimming over with crocodilian tears. Such was the tone of a recent manifesto, issued by the president of the English Church Union, where he spoke of those who have suffered legal penalties for disobeying their Bishops, in language that would not have been out of place if he had been describing martyrs who have chosen death rather than abjure their faith." End of paragraph. Can anyone else pick up the baton? --Antiquary (talk) 13:02, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
    "And in prison," so chorus the delighted English Church Union, "because he conscientiously refuses obedience to a secular court." It is mere waste of breath to point out to these impassioned orators that he also refuses obedience to his ecclesiastical superior, the Bishop whom he has solemnly sworn to obey: the argument has no more hold upon them than a syllogism has upon a lady, or a drop of rain upon a duck. They have even discovered a new and most astonishing axiom in morals – that whatever you are ordered to do by any one to whom you owe no allegiance you may rightly refuse to do, even if it be also ordered by a lawful authority. This is very much as if some sturdy Briton should vindicate his freedom from French control by obstinately refusing obedience to English laws wherever the two national codes happened to agree. The only consolation, which the Protestant portion of the English Church (under which title I include all, whether High, Low, or Broad, who hold to the principles of the Reformation) are likely to find in the present miserable state of things, is the thought that now at last we have a crucial test as to whether Ritualism is or is not suited to the genius of the English nation. "You have had every chance," they can now say to the Ritualists: "your choral services have charmed our ears, your rich vestments our eyes, and even your incense our noses! And now you have the darling wish of your heart: you are persecuted: you can appeal to the ineradicable instinct which ever impels John Bull to side with the persecuted, be he right or wrong. Fortune can do no more for you: you must stand or fall by your present chance: if persecution will not popularize Ritualism, nothing will!”
    Let me quote in conclusion the following sentence from an unpublished work – a Revised Version of the English Prayer Book. I entirely decline to say how I obtained it, and will merely remark that important documents sometimes see the light sooner than their authors intended:–
    Then again a barrier, so close (I think) to the end.  --Lambiam 16:37, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Wow! Thanks a lot! I was able to get the end of the letter, though there still is a gap: If these few words should cause even only one of the supporters of the Church Association to "take stock," and to cast a wary look around him before he again lends his voice to the insane cry of "Imprison them!" this little trumpet-blast will not have been blown in vain. – I am, Sir, your obedient servant, Lewis Carroll. December 24. (Date and name are actually on the same line, but I think transcribing it this way makes more sense.) -- (talk) 18:54, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Here is the last missing bit:
        Q. Will you reverently obey your Ordinary, and other chief ministers, unto whom is committed the charge and government over you, following with a glad mind and will their godly admonitions, and submitting yourself to their godly judgments?
        A. I will reverently obey them (when they order that which I desire to do); I will gladly follow their godly admonitions (when they admonish those who oppose me); and I will submit myself to their godly judgments (whensoever and wheresoever they will submit their godly judgments to me).
    If these few words
 --Lambiam 14:54, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) Hi all, with nothing to do I was randomly scrolling through the Ref Desk pages, and came across the St James's Gazette. It was a pleasure (mea culpa) to attempt to enlarge the article from a stub, coming across so many well-known literary figures in the process. I also recently came across a mention of Alfred Harmsworth contributing aged 17-18 to the Gazette; is there any chance someone could also summarise Carroll's contributions (with dates, refs even? etc.), and I'll try to stick them both in. Well done with your impressive sleuthing, btw. Cheers, >MinorProphet (talk) 04:02, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
It's not easy to summarise more than 30 letters written under 3 different names during 10 years (Carroll more or less followed Greenwood from the Pall Mall Gazette to the St James's Gazette) on various topics, but Roger Lancelyn Green article "Lewis Carroll and the St. James's Gazette" in Notes and Queries, Volume 188, Issue 7, 7 April 1945 ( is a good start. There are some mistakes and omissions, though:
As you can see from above, the letter "Traitors in the Camp" (not named but mentioned by Green) is not about the same topic as "The Purity of Election". He misses two untitled letter from 23 March 1882 and 7 August 1884 about politics, the first signed "Lewis Carroll", the second "Dynamite". There was also another letter belonging to the "Proportionate Representation"/"Redistribution" letters, titled "Parliamentary Elections", 5 July 1884. Next came on 19 March 1885 "Vivisection Vivisected" (as all his other letters about vivisection under the name "Lewis Carroll").
The three children he wrote about in "Children in Theatres" weren't the Bowmans, and from the letter "What to Call a 'Telephone-Message'" Green misquotes Carroll's suggestion, it should be "teltale".
He (and most bibliographies) also miss three letters "To All Readers of 'Alice's Adventures Under Ground'", 13 December 1887, 11 December 1888, and 10 December 1889, as announced in the preface to "Alice's Adventures Under Ground".
The most important of these are certainly those about proportionate representation, published in the same year in enlarged form as The Principles of Parliamentary Representation. -- (talk) 18:35, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

December 1[edit]

was George Wishart Lutheran ?[edit]

was George Wishart Lutheran ? the article at Scottish Reformation Parliament seems to indicate so. however there is not much support for this on Wikipedia. for example the article George Wishart says he was most certainly a "student at the University of Leuven" and "may have visited Germany and Switzerland". Early modern Britain refers to him as a "Proto-Calvinist" ,whilst Kingdom of Scotland says he was "Zwingli-influenced".since John Knox visited Germany, and is referred to as Presbyterian, would it be accurate to call George Wishart Lutheran ? Gfigs (talk) 08:37, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Luther's Scottish Connection (p. 70) says that Wishart "helped to promote the Swiss brand of reform". Alansplodge (talk) 11:27, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
George Wishart: His Life and Influence on the Reformation says: "While on the Continent, he came under the influence of the Swiss and German Reformers. His introduction to them had a profound effect upon him and he became a convinced Calvinist". Alansplodge (talk) 13:25, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
yes, and as mentioned, the influence of Huldrych Zwingli, who was Swiss..there does seem to be some certainty that Wishart visited Germany. for instance Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)-John Knox says : "George Wishart, who had come home from his travels in Germany a confirmed Protestant". most surely he was influenced by Luther. John Calvin however, also lived in Swizerland, after fleeing France. notice that Scottish religion in the seventeenth century mentions : "The 16th century Reformation created a Church of Scotland, popularly known as the kirk, predominantly Calvinist in doctrine and Presbyterian in structure"..have not found much more to indicate that Wishart was trying to promote Lutheranism in Scotland Gfigs (talk) 13:52, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

since John Knox was influenced so much by George Wishart ..would be nice to find greater support for the possibility of Wishart's having been Christianity in the 16th century mentions : "1572 John Knox, founded Scottish Presbyterian Church, due to disagreement with Lutherans over sacraments and church government" Gfigs (talk) 15:04, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

"Dictionary of National Biography - John Knox" refers to Wishart as a "champion of Lutheran doctrines" .not surprising that there may have been some disagreements. Gfigs (talk) 16:08, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
"Catholic Encyclopedia(1913)-The Reformation" mentions at least three other Reformers who may have been Scottish Lutherans : "Patrick Hamilton, Henry Forest, and Alexander Seton". There is also Alexander Ales Gfigs (talk) 22:15, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Long form of M.R.A.S.?[edit]


1) What is long form of M.R.A.S. mentioned in Thomas Hughes (priest)'s s:Index:A dictionary of Islam.djvu?

2) I do have more questions on Thomas Hughes (priest)'s like in 1885 AD being at a far off corner of Peshawar he seems to have built fairly close book on Islam s:Index:A dictionary of Islam.djvu the most surprising part he had quoted Saud to Ottoman letter. This brings questions to one's mind how did he collect sources on Islam and Saud from beyond India sitting in at a far off corner of Peshawar?

Thanks Bookku (talk) 09:04, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

MRAS = Member of the Royal Asiatic Society. DuncanHill (talk) 09:23, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
And as for Peshawar, it was hardly a backwater. Hughes would have had access to Islamic scholars in the city, and as a member of the RAS he would have been in correspondence with experts far and wide. DuncanHill (talk) 14:42, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

@DuncanHill: As you said he seems to have had access to information through R.A.S. network. And very likely some good local scholar seems to have helped him. Thanks for sharing the information and warm regards. Bookku (talk) 02:28, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Soiled Dove[edit]

Why was it called the Soiled Dove Plea? "Soiled" and "dove" don't appear in the text. Marnanel (talk) 15:12, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Apparently "soiled dove" was an American 19th century euphemism for a prostitute. [4] A Dictionary of Slang, Jargon and Cant (1890) p. 276 Alansplodge (talk) 15:23, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
I have added this to the article. Alansplodge (talk) 09:04, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

John F. McDonnell[edit]

I discovered John F. McDonnell has a photo available at the Wayback Machine, then I uploaded to Wikipedia, anyone who can help me to confirm this photo is acceptable for fair use, or he has a photo can be used under a free license? --Great Brightstar (talk) 15:46, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Try Wikimedia Commons Help Desk. Alansplodge (talk) 15:54, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Generally speaking, where someone is still alive Wikipedia doesn’t allow fair use images of that person. Either the image needs to be freely licensed or a different photo with free licensing must be found. 2601:248:527E:88D0:BC25:A0E1:9E1C:3E33 (talk) 18:18, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Unknown Nazi Badge/Medal[edit]

My friend was given some old medals. We have identified most of them but this one. For some reason we can't find anything on it. The closest we have found a Nazi mountain tour medal. I'd add a picture, but wiki wont let me add the photo for some reason.

Description: Flower with a shield in the middle, golden colored bits around the shield, bottom part of the shield has Nazi symbol, then above that there is what seems to be a black tower on a black hill or mountain that has different levels.

Picture of the front of the medal:

Picture of the back of the medal: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobafet395 (talkcontribs) 21:39, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

This site [5] has some details. Fut.Perf. 21:51, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Well done! Some background is at Kyffhäuserbund (basically a veteran's association). Alansplodge (talk) 23:27, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

December 2[edit]

The Christmas Public Holiday In Scotland (1958) - Part 1[edit]

Christmas in Scotland mentions that : "A 1640 Act of the Parliament of Scotland abolished the Yule Vacance (Christmas recess).. [and that] Christmas Day did not become a public holiday in Scotland until 1958." who in Parliament proposed this decision to restore Christmas, and make it a public holiday, in Scotland, and why and how did it come about ? Gfigs (talk) 05:16, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Curiously, this House of Commons debate suggests that Christmas Day (but not Boxing Day) was already a Scottish bank holiday in 1938. A search of Hansard for 1957 and 1958 yielded no results. Alansplodge (talk) 08:52, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Bank Holidays Act 1871 says that "The Act designated four bank holidays in England, Wales and Ireland... and five in Scotland (New Year's Day; Good Friday; First Monday in May; First Monday in August and Christmas Day)". Alansplodge (talk) 09:01, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
thank you, there is a citation in 1958 in Scotland under Events and 25 December, although not sure how to interpret this.. Gfigs (talk) 09:43, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
It may rest on the difference between a bank holiday (when technically only the banks have to close) and a public holiday. Anecdotally, my mother who spent part of her childhood in Glasgow, says that Christmas was a noirmal working day in the early 1930s, so perhaps only office workers had the day off? Alansplodge (talk) 09:45, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
A couple of literary references to confirm this for England: in A Christmas Carol, when Scrooge wakes on Christmas day he sends a boy to a poulterer's to buy a turkey for Bob Cratchit (who was grudgingly given the day off); and The Diary of a Nobody has the entry: "CHRISTMAS DAY.—We caught the 10.20 train at Paddington, and spent a pleasant day at Carrie’s mother’s." AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:15, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
We have an article on Public and bank holidays in Scotland which looks at the difference between bank holidays and public holidays. The Scottish government has a page where you can look up bank and public holidays. DuncanHill (talk) 12:04, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
And looking at, for example, Aberdeen City Council, we see Christmas Day listed as a local public holiday. On the Scottish govt. website it is listed as a bank holiday. So it's both a bank holiday and a public holiday. DuncanHill (talk) 12:07, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Is now, but was it in 1958? That's the crux of the question. Alansplodge (talk) 17:57, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
You'd have to check each Scottish council competent to declare local public holidays that existed at the time. DuncanHill (talk) 20:50, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Correction to Alansplodge's comments :The extra holiday in Scotland mentioned in the 1871 Act was New Years' Day which was not a holiday in England and Wales until 1974. The May bank holiday was not the first Monday in May but Whit Monday. For those who may not be familiar with the words "Whit Monday," it is the day after Whitsunday which is a Christian festival the date of which varies in the same way as Easter. It is defined as seven weeks after Easter. Whit Monday was replaced as a Bank Holiday in the 1960s or 70s because of commercial pressure to fix the day.. Whitsun is still celebrated by the Church but the bank holiday is now the last Monday in May. 1 May did not become a bank holiday until later It was introduced by the Labour Government in 1978 as not only was it a traditional holiday which was no longer observed but it was also the international Labour Day (not the same as the US Labor Day.) It was at first always to be 1 May unless that fell on a Saturday or Sunday and the first Monday in May 1978 happened to be 1 May but from 1979 it has always been the first Monday in May except when replaced by another date completely (eg 8 May 2020 to celebrate 75 years since VE day.Spinney Hill (talk) 01:11, 4 December 2020 (UTC)) Note also that in England and Wales there is no statutory concept of a public holiday except as "bank holidays" but according to the article on the 1871 Act Christmas was generally observed as a holiday in England and Wales and it was not thought necessary to make it a Bank Holiday. I remember buses and trains running on Christmas Day and my father said professional football (soccer) matches were played on Christmas morning.before World War II. I'd be interested to know when this stopped. Pubs are normally not open in the evening now but are still (Covid rules permitting) open for a morning/early afternoon session. Boxing Day and St Stephen's Day are the same day (26 December-i.e. the day after Christmas Day)Spinney Hill (talk) 13:53, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Correction Spinney Hill; it wasn't really my comment, I pasted the text directly from the WP article. Some work needed there methinks. I'm not sure whether Whitsun was originally a holiday in Scotland, since the Presbyterians rejected the Catholic idea of a liturgical calendar; hence the lack of Christmas celebrations. Alansplodge (talk) 17:57, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Not sure how reliable this is, but Richmond Library Services - The Origins of Bank Holidays says: "The first bank holidays were Easter Monday, Whit Monday, the first Monday in August and Boxing Day, in England, Wales and Ireland. In Scotland they were New Year’s Day, Good Friday, the first Monday in May, the first Monday in August, and Christmas Day". No luck finding the actual text of the act. Alansplodge (talk) 18:44, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

would like to mention James Edgar ,who first came up with the idea of dressing up as Santa Claus for Christmas. and the wife of Charles Dickens ,Catherine ,both of whom were born in Edinburgh.. Gfigs (talk) 05:20, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

there seems to be some conflict as to how the decision to make Christmas a public holiday may have come about. as Public and bank holidays in Scotland says :

Unlike the rest of United Kingdom, most bank holidays are not recognised as statutory public holidays in Scotland, as most public holidays are determined by local authorities across Scotland.

whilst Wakes Week mentions :

Councils no longer have a statutory power to set dates for public holidays following the introduction of the Employment Act 1989 and the Local Government etc. (Scotland) Act 1994.

its possible that at the time (1958), the decision may have been taken by every council..would require some clarification though, and possibly details of the act. that might in someway be linked to the Christmas Day and New Year’s Day Trading (Scotland) Act 2007 referenced here Gfigs (talk) 05:21, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Where did Joseph Russell and Ann Birney live ?[edit]

where did Charles Taze Russell 's Scotch-Irish parents : Joseph Lytel Russell (1813–1897) and Ann Eliza Birney (1825–1861) live, before moving to the US ? the only reference have been able to find online is a scan, of an obituary in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (18 Dec 1897) that says that "Joseph L. Russell..was born near Londonderry, Ireland..and immigrated [to the US] about 1845." have tried to contact the newspaper, although received no reply as yet, confirming this.. Gfigs (talk) 06:31, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

This has some more information about the Russel family. Alansplodge (talk) 10:03, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
thank you. not much interest on this online, unfortunately.. Gfigs (talk) 03:58, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Here the place of death of Joseph Lytel Russell is given as Allegheny, Pennsylvania. This is confirmed by this newspaper clipping, which also identifies this as his residence. His grave is at Allegheny Cemetery, now in Pittsburgh, as is the grave of his first wife, at the same lot, apparently a family plot. Her place of death is given as Pittsburgh (which could have been in a hospital). The birth place of his daughter Mabel Rosa Russell in 1880 (from a second marriage) is given as Massachusetts, but she married after her father's death in "Pittsburgh, Allegheny, Pennsylvania". The first link also identifies Joseph Lytel Russell as registered in the "household of C T Russel" in the United States Census of 1880, which also places him at Pittsburgh (or Allegheny) at the time. This is an obituary penned by Charles Taze Russell. Joseph Lytel Russell's second wife, Emma H. Ackley, was born in Pittsburgh but died in 1929 in Saint Petersburg, Florida.  --Lambiam 14:22, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
apologies, am trying to establish exactly where near Londonderry/Derry, N.Ireland, C.T.Russells parents lived..hopefully a town, and street address..and possibly, name of the church (Presbyterian) that they attended.. Gfigs (talk) 14:46, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps you'll be lucky, perhaps there's some American document that provides the information you want, but normally this kind of question remains unanswered because of the Irish Public Record Office explosion in 1922, which destroyed most of Ireland's historical records. --Antiquary (talk) 16:18, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

oh, interesting..thank you.. Gfigs (talk) 17:25, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Preemptive pardons?[edit]

I see stories from several reputable news organizations speculating about Trump preemptively pardoning family members and cronies. How can you pardon someone who hasn't (yet) been charged, much less convicted, of anything? Clarityfiend (talk) 06:51, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, President Ford did it for Richard Nixon, and if there were any attempts to prosecute him after that, I think we'd know. So presumably the US Department of Justice believes you can do it. -- (talk) 06:59, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Federal pardons in the United States says "Pardons have been used for presumptive cases, such as when President Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon... but the Supreme Court has never ruled on the legality of such pardons... And the ability of a president to pardon himself (self-pardon) has never been tested in the courts, because, to date, no president has ever taken that action". Alansplodge (talk) 10:23, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
It's a slippery slope. With the new report of the DOJ investigating bribes in exchange for pardons, if Trump pardons himself, Biden could pardon himself and all the other living ex-presidents and anyone else who might be touched by it. Note that the president cannot pardon anyone for state-level crimes, only federal crimes. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:40, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
How can you pardon someone who hasn't (yet) been charged, much less convicted, of anything? It functions very similarly to a grant of immunity from prosecution in that case. The remaining complaints about the use of the pardon power where there's a conflict of interest are generally more public policy issues than anything grounded in constitutional law. I strongly advise ignoring commentary in the news media and actually reading the legal scholarship directly. (talk) 14:02, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Well, speak of the (orange) devil. NBC News must have heard my plea: "Could Trump pardon family members if they haven't been charged with a crime?", which pretty much confirms what you all have been saying. Thanks. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:16, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
It's not a new topic: discussion of this has been happening for a while, at least since the Arpaio pardon a while back (Arpaio was convicted, but claimed innocence and hadn't exhausted appeals iirc). Plus, of course, there was Nixon much earlier.

In the case of Trump's possible pardons (e.g. for PPP loan fraud), I wonder whether there are any state authorities to go after the people involved, in the event that Trump gives them federal pardons. 2601:648:8202:96B0:25EB:282F:5576:C543 (talk) 01:54, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

19th century hairstyle[edit]

I've noticed that in the 1st half of the 19th century many men and women had a characteristic hairstyle of short, slightly curly and wavy hairs, e.g. here during Napoleon's coronation, but also on many individual portraits. Did they maintain some artificial haircare, e.g. by applying something on the hair, in addition to trimming? This doesn't seem to be artistic portrait convention or one's individual traits. (talk) 15:15, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

See Macassar oil. Alansplodge (talk) 18:49, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

The Times[edit]

Who is the author of this source? Don't want to sign up for an account to figure out. Or is it anonymous?

KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:31, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

The lead paragraph of that article suggests Andy Martin. This seems to be the same chap as Andy Martin (author) who is described thus: "Martin was the first surfing correspondent to The Times (London)". BTW, the full title of the piece is Britain's original beach boys. Alansplodge (talk) 23:15, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Great thanks I didn't even see that at the subheading! KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:44, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
This webpage (almost unreadable with its weird colour scheme, and not a RS) confirms this: 'The first article ran in The Times (of London) with the headline “Britain’s original beach boys” and was written by Andy Martin. It was published on April 9, 2012. Sandy said it is about two famous Hawaiian Princes surfing in the North Sea of Great Britain in 1889.'  --Lambiam 13:37, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
The Times article is referenced in the section History of surfing#Great Britain as: Martin, Andy (April 9, 2012). "Britain's original beach boys". The Times. London. Retrieved December 2, 2020. It identifies the princes as "David Kahalepouli Kawanaankoa Piikoi and Jonah Kuhio Kalanianaole Pikkoi [sic]".  --Lambiam 13:50, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
I made that formatting change yesterday based on the information here.KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:58, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

December 3[edit]

Looking for a poem by Hans Sachs.[edit]

I'm trying to find a poem by the German poet Hans Sachs, preferably in English translation. The poem is called 'Der Kremer/Kramer mit der affen' or 'The merchant with the apes' and it tells the story of the travelling peddler who falls asleep and has his wares stolen by monkeys/apes...a popular motif from the middle ages. I can find descriptions of it, but no actual source, thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:26, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

I think 'Der Kremer mit den affen' is the correct title.
This book on GB gives a summary of the poem and points towards a source, but I can't quite work out who Niklas(?) Vogel was.
The most I can come up without excess effort is with is a handwritten copy (MS perhaps by Sachs himself?) of Dis mein dreyzehent puech mit Comed(ien) vnd spruechen - SG 13 Spruchgedichte, page 117r, [pdf 245], from 17 August 1558 to 16 August 1559. Click on the diagonal arrows (top right) for the left hand menu. Seems to last for about 4 pages. Ping me if you need vague help deciphering/translating. Best of luck. MinorProphet (talk) 05:11, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for digging that out. If you google for "Hans Sachs" and "Ein kramer sein kramerey trug", you'll find a print version on It's a slightly different one from the handwritten document linked to above (there, the first line is "Ein kramer seinen Kramkorb trug"), but people will probably find it easier to read. Fut.Perf. 12:17, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Ahh, this one, thank you. It's fairly hilarious. Dated 19th December 1558, still relevant. The opening of the MS version scans better: the metre reminds me of Hoffmansthal's "Sie trug den Becher in der Hand", but that's another story. MinorProphet (talk) 13:36, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Here the fable is titled "Der kremer mit den affen" (note the lower-case "k"), and the first line is: "Ein kremer seinen kramkorb truͤeg,". In Modern German orthography, this becomes: "Ein Krämer seinen Kramkorb trug,". Unlike "kramerey", "kramkorb" fits the iambic tetrametre of the fable.  --Lambiam 13:27, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Medieval French poem[edit]

Working on the article for the 14th-century French composer F. Andrieu; he set to music two poems by Eustache Deschamps to music for the death of Guillaume de Machaut. There's a line ("The fount of Dirce, the fountain of Helie") where I'm not sure what "Dirce" or "Helie" is referring to? (I assume the former is Dirce but I'm not sure, and have no idea of about "Helie") I put the stanza that this line begins below if that helps, thanks – Aza24 (talk) 05:01, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Stanza containiing line in question

Le fons Dircé et la fontayne Helie
Dont vous estes le ruissel et le dois,
Ou poëtes mirent leur estudie,
Conveint taire, dont je suy molt destrois.
Las! C'est pour vous qui mort gisiés tous frois
[Qu']ay un dolent depit, faillant replique,
Plourés, arpes et cors saracynois,
La mort Machaut, le noble retorique.
(second strophe) Eustache Deschamps

The fount of Dirce, the fountain of Helie,
Of which you are the stream and the course
In which poets have put their study
Must now be muted, which me much distresses.
Alas! It is for you, who lie cold and dead,
That I have grievous pain, lacking reply,
Weep, harps and Saracenhorns, for
The death of Machaut, the noble rhetorician
English translation by Howard B. Garey

Dircé as you say is almost certainly Dirce, devoted to Dionysus, who caused a fountain to flow where she died, tied to the Farnese Bull.
"la fontayne Helie" is probably Hippocrene, the fountain of poetic inspiration on Mt. Helicon - found through the line "Soubz le ruissel de la fontaine Helie?" in this Balade which is connected with Chaucer. Hope this is of some use. MinorProphet (talk) 06:31, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
The academic Laura Kendrick reads the first line as La fons Ciree et la fonteine Helie. She glosses Helie as "Helicon" and Ciree as "Cirrha". Ciree or Circé ("Circe") seems to be the usual reading of the first name: [6] [7]. --Antiquary (talk) 11:43, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
How (if I might enquire) is Circe connected with fountains and/or poetry? Surely Deschamps is simply comparing Machaut to the fons et origo of lyrical (etc.) poetry, which now runs dry. The harps bring to mind the willows and waters of Babylon, ("where we sat down, and wept") and Saracen horns to rival that of Roland. Or maybe that was later... How much physical evidence is there for Dircé-Cirée? I am ignorant of the paleography. MinorProphet (talk) 13:15, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
It seems that Circé is the manuscript reading and Cirrée a conjectural emendation. I agree that Circé would be hard to explain. I can't find anyone since 1875 giving the first name as Dircé, so I presume it's a textual busted flush. --Antiquary (talk) 13:46, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Although I count myself as one of the world's worst poker players (Hint: not interested in winning OR money), one of my oldest mates still hates playing against me, because every deal I pretend I've got 4 aces, even if it's a pair of twos. Or nothing at all. (Answer: I'd rather be right, which tends to involve further dimensions). MinorProphet (talk) 15:35, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Two Potters - Beatrice Webb & Shena Simon[edit]

Were Beatrice Webb (née Potter) and Shena Simon (née Potter) related, and if so how? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 19:23, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

It's difficult to prove a negative but I doubt if they were, since the ODNB says Shena Simon's father was "a shipowner of Scottish descent", while Beatrice Webb's ancestry is traced by back to John Potter (1691–1751), Yorkshireman. What's more, Beatrice Webb didn't write Squirrel Nutkin. I'm still trying to get over that discovery. --Antiquary (talk) 21:44, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Also, Potter is a very common occupational surname.  --Lambiam 22:40, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Thanks both. DuncanHill (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 00:29, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Very old portraits[edit]

I've been told that some Greek and Roman paintings show men with darker skin and women lighter. Is this clearly "the way it was done" or extrapolation from a too-small number of examples? Was the same done in other cultures, for example Egypt? Temerarius (talk) 20:25, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes! This was done in Greece, Rome, and Egypt, at least - I first noticed it when I visited the preserved brothel in Pompeii, the Lupanar. Mary Ann Eaverly talks about it in her book "Tan Men, Pale Women", in which she contends that it's because men were expected to be active and outdoors while women were expected to be indoors. [1] Luisa Koala (talk) 21:34, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
However, in reality women are usually a little lighter-skinned than men of the same population (our article Human skin color says "Females evolved to have lighter skin so their bodies absorb more calcium"), but this difference has been exaggerated in various artistic conventions. I remember reading about one ancient Egyptian artwork in which the women were shown a little more whitish and the men a little more reddish (as was conventional), and when it came time to depict a eunuch, the artist used an intermediate shade! AnonMoos (talk) 22:30, 3 December 2020 (UTC)


The two Miss Wrinklers[edit]

In Oliver Goldsmith's novel The Vicar of Wakefield (1766), the vicar and his family have fallen on hard times. Discussing potential future marriages of their daughters Sophia and Olivia, the vicar's wife says:

She hoped again to see the day in which we might hold up our heads with the best of them; and concluded, she protested she could see no reason why the two Miss Wrinklers should marry great fortunes, and her children get none. As this last argument was directed to me, I protested I could see no reason for it neither, nor why Mr Simpkins got the ten thousand pound prize in the lottery, and we sate down with a blank.

Regarding, "the two Miss Wrinklers", what does this mean? There is no character in the novel called Wrinkler. Is it a reference to a now obscure item of popular culture? A novel or mythology? Thuresson (talk) 22:18, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

I assume that in the novel it's the name of two young women who married wealthy husbands, but are otherwise not relevant to the plot. Doubt whether the name "Wrinkler" has any great significance -- it's mildly humorous, and perhaps suggests that the two women weren't great beauties... AnonMoos (talk) 22:23, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Most ambitious settler colonialist plans in modern/recent history?[edit]

Which settler colonialist plans were the most ambitious in modern/recent history? So far, I could think of:

There were also some other events, such as the massive population transfers in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin, but AFAIK, these didn't really have a desire to alter the demographics of the recipient territory. So, for instance, when Stalin was deporting Soviet Germans to Siberia and Central Asia, he wasn't actually trying to Germanize these territories but rather to reduce the risk of German subversive activities. Ditto for Stalin deporting the Koryo-saram to Central Asia in 1937-1938, et cetera.

Anyway, which additional examples of this can you think of? Futurist110 (talk) 23:17, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Calling Manifest destiny a "plan" exaggerates its role; it was really a justification for what the U.S. was already doing. But you can look at the ambitions of the "Knights of the Golden Circle", and the British Cape-to-Cairo ambitions which Cecil Rhodes and a few others obessed over... AnonMoos (talk) 23:44, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Some aspects of Manifest Destiny could involve conscious planning, such as the Louisiana Purchase, Adams-Onis Treaty (purchasing Florida), the splitting of Oregon Country down the middle (with the United States of America getting the southern half of Oregon Country) with the 1846 Anglo-American Oregon Treaty, and the Mexican-American War and the resulting Mexican Cession. As for the Knights of the Golden Circle, Yes, that could work if this if these plans actually involved large-scale settler colonialism--presumably of White American slaveowners and their slaves, along with perhaps some yeoman farmers--similar to what previously happened in Mexican Texas in the early 19th century. The Cape-to-Cairo Railway doesn't really work for this since this didn't actually involve any plans for settler colonialism on a huge scale, though. Futurist110 (talk) 00:14, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

December 4[edit]

How did non-Christian peoples feel about being ruled by a Christian monarch?[edit]

How did non-Christian peoples feel about being ruled by a Christian monarch? Bosniaks being ruled by the Hapsburgs, for instance, or Chechens, Ingush, Azeris, and Central Asians being ruled by the Russian Tsars. Or Algerians being ruled by Napoleon III. Or Indians (especially Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs) being ruled by various British monarchs, such as Queen Victoria. Or Muslim Eritreans, Somalis, and Libyans being ruled by the House of Savoy. Futurist110 (talk) 00:52, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

This is an enormous topic and probably too big for this page. Whole books have been written on Indian attitudes to the British alone, likewise the pre-colombian nations living in what is now USA,Canada, Mexico and Peru. Let us say there were wars, civil disobedience, revolutions etc besides long periods of suffering in silence. Spinney Hill (talk) 01:23, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Did many of their objections involve the Christian faith of their colonizer monarch as opposed to other factors such as being colonized by foreign and sometimes/often hostile powers in the first place, though? Futurist110 (talk) 01:47, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
I suspect that practicing Jews in Castile and Aragon in 1492 resented being expelled by the Edict of Expulsion issued by the Catholic Kings more than these monarchs being of a Christian persuasion. Atheist Americans resent that their children are forced to recite daily that their nation is "under God", as well as that their coins and bills express trust in (what they view as) a superstition, so no monarch is needed for resentment of religious impositions. The question is too broad and vague to be answerable. Objections will generally arise out of infringements on what is seen as being one's natural rights – to be allowed to live a peaceful life and provide for one's family, while practicing one's religion. Such infringements by colonizing powers have often had economic motives, sometimes hidden under a religious pretense. But no broad, generally valid pronouncements are possible.  --Lambiam 07:42, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Thank you. Futurist110 (talk) 08:02, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Not always as negative as you might think; take for example the King Edward VII Jewish Memorial Drinking Fountain. Alansplodge (talk) 08:57, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Rasata, Ratahiry and Rasoaveromanana[edit]

Who was Prince Rasata (mentioned on the article Rasoherina) in terms of relation to Rasoherina, Radama II, and the royal line? Also whose the father(s) of the orphaned children of Rasoherina: Ratahiry and Rasoaveromanana? Were they Raharolahy's (Rasoherina's first husband) or illegitimate children of the Rasoherina? What are the lifespan of these three individuals? KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:20, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Additional cases where immigrants from a particular country settling in extremely massive numbers near the borders of this country?[edit]

In this 2009 New York Times Immigration Explorer interactive map, it shows how there are huge concentrations of Mexican immigrants to the United States in California, Arizona, and Texas--all US states that border Mexico--and also how there are huge concentrations of Cuban immigrants to the United States in Florida, especially in southern Florida:

(I checked and an equivalent pattern does not appear to be visible for Canadian immigrants to the United States in recent decades. However, such a pattern did, in fact, exist for Canadian immigrants to the United States in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.)

Anyway, which additional examples/cases have there been where immigrants from a particular country settled in extremely massive numbers near the borders of this country? I mean settled in another country, but literally near the border of their home country. Futurist110 (talk) 07:09, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

While I know that most of the East Asian populations (specifically Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans) in the Russian Empire in 1897 (many, if not most, of whom I'm presuming were either immigrants themselves or the descendants of recent immigrants) settled near the borders of their home/ancestral countries, the total East Asian population in the Russian Empire in 1897 was not very large:
Thus, this probably shouldn't actually count for this. Futurist110 (talk) 07:15, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Haitians then one of the island's dictators massacred anyone who couldn't say parsley with the Spanish rrrrr? And threw babies up catching them with bayonets. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 12:23, 4 December 2020 (UTC)