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June 28[edit]


i have included header of the page using "<?php include 'header.php' ?>" in one php file, i want header not to reload whenever i click on any option on header. how to do it exactly ? (talk) 06:30, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

You must use AJAX and dynamically update the content section of the page. You could use frames - but that's so 90's. If you waste time trying anything but AJAX, everyone will laugh at you. (talk) 19:29, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

How to kill a frozenbird[edit]

I decided to give Ubuntu a chance. "Oh, it's quite stable. You won't want to use Windows again", they told me. However, every now and then a program freezes the system. Sometimes Ctrl + Alt + F3 will take me to a tty and I am able to kill the infringing program, or to kill all with kill -9 -1 and log-in again. Sometimes a terminal can be launched with Ctrl + Alt + t, and xkill be run. Sometimes a compiz --replace or a unity --replace will deal with the problem (I have the impression it's all compiz's and unity's fault, but they might be innocent). Sometimes, though, the system is completely blocked and none of the solutions above will work. That means, no access to any terminal.

Is there a way of always having the possibility to run a command to kill a program or run unity/compiz --replace? Could I for example, make the computer "earmark" some resources just in case the user wants to kill something? Is there something that will always work? Otherwise, I don't see how Ubuntu could be more stable than Windows. It's a pity actually, since I am enjoying some aspects of it (like installing programs from the repository). --Llaanngg (talk) 17:45, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Ensue your video adapter and northbridge has no damage and sufficient cooling. Are You using the recent tested video drivers to prevent Xserver crashes? Is Memtest without error messages? --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 20:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Postcard printing[edit]

Hi, I'd like to know a few things about printing postcards.

  1. What type of paper is used for printing picture postcards?
  2. What type of printer is used? Please specify some examples of models...

Hope someone one will help me out soon...--Joseph 17:46, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

The US Postal Service has specifications about postcards: — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:26, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm getting this service is unavailable error. Meanwhile I'm from India.--Joseph 03:05, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Postcard size is A6 and probably around 170 gsm --TrogWoolley (talk) 10:25, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Which is better for it; matte or glossy paper..? Also, type of printers used...?--Joseph 10:39, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
You would want photo quality paper (another option is to run it through a lamination machine after). There are printers specifically designed to print this size, or you can print a full sized sheet and cut it down. The special printer would make sense only if you are printing larger numbers. In any case, I suggest a cheap 4 ink inkjet printer (3 colors plus black) or a color laser printer, if you are willing to spend the money for that. StuRat (talk) 20:17, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Photo quality paper does have a glossy surface, isn't it.? I don't need that. I want to make postcards that will look like real postcards. Hope you understand what I mean.. --Joseph 02:48, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
You're going to need thicker paper, like card stock. I don't quite follow what you mean about not wanting a glossy surface. Postcards that I've seen all have a glossy surface on the side with the picture. (There are postcards without pictures, but you specifically mentioned "picture postcards" in your Q.) StuRat (talk) 04:11, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I mean I don't need paper (that attracts our fingerprints and dirt) that is usually used for printing photos. Postcards are made of a different type of paper with the front side smooth and backside rough. I don't know what to call that type of paper. That's what I need.--Joseph 05:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Laser printers use toner. Toner is plastic powder molten on the paper. Ink may be affected when getting wet be resolving in the fluid. Not every color laser printer supports photo quality. --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 20:27, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

June 29[edit]

GET and POST[edit]

   function show(e)
       success: function(data)

I'm calling this function onClick on any button and passing value from there to the function, using this function show() the control goes to another file select.php from where the result come back to the current page, everything is working fine, I want to pass all the values from all the buttons or select options or checkboxes which all are already selected, and remove the variable when any option is deselected, ? how to do this ?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 07:58, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Get the value of each element and create either a GET or POST query. Send that with the AJAX request. It will show up in your PHP script in either $_GET or $_POST, depending on how you sent it. (talk) 12:06, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I added a title. StuRat (talk) 17:54, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

How to copy guidelines to another document in Photoshop?[edit]

Hi, I need to get the exact guidelines used in a document on another one in Photoshop. How could I do it..?--Joseph 15:28, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Just to clarify the question, are these "guidelines" just text in one Photoshop file that you want to replicate in another ? If you then modify the original, do you need the "copy" to also automatically update with those changes ? StuRat (talk) 20:12, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
The question does not need clarifying; guides in PhotoShop are lines used to help position objects. This is a rather frequently asked question, but the versions I know about don't provide a direct way of doing it. However, it is possible to find a number of guide-copying scripts that can be downloaded, for example at Looie496 (talk) 21:59, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Oh, those type of guide lines. I thought he meant guidelines. StuRat (talk) 22:05, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

How to send strings over network using TCP/IP protocol in Python 3.4?[edit]

Hello everyone. How would I send strings between python consoles in python 3.4? I think I would use the TCPServer class in the socketserver module. I am running Python 3.4.3 under windows 7. I basically want to run a function on PC A and have it send an argument to PC B and have the console on PC B display the message that it just received. Thanks for your help in advance, —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 19:30, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Edit: I have managed to get a TCP/IP server that allows the client to send a message to the server. However, I can't seem to get the client to send messages after it has connected. Here is my client and server code: Server:

import socket
import threading
import socketserver
ConnectedClients = {}
class ThreadedTCPRequestHandler(socketserver.BaseRequestHandler):
    def handle(self):
        data = str(self.request.recv(1024), 'ascii')
        message = data.split(":")     
        if message[0] == "ConnectClient":
            if not message[1] in ConnectedClients:
                ConnectedClients[message[1]] = self.request.getsockname()
                response = bytes("Added " + str(ConnectedClients[message[1]]) + " To the server.", "ascii")
            cur_thread = threading.current_thread()
            response = bytes("{}: {}".format(, "recived " + data), 'ascii')

class ThreadedTCPServer(socketserver.ThreadingMixIn, socketserver.TCPServer):

if __name__ == "__main__":
    # Port 0 means to select an arbitrary unused port
    HOST, PORT = "localhost", 9999
    server = ThreadedTCPServer((HOST, PORT), ThreadedTCPRequestHandler)
    ip, port = server.server_address

    # Start a thread with the server -- that thread will then start one
    # more thread for each request
    server_thread = threading.Thread(target=server.serve_forever)
    # Exit the server thread when the main thread terminates
    server_thread.daemon = True
    print("Server loop running in thread:",


import socket
import __main__
def client(message, ip = "localhost", port = 9999):
    if not hasattr(__main__, "Connected"):
        setattr(__main__, "Connected", False)
    sock = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
    sock.connect((ip, port))
    data = bytes("ConnectClient" + ":" + "Client1", "ascii")
    if __main__.Connected == False:
        __main__.Connected = True
    sock = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
    sock.connect((ip, port))
    #response = str(sock.recv(1024), 'ascii')
    #print("Received: {}".format(response))
        msgdata = bytes(message, 'ascii')
        response = str(sock.recv(1024), 'ascii')
        #print("Received: {}".format(response))

SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 20:16, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

What problem are you having? Your client code defines a function and never calls it. If you put if __name__ == "__main__": Sendmsg("hello") at the bottom, it should work.
Note that your server will not necessarily get the whole message, even if it's under 1024 bytes, because it might be sent in pieces and recv will return only the first piece. You need to call recv in a loop until you've gotten the whole message. To prevent the server hanging if the message is less than 1024 bytes, you should either send the actual length first (probably in a fixed-length encoding to avoid a chicken-and-egg problem) or else call sock.shutdown(socket.SHUT_WR) after sock.sendall in the client to tell that server that no more data will arrive. -- BenRG (talk) 05:35, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
This does work but not the way I want it to. Its only a 1 way communication. I can only send messages from the client to the server. But I can't do the reverse. Also when either the client or the server gets a message, I want to do something with it, like execute it using the exec function. But I can't do this because the server is being tied up by polling for request. Now I have tried shutting down the server when it gets a message but that didn't work either. So my problem is this, the setup is only 1 way not 2 way, and the server can't do anything because its tied up from the serve_forever function call. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 13:13, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Edit: I have fixed the problem of the server being tied up by handling request asynchronously. But I still don't know how to send the client messages from the server. And here is another question, How would I get a list of connected clients on the server and use that list to allow clients to send other clients messages through the server? —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 13:50, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Edit: I have now fixed the problem of getting a list of connected clients. Now I only have to figure out how to get the server to send messages to clients. Does anyone know how to do this with the code above? —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 18:29, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Any suggestions on how to get the server to send messages to clients? —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 19:23, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

php simplesaml and wamp[edit]

Hi there, I've been trying to install SimpleSaml on wamp:
But when I try to install it, I get 404 error, about welcome_page.php.
After I checked the web it seems I should have added virtualhost to apache.conf.
Unfortunately, whenever I do it, all of the rest of the files on my server isn't available.
1)Does anyone have a solution to the described problem?
2)Does anyone know a good way to implement Saml into php? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Exx8 (talkcontribs) 21:53, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

June 30[edit]

Typing on mobile keyboards with finger held down[edit]

I discovered, totally by accident, a feature on my Windows Phone I hadn't encountered before: you can type long words quicker by, instead of tap-tap-tapping on the virtual keyboard, holding down your finger and sliding it around the keyboard from one key to another, then releasing on the final letter. (A trail follows your finger by way of feedback.) The software then guesses what word you were aiming at. It's genuinely been a while since I've had such a "wow, that's actually pretty clever" moment with technology. It makes it much quicker to type long words and it's impressive how it can distinguish the letters you want from the letters you're just sliding over. Plus it makes you feel like a wizard.

What's the official term for this kind of typing? I tried Googling "hold down finger typing Windows Phone" but got nothing - just a couple of tips-and-tricks listicles which didn't mention it. -- (talk) 08:44, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be an 'official' name for it, but I've heard 'gesture typing' used. The first (?) and best-known gesture keyboard was Swype, so people sometimes use that name to refer to the concept as whole too. —Noiratsi (talk) 08:54, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I've always heard it referred to as "swiping" as opposed to "gestures". The difference is very trivial. A gesture is solely about the shape you draw (or the motion of your hand if it is a camera-based gesture). It doesn't matter where you draw it or how big/small it is. For example, if I sweep from right to left and then wiggle up/down real fast, that tells my browser to go back (but, it is easier to hit the back button). With swiping, you have to get near the keys you are using. Otherwise, the shape you draw will over the wrong keys and produce the wrong word. Of course, you don't have to be perfect. Getting near the keys is usually enough to match the location-based gesture you want. In my opinion, I would place swiping as a subset of gestures. More specifically, I would place it as gestures constrained to a position on the screen. (talk) 15:36, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Inno Setup help[edit]

(See also DLL hell for the general subject). I have to put together an Inno Setup script, which includes one problem DLL. What I need to do is:

  1. If the DLL isn't installed on the system, install version 3.0.5 (the latest).
  2. If version 1.x or 3.0.0 to 3.0.4 is installed on the system, install version 3.0.5.
  3. (And this is the tricky bit) If version 2.x is installed on the system, don't replace it.
  4. If version 3.0.5 or later is installed, prompt the user for overwriting (this is done with the promptifolder flag).

Is this possible, or will I have to put together a set of manual instructions? Tevildo (talk) 18:15, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Note: in item 4, you claim the promptifolder flag will prompt to install version 3.0.5 if the existing file is "version 3.0.5 or later", but after reading the help file*, my understanding is that promptifolder will only prompt if the existing file is higher than version 3.0.5, and do nothing if the existing file is already version 3.0.5. Do you really want to re-install the file if it's already version 3.0.5? If so, this might mean a more complex check. (* Inno Setup Help → Setup Script Sections → [Files] section, find promptifolder and read it, then also go to the bottom Remarks and read them.)
If it's acceptable to do nothing when the existing file is already version 3.0.5, then, as you say, the only tricky thing to check is if the version is 2.x then don't install anything. After reading through the help file, here is an idea to persue. Read the following sections:
  • Check Parameters (Inno Setup Help → Pascal Scripting → Check Parameters)
  • GetVersionNumbers (Inno Setup Help → Pascal Scripting → Support Functions Reference → GetVersionNumbers)
You can use a Check parameter to call a function that you create. In your function, you can check the version number of the existing file, and if it's 2.x, return false and the install file will be skipped. If the existing file is any other version, you can return true and the default version checking and promptifolder flag will take care of the other cases for you. To refer to system folders, you may need to use constants:
  • Constants (Inno Setup Help → Constants)
  • ExpandConstant (Inno Setup Help → Pascal Scripting → Support Functions Reference → ExpandConstant)
--Bavi H (talk) 02:05, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks very much! This is what I've put together, which seems to work. (GetVersionNumbers didn't return meaningful numbers for this DLL, so I've used GetVersionNumbersString instead).

I know it'll fail if we get to version 20 of the DLL, but that can be fixed by my successor. Tevildo (talk) 16:34, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

 :'( Would and sFileVersion[1] = '.' prevent that? --Bavi H (talk) 00:49, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
It would. That's three weeks of work we've taken away from a contractor. ;) Tevildo (talk) 17:56, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Web page gotchas[edit]

I suspect that some web pages intentionally do the following:

1) Place an innocent button where it renders immediately, say "Like this".

2) Place an evil button such that it will render in the same spot, a second later. For example, "Donate all the funds in my account to ...".

3) They then get people who try to click on #1 but accidentally hit #2.

Has anyone admitted to designing web pages like this intentionally ? StuRat (talk) 19:13, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia regularly has a banner that loads with a slight delay so when you try to click on the search button at the top of the page, it quickly places the DONATE button where the search box used to be. Is it intentional? (talk) 19:30, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
No. Web browsers often don't know how large an element is going to be until they have downloaded it. It's very common to see pages rearrange themselves as the elements are filled in. This is a result of browsers being programmed to show you something as soon as possible, rather than leaving the page blank until all its contents have been downloaded. Looie496 (talk) 19:58, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I think it would be more practical just to have the "Like" button execute the "Donate" routine, since the button's text can say anything at all. For your original question, I have read about web pages that do the opposite of what you suggested: they hide the "Like" button behind an innocuous web object, so that when you click to (say) go to the next page, you also register as "Liking" the site.OldTimeNESter (talk) 12:24, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

July 1[edit]

Rapidminer XPath query help[edit]

I am trying to extract tabular information from pages on a website. I am using rapidminer for this. I have: - page links stored in an excel file (for the code snippet below have just used a single page) - Rapidminer process accesses these links one at a time and extracts the tabular data

The problem is that this table can have n number of rows (variable across table son pages). The process I have created can get the table data rows but how can I modify it to iterate over n number of table rows dynamically.

The XML for the Rapidminer process is below:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="no"?> <process version="6.4.000">

 <operator activated="true" class="process" compatibility="6.4.000" expanded="true" name="Process">
   <process expanded="true">
     <operator activated="true" class="text:create_document" compatibility="6.4.001" expanded="true" height="60" name="Create Document" width="90" x="45" y="75">
       <parameter key="text" value=""/>
       <parameter key="add label" value="true"/>
       <parameter key="label_type" value="text"/>
       <parameter key="label_value" value="_link"/>
     <operator activated="true" class="text:documents_to_data" compatibility="6.4.001" expanded="true" height="76" name="Documents to Data" width="90" x="179" y="75">
       <parameter key="text_attribute" value="Link"/>
       <parameter key="add_meta_information" value="false"/>
     <operator activated="true" class="web:retrieve_webpages" compatibility="5.3.002" expanded="true" height="60" name="Get Pages" width="90" x="45" y="210">
       <parameter key="link_attribute" value="Link"/>
       <parameter key="page_attribute" value="myPage"/>
       <parameter key="random_user_agent" value="true"/>
     <operator activated="true" class="text:data_to_documents" compatibility="6.4.001" expanded="true" height="60" name="Data to Documents" width="90" x="179" y="210">
       <parameter key="select_attributes_and_weights" value="true"/>
       <list key="specify_weights">
         <parameter key="myPage" value="1.0"/>
     <operator activated="true" class="text:process_documents" compatibility="6.4.001" expanded="true" height="94" name="Process Documents" width="90" x="313" y="210">
       <parameter key="create_word_vector" value="false"/>
       <parameter key="keep_text" value="true"/>
       <process expanded="true">
         <operator activated="true" class="multiply" compatibility="6.4.000" expanded="true" height="76" name="Multiply" width="90" x="45" y="75"/>
         <operator activated="false" class="loop" compatibility="6.4.000" expanded="true" height="76" name="Loop" width="90" x="246" y="210">
           <parameter key="set_iteration_macro" value="true"/>
           <parameter key="macro_name" value="itr"/>
           <parameter key="iterations" value="20"/>
           <process expanded="true">
             <operator activated="true" class="text:extract_information" compatibility="6.4.001" expanded="true" height="60" name="Extract Information (2)" width="90" x="179" y="75">
               <parameter key="query_type" value="XPath"/>
               <list key="string_machting_queries"/>
               <list key="regular_expression_queries"/>
               <list key="regular_region_queries"/>
               <list key="xpath_queries">
                 <parameter key="Rw" value="//*[@id='body_body_tbody']/h:tr[${itr}]/h:td/h:strong/text()"/>
               <list key="namespaces"/>
               <list key="index_queries"/>
               <list key="jsonpath_queries"/>
             <connect from_port="input 1" to_op="Extract Information (2)" to_port="document"/>
             <connect from_op="Extract Information (2)" from_port="document" to_port="output 1"/>
             <portSpacing port="source_input 1" spacing="0"/>
             <portSpacing port="source_input 2" spacing="0"/>
             <portSpacing port="sink_output 1" spacing="0"/>
             <portSpacing port="sink_output 2" spacing="0"/>
         <operator activated="true" class="text:extract_information" compatibility="6.4.001" expanded="true" height="60" name="Extract Information" width="90" x="246" y="75">
           <parameter key="query_type" value="XPath"/>
           <list key="string_machting_queries"/>
           <list key="regular_expression_queries"/>
           <list key="regular_region_queries"/>
           <list key="xpath_queries">
             <parameter key="Hierarchy" value="//*[@id='form1']/h:div[4]/h:div[2]/h:p[@class='breadcrumb']/text()"/>
             <parameter key="Hierarchy_L1" value="//*[@id='form1']/h:div[4]/h:div[2]/h:h2/text()"/>
             <parameter key="Tbl_Rw_Angus" value="//*[@id='body_body_tbody']/h:tr[1]/h:td/h:strong/text()"/>
           <list key="namespaces"/>
           <list key="index_queries"/>
           <list key="jsonpath_queries"/>
         <connect from_port="document" to_op="Multiply" to_port="input"/>
         <connect from_op="Multiply" from_port="output 1" to_op="Extract Information" to_port="document"/>
         <connect from_op="Extract Information" from_port="document" to_port="document 1"/>
         <portSpacing port="source_document" spacing="0"/>
         <portSpacing port="sink_document 1" spacing="0"/>
         <portSpacing port="sink_document 2" spacing="0"/>
     <connect from_op="Create Document" from_port="output" to_op="Documents to Data" to_port="documents 1"/>
     <connect from_op="Documents to Data" from_port="example set" to_op="Get Pages" to_port="Example Set"/>
     <connect from_op="Get Pages" from_port="Example Set" to_op="Data to Documents" to_port="example set"/>
     <connect from_op="Data to Documents" from_port="documents" to_op="Process Documents" to_port="documents 1"/>
     <connect from_op="Process Documents" from_port="example set" to_port="result 1"/>
     <portSpacing port="source_input 1" spacing="0"/>
     <portSpacing port="sink_result 1" spacing="0"/>
     <portSpacing port="sink_result 2" spacing="0"/>


The ideal output would be like:

The PUB® Steak Burger Products Angus 215-960 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Angus Beef Chuck Steak Burger 6 28 10.50
The PUB® Steak Burger Products Angus 215-940 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Angus Beef Chuck Steak Burger 4 40 10
The PUB® Steak Burger Products Angus 215-930 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Angus Beef Chuck Steak Burger 3 56 10.50
The PUB® Steak Burger Products Choice 15-960 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Angus Beef Chuck Steak Burger 6 27 10.13
The PUB® Steak Burger Products Choice 15-940 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Angus Beef Chuck Steak Burger 4 40 10
The PUB® Steak Burger Products Choice 15-930 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Angus Beef Chuck Steak Burger 3 53 9.94
This is a case where I'd use 'lynx -dump' to pull the whole page in a preformatted way. Hitting that particular page, returns:
  Item # Product Name Portion Size (oz.) Portions Per Case Case Weight(lb.)
  [192]215-960 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Angus Beef Chuck Steak Burger 6.000000 28 10.50
  [193]215-940 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Angus Beef Chuck Steak Burger 4.000000 40 10.00
  [194]215-930 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Angus Beef Chuck Steak Burger 3.000000 56 10.50
  [195]15-960 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Beef Chuck Steak Burger 6.000000 27 10.13
  [196]15-940 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Beef Chuck Steak Burger 4.000000 40 10.00
  [197]15-930 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Beef Chuck Steak Burger 3.000000 53 9.94
  [198]22801-761 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Beef Chuck Steak Burger 4.000000 40 10.00
  [199]22800-761 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Beef Chuck Steak Burger 3.000000 56 10.50
  [200]15-260 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger 6.000000 27 10.12
  [201]15-250 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger 5.000000 32 10.00
  [202]15-250-40 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger 5.000000 128 40.00
  [203]15-245 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger 4.500000 36 10.12
  [204]15-240 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger 4.000000 40 10.00
  [205]15-230 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger 3.000000 53 9.94
  [206]15-330-20 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger 3.000000 81 15.19
  [207]15-230-2 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger with Foil Bags 3.000000 160 30.00
  [208]15-275 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger 2.750000 58 9.96
  [209]15-224 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger 2.400000 68 10.20
  [210]10712 Flamebroiled Mini Beef Steak Burger with Bun 2.200000 72 9.90
  [211]22985-330 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger, Strip Steak Shape CN 3.000000 56 10.50
  [212]15-338-9 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger CN 3.800000 67 15.91
  [213]15-330-09 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger CN 3.000000 81 15.19
  [214]3-15-327-09 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger CN 2.700000 175 29.53
  [215]15-327-09 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger CN 2.700000 88 14.85
  [216]3-15-324-09 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger CN 2.400000 200 30.00
  [217]15-324-09 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger CN 2.400000 90 13.50
  [218]15-320-09 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger CN 2.010000 114 14.32
  [219]15-312-9 Flamebroiled Mini Beef Steak Burger CN 1.200000 135 10.12
  Smart Picks™ Beef Steak Burgers
  [220]68050 Smart Picks™ Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger CN 2.000000 170 21.25
  [221]68001 Smart Picks™ Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger CN 1.600000 210 21.00
As you can see, the data is formatted reasonably nice. It wouldn't be hard to strip off the last three numbers of each line and the item number from the beginning. The [###] fields are symbols for the links listed at the bottom of the dump (which I did not show). (talk) 12:55, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

The problem here is that I need to accomplish this task using Rapidminer only - how can it be doe using Rapidminer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 04:23, 3 July 2015 (UTC)


Is there any evidence that nfc is likely to be more successful than previous short range contactless technology such as rfid and Bluetooth? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 05:59, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

It is mainly about range. If you want communication to have a very short range, NFC is better. If you want communication to have a medium range, Bluetooth is better. If you want to have a large range, WiFi is better. If you want to reach out to anywhere in the world, you pass it off to the cell tower. (talk) 12:35, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
See Near field communication for our article. Tevildo (talk) 17:57, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

How to start windows in safe mode, then restart other services[edit]

Hi, I have a problem with my Vista computer from c2010, taking forever (~40 mins) to boot, giving me the grey screen of death at the start. So I start in safe mode, and that's fine, but there's no internet and no sound. Presumably no video either. Can I start windows in safe mode, *then* load up all the other things, one at a time, as needed? I only need a few things, like I say, sound, video, internet. Networking per se is present, and it recognises the ethernet connection, but won't let me on the web, won't connect to my ISP, etc. It just says, "Can't create this connection." IBE (talk) 18:42, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

For clarity, are you running safe mode with networking, or safe mode? Nil Einne (talk) 19:03, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure I did it with networking - that was what I ticked intentionally, so unless I'm doing something wrong, it's with networking. IBE (talk) 19:41, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I do not think you can "load" missing services. In a safe mode you can only save you data to an external drive then reset your laptop to its original state. Ruslik_Zero 20:12, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
The top two results in this Google search seem relevant, BUT if you are not completely comfortable with making registry edits, I would not go any further. (for the record, I am seeing a result for and one for --LarryMac | Talk 20:55, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
How hard can it be? ;) well, I'm going to reinstall windows if I can't fix it, so it doesn't matter much, thanks I'll give it a try. IBE (talk) 16:49, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

July 2[edit]

What Web Browser is this?[edit]

My hotel has a web browser I've never seen before. Its logo is a white S within a blue globe circle. Googling "web browser s logo" brings up one site with the logo, called, but I can't click it because the hotel kiosk forbids me from visiting that site.

Im still at the hotel, so I cant click on a lot of things. What browser si this? (talk) 18:01, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Assuming we both found the same image (a picture of the Earth with a large white S), this is an icon for IronSource's "Spearmint" browser (for Google Android). Tevildo (talk) 18:19, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Android? How odd. I wonder why a hotel desktop would have an android browser? Thanks! (talk) 18:41, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Judging by this list, SlimBrowser might be what you're looking at - it runs under Windows and appears able to be locked down pretty tight. WegianWarrior (talk) 18:51, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Interesting. The Spearmint logo is _very_ similar (the main difference being that the "S" is white rather than cream, and the map is dark blue rather than white). We may have uncovered nefariousness. I agree that SlimBrowser is a more likely candidate for the OP's hotel system. Tevildo (talk) 19:54, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

What are the limitations of cygwin?[edit]

If you use the linux command line specially for tools like grep, sed, awk and similar other, mainly for the one-liners, what are the limitations of windows + cygwin comparing to a full-linux installation? --Yppieyei (talk) 20:56, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Cygwin is a windows program. It is NOT a linux program. The underlining OS is windows. (talk) 06:01, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
The question is not whether they are different, but whether they behave differently.
I use cygwin on my W7 box at work and I wouldn't be without it. I'm not trying to start a flame war, but I find the W7 search clumsy in syntax but more importantly unreliable, so I use grep in cygwin, which never fails. I also use the built in Perl and Perl/TK - we can't afford ActivePerl and my previous experience with Strawberry Perl hasn't been the best. Finally as a 25+ year Vi user, old habits die hard and this what I use for web development (my real job). --TrogWoolley (talk) 09:08, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
So, there is nothing you could do in Vi under Linux, but cannot do it in Vi using cygwin? There are not surprises, no packages that cannot be installed, or which last version cannot be installed, things that don't work, or things that only work with some hack? --Yppieyei (talk) 16:27, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
It depends on your definition of "things that don't work". For example, if a program running on Linux work just fine with POSIX-style file permissions on an Ext2 partition but fails with Windows-style file permissions on an NTFS partition, is that a "thing that doesn't work"? Most people would say no. How about the same program ported to Windows having the same limitations? Most people would call that a "thing that doesn't work". Cygwin actually does a lot better than that -- see and -- but some things just don't map properly and need workarounds. Try creating files named com1, lpt1, or aux (no file extension) in Windows. Now try it in Linux. Is that a "thing that doesn't work"?
Cygwin is pretty good at handling these sort of things, but it isn't perfect. I have had a couple of people recommend this page: [ ] but have not tried it myself. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:57, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

July 3[edit]


June 29[edit]

Identify a submarine[edit]

This photo of a submarine was found among a collection of documents and photos related to a South African warship, HMSAS Transvaal's trip to Australia in 1951. Unfortunately there is no other information about the encounter with the submarine, though we suspect it was probably Australian. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 06:39, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

The silhouette is very similar to a British T-class submarine, a number of which operated from Australia during and after the war. WegianWarrior (talk) 07:00, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
A quick bit of research on Wikipedia suggests the Royal Australian Navy had no submarines in 1951. See Royal Australian Navy Submarine Service#1945 to present. (In fact, the RAN had no submarine from April 1931 when HMAS Otway (1927) and HMAS Oxley (1927) were returned to the RN, until HMAS Oxley (S57) et al were commissioned in the late 1960s.) Dolphin (t) 07:07, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks this info narrows down the research task considerably: Which Royal Navy T-class subs were in Australian waters during January 1951. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:28, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
A March 1951 newspaper report of a Commonwealth naval exercise in Australian waters, in which two unnamed British submarines "acted as hares" for the combined surface fleet; Modern Submarine Main Danger. It might be difficult to pinpoint as the RN maintained a whole submarine flotilla at Singapore during the 1950s and early 1960s. Alansplodge (talk) 10:10, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
It was called "Operation Convex" according to The West Australian, 12 March 1951: "Big Naval Exercise". Alansplodge (talk) 12:05, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Another photo of the sub has turned up, in Sydney Harbour, date not known but definitely early 1951. If anyone is interested, a forum discussion about the HMSAS Transvaal documents and photos is at -- Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:45, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Just found that the Royal Navy's 4th Submarine Flotilla was based at HMAS Penguin in Sydney, the last British submarine leaving in 1969. According to The Royal Navy 4th Submarine Squadron Based in Sydney, AUSTRALIA, those based there in 1951 were: HMS Telemachus (P321), HMS Thorough (P324) and HMS Taciturn (P314). Alansplodge (talk) 12:25, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
But we can rule out HMS Taciturn, as she had been modernised in 1948 to look like this. Alansplodge (talk) 18:07, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks all I think the three names are as close as we're ever going to get unless another photo showing a hull number or other distinctive marking turns up. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 18:06, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

What is relation of the bacterium "Helicobacter pylori" to the pylorus?[edit]

I don't find the answer In the article Helicobacter pylori "The bacterium was initially named Campylobacter pyloridis, then renamed C. pylori (pylori being the genitive of pylorus, the circular opening leading from the stomach into the duodenum, from the Ancient Greek word πυλωρός, which means gatekeeper.[110]). When 16S ribosomal RNA gene sequencing and other research showed in 1989 that the bacterium did not belong in the genus Campylobacter, it was placed in its own genus, Helicobacter from the ancient Greek hělix/έλιξ "spiral" or "coil".[110]" (talk) 14:34, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Found in the stomach, named for a part of the stomach? DMacks (talk) 17:07, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Well, the article states that it is linked to duodenal cancers, leading to me to assume it's found in the duodenum as well as the stomach. It seems entirely reasonable that it was named pyloridis/ pylori simply be because of where it was first found, around the bottom of the stomach, top of the duodenum, in particular the pylorus. But that's just my guess' at present.
Now, for a reference that supports the claim, I got to this article [1] by searching for /pyloridis new/. That led me to the original describing article UNIDENTIFIED CURVED BACILLI IN THE STOMACH OF PATIENTS WITH GASTRITIS AND PEPTIC ULCERATION paywalled here [2] (you might be able to find an accessible copy by searching the title). In it, Marshall says
- emphasis mine. So I'd say that we've now confirmed that it is named after where it is commonly found. If you want to thank me, you could do so by editing the H. pylori article to cite that ref for the claim that Marshall first detected it in the second sentence, and possibly later for a new sentence explaining the name :) SemanticMantis (talk) 17:08, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Home-made air conditioner[edit]

The air-con projects I have seen so far are build based on ice (from the freezer) in some isolating box and blowing a fan on it.

Is there a home-made air-con project that would not work with the principle above? Something based on evaporating water could also work, couldn't it?--YX-1000A (talk) 17:01, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, evaporative cooling is our general article, the devices are commonly called swamp coolers in parts of the USA, though many names are used. These get a lot of use in greenhouses, where you might not mind exchanging some heat for humidity. I just recently saw a decent installation of one in an orchid house near Corpus_Christi,_Texas. Quite cooling indeed, even in a humid environment, despite reports that the maker of said cooler warned that it might not work well at that ambient heat and humidity. Might not be very suitable for in-home use in very humid climates though. Here's a homemade version I found on youtube [3]. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:21, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
An even simpler method is to drape a damp towel over a box fan (being sure to leave enough air flow to not overload the fan). You will need to rewet the towel often, though. You can toss it in the washing machine periodically with some bleach to avoid mildew. StuRat (talk) 17:51, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Another way to make a homemade air conditioner would be to get a long hose (ideally thin-walled), connect to the faucet, loop the hose around the room, have it drain someplace safe, and turn the water on. This relies on underground water pipes supplying cooler water than the air temperature. Advantages are the simplicity and no electricity use. However, it is extremely wasteful of water, so would only make economic sense if you drain the water someplace you can use it anyway, like to irrigate a garden/crops, fill a bathtub (that would only take a few minutes, though), etc.
An alternate version could use a water pump and rain barrels (although the pump could be omitted if the rain barrels are elevated enough above the area you want to cool). Here it would only work early in the day, when the rain barrel water is still cool from night, but that water is free, so you don't have to worry about wasting it (although irrigating a garden or crops with it still makes sense). Both variations would likely only work to cool a small area, unless you are a farmer, and have need for massive amounts of water to irrigate your crops anyway, in which case the first method might cool the entire house (but a farmer is more likely pumping water out of a stream or underground reservoir, so there would be some increased electrical use to pump it through the house, too). StuRat (talk) 17:37, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Swamp coolers are not very effective when evaporation is limited due to humidity (it just makes the room feel like a swamp by adding moisture to the air). The hose method is used in places where it is easy to cool water - such as Hawaii. Just run the hose extremely deep into the ocean to cool the water down and then loop it back up to the house. The actual system there is more complicated - but the principle is to send the house's heat into the ocean. Another method, not mentioned, is simply moving the air. If it is hotter at the top of a room than it is outside, automate a system of trapping the hot air at the ceiling and sending in slightly less warm air from outside - a rather poor version of a heat pump. Overall, none of those works as well as running coolant through a radiator and blowing air past it. Doing so also gives you the benefit of dehumidifying the air because condensation will collect on the radiator and drip down. (talk) 17:47, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
And I suppose I should mention the method I actually use to cool my house. Put box fans (not those silly, tiny, underpowered twin "window fans" shown at the top of that article, but rather the large, single fan, shown below it) in windows, to blow hot air out and cool air in at night. Put all the fans blowing in at the lower floor and out on the upper floor to take advantage of the tendency of hot air to rise (or put fans pointing in on one side of the house and out on the other, for a single story home). Try to seal the area around each fan as well as possible to prevent local recirculation (air going the wrong way around the fan). I've cut a circular "mask" out of plastic sheeting for each fan, custom fit to each window opening, to do this. Don't leave any other windows open without fans. Can cool the house quickly when it is cool and dry at night and hot during the day. However, if it's humid out, say over 60°F dew point, the humidity getting inside makes it not practical. Also, you will have to make the house uncomfortably cold by morning to keep it cool all day, so wear a sweater to bed, and even then it's only good to keep the house maybe 10°F cooler than the outside temp. And if you leave the fans on too long in the morning you are paying to blow warm air into the house. Also, can't use this method when there's a risk of rain or bad fumes (like from cars in the driveway) that may be blown inside, or security issues with open windows. Still, with all these caveats, I can cool my house much faster than with A/C, under ideal conditions. Note that I mean the air is cooled quickly, but to cool the walls, floors, ceiling, furniture, etc., takes hours. If you don't cool those down, then the air temp quickly rebounds as soon as you turn the fans off.
One other caution is to always maintain positive pressure in the house, by having more fans blowing in than out. This means you turn the fans blowing in, on first, and off last. If you don't do this and create a negative pressure, it may suck exhaust (water heater, etc.) down chimneys, and you don't want that. StuRat (talk) 18:13, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Number of bones and joints in human body[edit]

Ironically, Google search engine shows 360 joints according to non-reliable sources if you just type the following "number of joints in human body". However I'm really surprised why such very old question doesn't get interest of the scientific community to answer. I searched some other sites (like this), found that bones are about 206 in an adult human and about 250-350 joints. I assume that if a joint is linking two (or more bones unless there are two or more consecutive joints) and thus total number of joints should be always less than or equal total number of bones which should limit that of human body to 206 joint. Do you have an explanation?--Almuhammedi (talk) 21:18, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

A quick search on Google led me to Talk:Joint, where there are several links that try to explain this seeming contradiction in logic. Maybe it depends how one defines a "joint". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:58, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Please remember that some bones don't have precisely one or two joints; some bones have several suture-type joints, for example. Nyttend (talk) 12:16, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Surprisingly, this is a question about Islam, not science. See [4] for example. --Dweller (talk) 12:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

June 30[edit]

How is it that one mole of any gas occupies 22.4 l?[edit]

How is it that one mole of any gas occupies 22.4 l at STP? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 03:26, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Ideal gas law DTLHS (talk) 03:32, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
You mean V = NRT/P will always be constant = 22.4 l? I will have to do the numerical. Thanks Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:32, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
OK, V = (1 x 8.314 x 273)/101325 = 0.0224 cu m, or 22.4 l, and also the since equation has only one intrinsic property which is set to 1, N = 1, whatever value we get, it will be constant for all gases. Still, physically I still don't get the "how"? See we have one mole being made up of 6.022 x 10^23 atoms/ molecules of carbon di oxide, oxygen, or whatever gas, what is I see is one atom the size of a foot ball, the other a golf ball, another a table tennis ball, at STP, how do these equal number of different sized balls fit in one size 22.4 L? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 05:00, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't know the answer but I imagine that the size of the molecules is a very small percentage of the size of the distance between them in the gas. ----Seans Potato Business 12:21, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Ask yourself, how much of the 22.4 L is actually occupied by gas molecules, and how much is occupied by the empty space between gas molecules? The actual size of the molecules doesn't matter because most of the volume is actually empty space. Dragons flight (talk) 06:27, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Well, it matters some. It's the b parameter of the van der Waals equation. --Trovatore (talk) 06:33, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Indeed. The OP's surprise that all gases occupy the "exact same" volume might be tempered when we explain that all gases are not ideal. For most gases - and in particular, near standard temperature and pressure conditions - the behavior is nearly ideal. Small non-idealities are introduced when we use other equations to enhance the ideal gas equation; and the perfect volumetric equivalence for all species of gas goes away. Nimur (talk) 12:43, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Even more generally: Equation_of_state#Cubic_equations_of_state. Thermodynamics! shoy (reactions) 12:48, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
The ideal gas law can be derived from the kinetic theory of gases. As Dragons flight says, one of the assumptions of simple kinetic theory is that the size of each molecule is very much smaller than the average distance between molecules. Another assumption is that the average kinetic energy per molecule is proportional to the temperature of the gas. So if we increase the mass of each molecule by a factor of 4, but keep the temperature and volume the same, the average kinetic energy decreases by a factor of 4. And hence the average speed of each molecule is halved. Now that molecules are travelling at half of the original speed but with four times the original mass, each collision with the walls of the container imparts an average impulse (change in momentum) that is twice the original average impulse. But collisions happen only half as often as they did before because the molecules are travelling half as fast. So the pressure on the container walls (average force per unit area, which is average impulse per unit time per unit area) is unchanged - the increased impulse in each collision is balanced out by the smaller number of collisions per second. This is a "hand waving" explanation - for a more rigorous derivation, see our kinetic theory article . Gandalf61 (talk) 11:17, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
  • I need to digest the information provided, many thanks. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 02:39, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
    • Take your time -- it's not simple. The easiest thing is just to assume that the gas is "ideal", which essentially means that molecules are points and that there are no inter-molecular attractions. Once you've gotten your head wrapped around the properties of ideal gases, you can get into situations that depart from the ideal gas behavior (referred to as "real" gases). These mostly have to do with low temperatures and/or high pressures. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:51, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
      • The answers above are excellent, but I might add that the ideal gas law is a model, an approximation; it works well in many of the situations we deal with frequently (ie RTP) but it gets further and further from reality when its assumptions begin to break down. One such breakdown is at very high pressure, where molecule size becomes relevant. Another is at low temperature, when intermolecular interactions become significant. And so forth. Vanamonde93 (talk) 01:35, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Bose-Einstein condensates[edit]

Bose–Einstein condensation at 400, 200, and 50 nanokelvins. The peaks show that as the temperature goes down, more and more atoms "condense" to the same energy level.

This image appears at Bose–Einstein condensation (network theory) with the same caption. It confuses me: is left 400 and right 50 or vice versa? Saying "400, 200, and 50" sounds like they're going left to right, but it looks like more and more atoms "condense" to the same energy level as you go from right to left, i.e. it's 50, 200, and 400. Nyttend (talk) 12:30, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

It confuses me too! There are no axis labels, and the image description page and the articles do not directly explain what is being plotted. I could make assumptions that we're looking at a two-dimensional histogram, but I'm not sure if the horizontal axes represent position, phase-space, or something else. I'm not sure if the vertical axis represents particle count, particle energy, or something else. I'm even less certain what the three instances of the graphs represent, but this is the only item directly described in the caption (apparently the parameter that varies between each graph is temperature).
The graph was contributed by a Wikipedia editor nearly ten years ago, but it is not referenced from a publication. If we can find a suitable replacement, or a suitable reference to explain it, we should improve or replace the image. You could try contacting the image uploader via their talk page. Nimur (talk) 12:39, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I remember reading a while back that the graph represents the number of atoms present in an energy level. From what I remember, the ‘higher’ the graph the more atoms are present at that energy level. The flat nature of the graph on the left indicates that the atoms are all relatively evenly distributed among energy levels (which is expected in normal conditions). The graph on the right (specifically the peak) indicates an extremely high number of atoms concentrated in a specific energy level. (talk) 13:15, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
...which corresponds to the lowest temperature, as the caption explains. Lowest temperature is on the right-hand side. (talk) 13:54, 30 June 2015 (UTC)Nightvid
Yes, that description is consistent with that given here [5], it claims that that the images are of a velocity distribution, though it does not give explicit temperatures, nor the axis labels. A key point is that the right image is coolest. The right image has almost all peak, with very little variance around it. The center image has a peak, but also some variance. The left image has almost no peak, and reflects the "normal" variation of velocity. The page linked above is the lab web page of Prof.Dr. S.O. Demokritov, and I'm willing to call that reliable enough for these purposes. As a stop-gap until better images or sourcing can be found, I've slightly modified the caption. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:00, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes. The key is the red. The more red, the more condensate. The peaks are an illusion since the temperature is lower on the right. They aren't larger on the right but the energy difference as a percentage is larger for the peak. Higher Q factor to borrow from a different field. --DHeyward (talk) 06:28, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Fate of coronary artery plaques after rupture[edit]

When someone has a heart attack due to a ruptured plaque in a coronary artery, and then gets clot-busting drugs in the emergency room, why doesn't the clot re-form after the drug wears off? Isn't the rupture still there? (talk) 14:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC)Nightvid

The "clot-busting drugs" you refer to are more commonly referred to as "blood-thinners." It is dangerous to stop taking a blood thinner at any time, not just after heart attack treatment. A study on Warfarin and Xarelto at Duke University in 2012 found that heart attack/stroke risk increased rapidly when ceasing blood thinner use. Further studies have both validated and partially contradicted that study. The contradictions have to do with further refinement of the population based on other treatments, history of heart attack/stroke, and end-results that are similar, such as pulmonary embolism or deep-vein thrombosis. For most patients, the blood thinner dissolves the plaque and allows for normal clearance in the urine. There are some, a vast minority, who become threatened. Therefore, new procedures are constantly being developed to break down and capture the plaque rather than release it into the heart or the rest of the blood stream. It would be best, of course, if cardiovascular disease was stopped before it began. As it is, most hypertension and cardiovascular specialists are simply trying to improve a very bad situation. (talk) 15:48, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm talking about the drugs used only for the acute MI, such as Tissue Plasminogen Activator, which are discontinued. If the different drugs such as thinners are enough to prevent a new clot, would they also have been enough to prevent the first one, if they had been taken early enough? (talk) 01:46, 1 July 2015 (UTC)Nightvid

What do inspectors of nuclear facilities search for?[edit]

When foreigner inspectors of nuclear facilities visit a country, how can they know whether a bomb isn't hidden somewhere else? Or that more enriched plutonium is not hidden somewhere else? Atomic bombs don't have actually a huge volume that would be tricky to hide. --Bickeyboard (talk) 17:02, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

They look for blatant evidence of wrongdoing. The way it has worked in the past, primarily with Iraq and then Iran, they schedule a specific time to visit a specific installation. The date is set well enough into the future to ensure that there will be nothing questionable at the facility. Then, the inspectors do a walk-through. During the Iraq inspections, there was a lot more public information about the cleanup before inspections, including surveillance photos showing trucks moving "stuff" from the inspection facility to a non-inspection facility. With Iran, there is far less information, but the inspections are still scheduled well in advance and limited to specific installations. (talk) 17:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
That's exactly the problem. How can they find anything this way? --Bickeyboard (talk) 17:31, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Basically, they don't. It's a charade for political purposes mainly. The only concrete benefit to the inspector is that it prevents some wrongdoing. If the inspected facility knows they are going to be inspected, they will avoid doing what they are not supposed to do (at least temporarily). It is a way of getting minimal compliance when there would otherwise be zero compliance. Gnome de plume (talk) 17:35, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
While some of the responses above are quite cynical, they are also un-sourced commentary. Perhaps you would like to read about the IAEA's work, including work related to the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, Monitoring in Iran, and Monitoring in the DPRK. Treaty compliance, inspection, and external auditing is not easy, but it's also not a "charade." Nimur (talk) 17:54, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
It's not that easy or bad. To separate out U235 you need large and complex machinery. Similarly for Plutonium. And these materials are relatively carefully accounted for, so it's not that easy to make some of it vanish. Checking the books is part of the inspection. Talking to the personell is part of the inspection. It is not very easy to keep a secret when a large number of people are necessarily involved in it. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:43, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
These inspections are of the nuclear power stations (while in Iraq, the inspections included buildings accused of housing chemical weapons). It is well-known where Iran built their enrichment facility and it is not included in inspections. (talk) 17:54, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Do you have a source for this information? If not, you should reconsider whether your comment merits inclusion in this encyclopedia's reference desk. First, to which inspectors do you refer? Secondly, to whom are these speculative facts well-known? Thirdly, which reliable source reported that the inspectors intentionally avoided such facilities? If you cannot directly attribute these allegations to anybody, you might need to read our guidelines on unsupported attributions and reliable sources. Nimur (talk) 17:58, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
The IAEA, already linked above, does not inspect the enrichment facility itself. They ask Iran to report on it, but never actually set foot in the facility. Further, it is well-known where the facilities are. You can get a list on Wikipedia: Nuclear facilities in Iran. How is this controversial? To be more correct... I must point out that an enrichment plant was built and shown to inspectors in 2009. It was not operational at the time and access has not been documented with the IAEA since. I am happy to be corrected with documentation tha the IAEA *has* been in an operational enrichment facility. Your complaint is that you just disagree. (talk) 18:05, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Implementation of the NPT Safeguards Agreement and relevant provisions of Security Council resolutions in the Islamic Republic of Iran, (29 May, 2015). The IAEA asserts that it has independently verified many facts. It asserts that several technical visits were arranged, conforming to the "Framework for Cooperation," including technical visits to centrifuge facilities and the Lashkar Ab’ad Laser Centre. The Agency asserts (in this and other reports) that it has physical access to numerous facilities in Iran: "Iran has continued to provide the Agency with managed access to centrifuge assembly workshops, centrifuge rotor production workshops and storage facilities." (Page 1 of the report). Non-proliferation inspection, in particular when conducted under the auspices of the United Nations and the IAEA, does not mean "unrestricted access to anything and everything in the nation;" there are rules about what is covered. For starters, read IAEA Safeguards to learn what they inspect, why they inspect it, and under what international legal frameworks these inspections occur. Here is a list of locations relevant to the implementation of safeguards in Iran. If you think something is missing, perhaps you should make a convincing case to the Commission.
IAEA's Director General stakes his professional reputation, and his funding, on the veracity of such public documentation. I would not be surprised if there have been many more confidential internal findings, technical visits, and reports; but these are the reports that are available to the casual, uncredentialed, unprivileged internet reader at no cost. Nimur (talk) 19:32, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
We are apparently seeing different information in the same document. I see "managed visits" to facilities to produce and store centrifuge parts. Those facilities are not the enrichment plants - those are just part factories and warehouses. This is important because the number of parts produced is directly related to the number of centrifuges in operation. If there are no hidden parts being used, the IAEA can make an assumption about the number of centrifuges in use and detect more being used. As for enrichment operations, it is stated that environmental samples are taken to determine the operations. What does that mean? I take it to mean samples of the environment: air, water, and soil. There are also many instances where it is stated that the claims being made are based solely on statements from Iran. I want to make it clear that it is obvious that the IAEA is inspecting Iran to the best of its ability. I simply believe (based on the wishy-washy language of IAEA reports) that its ability is limited when it comes to physical access to an operational enrichment centrifuge. (talk) 19:53, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
All of these are fair critiques. International inspections are not easy and it is plausible that there could be corruption, incompetence, or oversight. We are all entitled to interpret the facts and publications subject to our own biases. I personally do not think there is significant corruption, incompetence, or oversight; I think the media poorly portrays the complexity of the problem, and presents a dramatically over-simplistic "good-guys and bad-guys" narrative with respect to nuclear safety. I imagine that if the tables were turned, and foreign inspectors showed up at your home, workplace, hospital, school, laboratory, or power station, carrying paperwork written in legalese in a foreign language, insisting that they had a right to inspect your things, you would not let them have free run of the place. You probably would call for your local or national government to help you kick these invaders off of your property! So it is with international inspectors in Iran. These international agencies run a very fine line between enforcing international laws (agreements, rather) - even when approved by the local government - and also complying with local laws.
You can find many opinion pieces and policy reviews that applaud the IAEA, and you can find many more publications that harshly criticize their work. Here's a perspective piece from the RAND Corporation, an organization that I find to be very well-informed and less susceptible to flimsy political biases than most media outlets: The Days After A Deal With Iran: Implications for the Non-Proliferation Regime. What irks me is not your bias or your opinions: I respect your right to those viewpoints. Surely I have my own biases and opinions...! But at least, when we contribute on the Reference Desk, we need to back up any claims with informed citations, so that all readers of our encyclopedia can form their own opinions.
Nimur (talk) 20:25, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
There was a computer virus released through Siemens I thought that gave a pretty good idea of the number of centrifuges Iran was using. The virus varied the spin rate too quickly and caused the centrifuges to become unstable and destroy themselves. There was quite a bit of data regarding repair that didn't quite jive with published accounts. --DHeyward (talk) 06:37, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
You are thinking of stuxnet. I'm not sure about gave a pretty good idea of the number of centrifuges Iran was using, I believe it was 'reverse engineered' to a degree, but I don't believe it "reported back" any information like number of centrifuges in Iran. In fact if I remember correctly, Iran was deduced to be the target mainly because that's where most of the infections were reported. Vespine (talk) 06:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Nice video and lecture re IEAE at and GangofOne (talk) 06:54, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Correct, Stuxnet couldn't report back because the centrifuge facilities do not have any form of connection to the Internet. That is what made Stuxnet so special - it was designed to get to a network that it had no means of reaching (until someone broke security protocol and brought in Stuxnet on a USB drive). Also, the "released through Siemens" statement is most likely incorrect. While it is easy to find countless blogs that claim Siemens was involved, the evidence based on the language in the code of Stuxnet and the purpose of Stuxnet points towards Israel. It is important to note that Israel has denied any involvement with Stuxnet. (talk) 12:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
There is even one more step involved. StuxNet infects PC's that are on the net - then installs itself onto memory sticks and USB music players. They bet that people would take these infected devices, put music on them and plug them into PC's that were NOT on the Internet so they could listen to music at work. Those PC's were then infected - but that's not what killed the centrifuges. Stuxnet actively seeks out PC's that were running a very specific application that the Iranians used to design software for the microprocessors that drive the centrifuges. That infected design software would then add extra code into every microprocessor application that the Iranians wrote that would check to see if it was controlling a centrifuge - and do to the nasty deed. It hid itself very well, so not even using the debugging software would find it...because the debugger was also infected. So not only were the centrifuges off-net, but so were the PC's used to write the software for the centrifuges. It required software engineers (who really ought to know better!) to bring infected memory sticks and music players from home to plug into security-sensitive machines at work. Very, very, clever - exceedingly hard to pull-off.
SteveBaker (talk) 22:31, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I should have been more clear. Siemens didn't create it, but I think they helped isolate it. The amount of tech support needed from Siemens was the indicator of the damage and scope of the program. Siemens wasn't called out to fix one centrifuge controller and they know how many times Siemens went and how many techs. JTAG is a wonderful thing. --DHeyward (talk) 22:37, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Star & Stellar Evolution[edit]

Hello, Can some check this two articles please, I believe its not done appropriately; information(s) might need to be migrated from one another... Regards -- Space Ghost (talk) 20:44, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

What exactly is the problem? I suggest that you post your suggestions to Talk: Star and Talk: Stellar evolution, or, if you know what the improvement would be, be bold and edit. Do you have a specific question? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:54, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
No, apology.
My English is not very good, therefore I'm not being bold enough to edit the articles...I don't wish to give out wrong information or make WP look like idiots English language usage type of thing, to others; if you know what I mean... Plus I have not come to English learning yet.
'Smoking' is my subject not 'science', so I always try to recheck with you guys as I'm learning... I've learnt most of it before, I'm learning it again in detail, and coming across some things, e.g., Star, Stellar Evolution, Star Formation, protostar and so on, all articles should be merged into one article named 'Star' and 'redirects' should be used for 'star formation', 'Stellar Evolution', 'protostar', 'pms' and so on. Because when someone wants to learn something it will be easier for them this way. I thought mentioning it here would give the upper what to do... -- Space Ghost (talk) 19:12, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Does anyone know, to whom I can speak about this? This one (Star) article has 5 babies (extra articles), not required...Its just needs to be organised... -- Space Ghost (talk) 19:45, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
You can try at the talk pages, but a better place would be Wikipedia:Proposed_mergers. There you can propose the merges and your reasons. I think people will disagree with your proposal, but I'm not sure. I understand your perspective, but we have different articles for a reason. If one article covered all that, it would be huge and hard to navigate. Also, not everyone who looks up stars wants to know all the details about their formation and evolution. However, there is a lot of redundancy stellar evolution is discussed in star, so maybe you should take it to proposed mergers. It would be interesting if nothing else. Here's one thing you can easily do: make sure that each page has links to the other pages. For example I just went to star and searched for "stellar evolution" - the words do occur, but they are not wiki-linked! There is a later link, but I see no reason not to link it at first mention. That's a way you can improve articles without even writing any new English. Beware of WP:OVERLINK, but don't worry about it too much. Overlinking is better than underlinking. So you can go to these and help make WP better just by linking articles together. That way people who want to learn will find it easier to find other related articles. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:57, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
They are linked hierarchically but perhaps it can be more direct. For example, star has a section for formation. There is a main article for star formation that has a subsection for protostar that is also a main article. Wikipedia is generally built this way. Some degree of flattening the links (i.e. a protostar reference in the star article that short circuits the star formation article) is sometimes helpful but I don't think merging will be in WP's interest due to size. Sometimes, the "What links here?" function can help with navigation. WP can be a cyclic graph which is sometimes the bane and anathema to persons that prefer flatter or acyclic graphs. --DHeyward (talk) 00:55, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
You both have valuable points, I don't think everyone will agree with my idea either now; because some people like dividing their learning's, the article might be long/big/vast and so on. If WP articles are built the way it is seen, it won't change...
If I find anymore article(s) in different subject(s) with a similar issue, then, (I don't know,) I might notify, for the sake of it.
Anyway, thanks for clearing my head friends. Love you all (not in a gay way!). SMocking.gif -- Space Ghost (talk) 07:35, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

July 1[edit]

How to dissolve/remove insulation film on magnet wire?[edit]


Hello Everyone. I would like to know how to dissolve/remove the insulation film on magnet wire. Also can this be done using everyday household products? Thanks for your help in advance, —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 13:35, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Probably most knives would work. Nil Einne (talk) 13:48, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Yeah I already did that. The problem with using a knife is the knife ends up cutting off most of the copper strands. Although that does work, albeit not very well. Is there any sort of solution I can whip up to dissolve the coating? I also read that the coating can only stand up to so much heat. So I was thinking about throwing it in the oven with a temperature of 500°F(of course I would first strip off the black plastic exterior). But I would like to use this only as a last resort. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 13:59, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Most magnet wire insulation will either burn or melt off (depending on the composition), and cleaning small amounts with a butane torch is not uncommon. However, the combination of carbon monoxide and isocyanates in the reaction product is really bad to breathe, so unless you are talking about very small quantities, I wouldn't recommend using heat without proper fume protection. Dragons flight (talk) 16:47, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
@Dragons flight: I am only talking about a fraction of the length of a set standard headphone wires. So I think that fumes wouldn't be a problem. However, there is some sort of soft, white cloth that the wire is wrapped around. I think that might cause a problem. However, I don't know whats it made out of. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 16:52, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Maybe sandpaper of a high grit carefully rubbed would get away the clear insulation without being strong enough to take down the copper. (talk) 14:23, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Great idea. I will try that. I don't know if it will make a difference but I have 4 wires. 2 of then are clear insulation and the other have green and blue insulation on them. Does the color make a difference? —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 14:26, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Are you aware of wire strippers? From a standpoint of stripping insulation, it's not clear to me that magnet wire is much different than any other insulated wire, and hence I think the standard tool for the job should work just fine. (p.s. knives also usually work fine, if much slower, given enough practice at not cutting the wire. It's just matter of knife handling skill. Sort of like how some people can peel a potato or onion in a few seconds, while others take minutes :) SemanticMantis (talk) 14:42, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
In this case, the insulation adheres to the wire, so wire strippers won't work very well. (talk) 14:53, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
My point exactly Yes I do know about wire strippers. But I am talking about coated insulation, not just plastic insulation. Read about it here: Magnet wire. Also, I am working with very light gauge speaker wire. Look at a pair of ear buds and see what I am talking about. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 15:40, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Ok, guess I was wrong, thought it couldn't hurt to point out. But I have stripped insulation from speaker wire using wire strippers without much problem; maybe different types adhere differently. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:06, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Emery cloth (but I expect fine sandpaper would be all right). Thincat (talk) 15:34, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Huh, never heard of Emery cloth. Good to know. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 15:42, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

I did it! I figured out how to get the coating off. I just burned it off with a candle lighter. The trick is though not to heat the wire so much that it glows brightly and falls off. What I do is I slowly move the flame up and down the wire until it starts to glow. Then I stop and blow on the wire to cool it down. And that's it. Now you can twist the wire with other bare conductive wires and it will conduct. If the wire doesn't conduct, then repeat the process. and test wire again. Thanks everyone for all your suggestions. Special thanks to @Dragons flight: for his suggestion. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 19:20, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

That's not a safe method. You can easily end up with brittle or oxidized wire. If you could use something like a soldering iron or heat gun it would be much better, as those don't heat the wire nearly as much as a candle flame. Looie496 (talk) 13:32, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I don't have access to a soldering iron or a heat gun. That's why I used a candle lighter. If I did have access to a soldering iron, I would definitely use it. And yes, the wire could oxidize or become brittle. But, if you do short strokes on the wire with the flame, it doesn't get brittle or oxidize. I have learned when the wire starts to glow, that's the time to pull the heat off and let the wire cool. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 19:07, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Some acids will do the job, but may also etch the metal, e.g. nitric acid, but that is not a household chemical. Martin451 20:28, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
That's good to know. It sounds way better than my current method described above. I will give that a try. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 19:07, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
If it's an enamel based insulation you can use acetone (nail polish remover). Other solvents may work as well (home depot has many). If using a lighter or soldering iron, put a clip-on heat sink (soldering kits usually have them. It will stop the heat from transferring as much down the wire. --DHeyward (talk) 03:17, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I am not working with a wire that has a heat sink or transformer at the end. I am only working with an audio wire. So heat transferring down the wire isn't a problem. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 19:07, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
It's not a heat sink at the end of the wire, it's a clip on metal piece that looks like pliers. The reason is so you don't melt insulation beyond the point of attachment. It really just adds mass. It's also used when you are soldering wire and only want the solder point to melt, not the other connection-point especially with short wires. --DHeyward (talk) 20:12, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Ok good to know. —SGA314 I am not available on weekends (talk) 13:51, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Ape Ejaculation[edit]

(Moved from Entertainment desk by SemanticMantis (talk) 14:52, 1 July 2015 (UTC))

How does the quantity of ejaculation compare between different primates. For instance, people, chimpanzees and gorillas. Chimps, being smaller have the largest testicles whereas gorillas the smallest. People are in the middle. So who's load is the most? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:23, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Check out the book Reproductive Biology of the Great Apes: Comparative and Biomedical Perspectives here [6], maybe this book [7] the article Ejaculate quality, testes size and sperm competition in primates here [8], and the article Comparative Population Genomics of the Ejaculate in Humans and the Great Apes here [9]. If those don't have the info, it's probably in the refs cited therein. Some are freely accessible and some are not. You can ask me or at WP:REX if you can't get full access to an article (often doing a regular google search for the full title will bring up an available copy). SemanticMantis (talk) 14:50, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Vinegar to clean glass - why?[edit]

Why is vinegar commonly recommended to clean glass? What are the chemical reactions intended? ----Seans Potato Business 16:52, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Vinegar is mostly water and Acetic acid, which is a weak acid. Acetic_acid#Solvent_properties discusses the properties that make it a decent glass cleaner - in part it is because it can dissolve both polar and non-polar compounds. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:21, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
A few-percent acetic acid in water is pretty much "water" not "acetic acid", and is probably still a very poor solvent for non-polar materials. A petty common organic lab technique is to do a reaction in 100% acetic acid as solvent, then add water and the product precipitates out in good yield. It usually only takes 1–3 volumes of water vs the acid to accomplish it, which is still several times higher concentration of the acid than vinegar is. DMacks (talk) 19:23, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
(ec)Vinegar (like most acids) removes limescale (calcium carbonate), converting it into CO2, H2O, and a calcium salt - Calcium acetate in the case of vinegar. This salt is usually water soluble, and hence easy to remove. --Stephan Schulz (talk)
Or you can use hydrofluoric acid, which will leave the glass so clean it will look like there's no glass there at all ! :-) StuRat (talk) 04:37, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Dead slow, or damn fast[edit]

Up ahead on the track you know your loco engine and train will have to cross a severely damaged bridge. If the bridge fails, you are dead. What is the best speed to crosss the bridge. Dead slow, or damn fast??-- (talk) 19:54, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

On foot.
It depends on the bridge. Remove as much weight as possible from the train, and go slowly. You will be less likely to damage the bridge than going fast. If there is a reasonable chance of the bridge surviving, then this is the best strategy.
If it is certain that the bridge will fail, then again remove all weight, and go as fast as possible, hoping to clear the bridge before it collapses.
In all circumstances, get the passengers, unneeded crew to walk across first, carrying as much needed supplies as possible. Unhook unneeded carriages. Martin451 20:23, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
The question is "What speed?" not "What else could I do?". SteveBaker (talk) 21:07, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I think it has to depend on how the bridge is damaged.
  1. Suppose a critical bolt has worked itself loose and is just holding together by an inch or so? Going fast would presumably create vibrations that would shake the bolt loose and destroy the bridge - where going slowly might avoid that.
  2. Suppose it's a key component that's got a small crack in it - the process of crack propagation might take time - so going slowly would spell disaster, where getting across before the crack propagates to a disaster point would save the train.
  3. Suppose induced oscillation in the bridge would spell disaster? In that case, travelling at some particular speed at which the oscillations are at their worst would destroy the bridge and any other speed would be safe. With that possibility, there is no specific speed which is better than any other - unless you know a lot about the bridge and how it's failing.
My (admittedly intuitive) bet is that there is no one "right" way - it depends on the nature of the damage, the nature of the train, etc.
SteveBaker (talk) 21:06, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Dead slow, to mitigate the Hammer blow forces.--Aspro (talk) 21:21, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
But the bridge could fail under sustained static loading. What Then??-- (talk) 21:36, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I believe that these "hammer blow" forces only apply to steam that's unlikely to be a good answer in general. Also, I disagree that "dead slow" is always the right answer - it's easy to imagine engineering situations where the frequency of some vibration induced by the train is the cause of the final collapse - and the appropriate speed would be something that doesn't induce that frequency...which could quite easily mean that going faster is better. Hence the answer is still "It depends" and not "Slow". SteveBaker (talk) 18:38, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
A train? Over a failing bridge? Trains need tracks that are smooth and uniform in the separation between rails. Unlike what you might see in movies, I don't think there is any way that going "damn fast" is going to allow a train to get across a failing bridge. Once it actually starts to fail, it will already be too late for the train regardless of its speed. The only hope is that you can cross the bridge without it failing, which for most failure modes will make slow the only practical option. Dragons flight (talk) 22:45, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I am also reminded of a mythbusters episode [10] where they tested whether it is possible to make a last second leap to safety from a failing rope bridge. Their answer in that case was no. Once the rope loses tension there is no longer anything to push against so you can't make an effective jump. Of course, rail bridges are not supported by simple tension, but if the failure mode of the rail bridge is such that the rails are really falling from under the train, then I'd expect the outcome to be similar and that no amount of speed is likely to change that. Dragons flight (talk) 18:49, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
What then? Then it's your own fault for collapsing your bridge!
In the United States, railway bridges are 100% private - (unlike all other bridges - pedestrian bridges, automobile bridges...) - there is no government agency or public utility who oversees railway bridges or even vets them for safety. For example, have a read through this article on a new rail bridge route proposed near my childhood hometown: an LPG rail transport bridge over Watkins Glen State Park. So: if a train crushes a bridge and the bridge fails catastrophically, it's your own fault for owning a rail bridge and operating a railroad! (This is why the Watkins Glen issue is so controversial: how can we make sure a fiery explosion doesn't engulf our state park if our regulators have no authority?)
As I enjoy reading about railroads and federal regulations, I went digging into the details here, and I found this Explanation and Amplification of FRA's 'Statement of Agency Policy on the Safety of Railroad Bridges' . If you own or operate a railway, you should have a professional engineer with competency "in the field of railroad engineering" evaluate whether your bridge is safe at any speed. It is your responsibility to determine what speeds are safe! Specifically, the FRA recommends against returning rail track to operation over a suspicious bridge - even at restricted speed, until the actual structural problems with the bridge are diagnosed and resolved by a competent engineer. However, this is a recommendation and not a regulation! FRA Track Safety Standards Fact Sheet.
Nimur (talk) 22:49, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
But I thought "unsafe at any speed" wasn't applicable to choo-choos? Nyttend (talk) 23:29, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
One case where faster is better is the "Evel Knievel" jump (my name for it):
       |     +------
       |     |
Here there is a break in the track and a drop. If you go fast enough you will land safely on the other side, while if going too slow you will splat into the wall on the other side. I've seen this at work in the case of a car driving over a pothole. However, with a train, it would somehow need to get back on the track, although perhaps derailing on the other side would be less dangerous than crashing down into the ravine. StuRat (talk) 00:57, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
The only solution I can think that mitigates both dynamic and static problems (assuming the bridge is level), is to accelerate as fast as posible and coast across the bridge. Coasting should be a static load (though the rate of change of mass on the bridge could still be a problem). Under power, there is a also a lateral stress on the rails that isn't present wjile rolling except for the rolling friction force against motion). It's still not a tractable problem without knowing the mechanism of failure (i.e. damage). If the damage is exacerbated by cantilever or horizontal forces is a different solution than vertical load damage. Now, if you have a near lights speed probably don't need a bridge. --DHeyward (talk) 04:11, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
There is no point in risking being dead, so dead slow obviously. At the slow rate of one cm per day you will have time to have a crew work on getting the bridge fixed before you begin crossing. Otherwise enlist the help of Thor to hold it together if he is available. --Wetdreamshere (talk) 04:43, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Guys, you all seem to be repeating a lot of pseudoscience, and without any reference at all! Have you got a professional engineering license with specialization in railroad engineering? Have you studied bridge design as part of your civil engineering curriculum? Have you even bothered to spend a half hour reading about this topic before speculating on it? Why do you think riding slowly is any safer? At least User:DHeyward has shifted the discussion towards static and dynamic loads, which is a step in the right direction towards an analytical solution. But without actually studying a specific bridge, performing detailed and rigorous analysis, we can't know that riding slowly is even slightly safer than riding fast. In fact, I've already provided a source which specifically calls out this fallacy as a contributing factor to many accidents!
Step back, find some reliable sources - like a textbook on railroad bridge engineering, or a website on Railroad Bridge Safety Standards. Read it. Exercise some critical thinking. Then you can provide informed commentary, instead of idle (and often wildly inaccurate) speculation. Engineers do not validate bridge safety using ASCII-art and unrefined gut intuition. Nimur (talk) 05:33, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Thor and company doesn't really need a textbook because they will hire only the very best qualified bridge contractors. --Modocc (talk) 06:13, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Critical thinking tells us that the answer clearly depends on the state of the bridge and the exact nature of the failure that it's suffered. So the answer is "It depends" - and no amount of additional reading or reference hunting will improve on that answer since the OP is unspecific as to the nature of the failure, the size/weight/length/etc of the train or how slow is "slow" and how fast is "fast". So we don't need to go to all the difficult lengths you describe to answer the question clearly and simply. SteveBaker (talk) 18:34, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

If I may digress into fiction: This exact situation occurs in Jules Verne's famous novel Around the World in Eighty Days. They decide to go as fast as possible; they get across, but the bridge collapses behind them. Of course Verne was a science-fiction/adventure writer, not an engineer! Incidentally, in the novel the speed they reach is 100 mph (and yes, even in the original French it's given in miles per hour): in fact the speed record for steam locomotives at the time was around 80–90 mph. But in the 1956 movie they changed it to 30 mph!

And back to real life: in 2005 there was a bridge that collapsed under a train in Italy, but the train got across—because the rails remained intact and supported it! See Eurostar 9410 derailment. -- (talk) 07:08, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

No seasons[edit]

Is there anywhere in the world that experiences no significant meteorological seasons, places where the stars are the only part of nature that changes from month to month? Of course it would have to be on or close to the equator, since the amount of sunlight can't vary very much. But it seems like most equatorial regions have distinct dry and wet seasons; are there any exceptions? Just looking for locations on land, not oceanic locations. Nyttend (talk) 21:38, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Map of all tropical cyclone/hurricane tracks from 1945 to 2006.
The answer here [11] seems useful. Dragons flight (talk) 22:13, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Singapore may have the smallest seasonal amplitude of any well-known place. It has near-zero temperature seasonality and a modest annual cycle of rainfall due to the monsoon. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:08, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I remember a professor in college saying that Quito, Ecuador - due to the combined facts that it is on the equator and its elevation is over 9000 feet - was mild and spring like all year round. According to Quito#Climate it looks like there is a little more to it than that. MarnetteD|Talk 03:22, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Being on a small island in the middle of an ocean helps to moderate temperatures (as long as the ocean doesn't freeze over). So, I'd go with an island near the equator, for temperatures. Of course, hurricanes/monsoons/cyclones are still a possibility, but some spots seem relatively safe from those, too, as the pic of historic hurricanes and cyclones shows. StuRat (talk) 04:27, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Based on people that have lived there, I have to go with Singapore as well. Ocean islands are temperate but the ocean is pretty seasonal everywhere. Another interesting place is the southpole. Not really a season as one long 6 month day followed by a 6 month night. No rain and the temperature is only cold. At "night" planes can't get there though. --DHeyward (talk) 04:50, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
"Cold" is a relative thing. South_Pole#Climate_and_day_and_night puts the lows at -20°F in summer versus -80°F in winter. That's the difference between relatively normal winter gear and something more akin to a space suit. StuRat (talk) 05:09, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Ahhh but that's a day/night diurnal difference, not seasonal. :). Besides, for me, the difference between -20°F and -80°F is like the difference between dead and deader :). --DHeyward (talk) 05:44, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
That is -29 °C to -62 °C for those that use sensible units. Fgf10 (talk) 07:23, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
That makes it sound so much warmer. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:12, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

July 3[edit]

Camera with built in selfie stick[edit]

Why don't camera manufacturer create a point and shoot camera with a built in selfie stick and a shutter button on the selfie stick itself? (talk) 01:09, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

(1) How do you know they don't? (2) Why don't you contact some major manufacturers and present them with your idea? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:51, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I thought most cameras had the standard tripod thread (not on cell phones). If it doesn't make it smaller, it's prbably not cost effective. A lot of feature decisions are based on differentiation and what people will pay for differentiation. If "built-in selfie stick" is a cool feature but not something people will pay more or at the same price allow market share growth, it won't get added because it adds to the BOM without an ROI. 3D TV's and 3D cameras are products that had higher BOM with little ROI and they tend to disappear from the market. --DHeyward (talk) 03:14, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
BOM = bill of materials (effectively manufacturing cost), ROI = return on investment (effectively profit). Smurrayinchester 08:23, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Are selfie sticks used for cameras? I know they CAN be used with a camera, but the only people I see that use a selfie stick are people who use their cell phone as a camera. (talk) 16:36, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
We do have an article on selfie stick. Apparently there are some specifically designed to use with non-phone cameras. I don't know if anyone has bothered (yet) to gather statistics on usage with cameras that have phones compared to cameras that do not have phones. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:12, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Measuring displacement, velocity, acceleration, jerk, etc.[edit]

Hi, we can measure the displacement of a body, we can also measure its velocity, but can we measure the derivatives of displacement wrt time of any order? Thanx! (talk) 10:03, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Displacement and velocity can be measured but only after we have defined the reference frame in which the measurements will be taken. This dependence on reference frame means these two measurements are always arbitrary - a person using a different reference frame will achieve different measurements. In contrast, force, mass and acceleration are not dependent on our choice of reference frame (at least in Newtonian mechanics). Different persons using different reference frames for the measurement of these things will all measure the same acceleration (and force and mass).
For example, a traveler in space or in orbit can turn on an accelerometer and read his acceleration (by comparison with zero acceleration he experienced when calibrating the accelerometers) but there is no similar device that will display displacement or velocity. Dolphin (t) 10:58, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
If we fix a reference frame (and we don't know whether or not it is an inertial frame of reference) then we can measure the (vector) displacement of an object in that reference frame at various points in time. If we make two measurements in a small enough time interval then we can *approximate* the instantaneous velocity of the object, and if we make more measurements in a small enough time interval then we can *approximate* its instantaneous acceleration, jerk etc. But I don't know of any way to actually *measure* instantaneous velocity, acceleration, jerk etc in a general reference frame. We can only use F = ma to measure acceleration if (a) we know the mass of the object - which requires a reference mass unless maybe our object is a fundamental particle - and (b) we know that our reference frame is inertial. Gandalf61 (talk) 11:24, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
See accelerometer. However, the acceleration due to gravity is included in that measurement, so you would need to do some vector math to remove that component, if near a massive body (like Earth). StuRat (talk) 16:04, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
... but to calibrate the accelerometer you need some independent means of measuring acceleration. Gandalf61 (talk) 16:19, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Egg Hatching[edit]

How long should it take for Dove eggs to hatch? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:581:8400:9D36:CA2A:14FF:FE3F:3730 (talk) 15:34, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

It will depend on the species, you can easily google for results and add the species name for more specific info. But if your Dove Eggs hatch, you should film it and call the local news. μηδείς (talk) 11:47 am, Today (UTC−4)
[12] lists 15 days, but it might vary by species/subspecies. StuRat (talk) 15:53, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
It won't very that much though. The shortest dove incubation I can find is 12+/- 0.8 days, here [13], and the common mourning dove takes 13-14 days [14]. Interestingly, the little desert diamond doves in the first link are nearing a fairly absolute limit of about 11 days for any bird. This paper [15] discusses how many birds were reported to have 9-10 day incubation times, but those were probably due to bad methodologies, and not accurate measurements of real incubation. As of 1953, there were no records of any incubation under 11 days. I also couldn't find any good records of a dove species with a 16 day incubation period. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:28, 3 July 2015 (UTC)


June 28[edit]

Everywhere discontinuously differentiable function[edit]

Can someone please give, if possible, an example of a (real-valued) function that is everywhere differentiable, but whose derivative is everywhere discontinuous? If such a function can't exist, why?--Jasper Deng (talk) 10:40, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Apparently not... (talk) 14:03, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
If you want some fun "counterexamples", get hold at Counterexamples in Analysis by Gelbaum and Olmsted. It doesn't give this particular one, but many others. YohanN7 (talk) 10:12, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
The set of discontinuities of a derivative is a set of the first category. In particular, by the Baire category theorem, its complement is non-empty. For proof, see John Oxtoby, "Measure and category". Sławomir Biały (talk) 11:03, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
For a set in [0, 1] of category I and measure 1 and a set in [0, 1] of measure 0 and category II, see above mentioned book. YohanN7 (talk) 11:49, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Almost conjugate matrices[edit]

We know that there is a nonsingular matrix A so AX=YA iff X and Y are conjugate iff they have the same Jordan normal form (at least over a complete field). What about when AX=YA where A is singular but still nonzero? The set {A:AX=YA} is a vector space which can have dimension from 0 to n2 depending on X and Y. If X and Y are diagonalizable and they have no eigenvalues in common then the dimension is 0, but what can be said about the dimension if they do have eigenvalues in common? And what about the nondiagonalizable case? I was mainly interested in 2×2 rotation matrices X = R(α), Y = R(β). In this case the dimension is 4 if α=β=0 or α=β=π; 2 if α=±β; and 0 otherwise. But I thought the more general question might be interesting as well. --RDBury (talk) 20:41, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

June 29[edit]

Logic puzzle[edit]

I can't search for answers to this, as I don't know what to call it.

Imagine a sparsely filled in grid with one location being the prize cell. X knows the x coordinate. Y knows the y coordinate. (1) Y says "I do not know where the prize is. And I know you do not know where the prize is". (2) X thinks and then says "I did not know where the prize was, but now I do". (3) Y then says "Now so do I".

How do you solve this? 1a permits you to eliminate all y coords with only one cell in them - else Y would know which cell. 1b obviously eliminates all x coords with only one cell in them - else X would know which cell. Additionally I think it eliminates all y coords with a cell that is solo in a x coord. But then I run out of steam.

In the example below

* * * A * * * * B *
C * * * * * * * * *
* * * D * E * * * F
* * * * * * G * * *
* * * * H * * * J *
* * K * * * * * * *
* L * * * * * M N *
* * * P * Q * R * *

1a eliminates CGK 1b eliminates FHL and thus DEF HJ LMN

That leaves ABPQR. What next? (BTW, I know the answer, I just can't work out why it is the answer.) -- SGBailey (talk) 07:48, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

For the first clue, Y does not know where the prize is, so Y must know a y-coordinate which matches more than one letter. Y also knows that X does not know where the prize is, which means that for each letter in the row Y has been given, there is another letter in the same column (otherwise, if that were the correct answer, then X would know it). So 1a eliminates C, DEF (since if the answer was F, then X could know it, any Y knows that X cannot know it), G, HJ (ditto for H), K, LMN. Which leaves just AB and PQR. I'll let you finish off working it out, but bear in mind you cannot get the answer until you apply the final clue (i.e. you can only know the answer after both X and Y know it). MChesterMC (talk) 08:34, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
You have just repeated the analysis that I presented in the question, leaving as an exercise the part of the solution that I haven't worked out how to do. I'm afraid I didn't find that helpful. -- SGBailey (talk) 09:32, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Can you explain this logic further... Suppose Y knows it is in the DEF row, but doesn't know which one it could be. When X says he doesn't know which it is, that eliminates F. You state that it also eliminates D and E because it cannot be F. Why? If it were D, Y wouldn't know if it was D or E and X wouldn't know if it was A, D, or P. If it was E, Y wouldn't know if it was D or E and X wouldn't know if it was E or Q. (talk) 19:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
(2) tells us that after excluding all those that (1) excludes, X should know where it is. So, of ABPQR it couldn't be A or P which share an x coordinate. Then (3) tells us that once we exclude all those that (2) exlcudes, Y knows where it is. Therefore, of those allowed by (2), BQR, it must additionally have a unique y coordinate. That leaves B. (talk) 11:13, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. A "very involved" solution. Do these kind of problems have a name? -- SGBailey (talk) 12:45, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
You just want a recursive solution. The solution takes the board and eliminates all rows and columns with a single solution. Then, recursively solve that board. To make it stop, do not make a recursive attempt if no columns or rows were removed. (talk) 18:44, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
That's not enough to solve it. That only gets you down to ABDEMNPQR. You also need that Y knows the answer once he knows that X knows, to solve it. StuRat (talk) 19:12, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Since each person's strategy is based on assuming the other player is rational (and quite intelligent, in this case), this gets into game theory. StuRat (talk) 19:17, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I really don't think game theory applies. Game theory is when people actually have a choice of what to do. Here the actors don't have a choice, they're merely reporting everything they know, and they're assumed to be perfect deducers. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 21:25, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Doesn't the fact that the conclusions they draw are dependent on the actions of others (the accuracy and honesty of their statements, in this case) qualify ? StuRat (talk) 22:38, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't think so. "Dependence" on the other's accuracy and honesty is only meaningful if there is a counterfactual possibility that the other party is not accurate or honest. If each person had a probability of being incorrect, and a choice of whether to be honest or not, and a payoff table that depends on both of their actions, then it would be game theory. But here there is no choice - the people are merely following the script of the problem statement.
You could try to force this problem into game theory formulation, but - game theory analysis generally starts with a description of the game, and then deduces the best actions; here we are not given a description of the game, we are just given the actions that actually take place. Formulating it as game theory would take you further from a solution, not closer - once you did this, you will still have to solve the problem using normal logic as we did here. The tools of game theory simply don't help. It's like being asked to calculate 3*4, and trying to solve it by phrasing it as a decision theory problem where the player gets the most utility by choosing the correct answer for 3*4. You'd still need to calculate 3*4 to find his best action. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 10:10, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't know of a name for it, but a problem of this kind called the "Cheryl birthday problem" caused quite a bit of hype a short time ago. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 21:25, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Broadly, it's a type of logic puzzle. The "Cheryl birthday" problem mentioned by Meni has an artile Cheryl's_Birthday, and it is indeed very similar. Another logic puzzle that hinges around people reporting what they know is this one [16]. SemanticMantis (talk) 21:50, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Semantic, I have to admit defeat. Do you have the solution? Widneymanor (talk) 07:47, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

"Unseriesable " Number?[edit]

I would like to know, if there is a definition to a real unseriesable number.
Meaning that there isn't any series that its limit is that number.
23:15, 29 June 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Exx8 (talkcontribs)

Every real number is the sum of some infinite series. Is that what you were asking? I'm not quite sure. --Trovatore (talk) 23:32, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
For any real number V there is a trivial sequence v, whose limit is V: \lim_{i\to\infty}v_i=V — a constant sequence (v_i)_{i\in\Bbb N} defined by v_i = V. If we take a sequence of differences:
d_i=\begin{cases}v_i & \text{for }i=1\\v_i-v_{i-1} & \text{for }i>0\end{cases}\ \ =\ \begin{cases}V & \text{for }i=1\\0 & \text{for }i>0\end{cases}
then the sum of d series is clearly V:
Of course there are also other sequences convergent to V, for example a sequence of longer and longer decimal approximations, and each such sequence defines a series summing up to V.
For \pi it might be a sequence
v = (3, 3.1, 3.14, 3.141, 3.1415, 3.14159,\dots)
and a corresponding series
d = (3, 0.1, 0.04, 0.001, 0.0005, 0.00009,\dots)
--CiaPan (talk) 05:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

June 30[edit]

Usefulness vs. naturalness[edit]

There is one special mathematical equation that is defined as such because it is useful, rather than because it is natural. This is that:

 0^0 = 1

Are there any other equations of this kind?? Georgia guy (talk) 15:14, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Sort of similar to 0!=1. See Factorial#Definition and empty product. I get what you mean, but I don't think the useful/natural distinction is very compatible with the axiomatic nature of math. Do you think the irrational numbers "unnatural"? What about the axiom of choice? Perhaps a better distinction would be "definition by convention" as opposed to "properties that directly follow from axiom and inference". It is by convention that we define the empty product to be 1, but it is also useful, and in some sense natural (what other choice could be more natural?) SemanticMantis (talk) 16:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
0!=1 is actually very natural. It is consistent with the combination of 2 facts: 1! is 1 and that n! is related to (n+1)! simply by dividing by n+1, and 1 divided by 1 is 1; it's not an indeterminate form. Georgia guy (talk) 16:09, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
They both come down to the empty product though... SemanticMantis (talk) 18:47, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Oh boy here we go again. Anyway, as I see it: whether  0^0 = 1 is natural depends on what sort of exponentiation you're thinking of. If you're thinking of repeated multiplication, that is natural-number-to-natural-number or real-number-to-natural-number or complex-number-to-natural-number exponentiation, then  0^0 = 1 is quite natural. That's because it's an empty product.
However, real-number-to-real-number exponentiation is a conceptually different operation. It cannot be viewed as repeated multiplication. In that context, the argument for the naturalness of  0^0 = 1 loses its force. (So, by the way, do most of the arguments for usefulness.) --Trovatore (talk) 16:27, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
You're implying that 0 is a natural number here, aren't you?? Georgia guy (talk) 16:42, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Oh, there are levels to that question :-). But in the sense I think you mean it, yes, like most set theorists and C programmers, I start counting with 0. It's the natural choice :-) --Trovatore (talk) 17:30, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
You mean, to you June is the fifth month of the year?? (More generally, January is the zeroth and February is the first.) Georgia guy (talk) 17:45, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
No no; I'm still speaking English. No one would understand me if I adopted that convention. But my loop indices start with 0, and the base case of most inductions/recursions is naturally indexed by 0. --Trovatore (talk) 18:06, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
An exponentiation
for cardinal numbers A and V represents the cardinality of a set of functions from a domain of cardinality A ('A' for 'arguments') into a codomain of cardinality V ('v' for 'values'). For example there are 10^2 functions from a two-element set into a ten-element set (those function may be represented e.g. as 2-digit decimal strings '00', '01',... '99'). Then 0^0 is a number of functions from an empty set (whose cardinality is zero, |\{\}|=0) into itself—and there is exactly one such function: the empty function.
Hence naturally  0^0 = 1 .--CiaPan (talk) 08:40, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

It helps to distinguish between an ordinal number and an index: Ordinal numbers (first, second, third, . . . ) start with 1 while indexes may start with 0.

Consider the polynomial

f(x)=\sum_{k=0}^n a_k x^k

The first coefficient a0 has index zero, and the first term a0x0 has degree zero.

The recursive definition for real-or-complex-number-to-nonnegative-integer exponentiation

x0 = 1 and x1+n = x·xn

defines 00 = 1 and 01 = 0.

The formula for nonzero-number-to-negative-integer exponentiation

xn = 1/xn

defines (–1)–1 = –1 but 0–1 remains undefined.

The formula for positive-real-number-to-real-or-complex-number exponentiation

a^x=e^{x\log a}

does not define neither 00 nor 01 nor (–1)–1. Some people leave 00 undefined. Strangely they don't leave 01 and (–1)–1 undefined as well. Bo Jacoby (talk) 09:12, 3 July 2015 (UTC).

Very fast growing function[edit]

Define g(n) to be the factorial of n taken n times (again with the convention that g(0) = 1 due to the empty product). For example, g(3) = 3!!! = 6!! = 720! and g(5) = 5!!!!! = 120!!!! etc. (the factorial signs mean iterated factorials, not the double factorial or any related kind). Has anyone investigated this function before? In particular, is there an analytic continuation of it? Obviously it's an extremely fast-growing function; I might even conjecture that it's faster than tetration.

I came up with this when considering the generating function of the sequence of reciprocals, f(x) = \sum_{k = 0}^\infty \frac{x^k}{g(k)}. This surely has to be an entire function as I can't come up with any singularities for it and it converges absolutely and extremely quickly. My question for it is, is it elementary? More generally, how do we show whether a given function is elementary or not?--Jasper Deng (talk) 18:15, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the "faster than tetration" thing (though it might depend on what you mean exactly). It's a well known-riddle to show that a tower of powers of 9's is bigger than applying ! to 9 the same number of times. Of course x!>9^x, but 9^9>9!, and since the argument of the function is much more important than the choice of function, the gap is enough to make sure the factorials never catch up. This result should generalize easily. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 20:26, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
By "faster than tetration" I'm considering the question of \lim_{n\to\infty} \frac{g(n)}{^na} for any fixed value of a (not ^nn which I think grows faster than g). If g grows faster, then this limit increases without bound. For example, I am pretty sure that g(15) is greater than 159.--Jasper Deng (talk) 21:01, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Also, generalizing g as follows provides a functional equation, just like for the factorial function. Let h(m, n) be defined as: 1 if m and n are both 0, m if n = 0 and m positive, h(m!, n - 1) if n > 0. Then g(n) = h(n, n).--Jasper Deng (talk) 21:48, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Here's more information about extending g(n) to g(x). Since 1 and 2 are fixed points of the factorial function, I believe that g'(1) = 1 - \gamma \approx 0.422784 which is the derivative of \Gamma(x+1) at 1, and g'(2) = (3 - 2\gamma)^2 \approx 3.406124 which is the square of the derivative of \Gamma(x+1) at 2. It should be possible to calculate g(x) for half-integers by using the functional square root of \Gamma(x+1). Using the formula on this page I get g(1.5) ≈ 1.253. Getting more digits is hard because of huge cancellations in the formula, but it might be possible using multiprecision. Egnau (talk) 14:23, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I guess, but I have my doubts that the functional roots can really provide a complete analytic continuation of g (what about g(π)?). It certainly would help to have a better closed form than just that. Also, I'm unsure of the derivatives you propose because for one, as the number of factorials is not constant one must also consider values in the neighborhood of 1 and 2, where the factorial isn't fixed; I also would probably not be satisfied with that interpolation because 1.5! = \Gamma(1.5 + 1) = \frac{3\sqrt{\pi}}{4} > 1.253, and the functional square root of the factorial should be an increasing function. --Jasper Deng (talk) 05:22, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I think that studying functional roots is your best hope of getting an analytic continuation. g(π) isn't a problem, Schröder's equation works for any real iterate.
I don't understand your issue with my derivatives. The derivation is elementary: let F(x) = \Gamma(x+1) and ignore terms in \epsilon^2 or higher. The effect of iterating F in the neighborhood of 2 is as follows:
F(2+\epsilon) = 2+c\epsilon where c = F'(2)
F^{[2]}(2+\epsilon) = 2+c^2\epsilon
F^{[3]}(2+\epsilon) = 2+c^3\epsilon.
We're interested in g(2+\epsilon) = F^{[2+\epsilon]}(2+\epsilon) = 2+c^{2+\epsilon}\epsilon = 2+c^2\epsilon
so g'(2) = c^2.
Also I don't understand your issue with my interpolation. Do you agree that
h(1.5, 0) = 1.5
h(1.5, 1) ≈ 1.329340
h(1.5, 2) ≈ 1.187710 ?
Why is my estimate h(1.5, 1.5) ≈ 1.253 out of place? Egnau (talk) 08:50, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
On further examination your interpolation seems to be consistent with my definition, though I still find it very hard to believe that g is not monotonically increasing for all n > 1... you would seem to imply that it is meaningful to consider \lim_{n\to\infty} h(1.5, n). Then there has got to be a turning point. Where is that? I'm still unconvinced by the derivatives (why is \lim_{\epsilon\to0}\frac{F^{2+\epsilon}(2+\epsilon) - F^2(2)}{\epsilon} = \lim_{\epsilon\to0}\frac{F^2(2+\epsilon) - F^2(2)} = (F^2)'(2)?) on the grounds that because I'm 100% sure g(x)>x! for all x > 2, it should be greater than that.
Note that I also realize that there are infinitely many possible ways to interpolate this analytically, although not necessarily with all the properties I desire.--Jasper Deng (talk) 17:07, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Distance matrix[edit]

I have a set of strings and I want to compute the edit distance between all pairs in the set. Is there a more efficient way to create the matrix of distances than computing the Levenshtein distance for each pair individually? (besides the obvious distance(i,j) = distance(j,i)). (talk) 23:08, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Assuming that by "edit distance" you are referring to "Levenshtein edit distance", it is important to note that the order of the strings in comparison does not matter. Levenshtein(A,B) = Levenshtein(B,A). So, for string A, B, C, D..., the worst you could do is compare A to everything, then compare B to everything by A, then compare C to everything but A and B... The issue is trying to compare one string to more than one string. Doing so would not be faster using the standard Wagner-Fischer dynamic matrix solution - which is what most people use. You *could* compare one string to a N strings, but you would still make 3N comparisons per cell of the matrix. There is no benefit. To get an improvement, you need to sort the strings. Then, you have to get the longest common initial substring. If you have N strings that begin with "AHEKKDEG", you can compare a string to "AHEKKDEG" first. From there, you compare to the rest of the strings for each one. Then, you have a mostly complete matrix to work with from that point on. I personally wouldn't do it that way - too much work. What I would do...
  1. Sort the strings
  2. Compare string A to B (assuming that you call the first one A and the second one B after sorting).
  3. Get distance A-B and B-A from that.
  4. Replace the top of the matrix, currently holding B, with C - but note how many columns are the same as B (a lot since I sorted the strings first).
  5. Start my calculation of A-C and C-A from the first column of difference between C and B.
  6. Repeat for every string left - using the most precaculated columns as possible for each new string.
There is a problem here... Levenshtein functions are usually as optimized as they can possibly be. If you are writing your own, it will likely NOT be optimized. You need to look at the header file that includes your Levenshtein function and really understand the code so you can write nearly the same code. If you are using a scripting language, such as PHP, you simply cannot write code as efficient because the built-in function will be compiled, not scripted. Hopefully that is helpful. (talk) 17:44, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Least Symmetric Triangle?[edit]

Let T be the set of all triangles in the x-y plane with one vertex at 0,0, one vertex at 1,0 and one at x,y where y is positive and x>=.5. Let L be the set of lines in the x-y plane. let t in T and l in L be chosen. S(t,l) is the percentage symmetry that t has in l, defined as the percentage of t, where the mirror across l is also in t. (So if you chose an icosceles triangle ABC where AB = AC and l is the line through A and the midpoint of BC, the value of S(ABC, line(A->MidpointBC)) woud be 1. Any other line would of course be inferior unless the triangle was equalateral.

Let MS(t) = maximum over all l in L of S(t,l) (so MS(t) is 1 for any icosceles triangle t). What triangle t in T has the smallest MS(t) and what is that MS(t)?Naraht (talk) 23:21, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I have a hard time following your question, since "percentage symmetry" and "mirror across l" are both ill-defined to me.--Jasper Deng (talk) 23:47, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
The percentage symmetry for a triangle for a given l is the percentage of the triangle mirrored in l that overlaps l. If l doesn't intersect the triangle then the value will be zero.Naraht (talk) 00:03, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
That's still a bit ill-defined (it would be helpful if you could link an article on defining those terms). What does it mean for a triangle to overlap l? Are you talking about the ratio of area in t on one side of l to the area on the other side of l? In that case, the answer to your original question can be found by computing S as a function of the parameters that define l (namely its slope and y-intercept, or equivalently, two points along it) and the parameters that define t (the "free" point) and solving for \nabla S = \mathbf{0} for l that crosses t; any l that does not intersect t need not be considered. On obtaining the maximum of S for a given t, it then provides an expression for MS(t), which can be similarly solved as a function of the triangle's parameters.--Jasper Deng (talk) 00:25, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I think it's fairly clear what the OP is asking for. If T is a triangle and l is a line, let Tl be the reflection of T through l and define S(T, l) as Area(T∩Tl)/Area(T). Now define S(T) as the maximum of all lines l of S(T, l). The value of S(T) for a given triangle is well defined and there is some l for which S(T, l)=S(T). So see this, it's clear that you only need to consider lines which intersect T, so if l is parametrized as l(t, r) = {(x,y): cost x + sint y = r} the set of pairs (t, r) with 0≤t≤π and l(t, r) ∩ T ≠ ∅ is bounded and therefor compact. Then the question is, what is the minimum possible value of S(T) over all triangles T. We know 0 is a lower bound for S(T) so there is a greatest lower bound, S say. But it's not clear that there is a triangle T that achieves it. It's conceivable that there is a sequence of triangles that get longer and thinner where S(T) approaches S as a limit. In practical terms, finding the area of intersection of two triangles a bit tricky, so S(T, l) would probably have a complicated formula and not be differentiable. So unless there is some simple way of finding l for a given T, finding S(T) for a given T would involve some kind of optimization algorithm. On top of that, you want to minimize over T, so it sounds like a difficult problem. Not that it couldn't be done with some effort and a computer. Maybe a good first step would be to find a better lower bound for S than 0.--RDBury (talk) 14:36, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
OP here, thank you. That's exactly what I meant. Area(T∩Tl)/Area(T). The definition of what Triangles could be chosen from is because a triangle have the same S(T) even after both translation and expansion/contraction. For starters, (to see if this can be attacked reasonably), how would S(T) be calculated for a 3,4,5 right triangle?Naraht (talk) 18:08, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
We can define a unique placement for each triangle; OP presented one attemp, here is another one: let a ≥ b ≥ c denote the triangle's sides lengths; place vertex C in (0,0), B in positive X axis; then A is in a blue area bounded by the X axis, a x=a/2 line and the circle arc.
Seeking asymmetric triangle 1.png
If we want the reflected triangle to overlap the original one, the reflection axis must intersect the triangle. A triangle is a convex figure, so the reflection axis has to meet the triangle's edge at two different points. We can define a uniform coordinate along the triangle circumference, so that each axis is described with two real numbers – coordinates of intersection points. Then the common area is a {\Bbb R}^2\to \Bbb R function, continuous and piece-wise differentiable (the domain pieces will depend on vertices of Tl passing the T edges as l changes). However the number of pieces and their boundaries may depend on a:b:c ratios and it may be difficult to give a general algebraic description. --CiaPan (talk) 19:22, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
My understanding of the problem:
  • for any triangle t with fixed area and arbitrarily chosen reflection axis L, let t(L) be an image of t in the reflection;
  • let A(t,L) be an area of the intersection t\cap t(L), and A(t) be a maximum possible area: A(t)=\max_L\{ A(t,L)\}; then:
  • what triangle t minimizes A(t)?
Am I right? Is that what you mean? --CiaPan (talk) 18:05, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
More or less, I was using two fixed points to try to cut down on the fact that similar triangles would have the same answer, but using fixed area works as well. (Rotations also give the same answer).Naraht (talk) 18:13, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Here is a partial result: For any triangle T there is a line l so that if Tl is the reflection of T through l then Area(T∩Tl)>Area(T)/φ, where φ is the golden ratio. Proof: Let the triangle have sides a, b, c with a≤b≤c. Then a+b>c. Suppose b/c ≥ a/b. Let A be the vertex opposite a and let l be the bisector of A. Then both T and Tl contain the the isosceles triangle with vertex A and equal sides b. The area of this triangle is b2/2 sin A, so Area(T∩Tl)/Area(T) ≥ (b2/2 sin A)/bc/2 sin A = b/c. Now c/b-1 = (c-b)/b < a/b ≤ b/c. Putting x = c/b we get x>0 and x-1 < 1/x, so x2-x-1 < 0 and x < φ. ∴b/c > 1/φ. Now suppose b/c ≤ a/b. Let C be the vertex opposite c and let l be the bisector of C. As before, both T and Tl contain the the isosceles triangle with vertex V and sides a. Computing area as before, Area(T∩Tl)/Area(T) ≥ a/b. Now b/(a+b) < b/c ≤ a/b, a/b+1 = (a+b)/b > b/a. Putting y = b/a we get 1/x+1 > x, x>0, so x2-x-1<0 and x<φ. ∴a/b > 1/φ.
Judging from the constructions here it seems to me that attention should be focused on long thin triangles where the ratio of the shorter sides is around φ.--RDBury (talk) 08:06, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

July 1[edit]

Tennis problem[edit]

In tennis, players have a "first serve" action, which is faster and more difficult for the opponent to return but more likely to go "out", and a "second serve" action, which is slower and easier to return but more likely to be "in". A player's statistics include percentages of first and second serves "in" (call these respectively p1 and p2), and percentages of points won on first and second serves that are "in" (call these respectively w1 and w2). For example, if p1 = 0.6 and w1 = 0.8, it means that the player hits 60% of his or her first serves "in", and of the 60% that are "in", 80% result in the server winning the point.

In order for the p's and w's to "make sense", the overall probability of winning a point using a "first serve" action followed (if necessary) by a "second serve" action must be greater than the probability using any other combination of "first serve" and "second serve" actions (otherwise the player would be more successful using that other combination). In other words:

p1*w1 + (1 - p1)*p2*w2 > p1*w1 + (1 - p1)*p1*w1
p1*w1 + (1 - p1)*p2*w2 > p2*w2 + (1 - p2)*p1*w1
p1*w1 + (1 - p1)*p2*w2 > p2*w2 + (1 - p2)*p2*w2

I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that this is equivalent to

p2*w2 - p1*w1 > 0
p2*w2 - p1*w1 < p2*w2*(p2 - p1)

While the interpretation of the first of these conditions is straightforward (total probability of winning point on a second serve must be greater than total probability of winning on a first serve), I cannot formulate an interpretation of the second one. Can anyone see how to describe or interpret the second condition in a way that can be more easily visualised? (talk) 17:34, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

The left-hand side is the marginal increase in winning on a second serve, compared to a first serve. The right hand side is the probability of winning on a second serve, times the marginal increase in the probability that the second serve is in:
dW2 < Prob(W2)*dp2
I believe this constrains the largest possible increase in winning on a second serve to a function of how much more likely your second serve is to actually be in. You can also divide both sides by p2*w2 and get:
1 - (Prob(W1) / Prob(W2) < dp2
So that 1 minus the ratio of the winning probabilities on first and second serve (which is less than one, from the first constraint) is less than the marginal probability of getting your second serve first in, compared to the first serve.

I don't think this quite gets you there, but hopefully it helps. OldTimeNESter (talk) 18:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

July 3[edit]

Does mathematics invent or discover?[edit]

When something new appears in math, is it a discovery or an invention?--Yppieyei (talk) 13:55, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:56, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Some of each. There are basic laws of nature, like the value of pi. Those they discover. But there are also mathematical conventions, like there being 360 degrees in a circle, which mathematicians invent. (You can tell degrees are an invention because there are alternatives, like gradients and radians. You could use different approximations of pi, such as 3.14, depending on the accuracy required, but you can't just decide to use a completely different value, like 10, if you want to get correct answers.) StuRat (talk) 14:34, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
(ec) @Stu, the angle unit is a Gradian, not Gradient (although the gradient may be expressed in gradians, which in turn proves they are different notions). :) --CiaPan (talk) 15:22, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. I guess I misheard it, and it's only listed as "GRAD" on calculators, which doesn't help to clarify it. StuRat (talk) 15:33, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
See Philosophy of mathematics, particularly §Mathematical realism and §Mathematical anti-realism. -- ToE 15:18, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
...and for an extreme version of mathematical realism see Max Tegmark's mathematical universe hypothesis, which asserts that every conceivable mathematical object physically exists somewhere in some universe, and they are all that exists. Gandalf61 (talk) 15:49, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Quite extreme indeed. I'd like to see the number 2. I can see two apples, and I can count to two, but the positing the physicality of the abstract concept is a bit much for me. I assume he has never produced such a number for us to consider... SemanticMantis (talk) 17:27, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Tell me what the difference between invention and discovery is and I might have a chance at distinguishing between them. Dmcq (talk) 16:26, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
We have articles at invention and Discovery_(observation) that explain the common distinction. Usually we'd say something like the Nucleic_acid_double_helix was discovered, while the cotton gin was invented. It would be weird and basically incorrect to swap the terms in that case. Math is of course much murkier (and this question is indeed perennial), but OP has plenty of reading links above if they are interested. Some math examples that might be tolerable to many mathematicians - the infinitude of primes is better described as being discovered, while the Markov_chain_Monte_Carlo methods can be described as being invented (or not - please let's not bicker about my examples too much - I'm not making any bold categorical assertions about philosophy of math, just trying to demonstrate that in some cases both terms can be reasonably used in math). SemanticMantis (talk) 16:56, 3 July 2015 (UTC)


June 28[edit]

Question about Supreme Court justices strategically retiring so as to influence who their successor will be[edit]

My understanding is that a justice will only retire when the "right" President is in office, so that that President will replace the retiring justice with one whose ideology supports that of the President (in other words, along party lines or conservative/liberal). So, is this basically an "unwritten rule"? Or just a "professional courtesy"? Or is the driving force that the departing justice wants to be replaced with someone that thinks (votes) like him? I'd like to think that Supreme Court justices focus more on the law than on politics. But, that is probably very naive. Does anyone know? Also, when was the last time (in modern days) that a justice departed when the appointing President was of the opposite party/ideology? I am referring to the Supreme Court of the USA. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 02:01, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

I am also referring to a voluntary departure (i.e., retirement) as opposed to involuntary ones (e.g., death, disability, illness, impeachment, etc.). Although, for informational purposes, I'd like to know those from the latter category (i.e., involuntary departures) as well. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 02:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
David Souter was a Republican appointee (George H. W. Bush), who retired during a Democratic presidency (2009 Obama, who appointed Sonia Sotomayor to replace him), though historically Souter tended to vote with the "liberal" judges. John Paul Stevens was a Republican nominee also (Gerald Ford), who was replaced during 2010, so also an Obama appointee (Elena Kagan this time). Stevens, though, despite being a Republican appointee, was also considered a "liberal" justice. Likewise, Harry Blackmun, a Nixon appointee was replaced by Clinton appointee Stephen Breyer, though again, Blackmun is considered a liberal justice historically. Looking back, the last "liberal" justice replaced by a "conservative" was when Thurgood Marshall (LBJ Appointee) was replaced by Clarence Thomas (GHW Bush nominee) in 1991. The last "conservative" justice replaced by a "liberal" could possibly have been when Lewis F. Powell, Jr. was replaced by Anthony Kennedy in 1987, though both men were more "middle of the road" swing votes, with Powell leaning slightly more to the right, and Kennedy slightly more to the left. --Jayron32 02:21, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Note that while retiring at such times may be a goal, there are practical matters that often interfere with that goal. One rarely knows years in advance when one will need to retire, and one also rarely knows years in advance who the future Presidents are likely to be. Considering that one party can hold the presidency for a decade or more, like the FDR/Harry Truman period of 20 years, or the Reagan/George H W Bush period of 12 years, a Supreme Court Justice would have to know that in advance and be willing to retire far earlier than they would otherwise choose, to accomplish that goal. StuRat (talk) 20:37, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I think I'd take exception to that. One: Supreme Court justices are not really like "normal people" with a "normal job" (for lack of better words). I doubt they are "worried" about their financial futures. For many of them, they can retire at any moment. But, for various reasons, they seem to "hold on" as long as possible. Two: What I was referring to is a scenario when the justice knows that the current President's term will end, and might want to retire before the "next" President enters office, just to "be safe" and "guarantee" the ideology of the successor. So, for example, we all know with certainty when Obama will leave office. So, a justice might worry that the next president might be a Republican, so he will want to retire now, while a Democrat is still in office (i.e., before he leaves). That sort of thing. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:41, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
You misunderstood me. When I said they will eventually need to retire I was referring to their health. I wasn't talking about financial matters at all. And as for retiring now, Republicans might just "run out the clock" by refusing to approve any replacement, in the hopes of getting a Republican President next. With that in mind, not only would a Supreme need to retire during a particular President's term, but early in it. I don't think Republicans could have blocked all nominees for 8 years without creating a public uproar. StuRat (talk) 16:14, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
True. And even that assumes that there is no "ninth year" (the incoming President after eight years is also another Democrat, elected when the current Democrat leaves office). Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:45, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:44, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Can a Supreme Court justice recuse himself from a case for no reason?[edit]

I assume that when there is some conflict of interest (in a legal case), a Supreme Court justice recuses himself from that case, either because he must (i.e., it is required) or because he feels it is the "right"/ethical thing to do (even if not required). My question is: Can a Supreme Court justice recuse himself from a case just because he "feels like it" (with no particular reason)? I am thinking, for example, of such scenarios (if, hypothetically, I were on the Supreme Court). (A) I might be terribly conflicted about a case (say, abortion or death penalty) or "on the fence". And I'd just rather not commit to voting one way or another. (B) To play a "numbers game". I know that the other justices will vote 4-4 and I don't want to break the tie (or some such numbers games). Can they do this? I am referring to the Supreme Court of the USA. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 02:19, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

It's fairly rare, but I haven't been able to find a reason why not. In practice, you may be assuming that justices are chosen simply for their legal minds, but the reality is that justices are chosen not just for their legal acumen (Cl*r**ce Th***s, for example), but also for their character. The job requires you not to sit on the fence: if you don't have the courage to judge, you shouldn't take the job. RomanSpa (talk) 07:59, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. Yes, but that goes to my Scenario "A", not to my Scenario "B". And Scenario "B" is the one I would have assumed would more frequently arise. Yes, justices are chosen for legal acumen and character, etc. But certainly the number one factor is politics. No? Which is why my Scenario "B" discusses the justices engaging in "numbers games". Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:50, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
In practice, the Justices are their own arbiters in whether they should recuse themselves or not, and they don't really have to publicly reveal the reason. However, I'm having difficulty in trying to figure out how those two scenarios that you mentioned would be generally beneficial. A Justice would normally have to recuse before oral arguments, and that runs the risk of either (A) a point raised during oral arguments that changes the minds of one or more of the Justices, thus swinging a presumed 4-4 tie to one way or the other. Or (B) minds are changed during internal deliberations. A perfect example is explained on National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius#Speculation over Roberts' vote, where there were reports that Justice Roberts changed his opinion. Also note that in that case, the Justices became fragmented on many of the issues that were raised: Roberts was the only one who supported the opinion of the court in full. Everybody else either concurred in part and dissented in part (Ginsburg, Sotomayor, Breyer, and Kagan), or dissented in full (Scalia, Kennedy, Thomas, and Alito). I doubt a Justice would want to risk being silent on a case that ends up being more complex than it originally was presumed to be, or results in a majority opinion that he or she may not agree in full. Zzyzx11 (talk) 08:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
OK, you make some valid points. However, they are premised on your statement that "a Justice would normally have to recuse before oral arguments". Says who? You yourself just stated that they are their own arbiters (and, hence, can recuse whenever they feel appropriate). For example, perhaps a conflict becomes known after oral arguments, not before. (Who knows?) So, I guess I could also imagine a recusal after oral argument. No? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:56, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:45, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Do people change their minds?[edit]

I've just watched a debate on a Biblical (fairly general) topic between Bart D. Ehrman and Craig A. Evans. Such debates between competent scholars are great fun for people who just want to learn stuff, or like to watch pro wrestling. But my impression is that they are useless for actually changing people's minds. But is there any scientific data to support that impression (or the reverse)? Contact Basemetal here 13:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

It depends on what they are changing their minds about. Small issues are simply but questioning fundamental beliefs can cause so much cognitive dissonance that some individuals can't. Some times drugs like Ketamine, Psilocybin, LSD, etc., can help people accept come to terms with their own mortality when faced with terminal cancer etc., by dampening down the unpleasant feelings of cognitive dissonance enough to shift their view point to one of accepting reality. That has been researched a little but is held back by the war on drugs legalization. --Aspro (talk) 14:03, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Is the resistance to facing one's mortality an instance of cognitive dissonance? I don't think so. Except in the suicidal, every thought one holds is at odds with conceptualizing one's death. Cognitive dissonance involves different mindsets within those thoughts that are generally life affirming. Bus stop (talk) 11:50, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I question whether reliance on illegal drugs is a valid way to impose "changing one's mind". But it's true that personal traumas, "seeing the light", can radically change one's perspective. Jim Brady would be a good example. Lee Atwater would be another. I can also think of various public figures who were lifelong smokers and took to the airwaves to rail against smoking, including William Tallman, Yul Brynner, and Morton Downey Jr. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:25, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
How does the current legality of a drug effect it its medial efficaciousness? Remember, these drugs are still legal in many countries. Also, they don't impose a change of mind. Rather they free the person from the pain of cognitive dissonance so they can reconsider and make up they own mind based on the realty confronting them. The alternative is denial and the emotional pain that follows from that.--Aspro (talk) 19:17, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
It sounds like a brainwashing technique. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:31, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
"Seeing the light" is not the same as changing one's mind based on being exposed to new arguments or new data. If that's the only way human beings can change their minds then it's pretty sad (but it might be true). Of course the question of changing one's mind is connected to the question of how one forms an opinion in the first place. That also seems to be a less than rational process. I'm interested in scientific data regarding both those questions if they do exist. Contact Basemetal here 19:03, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Aspro's comments which imply a link between brain chemistry and the capacity of changing one's mind make me think of a related question: if modifying the chemistry of the brain through drugs can make people more open to changing their minds, is there the possibility that even without the use of drugs some people are innately more or less capable of either overcoming or simply not experiencing cognitive dissonance or not experiencing cognitive dissonance to the same extent? If humans have the capacity of overcoming cognitive dissonance or not experiencing it in varying measures (by that I mean to an extent that varies among individuals, again: without any use of drugs), would such a psychological trait be favored or disfavored by evolution? Any data or theory on that? Contact Basemetal here 21:21, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
I used to think that people could change their minds, now I'm sure that they can't. DuncanHill (talk) 15:50, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
I think it rare for someone to have a sudden change of opinion based on one single televised debate (a single debate tends to simply reinforce opinions already held). On-going debate and discussion, on the other hand, might well end up with people slowly changing their minds. I think the societal change of opinion (at least in the US) on the issue of Gay Marriage is a good example of this... ten years ago, the majority of Americans were against it (even Obama)... today, American society seems to have changed it's minds and the majority supports it. That was not the result of one debate, but of multiple debates and discussions held over many many years. One debate might help someone to didn't have a firm opinion to form one, but it is unlikely to cause sudden shifts of opinion... that takes much longer. Blueboar (talk) 16:09, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, "marginal change of mind" while not very noticeable on a daily basis can, in the long run, when it always happens in the same direction, result in big societal changes. When change is so slow one must also consider demographic change, in other words that it's not so much individuals that changed their minds but that the proportions of people holding one opinion or another changed as a result of demographic change. That is of course connected to the question how one forms an opinion, why newer generations form opinions that are different from the previous ones. Big questions, hunh? That's why I was merely asking for scientific studies of these questions. I was of course not expecting that they would be settled here at the RD. Contact Basemetal here 19:03, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Interesting post. I had always wondered if there was a "name" for this. I just never bothered to post my question. Is there some name (in science, psychology, sociology, whatever) for the notion that when we hear an argument/debate, we only draw from it the points that confirm our original belief, and we really don't "hear" or "listen to" the points that go against our original belief? In other words, we (humans, in general) usually listen to the argument/debate with a closed mind, not an open mind. And we usually are trying to gather more "ammunition" to bolster what we already believe, as opposed to being open to listening to the other side and perhaps changing our minds about the issue at hand. I found a good article about this. I will see if I can find the link. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:51, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
The good article that I recently read was about how people feel about the death penalty. I believe it came out about the time that the Boston Bomber trial reignited debate about the death penalty. The article basically said that we believe what we want to believe, and basically no one can change our mind, no matter what arguments/evidence they put forth. On such important matters as the death penalty, abortion, euthanasia, etc. I did a Google search to see if I could find that article again. But using all the relevant search words (like "death penalty", etc.) came up with an enormous amount of "hits". So, I cannot weed through them all to try to find that article. Does anyone know the article I am referring to? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:00, 28 June 2015 (UTC) (talk) 11:35, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Note that confirmation bias does have limits. For example, if a Holocaust denier was given a tour of a death camp while the bodies were fresh, he might have been convinced, but less so when just looking at pictures, where he could argue they were all faked. StuRat (talk) 12:26, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
There's also cherry picking (fallacy), when only using those facts which support your view in an argument with others. Of course, if trying to win a debate, that's exactly what you want to do. Not so when trying to determine the facts of a case. (Unfortunately, court cases really should try to determine the facts of the case, but the adversarial process ensures that each side cherry picks their own facts.) StuRat (talk) 12:21, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Yes, people often change their minds.
.... Wait, I've had a rethink. No, they don't change their minds.
.... Wait .... -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:14, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

To me it seems that in both formal and informal learning people are changing their minds all the time. They may keep some fixed points, but within those there is a lot that can change. After reading just one book people say things like "that's put a new perspective on it for me", or "I see it in a different light now", "I've got a more nuanced view", "I hadn't realised", "I've learnt a lot", "it's clarified a lot of things for me", etc. See Amazon book reviews for these phrases and many more. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:37, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

"When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?" John Maynard Keynes. Widneymanor (talk) 07:09, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Is Ed Leslie a person? Because the seven hundredth of his thousand gimmicks (give or take) was simply a guy with black and white facepaint who said "Yes! No! Yes! No!" That was the entire deal. Called "The Zodiac", for reasons that probably only made sense for fifteen minutes. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:08, June 29, 2015 (UTC)

This is a really interesting debate. Is there a reliably sourced list of clerics of various faiths who changed faith (or dropped faith altogether), absent of persecution? --Dweller (talk) 12:12, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I recall something Garrison Keillor once said (very likely quoting someone else), that men are well-known for making a bad decision and then "sticking with it." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:16, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I see you are looking for science refs. Here's some: This book looks really good for a recent overview [17]. This one is specifically about media influence [18]. This one takes a more cognitive science perspective [19]. Some relevant WP articles: persuasion, attitude change, elaboration likelihood. Finally, specific to debate - here's one on various features of rhetoric and effects on persuasion [20], here's one on message order that also pertains to debate [21]. Here's a specific one analyzing impact of the Bush-Gore debates [22] Plenty of further fodder on google scholar. My understanding is that often viewing a debate will serve to just reinforce one's prior attitude. However, real attitude change is possible. Beyond that I recommend reading the literature for more nuanced findings and discussion. Search various combinations of /persuasion attitude change debate message effect/ . SemanticMantis (talk) 15:46, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes. Thanks. I can see you Googled "persuasion change mind". You used Google better than me. I had Googled "changing people's minds" which unfortunately returned a lot of stuff about how to change people's minds. Googling "changing one's mind" returned at the top stuff about changing your own brain. However I got this. It's more opinion than scientific data but the paper does quote some statistics. Thanks again. Contact Basemetal here 16:46, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Glad those help. I've found it's useful to think of google and it's related services as a highly literate idiot - use key terms, ideally the ones used by science, but don't ever conjugate or decline words unless that's specifically what you're looking for :) SemanticMantis (talk) 17:28, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I just wanted to toss in a mention of Intelligence Squared, a debate program I've recently heard a few times on an American public radio station (and which I understand originated in the UK), which is based on changing people's minds over the course of a single debate. An audience poll is conducted on the day's topic prior to the debate, then another poll is conducted after, with the team who has gained the most percentage points for their side of the argument being declared "the winner". --LarryMac | Talk 18:35, 29 June 2015 (UTC)


Does the hamlet of Joimpy in Saint-Léger-des-Aubées still exist?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:31, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

A hamlet named Goimpy exists.[23] I don't know if it's the same place. Nanonic (talk) 19:40, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
[ec] I'm fairly sure it is, Saint-Léger-des-Aubées is the nearest place that has an article on :fr. Tevildo (talk) 19:46, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Of course the presence of a place on Google Maps or any other map is not actual proof that it exists. Maps may contain errors, even deliberate errors on occasion. But if you check Google's Street View imagery at the edge of the place, you will see a sign reading "GOIMPY (Cne de St LÉGER des AUBÉES)", and I call that pretty definitive. -- (talk) 21:33, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

June 29[edit]

music intervals[edit]

moved to Wikipedia:Reference desk/Entertainment#music intervals96.52.0.249 (talk) 13:48, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Judaism and history[edit]

I know that Christians believe that Jesus actually resurrected himself as a historical fact and that Muslims believe that Muhammad actually ascended to heaven on the dome of the rock as a historical fact. Is there any equivalence in Judaism? Are there any things in Judaism that Jews may believe to be historical fact? (talk) 14:10, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Lack of universal acceptance in Jewish theology mirrors the fabulously messy tangle of blurs of white, grey and black that is Jewish law. But a good place to start is here. --Dweller (talk) 14:21, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for providing the links. (talk) 14:47, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
The Jewish religion's founding narrative, which by Divine commandment is recited annually at Passover during the ceremonial seder meal, is written in the Torah, the first five books of the Old Testament dubbed the "Five Books of Moses." The narrative features the events surrounding the patriarch Jacob and sons, notably Joseph, in the Egyptian Land of Goshen, the Hebrews' captivity in Egypt, their liberation through the efforts of Moses, their flight from Egypt ("The Exodus") including the parting of the Red Sea, Moses receiving the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai and the episode of the Golden Calf, the forty years' wandering in the desert, and to the Promised Land of Canaan. Check these internal links to read about the historicity of these events. -- Deborahjay (talk) 06:07, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Plus, if you're looking for something analogous to Jesus' resurrection or Muhammad's ascenscion, there's Elijah, who didn't die, but was taken up to heaven in a whirlwind accompanied by a fiery chariot, and is prophesied to return. --Nicknack009 (talk) 07:43, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
And also Enoch, the Enoch (ancestor of Noah) of the Hebrew Bible. In the words of the King James Bible (which I love for its Early Modern English prose, but is rejected as a translation by mainstream Bible scholars) "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."
--Shirt58 (talk) 11:02, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Just bear in mind that "Jews" are not a homogenous group. Two Jews, three opinions is the old joke and it's well founded. As such pretty much anything that may fall into "things in Judaism that Jews may believe to be historical fact" would also fall into "things in Judaism that Jews may believe to be fiction".

You could narrow the request by asking about traditional Orthodox Judaism, but even within those bounds there's still a multiplicity of viewpoints on, for example, the historicity of much of Midrash and even books of the Tnakh. One famous example: see Job_(biblical_figure)#Job_in_Judaism for the arguments over whether the book of Job is regarded a true story or just a story.

That said, Deborah is right, that much of Tnakh is regarded by Orthodoxy as fact and that absolutely includes the Exodus narrative. --Dweller (talk) 08:51, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

order of Southern Baptist liturgy[edit]

Do Southern Baptist liturgies have any order? So, I visited a Southern Baptist church last weekend. It seemed that the first part of the worship service was a hymn, except the fact that there was no congregational singing. It was more like a theatrical display of the hymn, performed by children, at the front of the room on a stage-like thing. Then, there was a very long sermon with citations from the Bible, instead of reading an excerpt from the holy scriptures and then interpreting it to the congregation. The only thing that the congregation said was "Amen", but it was very sporadic and non-collective. Near the end, there was another hymn, but this time some congregants thought it was over and left! Apparently, there was no communion. What did I just see? Why was the sermon so long? Why were there no Bible readings before the sermon? What happened to the Eucharist? Do Southern Baptists ever take communion? And exactly where do they take communion? (talk) 14:37, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

For a partial answer to your questions, see Eucharist#Protestant: "It is rare to find a Baptist church where The Lord's Supper is observed every Sunday; most observe monthly or quarterly, with some holding Communion only during a designated Communion service or following a worship service." Gandalf61 (talk) 14:55, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Oh. So, does that mean Southern Baptists hold Communion during a designated Communion service or following a worship service? Either way, why do Protestants separate Communion from the actual worship service instead of holding Communion within the worship service? How is the Communion service different from the worship service in terms of structure? Is there a reason behind the sparing Communion services? (talk) 15:02, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Most of the protestant churches used rejection of transubstantiation as one of their bickering points with the Catholic church, and some took it further and argued that it shouldn't be part of worship. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:13, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Baptists in general are supposed to be independent, and although the Southern Baptist Convention doesn't mind yanking funding from seminaries based on what they teach ("Arminianism? No funding for you!"), they still don't enforce any particular order. Baptist churches do tend to be heavier on the sermon than other parts, in part because of Evangelicalism, the Great Awakenings, and Revival meetings. If they have a good minister of music (...or just an enthusiastic one), there may be more music than some other churches.
Despite being allowed to believe in whatever Eucharistic theology a member can reconcile with the Bible and their own reasoning, most just settle for memorialism and many will actively reject transubstantiation out of some faint memory that we're supposed to be protesting something (...or just straight up sectarianism). Some Baptist churches have "the Lord's Supper" (i.e. communion) every week, but most have it on special occasions. It really varies from each congregation to congregation. How communion is done also varies from church to church. The one I grew up in had trays of wafers and small cups of grape juice passed down each row by a pair of ushers. The last one I attended had everyone come up to the alter, tear off a piece of bread, and dip it in a cup of grape juice. There are enough Baptists who are teetotalers for there to be a stereotype that we're all teetotalers (even though it's on an individual basis), so if you ever find one that uses wine, please let me know so I can move there.
This is only dealing with mainline and evangelical Baptists. There are some hardcore independent Baptist churches that... well... you'll know them when you see them. (If the church building doubles as a fallout shelter, or there are no minorities, or the congregation keeps referring to "the compound," you've probably found one). I've only passed by those and have not attended their services.
In short: Baptists are sort of ecumenical anarchists. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:13, 29 June 2015 (UTC), you sound like you're from a more thoroughly liturgical church, perhaps Catholic or Anglican or high Lutheran. You have to begin by noting that most Baptists reject the term "liturgy", associating it with missals and pre-determined schedules and not realising that any order of service (including the traditional way of worship in a Baptist church) is a kind of liturgy. I've never heard of churches that celebrate the Lord's Supper outside of a worship service, so the fact that some do is probably as surprising to me as to you. We Protestants have generally separated the sacraments from normal worship services, and when the sacraments are celebrated, it's with special other elements, perhaps a special sermon or even an earlier start time to accommodate the extra elements. [Note that there's an important exception: many or most Restoration Movement churches, e.g. "Church of Christ", celebrate the Lord's Supper weekly.] I don't know why Baptists may celebrate the Lord's Supper just a few times per year, but I can guess: Baptists (and the Presbyterians of whom I am one) came out of the context of the Act of Uniformity 1662 (England) and corresponding legislation in Scotland, by which all clergy rejecting episcopal church government (and at least in England, Anglicanism in general) were forced out of their pulpits; comparatively few dared to reject it (after all, this was your and your family's life), leaving dissenters largely without clergy, so even if every minister officiated at the Lord's Supper every week, many congregations could only celebrate it a few times per year because the minister would only visit a few times per year. Combine this with the idea that preaching, not the sacraments, was central to the worship service, and mix it with later regard for the traditions of the elders (all the while rejecting the Catholic dependence on tradition!), and you just celebrate the sacraments rarely because that's what Grandpa's church (and Grandpa's grandpa's church) did. And re: Ian's last comment, see A little stone pretended to be out of the mountain for an earlier work taking this position (but it will be hard to read, due to the seventeenth-century orthography); congregationalism and independency naturally lead to ecumenical anarchy. Nyttend (talk) 14:46, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

We don't seem to have an article on Extempore prayer (the use of prayers composed to suit the moment, rather than written liturgy), but see A Word About Written Prayers. Alansplodge (talk) 10:26, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Greek businesses opening overseas bank accounts[edit]

Just watched the news about capital controls in Greece. I was wondering, could a tourist business that mostly sells to foreigners, but is legally based in Greece (a small hotel, for example), realistically arrange a bank account in a more stable country and get all its customers to pay for bookings there? With something like Paypal for card payments. Meaning they would still have hard currency if this doesn't get sorted out. Basically how hard is it to open foreign accounts for a smallish business, and would they get away with it re the Greek government? (talk) 15:10, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

It would be wise for the Greek government to encourage this, as tourism dollars are badly needed (the government would still get a share via taxes, assuming they manage to collect them). However, riots may discourage tourism. StuRat (talk) 20:46, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
There is some expense and trouble involved. It might be beyond the resources of a small hotel. See this article on the subject. Basically, the hotel would have to pay either high fees to open and maintain a "high-risk merchant account" in a country outside Greece, or the hotel would have to register as a business (with all of the fees involved) in a different country and then open a domestic merchant bank account in that country. In either case, a credit check would be involved (since the merchant would be expected to face some liability for chargeback), and at the moment, I doubt that most banks would consider any Greek business a good credit risk. Marco polo (talk) 15:19, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
They might want to pick an "iffy" nation with lax banking laws. StuRat (talk) 01:22, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Greek referendum documents[edit]

A referendum will take place in Greece next Sunday. The question will be: “Do you agree with or reject the proposal of the European Commission, the International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank, consisting of two documents, entitled Reforms for the completion of the Current Program and Beyond and Preliminary Debt sustainability analysis?”. My question is: is it possible to find and read the text of these two documents online?--The Theosophist (talk) 21:30, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

The last draft of the creditors' proposals, which were being discussed with Greek delegates right up to the referendum announcement, has been published on the EU website. It's in the form of a list of things they want Greece to do (or perhaps more realistically start doing) before anything would be paid out. Presumably if the "memorandum" was resurrected it might be based on this. (talk) 22:05, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
The question of the referendum names two specific documents. I search for online editions of these.--The Theosophist (talk) 22:34, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I think these might be the two: [24] and [25] (they have the right titles, but I don't speak Greek). (talk) 00:37, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes, they are the ones. Thank you.--The Theosophist (talk) 11:26, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
You're welcome! (talk) 16:14, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

June 30[edit]

What happened to the US?[edit]

These things are totally forgotten, just like erased from history, very strange.

--Lexikon-Duff (talk) 02:21, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

They are both very much part of the US government:
1) Mergers of large companies are regularly reviewed, and often rejected, when they will lead to a lack of competition, or, in the case of media companies, a lack of independent voices.
2) The Social Security Administration is perhaps the most lasting effect of the New Deal. StuRat (talk) 02:33, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Also still very much part of history. Erased things don't have Wikipedia articles, let alone well-sourced ones. Do you mean erased from history class? If so, I don't know much about that (even if they're taught or not), but, in general, there aren't enough hours in the school day for most important events. Even American history is very long. Can't teach every kid every thing. Even Wikipedia can only try. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:47, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
Don't forget the FDIC! Neutralitytalk 04:31, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I believe that the uncovering of the 2015 FIFA corruption case was the result of the application US antitrust law. Alansplodge (talk) 08:49, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
And United States v. Microsoft Corp. was not so long ago either. It received a ton of media coverage. --Xuxl (talk) 09:42, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Also the more recent United States v. Apple Inc. which didn't perhaps receive quite so much, but still a fair amount. As Sturat has said, antitrust law also comes in to play with most major mergers. Even if it doesn't stop the merger or result in additional conditions, it's the reason (in particular the Clayton Act 1914 I think) why such mergers need approval. (Note also, the lack of rejection or additional conditions isn't an indication the law isn't doing anything, the companies themselves will consider such issues before proposing a merger so may not propose a merger unlikely to be successful or may have already agreed to do something to satisfy government concerns.) Of course in the modern world it usually isn't just US anti-trust law that comes in to play.

In the case of the New Deal, it's difficult to watch much Fox News, or read other US conservative news without seeing some discussion of how the New Deal destroyed America/prolonged the great depression and how Obama is doing the same thing in some way.

So as with many others, I don't understand the OPs question. I don't live in the US and was well aware of these probably since my mid teens. (Well at least US antitrust although that was difficult to ignore as this was the time of the MS case.)

Nil Einne (talk) 14:18, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

One date "they" don't tell you about is June 18, 1958. The day Homer J Simpson died. Note, students, the J stands for nothing. Even a Findagrave site search on Google for "homer j simpson" doesn't find him. But he was real, once. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:33, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
In other news, US Air Force Major General Chester E. McCarty (this guy) took three jackrabbits, two horned toads and an armadillo to Portland, Oregon. He returned to Waco, Texas with a porcupine and a beaver. Elsewhere, a bridge fell. How many fifth-graders know that? InedibleHulk (talk) 10:45, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
You mean, present or past fifth-graders? By the way, the zoo swap happened the day before the article is dated, that would be June the 17th. That would be a reason to desesperate, while in fact there are plenty of them if not just targeting the same Google research date. --Askedonty (talk) 12:26, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
In real time, a day before. But when reviewing history, perception is reality. Nobody knows the news till it's fit to print. Many things were in the zeitgeist that week, but in my eye, flying armadillos deserve the recognition as much as any southbound pachyderm. I'll bet no birth notice in any paper mentioned "Jello Biafra" was born. But he was real, later. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:42, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
Marty Haggard, a constant value following birth notices, whom we don't know what the tale would be if he'd decided exploring alternative realities, was born on the 18th, not the 17th: now him real right from the start, and at the same time, we are now reading the news only a long time after they have been pushed (or after he's been shot by a hitch-hicker, imagine that.) --Askedonty (talk) 23:37, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I saw this guy released an album and song called "The Bridge" 42 years after the other bridge released, tried to scrape some nutjob meaning from the lyrics, and wouldn't you know it? I knew the Internet would forget history, but to see lyrics disappear is more troubling than missing LOLcats. Guess I'll just have to chalk another one up to the Mothman instead. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:14, July 1, 2015 (UTC)
I could find the song on Youtube and I think '42' means only the guy was 42. If you're doing Christian simplicity music, the Bridge it's a bit one of the doctorates. Now you can still reason he chose the style deliberately. --Askedonty (talk) 03:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
same as happened to old-school Leftism in general. Got replaced by social justice warriordom and market fundamentalism. Also, stuff (at least electronics) actually getting cheaper (or becoming more advanced for the same price) thanks to China (which helps dull people's suspicion of cartel activity) Asmrulz (talk) 14:31, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't understand the question. These topics are covered in standard U.S. history texts used in U.S. schools today. Check any major text and you will find them. Marco polo (talk) 14:58, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Story checks out. At least for the New Deal. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:56, June 30, 2015 (UTC)

Merry Christmas![edit]

I'm pretending to be in Australia, where Christmas comes in early summer :-) Do we have any coverage of "Joseph dearest, Joseph mine"? I'm not finding much under that title, "Song of the crib", or "Josef, Lieber Josef Mein", but as with any obscure work translated from another language, I don't want to assume that these are the only names under which it might appear. Nyttend (talk) 14:50, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Christmas is always on December 25th, regardless of the hemisphere, right? I found this on Google. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:24, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
No, it isn't on 25 December in Russia or in Ethiopia. All together now, "Do they know it's Christmas time at all?". Itsmejudith (talk) 15:33, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Yea, in some Eastern European sects Christmas is in January, but that has nothing to do with which side of the equator you are on. The side of the equator inverts the seasons, but not when Christmas is. Therefore they have Christmas in summer south of the equator. That might seem strange to us in the Northern Hemisphere, but keep in mind that Bethlehem is close enough to the equator that it wouldn't be likely to have snow any time of the year, anyway, and that we really don't know when Jesus was actually born. StuRat (talk) 15:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Not entirely unheard of [26]. Mikenorton (talk) 14:22, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Some eastern churches, such as Russian Orthodox, still go by the Julian calendar rather than the Gregorian. So they still celebrate Christmas on December 25th, Julian, although it's into January, per the standard calendar. The civil calendar was changed to sync with the west, after the "October" (actually November) revolution which put Lenin in power. Lenin and his pals did a lot of bad things, but at least they made the civil calendar run on time. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:04, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
There is actually Christmas in July or alternatively Mid Winter Christmas (which isn't necessarily in July). That said, while I can't comment on the situation in Australia, I don't think it really gets much attention here in NZ except among various places looking for a way to make money (generally places associated with snow, and eateries). Actually I think Matariki probably gets more attention in recent times. Nil Einne (talk) 14:08, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
We have an article on the translator credited on the page you linked Percy Dearmer. He published three hymnbooks in his lifetime (1906, 1926 and 1928); two have online versions but I can't find this hymn in either of them. However if you can get the third; Oxford Book of Carols, it seems most likely.
(Nevertheless, I found at least one mention of this song title before any of those books were published: [27] (1898).)
Anyway, most useful information I found was in the German wikipedia article on the original hymn. [28] It says the tune goes back to a Latin one that we have an English article on Resonet in laudibus, which says the words have been credited, but far from definitively, to Johannes Galliculus (couple of references in that article). On the other hand, the German article says the words were likely by Monk of Salzburg.
The German article also says the song is attested in five medieval manuscripts, and links to one of them dated c. 1420 [29]. Another reference (Ludwig Erk, Franz Magnus Böhme (Hrsg.): Deutscher Liederhort. Band 3. Leipzig 1894, S. 643 f.) dates it to c. 1400 and there's an unreferenced claim that puts it in the mid-12th century as part of a Christmas play (no English article, but see [30]). (talk) 16:42, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

July 1[edit]

In the Horus article where is the section about Horemakhet and how does it related to the Great_Sphinx_of_Giza[edit]

Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Venustar84 (talkcontribs) 23:23, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

The sphinx one says "hor-em-akhet" means "Horus of the Horizon", and was another name for the kitty. The Horus article doesn't mention it, or if it does, it hides as well from me as you. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:38, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
Yes. Horemakhet was a form of Horus who represented the sun. He was one of several Egyptian sun gods, the best-known of which is Ra, who is very similar to Horemakhet, though not so much to other forms of Horus. There are no Egyptian texts that refer to the sphinx from around the time it was built, but in the New Kingdom, a thousand years later, it was called Horemakhet. Lions were symbols of the sun in ancient Egypt, and the sphinx is assumed to represent the king who built it (probably Khafre or perhaps Khufu) taking the form of a sun god like Ra or Horemakhet. The New Kingdom name for the sphinx therefore loosely fits with the meaning that its sculptors probably meant to convey. Here is an article with more details about the sphinx's meaning. A. Parrot (talk) 01:34, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Questions of the form "Why is XXX not in Wikipedia/this Wikipedia article?" (and the passive-aggressive variant "Where is XXX in this Wikipedia article?") almost always have one or both of the following answers:
  • Because nobody has written it yet: if you have reliable published sources, why don't you go ahead and put it in?
  • Because there aren't enough reliable published sources for it, so it can't be written. --ColinFine (talk) 12:06, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Les Chants de Maldoror public domain English translation[edit]

The title says it all: is there a public domain English translation of Les Chants de Maldoror (The Songs of Maldoror) by the Comte de Lautréamont?--The Theosophist (talk) 12:34, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

The article lists one published in 1924 - which will be public domain in the U.S. in 2019 (without further changes in the laws). Rmhermen (talk) 14:36, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Showing skin[edit]

Women's clothing in the west has developed so that more and more skin is shown, i.e. cleavage legs etc. How did this development occur? (talk) 13:58, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

History of Western Fashion is the general article, but all these are also relevant: mores, hemline, dress code, Shorts#Sociology, Neckline, Cleavage_(breasts), Buttock_cleavage. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:10, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Also Modesty has some nice historical context, both worldwide, and in western countries. These trends go in cycles. 10 years ago the young women on large university campuses in the USA were often exposing the tops of their butts - whale tail. Today, that is much less uncommon, but instead it seems ((WP:OR)) more acceptable to show expose a bit of the bottom of the buttocks - underbun (redlink, plenty of google hits. I'd think it's notable enough for an article if whale tail and buttock cleavage are, but that's another discussion). SemanticMantis (talk) 18:15, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Double negative alert: "less uncommon" = "more common". StuRat (talk) 01:11, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Oops, totally opposite meaning of that I intended. Corrected now, thanks, SemanticMantis (talk) 13:20, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Part of the trend may be due to women working in more fields today, some of which require less clothing, due to heat, or specific cases, like a lifeguard, who can't get dragged down due to the weight of heavy, wet clothes. However, working women in other fields may need less revealing clothes, like pants. But, once you establish that women could wear different clothes in different circumstances, personal preference starts to play into their selection, too.
Another factor may be that tans became fashionable for women, where previously pale white skin was desirable. However, more recently, the link of tans to wrinkles and skin cancer may reverse that trend, leading women to wear more clothes, at least outside. StuRat (talk) 01:16, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Also: "The West" is wide and contains cultural variances and differences. Latin culture, Anglo-Saxon culture, Nordic culture, Japanese culture, American culture, etc etc, tend to handle women's clothing fashion in various and different and opposite ways. Akseli9 (talk) 10:12, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

It's interesting to see what "fashion in -" articles we have. We have Fashion in the United States and Fashion in India but no Fashion in Japan or Fashion in France or Fashion in England. This situation probably reflects some of our bias in coverage. We do have Japanese street fashion. SemanticMantis (talk) 13:24, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

July 2[edit]

Ptolemaic numbers[edit]

I am looking for a table of Ptolemaic numbers and their modern counterparts (1, 2, etc). Not a system of planets or tides, just the actual physical numbers, 1-20 if possible. If you can find them please tell me what I should have entered into the Google search engine also! :) (talk) 00:18, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Just to clarify, are you looking for how the numbers 1-20 were written in an ancient language ? Ptolemy was Greco-Egyptian, in Alexandria while it was under Roman control, so do you want ancient Greek, ancient Egyptian, or Latin, from that period ? StuRat (talk) 01:06, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Our articles on the Almagest and Geography (Ptolemy) say that both were originally written in Greek, so presumably Greek numerals would be the form used. In fact, that last article has a map from the Geography which shows the use of Greek numerals. Interestingly, it's a decimal system, rather than being like Roman numerals. MChesterMC (talk) 08:16, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Terminations and buy-back[edit]

I've just learned Macy's ditched Donald Trump, as did NBC. The network will also no longer air the Miss USA and Miss Universe Pageants. (Trump still owns half of the Miss Universe Organization.) By any chance, will somebody hired by CBS, buy Trump's half, as well as the broadcast rights to both pageants?2604:2000:712C:2900:5090:B7FE:BF98:2807 (talk) 03:48, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

It's not the job of the Reference Desk to make predictions. -- (talk) 06:47, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Let me rephrase the question. Since Macy's and NBC ditched Donald Trump, does that also mean the Miss Universe Organization have done the same thing, as well?2604:2000:712C:2900:5090:B7FE:BF98:2807 (talk) 07:53, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Their statement (pdf press release available from does not say they have. (talk) 09:33, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
There still seems to be an open question of whether those entities had the legal right to do what they did, so even the stuff that's been done already, could eventually be nullified. Or not. So there's no way to predict. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:30, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Using that approach, we would be loath to report that anyone has ever been convicted of a crime, because there's always the possibility they could appeal, be successful, and become un-convicted. No, I think it's best to report what is, and let what may be may be and deal with it when and if it ever becomes is. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:00, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

At least one of the pageants has already been picked up by an independent cable network, which doesn't rule out their return to one of the "big 3" but probably makes it unlikely for the near future at least.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 01:19, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

India-Bangladesh border deal[edit]

Is there anywhere online that I can see a map showing the results of the recent border deal between India and Bangladesh? From what I can tell, Google Maps still displays the pre-deal situation. --Lazar Taxon (talk) 22:56, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

India–Bangladesh enclaves was on the front page here three weeks ago. μηδείς (talk) 00:10, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Okay, but that article only has maps showing the pre-deal situation. I'm asking if there are any maps showing the outcome of the deal. --Lazar Taxon (talk) 01:22, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
It's interesting that the bill itself [31] does not contain a map, though all the pieces of land are described very exactly. Anyway, a recent map *was* made, according to the bill: as determined through joint survey and fully depicted in the respective adversely possessed land area index map (APL map) finalised by the Land Records and Survey Departments of both the countries between December, 2010 and August, 2011. I can't find whether this map has been made public though - can anyone else? (talk) 03:14, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
This question would probably interest Wikipedia:WikiProject India/Members (especially User:Amitrc7th and User:Anuomkara and User:Copperchloride and User:Harsimaja and User:Kondi and User:LRBurdak and user:Ninney and User:Planemad and User:Vin09; also User:Amartyabag and User:Arijit109 and User:Tamravidhir). Also, it would probably interest Wikipedia:WikiProject Bangladesh/Members (especially User:Crtew and User:Freemesm).
Wavelength (talk) 02:50, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
This question would probably interest Wikipedia:WikiProject Geography/Project volunteers (especially User:Cooper-42 and User:Funandtrvl and User:Laurinavicius and User:Ridoco234). Also, it would probably interest Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries/Volunteers (especially User:Dwaipayanc and User:Funandtrvl and User:Kirananils and User:Naveenpf and User:The Way).
Wavelength (talk) 03:31, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
These links might be helpful: —>
Wavelength (talk) 03:44, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
You can ask a librarian at the Delhi Public Library (
Wavelength (talk) 04:42, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
According to this article: Bangladesh and India – Mapped out, the people in the enclaves will be given the choice to which 'side' they will be on, along with citizenship. So, the map wouldn't exist yet, and I don't know what timeline the people have been given to make their choices. Funandtrvl (talk) 15:05, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

July 3[edit]

Joseph Lane[edit]

Besides his pro-slavery views, why was Joseph Lane chosen as the Southern Democrats' vice-presidential candidate alongside John C. Breckinridge in 1860? Was their a strategy of using Lane's Western (Oregon) and Northern (Indiana) affiliations to curry votes in non-Southern states?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:01, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

That might be, but regarding the 1860 Baltimore convention however, things were not at all as much clear cut as they became at the time of Secession. Daniel S. Dickinson from New-York for example, gave his support to Breckinridge. --Askedonty (talk) 15:18, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Baikonur, Kazakhstan - status[edit]

What is the status of Baikonur? Is it Russian territory or Kazakhstani territory controlled by Russia. The article seems a bit confusing. Hack (talk) 07:12, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

According to this article in The Atlantic from June 2013 [32], The town exists in a strange state of political suspension. When the Cosmodrome was built, it was squarely in USSR territory. Today that land is Kazakhstan, and Russia rents the town from the Kazakh government for $115 million a year. (talk) 13:39, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Whiskey barrels on the American frontier[edit]

I'm in the middle of writing an expansion for the Yost Tavern stub, and according to this historical text, in 1809, the tavern's customers purchased more than fifty barrels of whiskey. Was "barrel" a standard size at the time (e.g. the 31 or 31.5 gallons of a fluid Barrel (unit)?), or does it simply mean that Mr Yost dispensed the contents of thirty-one whiskey casks? Perhaps there was a standardised size for taxation purposes, but Whiskey Rebellion tells me that the 1791 federal excise tax on spirits was repealed in 1801, so I can't rely on its definitions. Nyttend (talk) 17:57, 3 July 2015 (UTC)


June 27[edit]

John Money - pronounciation[edit]

Is there a new Zelander on board? How is the name of John Money pronounced? אילן שמעוני (talk) 10:42, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

According to this Horizon documentary (copyvio), it's prononced /ˈmʌn.i/ (as in cash money). Tevildo (talk) 11:01, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Cheers, mate. אילן שמעוני (talk) 12:06, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Ship's brig[edit]

I just learned that "brig", referring to the area on a ship where prisoners are kept, is considered an Americanism. What is it traditionally called in Britain? --Lazar Taxon (talk) 20:53, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

A British seaman's or marine's service record can be marked "CELLS" which means that the subject has been "Confined to ships' cells". [33] A plan of HMS Queen Elizabeth published in the Daily Mail shows "32: RN police office and cells". [34] Alansplodge (talk) 22:14, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
"The Naval Prisons Act of 1847, granted Commanding Officers the power of awarding a Summary Punishment by imprisonment, which could be "in any Place, Ship or Vessel, either afloat or on shore," appointed by the Admiralty for that purpose ; or in the absence of such facilities, in any public prison, which suggests that this may be the first official recognition of cells on board a ship." 19th Century Royal Navy. Alansplodge (talk) 22:31, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
The disambiguation page for brig explains that the US Navy formerly used two-masted brigs as prison ships, and the term has come, in the US, to refer to any naval prison facility. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:36, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Whereas the Royal Navy used sailing brigs to train boy entrants in the basics of seamanship, until the first years of the 20th century. [35] Alansplodge (talk) 18:23, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

June 28[edit]

Straw man[edit]

I have always been confused about the meaning of this term. Wikipedia says it refers to an "informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent", but here are two dictionary definitions that say something completely different:

a weak or imaginary argument or opponent that is set up to be easily defeated [36]
An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated. [37]

Which is correct? (talk) 02:15, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

They are all correct, as they are all saying the same thing. A "Straw man" means that you invent an argument that you propose your opponent is making (or which an imagined opponent makes) and then refute that argument instead of refuting the substance of the opposition. --Jayron32 02:43, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Further info:[38]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:10, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Often, a formal political argument begins with a brief summary of the opponent's argument. The straw man fallacy often begins with a radical oversimplification of the opponent's argument, reducing it to a caricature or a bumper sticker slogan, strippping away all subtlety and nuance. It is easy to mock and deride an oversimplification.
I am reminded of the burden on us as Wikipedia editors to do our best to summarize what the full range of reliable sources say about a topic. Any neutral editor, upon reading an article which over-emphasizes their own personal point of view, should be prepared to add balancing material, even if contrary to their own off-Wikipedia opinions. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
OK, I think I see what the problem is now. Suppose one person makes argument X, and other person makes argument Y against distorted argument X*, then the opening definition of the Wikipedia article makes it sounds as if "straw man" refers to Y, whereas actually (and according to the dictionary definitions) it refers to X*. (talk) 12:05, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
This might be useful.[39] Myrvin (talk) 13:58, 28 June 2015 (UTC) That's already cited in the article. Myrvin (talk) 14:00, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Or you might even consider this example where "straw man" is used to apply to a person, in this case Charles Lyell's characterisation of Humphry Davy as a geologist. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:13, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes. And there seems to be a legal term too: [40]. That's in strawperson. I also thought that there was a saying that it is not worth suing a straw man - meaning someone with no money. Ah! here he is [41]. Myrvin (talk) 10:27, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I think that one refutes a straw man argument by pointing out how that argument differs from one's own argument. Straw man arguments can also be inadvertent, in which case they might more properly be called misunderstandings, but once again, one must point out how that argument differs from one's own argument. But correct me if I am wrong about any of this. Bus stop (talk) 10:55, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I guess gender equality now requires us to always use "strawperson". Or is that just a dead heron? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:08, 29 June 2015 (UTC) sorry, but I really don't have "a dog in this fight."
My straw dog is deeply offensive since he or she learned to articulate expletives. Bus stop (talk) 11:34, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
You need to get the bloody thing genderized. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:17, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Subjunctive - ancient greek[edit]


I don't understand what is the purpose of the subs in

σωφρονέστατοι δὲ οἳ ἂν τάχιστα μεταγιγνώσκωσι

—Andoc. 2 6

- it is not use for a purpose clauses, fear or conditions. Someone has any idea? -- (talk) 10:15, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

June 29[edit]

Media use of the word "alleged" to describe suspected criminals when the crime is escaping from prison[edit]

Can someone please explain why the media are so conscientious and so careful to describe criminal defendants and criminal suspects as merely "alleged". (For example, the media will never say "He committed murder." They will say "He allegedly committed murder." or "The police authorities claim that he committed murder.") They (the media) are always couching their language in careful phrases. The media tries to be so careful, that they often go overboard with the use of the words "alleged" and "allegedly". I have a follow-up question, but I'd like to hear input on this question first. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:07, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Does it really need to be explained why the media doesn't assert that someone has committed a crime until they are convicted of it? What do you think libel laws are for? AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:12, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
There was a time when the media did exactly that - for example, to announce the arrest of "the killer", with no qualification. And if they got it wrong, it was very harmful to all. Nowadays, they do like Wikipedia does - attribute it to whoever said it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:35, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
A couple of sources: Am I protected if I use the word "alleged" in crime stories? and Newswriting for radio: The Basics: Charges and Allegations. The last sentence of the second source might be helpful: "Not only is it unethical to describe [someone not yet convicted of a crime] as, say, a "murderer" or "embezzler" without the qualification of words like "accused" and "alleged," but such descriptions could turn you into a defendant yourself -- for libel." - Cucumber Mike (talk) 08:08, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
What they should really be saying is "the alleged killer of the allegedly murdered person" - or something like that. Murder too is alleged before being proved. But that gets rather wordy. The media does talk about "alleged victims" and "alleged murder". Myrvin (talk) 09:55, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
The language gets somewhat confusing with examples like "an East Bexar County woman allegedly was shot and killed by her husband." I assume there is little doubt that she was shot and killed, the allegedly refers to the husband's guilt. Myrvin (talk) 10:04, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I think I occasionally see that someone has been charged with allegedly murdering someone. See the photo caption here [42]; and [43]. People are charged with murder, not alleged murder. Myrvin (talk) 10:10, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
You also get the papers saying that someone was allegedly charged with something.[44] [45]. That's the writers getting their alleged knickers in a twist. Myrvin (talk) 10:17, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Another approach is the use of what I think are called "scare quotes", for example "'Neighbour killed my dog', accuser alleges". (talk) 11:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
If you're actually quoting someone, it's not scare quotes. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:20, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Right. Scare quotes are the kind that mean "someone else calls it this, but I wouldn't normally use the word". For example: The "town" consisted of a few houses and one store. -- (talk) 21:25, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Or "city". Yes, although a usage like that is more funny than scary. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:54, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Still "scary", though. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:07, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
How so? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm fine with "alleged", when used correctly. What I don't like is when they say "he was proven guilty in a court of law". To me, that should be "found guilty", as what happens in a court in no way qualifies as "proof". StuRat (talk) 13:15, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I agree in general. But this is legal proof. I shall be more careful. Myrvin (talk) 13:29, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes, that term is a bad one, implying a level of certainty that just isn't possible in many cases. Maybe in a case where all parties agree on what happened, and they have film of it happening, and lots of other evidence, then it may approach actual proof, not just "legal proof". Otherwise, "legal finding" seems like a safer description. StuRat (talk) 20:59, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
"The state will prove..." But factually it's still best to say "found guilty" or "found not guilty". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:20, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I see that, when it's simple reportage, but also in Wikipedia discussions I see people quoting other editors and putting quotes round their actual words and then they get berated because the person quoted thinks it's done to belittle their comment and calls it "scare quotes". Also it sometimes seems to be done to indicate that the words are not to be taken in their normal sense. (talk) 15:32, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
That would be a not uncommon usage on Wikipedia talk pages, yes. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:29, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Follow up question[edit]

Thanks, all. As I indicated in my original question, I would be following up. So, we all pretty much agree that when the media is describing a criminal suspect or a criminal defendant, they (legally) have to use the word "alleged" (e.g., to prevent lawsuits of libel, slander, or defamation; and also as a matter of journalistic ethics). I assume we are all (generally) on the same page with that. So, here's my question. When those two guys in New York (allegedly?) escaped from prison, the media had no problem whatsoever saying that they escaped, calling them escapees, etc. They point blank said it, many times, with no concern for the word "alleged". They escaped (not allegedly escaped) from prison. They stole (not allegedly stole) items from those cottages. They burglarized (not allegedly burglarized) those cottages. Etc. Etc. Etc. So, why is that case any different? The men were accused of (not found guilty of) the crime of escaping from prison and the other crimes. They are "innocent until proven guilty" of those crimes, just as are all of the other (alleged) murderers, rapists, thieves, bank robbers, etc., of the world. No? I am quite curious about this. In particular, the crime of "escape from prison". Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:52, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Here is CNN's story about the escape and recapture.[46] Notice the fine line between reporting what are obvious facts (the escape and manhunt) vs. what is alleged and what is attributed to others. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:24, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
That's my point. Who is to say that the crime of escape is "obvious"? It's no more obvious than when a mass murderer is caught red-handed at the scene (like, for example, that James Eagan Holmes in the Aurora, Colorado, movie theater). It's not "obvious" that he committed mass murder? The media refers to him as "alleged". So, why are Matt and Sweat really any different? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 02:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Killing isn't always murder, and murder isn't always killing. There's self-defense, insanity, entrapment, hired guns, bunch of other stuff lawyers and juries need to consider before making it official. Prisons have well-defined borders and prisoners have well-defined sentences. Cross the line before the time expires, that's pretty much that.
On top of that, killing another person is some serious shit, relative to pretty much everything else. Always has been. The damage caused by painting someone as a murderer is severe, so a potential lawsuit will cost more, and the odds of getting it wrong are higher. Higer risk plus higher potential damages equals more precaution. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:23, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
This is purely academic, and I am playing the devil's advocate (for the most part). But, Sweat could say "I never wanted to escape. The other guy (Matt) held a gun to my head and forced me to help him with his plan under threat of death." (or whatever). Not likely, but also not impossible. Also, there are the other crimes I mentioned. They broke into the cabins. They stole supplies. Etc. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:09, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Also, the crime of "escape" is not as clear-cut as you may think. A defense could be duress, as I mentioned above ("I didn't want to escape, I was forced to.") Another defense could be "One of the guards told me that I could leave, so I left." Or whatever. My point is that the crime is still alleged. And it might not be as obvious as things seem on the surface. And, still, a crime being "obvious" still does not negate the fact that the person is innocent until proven guilty. As I said above: This is purely academic, and I am playing the devil's advocate (for the most part). But, I was still quite surprised that all of the media essentially dropped their typical "allegedly" business in this particular case. Seems odd to me. At least, odd enough that I posted this question. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:14, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
InedibleHulk, you stated: "On top of that, killing another person is some serious shit, relative to pretty much everything else. Always has been. The damage caused by painting someone as a murderer is severe, so a potential lawsuit will cost more, and the odds of getting it wrong are higher. Higer risk plus higher potential damages equals more precaution." Yes, of course. But, they (the media) also use "allegedly" for other lower offenses, also. Even if your crime is minor (i.e., petty burglary, petty larceny, shoplifting, etc.), the media will still report "allegedly". They don't reserve that for just murder or "big" offenses. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 06:18, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
It's no fun getting sued, for any amount. So yeah, you'll see some reporters playing it totally safe. But if you have a solid legal department and a hush budget, you may be willing to play a little looser. Throwing around "terrorist" seems fine, lately. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:10, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
They don't legally have to, it's just that not doing so leaves them vulnerable to legal action. The omission isn't a crime in itself, but something their editor may likely fire them for.
Something like escape is way more obvious than most crimes. Saying a prisoner who isn't in prison and wasn't released has escaped is virtually a sure bet, and it's only slander if it's untrue. Very low-risk. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:16, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
I don't want to re-type my comment above (about the crime being "obvious"). See my comment above, which is time-stamped 02:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC). Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 02:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
In this particular case, the survivor is already in prison for life without parole, so any charges they might decide to file against him would be just for show. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:31, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Sort of. But there are ways to legally get out of prison without parole. If a governor or high court decides to overturn or commute the murder sentence, he'd still have to serve out the escape sentence. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:59, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
Plus, perhaps under prison administrative rules, his life "behind the walls" will be subjected to harsher penalties (i.e., less amenities) if he has several sentences (not just one) being served. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:17, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I think there is an important point here. Prison escape is a crime. This legal def. [47] says: "In order for an individual who has been accused of escape to be convicted, all elements of the crime must be proved. Such elements are governed by the specific language of each state statute". So, the media should be saying someone allegedly escaped from prison. We shall have to wait for the court case where someone sues a paper, or sues for unlawful arrest or something. Myrvin (talk) 10:25, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
For the legal eagles, this seems good[48]. Myrvin (talk) 10:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
This is all pointless hair-splitting for the sake of debate. There is nothing unusual or inconsistent in not referring to Matt and Sweat as "alleged" escapees. See this example of a story on the escape from a British newspaper [49]. Note the phrases "Sweat and Matt used power tools to cut their way out of Clinton correctional facility" and "broke through steel walls, slipped through a steam pipe and emerged from a manhole outside the 170-year-old prison." The newspaper is reporting the facts of what they did. They were in prison, then they weren't. Ergo, they escaped. No amount of specious "a defense could be duress" can change those basic facts. --Viennese Waltz 13:01, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
You miss the entire point of this discussion, if that is your response. In fact, I personally knew a guy who escaped from prison. It "looked" just like you would expect it to look. In court, he claimed that he "ran for his life" out of fear of being raped (and the prison staff was indifferent to his predicament). It worked. His conviction was thrown out. Legally, he did not escape. (That is, he did escape, but with a defense / justification.) Therefore, he did not commit the "crime" of escape. (I could find the legal cite, when I have time to look.) So, I don't understand your comment: "No amount of specious "a defense could be duress" can change those basic facts." A defense does not change facts. It can – and does – offer reasons (i.e., defenses) to legally ascertain that the person maybe did the conduct, but did not commit the "crime". (That is, his conduct did not meet the elements of the crime and/or there was justification.) This is no different than self-defense. I'd say: "Yes, I killed that guy. But it was in self-defense. Therefore, I did the killing. But I am not legally guilty of the crime of murder." Same thing. As in the case I described. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 13:39, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
When a newspaper writes "He escaped from prison", they're not talking about the crime of escape. They're just reporting the fact that he escaped from prison, i.e. one minute he was there and the next minute he wasn't. Nothing to do with guilt or innocence of any crime. By the way, I'd love to know where these prisons are that you can just run out of without being stopped. --Viennese Waltz 13:55, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
@Viennese Waltz: You state: "When a newspaper writes "He escaped from prison", they're not talking about the crime of escape." So, you are saying that the newspaper is not using the legal definition of "escape", but rather the vernacular everyday layman's use of the word "escape". Correct? Then, how would that be different from the word "murder"? There is a strict legal definition; however, there is also the vernacular everyday layman's version of that word. So, your argument – if correct – by logic, should also apply to the media labeling a person a "murderer" before he is convicted of murder. We know that never happens. So, with murder, they always use "alleged". And I can't imagine the media defending their non-use of the word "alleged" by claiming: "Oh, when we wrote up that story, we were using the vernacular everyday layman's definition of "murder". We were not using the strict legal definition of "murder"." Clearly, that argument would never hold water. So why is "escape" different, according to your interpretation? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:01, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
@Viennese Waltz: You state: "By the way, I'd love to know where these prisons are that you can just run out of without being stopped." Good question. Many "escapes" are not of the dramatic Sweat and Matt version. An inmate can escape from a low/minimum security prison. Yes, he can essentially just walk away (as the minimum security prison will likely not have "fences" or other obstacles to contain him). In other words, it is not only a maximum security prison from which an inmate can escape. Also, many inmates go out into the community on a work detail, for example. (For example, in my state, they are the men you see on the highway, picking up the trash.) An inmate can easily escape (i.e., walk away) from an outside work detail. So, we shouldn't always associate the crime of "escape" with a maximum security prison and/or with the sensationalistic and dramatic Sweat/Matt version. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:09, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
You're right. The escape is a verifiable fact. There's also the matter of "clear and present danger", which trumps any need for weasel words. Note that Spadaro was making similar hare-splitting arguments earlier this month about whether these guys would be owed the reward if they turned themselves in. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:15, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
@Baseball Bugs: What does a former Help Desk question about reward money have to do with this discussion? Why are you bringing that up here and now? And, by the way, that question was indeed a valid question. And, by the way, many legal issues do, in fact, depend on hair-splitting and parsing of words. Were you really not aware of that? In fact, that massive case that would either affirm or repeal Obamacare entirely hinged upon the Supreme Court's interpretation of four words (namely, "established by the State"). That is, four words from legislation that numbered in the thousands of pages. (In the end, the Supreme Court affirmed Obamacare by mincing words and claiming that it was simply a "tax", which Congress was indeed allowed to pass.) So, hair-splitting, parsing of words, and linguistic gymnastics are part of the legal landscape. And part of any legal discussion. So, what's your point exactly (above)? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk)
Unfair, Bugs- assume good faith. The media would be in deep trouble if they reported that Joe Smith, the murderer was at large - if he hadn't been convicted. He might even get off if there are too many reports to say he did it before he was convicted. Nevertheless, he is surely a "clear and present danger". Viennese Waltz: I think that's what the papers would argue. I'll await the court case. Myrvin (talk) 15:46, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I have found an example of "alleged escape"[50]. I'm not sure it helps my case tough. Myrvin (talk) 15:58, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Meanwhile, in Vietnam [51].Myrvin (talk) 16:01, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
This [52] says that they even have "escape in the second degree". Here, a man claims he did not escape, even though "one minute he was there and the next minute he wasn't." His argument was that he didn't escape because he "was not [in] custody “imposed as a result” of his felony convictions." (p. 886) They overturned it and made it a "conviction for third degree escape".Myrvin (talk) 16:09, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
This [53] is about someone who might or might not be "guilty of the crime of escape". He was not in prison at all at the time. Myrvin (talk) 16:20, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I think if I were a newspaper being sued for not saying "alleged escape", I would argue that I was using the word "escape" in its simple non-legal sense. I would also cite "1769 W. Blackstone Comm. Laws Eng. III. 415 When a defendant is once in custody upon this process [ca. sa.]..if he be afterwards seen at large, it is an escape.", and "1641 Rastell's Termes de la Ley (new ed.) f. 142, Escape is where one that is arrested commeth to his liberty before that he be delivered by award of any Justice, or by order of Law." Having now argued both sides of the case, it's time to stop. Myrvin (talk) 16:20, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
@Myrvin: You stated: "I think if I were a newspaper being sued for not saying "alleged escape", I would argue that I was using the word "escape" in its simple non-legal sense." Would that argument fly if the word/crime was "murder"? Highly doubtful. For my more detailed response to such a claim, see my above post (which is time-stamped at 05:01, 1 July 2015 (UTC)). Basically, you can't have it both ways. The newspaper cannot "pick and choose" which crimes it wants to report in the legal sense and which crimes it wants to report in the non-legal sense. If that were the case, anything would fly, and the media would have no restrictions whatsoever. Which would nullify the whole concept of slander, libel, and defamation. So, again, the media can't have it both ways. And they can't pick and choose different definitions of words for whatever scenario suits their needs and benefits them. They'd essentially have carte blanche to say pretty much anything. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:27, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
@Joseph A. Spadaro: I've already made that argument because I was playing advocate for both sides. For 'escape', the media is having it both ways, and has for a while. It seems nobody has stopped them yet. They have been stopped from calling someone a murderer or a thief, before conviction, because the courts have stopped them. But not yet for 'escape'. As I said, I await the court case. Myrvin (talk) 06:37, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
@Myrvin: Yes, you are correct. They (the media) are trying to have it both ways; they want to eat their cake and have it, too. But, you don't have to wait for any court cases. If there is a precedential court case for murder or theft (as you claim), then that very same court case would be applicable to escape. In other words, you don't need to wait for a specific court case on any permutation of any crime (murder, bank robbery, kidnapping, rape, embezzlement, escape, etc., etc., etc.). If there is a precedential case, it applies to all crimes. You don't need a specific court case for every specific crime. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:02, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
OK. But I don't know that it has ever happened. Myrvin (talk) 16:12, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
For the UK I found thia[54].Myrvin (talk) 16:54, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Have we thrashed this to death? Myrvin (talk) 16:16, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:47, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Does Google Translate rely on context ?[edit]

When I select the from language as French and the target language as English, it correctly translates "Trois hommes et un couffin" to "Three men and a cradle". But, when I just try to translate "couffin" it fails to translate. (And, annoyingly, Google Translate returns the same word as the translation, making it unclear whether the translation failed or whether the word is the same in the other language.) So, why is it unable to translate the word without the sentence ?

StuRat (talk) 12:15, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh, that's because French doesn't have "couffin". It does have "un couffin", or "le couffin", "couffins", and the like. HOOTmag (talk) 13:08, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm confused. How can it have "a cradle" and "the cradle" without having "cradle" ? StuRat (talk) 13:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Just as English does not have "facto", although it does have "de facto". Btw, although Google translates well "Bahamas", "Gambia", Wikipedia does not have them, but rather has "The Bahamas", "The Gambia". HOOTmag (talk) 14:25, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Google Translate does not translate word by word, if that's what you're asking. Doing so yields gibberish. Looie496 (talk) 13:57, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
In that case I would expect an error saying "Single words can not be translated". While I agree that using context can improve the translation by selecting the correct meaning when multiple meanings are possible, in cases where there is a single meaning it's not an issue. StuRat (talk) 18:47, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I typed ten Portuguese words at random into Google and it correctly translated all of them. That's not ten words all together but ten separate translations. My only quibble would be that for the ones where Spanish has an identical word it reports "Spanish detected". There seems to be some discrimination going on here. Also, if you don't include the diacritics it's stumped. (talk) 14:10, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I tried some inflexions and tenses and still got good results. However, sou, which is Portuguese for "I am", produced sou - Haitian creole detected. Directing it to Portuguese brought up the right translation. Why wouldn't it come up with sou which I believe is a French halfpenny? There must be some ranking involved, like their page ranking system. I'd be interested to know how it works (talk) 14:26, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
At you can click "couffin" in the right box to "see alternate translations". For "un couffin" and "une couffin" (une is female) it guesses a translation from the start – not the same guess and you can still click it to see alternatives. But for "couffin" it only says "couffin". Maybe it doesn't want to venture a guess without any context. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:35, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
This [55] gives "basket, straw basket" and ""bassinet". Myrvin (talk) 14:57, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
In Google it gives the sentence "Grand cabas souple à anses". When you put that in it translates as "Grand flexible bag with handles". Sounds like the sort of handbag in "The Importance of Being Earnest". Myrvin (talk) 15:01, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Couffin is masculine. See: So it can't be "une couffin". HOOTmag (talk) 15:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
"couffin de bebe" comes out as "bassinet for baby". Yet bebe on its own comes out as bebe, and baby in English translates to bebe in French. I think it's a glitch. 15:07, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't think it's a glitch at all. The word is bebe with an acute accent over both vowels. Have you ever come across the acronym GIGO in programming, which means "garbage in, garbage out?" (talk) 15:36, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Quite right. See this.[56]. Myrvin (talk) 18:54, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
If you tell it you are translating from French, and there is no "bebe" without diacritical marks in French, I would hope it would provide the translation with them, instead, labelled "Did you mean ... ?". This is similar to how a Google search can fix spelling errors. It sounds like they aren't quite there yet with the translator. Perhaps they can just plug in the logic from a Google search as the front-end, to figure out what words were meant, before attempting the translation. StuRat (talk) 18:40, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes, "couffin de bebe" no accents - gives "bassinet for baby" [57] Myrvin (talk) 19:42, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I hope there's an enlightening analysis somewhere (sorry for not providing one) but I just had some fun with varieties (note the punctuation marks and capitalization) such as "couffin." >> "basket." / "couffin," >> "basket," / "Couffin" >> "bassinet" / "Couffin." >> "Basket." / "Couffin," >> "basket," / "couffin couffin" >> "bassinet bassinet" / "Couffin Couffin" >> "Moses Basket Moses Basket" / ...
I certainly can't agree with HOOTmag that 'French doesn't have "couffin"'. Not only does it exist as a lemma, it can be read in ads selling baby cradles too, for just one example. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:04, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Here are some pictures. [58] Not just a cradle. Myrvin (talk) 20:13, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
One surprising meaning that isn't found is a coffin. Apparently that meaning somehow developed in English from the Old French word, without it ever developing in Modern French. StuRat (talk) 20:53, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
What's even more surprising is that Morticia Addams didn't have a coffin-shaped bassinet for her future babies. Well, with all that driving of Gomez wild with her French, I'm sure certain things happened behind closed doors, out of view of the cameras. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:41, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I wondered about coffin. The OED has "Middle English cofin, coffyn, etc., < Old French cofin, coffin, little basket, case, etc., < Latin cophinus (later cofinus), < Greek κόϕινος basket". So, couffin may have had little effect in English. Does a French dictionary say couffin came from OF cofin? This [59] suggests so. Myrvin (talk) 06:32, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
The "did you mean" is switched on but you have to direct to the language to access it. Those Portuguese words I typed in without diacritics translated nicely when I directed to Portuguese. Estacao (no cedilha or tilde) came up estacao (with diacritics) and translated correctly as "season". It also means "railway station" - do they only give one meaning? I remember I was at a Spanish frontier railway station and by the tracks for some reason (they don't have raised platforms - Australia has but I believe the United States don't). An official came up to me and spoke to me in Spanish, which I could just about understand, but he kindly used the Portuguese word comboio to alert me to the danger. (talk) 17:28, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

What is the Arabic in the title of the document?[edit] -

What is the Arabic in the title of this document?

Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 15:24, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

It's: كراسة مجموعة قوانين سلوك وتصرفات الطالب, 2010-2011
i.e.: Handbook of a set of regulations for the student's behaviour and actions, 2010-2011. HOOTmag (talk) 16:09, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 00:52, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Difference between 'git' and 'get'[edit]

When I was at university in Leeds, I was often called a 'Scouse git' by southerners. This was all in jest of course, but 'get' is a proper insult in Liverpool. Are there any other dialects with this distinction? KägeTorä - () (もしもし!) 15:45, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

A get is a Hebrew divorce decree. "Get" is a perfectly respectable English word meaning "obtain". "Git" is an obnoxious English word whether heard in Liverpool or anywhere else. (talk) 15:51, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
The OED gives the first use of git from 1949. For get it says "orig. Sc. and north. In contemptuous use = brat. Also spec. a bastard; hence as a general term of abuse: a fool, idiot." Goes back to 1567. Myrvin (talk) 15:56, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
(ec) 'Git' may be obnoxious, but in the context described 'get' means the same thing. See [60]: 'git' is a variant of 'get', meaning an illegitimate child. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:58, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
In American English, "git" is a colloquialism for "get", in the context of being short for "get out of here" or "get lost". So in the Monty Python "Argument Sketch", when Graham Chapman mutters "stupid git" after Michael Palin leaves, the meaning is lost on Americans. EO says "get" in the sense of "bastard" derives from "beget".[61]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:26, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
The pronunciation [gɪt] for get, mentioned by Bugs, is specific to certain regions of the United States. See Phonological history of English high front vowels#Pin–pen merger. The pronunciation [gɪt] for comic effect may be somewhat more widespread than the pin-pen merger, but in the Northeast it is not common and would invoke regional stereotypes (e.g. of hillbillies and rednecks). Marco polo (talk) 16:58, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
As in "Git Along Little Dogies".[62]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:49, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
In the context of Liverpool, the New Shorter Oxford Dictionary derives "get" from the middle English word meaning offspring; descendants; child (cf beget). Then it degenerated to brat or bastard (Scotland and north) and a contemptible person, a fool, an idiot, (dialect and slang). (talk) 16:51, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
The term "Scouse git!" was a catchphrase of one Alf Garnett, who in Til Death Us Do Part, had a motivationally challenged Liverpudlian son-in-law. Alansplodge (talk) 18:15, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I think the only time I've heard "get" used as an insult, it was in reference to Sir Walter Raleigh. "Git" (as an insult) is heard a little more often in North America, but the source is usually from the UK in some manner. Matt Deres (talk) 19:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
  • iTunes randomly chose to play me another Monkees song (Nine Times Blue) as I read this section. —Tamfang (talk) 03:42, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

"Matekua tenenoro kauome kitore"? (Māori? Igbo?)[edit]

The lyrics of Dr. Alban's 1992 song Groove Machine 5 consists to 3/4 of the Māori hill's name Taumatawhakatangihangakoauauotamateapokaiwhenuakitanatahu. But what is the last quarter probably supposed to be, in a comment cited as "Matekua tenenoro kauome kitore". I don't know whether that's Māori, Igbo (the singer's native language), gibberish, or anything else - anyone have an idea? --KnightMove (talk) 21:42, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I know a lot of Ibo people and it's not that. It's Maori.

Ko te mea hoki kua mate, kua mawheto ia i te hara

is Romans 6 v. 7 in the Maori bible. (talk) 18:55, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

June 30[edit]

Polish translation (~ 1880)[edit]

I found the term "trakcie bitym" in a Polish dictionary from the end of the 19th century (Mieczyn wieś w powiecie włoszczowskim, gminie i parafii Krasocin, leży przy trakcie bitym z Włoszczowy do Kielc.). Translation yields "beaten road". How should it be translated? Is it "pavement-covered road" ? Thx for any help. GEEZERnil nisi bene 12:52, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

OK found it. Case closed. GEEZERnil nisi bene 14:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

implying something by saying its opposite[edit]

There's a word (and we have a good Wikipedia article about it, I just don't remember the word) for when you imply something by stating the opposite. E.g. saying "My opponent has never been convicted of murder" insinuates that the opponent was at least suspected of murder. Anyone know the word? I think it goes back to classical rhetoric but I'm not sure of that. Thanks. (talk) 15:32, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Irony. But it's a bit more complicated than that. Read the article. Myrvin (talk) 15:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
The example you give isn't the same as the Q in the title, for which an example would be "He's a real genius, isn't he ?", said satirically. Innuendo is a better match for implying something without actually saying it, as in your example. StuRat (talk) 15:45, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Saying one thing but implying the opposite comes under irony. But you probably wouldn't think of that as a term from classical rhetoric. There's lots of other devices that can achieve similar goals, and use related concepts. Apophasis is also relevant to saying something by not saying it. Depending on the context, litotes could also be involved. Then there's the general notion of the Unsaid. We also have a nice Glossary_of_rhetorical_terms - for almost any real-world statement, it can be categorized as deploying many different rhetorical devices, and classification of such is always a bit ambiguous and subjective. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:55, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I agree with both of the above posts. I was answering the "imply something by stating the opposite" question. Myrvin (talk) 18:51, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Sarcasm. According to B. Bousfield (in Marina Lambrou and Peter Stockwell, Contemporary Stylistics, Continuum International Publishing Group, 2010, p. 213), sarcasm is:

The use of strategies which, on the surface appear to be appropriate to the situation, but are meant to be taken as meaning the opposite in terms of face management. That is, the utterance which appears, on the surface, to maintain or enhance the face of the recipient actually attacks and damages the face of the recipient. ... sarcasm is an insincere form of politeness which is used to offend one's interlocutor.

HOOTmag (talk) 16:04, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
That's saying a nice or neutral thing while actually being nasty. It's not necessarily meaning the opposite thing. There are hours of argument about this in Talk for irony and sarcasm. A bit later, your quote says, "For Leech this effect is caused by the phenomenon of irony, as it is irony which enables a speaker to be impolite while seeming to be polite." Like I said, it's not simple. Myrvin (talk) 18:42, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Incredible !! How can you claim - the utterance the quote discusses - is "not necessarily meaning the opposite thing", while the quote does explicitly discuss utterances which: "are meant to be taken as meaning the opposite..."? HOOTmag (talk) 20:50, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Somewhat related, the old Leon Trotsky joke.[63]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:07, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
A gem, BB. Yes... "meanings that change with inflection." Martinevans123 (talk) 18:51, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks all. Apophasis is the article whose title I couldn't remember. (talk) 21:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
    • Well, I would certainly never say that this whole thread was a complete waste of time. Nor that you are very probably a mischievous sockpuppet of a very well-known encyclopedia founder. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:08, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Great! My high school Latin teacher (who taught me the concept) would be proud of me. He made it seem as though the technique was very common in the debates and accusations surrounding the First_Catilinarian_conspiracy. I'll mark this as resolved. SemanticMantis (talk) 22:08, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
WRT "irony": It's ironic that "it's ironic" is so widely misused these days. --Shirt58 (talk) 09:45, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I guess that brings this discusison to a full stop. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:01, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Try changing water into good wine. Those almost 13464 not superfluous occurrences of "ironically" just waiting getting translated into their much heavier equivalent "paradoxically".--Askedonty (talk) 12:34, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Wow, quite a few. Can we get an irony-bot for that job? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:40, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Here is one. Got a license ? --Askedonty (talk) 12:49, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Are the sentences grammatically correct in English? (participial adjective)[edit]

  • It is an error of table can't be displayed.
  • It is an error of table couldn't be displayed. (could)

Because I think "of" is a preposition which should be followed by a noun rather than a clause ("table can't be displayed")

I wonder if changing it from "can" to "could" resolves the grammar issue.

Other examples of participial adjective I found:

  • Boring teachers make bored students. (boring, bored)
  • A book written in English. (written)

But I could't find participial adjective examples for auxiliary verbs (can, will, shall, may, etc.). Do such examples exist?

-- Justin545 (talk) 20:55, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Are you trying to say that "It is an error THAT the table can't be displayed"? Myrvin (talk) 20:58, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Hmmm ... what would you do if you have to add "of" into the sentence? -- Justin545 (talk) 21:14, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
"It is an error of the programmer that the table ...."?? Maybe, even "It is an error of the table that it can't be displayed." But that doesn't seem idiomatic. "The table is in error because it can't ..." would be better. Myrvin (talk) 21:19, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
"It is an error of the table that it can't be displayed." - I like the answer, as least it looks correct. -- Justin545 (talk) 21:31, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
That's grammatically correct but nonsensical ontologically. It's not a table's error that it can't be displayed, it's an error on the part of someone or something else. There can be an error in a table but I don't think a table can make errors. SemanticMantis (talk) 21:39, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Sigh, it looks like you are correct too. The meaning is kind of different indeed. -- Justin545 (talk) 21:53, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
At a stretch there could be an "error of a table" if it some sort of reference. "We were expecting a train to arrive at 1:00pm, but that was only because of an error of the timetable".
Participle adjectives are possible (like in your last sentences), but auxiliary verbs (except for: "is", "do", "have", "dare") - don't have the participle form. Additionally, your first sentences about the "table" are wrong (I couldn't understand them either). HOOTmag (talk) 21:24, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I thought that "could" is the past participle form of "can" ... am I wrong? -- Justin545 (talk) 21:35, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
"Could" is not a Participle form, it's a Past form. "Can", and "cant", have no Participle form. However, "can" = "is able to", and "can't" = "is unable to", while "is unable" has an adjective "unable", so you can say: "it is an error of [a] table unable to be displayed". HOOTmag (talk) 22:09, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Oops, I should have searched more harder for a reliable source. Now I realize "could" is just a past form, thanks! As for the "unable" version, I think the equivalence makes sense to get out of the "could". It turns out aux. verbs have some bizarre properties. -- Justin545 (talk) 01:47, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
What is the intended meaning? Is it (1) to say that the inability to display constitutes an error? Or is it (2) that the nature of the acknowledged error is inability to display? --catslash (talk) 21:27, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Excuse me. I don't understand the question well ... -- Justin545 (talk) 21:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Myrvin's first answer ("It is an error THAT the table can't be displayed"), means: "You already know that the table can't be displayed, but I need to tell you that this is a problem". I don't think that is what you want to say. More likely you want to say "You already know that there is a problem, but I need to tell you that the problem is that the table can't be displayed". Is that right? --catslash (talk) 00:39, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes! This sentence was due to some programming bug got fixed and posted on a bugtracker web page to inform everybody that it has been fixed. -- Justin545 (talk) 01:19, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
For 'of' with participles, the OED has "There was one child of the marriage". "it was an affair of generations", "The old bluesmen, their black faces engraved with the sorrows of ages." 'Of' is a very complicated word. Myrvin (talk) 21:30, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Sometimes errors have specific names and error codes. Maybe you're looking for something like
  • It is the error of "table can't be displayed"
As far as I can tell my example is grammatical, but it might be more clear if the "of" was just removed. Putting the name of the error in quotes turns it into a grammatical mention rather than a grammatical use, see use-mention distinction. SemanticMantis (talk) 21:36, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
It's the exact meaning ... it would be better if the punctuation marks could be vocally represented. -- Justin545 (talk) 22:05, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
You can vocally represent quotation marks. Perhaps not unambiguously, but people do it. Try a little pause before the quoted part, and change tone a bit. Almost like you're speaking in italics :) SemanticMantis (talk) 22:38, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I like that SM. It is the same as "'Table can't be displayed' is the error message." But I think the questioner wants an "of" somewhere. Myrvin (talk) 21:42, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
The "of" is needlessly wordy. "It is the 'table can't be displayed' error" works best (if you're avoiding contractions). Can't accidentally imply it's the table's fault. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:33, July 1, 2015 (UTC)

It seems like the OP's question has been resolved. I turns out, the OP was not looking for a "participle adjective" - but rather for an "adjective" only (like in their example "boring teachers"). Anyways, they have indicated (in their response to me above), that my suggestion - of using the " equivalence ['can't' = 'is unable to'], makes sense - to get out of the 'could' " [i.e. to get rid of the 'can't'] - hence to get the correct adjective suggested by me: 'unable', so it seems they accept the final consequence: 'it is an error of [a] table unable to be displayed'. HOOTmag (talk) 04:52, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

We used to live in the automobile world, now we live in the new computer world, where the ones who create and rule and help and fix, don't need to master language as a means for thinking or for common sense... Akseli9 (talk) 09:58, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Of course, and I wonder who here has ever tried to "master language as a means for thinking". The OP was simply looking for an "adjective of can't", so I tried to do my best to help them find what they were looking for, and I hope I succeeded, that's all. Anyways, I wonder how your comment is related to the whole topic discussed in my response you've referred to. HOOTmag (talk) 10:13, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

July 2[edit]

Arabic question: What is "Schools in Detroit" in Arabic and Polish?[edit]

What is "Schools in Detroit" in Arabic? I would like to add that description to Commons:Category:Schools in Detroit along with English, Bengali, Spanish.

Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 03:18, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

مدارس في ديترويت Omidinist (talk) 03:44, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 04:40, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

For any editors who know Polish, is it okay if I know what "Schools in Detroit" is in Polish? WhisperToMe (talk) 04:40, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Szkoły w Detroit. HOOTmag (talk) 06:59, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Thank you! :) WhisperToMe (talk) 07:21, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Just curious, how do you pronounce the single "w" word in Polish ? StuRat (talk) 13:38, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
/v/. HOOTmag (talk) 14:03, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Together with the following syllable: [ˈʂkɔwɨ vdiˈtrɔit]. If the following word started with a voiceless consonant, the "w" would be devoiced: szkoły w Toronto [ˈʂkɔwɨ ftɔˈrɔntɔ]. — Kpalion(talk) 14:30, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Not only in Polish, but also in other Slavic languages there exist prepositions consisting only of a single consonant. Indeed, they are pronounced together with the following syllable (word). (There always is a following word because in those languages, unlike in English, a preposition is not a good word to end a sentence with.) --Theurgist (talk) 17:57, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Where/what is your waist?[edit]

This question is equally about semantics and anatomy.

I read the article waist as well as waistline (clothing) and did some Google searches. and I'm finding some of the information contradictory, particularly for men.

The definition I see in some places is "the narrowest part of your torso". Let's take a man with a protruding belly, who wears his pants below his belly, which is normal for such people. Even if we were to say the part of his body where he wears his pants (basically his hips) is not really part of his torso and thus cannot be his waist, then certainly the area immediately below his chest is likely to be much smaller in circumference than his belly. But I've never heard anyone call that part of your body your waist.

And if you take the "anatomical" waist which is defined by some to be the circumference around the part of your torso containing your navel, then for this guy with a belly, that would likely be the *widest* part of your torso, not the narrowest.

So do men have several different waists depending on the definition?--Captain Breakfast (talk) 08:39, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

The waist is, in fashion terms, where your trousers stop (hence how describing jeans as "high-waisted" is meaningful). It doesn't have much relationship with the anatomical waist, except that if you're slim enough that your body curves in at the waist, this is a comfortable (if currently unfashionable) place for wearing belts. The waist is not an identifiable structure in the way that a finger or a tooth is. It's ultimately just an arbitrary line on the body, so it's whatever you define it to be. Smurrayinchester 09:16, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Among Negroes in American jails the trousers stopped very low (about halfway down the underpants). This has become a fashion in Britain (and no doubt elsewhere) which many, not only women, find distasteful. (talk) 09:37, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
"Among Negroes in American jails?" That's a hoot, and about 25 years after the fact. Not safe for work or children. μηδείς (talk) 00:06, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it's vague. For example Empire waist dresses on women put the "waist" just below the bust. Perhaps some rather large men do consider their waits to be near the nipples at the narrowest point of the torso, and also wear their pants there - this guy is not fat but he wears his pants very high [64]SemanticMantis (talk) 15:06, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
LOL Captain Breakfast (talk) 03:50, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I would say that some obese people simply don't have a waist, in that there is no narrower spot between their chest and hips. Therefore, belts don't really work, and they need to go with suspenders. StuRat (talk) 13:34, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

What's the grammatical form: "You hate no-one, do you?", or "You hate no-one, don't you?"[edit]

The problem I find in #1, is that #1 is opposed to the general form: "You VERB OBJECT, don't you?" (or "You don't VERB OBJECT, do you?"), but it's never "You VERB OBJECT, do you?" (just as it's never "You don't VERB OBJECT, don't you?").

On the other hand: the problem I find in #2, is that the form "You VERB OBJECT, don't you?", is AFAIK an abbreviation of the original meaning: "I was quite sure you VERB OBJECT, don't you VERB OBJECT?" (just as the form "You don't VERB OBJECT do you?", is an abbreviation of the original meaning: "I was quite sure you don't VERB OBJECT, do you VERB OBJECT?"), so #2 - which states "You hate no-one don't you?" - must be an abbreviation of: "I was quite sure you hate no-one, don't you hate no-one?"; but I wonder whether "Don't you hate no-one?" is grammaical, because "You don't hate no-one" is not.

However, maybe my assumption was wrong, and "Don't you hate no-one?" (which could mean "Haven't you claimed you hate no-one?") is grammatical (although "You don't hate no-one" is not). In that case, I guess the correct form - among the forms mentioned in my question - is "You hate no-one, don't you?" (talk) 10:00, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Nobody is the problem in my eyes. "You hate no-one, don't you?" would be my shot at it. - X201 (talk) 10:07, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks to your remark, I fixed my original question. Btw, what do you think about the last section of my previous response? (talk) 10:20, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Simply rephrase the question as "You don't hate anyone, do you?" and the problem is solved. --Viennese Waltz 10:23, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I've always been quite aware of the legitimacy of "You don't hate anyone, do you?", however my question was about how to deal with sentences involving "no-one". (talk) 10:29, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Why would you insist on having "no-one" in the sentence when it just causes problems and there is a problem-free alternative? --Viennese Waltz 10:34, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I've never "insisted" on having "on-one". On the contrary: I personally prefer "anyone" to "no-one". I've only wondered whether other people share my impression, that using "no-one" may really cause problems. If they do, then I want them to say that (like you); if they don't - then I want them to tell me the correct form when "no-one" is involved. (talk) 10:45, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I think they are both valid - if a bit odd - but they mean slightly different things. When you say "You do X, don't you?", it suggests that I think you do X and am daring you to say you don't. When you say "You do X, do you?", it is probably avowing complete ignorance of whether you do it or not. For the question: "You hate no-one, don't you?" It is saying, I think you hate no-one - say you don't if you dare! The other is saying, is it true that you hate no-one? They could be revamped as: "Is it not the case that you hate no-one?" and "Is it the case that you hate no-one?" You hear the first on TV when the prosecutor is cross-examining the defence witness. The other is more friendly - perhaps posed by the defence lawyer. Myrvin (talk) 13:06, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
What do you mean by: "I think you hate no-one - say you don't if you dare!"? "don't" what? Do you mean "don't [hate no-one]"? But this was my initial problem: Can you claim you "don't hate no-one"? I suspect it's not a valid expression, is it? (talk) 14:07, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Depends on how picky you want to be, and how formal the writing/speaking is. In many varieties of USA English, "I don't hate no-one" is perfectly grammatical, and resolves to the same semantics as "I don't hate anyone". See Double_negative#Two_or_more_negatives_resolving_to_a_negative, which gives the example "I didn't go nowhere today." See also "I can't get no satisfaction", which does not mean that the speaker is always satisfied. But that's a rock song, and the usage would be inappropriate for e.g. a Wikipedia article or school report. We deal with ambiguity related to the examples you just gave all the time. For example, "Don't you want a puppy?" can be answered both "Yes, I do want a puppy" as well as "No, I do want a puppy". Rephrasing: "Do you not want a puppy?" - the answer "Yes" could mean "Yes, it is the case that I do not want a puppy" (this is a negative answer). In other cases, "Yes" could mean "Yes I want a puppy". Fortunately we just use Context_(language_use) and Intonation_(linguistics) to make sense of things or just rephrase them for clarity, and seldom do we have problems in real-life spoken discussions like this, at least seldom between two native speakers. Hope that helps :) SemanticMantis (talk) 14:57, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I assume you agree to the following two rules: 1. The second part of the sentence "You VERB OBJECT - don't you?", is an abbreviation of "don't you VERB OBJECT?". 2. From what the speaker means - we can infer, that if the question mark had been removed from the second part of the sentence - so that this second part would have been "you don't VERB OBJECT", then this second part would have meant the opposite of what is meant by the first part of the sentence ("You VERB OBJECT"). In my opinion, this is what we can infer - from what the speaker means when they add the second part of the sentence, can't we?
However, your last claim seems to contradict - at least one of - the two rules mentioned above, because: you claim that the sentence "You hate no-one, don't you [hate no-one]?", eventually means "You hate no-one, don't you [hate anyone]?". consequently, if the question mark had been removed from the second part of the sentence - so that this second part would have been "you don't [hate no-one]" - meaning (in your opinion) "you don't [hate anyone]", then this second part would have meant exactly what - rather than the opposite of what - is meant by the first part of the sentence ("you hate no-one")... (talk) 16:03, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I'm afraid this is an idiomatic form - like many, many others. I'll expand: "I think you hate no-one - if you don't hate no-one (ie you hate someone) then say so". I don't think you will see "don't hate no-one" very often. AS VW says: "Don't hate anyone" is more likely. Myrvin (talk) 15:34, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
My Scottish (Dumfriesshire) great-aunt (born early 20th century, pre-WW1) used to offer guests a drink with "You don't want a sherry do you?" Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 15:53, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Great :-) (talk) 16:03, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Somewhere, I read an account about a puritan asked to dinner by non-puritan folk. The lady said to him, "You will have some meat, won't you?" He replied, "Madam, first thou said an untruth, and then thou asked a question."Myrvin (talk) 16:27, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
All of this reminds me another case, about a fellow who lived alone in a huge forest, and sometimes had to cope with intrusive guests. He used to welcome them by saying: "If I had had sugar, I would have suggested you coffee with sugar - if I had had coffee..." (talk) 17:47, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
What do you mean by "I don't think you will see 'don't hate no-one' very often"? Is it ever possible to hear - something like "you don't hate no-one" - from a native speaker who means "you hate someone"? If it's possible, then in what occasions? (talk) 16:03, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
It would be easy to say that 'don't hate no-one' is ungrammatical. Perhaps you should assume that, but here [65][66] are searches with lots of them in common speech. But all these are probably double negatives (cf SemanticMantis above) that mean "I don't hate anyone". Also, I wrote a book once entitled "Nobody Don't Know Nothing", so what do I know? Myrvin (talk) 16:22, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
No, I've never said anything (or nothing if you like) about whether "don't hate no-one" is grammatical. I've always been quite aware of the double negation used by some (native) speakers. I only wondered whether any expression like "you don't hate no-one" - can be heard from a native speaker who means "you hate someone". If you insist that it is possible, then I wonder - in what occasions it is. Regarding the book you've written: does it deal with expressions like "you don't hate no-one" - meaning "you hate someone"? (talk) 17:47, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I can find no instances of "you don't hate no-one" - meaning "you hate someone", so I don't insist upon it. No, my book was about the impossibility of knowing anything. I think we have moved beyond your original question. Myrvin (talk) 18:33, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I'd slightly disagree with the you're interpretation (or at lease, talking about "daring" them makes it seem more hostile than it should be). To my mind, the form "You do X, don't you?" is asking for confirmation that your assumption is correct. "You do X, do you?" seems slightly more questioning, as if you are either not sure that they do X, or are surprised that they do. Iapetus (talk) 10:46, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Almost any random sequence of English words can come up as a response to an unusually framed question. Husband: I don't hate anyone at all. Wife: Oh dear, you know you hate someone. Husband: No, honey, there is no one I hate. Wife: Come, on John, you know you don't hate no-one; there's Bob next door, for a start. μηδείς (talk) 23:58, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Beat me to it. I was working on "I don't hate no-one, I hate everyone". Myrvin (talk) 06:29, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Al right guys, so the correct form I've been looking for is: "you hate no-one - don't you?", meaning "I've been quite sure you hate no-one - don't you hate no-one?", which means: "I've been quite sure you hate no-one - do you hate anyone?" (according to Medeis's version), or which means: "I've been quite sure you hate no-one - do you hate everyone?" (according to Myrvin's version). Personally I prefer Medeis's interpretation of my original sentence discussed in this thread (I think also Myrvin does), although Myrvin's version can be used as another interpretation of "don't hate no-one" - irrespective to (and regardless of) my original question. Anyways, all of those alternative interpretations can be added to our article double negation (and to other articles mentioning it) in order to emphasize that the double negation can't be regarded as ungrammatical - when interpreted in some ways. (talk) 07:06, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
It seems this thread can be closed. HOOTmag (talk) 07:24, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Could be my BrEng ears, but both constructions sound horrible to me. Why not go with "You don't hate anyone, do you?" --Dweller (talk) 10:53, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Didn't you read my post upthread? I already suggested that. --Viennese Waltz 12:27, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Nope. To be honest, I was put off reading the whole thread by the OP's SHOUTING and other people's excessive use of bold. --Dweller (talk) 12:47, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
OP's shouting? I don't remember I've ever shouted. Regarding "other people's excessive use of bold": Note that bold letters are intended to emphasize (rather than to shout). (talk) 13:01, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
The link I provided covers both of your points. --Dweller (talk) 13:35, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
As for the big letters: I've never used them to shout - but rather to quote. As for the bold letters: I've never used them to shout - but rather to emphasize, and the link I've provided (in my previous response) - covers that as well. (talk) 13:58, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
It could be that the link you've provided (in your previous response) leads to the same than this last link you're providing. --Askedonty (talk) 16:21, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Of course. (talk) 16:38, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Prior to your post, I count 16 bolded words, out of about 1900 in the thread. My post was the only one other than OP that used bolding, at 2/200 words. If you want to call rates of bolding 1/100 or less excessive, that's fine. Me, I figure using typographic emphasis sparingly is doing a favor to the community, otherwise we just have huge walls of text and it's hard to see key points. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:45, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

July 3[edit]


June 27[edit]

Why Russian national volleyball team loses frequently at 2015 FIVB world league[edit]

Russian volleyball team gained very poor results in 2015 FIVB Volleyball World League. It has never won a match and lost all of them. With only two points (as of 26 June), it is places at the bottom of the ranking table. I'm just curious to know why, if there's a special reason. Thanks. -- (talk) 01:38, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Because they aren't as good as other teams. --Jayron32 02:35, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Comparing their strategies to these strategies may yield clues on the specifics. Or, comparing their footage to the winners', if this isn't an urgent question. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:11, June 27, 2015 (UTC)

how do they decide movie editing awards?[edit]

There's a bunch of significant film editing awards like the ACE Eddie, Best Editing Oscar, and so forth. My uninformed understanding of film editing is that the director gives the editor a pile of footage and the editor (usually in collaboration with the director) figures out which parts to keep and which to leave out. The editor has to bring strong technical and artistic insight to this selection process, so I understand why the awards exist. But, if all you see is the finished film, how can you tell what the editor actually did? Maybe the editor made terrible choices by cutting out fantastic shots that the director had supplied. I don't see how anyone can judge the editing without also seeing all the raw footage that the editor saw, and that's usually not available to the award juries. So how is it done? Thanks. (talk) 02:46, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

According to the article "For Your Consideration – Judging the Invisible Art of Editing", there's a whole lot of guesswork involved: "Django editor Fred Raskin noted, 'I was talking to a couple of editor friends of mine about this, and the truth of the matter is, unless you’ve seen the dailies on the movie, you kind of can’t judge quality of the editing, until you know what the editor has to work with.'" (Myself, I go with the theory that the voters examine goat entrails by the light of a full moon.) Clarityfiend (talk) 03:10, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Some Oscar panelists don't watch the films, period. They must pick the editing awardee the same way they pick the others: picking one. There are apparently "too many movies for anyone to have to watch." InedibleHulk (talk) 06:16, June 27, 2015 (UTC)
Editing isn't just about deciding what gets cut and what gets kept- the director (or studio moneybags) has a big hand in that. Editing as an art is about pacing and rhythm- changing the timing very slighly can have a huge effect on the feel of a scene. See film editing. Someone who knows something about film can judge effective editing without any regard from "what stuff got cut out from the film". Staecker (talk) 12:05, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, all of the above answers are helpful and the links are interesting. (talk) 20:58, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

The Wicker Man aeroplane[edit]

What is Sgt Howie's aeroplane in The Wicker Man? DuncanHill (talk) 23:47, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

A Thurston Teal TSC-1A with tail number G-AXZN. Destroyed by fire in 1973. Nanonic (talk) 23:52, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, it's rather attractive. DuncanHill (talk) 00:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
If anybody has the time, the Thurston Teal#Notable appearances in media only has a link to another article, which doesn't seem to mention the Teal. Alansplodge (talk) 07:45, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

June 28[edit]

Something to do with Detroit and songs[edit]

Songs About Detroit: I Think You Should add Makin' Thunderbirds, from the Bob Seger album "The Distance," to this list. Definitely Detroit Related. They were made at the Wixom Plant, just outside of Detroit! — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 00:59, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

List of songs about Detroit is the article in question - you can edit it yourself! (This article was up for AfD in 2007, and survived - I'm not sure it would be so fortunate today). Tevildo (talk) 08:57, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Is membership in the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences automatic if you win an Academy Award/Oscar?[edit]

The general question is: how do they extend membership into the Academy? I assume the Academy (or some subgroup of it) makes a determination either subjectively or through some criteria. Does anyone know how this works? But, to get to my real question: is membership extended to anyone who ever wins an Oscar? In other words, if you win an Oscar, you will be invited to join. Is that how it works? Or, among all Oscar winners, some are invited and some not? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:51, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Does Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences#Membership not answer your question? --Jayron32 02:34, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
No. I am confused. That article states: "Membership eligibility may be achieved by earning a competitive Oscar nomination." Does that mean (A) once you get an Oscar nomination, you become eligible to be a member, but there are still more hoops and steps to the process before you get a membership? Or (B) once you get an Oscar nomination, you "automatically" become a member? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Note that an actor is not invited to membership in the Academy when they win an Oscar, but a little earlier, when they are nominated for the Oscar, and that there is also a sponsorship process. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:40, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps the primary source at may answer some of your questions. Yes, one who is nominated for an Oscar automatically becomes eligible to become a member (and do not require sponsors). But all candidates must first be approved by the appropriate branch committee first, who then each send their recommendations to the Academy's Board of Governors. It is the Board of Governors who have the final say on which individuals receive an invitation to become a member (I believe this final point is written into the Academy's bylaws). I myself could see a possible situation where a famous singer-songwriter gets nominated for Best Original Song, but the Board of Governors might get hesitant because this person is otherwise not really active in the film industry. Zzyzx11 (talk) 06:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
OK. Thanks. So, in my post above (at 03:02, 28 June 2015 UTC), I listed an alternative "A" and an alternative "B". You are saying that "A" is the case, and not "B". Correct? So, getting an Oscar nomination does not "equal" automatic membership. There are still a few other hoops to go through (e.g., Board of Governor vote, etc.). Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:32, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Now, to clear up a point of confusion. I was reading the following list of Academy invitations to membership this year (Academy Invites Record 322 New Members in Push for More Oscar Diversity). I am not familiar with many of the categories/branches, so I will stick with the most publicly visible (namely, actors and actresses). In the list at that above link, why isn't every single actor and actress nominated in the last Oscar ceremony invited? (This was the most recent ceremony: 87th Academy Awards.) In fact, very few are. I don't understand. All of those twenty actors and actresses (5 Best Actor nominees, 5 Best Actress nominees, etc.) are eligible to become a member. Yet, few are on this list of new invitees. What gives? I am sure the same holds for the other categories, but those are names I don't know or recognize as easily. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:42, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

  • I think it is explained above. Imagine applying to a college that only accepts high school graduates. If you graduated from high school, the admissions office considers your application using various unpublished criteria (possibly including "old boy network") and says yes or no. If you never graduated from high school or passed an equivalency test, the college won't even think about admitting you. But even if you graduated, a selective college might only accept 5% of eligible applicants. You are not guaranteed anything.

    In the case of AMPAS, the "eligibility" conferred by winning or being nominated for an Oscar, or sponsored by two members of a branch, is analogous to graduating from high school. It means your application will be considered, but it doesn't mean that you will necessarily be accepted. The Oscar voters are like your high school, but the "admissions office" is the board of governors.

    The 322 invitees this year is in fact an unusually high number: it's typically 100 or even fewer. The high number of invitees, and the relatively high demographic diversity within that group, is the result of AMPAS taking heat for being a self-selecting elitist club of old white guys. So they decided to do something about it and invite more people from a broader cross-section of the industry this year. Is this still confusing? (talk) 20:51, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it's still confusing. I "get" the whole analogy: a high school graduate seeking admission to college is analogous to the Oscar winner who seeks membership in AMPAS. (Actually, vice-versa: the Oscar winner is analogous to the high school graduate.) A lot of people want to get in, but only a select few will be able to get it. I get that part of it. What my original question was getting at was: do they use simply subjective criteria? Or are there any objective criteria? If they use merely subjective criteria, then the whole thing is quite arbitrary. I suspect they don't want that (i.e., you, as an Oscar winner, have merely a random chance of being admitted into AMPAS). If two people win a Best Actor Oscar, why would one be admitted to AMPAS and another be denied? Seems very arbitrary and random. Is the whole thing simply a popularity contest? Hollywood politics? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:10, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes, apparently something like that, it is a secretive organization (there's not even a published list of members) and as mentioned above, it's been accused of being an old boy network. This year's large incoming group really does seem to have been a response to that criticism, from what I've been reading. (talk) 21:14, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
As a further answer, AMPAS is basically a trade association, and as such it picks members who it thinks are likely to advance the association's interests. This led to inbreeding which the association was smart enough to recognize as counterproductive. The large number of non-US invitees in the current list would seem to indicate someone figured out that there is a film industry in places outside Hollywood. (talk) 00:12, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
If you're an old white man, your chances are still better than a young black woman's, but young black women stand a better chance than ever next time, if the Academy truly wants to appear to shake this reputation. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:33, June 29, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:41, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

need a race name/specie name for my book[edit]

ok so i'm writing a book and i'm stuck.i need a fictional race name that fits with an anthropomorphic wolf with yellow stripes/markings.this book is about war so no friendly race names please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BalanceKeeper (talkcontribs) 12:11, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Category:Fictional species and races and Category:Fictional warrior races might be a useful starting point. ("Species" singular, incidentally). I would recommend at least one apostrophe and a high consonant/vowel ratio. Tevildo (talk) 12:57, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
If he's got yellow stripes, maybe "Chicken Wolf"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:34, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
That reminds me - what are those things that advertise Anchor cheese supposed to be? Bees? Apes? Cows or mice, one could understand, but... Tevildo (talk) 17:38, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
They're 'Hugglers' says this advertising blah. Nanonic (talk) 18:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps something related to Lupus/Lupine such as Lupic/Lupii/Lupia? Nanonic (talk) 18:06, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Or going the other way - Canidae, Aureus (from Golden/Yellow), Cakalli (Albanian for Golden Jackal). Nanonic (talk) 18:10, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Using something based on Lupus would have the advantage of easy derogatory nicknames: "Loops" (as in Fruit Loops) or "Loopies". Canidians? Nah, too friendly and apologetic. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:08, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Anthropomorphic wolves? How about "Lawrtals" or "Lartals" after Lawrence Talbot. Heh. (talk) 22:52, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
1) Maybe something referencing the Thylacine (aka Tasmanian Tiger or Tasmanian Wolf). "The Thylacoid Empire - putting the Mars in Marsupial"
2) Its your call, but just because the book is about war needn't mean that the race has to have a warlike name. Presumably they don't spend all their time fighting. (And if they do, maybe they get a ephemistic name, like The Kindley Ones. Iapetus (talk) 15:01, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

another AMPAS membership question (actually two)[edit]

The 322-invitee list linked above mentions that 7 of the invitees were invited by more than one AMPAS branch, and have to choose which branch they want to join. How does that happen? Do people working in multiple fields apply for the branch they really want, plus one or more "backups"? Are some branch memberships more valuable or interesting than others? Do you get to go to different parties or get other benefits depending on which branch you're in, or is it just a matter of which Oscars you get to vote on? If someone got multiple invitations, does it become public later which one they accepted? If it matters, I'm thinking of Mathilde Bonnefoy who got invited by the Documentary and Film Editor branches. I updated her article about this but it seemed awkward to have to write up the details. And I'm wondering which invitation she's more likely to take.

Also, is it possible to switch branches after you're already a member, or become a member of more than one branch? E.g. Clint Eastwood started out as an actor and later became a director. I don't know if he was actually ever an Academy member in either branch, but imagine that he was originally in the actor branch. (talk) 21:03, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually yet another question: do members have to pay dues, and how much are they? (talk) 21:11, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Excellent questions. (To which I have no answers.) However, you stated: "Do people working in multiple fields apply for the branch they really want, plus one or more 'backups'?" That's a good question. But, I imagine that there are cases where a person does not affirmatively apply at all, but simply gets invited. So, perhaps two branches (or more) extend an invitation to the person, and the person never applied at all to begin with. Maybe that's possible? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:17, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
I got the impression from reading that you have to actually apply. Bonnefoy has never been nominated for an editing Oscar, so she would have had to round up two sponsors from the editing branch, which I suspect is less close-knit than the documentary branch. And I suspect that the editing branch is the one she really wanted, since she's worked on a lot of fiction films but has only been involved with a couple documentaries that I know of. One of them (Citizenfour, which won the documentary Oscar) was very significant but the other (the Invisibles segment) sounds sort of obscure. (talk) 22:06, 28 June 2015 (UTC)


What film stock was Walkabout shot on? The colours are beautiful. DuncanHill (talk) 22:09, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

According to IMDb, Eastmancolor. According to List of motion picture film stocks, the only Eastmancolor stock in use in 1971 was 5385/7385. However, this is a deduction based on unreliable data, not a definitive answer. Tevildo (talk) 22:35, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. DuncanHill (talk) 23:20, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Just to add, it's just finished (I was watching it on telly) and the credits said Eastmancolor. Roeg is a master of colour of course, but there is something about the colour in some films from the late 60s, early 70s which I find particularly evocative. DuncanHill (talk) 23:41, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Good question, to which I don't have an answer. Various sources refer to the quote, but without attempting to identify the narrator. I listened to the ending on youtube but couldn't pin the voice down. I'd say it was an "educated" Australian voice, probably a professional actor. Best I can do. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 00:34, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
OK, thanks for trying. DuncanHill (talk) 10:27, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I couldn't recognise it either. As Jack says, "educated" Australian voice (or possible a New Zealand one, for that matter). but other than that, I couldn't place it. Worth it to watch the, erm, scenery in that scene though :) Grutness...wha? 13:13, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

June 29[edit] log in member pay?[edit]

If I log in via my Facebook account in order to watch videos on, will I have to pay for it or is it really free? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 03:28, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

If you have not given them any means to receive money from you, the worst that could happen from logging in is that they tell you that you can't watch something. They appear to be owned by a legitimate company, so it should probably be safe to at least try. Facebook also requires companies to clarify what logging in will let them do with your Facebook account: being able to whatever is on your profile is not uncommon. Like other services, may try to show you advertisements before and during whatever you're watching to cover their costs.
I will note that blocked me from trying to watch anything because I'm in North America. They may also block your location, especially if you're using the IP addressed you used to ask your question. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:42, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

music intervals[edit]

moved from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities#music intervals96.52.0.249 (talk) 13:47, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Thirteenth chord inversions.png

Why is the 13th and 9th flat in the first inversion? (talk) 02:12, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

First, they're not. They're minor but they're natural. In the literal notation the flats are just someone's way to signal that the 9th and the 13th are minor, but that notation is ambiguous. The author of that image is User:Hyacinth. Second, this image is not used in the article you linked to but in Thirteenth. Third, music questions go to the Entertainment Reference Desk Contact Basemetal here 10:39, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Are you trying to learn about music or to correct a single image? To do the former one might have to read about flats, minor, and chords.
For the latter, a flat means one should lower something a semitone. Anything minor has something lowered a semitone (major chord: C,E,G; minor chord: C,Eb,G. In semitones: 0,4,7; 0,3,7.), thus a flat may be used to indicate something is minor, and is, in at least one system of notation. See chord symbol.
For a metaphor, compare music notation to spelling in the English language (and many others), there may be historical explanations, but it still doesn't make sense.
Hyacinth (talk) 23:26, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

June 30[edit]

Britney Spears - Scandal[edit]

I remember that there was an old scandal (between 1997-2000 I think) of britney because she was topless in clip - I think the clip was "Don't Let Me Be the Last to Know". However I didn't find any newpaper on the internet, not in wikipedia - and felt hopeless - perhaps I wrong... I also remember that her mother sued the company because Spears was a teenage - Someone remember it? what was the song? The best would be a link to newspaper... -- (talk) 15:54, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Non-standard ways to qualify musical intervals?[edit]

I seem to remember reading (possibly in one of Rameau's own theoretical writings) that he proposed somewhere to call (what we call) a major 7th an augmented 7th. For consistency's sake the consequences would have to be (what we call) a minor 7th would have to be called just a 7th, or a possibly a perfect 7th ("une 7ème juste"), (what we call) a minor 2nd would have to be called a diminished 2nd and (what we call) a major 2nd would have to be called just a 2nd, or a perfect 2nd ("une 2nde juste"). But strangely I don't recall reading explicit statements to that effect.

So was it all a bad dream, or am I really remembering something?

Note that such a system (whether it was really proposed or used by anyone or was just a hallucination of mine) would be just as self-consistent as our usual system (the inversion of minor would be major, the inversion of diminished would be augmented, the inversion of perfect would be perfect, diminished would be one chromatic semitone below minor or perfect, augmented would be one chromatic semitone above major or perfect and diminished, minor, perfect, major, augmented would follow each other on the cycle of rising 5th). But in such a system only the 3rd and the 6th could be minor or major, all other intervals would be perfect (or diminished, augmented, etc.) So it wouldn't be enough to dismiss this on the grounds that Rameau couldn't have proposed such an absurd system. In fact as far as I can recall he justifies his proposal carefully. On the other hand that too could be part of a midsummer nightmare.

Note also that there already is an alternative system to our usual system that I have without any doubt seen used by some continental Europeans and that goes in the other direction: in that system (what we call) a perfect 4th is called a minor 4th, (what we call) an augmented 4th is called a major 4th, (what we call) a diminished 5th is called a minor 5th, (what we call) a perfect 5th is called a major 5th, and so on. That system too is completely coherent but there the only perfect interval is the unison, all other are either major or minor (or diminshed, augmented, etc.)

Does any of this ring a bell?

Contact Basemetal here 16:48, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Minor and major 4th (i.e. perfect and augmented 4th) were used by Mozart, as can be seen in a chart of intervals in Thomas Attwood's theoretical and compositional studies with him. However, he calls the diminished and perfect 5th respectively the false and true 5ths. The modification making them minor and major 5ths makes it more coherent, but I haven't seen it. If you find it, a link would be highly appreciated!
Calling the minor 7th a "perfect 7th" is a bit odd, to me. I'd prefer to let "minor 7th" denote the 12-ET interval, close to 9:5 (the 5-limit one) or 16:9 (the Pythagorean one), and let "perfect 7th" mean the harmonic seventh 7:4. But since 7-limit tuning mentions that Rameau considered 7:4 to be a dissonant interval, I have a hard time imagining why he would call it a perfect 7th, so I confess that I am at a loss. Double sharp (talk) 14:57, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Here, on p. 22 you can see the guy uses minor and perfect 5ths (for our diminished and perfect 5ths) and major and perfect 4ths (for our augmented and perfect 4ths). Actually in French they're not "perfect" but "true" ("juste"). So not exactly Mozart's system. Not exactly what I remembered and what you're asking a link for either. Yet for some reason that little work was one of the places I thought I remembered minor/major 5ths and major/minor 4ths. So this is not the link you wanted but it's going in the right direction Face-smile.svg I'll keep looking. I'm almost certain I've seen minor/major 4ths and minor/major 5ths, if not here (obviously) then elsewhere. As to Rameau like I said I am really not sure. From what I faintly remember he wanted to avoid having the augmented 7th ("septième superflue"? that would be ironic!) be the interval that's enharmonic to the 8ve because he was claiming that interval "doesn't exist" (?) and proposed renaming our major 7th into augmented 7th and that was his main motivation. One of the thing I seem to remember is that I came away thinking it was a "good" feature of this system that only the 3rd and the 6th could be major/minor. Note also what I remember is it was a speculative proposal, not the system he actually used. But all of this is so blurred that I really can't seriously affirm anything. Maybe one day I'll wade through "Traité de l'harmonie" and "Nouveau système" here to try and figure out what the hell it is I'm talking about. Contact Basemetal here 16:55, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Note: The observations in my first post about the coherence of those non-standard systems for qualifying musical intervals, the relation between them and the order of intervals on the circle of 5ths, etc only make sense if we're only talking Pythagorean intervals but those observations about coherence, etc are entirely mine, they don't belong to Rameau's discussion (or anyone else's). So it is entirely possible that certain proposals on qualifying musical intervals concern themselves with natural intervals that are outside the Pythagorean system just like you're suggesting. Contact Basemetal here 17:14, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Here you can read at the bottom of the page (which is p. 721 of the book): "La quinte diminuée se nomme quelquefois quinte mineure, et la quinte juste, quinte majeure". If you Google the equivalent of "major fifth" and "minor fifth" in continental European languages ("quinte majeure", "quinte mineure" in French, "große Quinte", "kleine Quinte" in German, etc) you may be able to find other examples. In any case that's how I located the link I've just given here. Of course you're bound to find relatively old sources as I believe nowadays the English usage has become pretty much universal ("quarte juste", "quarte augmentée", "quinte diminuée", "quinte juste" in French, "reine Quarte", "übermäßige Quarte", "verminderte Quinte", "reine Quinte" in German, and so on) Contact Basemetal here 00:05, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

July 1[edit]

Olympics opening and closing ceremonies[edit]

An odd question I've been musing about for a day or two... At Olympic opening ceremonies there is always some big artistic performance depicting the history of the games or the country which pas playing host - all practiced at the main stadium in secret for several days before the ceremony. All well and good - but there is often a similar, if smaller, performance at the closing ceremony (ISTR that Barcelona in the 1990s had a huge fire festival and all sorts of other stuff during their closing ceremony). How and where are these rehearsed? I can't see how they could be rehearsed at the main stadium, since it would be in use for athletics in the final days of an Olympics. I also can't see them being rehearsed before the games, leaving a gap of two and a half weeks before performance. Do they somehow find down-time at the main venue, e.g., late at night after the events have finished? Or is the rehearsal all done at other venues and then all the necessary equipment and props moved en masse before the closing ceremony (a logistics nightmare, I'd imagine)? Thanks in advance for any answers... Grutness...wha? 13:05, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

For the most recent one, see 2012 Summer Olympics opening ceremony. "Rehearsals began in earnest in spring 2012 at an open-air site at Dagenham (the abandoned Ford plant)...Two full dress and technical rehearsals took place in the Olympic stadium on 23 and 25 July." Edit: oh wait, you're only asking about the closing ceremony. Scrub that, then. --Viennese Waltz 13:16, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
From 2012 Summer Olympics closing ceremony: " There had been around 15 rehearsals for the volunteers at the Three Mills Studio and at a full-scale site in Dagenham, East London." --Viennese Waltz 13:32, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
OK - cheers. Grutness...wha? 01:08, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Ape Ejaculation[edit]

(Question moved to science desk, Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#Ape_Ejaculation. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:53, 1 July 2015 (UTC))

What kind of computer did Jerry have in his apt. on Seinfeld?[edit] (talk) 15:39, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

A mac of some sort, see here [67]. They say it was a Macintosh Performa, some other sources say it was a Macintosh SE. It seems like there were a few different Macs on the show, this page [68] lists several models used throughout the run. If you have a specific one in mind, someone here can probably identify it based on a picture and episode number. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:14, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I had no particular episode in mind, I just noticed last night that the background of my Roku had an image of Seinfeld's apartment in coordination with the show being promoted on one of the streaming channels, and I saw the computer, which made me wonder the question. Thanks. (talk) 16:42, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Ah, then make sure you read the first link. Your Roku might have been showing the promotional Seinfeld apartment that Hulu made up recently, and for a while at least was showing the wrong computer (i.e. not one that was shown on the show), and instead had some generic 90's windows PC. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:18, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

July 2[edit]

Mr. Pine[edit]

In the third minute of "Mr. Pine" by the first version of Renaissance, a track otherwise unfamiliar to me, there's a familiar melody played on organ. Is it reused in a later Renaissance track, maybe "Ashes Are Burning"? —Tamfang (talk) 17:59, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

It's used in "Running Hard", on the same album: Illusion. According to the article, the theme is based on Jehan Alain's Litanies pour orgue. (judge for yourself, but, admittedly, maybe I'm not exactly certain about which excerpt you mean). ---Sluzzelin talk 18:12, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Abdel-Kader Zaaf[edit]

Was cyclist Abdel-Kader Zaaf, who was riding in the 1950's a black or white. My second question is was he French or Algerian? My Third question is the who is first black African to participat or ride in Tour de France? My last question who is the first cyclist to ever compete in Tour de France?— Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 21:49, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Our French Wikipedia page on him says he was born in Algeria, but had French nationality. Photographs of him [69] [70] suggest he was dark-skinned, but whether he was "black African" (i.e., of sub-Saharan descent) seems difficult to say - more likely he was of Berber ancestry. By the way, he competed before 1950, in 1948 - but was eliminated after just one stage. Grutness...wha? 01:28, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Women's Water Polo[edit]

I was interested to note that the British Women's Water polo team for the 2012 Olympics (Great Britain women's national water polo team) had no one in common with the team at Baku 2015 [71]. So how long is a typical national team member likely to be in the team?

And then I noticed that the ages of the 2012 team are about 8 years greater than that of the 2015 team, even though playing only 3 years apart. What is normal? -- SGBailey (talk) 23:37, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't know, but given that they are that much younger, I would assume that the water polo federation is not taking the European games very seriously and sending a youth/B team. This is happening in many sports. Fgf10 (talk) 07:09, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

July 3[edit]

Variety Club of Great Britain awards[edit]

The Variety Club of Great Britain (the link directs, not especially helpfully, to an article about the overarching international charity) used to hold an annual luncheon where a range of awards were handed out - here is the 1964 list, for instance. The organisation was apparently set up in Britain in 1948 - - but, at some point, the awards ceremony seems to have ceased. Here is a picture of a 1980 award. Does anyone know any more about the history of these awards? More particularly, does anyone have a list of the winners? The obits for Val Doonican say that he won the award for BBC TV Personality - one of the Variety Club awards - three times, but I can't find any independent verification of that. At the time - presumably up to the 1980s - the awards were quite widely reported in the UK, but they have now been superseded by the Brits, BAFTA, soap awards, etc., etc. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:04, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

The latest one I can find is 2010 - this is the IMDb entry for Channel 5's broadcast of it. Searching for "variety club showbiz awards 2011" (and subsequent years) doesn't come up with anything useful, but neither have I been able to find any official mention of their discontinuance. Tevildo (talk) 15:15, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
What an interesting question. I haven't found the answer, but I have found the website for the Royal Variety Charity, and I wonder if they will be able to point you in the right direction if you email them? --TammyMoet (talk) 15:32, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Do we know if the Royal Variety Charity is the same as Variety, the Children's Charity? I suspect they are separate organisations. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:41, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, they're different. The Royal Variety Charity used to be called the Entertainment Artistes' Benevolent Fund, according to this Rojomoke (talk) 19:49, 3 July 2015 (UTC)


June 28[edit]

Angolan centenarian refugees[edit]

Erculano Salugardo, born July 29 1911 was reported to be oldest Angolan refugee in June 2012 when he lived in Zambia. After that I haven't found any report in his possible death. I'd like to know his possible death date if someone could help me in that.

Plus Silva Kawanda was reported to be 107 year old in February 2005 when she returned to Angola but I haven't found her date of death either. Could someone help me find that too? (talk) 15:41, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

June 29[edit]

ISIS execution video[edit]

I saw the video with the latest string of executions.

On one of the segments, men were lowered in a cage into a pool. When they came out, they had huge amounts of foam from their mouths. Why does that happen, what is this foam? I really didn't expect that at all from a drowning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 20:15, 29 June 2015‎ (UTC)

Foaming from a drowning victim is common, particularly I think if they were removed from the water before they stopped breathing. See [72], [73], [74], [75] (warning some of these contain images, I presume no worse then the video so fine for the OP, but perhaps not for others) for example. Nil Einne (talk) 20:48, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
So what exactly causes the foaming? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:06, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Well, when they can't hold their breath anymore and breath and exhale water, that should provide the agitation necessary to form foam. Pure water wouldn't foam up, but invariably the water will contain impurities, which do foam up when agitated. See sea foam for some specifics of the impurities. StuRat (talk) 22:12, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Try blowing water out of your mouth in the bathtub. Unless you're superman, you won't make foam. Even powerful jacuzzi jets only make temporary bubbles. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:48, June 29, 2015 (UTC)
If there's shampoo in the bathwater it sure will. And shampoo is just one of many things in water that cause foam. Somehow I doubt if ISIS ensures that the water is spotlessly clean. And even if it was to start with, it won't remain that way with all those people dying in it (see the comment below about sputum). StuRat (talk) 02:47, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Shampoo, sure. And under the right conditions, maybe a man can create organic sea foam with his mouth. But the likely answer is the usual one. And foamy lung gunk's a "typical sign of drowning". According to that source, what makes it come out of the mouth is the shift in air pressure when the torso leaves the water. Sort of like exhaling, but you don't have to be alive for this sort. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:12, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
Note that mountain climbers who die from low atmospheric pressure also cough up foam during the process, in this case pink foam because blood leaks out in the lungs and mixes with air and sputum. StuRat (talk) 13:13, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Yep. Pulmonary edema's the root of both. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:04, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
When water hits the vocal folds, you go into laryngospasm. This spasming froths up sputum from the lungs and throat. You can dry drown this way without water ever reaching your lungs. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:46, June 29, 2015 (UTC)

Information about the owners of media companies[edit]

Whenever I read world news, I often check from Wikipedia who the owners of the media companies are. Recently I have found no information about it from Wikipedia. It might be accidental, nevertheless I decided to ask you to be sure. Has there been any policy change in publishing names of the owners in the articles about different companies? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andri Ksenofontov (talkcontribs) 22:28, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Give us an example? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:30, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
The only relevant policy is that information in Wikipedia articles should be cited to reliable published sources. It is possible that names have been removed because they were not sourced. It is also possible that somebody has been going round articles removing sourced information for their own reasons. A third possibility is that you have happened to look at articles where the ownership had never been reported. We can't tell without examples. --ColinFine (talk) 08:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
It's also possible that our rules about biographical information relating to living persons ("BLP") is an issue here. When we write something about someone who is still alive, we're required to be extra-specially careful that what we say is correct and well if there wasn't very reliable information about who these people are, we'd back off and remove the information. SteveBaker (talk) 02:51, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

June 30[edit]


Pls Wikipedia, i need a list of companies who have floating dry docks in Asia (talk) 10:37, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Google is your friend.--Aspro (talk) 19:35, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Hand drawn lettering in newspaper[edit]

A caption for a pic in my newspaper has mostly machine printed letters, but 4 letters in the middle of the sentence appear to be hand drawn. This baffles me. Could it actually have been printed like this or did somebody go over the letters after with a pen ? I can't imagine it's cost effective to manually correct a printing defect like that. StuRat (talk) 14:40, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I think you'll have to post a picture to give any hope of getting a good answer. In the mean time, there are plenty of types of printing error (redlink?), e.g. color bleeding, and there are a number of potential problems discussed at Offset printing. Could also just be a human mistake and not a printing error, maybe a few characters got turned to comic sans or some other handwriting typeface and got printed correctly. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:52, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Maybe some form of color bleeding, but far worse than the pics in that article. The ink from each letter is almost over to the next. StuRat (talk) 18:27, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

.22 rifle ammo[edit]

Is it safe to shoot .22 LR ammo from a rifle that specifies .22 Long cartridges?Jevardaman (talk) 17:18, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

It is never safe to rely on advice from random strangers on the internet when dealing with issues regarding firearms. I suggest you contact the manufacturers of the rifle if you are unsure as to what ammunition it is designed for. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:31, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Ditto to the above. For one thing, An LR has more powder than the long and so the rifle will not be proofed for this. See (in person) a qualified gunsmith. Longs are still available (one can even assemble the rounds oneself and gun clubs often have the required tools).--Aspro (talk) 19:56, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Also. Firearms are like automobiles. As they age they can wear and become dangerous. Find a gunsmith that is willing to show you and explain: if this is an old gun that has only done 10,000 miles or an old gun that has been twice round the clock and should be mounted on the wall as just an ornament.--Aspro (talk) 20:21, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I love the timidness about answering firearms questions. Anyway, .22 LR has a larger overall length than .22 long. So the answer is no. The chamber is too short for the .22 LR. Even if you can get the LR chambered, the tip of the projectile may be jammed into the rifling prior to shooting, which may raise pressures and cause safety concerns in older rifles. So just buy some .22 Longs online. Hopes this helps. Justin15w (talk) 15:49, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Can we identify this spiky woojitah?[edit]

I found this on display in the museum in Great Torrington,England.They have had it on display for a year and no-one knows what the hell it is. Some sort of wool gatherer has been suggested as we're in farming country,or a marker for sheep possibly? Any ideas very much appreciated,so it can at least be labelled. A museum piece stating 'Unknown Thingy' isn't too impressive... Lemon martini (talk) 18:46, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Looks like a head scratcher [76], just do a google image search for more related pics. On a closer look, it seems the tines might be able to open/close by manipulating the center rod and slider thing. If it does have moving parts, then perhaps some sort of whisk that can be re-sized for different tasks. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:56, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Can you tell us the scale? I had been assuming 6-8 inches diameter of the spread tines, but I might have been way off. Also you can try asking at - probably gets more and more varied views than we do here. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:00, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
It looks to me like a fruit picker of some sort. DuncanHill (talk) 19:14, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Aye. Probably something small, that grows among thorny/itchy/otherwise annoying leaves. Berries or something. Just a guess, though. At first glance, I thought sheep, but quite unsure what it would do to one. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:10, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
I was thinking more on the line of pears, I've seen similar (tho' not similar enough to be certain) things in the kitchen gardens of old country houses. DuncanHill (talk) 23:24, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Could be. The only thing like it I can remember actually seeing in use is the headscratcher dealy Mantis noted. That struck me as a modern invention, but I'd also figured the fax machine was invented after the American Civil War, so what do I know? InedibleHulk (talk) 23:28, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
It looks to me like sliding that central shaft up and down would move all the tines together to close on something, like the arcade game where you try to grab a toy out of a bin. So, now the Q is what it's supposed to close on. I'm thinking something roughly spherical, that you wouldn't want to grab by hand, like a prickly pear. Perhaps something too hot to touch is another possibility. StuRat (talk) 19:20, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Semantic Mantis had the scale right-diameter is approx 8 inches. Perhaps something to grip things out of the fire with?-although the spikes seem a little shallow for that.I shall crosspost over on reddit and see what else springs to mind. Thanks for all the ideas... Lemon martini (talk) 19:28, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
It's a circular knitting machine cast on tool. They are quite common on ebay and go for about £10. Page 16 of this manual shows how to use it. --TrogWoolley (talk) 11:05, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

July 1[edit]

Surnames on US Army uniforms[edit]

Did US Army uniforms have names over the pockets during the Korean War? I'm referring to the olive drab BDUs, not the Class As. The question occurred to me as I was watching an episode of M*A*S*H and I can't seem to find anything via searches. Thanks, Dismas|(talk) 03:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

I had a look around and found this. So it appears as though name tape (which looks to be the correct name for them) was in use at the end of the Korean war. Gunrun (talk) 16:24, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I'll have to take your word for that since Google won't let me read that without buying it. Dismas|(talk) 20:13, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I find that often when a Google Books link produces "You have reached your viewing limit for this book", it actually will let me read it if I just click the button to change the size. That worked for me in this case. The book is U.S. Army Uniforms of the Cold War, 1948–1973 by Shelby L. Stanton. In the context of field and work uniforms, it says (on pages 126 and 130):
The "U.S. ARMY" distinguishing insignia was authorized on 27 October 1953 and worn above the left pocket on the jacket. The woven label had golden yellow lettering on a black background. A name tape was added by local unit directives above the right pocket and contained the soldier's last name. Early name tapes were often in branch colors but most were made of white engineer tape with black lettering. Effective 14 July 1966 DA directed that both tapes have black lettering on Olive Green shade 107 cloth.
So the book isn't explicit about when the name tape was added, but if it was initially a matter of "local unit directives" then it sounds as if some units would have had them before others. -- (talk) 06:45, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
But if you do a Google image search for photos of "Mobile army surgical korea", you'll find bunches of pictures of people in real MASH units - (eg and I didn't see name-tags on any of them. SteveBaker (talk) 20:52, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the responses and references. The bit about white tape with black lettering reminds me of something I heard years ago about the white tape being changed to a darker color because enemy soldiers would see the white more easily and aim for it. Thanks again, Dismas|(talk) 12:35, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Restaurant incubators[edit]

With mobile apps for ordering delivered food I am wondering if anyone has started a sort of incubator for restaurants. By this I mean the incubator is like a cubicle farm of kitchens with each kitchen cubicle essentially being an individual restaurant kitchen. Each of these kitchen restaurants offer menus and take orders from their mobile app page. All of these kitchen restaurants share the same pool of takeout delivery drivers located at the incubator. Muzzleflash (talk) 12:58, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

We have articles Business incubator and Kitchen incubator. The latter seems to have some external links at the bottom that might list some extant examples, not sure if any of them work precisely as you describe. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:57, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
  • I have a dim memory of reading, within the past few years, of such a project in New York(?) which was shut down essentially because the model doesn't fit the relevant Procrustean regulatory boxes. —Tamfang (talk) 07:23, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Your suggested model is rather limiting. What if someone wants to pick up an order? What if someone wants to sit and eat? If you remove those limitations, you end up with something like the Food Court at the Reagan Building in Washington DC. It is a food court. There are multiple little cubbies along the wall, each housing a small restaurant. You can go to one and get food. There are multiple tables to eat at, regardless of which restaurant you get food from. You can get a to-go order. You can also order delivery service from one of many Washington DC delivery services (which costs a fee for delivery and a tip is still expected). My opinion is that stripping away the ability to stop by and pick up an order will make the entire model rather unattractive to a restaurant owner as what you are offering is essentially a food truck that cannot go anywhere and is limited to delivery only. (talk) 16:27, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Where is a good safe place for a 31 year woman with aspergers in Vancouver Canada to meet a man with the same condition to date?[edit]

I don't know where to start. Venustar84 (talk) 19:28, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

If you Google the phrase: "meetup aspergers Vancouver Canada", you'll see that there are at least 4 or 5 groups who support people with Aspergers syndrome who meet in that area. Those groups are great places to meet people in similar situations - and providing you're sure that a reasonable number of people are going to show up, and that the meeting is in a public place, they are very safe places to meet and chat with people.
From my brief history of attending such meetups in Austin, TX (I'm a high-functioning aspie myself) - I feel that I should remind you that Aspergers' is a spectrum condition - meaning that you'll meet people who range from the lucky 'high-functioning' types through to the less fortunate people with rather severe problems holding their lives together.
It's worth remembering that most 'aspies' (even the high-functioning kind) find it hard to form relationships at the best of times - and when two aspies try to make it together in life, it can be doubly hard. That said, the bond of mutual understanding is worth having.
Some of those groups are intended mainly for parents of Asperger children - and you'll probably want to avoid those. Aside from the fact that you're unlikely to meet a man with the same condition at one of those events, the parents tend to be dead set on 'fixing' what they see as 'broken' children rather than trying to understand and support them - and that can get REALLY annoying for those of us who are victims - doubly so for those of us who do not accept the utterly debunked theory that autism & aspergers is caused by vaccinations or diet or...whatever crazy theory it is this time around. <sigh>.
On the plus side, aspergers occurs predominantly in males - so you'll undoubtedly find more men than women in these groups.
Good luck in your hunt!
SteveBaker (talk) 20:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
In addition to specific meetups for people with Asperger's, you might also do well just to check out hobby groups and meetings that may attract a certain type of people that you might get along with. For instance, I know some people on the Autism spectrum that are highly involved with various types of Maker_culture clubs. Some are really into role playing games, either pen & paper, or computer-based, or things like Magic The Gathering, etc. Another person I know is really into exotic pets - ferrets specifically. Science also seems to attract many people on the spectrum, but that's just my WP:OR. Anyway, I don't know what you're into and maybe none of those are your cup of tea, but my main point is that you might have just as much luck going to groups that are based around your interests, rather than based around your condition. Indeed, if you have a condition and like a certain activity, others who share your condition may like the same activity. I assume you're aware of online dating, but I'll also point out that you can search sites like OK Cupid for Aspie, Asperger's, etc.; it seems that many people on the site declare their status and interest in seeking same. SemanticMantis (talk) 21:23, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
To add my ObPersonal tuppenceworth: active Science Fiction Fandom includes a noticeably high proportion of people variously positioned on the spectrum, so you could check out any local SF/Fantasy fan clubs, and perhaps try attending a Convention for a day if one happens conveniently near you (I'd recommend going for smaller rather than larger, and fan-organised rather than commercial). I can't guarantee that no-one at all in Fandom that you might meet might be predatory, but the community is increasingly aware of harassment issues and many convention committees are introducing explicit anti-harassment policies (since in the modern world, sadly, courteous behaviour can no longer be taken as read.) {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 13:01, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

July 2[edit]

Table EE Pending GRG Cases[edit]

Why isn't the November update ready yet? This is the third week I have been waiting for it and still no November update? I don't know my anonymous IP address on Wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:26, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Which article are you referring to? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:57, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Possibly a reference to this table? If so, there's no way we can know the answer to your question. You will need to use the contact email given on that page.--Shantavira|feed me 08:52, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
As you were told last time you asked, we have no idea since we are not involved with the site. You will need to contact people involved in the site. If you've tried and didn't receive a reply or have even been put on an auto-ignore list, you shouldn't be surprised since it's unresonable to get that anxious or demanding for a resource which you aren't even paying for. Nil Einne (talk) 15:56, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

July 3[edit]