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July 19[edit]

Can Ipad Pro 12.9" watch netflix?[edit]

I wanted to buy a Ipad Pro 12.9" to watch netflix but when I looked into the wiki article about ipad it did not mention whether ipad pro 12.9" can watch netflix. I rather not spend $969 just to find out that it cannot watch netflix. Has anyone managed to watch netflix on it yet? (talk) 00:43, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Any iOS device, including the iPad, should be able to watch Netflix streams using the Netflix app. iOS is a platform officially supported by Netflix. (You need a Netflix account of course.) -- (talk) 03:43, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
I see. But can I watch Netflix using the split screen function where I can watch Netflix on one half of the screen while playing Pokemon Go on the other half of the screen? (talk) 06:43, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Netflix is definitely available on iPad, including iPad Pro. It works perfectly well in full-screen mode, and the Netflix software app has limited support for some of the newest iOS multitasking features.
Presently, (as of Netflix 8.9.1 (9)) for iOS, split screen is not supported by Netflix's software application. The iPad Pro hardware is powerful enough to smoothly display other video applications in split-screen or in Picture-in-Picture mode, and you can multitask (including using the camera or playing Pokemon Go) while watching videos from other apps (including web-based videos in Safari). Here's official documentation: Multitasking on your iPad....
But Netflix will pause video playback when you enable any multitasking features. As far as I am aware, Netflix requires full-screen playback on all other competitive mobile platforms, too. (I really suspect this mandate for full-screen-only playback is a bizarre artifact of their content license agreements, but I have little actual evidence to support that suspicion).
Perhaps in the long term, Netflix will make software changes to permit split-screen multitasking. If you are a Netflix subscriber, you can provide feedback to Netflix's customer support team to politely ask them to expedite this feature, via their in-application feedback system.
For now, when I need to watch Netflix while playing Pokemon Go, I have to use two iPad Pros, which can be a bit of a handful.
Nimur (talk) 13:02, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Folders in Eclipse[edit]

Hi, I have a lot of Java projects in Eclipse, and I want to organize them into categories, using "folders" (maybe there's other name for this in Eclipse?). For example, in one folder I'll put Java projects that I've created for homework, in other folder I'll put Java projects that I've created just for fun, etc. How to create such folders in Eclipse? Thanks in advance! (talk) 07:10, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

In project view, right click > New > Folder.Hofhof (talk) 23:39, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Development environment for remote text-only linux system[edit]

I have custom software that runs on a remote linux-based system without X windows enabled. Most of the time when I am doing development I mirror the software on a local machine and use a natural development environment for whatever I am working on. However, it isn't always practical to run everything locally. So sometimes I end up either repeatedly A) editing locally, saving, copying to the remote machine, then running, or B) editing on the remote machine using a basic text editor. Either approach works, but isn't wonderful. In the first case, I have extra steps copying over files constantly and in the second case I'm stuck with a basic editor without syntax highlighting or other helpful aids. What are some tools to make this easier? I'm thinking an editor that allows files to be opened and saved directly over SFTP might just be a good start. I'm supporting three different programming languages right now, so something more general would probably be best (perhaps with plugins that aid specific languages). Dragons flight (talk) 13:19, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Just to throw out some options you might not have already covered:
  • GNU Screen permits session persistence and terminal multi-tasking (on the remote server). It is incredibly powerful, but it has the user-friendliness you would expect from a mishmash of emacs- and bash-. GNU Screen is not for novices; novices will invariably confuse themselves amidst the numerous invisible backgrounded contexts.
  • rsync lets you efficiently synchronize data and documents between machines, transferring only the changed parts of large files (if bandwidth is an issue). It can work over ssh, so it is as secure as the rest of your system.
  • sshfs works very well (on some versions of *nix, *dows, and other *OSes...). It makes any ssh server appear to be a local file system. It has a great user-experience if and only if you have a very fast, low-latency connection to your server
  • Lots of text editors support sftp out of the box. Kate (text editor) works on KDE and has fantastic and intuitive shell integration, too. This simple editor is the core of my home-made integrated development environment when I need to work on "other-than-default" languages and operating-systems, because it's very lightweight and can easily be modified or scripted. Basic syntax highlighting for "unsupported languages" can be easily added: it is trivial to create a brand-new syntax highlighting file and you can make that process as simple or as complicated as you wish, from providing a custom, simple list of keywords that should be colorized, all the way up to whatever level of language parsing theory you want to learn and apply. Shell integration is easy, so you can write a script to, say, rsync local data to the server and then execute it remotely - all from inside your text editor. (If you have a Sun keyboard, by default, the special Enter key on the numeric keypad turns any line of any text-file into a bash shell! This feature can be emulated on some other operating systems and keyboards - use with caution!) You can muck with the command line and the external tools plugin. Similar text editors, like gEdit, provide comparable feature sets - it boils down to user preference.
  • If you have not yet mastered the art of ssh public key exchange (for initiating secure, password-free ssh sessions), learn how to use ssh-keygen (or your *nix system's equivalent, if you're using a different SSL tool set). Here's one tutorial from Berkeley, SSH Public Key Authentication HOWTO (or check your system's man page). Next, be sure you're comfortable with remote command-execution using ssh: this lets you seamlessly blend local- and remote- execution in scripts that execute on your development machine.
A lot of people use fad-of-the-week tools to deploy scripts and executable code to remote programs; but the old tried-and-true methods of source-code management like git and svn tend to be more reliable.
Nimur (talk) 13:36, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks Nimur, that's very useful. Dragons flight (talk) 15:01, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
In addition to all of Nimur's suggestions:
  • Some people advocate tmux rather than GNU Screen
  • Both emacs and VIM have pretty nice text-mode features, including syntax highlighting, and neither is remotely basic. Personally I use emacs in text mode (emacs -nw) even when editing locally, as I find its X11 interface rather naff. You you can just plain ssh to the remote machine and run either of them and have a nice enough experience.
  • Emacs has tramp mode, and vim has netrw mode, which work like the feature of Kate Nimur describes.
  • If the "remote" machine is still pretty local (such as a server in a chilly server room downstairs, that you'd rather not spend the day beside) you can forward X clients from it (to your desktop's display) with ssh -X. That requires that the remote machine have X libraries, but not that it have a graphics card, display, or a running X server. I can't say I'd recommend running a heavy IDE like Eclipse or Netbeans over that, even on a decent LAN or CAN, but needs must when the devil vomits into your kettle.
In general, ssh and rsync are really powerful - combined they are the giant Japanese robot of productivity. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 14:14, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Server is about 9500 km away. Dragons flight (talk) 15:01, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

July 20[edit]

Partitions and Disk Images[edit]

I have two computers that I would like to upgrade from windows 7 and windows 8.1 to windows 10, then, having already made disk images of them, and a restoral disk for the 8.1, return them to 7 & 8.1, and restore the C drives on each to the state on the disk images I intend to create. My understanding is that these hardrives will now be registered with MS for an upgrade to 10 any time in the future, so basically I will stay running 7 & 8.1 for now, but be able to upgrade at my leisure, in say a year or 3?

The computer running 8.1 has only a C Drive, 500GB, of which only about 120GB are used. The Computer running 7 is more Complicated. It has a 100GB SSD "C" and a 1T HD, "D", noth almost full. The question is, if I purchase a 1TB external drive and partition it into a 750 and a 250GB pair, will I be able to create the 100GB disk image in the 250GB partition and the 500GB disk image into the 750GB partition without inherent problems?

And when I create the disk image of the 100GB SSD "c" will it not drag along the 1TB HD "D" unless I click on "D" to do so?

Finally, since I will be restoring the disk images as soon as I have downloaded WIN 10 and then restored WIN 7 ^ 8.1, is there a preferred free software to do this efficiently?

Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 05:37, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

I used Clonezilla to clone a single disk image of a working PC to a USB drive, and then used that cloned image to recreate the same working OS on two identical PCs - so not exactly what you're proposing, but the same method. Despite it appearing rather difficult to use, providing you are methodical and follow the prompts, it works very well. And the answers to your questions: clonezilla only copies used parts of the drive, so you will be able to get your 500GB drive into 750 very easily, ditto 100GB into the 250. Similarly, it will only clone the C drive if that's what you tell it to do.--Phil Holmes (talk) 11:30, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Ehxcellent, thanks. μηδείς (talk) 20:58, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Note that it's not the hard drive that is registered for the "digital entitlement", but a fingerprint of various hardware (most importantly the motherboard). If you have a product key for the Windows installations (typically there's one on a sticker somewhere if the OS came with the machine), a spare internal drive of any size (well, at least 20GB), and a DVD burner or small USB drive, and you don't mind opening up the machines, a faster and safer approach is to unplug the hard drive(s) in the machine, plug in the spare drive, do a clean install of 10, and activate using the product key. This works starting with update 1511. You can use Microsoft's media creation tool to make a bootable DVD or flash drive for the clean install. (Or download an ISO image and burn it to a DVD or use Rufus to put it on a USB drive.) -- BenRG (talk) 18:38, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
I get what you are at, but we tried opening up his machine to change to clean the fans, and just getting the back off it was a nightmare. I'll have no problem with the above method, and he's already ordered the external hard drive for friday delivery.
  • Follow up question, if I use @Phil Holmes: method withe clonezilla, will the external harddrive it uses as the target for making the disk image actually need to be partitioned ahead of time? Or will it just create a folder? Would trying to partition the drive later wipe out such a folder? (I.e., does partioning blank the drive?) μηδείς (talk) 20:58, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
It creates a folder on the target drive with each "disk clone" information. So no need to partition the drive at all - just format it ready for use.--Phil Holmes (talk) 18:41, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Virtual memory without hardware support[edit]

I have read that it is possible (or I might I have read that it is possible to have virtual memory without an MMU). Is this true? — Melab±1 06:17, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Virtual memory can be implemented (slowly) with software. It is not effective. Software is commonly used to enhance virtual memory, not replace the MMU. The real question should be: "Why would you try to implement virtual memory without an MMU?" (talk) 12:43, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
I think that's absolutely correct - software can simulate anything the hardware MMU can do, by application of the Turing equivalence principle. A pertinent follow-up question to this statement might be, "how (in)efficiently could that software be implemented?" That is a much trickier question and it would be architecture-specific; it would also entail a lot of subtle analysis and benchmarking. Software that emulates virtual memory would profoundly affect memory access patterns, which may wreak havoc on any heuristics about spatial locality that are built into the cache hardware. So, a VM simulator that might superficially appear to add only a small fixed performance overhead may actually yield a terrifically bad performance slow-down due to cache thrashing, for example.
As noted above, MMU hardware is widely available, and if the application requires virtual memory, it ought to be running on appropriate hardware with appropriate system memory management software. Nimur (talk) 13:04, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
See [ ] to see someone who emulated a 32-bit ARM CPU and MMU on an 8-bit microcontroller and then booted Linux on it. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:32, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
To implement VM without an MMU basically requires emulating every memory reference instruction. Every instruction that touches memory would have to call a function to determine if that memory location is resident or needs to be loaded from disk. To do this, you'd need to either emulate EVERY instruction, or do some kind of compilation-like step that converts the code into different code, replacing every memory reference with a function call. Either way, the performance will be abysmal compared to running the native code with an MMU to handle nonresident pages, probably many times slower. So while it's possible, using an MMU is vastly preferable. That's why MMUs were invented in the first place. CodeTalker (talk) 16:46, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
A real-world example is the Z-machine used for Infocom interactive fiction. The original implementations (on the Apple II, Commodore 64, etc.) used software paging to load ~128K of code and text into machines with <64K of RAM. I remember reading somewhere that they used 256-byte pages, but I can't find a source for that now. According to this post they used LRU eviction. -- BenRG (talk) 17:38, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
You might want to look at bank switching. This is normally used when the amount of physical RAM is larger than the address bus, but it can also be used for virtual memory. However, bank switching is usually co-operative, bank switching on each context switch is likely to be expensive. LongHairedFop (talk) 18:01, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
There's also overlays. DOS programs used them a lot. Asmrulz (talk) 18:14, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

July 21[edit]

Increasing computer speed[edit]

Where are scientists working on to make computations faster? Where is the bottle neck in computer nowadays? Where was the bottle neck 10 or 20 years back? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hofhof (talkcontribs) 00:02, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

That's a massive topic... how about checking out the most recent issue of XRDS, the ACM's magazine for students interested in computing machinery? It's the premiere review magazine for students in this field, and a good place to start to help you get oriented towards more specific current research topics. Nimur (talk) 00:58, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
CPU power dissipation is the main obstacle to faster sequential computation. The main obstacle to parallel computation is that we're bad at designing parallel algorithms (except for embarrassingly parallel problems). -- BenRG (talk) 07:07, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Alternatively, we could say that the obstacle is that many interesting problems are simply not amenable to parallelization. Kind of tough to say what could be done if we were cleverer, and could develop parallel routines analogous to e.g. god's algorithm. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:48, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
You might be interested in Supercomputer. Vespine (talk) 02:11, 22 July 2016 (UTC)


Is it OK to test 220 volts AC on a single channel Oscilloscope ? (talk) 01:48, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

No it is absolutely not OK to test mains voltage on an oscilloscope, unless you know precisely what you are doing and what safety measures to take. If you need to ask here, don't do it. To answer the question, there are oscilloscopes that CAN be used on mains voltage, it should say on the scope, if you can't see a max voltage, or are uncertain how to read what is written on the scope, don't do it, seek assistance from someone with experience / qualifications. Vespine (talk) 02:05, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
(ec)Probably not. You should check the manual to see what the rating is. A knob on the front for adjusting the gain should also give a clue. Such a voltage is dangerous and could kill you, so you would need appropriate earthing and probe insulation. Instead you could put the mains AC through a step down transformer, say to 5 volts which is likely to be workable with your oscilloscope. Mains AC also has much higher voltage transients due to electric motors turning on and off, so the rating of equipment needs to be much higher to avoid damage. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 02:13, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Live household electric wires at 220 volts can kill you. Do not work with live mains. Do not connect them to your test equipment.
For the most part, there is no good reason to hook up mains lines to an oscilloscope - that type of test equipment is normally used for analyzing much lower-power signals - it's rarely needed for analyzing power lines.
In the exceptional case where detailed analysis of high voltages or high power is required, a special probe called a current clamp is used. This allows a skilled engineer to investigate the high-power system without ever making electrical or physical contact with the mains wire. If you don't know what this is, or how to use it, call an electrician to help you. Death by electrocution is very easy when you're dealing with 220 volt mains lines. Death by electrocution happens very fast, is very unpleasant, and is generally irreversible, so don't play with wires if you have any doubts about the correct safety procedures. Nimur (talk) 03:52, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

July 22[edit]

Audio software[edit]

I have hundreds of film songs which are named as 001, 002, 003...and so on. I want to rename them such as the song file name should be the opening lines of the song. (e.g. If the song begins with 'oh my god' then the song file name should be oh my god.) Is there any software which can do this? Thank you. (talk) 03:00, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

There is software that compares a song against a large database and changes the title to the actual title of that song. It would then need to take an extra step of looking up the lyrics and renaming it as you say. Seems possible, but I doubt if it exists yet. Something else to consider is that the opening lyrics aren't always the most memorable. StuRat (talk) 03:29, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Further, the opening lines of songs are often used repeatedly. I immediately thought of three songs that begin with "Hit me." That doesn't get into covers of songs that will obviously use the same lyrics. So, this tool will need to have a method to handle making file names unique when the opening lines are the same. (talk) 12:50, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
True, but the actual titles are often reused, too, and they may or may not be remakes of the same song. For example, look at all the songs named "Maria". StuRat (talk) 14:08, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

SRMv2: System Restore Manager v2[edit]

1) The Disk Space to use for System Restore based on the top-right-hand-side of the software's window, the GB increments whenever I do a System Restore. Note: I don’t/didn’t install anything for quite some time now, and my Windows Update system is off.

2) Selected Fixed Drive drop-down-list of the Disk Space to use for System Restore section, is allocated in C drive. Where is this place located in the C drive, and, would it create problems if I delete files from this location?

Apostle (talk) 09:24, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

1) I suspect it is doing a backup of the backup. That is, the file it creates with the restore info is itself backed up the next time it is run. To avoid this, either the software needs to be smart enough to not do that, or you need to store the backup files some place other than the partitions being backed up. StuRat (talk) 14:13, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
I deleted the 'manual recovery point' than recreated it again, decreased a lot of GB but didn't make it zero; probably because there are two more early recovery points existing... -- Apostle (talk) 05:19, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Crystal Oscillator[edit]

Please expand picture by clicking on it if you find numbers too small to be read

All my search on Google and at other places on the Net was only enough to ensure that the thing is a Crystal Oscillator, the numbers etc. on the top proved to be useless, was unable to find any data-sheet or even a pin-out diagram. The vendor, who (methinks) has no reason to lie, says it's a 16 MHz Crystal Oscillator (And that's ALL he knows about it). Can anyone please draw me its rough blue-print showing where and how to fit it in what type of circuit, power source be AC or DC and how much volts, what type of resistors (or other components like transistor(s) etc. ) should be fitted, and where. And how to bring its rate below 10 Mhz (if possible). Thanks (talk) 15:30, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Actual Shape (had to make two pictures because shape and markings, which are on it's top, can't be shown in single picture)
  • Is the vendor a shady character in an ill-frequented bar? Otherwise, any info on who manufactured the chip would probably prove useful.
  • :OP is in India, and has himself received Amazon(.in) and the regional Ebay packages full of nothing but old newspaper cuttings ! This happens when Amazon etc. is in no position to dispatch and hence directs one of its contracted vendors to deliver detailed item(s) to the address they provide.
I cannot claim to understand it all, but going by this, it would seem the "crystal oscillator" is a passive two-terminal linear electrical component and the frequency comes from the eigenmode. In that case, frequency cannot be changed (except by opening the case and replacing one of the components). TigraanClick here to contact me 16:08, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
It look remarkably like an MEC crystal oscillator, 16 MHz. (talk) 16:37, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
This is MEC's website and this is their datasheet for this range of crystals. See crystal oscillator for our article on the general subject. The crystal on its own can't generate a signal, and you can't change the frequency of the crystal - you need to build a (16 MHz) oscillator using the crystal to control the frequency, and feed the output to a suitable combination of frequency dividers and multipliers to get the frequency you want. Tevildo (talk) 08:49, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
As far as the circuitry needed to make it function, that is all dependent on your ultimate goal. Crystal oscillators are simply parts of the puzzle the same as resistors, diodes, etc. What are you trying to make with that component? See here for more information. RegistryKey(RegEdit) 05:02, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

July 24[edit]


July 20[edit]

Thought experiment: compressibility of water[edit]

Thought experiment No. VIII. Imagine you have a magical, infinitely strong glass cylinder 300mm in diameter and as long as you like sticking up from the surface of the earth forever. (No hissy fits please. This is a thought experiment). Full of confidence that no idiot will scratch the glass, you relax on a sofa at the base and watch while somebody fills the tube with water and the pressure at the base goes up from thousands to millions to squillions of kilograms per square whazzername. We know that towards the end the material will collapse into a neutron soup and then, at the limit, into a black hole. Before this happens, what other stages would one observe? Captainbeefart (talk) 14:58, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Um, I don't think that's going to work. I think you'd get nothing more than maybe some exotic ices though I doubt even that - I should recheck the phase diagram of water - because the water only accumulates in the cylinder below geostationary orbit, and with lower and lower gravity. (Well, OK, you can put it at the pole but the gravity still falls off fast, though not strictly to zero) I bet the total pressure would be less than inside a gas giant, but I'd have to do the math, and I'm feeling lazy. Wnt (talk) 15:56, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
There's pretty substantial pressure at the bottom of the world's oceans. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:58, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Jupiter has an average density of 1.4 times water. Granted it doesn't reach water density till a bit in but the surface gravity is 240% Earth, it takes 11 Earth radii to drop off to zero and there's gas giants 13 times denser than Jupiter with the same size. Jupiter's maximum pressure is 91,000 times the ocean's and 13 times more stuff in the same size ball would make 13 times more gravity and 169 times the pressure if the density is simply 13 times higher everywhere. For 15,000,000 times maximum ocean pressure. This agrees with brown dwarf which says a pressure of 91,000,000 times the ocean for what is presumably a medium brown dwarf (they go from 13 to 65 Jupiter masses). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:15, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
  • While we are dreaming, we can as well assume away any gravitational pull from other bodies, and more importantly the Earth's rotation (because otherwise, after some height, centrifugal forces would push it away more than gravity pulls it down).
Let us go by the standard hydrostatic pressure relation for which I cannot seem to find any good source for that right now (here is a bad one but with some details about the math). Let us also assume that water is incompressible (...yes, dreaming, but none wants to search the equation of state for liquid water for a large range of pressures), i.e. constant density ().
It would seem that as you integrate pressure on a higher and higher water column, it diverges, but that is not the case. is not constant with altitude; the gravitational pull of the Earth decreases as .
So, defining and we can integrate . That is a finite value; with at and , it comes to around . 600 kbar is not something trivial, of course, but if you fancy a bit of shopping, this will get you 120 tons of pressure (which is 120 kbar, over a square meter). So, you can probably spare the glass and the dangerous job of filling it, if you have a specific experiment in mind.
Of course, if you insist that incompressible water is not realistic (ahem), then the final pressure would get higher - as the bottom layers squeeze, more mass gets in the stronger gravitational field. On the other hand, you can leave the Sun, Moon etc. in place, because the integral converges relatively quickly, so a mere 6,400km high glass gets you half the maximum pressure. TigraanClick here to contact me 17:02, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
120 tons per square meter is only 12 bars. 10 kbar is I believe the pressure of the 1993 World Trade Center bomb. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:31, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
At pressures in excess of 0.5 Mbar a superionic phase of water is predicted to be as hard as iron and glowing yellow, where hydrogen ions float within an oxygen lattice. It may exist in the ice giant planets Uranus and Neptune. See also Properties of water#Compressibility. We do not "know that the material will collapse into a neutron soup and then into a black hole". AllBestFaith (talk) 18:32, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
What an interesting substance! Apparently something is known of advanced superionic conductors and fast ion conductors and proton conductors already; I simply wasn't paying attention. So the hydrogen ions move freely and transmit current - I'm still not clear on whether their liquid-like state is simply like an electrolyte or something stranger... Wnt (talk) 17:52, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Autism Cure[edit]

Why do so many people think Autism needs to be cured? Mage Resu (talk) 21:37, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Name one. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:05, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Define: Many; cure; autism. Some children diagnosed with autism are incapable of functioning on their own, being unable to communicate with other human beings. Some also exhibit self-harming behavior and have motor control difficulties. Most people would classify these as bad things. It's clear they need help, though that help can take many forms. But of course many autistics can function just fine, they just need to be taught and raised in a different manner from neurotypical children. Something that may be pushing the "cure" mind-set is the hoard of anti-vaccine advocates who insist that autism is some kind of brain damage that has hidden or destroyed their "real" child. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:54, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
ITYM horde --Trovatore (talk) 23:17, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
And for a more entertaining homophone, there's "whored". StuRat (talk) 04:40, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Less interesting in meaning, but let's make it a quadruple with "hoared". DMacks (talk) 03:10, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
It does indeed seem like their child's personality has been stolen, in that in many cases their formerly outgoing toddler starts to regress socially. StuRat (talk) 04:40, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
There's an interesting essay on the subject here. -- BenRG (talk) 22:56, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Neurodiversity advocates promote support systems (such as inclusion-focused services, accommodations, communication and assistive technologies, occupational training, and independent living support) that allow those who are neurodivergent to live their lives as they are, rather than being coerced or forced to adopt uncritically accepted ideas of normality, or to conform to a clinical ideal.

Many "curebies" believe that the neurodiversity movement does not believe in supporting autistic individuals in any way. Then they strike down that idea saying that it unethical. Why do they do this? Mage Resu (talk) 23:29, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
You have to be much more specific. Which groups, which curebies? What have they said? Someguy1221 (talk) 00:41, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Mostly parents. The anti-vaccine movement loves that argument! It's just something I hear a lot! The question is, why are they assuming that Neurodiversity is something it isn't, even when corrected? Mage Resu (talk) 01:07, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
I highly recommed reading the llink the BenRG provides above. A lot of this might be caused by people talking past each other while they have different images of autism in their head. I don't think many people are advocating a cure for a child's being quirky in a group and not liking synthetic fabrics. But many people are advocating a cure for the child who tries to literally rip off his own face if you loosen his straight jacket. That is not hyperbole, such children exist. The desire for a cure is a desire to ease suffering, not to abolish a group of people who think differently. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:04, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
That said, I'm not sure why you're so convinced that a cure would be unethical. Perhaps we are talking past each other and have different ideas of the word "cure". Maybe you could enlighten us as to how you imagine a cure would be administered. Are you thinking of a pill that is freely offered to adult autistics, who can choose not to take it? Or are you imagining thugs holding down autistics and forcing them to become "normal"? This is why I asked for definitions at the beginning. We can't have a real conversation if our terms are left undefined. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:07, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
While I've found myself agreeing with pretty much everything you've said above, Someguy, the fact of the matter is, we shouldn't be indulging the OP's desire to have an ideological "conversation" here at all, as this is WP:NOTAFORUM. The reference desk is for providing reference; if the OP has a more specific inquiry which we can help address by providing sources, that's all well and good, but what he is doing so far is creating straw men and then asking us to engage in speculation about how people supposedly feel on this topic, in a manner that particularly invites defense or critique of those beliefs. This, unsurprisingly, is leading increasingly to expression of opinions, rather than the kind of reference services we are meant to be supplying here. There is no shortage of forums where an open-ended exchange on this topic would be appropriate, but this really isn't one of them. Snow let's rap 11:33, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Autism Speaks, for one. From their Mission Statement (emphasis added):
"We are dedicated to funding global biomedical research into the causes, prevention, treatments and a possible cure for autism." [1] --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:60BC:894:7787:F31 (talk) 22:59, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Answer to this question can only be speculative. We can't really answer 'why many people think' type of questions. Hofhof (talk) 23:59, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm not expecting a perfect answer, I'm just asking for possible explanations behind this behavior. Mage Resu (talk) 01:13, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Are you opposed to finding a cure for autism, assuming such a thing could be done? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:28, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
A cure would be unethical. Mage Resu (talk) 02:02, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm confused, Autism is defined as a spectrum disorder, just because SOME people with autism have a manageable manifestation and don't "want" to be cured because they are happy with their life, does NOT mean that there aren't lots of autistic people and parents of autistic children who face severe challenges and WOULD want to be "cured" if that was an option. How is that unethical? Is giving a deaf person a hearing implant unethical? Just because there exists some happy deaf people who do not want to be "cured"? Vespine (talk) 02:12, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
By "cure", I mean an intervention which somehow turns an autistic person into a neurotypical person. This is different from treatment which allows autistic people to function, but does not eliminate autism itself. Mage Resu (talk) 17:16, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
By "intervention", do you mean toward children or toward adults? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:59, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Doesn't matter! People are people! Mage Resu (talk) 22:02, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
It DOES matter. Parents are responsible for their children. If a cure for something turned up, and the parents failed to provide it to their children, they would be derelict in their duties as parents. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:57, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Thin ice, Bugs. That statement needs LOTS of qualifications. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:58, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
So if they found a cure for Down's Syndrome, parents should just say, "Well, we should just let little Johnny be what God made him"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:52, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
This seems to me to be ultimately a question of "who has authority to decide". Here's where the idea of Non compos mentis comes into play. Clearly, children and people "not in their right mind" have a limited ability to make decisions based on informed consent, that includes decisions about their own welfare. So in those cases the law usually permits people like parents and guardians to make those decisions, but sometimes even those people can be demonstrate to NOT be making the decision in the best interest of the subject. Such as when blood transfusions are refused on religious grounds, or other cases of neglect, the law sometimes steps in and takes those decisions away from those people. But WHO gets to decide if autism means "non compos mentis"? Or if that person SHOULD be cured, even against their own will, or the will of their guardians? As in the case of blood transfusions. Well in the majority of those cases, the law sides with the medical profession, why? Because that's what the medical profession does. By definition, the consensus of the people who are most highly educated in the fields of health, including mental health, are the ones who we should defer our own judgement in cases of uncertainly. There is NO guarantee that they can't be wrong or make the wrong decision, but the chances they will be right are FAR higher than any individual or ideological group who have no demonstrable subjective authority beyond some ideology, such as this "neurodiversity" group. Vespine (talk) 02:29, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Actually, jurisdictions vary wildly in just how they treat non compos mentis and what is called the "right to consent", including who is empowered to make those decisions and what manner of expert testimony (medical or otherwise) will be allowed. I'd also caution against making too direct a correlation between a "strictly" physiological treatment like a blood transfusion and anything that would profoundly affect the mental state of the patient, especially in a permanent fashion; in both legal and medical contexts, these are treated as distinct procedures for the purposes of capacity and informed consent. In any event, the OP's question, aside from riling the passions, is moot; the fact of the matter is, we can do little to nothing to "cure" autism; some behaviours and attention/perceptual difficulties can be managed with medication or behavioural therapy, but our fundamental understanding of the neurophysiology of autistic spectrum disorders is still incredibly limited, so notions of a radical "corrective" therapy--drug, genetic, or otherwise--are pretty much science fiction. Snow let's rap 11:52, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Are there any advantages to being autistic? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:51, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
The intense focus that can accompany asperger syndrome can make a mildly autistic person very good at a specific job. There is also the know phenomenon of autistic savants. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:06, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
And it can be a social handicap. The OP is saying that if someone doesn't want to be autistic, or let's so "not as" autistic, then they have no right to want to "cure" it. That's extremely offensive. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:52, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
I think the OP's point is more that if someone autistic wants to stay so, or at least opposes any kind of treatment, then no cure should be imposed on them. It does raise an interesting ethical question (paternalism is the go-to article, methinks), and I defer to experts in the domain to say whether or not for a particular case the autistic patient can be deemed to have taken an informed decision about their well-being.
I could even imagine a stronger point that if a cure is somehow invented, it would plausibly work the same on those who want it, those who refuse it and those who are too crazy to consent either way. Searching for such a cure could be deemed unethical, because there is a risk that the cure is imposed by physicians/parents on some who do not want it. I disagree with that argument, which I see as an avatar of the neo-luddism argument that any technology with a risk of abuse (no matter how small or uncertain) should be opposed, regardless of the possible improvements it may bring. TigraanClick here to contact me 11:15, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
It's worse than neo-Luddism. If autism could be cured, then some people would be unemployed. It's in those people's vested interest to not find a cure. As for imposing on someone - would those who call it "unethical" likewise argue that a polio vaccine is unethical, and that if someone develops polio it is "God's will"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:29, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
WP:NOTAFORUM. You're probably preaching to the choir for the majority of the science desk, Bugs, but this is really going way past the line into a protracted discussion of personal perspectives concerning what is ethical and appropriate, which is beyond our remit on the reference desks. Let's please confine discussion to referenceable facts, and leave ideological judgments and posturing to other forums where they are more appropriate. Snow let's rap 12:04, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
If you're going to play the "not a forum" card, lay it on the OP, who clearly came here with a personal agenda. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:02, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Bugs, try replacing "autism" with "homosexuality" in this thread to see where the OP is coming from. Tevildo (talk) 20:46, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Try replacing "autism" with "polio" to see where I'm coming from. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:57, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Bad comparison. Mage Resu (talk) 22:00, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Why? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:57, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
I wouldn't go with polio, but the homosexuality comparison is worse. The immediate "problems" with homosexuality all relate to interactions with other human beings, so we can blame other humans for the problems. (Some asshole will claim that not being able to reproduce is a problem, but that's only a problem in some existential sense that not everyone cares about, and ignores the fact that even a gay person could reproduce if they really really wanted to.) Polio is a bad analogy because polio doesn't have any obvious benefit to the people who get it (iron lung manufacturers benefit, but again, other people, screw their issues). Autism however, does have some benefits. There are professionals who have attributed their creativity or skills to their autistic condition, while at the same time very many people suffer as a result of autism (and unlike homosexuality, much of this suffering is entirely internal in nature). Many children with mild autism and their parents like the way they are. So we have a condition that is largely bad, but with some good, and now we're left with some big medical-ethical question about when/why/how/who is permitted to decide that it should be "cured", a question that can't be meaningfully discussed because there is no cure. Though none of this is really of interest to Mage Resu, our OP, who doesn't seem interested in actual discussion. He's probably just waiting for people to tell him that "cure" proponents are jerks who hate autistics or something. Oh, but this is a reference desk, so I should probably give references or something. Mage, if you are really interested in learning about this topic, go peruse a website of one of the major groups promoting a cure for autism, like here. Take a look around that site, see what they are researching and why. But of course no one can tell you why the specific people you have encountered want there to be a cure, because we are not mind readers. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:42, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
To address your implied question about whether, and when, an autistic person can be judged competent to consent to medical treatment, the answer is (and I'm sure this will not surprise), it depends. Needless to say, nations the world over vary immensely in how the view mental "defect" and how it affects capacity and other aspects of mental state. Even amongst nations from the western common law traditions, the standards, even the basic conceptions and assumptions they make about the mind for the purposes of the law, vary immensely. The U.S. in particular has a multiplicity of standards and perspectives in both statutory and common law, as varied as the states. The situation is made even more exponentially confused still by the fact that there is almost always a separate set of standards for mental states for each of a number of areas of law--criminal law, tort law, and medical intervention are just three of numerous areas where one might reasonably be asking whether a person can consent to treatment. So in reality you end up with many hundreds of distinct legal doctrines which may be of either mandatory or persuasive authority in a given jurisdiction. That being said, anyone with a form of autism severe enough that they cannot substantially communicate their desires will, of course, have most of their medical decisions made for them, whether that be a family member, a legal guardian, a court-appointed advocate or institution, or the court itself. Snow let's rap 12:31, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Someguy, I know it's an innocent mistake, but that is a profoundly insulting comment, to conflate Asperger's and autism like that (and yes, I'm aware that the DSM-V has gone the same way). It also belies a significant lack of knowledge around savant syndrome, and just how far that is from Asperger's. Savants are incredibly rare (rarer than Nobel prizewinners) and are associated with generally low mental functioning in other aspects: those who are not are so rare that their existence is still seriously in doubt. The stereotypical "super-smart geek with Asperger's", perhaps in the Dirac mould, is a very long way from savant syndrome.Andy Dingley (talk) 11:39, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
And I thought I made it perfectly clear I was listing Aspergers and savant syndrome as utterly separate things, but maybe I did not. Sorry about the confusion of AS and autistic. I generally follow DSM for my definitions, and did not consider that "autistic" refers specifically to people diagnosed with autism, rather than any ASD syndrome. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:57, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps a useful shift in perspective would be to take a step back and look at what can be done to help neurotypicals. Several years ago I remember reading about research to develop new drugs that would relieve humans of the burden of needing to sleep - unfortunately, I am drawing a blank on the name just now - and obviously this has wide applications in making more vigilant soldiers and better iPhone assemblers. Assuming that the laws of capitalism work as they have, the workers ought to be able to go twenty or more hours each day for the same pay they draw now for twelve, thus vastly improving worker productivity and market returns. Those who do not take the drugs would not be self-sufficient and would need to be cared for in some way ... perhaps by administering them the drugs. Or if you don't like cutting-edge technology, we could review the use of methamphetamine by the pilots and James Bonds and long-haul truck drivers of the world. Now I'm not sure where to go with this just yet; we're hampered by the problem that this is a Science discussion and scientists don't know jack about ethics; they just know more than ethicists that are generally in somebody's pocket. Wnt (talk) 13:04, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
@Wnt: You might be thinking of Modafinil? It had a lot of hype ~10 years ago. Cool stuff, very few side effects compared to traditional uppers. Not sure how much/in what context it is most used today, but our article has plenty of info. It is somewhat oddly classified as schedule IV in the USA, and by prescription only elsewhere. Of course there's then a black market [2] for students and presumably there's also trucking industry and military usage. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:00, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
I think I must have read an overly optimistic early assessment of CRL40940 or CRL40941, but I'm not sure now; certainly what I see about them now does not match the initial breathless hype about reducing overall need for sleep long term. For which we can all breathe a sigh of relief before we go back to bed. Wnt (talk) 15:17, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Anyway, the way I'd look at this personally would be to start from my particular notion of what a genetic disease is. To me, it seems like a gene that has been present in human populations for hundreds of thousands of years is part of the natural human variation and has withstood the test of selection, and therefore is not a disease to be cured. The problem is, that means that sickle cell trait is not a disease - yet, to be sure, the anemia is a disease when a patient complains of it and wants to be treated, but it would be a harmful deprivation of human diversity to remove the underlying trait from the gene pool, at least so long as a return of malaria is conceivable. Now autism of course is not entirely genetic, nor is it the result of harmful 'autism genes' of recent origin, so there's nothing to remove from the gene pool there either. But we can still ask - were there circumstances in the primitive environment where these people would survive and do well? Because if humanity's history holds a place where they were able to thrive, then our present potentially could offer the same, and it would be wrong to blunt their variation solely to make them fit a modern mold. But if the past outcome was always death and misery, then there is no idyllic state of nature to be returned to, and we can look at it as a disease state. This is not something readily measured, more of a simulation, but we'd do the same recreation if malaria were known to be absolutely and irrevocably extinct; we'd say sickle cell trait never would have been preserved by selection and the situation is so changed from nature that we should evaluate it in the context of a hypothetical history where the disease had never existed. Even so, we would have to be extraordinarily certain that there was no other benefit that is being lost! (I apologize for alternating between genotype and phenotype arguments, as they are similar but not the same and it is probably really confusing, but this is just how I'm thinking this through) The bottom line is that humanity has a long, established history that has defined it as a substance, and when we find ways to correct that substance in accordance with its history that is less shocking an intervention than when we shape it according to some new design. Yet the wishes of the individual largely override this - even so, we have to be careful that they are indeed the wishes of the individual and not a form of coercion, and when the condition makes it impossible to know those wishes, we should revert to a consideration of history. And I would guess, but do not know, that persons with severe or even moderate autism might have suffered terribly and died in ancient times. Wnt (talk) 13:27, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Your solution to the problem introduces a new problem, one of paternalism and the ethics associated with it. If a cure existed that would revert the sickle cell allele, who has the right to decide that it cannot be used? (Of course keeping mind mind, this decision could be made for everyone, or left to individuals.) Unfortunately Wikipedia doesn't have much discussion of the philosophical/ethical aspects of this sort of question, but other places do [3]. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:03, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
@Someguy1221: This is a valid concern. As I said, when the individual has a strong preference we largely defer to it, though as with other procedures like tongue splitting and genital bisection or indulging an amputee fetish, there is only so far that most of us want to ride that bus before we get off, and there is a point at which the lack of people willing to participate in a body modification becomes a significant limitation on its feasibility. But where paternalism matters most is when the person at issue is not what we regard as truly adult. In that situation, we reject that they can truly consent to so much as a tattoo when we view it as unnatural, yet we would routinely consent them to major surgery if we view it as repairing a trauma or defect. Paternalism is rightly reviled anywhere in the world outside of its proper role, which is to say, when exercised by someone acting as a parent. Wnt (talk) 03:37, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
  • The user's question is a valid one. Those who are "functioning autistics" (to use my own term) are little different from "well-adjusted bi/homo-sexuals" (like myself, who discovered I was queer at 12, and started coming out at 14) or the deaf among the deaf as described brilliantly by Oliver Sacks. (I cannot recommend this book highly enough.)
Our nature is our nature, and we don't want to be "cured" of it, if we are able to be happy as we are. (There is a letter to the editor of this effect in the June 2016 Scientific American) Let me ask everyone reading this a question. If you were happy, would you be unhappy?' μηδείς (talk) 21:47, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

July 21[edit]

hyperferremia vs hemochromatosis[edit]

What is the distinction between the two? Can you have a hyperferremia that is not hemochromatosis? (you can find references where a patient is described having both hyperferremia and hemochromatosis, so they must not be synonyms). DTLHS (talk) 02:00, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

If I'm reading this article correctly, hyperferremia refers to hereditary hemochromatosis. Based on that (it certainly appears to be a reliable source), I've redirected the redlinked hyperferremia to iron overload, which is where hemochromatosis pointed. It should get noted on the target page somehow. I'll give it a shot if I get a few minutes. Matt Deres (talk) 03:24, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Digging deeper, I'm not sure if I've redirected that appropriately; maybe HFE hereditary haemochromatosis would be better? I'm out of my depth here and neither page seems to have much activity on the talk pages. I've opened a ticket at WikiProject Medicine. Matt Deres (talk) 03:34, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Quantum precognition and time reversibility[edit]

Suppose you have a system in which some electrons, nuclei or other objects can have spin up or spin down. Normally they are 50% each. You can transiently apply a magnetic field that makes either spin down or spin up the lower energy state, and the particles in the higher energy state emit particles to drop to the lower spin state. Eventually there is a strong disequilibrium. Then the field is removed, and for some period of time afterward, the formerly lower energy spin state continues to prevail if the state of these particles is "read".

In other words, the applied magnetic field over time (0 or 1 for various times) is 000000111000000, while what is presumed from ideas of causality is that the degree of spin polarization on a scale of 0 to 9 might perhaps be 000000369753211

Yet I have heard it said that quantum physics is time reversible, and it would seem like the times before and after the magnetic field is applied might be symmetrical. So it would seem plausible according to this way of thinking that among these particles the to-be lower energy spin state would be observed more often before the magnetic field is applied. In an extreme case, this would be 112357999753211, but conceivably it could be some compromise like 000001369753211, if for some reason the "decay" is faster, but not infinitely fast, when looking at past times than when looking at future times.

There are some issues here that would need to be looked at carefully, and doubtless I'm not looking at some of them carefully. For example, the time reversal of photons being emitted after the field is applied would seem to be for photons to be absorbed before the field is removed, and this seems to imply that the level of background photons is important. I assume no one has actually published a "quantum precognition" result or I'd have heard much about it, but has the experiment been done with any great precision? Wnt (talk) 02:31, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

I tried to read the article on T-symmetry, but I don't get it. The section on electric dipole moments seems similar to what you're talking about here, but that one class I took on quantum physics ten years ago has not prepared me for this material. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:12, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
You could make the same argument in classical electrodynamics. I think the resolution there is that either there is friction (which breaks time reversibility; it's an aspect of the second law of thermodynamics) or else there is no increase in the amount of magnetic dipole alignment. Whatever the answer is, it's not changed by quantization. -- BenRG (talk) 07:01, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
  • As BenRG says, it is probably not a quantum question. The bottom question is "how can macroscopic equations be irreversible, when microscopic equations are". WP has a few articles on the subject, such as arrow of time, but they are not fantastic to be honest.
Notice also that the Curie principle is just that (a principle); in reality, symmetry breaking events happen. One of the implications is that, even though the equations of motion might respect some symmetry (e.g. time-reversal), their solutions might not. Now, whether this is a good argument for the defense of the causality principle, I do not know, but it certainly invalidates the "obvious" assumption that time-symmetric equations must lead to time-symmetric solutions. TigraanClick here to contact me 11:00, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
"All models are wrong; some models are useful". It is also important to remember that, philosophically, QM is still a model, it is a powerful and highly accurate model, but insofar as the model does not match observed phenomena, (and ALL Models have aspects that do not match observed phenomena, by their very nature). Macroscopic time reversal, FTL travel, "into the past" time travel, etc. are all examples of phenomena predicted by the equations of QM but which have never had any evidence of any sort to support. With all of the caveats around "absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence", it is most important to maintain a strict adherence to the null hypothesis regarding the reality of such phenomena. QM is powerful in the way it aligns with observable phenomena. That doesn't mean we need to accept, on faith, the veracity of predictions it makes that do not align with observation. --Jayron32 11:14, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Well we know there's some problems with modern physics, but this is not related to anything like that. No problem in Quantum mechanics is being talked about. All that's being talked about is our expectations. As to the question what is the meaning in talking about observations that might have been made but weren't? Dmcq (talk) 12:06, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Again, this is not a QM question, at least historically it came about thermodynamics.
In any case... At any moment, there are three kinds of predictions made by any model: those that are verified experimentally, those that are falsified experimentally, and those that have not been tested (for any reason - it could be impossible to test, or just really hard, or it just had not been done yet). The heart of the experimental part of the scientific method is to transfer predictions from the latter to any of the first two categories, and while doing so one should indeed be "unbiaised", to validly put the theories to test.
However, when one is not testing the models, it is completely reasonable to "believe" the predictions of models that are successful. That is just Bayesian inference: there is a priori no reason that the ratio of model predictions that would come true if tested among the untested ones is any lower (or higher) than among those that have been tested. This is an outrageous simplification of Bayesian principles, of course - notably, the a priori probability of any given model is not independent of that model. "Leprechauns did it" is less convincing than serious alternatives, even before we begin to search for leprechauns. There is indeed the leap of faith (it could be that hardest-to-test predictions are also more likely to falsify the model), but it is faith in the method rather than in a particular model (you do not expect gravity to just stop at the 300th anniversary of Isaac Newton's death, even if none has made experiments after this date yet). TigraanClick here to contact me 12:30, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
It's not that the model is necessarily wrong, I should probably say, it is that out inferences and interpretations of the model are not necessarily consistent with observable behavior. The classic example of this is that of the gravitational singularity; the model predicts regions of infinitesimal volume and thus infinite density; such mathematical singularities, when mapped onto reality, usually are interpreted to mean a breakdown of the theory rather than a prediction of expected behavior. No one really thinks that infinite density exists, as noted in the gravitational singularity article, the prediction of such a singularity at the Big Bang is assumed to be a breakdown of the predictive power of the model rather than the existence of such a literal singularity. To varying degrees, other such fantastical predictions of the QM model (functionally the leprechauns of the theory) involving reverse time travel and other violations of causality, should be similarly understood. In the same way that the prediction of a gravitational singularity should be interpreted not as an expectation of its existance, but as a limitation of the theory, similarly time reversal should also be thought of in the same way. "The model predicts that time reversal is possible" is not the same thing as saying "time reversal is possible". --Jayron32 16:14, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Everyone knows leprechauns are extinct. InedibleHulk (talk) 15:01, July 21, 2016 (UTC)
Yes, but has anyone told the leprechauns? {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 19:35, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
The article Delayed choice quantum eraser discusses these type problems and shows what you might consider as 'precognition' in action. Dmcq (talk) 14:51, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
This is a fascinating phenomenon, but does not actually reach that standard. The issue is that the entangled photon is measured at one of the four mirrors, not put there; so it's not possible for a decision made at the future time point to affect that in the past. I think... though there are many possible permutations of the idea. My interest here isn't on a fancy entanglement scheme, but just a very basic brute-force measurement to see if there's even the slightest increase in possibility of seeing a 1 or a 0 in a formerly indeterminate bit of data on some sort of storage medium if it is going to be set in the future. I feel like somebody ought to have done this experiment, and I'm just wondering how well - people check all kinds of things, whether the gravitational law is right, whether constants change, do they check this? All the talk about leprechauns misses the point that causality (physics) is nothing more than a religion that contradicts millennia of popular belief - it's not even a theory, as far as I know; at least, not unless many careful experiments of this sort have actually been done. Wnt (talk) 23:12, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
I wonder if anyone's done that experiment too. Methinks it wouldn't magnetize before you write because that would either give you an unstoppable urge to magnetize it or it would be a source of free energy if you can convince someone to not magnetize before he does it. And the laws of physics don't care what a sentient being wants. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:34, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
I would go with the first model. It is true that trying to paradox the situation here would be problematic... my guess is such efforts might be defeated if they simply generate small amounts of noise in the experimental apparatus to foul the result, though I suspect that weird macroscopic phenomena, like one of the experimenters going mad and shooting up the place, might be even lower in energy than such noise. I also admit to having the personal opinion that certain configurations of such an apparatus with looped causal characteristics could actually assume sentience in their own right... I am not sure what sentience without intelligence looks like. Wnt (talk) 00:13, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
The Aspect experiment (and its successors) is probably the best-known example of this sort of thing. Tevildo (talk) 00:30, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
That links to Bell test experiments where, as far as I know, there is no observable difference in measuring the 'future' or the 'past' of the entangled particle; only the fact that you're going to measure it matters. I think the entanglement issue may simply be something different. Wnt (talk) 00:47, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
All this talk about particles and "entanglement" is still discussions of the model; when you look at all of these experiments that start with such precepts as "whatever we're looking at is either a wave or a particle at some point in its path" and even the fairly common interpretation such as superposition assumes that it should be one or the other and that it somehow "chooses" (as though it has agency) or is "chosen" as one or the other by act of observation itself; all that still starts with the presumption that "particle" and "wave" are binary choices. Light is light; the properties that light displays depends on the nature of the measurement. That's the Occam's razor interpretation of all QM experiments; it makes a minimal number of presumptions based on available evidence. When we pile expectations upon the phenomenon (by asking questions like "Is it a particle or a wave?" or even "What makes it behave like a particle or a wave?") we're bringing assumptions into the model. Statements like " If the experimental apparatus is changed while the photon is in mid‑flight, then the photon should reverse its original "decision" as to whether to be a wave or a particle" presumes that light was either or both or some combination or superposition of both. It was light. All the experiment proves is that the properties we measure are dependent on the way we measure them. The interpretation of the data says more about the psychology of the interpreter than it does about the nature of light. --Jayron32 11:11, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
The delayed choice quantum eraser has nothing to do with backward causation. The only people who think it does are people who don't understand the difference between correlation and causation. See this answer. I'll quote the key bit here:
You have a bag containing 4 balls, 2 red and 2 black. You draw a ball. There's a 1/2 chance it will be red. If it is red, there's a 1/3 chance that the second ball you draw will be red.
But if you don't look at the first ball, there's a 1/2 chance that the second ball you draw will be red, and if it is, there's a 1/3 chance that the first ball you drew was red. If you collect data over many trials, conditioned on the second ball being red, you'll find that indeed about 1/3 of the first balls you drew were red.
Backward causation??1? Of course not. If X is correlated with Y, then Y is correlated with X. It doesn't matter whether Y happened after X.
The argument for backward causation in the delayed-choice quantum eraser experiment is exactly the same as the argument for backward causation in this classical experiment.
-- BenRG (talk) 17:37, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
As always Ben, a most relevant, accessible, and well-written answer. --Jayron32 17:42, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
What's the reverse of a debris field turning into a tornado turning into a charcoalized forest turning into fire which shrinks to a broken glass field which becomes a Molotov cocktail which rockets up till it slows into a hand in an airplane and transfers its fire to a match which is scratched by a dude and unlights itself? The equations are time reversible so this is totally possible. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:18, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Well, I didn't think I was suggesting exceptions to the second law of thermodynamics here. I suppose that a trace of magnetization in advance would indeed need to become steadily stronger until the bit is written, which suggests a reversal of entropy, but that decrease in entropy is eventually paid for by an increase in entropy somewhere else when the bit actually is written, and of course we know that bits can indeed be written this way, it's just a question of precisely when. Wnt (talk) 00:03, 22 July 2016 (UTC) Count Iblis (talk) 00:13, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Fascinating, and it would be more so if I understood the other 2/3. Nonetheless, even in describing their 'time machine' (of sorts) the authors dismiss signalling to the past because it 'contradicts causality'. Wnt (talk) 00:44, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
There is an apparent time asymmetry in the usual formulation of quantum mechanics: wave functions collapse, but don't uncollapse. I think the point of this paper is to show that it's an artifact of the formalism, not a real asymmetry. The only relevance of this to your experiment is that you could try to argue that the time symmetry in your experiment comes from wavefunction collapse. This paper (if you believe it) says that that's wrong. But in the classical case, you could never make that argument in the first place, because there's no analogue of physical wavefunction collapse and everyone agrees that the laws are time symmetric. So the classical version of your experiment is stronger than the quantum version, in this respect. -- BenRG (talk) 17:37, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
@BenRG: Is it really true that wave functions don't uncollapse? For example, in a quantum eraser scenario where a particle has two possible pasts and now you don't know which. I would think that just as any observed particle has multiple futures, so it could have multiple pasts. Wnt (talk) 01:05, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
In traditional quantum mechanics (which was taught to me in college, and may be what people mean when they say "Copenhagen interpretation"), wavefunctions collapse after measurement, and never uncollapse, by fiat. It's an explicitly asymmetric rule.
The modern view is that the "measurement effect" that was traditionally attributed to the collapse is really due to quantum decoherence, which is irreversible because of the second law of thermodynamics. The wavefunction collapse then has no observable consequence, and I suppose there's there's no reason it couldn't uncollapse too. (This is like saying "maybe other realities that we can never detect are appearing or disappearing all the time".)
In the DCQE experiment, detection is irreversible. The photon heats up the detector, the heat spreads, the detector emits slightly more blackbody radiation, etc. The reverse process never happens because of the second law. If it did happen, a reverse collapse model would correctly describe it. -- BenRG (talk) 18:29, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Advanced potential may be relevant. Unfortunately Wikipedia doesn't seem to have an article on it (that link redirects to "retarded potential"). There is an article on Wheeler–Feynman absorber theory but it's not very readable. In short, it's an open question why oscillating particles emit radiation in the future but not in the past. But again, this problem isn't specific to quantum mechanics; it was recognized in the 1800s. -- BenRG (talk) 17:46, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
The way I read that article is that there is no need to consider backward in time ('advanced') transmission of EM waves because there is no "free EM" going off to infinity; every wave that is emitted 'advanced' is matched with some other wave that is absorbed (as a normal retarded wave). In this thought problem, if some kind of advanced spin polarization develops before the bit is written, it means that something interacted with those spins to set them in one direction, which can be looked at as a "writing" process in forward time. (This is why I suggested there needed to be some sort of background of thermal photons at the beginning) But can the sign of that writing process be dependent on what signal will subsequently be sent to align the spins all one way, whether or not it occurred first? Wnt (talk) 19:05, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

July 22[edit]

Physiological signs[edit]

I stumbled across our article at dermatoglyphics and found it very interesting. Do we have similar kinds of pages for signs at other areas of the body, such as eyes, nails, and so on? There's a cat associated with that article that lists a few more isolated articles, but maybe there's something more comprehensive? Non-WP links would also be appreciated. Matt Deres (talk) 03:14, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

The broader version of this would seem to be anthropometry, our article on which lists a lot of specialties within, such as dermatoglyphics. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:50, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Cool - thank you! Matt Deres (talk) 10:53, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
While you are discovering interesting articles related to this, double check to see if they are in the appropriate cat(s) and add them as appropriate. That way the next person won't have trouble finding them. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:38, 22 July 2016 (UTC)


Suppose you're trying to make a very thin (so thin as to be translucent), flat, mirror-smooth slice of an opaque gemstone with Mohs hardness between 5 and 6, and further suppose that you can't afford a professional-grade faceting machine. Given these conditions, which machine would give better results -- a power sander or a grinder? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:7D92:4B92:BDBC:ACFB (talk) 08:20, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure any such machine will give reasonable results, as the tolerances involved are outside of what you need to perform the task. If I'm trying to figure out if the machine will work, I'd try to think a) what is the thicknes and b) what is the smoothness of the final product. Since sanders and grinders would both have a huge variance in their vibrational motion, you'd not be able to control how they grind your surface to such a precision as to get satisfactory results. In simple terms, you're using an axe to do a scalpel's job, and just as you can't reliable cut a 5 mm incision in a specific location by swinging an axe at full force, you likewise can't expect woodworking tools to do the fine cutting and polishing you're expecting. --Jayron32 11:00, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Neither of these could give you a mirror finish as they are much too coarse. They could probably cut off the bulk, but then you would need to go very carefully, perhaps with hand held sharpening block. Then you will need finer and finer polish dusts to get to mirror smooth with imperfections under 1μm. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:26, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
That might work -- just tell me, how smooth a finish will I need to get a refraction index? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:7D92:4B92:BDBC:ACFB (talk) 03:46, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
It seems like you could learn much by reading that faceting machine article and other articles on the device you want. Even though you can't afford it, it represents the technology you aspire to. Note, for example, the mention of pulmonary disease (from silicosis and the like, I assume) from breathing mineral dust, and the use of a drip to prevent this and to also keep heat from the grinding from cracking the stone. I'd say get an understanding of all such little technical points before you think about improvising, unless you want to run through multiple stones and/or lungs on your learning curve. Wnt (talk) 19:11, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Are you kidding? I'm fully aware of the dust hazards -- I plan to wet down the rock before each pass and to wear a dust mask! 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:7D92:4B92:BDBC:ACFB (talk) 03:46, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
The OP does not state what type of grinder he has access to. If it is a surface grinder then the way I would tackle it would be to embed the lower part of the stone in epoxy putty upon a parallel plate. Then grind down to just above the putty. The putty itself will clog grinding wheel -so stop, before reaching that point. Also, clean the stone (with a suitable solvent, and even consider etching it with a quick dip in hydrofluoric acid in order for the epoxy to get a good bond). Then, with stone still embedded, hand-lap the the surface to a glass like finish on a lapping stone. Then release polished stone with an epoxy solvent and remount on parallel plate with epoxy glue with the polished face down. Grind down to within just a gnat's whisker on one's desired thickness. Then, hand-lap the wafer of stone on a lapping plate one again. Once a glass finish has been archived, release prepared and polished wafer by using an epoxy solvent once more. This gives a thin and transparent wafer. If it is a big and valuable stone, consider first using a thin abrasive paper disc to cut it into thin sections and repeat above process. With a power sander it is very difficult the achieve a flat surface (on a large specimens) . Try as one might, the edges get warn down the most. --Aspro (talk) 12:12, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Well, I don't need the whole stone (and I can't use the whole stone, anyway, on account of it's opaque) -- it will be a synthetic and will probably come out of the reactor as a cylindrical slug, so I'll just need to cut a thin slice off the end and then grind it down to where it's translucent (which means grinding it down to a very thin slice indeed). Thanks for the advice, it sounds like a workable plan! 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:D5B2:91C:A132:E02D (talk) 00:36, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Since you want to identify the mineral, there are also other ways. Consider hardness test, streak test, specific gravity, borax bead test. And the refractive index can be estimated from a small particle in those liquids with different refractive indexes. You can also measure the Brewster angle from a polarised light reflection. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:54, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm actually not trying to identify an unknown stone -- I'm trying to check whether my synthetic stone (which I haven't actually synthesized yet -- I'm just putting the plumbing together at this point) is as close as possible to the real thing in terms of physical properties (which means I have to do all these tests, or at least as many of them as I can). (The best way, of course, would be by FTIR, but I can't afford that machine either and also have no room for it even if I could.) So you're saying that I might not need a perfectly smooth finish in order to measure the refractive index with a refractometer? Oh, and did I mention that the stone is opaque except in very thin sections? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:D5B2:91C:A132:E02D (talk) 00:04, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
A very small crumb / piece of dust should also be thin enough to transmit light. You can use Optical relief or the Becke line test to get an estimate. Another idea is to find a lapidary club and ask someone for help. Perhaps you can borrow their equipment. You may be able to hire some machines too. TO measure reflection you will only need a smooth finish on a surface, and not cut it so thin that it becomes transparent. And that surface does not have to be too big, a square millimeter may be enough. Also an optical spectrogram may be useful. X ray crystallography can tell if you have the right mineral structure. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 01:43, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Right, I plan to take an optical spectrum with a spectroscope -- for this I will need a piece which is translucent but not necessarily smooth, whereas for the refraction index I will need one which is smooth but not necessarily translucent. Of course, if the piece is both smooth AND thin, I can use it for both things (optical spectrum first, then refraction index). Did I understand you correctly? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:D5B2:91C:A132:E02D (talk) 03:28, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
The high refractive liquids to look for are quinoline, cinnamon oil, and methylene iodide. You seem to have the idea about translucency, but you should also be able to get a spectrum from reflected light. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:01, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Digging Earth[edit]

Peeps Earthlings,

I can’t recall if I asked this before, so I’m asking now, I would like to know if Earth diggers can reach the Earth’s core or not…


Apostle (talk) 09:24, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Not even close. The deepest hole ever drilled is the Kola Superdeep Borehole at a bit over 12 km. The deepest mine is the Mponeng Gold Mine at a little over 4 km. The outer core starts about 2,890 km below the surface. As you go deeper the temperature and pressure gets larger which limits the range of traditional digging / drilling technology. Dragons flight (talk) 09:36, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Googling deepest hole on earth into Google would have answered that for you quickly regardless of how many times you've asked us. Matt Deres (talk) 10:52, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps, but we have no rule that requires prior googling. And unlike google, we presumably can limit our responses to reliable sources. Google is not some magic sage, and often search results yield incorrect and misleading "answers". If you don't like to answer questions that are easy for you to answer, you are allowed to refrain from doing so ;) SemanticMantis (talk) 14:55, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
And now a word from our sponsor: Wikipedia, a friendly non-profit encyclopedia project, offers a Search field at the top of this screen that returns a fine selection of articles when one enters deepest hole on earth that compare favorably with anything a bloated profit-hungry advertising company might offer. AllBestFaith (talk) 16:15, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
One potential application of deep holes are Gravity trains, but these will likely remain theoretical thought experiments. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:57, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Diggers encounter problems after only a few feet never mind thousands of miles deep Law of holes. Dmcq (talk) 16:57, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Okay, thank you all for the information. I have to learn it some other time...

If you guys don't mind, could you please give it to me in miles, kilomiles (I'm guessing, given for all kinds of digging, above), metre, feet/foot and any other known mathematics i.e. applicable, that diggers are using while digging, please? -- Apostle (talk) 05:23, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

If you have a problem like that just stick a line into Google search like "2,890 km in miles" (quotes not needed) and our AI overlord will condescend to enlighten you using an attofraction of its power. Dmcq (talk) 08:46, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
718smiley.svg It comes on the first page! -- Apostle (talk) 03:58, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks all. Regards. Face-smile.svg -- Apostle (talk) 03:58, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Civil engineering projects[edit]

In civil engineering projects, does the principal contractor and its site management staff (construction managers, project engineers) etc still have overall responsibility for the site when all the civils work is done and interior fitout/electrical wiring/IT etc starts? In other words, by the time the site is handed over to the client, is the finished product, in a usable state for whatever it's intended purpose is or does it still require some work? 2A02:C7D:B945:6400:2897:1BD0:7DBA:B99D (talk) 09:38, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an extensive article about contracts. A major Civil engineering contract usually defines various phases of construction, that may follow a Design–bid–build or Design–build delivery sequence. Good Project planning will ensure that actual progress is compared with the baseline schedule (possibly drawn on a Gantt chart) throughout the project such that responsibilities for any deviation or incompletion are identified. Payments should be tied to clearly defined acceptance criteria, and the contract may specify "penalty" deductions for delays. Legal disputes often arise after delivery if the concept "suitability for its (not it's) intended purpose" was not quantified at the outset in measurable, objective terms. AllBestFaith (talk) 12:23, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

QuestionEnergy efficiency of batteries[edit]

Is it more energy efficient to charge AA batteries and put them into device, or use 3 volt transformer plug to power device directly off mains socket? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 12:28, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

The use of batteries involves energy losses in 1) manufacturing the batteries, 2) the battery charger circuit, and 3) the energy return loss (including self-discharge) of the batteries themselves. Using an AC adapter eliminates 1) and 3) above and the only remaining energy loss is likely similar to 2). Most of the energy losses mentioned can be felt as heat. The overall energy inefficiency of using batteries is the price you pay for portability. I corrected the header to identify the topic. AllBestFaith (talk) 12:43, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Genetics and inheritance[edit]

when sexual partners have sex, unprotected is it true that they exchange some pf their genetical material? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaymcluke (talkcontribs) 13:10, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

When sexaul partners have sex, unprotected, do they exchange their gebetical material? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaymcluke (talkcontribs) 13:12, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

They don't exactly exchange, as there is no change in their genetics. However, their genetic material is combined to form a new organism (a zygote). Is this what you are asking? --T H F S W (T · C · E) 14:30, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Well, more precisely, a sex act could result in the combination of genetic material to form a zygote, but it isn't guaranteed to do so. Sperm is released during sex (assuming a healthy, fully-functional male), but whether or not a viable ovum is present is more a matter of chance and/or planning as the egg is not released due to the sex act itself. Dragons flight (talk) 15:29, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
If I wanted to learn more about this topic, I'd start reading at Human embryogenesis and Fertilisation and follow further links to articles that discuss various aspects thereof in more detail. --Jayron32 15:19, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
If you are asking whether genetic material from the male partner is permanently incorporated into the genome of the female partner, and vice versa, then the answer is no. The emotional and physical consequences of sex may change people's lives in many ways, including the possibility of pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections; however, the only transfer of genes is from parents to child. There is no incorporation of genetic material from one partner into the other partner. Dragons flight (talk) 15:29, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Presumably the OP is not speaking of microbes such as STD's. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:26, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
(edit conflict) All of that also applies for a same-sex couple, of course - though no zygote can be formed, except maybe in extraordinary circumstances such as those listed at Disorders_of_sex_development. TigraanClick here to contact me 16:27, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
  • The "inheritance" in the thread title suggests that the questioner wants to know about incorporation of the sex partner's DNA in the genome of the individual, and the answer would seem to be "No" from the above answers. But in another sense of "exchange" I wish to point out Locard's Principle. Wikipedia's article is Locard's exchange principle.which says that after any encounter each person will leave some trace evidence and take away some trace evidence. In this instance each participant might well retain some DNA from the other participant, until time and bathing remove it. This could include DNA from semen or vaginal fluids, skin cells, blood or the roots of hairs. Tests are now so sensitive that ridiculously small traces are found. In one recent case, DNA was turning up at many and varied crime scenes, and it turned out to be from a technician at the factory where the swabs used in testing were made. In another case, trace DNA was found under the fingernail of a millionaire murdered in a mansion and matched to a homeless man. It turned out to behave been transferred inadvertently a paramedic who had been at the death scenes and who had earlier treated the homeless man and picked up his dna on a medical device.. (I read this in some reliable online news article in the last 2 weeks but do not have a handy link. The point is that DNA detection is very sensitive and perhaps so sensitive as to provide false leads). Edison (talk) 16:56, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
    • Found the article about the false positives from DNA trace analysis:"The false promise of DNA testing," The Atlantic, June 2016. Techs in the past have made huge errors and botched basic DNA tests, sending innocent people to prison. Now they are delivering analyses of trace DNA from a fingerprint or a microscopic drop of sweat or saliva, even when in a mixture of DNA contributions.Edison (talk) 17:09, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
      • Here is a good article from 2015 that discusses secondary DNA transfer. Which probably takes us far afield of the OP's question, but given the direction of the tangent, I thought it an interesting article. --Jayron32 17:37, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Possibly - at least male to female when a fetus is involved. See fetomaternal microchimerism where children's cells can be detected in many mothers even years later and so will contain some of the father's DNA. Rmhermen (talk) 19:20, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Radioactive heat from radium[edit]


If I had a gram of radium metal, how much would it heat the environment around it? Would anything much happen if I put it on a wooden table? (Assuming for the purpose of this question that I am well-protected from the radiation.) Double sharp (talk) 15:26, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Warm, but less hot than a typical incandescent light bulb. Dragons flight (talk) 15:41, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Thank you! Double sharp (talk) 15:57, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Minor nitpicks to Dragons flight's math: this is assuming one gram of pure radium (it tends to be diluted in other stuff), of the 226 isotope (the usual one), and I suspect the 4.87MeV figure refers to the whole radiation, which may or may not dissipate as heat as it meets the table (but going by the WP article, most of the radiation is alpha decay, which does get stopped shortly). TigraanClick here to contact me 16:18, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Radium is a reactive so-called alkali earth metal, and will oxidize rapidly in ordinary air. You will have to keep the radium either in a vacuum jar or a jar containing a non-reactive gas (nitrogen, argon, etc.) or in a hydrocarbon liquid. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:46, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Bear in mind 1 gram is a very small amount of metal (it would be a cube about 5 mm on each side, roughly the size of a small piece of gravel) pressed right up against the table. Let's assume that 1/6th of the energy is absorbed by the wood (since we're dealing with a cube), in a thin layer immediately under the cube (I read that alpha particles are stopped by a sheet of paper, so presumably they don't go much further in wood. Let's be generous and say the bulk of the flux is absorbed by a volume 5mm * 5mm * 1mm). If you ignore heat flow, that bit of wood is going to heat up by about 700 C per second. In reality, you'll get a fair bit of conduction and air cooling, but I built a simple model in a thermal simulator, and it calculated that the wood would reach its burning point - and the radium would reach melting point - very quickly (within a few seconds). Presumably this is why there are no pictures of pure radium on the internet - it's not a thing that can actually exist in a stable state. Think about it this way: what would happen if you were to take the coil out of a lightbulb and press it right against a wooden table? Smurrayinchester 18:36, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
You're right. I wasn't very careful in thinking about the volume being heated. If it is really a pure gram that would get very hot. If it is 1 gram mixed in a base of 99% some other metals (rather more likely), then the resulting temperature would be less. One would need to know more about how the radium is distributed. Dragons flight (talk) 21:53, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
You mean they never found that mine? --Trovatore (talk) 21:07, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Plenty (ok, a few) pictures of radium are on the internet. On wiki(p|m)edia, we even have File:Radium-226.jpg of the isotope in question. DMacks (talk) 19:44, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
The Wikimedia photo is poorly labelled. The image is (purportedly) of a "check source" for a CD V-700 Geiger counter. It's a little bit of radioactive material attached to the instrument that you can use to verify that the probe is working when you're in the field. Its actual radium content is quite low; the measured activity of the source is on the order of 8 nanocuries, meaning that the vast majority of the metal present is non-radioactive filler. I suspect that something similar is true of most other photos you will find of "radium-226" on the internet. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:05, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
File:Radium226.jpg is a more clearly described image. Not a chunk, but a possibly pure-ish surface layer (though unknown how thick the layer is or how completely covered the substrate is). DMacks (talk) 21:41, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
It looks like an extremely thin and spotty film (although admittedly, radium does go yellow-brown when exposed to air). Certainly nowhere near 1 gram. Smurrayinchester 21:50, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Hot humid weather and joints[edit]

I asked a similar question some time ago and got the answer "nobody knows". Here's hoping for an answer to this one! And this is definitely not a request for medical advice. I know what to do thank you.

I have noticed that when the temperature reaches above about 24 degC and the relative humidity over 70, my arthritic joints are in a worse condition than when the temperature is lower and the humidity is lower. Why would this be? --TammyMoet (talk) 18:11, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Take a look at the results of this Google Scholar search and take your pick. Rheumatoid arthritis patients show weather sensitivity in daily life, but the relationship is not clinically significant from 1999 seems to sum up most of the results. Alansplodge (talk) 18:24, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
See Weather pains. Loraof (talk) 22:07, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Blimey we do have an article on everything! Thank you!--TammyMoet (talk) 09:40, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

July 23[edit]

Why is there so much broken pottery buried in every garden in Great Britain?[edit]

Take a spade and start digging in any back garden in Great Britain and you are sure to find loads of broken pottery. Why did people bury their pottery? How old is it? Is it Roman earra? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TTshojo (talkcontribs) 09:15, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Not in my back garden there isn't. It was ancient woodland and common land going back to the Doomsday Book until 1945. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:37, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Until fairly recently all rubbish was simply dumped outside the house, or in a hole in the garden - rubbish collection is a recent invention. Pottery has the distinction, when compared with other rubbish, of being almost indestructible. It is also something which cannot easily be repaired or re-used (unlike metals). It has also always been quite cheap, and easily replaced. If you happen to live somewhere which has been inhabited for a long time, people will have been chucking out their broken pots for many centuries. They chucked out a lot of other rubbish as well - but the pottery is what survives best (which is why archaeologists get so excited about it). Wymspen (talk) 11:20, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
See potsherd for the archaeological significance of this throughout history.
Not just "pottery", it's predominantly Victorian blue and white. It's the product of four things, all of which peaked in the Victorian age: pottery availability (factory potteries made it cheaply available to everyone), pottery fragility (Victorian china will break on a quarry-tiled floor when 17th century heavy slipware on a beaten earth floor will just bounce), refuse handling (greater volumes of middens near the houses) and also the development of the towns themselves and the denser packing of housing. This effect reduces from around 1900, mostly as refuse handling becomes more centralised.
In some towns, like Bristol, it's not pottery but some industrial waste product instead. Dig a garden in South Bristol and it's not long before you find some zinc smelter slag from the Keynsham side of town. That stuff gets everywhere. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:16, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Here in the TMZ, if you dig anywhere[ Citation Needed ] you will find pieces of the broken hopes and dreams of people who moved here hoping to make it in show business... --Guy Macon (talk) 19:19, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
If the OP considers the dates of all that pottery (and he didn't mention clay pipe stems) most will probably date to before hyper-consumerism. The only thing collected by the authorities in those periods would have been night soil. People, did not have TV sets to depose of nor washing machines nor plastic packaging and tin cans. Any glass bottles and jars where reused. If one wanted (say) vinegar, one took the old jar back to grocer to get it refilled from his cask etc. Household supplies where bought loose and not in little packets. Metal was still expensive so any unwanted metal tools, implements were traded in for scrape and recycled so was broken glass. What was left was a small amount of broken pottery that had little recyclable value and thus, was simply dumped in one's back yard. This was also before the time of cigarettes, one could buy a clay pipe of tobacco and then throw the pipe away after smoking it, so this is why you should also find short lengths of small diameter white tubes amongst the stuff you dig up. Around the 1900's local authorities started generating electricity to light the streets. The power-stations were fueled buy rubbish and so dust-bin-men started to collect not just dust (victorian euphemism for nigh soil) but anything dumped in the bin to fuel the boilers. So the mass of 'blue and white' your finding is probably mostly restricted to the period where 'blue & white' became affordable and cheap in an area which was already developed and limited by date to the introduction of the dust-bin-men which signaled the end of having to dump broken pottery in ones own yard. Dig up a garden in a new town such as Milton Keynes and you won't find any.--Aspro (talk) 19:20, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Victorian dustbinmen (at least in Britain) didn't collect night soil. They were two separate trades, and turf was fought over. Particularly in South Bristol, where night soil was something of a local specialty trade (Night soil from the whole city went out through Bedminster, towards the market gardening areas beyond.) Andy Dingley (talk) 00:16, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
I wonder if some part of this issue involves the practicality of moving an outhouse. Every so often those who use them dig another hole and move the thing over it. Over the course of hundreds of years, that's a lot of holes. Wnt (talk) 23:55, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Finasteride and Estradiol[edit]

Do Aromatase inhibitors (which inhibit estrogen) counteract the sexual side effects of Finasteride? They say that Finasteride increases the production of Estradiol! — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 12:41, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

That sounds like a request for medical advice, disguised as a general question. --Hofhof (talk) 13:29, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
The funny thing is, it doesn't matter. All we have to do is refrain from giving medical advice, which does not preclude helping OP find medical information. For an example of this, see my response and references below. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:26, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Here [4] [5] are few scholarly articles about the effects and side effects of Finasteride. They seem to touch upon some of your questions, and you also look through their references, as well as use google scholar to see what papers cite these and search within those papers, like so: [6]. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:25, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Quartary consumers[edit]

Using African animals, what is the most popular quartary consumer?? Given that lions eat cheetahs as well as plant-eaters, they can be either secondary or tertiary. What is the most common quartary consumer when it comes to African animals?? Georgia guy (talk) 14:56, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

You'll never get a clear answer to this, it all depends on your perspective and definitions, which you basically get at in your question.
That being said, we can still offer candidates that might be interesting. One way to get at quaternary consumers is to find a tertiary and see what eats it (searching for "quaternary consumer" is more standard terminology, and may help you find more relevant material [7]). So if you think a lion is tertiary, what eats lions? Lots of things, but the botfly and other parasites are the easy answer, and they tend to be fairly high density in Africa. Here's [8] a nice scholarly survey of the primary eaters of lions. The top eaters-of-lions in terms of incidence are Isospora felix, a protozoan (infecting 48% of sampled lions). The top animal lion eater is a trematode. There are also of course many blood-sucking insects that feed on "top" mammal predators like lions and cheetahs. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:47, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
The other place to get large/long food chains is in aquatic systems, and these then chain into the bird world. I am not that familiar with the freshwater ecology of African, but you can easily see certain raptors that eat insectivore birds as quaternary consumers - so a Bateleur may eat a pratincole, an insectivore bird, the pratincole eats a dragonfly, dragonfly eats another bug, which may or may not eat bugs. Since the dragonflies themselves can be order 4-5 within the aquatic realm, this could put the bateleur up to level 6 or so if you like. Then there's the African_fish_eagle, and again, lots of depth is available in fish-fish-insect-insect food chains. So certain birds of prey will be good candidates, but I'm pretty sure there are many parasites of predatory mammals that are far more numerous :) SemanticMantis (talk) 16:47, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Here [9] [10] are a few scholarly articles on large African mammals and their prey. While they will not specifically answer your question, they will give you good context and further reference. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:47, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Water poisoning is not caused by inadequate salt intake?[edit]

We can read here that the Yanomami indians have a sodium intake of 0.9 mmol/day, which is about 50 mg of salt per day. This is so small compared to even the most salt restrictive diets that you can implement in practice, that it seems to contradict the guidelines that I've read for exercise about drinking and salt intake to prevent water poisoning. Clearly, something is not right about the whole idea to make sure we get in enough salts when this refers to quantities of the orders of grams of salts when the Yanomami indians survive in a tropic conditions doing hard work, drinking a few liters of water per day and getting in hardly any salt at all.

Should drinking a lot of water and taking in salt to prevent water poisoning be compared to doping, similar to injecting yourself with insulin and taking in a large amount of glucose? If an athlete would collapse into a hypoglycemic coma, would we say that this happened because he didn't take in enough glucose, or would be say that insulin doping is the cause? Count Iblis (talk) 18:35, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Your link is talking about the salt content of their urine. For people in modern countries with air conditioning and the ability to avoid hard labor, the salt content of urine may be fairly similar to the salt content of one's food. However, if one is sweating frequently, the salt losses via sweat can exceed the losses due to urine by a large factor (>100 in some cases). Without a clearer source, I would assume their salt intake is actually much larger than 50 mg/day, but that most of it comes out as sweat rather than urine. Dragons flight (talk) 19:07, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
It is well known that you can kill yourself by drinking too much water. I wonder whether drinking too much Pedialyte or Suero Oral would have the same effect? --Guy Macon (talk) 03:35, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Is appearance of white hair in early age belongs to psychological troubles?[edit]

Question moved from Language desk Tevildo (talk) 23:04, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Is appearance of white hair in early age belongs to psychological troubles or it's a result of genetics only or combining of the two? (talk) 19:39, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

See Human_hair_color#Stress. Rojomoke (talk) 20:21, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

July 24[edit]


July 19[edit]

trigonometry for a robot arm[edit]

I am trying to program a robot-arm, for which I first made equations of how angles determine the position of the tip.
Mx are the motors, segxx are the segments they control and cfmx are correction factors (when 0° is not a convenient angle).

x = cos(M0+cfm0) * (seg02 + cos(M1)*seg1 + cos(M2+cfm2-90)*seg21 + cos(M2+cfm2)*seg22)
y = sin(M0) * (seg02 + cos(M1)*seg1 + cos(M2+cfm2-90)*seg21 + cos(M2+cfm2)*seg22)
z = seg01 + sin(M1)*seg1 + cos(M2+cfm2)*seg21 + cos(M2+cfm2+90)*seg22 - seg3

But I want that in reverse, find the angles for a certain position.
From the last two equations I get this:

M0 = arcsin (y / (seg02 + cos(M1)*seg1 + cos(M2+cfm2-90)*seg21 + cos(M2+cfm2)*seg22))
M1 = arcsin ((z - seg01 - cos(M2+cfm2)*seg21 - cos(M2+cfm2+90)*seg22 + seg3) / seg1)

But how do I find M2? It is split in two parts, because segment 2 is not 'in line' with M2. DirkvdM (talk) 11:12, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Note: I have limited it to a situation where there can only be one solution - seg3 always points down, so I left M3 out of the equation because M2+M3=constant, so I can do that calculation afterwards. DirkvdM (talk) 12:06, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

I've dealt with this problem before, and, indeed, the issue was that the equations were under-constrained. That is, there was more than one solution (locking a joint, as you did, might well over-constrain the problem, meaning there is no solution).
I ended up using a numerical methods hill-climbing approach instead. That is, I virtually moved one joint a step (starting with the first joint, that is, the one farthest from the "hand"), determined if that movement put the tip closer or farther from the target, and kept going if it was closer, or went the reverse direction otherwise. When it went from going closer in one step to farther in the next, I went on and did the same thing in the next joint, using the closest position for the first joint. I then did the same for the remaining joint(s).
I then went back to the first joint and tried moving it one step each way to see if changing it would now put the tip closer to the target. I continued to iterate until no change occurred in any joint for a full iteration.
Now this approach isn't absolutely guaranteed to be optimal for all theoretical joint geometries, but it does tend to be "good enough" for robot joints which are actually used. As far as performance goes, any delay due to calculation time is trivial compared to the time it takes to move the joints. A gantry robot, moving in X, Y, and Z directions, doesn't have all this control complexity, so is far easier to program. StuRat (talk) 13:24, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia does not have an article on that, but the term to search in your favorite search engine is "inverse kinematics problem". You will find, among others, chapter 3 of [11]. TigraanClick here to contact me 16:58, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia does have an article on inverse kinematics. -- BenRG (talk) 23:12, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
StuRat, that is pretty much the solution I came up with, except making a virtual move of all segements at the same time, based on some heuristics (I have yet to come up with :) ). And of course the first steps are big, and every time it overshoots the target, stepsize is reduced (eg halved), until the fault is smaller than the accuracy of the robot (or what is required for the task at hand).
But then I thought that surely there must be a better way. But apparently, the iteration is a normal approach, so I will use that. (I suck at trigonometry, so this makes me quite happy. :) ) I had my doubts about it, because if the microcontroller in the robot (an Arduino Due) has to do this, it might be very slow. Though speed is not really an issue. I might even pre-program most moves, because many are fixed, and the robot can then do the fine-tuning.
Tigraan, I also found that article, but I'm no mathamatician, and I just need to solve one specific problem (for now ...).
Btw, I also tried Pythagoras, but got stuck there too. Apparently, there is no solution for √(a² -b²). Well, it is √(a+b) * √(a-b), but that doesn't help. The paper uses polar coordinates (p 98), a combination of Pythagoras and trigonometry. Maybe I'll look into that later (if I am to become the company's robotics 'expert' :) ). DirkvdM (talk) 08:57, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
I think my iterative method will work better, because the arms are typically set up so that moving the first joint causes more movement in the tip than the later joints. Therefore, you want to do the rough adjustments before you do the fine tuning. Also, if you move all joints at once, you don't know which joint movements made it closer and which may have been counter-productive. To do some quick calculations, if each joint has N possible positions, and there are M joints, my method might take about MN calculations, as a worst case scenario, and half that, on average. So, we would likely be in the thousands of calculations, not millions or billions. For any modern processor, that should be trivial.
But, if you do want to optimize my method, you could add in your method of starting with large steps, then reducing the step size, on the first joint, then repeating for the 2nd joint, etc. StuRat (talk) 13:32, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, you're probably right about doing one segment at a time. Except maybe when it is obvious that the goal is so far away that the first segement alone can't reach it. But that requires a programming effort that is probably not necessary given the speed of even a microcontroller. I just put the three equations in a loop and even when I let the program do the calculations 10 million times it takes about 8 s. That's for 11 trigonometric calculations. I thought those might take relatively long, but even then, computers have become mind-bogglingly fast. Even if the microcontroller is ten times slower, it will still not be an issue. DirkvdM (talk) 15:22, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
I don't see why doing one joint at a time won't work, even when one segment alone isn't long enough to reach. I suggest you try my approach and yours, and benchmark both. Something else you might want to add, after either method, is to just try every permutation of every joint, say within 10 steps each way, once you reach the supposedly optimal solution. This a double check. StuRat (talk) 16:20, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
I didn't say your method wouldn't work in that case, just that it might be done with fewer calculations. But that's only in such an instance, which would have to be checked first, and then it would require extra programming for a negligible advantage. So just ignore that remark.
If the stepsize halves with each iteration then after just 10 iterations you already get a precision that is 1024 times smaller then the initial step. I just realised that if that first step is 90° I don't need to check the distance to reduce step size, because the maximum range of the motors is 180°. I just need to check in which direction it should go (so if the target is overshot). And then the (theoretical!) precision of the motors of 0,18° is already reached after 9 iterations. So for 3 motors, as in this case, the 3 calculations need only be done 30 times, which is a far cry from those 10 million.
However, this isn't entirely correct. In this case there is only 1 solution. M0 rotates along the z-axis, and that is independent of the others, so the above method works for that. But M1 and M2 are interdependent. So I suppose I should do the calculations for both and then check which one brings the tip closer to the target. That shouldn't add much to the number of calculations. But even if it grows a hundredfold (which it certainly won't) that will still amount to a negligible overall calculation time.
To finish this off, the calculations have to be done for both the start and end position (unless the start position is already know, resulting from the last move). And then, to let the arm make a nice linear movement, I can calculate the speeds of the motors as the relative distances they have to move. Eg if the angle change of M1 is twice that of M2, then its speed should also be twice that of M2. Calculating the overall (linear) speed is relatively unimportant, I'd say. It just shouldn't be too high (it's a cheap robot arm, so easy does it).
About your double check, that sounds like a good idea, although I wonder if my method for M1 and M2 doesn't already cover that. At first I misunderstood, thinking it was to make sure the local optimum is also the global one. But there is only one optimum.
I don't believe we can guarantee that there is no local optimum which differs from the global optimum. Seems like just due to rounding, the step size, and how moving a joint changes more than one dimension at a time, including the locations of subsequent joints, there could be some. And there may be multiple solutions, each of which has it's own local optimums near it's global optimum. So, your method should quickly find a pretty good solution, while mine takes a bit longer (but trivially so) while finding a better solution. Exhaustively trying every combination of every joint is the only way to guarantee the global optimum for the best solution, but that really would be prohibitively slow. Another approach is to start with "polling", say virtually moving the first joint into each of 10 evenly spaced positions, then taking the best of those and subdividing the increments before and after by 1/10th the former size, and repeating until you get down to the minimum steps size. As before, repeat for each subsequent joint. This is similar to your approach but rather than subdividing by 2 we use a larger number. The larger the number the more calcs, which affects the trade-off between most optimal solution and quickest calcs.
Now if you want straight line movement of the tip from the start to end positions, that does rather complicate things. First, it may not always be possible, because some joint would need to go past it's limit to continue, so must now turn back all the way. When it is possible, I would expect you would need to find the target intermediate points, and repeat our method of finding the optimal joint positions for each. However, for each target point, rather than starting the calcs with each joint at 0, you would start the calcs with each joint where it was for the last target point, then go up or down by the minimal step size to optimize. As for dealing with hitting joint limits, if that happens, then we need to use a different solution for the starting position. For a screw-type joint, it may well rotate more than 360 degrees, say from 0 to 720. In that case, if our calcs show starting at 1 degree causes us to hit the limit at one of the intermediate points, we may want to start at 361 degrees, instead. StuRat (talk) 15:04, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

July 20[edit]

Four things[edit]

I just want to make sure I'm thinking about this right. Given four things, like A, B, C and D, what are the chances you'll get a matching order of any two? I already figured out that there are 6x4 permutations of ABCD. It looks as though for any given pair I "guess", it will only show up twice. So the probability of guessing two in the right order is 2/24. Is there a more mathematically sound approach to arriving at this (hopefully correct) answer? Thanks. Dumnum (talk) 02:35, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

So you have ABCD in every possible order, right ? I agree that there are 24 ways to do that. As for a "matching pair", do you mean AB, BC, or CD, adjacent to each other ? And are you looking two in adjacent order, like ABCD or CDAB ? If so, then I agree there are only 2 ways to do that. StuRat (talk) 03:32, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Good question. I think I misunderstood the problem. The problem is to find the probability of finding a matching set of two when trying to guess the order of the four items. So the pattern would then be for a match of 2: XX00 X0X0 X00X 0XX0 0X0X 00XX... meaning 6/24, if I'm not mistaken this time. Dumnum (talk) 03:59, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
  • By brute force: there are nine permutations with zero matches (BADC BCDA BDAC CADB CDAB CDBA DABC DCAB DCBA), eight permutations with one match (ACDB ADBC BCAD BDCA CABD CBDA DACB DBAC), six permutations with two matches (ABDC ACBD ADCB BACD CBAD DBCA), and one with four matches (ABCD). —Tamfang (talk) 06:47, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
  • A more general question would be: among permutations of elements, how many have exactly fixed points (i.e. "matches")? There is no simple analytical answer to that, but Wikipedia has an article on the subject: rencontres numbers. TigraanClick here to contact me 10:58, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Interesting. Thanks! Dumnum (talk) 03:15, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Weighted expression[edit]

What are possible values of the following weighted expression w containing the weights w1, w2 with values between 0 and 1:


More specifically, how is the position of value w between w1 and w2 influenced by the values of functions rhoi of weights wi?-- (talk) 09:41, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but note that this expression needn't be between and , because can be outside . -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 09:47, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
More exactly, what is the sensitivity of the expression to different values of set by definition outside when the values of the weights are fixed to, say, and ? (An additional specification would be that the resulting w has an associated value between .)-- (talk) 10:02, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
A weighted expression would normally have a sum of weights underneath in the fraction. You treat as weights but then here talk about the as a weight, which in fact would be a more usual notation. See Weighted arithmetic mean. I'm not certain what is behind the second part you talk about. The nearest I can think is you want a sum of the input weights to be associated with a weighted average. Dmcq (talk) 10:18, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
I treat not as weights but as parameters in a weighted expression with various constraints. It could be assimilated to a weighted average. w is a weight only in association to the parameter .-- (talk) 10:49, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
People are confused because what you wrote is an expression where the rhos are the weights, if anything. Are you sure you did not mean  ? (Compare with what you posted) TigraanClick here to contact me 11:00, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps this is a bit unusual situation where terminology could be adjusted to fit the picture. Does the situation changes much in the case of the last mentioned expression compared to the first expression?-- (talk) 19:34, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Could w from the initial expression lie outside ? In what conditions? Or its values are always between based on w1 and w2 belonging to this interval?-- (talk) 21:11, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
w can be outside (and actually, take any value), because can be negative. If for example , then for any , take , and you get . (You have a similar solution for any , as long as they're different.)
I'm inclined to think this is an XY question. You have some problem you wish to solve, after thinking about it you came to believe (erroneously) that working with your expression w above will help you, so you ask about that expression. It could help if you tell us what your original problem is, and we might be able to help you come up with a better solution. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 21:39, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for specifying the values for rhos, an additional restriction that I've forgot to mention consisting in rhos being only greater than zero.-- (talk) 22:09, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
In this case you're good - w is a proper weighted average of , and so must be between them, and specifically, in . -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 08:38, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Of course the initial expression can have on both numerator and denominator a constant V which simplifies:

-- (talk) 21:26, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

The original problem that leads to the discussed expression is about mass balance when mixing equal volumes of two binary solutions of different mass fractions of solute. I've added some details in mixing ratio and I intend to further add extensions of cases.-- (talk) 22:29, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

July 22[edit]

Does every natural satisfy that cannot be any power of any natural number - with a natural exponential bigger than 1?[edit]

Please notice, that if the " + " is replaced by " - " , then the conjecture is incorrect: Check: n=3. Additionally, if the " 2 " is replaced by another natural number, then the conjecture is unnecessarily correct. Check: replacing " 2 " by " 1 " while n=3, or replacing " 2 " by " 3 " while n=2. HOTmag (talk) 11:22, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

See Catalan's conjecture. --RDBury (talk) 11:42, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
You kept changing the question while I wrote answers and then I got beaten. Catalan's conjecture, proved by Preda Mihăilescu, says 23 + 1 = 32 is the only case of powers one apart. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:45, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Didn't mean to step on your answer, sorry. Mihăilescu's proof is pretty high powered so I wonder if there is an elementary proof for this special case, or for the case n2+1 = m3. --RDBury (talk) 11:54, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Thank you RDBury, and thank you PrimeHunter. HOTmag (talk) 11:48, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

July 24[edit]

Sine Function[edit]

Hi, is that true that is -periodic (for every )? (talk) 05:57, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes. The constant factor α makes no difference to the periodicity. —Tamfang (talk) 06:28, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Thank you! (talk) 09:07, 24 July 2016 (UTC)


July 19[edit]

Yggdrasil and the Tree of Life[edit]

Has there been any attempt to have the Elder Futhark Runes connect the nine worlds of Yggdrasil in a manner similar to how the Hebrew alphabet connects the Sephirot of the Tree of Life in Kabbalah? I know this would not be historical but I'm amazed I can't find any attempts to do this in the works of any of the modern occultists who have worked with runes (not that I've scoured every single page of every single book, which is why I'm here).

I've found this arrangement of 24 connections between the nine worlds (which works with most occultists lists of runes I've found), but it's paired with the 18 Armanen runes (which doesn't really work with 24 connections given). I'm seeing that design in some of the work of Stephen Flowers, but he doesn't appear to map what rune goes to what connection (at least in whatever I've got ahold of at the moment).

Thanks much, and don't worry about the source being WP:RS. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:54, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Resolved: And of course something finally comes up on my search results after asking. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:30, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
And Thomas Karlsson gives something closer to a reliable source in Uthark (not that this is going to end up in an article). Ian.thomson (talk) 14:00, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

US police in different states[edit]

There's currently lots of US news coverage looking at the Republican National Convention, as can be expected. As this event is beyond normal for the Cleveland Division of Police, the city's depending on visiting officers from across the country. How does this work, jurisdictionally? Is some interstate compact required? Or do the visitors simply get permission from their superiors to leave for Ohio, and then the visitors get deputized by officials in Cleveland? Nyttend (talk) 03:08, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

The out-of-state police officers were officially sworn in as Ohio police officers [13]. The article doesn't say precisely which jurisdiction they have been sworn in under, or how the police arranged for their leave to Ohio. It is mentioned that though that only actual Cleveland police officers will be handling arrests. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:45, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Daniel Paul Schreber[edit]

What would be the correct description in English of the position held by Daniel Paul Schreber at the onset of his psychiatric illness? That page doesn't specify, and my source text gives "president of the High Court of Appeals for Dresden, Germany." My rudimentary German is insufficient for this task. -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:34, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Oberlandesgericht has an article. Here some proposed translations. And I would prefer "in Dresden", for the court was in Dresden and its district for appeals was Saxony. The German "Senatspräsident" might imply that he was one out of a couple of chairmen or presidents of senates (chambers), the only chairman or president would be named "Oberlandesgerichtspräsident", but that depends on the exact organization of that institution in 1893. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 16:21, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Executions of Tudor Queens[edit]

Anne Boleyn, as our article makes clear, was executed by a swordsman, the axe being deemed too common for a Queen.

Our article on Catherine Howard mentions she was beheaded with an axe, a claim backed up with a reference to a blog, although it in turn quotes what looks like a RS mentioning an axe.

Wikipedia's big of Lady Jane Grey, however, includes no citation about the method of execution, merely implying an axe, saying: "Referring to her head, she asked, "Will you take it off before I lay me down?", and the axeman answered: "No, madam."" The oblique mention of an "axeman" intrigued me, so I followed through to the [decent] source given at the end of the paragraph, which doesn't mention an axe once. Perversely, the executioner is referred to there as the "hangman".

So, was Lady Jane Grey beheaded with an axe or a sword? Any RS?

Also, who was the Tudor whose beheading became a bit shambolic, requiring many strokes of the axe? I think it preceded Anne Boleyn, and may have been one of the reasons why they brought in an expert for her.

Cheers --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 07:44, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Margaret Pole had a notoriously incompetent execution. The "Chronicle of Queen Jane" and Holinshead's description of Jane's execution include the use of a block, which would imply an axe - no block was used with a sword - but this may not be completely definitive. Tevildo (talk) 08:00, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. With a sword, would they just kneel with their head down? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:16, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, if the sword is sharp, heavy, fast, and well aimed, it should cut straight through. The Vikings, among others, used the exact same execution method (the Jómsvíkinga saga contains a quite well-known example of such an execution going wrong). The block is necessary because an axe is a wedge and puts up a lot more resistance. Smurrayinchester 09:05, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Just loved that. Thank you. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:10, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
There was also a bit of trouble in the beheading of Mary, Queen of Scots, where "[t]he first blow missed her neck and struck the back of her head. The second blow severed the neck, except for a small bit of sinew, which the executioner cut through using the axe." AndrewWTaylor (talk) 19:31, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
He should practice more. They should hire professional livestock beheaders. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:19, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
The Spectator article "Anne Boleyn's last secret" states "Anne, alone among all victims of the Tudors, was to be beheaded with a sword and not the traditional axe" (bolding mine) and goes on to speculate why. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:22, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Oh, that's a great find, Clarity, thank you. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:37, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

ribbon colors[edit]

Recently, in addition to the blue and yellow ribbon following the Dallas police shooting, I saw another ribbon following the Baton Rouge police shooting. The ribbon seemed like it was in different colors. What were they?2604:2000:7113:9D00:F093:4E6:4A4F:D280 (talk) 08:43, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Hard to say, but a black ribbon is common for mourning. A yellow ribbon is symbolically for the missing, so that seems less appropriate. The blue ribbon is typically a symbol of quality, but in this case was probably in reference to blue police uniforms. StuRat (talk) 14:42, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
The Thin Blue Line (emblem) may have some useful reading on this topic. --Jayron32 15:49, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Translating bishops[edit]

According to our article on the Cadaver Synod, the Bulgarians (probably a mistake for the Bulgars) asked to have the future Pope Formosus made their bishop, but Pope St. Nicholas I refused because fulfilling this request would necessarily require Formosus to leave his existing see, an action prohibited by a decision of the Second Council of Nicaea. Today, the Church still recognises the council's decisions, but it's quite common for the Pope to move a bishop from one see to another, and nobody complains that it's a violation of canon law. When did it become legal, or at least when did it become accepted, for a bishop to change sees with papal permission? I don't see Pope Nicholas objecting on legal grounds if it were considered appropriate for him to do, and the writing makes it sound as if Formusus was consulting him, rather than just sneaking off to Bulgar-land without attempting to get permission. Nyttend (talk) 21:52, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

It's actually the First Council of Nicaea that prohibited transfers - see canon 15 of Nicaea I here. Apparently it didn't quite stop, because the Second Council of Nicaea also said that bishops can't be transferred, or more specifically that they can't hold two sees at once (see here, also canon 15). Bishops were canonically considered to be sort of "married" to their see, so they couldn't leave just like a marriage couldn't be dissolved. This started to change in the 11th century with the Gregorian reforms and the transformation of the church into powerful, secular(-ish) monarchy. The previous century had a long stretch of incompetent and just plain terrible popes - a competent bishop couldn't be appointed from elsewhere, so the popes tended to be appointed from the local clergy in Rome. Pope Gregory VII changed that and decreed that he could appoint, depose, and transfer bishops if he so desired (in his Dictatus papae). Afterwards, as you mentioned, bishops were transferred all the time. I'm sure this must have been incorporated into the Decretum Gratiani and subsequent canon law collections, so it was no longer uncanonical, but I can't find a specific reference at the moment. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:43, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

July 21[edit]

Country in Europe with highest rape rate[edit]

Which country has the highest rate of rape in Europe? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 00:15, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

First take a giant boulder of salt: Apparently Sweden. However, rape is believed to be severely under reported in every country, and data gathering methods and even the definition of rape vary from country to country. Sweden has the most rapes reported to the police of any European country, but there is no reason to suspect this statistic correlates to actually having the most rapes. The article I linked goes into the details for each country that make it hard to compare the national statistics. Most countries have also had scientific surveys conducted in an attempt to estimate the true rate of rape, but comparing these from country to country puts you up against methodological differences and once again, culturally distinct definitions of rape. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:51, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
"Sweden has the most rapes reported to the police of any European country" - probably true but I'm not sure if we have actual evidence it's true. The article you linked to discusses Sweden having the highest reported statistics to UNODC worldwide but this is a somewhat distinct point. Far as I can tell (and supported by our article), there's nothing stopping countries reporting whatever statistics they want to the UNODC other than pressure from their populance and others. Even if a country has published statistics of police reports, they could report something completely different to the UNODC, I'm not seeing anything in the article suggesting anyone has actually looked in to this possibility. More importantly would be those who collate but don't publish police reports statistics, and report something else to the UNODC. Then there will be those who don't collate police reports, but somehow come up with figures to send to the UNODC. And in either case, a country could also publicise the UNODC figures as police report figures even though they aren't. In the absence of a whistle-blower or public admission, we'll have no way of even knowing for sure about these. And I'm not even sure the UNODC figures are supposed to be police reports, or whether convictions etc would be something a country could resonable feel is what they should report.
Perhaps not so relevant here but a country could just not report to the UNODC. Various pressures means European countries are more likely to report. In fact the only ones who aren't on the 2013 UNODC list seem to be Kosovo and Vatican City who I presume probably can't report as they aren't members of the UN, San Marino who maybe don't bother given their tiny size, but most interesting of all Italy. Italy do report sexual violence and sexual offences against children, but aren't in the rape section. Since the sexual violence figures are supposed to include rape and they are lower than the Sweden rape figures, this means Italy can't be higher. (Strangely our article includes the sexual violence figures for Italy for the first few years.) A few also didn't report in 2013 or a few years before, although their previous figures were significantly lower than Sweden. Still the point is even if we were to take the 2013 UNODC report as a completely accurate tally of police reports, we couldn't actually say Sweden is higher than Malaysia or Cambodia from the report since neither are included.
Nil Einne (talk) 18:28, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

This is a simple question that you'd think would have a simple answer, but it's not so easy because rape is often not reported - sometimes wisely. Our article cites a UN document that does in fact show Sweden with the highest rate, 53.2 per 100,000 in 2008, up from 24.9 in 2003 in a steady rise over those years. The only higher rate is Lesotho with 91.6 per 100,000. The catch is that Egypt, for example, has a statistic of just 0.1 per 100,000 - literally 1 in 1 million. So we have rape statistics but they are not real. Wnt (talk) 18:11, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

the Bomb[edit]

I wonder which event "the Bomb" in the following sentence refers to. "After Pearl Harbor and before D-day and the Bomb, there was the Doolittle raid on Tokyo." ( "'Target Tokyo' brings a well-known WWII story back to life" by Tony Perry) Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 00:20, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Dropping the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:38, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 01:47, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Was there an underground railroad to Mexico for escaped slaves?[edit]

I know there was the Underground Railroad to Canada for American black slaves. Mexico abolished slavery in 1829. Right? Was there a similar underground railroad to Mexico for escaped African-American slaves? Did more slaves go to Canada or go to Mexico? 2607:FEA8:A760:35C:ADB0:8DB4:AE65:6453 (talk) 02:39, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Underground Railroad states in the first paragraph "Various other routes led to Mexico or overseas." The article "South to Freedom" agrees. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:58, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Non-Nazi swastika[edit]

Besides the example surrounding the controversy over a Pokemon trading card are there any other similar cases of Westerners being offended or trying to ban the use of non-Nazi swastika especially in Asia.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:46, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

See the "Efforts to remove historical swastikas" section of Western use of the swastika in the early 20th century. Apparently one idiot wrote in my campus paper, when I was still working on campus, in an attempt to get the swastika tiles removed from the Men's Gymnasium (Indiana University). Nyttend (talk) 03:34, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Prior to the rise of Nazism and its adoption of the swastika, some editions of Rudyard Kipling's books were bound in covers decorated with the Indian symbol. He ordered the discontinuation of this when the Nazis rose to prominence [which I now see is mentioned in Nyttend's first linked article], and while offhand I'm not aware of any instances of offense taken and complaints, investigation might reveal some.
Incidentally, as well as being asian, the swastika (which has various other names), often considered as a "sun-wheel" symbol, appears in the very ancient European Vinča script – which may or may not have been a form of writing – as illustrated in the second external link of that article. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230,195) (talk) 03:45, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Not mentioned in the article is the Navajo/Hopi (Anasazi) use of the symbol. (Do your own search; I'm too tired right now --g'nite) 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:79CC:9632:9DD5:631F (talk) 05:49, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
The Customs House in Sydney uses swastika ("fylfot") tiling, and the approach of the building's management has been to erect an explanatory sign. This article also talks about other approaches to dealing with pre-Nazi swastikas in the West.
In East Asia, swastikas are traditionally used as a shorthand symbol for Buddhist temples or Buddhism, but Japan recently bowed to international confusion and stopped using it to indicate temples in tourist maps. But it's still commonly seen in Buddhist iconography even today, as far as I can tell without any local controversy.
The charitable Red Swastika Society, though not as influential as it was before World War II, is apparently still alive and well. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:21, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
  • On the flip side, see Swastika Laundry, an Irish laundering service that not only used the swastika as its logo, but painted it in black on a white field with a red background, yet somehow managed to keep its design until the 1980s. Smurrayinchester 12:31, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

1848-1849 in Europe - Government system changes?[edit]

Hello, as i'm new to this subject, i would like to know, if there were any government system changes in European countries in the time from 1848 to 1849 besides France. For example from absolute monarchy to constitutional monarchy, parliamentary monarchy or republic. --KaterBegemot (talk) 10:02, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Revolutions of 1848 is an overview article with links to articles on events in individual countries. --Wrongfilter (talk) 10:30, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
As noted in the article, there are two persepctives on the question. 1) Did the revolutions of 1848 cause any immediate and direct changes of political systems and 2) Did the revolutions of 1848 cause any lasting and long term shifts in the politics of Europe. The general historical consensus on 1) is no; because in almost every case, the actual revolutions themselves were shut down and the old order re-established in the immediate aftermath. The consensus on 2) is absolutely yes, as 1848 is the year where the tide change occurred; the events of that year is what laid the groundwork (over more than a century and a half of frequently violent upheaval) of the democratization of Europe. There are, of course, a few exceptions: Denmark is one noted in that article, as it's liberalized constitutional monarchy established in 1848 was not overthrown. --Jayron32 14:48, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Full title of Dalí's 1950 painting "Myself at the age of six"[edit]

What is the correct full title of Salvador Dalí's painting "Myself at the age of six" (1950)? I have found several variations, but the following seems to be correct: "Moi-même à l'âge de six ans, quand je croyais être petite fille, en train de soulever avec une extrême précaution la peau de la mer pour observer un chien dormant à l'ombre de l'eau". Curiously, the part "quand je croyais être petite fille" is often dropped, although I personally find it to be the most remarkable part of the title. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:55, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Oddly, the Dali Foundation's catalogue raisonné uses the third person ("Dalí at the Age of Six, When He Thought He Was a Girl, Lifting the Skin of the Water to See a Dog Sleeping in the Shade of the Sea"), but leaves out the thinking-he-was-a-girl part in French, while giving it in English, Catalan, and Castilian Spanish. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:10, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
René Passeron in his Encyclopédie du surréalisme (1975), Paris: Éditions Somogy, appears to give the following title: "Dali à l'âge de six ans quand il croyait être une jeune fille, en train de soulever la peau de l'eau, pour voir un chien dormir à l'ombre de la mer", compare here. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:10, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
However, this mysteriously omits "avec une extrême précaution". It's really frustrating. Every source, even among the reliable-appearing ones, appears to give a different variant of the title. Compare this source, which again has the first person: "Moi-même à l'âge de six ans quand je croyais être petite fille, en train de soulever avec une extrême précaution la peau de la mer, pour observer un chien dormant à son ombre". It's maddening. Why do people find it so difficult to get the freaking title right? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:28, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
And just to add to the confusion, I also found Yo, a la edad angélica, levantando con precaución la piel del agua para observar un perro dormido a la sombra del mar (my emphasis) in "París, Nueva York, Madrid: Picasso y Dalí ante las grandes exposiciones internacionales" by Miguel Cabañas Bravo and Idoia Murga Castro. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:22, 22 July 2016 (UTC) may be the best place to go, the Salvador Dalí Museum. Alternately, you could email, which appears to be the main email address for the Dalí Theatre and Museum at Figueres, his home town in Spain. Nyttend (talk) 12:15, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Thank you. I have tried both. Let's see. I was under the impression that Dalí usually gave titles in French to his paintings, but this assumption of mine might be mistaken. I suspect there may not be an authentic title, as this painting (like apparently many paintings in general, not just Dalí's) does not bear an inscribed title, but there should at least be a canonical or "official" title. I don't know if this is something specific to this painting, or to Dalí or to long titles, but it strikes me as odd that all these numerous sources would disagree and give so many variants, and that there should not be one conventional, agreed-on title, perhaps found in some "official" index or catalogue, approved and used by academic experts. I must admit ignorance about art history, but I thought in musicology, an analogous function is fulfilled by registers such as catalogues of classical compositions. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:41, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

A definitive English title for the painting may be that given in the 2-volume Surrealism edited by Daniel Filipacchi (1970 Heron Books, ISBN: 0810969211): "Myself at the Age of Six When I Thought I Was a Girl Lifting with Extreme Precaution the Skin of the Sea to Observe a Dog Sleeping in the Shade of the Water"[14] names the painting in the 3rd person: "Dali at the Age of Six When He Thought He Was a Girl Lifting the Skin of the Water to See the Dog Sleeping in the Shade of the Sea". Another version reads: "Dali, at the age of six, when he thought he was a girl, lifting the skin of the sea to watch the dog sleeping in its shadow."[15]

An etching signed by Dali was also sold[16] with title "Myself at the Age of Six...". It differs slightly from the painting in that the girl child is bent forward and there is a chapel building behind her.

Incidentally, the dog in the painting looks borrowed from Ayne Bru's 16th century painting The Martyrdom of Saint Cucuphas.

Other age-related declarations by Salvador Dali include: "At the age of six I wanted to be a cook. At seven I wanted to be Napoleon. And my ambition has been growing steadily ever since."[17] [18]

"Infraterrestrials Adored by Dali at the Age of Six when he Thought Himself an Insect" (Engraving 1974 [19])

"Myself at The Age of Ten When I Was The Grasshopper Child" (1933 painting[20] [21]) AllBestFaith (talk) 22:44, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

For all those who get bored at trying to understand Salvador Dali's ambiguous lists of lines there is the other (number one) surrealist painter René Magritte. His own lines all make immediate sense (although who can ascertain they are sincere ?) .--Askedonty (talk) 20:31, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Two questions about mass shootings in the United States[edit]

1. Most, if not almost all mass shootings in the United States end with the death of the perpetrator (usually by suicide, although occassionally by being shot to death by police or other armed individuals). In cases where the shooting ended with the death of the perpetrator, were there any efforts to save the life of the perpetrator (i.e. to try and treat his wounds, or to revive him after he shoots himself/has been shot)? Also, in cases which end in the perpetrator's suicide, did police and other officials make any effort to at least attempt to arrest the perpetrator before he could commit suicide?

2. How come in the cases I'm aware of, there is no media coverage about the fate of the perpetrator after death (i.e. funeral details, etc.), and at least in the media, the perpetrator's name is usually not listed in the list of names of fatalities? This refers not just to mass shootings but to murder cases in the United States in general.

Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 22:52, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

2) Many such mass shootings seem to be designed to get media coverage, and not listing their name is supposed to reduce copy-cat attacks. StuRat (talk) 22:52, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
You have not provided any evidence for your first claim. The second claim involves pressworthiness *"Who cares?") and I hope, as CSD has said, damnatio memoriae which is every so often called for in the press, and which I try to abide by myself. μηδείς (talk) 23:53, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
For my first question, my source would be List of spree killers by number of victims, the section on North America suggests that most end in the death of the perpetrator. Also, I've asked similar questions about spree killings here on the Reference desk before. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:58, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
You should be aware, then, that (1) wikipedia is not a RS, and (2), that most multiple shootings are domestic violence, not spree shootings. Perhaps you can reword your question as a well-defined request for references? And why exactly is the US named? As far as I am aware, Anders Breivik is the worst known spree killer in history. A definition of spree killer in respect to references, regardless of country might help. Otherwise it looks like you wnt to make a point or start a debate, neither of which is appropriate here. μηδείς (talk) 04:08, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel killed more than Brevik, and is also not American. --Jayron32 11:23, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Burial places would be a matter of public record, but that doesn't mean the papers want to make a thing out of it. Such info could lead to vandalism and/or memorials to the perp. The average cemetery wouldn't want that. As for Anders Breivik, it's most unfortunate that he doesn't yet have a burial place to visit. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:12, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Bad planning on his part? —Tamfang (talk) 08:07, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
I just came across the phrase "spree killer". Who invented it? (talk) 11:56, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Looking at (a pay site), I'm seeing the expression used as far back as the early 1900s. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:37, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
There are news reports about the burial [22] - generally speaking though, it's hard because the more careful cemeteries want nothing to do with it; the corpse tends to roam around like a garbage barge looking for a place to drop out of sight. So it's low profile and well after the initial wave of news reports by the time the deed is done, and generally with a deliberate effort by all involved to avoid any publicity arising from the act whatsoever. (in the case I cited above, it was public officials who tipped the story with a death certificate; otherwise the family and cemetery would have kept it under wraps) Wnt (talk) 15:01, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

July 22[edit]


In most charity organisations, do volunteers do most of the frontline service delivery with paid staff doing office admin and high level management? 2A02:C7D:B945:6400:2897:1BD0:7DBA:B99D (talk) 10:21, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

That is very variable - and it rather depends on the type of work the charity is doing. Some make a lot of use of volunteers, with very few paid staff, while others who undertake more complex work requiring professional skills may have mainly paid front line staff (with volunteers more involved in fund raising and support roles). In the UK, where I have worked for several charities, the majority of registered charities are, in fact, quite small, local organisations. Those tend to be very dependent on volunteers - some may have no paid employees at all, while others may only have one or two. Wymspen (talk) 15:18, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
In the UK I expect most charities are as you say but some surprising institutions have charitable status. Most (all?) public schools (exclusive private schools in any other part of the world) are charities[23]and I suppose just about everyone is paid. I used to work for a scientific research institute which was a charity and we all got paid at rates comparable to the public sector. The only volunteers would be (1) young people getting work experience, (2) people doing PhD and MSc research (are they volunteers?), (3) people who have retired but want to continue with their research and (4) members of the public volunteering to take part as subjects in scientific experiments. Thincat (talk) 17:37, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Could the reported rape rate in Sweden be partly attributed to an increase in immigration?[edit]

Our article Rape in Sweden says that the rape rate was up to 69 per 100,000 in 2014. It also says that in 1996 it was published that between 1985 and 1989, half the rapes committed were by immigrants. The catch is that when I take this document and put it into Google Translate, I'm seeing something about 15 percent and 18 percent. I would highly appreciate it if someone who actually speaks Swedish could check this fact; and I would also highly appreciate it if the troll fighters would take less interest in saving the Refdesk from bad questions and more in saving readers of our articles from bad answers. Wnt (talk) 18:25, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

If you want things in article fixed then the talk pages for said articles is the place to post your concerns. MarnetteD|Talk 19:06, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
@Wnt I speak Swedish. As a cross check to Google Translate, I recommend for translating your Swedish source. The nature of yourthe heading question is too tendentious, in that it invites an inflammatory answer "yes, it could partly" on the flimsiest of possible grounds, and it is therefore closed for discussion here. AllBestFaith (talk) 21:30, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
The reported rape rate is increasing. That does not mean that the actual rape rate is increasing. It could even be a positive sign, if you assume that less and less women are letting rapists get away with it. Hofhof (talk) 18:03, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Exactly. It's even possible that white men are significantly less likely to be accused because they tend to be in positions of power more frequently than immigrants, which discourages rape reports because survivors of rape are often in some sort of dependency relationship with their rapists. This could give the misleading impression that immigrants commit disproportionally many rapes (or other crimes) when they are really just much more likely to be accused, caught, or convicted. (Same with black men in the United States.) White (and male, etc.) privilege is a thing, folks. Scepticism does not mean jumping to the "politically incorrect" conclusion. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:10, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Who pays to test drinking water for THC?[edit]

There is a headline going around currently about a town in Colorado with tetrahydrocannabinol, the active principle of marijuana, supposedly in the drinking water. As described in this report, the idea is ludicrous. It seems more probable that somebody collecting the water or in the lab lit up while working. But there's still a mystery here --- why would any town be paying to test for THC in drinking water? I mean, there were a lot of people in Flint, Michigan drinking water with tremendous levels of lead for a year because no one was testing, and here someone is paying to test for a substance that could not possibly be added to the water in sufficient quantity to be detectable? What budget is this under? Wnt (talk) 14:55, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

You aren't asking the more important question, which is best answered with understanding that the The dose makes the poison. I would expect non-zero quantities of THC to be in any major metropolitan area's drinking water. The question not being asked is if meaningful amounts of it are found in drinking water. One part per trillion would still mean a glass of drinking water would have over a trillion THC molecules in it; but I'm not sure that one part per trillion is enough to have any meaningful effect on the consumer. --Jayron32 15:29, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
The cited article reports a statement that THC was first detected in a vial of tap water meant to serve as a negative result in a drug test. The article about Cannabis drug testing mentions thresholds of 50-20 ng/mL used in urine and saliva tests, though detection levels as low as 0.5 ng/mL may be required for the latter. It would not be ludicrous but a genuine concern to Forensic chemistry labs (whose work is routinely funded by law enforcement) if tap water gave indications near these levels, which appears to have been the case in Hugo, OhioColorado. AllBestFaith (talk) 15:40, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

More likely the vial was contaminated. THC is not even water soluble. Reporters are not known in this day and age for getting their facts straight, they prefer to make headlines. HighInBC Need help? {{ping|HighInBC}} 15:55, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

That's not new - it's always been a problem. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:32, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
AllBestFaith Just wanted to let you know that the town of Hugo is in Colorado. I couldn't find a town of that name in Ohio though I'm sure there are at least a few people who go by that moniker in that state :-) Cheers. MarnetteD|Talk 16:54, 22 July 2016 (UTC) Thanks for the correction. AllBestFaith (talk) 21:02, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
They probably sent this to the same lab that tests parolees, and a certain number of false positives is part of the contract... Seriously though, the science here is no great mystery to me; it's the funding. If someone is actually doing some kind of GC/MS on the water they must have all sorts of peaks to explain from various biological sources, and I'd think it would cost a fortune to figure everything out; yet if they just pulled out some cannabis testing kit, then I have no idea why they'd think to do such a crazy thing. It seems like either the town is being much, much more careful than I thought anyone really was with their drinking water, or else it's doing some kind of weird political stunt, and I don't have any idea which. Wnt (talk) 17:59, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
I think this has already been answered, both in the cited article and by AllBestFaith above. It was "meant to serve as a negative result in a drug test". I interpret that to mean that they were testing a person for THC use, and concurrently with testing his/her sample, they also tested some tap water so they could compare the person's test result with that of a sample that was presumably known to not contain any THC. The test wasn't done because anyone suspected that the tap water might contain THC. CodeTalker (talk) 21:05, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Whoooooops! Looks like I gotta learn to read more carefully! Wnt (talk) 01:18, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

St George's Chapel, Windsor Castle[edit]

Now that my 7 years of bad luck are over, I'd like to bring to this forum some questions I asked @Talk:St George's Chapel, Windsor Castle#Funeral of Lady Gowrie in 2009, but got no replies.

The 2 questions are:

  • Was some special permission required for Lady Gowrie's funeral to be held in the chapel of a royal castle, and if so, why was it given?
  • Was Dame Joan Hammond the first woman ever to sing in the Chapel, and if so, why were women previously banned?

Thanks. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:31, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Maybe they wanted to see if her voice could shatter a mirror? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:55, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
I take your comments with a grain of (spilled) salt. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:59, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
This is a very good question Jack, and one which leads me to question our entry. Having looked at the official website of St George's Chapel, I can not see her listed as having received a funeral there. Now it may be that they only list the Royals who have had a funeral at the chapel, and I think that to answer your question properly you would have to contact them yourself and ask them. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:35, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
This book confirms Lady Gowrie's funeral at St George's Chapel and Joan Hammond's attendance there. I've not been able to find any answers to Jack's specific questions, though. Tevildo (talk) 12:38, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
I see that he was Deputy Constable and Lieutenant-Governor of Windsor Castle 1945-53. Maybe that came with certain privileges. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 12:48, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
I think that's the most likely answer; the chapel of the Order of St Michael and St George (Lord Gowrie was a GCMG) is in St Paul's Cathedral in London. A reference supporting the funeral at Windsor is at The Governors of New South Wales 1788-2010 edited by David Clune and Ken Turner (p. 504). As to women singing in the chapel, the English choral tradition was an entirely male-voice affair until quite recently, so it's quite plausible that Dame Joan was the first, although why permission needed to be sought is a bit of a puzzle; perhaps nobody wanted the buck to stop with them. What Did Women Sing? A Chronology concerning Female Choristers, by Laura Stanfield Prichard, Northeastern University, Massachusetts, USA discusses the role of women in western choral music, finding the Anglican Church to be particularly reluctant to include female voices in their choirs, but just because they supposed that male voices sounded better rather than any religious conviction. Alansplodge (talk) 15:32, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
It wasn't just Anglican churches that were antipathetic to women singers. A case in point is Frédéric Chopin: he died on 17 October 1849, but the funeral could not be held until 30 October, when the Catholic Church of the Madeleine in Paris, after almost 2 weeks of holding out, finally acceded to Chopin's express wishes and permitted the singing of Mozart's Requiem, which includes women as soloists and choristers. The inordinate delay meant that large numbers of people who would otherwise not have considered making the journey, did so; so many came from afar, that the church was full to capacity and many found they had travelled in vain. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:15, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

July 23[edit]

IQs and political affiliations[edit]

First, this is not intended to be a trollish post. I am genuinely interested and am asking seriously.

I wish to know if there are good studies that link IQs and political affiliations, including those with no political affiliations, in the United States.

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 04:43, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

High IQ correlates well with self-identification as a liberal, and low-IQ with self identification as a conservative[24]. It's not an enormous difference, with "very conservative"s averaging out at 95 IQ points, and "very liberal"s averaging out at 105 (so a difference between slightly below average and slightly above, rather than a difference between genius and brain damaged as some might suspect). This correlation is consistent in the UK as well. It's interesting to note that intelligence also correlates similarly well with degree of religiosity, so there could be a connection there. Also, now please also consider all of the problems with measuring IQ. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:54, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
The group of papers that cite the one I linked also provide some interesting reading material [25]. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:57, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Thank you, Someguy1221. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 09:45, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
FYI, that guy Satoshi Kanazawa is a well-known firebrand, and some of his ... let's say "odd" views are described in our article. He used to write blog posts for Psychology Today, but his work seems to have been purged from the site, and he's also written there with similarly sensational and not-that-well supported content, e.g. "Why Are Black Women Less Physically Attractive Than Other Women?" [26]. I'm not saying he's a liar or charlatan, and I do think that he has shown in that work linked by Someguy a very slightly significant and weak correlation between IQ and liberal self-identification, but I think readers should know he is an economist by training who seems completely willing and able to spin statistics into saying nearly whatever he wants, often with controversial and click-baity headlines. Even when an article is peer reviewed, caveat emptor. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:21, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Berlin blockade[edit]

Why didn't the Soviets blocked all forms of traffic between Berlin and West Germany? Maybe at a first glance they didn't realize that the airlifts would save the day for West Berliners, but day after day they must have been aware that lots of planes were supplying the city. They could have easily closed the airspace against a non-stop stream of cargo airplanes. What blocked them of doing it? --Hofhof (talk) 17:49, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

The risk of starting a new war, perhaps. Road and rail traffic is easy to block without using force. The only way to reliably block air traffic is to shoot down planes or destroy their airfields. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:01, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
But didn't they need to ask East German air traffic for an authorization to enter their air space? That's also simply a question of general safety. --Hofhof (talk) 18:06, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
See Berlin_Blockade#The_decision_for_an_airlift. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:11, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
The West Berlin Air Corridor was outside of the control of the Soviet occupation forces (it was then the Soviet occupation zone, the state of East Germany didn't exist until 1949). Air traffic between the US, French and British Zones and Berlin was controlled by the Berlin Air Safety Center, which was jointly operated by the four occupying powers. Blockading the Air Corridor may well have been seen as an act of war. The first Soviet atomic bomb wasn't tested until August 1949, putting the Soviets at a severe disadvantage should a full-scale war break out. It really was "peace through superior firepower" at that point. However, that didn't stop the Soviets from harassing the Allied flights, resulting in the 1948 Gatow air disaster. Alansplodge (talk) 19:28, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Jehovah's Witnesses and Purple Triangles[edit]

When Jehovah’s Witnesses were imprisoned in Nazi Germany’s Concentration camps they were assigned an identifying mark for identification, a Purple Triangle. (Star of David for Jews, Pink Triangles for Homosexuals, etc)

Were there any others that were assigned Purple Triangles, other than Jehovah’s Witnesses? (talk) 21:35, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

In Nazi concentration camp badge#Single triangles, it is said that the purple triangle identified "small religious groups", 99% of which were Witnesses. However, this website emphatically disagrees (apparently based on the source given at the end), saying that only a minority of the "Bibelforscher" who were identified with the purple triangle were Witnesses. This is apparently a highly politically loaded question, and as a layperson, I cannot judge. In any case, it is clear that not all inmates who were assigned this badge were Witnesses. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:58, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

July 24[edit]

Kevin B Macdonald[edit]

How much truth is there to his claims in 'The culture of critique' series? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Numerologician (talkcontribs) 02:24, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Some links: Kevin B. MacDonald, The Culture of Critique series. -- ToE 02:38, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
In response to your question, I don't know that we will be able to give you more than is in The Culture of Critique series#Criticism. -- ToE 02:40, 24 July 2016 (UTC)


July 19[edit]

Greek greeting[edit]

Hi, I think I heard a Greek greeting that sounds like BARAK-ALLAH. How is this written in Greek? What's its meaning and origin? (talk) 01:20, 19 July 2016 (UTC) I couldn't find it in Greek phrasebook. (talk) 01:21, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

It's from the Arabic Barak (given name) "blessed" and Allah. It may have an idiomatic or particularly religious meaning, and you may have heard it from a non-Arab. μηδείς (talk) 02:02, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Barakallah (Μπαράκ Αλλάχ, بارك الله). —Stephen (talk) 03:17, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Medeis, Stephen G. Brown, you both are wrong (ridiculously). The word is παρακαλώ.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 09:50, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Watch your manners, Ljuboslov. I simply said what is true, that Barak means "blessed" in Arabic, and that both words the OP reported were Arabic words. I was not in a position to tell the OP what he actually heard or judge the accuracy of his interpretation or judgement of the ethnicity of the people involved. If you know better, you can simply say so, but I expect you wouldn't tell the OP he was ridiculous for mistaking p for b, l for ll and omega for ah. μηδείς (talk) 17:25, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
@Medeis: You rather do not have to be so grumpy and learn to take criticism. To say someone is wrong is nothing about manners. Didn't you like the word "ridiculously"? But it was such. To imply that Greeks would greet in Arabic, especially with such a rare, clearly Islamic greeting (it is not something like "Salam"), is ridiculous (I think many Greeks even might be seriously offended with such implications). When I first saw the question and then the answer, my first thought was either the OP or the repliers were trolling or joking. Then I realized that the OP might be still serious, and I recognized the part "kala" quite immediately and then the whole word.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 12:05, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
April fools? InedibleHulk (talk) 10:08, July 20, 2016 (UTC)
Yes, the word that the OP heard was most likely παρακαλώ. I remember this word from my textual criticism days. It is the modern variant of παρακαλέω. The root words are παρά and καλέω and it is related to παράκλητος "paraclete". In the new testament it is usually translated as "to exhort, to call for". Modern literal meaning is "I request" but it is used in much the same way as German bitte, meaning "you're welcome" and even when answering the phone. Medeis' and Stephen's answers may have been hasty, but were not "ridiculous" at all; they were likely possibilities considering: 1) the transliteration the OP gave us and 2) words in other European languages with historical Arabic contact such as Spanish ojalá and Portuguese oxalá.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 23:02, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Another possibility is that the OP heard a phrase that included the greek word for "good" at the end, καλά. My greek consists mostly of a few phrases I learned working for a greek family in a pizza joint 25 years ago, but I remember a few phrases. --Jayron32 23:55, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
OP here. Yes, I believe what I heard was "παρακαλώ". I heard it over the phone while making a business call to Greece. Because Greek is an unfamiliar language for me (in fact I'm slightly more familiar with Arabic, hence the confusion), it was easy for me to mistake "b" with "p". (talk) 01:46, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. There's also the fact that Mandarin distinguishes aspiration as opposed to voice, and unaspirated consonants are often rendered as voiced consonants in Roman transcription. So it is quite possible that an unaspirated p would be transcribed as a b. 04:29, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Tycho Brahe[edit]

While I'm translating Tycho Brahe into other language, I'm frustrated by the following sentence:

This is one of my interpretation of the sentence in point form:

I can think of another possible way of interpretation:

Can you tell me which one is the intended meaning of the sentence? --Quest for Truth (talk) 01:28, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

One more question. Is the "predictions" here referring to fortune-telling? --Quest for Truth (talk) 01:45, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

  • My interpretation

In return for [his patrons'] support, Tycho's duties included

  1. preparing [his patrons'] astrological charts
    1. predictions for his patrons on events
      1. <such as> births
      2. <such as> weather forecasting
  2. astrological interpretations of significant astronomical events
    1. <such as> the supernova of 1572 (sometimes called Tycho's supernova)
    2. <such as> the Great Comet of 1577.

As to your question, re: predictions, they would (ostensibly) be based on the 'prepared astrological charts'. --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:8558:6C31:688B:8595 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:23, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

I think the basic question is this: "Tycho's duties included preparing (astrological charts and predictions), weather forecasting, and astrological interpretations." And yes, "predictions" refers to a kind of fortune-telling (预测未来). —Stephen (talk) 03:35, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
'In a nutshell', more like "Tycho's duties included (various) predictions based astrological charts that he prepared for his patrons." --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:8558:6C31:688B:8595 (talk) 04:02, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

"predictions ... of weather forecasting" would either be a tautology or a fairly silly practice (I predict that tonight's 10 o'clock news will be followed by the weather forecast) so I think your first answer is QED --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:08, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

See also Astrology and astronomy. Alansplodge (talk) 15:25, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
The first interpretation is quite natural. Astronomy/astrology (not distinct at that time) was used to predict the life of newborn childs and to predict the weather. The other tasks, i.e. the supernovae or comets were believed to be unpredictable at the time. Note that Kepler (one generation after Tycho Brahe) defended the astronomical/astrological weather predictions in his book "Warnung an die Gegner der Astrologie" and that Halley (three generations or so after Tycho Brahe) was the first to discover the predictability of one (periodical) comet. Referring to your second question: in central Europe at that time there would be a great difference between reputable predictions by an imperial astronomer using elaborate mathematical methods like astrological charts and fortune-telling by an old Gypsy woman using the means available to her. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 15:48, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks everyone! After reading through the replies from you all, I have more confidence that the first interpretation is the most logical one, even though purely grammatically it is open to multiple interpretations. Actually I'm editing on the Chinese Wikipedia at the moment, and this sentence really caught me because it is rather unnatural to write a sentence in such a complicated structure in the Chinese language. I really need more time to think about the most appropriate way to express the identical meaning clearly yet smoothly in Chinese. --Quest for Truth (talk) 16:45, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

"Homicide" in BrEng[edit]

According to our article, homicide, it's a very useful word that covers killing another human in so many different scenarios (murder, manslaughter, accident etc).

But in BrEng, I'm fairly sure it only means a death caused by a criminal act. This dicdef seems to support my argument, as does This ref. This ref suggests than even in USEng it means something illegal has happened.

Can anyone clarify? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:06, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

posting by banned user removed. – Fut.Perf. 21:35, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
  • I believe we have a difference between the common usage, where it seems to mean murder only, in both US and UK English, and the technical usages. In scientific usage, it seems to have the broadest meaning, of any killing of one human by another (including in war, executions, by accident, euthanasia, etc.), while legal usage seems to vary, but excludes war and legal executions, and may or may not exclude accidents or euthanasia. Generally speaking, if it's legal, it's not called homicide, for legal purposes. StuRat (talk) 13:11, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Stu, what you say about common usage may be true, but the last bit about legal usage is false. Legal killings are most definitely legally homicide. There is no ambiguity about that at all. --Trovatore (talk) 17:29, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
I took the last line out, but I still believe the part claiming that the legal definition of homicide excludes war and legal executions is correct. StuRat (talk) 19:10, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
No, that is not correct. --Trovatore (talk) 19:17, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
British usage can be canfusing. While there is indeed a concept of homicide as unlawful killing, there is also the concept of justifiable homicide, where there is no crime - this may relate to cases of self defence, or to the use of reasoable force by police which results in a death. The etymology of the word clearly just means the killing of a human being - and there is an extent to which the investigation of any death may be described as a homicide investigation whether or not it leads to a conclusion that the cause of death was some unlawful act. Wymspen (talk) 16:56, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
A "homicide investigation", at least in the early stages, may just be an investigation to determine whether or not a homicide has occurred. (In some cases, it's not even clear if a death occurred, say if a person has gone missing and there is some of their blood in their car, but not enough to definitely say they are dead, and no body is ever found). Also beware of the etymological fallacy. StuRat (talk) 19:14, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Ah, now I maybe have some intuition where you're coming from. Don't confuse police usage with legal usage. Police are not lawyers, and they have their own technical language, which may or may not correspond to the language of the law. --Trovatore (talk) 19:21, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, the police usage is more likely to be the common one. StuRat (talk) 21:16, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
According to Jonathan Law, A Dictionary of Law, Oxford University Press (8th ed. 2015), which is a British source, "homicide" is defined as "The killing of one human being by another. In English law there is no crime called homicide: what the law does is single out certain homicides that are considered to be unlawful or unjustifiable or inexcusable and make a crime of these. . . . Lawful homicide (sometimes termed justifiable homicide) occurs when somebody uses reasonable force in preventing a crime or arresting an offender, in self-defence or defence of others, or (possibly) in defence of his property, and causes death as a result." This source, which is going to be more authoritative than a general purpose dictionary, seems to make it pretty clear that "homicide" is not limited to criminal deaths in British legal usage. John M Baker (talk) 19:23, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Good source. Now we need a similar example for US law. I'd also like to see an example in British law where a legal execution (back when they had the death penalty), was referred to as a homicide by legal authorities, and where killing of an enemy soldier during normal combat (that is, not the killing of prisoners, those waving a white flag, etc.) was called a homicide by legal authorities. It occurs to me that, since such cases never make it to the courts, there may not be a legal term for them, any more than there is a term for the killing of an intelligent extra-terrestrial. StuRat (talk) 21:19, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
The term "homicide" in common usage in America implies "illegal homicide". Lawful taking of life is typically described in more specific terms, such as self-defense, execution, warfare, etc. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:11, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Does it? I'm having trouble figuring out a context where you would want an imprecise word for "unlawful homicide" where you wouldn't just say "murder". Granted, it's imprecise, in both directions (some unlawful killings are not murder, and you can be legally guilty of felony murder without killing anyone at all). But if you want a precise term, you just say "unlawful homicide". I'm skeptical of this claim. --Trovatore (talk) 07:05, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Manslaughter is unlawful homicide but is not necessarily called murder. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:30, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, I said that, more or less. I don't buy that "common usage" needs or has a term for "murder or manslaughter". If you use the word "homicide", it sounds like you're trying to be precise, and if you're going to do that, then you might as well be actually precise and say "unlawful homicide". I don't think your statement about "common usage" is really accurate, though it's more defensible than saying the same thing about legal usage. --Trovatore (talk) 17:59, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
The leading American law dictionary is Black's Law Dictionary (10th ed. 2014). For "homicide" it features this quotation from Glanville Williams, Textbook of Criminal Law 204 (1978): "The legal term for killing a man, whether lawfully or unlawfully, is ‘homicide.’ There is no crime of ‘homicide.’ Unlawful homicide at common law comprises the two crimes of murder and manslaughter. Other forms of unlawful homicide have been created by statute: certain new forms of manslaughter (homicide with diminished responsibility, and suicide pacts), infanticide, and causing death by dangerous driving."
Black's uses the definition "criminal homicide" for homicides that are unlawful. It also provides definitions of "justifiable homicide": "1. The killing of another in self-defense when faced with the danger of death or serious bodily injury. — Also termed excusable homicide. See self-defense (1). 2. A killing mandated or permitted by the law, such as execution for a capital crime or killing to prevent a crime or a criminal's escape." John M Baker (talk) 15:27, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
For a legal dictionary, that "killing a man" part is inexcusably inaccurate. What about women, children, the unborn embryo/fetus ? And the "killing" part needs clarification, too. Is pulling the plug on a brain-dead patient a "killing", and hence homicide ? StuRat (talk) 16:14, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Dictionaries do not necessarily dictate common usage. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:54, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

posting by banned user removed. – Fut.Perf. 21:35, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Good, but we still haven't found any law dictionaries that specifically deal with legal executions and soldiers killing the enemy during war. StuRat (talk) 04:25, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Actually, Black's Law Dictionary, quoted above, addresses legal executions. Here's a court case that also addresses killings during war: "Homicide may be lawful or unlawful; it is lawful when done in lawful war upon an enemy in battle; it is lawful when done by an officer in the execution of justice upon a criminal, pursuant to a proper warrant." Commonwealth v. Webster, 59 Mass. 295, 303 (1850). John M Baker (talk) 16:56, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

July 20[edit]

Do we use italics or not, when a foreign language title also includes parenthetically an English translation?[edit]

Look at Musik im Bauch. In the very opening words, it says Musik im Bauch (Music in the Belly). Why is the parenthetical component not italicized? What's the reason for such a rule? What's the rationale? I edited the article so that the phrase/title "Music in the Belly" was italicized. And I was told that the Wikipedia rule is that it not be italicized. The German title should be italicized; but the English translation title, not. Huh? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:03, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

That's a good question. Check out Symphony No. 3 (Beethoven), in which both the German title and its English translation are italicized. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:39, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
What German title? Do you mean "Sinfonia eroica"? That's Italian. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 07:07, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Good point. Did it even have a German title? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:30, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Not apart from de:3. Sinfonie (Beethoven). -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:03, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Titles#Translations.Wavelength (talk) 01:49, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
[Please see Microcontent: How to Write Headlines, Page Titles, and Subject LinesWavelength (talk) 01:52, 20 July 2016 (UTC)]
(1) So is the English translation italics or not italics? (2) What was the relevance of the second link (Microcontent: How to Write Headlines, Page Titles, and Subject Lines)? I didn't understand that. Did I miss something? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:18, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
It depends on whether the English translation is also used as a title. It's easier with books, movies and other stuff that use words and have posters/covers/whatever. Music's a universal language, but looking at published sheet music or album track listings might find your answer. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:03, July 20, 2016 (UTC)
Looks like part of the sheet music's title to me. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:09, July 20, 2016 (UTC)
(1) As the examples show, if a work is well known by an English title, then the English title has normal formatting for titles (italics and applicable capitals); otherwise, the English translation is without special formatting (no italics) and in sentence case. (2) Your heading ("Do we use italics or not, when a foreign language title also includes parenthetically an English translation?") is unnecessarily long. A shorter heading ("Title translations in italics") is better.
Wavelength (talk) 05:55, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
As to your second point -- Your heading ("Do we use italics or not, when a foreign language title also includes parenthetically an English translation?") is unnecessarily long. A shorter heading ("Title translations in italics") is better. -- nah. There was some ridiculous brouhaha about this topic over at another Help Desk. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:17, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
  • The purpose of the let the reader know the phrase is foreign, even if it appears possibly English. No vote means "Don't vote" in Spanish, and something else in English. In Musik im Bauch (Music in the Belly), the italicized part is a mere translation, obviously English, and not part of the original author's title. In Symphony No. 3 (Beethoven), Beethoven's name is being treated as part of the entire title, it is not a translation, although there are other ways of handling that, such as Beethoven's Symphony No. 3, "Eroica" μηδείς (talk) 05:47, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
I say the unitalicized bit is obviously English, and Stanford says the title is Musik im Bauch = Music in the belly = Musique dans le ventre : für 6 Schlagzeuger und Spieluhren : 1975, Werk Nr. 41. Wikipedia's article title is just the uniform title, which also covers Tierkreis [sound recording] : für Spieluhren ; Musik im Bauch. Our article is more about the live music than the recording, so if I ran this zoo, I'd italicize the English/French parenthetical in English/French Wikipedia, but not Norwegian Wikipedia. (Norwegian Wikipedia doesn't even mention it, anyway, and French Wikipedia suggests ours instead.) InedibleHulk (talk) 09:40, July 20, 2016 (UTC)
In the Musik im Bauch = Music in the belly = Musique dans le ventre : für 6 Schlagzeuger und Spieluhren : 1975, Werk Nr. 41 case, if you were to leave only the English unitalicized, it would have the effect of implying some weird emphasis on the English name. Italics are used for various purposes, and in that example the emphatic lack of italics would be running at the cross purpose of using italics for titles. μηδείς (talk) 17:14, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Now I'm confused, too. All good, though. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:04, July 20, 2016 (UTC)
Italics are used to show emphasis: "I don't care what your dog does to your daughter, but if he bites my daughter, I'll have the sheriff put him down." Or to indicate a phrase is not in English no vote in Spanish literally means "Don't (you singular) vote", which is not what it means in English. Or it can be used to indicate the title of certain works, including the names of novels: Catch 22 vs "a catch 22" situation. Given its multipurpose nature, sometimes italicizing can be confusing, and when we have a list of titles, including the English translation, as well as those in other foreign languages, we have to realize that not italicizing the English to the exclusion of the other languages in the title, just because it's English and doesn't normally need to be emphasized would actually imply emphasis, as opposed to nativeness. This is why publishers hire editors. For the first example in most contexts I'd've given Musik im Bauch ("Music in the Belly"). μηδείς (talk) 05:00, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
There's a common convention in editing and typesetting that when a passage, which would normally be in roman with a section of italics for distinction or emphasis, is itself rendered overall into italic for whatever reason, the italic section is then rendered into roman in order to retain its distinctiveness.
In this instance I would take the "normal" form of this title to be the German one, which would make it
Musik im Bauch (Music in the Belly). Since we are translating this into English and conventionally use italics for foreign text, this means the English has to change from italic to roman: i.e.
Musik im Bauch (Music in the Belly).
However, if the House style was to render all titles in italic, this would require a second reversal, giving
Musik im Bauch (Music in the Belly) once more. Such judgements always have to be taken in the context of the House style of the publication (here Wikipedia), because different and incompatible House styles are all correct within themselves, but should not be mixed as this leads to inconsistency and confusion (conscious or unconscious) on the part of the readers.
Many larger publishers issue House style guides for internal use, while smaller ones often decide to follow those of the Oxford University Press (which are more extensive than most) because OUP publishes and sells them, as well as other authoritative Writing, Editing and Grammar guides which are of course all conveniently compatible. {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 16:36, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:23, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

July 21[edit]


Does Maklergalgen (using italics for emphasis, a la Spanish no vote) have a "specific" meaning in German, a meaning that would be retained when discussing the subject in another language? It's apparently a real estate sign, but I'm not sure if it's just an ordinary term for real estate signs, or if it's a special, well-defined class of items. This arises from Commons:Category:Maklergalgen, a newly created category of nothing but real estate signs; Commons policy says that categories should be named in English, but an exception is of course made for proper names, biological taxa and names for which the non-English name is most commonly used in the English language (or there is no evidence of usage of an English-language version). It looks like someone was ignorant and created this category, but I don't want to delete it as a duplicate if Maklergalgen is normally used for this concept in English-language sources. Nyttend (talk) 12:55, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

You could make a new sub - category "Hanging signs" in category "Real estate signs". (talk) 14:14, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Oh, that German wit! According to Google Translate, Maklergalgen literally means "agents gallows". But it appears that its real meaning is real estate signs, which often look like gallows. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:37, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
I (native speaker) had not known this word until I read it above. My usual German dictionaries do not list it. So it is a neologism coined after, say, 2005, and I had to look up the picture gallery to see what is meant. Please rename the category to "hanging signs" or whatever, which will be easier to understand. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 19:08, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Oh my goodness! That same user also created recently Commons:Category:Snackwelle and I have to admit for the second time that I as a native German speaker newer saw that German word and had no idea what it meant until I saw the picture gallery (a snack wave). Left at your discretion. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 19:29, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Same here – both words seem utterly bogus to me. Fut.Perf. 19:42, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Anyone here who speaks German natively, before concluding it's bogus, google "Maklergalgen" and see if the German-language references to it seem real or not. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:54, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
I probably spoke too rashly. Judging by the google hits, both "Maklergalgen" and "Snackwelle" seem to be examples of those kinds of everyday objects that everybody is familiar with somehow but few people ever actively think about enough to need a word for, except for people in the specialist trade that produces them. Both seem to actually be called that in the industries involved. Fut.Perf. 21:57, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
posting by banned user removed. – Fut.Perf. 21:35, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Well no, there are well-formed words that are nevertheless on the bogus side in terms of lexicality, such as Totenhebel or Flunderschrei (though one can imagine contrived situations where both might be applied), but Fut.Perf is correct: Snackwelle and Maklergalgen do exist in the language of their industries, and I was reminded of the notorious Warentrenner (English: checkout divider), an everyday item which many people still wouldn't know what to call (Max Goldt suggested "Warenabtrennhölzchen", see Zwiebelfisch). ---Sluzzelin talk 09:21, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
posting by banned user removed. – Fut.Perf. 21:35, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
No, the Umlaut is not just there for fun (it’s basically a superscript e), so if you don’t have the correct letter on your keyboard, you should spell that word toeten. For Toten- see this Wiktionary entry. My guess is that Sluzzelin made those two examples up on the spot to demonstrate a point: namely that it is possible, in German, to make up "new" words by combining existing ones, but not all of them make much sense, and even if they do, they’re not necessarily in common use. This is why, while Snackwelle is theoretically a valid German word, most people (like me) might not understand right away what it’s supposed to mean.
Btw, @Sluzzelin: I just love Kassentoblerone ;o) Rgds  hugarheimur 18:09, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Yep, first bogus compounds I could come up with returning zero google hits ... and though I live in the land of Toblerone and buy groceries several times a week, and though it sounds natural enough, I hadn't been familiar at all with Kassentoblerone. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:24, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
I only ever knew one guy who actually used the term. He’s from Freiburg (the German one). No idea where he picked it up, though. Greetings from the Land of the (Original) Wibele hugarheimur 19:39, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Aber, was passiert mit den Waldschluchtsbeeren? μηδείς (talk) 22:03, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Sie verlieren ihren Fugenlaut und schluchzen dennoch weiter. ---Sluzzelin talk 03:26, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Ach! Ich wusste dass wir das Wort diskutiert hatten. Entschuldige mir fuers Ergebnis vergessen haben. Es bleibt jedoch die Frage des Schiksal der Waldschluchtbeeren. Wir haben auch das Wort <<Halbschwul>> "Bisexueller" als Beispiel dieses Phaenomen. μηδείς (talk) 03:43, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Sie werden von den Waldschluchtbären gefressen :o) Cheers  hugarheimur 07:16, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Off on a bit of a tangent, but not too much of a wild potato chase - a recent addition to my vocabulary. Last weekend bought a new bicycle tyre made by a German company that claimed to be "unplattbar". The tyre, not the company, that is. In the small print it explains that it's not possible to guarantee that it will never get a flat, but it will protect "gegen die typisch Pannenteufel'. The English version says that it offers protection "against typical tyre wreckers such as glass, flints or metal shards". I know what I will be calling these devils in future. --Shirt58 (talk) 05:42, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

uncertain house arrest[edit]

I am not clear about the meaning of "uncertain house arrest" in the following context. Would you clarify it for me? "Another is the odyssey of the airmen whose plane landed safely in Vladivostok (against Doolittle's orders). The Russians were supposedly U.S. allies. But months of black bread, vodka, boredom and uncertain house arrest lay ahead for the Americans." ( "'Target Tokyo' brings a well-known WWII story back to life" by Tony Perry ) Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:36, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

See house arrest. It means that you are restricted by the authorities from leaving your own domicile. --Jayron32 14:41, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Uncertain as to whether they actually were under house arrest? Uncertain as to how long it would go on for? They were foreign nationals in a high security area during a time of war - so Soviet authorities would have been reluctant to give them any liberty, even though they were technically allies. Unfortunately, it is uncertain what the writer actually meant by that phrase. Wymspen (talk) 15:32, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
In the context, I would take it to mean that sometimes they were more strictly confined, and sometimes less so, in an unpredictable fashion. {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 16:41, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
I would not interpret it that way. "Uncertain" seems an odd word to use for that meaning, rather than "intermittent" or something along those lines. I would guess that it means that the future duration of their house arrest was unknown to them, but I agree that the meaning is not at all clear from the context. CodeTalker (talk) 20:10, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
I would take it as a stylized way of saying actual house arrest, but with no certainty that they would be released or even executed. Like an "uncertain prognosis". The prognosis itself is not uncertain, but the patient and his caregivers are. μηδείς (talk) 23:42, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Per Medeis, uncertain is being used as a synonym for indefinite here: no understanding of the reasons for, or especially the duration of, or the conditions of release from, said house arrest. --Jayron32 01:04, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
I was actually going to use the word "indefinite". And it should be noted that "months of black bread, vodka, [&] boredom" describes most of the year for most Russians throughout the last millennium. μηδείς (talk) 01:21, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
I would have interpreted as "the Americans were in for certain house arrest" (in the same way that "certain" is used as in "hiding out meant certain trouble" or "the test set me up for certain anxiety"), but with the meaning reversed. (talk) 01:53, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
I think it means "under house arrest in a state of uncertainty", i.e. a situation where the airmen were not sure whether and when they were going to be released or tried or sent somewhere else. It describes their mental state rather than the attributes of the arrest as such. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:57, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, Palace Guard, that was my point. The uncertainty was that of the detainees themselves. μηδείς (talk) 21:57, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

July 22[edit]

the damage was much greater than it was[edit]

What does "the damage was much greater than it was" mean here? Thank you. "Both sides made exaggerated claims: The Americans said the damage was much greater than it was and that none of the planes had been lost (not true). The Japanese said the Americans had targeted civilians (not true, but there were civilian casualties) and that several planes had been shot down (not true)." (from " 'Target Tokyo' brings a well-known WWII story back to life" by Tony Perry) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 09:04, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Here the phrase "much greater than" means "much more extensive than". So the phrase can be paraphrased to mean

The Americans said the damage was much more extensive than it (actually) was

It may help the OP to note that "the Americans said" is part of the comparison - i.e. "what the Americans said the damage was" > "[the damage] [actually] was". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:43, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
In other words, the Americans exaggerated the amount of damage, while the Japanese falsely claimed that the Americans went after civilians. This would have been simpler had the author included an additional "that", i.e. "The Americans said that the damage..." Nyttend (talk) 13:37, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
"I never said half the things I said." -- Yogi Berra.
Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:24, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
This look like a case of sloppy writing. The author leaves to the reader to guess the whole meaning of the sentence. I suppose he meant "the damage was much greater than it was [claimed]". Hofhof (talk) 13:18, 23 July 2016 (UTC)


What does Alina mean. Some IPs are inserting un-sourced meanings. --Rainbow Archer (talk) 16:31, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

The greek word for light is either φως (phos, c.f. "photo") meaning "the bright stuff that lets you see" or ελαφρός (elaphros, c.f. "elevate") meaning "not heavy". I suppose the second definition may sound similar to Alina, but as far as I can find, there are no greek words meaning "light" terribly close to the name Alina, and unless we have a high quality etymology, we shouldn't make claims to origins based on tenuous sound similarities. --Jayron32 19:49, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

July 23[edit]


Does the French suffix –age, as in language and marriage and outrage, have a Latin form, or is it of later coinage? —Tamfang (talk) 00:35, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

See wikt:-age#Etymology_3 (and wikt:langage and wikt:mariage for spelling).
Wavelength (talk) 00:45, 23 July 2016 (UTC) and 00:50, 23 July 2016 (UTC) and 01:00, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Why shouldn't I use English words to illustrate a French morpheme? —Tamfang (talk) 05:45, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

-aticus, (-aticum/-atica) as in French fromage "cheese" < Latin, formaticum "formed" μηδείς (talk) 03:26, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Frottage is a good word. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 09:30, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. —Tamfang (talk) 05:45, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Advance Australia Fair[edit]

How should the title of the Australian national anthem, "Advance Australia Fair", be parsed?

  1. Is "fair" a post-modifier, or is it a noun?
  2. Is the title as a whole supposed to be understood as:
  • Advance[,] Australia fair
  • Advance(transitive verb) (Australia fair)(object)
  • [May] (Australia fair) advance
or should it be understood some other way? -- (talk) 16:19, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
1. It's an adjective, not a noun.
2. In the antepenultimate line of each verse, at least ("In history's page, let every stage / Advance Australia Fair", "With courage let us all combine / To Advance Australia Fair"), it seems to be transitive verb + object.
Deor (talk) 19:11, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Is appearance of white hair in early age belongs to psychological troubles?[edit]

[Question moved to Science Desk. Tevildo (talk) 23:05, 23 July 2016 (UTC)]

July 24[edit]


July 18[edit]

Movie question[edit]

Which movie had one of the characters say the following line: "A lead zeppelin is your stairway to Heaven"? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:258A:F94:7EFA:6739 (talk) 02:04, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Maybe you mean the TV series The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr., as documented here.
Might be! Thanks! 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:7D92:4B92:BDBC:ACFB (talk) 08:16, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Tour de France potato chase[edit]

I'm just watching the Tour de France and the commentator used a French term for a chasing group that was chasing a breakaway from the pelaton but did not succeed in catching it and then got stuck between the breakaway and the pelaton. The commentator gave the phrase in English as potato chase. I did not quite catch the French phrase but I am sure it was not chasse de pomme de terre, or at least did not contain pomme de la terre, my understanding of French for potato. Anyone know what the French phrase is? SpinningSpark 14:01, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

According to this,[27] it's "chasse patate", which is a French idiom that would be better translated as "wild goose chase". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:28, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
Just as a side note, the difference between "patate" and "pomme de terre" is somewhat dialectical. In some dialects (especially lower-class dialects of Quebec French), patate is commonly used for any potatoes while "pomme de terre" is marked as somewhat snooty; in other dialects, especially Standard French (i.e. European or "International" French), "pomme de terre" is reserved for starchy potatoes such as Russet potato or creamer potato, while the word "patate" is used mainly for sweet potato varieties. This brief forum post (in English) and this longer explanation (in French) explains the peculiarities and history of the two terms. --Jayron32 16:16, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm going to start using "potato chase" instead of "wild goose chase" thanks to this. clpo13(talk) 16:42, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
Apart from its literal meaning "potato", patate can also mean "fool". The term comes from six-day racing. Dutch wikipedia has an article on it: nl:chasse patate (six-day racing is popular in Flanders). In short: a chasse patate is in six-day racing a low-speed episode in the race where the team that's far behind can easily chase around the track to gain extra laps, without becoming a threat to the leaders in the race. These low-speed episodes often came after a (potato) meal, as people race less fast with a full stomach. The meaning of "pointless chase" later transferred from track cycling to road cycling. PiusImpavidus (talk) 17:33, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Who writes the episode descriptions for TV shows?[edit]

Re: Episode descriptions for TV shows. Does anyone know where they come from? I mean, for example, the episode descriptions that you read in a "TV Guide" type of magazine; or that you see on TV when you scroll through the TV version of the "TV Guide" channel; or even on the DVD packages. In general, who is responsible for drafting these episode descriptions? Are they "official", as in, are they from the producers? Or do some other third-party people take care of that, like, for example, at the syndicated TV stations? Is the task "contracted out" in the same way that, for example, closed-captioning or sub-titles are? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:38, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

For DVDs/BluRay you will often see a separate set of credits for production of that version, along with the normal credits for the original version. StuRat (talk) 20:20, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
You might want to also ask about the descriptions on broadcast TV (when you hit the Info button, for example) or on cable/satellite. I've noticed they vary greatly in length and quality. Sometimes they are absent or only contain a general description of the series rather than the episode. At other times, it looks like somebody only watched the first minute and wrote the description based on that. StuRat (talk) 20:25, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
In the US, the program title and description is called an Electronic program guide. It is part of the digital information broadcast by local stations. The actual text is generally composed by the program syndicator or network and copied by someone at the station into its EPG electronically. --Thomprod (talk) 15:09, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. I don't understand. If the show is (for example) a CBS show, then someone at CBS writes all these episode descriptions? Why are there several different versions "out there"? Shouldn't they all be uniform if they are all generated from the same one place (for example, the CBS staff member)? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:48, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
If you check your cable TV listings, you may find they are provided by a service, such as Tribune Media Services. They have descriptions of movies and TV shows in their database, and there's no guarantee that it comes directly from a network such as CBS, although it might be based on it. As for the skimpy descriptions, typically this kind of information is just a teaser - it's not going to give away the ending. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:21, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 14:58, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

July 19[edit]

Laverne Cox[edit]

When is the release date of Laverne Cox upcoming tv/movie: Doubt_(TV_series) and Freak_Show_(film)? (talk) 02:47, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

"Latest" from the CBS site CBS 2016-2017 Fall Premiere Dates Are Here!Doubt : "Coming Later This Season" —There were development complications that presumably caused undetermined delays. (see:Variety article) --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:8558:6C31:688B:8595 (talk) 04:29, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

July 20[edit]

Old timer cartoons[edit]

I am searching for a bunch of cartoons of this ilk. The first was about three brothers who tried to save a girl from a villain who tried to kidnap her in ridiculous ways. The second was about a dog who fell in love with a dog-shaped lighting conductor. (talk) 19:52, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

That youtube link doesn't work in America, but I can tell you about the cartoons. Both of them date to 1942. The first is called The Dover Boys. It's an inspired and uniquely-designed parody of turn-of-the-century college kids' adventure stories. The second is called Ding Dog Daddy, where the dog thinks the iron dog lawn ornament is alive. The iron dog is picked up as scrap metal, and the real dog follows it through a plant where it is used in the making of a bomb. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:14, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
I'll bet your mom thought watching cartoons was a waste of time -- who knew that knowledge would be valuable decades later? --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:60BC:894:7787:F31 (talk) 22:29, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Quite the contrary. Many of the cartoons from that era were written with adult audiences in mind, and are educational, as a window into what things were like during the War. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:30, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Well done BB. While on the subject, at about 4:20 into Ding Dog Daddy, the mutt (identified as Willoughby by our article) inadvertently kisses the bulldog who responds with muttered curses and threats which start with "Why you ..." and ends with "I'll break every bone in your body!" Are you able to make out anything in between? I think I hear an "overgrown" in there, but I'm not sure. -- ToE 14:36, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
It's mostly stammering; I hear one more distinct word in there, immediately before "overgrown", but it's not distinct enough for me to say what it is. —Tamfang (talk) 08:15, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

July 22[edit]

Identify the TVseries of two twin heiress sisters from the 1970s/80s[edit]

I wonder if this is the right place to ask my question. I am trying to identify an old TV-series from my childhood, and I seem to remember that I successfully asked a similar question at Wikipedia once before. The plot of the TV-series focus on the life of a young heiress who is the identical twin of a mentally disturbed sister: the healthy sister lives an adventurous life, while her mentally disturbed twin is placed in a mental hospital, playing with dolls as an adult. I remember the healthy sister being raped by a male relative of the same age, who later shot himself in a meadow. The TV:series would be British, set in England, and made during the 1970s (perhaps early 1980s). I don't remember the plot that well. It was my mother who actually watched, so it was not any kind of series for children at all, rather a drama series popular among adult women, something in the style of a glamorous romance novel I think - those kind of series that became so common in the 1980s, but this would have been an early series of that kind, because as far as I remember, the actors were dressed in the style of the 1970s or perhaps early 80s. If this is the wrong place to put my question, than I would be grateful to know the right place. Perhaps some Tv:series-buff can recognize this?--Aciram (talk) 01:27, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

is there an "800" number (or phone # at all) to contact Wikipedia?[edit]

I would like to know if you have an "800" # (or contact phone # at all) to contact wikipedia? I am not very good at using a computer and would like to report that the article on the song "Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head" is incorrect. It has listed that the cover version done by Bobbie Gentry reached #40 in the UK, when that is absolutely INCORRECT. Bobbie Gentry's cover version reached #1 in the UK. I also would like to ask a few other questions that would be quite lengthy for me to type out, which is why i wanted to know if there was an 800 customer service number. Please advise, Thank you. Dean — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 02:12, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't believe there is a phone number for requesting edits to Wikipedia content. Regarding Bobbie Gentry's version of "Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head", in addition to the cited source, here is a second source that confirms the ranking of #40 on the UK chart: "Song title 804 - Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head". UK 40 - Feb 1970 (4 weeks) 
For future reference, help for using or editing Wikipedia is better handled at Wikipedia: Help desk, or try Wikipedia: Teahouse, which is tailored to new users. --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:F501:1A09:1431:2F25 (talk) 05:00, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Abbey Road[edit]

The article on Abbey Road states that four million were sold in the first two months, but it doesn't appear in the List of best-selling albums in the United Kingdom. Are different criteria being used to denote sales, or is this an oversight? Widneymanor (talk) 09:28, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Compare Earth to United Kingdom and see if the distinction helps you solve your conundrum. --Jayron32 11:24, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
The paragraph following the mention of four million goes on to state "Reaction overseas was similar", which implies that the four million refers to UK sales. (It later gives a figure of over seven million sales in the USA alone, which would make the Earth figure greater). ----
Some other references which confirm that the 4M figure was world-wide:
"Worldwide, it [Abbey Road] sold four million copies in its first six weeks on sale, and a further million by the end of 1969 - making it the best-selling long-player of the year". [28]
"After just six weeks it had sold 4,000,000, and by the end of the year, 5,000,000 worldwide". [29]
Alansplodge (talk) 13:02, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks Widneymanor (talk) 08:18, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

July 24[edit]

Non-Bengali singers singing Bengali songs[edit]

Besides Mohammed Rafi, Ghulam Ali, Pankaj Udhas, Jagjit Singh, Mehdi Hasan, Lata Mangeshkar, Asha Bhosle, Anup Jalota and Talat Mahmood, what other non-Bengali singers were known for singing songs in Bengali regardless they were Pakistani and Indian? I am trying to listen how they sound like when they are singing songs in Bengali. Please and thanks. Donmust90 (talk) 02:30, 24 July 2016 (UTC)Donmust90Donmust90 (talk) 02:30, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

What kind of Dance Jump is this?[edit] Such an amazing display of flexibility and athleticism! --Arima (talk) 06:55, 24 July 2016 (UTC)


July 19[edit]

What purpose does the reference desk serve?[edit]

What is the intended purpose of the Wikipedia reference desk? Does the reference desk serve to help answer topical questions where the answers may not be very easily located? Or does it serve to help direct people to where they may find that information? Or both? The reason I ask is because I tend to see questions that are outside the scope of the above two, and yet they are usually responded to anyway, mostly politely, sometimes facetiously. (talk) 14:40, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

See reference desk. (In general, this sort of discussion belongs on the talk page.) Rmhermen (talk) 15:08, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
  • It's all of the above and more. Although there are guidelines, they are generally loosely applied, so anything goes basically. In addition, it's also the personal playground of several permanent trolls, but that's a whole other problem altogether. Fgf10 (talk) 15:12, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
    • Indeed, I had considered asking the question on the talk page, but I believed that my question falls under the scope of that which a reference desk would answer. (talk) 15:38, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

The intended purpose is both. It is supposed to be a Wikipedia version of a library's reference desk (for example, see: Reference desk). Also, WP editors who either need to verify an articles information with sources, or find information to expand an article can come here for assistance. What it actually is is open to debate, which your question serves to initiate.

For more information about Wikipedia reference desk, see:

Face-wink.svg--2606:A000:4C0C:E200:ACF5:3AA9:C5D2:ED6 (talk) 15:28, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Hello (seeking statistics on violence against black men in Alabama)[edit]

July 20[edit]

Sony CMT-HPX7 disc player troubleshoot[edit]

Is there a website that deals with problems of Sony CMT-HPX7 especially with the disc player part? My one reads and skips and reads another one and skips that one. I am fed up with this jukebox. Please and thanks. Donmust90 (talk) 01:41, 20 July 2016 (UTC)Donmust90Donmust90 (talk) 01:41, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

We do not offer technical advice. If the device is still within warranty, you may want to contact Sony directly. Otherwise, the disc player may be nearing the end of its operating life.--WaltCip (talk) 13:24, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Something to try is a CD cleaner. You put some alcohol solution on it and it cleans the device. You can probably buy one at a record store. Certainly no guarantee that it will fix the problem, but it's a cheap solution if it works. StuRat (talk) 14:12, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
A solution in more ways than one. Two, to be precise. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 00:48, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Salut ! StuRat (talk) 04:17, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Na zdorovye! -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 08:13, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Indian 4chan and reddit users being called "POO"[edit]

When identifiable Indian users (shown by their geolocation flag) post on 4chan or reddit, other users often follow up their posts with "POO" in all capitals. Multiple different users from all different counties do this and it is only ever targeted at Indians. What does it mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:58, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

It may refer to sanitation issues in India. See e.g. here [31] or here [32] for descriptions of how 4chan mocks India/ Indians with respect to fecal matter.
For information on sanitation in India, see e.g. Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_India.
(P.S. 4chan is widely known for being full of racists, bigots, misogynists as well as other sorts of generally ignorant and mean-spirited misanthropes. So do your self a favor and don't hang out there ;) SemanticMantis (talk) 16:49, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, D E S I G N A T E D (for "designated shitting streets") is another common phrase to see. clpo13(talk) 16:51, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Agree. 4chan is a bigoted Internet hellhole. Gamergate has made it worse by validating misogyny. --WaltCip (talk) 17:20, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

How many people are known to have been hit by a ballpark's balls while outside of it?[edit]

Outside the exterior walls of any kind of ballpark except for (un)official ball catching areas like McCovey Cove. If you manage to get hit while trying to catch it that's not surprising.

What about cricket stadiums, golf courses and track and field tracks? (I don't think a field implement has gone further than "near the runners") Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:28, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm almost positive there is no complete record of everyone it by a sporting implement from the entire history of sport. Even just taking baseball, there are on any given day in the U.S. literally over a hundred professional baseball games. No one is cataloging every ball that hit someone outside the stadium over the course of 150 years of professional baseball. Major league stadiums, being larger, are less likely to have balls leave the stadium entirely, but even there it does happen. here is a pretty good article about famous instances of that happening in the Majors. The most recent such occurrence is when Nelson Cruz did so about a month ago: [33]. In smaller minor league baseball parks, many of which have no outfield bleachers, it happens much more frequently. Whether any such balls have ever struck a person is hard to answer, but I'd find it odd in all of the history of millions of games, it has never happened.--Jayron32 00:15, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
I concur that there's no way to know. If something really bad happened, like someone being killed, it would be a news item for a while, and it might be in public death records, so could be counted, with a lot of research. But someone merely being hit (or their vehicle being hit) probably would not get covered in the media. When major league parks were the size of today's high level minor league parks, there were lots of baseballs hit out of the park, fair and foul. Babe Ruth hit one in Detroit that went across the intersection of Cherry and Trumbull, about 575 feet on the fly. No indication anyone was hit, though that doesn't mean it didn't happen. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:42, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Every single one of them, they were known to/by someone. That's the answer to the question in the heading. Now, if the question had been " How many people are known to have been hit...", the answer would be different. Yeah, it's a slow day today.. Moriori (talk) 02:02, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

The OP's question is was worded rather awkwardly. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:53, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
The question reminded me of Miller v Jackson, known to generations of law students for Lord Denning's opening "In summertime village cricket is the delight of everyone...". Though I'm not sure anyone was actually hit by the cricket balls in question. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:13, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
If they had, it could knock the de-lights out of them. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:32, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
The earlier case of Bolton v Stone (1951) is also relevant. Our article also quotes a US case: "Rinaldo v. McGovern (1991) ruled that two golfers, one of whom hit a golf ball which struck the plaintiff's automobile, were not liable to the plaintiff. The court opined that golf is a game in which even the most skilled players cannot avoid hitting shots off target on some occasion, and a player would be liable for a mis-hit ball only if the player had 'aimed so inaccurately as to unreasonably increase the risk of harm.'" Alansplodge (talk) 16:33, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
This article and the ones linked from it seem to indicate that even grossly inaccurate golfers may escape liability in various US jurisdictions. Tevildo (talk) 19:29, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

July 21[edit]

Very important, please read[edit]

Jack of Oz: I don't know if your hatting was right or wrong, but nicely done - Reasons for hatting... Smile-tpvgames.gif -- Apostle (talk) 05:39, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

July 22[edit]

What is a "silent cheer"?[edit]

This story has been making the rounds recently - an Australian school has banned applause in its assemblies: instead, the pupils students service users recipients of education must perform a "silent cheer". But what does this involve? A preliminary Google search is only coming up with this news story, and metaphorical uses of the term. Tevildo (talk) 00:44, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

It's described right there in the article you linked. "If you've been to a school assembly recently, you may have noticed our students doing silent cheers," it said. "Instead of clapping, the students are free to punch the air, pull excited faces and wriggle about on the spot.
Deaf people often 'clap' by putting their hands in the air, with fingers stretched out, and rotating their wrist back and forth, and/or wiggling fingers. (short example) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 02:04, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, I didn't immediately make the connection. Do we know if it's something this school has devised independently, or does it have a separate origin? Tevildo (talk) 21:36, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Does the "excited face" you "pull" have to be your own? Edison (talk) 23:33, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Is article 50 of the Lisbon treaty reversible?[edit]

The Independent newspaper makes a claim that Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty is reversible:

10. Triggering Article 50 is reversible! Not many people know this. But the UK can formally trigger its Article 50 request and then withdraw the request before Brexit actually takes place, if the country wants to.

I find this rather dubious. Unless there is some other rule or regulation that controls this it seems quite clear that there are three possible outcomes of invoking the article; ; extension, leaving with a deal or leaving by default after two years. I would argue that deciding to stay would be a negotiated agreement, requiring a qualified majority vote. However I can see an argument that it would be a change to articles and procedures, requiring a unanimous vote (I suppose if this was the case a country could always make an agreement that is almost the same as remaining to get a majority rather than unanimous vote). Is there some other way that a country could withdraw invocation of the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Q Chris (talkcontribs) 07:18, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

REad this - - and decide if you still think it is doubtful. The House of Lords got legal opinion about this, which agreed that it could be reversed as long as the final agreement, or the two year deadline, has not passed. Wymspen (talk) 07:47, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Do we know whether that reflects consensus? This is what the actual report says:

"Can a Member State’s decision to withdraw be reversed? 10. We asked our witnesses whether it was possible to reverse a decision to withdraw. Both agreed that a Member State could legally reverse a decision to withdraw from the EU at any point before the date on which the withdrawal agreement took effect. Once the withdrawal agreement had taken effect, however, withdrawal was final. Sir David told us: “It is absolutely clear that you cannot be forced to go through with it if you do not want to: for example, if there is a change of Government.”10 Professor Wyatt supported this view with the following legal analysis: “There is nothing in the wording to say that you cannot. It is in accord with the general aims of the Treaties that people stay in rather than rush out of the exit door. There is also the specific provision in Article 50 to the effect that, if a State withdraws, it has to apply to rejoin de novo. That only applies once you have left. If you could not change your mind after a year of thinking about it, but before you had withdrawn, you would then have to wait another year, withdraw and then apply to join again. That just does not make sense. Analysis of the text suggests that you are entitled to change your mind.”11 11. Professor Wyatt clarified that “a Member State remains a member of the European Union until the withdrawal agreement takes effect”, so would continue its membership on the same legal terms as before the decision to withdraw.12 12. Both witnesses drew a distinction, however, between the law and the politics of such a scenario. While the law was clear, “the politics of it would be completely different”, according to Professor Wyatt.13 Likewise, Sir David did not think that the politics “were as easy as saying, ‘The negotiations are over and we are back to where we started’”.14 13. We note in this context that the Conclusions of the 18–19 February 2016 European Council, at which the terms of the ‘New Settlement for the United Kingdom within the European Union’ were agreed, stated that “should the result of the referendum in the United Kingdom be for it to leave the European Union, the set of arrangements referred to [regarding the ‘New Settlement’] will cease to exist”.15 In other words, the outcome of the recent renegotiation of the UK’s membership terms will, in the event of a vote to leave the EU, fall the moment the result of the referendum is known." --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:22, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

  • It's worth noting that at this level of international law, things get pretty flexible. Realpolitik takes over, and treaties get bent - see Anarchy (international relations) for the various effects of this. If the UK decides it wants to stay, and the EU wants it to stay, then it will stay regardless of what lawyers say (or better put, lawyers will be found who agree the UK can stay). Smurrayinchester 10:42, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
    Even beyond that. Absolutely anything in the treaties can be rewritten with unanimous consent of the countries. Even if something isn't in any way in the treaties now, it could still be added. Dragons flight (talk) 10:58, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Sub-categories of pedophiles[edit]

Do pedophiles fall into sub categories in terms of their preference, such as little boys or little girls? Does that make them straight or gay?

Are pedophiles more likely to take a seme sex preference, or are interests evenly distributed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 12:58, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Our article Pedophilia discusses this a bit, you might find more relevant statistics in the references. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:10, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

unable to login[edit]

i am trying to login to my account. i have forgotten my password. the prompt is asking for my email. i am entering it but you are not sending me a link to reset my password. richard davies — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:44, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Hi Richard. First, it is not any of us specifically that would send you a link, that is handled by an automated script. As for the email, I'm not sure what the problem might be, but you could try checking your email's "junk" or "spam" folders, sometimes password reset messages get caught there by accident. Also you may have signed up with a different/older email account, so make sure you check all email addresses you can. Finally, it might be easiest to just make a new account. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:56, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

July 23[edit]

import a value(in a specific field) from an external url[edit]

I'm new here and would like to know if my project could be possible on wikipedia. My goal is to import values from an external web page listing live water flow measurement of various rivers. I've searched à couple of hours now and don't really find what I'm looking for.

here an example of the flow measurement, the value of the first line on the last collumn is the number needed (under flow in m3/s)

I think I've found something useful on mediawiki (Extension:External Data) but it seems to works on personnal server, something I'm not planning to use.

Thanks for your help! — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 02:06, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

WP: Help desk or WP: Village pump are better places for this sort of thing. 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:9D03:2DE0:AA61:B599 (talk) 04:36, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

July 24[edit]