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Wikipedia Reference Desk - All recent questions
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July 24[edit]

Open source and Microsoft/Apple[edit]

Have Microsoft or Apple released open source software/tools/standards? --Hofhof (talk) 13:33, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

"Open source software is at the heart of Apple platforms and developer tools, and Apple continues to contribute and release significant quantities of open source code." You can find code at: and you can read more about Unix in Apple's core system software at the System Technology Overview website.
Nimur (talk) 14:09, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
And normally, can this Apple's software be run on non-Apple computers?--Hofhof (talk) 17:12, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Some Apple software is provided for non-Apple platforms, a well-known example being iTunes. It's up to Apple. Darwin is the free/open-source base for Apple's operating systems; since it's free software, you can do anything you want with it. However, most of the bells and whistles that distinguish Apple's operating systems like OS X are proprietary components layered on top of Darwin. Apple's licensing terms for these only allow you to run them on Apple hardware. -- (talk) 19:20, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
The last time I checked, iTunes is not open-source software. Apple certainly does not try to portray iTunes as open-source software in any way, so it seems as though the topic is drifting.
To clarify this confusion: the OP asked about open source software. This terminology is frequently confused and mis-used; and maybe our OP wasn't even sure what they were asking for. The follow-up questions seem to suggest that the OP isn't actually looking for source code, and/or does not know what one does when they have source code - in other words, it sounds like they're mis-interpreting the meaning of "open source software."
For clarity: our original questioner might be seeking:
  • software that is available at zero cost ("free software" in the sense of zero-cost); or,
  • software that can be studied, modified, and used without restriction ("free software" in the sense of liberal licensing); or,
  • source code for software (open source software, which may be either freely or restrictively licensed)
As it turns out, Apple provides instances of all of these sorts of software: some Apple software is totally non-free (restrictively licensed); some is free (zero cost) but is not open-source software, and that may or may not be restrictively licensed - an example might be some of the built-in software on your Mac; some Apple software is completely free (for example, licensed under the GPL, a BSD licsense, or similar), like the version of bash that Apple distributes; some is free and open-source under a slightly more restrictive license (including the Apple Public Source License). Apple's software falls everywhere along the entire spectrum.
It is certainly possible to build and run free, open-source software released by Apple, even on other platforms. In some cases, this requires great technical proficiency; in other cases, such as Swift for Linux, Apple provides pre-built executable programs that will run on nearly any hardware that can run a recent Ubuntu variant of Linux. Once again, Apple's software falls everywhere along the entire spectrum.
Nimur (talk) 04:45, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Just one correction: "Source code available software" is not necessarily open source software by either popular understanding or by The Open Source Definition. To be open source, software has to be under a free (not in the sense of "extremely cheap", but in the 35 words sense ;-) license. Also see FLOSS. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:30, 29 July 2016 (UTC) lists various Microsoft open-source projects. Microsoft Research has its own list, which includes the Glasgow Haskell Compiler. -- BenRG (talk) 19:12, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Thunderbird is sending HTML code in the body of the message[edit]

Thunderbird has started sending HTML code in the body of the message. I posted a message on TB support a week ago, but haven't gotten a reply. Someone else has the same problem.

I went to Tools/Options/Send options and "send messages as plain test if possible" is checked and I changed "send the message as both plain text and HTML" to "convert the message to plain text", but that didn't fix the problem.

It doesn't do it all of the time, I don't think.

Does anyone have ideas on how to fix this? Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 16:08, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

It is doing it all of the time, unless I attach a text file. And I've tried other options for the plain/html setting. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 16:16, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
And I have the same version of Thunderbird on an old computer, but it does not have the problem. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 16:29, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
I would uninstall (even purge) it and install it again. --Hofhof (talk) 17:17, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
The settings do not change when reinstalling it. Settings are stored in the user profile. Send options can be modified in the settings. --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 18:16, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
That's why I said 'even purge.' Hofhof (talk) 18:48, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
What do you mean by purge - delete settings too? Maybe I should do a MozBackup from the old computer where it is working? Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 23:12, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Neither Firebird or IE would download any file - it said "failed". I found an unwanted program called ByteFence. After I uninstalled that, downloads started working again and the problem with Thunderbird went away.

I think that Freemake Video Downloader did it. I've been using it for months - maybe over a year. The last time I downloaded an update, it installed a browser hijacker. When I searched for ByteFence, it is mentioned in the article. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 23:22, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

What to do in Linux when nothing appears to work?[edit]

What to do when even the keyboard is unresponsive, and not even ctrl+alt+F3 would work? I've got this suggestion: Holding ALT, tap [sys rq], r, e, i, s, u, b. But this does not appear to do anything for me. Could it be that different distros need different combinations of keys? --Hofhof (talk) 17:50, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

You're going to need to provide more details. What is happening leading up to what you're describing? Are you booting the system and finding it unresponsive, or is this happening after using it for a while, or what? The SysRq thing is magic SysRq. Most distro kernels I think have it enabled, but it's not guaranteed that every distro does. Also if the system totally locks up—for instance, there's a kernel panic—magic SysRq won't do anything. It's not actually magic! Face-wink.svg It's more for, say, when X freezes. -- (talk) 19:15, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Then again, there is always this technique...  :(   -Guy Macon (talk) 02:38, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
  • @Hofhof: Sysrq is deactivated by default, or at least restricted, on some distros. I learnt it the hard way on Ubuntu 14; see the first answer of this for how to fix it on Ubuntu (of course, once the computer froze, it is too late). What is your distribution?
Notice that there is an excellent security reason for such a restriction - but if it is your personal machine which none else has physical access to, it is not relevant. And as the IP said, sometimes, there is just nothing that will work. TigraanClick here to contact me 09:37, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I am running Debian. I am the only user of this computer and don't fear people who could have access to my computer. Hofhof (talk) 12:24, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
If only the UI has failed, a common method for debugging is to enable the ssh server, and monitor logs from a remote machine that has used ssh to connect to the local machine, or to restart your graphical desktop environment using a shell command. If you're unfamiliar with using ssh, start with our article on SSH, and next, here's a tutorial specifically for Debian. Here is a list of system monitoring and logging tools you can use to perform basic triage. In many cases, you can simply kill and restart the graphic environment. If you're using GNOME3, here are instructions for managing gdm on debian, including the "correct" way to stop and restart its UI services.
When things go really wrong, like a kernel panic, it means the bug is much more severe, and the system has crashed beyond just the graphical interface. In those cases, you need a lot more expertise: you'll have to set up the machine for kernel debugging, and you'll need a second machine; and sometimes you will require specific computer hardware that makes such debugging possible. If you aren't familiar with this type of workflow, your best recourse as a user is to check if the release notes describe any known bugs and solutions.
Nimur (talk) 14:12, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
  • "Debian" (whatever version that is) is a lot like Ubuntu (purists will say it is rather the other way around); going by this forum thread, in particular post #3, the spirit of the Ubuntu thread I linked likely applies. Check if your "magic key" variable is set to accept the "REISUB" sequence.
Additional note: you have to hold down both alt and sysrq while typing in the sequence. On some keyboards configurations it is even Fn+Alt+Sysrq held down during the sequence (so 4 keys at a given time). TigraanClick here to contact me 15:54, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

If the "keyboard is unresponsive" wouldn't the first thing to try is another keyboard? CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 01:00, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Forgive the user for a little bit of imprecise language in describing the symptom: it's a near-certainty that the keyboard hardware is not a causal factor in this case. The user meant to say something to the effect that the computer system fails to respond to keypress events. This is most probably due to a software bug in the desktop environment management software, or to a kernel oops, which (for most end-users) would be caused by an undiagnosed software bug in some device driver. There is a near-infinite list of other possible causes, and strictly speaking, we can't rule them out until we disprove every possibility, but in a typical workflow diagnosing such a problem, the first action is to start the investigation by collecting detailed information about the symptoms, and chasing down the most probable causes. Nimur (talk) 17:48, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Has the keyboard ever worked with this OS installed or is this a new OS install? Is this by any chance a Debian install on the Raspberry Pi? Akld guy (talk) 20:34, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
On my Linux machine, the keyboard is plugged into a USB port but the USB ports are not all identical. The motherboard has a chip called a VIA VL800 that allows it to support more USB ports, but somehow this chip apparently gets locked up. If I have the keyboard on one of the ports connected to it, the system either stops hearing keypresses or thinks it is continuously hearing the same keypress. Rebooting the machine fixes things, but if I just want the keyboard to work, moving it onto one of the ports not connected through the VL800 chip does the job. (I normally don't use those ports very much now.) This may be a rare quirk of my machine but I pass it along for what it's worth. -- (talk) 21:54, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Why is everywhere so desperate for you to use their app instead of their site?[edit]

i.e. Pinterest but especially obscure sites that are commodities (i.e. a funny picture site) and couldn't be helped by an app (unlike i.e. Google Maps). They probably had to pay someone to write that stupid app for them. Why? If you actually got all the apps pushed in your face the phone would be clogged with apps that were only used once. Do the apps have a $.99 to $3.99 or so purchase or something that's far, far, far more valuable than advertising income? Do app ads pay more than site ads? Is it like this?: Say app and suddenly everyone wants it Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:39, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

One reason is that apps can get access to personal information, such as a unique phone ID and your contacts, that in-browser Javascript is typically blocked from accessing. -- BenRG (talk) 01:44, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Another reason is that they can be more in your field of view, doing alerts and popups, so even if you don't visit their web site or fire up their app they can get a message on your phone screen. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 06:34, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
While apps may be able to do a bit more, websites can now send notifications via the browser if it supports them and the user allows it. Most major browsers on mobile platforms do, with the notable exception of Safari on iOS [1]. (If you've ever agreed to let Facebook send notifications via the browser, you'll probably see it isn't that different from the app.) Nil Einne (talk) 11:43, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I have some experience with this regarding restaurants. They give their apps away for free, often with an incentive, like a free app (appetizer) when you get their free app (application). I can think of two reasons they hope to eventually implement:
1) GPS related offers. So, when they see you are on "restaurant row", but just walked past their restaurant, they may send you an offer to get you to turn around and come in.
2) Inventory related offers. When they see they aren't going to sell all their shrimp before they close, they might search for anyone in the area and offer them a discount on shrimp to get rid of the excess, before they close and have to toss it out. Or they might send the offer out to everyone, but those who get notifications on their cell phones will presumably see them sooner than those who may not view their email until the next morning, and, once home, people are more reluctant to go out again.
Now these ideas might not be implemented yet, but meanwhile they want to increase their user base so it will be there when they are ready. StuRat (talk) 15:10, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Previous answers boil down to "collect user data for profiling future advertisement", which is likely true, but I see another reason here in the case of apps that include advertisements.
At least 99% of web advertisement today, either in terms of money or data, is delegated by websites to third parties (Google, Criteo, etc.). In-app advertisement is probably not much harder to block than in-browser, technically (I think? putting Google et. al.'s advertising domains on the IP blacklist) - but few know how to fiddle with hosts (file), while a significant proportion of internet users can hit the "download Adblock plus plugin" button on their browser. Attack ad: ABP runs an extorsion racket - use Ghostery instead. As a result, the proportion of users that will use your service but not generate ad revenues will be much lower with an app.
Slight off-topic: Note that this delegation to third parties makes it (relatively) easy to filter out the ad traffic, but before ad blockers the delegation was a win-win. Website admins do not have the technical headache to set up the advertisements as it is taken care by specialists; they do not need to vet advertisers, make them compete for spots, etc. On the other side, big ad companies can collect user data across multiple sites, use big data voodoo to profile the users, and serve them tailored advertisements. This increases by a large factor the click-per-view and buy-per-view statistics, which means an advertiser will be ready to pay a lot more per view. TigraanClick here to contact me 16:16, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

July 25[edit]

Microsoft after 2025[edit]

Starting a year ago, everything is Windows 10; there never will be any newer version of Windows. However, as early as late 2025, Windows 10 will become obsolete, according to the article Windows 10. What Microsoft software will be available for 2026?? This question's answer should be known by this time next year. Georgia guy (talk) 21:55, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Those dates apply only to "Windows 10, released in July 2015", i.e., if you never install newer versions like the upcoming Anniversary Update. I edited the article to make that clearer. -- BenRG (talk) 05:37, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
The edit was reverted. In any case, all they've done here is contractually commit to supporting Windows 10 until 2025. With past OS releases, they've always extended those dates later, often conditioned on installing service packs. For example, the original Windows 7 no longer gets security patches (since 2013), but with SP1 (which is a free upgrade) it's supported until 2020. Windows 8 no longer gets patched but Windows 8.1 does. With Windows 10 they've changed the naming again, but presumably the pattern will be the same: "released on such-and-such date" means "service pack N". I wouldn't bet that they'll be supporting Windows 10 SP50 in 2100, but that's their plan at the moment. -- BenRG (talk) 18:19, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
If the answer will be known next year, how could we know it now? 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:807B:66FA:B5EC:A602 (talk) 01:55, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
What is the statement that "there never will be any newer version of Windows" based on ? If we accept that as true, there are at least 2 ways to interpret it:
1) They will just call new versions Windows 10.x, like they did with Windows 3.x for quite a while.
2) Microsoft may plan on leaving the PC operating system market entirely, considering mobile devices to be the future. They may have different names in mind for the O/S's on those. StuRat (talk) 02:06, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Or 3) they will stop using the discrete version model of releasing software in favor of the software as a service model See [ ] For those using it, quick, without checking, what version of the Google chrome web browser are you running? --Guy Macon (talk) 06:38, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

July 27[edit]

Some C# help needed[edit]

Hi guys! Could somebody help out with C#? If I have regex pattern ([^\.])<ref>.*?<\/ref> (Lorem|Foo)? bar and string "Foo<ref>Foo</ref> Foo bar", how to change to lowercase only the second match (in this case - the "Foo", that comes after ref)? If I would need to lowercase everything, I would use something like (tested with other string, so this one may contain some small bugs, but you got the idea):

	string text = @"Foo<ref>Foo</ref> Foo bar";
	string pattern = @"([^\.])<ref>.*?<\/ref> (Lorem|Foo)? bar";
	text = Regex.Replace(text, pattern, delegate(Match match)
	    string v = match.ToString();
	    return v.ToLower();

Note, that this is for AWB module, so it might not look very C#-ish. --Edgars2007 (talk/contribs) 09:16, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Maybe Trappist the monk could take a look - you have also worked with AWB modules. --Edgars2007 (talk/contribs) 11:28, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Try this:
	string text = @"Foo<ref>Foo</ref> Foo bar";
	string pattern = @"([^\.])<ref>.*?<\/ref> (Lorem|Foo)? bar";
	text = Regex.Replace(text, pattern, delegate(Match match)
	    return match.Groups[2].Value.ToLower();	// second capture to lower case
Not tested, but I've used this construct before.
Trappist the monk (talk) 11:55, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
@Trappist the monk: it kind of works. String after this becomes "Fofoo". Yes, that is what I was expecting to see after running this code, but not what I wanted to get ("Foo<ref>Foo</ref> foo bar"). --Edgars2007 (talk/contribs) 12:44, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps this then:
	string text = @"Foo<ref>Foo</ref> Foo bar";
	string pattern = @"([^\.]<ref>.*?<\/ref> )(Lorem|Foo)?( bar)";	// captures modified
	text = Regex.Replace(text, pattern, delegate(Match match)
	    return match.Groups[1].Value + match.Groups[2].Value.ToLower() + match.Groups[3].Value;	// second capture to lower case
Again, not tested. Regex.Replace replaces all of text with whatever you return from the delegate(), right? If you want to keep bits of text then you need to capture them, modify the captures to suit, reassemble, and return the result. match.Groups[0] is the raw match; match.Groups[1] is the first capture, etc.
Trappist the monk (talk) 13:24, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
@Trappist the monk: I thought, that there will be easier solution, but this one works, so thank you! --Edgars2007 (talk/contribs) 17:35, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

xwp file[edit]

How do I install a .xwp file? Can someone help me please? I collected some clock gadgets a while back from this website. After downloading and opening the WinRar folder, I found a .xwp file - if I re-extract this .xwp file, I find a Widget folder which consisting all the bits. Problem is I still don't know how to install... -- Apostle (talk) 18:12, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Your link goes to Google Images and doesn't open any particular image for me. You need to link to the actual web site, not Google Images.
After 60 seconds of research (googling "xwp gadget") I found XWidget which seems to use .xwp files, so maybe that's what you need. I know nothing about it, though. -- BenRG (talk) 23:27, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

July 28[edit]

Computer can't detect other computers on network when conected on wireless router.[edit]

I have a network here and the network was just wired, the internet modem was connected to a switch where the computer put their wires on.
We decided to include wireless and we plugged a wireless router on the switch.
The problem is: If you join the network by wireless conection or by plugging your network cord on the wireless router, this specific computer will just be able to see others computers plugged on the same router (by wireless or not), if I want to look at the others computers at the same network, i must do it by ip.
PS: Internet works fine no matter if I plug on the wireless router or switcher.
What can be the problem here? (talk) 13:21, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

  • It probably does not matter here, but next time you have an IT-related question, try to be more specific. What are the router's specifications? What operating systems do the computers use? How many of them are located on which point of the network? What does it mean to "see" other computers?
You are putting routers in series and trying to set up a local area network where every router can see everything. That is a hard thing to do because the default router configs are probably to have two modes, (1) internet access, (2) scan all other ports of the router. This means that if you are connected to router W (Wifi), itself plugged in router M (modem), you need to tell W to ask M if they have someone plugged in.
This is probably not in the standard configuration. Maybe you expected routers to be just "cable splitters", but it is a bit more complex (they need to keep track of which packet goes where when multiple computers connect on the internet, for instance).
On the other hand, depending on what you really want, there are multiple possible solutions, by increasing order of difficulty and decreasing order of convenience:
  • Plug all the computers that need to communicate on a single router (duh), either W or M.
  • Use the IP connection. It should not be much slower, as the access point just behind M (or even M itself) will just loop back the request to the correct place. If you know how to do it, perform a traceroute to know which it is - it may matter, because the access point may charge for data (I am not sure about a loopback though).
  • Set up port forwarding (or rather "adress-forwarding") telling M that some traffic coming from W ought to be redirected to other plugged-in computers. This requires more network knowledge than I am capable of, but maybe someone knows some pre-packaged software for that? TigraanClick here to contact me 17:54, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Win 10 Upgrade & Win 7 updates[edit]

Before upgrading my laptop operating system (Win7 Home Premium) to Windows 10, is it necessary to have all other Win7 updates installed? As an aside, the free upgrade end date is 29 July in the US (which I didn't realise) as according to the countdown here, there is still about 33 hours and some minutes to go. 220 of Borg 14:47, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

As I understand, not. Ruslik_Zero 20:59, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
You MUST have Service Pack SP1 installed.[2] If you've at all times kept up to date, it will already be present. Akld guy (talk) 21:48, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
More queries:Thanks for info guys. Yes Akld guy I do have SP1 installed.
• I was thinking of creating another set of restore DVDs before the free Win' 10 upgrade (or maybe a USB this time), then I realised what I really needed was a HDD disk image. Any good free downloadable software anyone could suggest?
• Does the upgrade 'preserve' all programs like games etc, or do these need to be (shudder) re-installed after the Win' 10 upgrade? (≈32 hours to go!) --220 of Borg 01:45, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
@220 of Borg: Last year, I did the upgrade on two Win7 laptops. The first went smoothly and from memory (and without starting the laptop to confirm), all non-essential stuff was moved into a new folder, C:\Windows.old. The second went smoothly but the sound driver was incompatible with 10 and no upgrade of the driver was available, so I reverted that laptop to 7. There are sites online that will tell you how to do that. I later tried twice to install new sound drivers and did the upgrade to 10 both times, but neither solution worked and I was forced to revert to 7 both times. It's very easy to revert, and even after the 3 reverts no trace of 10 remains. It's just a click and wait and reboot, so you can have confidence that it's all reversable. Akld guy (talk) 04:05, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks Akld guy for the feedback & your personal experience (even without references Face-wink.svg).
• Did you just do the update via the 'standard method' the 'GWX' Win'10 upgrade 'box', as I was thinking of going the 'media creation tool' ISO download route.[3] If the former, how long did the download take, if you can recall.
• I mean, it is 'just' a big update isn't it? Not like a whole new operating system? (≈28 hours to go!) -220 of Borg 05:34, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Just to add that you only have 31 days to revert the Windows 10 "upgrade".[4] After Microsoft forced the upgrade on me I didn't find this out until it was too late. I and a lot of other people have had constant trouble with it. And yes, some games such as FreeCell that come with Win 7 will disappear as they are not compatible, but you can probably find compatible versions and download them.--Shantavira|feed me 07:07, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
I did it via the GWX offer. I can't remember how long it took. Akld guy (talk) 08:36, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Ok thanks. Akld guy. Shantavira, it sounds like you got the upgrade without meaning to? I hear that the 'close window' X turned into a 'download now' button at one stage? And what sort of problems has it caused? (≈22.5 hours to go!)- 220 of Borg 11:25, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Symbol opinion vote.svg- WT$! Despite what the countdown timer on the Microsoft site says, I clicked on the GWX icon on my laptop and now it says "Sorry, the free upgrade offer has ended" Note, I am in Australia so UTC+10. I am pissed off now! False 'advertising'?--220 of Borg 19:13, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

That website [5] seems to 'cue' off your PC local clock setting. I have now set my PC clock back a day, and, the GWX box now says I have about 18 hours, 40 minutes and the website says 1 day, 14 hours, 40 minutes. Wonder if it will download? 220 of Borg 19:22, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

XPATH query[edit]

I have an XML file (produced by a third-party application, so I can't change the format), which is as follows:

    ... etc

In other words, the only thing determining which source goes with which destination is the order the elements appear in the document. What I'm doing at the moment is:

IXMLDOMNodeList ndlSources = docFiles.getNodeList("CopyFiles/SourceFile");
IXMLDOMNodeList ndlDests = docFiles.getNodeList("CopyFiles/DestFile");
foreach (IXMLDOMElement eltSource in ndlSources)
   IXMLDOMElement eltDest = ndlDests.nextNode;
   String SourceFile = eltSource.text;
   String DestFile = eltDest.text;

and hoping that the two lists stay in synch, despite the tendency of Certain Users to fiddle about with things despite being told not to. What I'd like to do is set the XPATH query so that it only returns SourceFile elements that are followed by a DestFile element - ideally, one that would return SourceFile/DestFile pairs, but if I can at least ensure that both node lists are the same length, and any unmatched elements are omitted, the system will be a great deal more robust. I suspect the answer will involve "following-sibling", but I'm not knowledgeable enough to actually construct the query. Any suggestions? Tevildo (talk) 21:45, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

July 29[edit]

Reduction proof for halting problem[edit]

Dear Wikipedians:

Just wondering if there is an approach to proving the halting problem by reducing it to the problem of counting real numbers. To the effect that if the halting problem can be solved, then we could use the resulting algorithm to count reals, which is known to be impossible by Cantor's diagnoalization arguments.

I know that the original proof of the halting problem itself uses diagnoalization. I thought that if we can reduce the halting problem to counting reals, then it would illustrate, in a very graphical way, why the halting problem is impossible to solve, since those of us who have even a little instruction in mathematics intuitively knows how impossible counting real numbers can be.

Thanks, (talk) 12:05, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

  • What is your question, exactly?
The halting problem is to find an algorithm that takes as inputs a program and its input and determines whether it will eventually stop running when executed. If you can prove that such an algorithm can be modified to "count reals", i.e. make it into something that computes some bijective function , then yes, you proved that the halting problem cannot be solved (because there is no such ). But the hard part is obviously to find how to do such a modification. TigraanClick here to contact me 13:56, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Cantor's and Turing's diagonalization proofs are almost identical in structure. I'm not sure that you can reduce Turing's problem to Cantor's, though, because of a technicality: the "output" of Cantor's proof is just that any list of reals omits some real; it doesn't tell you which real that is (even though it constructs one). In contrast, Turing's proof needs the fact that a specific machine (the one that halts just on non-halting inputs) is missing from the list.
But you certainly could illustrate Turing's proof graphically, as Cantor's often is. The vertical axis of the grid would be an enumeration of Turing machines, the horizontal axis would be an enumeration of possible inputs, and each grid entry would be 1 if that machine halts on that input and 0 if not (for example). -- BenRG (talk) 22:24, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

56,098,816 = 219 · 107[edit]

The above number represents the maximum size, in pixels, of the largest displayable image-file on Mozilla Firefox. Though this fact can be easily verified, I haven't been able to find a reference to this specific value anywhere. Should it nonetheless be included on Wikipedia ? — (talk) 16:08, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:No original research.--Mrs Wibble-Wobble (talk) 16:33, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

VOIP provider with wifi/3G handover[edit]

Is there a VOIP app for Android with automatic 3G/wifi handover?

The walls in my house block the mobile signal, and the wifi. I have to go outside to talk on my mobile. I have two wifi routers with a Powerline, and even then the signal is patchy. VOIP works on the wifi, but I have to stay in the same place. If I walk across the house during a Skype call, it disconnects because it has to switch wifi networks.

The only thing that works is Whatsapp. It has automatic handover between 3G wifi, so the call continues even if it has to switch connection. Is there an app like Skype which does this and lets me call other numbers? I'm in the UK. I have a good broadband connection. --2A02:C7D:42AB:3800:D867:E3A0:3935:BB56 (talk) 16:50, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Need SQL Server[edit]

Hi there,

I had a well oiled Windows 7 workstation with SQL Server on it. I got it as a part of MSDN network membership perhaps 10 years or so ago. It must have been SQL Server 2005. Then My workstation crashed. I purchased a Windows 7 OS and installed it. As part of the installation some folders with SQL Server appeared in the directory. I tried to connect it with my database which is external and it failed. My understanding is that I need still install the SQL Server. My needs are small and I definitely do not want to purchase the latest edition. My MSDN membership is gone now. So, I am looking for a free ride.

I know that SQL Server Express has always been free but how about SQL Server 2005, the old edition. Is it free now? It would be ideal for me to install that. I wonder if any good suggestions may be provided to help me to install a database. Thanks, --AboutFace 22 (talk) 17:55, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Microsoft SQL Server Express --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 21:55, 29 July 2016 (UTC)


July 25[edit]

Glassy carbon[edit]

How is glassy carbon made? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:D013:7C29:7816:F57B (talk) 03:15, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article you linked contains links to information on scientific journals and patents which should describe exactly that. --Jayron32 10:23, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
This supplier describes a full range of glassy carbon products, from which you may glean ideas about the processes used to make them. AllBestFaith (talk) 22:16, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Question about gardasil research[edit]

According to here,,under the the question about why Gardasil is recommended for preteens,it states that the vaccine provides a higher immune response in preteens. Where can I find research which proves this?

And how less effective is the vaccine for those aged 22-26? 30 percent less? 50 percent? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uncle dan is home (talkcontribs) 04:16, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

(EC) The vaccine most effective by far if the person does not already have the strains of HPV it's effective against. As the strains of HPV are primarily sexual transmitted, once the person has had sex, there is a risk they've already caughtbeen infected by one or more of the strains of HPV the vaccine targets. Effectiveness will depend significantly on whether this has happened which will vary from individual to individual (although by 22 years old, the percentage of people who have not been sexually active in the US seems to be quite low). You could look at this on a population basis and it's possible there are studies which have done so but it's definitely not a simple estimation. There may be a minor advantage due to increase immune response, but this isn't the primary advantage to vaccinating at an early age and the site you linked to seem to reflect that. Nil Einne (talk) 09:14, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
The immune response to the vaccine is about 50% weaker in young adults than in teens, as measured by circulating anti-HPV antibodies[6]. However, it is unknown whether this makes women immunized in young adulthood more vulnerable to HPV infection than women immunized as teens or pre-teens. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:05, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
And in addition, because of Nil Einne's response, this finding hold's true even if the women have no prior exposure to HPV, at least as can be measured. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:20, 25 July 2016 (UTC)


What real-life plant (if any) was the stand-in for the Middle-Earth medicinal herb Athelas (kingsfoil) in the movie Lord of the Rings? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:D013:7C29:7816:F57B (talk) 08:30, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

This may help. --Jayron32 10:21, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I searched the internet far and wide, and came across the same article as Jayron, but it doesn't answer the actual question. That page is asking what actual plant matches the description of Kingsfoil from the books, none of which resemble the plant that was shown on screen in Peter Jackson's film version. The internet doesn't seem to know the answer to the question. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:39, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I can't help today, but OP can likely get some potential answers by posting that clip (or ideally a few still frames) to the plant ID experts at Reddit's /r/whatsthisplant [7]. 14:01, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I had a look at the clip - but to be honest it is so dark in that scene,and you get such a brief glimpse of the plant, by torchlight, that it could be almost any low-growing, New Zealand plant (though obviously not a grass). Wymspen (talk) 15:13, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I could not identify it after looking at the clip. It is not inconsistent with native NZ bush, so Jackson may very well have used what was on hand in a typical bush setting. Akld guy (talk) 23:14, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
  • I am not sure why anyone would take Jackson's bastardizations as having anything to do with Tolkien's novel. But basil is an herb known for its aroma (put a teaspoon, even dried, in a small boiling pot to see) and the name comes ultimately from the Greek basileus for king. μηδείς (talk) 01:15, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Here, by the way, is all the canonical description there is: "... long leaves .... a sweet and pungent fragrance." —Tamfang (talk) 06:24, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Not basil, then. The fragrance might be right, but basil does not have long leaves. Wymspen (talk) 12:00, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
And eagles are not large enough to carry hobbits, Beren, or Luthien--my suggestion is that the inspiration is obvious, and there are indeed varieties with long, rather than round leaves. μηδείς (talk) 21:56, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
However, every schoolboy knows that dock leaves cure nettle rash. Alansplodge (talk) 20:04, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Anglican schoolboys, perhaps. No Merickan's ever heard of either 'cept in litrature. μηδείς (talk) 22:21, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
You appear to have used 'Anglican' to mean 'English', but in Britain and its Commonwealth (Australia, New Zealand, possibly Canada, and many others), the term means 'one who is an adherent of the Anglican church'. That's the way I read it, and it didn't make sense until I read the Merickan part :)) Akld guy (talk) 03:02, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, I was working on the premise that JRR was an Englishman, and would have known what English schoolboys know, since he had been one. Alansplodge (talk) 17:42, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Nichrome wire heating element calculation[edit]

Nichrome wire heating element.jpg

So I'm a building myself a heat press for a fashion project of mine. And right now I'm struggling to find a power supply for a structure I've made. The problem is that I don't know how many Volts I need to put through my Nichrome wire heating element to bright it up to the desired temperature of 300-400C and also how much Watts should the power supply be able withstand.

The heating element is made of ~14meters of 2mm thick Nichrome wire. I understand that it is probably too thick, but I've already fixed it in place so I'd rather make the press work with it instead of having to replace all the wire entirely. I've measured the resistance of the wire and it is 5.7ohms in total.

How do I calculate the current and voltage needed to heat it up to 300-400C? Is it even possible to reach such temperature wit the wire such thick? Stepan Drunks (talk) 11:11, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Our article on Nichrome has a table suggesting that 2 mm diameter wire needs 15-20 Amps to reach 300-400 C in open air. Looking at the picture, you seem to have the wire wound back and forth, which would somewhat reduce air cooling, and probably means you need to use somewhat less current. 15-20 Amps corresponds to 85-115 V, if your resistance measurement is accurate (it seems plausible for the dimensions given). It may go without saying, but you are talking about dangerous voltages, dangerous currents, and dangerous temperatures. If you aren't familiar with the safe handling of these materials, I would strongly encourage you to find someone with more experience to supervise your work. In particular, it looks like you mounted the wire in a metal frame. This could be very dangerous if the current unexpectedly moves through the frame rather than through the heating element. Dragons flight (talk) 11:44, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Agreed. You would want ceramic insulators separating the heating wire from the frame. This is both for electrical and thermal insulation. You want to avoid the frame becoming so hot you burn yourself if you brush up against it, and you also want to avoid the heating wire cooling down at the edges, for most applications. Look at electrical resistance space heater designs. The good ones use insulators. StuRat (talk) 14:57, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
  • As always, use a spreadsheet model to calculate this, so that you can change the parameters interactively without having to manually recalculate the lot.
You can calculate the power for a nichrome element from standard tables, or from standard tables of its resistance, then . There are online calculators like this It's not an easy calculation from scratch, as the resistivity of the wire is temperature dependent. This power calculation, and then some estimation based on specific heat capacity, will give you a range limit (but not an estimate!) for the press temperature.
You can also get a triac controller (cheap modules from eBay) and an IR thermometer (again, eBay). Then just do some experimentation, but starting small.
As a wild guess, your wire is too thick. A simple estimate says that on 240V mains voltage that's a 10kW heater. This is too big to supply from a domestic 3kW supply and too big to design and build as a first experiment with the technology. If you run it from a low voltage supply, it's still a very low impedance - that means it's either a difficult high current to manage, or else a very low power. At 12V it's only 25W, at 24V only 100W. These are easy voltages to work with (cheap control modules are available), but I doubt that's enough power to be useful. I'd choose a wire size to make a mains-powered element just powerful enough (allowing scope for control) to achieve the temperature needs. I also don't like the look of all that unsupported wire - nichrome expands a lot when hot, so the elements sag. This takes them away from the press surface and the repeated movement also shortens element life.
You can use constant current supplies for small elements, but not large, hot elements. They're easy to work with, but not once the wire gets hot enough to start changing its own resistance.
I think I'd look at starting again. Calculate the power needed _first_, then design an element to deliver this. The power/temperature relationship depends on the heating time: a fast heat might be dominated by the specific heat capacity of the material being pressed (i.e. heating up a cold item) whilst a long heat becomes dominated by heat losses to the outside, which is all about the insulation.
I'd try phoning a heating element maker, or a wire seller, and asking them for advice from the outset. You might also find a heating blanket or a pre-made flat panel is much easier to work with than bare wire. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:56, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Construction points:

  • Assuming your heating element is mains powered, the frame must be connected to ground.
  • The target temperature range 300-400C will melt solder so the electrical connections must be by screws or crimped.
  • Ceramic or mica standoff insulators are needed to support the heating wire. The support strips in the photograph look inadequate and possibly conductive(!)
  • For testing it's very desirable to use a Variac [8] (see Autotransformer) to adjust the mains supply, gradually increasing the voltage while monitoring both voltage and current to confirm your calculation.
  • Wires at more than 10V potential should not be exposed to fingers or moisture.
  • For safety, heaters of this kind are usually equipped with a Thermostat, a power "ON" lamp and a fuse and/or Circuit breaker.

The article Electric heating is required reading. AllBestFaith (talk) 22:07, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I'm going to repeat what some people above had already said. It appears that you are a fashion student, not an electrical engineering student. I have made many electrical projects and even a few high voltage projects, seeing the box you've made and hearing you are considering plugging it into the mains makes me very nervous. 400c is VERY hot, it's far hotter than a clothes iron and it's even hotter than I ever put my soldering iron on. What do you need that kind of temperature for? Vespine (talk) 22:51, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Agreed. 400 °C is the sort of temperature where lots of stuff spontaneously catches fire. Projects using high voltage OR high current already require lots and lots of care to do safely, and high-power – i.e. high-voltage AND high-current simultaneously – is the sort of thing you really, really don't want to mess with unless you know exactly what you're doing. With all due respect, if you need help with these calculations, chances are you're not at that point just yet. Please don't get yourself killed! --Link (tcm) 01:03, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Efficiency of carbohydrates to fat conversion[edit]

Good evening, folks. As you know, the human body can convert excess carbohydrates into fat. What is the average efficiency of this process? Thanks.-- (talk) 21:22, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

What kind of efficiency are you looking for ?
1) As far as what proportion of the carbohydrates are destroyed in the process, rather than converted to fat, not counting those which are "burnt" to create energy, I would guess that portion is quite low.
2) As far as energy used to do the conversion, that may well be significant (whether that energy comes from carbs, fat, protein, glucose, etc.). Would you measure that energy in proportion with the energy stored in the fat created ? StuRat (talk) 01:56, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
The energy to convert carbs to fat comes from NADPH, which is a byproduct of the conversion of glucose into the precursors to nucleotides and aromatic amino acids. One NADPH per carbon, to be specific, and two NADPH is generated per glucose consumed, so basically it takes three glucose molecules to incorporate one glucose molecule into a fatty acid. It's actually really hard to put an energetic cost and thus efficiency on this, for several reasons. 1) The reactions occur spontaneously; 2) Simply getting to the acyl-CoA precursor to make fatty acids passes through glycolysis, which generates energy; 3) The glucose that was consumed to generate the NADPH needed to be consumed anyway to generate those aforementioned precursors. You could try to ask instead how the energy of the fatty acid compares to the energy of the input glucose. In that case, each gram of fat yields 9kcal, while each gram of sugar yields 4kcal of energy. You might think you actually gained energy by converting to fat, specifically the fatty acid yields about 16% more energy than the glucose used to make it. This is because of all those other glucose molecules that were burned to synthesize it. So in the end, you can look at this a couple of ways. You could think of this as being essentially perfectly efficient since the body is simply making use of waste energy generated by nucleotide/amino-acid synthesis. Or you could ask about opportunity cost, I suppose. What if those NADPH were instead NADH, and shuttled to the mitochondria? That would be about 6 ATP per glucose consumed by nucleotide/amino-acid synthesis, or 18 ATP per glucose that would have been used to make fatty acids. Heck, that's about half the energy you would get from simply consuming one glucose through cellular respiration. So you could say you are taking a 1/6 increase in energy at the cost of a 1/2 increase in energy, so a loss of 22% from the energy you could have had. So ah, I guess in summary, it really depends on how you feel like running the numbers. (Conclusions from this answer were drawn from information at: NADPH, Fatty acid synthesis, Fatty acid metabolism, glucose, glycolysis, NADH, pentose phosphate pathway). Now what I haven't read far enough to figure out yet is how things change if things get unbalanced. Such as, what happens when you are eating so little you require net loss of fatty acids while still making nucleotides and amino acids. Do those NADPH go somewhere else instead? And what about when food intake is so high that NADPH requirements to form fatty acids exceed their production as a byproduct? Is there another method to make them? Does the fatty acid synthesis rate have a ceiling? Does the body just make nucleotides/amino-acids it doesn't need? I guess in both situations your accounting of the efficiency may be altered. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:39, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
So the old adage is true: to keep slim, cut down the carbs and sugar.-- (talk) 23:17, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
If the goal is weight loss, I'd see an endocrinologist. The one my pharmacist recommended helped me lose 70 lbs, 40 of which my gen prac helped me put on with bad advice. I am cleared as of today for bariatric surgery, which should leave me at ideal weight and totally alleiviate my hyper-glycemia, -lipidemia, and -tension. But this has all been done under MEDICAL advice, and I would not trust anything but a trusted, licensed specialist. If you live in NY or NJ, email me for a reference. Otherwise, shop around in your area. μηδείς (talk) 04:17, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Diet didn't work for you? Count Iblis (talk) 21:29, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
I am not sure that all people who want to lose weight would need an endocrinologist. It all depends on the amount of fat you want to lose, and how it got there. 10 lbs are not comparable to 70 lbs, and an hormonal unbalance is not comparable to being a potato coach. Hofhof (talk) 22:06, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
"Potato coach"? I like that. Yes, I was assuming that if a person were going to the trouble of posting on line that they were probably then more than 10 pounds overweight. And there are many different sorts of conditions like pre-diabetes and hypothyroidism that may only manifest in moderate obesity. In any case, seeing an endocrinologist who specializes in metabolism rather than relying on adages is a reasonable act if one is concerned with one's metabolism. μηδείς (talk) 03:53, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

July 26[edit]

Why do some plates fuse and others don't?[edit]

Why did all these plates become glued and never break up again? Many of these faults are geologically dead, right? (Kansas is not exactly known for viscous vicious Keweenawan Rift earthquakes) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:10, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

North america basement rocks.png

The tectonic status of a geographical area may be extending, thrusting or strike-slipping, see individual articles. While a geologist should never say never, there is no imminent active spreading ridge, fault line or volcanic center on the North American Plate pictured, with the exception of the earthquakes waiting to happen in California as the Pacific Plate departs north westward, see San Andreas Fault. AllBestFaith (talk) 14:44, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Also don't be so quick to dismiss mid-plate quakes. See New Madrid Earthquake. --Jayron32 15:33, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
When I was in Rolla, MO, I noticed that the earthquake report showed weekly earthquakes across Missouri, including epicenters outside the state. Most are very tiny and not reported in the news. Every once in a while, a noticeable one happens. I assumed that the nearly constant small ripples keep large earthquakes from happening, not the concept of completely dormant fault lines. (talk) 17:12, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
It should also be noted that earthquakes can be man-made; I don't know what the state of fracking and oil extraction is in the Rolla area, but in Oklahoma, petroleum extraction is closely correlated to an increase in seismic activity. See, for example, here which discusses a precipitous rise in large earthquakes in Central Oklahoma correlated to increased petroleum extraction. --Jayron32 17:15, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

What is an "at-grade road"?[edit]

I've seen the term "at-grade road" in several city articles. A search comes up with a multitude of articles that contain the phrase, but we don't have an article At-grade road, or a redirect to a relevant article that explains the term. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:09, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

An at-grade intersection is an area where two or more roadways join or cross. AllBestFaith (talk) 14:19, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Have you seen the term just "at-grade road", or was it part of a phrase like "at-grade road crossing"? We have wikt:at-grade (same meaning AllBestFaith found). DMacks (talk) 14:22, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Cape Town#Road is a fairly brief section with a remarkably high number of ocurrences the term. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:28, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
In some places, this kind of terminology is used to distinguish between types of highways or main roads: an access-controlled highway has no at-grade crossings (no level-crossings) - it has onramps and interchanges. Certain types of other fast-traffic roadways may still be called a "highway" or "expressway" - but if they have at-grade intersections, the free flow of traffic is necessarily interrupted at each place where cross-traffic can occur or where vehicles can enter the roadway.
If you've done all your driving inside the United States (or some parts of, say, Western Europe), it can be a little bit hard to culturally understand why this detail even matters, but that's because we tend to have an absolutely excellent highway system. You might take the assumption that all major highways use controlled access; and you might never have seen a mega-highway with at-grade crossings. Many other parts of the world have large highways too - but sometimes, their urban planners have simply "promoted" the various large surface streets into the main arteries for commuter traffic, without actually engineering and constructing the roadway for high traffic capacity and high velocity. So, in many Wikipedia articles about international roadway transportation, the article authors take the time to call out where the major highways that are actually just surface-streets, to distinguish them from modern freeways.
I know of a surface street that used to have 10 traffic lanes, 2 parking lanes and 20 at-grade intersections per mile. Is that the kind of road you're taking about? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:52, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
We do sometimes have such roadways in the United States, too - U.S. Route 1 in North Carolina comes to mind - and you can see our editors discussing where the route turns into an expressway.
Nimur (talk) 14:42, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
In the Cape Town article section, "at grade" is used as a contrast to "highway", which seems in keeping with the idea of it meaning "a road with at-grade intersections". DMacks (talk) 15:27, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
There is an article Intersection (road) - and the intersection is the only point at which the "at grade" description applies. Wymspen (talk) 14:58, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps you have never seen an elevated highway, like I-35 in Austin (and many of the other expressways); or the Expressways of Shanghai? Or a subterranean roadway, like the Prague tunnel complex or the Boston Big Dig? In some places, the entire roadway is above- or below- grade. Nimur (talk) 15:05, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Also, the Cross Bronx Expressway in New York, the Vine Street Expressway in Philadelphia and the Eisenhower Expressway in Chicago are all largely below grade, but they are open cuts rather than tunnels. --Jayron32 12:22, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Hence the term Grade crossing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:04, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Sometimes the main highway rises or dipd to go over/under streets that cross its path (often seen where the streets were there first) and sometimes the crossing streets rise or dip to go over/under the main highway (often seen where the highway was there first). See Underpass and Overpass. Places where a road dips below another have a tendency to become temporary swimming pools during storms, so the overpass is more common than the underpass. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:40, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
The use of this terminology appears to be US-specific. I first encountered it here on Wikipedia; it's not a common usage in the UK, even (so far as I am aware) in urban planning contexts. I think the underlying reason for this is that the precise nuance of 'grade' required is not common in UK English. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:02, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

If you mean simply for a crossing/intersection, I'm pretty sure it's not US specific. See e.g. [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] for various people referring to grade separated crossings in NZ. Also this question seemed to start due to terminology in South Africa.

Referring to the whole road as above or below grade is perhaps less common in NZ. However there is the added confusion here of the usage that started this question which appears to simply refer to whether the road is grade separated; and the usage of Nimur and Jayron32 are referring to namely whether the road is above or below the surrounding terrain. A road which is above or below the surrounding terrain could not have simple at grade crossings. But a road could be grade separated but also on level with the surrounding terrain if crossings are raised or lowered (or simply excluded other than the beginning and end).

BTW we gave an article Grade separation. Also the last external link above mentions how different terms like highway, expressway and motorway are used in NZ which I think partly enters into Nimur's point.

Nil Einne (talk) 19:45, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Tying off and cutting arteries in surgery[edit]

Books on surgery such as p37 of this 19th century work by Gerster discuss cutting through the skin and underlying tissues until blood vessels appear in the way, then ligating and cutting the vessels. In modern surgical practice "bleeders" sometimes get sealed with an electric cauterization. Are these vessels always veins, are or they sometimes arteries or smaller arterioles? Are these just little negligible unnamed arteries/arterioles or veins? If an artery is thus cut, how does the tissue downstream which it previously supplied get its oxygenated blood supply? (Edited to add: Here I clearly do not include cases of amputation or excision of the supplied tissue. A typical case would be cutting through the abdomenal wall to reach the organs in the abdomen). In the case of the brain or the heart, tissue death seems to result from a blocked artery, as if one volume of tissue is supplied by one single artery. Do arteries network downstream, unlike the nervous system, so that cutting one artery would be analogous to closing one street, where motorists would simply divert to a parallel street and reach the same destination? So how does muscle tissue downstream from an artery, even a small artery or arteriole, survive ligation of its supply? I could not find an answer in Surgery, Artery, Arterial tree or Circulatory system. This is a request for general information and certainly not a request for medical advice. Edison (talk) 17:48, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

So part of this is determining whether the arterial tree is a tree_(mathematics). I'm not really sure, but I thought you might like this schematic [15] I found, which makes the topology easier to understand. According to that diagram, it seems there are some closed loops in the arterial tree, but 1) I don't know what is meant by the white nodes and 2)I don't know how reliable the schematic is. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:03, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Shit, how do I get to fourth toe? Let's see stay on the aorta train to groin, transfer to the femoral train... Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:32, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
I left out the obvious concomitant case of arteries severed in some accident. If a patient has a spurting arterial wound on the arm, say, does the surgeon just tie off the upstream and downstream parts of the artery, or does he have to do vascular surgery to reattach the two severed ends. to avoid death of tissue downstream? Is there a size of artery below which it is ok to just tie it off? Again, not a request for advice, just a question for general scientific knowledge. Edison (talk) 18:07, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Anastomoses exist in many tissues; for example the coronary arteries often withstand single blockages, and the brain has the Circle of Willis. See here for a diagram of some important differences; note that an abrupt coronary blockage often can't be compensated for, but a blockage to a tissue with a lower energy requirement might not be as bad. I don't know about skeletal muscles but should not be surprised. It's also worth noting that angiogenesis is reactive, and can completely remodel the blood supply for tissue - for example, consider the desperate treatment a century ago for noses lost to syphilis, where the forearm was sutured to the nose for a couple of weeks, then part of the flesh separated entirely from it to form something like a nose. Wnt (talk) 00:59, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
That surgery sounds insane but also kind of awesome. SemanticMantis (talk) 13:56, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Actually it was apparently invented in the 1500s, but people tried their best to forget the technique. [16] This article also mentions a problem that cold winters would kill the nose, suggesting the angiogenesis was less than perfect - I'll wager there was no microsurgery involved! Wnt (talk) 19:59, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Cross check[edit]

You know when you are on a plane, you hear that broadcast "cross-checking". I'm having trouble finding out exactly what it is. Anyone? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 21:45, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

According to this,[17] it means one person checking that a task was done by another person. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:18, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
As long as neither person is an ice hockey player, I trust. Collect (talk) 22:29, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes. That would send the offending flight attendant to the penalty box for two minutes. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:34, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
I don't have a source but I believe this specifically refers to cross checking the doors. If one person forgets to lock the door, or if two people think it was the other person's job to do it that time, or whatever, it can cause an aborted takeoff. Also the doors have to be armed before flight and disarmed before disembarkation, I believe that refers to the emergency slides that automatically (and quite explosively) inflate if the door is opened while it is armed. Vespine (talk) 22:40, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

I posted here because I was having trouble understanding here. (Sorry to split up the discussion.) Please feel free to comment further there. Many thanks. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:32, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

For an official reference from the FAA, see: Advisory Circular 120-51e, Crew Resource Management Training, and Advisory Circular 120-71a, Standard Operating Procedures for Flight Deck Crewmembers. "Several studies of crew performance, incidents and accidents have identified inadequate flight crew monitoring and cross-checking as a problem for aviation safety. Therefore, to ensure the highest levels of safety each flight crewmember must carefully monitor the aircraft’s flight path and systems and actively cross-check the actions of other crew members."
Individual airlines or other operators may have additional procedures that exceed FAA guidance.
Nimur (talk) 23:54, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
On United Airlines, I always hear "cross check and verify straps" right before takeoff. I assume a message to flight attendants to make sure everything is tied down...or something. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:55, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Hi Nimur. I think those FFA pdfs are using cross-checking as meaning simply checking what each other is doing. As explained here, the term is about the "...emergency escape slides, which inflate automatically if the cabin doors are opened with the slides armed to deploy, are disarmed; and the cabin crew then cross-check each other to make sure the disarming has been done properly..." Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:48, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
The definition above is not how I've used the term "cross check". The definition above is "one person checking that a task was done by another person." The definition I've used is "repeating a task done by another person." As an example, suppose you have Alice and Bob. Alice checks the thingamagig. That's a check. Bob is supposed to cross-check it. According to the first definition, if he saw Alice check it, he did the cross-check. According to the definition I've used, he must also check the thingamagig. In other words, a cross-check is not checking a person, it is checking what the other person checked. (talk) 18:26, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Now that I'm prompted by the question, the exact phrasing I always hear (on airlines in South Africa) is "cabin crew, please disarm doors and cross-check". Finally I know what it means, thanks! Zunaid 18:39, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

July 28[edit]

Hearing Distance in humans.[edit]

Where would I find out, how far away a 'wanted' sound can be heard by a normal human?

(Context is that when reading about Dutch cycling rules I came across some requirement that cycle bells apparently had to be heard 25m away. I'm assuming that this would be for normal hearing under typical conditions.)

I imagine that determining how far away a specific sound can be heard is more complex than first seems. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 13:03, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

"In a normal three-dimensional setting, with a point source and point receptor, the intensity of sound waves will be attenuated according to the inverse square of the distance from the source." Measure the decibel level of the bell and using the above law calculate the distance where the decibel level is not discernible to humans. (talk) 13:37, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, but the inverse square law just implies that the attenuation obeys the format I = k * (1/d2) where I is intensity and d is the distance from the source. The problem is that k, the constant, is itself a complex function, and will be dependent on both the wavelength of the specific sound (lower frequency sounds travel farther, see for example infrasound) and the medium itself (i.e. the air properties such as density, temperature, pressure, and humidity, all of which change a lot). While bringing up the inverse square law makes it sound simple, the devil is in the details, and the details (the "k" factor here) are quite devilish. --Jayron32 18:26, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
It is indeed quite complex. This may help Decibel#Acoustics. (talk) 13:41, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
The Phon might interest you. (talk) 13:44, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Silbo_Gomero says (with reference) that that whistled language can be used to send an auditory message 5k in good conditions. SemanticMantis (talk) 13:52, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
5k? Do you mean 5 KM? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:30, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Clicking on my link would have clarified that I meant five kilometers. The more appropriate symbols would have been '5 km'. From our kilometre article: "k (pronounced /keɪ/) is occasionally used in some English-speaking countries as an alternative for the word kilometre in colloquial writing and speech." For example, I often hear runners saying "I ran five kay yesterday". SemanticMantis (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Either KM or km work. In the recent Tour de France broadcast, they showed the remaining distance alternating between miles (MI) and kilometers (KM). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:04, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
After digging around a bit for "peak frequencies", I came across this article, Psychoacoustics, which is rather interesting. DrChrissy (talk) 19:07, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
John Tyndall, in "The Science of Sound", devotes chapter 7 to things that affect the propagation of sound through the atmosphere. The motivation seems to have been fog horns and shipping safety. This was in 1875, and understanding has probably advanced some since then.--Wikimedes (talk) 21:01, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
On the subject of foghorns. They were noticeably audible because of the long duration. They made the air vacillate. Bit like what the Alphorn does, and on which one doesn't try to play the Trumpet voluntary as the sound just would not carry so well. So perceivably (subjectively) they were more perceptible . The Buncefield fire explosion in Hemel Hempstead was heard as far a way as Holland but that was probably due to an early morning atmospheric condition (an inversion) which tunnels the sound. It woke me up and I live miles and miles away. So I don't see how we can really answer the OP's question because if one sets up a long duration sign wave sound source it can travel for miles and mile depending on the atmospheric conditions.--Aspro (talk) 22:08, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Somewhat related, a former prof of mine has extensively studied the propagation of elephant calls under different atmospheric conditions. Although it's about elephants some of the basic ideas are general. Interesting stuff; an article on it is here. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:22, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Atmospheric conditions can do funny things with sound. The 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens was audible in some far away places but not audible in some closer places. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:41, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
EO dates the term "tinny" to 1877, which is shortly after the invention of the telephone.[18]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:34, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Identifing sound from batbox[edit]

I put this batbox up only a few months ago so I'm surprised to already be hearing activity inside as instructions state it may take years for bats to settle. So I'm not sure if what's inside is a bat - I haven't seen anything leave or enter. I recorded the sound made. https://vid(dot)me/xeHw

Any luck in identifying species? edit: I live in the West Midlands in the UK79.68.175.188 (talk) 17:38, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

When I click on the link I get "Server not found". Bus stop (talk) 17:45, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
replace the (dot) with a . (talk) 17:46, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
OK, thanks. Bus stop (talk) 17:49, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Sounds like a bat to me. Compare e.g. this recording [19] It's not exactly the same, but similar, search youtube for more examples. I'm not sure what specific type of box you used by most bat boxes are designed to be not attractive to e.g. birds, non-flying rodents, and other things that might like a box. It MAY take years, but I think you got lucky and had bats move in more quickly. Keep an eye out near dusk and hope to catch them leaving :D SemanticMantis (talk) 18:29, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
I have often wondered if the microphones built into smart phones have a high enough frequency response to pick up bats. If so, they would only need an app with a software 'heterodyne' to make the ultra sounds audible. Any kick-starters out there (?) as a dedicated bat heterodyne detector can cost over a £100. With one of those one can identify one's bat. Bat Detectors. Mind you, if the critter is weareing a a yellow cape, a green mask, a red jerking and tights, it is probably a Robin.--Aspro (talk) 21:23, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
"Holy mis-identification Asproman!" Another piece of technology you could use is a camera trap, sometimes called trail cameras. DrChrissy (talk) 21:33, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Lol. Images would indeed help for ID, and so would ultrasonic information. For clarity, many bat vocalizations are outside normal human hearing range, but they do plenty of chattering vocalization in the human hearing range too. Also WHAAO trail cameras and camera traps (which are different articles that perhaps should be merged, if anyone is feeling bold). SemanticMantis (talk) 21:45, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
It would (in a perfect world) be advantageous to place a web cam in the box from the out set. One can't (as you will already know) do it after they start roosting, unless one has a license permitting one to handle bats and make adjustments to their habitat. Trail cameras however, are a bit tooo slow for the amateur -me thinks. They have an in built delay which needs some knowhow to adjust. This is because if they fired immediately, all one will see is the snout of a badger or something. So a (typically) ten second delay is built in with the hope that the whole critter is in view buy the time the exposure is taken. I haven't came across one suitable for bats yet. I can't even see bats on my night scope (admittedly it is a cheap one and not a class III military spec). The image is clear but the response is too slow to for the fast moving bats to register. Maybe better to use use a infra red video camera at dusk whilst there is still some light. And anyway, if one could get a image on a Trail cam it would be so blurred that even an expert would not be able-to identify it. Lots of bats look the same. Finally, It would be interesting to know the circumstances of how the OP came by the bat box to start with. He is right that they don't usually get inhabited so quickly. The reason - I think- is that freshly cut wood releases terpenoids and esters, which to a bat, in confide confined space, must be pretty suffocating until the wood has seasoned (about two years minimum). So did the OP by chance get his hands on a old matured box?--Aspro (talk) 23:06, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps you could try contacting you local bat group for assistance? Their site contains the species found in the West Midlands. --TrogWoolley (talk) 08:59, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
That's a good point about the age of the wood, but the wood pictured in the video does not look young to me. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:41, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Would the existence gravitational waves imply the possibility of antigravitational waves?[edit]

All sources I find about the latter gravitate around sci-fi or cracks who developed anti-gravity-like devices. Hasn't the possibility being seriously considered? Hofhof (talk) 21:58, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Depends, what do you mean by "antigravitational waves"? As it passes, every gravitational wave will stretch some of space and compresses other parts of space, depending on its orientation. One can also imagine a new gravitational wave that compresses the things the first wave stretched (and vice versa), but that is just a differently polarized gravitational wave. So a gravitational wave with the opposite effects of the first wave is just a different kind of gravitational wave. Is that what you mean, or were you imagining something else by "antigravitational"? Dragons flight (talk) 22:17, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
One thing I was thinking on was what you describe. The other would simply be matter that repels matter, unless of attracting it. --Hofhof (talk) 22:24, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Matter that gravitationaly repels other matter is not theoretically prohibited by either general relativity or quantum mechanics, but there is no known form of matter with this property. The existence of gravitational waves doesn't change that, since their existence was derived from GR to begin with. The article you're looking for is negative mass. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:37, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Active noise cancellation results when an antiphase duplicate is added to the noise. The "anti noise" has the same frequency amplitude spectrum as the noise but 180 degree phase difference at each frequency. AllBestFaith (talk) 13:39, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Existence of gravitational waves, if confirmed, would raise questions like 1) what is their supporting medium such as an "aether", or have they none other than a mathematical consistency of simultaneous differential equations such as Maxwell's for electromagnetic waves; 2) do they have all the degrees of freedom that we expect in waves (amplitude, frequency, phase); and 3) are there non-linear effects (comparable to dispersion in optics or to diodes, transistors and logic gates in electronics) that we might exploit? A rich source of speculation is that sound waves have already demonstrated ability to manipulate small objects - see Acoustic tweezers - including levitating a few kilograms. However by the rules against speculation on this desk, we should confine the references we give to the First observation of gravitational waves. AllBestFaith (talk) 10:45, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
The existence you propose would allow for regionally suppressing gravity, but not "negative" gravity - repelling things. Just like noise-cancelling headphones car eliminate noise but not create negative noise. -- Q Chris (talk) 11:50, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Has anyone ever seen anti-sound waves or anti-waves on the sea or anti-light waves or have any idea what any of them would be supposed to be? I guess I could have done with something emitting anti-heat waves recently like Arnold Schwarzenegger as Mr Freeze in a Batman movie ;-) Dmcq (talk) 12:29, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
This not only would be theoretically interesting but would result in a useful commercial product. Something like a "reverse microwave" to cool things quickly. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 12:35, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
First, isn't the hypothetical graviton its own anti-particle? Second, I am not aware of anti-electromagnetic waves. While every particle is thought to have an anti-particle unless it is its own anti-particle, not every wave has an anti-wave. Third, negative gravity would require, not negative gravity waves, but negative mass, and I think that does pose technical challenges. Robert McClenon (talk) 12:48, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

July 29[edit]

Attracting a float in a pool[edit]

Suppose there are a couple of people around a float in a pool and the object is to get the float to move to you without touching it, any ideas what the best way of doing it would be? As far as I can see doing practically anything makes it move away and just doing nothing is the best strategy!, but I'm sure there must be something useful one can do. Dmcq (talk) 12:44, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

  • I would guess that if you face the float and row water behind you in a butterfly-like motion, it should bring the float closer. Intuitively you are creating fluid motion in the right direction; less intuitively, an analogy (that is probably deeply flawed anyways) is that you create a "hole" of water in front of you and a "heap" behind you, and so the "hole" will suck water in the front, going by the field lines of a dipole. Even if my reasoning is wrong, in all likelihood this has an effect, positive or negative, and reversing the motion would reverse the effect (for symmetry reasons).
This being said, throwing water directly at the float will likely push it away orders of magnitude more (compared to the amount of water displaced). Of course, any drop that you throw at the float will hit it with a velocity that pushes it away from you. It does not seem unrealistic that, as you perform a vigorous butterfly stroke, you throw enough drops towards it that it more than counteracts the "global effect" of creating a dipole-like motion. The effect of waves is also unclear - just for the lol, I will mention the Casimir effect (which likely does not apply since the damping is too strong).
The best strategy (I assume it is a game) in theory is probably to do some sort of stroke but slowly to limit the drops that you throw. That does not look very fun, and in practice, the best idea is to get the opponents to do the drop-throwing thing. I would try to find a motion that (1) can be done fast, (2) does not throw many drops toward the float. Find this, and you can impress your friends! TigraanClick here to contact me 13:44, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. I think I got a bit of motion towards me by pushing water under the float towards or past the opposite side. It is very frustrating how one can try and get a vortex near one or try dragging water back and the float just goes away. Dmcq (talk) 14:21, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
This is sort of vaguely related to the reynolds number, right? Sort of like how you can't easily catch a dandilion's pappus in the air. The problem is that vorticity at all scales prevents much laminar flow. So: I'd try messing with a 4x4' sheet of plywood or stiff plastic. Get a lot of water moving slowly, watch the vortices. Likewise, it should probably be easier to get a ping-ping ball to float toward you, compared to a full-body raft (or maybe that last bit is backwards, I'm groggy, the point is there's a length scale that goes into effective reynolds number, and different sized floats will behave differently in the same water) SemanticMantis (talk) 14:39, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Don't think it is any good trying to paddle the water in-front towards oneself with one's hands as the water will fill the void sideways. Instead, stand in front and move the water sideways (with both hands in unison) . Flotsam and jetsam will then drift towards you from both the font and rear. Kids instinctively learn to do this in the bath tub.--Aspro (talk) 14:48, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll try that next time I'm swimming :) I guess this is a bit like where people compete trying to call a dog or cat to them! Dmcq (talk) 16:27, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Is vision permanently corrected after laser eyes surgery?[edit]

Or will eyes deteriorate as normal, just from a starting point of perfect vision? (talk) 12:52, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

The latter. Laser eye surgery (e.g. LASIK) aims to correct current eyesight problems but doesn't prevent the natural aging that results in most people needing glasses later in life. Some people who have had laser surgery in the early days of the technique even choose to repeat it later in life after their eyesight deteriorates due to natural aging. However, I do know one woman who was advised that she had a thin cornea and consequently wouldn't be eligible for a second procedure. Dragons flight (talk) 13:03, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
And yet our lasik article says
For most patients, LASIK provides a permanent alternative to eyeglasses or contact lenses.[2]
although the reference given is apparently to a newspaper article, and clicking it gives an error message. Note also that it does nothing for the loss of reading ability in middle age, so someone who has had lasik will probably need reading glasses eventually. Loraof (talk) 14:58, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Anecdote is not evidence but both people I know who had LASIK now wear glasses for reading. Greglocock (talk) 15:30, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Iirc, age related eyesight issues are due to muscle decline, not changes in eye shape that result in early life eye issues. Laser surgery cannot fix muscles. For us myopic folks, it's supposed to be a permanent fix assuming your vision correction is stable (mine isn't sadly). EvergreenFir (talk) 16:06, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Right, but myopia may delay the onset of presbyopia because your eyes are set up to focus excessively close. So having corrective surgery for a myopic may make presbyopia more likely or at an earlier age. See our articles and [20] for some brief discussion of this. BTW that later ref also has some details on how many people need followup surgery and when it's less likely to succeed. (Note also that stability is one key point of difference where local regulations and specialist views will affect when the surgery will be offered.) Nil Einne (talk) 22:18, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Not having surgery will make it more likely that you can do without glasses later in life as Nil Einne points out above . Currently I don't even need a magnification glass, all I need to do is take off my glasses allowing me to see an object up close just a few centimeters from my eye. Why destroy this supervision ability using laser surgery? Also note that laser surgery will only correct your eyesight to within some tolerance, which may not be good enough e.g. for doing (naked eye) amateur astronomy. You may then need glasses of lower diopter, say -1/2 with a small cylindrical correction for optimal viewing. To actually improve the quality of vision requires using precision glasses that accurately correct for not just the diopter and cylinder, but also higher order aberrations. Carl Zeiss Vision has developed a new system to produce such precision glasses, these allow for perfect sharp vision at night when the pupil is large and vision tends to deteriorate due to these higher order aberrations. Even people who have perfect vision when measured at daytime will not have have perfect vision at night, so they can also drastically improve their vision using such glasses. Count Iblis (talk) 22:17, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Hitting walls[edit]

Does hitting walls with bare fists or wrapped in towel cloth cause any damage to wrist and other joints in long run ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:02, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Maybe, maybe not. Answering that question for a specific person and context would constitute medical advice, which we cannot give. You may be interested in reading about repetitive strain injury, sports injury, tendinitis, tendinosis, and maybe bits of sports training, punching or boxing. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:28, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
I think the basic answer is Yes:any impact will cause a certain degree of damage - though whether or not you become aware of the damage caused will depend on the strength of you hand and wrist, and how hard you actually hit the wall. Low levels of damage may have no effect that you are aware of, and should heal easily. Only if the level of damage passes a certain threshold (specific to you) might the damage be severe enough for you to suffer. Wymspen (talk) 16:52, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Caitlyn Jenner[edit]

Every so often, we see Caitlyn Jenner (Bruce Jenner) in the news. I often see photographs that look like this (more or less): [21]. I am struck by the very full head of hair. I assume that is "real hair" and not a wig; am I correct? Also, I see that Jenner is age 66. So, my question is: at that age, why is there no hint of any baldness (when he transitioned to being a woman)? And, if that's the case, doesn't whatever they do with Jenner offer the cure for male baldness? I never see transsexuals (man to woman) who are bald, even in their older age. Is this due to wigs? Or what else is going on? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:56, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

It's probably a wig, though a very well done and natural looking one. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 17:02, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Your horribly problematic language aside, male pattern baldness (and even baldness in women) is linked to testosterone levels iirc. Hormone replacement therapy trans folks often use would likely affect baldness. It would be inappropriate to speculate on Caitlyn Jenner's medical history though. EvergreenFir (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
I thought the OP's language was a little clumsy, but also showed at least some small effort to get it "right"/inoffensive. It seems you think that he did not succeed. So, in the name of edification, can you explain to us which bits are horribly problematic? Not really trying to fight or argue, just understand, thanks. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:47, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
For the record, though, many people of her age, of both genders, wear wigs; c.f. John Travolta with and without his wig. Whether Caitlyn does, or does not, wear a wig or hair extensions or something like that isn't something we should speculate on, and also is not out of the ordinary. At the high school I teach at, more than half of the female students, and a non-zero number of male students, wear some kind of hair extensions, weaves, or something similar. --Jayron32 17:31, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Google Images results would suggest that it's her own hair. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:37, 29 July 2016 (UTC)


July 24[edit]

Sine Function[edit]

Hi, is that true that is -periodic (for every )? (talk) 05:57, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes. The constant factor α makes no difference to the periodicity. —Tamfang (talk) 06:28, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Thank you! (talk) 09:07, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Order of Growth[edit]

What is the order of growth (=big-O notation, or Theta-notation), of as tends to zero? (talk) 12:05, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

O(1). In fact, . Sławomir Biały (talk) 12:22, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks :) (talk) 10:16, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Would it help to mention that in that neighborhood? —Tamfang (talk) 06:38, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

July 25[edit]

Roots of Polynomial-like Function[edit]

How should I find the roots of a function of the form , ? (where are constant coefficients) (talk) 10:33, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

It is a polynomial already only very slightly disguised. Take the least common multiple of all the i values where is non-zero, call that L and substitute into what you have to give a polynomial in y. Dmcq (talk) 10:44, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
It's a great idea! Thank you! (talk) 11:38, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

July 26[edit]

A question about indefinite integral[edit]

How to find ∫x^xdx? Litqforviki (talk) 03:10, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

This looks to be a series approximation. Here is a source that may help you. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 03:16, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
With particular limits of integration, it's an integral known as the Sophomore's dream. Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 05:12, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

What is the aspect ratio of earth?[edit]

What is the aspect ratio of earth? (talk) 20:21, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Not really a math question but I suppose it would be the ratio of earth's equatorial diameter to polar diameter, or 12756 km/ 12714 km = 1.0033. See Earth physical characteristics tables. --RDBury (talk) 20:59, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
We do have Aspect_ratio#Ellipses which makes for a decent analogy. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:12, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
You might also be interested in oblateness or roundness. See also geoid and geodesy for the general study and representation of the the Earth's precise shape. 15:12, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

July 27[edit]

Multivariate Characteristic Function[edit]

Hi, I have a somewhat peculiar question: The multivariate characteristic function is defined as . Now assuming

a) We know that all multivariate Moments of exist and are finite.
b) We have an explicit expression for for in an open convex set not including zero (which immediately means we know it in an open cone ).

Can we conclude that the moments of are given by the derivatives of ? I would claim that this is true because of the following argument, where the very first sentence is the one I am not sure about: Directional derivatives of arbitrary order satisfy as long as all are in . As contains a basis of , we therefore get the full multivariate moments of expressed in this basis in terms of derivatives of . Due to the linearity of the moments these expression in a "weird" basis can simply be linearly transformed to a standard basis expression.

Is this argument flawed? It certainly does not hold simply for any function, as the function could simply not be differentiable at 0. Can we conclude from the existence of all moments that the characteristic function must be differentiable at 0? Is this sufficient to make the "linearity argument" I am making here? -- (talk) 16:35, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

  • I am not sure about the rest, but: Can we conclude from the existence of all moments that the characteristic function must be differentiable at 0?
No. For example, take on (with f(0)=0). It is bounded and has only one singularity point, so all moments are defined (integrate on , the result is finite, and has a finite limit as epsilon goes to zero), but the function itself is not even continuous in 0. The same result holds for nonbounded intervals, for example multiply f by any C (see Smoothness) function such that yet and then fg verifies the property on . (Such functions exist; a classical exercise is to prove that is infinitely derivable, you can easily craft g from that). TigraanClick here to contact me 15:45, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for your remark, but I am afraid it might not be helpful for my problem. Your example is not a valid characteristic function because a characteristic function is always uniformly continuous. Also I am asking whether the characteristic function of a random vector is differentiable at 0, if the moments of the probability distribution of all exist. I am sorry for stating things so sloppy and not making this clear in my statement above. I could try to make a lame excuse that this sloppy jargon was commonplace among statisticians, but that would probably be an undeserved slur. -- (talk) 14:53, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Why is 2 · 335 so Close to 1017 ?[edit]

I am looking for an elegant approach to showing that Approximating 35 with 28 or 53 with 27 doesn't really seem to do the trick, for some reason (the exponents are too large, I guess). — (talk) 21:53, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Try logarithms:


You may be interested in oher such coincidences, presented in Almost integer. --CiaPan (talk) 23:19, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
For obvious reasons, I do not consider this to be an elegant approach. I'd have to add up about ten terms of the form ten more of the form and about fifteen of the form to come up with a decent approximation. Might as well do the exponentiation by repeated squaring, computing only the first three relevant digits each step of the way, starting at 34 = 81. — (talk) 02:04, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
The values agree to about one part in 103, and there are more than 3 digits in the inequation, so it seems likely that it's just the look-elsewhere effect, and there's no simpler demonstration of the agreement because there's no deeper reason for it. -- BenRG (talk) 03:16, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
there's no deeper reason for it — I'm not so sure about that part. After all, it all started with me searching for a number of the form 2a · 3b in between 2000 and 3000, then using squaring and cubing to see if by any chance I don't stumble upon something interesting, and indeed, lo and behold, the number 5281 popped up, since Now, 5280 is a rather famous example of number of the form 2a · 3b · n (with n = 55), since there are, by definition, exactly 5280 feet in an English mile. Also, it lies close to 5184 = 300012, which is a number strictly of the form 2a · 3b (i.e., n = 1). — (talk) 05:02, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
I agree with BenRG. There are a lot of possible combinations of (small) numbers and necessarily some integer near-equalities will pop up. I don't see how your method of discovery makes the case that there is a deeper mathematical reason for this relation. See also Mathematical coincidence. Gap9551 (talk) 05:12, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Never mind. Apparently, it can be conveniently proven using 39 ≈ 124 ≈ 2 · 104, where the first part of the approximation is based on the aforementioned 35 ≈ 28, and the second part on Newton's binomial series for (1 + 0.2)4 . — (talk) 05:51, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Just for general interest, a couple of similar coincidences with exponents about the same size are:
  • 2⋅518≈327
  • 533≈325⋅237
--RDBury (talk) 11:01, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
I agree completely with BenRG. If you don't find at least as many 0's or 9's in the 'coincidence' part on the right as there are digits and operations on the left hand side then really there isn't any evidence of the coincidence being anything other than random chance. Here there were three 0's on the right and six symbols on the left hand side if you include the multiply and exponentiation or four if you're really trying to be generous and forget the operations. Dmcq (talk) 15:51, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

July 29[edit]

A question related to indices[edit]

If a^x=bc , b^y=ca , c^z=ab then show that xyz=x+y+z+2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sahil shrestha (talkcontribs) 02:08, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Hint: Logarithm. Let us know if you are still stuck. -- ToE 05:08, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Idempotents generating the same principal right ideal[edit]

Does there exist a ring R with two distinct idempotents e and f generating the same principal right ideal (i.e. eR = fR)? GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 04:14, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Sequential simultaneous games[edit]

Given the existence of simultaneous games and sequential games, what (distinctive) features has their combination, a sequential simultaneous game?-- (talk) 15:52, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

See Repeated game and in particular Repeated game#Repeated prisoner's dilemma. Loraof (talk) 20:00, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Combinations between game and queuing theory[edit]

What possibilities of combining game theory and queuing theory are there?-- (talk) 15:59, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Here's a paper that approached a problem in queuing theory by formulating it as a game and applying game theoretic techniques [22]. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:29, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. How about the other perspective, of applying queuing theory techniques in game theory of multiplayer games? What is the degree of equivalence of the opposite approaches?-- (talk) 17:47, 29 July 2016 (UTC)


July 24[edit]

Kevin B Macdonald[edit]

How much truth is there to his claims in 'The culture of critique' series? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Numerologician (talkcontribs) 02:24, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Some links: Kevin B. MacDonald, The Culture of Critique series. -- ToE 02:38, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
In response to your question, I don't know that we will be able to give you more than is in The Culture of Critique series#Criticism. -- ToE 02:40, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Jason Matthews author Red Sparrow[edit]

Does Wikipedia contain an entry for Jason Matthews the author or his novel Red Sparrow? Is there a reason? (talk) 18:37, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

There is not an article for Jason Matthews or for the book. The reason is that nobody has created one yet. Based on this NYT review both could meet WP:GNG but that is just my opinion. Looks like a good project for anyone who is interested. MarnetteD|Talk 19:12, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
If you are thinking of writing such an article, IP user, please read your first article carefully. Well-written and well-sourced articles on notable subjects are always welcome, but it is not easy to write one. --ColinFine (talk) 09:24, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

What's a fair trade for Detroit? (as is, no warranties, no refunds)[edit]

This would never happen but what's a fair trade for giving Canada the contents of the city limits of Detroit with a reasonable amount of connectivity services? (they wouldn't have to build pipes/wires to old Canada or plants to feed them if they get it from new US at fair market price, if more road or rail connections to original Canada are needed we can pay half or proportional to GDPs). Could the US get any land or water for this (all of British Columbia south of the 49th parallel?) or is this actually something you couldn't give away for free (but Canada can try to improve Detroit so it's worth something in the future). They may need to keep the border crossings like Hong Kong, in this case to keep all the illegal handguns and problems out of Windsor. There's apparently a two small incorporated city cities in the middle of it so that has they have to go, too. Congratulations, you are now Canadians. (not a bad change actually) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:40, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Do you mean how much would the US have to pay Canada to take Chicago off our hands? See: Detroit bankruptcy. --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:98E7:59EE:3480:3C03 (talk) 19:46, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
So I'm assuming the part of Minnesota north of 49°N is not even a down payment? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:58, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
(Aka: Northwest Angle, presumably) --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:98E7:59EE:3480:3C03 (talk) 20:37, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Canada might agree to take Detroit if the US agreed to take Quebec (the Province, not just the city). Blueboar (talk) 22:39, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
The U.S. tried twice, once by asking nicely] and once by asking not so nicely. --Jayron32 22:50, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
You forgot the third time, which also was not so nice. -- (talk) 22:23, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
I would think Canada would have no interest in acquiring Detroit, except for one possible reason. They are quite interested in building the Gordie Howe International Bridge between Detroit and Windsor, Ontario, to supplement the existing Ambassador Bridge and Detroit-Windsor Tunnel. However, the owner of the Ambassador Bridge, Matty Maroun, is trying to block construction by buying up Detroit property and then refusing to sell it to allow for the new bridge construction. If Canadian law would expedite taking that property from him under eminent domain (or whatever they call that in Canada), then they might like that. The new bridge will presumably increase trade with Canada's largest trade partner, so it's a big deal for them. StuRat (talk) 02:30, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Well, we might be interested in certain assets, but not the whole shebang. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:13, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Saudi Arabia and US Treasury Securities[edit]

Can somebody explain why drop of treasury securities of 0,750 trillion scared Obama? I mean what consequences could such act have? And why can it cause global crisis? Such act can decrease price of securities, but only non-matured. Should US Treasury buy non-matured bonds if no one else can? (talk) 20:11, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

As I vaguely understand it, the issue is that if Saudi increases the supply of securities, then their price falls, but their return increases (because the return rate is a fixed percentage of the nominal price, whereas the actual price may be lower than nominal) and so to compete for funds, the US Treasury has to increase the returns it offers on new securities. The fix for this, were one required, is probably quantitative easing, which is pretty much printing money in exchange for bonds - something that seems to be less harmful than once it would have been in these times of low inflation & low interest rates. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:25, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, to try to explain it a bit more thoroughly, the important thing to remember is that Treasury securities are loans to the U.S. government. The interest rate, or yield, the U.S. government pays on those loans is determined by the bond market. The yield on a bond moves inversely to its price. This is just a fancy way of restating the law of supply and demand; the fewer the people who want to lend to you, the more you will have to pay them in interest. So, if you own a bunch of Treasuries and want to try to stick it to the U.S. government for whatever reason, you can sell them all on the bond market. A larger supply of bonds on the market means their price goes down and their yield goes up. A big fire sale of Treasuries will also inevitably cause short-term volatility in the Treasury market, as prices and yields will move significantly. Treasuries are a cornerstone of the world financial system, so this has the potential to cause disruption beyond just making it harder for the U.S. government to borrow. -- (talk) 02:13, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
A larger supply of bonds on the market means their price goes down and their yield goes up.
Ok. According Tentative Auction Schedule of U.S. Treasury Securities next auction of 30-Year BOND will be on Thursday, August 11, 2016 . If US government will see huge amount of securities flooded the market, why cannot it just cancel auction and wait while all redundant securities will be sold. (talk) 08:27, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Because the U.S. government is running a deficit, which means it needs to borrow money to operate. If it can't borrow money, it can't pay its bills, and uh-oh, the world economy just collapsed. This is why people were making a big deal about the "debt ceiling" a while ago. -- (talk) 09:33, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Government must have some buffer. It can take money through mechanisms different from issuing bonds. E.g. by IMF credit tranches, selling gold, selling securities of other countries. Cannot it? And when situation with bonds will become stable, government can issue bonds again (with usual interest rate) and take gold back. (talk) 10:59, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
IMF loans have many strings attached and are generally designed for poor countries. A desperation sale of assets like gold reserves would result in the seller getting a lot less than they could by gradually selling them. Also the country may not wish to sell off said assets for political reasons. And in the specific case of the U.S., I don't think the U.S. government has any substantial holdings of other countries' debt. I should have pointed out earlier that there's no reason for a government with monetary sovereignty, like the U.S., to default. If no one wants to lend to the government, the central bank can just print money. Of course this can lead to high inflation. All this stuff about threatened sales of Treasuries and such is really about politics, not finance. Governments hint at threats to extract concessions. It's how the game of international politics is played. The implied threat behind countries selling off Treasuries is not really about trying to bankrupt the U.S. government; it's about potentially knocking the U.S. dollar off its pedestal as the predominant reserve currency, which in turn could diminish the U.S.'s global influence. -- (talk) 04:41, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Question about Qin_Shi_Huang[edit]

When people found his tomb did they find a mummy and was there a legend about the tomb being cursed? I ask because he was featured in The_Mummy:_Tomb_of_the_Dragon_Emperor he is depicted as a mummy. (talk) 21:10, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

No, that was Bruce Forsyth. Muffled Pocketed 22:32, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
As far as is known, the tomb has never been unsealed since he was interred. See Qin Shi Huang#Tomb.--Jayron32 22:43, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

July 25[edit]

"Ah" surnames[edit]

Where do the surnames in use in Hawaii beginning with Ah (Ah Choi, Ahnee, Ah Quin, etc.) come from? Cilantrohead (talk) 00:54, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

see Chinese in Samoa#Names. As that section mentions, it also applies to Chinese-Hawaiian names.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 01:03, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
(edit conflict)
Wiktionary's listing of Hawaiian given names describes Ah as a "Cantonese informal prefix", presumably borrowed into Hawaiian usage as a result of Chinese immigration. But I don't know what "Cantonese informal prefix" means. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:09, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
It's used across different varieties of Chinese, not just Cantonese. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 14:58, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
"Ah" is often used as a prefix in informal situations when addressing or possibly referring to someone indicating familiarity or closeness. Normally in front of the given name or sometimes the kinship term. If the person has a generation name, ah is used in front of the personal part and not the generation part AFAIK. I think it's the same if the person has a double character given name even if the first part is not a generation name, it's normally the final character. It's not generally used in front of the surname, probably because there's a contradiction in referring to the person by the surname and the use of the prefix. There's some discussion here [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] here which includes discussion how it was used in various Westernised contexts. Nil Einne (talk) 04:29, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
"Ah so!" --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:58E2:3708:C2A3:B874 (talk) 18:08, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Hey, thanks, everyone! Cilantrohead (talk) 04:52, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

July 26[edit]

What is the sounding (and written) range of contrabass clarinet?[edit]

What is the sounding (and written) range of contrabass clarinet? Different sites are giving different ranges. (talk) 00:00, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

According to our article (Contrabass clarinet)→
Range of Bb contrabass clarinet + LA(3) at 440 Hz
It also mentions that there are two types "EE♭ (aka:contra-alto) contrabass clarinet" & "BB♭ contrabass clarinet". --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:807B:66FA:B5EC:A602 (talk) 00:46, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Parkinson's shuffle[edit]

I believe there is a particular word which describes the failure to lift the feet by people with Parkinson's disease. I think it may begin with C but I don't remember it. Can anybody help please? Kittybrewster 11:10, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Anything in Parkinsonian gait? --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:13, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Nothing. Kittybrewster 07:26, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Breakdown of victims of Islamic extremism, by category[edit]

Excuse the inflammatory nature of this question, but it is, IMHO, a fair one.

When a Muslim kills in the name of their religion (something I accept only a minority of Muslims do) the victim by definition falls into one of three categories. My guess is that they rank in this order:

  1. Fellow Muslims, whose version of Islam differs or is perceived to differ from that of the killer, or whose behaviour the killer sees as deserving death in Islam's eyes (shia vs sunni being perhaps the most common, but also religious vs secularised, fundamentalist vs moderate, "honour killings" motivated by Islamic beliefs, etc)
  2. "Infidels", or, (to quote the indictment against Abu Hamza al-Masri), "persons not of the Islamic faith" (Westerners, Christians, Hindus, Yazidis, etc) - but excluding Jews
  3. Jews (but excluding those killed in Israel or the West Bank by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict)

I exclude direct local victims of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as it has dynamics of its own, with the two peoples forced to engage with each other on a daily basis. Please DO however include Jews killed by Muslims (be they arab or non-arab or even Palestinian) outside Israel and the Palestinian territories. Please also DO include Israelis killed in Israel by Hizballah or other non-Palestinian arabs, who unlike the Palestinians, DO have the option of avoiding contact with Jews.

Can anyone point me to sources which would give me a breakdown on the number of victims which fall into each of these three distinct groups (intra-Muslim, "Infidels" and Jews), either in terms of raw numbers or percentages? Eliyohub (talk) 14:30, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

The OP chooses to guess that victims of extremist murder are to be ranked in terms of some extremist's own pseudo-religious rhetoric. I suggest that someone close the whole question to prevent arguments proceeding on these unproductive categories. AllBestFaith (talk) 15:03, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree it should be closed, not to prevent arguments proceeding but simply because it is (as the OP himself notes) an inflammatory question that serves no useful purpose, even if answerable. --Viennese Waltz 15:18, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
  • This seems to be a source. --Jayron32 15:37, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Historically, Jews and Christians were granted special status above other "infidels", in that they were considered to be "people of the book", that is, since all 3 are Abrahamic religions. However, recent fighting over Palestine has lowered the status of Jews in many Muslim eyes. For Christians, you'd need to go back to the Crusades to find a real reason for hatred, but leaders of terrorist organizations know they need to be seen as attacking "the big guys" to get recruits, so claim the Crusades are ongoing. StuRat (talk) 02:15, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Presumptive nominee - convention as formality[edit]

When is the last time the party's nominee for U.S. president was not known going into the convention? ―Mandruss  16:26, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

I would say Democratic Party presidential primaries, 1968 would be the last example of this. RickinBaltimore (talk) 16:29, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
There was also the closely contested 1980 Democratic National Convention, where Kennedy tried (and failed) to change rules to allow delegates committed to Carter released from their commitments. While the vote actually went off as planned, there was some possibility of a contested convention had Kennedy gotten the rule changes he sought. --Jayron32 17:11, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
According to Brokered_convention#Conventions_close_to_being_contested, it was 1984 for the Democrats and 1976 for the Republicans. The previous section of the article has the last brokered conventions for both parties in 1952.--Wikimedes (talk) 06:55, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

British political familial connections[edit]

Former Conservative minister Virginia Bottomley is certainly well-connected by birth and marriage. I want to clarify two potential connections. Her father was William John Garnett (1921-1997), industrial relations campaigner. Was he related to David Garnett ("Bunny", 1892-1981, of the Bloomsbury Group) and his long line of illustrious forefathers? That seems a tenuous link. The second query, however, is more pointed: various sources state that one of her cousins is Julian Hunt, Baron Hunt of Chesterton, father of Tristram Hunt, MP, both of them Labour politicians. Is Bottomley related to these Hunts? Other sources claim that she is cousin to Jeremy Hunt, the Tory health minister who survived last month's shuffle. Is there any reliable statement - for example, an interview with any of them in a newspaper of record - to the effect that they are related, and how? There are an awful lot of unreliable sources, and I suspect they are circularly reporting our articles. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 21:39, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

According to this website, which is generally pretty reliable, John Garnett's father, James Clerk Maxwell Garnett, also had a daughter Pauline Garnett, who married Roland Hunt, and Pauline and Roland were Lord Hunt of Chesterton's parents. That would make Lady Bottomley of Nettlestone a first cousin of Lord Hunt of Chesterton and a first cousin once removed of Tristram Hunt. There doesn't seem to be any obvious link documented there between her and either David Garnett or Jeremy Hunt. Proteus (Talk) 10:36, 27 July 2016 (UTC)


So Erdogan or the other one in USA: who is the good guy, and who is the bad guy? I cant fathom from the news Im reading.-- (talk) 23:47, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Have you read our article on the 2016 Turkish coup d'état attempt? Reducing the matter to that of the "good/bad guy" is beyond the remit of the ref desk. — Lomn 00:14, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Define "good guy" and "bad guy". The one is an ally, the other is living in the US. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:10, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Are we talking of the official British perspective? Where government policy is friendly to Erdogan, but our newly appointed Foreign Secretary (of an interesting Turkish ancestry himself) publicly penned a deeply insulting limerick against Erdogan? Erdogan, who does not take kindly to journalists seen as criticising him. It is indeed complicated.
The Ataturk state of Turkey was resolutely secular. Erdogan has recently pushed this back and encouraged Islamification of the Turkish political society and government. His dealings with and oil buying from ISIS have been questioned, particularly by those Russians who like to question things with bombing strikes. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:30, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Regarding the political philosophy that has driven Turkish politics prior to recent decades, see Kemalism, an overtly secular philosophy. While led by a cleric, the Gülen movement is still in many ways aligned to Kemalism, and is diametrically opposed to the Islamist and authoritarian reforms of the Erdogan government. --Jayron32 12:18, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Another possibility is that they're both bad. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend (e.g. Stalin). Clarityfiend (talk) 10:32, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

July 27[edit]

Rape Conviction Question[edit]

If a person who is accused of rape wins in criminal court but loses in civil court, are this person's employers and potential employers going to be capable of finding out about this person's rape conviction in civil court? Futurist110 (talk) 02:51, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

There probably won't be anything to prevent their finding out about it, but there's no civil version of the sex offender registry if that's what you have in mind. —Tamfang (talk) 04:30, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Depending on the particular jurisdiction, there is usually an option in a civil court case to apply for an order to prevent publication of the outcome. It would be up to the court to decide about that. With no such order the press and other media would be free to publicise the result and name the person involved. There would be no automatic notification process, nor would a civil court judgement appear if there were any checks on criminal records. Wymspen (talk) 09:05, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Is a person in civil court found guilty of rape? A conviction is for a crime, and that is handled in criminal court. What is handled in civil court is not at the same threshold of law and evidence and is more for monetary purposes. Sir Joseph (talk) 14:26, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Several things spring to mind here:
  1. A civil finding of liability is not a criminal conviction. As others have said, it will not show up on a criminal record check, nor will the individual be on the sex offenders register.
  2. In the UK, I could imagine that if the Disclosure and Barring Service got wind of the court's finding, they may be entitled to use the information to put in place the relevant measures to refuse the individual clearance to work with children or vulnerable adults. However, only organizations who employ people to work with these groups would have access to such decisions.
  3. If the case was reported in the media, there's every chance an employer or potential employer could find the information, whether by reading the media, or a simple google search of the person's name bringing up a link to the media article. What Whympsn says about the power of courts to make non-publication orders is true. However the only times I could imagine this being done was at the request of the plaintiff (the rape victim) in a case where naming the defendant would enable identification of the victim (such as an incest case). I could possibly also imagine a court suppressing publication if the defendant was a minor at the time of the rape. But in general, the media would otherwise be free to report the court's finding, with the potential result of an employer or potential employer stumbling on this information.
  4. Note that any court judgement that a person owes another person money will show up in a Credit report, meaning if the person applies for credit (a mortgage, loan, or credit card, for example) the institution he is applying to will be able to see this information, which would definitely include the sum of damages awarded. However, I don't know if this includes why the person was ordered to pay ("rape"), or if it would simply be a record that the person was ordered by court X on date Y to pay a debt in the sum of $x (whatever sum the victim-plaintiff was awarded by the court). So yes, being found civilly liable for rape could cause problems in getting any sort of credit or loan, particularly if the sum of damages awarded was large, but potentially even if it was small. As far as the bank or other institution sees it, someone had to take this guy to court to force him to pay up, which obviously reflects badly on his credit-worthiness. (BTW this applies to any "debt judgement" by a court that the debtor owes the money, and the creditor has had to resort to legal action to force him to pay up - regardless if it's an unpaid bill for goods or services, or a damages award for rape or anything else).
Hope this ramble helps. Others feel free to correct any errors I have made. Eliyohub (talk) 15:05, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
I felt free to correct your inconsistent indentation. —Tamfang (talk) 06:42, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Assuming that you are referring to practice in the United States, the court judgment will be a matter of public record, so employers will be able to learn about it. (As Sir Joseph notes, this would not be a conviction, but simply a finding of civil liability for the sexual assault, presumably resulting in monetary damages and perhaps a court order to stay away from the plaintiff.) Settlements, however, can be made confidential, although if the settlement were entered into after the court case was filed, employers would be able to tell that there was some kind of settlement. John M Baker (talk) 15:04, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
They would be able to learn about it if they went trawling through court records. However, whilst many employers routinely do criminal record checks, how many would in fact go searching for civil judgements? Credit rating agencies do routinely collect info about civil judgements, but would the average employer be likely to actually look for or stumble across what would otherwise presumably be rather obscure information? Eliyohub (talk) 15:10, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
It would depend how obscure it was. In the US in particular, it doesn't seem that rare that these sort of things show up as publicly accessible and indexed on search engines. And I'm fairly sure searching someone's name on the internet isn't exactly rare nowadays as part of the employment process. Note also that credit reports are commonly a part of the employment process in the US although I'm not sure how much info about civil judgements shows up in the info provided to putative employers [29] [30] [31]. This video is IMO particularly illustrative of credit reports and associated agencies (like background check agencies) in the US [32]. Nil Einne (talk) 15:33, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
  • I have filled out plenty of job applications in the US, both with major corporations and the government. None have ever asked if I have had a civil judgment against me. I would suggest that if someone is aware of such a question, they post it. There are employers who ask to do credit checks. But that is not the same thing. μηδείς (talk) 01:55, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
True, but that doesn't answer the question as to whether the judgement will come up on your credit record. In the UK, it definitely can. See [33], [34], or [35]. Note that from what I can see, the credit record does not show why it was decided that you owe the money - simply how much you were ordered to pay, when the order was made, and whether the judgement has been "satisfied" (translation: you have in fact paid up the money you owed). Though the credit record does seem to note the court case serial number, so if an employer did want to delve deeper, they could look up details about the specific case (though this may vary in difficulty). Also, if the court orders you to pay and you do in fact pay promptly (within 30 days), it may not end up on the record. However, if the creditor / plaintiff is forced to take further action to enforce payment of the court order, it will show. From a credit record perspective, you have at this point defaulted on a debt. The fact that you may have been ordered to pay the victim / plaintiff millions you don't have is irrelevant. Not sure how things work in the US or other countries, though I wouldn't be surprised if they were similar. Eliyohub (talk) 06:54, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Nordic Royal Orders[edit]


I'm currently trying to do a page on my great grandfather who was a politician and a Knight first class of "Order of the Dannebrog" and "Order of Vasa". However, I can't publish the article without finding any digital reference to this being the case. I've spent two hours trying to find a complete list of recipients of these titles online, but have so far been unsuccessful. Do you know if the two respective orders keep any online archives? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Runi Oregaard (talkcontribs) 12:46, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia has articles about the Danish Order of the Dannebrog and Swedish Order of Vasa. I added a heading to the question. AllBestFaith (talk) 14:10, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Also note that sources do not have to be online they can be from printed sources as long as they are considered reliable. MilborneOne (talk) 19:35, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Being a recipient of those two awards may not be sufficient to satisfy the notability requirements. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:09, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
But the reason for being a recipient of those awards might be sufficient grounds for notability, if there was adequate press coverage. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:42, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Traditional Chinese shoes[edit]


What's the name of these traditional Chinese shoes? They seem to be quite stereotypical appearing in various martial art films as well. Thanx.-- (talk) 12:47, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

AllBestFaith (talk) 14:21, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Aren't they just spats? Muffled Pocketed 17:41, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
They are not spats, they are shoes... --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 18:25, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
In modern Chinese the traditional style is usually just called "cloth shoes", 布鞋, which are differentiated from "modern" shoes by the sole, which is stitched from many layers of cloth. The variety with a thicker upper, stuffed with cotton, for winter wear might be called "cotton shoes", 棉鞋. The type with a soft sole and so suitable for tai chi or martial arts might be marketed as "tai chi shoes" or "(martial arts) training shoes", but they are regarded as a sub-type of "cloth shoes". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 18:25, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

July 28[edit]

What happened to homes owned by single loners who were conscripted into the military during WW2?[edit]

As I understand it, during World War 2 in the UK most able bodied men were conscripted into the military. It is reasonable to assume that some of those men owned their own homes, and of those who did own their own house some would have lived in it on their own without a family. Lets assume such a man who owned his own home but had no wife or children, no living relatives, and all his friends (if he had any) were also conscripted into the military at the same time he was. What happened to his house? What if he couldn't arrange for anyone to look after it for him? Who paid the bills? Who paid his mortgage? Did it just sit empty while he was at war so he had a home to come back to at the end, or did the bailiffs repossess it? Seems a bit mean to risk life and limb for your country only for the state to come take your house away. (talk) 00:18, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Weren't the wages paid to servicemen comparable to those paid in civilian employment? There would be no outgoings, unlike today when you may have to pay double council tax if your home is left unoccupied. Out of his military salary the soldier would have had to pay nothing for food, accommodation, fuel etc. (talk) 00:33, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
No: "A soldier in the Somerset Light Infantry recalled that when he was conscripted in 1939, his pay was two shillings (10 pence) per day, or 14 shillings per week (70 pence), but that his civilian job had paid him £6 (120 shillings per week)", [36] Alansplodge (talk) 12:02, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
I can't speak for the UK, but the United States has the Servicemembers Civil Relief Act, which provides servicemen and their property with various protections against civil actions, including foreclosure and eviction, while in active service. A version of this act under a different name was passed during the American Civil War, and the act under this name was in effect during World War I. It was recreated at the start of World War II and has been in effect ever since. I can't find if the UK has a similar law. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:59, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Some information about wartime rent control in History of rent control in England and Wales but I couldn't find anything else. Alansplodge (talk) 20:06, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
But... I have found some partly legible snippets on Google Books concerning the Possession of Mortgaged Land (Emergency Provisions) Act 1939 which seems to address this issue, but exactly how remains unclear to me. Alansplodge (talk) 20:22, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

July 29[edit]

Any US Presidents who were shot and survived?[edit]

There were some news articles about John Hinckley, who shot Ronald Reagan, being released from a mental hospital after all these years. This makes me wonder if there were any other US Presidents who were shot and didn't die from their wounds (lots of war veterans were presidents, so maybe it happened on the battlefield?).--Captain Breakfast (talk) 03:50, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

See List of United States presidential assassination attempts and plots#Assassination attempts.
John Flammang Schrank shot Theodore Roosevelt "once in the chest with a .38 caliber revolver. The 50-page text of his campaign speech folded over twice in Roosevelt's breast pocket and a metal glasses case slowed the bullet, saving his life. Schrank was immediately disarmed, captured and might have been lynched had Roosevelt not shouted for Schrank to remain unharmed. After discerning he was not mortally wounded, Roosevelt finished his speech with the bullet still lodged in his chest. Afterwards, he went to a nearby hospital, where the bullet was found between his ribs. Doctors decided it would be too risky to remove it, so the bullet remained in Roosevelt's body for the rest of his life. He spent two weeks recuperating before returning to the campaign trail. Despite his tenacity, Roosevelt ultimately lost his bid for reelection."
-- ToE 04:52, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Is it true that if he went right away he paradoxically would've died? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 08:43, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
At that point (1912) he was a former president. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:21, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Maybe you are just being smart, but I am not limiting the question to sitting presidents. Past/future presidents ok too (thus my battlefield comment earlier).--Captain Breakfast (talk) 09:24, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
I believe George Bush Sr. was wounded at least once during WWII. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:51, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Ronald Reagan is pretty obvious. Muffled Pocketed 10:54, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
You might want to look up the definition of the word "other" and re-read the OP's initial post. --Jayron32 11:03, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
  • James Monroe had been shot and nearly died from a severed artery during the Revolutionary War. Rutherford B. Hayes was shot during the Civil War, injuring his arm pretty severely. --Jayron32 11:10, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
You mean since the 1840 election. Note: this was reply to a comment that was later deleted. olderwiser 13:08, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Some of the uncanny similarities between the deaths of Lincoln and Kennedy are listed at Lincoln-Kennedy coincidences urban legend. Here are some more:
Lincoln Kennedy
Republican convention held Chicago '60 Chicago '60
Secretary's name Lincoln
Secretary's warning Do not go to theater Do not go to Dallas
Concessionaire Joseph "Peanuts John" Burroughs Butch Burroughs
Assassin detained by Luther B Baker Marion L Baker
Also, prior to being shot, Lincoln was in Monroe, Maryland. Prior to being shot, Kennedy was in Marilyn Monroe... --Jayron32 15:35, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Not all of those are real but there's more coincidences like year of entering Congress to balance it out Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:58, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Google Images have some entries claiming that John Alexander Kennedy was connected with Lincoln in some way. They were contemporaries, but that was about it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:54, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Looking for an essay[edit]

I had to read an excellent essay about how to write concisely in my English class in college. It's called "Gutter" (if I remember correctly). Now, I'm trying to find it to reference to a friend, but I can't seem to find it anywhere. Can anyone give me a link to it please? I can get access to almost all database through my university access. (talk) 06:06, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

"Sir... CBE"[edit]

In the article Order of the British Empire it says that just GBEs and KBE/DBEs are entitled "Sir", not CBEs. I remember reading years ago Sir Peter Ustinov's funny description by what bureaucratic procedures he became a knight, and he is usually referred to as "Sir..." on the continent as well. Is there just one letter wrong and, thus, should it read KBE instead of CBE in the article Peter Ustinov ? Or is the article Order of the British Empire not precise in that point, and "Sir Peter, CBE" is correct? Thanks a lot in advance for your help (talk) 11:13, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

In his article he's also listed as Knight Bachelor. Mikenorton (talk) 11:19, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
As a Knight Bachelor (1990) he gets to be called Sir, but doesn't get any letter after his name. His CBE dates from 1975. It's the same with Bruce Forsyth and Elton John. -- zzuuzz (talk) 11:46, 29 July 2016 (UTC)


July 23[edit]


Does the French suffix –age, as in language and marriage and outrage, have a Latin form, or is it of later coinage? —Tamfang (talk) 00:35, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

See wikt:-age#Etymology_3 (and wikt:langage and wikt:mariage for spelling).
Wavelength (talk) 00:45, 23 July 2016 (UTC) and 00:50, 23 July 2016 (UTC) and 01:00, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Why shouldn't I use English words to illustrate a French morpheme? —Tamfang (talk) 05:45, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

-aticus, (-aticum/-atica) as in French fromage "cheese" < Latin, formaticum "formed" μηδείς (talk) 03:26, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Frottage is a good word. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 09:30, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
What's that, @JackofOz:? Like a cheese & coffee milkshake? μηδείς (talk) 00:16, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Sounds ghastly. Your taste, as always, is in unmentionable places.  :) -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 01:04, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. —Tamfang (talk) 05:45, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Advance Australia Fair[edit]

How should the title of the Australian national anthem, "Advance Australia Fair", be parsed?

  1. Is "fair" a post-modifier, or is it a noun?
  2. Is the title as a whole supposed to be understood as:
  • Advance[,] Australia fair
  • Advance(transitive verb) (Australia fair)(object)
  • [May] (Australia fair) advance
or should it be understood some other way? -- (talk) 16:19, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
1. It's an adjective, not a noun.
2. In the antepenultimate line of each verse, at least ("In history's page, let every stage / Advance Australia Fair", "With courage let us all combine / To Advance Australia Fair"), it seems to be transitive verb + object.
Deor (talk) 19:11, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
I would have thought your third meaning for the title, except as a direct second-person imperative rather than your third-person imperative. The third-person imperative subjunctive seems like it might be a little more available if the "advance" came after rather than before "Australia fair". --Trovatore (talk) 19:50, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
  • "Anecdote alert" alert. I first learned "Advance Australia Fair" as a kid growing up in Canberra. I wasn't sure what some of the words meant, but - going by the context of "We've golden soil and wealth for toil" - I was sure that "Our home is girt by sea" referred to "girt", a uniquely Australian kind of soil, which was obviously comprised of a mixture of grit and dirt.--Shirt58 (talk) 10:05, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Awesome story, thanks! I'm sure I was already grown when I first figured out how to parse whose broad stripes and bright stars/thro' the perilous fight/o'er the ramparts we watched/were so gallantly streaming. Specifically, I always thought we were watching the stripes and stars rather than the ramparts, and then the last line seems to kind of hang there. But that's not as much fun as yours. --Trovatore (talk) 20:20, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
I had similar difficulties with O Canada, specifically the line about (old wording) true patriot love in all thy sons command. Is the love in the command of the sons, and we have a missing apostrophe? No, turns out that Canada is being instructed to command love in her sons. That's not confusing at all. --Trovatore (talk) 22:01, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Is appearance of white hair in early age belongs to psychological troubles?[edit]

[Question moved to Science Desk. Tevildo (talk) 23:05, 23 July 2016 (UTC)]

July 24[edit]

'College' for ages 3–18?[edit]

How atypical is the use of 'college' in the name of this British school: St. Anthony's College, Mijas? I used to think that 'college' in English always referred to 'tertiary education', even in British English. -- (talk) 12:13, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

It's unusual but not unique, there are plenty of "colleges" who are "schools". Personally I've only really come across them as private, fee-paying schools. See Dulwich College as an example. --TammyMoet (talk) 12:42, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
And it is the standard term for 6th form (16-18 years old), which is still secondary. From College#United_Kingdom:
In the United Kingdom, "college" can refer to either sixth form in the context of secondary education, or a constituent part of a university in the context of higher education.
Carbon Caryatid (talk) 14:23, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
You forgot further education colleges which offer mainly vocational courses to those who have left school. I agree with User:TammyMoet that British schools that call themselves colleges are generally fee-paying independent schools: see Brighton College, Trent College, Ardingly College, Ratcliffe College and of course Eton College (although the last is 14-18 only). Alansplodge (talk) 14:41, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
I agree, the article is repetitive and less than ideal.Carbon Caryatid (talk) 13:48, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, some preparatory schools call themselves "colleges". I've found Kew College which only takes pupils up to the age of 11. Thincat (talk) 15:02, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Further concurrence with Tammy and Alan: my own secondary (11-18) school was/is called Kent College, and was a 'public' school in being part of the Headmasters' Conference, though a significant proportion of its pupils received free tuition through the government's Direct Grant system. {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 18:29, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
See Collegium. A collegium was an association under ancient Roman law, roughly equivalent to a modern non-profit corporation. It would seem that originally the word "college" referred to the collegium or association of priests that operated a school, whether or not within a university. Vestiges of this usage are found with the College of Cardinals, which is the highest-ranking Catholic college of priests, and in the US Electoral College. In modern usage, it normally but not always refers to higher education. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:10, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Hence the term "colleague".[37]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:33, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

French to English Wiki article creation[edit]

Is there a wikiproject that works on translating French wiki article to English or place to put translation requests?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 15:57, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English.Wavelength (talk) 16:41, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
That one is more for articles that are already on but aren't in English. There is a WikiProject for this, but I don't know how active it is: Wikipedia:WikiProject Intertranswiki/French. There is also Wikipedia:Translation for other options on how to get an article translated. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:42, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Category:Wikipedia translation contains Category:Articles needing translation from French Wikipedia.
Wavelength (talk) 17:51, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

English Intensifiers[edit]

non-relevant μηδείς (talk) 03:33, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

► Non-speculative reference information follows. See reference desk for context:

The use of degree (of intensifier) is more of a segregation of type than a scale of variation. Confer three degrees of a burn -- while a burn can be categorized in one of three degrees, there is variability within degrees. This dissertation might be of interest: "Intensifiers in current English" (PDF).  See also: Osgood's semantic differential. -- preceding comment added by an editor who believes that IPs are people too 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:98E7:59EE:3480:3C03 (talk) 18:47, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
If you are going to be contrary, the OP (I don't know or care whether he's an IP WP:COMPETENCE) has asked for us ("do we see") to speculate on the future development of English. He also seems to have confused adjective, most of which have comparatives and superlatives; with intensifiers, which do not. There is no sequence supe, super, supest; or rathe, rather, rathest.
So whatever you like, the OP should follow the guidelines and express himself clearly, or even say, "am I using the right words here" and give an example of what he means. μηδείς (talk) 03:33, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

When examining past scholarly discourse regarding problems defining categories of intensive qualifiers, as the linked source does, one can make projections (or "speculation", if you prefer) regarding limitation of intensifiers to three degrees. For example, the source refers to a study by Sidney Greenbaum concerning restrictions or co-occurrences of intensifiers with verbs, leading to the (speculative) possibility of a "heightened" degree.

And frankly, unilaterally shutting down the OP's query as a "request for speculation" had indeed put this responder in a contrary mood as reflected in the tone of the reply. --[dynamic IP]:2606:A000:4C0C:E200:30F1:64EA:E6A4:7C2C (talk) 06:49, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Parenthetical phrases[edit]

When is a parenthetical phrase not parenthetical?

Parenthesis (rhetoric) says: "The parenthesis could be left out and still form grammatically correct text".

Consider this sentence I wrote recently:

  • The inordinate delay meant that large numbers of people from distant parts, who would not otherwise have considered making the journey, did so.

Leaving out the bit enclosed in commas leaves us with:

  • The inordinate delay meant that large numbers of people from distant parts did so.

A reader would now be asking: "Did what?", because the sense of the sentence relies absolutely on the bit between the commas, but that can allegedly be left out without risk. I mean, it's still a valid sentence, but it's lacking some important information to make it make sense. So is this really parenthetical after all? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:01, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

It is clearly not parenthetical at all - it contains information without which the main clause does not make sense. Wymspen (talk) 12:42, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
There's nothing ungrammatical about the sentence after the stuff between the commas is removed, so that stuff is indeed parenthetical (it "could be left out and still form grammatically correct text") in the syntactic sense. I think that you (and Wymspen) are confusing grammar with logic, Jack. Deor (talk) 20:04, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Right, so "grammatically correct text" is the sole criterion. Good to have that clarified. Thanks. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 09:20, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
I would dispute whether the reduced phrase is grammatical. The problem is that the expression "did so" is not used in a grammatically correct manner - it requires the prior statement of the action to which it refers. It is surely difficult to call a sentence "grammatical" if it doesn't actually make sense. Wymspen (talk) 14:51, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
That gets us into "colorless green ideas sleep furiously" territory. Such sentences are semantically nonsensical, but grammatically correct. That's what I was getting confused about in my question. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:46, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
I'd consider the phrase between the commas in your example parenthetical. Grammarians can tell me I'm wrong, but I'd focus on the meaning and not base the determination on whether mechanically deleting the phrase would result in a grammatical sentence. In your example, "so" is a pronoun. It just so happens that the antecedent is found in the parenthetical phrase. Your example is equivalent in meaning to:
The inordinate delay meant that large numbers of people from distant parts, who would not otherwise have considered making the journey, did [make the journey].
If you delete the phrase in the middle, what you have left is:
The inordinate delay meant that large numbers of people from distant parts [...] did [make the journey].
That is a grammatical and perfectly understandable sentence. -- (talk) 04:42, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Actually, "so" is an adverb - it qualifies the verb "do". Wymspen (talk) 07:43, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
"So" can be an adverb, but not in example sentence we're talking about here. In that sentence, it functions as a pronoun. See sense 4 of this dictionary entry. -- (talk) 11:02, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

July 25[edit]

Sand Fire[edit]

We have an article called Sand Fire. That is the name of the fire according to reliable sources. Isn't one of the understandings of that word combination that sand is burning? Shouldn't we correct that misunderstanding, in the article? At this source I find "Fighting the fire -- named for the area's Sand Canyon -- is a challenge, said Nathan Judy, fire information officer..." I am arguing that that language should be included. I think this is a question involving language. Bus stop (talk) 04:44, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

"Sand Fire" means "Sand Canyon Fire" in about the same way that "pommes frites" means "pommes de terre frites".
Wavelength (talk) 04:57, 25 July 2016 (UTC) and 04:59, 25 July 2016 (UTC) and 05:23, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Duckduckgo has search results for "sand canyon fire".
Wavelength (talk) 05:28, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
WP:MOSNAME says that the name of the article should be the name used in the majority of reliable sources. --ColinFine (talk) 09:34, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
The name of the article can be addressed but that isn't what my question is about. My question concerns advising the reader that sand is not on fire in this event. Bus stop (talk) 10:12, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Doesn't the lead paragraph make this perfectly clear? If not, then how would you suggest that we improve it? Dbfirs 14:34, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, it is fine, now. Bus stop (talk) 14:36, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm glad the article was improved, but I think we can assume that our readers will know a few non-culturally-specific facts about the world, such as the fact that sand does not burn. I don't think the article was ever "misleading" about that. --Trovatore (talk) 20:05, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I thought that sand burned. Or at least I considered that possibility. I first saw news stories about it on Google News a couple of days ago. I wondered if Wikipedia had an article on the topic. I began looking at news stories to clear up what I found to be a slight question in my mind. It crossed my mind that perhaps these were Oil sands. I may not be typical of all readers. But, on the assumption that I am typical of all readers, I wished the article to speak to those with a similar question in their minds. Bus stop (talk) 22:50, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I just "researched" it: oil sands can't burn.[38] Bus stop (talk) 22:55, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

How to Layout[edit]

Someone advised me to give a bit of other characters information (in the book that I'm writing) so that an idea is gained of individuals, e.g., who and how they are, and what they are about… I've done it the following way:

Name of the person:

• Date of Birth:

• Birthplace:

• Citizen of:

• _________ (Single/Married)

• Mother/Father of ___ children: ___ Male and ___ Female

I can't put more than this at the moment, I won't see them in the near future either so, what do you guys say? Is it satisfying/sufficient? Shall I put it in a sentence or do it like the way I stated...?

Apostle (talk) 04:56, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

You mean, instead of sentences, you'll just fill in a form? The idea of giving information I think is to personalize characters. I think the reader tends to develop feelings for the characters when their date of birth, birthplace, citizenship, marital status, and the children they may have, are written about in a way that draws the reader into the story. Bus stop (talk) 05:06, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand the question. The information you listed is rather superficial; unless the information is in some way important to the story, what you have so far is rather uninteresting. I'd be more interested in knowing the relationships among the characters, their personalities, their moralities and worldviews, what they want, what drives them to do what they do, their flaws, their secrets, etc. If you want to give the characters some concreteness, maybe you can describe their physiques, appearance, ethnic backgrounds, cultural identities, family backgrounds, occupations, interests, and things like that. -- (talk) 05:41, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Okay, thank you both. Face-sad.svg -- Apostle (talk) 04:02, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
You might conceivably find this helpful: [39]Tamfang (talk) 05:58, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

"It hasn't almost changed", or "it almost hasn't changed": Are both correct?[edit] (talk) 07:10, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Neither sounds right. Can we have the preceding sentences for context? (talk) 09:21, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Both are grammatical. Both are meaningful. Neither sounds like something that would often be said. What is your intended meaning? --ColinFine (talk) 09:36, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I might use "it almost hasn't changed", say in the sentence, "Seeing how unarmed blacks are shot by police officers, I am reminded of the days of lynching, it almost hasn't changed at all since then."
But "it hasn't almost changed" could mean it changed a lot or not at all, so isn't very useful. However, I am reminded of the BR English "I don't half fancy her", which has the same problem, potentially meaning he fancies her in any amount other than "half", but was used anyway. StuRat (talk) 14:34, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
  • "It hasn't almost changed; it has changed completely."
"It almost hasn't changed, except for the new paint job."
Perfectly grammatical phrases in different contexts with different meanings. μηδείς (talk) 22:55, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Can the expression "surrender you" mean: "give you up", and not only "extradite you"?[edit] (talk) 07:14, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes. See "Surrender Dorothy". Tevildo (talk) 08:16, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I think extradition is a form of giving you up. Bus stop (talk) 14:31, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Extradition has a specific meaning; essentially the transfer (of a person) from one legal authority to another (usually foreign) one. 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:58E2:3708:C2A3:B874 (talk) 18:16, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

They'll knock me for six[edit]

In Crime and Punishment, part 2 chapter 1, Raskolnikov says "they'll knock me for six." This is the Penguin Classics translation by David McDuff. Can anyone with access to and understanding of the original Russian give me a literal translation of what Raskolnikov actually says there? This is an idiom from cricket, and I'd be surprised if Dostoevsky was familiar with the game, so it seems more likely that it's an idiomatic translation by McDuff. Thanks, --Viennese Waltz 14:06, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Could you point out where exactly in s:Crime and Punishment/Part II/Chapter I? Then it will be easy to find it in s:ru:Преступление и наказание (Достоевский)/Часть II/Глава I. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 17:12, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Wikisource has that paragraph as "No, it's too much for me . . ." he thought. His legs shook. "From fear," he muttered. His head swam and ached with fever. "It's a trick! They want to decoy me there and confound me over everything," he mused, as he went out on to the stairs—"the worst of it is I'm almost light-headed . . . I may blurt out something stupid . . ."
The Penguin text is at Naraht (talk) 17:21, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. This begs the question of why a respected translator like David McDuff would use a clearly anachronistic phrase like "they'll knock me for six", which Raskolnikov would never have uttered, in preference to something more straightforward and believable like "they'll confound me over everything." --Viennese Waltz 06:47, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
No straight answer, and that particular idiom isn't mentioned, but you might enjoy a discussion of McDuff's boldness, fidelity and transparency in comparison with that by Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky as well as Constance Garnett in this article: "Raskolnikov Says the Darndest Things" by Richard Lourie (a translator as well). From the misleading use of "glasnost" (misleading since the 1980s) to "drinking up her stockings" ... ---Sluzzelin talk 07:36, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for that interesting link. I like the fact that I've identified another Britishism that, as Lourie notes, would inevitably baffle the Americans. --Viennese Waltz 08:11, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
It works both ways though; I once bought an American translation of the Iliad which had one of the characters trying to end a dispute between the Greek commanders by shouting "Enough already!". I have never heard anybody use the phrase ""they'll confound me over everything" and I expect I never will. It might be a literal translation but it's not credible that anybody would say it, in the UK at any rate. BTW, the cricket analogy can't be an anachronism, since the sport of cricket has barely changed since the 19th century, although I agree that it would have been unknown in Russia. Alansplodge (talk) 16:50, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
The original passage is «Нет, не по силам…» подумалось ему. Ноги его дрожали. «От страху», — пробормотал он про себя. Голова кружилась и болела от жару. «Это хитрость! Это они хотят заманить меня хитростью и вдруг сбить на всем, — продолжал он про себя, выходя на лестницу. — Скверно то, что я почти в бреду… я могу соврать какую-нибудь глупость…» -- no idiom there, either cricket or non-cricket, so they'll confound me over everything is a fairly accurate translation. -- (talk) 10:00, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
It may be accurate, but a bad translation, as it's not a phrase used in English in any country that I'm aware of. Translators, unless providing some kind of linear service for academics, need to make their texts accurate but also read well. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:05, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Modern Russians don't speak the same language as Dostoevsky characters, same as modern Englishmen don't speak the same language as Dickens characters. It's only fair to translate dated language into dated language. -- (talk) 13:14, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm still confused. As an American, I'd've guessed "knocked me for six" had to do with craps. Is this a real term in cricket? μηδείς (talk) 00:19, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Why are you confused? I said it was a term in cricket in my original post. Why do you have to question that, thereby implying that I don't know what I'm talking about? --Viennese Waltz 12:05, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
It's a home run. A ground-rule double is worth 4, I think. --Trovatore (talk) 00:41, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
I don't think they call it a "home run" in cricket, although it's conceptually similar. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:47, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
It's not a home run; there's no such thing in cricket. If a batsman hits the ball and it travels over the outer perimeter boundary line of the ground without touching the ground, he scores six runs for his team and six runs attributed to his personal tally. If he and his partner batsman have started to run between wickets (to score runs), they usually stop because there is no point running any more. [They may continue running if there's any doubt about whether the umpire will rule 'Six' - example, where the ball falls very close to the boundary line]. Such a ball is said to have been hit or 'knocked' for six. This is the maximum score that a batsman can achieve from any one ball bowled to him. 'Knocked me for a six' is derived from this cricket expression, and means that the speaker is astonished, taken aback, dumbfounded, speechless. The 'me' here derives from the bowler's perspective - he is taken aback that six runs have been scored from a ball that he hoped would get the batsman out. The expression can also be used where the speaker is laid low by an abrupt medical condition - 'Side effects of that medicine knocked me for a six'. It's infrequently heard these days, and mostly used by the gray haired and older set. Akld guy (talk) 03:38, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
I was imprecise. It's the direct analogue of an (outside-the-park) home run, just as four is the direct analogue of a ground-rule double. I thought my audience would figure it out. --Trovatore (talk) 03:44, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Not really. A home run results in the batter rejoining the bench, no? Whereas in cricket the two batsmen continue batting after a six. Cricket is a game of wearing down the batsmen. They can be out there batting for hours, and even days. It's tough on them. Akld guy (talk) 03:50, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
That's a general difference between cricket and baseball, so it doesn't refute the analogy. If you know both games, I really don't think I have to spell the analogy out; it should be clear. --Trovatore (talk) 03:55, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Just a general point about an assertion made above, in that This is the maximum score that a batsman can achieve from any one ball bowled to him. is completely incorrect. Batsmen can theoretically score as many runs as they like from any one ball, if they keep running from crease to crease and the fielding side fail to run them out. Overthrows may also contribute to this, and that very article states that There have been at least four instances in Test cricket of eight runs being scored off a single ball. It is not analagous to a home run at all, the differences are stark, so please be careful when attempting to describe subtle aspects of intricate sports that are unfamiliar – we are not here to mislead our readers, neither deliberately nor through ignorance. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:12, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

You are correct. I meant that, having hit a six, the batsmen can score no more runs from that ball. Akld guy (talk) 21:29, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
It absolutely is analogous to a home run. Just as in baseball, you gain an advantage by batting the ball outside the field of play on the fly — six runs in cricket, one plus however many are on base in baseball. Just as in baseball, you gain an advantage by batting the ball outside the field of play on a hop — four runs in cricket, second base in baseball, plus two bases for anyone on base (so a runner on second or third will score). That is all it takes to be "analogous". Not everything else has to match up; of course there are just inherent differences between the games. --Trovatore (talk) 11:24, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
No, it's completely tenuous and unhelpful. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:00, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
The similarity is that the ball gets knocked out of the playing field and runs are scored. How tenuous or unhelpful that commonality is, is a matter of opinion. But in any case, it's not called a "home run" in cricket. Right? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:21, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Of course it's not. I was speaking elliptically and imprecisely, taking for granted that people would understand anyway. A metaphor is like a simile. --Trovatore (talk) 22:05, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
And cricket is often played on an ellipse-shaped field. But maybe you knew that. :) I would have said a six is "analogous to" a home run in baseball, just as a four is "analogous to" a ground rule double, thus hopefully avoiding the wrath of the cricket nitpickers. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:09, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
It maybe useful to take a look here [40]. Edmund Patrickconfer 10:38, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

You can see quite a few sixes in this video of Ben Stokes playing a quite stunningly violent innings a few months back. Amongst the sixes, there's a crowd-pleaser at about 3m 50s --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:46, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Actually this video (30 years old, but I remember it like it was yesterday) is even better, given you can see a reference on-screen to the term we're discussing and see a mightily arrogant example of six-hitting. And that was in the days when sixes in Test cricket were very rare. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:49, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
In American English, I think the closest phrase that we would use is "knock someone for a loop": "They knocked me for a loop." —Stephen (talk) 16:21, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
  • " "Anecdote alert" alert" alert. When I was a young actor destined to be a star of stage and screen, I played Treplyov in a production of The Seagull. We used what I now guess was a British English translation. The actress who played Zarechnaya bought a translation into American English, and took it to one of the production meetings; whatever the Russian for "it doesn't matter" was given as "no matter". All of us completely naked, as was the custom then, we sat around reading our parts from that translation in American accents, just for the fun of it. --Shirt58 (talk) 10:54, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Bedspreads, quilts, duvets, duvet covers, comforters, comforter covers, coverlets, etc.[edit]

I am confused by all these terms. Some are presumably synonyms and others are not. I am guessing they vary by if they hang down the side of the bed, if they go all the way to the top of the bed, if they are machine washable, and whether you sleep with them over you or they are purely decorative, but I don't know all the details. If the meaning varies, I would like the US English meanings.

I found this article [41] that describes the difference between a comforter and a duvet/duvet cover. Apparently the comforter is one machine-washable piece while the duvet and cover is like a pillow and pillowcase, where you only wash the cover. I'm not sure if either is supposed to hang down the sides of the bed. But Sears sells "comforter covers", which seems at odds with that definition: [42]. StuRat (talk) 14:21, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

This may be helpful. As may This. As may This (with pictures!). I found these and many more using Google and typing the phrase "bedding glossary" into it. It's also important to remember that language is not always universal and precise; what something is called in one dialect may be slightly different in others, so you may not always get the same exact definition from every source. --Jayron32 16:53, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
What confuses me is the word "counterpane", as far as I can tell it just means "a kind of quilt/duvet with old fashioned decorations", and yet much seems to be made in some quarters in the UK about the progress from counterpanes to duvets. What, really, is so different about counterpanes to modern quilts apart from having a name that sounds like it should be part of a window? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 18:09, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
To add to the confusion: WP's Counterpane (bedding) is a redirect to quilt -- but dictionaries define it as a bedspread which WP redirects to Bedding. See also Wiktionary: counterpane. --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:58E2:3708:C2A3:B874 (talk) 18:39, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
And then there is the eiderdown. I grew up (in a house with no central heating) sleeping under a sheet, a blanket, an eiderdown and a bedspread. Some people I knew might have called the eiderdown a quilt, and the bedspread a counterpane. There were no duvets in the UK then (when they first appeared they were called continental quilts) - and a comforter was a warm scarf. Wymspen (talk) 20:01, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Agree with that. An eiderdown is a quilt (the same as those you see in American films) and a bedspread or counterpane is a sort of cover for all the underlying layers, generally made from a soft but heavy cotton fabric called candlewick which you can still buy. Confusingly, I believe some people also called a very thin type of quilt "a counterpane". I first saw a "continental quilt" (duvet) in the 1980s. Alansplodge (talk) 21:30, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
The name "eiderdown" implies it's full of duck feathers. The words "pane" and "spread" imply no filling at all. (talk) 21:48, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
They were originally filled with the down feathers of the common eider duck (harvested from the nests after the ducklings hatched}. That is now a very expensive luxury item - but the name became generic regardless of the actual filling. Wymspen (talk) 08:26, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
So what's the difference between an eiderdown and a modern duvet then? They both seem to be bags of feathers (or synthetic equivalent)? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:14, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
You might find this article enlightening. In the photo, at the foot of the bed is a traditional eiderdown, which has small pockets of down and which doesn't overhang the sides of the bed. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:41, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
The picture is helpful, thanks. So is the eiderdown always half-length (as in it only covers the bottom half of the bed)? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:05, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
That picture is misleading - the eiderdown was for warmth, and was full length. The main difference is that an eiderdown was placed on top of other bedding - a sheet and usually a blanket or two as well. A duvet is meant to go next to the sleeper's body, with no other bedding. Wymspen (talk) 11:55, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Answering the question from a reasonably experienced personal English English perspective:
  • bedspread — a (thin) cover placed over the rest of whatever's on top of a bed; usually decorative and folded down when the bed is in use; [43]
  • quilt — a quilted covering, placed over other bedding to keep the bed's occupant warm (duvets were called continental quilts when they first appeared in the UK); [44]
  • duvet — a stuffed non-quilted bed covering, usually sewn closed, nearly always the only bed covering used; [45]
  • duvet cover — a casing in which to insert a duvet, similar to pillowcases for pillows but with fasteners or buttons to keep the duvet inside;
  • comforter — unrecognised bedding term; [46]
  • comforter cover — unrecognised bedding term;
  • coverlet — another word for bedspread; [[47]
  • counterpane — another word for bedspread; [[48]
Bazza (talk) 11:04, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
From a US English perspective, "duvet" is a highfalutin word for "comforter". Neverthless, here is a useful source:
--2606:A000:4C0C:E200:FDA1:29DB:947:2B62 (talk) 00:38, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Boys' Basketball[edit]

Hi again, I've got another possessive question! Normally, I believe if you're talking about a basketball tournament for boys, it'd be "the boys' basketball tournament". (Similarly it'd be "the men's tournament" not "the men tournament".) But I'm frequently seeing it without the possessive on article titles and "official websites".

With Indiana High School Boys Basketball Tournament and New York State Public High School Athletic Association Boys Basketball Championships is the use of Boys correct or should it be Boys' ? Should the official name be preserved as a proper name? - Reidgreg (talk) 19:54, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

This is one of my peeves. I think it's mostly laziness. People can't remember where to put the apostrophe (before or after the s), so they just leave it out. It's sort of the flip side of the greengrocers' apostrophe.
This may be on the way to becoming standard. I think we should try to stop that from happening. --Trovatore (talk) 19:59, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
How can we stop it? -Can't find article for the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Apostrophy's. --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:1060:FB70:9FFD:8F0F (talk) 20:32, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
WP:WHAAOE. See Apostrophe Protection Society. Tevildo (talk) 08:16, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

--Trovatore (talk) 06:24, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

I think it's just evolution of usage. Check out the history of Boys Town, Nebraska. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:50, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm going to guess that this one is thanks to a venerable, but truly idiotic, policy of the United States Board on Geographic Names. They incredibly moronically decided quite some time ago, indeed in the 19th century if I'm not mistaken, that possessive apostrophes would be left off of geographic names in general, on the grounds that natural features should not be taken as "belonging" to an individual.
There is nothing whatsoever to be said in favor of this, of course; it has led to such abominations as "Pikes Peak", and in any case it reflects a total misunderstanding of the English possessive, which sometimes refers to a property relationship, but often does not (and in the cases in question usually does not). --Trovatore (talk) 07:53, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Or Popeyes Chicken. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:51, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Or Boys & Girls Clubs of America. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:15, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Obviously, neither of those is the (direct, anyway) result of the malign dominion of the USBGN. But Boys Town probably is. --Trovatore (talk) 22:26, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
In "Boys Basketball Tournament", 'boys' is not a plural, but a possessive. If it were a men's league, it would read "Mens Basketball Tournament". They have simply left the apostrophe off, for esthetic reasons. It happens frequently in official names, as well as in headlines and signage: LADIES ROOM, MENS ROOM. In standard text, the apostrophe would probably be added back in. This is not a written rule, just a styles policy that some companies would choose to follow. —Stephen (talk) 22:21, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Of course it's plural, and also possessive. If it were single and possessive, with the apostrophe left off, it'd be "Mans Room" or "Ladys Room". -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:43, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
It can be plural or singular as the context requires. Plurality is not affected by the loss of the apostrophe. When the apostrophe is dropped, the affected word remains a possessive. —Stephen (talk) 13:27, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
I've already agreed that it's a possessive (albeit an apostrophe-free one). A possessive word is either possessive singular or possessive plural. In the particular examples we're talking about, they're all possessive plural. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:41, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
The apostrophe-less "possessives" in expressions like "Boys Basketball Tournament" are usually construed as attributive usages of (plural) nouns rather than as possessives per se. See Noun adjunct#English, particularly: "Noun adjuncts were traditionally mostly singular (e.g. 'trouser press') except when there were lexical restrictions (e.g. 'arms race'), but there is a recent trend towards more use of plural ones. Many of these can also be and/or were originally interpreted and spelled as plural possessives (e.g. 'chemicals' agency', 'writers' conference', 'Rangers' hockey game'), but they are now often written without the apostrophe, although decisions on when to do so require editorial judgment." Deor (talk) 14:19, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Darn, so there is some validity to it. I wouldn't mind this so much except that it's influencing high-school students to use that spelling in less-appropriate contexts.
Thanks for the always great and insightful help, and a couple much-needed laughs as well! - Reidgreg (talk) 16:51, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Deor's explanation is the one I would have given, had not dinner intervened. I'll just point out that the use of an apostrophe to mark an ess as possessive is a modern typesetter's convention that wasn't used in Old English or Chaucer, where, for example, we see "shires" instead of "shire's" on line 15 of the prologue of the Canterbury Tales. English is unique among the PIE languages with this convention. μηδείς (talk) 00:48, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

July 26[edit]

Constructed language[edit]

How could a newly-invented constructed language be known to public as fast as possible? Litqforviki (talk) 03:01, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Call it something with "Star Wars" or "Star Trek". Or even better these days call it "PokéSpeech". And then promote it via facebook, twitter and all that crap. Realwackel (talk) 05:33, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Make it integral to a contest with a prize of a gazillion bitcoins. —Tamfang (talk) 05:54, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Seize power in a large country and enforce it as the new national language. Wymspen (talk) 07:26, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Start a religion or cult that mandates its use -- Q Chris (talk) 07:49, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

So, sorry I was talking about, is there a more, I say, actual way?

Apologies, sometimes we are a bit quick to give facetious answers. First of all I would manage your expectations. Many people have come up with constructed languages which they think are the best and everyone will want to learn. This is extremely unlikely to happen. Reasonable expectations would be one of:
  • to have a language which is of interest to enthusiasts
  • to have a private language if a group of friends and relatives are also intereted
  • For an author to have a fictional language that is realistic, with fans possibly using some phrases and greetings, and a few maybe learning
  • If the language is particularly interesting in some way maybe have a small internet following, with forums using the language.
The first thing I would suggest is to join something like the language creation society. They will be able to comment on your language and offer help. They will also be able to let you know if it really has some special or unique features. -- Q Chris (talk) 09:03, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
  • What, you thought my answer was facetious? —Tamfang (talk) 05:56, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Snotty State[edit]

I'm working on translating the article Mei Quong Tart into Chinese. It refers to his tea room / restaurant in the Queen Victoria Building as the 'snotty state'. What do the two words actually mean in this context? I don't think it means it was covered in snot, literally or figuratively... --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:59, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Article vandalism introduced in this edit. Should read "Elite Hall". --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:06, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Ah, thanks! --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:21, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Strong English accent[edit]

Hello. As a French greco-roman wrestling fan, I was watching at the previous wrestling competition in the 2015 European Games, whose video is available in Youtube and I was wondering what type of English accent has the commentator here, from 02:07:26 :

Because of his accent, I have a bit trouble to understand what he says. I'm curious : thanks to his accent, have you an idea on which country did he come from ? I would say that he had a Scottish accent but I'm not sure.

Thank you for your answer. --Scryb (talk) 13:24, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

He sounds Australian, or possibly New Zealander, to me. Definitely not Scottish. --Viennese Waltz 13:26, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Sounds like New Zealand to me (based on my very scientific criteria of "sounds like the guys from Flight of the Conchords" and "does not sound like The Wiggles" actually I have no idea). Apparently the European Games were carried on Sky Sports in New Zealand and Seven Network in Australia, but checking their sports commentators doesn't bring up anything useful. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:30, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Australian here, almost definitely a New Zealander. Hack (talk) 14:55, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
The video is not available in NZ, so unable to confirm. Akld guy (talk) 20:25, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Listen for the sound in words like "pen" "egg" "ten" - the closer it comes to the "i" of "it" the more certain you can be of dealing with a Kiwi. Conversely, "it" and "shit" tend toward "ut" and "shut" (talk) 10:18, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Hence Aussies' favourite take-down of Kiwis: "fush and chups". -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:00, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
"Horse and chops". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:42, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

July 27[edit]

English grammar question[edit]

Are both of the following grammatical? Number two sounds off to me, but I'm not a native speaker so I'm not sure about it.

1. "The dinner options are steak and fish. You may not like steak or fish, but those are your choices."

2. "The dinner options are steak and fish. You may not like steak or fish, but that's your choice."

Crudiv1 (talk) 04:27, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

They're both grammatical, but with slightly different emphases. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:01, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
In #1, choices refers to the options (steak and fish); in #2, choice refers to the act of selecting. Either can be correct. --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:FDA1:29DB:947:2B62 (talk) 06:46, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Just to elaborate on the above, I understand #1 to mean that the selection is limited to the either steak or fish; there's no third option. #2 means that it's up to you to choose whether you prefer steak or fish. Note: I'm not a native speaker either. — Kpalion(talk) 08:16, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
My English teacher would have gone with 2. She would always correct "You have two choices..." with "No, you have one choice. You have two options". -- Q Chris (talk) 12:23, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Agreed. However, the whole structure strikes me as slightly unidiomatic. I can't imagine anyone actually speaking or writing like that. AlexTiefling (talk) 13:03, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
I would say that both of these are both grammatical and idiomatic. Neither is something a waiter is likely to say, but I can imagine such a remark occurring as two people are responding to an invitation to a wedding or banquet and must indicate an entrée selection. However, note that #2 is ambiguous, because the final clause can mean either "it is your choice not to like steak or fish" or "the choice you have is between steak and fish." John M Baker (talk) 14:35, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Agree with John Baker, but the ambiguity of sentence two creates a jarring tone. Matt Deres (talk) 16:39, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
I don't know how it is in the States, but in Britain telephone switchboards are automated, and a female voice will probably say
Choose one of the following options.
Either one is grammatically OK, although if a waiter said it, I would say, "You forget the third choice: Getting up and leavin. See ya." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:31, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

July 28[edit]

Hath or have?[edit]

There was a discussion recently Special:Diff/724452502#How numerate is the general population? about whether

  • Thirty days hath September, April, June and November or
  • Thirty days have September, April, June and November

is the grammatically correct version. I came across these paragraphs in the first prayer book of Edward VI (1549):

To every month, as concerning this purpose, shall be appointed just xxx days.

And because January and March hath one day above the said number, and February, which is placed between them both, hath only xxvii days, February shall borrow of either of the months of January and March one day, and so the Psalter which shall be read in February, must be begun the last day of January and ended the first day of March.

And whereas May, July, August, October and December hath xxxi days apiece, it is ordered that the same Psalms shall be read the last day of the said month[s], which were read the day before: so that the Psalter may be begun again the first day of the next months ensuing.

The square brackets indicate variant versions (you would be lucky to come across two editions printed exactly the same) and note the use of "either" where we would use "both" (the modern meaning apparently dates from the thirteenth century) and "hath" where we would use "have". Was the use of singulars instead of plurals a feature of Old English? (talk) 00:48, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Essay on beggars — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 01:27, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

I learnt it with ″hath″. There's no problem about plurals—the sentence is inverted. ″September″ is the subject.Djbcjk (talk) 05:32, 28 July 2016 (UTC)djbcjk

Then what are "April, June, and November"? --Trovatore (talk) 07:45, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
They are separated from the main clause by a verb phrase that has been elided. "September hath thirty days. And so do April, June, and November." You may not like it, but that's poetry for you. As for the plural form, it would be more accurate to state that 120 days HAVE September, April, June, and November. (talk) 10:21, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

At the time the verse was written, "hath" was a common verb. And, oddly enough, September has not always had thirty days in America. In the British Americas, the calendar change had a September with only 19 days - and in French Canada, October 1710 on had extra days added (31 and 32 day months!), of all things, only to lose them in September 1752. February was the last February 29 not to occur on a leap year, in fact (though only in French Canada). And we shall not forget the decimal calendar of the French Revolution. Collect (talk) 11:52, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

"Archaic third person singular present indicative."[49]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:27, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
See February 30 in relation to Sweden. The most ill-conceived and mis-managed process in world history, imo. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:58, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

I learnt it as "30 days has September. The article, which has several versions, is at Thirty days hath September. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 16:59, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Meaning of "tinny" (applied to sounds)[edit]

In my discussions with acquaintances about jingles played by ice cream trucks, I sometimes hear the word "tinny" and expressions of dislike for the music played. In my efforts to understand more precisely what is disliked, I have searched in various online dictionaries for definitions of "tinny".

  1. "Having a displeasingly thin, metallic sound"
  2. "Having a thin metallic sound"
  3. "(of a sound) high, thin, and metallic"
  4. "thin and metallic in sound; lacking resonance"
  5. "a tinny sound is high and unpleasant"
  6. "having a high and unpleasant sound"; "thin in tone"
  7. "Tinny sound is of low quality or like metal being hit"
  8. "Pertaining to a thin, unpleasant sound recalling that of tin being rapped"
  9. "An example of a tinny sound is the high pitched sound of an out of tune string instrument." [sic]
  10. "having a metallic taste or sound"
  11. "lacking in timbre or resonance; sounding thin or twangy"
  12. "lacking in timbre or resonance; sounding thin or twangy"
  13. ––––
  14. "Tinny sound is of low quality or like metal being hit"
  15. ––––
  16. "Pertaining to, abounding with, or resembling, tin"
  17. [nonfunctional link]
  18. "thin and metallic in sound; lacking resonance"
  19. "Pertaining to a thin, unpleasant sound recalling that of tin being rapped"
  20. "Abounding with tin"
  21. "thin and metallic in sound; lacking resonance"
  22. "thin and metallic in sound; lacking resonance"
  23. [nonfunctional link]
  24. "thin and metallic in sound; lacking resonance"
  25. "Having a thin metallic sound"; "(of a sound) high, thin, and metallic"; "lacking in timbre or resonance"; "thin and metallic in sound; lacking resonance"
  26. [a discussion of Australian and New Zealand usage, but not involving sounds]

I find the expression "lacking in resonance" to be strange, because all sounds by their nature must involve some resonance. If it means "having very little resonance", then what can be said about sounds that are very low in pitch and having very little resonance? Also, what can be said about the recent prevalence of clanging (or clanking) low-pitch percussive sounds (obtrusively) accompanying speech or singing?
Wavelength (talk) 18:41, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

"Lacking" might in this context be a synonym for "deficient": i.e. with less than desireable, not "none". A sound that is very low in pitch and has very little resonance would best be described as a "thud" (think of rock band bass drums, which are often deadened with an internal pillow or similar). I haven't noticed the recent "clanging" you describe, except perhaps in the theme tune of Futurama, which is not particularly recent but which features tubular bells that to my ear sound a little muted – could this be an influence? {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 22:50, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Tinny is the opposite of woody. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:24, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
I associate the word "tinny" with very early phonographs and radios, which did a very poor job of reproducing bass sounds, and a mediocre but somewhat better job of reproducing higher pitched sounds. There are museums where you can hear these century old devices play, and after you listen for a while, the word "tinny" and the definitions above seems quite appropriate. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 02:45, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
You don't have to go to a museum. Here's a Billy Murray number that was a big hit in its day, according to Groucho Marx:[50]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:14, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
For people who want to enjoy relatively high-pitched sounds without having to hear bass sounds (whether the sounds heard are in speech, or in vocal music, or in instrumental music; and whether the sounds are heard in a live performance, or in a live broadcast, or in a recording), do you consider the sounds heard to be "tinny" because of the absence of bass sounds?
Wavelength (talk) 03:29, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Which of the following recordings do you perceive to have "tinny" sounds? Do you perceive them as being "tinny" because of their relatively high pitch, or do you do so because of another factor?
Wavelength (talk) 06:01, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
"Tinny" is descriptive not of pitch but of timbre. A sound that is full and rich in tone, no matter how high-pitched, would not be described as "tinny". Imagine hearing a piece of music played on an expensive hi-fi system. Then imagine hearing the same piece of music played on a pair of small cheap computer speakers. The cheap speakers would make it sound tinnier than the expensive hi-fi. Then imagine hearing it through someone else's headphones - that's even tinnier. You're losing the full richness of frequencies that make up the sound, and only hearing the higher frequencies. That's what people mean by "tinny". --Nicknack009 (talk) 06:42, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
If sounds with a wide range of frequencies are perceived to be "full" and "rich", then I suppose that sounds without bass frequencies can be compared to decaffeinated coffee, de-alcoholized beer, sugar-free chewing gum, unsalted popcorn, filleted fish, boneless chicken, lactose-free milk, and gluten-free food.
Wavelength (talk) 19:15, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
I think a pure note will never be "tinny", no matter how high. I'm going to speculate that tinny notes are the ones with a lot of power in their higher overtones. That's why it sounds tinny when you overdrive a microphone; you cut off the top and bottom of the sine wave, and that results in a Fourier expansion with lots of needed terms.
But it's probably not that simple. For example, barbershop singing relies on constructive interference of the overtones to produce the characteristic "ring", and that's considered a good thing. --Trovatore (talk) 19:46, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
I assume the expression derives from the tin can telephone, perhaps the ultimate tinny experience, beloved of my younger days.--Shantavira|feed me 07:20, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
That's what I'd always imagined, too. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:04, July 29, 2016 (UTC)

July 29[edit]

Pronunciation of "harass" & "harassment"[edit]

Which syllable is accented in the verb "harass" and the noun "harassment", and according to which national variants of English? We're expats from the USA advising our foreign-born offspring on consistent pronunciation, and I don't recall this being in our active vocabulary in the early 1980s when we left. -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:07, 29 July 2016 (UTC)""

UK and US. Are you interested in any other particular variants? HenryFlower 13:56, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
(edit conflict) In my younger days, this was something of a shibboleth in my circle. People who accented the second syllable exposed themselves to ridicule; the favored pronunciation was similar to that of the name Harris. I notice that most dictionaries these days (and probably even then) list the /həˈræs/ pronunciation first, though. Deor (talk) 13:59, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, as in the teacher saying, "harass" and a student saying, "Her WHAT???" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:27, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Personal observation here: This is one of those transitions I saw in my lifetime; I was in High School during the Anita Hill hearings, and IIRC, it was around that time that the word underwent a transition in predominant pronunciation. There was even some discussion around the correct pronunciation as it was in the news ALL THE TIME in America. Most people before the hearings said "HAIR-iss-ment", but it was around that time that the predominant pronunciation transitioned to "her-ASS-ment". There was even a rude joke about the pronunciation difference (It's HAIR-iss-ment unless you grab her ass, then it's her-ASS-ment) which gave us 14-year old boys a bit of a chuckle. --Jayron32 17:37, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Holy shit. I just did a google search for this. I found this as the second link. It's an SMDB discussion on this topic. From 2000, a year before Wikipedia existed, and 6 years before I joined Wikipedia. I thought I was experiencing deja-vu. I am looking for sources, though, to actually support my assertions... --Jayron32 17:40, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Here is a Baltimore Sun article about the exact issue with "harassment" around the Anita Hill hearings as I noted above. So there's a source. It even says, and I quote "...Anita Hill, said "HAR-ass-ment," the more traditional pronunciation." So in 1994, at least, the HAR-ass pronunciation was considered "traditional". According to this more modern account, and several modern dictionaries, the transition has swung to har-ASS as more common. --Jayron32 17:47, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Here is a book source from 1999/2005 which also specifically discusses the Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas hearings as the specific time of the transition. Whether the event in America was a cause of it, or merely highlighted a trend which was already ongoing, I don't know, but we've got several sources which pin down the 1980s-1990s when the pronunciation of the word in America made the transition. That source notes that the official NBC prounciation guide had "hu-RASS" as preferred since 1984, but that many broadcasters still preferred the older "HAR-ass". --Jayron32 17:52, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Here is a source on the trend in Britain, which has been slower to adopt the change, but is apparently doing so. --Jayron32 17:57, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm not very good at naming the twelfth sign of the zodiac (Pisces) and I never talk about that beach resort in Thailand (Phuket). 2A02:C7F:A14:AA00:38E6:FE21:347D:809E (talk) 19:11, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Japanese abbreviations[edit]

Chinese cities have abbreviations, for example: 北京 Běijīng - 京 Jīng, 上海 Shànghǎi - 沪 Hù, 广州 Guǎngzhōu - 穗 Suì. Is there a similar thing for Japanese cities? I'm especially interested in Japanese abbreviations for city names in maps. Thanks. -- (talk) 20:19, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

ja:日本の地名の略表記一覧 has a list of single-character abbreviations of Japanese cities, but I don't know whether they're used on maps. -- BenRG (talk) 21:28, 29 July 2016 (UTC)


July 24[edit]

Non-Bengali singers singing Bengali songs[edit]

Besides Mohammed Rafi, Ghulam Ali, Pankaj Udhas, Jagjit Singh, Mehdi Hasan, Lata Mangeshkar, Asha Bhosle, Anup Jalota and Talat Mahmood, what other non-Bengali singers were known for singing songs in Bengali regardless they were Pakistani and Indian? I am trying to listen how they sound like when they are singing songs in Bengali. Please and thanks. Donmust90 (talk) 02:30, 24 July 2016 (UTC)Donmust90Donmust90 (talk) 02:30, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

What kind of Dance Jump is this?[edit] Such an amazing display of flexibility and athleticism! --Arima (talk) 06:55, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

This article calls it a "Russian straddle jump". This video calls it an "open side leap". See split leap for our article. Tevildo (talk) 15:03, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Laptop Getting Hot While Playing[edit]

Hello , are the rise of temperature and speed of fan signs of a horrible end for the laptop due to playing games ? are all laptops prepared to be used for gaming ? (talk) 17:25, 24 July 2016 (UTC) My graphic card is Nvidia 820m , 2GBs (talk) 17:49, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Some laptops are better prepared for gaming than others (you get what you pay for). There are forums where you can find tips & tricks for keeping hard-core gamers' laptops alive. And, yes, a computer that is constantly struggling to maintain operational temperature is likely doomed to an early grave. Your GC gets a 1-star benchmark rating here:[51] -- Consider a better one if you're serious about gaming. --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:98E7:59EE:3480:3C03 (talk) 17:59, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Thank you very much . (talk) 18:22, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Stool with ladies legs[edit]

I saw the The Australian Ballet's version of Cinderella yesterday, and the set draws heavily on Dada and Surrealist Art. For example Salvador Dalí's Mae West Lips Sofa and Man Ray's Object to Be Destroyed both feature. There is also a low square stool, with four ladies legs forming the legs of the stool. The legs are bent at the knee and there is one in each corner. The legs are white and have red shoes on. I remember seeing one years ago and I think it might be a famous item. Does anybody recognise it from my description? I can't find it on Google, but it's not the easiest of things to search for. Thanks! --TrogWoolley (talk) 18:20, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Is this it: Folies Bergere Boudoir Stool ? (Close, but not exactly your description, however) 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:98E7:59EE:3480:3C03 (talk) 18:58, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
I remember English comedy-magician Tommy Cooper had a table, where the legs fell off, and he released two legs like that.
From some searching, it seems they've been around since the 1950s (according to this).
Youtube has various videos of them (example), and other magicians using similar setups . (talk) 05:37, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Cooper's 'Jack Hughes Comedy Legs Table' does not fit OP's description, however. --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:58E2:3708:C2A3:B874 (talk) 17:55, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

July 25[edit]

Swimsuit Glow Party[edit]

even in german media it was reported that a shooting happened at a Swimsuit Glow Party. Since I never heard of this before and google also doesn´t help very much. What is this?

Thank you Realwackel (talk) 12:50, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

You can see a flier for the event here (talk) 13:42, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Apparently, if you show up in a swimsuit (and $5) you get a "free glow kit". 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:58E2:3708:C2A3:B874 (talk) 18:00, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Freedom isn't free. InedibleHulk (talk) 15:28, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

Ah ok. So its kind of a lame version of a 90s foam-party. Thank you! Realwackel (talk) 05:30, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

July 26[edit]

Re. Lyrics and song meanings[edit]

Are lyrics a good enough source in themselves for referencing purported song meanings? I ask because the song for which I'd like to provide a reference ("I'm on the Lamb but I Ain't No Sheep" from Blue Öyster Cult's self-titled debut album) is pretty unambiguous in its meaning. The article states that the song is "about a fugitive pursued by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police"; the lyrics can be found here, and it's pretty clear what they mean. Would this be a suitable link to use as a reference?

Also, does anyone know where I can find references for other assertions being made in that subsection? I'd like to improve the article's quality, but I don't know where I could look. Kurtis (talk) 10:19, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

No, lyrics themselves are not a source to interpret the meanings of lyrics. The lyrics are a primary source. They can only be used to cite the actual content of the lyrics themselves (i.e quotes). Reliable sources which themselves discuss the meaning of the lyrics would be a secondary source and are required in order for a Wikipedia article to itself discuss the meaning. --Jayron32 15:39, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, that's the party line. But WP:NORULES and WP:BOLD also apply. I say OP can feel free to improve the article however they wish, understanding that said improvements will likely last longer if they are supported by secondary RS. This is related to the perennial debates on deletionism vs. inclusionism: I personally would rather have primary cites for songs than no description of what they are about. In this case, I don't think OP is making any interpretations that are beyond the scope of understanding ordinary phrases in English. Here is a secondary source [52] discussing BOC lyrics, but honestly it's not that reliable, and I'm not terribly certain that there is a highly reliable interpretation of the lyrics of this song. We have articles on on the lamb, and Canadian Mounted Police, and IMO it's not that terrible if one of our editors uses their brain to describe 45 year old rock song. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:39, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
By the way, the phrase is on the lam. Bored sheep herders whose wives don't meet their needs may be "on the lamb", but fugitives from the law are "on the lam". --Jayron32 17:52, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
"On the lam(b) but ain't no sheep" would be a play on words. What it specifically refers to, if it's not made plain in the lyrics, would require a secondary source. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:10, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, I think it is a bit of wordplay, but that's not really necessary to get in to for a basic description of the what the song is about. "On the lamb" is a common (mis)spelling of "on the lam", it is the spelling used in the title of the song, and it is also popular enough that we have a redirect. I personally don't think it is at all a stretch to say the song is about a person who is a fugitive from the RCMP, and in this specific case, I'd invoke Wikipedia:You_don't_need_to_cite_that_the_sky_is_blue. Jayron is of course correct in his statement of best practices and official policy, but I also wanted to share an alternative perspective. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:31, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
I don't know the song. Does it say anything specificially about a fugitive or the Mounties? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:33, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
The lyrics start by mentioning the Mounties, but it's not at all clear that it's about some specific fugitive, nor even that it's literally about the Mounties. I especially like where they mark one section "incomprehensible". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:54, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
That was my thinking as well - lyrics seem to me as a primary source. The only problem is that I can't really find any decent second-party sources to add as references for the article, which is frustrating. Kurtis (talk) 01:06, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, I had a brief look too, and that blog post was about the best I could find. If you really want to do it right, you can probably find some stuff in real-paper books (possibly using google books). For example the Encyclopedia of Heavy metal tells me that Sandy Pearlman or Richard Meltzer might have written about these songs/lyrics in some detail, so you could try that route. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:05, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

July 27[edit]

Number of baseball games played by Chris Sale[edit]

I know almost nothing about baseball, so be gentle. The one thing I do know is that the season is 162 games long. With this in mind, is it normal for Chris Sale to have played (started?) in only 114 games since his debut in 2010? To my untutored eye, it seems a low number for someone who appears to be so highly rated. Many thanks. Dalliance (talk) 12:33, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

First and foremost, it's important to note that games played for pitchers (such as Sale) do not align with other positions. A pitcher can be reasonably expected to play, while healthy, in about 1/4 of their team's games, give or take. This number is frequently higher for relief pitchers and lower for starting pitchers, owing to the higher number of innings per appearance typically pitched by the starter.
So, Sale was first called up to the majors in 2010, but that was a late-season call-up. Let's toss it out rather than trying to pro-rate. He appeared in 58 games as a reliever in 2011. That was the fewest appearances of the Sox' five primary relievers that year, but all were within 10 appearances of each other. So, I think that qualifies as being normal usage. From 2012 on, he's been a starter (note, on the first ref, that "G" for games played tracks very closely with "GS" for games started), and has started about 30 games a year. That matches up well against the more-or-less five-pitcher rotation that the Sox (and most MLB teams) have used over that span -- their most-heavily started pitcher has started no more than 33 games in a season during the relevant period. That also counts as normal usage.
Lastly, we can contrast against other top-tier pitchers. Going through the list of Cy Young Award winners provides a good benchmark; I selected Clayton Kershaw because he's a multiple winner during Sale's career. From 2012-2016, Kershaw has appeared in 142 games. Sale has appeared in 136 during that span. So his usage checks out there against one of the consensus best pitchers in the game, too. — Lomn 14:22, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Just to elaborate a bit, baseball players are basically grouped into two categories: position players and pitchers. For a position player to play (almost) every game in the season is reasonably common (see, for example, Cal Ripken Jr., who played in a record 2,632 consecutive games). Pitchers cannot play every inning the way a position player could; the physical strain makes that impossible. Starting pitchers (i.e. the ones who start the games and rack up the most innings) typically start one fifth of their team's games at most and only pitch for seven or eight innings each game. Relief pitchers (like Sale) can pitch in more games than a starting pitcher could, but at the "cost" of not pitching so many innings per game. But even the relief pitchers could not play every game - the physical strain on their arms would result in injury. Matt Deres (talk) 16:28, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
The situation has evolved as a function of the schedule. In the early days of the National League in the 1870s, a team had just one regular pitcher, but they only played about twice a week, so it worked out about the same as it does today, with two or three days' rest. (They also had to deliver underhanded.) By the 1880s, the schedule had expanded to the point where they needed two regular pitchers. Squads were limited to 12, and substitution was limited. The pitcher with the "off" day would often play right field. And pitchers were allowed to throw overhand. By the 1890s, the schedule and the squad size had expanded to modern levels. Pitchers no longer played in other positions, as a general rule. But they also pitched full games when possible. That's how Cy Young ended up with more than 500 wins and more than 300 losses. Babe Ruth began as a pitcher, and his games-played reflected the phenomenon the OP asked about. But once his extraordinary batting came to the fore, they started playing him more often. He eventually said "enough" to the pitching and became a full-time outfielder, playing pretty much every day. After that, he only pitched a few times (and won them all, by the way). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:50, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Superb answers. Thank you all very much indeed. Dalliance (talk) 21:49, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

July 28[edit]

Credits of "The Player" (1992)[edit]

Hello, can anybody tell why the credits of The Player contain the entry "Nick Nolte: Cher" – as if Nick Nolte played Cher, although both make cameo appearances and, of course, this would generally make no sense at all. Could it just be a simple mistake?--Hubon (talk) 00:46, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

I am not sure what you are talking about. This section The Player (film)#Cast quite clearly lists them separately and as playing "themselves" which fits their cameo roles. I checked the edit history for any recent vandalism that might have caused this and there is none. MarnetteD|Talk 01:13, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
I think he means the credits in the film itself, not the Wikipedia article. --Viennese Waltz 07:48, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation Viennese Waltz. I haven't seen the film in at least a decade and don't remember how the final credits are presented. If it lists all the cameos in a block it might appear in the manner that the OP mentions but that is just WP:SPECULATION on my part. MarnetteD|Talk 14:04, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Maybe the OP could upload a screen capture or point us to a youtube? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:32, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

July 29[edit]

Time Magazine cover referenced[edit]

Which Time Magazine cover is this webcomic[53] talking about? Crudiv1 (talk) 18:56, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't read it as being about a specific cover. I read it as a joke that nobody actually buys Time Magazine. They just look at the cover. I assume you are assuming that the next joke (about Rocket League) is a continuation of the first joke. It is a series of short unrelated jokes. (talk) 19:46, 29 July 2016 (UTC)


July 24[edit]

Identify this printing feature?[edit]

Look at this page scan from Wikisource, specifically the "B 2" in the footer. Another Wikisource user called this sort of thing a printing artifact which should not be transcribed. But what is it called and what purpose does it serve? BethNaught (talk) 12:06, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

It's a Signature mark. Nanonic (talk) 12:20, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
The image on that page as it stands is really crap. Can we use the wikisource one instead? Muffled Pocketed 06:35, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Wiki markup font[edit]

What font is MediaWiki markup in? ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 23:25, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

The literal answer to this question is "whatever font your text editor uses". The markup is what you see in the editing box when you click on "edit", not what it generates. The font you see will depend on your stylesheet - for Monobook and Vector, it's Courier 13 point. See Wiki markup, WP:CSS, WP:MARKUP and WP:TYPE. However, I don't think that this answer is what you're looking for. Tevildo (talk) 01:02, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
@Tevildo: I actually was looking for the font of the source code itself. Thanks! ThePlatypusofDoom (talk) 01:38, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
As Tevildo says, it's not in any font. I suggest you read the introduction to our article on plain text.--Shantavira|feed me 06:08, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Right, but, if you're talking about using a MediaWiki site in a browser, the browser will use a font to display the page source, following the stylesheets if possible. What Tevildo probably meant to ask was, "What is the default font for the MediaWiki edit window?" -- (talk) 13:48, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

July 25[edit]

International civil codes - regulations on at-cost and free-of-cost cooperation agreements[edit]

Hi, I know this borders on a legal topic, but I am just wondering on if I can find a database on global civil cooperation agreements, and am not seeking advice of any sort. Is such a repository available? (talk) 01:35, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

An article about access to information is at Free Access to Law Movement. One of the websites with US focus Worldlii is at , see if that has what you want. Lists of databases with Australian focus at and EU stuff at , and for UN . I am probably totally missing what you want though! Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:39, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Dating birthday card[edit]


I'm trying to date this birthday card, likely printed sometime between the mid 1980s and the early 1990s in the UK. Apart from the maker's mark and the art (neither of which I am expert in and which I have no clue how to even begin to research) there are no contextual clues that are immediately tipping me off. Long shot, maybe, but I would be very grateful if someone could narrow it down to a year or two. Thanks! Evan (talk|contribs) 10:56, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

One of "Sharpe's Classic Greeting Cards", with the artwork signed by "Robin", printed in England. I have no idea where to go from there. Is that company still in existence? Someguy1221 (talk) 11:06, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
WHAG here but it looks to date from the very early days of supermarkets in the UK, so maybe sometime before 1980? --TammyMoet (talk) 12:28, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
The cartooning style to me looks more like 1950s. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:12, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
One can search Victoria and Albert Museum -- Sharpe's Classic Greeting Card collection online, but your card isn't there:[54] --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:58E2:3708:C2A3:B874 (talk) 16:42, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I agree that the style is late 50s ~ early 60s -- not mid 80s ~ early 90s. --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:58E2:3708:C2A3:B874 (talk) 17:26, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the help, guys! I received the image from a friend who was born in the late 1970s, so he can't have received the card earlier than the early 1980s, but I agree the art style suggests it's a bit older. It is possible, I guess, that it was given to him by someone who had blank cards stockpiled from decades past. I have relatives who do the same. Evan (talk|contribs) 17:45, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
In my experience, it's not uncommon for modern greetings cards to use older images and artwork; sometimes with added captions, sometimes not. On the other hand, that particular artist, whose style though not name I recognise, might well have still been active in the 1980s – his 'dated' style was part of the charm, and the typography of the greeting strikes me as more modern that the apparent era of the cartoon. {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 18:13, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, presumably the "Classic" could mean "retro" style. --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:58E2:3708:C2A3:B874 (talk) 18:23, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Or it could mean that they were reprinting older cards. -- (talk) 22:12, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Sharpe's were bought by Hallmark in 1984 for £21m.[55][56][57] I notice this card has no barcode but does have the price code at the bottom left of the back page. Perhaps if anyone could research which ones were in use in a particular era, we could narrow it down. Nanonic (talk) 18:38, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
That's a good clue, but we can't assume they stopped selling under the name Sharpe's as soon as they were bought by Hallmark. They might have continued operating under the old name for some time after, and/or they might have stocks with the old name on them. StuRat (talk) 03:03, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

What does WHAG mean? Robinh (talk) 21:58, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Wild half-assed guess. Nanonic (talk) 22:17, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

You could try asking The Cartoon Museum, The Cartoonists Club of GB or the Professional Cartoonists Organisation. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 01:23, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Automobile oil consumption mystery[edit]

How is it that a vehicle can consume motor oil (oil is not leaking out) and then sometime later the vehicle maintains its oil level and stops consuming?? (talk) 22:52, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Wild-assed guess 1) is an intermittent fault in the Crankcase ventilation system and 2) is you changed the oil to a more viscous sort which is less inclined to leak past the piston rings. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:09, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
WAed guess 3) carbon build-up and/or sludge around the piston rings, that burned off (or became dislodged and ejected). 4) Piston oil-control ring(s) not seated properly, which subsequently become seated ("engine break-in"). 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:807B:66FA:B5EC:A602 (talk) 23:32, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Possibility 5) improved driving skills. Better driving puts less strain on the engine. Wymspen (talk) 07:30, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
5.1) Decreased torque load: not driving uphill as much, or no longer towing trailer, or removing gold bars from trunk. --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:807B:66FA:B5EC:A602 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:14, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

A little oil consumtion is nothing to be worried about. Thats pretty normal, especially for engines that are in use for a few years. But if suddenly an engine that consumed oil "stops" doing it, this could also mean that there is water or gasoline leaking into the oil-system, which is something to be very much worried about. Check the smell and look of the oil. If the oil smells like gasoline, it drips not like honey but water or worst case: it looks like milk-coffee, you should take it to a mechanic asap. Realwackel (talk) 12:41, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

A dipstick gives only a crude indication of too much or too little oil inside a 4-stroke car engine.

Vehicle combustion engines always consume some oil, see Internal combustion engine#Lubrication. The dipstick takes no account of oil that may be resting in the Oil filter and oilways that takes time to drain back to the sump (oil pan). If you had no oil consumption problems when your engine was new and now you have since it’s old then have your engine checked for worn seals and gaskets. Two-stroke engines (rare in vehicles) consume immediately all the oil for lubrication that is mixed with their fuel and causes smokey blue exhaust. Such exhaust coming from a 4-stroke engine indicates an engine fault such as broken piston ring or oil seal. Another rare serious fault is when a faulty head gasket lets coolant leak into the crankcase, so the engine appears to "make" extra oil. AllBestFaith (talk) 12:58, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Oil leaks lead to blue smoke, coolant leaks lead to white smoke[58]. If the exhaust is clear, it may be neither of those. --Jayron32 17:56, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

July 26[edit]

I have an admiral refidg. looking for a gasket for freeze part#63001612 model#Ltf2112arw[edit]

I have an Admiral fridgerator looking for a gasket for freezer Part # 63001612 Model #ltf2112arw Bold text--Noreejones (talk) 15:36, 26 July 2016 (UTC)--Noreejones (talk) 15:36, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

@Noreejones: This page is only for enquiries related to Wikipedia. Thanks, --Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) 16:38, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Huh? No, it's not! You're confusing the help desk with this one.--TMCk (talk) 16:46, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
  • To the OP: Google for it and if you can't find the correct part you could get an universal gasket like this one from ebay.--TMCk (talk) 16:49, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

2016 Democratic National Committee email leak, Lawrence Lessig[edit]

I don't know if it was spin or what, but I heard people on talk radio saying that because Bernie Sanders only caucused with the Democratic party, rather than being a Democrat, the DNC wasn't obligated to be fair towards him. That could be valid although unappealing. So my question is, are there leaked emails indicating lack of fairness towards Lessig or not? As far as I know, Lessig is a member of the democratic party. (talk) 16:09, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware the only leaks have been on wikileaks where the emails at least are ordinary text and searchable. So you can easily find yourself that lessig doesn't seem to be mentioned at all [59]. This doesn't rule out misspellings or mentioning Lessig without mentioning his surname or attachments which I'm not sure if wikileaks supports searching at all. But it's also easy to take a random sampling of emails mentioning lawrence where you'll probably find that none of them seem to be referring to Lawrence Lessig [60].
This shouldn't particularly surprising since Lessig withdrew on November 2 which well before the primaries and caucases and less than 2 months after entering the race on September 6. He did not appear in any debates after controversy over the appearance requirement (although was invited to one but dropped out before it happened). (And in case you're wondering about the debates, there seems to be little discussion of them in the email [61] [62]. Remembering of course that people still use face to face communication, letters, phones and maybe even faxes for a fair few official things.) He had even less of an impact than Martin O'Malley [63] [64] [65] who frankly I think even most ardent Democrats will struggle to name. (I.E there was little reason to care that much about whether to be fair to Lessig's campaign.)
Incidentally, although the emails nominally cover the period "January last year until 25 May this year", probably less than 800 of them are from before 2016 [66] [67] [68] [69]. And this is including a bunch where either the email system or wikileaks hasn't properly caught the date as well as those marked as spam. Whether this is because different people were involved who's emails weren't leaked, the emails were missed for some reason, or simply there were few emails at that early stage I don't know.
Nil Einne (talk) 17:29, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
There is no party to be part of. Our system doesn't work like that on a national level. Rmhermen (talk) 17:53, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

New York City Political Structure[edit]

I am trying to find the political structure of all elected officials in NYC. For example--- Mayor, Vice Mayor, and so on all the way to the lowest elected office. Can you help, please.

Irving B Levine — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:36, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Start at Government_of_New_York_City and then come back with any other questions not answered. RudolfRed (talk) 16:59, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

July 27[edit]

Home soundproofing for musicians[edit]

I'll be moving house soon. I play electric guitar and sing, and I'd like to be able to practice without disturbing the neighbours, so I'm looking for ideas on soundproofing. Google's not much help - I've found plenty of advice on soundproofing a home studio so no external noise gets in when you're recording, and some on making a room that a whole band, including drummer, can rehearse in, which is more than I need. Anyone have any thoughts, links etc on how to achieve my objective? --Nicknack009 (talk) 10:37, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Start here so you have a basic understanding of Soundproofing. A lot of the materials can be improvised. (talk) 12:14, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
A classic British-designed soundproof song practice studio supplied ready equipped with windows, audio handset and lighting. AllBestFaith (talk) 21:04, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
An electric guitar played through Headphones is hardly audible and won't disturb anyone. AllBestFaith (talk) 12:28, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
lol. Still a room in a big room (talk) 21:39, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
That's true. I have an audio interface so I can play my guitar through headphones, or through my PC speakers, which are much better at low volumes than my guitar amp. Reducing the audibility of my singing is more of a problem. Singing quietly doesn't help me practice the kind of techniques I need to use when performing.
One thing occurs to me - I have a lot of books. Would a bookcase along the party wall, full of books, provide any useful soundproofing? --Nicknack009 (talk) 12:35, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
See Soundproofing#Absorption. Solid dense materials - like books - will actually transmit sound quite well - especially if the bookcase is against the wall. It may work if you used it as one of the walls in a (edit) room within a room - acoustic decoupling. (talk) 12:49, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
You could try something like this It is kinda a "rwar". Like I said above - you could improvise something like that with material from Lowe's or the like. I don't know who lives above/below you but I understand you share a wall with someone. So "the vibration passes directly through the brick, woodwork and other solid structural elements." It's not so much what to do but more what not to do. Mitigate the transmission depending on your setup. The poster aka (talk) 18:05, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Yep, to decrease structural transmission, OP can get the amp off the floor. I've seen some people hang their amps from the ceiling, but that can be tricky, depending on the size. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:22, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Check with an upholsterer or even furniture makers in your area, you might be able to get free foam scraps. Soundproofing foam can get expensive quickly [70]. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:22, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
We used to stick cardboard egg trays to the wall. You can buy them from ebay [[71]]. I don't know if it worked or not.--Ykraps (talk) 14:48, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
The egg-carton idea is intended to reduce echoes and reverberation from the walls beneath (a kind of cheapo Anechoic chamber) - I don't think it does much to prevent transmission of sound through the walls. When I worked in student radio back in the mid-1970's, we lined the walls of our studios with egg cartons - and the deadening of echoes and reverbs was quite impressive. SteveBaker (talk) 02:50, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Must the Federal Reserves give me gold when I give them bucks and want gold?[edit]

If they don't have to give gold when they are given bucks, then why do they have to maintain so much gold? HOTmag (talk) 21:15, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

The US hasn't been on the Gold standard for quite some time and hasn't had to issue gold to other central banks in exchange for dollars since 1971 (see Nixon shock). US currency is a fiat currency, backed solely by the full faith and credit of the United States government. As for your second question, the simple answer is: to help maintain world confidence in said "full faith and credit of the US government" (see Fractional-reserve banking).--William Thweatt TalkContribs 21:37, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
I agree with WT's answers, but it should be emphasized that the gold standard and fractional reserve banking are entirely different beasts. μηδείς (talk) 22:15, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Indeed. The fractional reserve banking link was given as more of a "see also", informational link for a simple-answer analogy (store of value and gold reserve are also instructive). A more complete answer would be complicated and would have started by pointing out that the Fed doesn't "maintain so much gold" at all -- in fact, they don't own any gold.[72] The US gold reserve is owned by the US Treasury and the Fed acts as custodian for a very small portion of it.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 22:37, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
a fiat currency, backed solely by the full faith and credit of the United States government. What, if anything, does that mean? What claim does the currency represent? What does USG promise to do? —Tamfang (talk) 06:19, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
1. Keep the value steady (with some inflation because it raises employment I think) 2. Let you pay taxes with it. That's about it I think. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 07:55, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Money creation gets at some of this, and is also relevant to the OP. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:10, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
And for a not-literally-correct-but-perhaps-fun analogy, consider every dollar as being a speech act of the Federal govt of the USA. They say "this is a dollar", and lo, it is, by merit of that claim! Much like when your boss says "you're fired", your job becomes terminated solely by the will of some person or agency. You can ask why, or by what right, but none of that really matters, you are still fired :D SemanticMantis (talk) 14:14, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
What it means, @Tamfang: is that the government will accept your cash to pay fees, fines, and taxes. Unless it decides not to, in which case see hyperinflation. μηδείς (talk) 19:40, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
"Faith and credit" is a strange way to say that. —Tamfang (talk) 22:25, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
It (the phrase) was written (in the US founding document) in 1787 when English was weird. Maybe that's why. And the government wouldn't destroy it's economy and currency and cause a Great Depression and probably a tax revolt to get at most a few years' worth of tax money in gold (until they get voted out at the latest). Also, the income is earned in dollars, it should be taxed in dollars. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:44, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
"Full faith" would refer to item 3, "trustworthy" in Wiktionary here, but without associating neither the writer nor the referee together with the assorted meaning of a dependent state of servitude. But the currency dissociation from gold is quite recent. --Askedonty (talk) 18:25, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
You won't get gold, but if you take your old, raggedy bills to a bank, then you can get nice new ones. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:18, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

July 28[edit]

Human physical features[edit]

Are there any human physical features that could be described as 'Primative', regardless of whether that individual is white, black, indigenous etc racially? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 08:39, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Reduction of the muzzle in the adult (flat-facedness) is a feature all humans share but do not have in common with other (adult) primates. It's better to speak of an autapomorphy then a primitive trait, though, since you are always defining these things relative to a group of interest and its sister groups. In this case, flatfacedness is a neoteny, and again there is a possible confusion engendered by the term "primitive". If all of this is too much jargon: we humans have no muzzles (and do have relatively big noses) and that is one thing that sets us apart from the Great Apes. (talk) 10:08, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
[73]. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 10:17, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
You quite frequently see noticeably sloping foreheads amongst the lower classes. (talk) 12:52, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
As with Bungalow Bill, "bullet-headed Saxon mother's son"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:36, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
The only way to scientifically get at this is with the definition given at Primitive_(phylogenetics). So for instance, we are all primates, and have all the derived traits that primates do, as well as the basal traits for apes. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:01, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
If we limit this to a consideration of true humans (Homo sapiens sapiens), and exclude the various other species which preceded us, there is a big difficulty in determining what the first, and therefore most "primitive" humans actually looked like. We know that there is now considerable physical diversity within out species. The earliest fossils of the species are very few in number, and being skeletal do not allow us to determine many of the physical features we now recognise as racial variants. Further, the very small number of fossils means that we are not able to say if those first humans all looked much the same: it is possible that there was a similar degree of physical diversity among those first humans as we now observe among the modern population. Wymspen (talk) 16:42, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
  • I took the OP's question as referring to things like people born with tails, which IIRC, happens in about 1/1000 births. μηδείς (talk) 17:49, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Being born with a tail is "primitive", as in an evolutionary throw-back, not only in Homo sapiens but in other great apes. Humans are tailless because we are great apes and great apes are tailless. Humans are distinguished from other great apes in various ways including larger brains, more flexible hands (even more than apes), and being nearly hairless. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:48, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
For an example of the correct use of terminology: tails are a primitive trait for primates, in precisely the sense of the article I link above. Taillessness, i.e. the trait of having no tail, is a derived trait of the apes. SemanticMantis (talk) 22:02, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Photo shoot[edit]

Hello there,

Is anyone around familiar with photography or photo shoots? I'm currently working on a project and I need information on how a photo shoot is developed. How many people is usually involved (besides the photographer and the model). Does the make-up artist have to be there during the whole photo shoot?

I'd appreciate any comments or links where I can get detailed information. References to Annie Leibovitz's style and gear are welcomed.

Thanks a lot. Miss Bono [hello, hello!] 18:02, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

There will be someone doing the lights, which is a skilled, technical, and essential job. The makeup artists will stick around. There may also be a double, who will stand in for the model, so that the camera and lighting can be set up while the model is getting made up. There can certainly be more than just one photographer. μηδείς (talk) 19:46, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Sure, it might be a big affair, or it might be just a model and photographer. Hard to say, there's lots of things that might count as a photo shoot. The Magazine cover of a national magazine probably works a little different from e.g. boudoir photography. SemanticMantis (talk) 22:00, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia has an article about the American portrait photographer Annie Leibovitz. It is evident from her work with many celebrities that she invests time developing a close rapport with each one. She has used a polaroid camera to collect initial snapshots and it is clear that more work goes into the final picture concept than would be necessary with regular professional models. Leibovitz's Photo shoots obviously have not followed a set pattern in such projects as photographing a dancer on a gargøyle on a Manhatten skyskraper, or photographing Whoopi Goldberg lying in a bathtub full of milk. This article by Leibovitz tells a little of her motivation. As a general rule, the less planned a professional photograph seems to be, the more planning and preparation has gone into it. I assume a conceptual photographer such as Annie Leibovitz exerts directorial control over anyone needed (or not) at her photo shoots including, it is reported, offending Queen Elizabeth by asking her to remove her tiara. AllBestFaith (talk) 00:23, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
It would help if Miss Bono gave us her assignment brief. A photo shoot can range from using natural light without even a reflector nor makeup, to an indoor studio shoot where one needs a dresser (seen those models in mail order catalogues, wearing off-the-peg evening gowns that fit so perfectly – look behind and the dresser has used a lot of safety pins to nip&tuck in order make the gown look a perfect fit). We need more info from the OP. Sounds like the commissioner really needs to employ a professional for this job if you're worrying about make-up. If (say) the model is a red-head and is to wear a green dress (nice combination) she will know what colour lipsticks to avoid - don’t need a make up artist for that! The model's career depends on accomplishing each assignment well and will point out any faux pas that the photographer may make. For high class photography where a make up artist is needed to be on hand (and perhaps a stylist and dresser) then the client doesn’t commission someone that has to ask these questions. Finally, I have never come across a photographer that needs someone to do the lights – in cinematography this may be the norm but not for a photographer.--Aspro (talk) 00:34, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
This video at 1:20 shows an Annie Leibovitz photo shoot in progress involving many models, assistents and lighting equipment (possibly intended to be in the image). AllBestFaith (talk) 14:07, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

July 29[edit]