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July 1[edit]

Rapidminer XPath query help[edit]

I am trying to extract tabular information from pages on a website. I am using rapidminer for this. I have: - page links stored in an excel file (for the code snippet below have just used a single page) - Rapidminer process accesses these links one at a time and extracts the tabular data

The problem is that this table can have n number of rows (variable across table son pages). The process I have created can get the table data rows but how can I modify it to iterate over n number of table rows dynamically.

The XML for the Rapidminer process is below:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="no"?> <process version="6.4.000">

 <operator activated="true" class="process" compatibility="6.4.000" expanded="true" name="Process">
   <process expanded="true">
     <operator activated="true" class="text:create_document" compatibility="6.4.001" expanded="true" height="60" name="Create Document" width="90" x="45" y="75">
       <parameter key="text" value=""/>
       <parameter key="add label" value="true"/>
       <parameter key="label_type" value="text"/>
       <parameter key="label_value" value="_link"/>
     <operator activated="true" class="text:documents_to_data" compatibility="6.4.001" expanded="true" height="76" name="Documents to Data" width="90" x="179" y="75">
       <parameter key="text_attribute" value="Link"/>
       <parameter key="add_meta_information" value="false"/>
     <operator activated="true" class="web:retrieve_webpages" compatibility="5.3.002" expanded="true" height="60" name="Get Pages" width="90" x="45" y="210">
       <parameter key="link_attribute" value="Link"/>
       <parameter key="page_attribute" value="myPage"/>
       <parameter key="random_user_agent" value="true"/>
     <operator activated="true" class="text:data_to_documents" compatibility="6.4.001" expanded="true" height="60" name="Data to Documents" width="90" x="179" y="210">
       <parameter key="select_attributes_and_weights" value="true"/>
       <list key="specify_weights">
         <parameter key="myPage" value="1.0"/>
     <operator activated="true" class="text:process_documents" compatibility="6.4.001" expanded="true" height="94" name="Process Documents" width="90" x="313" y="210">
       <parameter key="create_word_vector" value="false"/>
       <parameter key="keep_text" value="true"/>
       <process expanded="true">
         <operator activated="true" class="multiply" compatibility="6.4.000" expanded="true" height="76" name="Multiply" width="90" x="45" y="75"/>
         <operator activated="false" class="loop" compatibility="6.4.000" expanded="true" height="76" name="Loop" width="90" x="246" y="210">
           <parameter key="set_iteration_macro" value="true"/>
           <parameter key="macro_name" value="itr"/>
           <parameter key="iterations" value="20"/>
           <process expanded="true">
             <operator activated="true" class="text:extract_information" compatibility="6.4.001" expanded="true" height="60" name="Extract Information (2)" width="90" x="179" y="75">
               <parameter key="query_type" value="XPath"/>
               <list key="string_machting_queries"/>
               <list key="regular_expression_queries"/>
               <list key="regular_region_queries"/>
               <list key="xpath_queries">
                 <parameter key="Rw" value="//*[@id='body_body_tbody']/h:tr[${itr}]/h:td/h:strong/text()"/>
               <list key="namespaces"/>
               <list key="index_queries"/>
               <list key="jsonpath_queries"/>
             <connect from_port="input 1" to_op="Extract Information (2)" to_port="document"/>
             <connect from_op="Extract Information (2)" from_port="document" to_port="output 1"/>
             <portSpacing port="source_input 1" spacing="0"/>
             <portSpacing port="source_input 2" spacing="0"/>
             <portSpacing port="sink_output 1" spacing="0"/>
             <portSpacing port="sink_output 2" spacing="0"/>
         <operator activated="true" class="text:extract_information" compatibility="6.4.001" expanded="true" height="60" name="Extract Information" width="90" x="246" y="75">
           <parameter key="query_type" value="XPath"/>
           <list key="string_machting_queries"/>
           <list key="regular_expression_queries"/>
           <list key="regular_region_queries"/>
           <list key="xpath_queries">
             <parameter key="Hierarchy" value="//*[@id='form1']/h:div[4]/h:div[2]/h:p[@class='breadcrumb']/text()"/>
             <parameter key="Hierarchy_L1" value="//*[@id='form1']/h:div[4]/h:div[2]/h:h2/text()"/>
             <parameter key="Tbl_Rw_Angus" value="//*[@id='body_body_tbody']/h:tr[1]/h:td/h:strong/text()"/>
           <list key="namespaces"/>
           <list key="index_queries"/>
           <list key="jsonpath_queries"/>
         <connect from_port="document" to_op="Multiply" to_port="input"/>
         <connect from_op="Multiply" from_port="output 1" to_op="Extract Information" to_port="document"/>
         <connect from_op="Extract Information" from_port="document" to_port="document 1"/>
         <portSpacing port="source_document" spacing="0"/>
         <portSpacing port="sink_document 1" spacing="0"/>
         <portSpacing port="sink_document 2" spacing="0"/>
     <connect from_op="Create Document" from_port="output" to_op="Documents to Data" to_port="documents 1"/>
     <connect from_op="Documents to Data" from_port="example set" to_op="Get Pages" to_port="Example Set"/>
     <connect from_op="Get Pages" from_port="Example Set" to_op="Data to Documents" to_port="example set"/>
     <connect from_op="Data to Documents" from_port="documents" to_op="Process Documents" to_port="documents 1"/>
     <connect from_op="Process Documents" from_port="example set" to_port="result 1"/>
     <portSpacing port="source_input 1" spacing="0"/>
     <portSpacing port="sink_result 1" spacing="0"/>
     <portSpacing port="sink_result 2" spacing="0"/>


The ideal output would be like:

The PUB® Steak Burger Products Angus 215-960 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Angus Beef Chuck Steak Burger 6 28 10.50
The PUB® Steak Burger Products Angus 215-940 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Angus Beef Chuck Steak Burger 4 40 10
The PUB® Steak Burger Products Angus 215-930 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Angus Beef Chuck Steak Burger 3 56 10.50
The PUB® Steak Burger Products Choice 15-960 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Angus Beef Chuck Steak Burger 6 27 10.13
The PUB® Steak Burger Products Choice 15-940 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Angus Beef Chuck Steak Burger 4 40 10
The PUB® Steak Burger Products Choice 15-930 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Angus Beef Chuck Steak Burger 3 53 9.94
This is a case where I'd use 'lynx -dump' to pull the whole page in a preformatted way. Hitting that particular page, returns:
  Item # Product Name Portion Size (oz.) Portions Per Case Case Weight(lb.)
  [192]215-960 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Angus Beef Chuck Steak Burger 6.000000 28 10.50
  [193]215-940 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Angus Beef Chuck Steak Burger 4.000000 40 10.00
  [194]215-930 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Angus Beef Chuck Steak Burger 3.000000 56 10.50
  [195]15-960 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Beef Chuck Steak Burger 6.000000 27 10.13
  [196]15-940 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Beef Chuck Steak Burger 4.000000 40 10.00
  [197]15-930 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Beef Chuck Steak Burger 3.000000 53 9.94
  [198]22801-761 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Beef Chuck Steak Burger 4.000000 40 10.00
  [199]22800-761 Flamebroiled USDA Choice Beef Chuck Steak Burger 3.000000 56 10.50
  [200]15-260 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger 6.000000 27 10.12
  [201]15-250 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger 5.000000 32 10.00
  [202]15-250-40 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger 5.000000 128 40.00
  [203]15-245 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger 4.500000 36 10.12
  [204]15-240 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger 4.000000 40 10.00
  [205]15-230 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger 3.000000 53 9.94
  [206]15-330-20 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger 3.000000 81 15.19
  [207]15-230-2 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger with Foil Bags 3.000000 160 30.00
  [208]15-275 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger 2.750000 58 9.96
  [209]15-224 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger 2.400000 68 10.20
  [210]10712 Flamebroiled Mini Beef Steak Burger with Bun 2.200000 72 9.90
  [211]22985-330 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger, Strip Steak Shape CN 3.000000 56 10.50
  [212]15-338-9 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger CN 3.800000 67 15.91
  [213]15-330-09 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger CN 3.000000 81 15.19
  [214]3-15-327-09 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger CN 2.700000 175 29.53
  [215]15-327-09 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger CN 2.700000 88 14.85
  [216]3-15-324-09 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger CN 2.400000 200 30.00
  [217]15-324-09 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger CN 2.400000 90 13.50
  [218]15-320-09 Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger CN 2.010000 114 14.32
  [219]15-312-9 Flamebroiled Mini Beef Steak Burger CN 1.200000 135 10.12
  Smart Picks™ Beef Steak Burgers
  [220]68050 Smart Picks™ Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger CN 2.000000 170 21.25
  [221]68001 Smart Picks™ Flamebroiled Beef Steak Burger CN 1.600000 210 21.00
As you can see, the data is formatted reasonably nice. It wouldn't be hard to strip off the last three numbers of each line and the item number from the beginning. The [###] fields are symbols for the links listed at the bottom of the dump (which I did not show). (talk) 12:55, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

The problem here is that I need to accomplish this task using Rapidminer only - how can it be doe using Rapidminer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 04:23, 3 July 2015 (UTC)


Is there any evidence that nfc is likely to be more successful than previous short range contactless technology such as rfid and Bluetooth? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 05:59, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

It is mainly about range. If you want communication to have a very short range, NFC is better. If you want communication to have a medium range, Bluetooth is better. If you want to have a large range, WiFi is better. If you want to reach out to anywhere in the world, you pass it off to the cell tower. (talk) 12:35, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
See Near field communication for our article. Tevildo (talk) 17:57, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

How to start windows in safe mode, then restart other services[edit]

Hi, I have a problem with my Vista computer from c2010, taking forever (~40 mins) to boot, giving me the grey screen of death at the start. So I start in safe mode, and that's fine, but there's no internet and no sound. Presumably no video either. Can I start windows in safe mode, *then* load up all the other things, one at a time, as needed? I only need a few things, like I say, sound, video, internet. Networking per se is present, and it recognises the ethernet connection, but won't let me on the web, won't connect to my ISP, etc. It just says, "Can't create this connection." IBE (talk) 18:42, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

For clarity, are you running safe mode with networking, or safe mode? Nil Einne (talk) 19:03, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure I did it with networking - that was what I ticked intentionally, so unless I'm doing something wrong, it's with networking. IBE (talk) 19:41, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I do not think you can "load" missing services. In a safe mode you can only save you data to an external drive then reset your laptop to its original state. Ruslik_Zero 20:12, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
The top two results in this Google search seem relevant, BUT if you are not completely comfortable with making registry edits, I would not go any further. (for the record, I am seeing a result for and one for --LarryMac | Talk 20:55, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
How hard can it be? ;) well, I'm going to reinstall windows if I can't fix it, so it doesn't matter much, thanks I'll give it a try. IBE (talk) 16:49, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

July 2[edit]

What Web Browser is this?[edit]

My hotel has a web browser I've never seen before. Its logo is a white S within a blue globe circle. Googling "web browser s logo" brings up one site with the logo, called, but I can't click it because the hotel kiosk forbids me from visiting that site.

Im still at the hotel, so I cant click on a lot of things. What browser si this? (talk) 18:01, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Assuming we both found the same image (a picture of the Earth with a large white S), this is an icon for IronSource's "Spearmint" browser (for Google Android). Tevildo (talk) 18:19, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Android? How odd. I wonder why a hotel desktop would have an android browser? Thanks! (talk) 18:41, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Judging by this list, SlimBrowser might be what you're looking at - it runs under Windows and appears able to be locked down pretty tight. WegianWarrior (talk) 18:51, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Interesting. The Spearmint logo is _very_ similar (the main difference being that the "S" is white rather than cream, and the map is dark blue rather than white). We may have uncovered nefariousness. I agree that SlimBrowser is a more likely candidate for the OP's hotel system. Tevildo (talk) 19:54, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

What are the limitations of cygwin?[edit]

If you use the linux command line specially for tools like grep, sed, awk and similar other, mainly for the one-liners, what are the limitations of windows + cygwin comparing to a full-linux installation? --Yppieyei (talk) 20:56, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Cygwin is a windows program. It is NOT a linux program. The underlining OS is windows. (talk) 06:01, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
The question is not whether they are different, but whether they behave differently.
I use cygwin on my W7 box at work and I wouldn't be without it. I'm not trying to start a flame war, but I find the W7 search clumsy in syntax but more importantly unreliable, so I use grep in cygwin, which never fails. I also use the built in Perl and Perl/TK - we can't afford ActivePerl and my previous experience with Strawberry Perl hasn't been the best. Finally as a 25+ year Vi user, old habits die hard and this what I use for web development (my real job). --TrogWoolley (talk) 09:08, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
So, there is nothing you could do in Vi under Linux, but cannot do it in Vi using cygwin? There are not surprises, no packages that cannot be installed, or which last version cannot be installed, things that don't work, or things that only work with some hack? --Yppieyei (talk) 16:27, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
It depends on your definition of "things that don't work". For example, if a program running on Linux work just fine with POSIX-style file permissions on an Ext2 partition but fails with Windows-style file permissions on an NTFS partition, is that a "thing that doesn't work"? Most people would say no. How about the same program ported to Windows having the same limitations? Most people would call that a "thing that doesn't work". Cygwin actually does a lot better than that -- see and -- but some things just don't map properly and need workarounds. Try creating files named com1, lpt1, or aux (no file extension) in Windows. Now try it in Linux. Is that a "thing that doesn't work"?
Cygwin is pretty good at handling these sort of things, but it isn't perfect. I have had a couple of people recommend this page: [ ] but have not tried it myself. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:57, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Certainly 'vi' works identically to the same version running under Linux. There are many packages that can't be installed though. If, for example, you try to run 'GIMP' under Cygwin, it's a bunch of you install the Windows version and be happy. SteveBaker (talk) 22:16, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Most of the obvious stuff works identically to Linux - but if you stray into systems stuff (networking, user management, windowing) - then the cracks become obvious. File permissions are also a bit odd - but for a single user on the system, it's mostly OK. For 99% of basic command-line stuff, it feels identical to Linux. Most of the issues I have in using it are at the boundaries between the Cygwin world and, for example, the CR/LF line endings in Windows are not maintained by Cygwin, and Window's weird directory links aren't always there.
On the whole though - as a Linux guy - Cygwin gives me a way to work reasonably comfortably in a Windows world and it's the very first thing I install on a new Windows computer. I can't imagine not having it.
SteveBaker (talk) 22:16, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

July 4[edit]

gmail and spam[edit]

I have been sending emails to some friends of mine with gmail accounts. For one of them, the emails started being rejected as spam 2 or 3 months ago, but he did something that eventually resolved it. Today the same friend and a second one both had emails rejected.

I get a reply from my isp: (Real names and numbers replaced by *)

***.***.***.** failed after I sent the message.
Remote host said: 550-5.7.1 [      12] Our system has detected that this message is
550-5.7.1 likely unsolicited mail. To reduce the amount of spam sent to Gmail,
550-5.7.1 this message has been blocked. Please visit
550 5.7.1 for more information. j130si13215964qhc.51 - gsmtp

The message isn't spam. My account hasn't sent spam. Is there anything I can do about this? The 188131 help file is unhelpful, appearing to say "don't spam". -- SGBailey (talk) 07:03, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Can you tell us the title ? That might explain why they think it's spam. StuRat (talk) 02:49, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
This question reminds me of Steve Baker's email trouble last year. I don't know if he actually obtained any resolution. The reality is, big companies can afford to chase down spam filter errors; little guys (like small businesses and individual users) must live with some false-positives. Sometimes, Google will block your email, and unless you can afford the time and money to chase down the technical error every time, and force them to fix the issue, you must simply accept their spam filter policy.
Here's what the Free Software Foundation has to say about server-side software (like spam filters that run on Google's servers): Who does that server really serve? "With SaaSS, the users do not have even the executable file that does their computing: it is on someone else's server, where the users can't see or touch it. Thus it is impossible for them to ascertain what it really does, and impossible to change it."
In other words, everybody could run spam filtering (in fact, they can run all the software to operate their entire email infrastructure!) on their own local machine using free software. But few people do this: Gmail is too easy and they entice users into their service. Proprietary service vendors provide nice value-adds, like high reliability and free spam-filtering: but in exchange, you may never open up their black-box. The "benevolent service provider" has gained complete control over your email.
Nimur (talk)
So you are saying there is nothing I can do... -- SGBailey (talk) 06:12, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
You can invest loads and loads of time into your own email service. However, you have to keep in mind that email servers are not easy to manage, at least not securily. Besides the problem above, you could also have many security issues, unless you are working full-time to deal with them. And even then, your email server might be cracked by someone and used for sending spam mail. Indeed, it might be the case that your emails are tagged as spam because someone did exactly that. --YX-1000A (talk) 15:47, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Does such a program exist?[edit]

Suppose I have a set of picture files. I want to be able to see to another picture by clicking a certain area on a certain other picture (or pictures), offline. Kind of like how annotation on YouTube videos work. Is there a program that does that? In short, I want a set of inter-linked jpeg files. Seems like a simple thing so I thought maybe it's possible that there is such a program.

(The reason for this is that I write notes, by hand, in Photoshop (using a drawing pad), and I want my notes to be connected. I don't want to use another method for writing notes because there's already lots of notes written this way and I like it this way)--Irrational number (talk) 20:45, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

The HTML <area> Tag has some of the functionality you ask for, but that would require you to place the images in a HTML document. AFAIK the JPEG specification don't contain any way to make links in the picture - something a quick look online seems to verify 12.
Off topic; that is one way of taking notes I've not heard about before. I'm happy it works for you, even if it wouldn't work for me - my handwriting is pretty sloppy =) WegianWarrior (talk) 21:32, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Using the HTML area tag isn't so easy, it takes a lot of work to set each pic up like that. Instead, you might just create a copy of the pic and write your notes on top of the copy, using Microsoft Paint or some other program. You could circle an object and write it's name, for example. (You could also do this using layers, but that might again get complicated.) You could name your two versions pic0001 and pic0001_annotated, for example. StuRat (talk) 02:44, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
The closest thing I've seen is a WYSIWYG web editor. You will need to make a web page for each JPG - a page that just contains the JPG. Then, assuming your editor supports image maps, you add an image map layer to the JPG. Now, the editor will have some sort of tool to mark a section of the image and enter a link name - which will be the HTML document containing a different JPG. (talk) 11:34, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

July 5[edit]

Do computers compress their own information?[edit]

Are only data as files and data as streams compressed? Or do computers also compress the information in their microchips and RAM modules?--YX-1000A (talk) 15:49, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Some operating systems compress pages of RAM as they're written off to the swap (which can make sense because the rate at which CPUs have become faster is much greater than the rate at which disks have) - see Virtual memory compression. Unfortunately that article mostly talks about how it worked in the 1990s (when the CPU:disk speed ratio wasn't nearly as high as it is now); I can't find concrete numbers for how well modern solutions perform on modern hardware. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 16:53, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Nearly everything can be compressed! Files, display output, audio, even bulk data in RAM, can all be compressed. Modern computers use all of these tricks, and more!
Some modern hardware is able to compress data totally transparently, meaning the user never asks for a compression operation or even knows that one had been used! For example, here's a product brief for Intel 520 Solid State Drives. All data committed to nonvolatile storage is losslessly compressed! Intelligent software and firmware decides when and where to apply the compression, based on heuristics about file type and compressibility. Data can be compressed at block-level, file-level, and so on.
Intel computers compress the bits that get drawn to screen: here's a whitepaper on Frame Buffer Compression, which can be lossless or lossy. This reduces the bandwidth needed to transfer millions of pixels per second to a monitor, enabling cheaper monitor hardware to advertise higher supported resolutions.
Modern Intel computers that run Apple's OS X Mavericks operating system use virtual memory compression, which can take advantage of CPU- and memory-controllers that have hardware implementations of data compression technology. Data can be compressed at the granularity of memory pages or larger blocks. This means that each trip to a "physical address" is actually a pass through a compressor or decompressor - physical addresses are still virtual addresses, even in most parts of the kernel! This can improve performance and (in tandem with smart system control software) can also lower power. You can inspect a software-only implementation of vm_compressor, which manages when pages should be compressed; and with some imagination, you can see how to replace the CPU-intensive parts of the data compaction with a "free" call into a hardware accelerator (provided by your hardware vendor) that compacts the data for you. Here's a whitepaper by some smart engineers at Nokia who applied the same trick to compress cache data in Linux for ARM.
You can bet that there are even more hardware-optimized data compression paths hiding all over your modern computer. Peripheral I/O, image data, display hardware, audio input and output, network traffic, all probably get compressed, decompressed, re-re-recompressed, a few dozen times before the user application software ever gets to the "bits." This is one reason why it is so laughable to hear audiophiles or graphics professionals extolling the virtues of uncompressed audio or video! They have no idea how many millions of transistors are inside their digitally-controlled microphone or speaker, nor how many times their picture has been "color-corrected" or "de-noised," nor how many digital signal processor pathways have been transited, unless they have detailed schematics of every single piece of proprietary hardware! And because these kinds of hardware can be made from commodity transistor processes, built on microscopic technologies, companies throw these types of compression ASICs everywhere, in all kinds of data pathways. For some applications, the designers take great care to ensure bit-identical, lossless reconstruction - for example, bulk compression of virtual memory must usually ensure bit-perfect reconstruction; but in many many applications, bit-identical reconstruction is not actually required or implemented.
Nimur (talk) 19:47, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

July 6[edit]

Can iPhone 4s iOS 8.3 be set to receive all email as plain text, rather than html?[edit]

My overseas friend with limited email access got the iPhone 4s with iOS 8.3 working finally. The old phone rendered all email in plain text, which is about half the cost of html formatted email, since there is a charge for both data and minute usage. I suggested changing the email provider's settings (as I would with gmail), but apparently that is not possible. Is there a way to change the phone settings itself to accept/render only plain text? (I have googled this and found only the reverse, changing plain text to HTML, and know nothing about iPhones myself.) Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 02:40, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

This is not a feature of the built-in Mail application on iOS. In general, you can't force others to send you mail in your preferred format. At best, you can hope that they will send a multi-part email including a plain-text version; but you still generally need to download the entire message (including all alternate forms), even if you only view the plaintext. Therefore, this view option doesn't reduce your actual download size. And - if the sender doesn't send plain-text - there may be no "smaller" alternative to the HTML-formatted message!
Perhaps other third-party mail applications can provide alternate view options; but I doubt they measurably reduce network traffic.
I find it suspicious that rich text emails are in any possible way relevant to the user's total data usage. In just a few seconds, ordinary web-browsing on many modern websites will downlink thousands of times more data than a full day of sending and receiving HTML-format emails (for normal usage patterns). Are you certain that your friend is addressing the right problem in the effort to reduce data use? This entire effort seems predicated on a misunderstanding of the various orders of magnitude of data used by ordinary internet and email traffic.
Nimur (talk) 03:29, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
@Nimur: agree with everything you wrote. One thing that might make a difference is that HTML emails can include instructions to download and display images from another server. Turning those off could make a noticeable difference to data usage. Download of remote images can easily be switched off in your Mail app's settings. —Noiratsi (talk) 07:07, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Monitor view now in portrait instead of landscape[edit]

Hi all,

My new little kitten has a tendency to jump up on my desk and press random keys on my keyboard. While that's super-adorable and so on, she has now managed to rotate the monitor display by 90 degrees. The monitor's integrated stand is now located on its left instead of underneath it, as I write this. My monitor now looks like a giant, unwieldy E-reader with cords and stuff connecting it to my agèd PC.

My OS is WinXP, and I have a standard off-the-shelf LCD monitor. Initially I asked Priscilla (for that is my rescue cat's name) to re-set it, as she is obviously far more IT savvy than I am. We talked about this, but she declined to help, as she is currently occupied with ripping up the curtains, taking random naps, and being a purring machine.

I tried Start -> Settings -> Control Panel -> Display, but I couldn't find any option to turn it 90° back from portrait to landscape. Also tried monkeying around with the monitor's software. No dice with that either.

Tried turning my computer off and turning it on again. The WinXP splash-screen was in landscape format, but as it loaded, everything went back to portrait format.

What am I doing wrong here? --Shirt58 (talk) 12:12, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Have you tried Googling? --CiaPan (talk) 12:43, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Test a key combination Ctrl + Alt + . --CiaPan (talk) 12:46, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
It really should have been in one of the places you looked. Is there an "Advanced options" button ? StuRat (talk) 16:51, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Google says ...well, one of the pages found says, that it should be in screen's properties, not in Control panel/Display (that one is for hardware). Try mouse right-click on the desktop, choose Properties (the last item in the pop-up menu) and look there...
It might also be hidden in some separate program to control the graphic card driver. Try desktop pop-up → Graphics Options... Then for Intel driver a submenu Rotation, then four choices; for ATI card use "Catalyst Control Center", then Displays Manager → Rotation; for Nvidia call Nvidia Control Panel → Rotation (hints from
See also Microsoft Answers for 'rotate screen windows xp'. --CiaPan (talk) 17:17, 6 July 2015 (UTC)


July 3[edit]

Camera with built in selfie stick[edit]

Why don't camera manufacturer create a point and shoot camera with a built in selfie stick and a shutter button on the selfie stick itself? (talk) 01:09, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

(1) How do you know they don't? (2) Why don't you contact some major manufacturers and present them with your idea? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:51, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I thought most cameras had the standard tripod thread (not on cell phones). If it doesn't make it smaller, it's prbably not cost effective. A lot of feature decisions are based on differentiation and what people will pay for differentiation. If "built-in selfie stick" is a cool feature but not something people will pay more or at the same price allow market share growth, it won't get added because it adds to the BOM without an ROI. 3D TV's and 3D cameras are products that had higher BOM with little ROI and they tend to disappear from the market. --DHeyward (talk) 03:14, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
BOM = bill of materials (effectively manufacturing cost), ROI = return on investment (effectively profit). Smurrayinchester 08:23, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Are selfie sticks used for cameras? I know they CAN be used with a camera, but the only people I see that use a selfie stick are people who use their cell phone as a camera. (talk) 16:36, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
We do have an article on selfie stick. Apparently there are some specifically designed to use with non-phone cameras. I don't know if anyone has bothered (yet) to gather statistics on usage with cameras that have phones compared to cameras that do not have phones. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:12, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
One caveat could be that non-phone cameras tend to be heavier than phone cameras, which could make the leverage more difficult. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:08, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I wouldn't suggest that the selfie-stick be truly built in, as that would add weight and bulk when you don't need it. They could make one as an accessory that has a shutter button, maybe using Bluetooth to send that signal to the camera/cell phone. I'd use the standard tripod connection. Hopefully the camera/cell phone and selfie-stick could also be replaced independently of each other. StuRat (talk) 22:26, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Googling "digital camera selfie stick" indicates that there are selfie sticks for non-iphone cameras. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:14, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Measuring displacement, velocity, acceleration, jerk, etc.[edit]

Hi, we can measure the displacement of a body, we can also measure its velocity, but can we measure the derivatives of displacement wrt time of any order? Thanx! (talk) 10:03, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Displacement and velocity can be measured but only after we have defined the reference frame in which the measurements will be taken. This dependence on reference frame means these two measurements are always arbitrary - a person using a different reference frame will achieve different measurements. In contrast, force, mass and acceleration are not dependent on our choice of reference frame (at least in Newtonian mechanics). Different persons using different reference frames for the measurement of these things will all measure the same acceleration (and force and mass).
For example, a traveler in space or in orbit can turn on an accelerometer and read his acceleration (by comparison with zero acceleration he experienced when calibrating the accelerometers) but there is no similar device that will display displacement or velocity. Dolphin (t) 10:58, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
If we fix a reference frame (and we don't know whether or not it is an inertial frame of reference) then we can measure the (vector) displacement of an object in that reference frame at various points in time. If we make two measurements in a small enough time interval then we can *approximate* the instantaneous velocity of the object, and if we make more measurements in a small enough time interval then we can *approximate* its instantaneous acceleration, jerk etc. But I don't know of any way to actually *measure* instantaneous velocity, acceleration, jerk etc in a general reference frame. We can only use F = ma to measure acceleration if (a) we know the mass of the object - which requires a reference mass unless maybe our object is a fundamental particle - and (b) we know that our reference frame is inertial. Gandalf61 (talk) 11:24, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
See accelerometer. However, the acceleration due to gravity is included in that measurement, so you would need to do some vector math to remove that component, if near a massive body (like Earth). StuRat (talk) 16:04, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
... but to calibrate the accelerometer you need some independent means of measuring acceleration. Gandalf61 (talk) 16:19, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I don't really understand this comment, or your previous one. One second is 9192631770 ticks of a cesium clock, without reference to any standard timepiece in France. The kilogram is still a physical object, but only because of practical engineering difficulties. One m/s² could likewise be defined by the behavior of a particular kind of solid-state accelerometer, practical difficulties aside. -- BenRG (talk) 23:02, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps for acceleration he means that the acceleration due to gravity isn't always exactly 9.81 m/s2, as it varies a tiny amount by location (on the surface of the Earth) and elevation (and of course quite a bit more in space). So, for extremely accurate readings, you would want to calibrate it for your current location. The direction of acceleration would also be quite critical, so you would need a way to accurately measure the angle, relative to the pull of gravity in that location. StuRat (talk) 23:39, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Indeed. An accelerometer does not measure local acceleration - it measures displacement which it translates into force, and then it translates that force into acceleration. To show local acceleration the accelerometer has to be calibrated for a specific location to compensate for gravity and other non-inertial forces. Take an accelerometer calibrated for the Earth's surface and put it on the surface of the Moon and it will tell you that it is accelerating downwards at 5/6 g because it now measures a downwards force that is less than when it was calibrated. And to calibrate an accelerometer correctly you have to ensure it has zero local acceleration. And you cannot measure the local acceleration of an object directly, you can only estimate it from multiple measurements of displacement. Gandalf61 (talk) 08:27, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
If clocks measure local time, then accelerometers measure local acceleration. The reason they show an upward acceleration when sitting on a table is that the table is accelerating upward. There is only one correct (generally covariant) concept of acceleration in a general relativistic world, and that's what accelerometers measure.
The important thing is that "velocitometers" and "positionometers" don't exist, at least not as self-contained memoryless devices like accelerometers. The original question has it backwards in some sense. You can figure out an approximate spacetime velocity and position using inertial navigation, but you do that by integrating the acceleration, and you have to supply the boundary conditions (initial position and velocity) from outside because they're not intrinsically measurable like acceleration is. Jerk and higher derivatives can be calculated internally as time derivatives of the acceleration (with respect to an internal cesium clock). Velocity and position are the only problematic ones. -- BenRG (talk) 10:03, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Obviously the OP is asking about measuring position, velocity, acceleration etc. relative to a local co-ordinate system which will, in general, be non-inertial. So an answer that tells them that the table that they think is stationary has a proper acceleration of approximately 9.8 ms-2 upwards and this is the only covariant way to definie acceleration is factually correct but completely useless as an answer to their question. Gandalf61 (talk) 14:54, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
I can think of at least a couple of exceptions where we do measure position and velocity absolutely, and not as the integral of acceleration with respect to time. For example, an ultrasonic pinger (ranger), a gray coded position or rotary encoder, a Doppler RADAR, an altimeter, and a vertical speed indicator each measure absolute linear or angular position, or absolute velocity, directly - and not as a time derivative or as an integral of anything. These machines only work within certain limits, and depend on certain assumptions about natural physical properties; some of these properties are hardly universally true and it would be foolish to think that the measurements are valid outside of the intended range of operation; but the same can be said of any machine that measures any physical property - even if we are trying to think in a way that is consistent with general relativity! Atomic clocks are only accurate if we can disavow thermal noise; accelerometers usually do measure displacement, either by assuming some material property that defines a spring constant or electrostatic relationship; and so on. It's quite easy to say that a General Relativistic model is absolved from all such practical details... but try to build a device that is relativistically correct and has no dependence on any empirical assumption at all! It can't be done. Even if we look at famous tests of measurement of General Relativity - like Gravity Probe A - the precise measurements did not take place in a Platonic-idealistic world. When we test measurements of general relativity, we are still constrained by imperfections and assumptions that simply do not apply everywhere in the universe, and sometimes, our pure physics is even tainted by practical engineering details! Nimur (talk) 04:04, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure what type of question this is. Is it a tool question about measurement (i.e. do we have accelerometers, do we have displacement meters like the Plimsoll line on ships that calculate in time)? Or is it a relativity question regarding reference frames? Or is it a quantum mechanics question regarding Heisenberg uncertainty? The answer depends on which of the three (or possibly which combination) the poster is seeking. Displacement of a ship, for example is a pretty simple static calculation, but when under power and acceleration, displacement is compoinded by those forces in addition to things that affect mass per unit volume of water such as salinity and temperature. --DHeyward (talk) 00:58, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

I am familiar with two types of accelerometer. One uses a strain gauge to measure the deflection of a cantilever with a mass on the end of it. As such it measures down to DC, hence measures the acceleration due to gravity, even if the accelerometer is stationary. The other uses a piezo electric force gauge to measure the forces experienced by a small mass. These are typically used down to 3, 1 or 0.3 Hz (this is an instrumentation decision). Within those frequency limits they both measure the absolute acceleration, ie they are operating in an inertial reference frame.Greglocock (talk) 02:57, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Egg Hatching[edit]

How long should it take for Dove eggs to hatch? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:581:8400:9D36:CA2A:14FF:FE3F:3730 (talk) 15:34, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

It will depend on the species, you can easily google for results and add the species name for more specific info. But if your Dove Eggs hatch, you should film it and call the local news. μηδείς (talk) 11:47 am, Today (UTC−4)
[1] lists 15 days, but it might vary by species/subspecies. StuRat (talk) 15:53, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
It won't very that much though. The shortest dove incubation I can find is 12+/- 0.8 days, here [2], and the common mourning dove takes 13-14 days [3]. Interestingly, the little desert diamond doves in the first link are nearing a fairly absolute limit of about 11 days for any bird. This paper [4] discusses how many birds were reported to have 9-10 day incubation times, but those were probably due to bad methodologies, and not accurate measurements of real incubation. As of 1953, there were no records of any incubation under 11 days. I also couldn't find any good records of a dove species with a 16 day incubation period. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:28, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

July 4[edit]

Is the CMB a baby picture of only the observable universe?[edit]

Ilc 9yr moll4096.png

Is the Cosmic Microwave Background a "baby picture" of the entire universe or just the observable universe? If the observable universe is all we're able to see then isn't the CMB picture incomplete? Or can we extrapolate from the CMB how the entire universe appears beyond just what is observable? (talk) 01:59, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

The observable universe. Dragons flight (talk) 02:17, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
The CMB light that's just now reaching us has all traveled about the same distance, so its points of origin form a sphere centered on us. That sphere is the boundary of the observable universe. CMB maps like the one to the right are Mollweide projections of the sphere. So not only does the map not directly tell us about the universe outside the boundary, it also doesn't directly tell us about the universe inside the boundary. It does contain information about the interior because the light interacted with matter in the interior on its way to us, and it contains information about the exterior because the state of the plasma that emitted the light (about 380,000 years ABB) depended on the earlier state of the universe in all directions, including the directions that are farther from us than the source of the light. -- BenRG (talk) 03:25, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
The source of the microwave background is in the observable universe because we're observing it. That said, the concept of the observable universe is full of tricks. The distance back to the Big Bang in years/light years is real, but the later part of it is measured at a time when the universe is very small. Changes in the rate of expansion affect what is observable - to give a simple example, if the expansion slows down enough, then eventually everything becomes observable, even though it isn't now. On the other hand in a Big Rip eventually nothing is observable to anything else anymore. Wnt (talk) 03:32, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Hmmm, on second thought, I suppose that a trace of extremely redshifted radiation always exists (the sky before the Big Rip), much like the popularized image that things fallen into a black hole always remain technically visible. The light of the distant stars that has reached within a proton's radius of a nucleus never totally falls away (though a photon almost certainly will not arrive, you would never know it won't, I think) Which makes me wonder now... no matter what cosmic inflation occurred, if the universe was ever entirely observable to itself, I suppose it always remains so, technically? Wnt (talk) 00:57, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

How interchangeable are injection molding molds?[edit]

Plastic injection molding company usually follow the following protocol: give us your design and X dollars and we will design the mold and produce Y parts within Z weeks, at the end of which we will send you the mold. My question is, how interchangeable is the said mold? If I take the mold to a different company will they be able to use it? Will the mold produced for one brand of injection molding machine work with a different brand? Are there industry standards for mold sizes and interfaces, and if so, do they differ across different countries? I'm chiefly interested in making ABS parts. My other car is a cadr (talk) 04:00, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

For example, Toshiba America publishes a catalog for Injection Molding Machines that specifies clamp and platen dimensions. You can compare to other manufacturers, and check with each vendor to determine what equipment they use, and whether they permit you to supply your own mold.
Nimur (talk) 13:20, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Biology: What bird is this? (mp3)[edit]

I have heard this Mystery Bird in the media a few times, from the Dark Castle computer game to this recording, taken from the film The Last of Sheila. I thought maybe Whip-poor-will or Loon, but I can't find a match. Thanks! Reflectionsinglass (talk) 18:00, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

It's an owl hooting. The first bit is caught mid-call, but my guess is that it is a barred owl. Our description of the vocalization is accurate and you can hear the last few syllables fairly clearly at the beginning of the file. Matt Deres (talk) 21:36, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm afraid I have to disagree, that's definitely not the call. This call is used in multiple media forms and I've heard it since the 90s and it's never sounded like an edited version of a bird call. I appreciate the suggestion though. I went to the Cornithology site and listened to all the samples and it's not the Barred owl. However, it may very well be an owl of some kind! I'll keep my ears out. Reflectionsinglass (talk) 19:01, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
The "oooooo-d-d-d-d-d" call is most commonly a barred owl. They make many calls, this one being a mating call. When I was young, I'd hear it. Then, the response would be a rising "oo-oo-oo-d-oooooo-d-d-d-d". When I listen to the recording you linked, I don't hear anything that sounds at all different than the barred owls I heard growing up. It just has a bit of echo added to it to make it sound a bit creepy. (talk) 15:00, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
To me, it sounds just like a male Tawny owl response to a broadcast song by the female. I hear this just about nightly where I live.DrChrissy (talk) 15:08, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

July 5[edit]


The following is the statement of confusion: In the dense nebulae where stars are produced, much of the hydrogen is in the molecular (H2) form, so these nebulae are called molecular clouds.


  1. Does this mean population I stars are burning H2 and helium in its core?
  2. Which stars turned H into H2?
  3. ‘A still gaseous body before any star formation has taken place’ & an ‘over-dense region of dark matter in the very early universe’ – does this mean ‘the foggy universe’ time?

Space Ghost (talk) 21:06, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

H2 is the normal form of Hydrogen under reasonably cool conditions - e.g. on Earth. In this form, two hydrogen atoms share their electrons in a covalent bond. Under most reasonable conditions, H2 will form spontaneously. However, the H-H covalent bond is a chemical bond. At the temperature of stars, all chemical bonds break down, and indeed, even the bond between the H nucleus and its electron breaks down. Matter in a star is, nearly without exception, in the form of a plasma. The nuclear reactions that "burn" Hydrogen affect only the nuclei, not the electron shell, of hydrogen. Main sequence stars generally burn Hydrogen, but there are population I stars that have evolved far enough to burn Helium (but not H2) and have turned into red giants. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:08, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Star formation, Evolution & Mass[edit]

  1. Does it occur only in a giant molecular cloud? Doesn't it occur in a small/medium molecular cloud? Is it called the cold molecular cloud?
  2. Does a star's mass increase and decrease with its age, like 'temperature' and 'luminosity'? If so, how? - is it from accretion during its complete life time? How does the mass work out anyway? Does it depend on the chemical element?

Space Ghost (talk) 21:06, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

2. A stars mass will generally decrease with age. Solar wind gradually bleeds off plasma, and mass. This solar wind is driven by the nuclear fusion of the sun, which releases lots of EM radiation. When two nuclei combine to form a third nucleus, that third nucleus will have a mass of less than the sum of the two original nuclei. The difference in mass will result in photons (electromagnetic radiation, light, IR etc.) being given off. The photons leaving the star will also reduce the mass. The only chance of it increasing in mass is colliding with another star, or swallowing a large planet. Big stars burn faster than small stars, e.g. Betelgeuse is a very good example. Early stars with low metallicity burn slower than later starts. Martin451 23:48, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Is the reason a star moving through a cloud couldn't pick up mass, that the solar wind would blow the cloud out of the way ? StuRat (talk) 00:49, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
I would think that wouldn't be significant. The amount of mass lost to the solar wind is tiny/insignificant. If the cloud were much denser than the solar wind, the volume of the solar wind pressure would decrease as the solar wind heats it. I'm not sure what density it would take to move that pressure volume boundary to within the star itself. I would tend to think there simply aren't enough conic solutions that result in the collision with the star. How much mass does the earth gain from the solar wind vs. loss from energetic escapes? I think the loss of solar mass to both fusion and solar wind over the entire lifetime of the sun is about 0.1% or so IIRC (before Red Giant phase). The solar wind doesn't appreciably affect the orbits of planets. --DHeyward (talk) 08:45, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Strange things can happen in binary star systems - see cataclysmic variable star. Gandalf61 (talk) 10:13, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

July 6[edit]

Sleep immobility[edit]

Is sleep paralysis the same state when you fall asleep in a potentially unpleasant position (for example, with head pressing against your arm) and later start to feel numbness due to disrupted blood flow, but is unable to move or wake up? I'm healthy, but had at least one such experience in the past, and this is really a nasty thing. Brandmeistertalk 08:51, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

No, these are quite distinct phenomena. Sleep paralysis involves a more or less complete (though typically very brief) loss of volitional motor function for the whole body, usually occurring during either hypnagogia or hypnopompia (the transitions between full wakefullness to sleep and between sleep and wakefulness, respectively). It results from irregular function in the neural pathways which regulate these states of consciousness and restrict volitional movement when we sleep, lest we act upon mental stimuli while we sleep; sleepwalking, accordingly, is in some sense the inverse of this condition in which those circuits do not operate appropriately while asleep, allowing movement. Sleep paralysis is therefore more or less completely the product of the central nervous system. By comparison, a limb "falling asleep" from pressure on a nerve or the surrounding tissue (with the experience being clinically known as obdormition with regard to the numbness, and parathesia with regard to the telltale "pins and needles" sensation) does not usually involve significant impairment of motor function or proprioception and is best defined as a matter of physiological disruption of the relevant area of the peripheral nervous system (though similar numbness in limbs can, in rare instances, result from brain tumors or other CNS dysfunction). We all, of course, have experienced the sleeping limb phenomena every so often. Most people also have a memory of experiencing sleep paralysis once or twice in their life -- these events (or at least the fully conscious variations which one can later recall) are usually highly transient and exceedingly rare, but there is also a chronic version of the condition in which episodes can last longer and occur more frequently. I do agree, it can be an unsettling experience, even when not fully awake. Snow let's rap 10:20, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
@Snow Rise: I've always read that sleep paralysis affects motor function without mention of the sensory, and certainly people are sensitive to touch when asleep... yet I've had the personal experience during gout attacks of intentionally maintaining sleep paralysis in the lower part of my body for close to an hour (I think) after reaching wakefulness, during which there was no pain. It was only after "breaking" the sleep paralysis that the pain started. I'm still not sure of the explanation for this. Wnt (talk) 13:57, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Interrupted blood flow would mean limb death, not just tingling. It is sometime possible to tell which nerve is compressed or trapped by part of the limb is tingling. For example, it is sometimes possible to compress the nerve on the outside of the elbow through flexion. The middle finger, ring finger and pinky will go numb. A different posture compresses the nerve for the index finger and thumb and they will "fall asleep" in that position. A lot of people don't remember which finger and just remember "hand is tingling." The specifics are good for determining carpal tunnel syndrome or what type of sleeping posture fixes it. --DHeyward (talk) 11:28, 6 July 2015 (UTC)


June 30[edit]

Usefulness vs. naturalness[edit]

There is one special mathematical equation that is defined as such because it is useful, rather than because it is natural. This is that:

 0^0 = 1

Are there any other equations of this kind?? Georgia guy (talk) 15:14, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Sort of similar to 0!=1. See Factorial#Definition and empty product. I get what you mean, but I don't think the useful/natural distinction is very compatible with the axiomatic nature of math. Do you think the irrational numbers "unnatural"? What about the axiom of choice? Perhaps a better distinction would be "definition by convention" as opposed to "properties that directly follow from axiom and inference". It is by convention that we define the empty product to be 1, but it is also useful, and in some sense natural (what other choice could be more natural?) SemanticMantis (talk) 16:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
0!=1 is actually very natural. It is consistent with the combination of 2 facts: 1! is 1 and that n! is related to (n+1)! simply by dividing by n+1, and 1 divided by 1 is 1; it's not an indeterminate form. Georgia guy (talk) 16:09, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
They both come down to the empty product though... SemanticMantis (talk) 18:47, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Oh boy here we go again. Anyway, as I see it: whether  0^0 = 1 is natural depends on what sort of exponentiation you're thinking of. If you're thinking of repeated multiplication, that is natural-number-to-natural-number or real-number-to-natural-number or complex-number-to-natural-number exponentiation, then  0^0 = 1 is quite natural. That's because it's an empty product.
However, real-number-to-real-number exponentiation is a conceptually different operation. It cannot be viewed as repeated multiplication. In that context, the argument for the naturalness of  0^0 = 1 loses its force. (So, by the way, do most of the arguments for usefulness.) --Trovatore (talk) 16:27, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
You're implying that 0 is a natural number here, aren't you?? Georgia guy (talk) 16:42, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Oh, there are levels to that question :-). But in the sense I think you mean it, yes, like most set theorists and C programmers, I start counting with 0. It's the natural choice :-) --Trovatore (talk) 17:30, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
You mean, to you June is the fifth month of the year?? (More generally, January is the zeroth and February is the first.) Georgia guy (talk) 17:45, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
No no; I'm still speaking English. No one would understand me if I adopted that convention. But my loop indices start with 0, and the base case of most inductions/recursions is naturally indexed by 0. --Trovatore (talk) 18:06, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
An exponentiation
for cardinal numbers A and V represents the cardinality of a set of functions from a domain of cardinality A ('A' for 'arguments') into a codomain of cardinality V ('v' for 'values'). For example there are 10^2 functions from a two-element set into a ten-element set (those function may be represented e.g. as 2-digit decimal strings '00', '01',... '99'). Then 0^0 is a number of functions from an empty set (whose cardinality is zero, |\{\}|=0) into itself—and there is exactly one such function: the empty function.
Hence naturally  0^0 = 1 .--CiaPan (talk) 08:40, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

It helps to distinguish between an ordinal number and an index: Ordinal numbers (first, second, third, . . . ) start with 1 while indexes may start with 0.

Consider the polynomial

f(x)=\sum_{k=0}^n a_k x^k

The first coefficient a0 has index zero, and the first term a0x0 has degree zero.

The recursive definition for real-or-complex-number-to-nonnegative-integer exponentiation

x0 = 1 and x1+n = x·xn

defines 00 = 1 and 01 = 0.

The formula for nonzero-number-to-negative-integer exponentiation

xn = 1/xn

defines (–1)–1 = –1 but 0–1 remains undefined.

The formula for positive-real-number-to-real-or-complex-number exponentiation

a^x=e^{x\log a}

does not define neither 00 nor 01 nor (–1)–1. Some people leave 00 undefined. Strangely they don't leave 01 and (–1)–1 undefined as well. Bo Jacoby (talk) 09:12, 3 July 2015 (UTC).

Of course 0^1 and (-1)^1 are defined, it's not strange at all. \lim_{x\to 0, y\to 1}x^y=0 so 0^1=0 follows from continuity (you get 0^1=\exp(1\cdot \log0) = \exp(-\infty) which is 0 however you approach it). For (-1)^{-1} you don't need continuity, the direct definition is single-valued: (-1)^{-1} = \exp(-\log (-1)) = \exp (-\pi i+2k\pi i) which is -1 whichever branch you choose. Whereas \lim_{x\to 0, y\to 0}x^y depends on how you approach and doesn't exist, so can't be used for a definition by continuity of 0^0 - and the direct definition results in the indeterminate form 0\cdot\infty. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 10:00, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Very fast growing function[edit]

Define g(n) to be the factorial of n taken n times (again with the convention that g(0) = 1 due to the empty product). For example, g(3) = 3!!! = 6!! = 720! and g(5) = 5!!!!! = 120!!!! etc. (the factorial signs mean iterated factorials, not the double factorial or any related kind). Has anyone investigated this function before? In particular, is there an analytic continuation of it? Obviously it's an extremely fast-growing function; I might even conjecture that it's faster than tetration.

I came up with this when considering the generating function of the sequence of reciprocals, f(x) = \sum_{k = 0}^\infty \frac{x^k}{g(k)}. This surely has to be an entire function as I can't come up with any singularities for it and it converges absolutely and extremely quickly. My question for it is, is it elementary? More generally, how do we show whether a given function is elementary or not?--Jasper Deng (talk) 18:15, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the "faster than tetration" thing (though it might depend on what you mean exactly). It's a well known-riddle to show that a tower of powers of 9's is bigger than applying ! to 9 the same number of times. Of course x!>9^x, but 9^9>9!, and since the argument of the function is much more important than the choice of function, the gap is enough to make sure the factorials never catch up. This result should generalize easily. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 20:26, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
By "faster than tetration" I'm considering the question of \lim_{n\to\infty} \frac{g(n)}{^na} for any fixed value of a (not ^nn which I think grows faster than g). If g grows faster, then this limit increases without bound. For example, I am pretty sure that g(15) is greater than 159.--Jasper Deng (talk) 21:01, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
@Meni Rosenfeld: Discussion with others suggest that this is incorrect. Based on this calculator it would seem that g(9) is on the "order" of 810 and 99 is on the order of 710.--Jasper Deng (talk) 08:13, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Wolfram Alpha also gives estimates, e.g. [5][6], with g(9) > 99. Dragons flight (talk) 17:05, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
@Jasper Dang: It's not 99, it's 109. I didn't elaborate because I thought it would be clear from context, but the idea is that in both cases you start with 9 and then apply a function 9 times, the function is either x! or 9^x. The latter results in 109, which is bigger than the former, which is g(9). -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 17:57, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
But is this really nn then?--Jasper Deng (talk) 19:46, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
It's not, but in nn you are starting with n and doing n-1 operations, so it's unfair to compare it with g(n) in which you are starting with n and doing n operations. It appears that {}^nn<g(n)<{}^{n+1}n, so to answer the original question, I think it's safe to say that g has the same growth rate as tetration. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 07:58, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Also, generalizing g as follows provides a functional equation, just like for the factorial function. Let h(m, n) be defined as: 1 if m and n are both 0, m if n = 0 and m positive, h(m!, n - 1) if n > 0. Then g(n) = h(n, n).--Jasper Deng (talk) 21:48, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Here's more information about extending g(n) to g(x). Since 1 and 2 are fixed points of the factorial function, I believe that g'(1) = 1 - \gamma \approx 0.422784 which is the derivative of \Gamma(x+1) at 1, and g'(2) = (3 - 2\gamma)^2 \approx 3.406124 which is the square of the derivative of \Gamma(x+1) at 2. It should be possible to calculate g(x) for half-integers by using the functional square root of \Gamma(x+1). Using the formula on this page I get g(1.5) ≈ 1.253. Getting more digits is hard because of huge cancellations in the formula, but it might be possible using multiprecision. Egnau (talk) 14:23, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I guess, but I have my doubts that the functional roots can really provide a complete analytic continuation of g (what about g(π)?). It certainly would help to have a better closed form than just that. Also, I'm unsure of the derivatives you propose because for one, as the number of factorials is not constant one must also consider values in the neighborhood of 1 and 2, where the factorial isn't fixed; I also would probably not be satisfied with that interpolation because 1.5! = \Gamma(1.5 + 1) = \frac{3\sqrt{\pi}}{4} > 1.253, and the functional square root of the factorial should be an increasing function. --Jasper Deng (talk) 05:22, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I think that studying functional roots is your best hope of getting an analytic continuation. g(π) isn't a problem, Schröder's equation works for any real iterate.
I don't understand your issue with my derivatives. The derivation is elementary: let F(x) = \Gamma(x+1) and ignore terms in \epsilon^2 or higher. The effect of iterating F in the neighborhood of 2 is as follows:
F(2+\epsilon) = 2+c\epsilon where c = F'(2)
F^{[2]}(2+\epsilon) = 2+c^2\epsilon
F^{[3]}(2+\epsilon) = 2+c^3\epsilon.
We're interested in g(2+\epsilon) = F^{[2+\epsilon]}(2+\epsilon) = 2+c^{2+\epsilon}\epsilon = 2+c^2\epsilon
so g'(2) = c^2.
Also I don't understand your issue with my interpolation. Do you agree that
h(1.5, 0) = 1.5
h(1.5, 1) ≈ 1.329340
h(1.5, 2) ≈ 1.187710 ?
Why is my estimate h(1.5, 1.5) ≈ 1.253 out of place? Egnau (talk) 08:50, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
On further examination your interpolation seems to be consistent with my definition, though I still find it very hard to believe that g is not monotonically increasing for all n > 1... you would seem to imply that it is meaningful to consider \lim_{n\to\infty} h(1.5, n). Then there has got to be a turning point. Where is that? I'm still unconvinced by the derivatives (why is \lim_{\epsilon\to0}\frac{F^{2+\epsilon}(2+\epsilon) - F^2(2)}{\epsilon} = \lim_{\epsilon\to0}\frac{F^2(2+\epsilon) - F^2(2)} = (F^2)'(2)?) on the grounds that because I'm 100% sure g(x)>x! for all x > 2, it should be greater than that.
Note that I also realize that there are infinitely many possible ways to interpolate this analytically, although not necessarily with all the properties I desire.--Jasper Deng (talk) 17:07, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
My goal was only to compute enough values of h(1.5, n) to surround h(1.5, 1.5). I didn't consider taking the limit, but feel free to investigate.
I think that g(x) is increasing for x > 1. My g'(1) > 0 and g'(2) > 0 strongly support that. What did I write that contradicts that it's increasing?
I also believe that g(x) > x! for x > 2. I reported g'(2) > F'(2) which strongly supports that. What did I write that contradicts the inequality?
I agree that the way I get the derivatives is not completely rigorous, and I discovered that it even gives the wrong result in some cases. For example, 4x(1-x) has a fixed point at 3/4 with derivative -2. The continuous iterates for it are known and given in Schröder's equation#Applications. Computing the equivalent of g'(3/4) for it doesn't agree with my formula which gives a complex solution, probably because of the negative derivative. On the other hand, x/(2-x) has a fixed point at 1 with derivative 2, and \sqrt{\frac{1}{2} x^2 + 2} has a fixed point at 2 with derivative 1/2. I believe that these functions are complicated enough to test my formulas for bugs. Continuous iterates for these are given in Schröder's equation#Applications and Iterated function#Examples respectively, and the equivalent of g'(1) and g'(2) for them agree with my formulas: g'(1) = F'(1), and g'(2) = (F'(2))^2
I couldn't help it and I pushed my method to get formulas for the second derivatives at fixed points 1 and 2: g''(1) = 2 a_1 \ln a_1 + b_1 and g''(2) = 2 a_2^2 \ln a_2 + a_2 b_2 + a_2^2 b_2, where a_i = F'(i) and b_i = F''(i). I tested the formulas with the same two functions above with known continuous iterates, and they gave correct results. Applying the formulas to your problem gives g''(1) = 2 (1 - \gamma) \ln (1 - \gamma) -2\gamma + \gamma^2 + \pi^2/6 \approx 0.09573644 and g''(2) \approx 17.266561 (with a more complicated closed form). Assuming that my formulas work for your problem, it's pretty exciting to get closed forms for some derivatives. Egnau (talk) 21:52, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
It would seem that I forgot that for 1 < x < 2, x! < x. To me, (not to nitpick) it would still suggest that g'(1) != F'(1) because it seems that g < F for 1 < x < 2. It remains that I'm unconvinced about the way said derivatives were derived.--Jasper Deng (talk) 08:16, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
I agree that g < F for 1 < x < 2. It's fine to have g'(1) = F'(1) if g"(1) < F"(1) and according to my numbers the inequality holds for the second derivative: 0.0957364 < 0.823680.
I'm sorry but you've been extremely negative so far. It's as if your first reaction to a post is "ok, why is this wrong?", and you keep searching for something wrong until you make a mistake, and then you post your mistaken reason without double-checking it, ad nauseam. How about you change your approach and ask "ok, why is this right?" Sometimes it's better to replicate a result than to search for holes in someone else's.
Here's homework for you: start from formula (6) from Iterated function#Some_formulas_for_fractional_iteration. Set n = x because we're interested in f^x(x), and expand as a polynomial in (x - a). Inside of the expression you'll need to expand f'(a)^x as a Taylor series at x=a, but it shouldn't be very hard. Egnau (talk) 19:28, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm sorry if I'm negative but I'm skeptical of a result that's not entirely satisfying for my original intents and purposes. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not satisfied with a result that, at least to me, is counter to my intuition. Before saying anything else I will say that I am well aware that intuition doesn't fly in a lot of mathematics, unlike physics. But I want a "natural" result.
And with that I'm still going to contend that g'(1) != F'(1). By the way it's good that you admitted that the way you got the derivatives isn't completely rigorous. I'm not ready to consider an arbitrarily small application of F so I can't really say much in terms of taking the limit myself, but my intuition suggests that since g < F for x > 1 and g > F for 0 < x < 1, F's derivative should be greater there.
As for a Taylor series I think it would make sense if we expand around x = 1 or x = 2 as you seem to be doing. I think by now I need to throw away my result that g(0) = 1 because it would create a discontinuity.--Jasper Deng (talk) 19:46, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
I think that "obviously" g(0)=0, since you start with 0 and apply factorial 0 times, i.e. you apply nothing at all, so you still have 0. I'm not sure why you thought it should be 1. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 11:16, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Distance matrix[edit]

I have a set of strings and I want to compute the edit distance between all pairs in the set. Is there a more efficient way to create the matrix of distances than computing the Levenshtein distance for each pair individually? (besides the obvious distance(i,j) = distance(j,i)). (talk) 23:08, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Assuming that by "edit distance" you are referring to "Levenshtein edit distance", it is important to note that the order of the strings in comparison does not matter. Levenshtein(A,B) = Levenshtein(B,A). So, for string A, B, C, D..., the worst you could do is compare A to everything, then compare B to everything by A, then compare C to everything but A and B... The issue is trying to compare one string to more than one string. Doing so would not be faster using the standard Wagner-Fischer dynamic matrix solution - which is what most people use. You *could* compare one string to a N strings, but you would still make 3N comparisons per cell of the matrix. There is no benefit. To get an improvement, you need to sort the strings. Then, you have to get the longest common initial substring. If you have N strings that begin with "AHEKKDEG", you can compare a string to "AHEKKDEG" first. From there, you compare to the rest of the strings for each one. Then, you have a mostly complete matrix to work with from that point on. I personally wouldn't do it that way - too much work. What I would do...
  1. Sort the strings
  2. Compare string A to B (assuming that you call the first one A and the second one B after sorting).
  3. Get distance A-B and B-A from that.
  4. Replace the top of the matrix, currently holding B, with C - but note how many columns are the same as B (a lot since I sorted the strings first).
  5. Start my calculation of A-C and C-A from the first column of difference between C and B.
  6. Repeat for every string left - using the most precaculated columns as possible for each new string.
There is a problem here... Levenshtein functions are usually as optimized as they can possibly be. If you are writing your own, it will likely NOT be optimized. You need to look at the header file that includes your Levenshtein function and really understand the code so you can write nearly the same code. If you are using a scripting language, such as PHP, you simply cannot write code as efficient because the built-in function will be compiled, not scripted. Hopefully that is helpful. (talk) 17:44, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Least Symmetric Triangle?[edit]

Let T be the set of all triangles in the x-y plane with one vertex at 0,0, one vertex at 1,0 and one at x,y where y is positive and x>=.5. Let L be the set of lines in the x-y plane. let t in T and l in L be chosen. S(t,l) is the percentage symmetry that t has in l, defined as the percentage of t, where the mirror across l is also in t. (So if you chose an icosceles triangle ABC where AB = AC and l is the line through A and the midpoint of BC, the value of S(ABC, line(A->MidpointBC)) woud be 1. Any other line would of course be inferior unless the triangle was equalateral.

Let MS(t) = maximum over all l in L of S(t,l) (so MS(t) is 1 for any icosceles triangle t). What triangle t in T has the smallest MS(t) and what is that MS(t)?Naraht (talk) 23:21, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I have a hard time following your question, since "percentage symmetry" and "mirror across l" are both ill-defined to me.--Jasper Deng (talk) 23:47, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
The percentage symmetry for a triangle for a given l is the percentage of the triangle mirrored in l that overlaps l. If l doesn't intersect the triangle then the value will be zero.Naraht (talk) 00:03, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
That's still a bit ill-defined (it would be helpful if you could link an article on defining those terms). What does it mean for a triangle to overlap l? Are you talking about the ratio of area in t on one side of l to the area on the other side of l? In that case, the answer to your original question can be found by computing S as a function of the parameters that define l (namely its slope and y-intercept, or equivalently, two points along it) and the parameters that define t (the "free" point) and solving for \nabla S = \mathbf{0} for l that crosses t; any l that does not intersect t need not be considered. On obtaining the maximum of S for a given t, it then provides an expression for MS(t), which can be similarly solved as a function of the triangle's parameters.--Jasper Deng (talk) 00:25, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I think it's fairly clear what the OP is asking for. If T is a triangle and l is a line, let Tl be the reflection of T through l and define S(T, l) as Area(T∩Tl)/Area(T). Now define S(T) as the maximum of all lines l of S(T, l). The value of S(T) for a given triangle is well defined and there is some l for which S(T, l)=S(T). So see this, it's clear that you only need to consider lines which intersect T, so if l is parametrized as l(t, r) = {(x,y): cost x + sint y = r} the set of pairs (t, r) with 0≤t≤π and l(t, r) ∩ T ≠ ∅ is bounded and therefor compact. Then the question is, what is the minimum possible value of S(T) over all triangles T. We know 0 is a lower bound for S(T) so there is a greatest lower bound, S say. But it's not clear that there is a triangle T that achieves it. It's conceivable that there is a sequence of triangles that get longer and thinner where S(T) approaches S as a limit. In practical terms, finding the area of intersection of two triangles a bit tricky, so S(T, l) would probably have a complicated formula and not be differentiable. So unless there is some simple way of finding l for a given T, finding S(T) for a given T would involve some kind of optimization algorithm. On top of that, you want to minimize over T, so it sounds like a difficult problem. Not that it couldn't be done with some effort and a computer. Maybe a good first step would be to find a better lower bound for S than 0.--RDBury (talk) 14:36, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
OP here, thank you. That's exactly what I meant. Area(T∩Tl)/Area(T). The definition of what Triangles could be chosen from is because a triangle have the same S(T) even after both translation and expansion/contraction. For starters, (to see if this can be attacked reasonably), how would S(T) be calculated for a 3,4,5 right triangle?Naraht (talk) 18:08, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
We can define a unique placement for each triangle; OP presented one attemp, here is another one: let a ≥ b ≥ c denote the triangle's sides lengths; place vertex C in (0,0), B in positive X axis; then A is in a blue area bounded by the X axis, a x=a/2 line and the circle arc.
Seeking asymmetric triangle 1.png
If we want the reflected triangle to overlap the original one, the reflection axis must intersect the triangle. A triangle is a convex figure, so the reflection axis has to meet the triangle's edge at two different points. We can define a uniform coordinate along the triangle circumference, so that each axis is described with two real numbers – coordinates of intersection points. Then the common area is a {\Bbb R}^2\to \Bbb R function, continuous and piece-wise differentiable (the domain pieces will depend on vertices of Tl passing the T edges as l changes). However the number of pieces and their boundaries may depend on a:b:c ratios and it may be difficult to give a general algebraic description. --CiaPan (talk) 19:22, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
My understanding of the problem:
  • for any triangle t with fixed area and arbitrarily chosen reflection axis L, let t(L) be an image of t in the reflection;
  • let A(t,L) be an area of the intersection t\cap t(L), and A(t) be a maximum possible area: A(t)=\max_L\{ A(t,L)\}; then:
  • what triangle t minimizes A(t)?
Am I right? Is that what you mean? --CiaPan (talk) 18:05, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
More or less, I was using two fixed points to try to cut down on the fact that similar triangles would have the same answer, but using fixed area works as well. (Rotations also give the same answer).Naraht (talk) 18:13, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Here is a partial result: For any triangle T there is a line l so that if Tl is the reflection of T through l then Area(T∩Tl)>Area(T)/φ, where φ is the golden ratio. Proof: Let the triangle have sides a, b, c with a≤b≤c. Then a+b>c. Suppose b/c ≥ a/b. Let A be the vertex opposite a and let l be the bisector of A. Then both T and Tl contain the the isosceles triangle with vertex A and equal sides b. The area of this triangle is b2/2 sin A, so Area(T∩Tl)/Area(T) ≥ (b2/2 sin A)/bc/2 sin A = b/c. Now c/b-1 = (c-b)/b < a/b ≤ b/c. Putting x = c/b we get x>0 and x-1 < 1/x, so x2-x-1 < 0 and x < φ. ∴b/c > 1/φ. Now suppose b/c ≤ a/b. Let C be the vertex opposite c and let l be the bisector of C. As before, both T and Tl contain the the isosceles triangle with vertex V and sides a. Computing area as before, Area(T∩Tl)/Area(T) ≥ a/b. Now b/(a+b) < b/c ≤ a/b, a/b+1 = (a+b)/b > b/a. Putting y = b/a we get 1/x+1 > x, x>0, so x2-x-1<0 and x<φ. ∴a/b > 1/φ.
Judging from the constructions here it seems to me that attention should be focused on long thin triangles where the ratio of the shorter sides is around φ.--RDBury (talk) 08:06, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

July 1[edit]

Tennis problem[edit]

In tennis, players have a "first serve" action, which is faster and more difficult for the opponent to return but more likely to go "out", and a "second serve" action, which is slower and easier to return but more likely to be "in". A player's statistics include percentages of first and second serves "in" (call these respectively p1 and p2), and percentages of points won on first and second serves that are "in" (call these respectively w1 and w2). For example, if p1 = 0.6 and w1 = 0.8, it means that the player hits 60% of his or her first serves "in", and of the 60% that are "in", 80% result in the server winning the point.

In order for the p's and w's to "make sense", the overall probability of winning a point using a "first serve" action followed (if necessary) by a "second serve" action must be greater than the probability using any other combination of "first serve" and "second serve" actions (otherwise the player would be more successful using that other combination). In other words:

p1*w1 + (1 - p1)*p2*w2 > p1*w1 + (1 - p1)*p1*w1
p1*w1 + (1 - p1)*p2*w2 > p2*w2 + (1 - p2)*p1*w1
p1*w1 + (1 - p1)*p2*w2 > p2*w2 + (1 - p2)*p2*w2

I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that this is equivalent to

p2*w2 - p1*w1 > 0
p2*w2 - p1*w1 < p2*w2*(p2 - p1)

While the interpretation of the first of these conditions is straightforward (total probability of winning point on a second serve must be greater than total probability of winning on a first serve), I cannot formulate an interpretation of the second one. Can anyone see how to describe or interpret the second condition in a way that can be more easily visualised? (talk) 17:34, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

The left-hand side is the marginal increase in winning on a second serve, compared to a first serve. The right hand side is the probability of winning on a second serve, times the marginal increase in the probability that the second serve is in:
dW2 < Prob(W2)*dp2
I believe this constrains the largest possible increase in winning on a second serve to a function of how much more likely your second serve is to actually be in. You can also divide both sides by p2*w2 and get:
1 - (Prob(W1) / Prob(W2) < dp2
So that 1 minus the ratio of the winning probabilities on first and second serve (which is less than one, from the first constraint) is less than the marginal probability of getting your second serve first in, compared to the first serve.

I don't think this quite gets you there, but hopefully it helps. OldTimeNESter (talk) 18:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

July 3[edit]

Does mathematics invent or discover?[edit]

When something new appears in math, is it a discovery or an invention?--Yppieyei (talk) 13:55, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:56, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Some of each. There are basic laws of nature, like the value of pi. Those they discover. But there are also mathematical conventions, like there being 360 degrees in a circle, which mathematicians invent. (You can tell degrees are an invention because there are alternatives, like gradients and radians. You could use different approximations of pi, such as 3.14, depending on the accuracy required, but you can't just decide to use a completely different value, like 10, if you want to get correct answers.) StuRat (talk) 14:34, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
(ec) @Stu, the angle unit is a Gradian, not Gradient (although the gradient may be expressed in gradians, which in turn proves they are different notions). :) --CiaPan (talk) 15:22, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. I guess I misheard it, and it's only listed as "GRAD" on calculators, which doesn't help to clarify it. StuRat (talk) 15:33, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
See Philosophy of mathematics, particularly §Mathematical realism and §Mathematical anti-realism. -- ToE 15:18, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
...and for an extreme version of mathematical realism see Max Tegmark's mathematical universe hypothesis, which asserts that every conceivable mathematical object physically exists somewhere in some universe, and they are all that exists. Gandalf61 (talk) 15:49, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Quite extreme indeed. I'd like to see the number 2. I can see two apples, and I can count to two, but the positing the physicality of the abstract concept is a bit much for me. I assume he has never produced such a number for us to consider... SemanticMantis (talk) 17:27, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Tell me what the difference between invention and discovery is and I might have a chance at distinguishing between them. Dmcq (talk) 16:26, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
We have articles at invention and Discovery_(observation) that explain the common distinction. Usually we'd say something like the Nucleic_acid_double_helix was discovered, while the cotton gin was invented. It would be weird and basically incorrect to swap the terms in that case. Math is of course much murkier (and this question is indeed perennial), but OP has plenty of reading links above if they are interested. Some math examples that might be tolerable to many mathematicians - the infinitude of primes is better described as being discovered, while the Markov_chain_Monte_Carlo methods can be described as being invented (or not - please let's not bicker about my examples too much - I'm not making any bold categorical assertions about philosophy of math, just trying to demonstrate that in some cases both terms can be reasonably used in math). SemanticMantis (talk) 16:56, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I say that math is discovered - it is all already "out there". The example of 360 degrees in a circle given above is just a convention. That isn't really mathematics. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 06:44, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Math invents some of its axioms, e.g. Axiom of infinity, being the base of whole Modern Mathematics.
Note that if the set S of mathematical universal axioms - had reflected a convention only - so that every mathematical theorem T should have only been interpreted as "T is provable from S", then there would have been no difference - between the weight of any mathematical axiom - and the weight of any hypothetical assumption like "The current French leader is a king" (and likewise), hence there would have been no difference - between the weight of any mathematical theorem - and the weight of any consequence deriving from any hypothetical assumption like "The current French leader is a king" (and likewise). HOOTmag (talk) 07:17, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

July 5[edit]

zeta function[edit]

Why multiplied Riemann equation Gamma by Zeta equation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:35, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Because of the identity
\int_0^\infty e^{-nx}x^{s-1}\,dx = \Gamma(s)n^{-s}.
So, summing both sides for n=1 to infinity gives:
\int_0^\infty\frac{x^{s-1}}{e^x-1}\,dx = \Gamma(s)\zeta(s)
where \operatorname{Re}(s) > 1 and \zeta(s) = \sum_{n=1}^\infty n^{-s}. Sławomir Biały (talk) 21:23, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Measuring an angle in a letter N[edit]

Angle N.svg

Hello. From time to time, I do projects which involve constructing letters of the alphabet. Most of the time, I measure and eyeball the sides and angles. But I got to wondering about calculating an exact angle. The one that causes me difficulty is the letter N. I try to get the diagonal to line up with the verticals, and I can do it by trial-and-error. But even knowing trigonometric functions, I can't figure out what to input. I measured the angle in red by hand and got approximately 30.743°, but can it be calculated knowing only the other measurements shown? Thank you.    → Michael J    23:02, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

The angle is \alpha = \tan^{-1}((21+\sqrt{57})/48) = 30.7436831\ldots^{\circ}. To find it, let x be the vertical distance between the two diagonal lines. You have x=\frac{1}{\sin\alpha}, and also \frac{3}{7-x}=\tan\alpha. Solving this gives the result. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 23:40, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
I am astonished that your hand measurement was accurate to one-thousandth of a degree! (talk) 23:51, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
I was about to comment the same thing, but User: beat me to it. That is some impressively accurate measuring you are doing there! Good job! :) —SeekingAnswers (reply) 09:22, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. But I still have a question. How does one determine what is x (The vertical distance between the diagonals, as you say) knowing only the measurements marked? (I would like to know in general terms, in case I need to construct letters of different dimensions.) Thank you.    → Michael J    11:30, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
x is also found from these two equations (two equations in two unknowns. Can be reduced to a quadratic equation using trigonometric identities). In this particular case x=(3\sqrt{57}-7)/8=1.95619\ldots. To generalize to other shapes, try to figure out why the equations are correct - I can't really explain without drawing, but it shouldn't be hard. The numbers 1, 3 and 7 in the equations are taken from the measurements; the 1 is the diagonal thickness, the thickness of the vertical bars is irrelevant. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 13:28, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

July 6[edit]


June 30[edit]

What happened to the US?[edit]

These things are totally forgotten, just like erased from history, very strange.

--Lexikon-Duff (talk) 02:21, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

They are both very much part of the US government:
1) Mergers of large companies are regularly reviewed, and often rejected, when they will lead to a lack of competition, or, in the case of media companies, a lack of independent voices.
2) The Social Security Administration is perhaps the most lasting effect of the New Deal. StuRat (talk) 02:33, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Also still very much part of history. Erased things don't have Wikipedia articles, let alone well-sourced ones. Do you mean erased from history class? If so, I don't know much about that (even if they're taught or not), but, in general, there aren't enough hours in the school day for most important events. Even American history is very long. Can't teach every kid every thing. Even Wikipedia can only try. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:47, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
Don't forget the FDIC! Neutralitytalk 04:31, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I believe that the uncovering of the 2015 FIFA corruption case was the result of the application US antitrust law. Alansplodge (talk) 08:49, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
And United States v. Microsoft Corp. was not so long ago either. It received a ton of media coverage. --Xuxl (talk) 09:42, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Also the more recent United States v. Apple Inc. which didn't perhaps receive quite so much, but still a fair amount. As Sturat has said, antitrust law also comes in to play with most major mergers. Even if it doesn't stop the merger or result in additional conditions, it's the reason (in particular the Clayton Act 1914 I think) why such mergers need approval. (Note also, the lack of rejection or additional conditions isn't an indication the law isn't doing anything, the companies themselves will consider such issues before proposing a merger so may not propose a merger unlikely to be successful or may have already agreed to do something to satisfy government concerns.) Of course in the modern world it usually isn't just US anti-trust law that comes in to play.

In the case of the New Deal, it's difficult to watch much Fox News, or read other US conservative news without seeing some discussion of how the New Deal destroyed America/prolonged the great depression and how Obama is doing the same thing in some way.

So as with many others, I don't understand the OPs question. I don't live in the US and was well aware of these probably since my mid teens. (Well at least US antitrust although that was difficult to ignore as this was the time of the MS case.)

Nil Einne (talk) 14:18, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

One date "they" don't tell you about is June 18, 1958. The day Homer J Simpson died. Note, students, the J stands for nothing. Even a Findagrave site search on Google for "homer j simpson" doesn't find him. But he was real, once. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:33, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
In other news, US Air Force Major General Chester E. McCarty (this guy) took three jackrabbits, two horned toads and an armadillo to Portland, Oregon. He returned to Waco, Texas with a porcupine and a beaver. Elsewhere, a bridge fell. How many fifth-graders know that? InedibleHulk (talk) 10:45, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
You mean, present or past fifth-graders? By the way, the zoo swap happened the day before the article is dated, that would be June the 17th. That would be a reason to desesperate, while in fact there are plenty of them if not just targeting the same Google research date. --Askedonty (talk) 12:26, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
In real time, a day before. But when reviewing history, perception is reality. Nobody knows the news till it's fit to print. Many things were in the zeitgeist that week, but in my eye, flying armadillos deserve the recognition as much as any southbound pachyderm. I'll bet no birth notice in any paper mentioned "Jello Biafra" was born. But he was real, later. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:42, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
Marty Haggard, a constant value following birth notices, whom we don't know what the tale would be if he'd decided exploring alternative realities, was born on the 18th, not the 17th: now him real right from the start, and at the same time, we are now reading the news only a long time after they have been pushed (or after he's been shot by a hitch-hicker, imagine that.) --Askedonty (talk) 23:37, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I saw this guy released an album and song called "The Bridge" 42 years after the other bridge released, tried to scrape some nutjob meaning from the lyrics, and wouldn't you know it? I knew the Internet would forget history, but to see lyrics disappear is more troubling than missing LOLcats. Guess I'll just have to chalk another one up to the Mothman instead. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:14, July 1, 2015 (UTC)
I could find the song on Youtube and I think '42' means only the guy was 42. If you're doing Christian simplicity music, the Bridge it's a bit one of the doctorates. Now you can still reason he chose the style deliberately. --Askedonty (talk) 03:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
same as happened to old-school Leftism in general. Got replaced by social justice warriordom and market fundamentalism. Also, stuff (at least electronics) actually getting cheaper (or becoming more advanced for the same price) thanks to China (which helps dull people's suspicion of cartel activity) Asmrulz (talk) 14:31, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't understand the question. These topics are covered in standard U.S. history texts used in U.S. schools today. Check any major text and you will find them. Marco polo (talk) 14:58, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Story checks out. At least for the New Deal. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:56, June 30, 2015 (UTC)

Merry Christmas![edit]

I'm pretending to be in Australia, where Christmas comes in early summer :-) Do we have any coverage of "Joseph dearest, Joseph mine"? I'm not finding much under that title, "Song of the crib", or "Josef, Lieber Josef Mein", but as with any obscure work translated from another language, I don't want to assume that these are the only names under which it might appear. Nyttend (talk) 14:50, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Christmas is always on December 25th, regardless of the hemisphere, right? I found this on Google. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:24, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
No, it isn't on 25 December in Russia or in Ethiopia. All together now, "Do they know it's Christmas time at all?". Itsmejudith (talk) 15:33, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Yea, in some Eastern European sects Christmas is in January, but that has nothing to do with which side of the equator you are on. The side of the equator inverts the seasons, but not when Christmas is. Therefore they have Christmas in summer south of the equator. That might seem strange to us in the Northern Hemisphere, but keep in mind that Bethlehem is close enough to the equator that it wouldn't be likely to have snow any time of the year, anyway, and that we really don't know when Jesus was actually born. StuRat (talk) 15:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Not entirely unheard of [7]. Mikenorton (talk) 14:22, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Some eastern churches, such as Russian Orthodox, still go by the Julian calendar rather than the Gregorian. So they still celebrate Christmas on December 25th, Julian, although it's into January, per the standard calendar. The civil calendar was changed to sync with the west, after the "October" (actually November) revolution which put Lenin in power. Lenin and his pals did a lot of bad things, but at least they made the civil calendar run on time. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:04, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
There is actually Christmas in July or alternatively Mid Winter Christmas (which isn't necessarily in July). That said, while I can't comment on the situation in Australia, I don't think it really gets much attention here in NZ except among various places looking for a way to make money (generally places associated with snow, and eateries). Actually I think Matariki probably gets more attention in recent times. Nil Einne (talk) 14:08, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
We have an article on the translator credited on the page you linked Percy Dearmer. He published three hymnbooks in his lifetime (1906, 1926 and 1928); two have online versions but I can't find this hymn in either of them. However if you can get the third; Oxford Book of Carols, it seems most likely.
(Nevertheless, I found at least one mention of this song title before any of those books were published: [8] (1898).)
Anyway, most useful information I found was in the German wikipedia article on the original hymn. [9] It says the tune goes back to a Latin one that we have an English article on Resonet in laudibus, which says the words have been credited, but far from definitively, to Johannes Galliculus (couple of references in that article). On the other hand, the German article says the words were likely by Monk of Salzburg.
The German article also says the song is attested in five medieval manuscripts, and links to one of them dated c. 1420 [10]. Another reference (Ludwig Erk, Franz Magnus Böhme (Hrsg.): Deutscher Liederhort. Band 3. Leipzig 1894, S. 643 f.) dates it to c. 1400 and there's an unreferenced claim that puts it in the mid-12th century as part of a Christmas play (no English article, but see [11]). (talk) 16:42, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

July 1[edit]

In the Horus article where is the section about Horemakhet and how does it related to the Great_Sphinx_of_Giza[edit]

Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Venustar84 (talkcontribs) 23:23, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

The sphinx one says "hor-em-akhet" means "Horus of the Horizon", and was another name for the kitty. The Horus article doesn't mention it, or if it does, it hides as well from me as you. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:38, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
Yes. Horemakhet was a form of Horus who represented the sun. He was one of several Egyptian sun gods, the best-known of which is Ra, who is very similar to Horemakhet, though not so much to other forms of Horus. There are no Egyptian texts that refer to the sphinx from around the time it was built, but in the New Kingdom, a thousand years later, it was called Horemakhet. Lions were symbols of the sun in ancient Egypt, and the sphinx is assumed to represent the king who built it (probably Khafre or perhaps Khufu) taking the form of a sun god like Ra or Horemakhet. The New Kingdom name for the sphinx therefore loosely fits with the meaning that its sculptors probably meant to convey. Here is an article with more details about the sphinx's meaning. A. Parrot (talk) 01:34, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Questions of the form "Why is XXX not in Wikipedia/this Wikipedia article?" (and the passive-aggressive variant "Where is XXX in this Wikipedia article?") almost always have one or both of the following answers:
  • Because nobody has written it yet: if you have reliable published sources, why don't you go ahead and put it in?
  • Because there aren't enough reliable published sources for it, so it can't be written. --ColinFine (talk) 12:06, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Also possible that someone wrote and sourced it well, then someone else deleted it for any of many reasons (not just good ones). InedibleHulk (talk) 23:55, July 3, 2015 (UTC)

Les Chants de Maldoror public domain English translation[edit]

The title says it all: is there a public domain English translation of Les Chants de Maldoror (The Songs of Maldoror) by the Comte de Lautréamont?--The Theosophist (talk) 12:34, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

The article lists one published in 1924 - which will be public domain in the U.S. in 2019 (without further changes in the laws). Rmhermen (talk) 14:36, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Showing skin[edit]

Women's clothing in the west has developed so that more and more skin is shown, i.e. cleavage legs etc. How did this development occur? (talk) 13:58, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

History of Western Fashion is the general article, but all these are also relevant: mores, hemline, dress code, Shorts#Sociology, Neckline, Cleavage_(breasts), Buttock_cleavage. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:10, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Also Modesty has some nice historical context, both worldwide, and in western countries. These trends go in cycles. 10 years ago the young women on large university campuses in the USA were often exposing the tops of their butts - whale tail. Today, that is much less uncommon, but instead it seems ((WP:OR)) more acceptable to show expose a bit of the bottom of the buttocks - underbun (redlink, plenty of google hits. I'd think it's notable enough for an article if whale tail and buttock cleavage are, but that's another discussion). SemanticMantis (talk) 18:15, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Double negative alert: "less uncommon" = "more common". StuRat (talk) 01:11, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Oops, totally opposite meaning of that I intended. Corrected now, thanks, SemanticMantis (talk) 13:20, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Part of the trend may be due to women working in more fields today, some of which require less clothing, due to heat, or specific cases, like a lifeguard, who can't get dragged down due to the weight of heavy, wet clothes. However, working women in other fields may need less revealing clothes, like pants. But, once you establish that women could wear different clothes in different circumstances, personal preference starts to play into their selection, too.
Another factor may be that tans became fashionable for women, where previously pale white skin was desirable. However, more recently, the link of tans to wrinkles and skin cancer may reverse that trend, leading women to wear more clothes, at least outside. StuRat (talk) 01:16, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
This sounds plausible enough (though needs confirmation). I think more relevant though is the question of what effect (if any) veiling has on visible aging. Has someone gone through and measured wrinkling in women of a fixed age in a Muslim country depending on whether they'd worn the veil throughout their lives or not? Wnt (talk) 12:20, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Also: "The West" is wide and contains cultural variances and differences. Latin culture, Anglo-Saxon culture, Nordic culture, Japanese culture, American culture, etc etc, tend to handle women's clothing fashion in various and different and opposite ways. Akseli9 (talk) 10:12, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

It's interesting to see what "fashion in -" articles we have. We have Fashion in the United States and Fashion in India but no Fashion in Japan or Fashion in France or Fashion in England. This situation probably reflects some of our bias in coverage. We do have Japanese street fashion. SemanticMantis (talk) 13:24, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

July 2[edit]

Ptolemaic numbers[edit]

I am looking for a table of Ptolemaic numbers and their modern counterparts (1, 2, etc). Not a system of planets or tides, just the actual physical numbers, 1-20 if possible. If you can find them please tell me what I should have entered into the Google search engine also! :) (talk) 00:18, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Just to clarify, are you looking for how the numbers 1-20 were written in an ancient language ? Ptolemy was Greco-Egyptian, in Alexandria while it was under Roman control, so do you want ancient Greek, ancient Egyptian, or Latin, from that period ? StuRat (talk) 01:06, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Our articles on the Almagest and Geography (Ptolemy) say that both were originally written in Greek, so presumably Greek numerals would be the form used. In fact, that last article has a map from the Geography which shows the use of Greek numerals. Interestingly, it's a decimal system, rather than being like Roman numerals. MChesterMC (talk) 08:16, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Terminations and buy-back[edit]

I've just learned Macy's ditched Donald Trump, as did NBC. The network will also no longer air the Miss USA and Miss Universe Pageants. (Trump still owns half of the Miss Universe Organization.) By any chance, will somebody hired by CBS, buy Trump's half, as well as the broadcast rights to both pageants?2604:2000:712C:2900:5090:B7FE:BF98:2807 (talk) 03:48, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

It's not the job of the Reference Desk to make predictions. -- (talk) 06:47, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Let me rephrase the question. Since Macy's and NBC ditched Donald Trump, does that also mean the Miss Universe Organization have done the same thing, as well?2604:2000:712C:2900:5090:B7FE:BF98:2807 (talk) 07:53, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Their statement (pdf press release available from does not say they have. (talk) 09:33, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
There still seems to be an open question of whether those entities had the legal right to do what they did, so even the stuff that's been done already, could eventually be nullified. Or not. So there's no way to predict. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:30, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Using that approach, we would be loath to report that anyone has ever been convicted of a crime, because there's always the possibility they could appeal, be successful, and become un-convicted. No, I think it's best to report what is, and let what may be may be and deal with it when and if it ever becomes is. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:00, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

At least one of the pageants has already been picked up by an independent cable network, which doesn't rule out their return to one of the "big 3" but probably makes it unlikely for the near future at least.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 01:19, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

India-Bangladesh border deal[edit]

Is there anywhere online that I can see a map showing the results of the recent border deal between India and Bangladesh? From what I can tell, Google Maps still displays the pre-deal situation. --Lazar Taxon (talk) 22:56, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

India–Bangladesh enclaves was on the front page here three weeks ago. μηδείς (talk) 00:10, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Okay, but that article only has maps showing the pre-deal situation. I'm asking if there are any maps showing the outcome of the deal. --Lazar Taxon (talk) 01:22, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
It's interesting that the bill itself [12] does not contain a map, though all the pieces of land are described very exactly. Anyway, a recent map *was* made, according to the bill: as determined through joint survey and fully depicted in the respective adversely possessed land area index map (APL map) finalised by the Land Records and Survey Departments of both the countries between December, 2010 and August, 2011. I can't find whether this map has been made public though - can anyone else? (talk) 03:14, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
This question would probably interest Wikipedia:WikiProject India/Members (especially User:Amitrc7th and User:Anuomkara and User:Copperchloride and User:Harsimaja and User:Kondi and User:LRBurdak and user:Ninney and User:Planemad and User:Vin09; also User:Amartyabag and User:Arijit109 and User:Tamravidhir). Also, it would probably interest Wikipedia:WikiProject Bangladesh/Members (especially User:Crtew and User:Freemesm).
Wavelength (talk) 02:50, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
This question would probably interest Wikipedia:WikiProject Geography/Project volunteers (especially User:Cooper-42 and User:Funandtrvl and User:Laurinavicius and User:Ridoco234). Also, it would probably interest Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries/Volunteers (especially User:Dwaipayanc and User:Funandtrvl and User:Kirananils and User:Naveenpf and User:The Way).
Wavelength (talk) 03:31, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
These links might be helpful: —>
Wavelength (talk) 03:44, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
You can ask a librarian at the Delhi Public Library (
Wavelength (talk) 04:42, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
According to this article: Bangladesh and India – Mapped out, the people in the enclaves will be given the choice to which 'side' they will be on, along with citizenship. So, the map wouldn't exist yet, and I don't know what timeline the people have been given to make their choices. Funandtrvl (talk) 15:05, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
As I understand it, the residents can chose which country they want to be citizens of, but the actual enclaves themselves will be exchanged no matter what - if you wanted to remain an Indian/Bangladeshi citizen, you'd have to move to contiguous India/Bangladesh. Smurrayinchester 07:00, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

July 3[edit]

Joseph Lane[edit]

Besides his pro-slavery views, why was Joseph Lane chosen as the Southern Democrats' vice-presidential candidate alongside John C. Breckinridge in 1860? Was their a strategy of using Lane's Western (Oregon) and Northern (Indiana) affiliations to curry votes in non-Southern states?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:01, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

That might be, but regarding the 1860 Baltimore convention however, things were not at all as much clear cut as they became at the time of Secession. Daniel S. Dickinson from New-York for example, gave his support to Breckinridge. --Askedonty (talk) 15:18, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Baikonur, Kazakhstan - status[edit]

What is the status of Baikonur? Is it Russian territory or Kazakhstani territory controlled by Russia. The article seems a bit confusing. Hack (talk) 07:12, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

According to this article in The Atlantic from June 2013 [13], The town exists in a strange state of political suspension. When the Cosmodrome was built, it was squarely in USSR territory. Today that land is Kazakhstan, and Russia rents the town from the Kazakh government for $115 million a year. (talk) 13:39, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Whiskey barrels on the American frontier[edit]

I'm in the middle of writing an expansion for the Yost Tavern stub, and according to this historical text, in 1809, the tavern's customers purchased more than fifty barrels of whiskey. Was "barrel" a standard size at the time (e.g. the 31 or 31.5 gallons of a fluid Barrel (unit)?), or does it simply mean that Mr Yost dispensed the contents of thirty-one whiskey casks? Perhaps there was a standardised size for taxation purposes, but Whiskey Rebellion tells me that the 1791 federal excise tax on spirits was repealed in 1801, so I can't rely on its definitions. Nyttend (talk) 17:57, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Since barrels were used to transport liquids at the time, they would have needed to be standardized to avoid people getting cheated (and also so you would know how many fit on a given wagon, etc.). However, that doesn't necessarily mean the standard was 31 or 31.5 gallons. There might have even been regional variations in the standard size. StuRat (talk) 23:10, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Barrels were made by "coopers" - simple logic posits any given cooper kept to specific sizes based on measurements of his tools, as otherwise it would be nearly impossible to make a non-leaky barrel. As this was a "trade" - coopers in any area would have had to keep to the same standards. Collect (talk) 23:47, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Not necessarily a single size, though. They could have had several. StuRat (talk) 00:07, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
According to this book [14], Ohio had no laws about standard measures until 1811. You can scroll back back a few pages to get an idea of the standards that applied in neighbouring states at the time. (talk) 01:33, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

What are the reasons for the placement and position of the numbers on the face of a clock?[edit]

Recently, some incident (irrelevant and unimportant) sparked my curiosity about these matters. Question One: Is there any rhyme or reason as to why the numbers on the face of a clock are placed in the way that they are? In other words, why does "clockwise" go around from the top 12, moving (somewhat rightward) to the 1, then the 2, then the 3, etc.? Counterclockwise goes the other way (somewhat towards the "left" and down from the 12). Is there any practical or logistical or ergonomic or historical reason for this? Once the standard was set, of course, everyone simply followed that standard. But, when it first started (i.e., clocks were first created), there was an affirmative decision to place the numbers in the positions that we now see. Question Two: Same question as above. With the added question, why did they place the "12" at the very top? I am (obviously) referring to a round clock face. I scanned this article (clock), but I didn't see anything (unless I missed it). Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:36, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

'Clockwise' follows the movement of the sun in the northern hemisphere - and accordingly follows the shadow on a sundial. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:39, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. And what happens in the southern hemisphere? The exact opposite? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:42, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
The Southern Hemisphere is well known as a place of heathens, pagans, convicts, sports champions and other assorted riffraff, and nothing important ever happens there. Just forget about it, I say. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:53, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Ah. Never a truer utterance said. Also, their TV soap operas are an offense to the sensibilities of all cultured people as well  ;¬)--Aspro (talk) 21:15, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I think Larry Wilmore may be positing that the Southern Hemisphere might be the Northern Hemisphere.[15] Bus stop (talk) 21:49, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes - sundials are different in the Southern Hemisphere. [16]. Collect (talk) 21:56, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Ancient Egyptian sundial (c. 1500 BCE) from the Valley of the Kings. Daytime divided into 12 parts.
There is a ton of info here History of timekeeping devices though you have to sift through it to find specific answers to your questions. MarnetteD|Talk 22:07, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
As for why the 12 is at the top, that's where we normally start things, like reading from the top of the page. Keep in mind that the 12 is also a 0, from a time before we had such a concept. But, the day still started there (as did afternoon), whether it had a zero of not. So, then why do we normally start looking at an object from the top ? Well, it certainly would seem odd if you started looking at a person's feet before their face, since feet don't display emotions or talk. Perhaps that started the pattern ? StuRat (talk) 23:03, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
My question wasn't so much "why is the 12 at the top, instead of somewhere else?". My question was more along the lines of "why is the 12, and not some other number, at the top?" Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:00, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Before the decimal system was invented, it was convenient to use numbers that could easily be divided to yield integers. 10 hours in a day would fail if you tried to divide it by 3, while 24 can be divided by 2, 3, or 4, so you could set guard shifts every 12, 8, or 6 hours without having to worry about minutes. (At night, without sunlight, they could use a version of an hourglass.) So why two divisions of 12 hours ? Well, noon was a convenient point to split the day in two, as you didn't even need a sundial to tell when it was noon, since that's when shadows are shortest (this method no longer works because of time zones and daylight savings time). StuRat (talk) 13:04, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
You are not understanding my question. Say that we have the exact clock face that we are now accustomed to. But, instead of a "12" at the very top, there is a "7" at the very top. (Or whatever number) So, the clock would appear, clock wise, 7 (at the top), 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 1 (at the very bottom), 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. Or, with whatever permutation, given the "new" number at the top. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:33, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
I guess I still don't get your Q then. I answered as to why the day starts at the top of the clock, and why the start of the day is a 12. What else where you asking ? StuRat (talk) 22:47, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
When "they" designed the face of the clock, why not place a "7" at the top-most position? Or a "4"? Or whatever number? If I were designing a clock (so that it wold be similar to reading a book, for example), I'd probably place the "1" where we now normally place the "9". To me, that would seem the most analogous to "normal" left-to-right reading of text. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 14:57, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
@StuRat: I guess I still don't get your Q then. I answered as to why the day starts at the top of the clock, and why the start of the day is a 12. What else where you asking? In other words, why are you assuming that the day should "start" at the top-most position of the clock (that is, where we normally place the 12)? Why can't the day "start" at some other position? Like placing the "12" at the normal "6" position? Or placing the "12" at the normal "9" position? Or whatever? The day does not have to "start" at the top-most position of the clock face. (That's merely a convention.) Or, is there a reason why it does? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:01, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
"...that's where we normally start things, like reading from the top of the page... So, then why do we normally start looking at an object from the top ? Well, it certainly would seem odd if you started looking at a person's feet before their face, since feet don't display emotions or talk. Perhaps that started the pattern ?" To add a bit more, some might have read a scroll from right-to-left or left-to-right, but I don't think anyone read from bottom-to-top. That would either require completely opening the scroll to start reading it, or perhaps writing upside-down on the inside side of the scroll. A "double scroll" (with two hubs) fixes this problem, but I don't think those are good for long term storage, as the exposed area will be likely to age faster. StuRat (talk) 15:36, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Really 12 on the stereotypical sundial should be "down" (nearer). If it were up then your shadow might get in the way. The Sun is highest in the sky when the shadow's at the top of the dial and is lowest when the shadow's theoretically at the bottom but I'm not sure if your body shading the gnomon every noon is worth it. Maybe the most common sundial when and where clocks were invented was a more body shade-resistant type? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:18, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
That would totally screw up the poster for Tomorrow at Seven. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:29, July 4, 2015 (UTC)
Let's first discard placements considered starting at the left or at the right. If the one was at the top, the twelve would seem to be waiting to take the place of the one. Now let's try any other possible sequence: they all seem highly arbitrary. Is that of being conditioned by the two first tests ? (there was only one) --Askedonty (talk) 19:12, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
It is also where midnight would be, on a conventional vertically-mounted sundial, if sundials actually worked at midnight. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:05, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
If a sundial works at midnight, it doesn't work at any time (or what used to be times), including midnight. It would stick at "all the time", and nobody would ever need to buy one. Scary stuff. Less clear whether planes would fall from the sky, Y2K-style, but maybe! InedibleHulk (talk) 00:17, July 4, 2015 (UTC)
A sundial could work at midnight near the poles, or even in space, provided it had at 24 hour rotation period about it's axis, and it's axis wasn't pointed toward the Sun. StuRat (talk) 02:03, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure if that makes sense. Maybe. All I know is sundials need light and midnight needs darkness. Turn! Turn! Turn! InedibleHulk (talk) 02:21, July 4, 2015 (UTC)
See Land of the Midnight Sun. StuRat (talk) 12:56, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Definitely catchier with "midnight", but it's not night. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:26, July 4, 2015 (UTC)
Presumably you could make a "moondial", but would have to be re-oriented daily, as the moon is only overhead at midnight when it's full. And as the moon gets dimmer the rest of the month, the moondial would be hard to read. So probably not worth the effort. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:19, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
We've a moondial article. Unsourced, though. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:26, July 4, 2015 (UTC)
The full explanation is given in the article clockwise, which has some interesting snippets about clocks that move in the opposite direction. Am adding this pic from the article MarnetteD linked - the oldest known sundial. (talk) 23:42, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
According to Clock face, the way it was set up imitates the way it appears on sundials. That, of course, raises the question of why it's at the top on a sundial. As suggested by others here, the 12 is also a 0. And at high noon, local time, the straight-overhead sun produces no "angular" shadow, so to speak. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:16, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
See Gnomon - the gnomon is at an angle such that a shadow is cast (other than exactly at noon at an equinox exactly at the equator). Collect (talk) 11:25, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
According to 12-hour clock, the conventional division of the day into two sections of 12 hours each, with the 12s being noon and midnight, goes back to ancient times. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:25, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 14:50, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

July 4[edit]

Approximate number of STANAG magazines manufactured annually in the US[edit]

I'm trying to find the approximate number of STANAG magazines manufactured annually in the US. Alternatively, the number of such magazines sold annually would also suffice as an approximation, since imports and exports are essentially negligible. I found some excellent data[17][18][19] regarding the number of firearms manufactured, but can't seem to find any useful data regarding firearm magazines.

I asked this question previously. My other car is a cadr (talk) 00:04, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Crossing the floor[edit]

Have there ever been (recorded) instances of an MP changing party affiliaton in the midst of a debate and literally crossing the floor?--The Theosophist (talk) 03:15, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Winston Churchill crossed the floor publicly, to the applause and boos of the appropriate sides; I don't know if this were in the middle of a debate, but it was a literal floor-crossing. Nyttend (talk) 03:19, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
You sure about that? Source I'm looking at says Churchill "entered the Chamber and, without prior notice, sat on the opposition benches with the Liberal Party." On the other hand, "In 1981, Christopher Brocklebank-Fowler concluded a speech by crossing the floor to join the Social Democratic Party from the Conservatives." Traditions and customs of the House: House of Commons Background Paper. --jpgordon::==( o ) 05:06, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
It's been several years since I read of the incident; apparently I misremembered. Nyttend (talk) 22:45, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
It's happened numerous times in the Australian Parliament (the relevant section of the House of Reps Practice is here). It can be a career-ending or -limiting move, but some pollies still have principles. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 03:34, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

What is the correct term for this relationship?[edit]

I am trying to identify a cousin-related term for the daughter of the sister of my mom's brother's wife. Can someone help me on this? (talk) 09:11, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm presuming the relationship is between you and her? I'd consider she was your cousin-in-law, but there's no blood or legal relationship between you. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:35, 4 July 2015 (UTC)


Adam Agatha Luke Laura
Betty Ben Charles Corinda Mark Maud
David Emma Nicola
[ec] See Cousin#Additional terms, and the diagram under "Maternal cousin". The relationship you describe is that of "David" and "Nicola" in that diagram, who, according to the article, "would only be related if they share a common ancestor." To spell it out:
Your mom's brother ("Charles" in the diagram) is your uncle.
Your mom's brother's wife ("Corinda") is your aunt-by-marriage.
Your mom's brother's wife's sister ("Mark" in the diagram - a brother rather than a sister, but it doesn't affect the relationship) is not related to you by blood or marriage (although it's reasonable to call her an "aunt"). Neither is her daughter ("Nicola") related to you; it's reasonable to call her a "cousin", but she'll only be something like a twenty-sixth cousin, and finding that number will mean tracing back your aunt-by-marriage's family tree until it rejoins yours. Tevildo (talk) 09:39, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Step-cousin ? StuRat (talk) 13:11, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
There's no way to tell from the chart how far back the connection could be. The ones at the top could be siblings or first cousins or whatever. Lacking further info, in cases like this they're "in-laws of in-laws", and it's convenient to consider them "cousins" as the term "cousin" covers a lot of ground. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:57, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
My mother's family (quite large and complicated) jokingly uses the phrase "the in-laws and the out-laws" when collectively referring to those who have no direct blood relationship, and yet are considered part of the extended family. When referring to these "relatives" individually (or when addressing them) we simplify things by using the catch-all "cousin"... as in: "Good to see you again, Cousin Fred". Blueboar (talk) 15:00, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Unless I am missing something, Nicola is David's cousin's cousin. This situation came up often when I was young, and that's how we always expressed the relationship. μηδείς (talk) 21:01, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

How do I find the SET-plan budget[edit]

On Energy_policy_of_the_European_Union#SET_Plan, the article (before my edits) mentioned that the SET plan budget should be out in late 2008. I searched EUR-Lex but I could not find it. Can somebody tell me how to find something like that in EUR-Lex? --Ysangkok (talk) 19:46, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Naming of 61 Communards shipyard in Odessa[edit]

There is a shipyard in Mykolayiv, Ukraine, named during the Soviet Union for "61 Communards". I've just read the Communards and Paris Commune articles, but I can't find any reference to a group of 61. Guessing they might have been victims of a summary execution during the reconquest of Paris by the regular army, but can anyone confirm that? (talk) 20:15, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Just as a point of order, or something like that, since starting to learn Russian it's always annoyed me that we translate names involving "imeni" as such awkward Boratisms. The meaning is clear, and it's not like we don't name things after heroes or events in the West. Written from fairly close to "square in name of great battle Trafalgar", London. (talk) 20:28, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
This might be better on the article talk page, but the most official name of the shipyard is "State Enterprise 'Shipyard named after 61 Communards'", according to their website. Other sources use more reasonable translations, such as "The 61 Communards Shipyard", which might be a better title for our article. Finding information to answer the OP's question isn't proving easy - would it have been announced in Izvestia? Tevildo (talk) 09:14, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Ah! According to this article (which calls it "the 61 Communards Shipyard"), it was named after "strikers who took it over and closed it down during the 1905 Revolution." So, no connection with Paris apart from the name. Tevildo (talk) 09:24, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
According to this article, "When on July, 14th, 1905 [ OS ] the rebellious battleship [ Potemkin ] has lifted mutiny, workers of Nikolaev have supported the risen seamen mass strikes." This may have been the incident that Stalin decided to commemorate. Tevildo (talk) 09:46, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, while I have nothing to contribute to this, I just NEED to exclaim that I toured part of this shipyard yesterday. Amazing coincidence. (talk) 09:26, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
You can see the Monument of the 61 Communards here, although they seem to have only got around to two of them. Alansplodge (talk) 13:12, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Do illegal migrants have good reason to head for the UK, as opposed to other stable countries?[edit]

Another one! :-) There are now several thousand illegal migrants hanging around the ferry port in Calais, desperate to get into Britain by any means available. Regardless if they would all qualify as proper refugees, I'm not disputing that they had sensible reasons for wanting to get into Europe. But by this point they are in France, and presumably most have come through other European countries to get there. Are they completely deluded in holding out for Britain, or does it make sense for them to resist claiming asylum somewhere on the Continent? (talk) 21:40, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

English is the international language of business. They might figure they'll fare better immersed in that than French, German or whatever. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:21, July 4, 2015 (UTC)
What a ridiculous, unsourced piece of guesswork. Try this article instead for some actual answers, e.g. admiration of British society, perceived less racism, existence of ethnic communities that they can fit into, perceived better state education, number of minority ethnic MPs, etc. --Viennese Waltz 22:46, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
I've added a source, less ridiculous now. Immigrants to the UK must pass an English test. French immigrants must pass a French test. If there's more English in the global media (and it seems there is), it stands to reason more people could more easily pass the English one. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:03, July 4, 2015 (UTC)
But who says they're "illegal migrants"? You have to actually cross the borders of a country, and do so contrary to the laws of that country, to become "illegal". If all they're doing at this stage is contemplating migrating to the UK, there's nothing illegal about thinking. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:31, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
The French and UK governments say they're illegal as they have entered France (and the EU) illegally and wish to further enter the UK illegally. Nanonic (talk) 00:10, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Nothing illegal? Seriously though, have we considered whether they think snow's a real good thing? Britain's a bit colder than Africa and South Asia, but nothing compared to mountain Europe's chilling effect (literally, not this). InedibleHulk (talk) 00:48, July 5, 2015 (UTC)
There are many reasons, chief amongst those reported is the lower unemployment rate compared to France (that is, they believe they would have better job prospects in the UK). Tied in with this is that a lot of them know a small amount of English but no French at all so the UK is more attractive. A third reason is that it is seen to be easier to declare a wish to seek asylum in the UK. Some also mention the hostile attitude to them in France. See [20], [21], [22] and [23]. Nanonic (talk) 00:10, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
See also this on Asylum shopping and the Dublin Regulation. Nanonic (talk) 00:17, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
For a very general and possibly useless answer, consider everything's tendency toward the path of least resistance. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:13, July 5, 2015 (UTC)
Well actually it's the path of MOST resistance, because France and most other EU countries are in the Schengen Area, so once you're inside, there are open borders; however, the UK won't be doing with any of that malarky and still has border controls at the English Channel which serves us "as a moat defensive to a house, Against the envy of less happier lands". Alansplodge (talk) 08:13, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Not exactly the easiest path, geopolitically, but not as hard as trekking to Northern Scandinavia. Particularly if they don't like snow and prefer speaking English. Also remember, any path that doesn't lead to the right destination is a dead end. Water is fine flowing that way, but humans are far needier. They'll take the easiest path to where they want to go. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:54, July 6, 2015 (UTC)
My point is that once you get inside the Schengen Area, you can legally go where you like, however to get to the UK you have to conceal yourself on a lorry somehow, a process that has killed several wannabe Britons. Alansplodge (talk) 13:16, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

July 5[edit]

When was Vostok Island claimed by the UK?[edit]

The best sourcing I can find is that a "Mr John T. Arundel" claimed Vostok Island for the United Kingdom in 1873. Does anyone have any idea if it's possible to find the specific date and what it might be? The best I can conceive is going through the archives of Parliament for 1873-4 and seeing if it was mentioned but that seems an excessive amount of work that may not even pan out. --Golbez (talk) 02:44, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Arundel also claimed Flint Island for the UK in 1881, again without any specific date; would love to know that as well. --Golbez (talk) 03:10, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
We do have an article on him: John T. Arundel, which lists several sources. Rojomoke (talk) 06:22, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
I wonder if it was related to the Challenger expedition, which was in those parts in early 1874? Alansplodge (talk) 17:02, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Order of competing claims[edit]

(I am not sure if this is the right place, if not, I would be happy if someone directed me to the correct place)

In many articles, in WP:ARBPIA, there are competing claims. The UN says something, Israel says something, the Palestinians say something etc. Is there some guideline as to which order these claims should be presented in a section? See for instance, the dispute here. Kingsindian  09:18, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Raymond Lubitz[edit]


The final chapter of the book Anarchy, State, and Utopia lists a number of individuals. One of them is "Raymond Lubitz". Who is Robert Nozick likely referring to? The name could be misspelled (for example the same list includes "Hugh Hefner" spelled with two "f"'s). If it helps, the entire list is as follows: "Wittgenstein, Elizabeth Taylor, Bertrand Russell, Thomas Merton, Yogi Berra, Allen Ginsburg, Harry Wolfson, Thoreau, Casey Stengel, The Lubavitcher Rebbe, Picasso, Moses, Einstein, Hugh Heffner, Socrates, Henry Ford, Lenny Bruce, Baba Ram Dass, Gandhi, Sir Edmund Hillary, Raymond Lubitz, Buddha, Frank Sinatra, Columbus, Freud, Norman Mailer, Ayn Rand, Baron Rothschild, Ted Williams, Thomas Edison, H. L. Mencken, Thomas Jefferson, Ralph Ellison, Bobby Fischer, Emma Goldman, Peter Kropotkin." Gabbe (talk) 10:11, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

The economist Raymond Lubitz (1937-1984). He was Assistant and Associate Professor of Economics at Columbia University (from 1967-1973), a member of the Federal Reserve Board (1973-1984), and Chief of the FRB's World Payments Economic Activities Section (Division of International Finance). In 1971, he co-authored International Economics with Peter Kenen. Nanonic (talk) 10:24, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
One of the essays of Socratic Puzzles was dedicated to Raymond Lubitz, the economist. So it seems you are spot on. Thanks for the quick response! Gabbe (talk) 10:55, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Pansexuality and Cochin[edit]

How come the so called Pansexual pride flag is directly copied from the flag of the Kingdom of Cochin? Is this just a coincidence or is there any Indian spiritual inspiration for the new flag which has led to this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:50, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

It was conceived by JustJasper on Tumblr in 2011. Might be worth asking her there. Nanonic (talk) 15:57, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
No. According to the sources here at Wikipedia it was concieved in 2010. (talk) 16:52, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Well that's odd because I got that info directly from the sources on the Wiki page itself. Even now, if you go to the original Tumblr page here it states that JustJasper created it in 2011. Nanonic (talk) 16:59, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Flags Of The World has different shades for the colours for Cochin [24].
Sleigh (talk) 16:02, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
No source make any claim to have the right colours, as far as I can see. (talk) 16:59, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

I can't find anything on LGBT topics and Hinduism either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:33, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Is there any reliable source for even the existence of that Cochin flag anyway (let alone the precise shades)? I can see none. Fut.Perf. 19:30, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

This site traces the flag (with the colours "red, yellow, and turquoise", rather than pink, yellow, and blue) back to a book entitled "Nations Without States", written by James Minahan in 1996. We don't have an article on Minahan, but his works are frequently used as references here. The site mentions that (for this book) Minahan does not cite any sources. Apart from that, all references are to the image on Commons and our article. Tevildo (talk) 21:46, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
But even the crwflags site says that Minahan is describing that tricolor as "the Keralan national flag", not the flag of Cochin. And the difference between red and pink is too big to make this count as the same flag anyway. Plus, we are talking about a state established in the 13th century; the idea that such a state (outside Europe) should have had a tricolor "flag" (of any color combination) falls into the category of "extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence" (the tricolor format being a decidedly modern, European convention); the same goes for the European-style "coat of arms" given on the page. I'm removing both from the article. Fut.Perf. 05:05, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Maiden names as middle names[edit]

When did it become established that married woman use their maiden name as middle names, e.g. Hillary Rodham Clinton, Michelle Robinson Obama? I'd never heard of this practice before, but it seems to have become common in recent years. Zacwill16 (talk) 13:09, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, the articles about middle names and married and maiden names are pretty poor about things like that, aren't they? My impression is that this sort of naming has been going on for some decades in the US, but has become more common there. But do I have a cite for that? Certainly not. -- (talk) 19:15, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
It was certainly a common-ish practice in C19th Britain. It can be a useful aid to tracing family history. Mjroots (talk) 19:18, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Double-barrelled name has some relevant information. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 19:23, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Not quite the same thing, but having the mothers' maiden name as the childs' second forename is not unusual in Wales - my mother, her brother, and her sister all had "Jones" as their second forename (dating from around 1920). --Arwel Parry (talk) 00:13, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
The same happened in my family (Scotland and Cornwall) - although my mother's middle name is MacKay, her grandmother's maiden name. Alansplodge (talk) 09:14, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm reluctant to add WP:OR, but this might help direct further research. When my American parents (Mother from Georgia, father from New York) married in 1947, my mother took her maiden name as her middle name, and while she is no longer around to ask, my father says that it was not an uncommon practice at the time. -- ToE 00:03, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Not WP:RS, but this discussion suggests that it is a long standing Southern tradition. -- ToE 00:13, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
And this article says that about 25% of American women marrying today follow this practice, and that it is most common in the Northeast and the South. -- ToE 00:20, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
In my family (Northeastern US) the custom certainly goes back to at least the second half of 1800s ... All four of my Great-grand mothers took their maiden names as a middle name when they married. Blueboar (talk) 01:26, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Has a confederation of nations ever been stable when it has central law/monetary policy but not redistribution of resources?[edit]

Looking at the Greek crisis, I find myself doubting that the Greeks are part of Europe presently. I mean, they might be EU members and part of the euro and such, but when Europeans hear they have a 25% unemployment rate and 25% contraction of their economy, their response is typically to ask what the Greeks can cut to pay interest on debt, i.e. thinking of ways for money to flow out of Greece. This isn't how I'd expect one's fellow countryman to think. Fundamentally, in a federation of poor and rich countries, I'd expect that the rich will find ways to write law, monetary policy or whatever to suit their needs; this means that the poor countries must either receive some kind of free money, or else it is in their benefit to leave the union altogether. Only if the confederation were maintained by brutal force (Ireland in the UK), or else in name only, or maybe just a free trade pact or alliance, would it be possible to maintain, I'd think. And in practice, of course, to get NATO off the ground there was the Marshall Plan, and the U.S. likewise put money into Puerto Rico to encourage development, and West Germany poured a fortune into East Germany after unification as I understand it. Contrarily, the U.S. under the original Articles of Confederation, and quite probably the Confederate States of America, were what I would think of as unstable.

But is this any sort of valid observation, or can you point to a counterexample? Wnt (talk) 22:00, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Switzerland has very limited redistribution among its cantons, which, like European countries, also may differ in language. The main difference is a shared identity and a federal government with a small redistributive role. Marco polo (talk) 14:50, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

July 6[edit]

Jules Dumont d'Urville in Manga Reva[edit]

When was Jules Dumont d'Urville, Jacques Marescot du Thilleul, and his crew of the Astrolabe on the island of Mangareva (Manga Reva) in the Gambier Islands? Exact dates if possible. I'm trying to date when these sketches were made which was when they were on the island. It seems to be somewhere around August 1838.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:20, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

You are right. The book is set up with the dates in the margins; 1838 is the year for Chapters XXI to XXIII, which recount their stay at Mangareva and août means August. The two ships Astrolabe and Zélée arrived on Aug 2 at night at Aka-Marou/Wainwright island. They left on Aug 15 from Manga Reva. (talk) 10:07, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Is it known yet what will be the last state to perform its first same sex marriage?[edit]

I think a state can say that they will start doing SSMs as soon as they can change their own laws or print forms that say husband and husband or abrogate their constitutional amendment or something like that. And some states have part time legislators, with a months long vacation. After that they might have to waiting periods. Have they all set timetables for their first SSM yet? A state can't gay marry a person if there's no provision for it in the state's laws, right?

If a state not in the four sued wanted to drag this out as long as possible could it make excuse(s) until they lose all credibility and then at least one gay couple in each state would have to sue each state in federal court to force them to write gay marriage laws or something? And if the legislature somehow still refuses what are they going to do? Cut off their funding? Can Congress change the law for the state if their legislature feels like they're defending God by refusing? What if our Republican Congress doesn't want to do anything about it? What if Bush was president and the Republicans were in power when the Supreme Court decided so nobody wanted to do anything about it? The Supreme Court can't really do anything, they're just 9 people. (If a marriage clerk refuses to follow his state they can threaten to fire him or find someone in the state who will (by emergency training of new marriage clerks if necessary). But if the state doesn't want to marry gays and the state is the only thing that can marry people then what could be done if the Congress and President are anti-gay marriage enough?) Who will win, people who think they're sinning if they don't or people who realize what a horrible third world country-like precedent that'd be setting for the rule of law in America?

Has a government ever tried to do anything like this against a Supreme Court decision (besides segregation)? They could at least grant marriage licenses with a 10000 year waiting period on gay marriages only and then wait to be sued again, right? I'm not sure if the Supreme Court decision specifically addressed that. (Sorry if my writing sounds like a Michael Bay movie (if Michael Bay was a lawyer)). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:39, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

No, Michael Bay edits for people with short attention spans. Ten quick cuts per explosion. To be like him, you'd need a paragraph for each of your fourteen questions. This is more like Alexander Sokurov. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:54, July 6, 2015 (UTC)
I was thinking of his very over the top scenarios like the Rock, Armegeddon, The Purge and The Purge:Anarchy. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:19, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Then you may be right. I didn't really read the scenario, just skipped to the end and counted the question marks. Not to be rude, but blocks of text simply aren't appropriate for general audiences, even with parental guidance. (Which state will be last to give equality to incestuous gays?) I'm not saying cut anything, but some line breaks would be nice.
Anyway, not trying to hijack the question, just saying. I'll let those who sat through it say the rest. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:28, July 6, 2015 (UTC)
Do you like the OP's questions? Do you like them here or there? Do you like them in a house? Do you like them with a mouse? Do you like them in a box? Do you like them with a fox? Do you like them with a goat? Do you like them in a boat? Do you like them on a train? Do you like them in the rain? Do you like them in the park? Do you like them in the dark? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:08, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Where did I say anything about incest? And you know what a local government did when the Supreme Court said school segregation is unconstitutional? They just stopped running schools at all for a year or two and subsidized private schools (or the white parents?) so even poor white kids had school and blacks had no school at all. Most of them dragged their feet for years or only had token integration for the next 20 years and the Supreme Court kept having to give stronger judgements. I've hardly stepped foot in a red state much less lived there so I don't know where realisticness stops. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:14, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
You didn't mention gay incest, I did. In the "parental guidance" pipelink. It's a Sokurov film. Not the clearest statement. Did I say something about segregation, or was that you? InedibleHulk (talk) 04:26, July 6, 2015 (UTC)
I just wanted to show how crazy US conservatives can get when the Supreme Court declares something they really like unconstitutional. Florida declared it null and void (the governor sided with the rule of law, though). Prince Edward County closed its entire school system from 1959 to 1964 in a Virginia-wide campaign called Massive Resistance. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 12:12, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
If you have a list of states which have not yet performed a same-sex marriage, then the answer to your overall question will likely be "one of those." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:15, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
From the Caitlyn Jenner discussion I gather that a-to-b transsexuals are (post transition) considered to have been gender b from birth. So if a couple enters an opposite-sex marriage and then one member transitions, that means it was really a same-sex marriage from the very beginning. That probably means all states have done SSM's by now, even if they are still on the books as OSM's. But it would be very hard to document this. (talk) 06:55, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
I don't think that's true. Even if you accept that particular fiction (I don't, Kris Jenner is not a lesbian, she married a man when she married Bruce) that would only make it a same-gender marriage, not a same-sex marriage. - Lindert (talk) 08:00, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
The notion that a woman who marries another woman is necessarily a lesbian, is not supported by the language. It's called "same sex" marriage, not "same sexual orientation" marriage. Many gay people have entered into traditional opposite sex marriages. (Isn't that so, WH Auden, Elton John, Oscar Wilde, Peter Tchaikovsky, Rock Hudson and Natacha Rambova?) I wonder what the reverse of lavender marriage is called. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 08:32, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
I did not say anything about Bruce's sexual orientation, what I said has nothing to do with "same sexual orientation" marriage. My point was that Kris is not sexually attracted to women, and therefore she wouldn't have married Bruce if he had been woman at that time. And yes, many same-sex attracted people have indeed married the opposite sex, but the reverse I'd say is extremely unlikely/uncommon. - Lindert (talk) 08:56, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
I would say that if the state considers the spouses opposite sex but won't marry people born the same sex then that is just a footnote. It probably just begrudgingly marries a guy and a guy with a penis after he produces proof that he was born a female (birth certificate, state ID etc.). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 12:12, 6 July 2015 (UTC)


Shortsightedness runs through the genes of my family. Therefore I would like a spouse that is farsighted to avoid passing on my deficiency to my offspring. However, to avoid being rude, I aim to propose to my future spouse in a less direct way. Are there any sports or other hobbies/activities which require farsightedness? (talk) 10:05, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Probably not, as wearing contact lenses is always a possibility when glasses are inconvenient. Except when swimming. Swimming with contact lenses is a very bad idea, so people don't do that. I find it strange though that you're looking for a spouse like you're looking for a broodmare. Isn't love the most important thing in a marriage? — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 12:01, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
I'll avoid the temptation to editorialize; I will note though that [25] says that two loci (I think - maybe more because I didn't go through the data carefully) have 'risk alleles' with effects in opposite directions on myopia and hyperopia. (I had been curious because I could picture that both conditions could have many of the same genes for 'refractive error') So the OP's genetic notion has at least a little basis in reality. I wonder if 23andme ever ran a dating service... :) Wnt (talk) 12:13, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
This question really ought to be on the science desk. I'm not sure your grasp of genetics is scientific - I don't think 'minus' genes balance 'plus' ones. If having children with good vision is so important to you, your best genetic lottery option would be to find a mate who has perfect vision. Your way, your offspring are likely to be some % mix of short and long sighted. --Dweller (talk) 12:20, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Some genes do work like that. For example, one tall parent and one short is likely, but not guaranteed, to produce offspring between them in size (with adjustments for male versus female heights). Other genes don't work that way, like eye color (we would all have an eye color that looks like what you get when you mix all colors together by now if it did !). Also note that nearsightedness frequently occurs early in life, and farsightedness often later, so it's possible to have both, at different ages (my brother is an example of this). StuRat (talk) 16:16, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

History of the Queen Victoria Monument[edit]

Just been listening to a conversation about the Victoria Monument in Liverpool that there used to be public toilets underneath it years ago (I've heard this before many times) but nobody knows if that is true or not.
Does anyone know if this is true or not ? Or Where there be info about it ? (talk) 10:35, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

There used to be subterranean toilets in Derby Square and there is a lot of commentary on the web that the statue either used to face the entrance or indicate it in some way. Photo of entrance here. Photo inside here. They were closed in the early 80s. I can't find anything to say they extended below the Monument, it appears they were nearby but built at the same time. The statue at Queen Victoria Square in Hull does continue to have public toilets beneath it. They were even Grade II listed in 1994, quick pic where you can see the entrance to the Gents here, shoddy Youtube vid of the interior here. Nanonic (talk) 11:07, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Additional - there are images of the original Liverpool excavations here along with some discussion that the Ladies toilets were closer to the monument and perhaps underneath. Nanonic (talk) 11:25, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
According to our article, the monument includes a large "pedestal" with symbolic sculptures etc, and looking at the images, then it seems that the toilets were certainly under that structure, if not under the actual statue itself. I have to confess that I've never been to Liverpool, so have no local knowledge to add - maybe User:KageTora, our resident Scouser, may be able to shed some more light on the subject. Alansplodge (talk) 13:00, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
I go past there every week from the underground station at James St. to my favourite sushi restaurant at Liverpool One. I'll check to see if there is an entrance of some sort next time I go, because I have never heard this rumour. KägeTorä - () (もしもし!) 15:20, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Real person - Paul Berowne[edit]

Was Paul Berowne a real person? Can only see search results for a character in a novel. Also related is McIver-Berowne baronets. Hack (talk) 13:54, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Negotiating with Apocalyptic lunatics[edit]

I have an interest in the Waco siege. In particular, my focus is on the attempts by the FBI to negotiate with David Koresh in the weeks leading up to the horrifying climax.

My understanding is that the FBI negotiators were considered to have seriously taken the wrong tactics for dealing with a character such as Koresh. (E.g. engaging in religious debates with him, which was never going to work).

(Of course, I accept that even if the negotiators had been world-class at dealing with such a character, there is absolutely no guarantee of a peaceful outcome - but there would presumably have been a higher chance of one).

Could someone either offer some sourced opinions on what would have been the appropriate tack for the negotiators to take in attempting to persuade an apocalyptic lunatic to peacefully surrender? Or direct me to articles (either from the media or scholarly sources) dealing with the subject (this particular tragedy)?

Also, have any experts speculated on the likely chances of success (in obtaining a peaceful outcome) had the proper approach (whatever that is) been used?

PLEASE NOTE: I am NOT asking this to "blame or attack" the FBI. I'm simply trying to understand what lessons can be learned about the ideal way to approach such situations. (talk) 15:37, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

The expert speculation at the time, on various news sources, was all about how they should have nabbed him when he was outside the compound, as inside the compound he had lots of followers, weapons, and hostages. He apparently did often leave the compound, so it was a really poor decision to try to arrest him there. Once agents had been killed, there may very well have been no peaceful way out. (The speculation on why they tried to arrest him inside the compound was around them wanting to be able to get a look around for evidence of other crimes.) StuRat (talk) 16:08, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
An account regarding that aspect: [26] ( I guess the OP is questioning negociations during the stand-off phase, but the rule there can be only "unconditional surrender" from the law enforcement point of vue, so you will have to dig into psychological publications for theories about wether this would have been possible. ) --Askedonty (talk) 16:19, 6 July 2015 (UTC)


June 30[edit]

Polish translation (~ 1880)[edit]

I found the term "trakcie bitym" in a Polish dictionary from the end of the 19th century (Mieczyn wieś w powiecie włoszczowskim, gminie i parafii Krasocin, leży przy trakcie bitym z Włoszczowy do Kielc.). Translation yields "beaten road". How should it be translated? Is it "pavement-covered road" ? Thx for any help. GEEZERnil nisi bene 12:52, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

OK found it. Case closed. GEEZERnil nisi bene 14:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

implying something by saying its opposite[edit]

There's a word (and we have a good Wikipedia article about it, I just don't remember the word) for when you imply something by stating the opposite. E.g. saying "My opponent has never been convicted of murder" insinuates that the opponent was at least suspected of murder. Anyone know the word? I think it goes back to classical rhetoric but I'm not sure of that. Thanks. (talk) 15:32, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Irony. But it's a bit more complicated than that. Read the article. Myrvin (talk) 15:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
The example you give isn't the same as the Q in the title, for which an example would be "He's a real genius, isn't he ?", said satirically. Innuendo is a better match for implying something without actually saying it, as in your example. StuRat (talk) 15:45, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Saying one thing but implying the opposite comes under irony. But you probably wouldn't think of that as a term from classical rhetoric. There's lots of other devices that can achieve similar goals, and use related concepts. Apophasis is also relevant to saying something by not saying it. Depending on the context, litotes could also be involved. Then there's the general notion of the Unsaid. We also have a nice Glossary_of_rhetorical_terms - for almost any real-world statement, it can be categorized as deploying many different rhetorical devices, and classification of such is always a bit ambiguous and subjective. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:55, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I agree with both of the above posts. I was answering the "imply something by stating the opposite" question. Myrvin (talk) 18:51, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Sarcasm. According to B. Bousfield (in Marina Lambrou and Peter Stockwell, Contemporary Stylistics, Continuum International Publishing Group, 2010, p. 213), sarcasm is:

The use of strategies which, on the surface appear to be appropriate to the situation, but are meant to be taken as meaning the opposite in terms of face management. That is, the utterance which appears, on the surface, to maintain or enhance the face of the recipient actually attacks and damages the face of the recipient. ... sarcasm is an insincere form of politeness which is used to offend one's interlocutor.

HOOTmag (talk) 16:04, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
That's saying a nice or neutral thing while actually being nasty. It's not necessarily meaning the opposite thing. There are hours of argument about this in Talk for irony and sarcasm. A bit later, your quote says, "For Leech this effect is caused by the phenomenon of irony, as it is irony which enables a speaker to be impolite while seeming to be polite." Like I said, it's not simple. Myrvin (talk) 18:42, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Incredible !! How can you claim - the utterance the quote discusses - is "not necessarily meaning the opposite thing", while the quote does explicitly discuss utterances which: "are meant to be taken as meaning the opposite..."? HOOTmag (talk) 20:50, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Somewhat related, the old Leon Trotsky joke.[27]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:07, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
A gem, BB. Yes... "meanings that change with inflection." Martinevans123 (talk) 18:51, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks all. Apophasis is the article whose title I couldn't remember. (talk) 21:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
    • Well, I would certainly never say that this whole thread was a complete waste of time. Nor that you are very probably a mischievous sockpuppet of a very well-known encyclopedia founder. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:08, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Great! My high school Latin teacher (who taught me the concept) would be proud of me. He made it seem as though the technique was very common in the debates and accusations surrounding the First_Catilinarian_conspiracy. I'll mark this as resolved. SemanticMantis (talk) 22:08, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
WRT "irony": It's ironic that "it's ironic" is so widely misused these days. --Shirt58 (talk) 09:45, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I guess that brings this discusison to a full stop. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:01, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Try changing water into good wine. Those almost 13464 not superfluous occurrences of "ironically" just waiting getting translated into their much heavier equivalent "paradoxically".--Askedonty (talk) 12:34, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Wow, quite a few. Can we get an irony-bot for that job? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:40, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Here is one. Got a license ? --Askedonty (talk) 12:49, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Are the sentences grammatically correct in English? (participial adjective)[edit]

  • It is an error of table can't be displayed.
  • It is an error of table couldn't be displayed. (could)

Because I think "of" is a preposition which should be followed by a noun rather than a clause ("table can't be displayed")

I wonder if changing it from "can" to "could" resolves the grammar issue.

Other examples of participial adjective I found:

  • Boring teachers make bored students. (boring, bored)
  • A book written in English. (written)

But I could't find participial adjective examples for auxiliary verbs (can, will, shall, may, etc.). Do such examples exist?

-- Justin545 (talk) 20:55, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Are you trying to say that "It is an error THAT the table can't be displayed"? Myrvin (talk) 20:58, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Hmmm ... what would you do if you have to add "of" into the sentence? -- Justin545 (talk) 21:14, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
"It is an error of the programmer that the table ...."?? Maybe, even "It is an error of the table that it can't be displayed." But that doesn't seem idiomatic. "The table is in error because it can't ..." would be better. Myrvin (talk) 21:19, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
"It is an error of the table that it can't be displayed." - I like the answer, as least it looks correct. -- Justin545 (talk) 21:31, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
That's grammatically correct but nonsensical ontologically. It's not a table's error that it can't be displayed, it's an error on the part of someone or something else. There can be an error in a table but I don't think a table can make errors. SemanticMantis (talk) 21:39, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Sigh, it looks like you are correct too. The meaning is kind of different indeed. -- Justin545 (talk) 21:53, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
At a stretch there could be an "error of a table" if it some sort of reference. "We were expecting a train to arrive at 1:00pm, but that was only because of an error of the timetable".
Participle adjectives are possible (like in your last sentences), but auxiliary verbs (except for: "is", "do", "have", "dare") - don't have the participle form. Additionally, your first sentences about the "table" are wrong (I couldn't understand them either). HOOTmag (talk) 21:24, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I thought that "could" is the past participle form of "can" ... am I wrong? -- Justin545 (talk) 21:35, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
"Could" is not a Participle form, it's a Past form. "Can", and "cant", have no Participle form. However, "can" = "is able to", and "can't" = "is unable to", while "is unable" has an adjective "unable", so you can say: "it is an error of [a] table unable to be displayed". HOOTmag (talk) 22:09, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Oops, I should have searched more harder for a reliable source. Now I realize "could" is just a past form, thanks! As for the "unable" version, I think the equivalence makes sense to get out of the "could". It turns out aux. verbs have some bizarre properties. -- Justin545 (talk) 01:47, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
What is the intended meaning? Is it (1) to say that the inability to display constitutes an error? Or is it (2) that the nature of the acknowledged error is inability to display? --catslash (talk) 21:27, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Excuse me. I don't understand the question well ... -- Justin545 (talk) 21:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Myrvin's first answer ("It is an error THAT the table can't be displayed"), means: "You already know that the table can't be displayed, but I need to tell you that this is a problem". I don't think that is what you want to say. More likely you want to say "You already know that there is a problem, but I need to tell you that the problem is that the table can't be displayed". Is that right? --catslash (talk) 00:39, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes! This sentence was due to some programming bug got fixed and posted on a bugtracker web page to inform everybody that it has been fixed. -- Justin545 (talk) 01:19, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
For 'of' with participles, the OED has "There was one child of the marriage". "it was an affair of generations", "The old bluesmen, their black faces engraved with the sorrows of ages." 'Of' is a very complicated word. Myrvin (talk) 21:30, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Sometimes errors have specific names and error codes. Maybe you're looking for something like
  • It is the error of "table can't be displayed"
As far as I can tell my example is grammatical, but it might be more clear if the "of" was just removed. Putting the name of the error in quotes turns it into a grammatical mention rather than a grammatical use, see use-mention distinction. SemanticMantis (talk) 21:36, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
It's the exact meaning ... it would be better if the punctuation marks could be vocally represented. -- Justin545 (talk) 22:05, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
You can vocally represent quotation marks. Perhaps not unambiguously, but people do it. Try a little pause before the quoted part, and change tone a bit. Almost like you're speaking in italics :) SemanticMantis (talk) 22:38, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I like that SM. It is the same as "'Table can't be displayed' is the error message." But I think the questioner wants an "of" somewhere. Myrvin (talk) 21:42, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
The "of" is needlessly wordy. "It is the 'table can't be displayed' error" works best (if you're avoiding contractions). Can't accidentally imply it's the table's fault. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:33, July 1, 2015 (UTC)

It seems like the OP's question has been resolved. I turns out, the OP was not looking for a "participle adjective" - but rather for an "adjective" only (like in their example "boring teachers"). Anyways, they have indicated (in their response to me above), that my suggestion - of using the " equivalence ['can't' = 'is unable to'], makes sense - to get out of the 'could' " [i.e. to get rid of the 'can't'] - hence to get the correct adjective suggested by me: 'unable', so it seems they accept the final consequence: 'it is an error of [a] table unable to be displayed'. HOOTmag (talk) 04:52, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

We used to live in the automobile world, now we live in the new computer world, where the ones who create and rule and help and fix, don't need to master language as a means for thinking or for common sense... Akseli9 (talk) 09:58, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Of course, and I wonder who here has ever tried to "master language as a means for thinking". The OP was simply looking for an "adjective of can't", so I tried to do my best to help them find what they were looking for, and I hope I succeeded, that's all. Anyways, I wonder how your comment is related to the whole topic discussed in my response you've referred to. HOOTmag (talk) 10:13, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

July 2[edit]

Arabic question: What is "Schools in Detroit" in Arabic and Polish?[edit]

What is "Schools in Detroit" in Arabic? I would like to add that description to Commons:Category:Schools in Detroit along with English, Bengali, Spanish.

Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 03:18, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

مدارس في ديترويت Omidinist (talk) 03:44, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 04:40, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

For any editors who know Polish, is it okay if I know what "Schools in Detroit" is in Polish? WhisperToMe (talk) 04:40, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Szkoły w Detroit. HOOTmag (talk) 06:59, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Thank you! :) WhisperToMe (talk) 07:21, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Just curious, how do you pronounce the single "w" word in Polish ? StuRat (talk) 13:38, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
/v/. HOOTmag (talk) 14:03, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Together with the following syllable: [ˈʂkɔwɨ vdiˈtrɔit]. If the following word started with a voiceless consonant, the "w" would be devoiced: szkoły w Toronto [ˈʂkɔwɨ ftɔˈrɔntɔ]. — Kpalion(talk) 14:30, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Not only in Polish, but also in other Slavic languages there exist prepositions consisting only of a single consonant. Indeed, they are pronounced together with the following syllable (word). (There always is a following word because in those languages, unlike in English, a preposition is not a good word to end a sentence with.) --Theurgist (talk) 17:57, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Where/what is your waist?[edit]

This question is equally about semantics and anatomy.

I read the article waist as well as waistline (clothing) and did some Google searches. and I'm finding some of the information contradictory, particularly for men.

The definition I see in some places is "the narrowest part of your torso". Let's take a man with a protruding belly, who wears his pants below his belly, which is normal for such people. Even if we were to say the part of his body where he wears his pants (basically his hips) is not really part of his torso and thus cannot be his waist, then certainly the area immediately below his chest is likely to be much smaller in circumference than his belly. But I've never heard anyone call that part of your body your waist.

And if you take the "anatomical" waist which is defined by some to be the circumference around the part of your torso containing your navel, then for this guy with a belly, that would likely be the *widest* part of your torso, not the narrowest.

So do men have several different waists depending on the definition?--Captain Breakfast (talk) 08:39, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

The waist is, in fashion terms, where your trousers stop (hence how describing jeans as "high-waisted" is meaningful). It doesn't have much relationship with the anatomical waist, except that if you're slim enough that your body curves in at the waist, this is a comfortable (if currently unfashionable) place for wearing belts. The waist is not an identifiable structure in the way that a finger or a tooth is. It's ultimately just an arbitrary line on the body, so it's whatever you define it to be. Smurrayinchester 09:16, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Among Negroes in American jails the trousers stopped very low (about halfway down the underpants). This has become a fashion in Britain (and no doubt elsewhere) which many, not only women, find distasteful. (talk) 09:37, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
"Among Negroes in American jails?" That's a hoot, and about 25 years after the fact. Not safe for work or children. μηδείς (talk) 00:06, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it's vague. For example Empire waist dresses on women put the "waist" just below the bust. Perhaps some rather large men do consider their waits to be near the nipples at the narrowest point of the torso, and also wear their pants there - this guy is not fat but he wears his pants very high [28]SemanticMantis (talk) 15:06, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
LOL Captain Breakfast (talk) 03:50, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I would say that some obese people simply don't have a waist, in that there is no narrower spot between their chest and hips. Therefore, belts don't really work, and they need to go with suspenders. StuRat (talk) 13:34, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

What's the grammatical form: "You hate no-one, do you?", or "You hate no-one, don't you?"[edit]

The problem I find in #1, is that #1 is opposed to the general form: "You VERB OBJECT, don't you?" (or "You don't VERB OBJECT, do you?"), but it's never "You VERB OBJECT, do you?" (just as it's never "You don't VERB OBJECT, don't you?").

On the other hand: the problem I find in #2, is that the form "You VERB OBJECT, don't you?", is AFAIK an abbreviation of the original meaning: "I was quite sure you VERB OBJECT, don't you VERB OBJECT?" (just as the form "You don't VERB OBJECT do you?", is an abbreviation of the original meaning: "I was quite sure you don't VERB OBJECT, do you VERB OBJECT?"), so #2 - which states "You hate no-one don't you?" - must be an abbreviation of: "I was quite sure you hate no-one, don't you hate no-one?"; but I wonder whether "Don't you hate no-one?" is grammaical, because "You don't hate no-one" is not.

However, maybe my assumption was wrong, and "Don't you hate no-one?" (which could mean "Haven't you claimed you hate no-one?") is grammatical (although "You don't hate no-one" is not). In that case, I guess the correct form - among the forms mentioned in my question - is "You hate no-one, don't you?" (talk) 10:00, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Nobody is the problem in my eyes. "You hate no-one, don't you?" would be my shot at it. - X201 (talk) 10:07, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks to your remark, I fixed my original question. Btw, what do you think about the last section of my previous response? (talk) 10:20, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Simply rephrase the question as "You don't hate anyone, do you?" and the problem is solved. --Viennese Waltz 10:23, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I've always been quite aware of the legitimacy of "You don't hate anyone, do you?", however my question was about how to deal with sentences involving "no-one". (talk) 10:29, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Why would you insist on having "no-one" in the sentence when it just causes problems and there is a problem-free alternative? --Viennese Waltz 10:34, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I've never "insisted" on having "on-one". On the contrary: I personally prefer "anyone" to "no-one". I've only wondered whether other people share my impression, that using "no-one" may really cause problems. If they do, then I want them to say that (like you); if they don't - then I want them to tell me the correct form when "no-one" is involved. (talk) 10:45, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I think they are both valid - if a bit odd - but they mean slightly different things. When you say "You do X, don't you?", it suggests that I think you do X and am daring you to say you don't. When you say "You do X, do you?", it is probably avowing complete ignorance of whether you do it or not. For the question: "You hate no-one, don't you?" It is saying, I think you hate no-one - say you don't if you dare! The other is saying, is it true that you hate no-one? They could be revamped as: "Is it not the case that you hate no-one?" and "Is it the case that you hate no-one?" You hear the first on TV when the prosecutor is cross-examining the defence witness. The other is more friendly - perhaps posed by the defence lawyer. Myrvin (talk) 13:06, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
What do you mean by: "I think you hate no-one - say you don't if you dare!"? "don't" what? Do you mean "don't [hate no-one]"? But this was my initial problem: Can you claim you "don't hate no-one"? I suspect it's not a valid expression, is it? (talk) 14:07, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Depends on how picky you want to be, and how formal the writing/speaking is. In many varieties of USA English, "I don't hate no-one" is perfectly grammatical, and resolves to the same semantics as "I don't hate anyone". See Double_negative#Two_or_more_negatives_resolving_to_a_negative, which gives the example "I didn't go nowhere today." See also "I can't get no satisfaction", which does not mean that the speaker is always satisfied. But that's a rock song, and the usage would be inappropriate for e.g. a Wikipedia article or school report. We deal with ambiguity related to the examples you just gave all the time. For example, "Don't you want a puppy?" can be answered both "Yes, I do want a puppy" as well as "No, I do want a puppy". Rephrasing: "Do you not want a puppy?" - the answer "Yes" could mean "Yes, it is the case that I do not want a puppy" (this is a negative answer). In other cases, "Yes" could mean "Yes I want a puppy". Fortunately we just use Context_(language_use) and Intonation_(linguistics) to make sense of things or just rephrase them for clarity, and seldom do we have problems in real-life spoken discussions like this, at least seldom between two native speakers. Hope that helps :) SemanticMantis (talk) 14:57, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I assume you agree to the following two rules: 1. The second part of the sentence "You VERB OBJECT - don't you?", is an abbreviation of "don't you VERB OBJECT?". 2. From what the speaker means - we can infer, that if the question mark had been removed from the second part of the sentence - so that this second part would have been "you don't VERB OBJECT", then this second part would have meant the opposite of what is meant by the first part of the sentence ("You VERB OBJECT"). In my opinion, this is what we can infer - from what the speaker means when they add the second part of the sentence, can't we?
However, your last claim seems to contradict - at least one of - the two rules mentioned above, because: you claim that the sentence "You hate no-one, don't you [hate no-one]?", eventually means "You hate no-one, don't you [hate anyone]?". consequently, if the question mark had been removed from the second part of the sentence - so that this second part would have been "you don't [hate no-one]" - meaning (in your opinion) "you don't [hate anyone]", then this second part would have meant exactly what - rather than the opposite of what - is meant by the first part of the sentence ("you hate no-one")... (talk) 16:03, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I'm afraid this is an idiomatic form - like many, many others. I'll expand: "I think you hate no-one - if you don't hate no-one (ie you hate someone) then say so". I don't think you will see "don't hate no-one" very often. AS VW says: "Don't hate anyone" is more likely. Myrvin (talk) 15:34, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
My Scottish (Dumfriesshire) great-aunt (born early 20th century, pre-WW1) used to offer guests a drink with "You don't want a sherry do you?" Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 15:53, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Great :-) (talk) 16:03, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Somewhere, I read an account about a puritan asked to dinner by non-puritan folk. The lady said to him, "You will have some meat, won't you?" He replied, "Madam, first thou said an untruth, and then thou asked a question."Myrvin (talk) 16:27, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
All of this reminds me another case, about a fellow who lived alone in a huge forest, and sometimes had to cope with intrusive guests. He used to welcome them by saying: "If I had had sugar, I would have suggested you coffee with sugar - if I had had coffee..." (talk) 17:47, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
What do you mean by "I don't think you will see 'don't hate no-one' very often"? Is it ever possible to hear - something like "you don't hate no-one" - from a native speaker who means "you hate someone"? If it's possible, then in what occasions? (talk) 16:03, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
It would be easy to say that 'don't hate no-one' is ungrammatical. Perhaps you should assume that, but here [29][30] are searches with lots of them in common speech. But all these are probably double negatives (cf SemanticMantis above) that mean "I don't hate anyone". Also, I wrote a book once entitled "Nobody Don't Know Nothing", so what do I know? Myrvin (talk) 16:22, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
No, I've never said anything (or nothing if you like) about whether "don't hate no-one" is grammatical. I've always been quite aware of the double negation used by some (native) speakers. I only wondered whether any expression like "you don't hate no-one" - can be heard from a native speaker who means "you hate someone". If you insist that it is possible, then I wonder - in what occasions it is. Regarding the book you've written: does it deal with expressions like "you don't hate no-one" - meaning "you hate someone"? (talk) 17:47, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I can find no instances of "you don't hate no-one" - meaning "you hate someone", so I don't insist upon it. No, my book was about the impossibility of knowing anything. I think we have moved beyond your original question. Myrvin (talk) 18:33, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I'd slightly disagree with the you're interpretation (or at lease, talking about "daring" them makes it seem more hostile than it should be). To my mind, the form "You do X, don't you?" is asking for confirmation that your assumption is correct. "You do X, do you?" seems slightly more questioning, as if you are either not sure that they do X, or are surprised that they do. Iapetus (talk) 10:46, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Almost any random sequence of English words can come up as a response to an unusually framed question. Husband: I don't hate anyone at all. Wife: Oh dear, you know you hate someone. Husband: No, honey, there is no one I hate. Wife: Come, on John, you know you don't hate no-one; there's Bob next door, for a start. μηδείς (talk) 23:58, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Beat me to it. I was working on "I don't hate no-one, I hate everyone". Myrvin (talk) 06:29, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Al right guys, so the correct form I've been looking for is: "you hate no-one - don't you?", meaning "I've been quite sure you hate no-one - don't you hate no-one?", which means: "I've been quite sure you hate no-one - do you hate anyone?" (according to Medeis's version), or which means: "I've been quite sure you hate no-one - do you hate everyone?" (according to Myrvin's version). Personally I prefer Medeis's interpretation of my original sentence discussed in this thread (I think also Myrvin does), although Myrvin's version can be used as another interpretation of "don't hate no-one" - irrespective to (and regardless of) my original question. Anyways, all of those alternative interpretations can be added to our article double negation (and to other articles mentioning it) in order to emphasize that the double negation can't be regarded as ungrammatical - when interpreted in some ways. (talk) 07:06, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
It seems this thread can be closed. HOOTmag (talk) 07:24, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Could be my BrEng ears, but both constructions sound horrible to me. Why not go with "You don't hate anyone, do you?" --Dweller (talk) 10:53, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Didn't you read my post upthread? I already suggested that. --Viennese Waltz 12:27, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Nope. To be honest, I was put off reading the whole thread by the OP's SHOUTING and other people's excessive use of bold. --Dweller (talk) 12:47, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
OP's shouting? I don't remember I've ever shouted. Regarding "other people's excessive use of bold": Note that bold letters are intended to emphasize (rather than to shout). (talk) 13:01, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
The link I provided covers both of your points. --Dweller (talk) 13:35, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
As for the big letters: I've never used them to shout - but rather to quote. As for the bold letters: I've never used them to shout - but rather to emphasize, and the link I've provided (in my previous response) - covers that as well. (talk) 13:58, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
It could be that the link you've provided (in your previous response) leads to the same than this last link you're providing. --Askedonty (talk) 16:21, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Of course. (talk) 16:38, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Prior to your post, I count 16 bolded words, out of about 1900 in the thread. My post was the only one other than OP that used bolding, at 2/200 words. If you want to call rates of bolding 1/100 or less excessive, that's fine. Me, I figure using typographic emphasis sparingly is doing a favor to the community, otherwise we just have huge walls of text and it's hard to see key points. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:45, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

July 3[edit]

"Man up" not "gender neutral" - what is current best exact equivalent in English usage[edit]

Is there in current English usage a gender-neutral equivalent to "man up" (meaning "be brave or tough enough to deal with an unpleasant situation" or (MacMillan) "to start being brave and dealing with a difficult situation")? Do any of the major style guides say anything anent this? I wish to avoid affronting anyone, but could not find such after an assiduous search :(. Collect (talk) 22:03, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

toughen up, pluck up, brave up? ---Sluzzelin talk 22:12, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
None of which remotely come near the idiomatic meaning as noted by Zimmer (and as the Guardian article notes) . And saying "Pluck Up!" might well arouse ire. Collect (talk) 22:21, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
More like to arouse ridicule. "Fight Fiercely, Harvard!" and all that sort of thing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:17, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Be a mensch. Maybe it's half a century out of date, but who cares; its recipient might appreciatively recognize the reference to The Apartment, a wonderful film. Possibly ineffective in Britain, where people might mistake it for a reference to this person. -- Hoary (talk) 22:45, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Not at all equivalent. A mensch is, among other things, a particularly decent human being. "Man up" is a different stereotype; basically, "man up" means "grow some balls", and there really isn't a gender neutral way to express "act more like a stereotypical male". --jpgordon::==( o ) 22:56, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I guess there is overlap somewhere in the field of courage and doing the right thing without regard to personal consequences (WP has an article on moral courage which I found via de:Zivilcourage, an everyday-word in German). Regarding perfect synonymy, see also "Why do synonyms exist?", e.g.) ---Sluzzelin talk 23:05, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
What do you know? I always thought mensch referred to a man (and was not used for a woman) but apparently it has a complicated history in the German to English transfer. [31] Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:11, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I suggest "grow up". Cullen328 Let's discuss it 23:16, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
That's something children say to each other. Not the same thing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:24, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Not always children. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:40, July 6, 2015 (UTC)
The expression "take courage" is used in some translations of John 16:33.
Wavelength (talk) 23:28, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Last week the assistant chief of police in Detroit said "man up or woman up, whatever, and tell us what's going on" after a shooting. "Woman up" gets a lot of Google results. It's far removed from what "man up" is supposed to mean, but maybe that's a good thing. Adam Bishop (talk) 23:57, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Not exactly gender neutral, but around here people say "time to put your big boy/girl pant(ie)s on" or "you better cowboy/cowgirl up!", using either "boy" or "girl" as appropriate.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 01:23, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

How about the oldy but goody, "gird up your loins" (since the type of loins aren't specified) ? StuRat (talk) 02:20, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Pull yourself together [[wo]man]! --catslash (talk) 21:01, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Is "be brave" no good? InedibleHulk (talk) 22:42, July 4, 2015 (UTC)

May I suggest simply "grow up"? -- (talk) 02:20, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

That's something children say to each other. Not the same thing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:35, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
The Friendly Giant politely suggests looking up. Not way up, but seven steps. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:49, July 5, 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps "Satisfy your needs!" could work. I doubt it. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:54, July 5, 2015 (UTC)
Something like "step up" or "stand up" can work, but the question would be whether women say "man up" to each other. If they do, then it's already de facto gender neutral. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:24, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
I was just today thinking of the popular phrase in the American military, suck it up. Basically used for "you're in a difficult situation, so don't complain, just deal with it". Variants of the phrase include "get a straw and suck it up" and "suck it up, buttercup". MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:17, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Those aren't exactly best for a little girl afraid of the dentist (or something). Probably just scare her more. Nothing patronizing or rude about "be brave". InedibleHulk (talk) 00:36, July 6, 2015 (UTC)

She's an alumni[edit]

Here and here, a woman is described as "an SJSU alumni". ALUMN* isn't really in my own idiolect (I'd say she was a graduate): however inflected, it strikes me as a somewhat quaint Americanism. And I know that as foreign words are anglicized, strange things happen to them (opera is rarely a plural). So I'm not shocked, but I am mildly intrigued: In current Californian English, is "alumni" commonplace in feminine singular contexts? -- Hoary (talk) 22:53, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

"Alumni" is plural.[32] The singular would be "alumnus" (male) or "alumna" (female). A term often used is simply "alum". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:06, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I am commenting as a native speaker of American English, resident in California for 43 years. Although I understand that, technically, the word is plural, common 21st century usage here treats it as singular, and it is applied to both men and women without distinction. It would be unusual to hear "alumnus" in casual speech and I do not believe that I have ever heard anyone utter the word "alumna". Cullen328 Let's discuss it 23:31, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I see - like the way "media" and "criteria" are treated as singulars. Ugh. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:26, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Or "phenomena", or "vertebrae", more ugh. "Alumna" appears very many times on Wikipedia. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 03:43, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
I am not approving but simply reporting what I hear in spoken usage. That being said, I hear "phenomenon" and "vertebra" frequently. Entirely coincidentally, my brother was in a car crash yesterday, and fractured three neck vertebrae. No paralysis, fortunately. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:08, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Hearing "phenomenon" is fine. Just don't try watching it. Maybe Phenomena would be better? Matt Deres (talk) 13:07, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

I bet that the word "alumna" is known in some traditional women's colleges which remain single-sex... AnonMoos (talk) 23:44, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it is. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 08:00, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
I know very little about Cambridge, having visited the place only a handful of times. Are those places linked to part of the University? I thought all Oxford and Cambridge women's colleges had become co - educational, the last being St Hilda's a few years ago. St Benet's Hall, run by monks, was the last to admit women when they provided a special annexe for them recently. My mother, who never set foot in Cambridge, studied at Somerville at the same time as Margaret Roberts. When the family was living at Oxford my sister would often speak of female undergraduates as undergraduettes, emphasising the last syllable. Is this a commonplace terminology? (talk) 11:32, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Betjeman uses the term in An Oxford University Chest (1938), so it's unsurprising to find it still in use in the early 1950's; it had died out by the late 70's (when some cats may or may not have attended that institution). According to Google, it wasn't unique to Oxford - there was a magazine called "The Cambridge Gownsman and Undergraduette", published in the 1930's, but the term doesn't seem (fortunately) to have become generally popular. Tevildo (talk) 14:24, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Newnham and Murray Edwards (formerly New Hall) are both still single-sex (and both are full constitutent colleges of the University). The other main (and first) women's college was Girton, which started admitting male undergraduates in 1979. There's also Lucy Cavendish, which is women-only, but admits only graduate students and "mature" (over-21) undergraduates. As you say, the last women-only college at Oxford, St Hilda's, went co-ed in 2008. I've rarely heard anyone refer to "undergraduettes", and then only facetiously. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 14:53, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
I attended an Ivy League college in the 1980s, and at least in my day, there was a tendency to decline alumn- correctly in the nominative. Not everyone succeeded, but probably most did. I can imagine that correct usage has declined even in the Ivy League and probably correlates to exposure to Latin, which has been declining everywhere. Marco polo (talk) 14:26, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

July 4[edit]

What is "School districts in Michigan" in Arabic?[edit]

The category Category:School districts in the United States is ar:تصنيف:مناطق تعليمية في الولايات المتحدة on the Arabic Wikipedia.

I would like to start a similar category at the Arabic Wikipedia equivalent to Category:School districts in Michigan using the same translation for "school district". What would it be in Arabic?

Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 04:29, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

  • School districts in Michigan=مناطق تعليمية في ميشيغان
  • School districts=مناطق تعليمية
  • in=في
  • Michigan=ميشيغان

--Meno25 (talk) 11:48, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Meno :D WhisperToMe (talk) 11:49, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Teklehaimanot and Qhubeka[edit]

Hi friends, what is the correct pronunciation of Teklehaimanot (name of pro cyclist Daniel Teklehaimanot) and what is the correct pronunciation of Qhubeka (name of his team MTN-Qhubeka)? Thank you. (talk) 13:19, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

The Eritrean name is apparently the same as Tekle Haymanot (ተክለ ሃይማኖት täklä haymanot). Skimming through the Tigrinya language article, I think the Tigrinya pronunciation should be straightforward, except for the ‹ä›'s standing for [ɐ]'s.
Regarding the South African name, the ‹qh› apparently represents a click consonant, and more specifically an aspirated alveolar or postalveolar click. There might be other peculiarities as well (e.g. the ‹k› would be pronounced as [ɠ] in Zulu), and tones are likely involved too, but that all depends on which particular language the name belongs to. --Theurgist (talk) 20:15, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Qhubeka is isiZulu (and isiXhosa) for "advance, move forward, progress". The IPA is [ǃʰuˈɓɛːɠa], where the /!/ represents the sound usually described as clucking one's tongue, although that's ambiguous. (Here is the ! sound in a video that calls it "clicking" which is technically too broad a term, as there are other types of phonetic clicks.) None of these consonants has any equivalent in European languages. The pronunciation at Forvo (offered by a Latvian) is not very good to my ear, so I won't link to it.
μηδείς (talk) 20:45, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Thank you both. Theurgist, is täklä haymanot IPA? If not what would it be in IPA? (talk) 22:01, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
No, it's not IPA; it's the romanization system that is used in the Tigrinya language article. Per that article, the IPA would probably be /tɐklɐ hajmanot/. --Theurgist (talk) 22:17, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Terrific, thank you again. All syllables equally stressed? I'm not clear what the article means by 'contrastive'. (talk) 22:58, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
It means words rarely if not at all change their meaning when the stress is shifted. Theoreticly you can put the stress on any syllable.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 08:05, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Good, thanks. (talk) 13:01, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

July 5[edit]

inverted ‘Viva’ sign (Italian)[edit]

In a movie set in Italy – Don Camillo (1952) – we see placards saying “VV Peppone – ΛΛ la reazione”. The letters VV are crossed, forming a common abbreviation for Viva; by ΛΛ I mean the same sign inverted. I had never seen that before. Has it a pronunciation? —Tamfang (talk) 08:41, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Probably not answering the question, there is this. --Askedonty (talk) 08:50, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
The Italian Wikipedia article on the letter W says "In titles and slogans the letter W is used as an abbreviation of "evviva" or "viva", while the same symbol upside down indicates "abbasso", used as an expression of disapproval." So in this case, "long live Peppone, down with the reaction". Hopefully that makes sense in the context of the film (Peppone is Don Camillo's nemesis, at least). Adam Bishop (talk) 17:34, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
It does make sense in the context of the whole set of stories. Peppone is a communist (and mayor) and thus against la reazione, the reactionary opposition. ---Sluzzelin talk 17:45, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Greek language[edit]

I've heard that Greek is the language which has remained closest to its roots (that is, classical Greek). Is this true? --Halcatalyst (talk)

No but I bet a Greek person told you that, haha. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:58, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Citation needed. -- (talk) 19:07, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
IANAL (I am not a linguist) but I'd put my money on Icelandic. From the article: "modern Icelanders can easily read the Eddas, sagas, and other classic Old Norse literary works created in the tenth through thirteenth centuries". Sjö (talk) 19:49, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
It all depends on what is meant by "roots". It's all a matter of degree. Modern Icelandic is only about 800 years removed from Old Norse while Modern Greek is 2300 years removed from the Classical Period.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 20:42, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
  • The question is difficult because not all the parts of a language change at the same rate. English has conservative consonants, radically changed vowels, and a hugely diminished grammatical system. The noun system of Spanish is highly changed from that of Latin, while the verb system is similar, with some changes and simplifications. Assuming we take "roots" to refer to the Proto-Indo-European language, Greek, Icelandic, Slovenian, and Lithuanian, especially in their literary forms, are all rather conservative. There's an anecdotal story from Anthony Burgess in A Mouthful of Air that a Sanskrit scholar could make himself understood to a Lithuanian. This non-RS blog entry gives some examples of retained resemblances between the Baltic and the ancient Indian language.
μηδείς (talk) 20:53, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
(EC) I was just about to mention that Lithuanian is often touted as being the most conservative of the Indo-European languages but she beat me to it :) .--William Thweatt TalkContribs 21:00, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Quenya hasn't changed in Ages and Ages. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:37, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
The single most pure language of which all other languages are but corrupted dialects, is Quranic Arabic. I know this from comments on Youtube. Asmrulz (talk) 11:09, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
The holy God language spoken by Adam and Eve? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:42, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

July 6[edit]

What's the longest Russian word that's pronouncable if you pretend it's English letters?[edit]

What's the longest such word where such pronunciation wouldn't be wrong?

For the purpose of this, if there's adjacent letters that look like English consonants and that combination of English consonants doesn't occur in English then I would probably consider that unpronounceable. I would consider the letter that looks like backwards 3 to be pronounced E in English but the letter 3 to be unpronounceable. And backwards English letters that aren't still English letters to be unpronounceable. Maybe a word that still rolls well off the tongue despite too few vowels (like SQRL or VQL) could be honorable mention. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:56, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Do you mean regular case (eg., Саратов), all caps (САРАТОВ), or cursive (Саратов)? — Kpalion(talk) 04:17, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
How about this, one record for whichever format makes the longest word, and one record for the longest which also appears to follow English capitalization rules? (no caps, initial caps, all caps, or non initial caps in some cases like McDuff). Did you mean italic or cursive? I've only seen handwriting made without lifting the pen called cursive. Also, I don't see how an italic of a Cyrillic that looks like an English letter would not look like the italic of the English letter, but I've never seen italic Cyrillic before. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:12, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
about the only Cyrillic letters that are pronounced the same in English are a,e,к,м and т. Doing a regexp search on aspell's dictionary yields, inter alia:
какао, тотем, токамак, токката, томат, тамтам, макака, кокетка, etc, etc, as well as some Russian words that don't mean anything in English (the longest is, at 8 letters, отметете "you will sweep aside") (however, the second to last е is really an ё and pronounced "yo") Asmrulz (talk) 09:40, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
I think Sagittarian is asking about Russian letters that look like English letters even if they are pronounced differently, like "товар" which looks like "tobap" (or "Саратов" as Kpalion has noted, which looks like "capatob"). The longest one I can think of is "ресторан", which is "restaurant" but looks like "pectopah", but I suppose there must be longer ones. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:12, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Actually I was also wondering what's the longest Russian word that requires no transliteration. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:12, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
then I'd say it's any of the 7-letter words that I mentioned (transliteration tries to preserve pronunciation.) If we admit all letters for which there exists a visually identical (in all caps) Latin letter with no regard to the phonetic value (i.e., а,в,е,к,м,н,о,р,с,т,х) as Adam suggests, then the longest word is, at 16 leters, несоответственен "incongrous" , and the longest noun (15 letters) is реставраторство ("restoration-ism", i.e. restoration of antiques as an occupation, or the advocacy towards restoring some past political conditions) Asmrulz (talk) 13:24, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
here are the complete lists and the commands I used to generate them: [33] [34] Asmrulz (talk) 13:36, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
But Sagittarian asked for words that are pronounceable in English, which I would take to mean that they obey English phonototactic rules. Neither HECOOTBETCTBEHEH nor PECTABPATOPCTBO fulfill this condition. — Kpalion(talk) 13:45, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
yes, hence my disclaimer "with no regard to the phonetic value" in my second reply. The words in my initial reply do fulfill the condition of being their own phonetic transliteration into English (more or less.) Asmrulz (talk) 13:57, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Though not both. I meant words that not only look like English transliterations (with enough vowels) but sound like them, too. But it's nice to learn that HECOOTBETCTBEHEH is the longest Russian word that's its own transliteration (despite having some abrupt vowel-less consonant to consonant transitions not found in English). I never knew that C wasn't always pronounced S like in Soyuz or CCCP/Soyuz Sovietski Socialistica Republic or however you say it. Or if that's still S then it wouldn't count cause no English speaker would ever say C like S here. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:30, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Those are nice lists though. Thanks. I can see now that I shouldn't need any more help, But anyone's still welcome to add something that can't be deduced from those lists and Wikipedia/Wiktionary. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:40, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
oh, it isn't. only the short 7-letter words in my initial reply are their own transliterations. the 2nd list is of words that can be written using the Latin alphabet alone, but they aren't phonetic transliterations. C is always S Asmrulz (talk) 15:06, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
also, regarding cursive, there are no non-trivial words (за "for", ее "her") that work in (handwritten) cursive. However, you can write two 16-letter words (перепроизводство, "overproduction", cursive "nepenpouzbogcmbo" and судопроизводство "court proceedings", cursive "cygonpouzbogcmbo") and a 17-letter word (первопроходчество "trailblazing, pioneering", cursive "nepbonpoxogrecmbo") using cursive and it'd still be legible in Russian (the "z" is an old-style "z" with a descender, that looks like a wasp) Asmrulz (talk) 15:06, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Ah, okay. I thought PECTABPATOPCTBO was a transliteration but not pronouncable. My mistake. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:58, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Borscht terminology in Yiddish[edit]

Hi, I'm trying to expand our article about borscht and would like to confirm that I got the spelling and grammar of the following Yiddish terms right:

  • beet sour: ראָסל (rosl)
  • dairy borscht: מילכיקער באָרשט (milkhiker borsht)
  • meat borscht: פֿליישיקער באָרשט (fleyshiker borsht)

Kpalion(talk) 09:35, 6 July 2015 (UTC)


June 30[edit]

Britney Spears - Scandal[edit]

I remember that there was an old scandal (between 1997-2000 I think) of britney because she was topless in clip - I think the clip was "Don't Let Me Be the Last to Know". However I didn't find any newpaper on the internet, not in wikipedia - and felt hopeless - perhaps I wrong... I also remember that her mother sued the company because Spears was a teenage - Someone remember it? what was the song? The best would be a link to newspaper... -- (talk) 15:54, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Non-standard ways to qualify musical intervals?[edit]

I seem to remember reading (possibly in one of Rameau's own theoretical writings) that he proposed somewhere to call (what we call) a major 7th an augmented 7th. For consistency's sake the consequences would have to be (what we call) a minor 7th would have to be called just a 7th, or a possibly a perfect 7th ("une 7ème juste"), (what we call) a minor 2nd would have to be called a diminished 2nd and (what we call) a major 2nd would have to be called just a 2nd, or a perfect 2nd ("une 2nde juste"). But strangely I don't recall reading explicit statements to that effect.

So was it all a bad dream, or am I really remembering something?

Note that such a system (whether it was really proposed or used by anyone or was just a hallucination of mine) would be just as self-consistent as our usual system (the inversion of minor would be major, the inversion of diminished would be augmented, the inversion of perfect would be perfect, diminished would be one chromatic semitone below minor or perfect, augmented would be one chromatic semitone above major or perfect and diminished, minor, perfect, major, augmented would follow each other on the cycle of rising 5th). But in such a system only the 3rd and the 6th could be minor or major, all other intervals would be perfect (or diminished, augmented, etc.) So it wouldn't be enough to dismiss this on the grounds that Rameau couldn't have proposed such an absurd system. In fact as far as I can recall he justifies his proposal carefully. On the other hand that too could be part of a midsummer nightmare.

Note also that there already is an alternative system to our usual system that I have without any doubt seen used by some continental Europeans and that goes in the other direction: in that system (what we call) a perfect 4th is called a minor 4th, (what we call) an augmented 4th is called a major 4th, (what we call) a diminished 5th is called a minor 5th, (what we call) a perfect 5th is called a major 5th, and so on. That system too is completely coherent but there the only perfect interval is the unison, all other are either major or minor (or diminshed, augmented, etc.)

Does any of this ring a bell?

Contact Basemetal here 16:48, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Minor and major 4th (i.e. perfect and augmented 4th) were used by Mozart, as can be seen in a chart of intervals in Thomas Attwood's theoretical and compositional studies with him. However, he calls the diminished and perfect 5th respectively the false and true 5ths. The modification making them minor and major 5ths makes it more coherent, but I haven't seen it. If you find it, a link would be highly appreciated!
Calling the minor 7th a "perfect 7th" is a bit odd, to me. I'd prefer to let "minor 7th" denote the 12-ET interval, close to 9:5 (the 5-limit one) or 16:9 (the Pythagorean one), and let "perfect 7th" mean the harmonic seventh 7:4. But since 7-limit tuning mentions that Rameau considered 7:4 to be a dissonant interval, I have a hard time imagining why he would call it a perfect 7th, so I confess that I am at a loss. Double sharp (talk) 14:57, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Here, on p. 22 you can see the guy uses minor and perfect 5ths (for our diminished and perfect 5ths) and major and perfect 4ths (for our augmented and perfect 4ths). Actually in French they're not "perfect" but "true" ("juste"). So not exactly Mozart's system. Not exactly what I remembered and what you're asking a link for either. Yet for some reason that little work was one of the places I thought I remembered minor/major 5ths and major/minor 4ths. So this is not the link you wanted but it's going in the right direction Face-smile.svg I'll keep looking. I'm almost certain I've seen minor/major 4ths and minor/major 5ths, if not here (obviously) then elsewhere. As to Rameau like I said I am really not sure. From what I faintly remember he wanted to avoid having the augmented 7th ("septième superflue"? that would be ironic!) be the interval that's enharmonic to the 8ve because he was claiming that interval "doesn't exist" (?) and proposed renaming our major 7th into augmented 7th and that was his main motivation. One of the thing I seem to remember is that I came away thinking it was a "good" feature of this system that only the 3rd and the 6th could be major/minor. Note also what I remember is it was a speculative proposal, not the system he actually used. But all of this is so blurred that I really can't seriously affirm anything. Maybe one day I'll wade through "Traité de l'harmonie" and "Nouveau système" here to try and figure out what the hell it is I'm talking about. Contact Basemetal here 16:55, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
To be fair, the modern augmented seventh is rare to non-existent in modern harmony. It would technically qualify as a dissonance, being an augmented interval, but it is a real tour de force to make a perfect octave function as a dissonance! I have not seen this tried much in tonal harmony outside Alkan (which is of course in character of him, a renowned hater of enharmonic spellings). Double sharp (talk) 08:54, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Note: The observations in my first post about the coherence of those non-standard systems for qualifying musical intervals, the relation between them and the order of intervals on the circle of 5ths, etc only make sense if we're only talking Pythagorean intervals but those observations about coherence, etc are entirely mine, they don't belong to Rameau's discussion (or anyone else's). So it is entirely possible that certain proposals on qualifying musical intervals concern themselves with natural intervals that are outside the Pythagorean system just like you're suggesting. Contact Basemetal here 17:14, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Here you can read at the bottom of the page (which is p. 721 of the book): "La quinte diminuée se nomme quelquefois quinte mineure, et la quinte juste, quinte majeure". If you Google the equivalent of "major fifth" and "minor fifth" in continental European languages ("quinte majeure", "quinte mineure" in French, "große Quinte", "kleine Quinte" in German, etc) you may be able to find other examples. In any case that's how I located the link I've just given here. Of course you're bound to find relatively old sources as I believe nowadays the English usage has become pretty much universal ("quarte juste", "quarte augmentée", "quinte diminuée", "quinte juste" in French, "reine Quarte", "übermäßige Quarte", "verminderte Quinte", "reine Quinte" in German, and so on) Contact Basemetal here 00:05, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Another possible reason for the decline of these terms, now that quarter tones are pretty much a standard device now, is that major fourth seems to have been redefined as the C-Fhalf sharp interval (almost exactly 11:8), and minor fifth means its inversion C-Ghalf flat. (The system at Quarter tone#Interval size in equal temperament is not consistent; C-Ghalf flat is a minor fifth, but C-Chalf flat is a semidiminished octave. I wonder how one could construct a consistent system?) Double sharp (talk) 09:02, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

July 1[edit]

Olympics opening and closing ceremonies[edit]

An odd question I've been musing about for a day or two... At Olympic opening ceremonies there is always some big artistic performance depicting the history of the games or the country which pas playing host - all practiced at the main stadium in secret for several days before the ceremony. All well and good - but there is often a similar, if smaller, performance at the closing ceremony (ISTR that Barcelona in the 1990s had a huge fire festival and all sorts of other stuff during their closing ceremony). How and where are these rehearsed? I can't see how they could be rehearsed at the main stadium, since it would be in use for athletics in the final days of an Olympics. I also can't see them being rehearsed before the games, leaving a gap of two and a half weeks before performance. Do they somehow find down-time at the main venue, e.g., late at night after the events have finished? Or is the rehearsal all done at other venues and then all the necessary equipment and props moved en masse before the closing ceremony (a logistics nightmare, I'd imagine)? Thanks in advance for any answers... Grutness...wha? 13:05, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

For the most recent one, see 2012 Summer Olympics opening ceremony. "Rehearsals began in earnest in spring 2012 at an open-air site at Dagenham (the abandoned Ford plant)...Two full dress and technical rehearsals took place in the Olympic stadium on 23 and 25 July." Edit: oh wait, you're only asking about the closing ceremony. Scrub that, then. --Viennese Waltz 13:16, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
From 2012 Summer Olympics closing ceremony: " There had been around 15 rehearsals for the volunteers at the Three Mills Studio and at a full-scale site in Dagenham, East London." --Viennese Waltz 13:32, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
OK - cheers. Grutness...wha? 01:08, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Ape Ejaculation[edit]

(Question moved to science desk, Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#Ape_Ejaculation. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:53, 1 July 2015 (UTC))

What kind of computer did Jerry have in his apt. on Seinfeld?[edit] (talk) 15:39, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

A mac of some sort, see here [35]. They say it was a Macintosh Performa, some other sources say it was a Macintosh SE. It seems like there were a few different Macs on the show, this page [36] lists several models used throughout the run. If you have a specific one in mind, someone here can probably identify it based on a picture and episode number. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:14, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I had no particular episode in mind, I just noticed last night that the background of my Roku had an image of Seinfeld's apartment in coordination with the show being promoted on one of the streaming channels, and I saw the computer, which made me wonder the question. Thanks. (talk) 16:42, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Ah, then make sure you read the first link. Your Roku might have been showing the promotional Seinfeld apartment that Hulu made up recently, and for a while at least was showing the wrong computer (i.e. not one that was shown on the show), and instead had some generic 90's windows PC. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:18, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

July 2[edit]

Mr. Pine[edit]

In the third minute of "Mr. Pine" by the first version of Renaissance, a track otherwise unfamiliar to me, there's a familiar melody played on organ. Is it reused in a later Renaissance track, maybe "Ashes Are Burning"? —Tamfang (talk) 17:59, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

It's used in "Running Hard", on the same album: Illusion. According to the article, the theme is based on Jehan Alain's Litanies pour orgue. (judge for yourself, but, admittedly, maybe I'm not exactly certain about which excerpt you mean). ---Sluzzelin talk 18:12, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. In "Mr. Pine", the melody I mean runs from 1:51 to 2:43; it's monophonic and slower than Litanies. — "Running Hard" is on Turn of the Cards, which I haven't heard in a while. —Tamfang (talk) 07:17, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Abdel-Kader Zaaf[edit]

Was cyclist Abdel-Kader Zaaf, who was riding in the 1950's a black or white. My second question is was he French or Algerian? My Third question is the who is first black African to participat or ride in Tour de France? My last question who is the first cyclist to ever compete in Tour de France?— Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 21:49, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Our French Wikipedia page on him says he was born in Algeria, but had French nationality. Photographs of him [37] [38] suggest he was dark-skinned, but whether he was "black African" (i.e., of sub-Saharan descent) seems difficult to say - more likely he was of Berber ancestry. By the way, he competed before 1950, in 1948 - but was eliminated after just one stage. Grutness...wha? 01:28, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Women's Water Polo[edit]

I was interested to note that the British Women's Water polo team for the 2012 Olympics (Great Britain women's national water polo team) had no one in common with the team at Baku 2015 [39]. So how long is a typical national team member likely to be in the team?

And then I noticed that the ages of the 2012 team are about 8 years greater than that of the 2015 team, even though playing only 3 years apart. What is normal? -- SGBailey (talk) 23:37, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't know, but given that they are that much younger, I would assume that the water polo federation is not taking the European games very seriously and sending a youth/B team. This is happening in many sports. Fgf10 (talk) 07:09, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

July 3[edit]

Variety Club of Great Britain awards[edit]

The Variety Club of Great Britain (the link directs, not especially helpfully, to an article about the overarching international charity) used to hold an annual luncheon where a range of awards were handed out - here is the 1964 list, for instance. The organisation was apparently set up in Britain in 1948 - - but, at some point, the awards ceremony seems to have ceased. Here is a picture of a 1980 award. Does anyone know any more about the history of these awards? More particularly, does anyone have a list of the winners? The obits for Val Doonican say that he won the award for BBC TV Personality - one of the Variety Club awards - three times, but I can't find any independent verification of that. At the time - presumably up to the 1980s - the awards were quite widely reported in the UK, but they have now been superseded by the Brits, BAFTA, soap awards, etc., etc. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:04, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

The latest one I can find is 2010 - this is the IMDb entry for Channel 5's broadcast of it. Searching for "variety club showbiz awards 2011" (and subsequent years) doesn't come up with anything useful, but neither have I been able to find any official mention of their discontinuance. Tevildo (talk) 15:15, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
What an interesting question. I haven't found the answer, but I have found the website for the Royal Variety Charity, and I wonder if they will be able to point you in the right direction if you email them? --TammyMoet (talk) 15:32, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Do we know if the Royal Variety Charity is the same as Variety, the Children's Charity? I suspect they are separate organisations. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:41, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, they're different. The Royal Variety Charity used to be called the Entertainment Artistes' Benevolent Fund, according to this Rojomoke (talk) 19:49, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Just to clarify, the "Showbiz Awards" were awarded by the children's charity (under their former name, "The Variety Club of Great Britain"). The artiste's charity is best known for the Royal Variety Performance. The children's charity is the one to contact regarding the awards. Tevildo (talk) 21:19, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
I suspect that the answers to my questions might only be found by emailing one of these people. As Tevildo says, the awards were most recently called the Variety Club Showbiz Awards. According to their 2011 annual report, "2012 has started with a huge change in the branding of the charity and we have changed the name from Variety Club to Variety the Children’s Charity. A plan has been developed to reposition the charity in a way that plays to its strengths, improve the branding by removing the word Club from the title and updating the corporate identity...." It also says: "A vigorous drive for cost effectiveness led us to review a number of events which have become a traditional part of our fundraising year but which were no longer delivering revenue at the level previously enjoyed. These less viable functions are being dropped in 2012..." So, that probably gives an end date for the awards themselves. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:42, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

What is this music?[edit]

Dear Wikipedians,

A BBC4 series on forensic history uses a piece of music as a 'theme'. I assume it is not an original composition as the credits show no composer. It is most obvious from 0:42 to 1:26 on link. Can anyone tell me what it is, and where I can find a longer version? Many thanks. (talk) 22:04, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

While I can't help you, you could try posting your question on the BBC message board, specifically this thread You'll have to sign up (it's free) and you'll be able to ask BBC viewers, some who watched the program.
Many thanks, have stuck a post up and hopefully will get some joy. (talk) 16:24, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

--TrogWoolley (talk) 19:53, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately you've to be in the UK to play that video. I hope someone in the UK can help you. You could also ask the BBC to stop doing shit like this. Contact Basemetal here 22:39, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Not true, Basemetal. I just watched the first couple of minutes and I'm in New Zealand. The music does sound familiar, not I can't place it, sorry. Grutness...wha? 01:35, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Lucky duck. Their system detects your IP address, and if it's outside the UK, you're out of luck. Such is my fate. I have heard that the New Zealanders are more English than the English, but that's an absurd basis on which to run a file sharing system. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 03:57, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
More likely not luck. BBC's iPlayer geolocation is fairly effective and more likely to block someone who should have access then the reverse. I expect Grutness is either with an ISP who offers Global Mode which isn't disappearing until September [40] and it was enabled by default, or someone in charge of the internet connection enabled it. Or alternatively someone in charge of their internet connection or browser set it up to get round the iPlayer geoblock. In any case, you're right the vast majority of people outside the UK are not going to be able to watch the video. Nil Einne (talk) 04:40, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Have you tried a music identification service such as Shazam? It's quite good, but 50 seconds is sometimes not sufficient time for it to work. Matt Deres (talk) 12:58, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
There's currently a brouhaha about Europe possibly severely tightening its "freedom of panorama" rules. Might that IP-based type of restriction also work to prevent Europe from seeing pics that we can see? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:33, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
I think it's more likely that the BBC don't want people to see their programmes in countries which they may later sell them to for large amounts of money.
Also, British people have already paid to see them by stumping up their TV Licence fee. Alansplodge (talk) 19:25, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

July 4[edit]

Stalemates and perpetual checks between chess engines[edit]

Is it known how many draws between competing chess engines were achieved by stalemates or perpetual checks/threefold repetition (possibly including strong ones like Houdini, Rybka and Stockfish)? Thanks in advance. Brandmeistertalk 13:54, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

I have 3 questions about the Jerry Springer show?[edit]

1. Are any of the guests "problems" actully real?
3. Are the transexual people on the show really trans or just pretending? Venustar84 (talk) 18:54, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Is that show still on the air? I think he's been accused of "staging" stuff in the distant past. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:57, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
1) It's rather obvious that they do something to make physical fights happen often, as they erupt way too often on stage to be mere chance. But, the degree to which it's staged is unclear. It's probably not fully staged, with actors playing all the parts and every fight choreographed in advance, as that would leave way too much of a trail. It might just be that getting "guests" on the show that hate each other, then announcing something to make one hate another even more, is enough to start a fight. Could be they offer some financial incentive to fight on the show (perhaps just paying people who are prone to fighting to be on is enough incentive). I'm doubt that any payments specifically to fight could be keep secret for long, though. StuRat (talk) 23:40, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
2) I removed Q 2 ("when was the KKK last on") since you asked below and got an answer there. Don't double post Q's. StuRat (talk) 15:59, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
3) I don't see any reason why they couldn't get real trans people for the show. Presumably they would prefer that, since their viewers might be disappointed if that aspect of the show was revealed to be fake. And, unlike onstage fighting, it shouldn't be hard to find a new transsexual or two for every episode. StuRat (talk) 16:03, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

July 5[edit]


Hello all

Does anyone know what film is used in this Youtube clip?

Thanks :) (talk) 15:46, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

The Baader Meinhof Complex, it also says that in the comments. Nanonic (talk) 16:05, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

How to pronounce Roku[edit]

My wife and I disagree about the pronunciation of "Roku". She says "row-koo", and my idea is "rock-you." Which is correct? --Halcatalyst (talk) 15:46, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Roku, Inc. says "/ˈrk/ ROH-koo", and cites a post on the company's website. Rojomoke (talk) 16:30, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. --Halcatalyst (talk) 16:53, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Wrong Turn at Tahoe plot[edit]

I just watched the movie and seem to have missed a critical plot point. Jeff provided Joshua and in turn his boss Vincent incorrect info that Frank Tahoe was out to kill Vincent. This misinformation causes everyone in the movie to lose their lives, loved ones, or be wounded. So, why was this misinformation given ? I got that Jeff owed $3000 for drugs to somebody and that this was somehow the reason, but I didn't get the details. Was it Frank Tahoe he owed the money to, and was Jeff hoping to cancel his debt when Joshua and Vincent kill him ?

There's also an apparent plot hole, when mob boss Nino orders Vincent's wife brutally killed, even though Joshua and Vincent have already proven they can get the jump on Nino's men. It would therefore be obvious to Nino that he was putting the lives of himself, his wife, and his "soldiers" at risk, by killing Vincent's wife before first killing Joshua and Vincent. So, perhaps I didn't miss anything on Jeff's reasons for lying, and it's just another giant plot hole. StuRat (talk) 23:07, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

July 6[edit]

When was the last time the KKK on the Jerry Springer show?[edit]

Please let me know. Thanks! Venustar84 (talk) 00:56, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Looks like there were a few appearances of current or former KKK members in 1996/7. The most recent I can find is this one [41], which aired Tue, 2006-09-26. There may have been more recent shows with the KKK, but at least this is a starting point. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:47, 6 July 2015 (UTC)


July 1[edit]

Surnames on US Army uniforms[edit]

Did US Army uniforms have names over the pockets during the Korean War? I'm referring to the olive drab BDUs, not the Class As. The question occurred to me as I was watching an episode of M*A*S*H and I can't seem to find anything via searches. Thanks, Dismas|(talk) 03:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

I had a look around and found this. So it appears as though name tape (which looks to be the correct name for them) was in use at the end of the Korean war. Gunrun (talk) 16:24, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I'll have to take your word for that since Google won't let me read that without buying it. Dismas|(talk) 20:13, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I find that often when a Google Books link produces "You have reached your viewing limit for this book", it actually will let me read it if I just click the button to change the size. That worked for me in this case. The book is U.S. Army Uniforms of the Cold War, 1948–1973 by Shelby L. Stanton. In the context of field and work uniforms, it says (on pages 126 and 130):
The "U.S. ARMY" distinguishing insignia was authorized on 27 October 1953 and worn above the left pocket on the jacket. The woven label had golden yellow lettering on a black background. A name tape was added by local unit directives above the right pocket and contained the soldier's last name. Early name tapes were often in branch colors but most were made of white engineer tape with black lettering. Effective 14 July 1966 DA directed that both tapes have black lettering on Olive Green shade 107 cloth.
So the book isn't explicit about when the name tape was added, but if it was initially a matter of "local unit directives" then it sounds as if some units would have had them before others. -- (talk) 06:45, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
But if you do a Google image search for photos of "Mobile army surgical korea", you'll find bunches of pictures of people in real MASH units - (eg and I didn't see name-tags on any of them. SteveBaker (talk) 20:52, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the responses and references. The bit about white tape with black lettering reminds me of something I heard years ago about the white tape being changed to a darker color because enemy soldiers would see the white more easily and aim for it. Thanks again, Dismas|(talk) 12:35, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Restaurant incubators[edit]

With mobile apps for ordering delivered food I am wondering if anyone has started a sort of incubator for restaurants. By this I mean the incubator is like a cubicle farm of kitchens with each kitchen cubicle essentially being an individual restaurant kitchen. Each of these kitchen restaurants offer menus and take orders from their mobile app page. All of these kitchen restaurants share the same pool of takeout delivery drivers located at the incubator. Muzzleflash (talk) 12:58, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

We have articles Business incubator and Kitchen incubator. The latter seems to have some external links at the bottom that might list some extant examples, not sure if any of them work precisely as you describe. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:57, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
  • I have a dim memory of reading, within the past few years, of such a project in New York(?) which was shut down essentially because the model doesn't fit the relevant Procrustean regulatory boxes. —Tamfang (talk) 07:23, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Your suggested model is rather limiting. What if someone wants to pick up an order? What if someone wants to sit and eat? If you remove those limitations, you end up with something like the Food Court at the Reagan Building in Washington DC. It is a food court. There are multiple little cubbies along the wall, each housing a small restaurant. You can go to one and get food. There are multiple tables to eat at, regardless of which restaurant you get food from. You can get a to-go order. You can also order delivery service from one of many Washington DC delivery services (which costs a fee for delivery and a tip is still expected). My opinion is that stripping away the ability to stop by and pick up an order will make the entire model rather unattractive to a restaurant owner as what you are offering is essentially a food truck that cannot go anywhere and is limited to delivery only. (talk) 16:27, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I think this business model could work, with a few provisos:
1) Would probably only work in a small community. In a large community, they can already order any kind of take-out they want, so you wouldn't have an advantage. But, in a small community, which can't support full-scale restaurants of every type, you might be able to fill a niche.
2) I agree that allowing people to pick up their orders, and thus eliminate delivery fees, might be a good idea. You could also provide "self serve" tables, soft drink machines, etc., as some people don't want the mess at their house.
3) You should allow in-person, phone, and home computer orders, too. Why limit your business to just mobile apps ?
I agree that you shouldn't offer full table service, as that requires a whole different level of staff and service. StuRat (talk) 03:11, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Where is a good safe place for a 31 year woman with aspergers in Vancouver Canada to meet a man with the same condition to date?[edit]

I don't know where to start. Venustar84 (talk) 19:28, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

If you Google the phrase: "meetup aspergers Vancouver Canada", you'll see that there are at least 4 or 5 groups who support people with Aspergers syndrome who meet in that area. Those groups are great places to meet people in similar situations - and providing you're sure that a reasonable number of people are going to show up, and that the meeting is in a public place, they are very safe places to meet and chat with people.
From my brief history of attending such meetups in Austin, TX (I'm a high-functioning aspie myself) - I feel that I should remind you that Aspergers' is a spectrum condition - meaning that you'll meet people who range from the lucky 'high-functioning' types through to the less fortunate people with rather severe problems holding their lives together.
It's worth remembering that most 'aspies' (even the high-functioning kind) find it hard to form relationships at the best of times - and when two aspies try to make it together in life, it can be doubly hard. That said, the bond of mutual understanding is worth having.
Some of those groups are intended mainly for parents of Asperger children - and you'll probably want to avoid those. Aside from the fact that you're unlikely to meet a man with the same condition at one of those events, the parents tend to be dead set on 'fixing' what they see as 'broken' children rather than trying to understand and support them - and that can get REALLY annoying for those of us who are victims - doubly so for those of us who do not accept the utterly debunked theory that autism & aspergers is caused by vaccinations or diet or...whatever crazy theory it is this time around. <sigh>.
On the plus side, aspergers occurs predominantly in males - so you'll undoubtedly find more men than women in these groups.
Good luck in your hunt!
SteveBaker (talk) 20:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
In addition to specific meetups for people with Asperger's, you might also do well just to check out hobby groups and meetings that may attract a certain type of people that you might get along with. For instance, I know some people on the Autism spectrum that are highly involved with various types of Maker_culture clubs. Some are really into role playing games, either pen & paper, or computer-based, or things like Magic The Gathering, etc. Another person I know is really into exotic pets - ferrets specifically. Science also seems to attract many people on the spectrum, but that's just my WP:OR. Anyway, I don't know what you're into and maybe none of those are your cup of tea, but my main point is that you might have just as much luck going to groups that are based around your interests, rather than based around your condition. Indeed, if you have a condition and like a certain activity, others who share your condition may like the same activity. I assume you're aware of online dating, but I'll also point out that you can search sites like OK Cupid for Aspie, Asperger's, etc.; it seems that many people on the site declare their status and interest in seeking same. SemanticMantis (talk) 21:23, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
To add my ObPersonal tuppenceworth: active Science Fiction Fandom includes a noticeably high proportion of people variously positioned on the spectrum, so you could check out any local SF/Fantasy fan clubs, and perhaps try attending a Convention for a day if one happens conveniently near you (I'd recommend going for smaller rather than larger, and fan-organised rather than commercial). I can't guarantee that no-one at all in Fandom that you might meet might be predatory, but the community is increasingly aware of harassment issues and many convention committees are introducing explicit anti-harassment policies (since in the modern world, sadly, courteous behaviour can no longer be taken as read.) {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 13:01, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

July 2[edit]

Table EE Pending GRG Cases[edit]

Why isn't the November update ready yet? This is the third week I have been waiting for it and still no November update? I don't know my anonymous IP address on Wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:26, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Which article are you referring to? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:57, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Possibly a reference to this table? If so, there's no way we can know the answer to your question. You will need to use the contact email given on that page.--Shantavira|feed me 08:52, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
As you were told last time you asked, we have no idea since we are not involved with the site. You will need to contact people involved in the site. If you've tried and didn't receive a reply or have even been put on an auto-ignore list, you shouldn't be surprised since it's unresonable to get that anxious or demanding for a resource which you aren't even paying for. Nil Einne (talk) 15:56, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

July 4[edit]

Is the wikipedia reference desk an suitable place for me to ask mental health questions?[edit]

Questions about the ref desk itself belong at the ref desk talk page, I have moved this there, please continue there if you have further questions or comments. μηδείς (talk) 03:34, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

See I have aspergers and borderline personality disorder. Is asking for mental health advice appropriate here? Venustar84 (talk) 02:21, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

No, you can't ask questions about your specific case, but you can ask Q's about those disorders, in general, like when those conditions were first recognized. StuRat (talk) 02:29, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict)If a question is directly about those conditions, it's not appropriate to ask for advice as it would fall under medical advice.
However, it should be appropriate to ask for WP:MEDRSs about the subject. It would also probably be fine to indirectly get answers by asking questions about related topics, such as social interaction, especially if it focuses on other people. It should also be fine to ask for WP:RSs by or about people who have Aspergers and/or borderline personality disorder.
For example, "how could someone with borderline personality disorder deal with their concerns about abandonment?" would be an inappropriate question. But "are their any autobiographies by authors who dealt with concerns about abandonment, especially authors with borderline personality disorder?" would be appropriate, as would "are there any case studies about the effectiveness of different therapeutic techniques to deal with concerns about abandonment?" Ian.thomson (talk) 02:37, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Do cats...[edit]

...actually eat mice? KägeTorä - () (もしもし!) 13:15, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes. You may find this of interest. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:41, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
They do on occasion, but house cats typically consider mice playthings rather than sources of food (assuming the house cat is adequately fed). I've read that farm cats which are fed catfood are actually better mousers than ones that have been left to fend for themselves for food; when killing mice is serious business, cats work just as economically as a wild animal would - they don't want to exert energy if they're not hungry enough to eat. However, well-fed cats gleefully destroy all the small animals in their path, using the body parts as toys as they see fit. Matt Deres (talk) 15:55, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Our cat kills mice (and voles and other small mammals) and sometimes eats them (often leaving some of the innards) and sometimes brings them in as presents. Sometimes his presents are still alive, which is more of a problem.--Phil Holmes (talk) 16:08, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
There's also times where a cat will hunt the small animal with the intention of eating it, bring it home, and only then remember their delicious and easier to chew food bowl. It's kind of like grabbing a sack of dollar burgers only to come home and discover that your family has already grilled some prime rib. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:46, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I am asking this as there is a BBC article about cats having a special chemical - felinine - in their urine, which controls the mice, either by having the adult pregnant female mice actually abort their babies, or by making young baby mice less fearful of cats. The final line says that it suits their need for mice. As Phil says, I always thought they were just bringing them in as presents. KägeTorä - () (もしもし!) 17:32, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

This may not be related to your question but I just thought I'd mention this article. Bus stop (talk) 17:55, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Linking to felinine seems appropriate. I'm not a biochemist, but I doubt there's something intrinsic to mice that the cat would need to create this substance, so even cats who never ate a mouse would still excrete it. Matt Deres (talk) 18:53, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
I wonder if the BBC meant rats infected Toxoplasma gondii (third paragraph). CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 01:08, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Is there a link to this BBC article? Rodents abort or eat their young when under enough stress that postponing the effort of raising a litter makes economic sense. If a cat is peeing that close to the nest, finding a new nest is a better Idea. As for the fearlessness indeed caused by T. gondii, that's a separate issue not related to felinine. μηδείς (talk) 23:41, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Maybe it's this article. Bus stop (talk) 12:28, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Censorship, RAT-Access[edit]

I looked up "informants" and noticed that the article cannot be edited. There is evidence that someone has had remotely accessed my PC with a Remote Access Tojan (RAT), therefore I do report whenever there is a suspicion of censorship, for instance, by someone's removing of the "edit" option. I think that censorship of a law-abiding adult without any accusations or convictions of Internet crimes or Internet abuse is a huge deal. Regarding the definition of "informant," I have been wondering whether one should call citizens who witness a crime and inform law enforcement "informers" to set them apart from (paid) "informants," who wander in the world of law and in the worlds of crime and terrorism. Cornelia T. Bradford — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3299:C080:9D38:774B:1236:4D51 (talk) 20:19, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

The article Informant is permanently semi-protected, presumably due to persistent vandalism. If you had a registered account, you could edit it. And as regards "law-abiding citizens" or whatever, there is no constitutional right to edit Wikipedia, nor is Wikipedia censored for content as you're implying. Also, this is not really the right page to file this complaint, but someone else can figure out where it should be directed instead. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:29, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
I don't think she's complaining about the article's semi-protection constituting censorship, I think she was referring to her (incorrect) concern that the absence of the edit tab might be due to her being somehow censored by a computer virus. -Elmer Clark (talk) 10:09, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Was there a vaguely similar complaint a few weeks ago? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:50, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
You could start by asking the admin who protected it. He was active on Wikipedia as recently as 2 days ago. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:33, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
If you'd like to request an edit, you can request an edit. Do it on the article's talk page. Those are virtually never locked. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:46, July 4, 2015 (UTC)

July 5[edit]



I was wondering if you can recommend some anecdote-books, such as books about political anecdotes, military anecdotes, diplomatic anecdotes, entertainment anecdotes, and so forth.

thanks so much! — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:53, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Oxford University Press has published The Oxford Book of Literary Anecdotes, The Oxford Book of Military Anecdotes, The Oxford Book of Legal Anecdotes, The Oxford Book of Royal Anecdotes, Eurekas and Euphorias: The Oxford Book of Scientific Anecdotes, and perhaps others. Deor (talk) 14:49, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Requested article-space correction of birthplace of Dominic Barrett[edit]

July 6[edit]

How to find total number of links[edit]

I want to know how to find the total number of links from an entry, like Peking University. Now I'm doing some statistics about links to and links from some entries. I want to get a way to quickly know the total number of links of the both types I mentioned. Thanks very much for your help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:DA8:201:1102:483C:5F36:1186:CD91 (talk) 14:51, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Ponies in search history and on recommended videos on YouTube please help[edit]

There seems to be ponies on my search history and on my recommend YouTube videos so can you help me with this mystery..? I do know a bit about MLP:FiM but I've never been a fan so could you give me a idea as to why these sort of girly cute looking pony videos show up on my history and YouTube. I am not a brony so could you please help me because high school is a judgemental place! Thank you. (talk) 16:19, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

The obvious answer is that somebody else is using your PC/account. Do you have a little sister ? Or maybe a friend of yours does it as a practical joke. Setting a password on your account and always putting it in that mode when you walk away would be a good idea. Meanwhile, can you wipe your search history to solve the current issue ? StuRat (talk) 16:27, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
You'll need to give us more information for us to properly help. At the least: 1) Is this a single-user computer or a shared computer? 2) if shared, how do you sign in to the computer? What is the operating system? 3) what web browser are you using? 4)Do you sign in to youtube?
Here's directions on how to clear cookies and history from Firefox [42] [43]. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:15, 6 July 2015 (UTC)