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April 24[edit]

Recommendation for software to make compilation music CDs[edit]

I'm asking for a recommendation for software to make compilation music CDs from other CDs. I want to read in several CDs, store the files on the HD, and then pick sets of them to burn to a CD. Years ago I used Roxio and Nero for this, but they got too difficult to use for this purpose. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 00:59, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

For ripping CDs I use Sound Juicer, Ubuntu's default ripper. To compile compilations I use SoX to take the sources and emit a .CDR file which I burn with wodim. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 08:49, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Just saw this query and thanks for the suggestions. I've used Windows software for the purpose till now but I am inclining towards moving to Linux as I just have had so many problems with databases, and things just stop working with new releases of windows. I think it would allow me more control as I could fix the software if things go wrong. I need interoperability with a spreadsheet and to be able to print labels and CD covers easily. Actually I only put the track names only on the case rather than the CD - this makes for less work. I just print an identifying picture and id on the CDs. Dmcq (talk) 12:04, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Personally I don't create a cover slip (the audio CDs I create are small samples for a pub quiz, so obviously a track listing is a bad thing). Perhaps unfortunately, I'm a "I'll write a Python program" type person, so if I did need some kind of database and cover-sheet printing solution, that's what I'd probably do, and it wouldn't be helpful for other people in general. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 12:10, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, but I should state that I want to use Windows and I don't want to use a command-line interface. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 14:19, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I use a completely customized setup, with a front-end I wrote, a batch files modified from one I found on SO, VLC Media Player and a custom MySQL database for similar functionality at my home. If you're looking to create such a system, I wouldn't mind sharing some of the insights I got from (and difficulties I had) setting that up, but I don't want to bore you to tears if the answer you're looking for is more "SoftwareSoft's Generic Media Player Classic Plus Lite 2017 v1.2 Enhanced Edition does everything you want." ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:43, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, basically what I want is a simple system, really for two slightly different things. (10 I want to read in several CDs and it shows me the complete list of songs. I want to choose songs from that list to burn to a CD. It keeps track of the total amount selected from a CD, so I know how many I can get. After I burn that CD, it marks those songs as done and I can choose another set to burn to another CD, etc. Mode (2) - similar, but I want to read only certain songs from the source CDs. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 17:07, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Windows Media Player should actually do all that. it will rip and burn music, and .wma's have a lossless codec option, so no mp3 distortion. It's just a matter of setting up your library to show all files instead of automatically sorting them. Since you need to be there to swap CDs, I don't see how ripping them one at a time is a bad thing (if you have multiple drives, I believe WMP will rip from all of them simultaneously, though I'm not sure). ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:36, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
My first thought was iTunes, which I'm sure will do all that. --Viennese Waltz 07:36, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
I've never used iTunes, but I read that it's really strict with DRM (to the point of adding DRM to ripped music), so I wonder if it's suitable for something like this. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:58, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
I don't think it is as strict as it used to be. My brother lost a lot of music he personally ripped when iTunes decided it was pirated and deleted it from his laptop and phone. That was years ago and they've apparently been much better since. (talk) 13:33, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Same thing happened to a friend of mine, hence my reservations. I'm sure they've gotten a bit better, though. They couldn't possibly have gotten any worse. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:07, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
I suspect you have other bugs - Windows or iTunes on Windows bugs. I've used iTunes on the Mac since Powerbook G4 times, and while iTunes Store music used to come with DRM, I've never had iTunes delete any of my music or add anything to ripped music, wether ripped to MP3 or AAC. iTunes has quirks, and they keep deproving the UI, but it is reasonably to use, and it can burn playlist in most formats to plain old CDs. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:31, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
My friend (to whom this happened) has a Mac. Used it with his iPod at the time, and now with his iPhone. He also has a (neck) beard and wears flannel to his job in a call center. Sometimes I wonder if I want to remain friends with him. (Yes, I'm being facetious.) He's not particularly technical, though he is young enough to have grown up around computers. It could have been a head space and timing fault. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:51, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Or a classical PBCK error with a touch of Chinese Whispers ;-). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:31, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Well it definitely wasn't Chinese whispers, but it certainly could have been one of the others. He is, after all, marginally smarter than your average box of rocks. Yes, Scott. I know you're reading thing. Knowing my handle on WP and how to find my contributions page does not make you a hacker. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:49, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
I tried Windows Media Player. It does rip and burn, bu I still have to do most of the work in making compilation CDs. There is a fluke where it says to drag songs to the playlist, but that doesn't work - you have to right click and send it. But it still leaves most of the work to me - things programs are good at. As far as I can tell, it doesn't tell me the total length of the selected songs until I get them into the area ready to burn. This is needed to see if I can get more songs on the CD or if I have selected too many to go on the CD. Also, after I have used a song on a CD, it doesn't mark that it has already been used. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 01:27, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
MySQL, SharpDevelop and the right google search time, then! Seriously, I'm out of ideas that don't involve hacking something together. Sorry bout that. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 04:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Yeah I used to use Windows Media Player. But then its database got into a mess. And so now I hate it though to a much lesser degree that Windows Word which I just hate hate hate. So I moved away to Wiamp, which isn't supported. Dmcq (talk) 12:04, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

April 25[edit]

Copying a Bash script from Windows into WSL (CMD) adds carriage returns[edit]

I copy a Bash script from a .sh file stored in Windows10 into nano in WSL (CMD). Yet, the script is copied with carriage returns and these break script execution in WSL. Before copying, I access the script file with Notepad++.

The more the CMD window (tty) is narrower, the more carriage returns are created when the script is created.

I start nano with the following syntax (.sh give Bash highlighting) and the CR characters are seen as little Green boxes:

nano ~/ && chmod +x ~/ && sh ~/ && rm ~/

Any ideas? Ben-Yeudith (talk) 12:30, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Windows always prefers 0D 0Ah for a new line in text files. Use Notepad++. NPP also allows to replace the \r\n by \n when setting the checkboxes in the find and replace dialog box, using CTRL+H. && is a new command in the same line, accepted by Linux and Windows. --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 12:41, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Too bad I didn't mention that (edited to mention): I copy the script TO Nano FROM Notepad++, yet Carriage returns are still created as per the length of the CMD TTY window. This seems unrelated to the particular text editor I copy from, user:Hans Haase. Ben-Yeudith (talk) 12:55, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Once using a Windows editor, the CRs are inserted. Remove them manually by STRG+H and replace \r\n by \n, using the checkboxes insode the replace dialog box. How did You transfer the file from Linux to Windows? --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 13:06, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
I have no problem to remove them in Notepad++, the problem is that they are inserted when the script conent is pasted in nano (to be later saved in a file and executed inside WSL), hence, they are included inside the nano script. When I do search and replace in nano on either \r\n or \r I find nothing but that doesn't really matter because I am looking for a way to prevent Windows to add these in the pasting anyway. Ben-Yeudith (talk) 13:15, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
The transfer is with WSL. You can copy and paste anything you want in the WSL window and there shouldn't be any problem with that naturally, the point is working cross platform easily with WSL. Ben-Yeudith (talk) 13:17, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Adjust the checkboxes inside the find and replace dialog! --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 14:42, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Again, my problem is not with Notepad++. This has nothing to do to any GUI editor in Windows. Ben-Yeudith (talk) 16:59, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
when you say copy, do you mean you copy and paste text from the Windows clipboard into nano which is running in a console window? if you do cat > file.txt (paste, then Ctrl-D) do you still get extra line breaks? Asmrulz (talk) 10:36, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
HI sSer:Asmrulz: Yes, that's what I mean, and the last timre I tried that in the method of (cat > AND_THEN paste AND_THEN CTRL+D it did work without problems). Ben-Yeudith (talk) 11:12, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Then I guess it's nano. Asmrulz (talk) 11:45, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
From (very cursory) googling nano seems to be inserting hard line breaks by default [1][2] Normally, editors should just break lines for display (so you don't have to scroll horizontally) but not insert linebreaks into the file when saving. Try to alias nano to nano -w. Is it some remote thing where the editor is running on a remote machine and the TTY is on yours? If so, find a way to copy files to the remote machine without having to paste text into an editor, such as with scp, netcat or something Asmrulz (talk) 11:57, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Sadly, User:Asmrulz, it happens when I paste the same code in heredocuments as well, not only with regular scripts in Nano... If I use cat > AND_THEN paste AND_THEN CTRL+D, it works with heredocuments as well, but if I don't, they too fail. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:02, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure how to fix it in nano, but I do have some notes on how to fix this using vi:

To remove the ^M characters at the end of all lines in vi, use:


The ^V is a CONTROL-V character and ^M is a CONTROL-M. When you type this, it will look like this:

Hope this helps. Random character sequence (talk) 17:19, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

For solution see here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ben-Yeudith (talkcontribs) 16:41, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

April 26[edit]

Smart phone specification[edit]

What is the processor speed and RAM required for a phone that could last for 5 years...? (talk) 19:40, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

That's impossible to say, as we really can't predict what the operating systems and apps will require 5 years from now. StuRat (talk) 20:30, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Which isn't to say that we don't try. Honestly, the best answer I can give to this question is "A phone that won't be released for at least two more years." ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:45, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
All we can do is look into the past.
A reasonable number of people, allegedly including Donald Trump[1], still use the once-popular Samsung Galaxy S3.
If Donald Trump bought the phone the day it came out, then that phone will be five years old in 32 days. Presumably he's still happy with it.
The President aside, I used to carry an S3, and I now keep it turned off in a drawer as a backup in case I lose my current phone and can't afford to replace it. It's a nice little phone and it wouldn't kill me to use it again.
I think that's the best answer we can give you. Five years ago, if you had bought a newly released, top-of-the-line phone with a replaceable battery, you'd still have a perfectly fine phone today.
You'll have to use your judgement as to whether that wisdom will hold true for the next five years. ApLundell (talk) 00:58, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
We should also point out that if you're OK with using 5 year old phones, you can save a lot of money by buying them when they are already several years old, even if you end up buying one every couple years instead of every 5 years. This is due to bleeding edge technology pricing. StuRat (talk) 19:28, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
RAM has still increased the wait states or CL when increasing the frequency. This means it is waiting more cycles of an higher frequency. Is my car in Europe faster than in the US? In the US it drive it 65 MPH, in Europe 107 km/h. Whats the different? Yes it is the same speed. But using two memory channels make it transfer the double data rate within the same technology of RAM. --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 23:56, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

.apk file[edit]

Looking for ‘’.apk’’ file type(s) opensouce software(s) similar to, or exactly like, or the "MS Office" itself, without on-line connectivity issue.

1) Word, Excel and Outlook are very important; require the full functionality… 2) I would like to sync the Outlook with the PC Outlook without the connectivity issue, desirable. (talk) 20:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

There's always AndrOpen Office. It requires Android 2.3 or later. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:47, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
AndrOpen Office is pretty sketchy. It is a fork of Apache Open Office, but ... it doesn't seem to be open source. Which is obviously not right or proper. And it is ad supported!
There's [LibreOffice] (.apk available), which is pretty incomplete.
I'm not sure there is a good open-source office suite for android. Most people use Google Docs which, of course, requires access to the Google cloud, and I don't think it's open-source in any meaningful way. ApLundell (talk) 14:36, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

April 27[edit]

Monitor cracking sound[edit]

My monitor (ROG Swift '27) sometimes, but very rarely, make a relatively loud cracking sound. Like cracking your knuckles, whether it's on or when it's been off for a while (even hours). I've read that it's apparently the plastic shell that's expanding and contracting due to temperature?

I believe that's relatively normal and not harmful, at least according to Google? I believe my PlayStation did the same when I owned one. My PC does the same. Matt714 (talk) 09:24, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

  • By your description, it could be the same phenomenon as in a pop pop boat, but it is hard to know for sure if you have not identified where the noise comes from. TigraanClick here to contact me 11:45, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
  • It's relatively normal for plastic components to make cracking/popping noises as they expand and contract. Plastic expands and contracts quite a bit as it heats/cools. (Expansion of fitted parts, if they don't slide smoothly, puts them under stress. I believe the actual noise occurs when two pieces under stress suddenly slip.) Sometimes improperly installed plastic plumbing will have the same problem when you run hot water through it.
Some Apple Mac desktop machines are notorious for this.
I can't find a good article explaining this, but here's a FAQ on Samsung's website about one of their TVs. [2]
ApLundell (talk) 14:16, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
As for how to fix the problem, if the plastic case is attached with multiple screws, perhaps loosening or even removing a few might give it room to expand and contract. If this is not done, the stresses may ultimately cause the case to crack and split. StuRat (talk) 15:08, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Cracking sound usually comes from sparks of high voltage. Since LED back lights is should be obsolete. CCFL back lights still use about 3 kv inverters. LED inverters use higher voltages as wells due the LEDs are in series circuit. ASUS specified the ROG Swift '27 with an in panel back light inverter. If nobody took the monitor wet, it might be the power supply caught dirt of some capacitors begin failing. --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 23:47, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

The Samsung thing was reassuring. I've asked elsewhere and many reported the same thing, but no failure even after years. The constantly vacillating temperature in Québec right now probably does not help. My PC does it as well. Matt714 (talk) 00:37, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Non-support of font tags[edit]

As I understand it, <font>...</font> tags were deprecated in HTML 4.0 (in the late 1990s, according to HTML), which is why their continued use in customized Wikipedia signatures is controversial. I'm on one side of the fence or the other, depending on the answer to one question: What is likely to happen with all the font tags in our archives if (when) browsers finally drop support? Will browsers continue to recognize them but ignore them, or will they be exposed on the rendered page? Are there any precedents to judge by? ―Mandruss  16:08, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Currently, every web browser that I use ignores unsupported tags. So, if a tag is not supported, it doesn't show up to the user. It is simply ignored completely. I see no reason to assume that it will change if a browser stops parsing a font tag. It will just see the tag and ignore it. No harm. Remember that failing gracefully is important in HTML. (talk) 16:20, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
So a current signature
Exampletalk 14:24, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
will display as:
Exampletalk 14:24, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
not as (font changed to fint):
<fint face="Times New Roman" color="#930">Example</fint><fint color="#D7000B">talk</fint> 14:24, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
and we would expect that to hold true until the end of time, or the end of Wikipedia as we know it, whichever comes first? ―Mandruss  16:37, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
While that's true, there's also the issue of mediawiki parsing. For example <foo>bar</foo> shows up explicitly without me using <nowiki> tags because mediawiki doesn't recognize it as a valid HTML tag. That being said, I doubt the developers at WMF will ever decide to just drop a recognized tag like that. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:00, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
So you're ok with all of your existing sigs in the archives rendering as ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it.. If you're happy I'm happy, it will just be 17 wasted and superfluous characters of wikitext for each of your signatures. ―Mandruss  17:45, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Well, my sig doesn't use a font to produce the characters, it uses unicode characters (elder futhark runes, to be specific). But it doesn't bother me too much for it not to render properly from time to time, because most of the time it does. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:58, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
You will lose the green in all existing sigs when the support is dropped. ―Mandruss  18:22, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Wow, I honestly didn't realize I had used the font tag. Well, I've changed it to a span tag now. But no, it wouldn't bother me that much. I only picked green (and added the shadows) because it makes it easy for me to spot my signature on talk pages, to know where I left off. The only real vanity in my signature is the phrase "tell me all about it" and the runic characters. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:49, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Just out of interest, what should the seven boxes really look like if I had a runic font? Dbfirs 19:46, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
@Dbfirs: Something like this: File:Mandruss-screenshot.png. ―Mandruss  20:55, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
@Dbfirs: Check out Runic (Unicode block)#Fonts for some free fonts that support it. Arial is one of the fonts that do, and while it's not free, it should be included with most modern web browsers. If you have one of those installed and your browser doesn't display it check out this site for instructions on how to get it working. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:13, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Oh, and while it's acceptable to call them "boxes" under normal circumstances, when they show up in my signature, they're "squares". ;) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:15, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Needless to say. SpongeBob BoxPants would make no sense whatsoever. ―Mandruss  21:19, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for explaining the "squares". Now that I know what they mean, I won't bother installing elder futhark runes, but just think of you as squarepants (no offence intended). Dbfirs 07:58, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Curious - why were font tags deprecated??? Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty | Averted crashes 19:13, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Because CSS handles it better and easier. Notice how the signature in my last comment is slightly larger than this one (and the previous ones?) That's because my use of the font tag broke the css class I'd put it into. I didn't realize it because I got the result I wanted, but once I switched to a span tag, the CSS class started working again. (I removed the class from my signature between then and now). ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:27, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
For the same reason, bold, italic, and underline were initially deprecated in HTML4 and then reintroduced in HTML5. I assumed font would be reintroduced as well, but it wasn't. (talk) 11:55, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, those are tags that a lot of people use inline. I figure they brought them back because <b></b> is easier to use than <span class="boldDefault"></span> where you have to set up a bold, italic and underline class for each typography used on the page. I know I appreciated it for that reason. I've also noticed that the new implementation works better with complex CSS rules. The older ones (similar to the <font></font> tag) could screw with class properties of tags like <p></p> and <span></span>, though it seemed to handle <div></div> just fine. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:24, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Javascript bitwise operations[edit]

How do bitwise operations work in javascript since everything is a float? (note that there is no error when you do something like 5.2 & 3.6). (talk) 20:19, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

The bitwise operators work on signed 32 bit integers. If the operand is a double float (and this is the basic type for a JavaScript Number) then it will be cast to a signed int32 first. As doubles are pretty long (52 bit fraction) then this is a practical process, although there's obviously a minor overhead (but hey, that's going to be the least of your worries in any plausible JavaScript context).
There's also a lot of scope for optimisation here. The JavaScript engine doesn't necessarily convert back to the double float, unless it needs to. So complex bitwise expressions could be processed almost entirely in the int form (but you'd never know). Andy Dingley (talk) 20:55, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Display Resolution[edit]

What is the difference between "1280*720" and "720*1280" on a phone? (talk) 22:53, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

AFAIK resolution is always width x height. So the first would be wider than tall and the second would be taller than wide. Landscape vs portrait orientation. Both measurements are in pixels of course. ―Mandruss  23:00, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

April 28[edit]

How do I get Gmail to stop using captchas ?[edit]

It used to just let me log in with my username and password, and remembered both on my home PC, but now they started adding captchas randomly, without even asking if I wanted them, which I find intensely annoying. How do I turn them off ? StuRat (talk) 04:38, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

I assume you're not doing anything that would cause google to think you're using a brand new computer each time. (Cookie cleaners, incognito mode, overly-aggressive browser privacy plugins, etc.)
It's possible that Google's mysterious hacking detection systems have decided your account is under attack or at risk. Do you have an email app running on a phone or PC that is constantly checking your email with an out of date password? That's a common cause of this.
Allegedly some causes of this problem can be cleared by going to
ApLundell (talk) 14:34, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Not doing any of that, no. Maybe it's the IP range they don't trust. I'll check out that site, thanks. StuRat (talk) 14:39, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Uh, I suppose we should at least pay lip service to the idea that it might not be a false alarm, and that Google really might have good reason to keep checking your humanity. If there's a risk that someone really is trying to dictionary-attack your gmail account, switching your account over to two-factor security would be a good idea.
I believe that would stop them from offering captcha checks, but of course two-factor can be just as irritating as captchas. ApLundell (talk) 14:58, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) It might have decided your IP range was suspicious or something. If you stay on the same address for a while it might settle down. For all sorts of reasons I prefer Fastmail to Gmail, though it isn't free (but there's no ads, it doesn't spy on you, etc). That would be another way to fix it. (talk) 14:35, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

I should point out that the login panel has changed, so this new security feature may just come with the new login screen. StuRat (talk) 19:30, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Is somebody brute-force attacking the account? --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 23:37, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
I have no reason to think so. StuRat (talk) 00:47, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

test a page interacting with cam on Chrome[edit]

I have to test a page interacting with cam on Chrome. So I'm trying to launch Chrome with option '--user-data-dir=/test/only/profile/dir', yet I get the error 'Chrome cannot read and write to its data directory', although I set custom permissions to AppData Chrome folders.. Could you please help me?

Cheers --12:09, 28 April 2017 (UTC)~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Luga lambrusco (talkcontribs)

Cron expressions[edit]

What do these two cron expressions mean?

Start time:

0 0/1 * 1/1 * ? *

Stop time:

0 0 2 ? * * *

Thanks, †dismas†|(talk) 14:37, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

As far as I know, cron expressions have only 5 fields (minute, hour, day of month, month, day of week), so those examples are ill-formed.
According to man 5 crontab on the NETBSD UNIX system I have access to, "?" means "a single value randomly selected when the crontab file is read". For example, if it's in the hour field for an action to be performed daily, that action might be performed at 03:00 every day and then change to 23:00 when the system is rebooted or the crontab file is changed. And / means "every nth". For example, in the hour field */2 means hours 0,2,4,...,22 of the day, or 0-10/2 means 0,2,4,6,8,10. So as far as I can see it makes no sense to write /1 or to use / with a single number on the left.
-- (talk) 21:37, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
The cron replacement nncron extends the cron syntax to allow a sixth field, to specify the year. [3] I'm not aware of any cron replacement that uses seven fields but there might be one. "?" is not standard cron syntax, but nncron uses it to mean "the time that the daemon started". I'm also unsure what the OP means by "start time" and "stop time". Each cron specification specifies the time that a command is to be started. There's no such concept as a "stop time" in standard cron (what would it do, kill the process if it's still running at that time?) CodeTalker (talk) 21:50, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

iphone 5S with no battery[edit]

I can get an iphone 5S cheap that has a bad battery. Rather than replacing the battery I'm thinking of removing it completely, and using an external power pack like a Mophie. Does anyone know if the 5S works ok with no internal battery? Yes I know it's easy to replace, but I don't like the iphone feature that it's impossible to know that it's completely powered off. Unplugging the external battery would fix that. Thanks. (Also: how long does it take to cold boot a 5S from powerup? Same question for Ipod Touch 6th gen I guess). (talk) 14:38, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

This is a pretty bad idea and will absolutely void your warranty. It might "work" - the phone might turn on - but you probably can't even begin to imagine the vast number of ways this will change the device's behavior. It might also turn your phone into a devastating fire-hazard!
Apple's official information page says: "Don’t attempt to replace the iPhone battery yourself—you may damage the battery, which could cause overheating, fire, and injury. The lithium-ion battery in your iPhone should be serviced or recycled by Apple or an authorized service provider...", and points you to the Battery Service webpage.
Do you enjoy unpredictable software and hardware behaviors? Do you enjoy debugging them without access to documentation? Do you think you know enough about lithium batteries to prevent lithium fires? I'm sure you've carefully reviewed the chemical cell safety data sheet, the power controller ASIC documentation, and the software design specification for the battery controller, because you magically got access to all of these documents and could afford the time and engineering-talent to review them? You're very sure that what you're about to do is safe and will not cause over-current or short-circuits or any other electrical or chemical hazard? Because that's a risk that Apple specifically points out when it warns you not to try to replace or modify the battery yourself.
Nimur (talk) 20:09, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

This advice is questionable. Whatever crap Apple may say, unless you screw up when you remove or dispose of the battery and it catches fire, there would have to be something incredibly wrong the iPhone for it to catch fire just because the battery is removed. Software design specification for the battery controller etc are red herring since the OP specifically said they aren't planning to replace the battery. They're simply going to use it without a battery but without an external power plug. The iPhone may not be designed to be used without a battery (as I said below, it most likely simply won't work) but it should be sufficiently designed such that it won't catch fire when someone does try to use it without a battery unless Apple designers are complete idiots. And hopefully you Nimur can attest that they're not. The battery pack the OP is using, if it's a decent one, will have it's own built in safety, such that even if the iPhone does try to do something stupid like draw 10A, it will prevent this and definitely prevent the lithium ion battery inside the battery pack from catching fire. If it doesn't then it's a piece of junk and having access to a wealth of Apple technical document doesn't help. (In other words, protecting the battery in the power pack is largely the responsibility of the power pack designers, not Apple.)

Now removing a non removable lithium ion battery isn't without risks, and yes you could cause a fire if you majorly screw up. Definitely you should have knowledge of the risks involved, and how to deal with them before trying it. But you do not need, and we can be fairly sure not even all Apple certified repairers know all that info about the software controller etc. It's not germane to what they're doing, which is solely to open the iPhone and remove the battery. Even if they have access to the documentation, it's largely a moot point. If you accidentally poke a hole in the battery, you need to know what to do right now, not read up on crap about the software controller. (Of course you should be sufficiently competent that this never happens.) Disposing of the battery safely is another minor concern, hopefully your jurisdiction has some sort of hazardous waste scheme to deal with. But anyway, even if you do something incredibly stupid like throw the battery out with the regular trash, maybe you'll cause a fire in the rubbish truck or dump (in reality probably not), but it's not going to affect your iPhone and battery pack. Well unless the fire spreads to your house or something.

Definitely the people who install the battery in the China in the first place do not know any of that stuff, although it's obviously a lot harder to safely remove a battery than it is to safely install it in the factory. A middle ground would be those who are helping in the recycling of the iPhone. Apple doesn't have the capability (nor I'm thinking the policy even in a number of places where they official sell the iPhone) to be the ones collecting all iPhones for recycling. [4] This means it's down to other ewaste experts to deal with. And we can be fairly sure these people do not have, and it would be ridiculous to expect them to have, all that info before they remove the iPhone battery. They just need the technical expertise on how to safely remove the battery (including what to do if something goes wrong), and what to do with it after.

Nil Einne (talk) 02:15, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

USB chargers just limit the output voltage an the output current. This are not power supplies, they are still chargers. If a computer or similar logic device needs more power in a peak, the voltage drops and causes a brownout of the CPUs. A battery filters the peak. If there's no battery, the device still might not startup. Wen playing with old mobile phones for scrap, carefully have an experienced person remove the battery, even when lithium batteries are blown up of got thick, be careful, it is already damaged! Opening or hurting the lithium battery might cause immediate fire and explosion.[5] --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 23:35, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
It's unlikely this will work. Pretty much all Android phones I've ever owned with removable batteries do not work without the battery. There is no reason an iPhone which does not even have a removable battery is likely to be any different. And it's not impossible the peak power draw of the phone is actually higher than that supplied by the charger even if it's a 2.4A one. Unlike some of many laptops, phones simply aren't generally designed to be used without the battery. Nil Einne (talk) 01:40, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks all. Nil's info seems particularly relevant, that Android phones don't work without batteries. I'd never tried it with any kind of phone so didn't know. So yeah, I'd expect the iphone to be the same way and therefore my scheme is unlikely to work and I guess I won't pursue it. Absent that approach, if I have to get an iphone at all, it will probably be an SE.
Regarding replacing the iphone 5s battery: 1) I'm not worried about the warranty since the phone is presumably out of warranty; 2) I didn't want to replace the battery, but rather, to remove it completely and operate the phone on external power without it; 3) I'm not too worried about replacing the battery either, it's not brain surgery. Yeah there's that Apple info page, but there was also a tag on my mattress that said "do not remove this tag under penalty of law". I cut it off while no one was looking and the police never came after me, so now I take those sorts of warnings with a grain of salt. (talk) 03:37, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Headphone jack vs USB[edit]

The headphone socket on my Toshiba laptop is going. I have to hold the jack in place or I lose some of the audio. Will a headset connected to a USB port give me the equivalent audio quality? I assume buying one of those will be cheaper than getting the socket repaired or replaced. Rojomoke (talk) 22:27, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Short answer: Yup.
Long answer: You can actually drastically increase your audio quality with an external sound card (and keep your favorite headphones). I recently picked up this one for one of my home computers. I do not recommend getting a gaming headset, as the audio quality is utter crap, even with the expensive ones. However, if you're not on the same level of snobbish audiophile/geekiness that I'm at, you may not notice a difference. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:41, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Are you sure it's the socket that's going bad and not the jack on the headphone cord? In my experience the latter is more likely to fail, due to a broken/frayed wire or similar failure. You can check by testing with a different set of headphones. If you have expensive headphones and the jack is bad, you can replace it for about US$5. CodeTalker (talk) 22:47, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Maybe the phone connector (audio) jack needs just to be cleaned or resoldered.[6] Some were assembled in Surface-mount technology in portable devices,[7] but not on desktop mainboards. Some basic knowledge of metallurgy and electronic might be useful. While computer audio jacks close an switch on the back end when a connector is plugged, analog hifi jacks open the line(s) trough and disable the internal microphones(s) or speaker(s). Audio adapters for USB are USB sound cards. Sound cards have an analog and a digital part. For the analog circuit, separate power input pins are on the device. A better filtered operating voltage should be avail for this. Today, the costs of such separate voltage regulators are the differences in cheap and decent sound cards. It still might be possible to achieve something acceptable due USB devices are 5 volts tolerant 3.3 volts devices. Just a low-pass filter for each part of the audio device causes the first huge reduction of noise. An constant voltage delivered from a linear voltage regulator is even better, but not achievable without an boost converter inside an USB device an the boost converter is sill a source of noise. On mainboards the AC'97 an its successor, the Intel High Definition Audio codec devices are still analog/digital converter devices. The bus interface and other logical circuit has been moved into the chipset. --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 23:10, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
I use a Musical Fidelity V90-HPA and it is very flexible - I use it for more than I intended. It is a D/A converter, has a USB input and RCA inputs and outputs. It has a switch to switch between inputs. I have the USB going to the computer, of course. I also have a stereo system next to my desk and I have the RCA inputs and outputs going to it. With this arrangement, I can play either the computer or the stereo through the headphones or play the computer sound through the stereo. And it sounds a lot better than plugging headphones into the computer. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 02:41, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

April 29[edit]

Box-drawing character[edit]

I'm looking that the tables in Box-drawing character to try to get the characters with the alt-codes. If I do alt-2510 I get ╬ when I expect to get ┐. Others give different characters too. What is wrong? Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 01:30, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Not sure why the offset, but that's close to the one you want. You might just experiment with numbers nearby until you find the ones you want. StuRat (talk) 03:11, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Check the character encoding that your viewing software (browser, tty emulator, or whatever) is set to use. (talk) 03:43, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Different Google accounts on Android phone for email vs contacts and calendar[edit]

I have two Android handsets, and two different numbers for them. Can I set up the phones to share the same Google contacts and calendar, but use different Gmail accounts? (talk) 10:35, 29 April 2017 (UTC)


April 25[edit]


How many water molecules are attached in Blue Vitriol and in White Vitriol ?How its number is decided? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Achyut Prashad Paudel (talkcontribs) 09:30, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Metal aquo complex covers some of it, as does Coordination complex. --Jayron32 10:50, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Is there a deeper rail canyon (compare street canyon) in the world than the Chicago El?[edit]

Where in Chicago is the rail canyon the deepest? It's probably in the Loop or one of the els right before the Loop but I don't know where. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:27, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Also, is there less prestige or desire to build, buy or rent on the outer side of a Loop street compared to the other side of the street or do they just not care? I would guess not it's but hey, maybe if you're a billionaire or the most prestigious law firm in the city or something being able to say you're in the Loop matters. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:38, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

The first Liverpool station was at Edge Hill, in a cutting 40 feet (12 m) deep with the boilers and engine sheds cut into the walls of the cutting (they're still there). The line then ran outwards to Manchester, through another deep cutting of 80 feet (24 m) - its depth was four times its original width, making it a rather famous sightseeing destination of this new 'steam age'. Lines extended through tunnels to stations nearer the town centre and docks. When Lime Street station was built this too was tunnelled through the sandstone, but after a landslip this was mostly opened up into more deep cuttings.
A wholly separate line, came into Liverpool from the South West along the river, first as the Garston and Liverpool Railway to Brunswick at the edge of the city, then extended as the Liverpool Central Station Railway through Liverpool St James in a deep cutting (maybe anoother 40'?) alongside the cathedral to a surface station at Liverpool Central, entered through a tunnel. These tunnels and cuttings, along with the Mersey Railway beneath the river, now form the basis of the modern Merseyrail underground/overground system.
Further lines, the Waterloo Goods branch and the Canada Dock Branch, came from Edge Hill to the northern docks, again through tunnels and cuttings although these were less deep than the others. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:28, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
  • I havent found an exact measurement, but at 168th Street (New York City Subway) one takes an elevator to transfer between the A line and the 1 line. I have seen a figure of 15 storeys and recall that the 1 line is 200ft below the surface. I am not sure if this answers your question, but it is surely deeper than 24 meters. μηδείς (talk) 17:19, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
The Gotthard Base Tunnel is 1.5 miles below the surface. That's the world record. It'd be 115°F at that depth if the HVAC broke. I had in mind canyons of buildings like CTA Night.jpg but rock canyons are also welcome. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:34, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Hong Kong trams
In terms of natural canyons, the Royal Gorge Railroad at 1,250 ft (380 m) deep and not much wider than a city street probably wins. For artificial canyons, the buildings around Docklands Light Railway at Canary Wharf in London possibly equal those on the Loop (although the canyon formed isn't nearly as long), and Tokyo's Yamanote Line runs at surface level through some very built up areas. Smurrayinchester 07:19, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
(Oh, and Hong Kong Tramways are also probably worth a look - they run along Des Voeux Road, one of the most densely built-up parts of Hong Kong). Smurrayinchester 07:35, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Clinton station (CTA Blue Line) and an adjacent tunnel are the lowest points of the Chicago "L" at a depth of 66ft according to this article. --Modocc (talk) 11:50, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

April 26[edit]

Intermodal container[edit]

For ocean shipping of Intermodal containers, does the shipping cost depend on the weight of the filled container or not? ECS LIVA Z (talk) 00:51, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

It appears not. A couple of sites that provide information on international container shipping do not mention weight as part of the cost [8][9], and two sites I found to get shipping rates don't include "weight" as a line to fill in, although one will have such a line if you selecting anything but a shipping container as your package [10][11]. However, I do notice that some sites give a fixed weight to every size container. I wonder if shipping companies would refuse to take something over that weight. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:33, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Rather old OP, I'm afraid, but back in the mid-1980's I was involved in ordering periodical shipments of manufactured items from my employers' factory in South Africa to their warehouse in Hampshire, UK. The quantity of goods could vary significantly from shipment to shipment, and were always sent in a standard shipping container, whose cost of delivery was the same regardless of how full it was. {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 14:25, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
In my experience about a decade ago, there was no weight limit on the container for the ship-bound portion of the transit. However, unless you have a deep-sea dock in your backyard, something else is going to be required to get the container to your DC. I do not know about the rail portion, but trucking companies will have upper limits to what they're legally allowed to haul and probably also limits on what they'll haul without extra charge. Matt Deres (talk) 01:04, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Installing a new thermostat on a 240V household heater[edit]

I have an old baseboard heater in a bedroom. It has no markings or ratings on it as far as I can tell, nothing written inside the unscrewable panels on each end. All I know is it's on the 240V household power (3 live wires plus a ground wire) and a 20-amp circuit breaker. I live in the United States.

When the heater is on, my clamp meter shows 6.2 amps on each of the three live wires going into the heater. If I understand the 3-phase AC article correctly, the total current going through the heater isn't 18.6 amps (3 × 6.2), but would actually be 6.2 amps.

I just bought a new programmable thermostat (heater only, no cooling) rated for a maximum load of 14.6 amps at 240V, which is a good margin for the heater.

So I want to know, before I install this thermostat, is my assumption correct that this heater is actually drawing 6.2 amps and is a safe load for the thermostat?

It's challenging to find a programmable heater-only thermostat rated for 20 amps at a decent price ($50-ish). ~Anachronist (talk) 05:31, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

You almost certainly do not have three-phase service. If you're in the U.S., you probably have split-phase. Do not mess around with electricity if you don't know what you're doing. Call a HVAC servicer. -- (talk) 06:10, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I've done a lot of work around the house with the single phase wiring. Even helped rewire the whole kitchen during a remodel and the city building inspector approved it. Whether the 240V is 3-phase or split-phase, the question still stands regarding the current I measured versus the load rating on the thermostat. ~Anachronist (talk) 06:23, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
The fact that you're asking the question about the current indicates that you don't know what you're doing and shouldn't be installing the thermostat. Seek expert advice from a qualified electrician. Any wiring mistake that you make that results in a fire could have serious consequences for your household and contents insurance policy. Akld guy (talk) 08:07, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Is it on a 2-pole or 3-pole circuit-breaker? DMacks (talk) 12:34, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
If you are not skilled in electrical testing and wiring, there is too high a likelihood of injury or property damage to be messing with 240 volt wiring. Installing an inappropriate thermostat would be bad, if you wound up switching a neutral, for instance. Check with an electrician. Also, what kind of electrical device has NO NAMEPLATE? If I were working on the heater, I would have checked the voltage from each of the "live wires" to ground and to each other. Then I would know if there were two wires each with 120 volts to ground and with 240 volts between them, as is commonly seen in US household wiring, and a neutral wire with only a small or no voltage to ground, and 120 volts to it from each of the other two "live wires." If the wires are wye or delta connected, or high-leg delta, other voltage patterns would be seen. Edison 16:13, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
@DMacks: normal 2-pole 20 amp breaker. It's actually a pair of 20-amp breakers with the toggles connected together, so that both will always flip at the same time. They're on a circuit dedicated to two baseboard heaters, one in each bedroom.
Two poles means it's two hots (presumably split-phase at 180°, each 120V for 240V total, as Edison says) and the third current-carrying conductor is neutral. "Three-phase" (three hots at 120°) would require three poles of circuit-breaker. DMacks (talk) 19:09, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
@Akld guy: I've installed thermostats before, we have other baseboard thermostats in the house but those thermostats are mechanical ones rated at 22 amps. Electricians check my work — and I may call one anyway in this case. The fact that I'm asking a question doesn't indicate I don't know what I'm doing, it indicates that I am reluctant to cut off the heater wires to measure the voltage (they aren't connected with screw-off caps, but the crimp kind). But I did manage to measure the voltages by shoving the probe down into the back of the caps, see below. The clamp meter was an easy non-contact way to compare the current in the heater with the current rating of the breaker and the thermostat. If I were replacing the mechanical thermostat with a new 22 amp one, there would be no need to ask questions. But I want a digital programmable one in one particular room, and those don't seem to be available higher than about 15 amps. What gave me pause is that the rating on the thermostat is less than the circuit breaker (I can replace the circuit breaker with a 15 amp one if needed).
@Edison: Right, there is NO NAMEPLATE. Maybe if I pulled it off the wall (I see very large nails fastening them at the back, so I might damage the heater pulling it off) there might be a plate on the back. These baseboard heaters here are nearly 50 years old. So I have to resort to measurements to figure out its specs.
The voltages between the wires are: white-red: 210V; white-black: 8V; red-black: 12V; ground-red: 120V, ground-black and ground-white: 1V. Those low voltages fluctuated as the heater warmed up. But seeing that gave me the idea to put the clamp meter around the red and black wires together, and it read 12.5A or 0A, depending on the relative direction each wire passed through the clamp loop. That indicates that the red and black are in phase, and the heater is likely drawing 12.5A. Is that a reasonable deduction? If so, I'm reluctant to put a 15A thermostat on this thing; it's a bit too close for comfort. ~Anachronist (talk) 19:02, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Your unit is a 220 VAC 6.2 Amp resistive heater. Red and black are on the opposite sides of your single-phase (i.e., split-phase) service. This is just like any other big 220VAC appliance. If you have a thermostat that can handle 220 VAC at 6.2 Amp, you can in theory use it as a switch in either the red wire or the black wire, but I think this is a really bad idea, unless you are sure that the unit is designed to work that way. If you are replacing an existing thermostat, how is it wired? Does it interrupt just red, or just black, or is it DPST and interrupts both? How is your digital thermostat powered? If it expects 120 VAC and is designed to interrupt 120VAC, it is likely to to fail in the 220VAC system even if its internal relay can handle 6.2 A. If it were me I'd replace the entire unit. If this is infeasible, I would use a DPST 20A relay and use a 24 VAC thermostat to actuate the relay. I'd also think twice before accepting advice from random people on the Internet. -Arch dude (talk) 05:12, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
    @Arch dude: Thank you. I'm not following advice, just gathering information. In this case, the existing thermostat (a mechanical 22 amp thing similar to this) has been failing to keep the room at a constant temperature anymore; the room alternates between too hot and too cold, so I want to replace it, preferably with a digital programmable one. The one I bought is a 240V thermostat (this one) rated at about 15 amps, can be used in either a 2- or 4-wire installation. Thanks for confirming my heater is 6.2 amps, but still, I found myself uncomfortable with putting a 15 amp device on a 20 amp circuit (I don't want the thermostat to be the weakest point in the circuit), so I returned it to Home Depot today. I wonder why the only 22-amp heater thermostats I can find are mechanical? ~Anachronist (talk) 06:25, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Cargo spacecraft visiting the ISS[edit]

Why do cargo spacecraft other than the Progress (i.e. the Dragon, Cygnus, H-II Transfer Vehicle, etc.) require the use of the Canadarm instead of using automated docking like the Progress? Given that the Progress, and previously the ATV, had automated docking capabilities, why weren't these just used for the other cargo spacecraft? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 07:37, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

International Space Station#Docking discusses the advantages and disadvantages of automatic vs. manual docking. --Jayron32 10:51, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • This is because they use different ports. Progress and ATV use(d) the Russian SSVP docking system, the rest use the American Common Berthing Mechanism. The latter is a bigger hatch, easier for supplies, but is not suited for automated docking, due to different acceleration requirements at contact. Nitpick, when using Canadarm to place these VVs on a CMB, the term is berthing (as the name suggests), they don't dock. Fgf10 (talk) 07:54, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Stowaway on a trip to space[edit]

The International Space Station is serviced by a variety of unmanned cargo drops. Supposing that someone could sneak onto one of those cargo flights without being noticed, would such a flight be survivable? Are the cargo modules pressurized, kept at a reasonable temperature, etc.? And would the additional weight be sufficiently within the safety margins that the rocket could reach its destination without running out of fuel (assuming no cargo was removed)? Dragons flight (talk) 14:20, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Could a human survive? Sure, if you don't care about comfort, safety, or permanent health harm, and accepted very tiny margins of confidence. For example, Progress is not functionally very different from Soyuz, a manned Soviet spacecraft. In principle, they are the same vehicle, but engineered to different standards of safety, comfort, and confidence.
Would you be comfortable berthing in a vehicle that is essentially a fifty-year-old Soviet design, only built for carrying cargo with tolerances that are relaxed below the standards originally set for cosmonaut safety and comfort?
So if the question really is whether the journey might be livable, I think we can say yes. This obviously glosses over some of the practical difficulties. How would the stow-away crew get in? How long would they have to hide inside the module before the launch? How much kit could they bring with them - food, water - among other biological needs? Could they bring a spaceflight-safe seat or harness? Do they care about comfort and safety in even the slightest fashion? What rate of probable mortality or morbidity would be acceptable?
Nimur (talk) 16:21, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Here is a short-course, from 2015, whose lecture notes are published on NTRS: ISS Payload Thermal Environments, taught originally by a team from NASA and Boeing to help train engineers who intend to deliver cargo payloads to ISS.
As always, if you learn to search NTRS, you'll find almost everything you need to know, in full-form.
Nimur (talk) 16:24, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Two obvious questions would be temperatures and also CO2 buildup. Although the payloads (well, half of them) are pressurised with a breathable atmosphere, this doesn't include the life support needed for a payload that's also breathing. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:57, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Another issue might be the accelleration of the rocket, which is usually kept down to an human sustainable level - not the most efficient way to put a mass into orbit with a rocket. Also these cargovessels have no heat shield. So anything goes wrong up there - you are toast. Also they would have to provide one extra seat for you to come back, in a vessel with an heat shield.
Anyway, if you think they let you sneak near one of these or even sneak something or someone in, you have probably seen to many James Bond or Jackie Chan-Movies. --Kharon (talk) 01:21, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
@Kharon: James Bond might only do that in a fictional scenario, but if Megan Rice were to try I would put money on her to win. The more sure everyone is that a place must have great security, the more vulnerable it is to people who don't believe in security. Wnt (talk) 00:25, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Well, the Dragon capsule made by SpaceX certainly has a heat shield and full environmental systems on board. It has been used to take live animals to the ISS. The weight difference that one person would make can certainly be negated by the launch vehicle. I think it would be possible, from what I know of the Dragon capsule. The real question would be whether there was space that a human could fit in, as they are packed pretty tightly with supplies, and if the CO2 build-up was being controlled by the atmospheric system. The maximum journey time would be three or four days, so you would need to have enough water with you to survive that time. This is assuming the mission contained live animals. I don't know if they keep the environment sustained to the same levels when it is a mission that is not taking live animals to the ISS. Whatever the circumstances, I don't think it would be very comfortable, and I highly doubt that SpaceX would not notice a person on board. Zzubnik (talk) 03:26, 27 April 2017 (UTC)


How does this[12] work?

I thought that buoyancy only depended on 1. the object's weight and 2. the amount of fluid the object displaces. My (admittedly poor) understand is that how that weight is distributed within the object has nothing to do with the buoyancy force. ECS LIVA Z (talk) 20:43, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Is Buoyancy#Stability helpful? In non-uniform systems, mass distribution can affect the practical implications of buoyancy even if the magnitude of buoyancy force isn't affected by such things. — Lomn 20:54, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
The center of gravity doesn't change in this case though. The hourglass stays rotationally symmetrical throughout the video so its center of gravity stays in the center. ECS LIVA Z (talk) 22:46, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I suspect the video is fake. The hourglass seems to be staying put on the bottom after the tube is flipped over, then there's an obvious edit in the video, after which it starts to rise. They probably just subbed in a lighter hourglass in a tube and resumed filming. StuRat (talk) 21:18, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
The floating hourglass paradox is a well known physics puzzle. You can buy these things in the right kind of novelty stores, and they behave exactly like this. There would be no point to faking the video. ApLundell (talk) 14:53, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
  • I would expect that there is the usual buoyancy on the hourglass within the tube, but if that's quite close fitting then viscosity through the narrow gap between glass and tube will limit the speed it can float upwards at. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:44, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
This doesn't seem impossible, but I don't know if it is genuine. The key would be to have a flexible membrane at the bottom of the hourglass. As the sand in the hourglass lands on the membrane, it may reach a point where its weight can effectively counter the pressure of the liquid and push the membrane outward (or reduce the degree to which it bulges inward). This would increase the volume of the hourglass and make it buoyant. The classic demonstration of this type is the Cartesian diver, but in that case an external source delivers the pressure. Wnt (talk) 22:11, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I suspect this is just a one-element version of the Galileo thermometer. The obvious cut may conceal an interval while the overall apparatus (or the water) is warmed so that the float rises, and the hourglass sand inside the latter is a deliberate red herring. {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 05:20, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
This is a valid explanation. I was already somewhat suspicious that the liquid was not water (something about the refraction... it's hard to say); a liquid other than water likely has a much lower heat capacity or may change volume to a greater degree. The liquid would need to start off at an elevated temperature, making it less dense, and the hourglass would rise as it cooled off. My gut feeling is that the obvious cut here does not conceal chicanery, if only because that would make the riddle too easy. ;) Wnt (talk) 12:23, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
The floating hourglass puzzle can be immediately turned upside down to perform again after it has performed.
And you can make it yourself with a tube, some ordinary water, and an hourglass (Or rather, an egg timer. An actual hour glass would be unwieldy for this kind of demonstration.). You may need to add weight to the hourglass. It should be buoyant, but not very buoyant. ApLundell (talk) 14:58, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
@ApLundell: What's your source for that? I think my solution with the membrane could meet this specification, assuming there are flexible membranes on both the top and the bottom of the hourglass. Wnt (talk) 02:40, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm sure there are lots of ways it could be gimmicked, but you don't need to. The physics puzzle famously works with an ordinary hourglass.
It was apparently first introduced by Martin Gardner in a 1966 article in Scientific American, but I don't have the issue so I can't confirm. It was very popular, zillions of people wrote in about it. He included it in his book Mathematical Carnival.
There's no shortage of examples of this device. (Search for "Floating Hourglass" or "Rising Hourglass") Here's a video of one constructed with a wider tube, so the explanation of the trick is more obvious [13].
ApLundell (talk) 04:03, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
@ApLundell: I'll grant that looks very similar .... but there's a key difference. The hourglass in that video does not sink on its own! It simply stays in place at first when the whole tube is flipped. So no matter what it looks like, I don't think it works the same way at all. Wnt (talk) 09:45, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
@Wnt: I don't know what to tell you except to encourage you to rewatch the video that started this thread. In it, the video begins with the hourglass floating at the top of the tube until a hand manually rotates the entire assembly. Exactly as in the classic rising hourglass demonstration.
By the way, The tubes can be made with an hourglass of positive or negative buoyancy. (That is, once the static friction is released, they will either sink of rise.) Here's a video where there's one of each.[14] One that performs like the classic rising hourglass as seen in the video that started this thread, and one exactly opposite. In either case, the fascinating part is that the hourglass refuses to move until its center of gravity has lowered a bit. ApLundell (talk) 13:59, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Wow... I totally misremembered what I'd seen happen. OK, so none of my fancy hocus-pocus is actually needed. Although the membrane thing actually *would* help anyway (the hourglass would float once the sand was down against the membrane, and refloat later) this is indeed just as you said, a simple matter of friction from an unstable center of gravity. Wnt (talk) 01:01, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
It is possible that when the sand is at the top of the hourglass, it's exerting a slight pressure on the air in the lower chamber, compressing it slightly, and as the air flows to the top of the hourglass it decompresses. But this would work only if the volume of the hourglass somehow changed with this difference in pressure, maybe using a membrane as Wnt suggests above. Another explanation: Notice that you never see the hourglass rising with the rounded end on the bottom? The flat end is starting out at the bottom. So that flat end may be 'stuck' momentarily to the end of the cylinder, and its own buoyancy pulls it up.... in which case the sand is just misdirection. ~Anachronist (talk) 06:51, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
The centre of mass (CM) of the hourglass stays on the axis of symmetry, but it does move down. Just after the thing is inverted, the CM is in the upper half, but when some of the sand has fallen, the CM moves to the lower half. The centre of buoyancy (CB) always remains at the exact centre of the hourglass. When the CM is above the CB, the hourglass is unstable and tries to rotate, thereby wedging itself against the walls of the tube, so that friction can overcome the force of buoyancy. When the CM gets below the CB, the hourglass is stable and gets free of the walls.
There is an additional effect, which I didn't completely calculate here. Because the CM of the hourglass not only moves, but even accelerates, the effective weight of a running hourglass is variable and different from the weight of the same hourglass when all sand is stationary at the bottom. It may depend a bit on the exact shape of the hourglass. If you wish to calculate, there are four components: the mass of the sand in the upper half, which is a cone (or maybe not exactly a cone) of shrinking mass, accelerating down; the mass of the sand in the lower half, which is a cone of increasing mass, accelerating down; the sand currently falling, which is in free fall and therefore does not contribute to the weight of the hourglass; and the sand hitting the lower pile, which rapidly accelerates up, slightly overcompensating for the sand in free fall, because the length of the free fall changes. PiusImpavidus (talk) 11:04, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
  • The standard answer to this puzzle is the static friction caused by the top-heavy hourglass trying to rotate, and therefore pressing firmly against the side of the tube [15].
ApLundell (talk) 14:53, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

CO2 nose tingling[edit]

While drinking Pepsi from the bottle, the carbon dioxide I inhaled had a tingling effect on my nostrils. Why is that? I thought tingling only occurs in dissolved form. (talk) 20:51, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I notice little bits of soda or champagne splashing out the glass as bubbles near the surface burst. I suspect that some of these land in your nose. StuRat (talk) 21:51, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
@StuRat: you can get the tingling effect even when the bottle is away from your mouth. I have always had two tiny holes in the hard palate behind the upper two front teeth; linking the mouth to the nasal cavity (they're mostly blocked but on some days I can suck air through them). I think carbonated water can go up these holes, still bubbling, and give the nose a tingling sensation. ~Anachronist (talk) 07:04, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
If carbon dioxide dissolves in water, some of it gets converted to carbonic acid. Your respiratory tract is moist, so this happens. This is the same mechanism by which things like chlorine gas have their deadly effects: the molecules dissolve into the secretions lining your eyes and respiratory tract, forming acids, which then attack the tissue. -- (talk) 21:58, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

AC Transformer Ratings[edit]

My power supply (built from a kit) says that it needs a 2x9VAC transformer to output 5V DC: is this the same as 18 VA? Can I use an 18 V transformer that outputs 1 A? I don't understand why they list the specifications as 2x9 instead of 18, when all the transformers I find for sale just say 18. OldTimeNESter (talk) 23:19, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Your kit should have some kind of circuit diagram to show how things connect I suspect it needs more than two connections to the power supply, and that you have to connect them correctly, not at random. Your circuit may need a centre tap, where the two 9V windings are connected in series. Some transformers can also be connected in parallel (in phase) to double the current output. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:50, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
No, 2x9VAC is not the same as 18 VA. The reason why the kit manufacturer has specified a transformer with two secondary windings of 9V each depends on several factors, and it's impossible to say why they have done so without seeing the circuit design. It may help to understand that when AC is rectified in a four-diode diode bridge, the DC voltage that results is very close to 1.4 times the AC voltage supplied by the secondary. Similarly, when using a two-diode full-wave rectifier circuit with center-tapped transformer, the DC voltage that results is very close to 1.4 times the AC voltage supplied by half of the transformer secondary. Here are some configurations, from which we can make some deductions:
  • 1. Two 9V windings in series (18VAC) applied to a diode bridge result in 25.2 VDC, far more than required.
  • 2. Two 9V windings connected in series (forming a common center tap) to a half-wave rectifier result in 12.6 VDC, about right for deriving 5VDC via a regulator device.
  • 3. Two 9V windings in parallel (in phase!!!) connected to a diode bridge result in 12.6 VDC, about right for deriving 5VDC via a regulator device, and able to deliver nearly twice the current as that of configuration 2.
We can almost certainly discount configuration 1, leaving either of the other two options. Therefore your 18 V transformer is almost certainly not suitable. It will definitely not be suitable if the kit uses option 2's half wave rectifier, unless your transformer has a center tap (you didn't mention one). The kit should describe how to connect the two 9VAC windings, from which you could deduce what type of rectifier is employed. Or you could just count the diodes. Akld guy (talk) 06:54, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Check whether the 2-diode circuit [16] described at Rectifier#Full-wave rectification (B2U) is used in your power supply. The transformer in this circuit can be described as having an 18 V AC center-tapped output, which is the same as 2 x 9 V AC outputs connected in series. Please do not write "18 VA" unless you really mean "18 Volt-ampere". The 2-diode circuit can be replaced by the 4-diode circuit also shown at Rectifier#Full-wave rectification (B2U) which would allow a simpler transformer with 9 V AC output. Blooteuth (talk) 13:44, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
The circuit diagram has 4 diodes: it shows the transformer having four inputs from mains, labelled from left to right as Va, 0, 0, and Vb. The two "0" inputs are tied to ground, and each of the Va,Vb connects to two of the diodes. Both pairs of diodes are wired in parallel. I don't think it's a center tap, since the center output from the transformer is tied to ground. I actually haven't bought a transformer yet: I was just confused because I didn't see any of the listed at Jameco as 2x9, just 18. OldTimeNESter (talk) 14:03, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
That's a really confusing description, and I'm struggling to make sense of it. Akld guy (talk) 01:26, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

April 27[edit]

Portion control, food rationing, and economics[edit]

When it comes to portion control, so many sources suggest "using a smaller plate" or "using portion control containers" or "sharing the food with someone else" or "communal eating". However, I have found no one who suggests just buying expensive food intentionally while keeping the budget the same. What I mean is, the original food budget may be $50 a week per person. In order to make smaller portion sizes, that person may (1) reduce the food budget to $25 a week per person OR (2) buy expensive food (especially organic-brand food). Either way, the quantity of food is supposed to be reduced, because less money is used to buy food OR the same amount of money is used to buy expensive food; and certain low-nutrient foods (such as potato chips, soda, candy) are banned from the shopping list. So anyway, does economics-based food rationing work? Is there any research examining the effects of intentional food budget reduction OR the effects of swapping to expensive food? (talk) 12:51, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

For most people, staying on a budget is difficult enough, but when pitted against the desire for food, it doesn't stand a chance. Not having enough food at home might lead to hitting the local burger joint, and blowing both the diet and budget at once. Also, many low cost foods, like potatoes, aren't a particularly good choice for losing weight. A variation on your idea I have heard of is the blackmail diet. Here you give a neutral party some of your money, with the idea that they will only give it back if you reach some goal, like a certain weight. If you fail, the money instead goes to some cause you hate. If you hate dogs, for example, it all goes to them.
You might also look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which shows that if a physiology need (in this case hunger) is not met, we would not think of any of the higher needs, like saving money for the future, until we satisfy the more basic need. StuRat (talk) 14:44, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
One of the things to note is that, counterintuitively, in developed countries, obesity is generally correlated with lower income, see here "In contrast to international trends, people in America who live in the most poverty-dense counties are those most prone to obesity" This is different than in lesser developed countries, where poor people are more likely to be underfed. That's because of the way that food economics works in the U.S. Convenience foods tend to be more economical because they have a longer shelf life and are easier to prepare (less time intensive), so in terms of long-term economics, poorer people in countries like the U.S. find it actually cheaper to subsist on energy-dense, nutrient-scarce foods because those are available, keep a long time, and are easier to prepare. For many of the same reasons, fresh foods may not even be readily available in poor regions of the U.S. (see Food desert); there's low demand, stores don't stock them as much, etc. In more affluent areas, people have time to shop more frequently, can afford higher wastage, and can spend more time preparing healthier meals. This fits well with Stu's reference to Maslow; hungry people don't have much time to worry about their figure or long term health prospects. --Jayron32 17:36, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
So, obesity-shaming in the United States is really a disguised version of poverty-shaming, and any discussion about poverty in the USA is bound to include class and race. And I've read in the recent news that Donald Trump has made huge tax cuts... for the rich. Awesome. Now, the rich is just going to get richer, and the poor is going to get poorer. Well, let's just hope that the people have some goodness and donate more money to charity and low-income gardens. With a weaker government and more powerful rich people, the only way to help the poor is to get the middle class to side with them.
I think if you're hungry, then you are very likely to think of the short-term costs. $1.00 for a pack of Ramen noodles may seem economical at the Dollar Tree, but just a few steps away, there are frozen vegetables and fruits. Though, you would have to account for cooking. So, you can look at foods that don't require cooking - like canned produce, even though they may be very soggy and bland. (talk) 17:56, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
You've got really expensive ramen. I can generally find them for anywhere from 15 cents per pack to 33 cents depending on sales and the like... --Jayron32 10:51, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
I believe he meant a multi-pack, probably with 6 or 12 individual packages. StuRat (talk) 15:02, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Trump proposed massive tax cuts for the rich, but that doesn't mean they will pass Congress. Many mainstream Republicans will oppose it because the deficit would skyrocket, and pretty much all Democrats will oppose it. As for Dollar Tree, I get 4 ounce frozen salmon fillets there, and 12 grain bread, so you can find healthy food even there. StuRat (talk) 04:04, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Not an answer, but: the tradition of Lent seems of some relevance to this question. We have a notion of medieval times as being harsh, yet how did religious people of the era come up with a tradition of intentionally doing without food then? I would love to see something on the functional aspects of Lent traditions - do they combat obesity, and if so how? Was meat much more expensive relative to other foods in former times (as reflected by subsequent positions in the U.S. Catholic churches)? Did it make sense to avoid slaughtering animals at that time of the year, etc.? Wnt (talk) 00:35, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
People say that the Mediterranean diet is "healthy". Coincidentally, the Mediterranean countries are Catholic or Orthodox. Both religions do intermittent fasting. This video says that the rich did not eat fruits and vegetables, because they thought food from the ground was for the poor. Apparently, spices were not "from the ground". (talk) 01:06, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

How are hard jelly sweets made?[edit]

How do Rowntree's Fruit Pastilles achieve their hard jelly consistency? Do they just use more gelatin than others or is there some other ingredient that gives the jelly a hard chewy consistency? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nocontrolgorge (talkcontribs) 14:07, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Not sure specifically on that brand, but generally candy hardness is determined by how long the candy is cooked. Candy making#Sugar stages covers the various stages of sugar hardness which is mostly based on the temperature you remove the cooked mixture from the heat at and the sugar concentration in the final mix. Making candy of any kind is basically sugar + water + flavors; to get a specific consistency you heat the mixture to a certain temperature, then cool it. The specific temperature it reaches is based on a colligative property called boiling point elevation. --Jayron32 14:41, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
And note that cooking it longer makes it harder by reducing the water content. StuRat (talk) 14:54, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Can people still lose weight eating junk food?[edit]

Just a quick question; if someones basal metabolic rate is 1,600 calories a day can they still lose weight if they eat junk food like pizza and chocolate as long as it totals less than 1,600 calories a day? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nocontrolgorge (talkcontribs) 14:08, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

It's possible. However:
1) It's quite unlikely they will feel full after that small amount of junk food, so actually do so is extremely difficult. It's quite easy to get 1600 calories from junk food in one meal, so that means no eating the rest of the day. See satiety.
2) They will still damage their health with unhealthy things (excessive trans fats, saturated fat, LDL cholesterol, sugar and sodium) and a lack of healthy nutrients (dietary fiber, HDL cholesterol, protein, vitamins, minerals, phytochemicals, antioxidants, etc.).
3) Their body may enter starvation mode due to a lack of healthy nutrients, and the basal metabolic rate may subsequently drop. Reducing the amount of junk food further may then only push them deeper into starvation mode, in a vicious cycle, leading to serious malnutrition.
4) Your 2 examples, pizza and chocolate, are two things that can be part of a healthy diet, provided it's a veggie pizza (with big chunks of veggies, not token diced bits), and dark chocolate, like 85%, and you don't have too much of either. Some other junk food, like soda, is unredeemable, as even using artificial sweeteners doesn't make it healthy. StuRat (talk) 14:36, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Weight loss has a rather checkered reputation, but "starvation mode" isn't entirely a bad thing. Bear in mind that for many obese people, "starvation mode" doesn't literally mean an emergency breakdown of vital proteins, but simply a decrease in insulin resistance! If a diet fails at a weight loss goal but improves blood sugar levels, that is still a useful thing. Wnt (talk) 00:40, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Not only they can, but they will; the first law of thermodynamics is hard to beat, and energy can come only from "burning" the solid body mass with atmospheric oxygen and releasing it as CO2, losing one carbon atom in the process and its associated weight. (Unless that "someone" is capable of photosynthesis or other means of energy storage that do not involve the enthalpy of the food they eat, or you cheat with a technicality.)
Obviously, this does not imply anything about whether such a diet can be kept to from a mental point of view, and anyways human health is not summarized by one variable of weight, as hinted to by the above answer. TigraanClick here to contact me 14:35, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
  • The definition of junk food is generally food that is low in nutrient density. Nutrient density is simply the ratio of micronutrients to food energy. This has nothing to do with whether or not you lose weight; weight loss is mostly a matter of using more energy than you get from your food. If you use more energy than your food provides, you lose weight. Junk food causes other health problems noted above due to the lack of necessary dietary nutrients, but strictly speaking if your manage your caloric intake, you can lose weight on a junk-food only diet. The documentary Fat Head, the film maker lost weight on an all-McDonalds diet for example. --Jayron32 14:48, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

The asteriod impact that wiped out the dinosaurs[edit]

This has been bothering me about the aftermath of the impact. Given the global-scale devastation and blackout conditions that persisted for years afterward, how was it possible for absolutely any living thing at all to actually survive the disaster? Just exactly how dark and how cold did the earth actually become, and how long did it last? If it really literally was as bad as is often shown on tv, there is simply no way that anything dependent on photosynthesis could have survived at all - and consequently also nothing higher up the food chain. It simply could logically not have been really as bad as the "popular" media portray it. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 18:40, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I have never seen any popular media portrayal of the years following the impact, so it would help if you pointed us to some of the ones you're thinking of. HenryFlower 19:13, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
[Edit Conflict] It depends (mostly) on how long (and cold and dark) the popular media are portraying it – I don't know myself because I avoid portrayals that are likely to be grossly inaccurate. Given that some life did survive, by definition the actual conditions must have permitted it, so we need to assess the conditions against that known fact. Bear in mind that plant seeds can survive for years before germinating when the right conditions return, and larger woody plants can also survive, alive but not growing, for lengthy periods. The terrestrial animals such as mammals and avian dinosaurs (aka "birds") that did survive were all small (I've read "cat-sized or smaller"), and may have subsisted mainly on carrion and plant seeds. ("Roast chestnuts. anyone?" "No, pass me some of the T. rex jerky.") Even most members of most surviving species would have died, but it only takes a few surviving pairs (or individual plants), to make it through and start repopulating (and evolving into all those suddenly vacated niches). Its harder to know what was going on in the oceans, but obviously something was. I presume you've already read Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event and any relevant links and references. {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 19:21, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
This Wikipedia article [17] says: "Omnivores, insectivores and carrion-eaters survived the extinction event, perhaps because of the increased availability of their food sources. No purely herbivorous or carnivorous mammals seem to have survived. Rather, the surviving mammals and birds fed on insects, worms, and snails, which in turn fed on dead plant and animal matter. Scientists hypothesize that these organisms survived the collapse of plant-based food chains because they fed on detritus (non-living organic material)" --AboutFace 22 (talk) 22:36, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Another factor is torpor (hibernation, estivation etc.) I looked for confirmation and found things like this. A fun thing I have in mind is that a human ship emerging from suspended animation is perhaps likely to really freak the natives of some other planet, where life didn't pass through this bottleneck and the emerging humans seem like mythical undead... Wnt (talk) 00:03, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Our article on the Chicxulub crater mentions the Earth is estimated to have been shrouded in darkness for "several years, possibly a decade". Since many seeds can persist for decades, and some even over a century, while staying viable, it's totally plausible that some species survived the event. Now, it would certainly be devastating, and our article on the extinction event mentions that the majority of terrestrial plant species went extinct around this time. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:11, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

April 28[edit]

Girls having more moles on arms[edit]

This is a question I'm wandering about. Do you think on average girls have more moles on their arms than on guy's arms, focussing on teens and twenties? When wearing short sleeve shirts with arms exposed, I know girls tend to show more moles on their arms because girls tend to wear shorter sleeves than that of guys' as well as wearing sleeveless shirts more frequently. Asking a side question: do you think girls have greater average number of moles on their right arm than on the left; I can judge that based on the internet pictures I've seen. PlanetStar 02:18, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

@PlanetStar: Do you perhaps mean freckles, rather than moles? I ask this because your question suggests to me a relatively large number. Moles (nevus or melanocytic nevus) are normally small in number, as far as I'm aware. Due to the potential for malignancy, a large number of moles would likely be of significant medical concern. As for numbers relative to gender, age, demographics, etc — I don't know. Murph9000 (talk) 02:47, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
No I mean moles. Moles are usually benign and are not usually of medical concern. But if moles suddenly appearing and are rapidly changing would be a concern. Moles are part of development. See a picture of moles on teenage girl's arm here. PlanetStar 04:43, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
FWIW (not much), I'm a guy, and I have a similar density of moles on my arms/body. I think any casual personal observations are likely to be subject to confirmation bias, so we really need scientific sources to confirm or deny the hypothesis. This 1985 paper found in their survey (in New Zealand) no sexual differentiation in overall numbers, but that women have more on the arms, face and neck, while men have more on the back. From glances at other sources, there seems to be some correlation between mole development and sun exposure (though some moles are congenital) so this might reflect clothing and lifestyle habits in New Zealand (which might not apply elsewhere). {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 05:15, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
remember also in New Zealand in the period before 1985, so it might not even apply in NZ any more. Nil Einne (talk) 06:51, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Wind rose[edit]

Just for fun, I decided to look up the Wind rose for Portland, OR. But I got wildly different result from different[18] sites[19]. Which one is more correct? ECS LIVA Z (talk) 10:08, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Are you sure they are in the same location in Portland? --Jayron32 10:38, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Here's current data for KPDX (Portland International Airport): KPDX. At the top of that page is a link to "past weather..." including Frequency of Wind DIRECTION, based on Time of Day. These data are compiled by the National Weather Service, and all the raw records are available at no cost.
A lot of internet websites will try to commercially package and re-sell these free government services, but you can always go directly to or to browse for what you seek, directly from its source.
If you put that data into a wind rose (for example, using your favorite spreadsheet charting and plotting tool), you can see that there are many options for plotting the result - do you want to average all winds or only winds during specific hours (e.g. only during daytime)? Do you want to consider all months, or produce a wind rose for a specific month? ... and so on. So, you can imagine that a few variations on the final chart may occur, depending on the kind of analysis you care to conduct.
Looking at prevailing wind is not only fun, it's useful: for example, here's Planning and Design of Airports, which has a whole chapter on wind speed and direction as they apply to the ... planning and design of airports.
Nimur (talk) 19:24, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
The first site listed by the OP says that it uses observations, while the second site listed by the OP uses fairly coarse-resolution (30 km) model output (look at "General information" near the bottom of the page). Model output will always differ from observations. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:41, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Is "queen ant" or "queen bee" accurate or anthropomorphizing bees and ants?[edit]

The term "queen" sounds like a lofty title. Why not just call these queens "baby producers"? (talk) 11:59, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Because we use the word "queen". Language is neither logical nor precise, nor is the language use of millions of people subject to the momentary whims of someone such as yourself. The word has been "queen" has been used in this context for a long time, in English since 1807. You aren't going to change it because you don't like it. --Jayron32 12:13, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Doesn't every bee or ant in the respective colonies serve the queen bee or ant? If so, the term "queen" seems totally logical. "Baby producers" seems inadequate. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:24, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
That's assuming a one-way function. You can also assume the reverse: that the "queen" is serving the workers and replenishing the population, but not directly telling them what to do. (talk) 12:32, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
That's true of proper royalty too. I mean, they theoretically serve a purpose that benefits the citizens of their domain. ApLundell (talk) 14:14, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
User:Baseball Bugs. It's complicated. Bumblebees are basically beaten into submission by the queen, and if she stops beating them for whatever reason, the strongest daughter will become fertile, start laying eggs, and start beating her sisters. Sometimes, in transition, there are multiple proto-queens, all fighting amongst themselves. Unlike human queendoms, ant colonies of many species have multiple fertile queens. Sometimes colonies established by multiple fertile queens. See Ant_colony#Organizational_terminology for some of the different ways they do it. Finally, though there are no true solitary ants, there are many solitary bees who "serve" no queen. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:13, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
The not-quite-aptness of the terminology is discussed in the article Queen ant.
On the other hand, they do form the center of their community, and they have servants that wait on them hand and foot. (Mandible and antenna?) So it's not entirely spurious.
In some species the queen has at least some small decision-making capabilities. In Honey Bees she has some control over the swarming behavior. (Although, surprisingly enough, the new hive construction site is chosen democratically. Swarming_(honey_bee)#Nest_site_selection)
ApLundell (talk) 14:14, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
The term "queen" better matches the modern role of the Queen of England. That is, she is well taken care of, but doesn't have much real power. StuRat (talk) 15:06, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Don't use the term if you don't like it. "Queen ant" is technically informal, but plenty of myrmecologists use the term, even formal in scholarly writing e.g. (here [20]).
If you want to avoid anthropomorphic language, use gyne; that is the formal term for a queen ant, bee, or termite. See e.g. here [21] for usage in the scholarly literature.
There are also terms gynergate and ergatogyne that describe various intermediate forms between workers (erg) and queens (gyne). We also have gamergate and ergatoid. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:21, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
The term "Queen" is also use for the vertebrate naked mole-rat and the Damaraland mole-rat. Interestingly, these are the only two eusocial mammals we know of, so they have a lifestyle and reproductive system similar to some of the ants and bees discussed above. DrChrissy (talk) 19:33, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Hey @DrChrissy:. Not all authors consider those mole rates to be eusocial. Our NMR article gives this ref [22] which says they are "arguably" eusocial. As you may know, there are (still) competing definitions, even in this decade. Here [23] is an article that clearly considers them NOT to be eusocial, but instead semisocial, and also gives further refs on that. I'm wondering if this merits a more careful treatment in our article? SemanticMantis (talk) 20:23, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

So, humans aren't eusocial, because they do not divide individuals into reproductive and non-reproductive categories? What kind of social organization do humans have then? Homosexual humans do not reproduce. Do they make humans eusocial? (talk) 19:53, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
No. It's when a species has most individuals non-reproductive that it becomes eusocial, as then the non-reproductive members have no purpose of their own, and only act like cells for the larger super-organism. I don't believe gay, infertile, or otherwise childless people in our society would say they have no purpose in life other than to serve the collective. StuRat (talk) 20:03, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Eusocial has a definition. Some people might argue that some human societies may have counted as such, but in general we don't have obligate non-reproductive adults. Even gay people often reproduce, they're not sterile. Here's a nice article on evolution of sterility [24] in honey bees. The generally accepted reason that eusociality is so rare outside of Hymenoptera is because they have haplodiploid sex determination, and this messes with the evolutionary pressures, relative to diploids like us. Male bees don't have fathers and can't have sons, and sister bees are more related to each other than they are to their parents or potential offspring! This is the short version of why we think sterility evolved in those clades. See Haplodiploidy#Relatedness_ratios_in_haplodiploidy for more info. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:10, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Quite an attachment?[edit]

The idea came to me while using the Dremel.


If a tool resembling the one in the picture along exists, it would be a very capable way of making a neat hole in wood or plastic etc. Is an attachment like this there? Jon Ascton  (talk) 15:13, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

A 52 mm (2.0 in) hole saw with pilot bit

You're looking for a Hole saw. They exist for dremels[25]. Notice that unlike the one you drew, they often(but not always) have a pilot bit in the center to guide them in. Otherwise they would skitter all over your work piece. ApLundell (talk) 15:18, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Also notice the slots in the side of the saw pictured above. Some, but not all hole saws have these. The purpose is to allow you to insert a screwdriver or other tool to pry out the plug of wood, which often gets stuck in the saw after completing the hole. CodeTalker (talk) 17:07, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
The OP's image drill looks suitable for sawing large holes in soft material such as wood but the tools for the Dremel are for grinding small holes (3 to 12mm) in hard material. This is a single conical step drill for my cordless drill that gives a choice of hole sizes, works in most non-brittle materials and leaves suitable holes for countersunk wood screws. It's even occasionally useful as a crude reamer. Blooteuth (talk) 18:39, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Alien fungus?[edit]

A friend of mine showed me this link purporting that alien fungus is growing on space stations. It sounds bogus, but I'm curious how that fungus grew on those places in the first place. Would terrestrial fungus somehow hitch a ride on a ship and then grow in space? ScienceApe (talk) 18:27, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

First of all, this is really old news, even if the UFO websites are just hearing about it. Here's a NASA story on the topic from more than 15 years ago. Microscopic Stowaways on the ISS.
Secondly, this is something that the NASA manned space flight program has studied really hard for a really long time. The pests are from Earth, not from outer space - they are Earth-based life forms that got on to the ISS hardware and somehow managed to survive on the interior and exterior of the space station, especially in fabrics, despite everybody's best efforts to sterilize the material before launch, during launch, in flight, and so on. Most astonishingly, some of these life forms don't die even if they're stuck on the outside of the station, exposed to harsh vacuum, temperature, radiation, sunlight, and so on.
Nimur (talk) 18:59, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Sure, why wouldn't a fungus flourish inside a space station? The environment there is not so different than places molds grow on earth. Here's another NASA page describing how they specifically brought fungus to space to study how it grows there [26]. See research article and photos here [27].
For the *outside* of a space station, that's a little more impressive, but we have a long and growing list of organisms that can survive the vacuum of space. If tardigrades can survive out there, it's not so surprising that some fungi and bacteria can as well. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:05, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
More links:
When in doubt, try searching for content from, or if you're seeking a little more technically-advanced content, visit NASA NTRS.
Nimur (talk) 19:08, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Getting rid of it might be difficult. In my home, I would spray bleach on it then open a window to ventilate the area, but I understand they rather frown on opening windows on the ISS. :-) StuRat (talk) 19:21, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
So they can survive in space, but do they grow, and are they in some way edible? If so, maybe they could be farmed on the moon, Mars, etc. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:12, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Fungi need organic material to grow, and you'd have to bring that with you to the moon. The link I give above discusses how at least one species grows, with growth medium, in space. SemanticMantis (talk) 20:25, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
The OP may be interested in Tersicoccus phoenicis, a bacteria found only in spacecraft assembly "cleanrooms", and interplanetary contamination. Matt Deres (talk) 01:20, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Question about the Time Dialtion[edit]

Is the longer path traced out by a light pulse in the triangle of time dilation REAL or pseudo like fictitious force relative to the stationary observer if I am not missing something in the following?

Please refer to the Time Dilation Triangle diagram in the link or you can make your own

Both upper and lower mirrors of the light clock are firmly attached to the ceiling and floor respectively of the moving frame.

Let the base of the time dilation triangle is AA’=s=vt’ where t’ is dilated time

Relative to the stationary frame

• The velocity of the moving frame is v in time t where t is not dilated. This means mirrors also move at v in time t (where t is not dilated).

• Length contraction also affect the exact position of the mirrors inside the moving frame

• The spatial distance covered by the moving frame at any time t is s=vt (where t is not dilated). Thus

• The spatial distance covered by upper mirror of the moving frame from B to B’ is s=vt (where t is not dilated)

• The spatial distance covered by lower mirror of the moving frame from A to A’ is s=vt (where t is not dilated)

Since the aforementioned spatial distances covered in t and t’ (BB’= AA”= s = vt’ and s = vt) are not equal therefore what would be the real distance of upper and lower mirror (or any stationary object) inside the moving frame from its original position B and A respectively relative the stationary observer 2001:56A:7399:1200:131:8B26:E7B6:F63 (talk) 23:25, 28 April 2017 (UTC)eek

The "real" distance traveled, from the perspective of the stationary observer, is vt. You would never calculate it as vt', since that value for time belongs to a different observer. To your original question: yes, the path traced is real, it has to be. How else is the light to pass between the mirrors from the perspective of the stationary observer? It's not clear to me what you are missing. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:08, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

April 29[edit]

Perseid meteor shower and other meteor showers, could it be from the Earth/Moon breakup?[edit]

Hi, scientists studying the Earth/Moon breakup recently have favored a collision as the cause. It seems that would create lots of debris that not all of which would be gathered into either the Moon or Earth, and since it originated on some point along the earth's orbit, there would be a chance the debris could continue to intersect the Earth's orbit for billions of years. Is this possible/likely? thanks.Rich (talk) 02:54, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Billions of years seems unlikely. Over that period is should all be cleared out, if it intercepted Earth's orbit. Also, wouldn't the particles which escaped head off in random directions, rather than all the same direction ? StuRat (talk) 03:23, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
As that article implies, and Comet Swift–Tuttle confirms (with a reference), the Perseids come from that comet. Matt Deres (talk) 03:35, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
The earth/moon breakup is discussed at Giant-impact hypothesis and it mentions that the time of the impact can be dated from "stony meteorites" and it is backed by a reference, but it doesn't specify which shower (if any) the meteorites came from. Unfortunately, the reference is behind a paywall. The abstract implies that the meteorites involved were from long ago. Matt Deres (talk) 03:41, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
The source you're referring to is available on one of the authors sites here. I only skimmed through it and only understand half the terminology anyway, but as far as I can tell, they aren't referring to meteorites hitting the moon (or earth), but rather meteorites from the moon/earth breakup hitting other things, particularly 4 Vesta without linking them to any particular shower. It does say at the end:

although the importance of GI ejecta returning to strike the Moon has yet to be quantitatively evaluated, the values computed here suggest that it could play an intriguing role in the earliest phase of lunar bombardment.

Nil Einne (talk) 04:06, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
It's a cool source. It also mentions in the supplement that the debris created by the impact was expected to be cleared relatively quickly, with 99% of the ejected fragments either landing on the moon, a planet, sun, or ejected from the solar system by 250 million years afterwards. The supplement also lists the sources of the meteors referenced for the study, which come from all over the place, and in no case is it immediately obvious when the meteor was deposited on Earth except for the Chelyabinsk meteor. Perhaps if you really dug through the references you could find out when these meteors arrived on Earth (on first pass, even the articles they reference don't mention that, so you'd have to go for references of references at least). Anyway, seems like the authors are interested only in the age of the meteors themselves (since last molten), and not how long they've been on Earth. They do mention that the only fragments of collision expected to survive more than a few hundred million years would be those in highly inclined orbits of the sun, which would fit the perseids, except that those come from a comet. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:07, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
BTW, since it's been more than a year, the article even on the Science (journal) is no longer behind a paywall. It's available here [28] with free registration. You can also access the supplements if you register. Nil Einne (talk) 04:45, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
The short answer: over time most of the stuff gets pulled onto a collision course with something. The gravity of the Solar System's planets and moons perturbs stuff. Very small debris also loses orbital energy due to the Poynting–Robertson effect. This is why you don't see stuff randomly distributed around the solar system. It's why there's an asteroid belt. I'm sure there's the odd bit of leftover stuff out there, but most of the debris from the Theia impact never even reached escape velocity (which we know because it fell back to Earth or coalesced into the Moon). -- (talk) 05:20, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Is there a name for this mental defect ?[edit]

Normally when we interpret speech, we must decide between different possible meanings. For example, if someone said "Be careful, it's hot" after handing you food, then that would apply to the food. But if they said that before you went outside on a hot day, it would apply to the air temperature. If somebody is unable to pick up on the context, is there a name for that disorder ? StuRat (talk) 03:36, 29 April 2017 (UTC)


April 23[edit]

Coiled Phone Cord[edit]

I have tried this experiment repeatedly. If I pick up the handset of a landline phone cord, make a call, and then hang up, I invariably find the cord has become tangled by several loops. Even if I let the cord hang free, so that it lies untangled, after the next call, it will have multiple loops in it. At most I might change hands once or twice, but that does not in my mind account for it then having six or more loops in it when I hang up. Any material that addresses this? Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 02:43, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Classifying n-gons[edit]

I could have asked this question at any time, but it came to my attention when I saw recent edits to the polygons template.

Triangles can be classified as:

  1. Equilateral = 3 lines of symmetry, all sides are equal and all angles are 60 degrees.
  2. Isosceles = 1 line of symmetry, 2 sides are equal and one side is different; 2 angles are equal and one angle (the angle formed by the legs) is different.
  3. Scalene = no lines of symmetry, no congruent sides and no congruent angles.

To generalize these 3 classifications of triangles into n-gons for n > 3, we can do so as follows:

The generalization of the equilateral triangle is clearly the regular polygon. This is the square for n = 4.

But how about generalizing the isosceles triangle?? An isosceles polygon (a generalization of an isosceles triangle) would be a polygon that is not regular but that has at least one line of symmetry. The non-square rectangle, rhombus, kite, and isosceles trapezoid are all examples of isosceles quadrilaterals.

Likewise, a scalene polygon is a polygon with no lines of symmetry. I don't know whether to categorize a polygon with no lines of symmetry but rotational symmetry (a parallelogram that's not a rectangle or a rhombus) is correctly classified as scalene.

These categories can continue for n-gons for any value n. Do isosceles polygons in general have special properties?? How about scalene polygons in general?? Georgia guy (talk) 12:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Properties of scalene polygons in general would be properties of all polygons. These would be in the article Polygon. As for all polygons with a line of symmetry, you could look at Isosceles trapezoid or Rhombus, and see if any of the properties there generalize. Loraof (talk) 18:59, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
The three disjoint sets into which triangles are classified (by some) do not easily extend to other polygons. Classification follows an inclusive structure for other n-gons. I would regard the concept of "scalene polygons" as original research and therefore inappropriate for Wikipedia (but you are welcome to prove me wrong) Dbfirs 11:13, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
One approach would be to look at the symmetry group of each regular polygon, determine the subgroups, and then find geometric examples of the subgroups. For triangles, symmetry group of the regular (equilateral) triangle has 3 rotations (including 360 degrees) and 3 reflections. It basically has 2 subgroups: 1 reflection, which corresponds to the isoceles triangle, and the identity, which corresponds to the scalene triangle. Square symmetry can be divided up in more interesting ways, so you'll get objects (e.g. rectangles) that don't correspond to triangle subgroups, as well as objects that do (isosceles trapezoid). I expect after working out the details up to octagons or decagons, the general properties of any n-gon will become apparent.--Wikimedes (talk) 15:56, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

April 24[edit]

derivative of constrained function is sum of unconstrained partials?[edit]

Hello, while studying neural networks I came upon what was described by the lecturer as a "math trick" to solve a particular type of optimization problem using gradient descent. Basically, when optimizing a neural net that requires two parameters to be equal, you can replace the partial derivative for each constrained parameter by the sum of the partials with respect to each constrained parameter. So if you have , then the derivative of with respect to is the same as the sum of the partial derivatives of with respect to and . So far I have not been able to find a counter example, but I also do not know how to prove it. If anyone has pointers, clues, or proofs please help! Sorry if its obvious, and thanks! Brusegadi (talk) 01:09, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

It's a particular case of the multivariable chain rule; it's easier to see what's going on from the more general form . --JBL (talk) 01:52, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Thank you so much! Brusegadi (talk) 02:08, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

How about a slightly different situation involving total derivative of a function G of constrained independent variables xi with constant sum, for instance 1. Can the partial derivative with respect to xi exist by keeping the other xj constant even if only the sum of xi is constant, not every xi? Is this due to fact that dxi is around zero? Thanks.-- (talk) 23:49, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

The partial derivative is a feature of the function, not of the combination of function and constraint. So yes, the partial derivative can exist regardless of what context the function will be used in. You can take the total differential of G, which in the n=2 case is
Then if you impose and hence hence you get
Loraof (talk) 16:16, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
But if n>2, not enough information has been provided—for the last step, we need to know how the offset of is distributed among etc. Loraof (talk) 16:21, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
But can x2 be held constant when taking the partial derivative in respect to x1 as requested by the definition of the partial derivative? Similar question for the other independent variable x1 to be held constant when taking the partial derivative in respect to x2. Isn't the situation a bit stretched because strictly one independent variable cannot be made constant when the partial derivative is taken in respect to the other indepedent variable in such cases where only the sum of independent variables can be constant? Or it is about quasi-constancy of independent variables which is satisfactory in this situation?-- (talk) 00:17, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
The original question does not ask for a partial derivative so it's hard to see the relevance of this query. Maybe you should ask a new question instead, where you can make your hypotheses clear. --JBL (talk) 01:07, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Johnson's SU-distribution[edit]

Is Johnson's SU-distribution and "shepherd's crook" and Johnson Curve all the same thing? Thanks. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 06:25, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I want to know because of [31] and [32] that I did. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:24, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Face value numbers[edit]

When we count, for example, coins or banknotes by their face value rather than actual quantity expressed by natural numbers, are those still natural numbers or some other kind? Thanks.-- (talk) 16:59, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Natural numbers don't include decimals, and most currencies have a sub-denomination (like cents for dollars), which makes it a decimal number. Yen is one that doesn't, so, for that case, I suppose you could use natural numbers for prices, in most cases (with exceptions for buying in quantity, where they might break the price down by tenths of a yen, etc.) StuRat (talk) 17:38, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps not everyone will agree, but I would consider natural numbers to be dimensionless. Currency is given units of whatever denomination it is, so $5 is not the same as 5 even though there's no decimals being used. --RDBury (talk) 05:21, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Yep as we all know time is money so definitely not dimensionless :) Dmcq (talk) 10:25, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

April 25[edit]


How can I calculate Cochleoid? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:52, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

See Cochleoid. Loraof (talk) 15:52, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Broadcasting on a dynamic grid[edit]

We are given a nxn grid, where each node can maintain a single "active" edge with one of its 4 neighbors at each time step. The active edge of each node changes periodically clockwise or anticlockwise, in the sense that if, for example, at time t node v has an active edge with its upper neighbor, and it rotates clockwise, at times t+1, t+2 and t+3 it will maintain an active edge with its right, lower and left neighbors, respectively.

at time t=0 node (i,j) holds a message, and at each time step a node that has already received the message can transfer it through an active edge to one of its neighbors, if that neighbor also maintains this edge as active at this time step.

I am looking for sufficient conditions (initial active edges configurations and rotation direction of all the nodes) such that the message can be transmitted to all nodes in the grid.

Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 17:20, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

If you just want a sufficient condition: every node rotates clockwise. The node at position (i,j) starts with the right edge active if i+j is even, and with the left edge active if i+j is odd.--2406:E006:2C7:1:1521:7BAE:223B:27D9 (talk) 03:09, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
That, or the three other rotations of it, is also a necessary condition. Dmcq (talk) 10:34, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
For entirely clockwise, yes. Once nodes are allowed to rotate either direction, there are continuum many solutions.--2406:E006:2C7:1:1521:7BAE:223B:27D9 (talk) 13:59, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

April 28[edit]

line of sight from building height[edit]

There's a simple formula for calculating your line of sight given a certain height H: .

But what about the longest possible line of sight given two heights, H1 and H2? (Assuming spherical Earth of course) ECS LIVA Z (talk) 07:42, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Just realized that when H1 = H2 it's simply twice of . That's pretty cool. ECS LIVA Z (talk) 07:46, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
I think it might be but I'm not sure. ECS LIVA Z (talk) 08:35, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
@ECS LIVA Z: Two heights of what?--Jasper Deng (talk) 09:30, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Buildings, spherical cows, or really tall people would work too. ECS LIVA Z (talk) 10:09, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, that's right, . In each case these longest sightlines are tangent to the Earth's surface. The longest sightline between the two heights is tangent to the surface at exactly the same place where the sightlines to the horizon from either of the two heights would be, so it's the same line and its length equals the sum of the horizon distances from the two heights. (Assuming not only spherical Earth, but no refraction of light, of course.) -- (talk) 10:19, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! ECS LIVA Z (talk) 10:31, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

number of independent sets in a regular graph[edit]

Hi all,
How many independent sets of size k are there in a d-regular graph on n vertices?
Thanks in advance — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:10, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

It depends on the graph, not just on d, n, k. (Compare the hexagon with two disjoint triangles, for example, with k = 3.) --JBL (talk) 20:06, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Is there some lower bound on this number? (For the case the graph is connected) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 08:58, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Space of connected acyclic graphs on N[edit]

Consider the space of all connected acyclic graphs whose vertices are the elements of N. A basic clopen set is of the form where is an acyclic graph on , and is the set of all connected acyclic graphs that restrict to on . Is this space Polish?

The natural metric is , where is largest such that the restrictions of and agree on , but this isn't complete. For example, for odd, let be the graph with an edge between and for every , and an edge from to . Then , but the limit isn't connected.--2406:E006:2C7:1:5CE9:32F9:4BCD:AEF3 (talk) 21:31, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Answering my own question: yes. Define , where is largest such that for every , the (unique) path from i to j in is identical to the corresponding path in .--2406:E006:2C7:1:10A1:247E:F704:923A (talk) 22:19, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

April 29[edit]

Trouble with Wolfram Alpha, calculating height of spherical cap[edit]

The volume of a spherical cap of height and sphere radius is

I want to solve for . So I plug it into Wolfram Alpha here:*+h%5E2+*+(3*r-h),+solve+h

The solution is kind of ugly but can be simplified parametrically as


The problem is that part under radical . It's always a negative number no matter what I plug in.

For example, if then . But plugging those values in results in a negative square root argument, .

The weird thing is, I've used this before, and it worked. I'm wondering if I made a typo that I'm just not seeing. ~Anachronist (talk) 00:24, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

You apparently have an example of casus irreducibilis, in which a cubic equation with three real roots can only be solved algebraically by invoking imaginary numbers. Notice that your non-real expression a appears twice in the solution for h; while it is not obvious, the imaginary parts cancel out, and the expression for h is real. To avoid imaginary numbers, you can use the trigonometric solution in Casus irreducibilis#Non-algebraic solution in terms of real quantities. Loraof (talk) 01:14, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
  • The article you linked gives the area formula as
This doesn't seem to agree with the area formula you gave. Loraof (talk) 01:37, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
@Loraof: look further down... the formula you quoted uses r as the base radius of the cap. Further down there's a formula using the radius of the sphere, which is what I started with above. I'm trying to get the height of the cap, knowing only the volume and the sphere radius.
Thanks for the suggestion to try Casus irreducibilis#Non-algebraic solution in terms of real quantities. Unfortunately, that seems to work for problems that can be expressed as whereas the formula here has in the middle term squared. ~Anachronist (talk) 01:52, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
You just need to perform a substitution to depress the cubic, as stated in the very same article. Double sharp (talk) 05:15, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Chain Rule for Canonical Form[edit]

I am a bit confused about the principal part of the PDE, and what its roots mean for the dy/dx = λ , and and how that came about. I understand that the sign of the discriminant b squared minus 4ac determines whether the PDE is Hyperbolic, Parabolic, or Elliptic, but as to the roots of from the related quadratic equation, I am a bit mystified. I understand that the roots are used to determine the coefficients of x in PDE's that might have general solutions such as f( m1x + y) + g(m2x + y ), where m1 and m2 are the roots, and therefore the coefficients of x in this form of solution, but as to stuff about the canonical form, I am confused. I see that for this, where we have the principal part of the PDE of second order being Au(sub)xx + Bu(sub)xy + Cu(sub)yy, where for example, u(sub)xx is just the second partial derivative of u with respect to x, and so on, then we have a change of coordinates, letting xi = xi(x,t), and tau = tau(x,t), so that in terms of these new coordinates, by the Chain Rule, we have : u(sub)x = xi(sub)x*U(sub)xi + tau(sub)x*U(sub)tau, and u(sub)t = xi(sub)t*U(sub)xi + tau(sub)t*U(sub)tau, and that makes sense, but then I do not get why the second derivative of u with respect to x is what it is. I thought it would simply be partial d/dx of this u(sub)x expression, but done by the power rule, so that d/dt[xi(sub)x*U(sub)xi], would be in the form of f'g +g'f, with f = xi(sub)x, and f' = xi(sub)xx, being the its derivative with respect to x, and therefore that g = U(sub)xi, and g' = U(sub)xix, being the its derivative with respect to x, that is, partial d squared U over partial xi partial x. I hope this is clear, and I am sorry I have not been able as yet to master Latex, so I can only portray the derivatives in another way I hope can be understood. So what I do not understand is why the u(sub)xx has squared terms, and other things, and where it has come from. From this, also, what the Canonical Form means, and what it is meant to look like. Thank You. Chris the Russian Christopher Lilly 06:07, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

@Christopher1968: If you are not comfortable using LaTeX, then I suggest using subscript notation. Subscripts can be inserted using the <sub> tag. For example, the second partial derivative of u with respect to x is denoted as uxx. It's very hard to follow what you're saying, especially with the additional subscript i.--Jasper Deng (talk) 09:46, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Is the following Subset Sum Problem variant NP-hard?[edit]

Is the following problem NP-hard:


Question: is there a multiset of indices , such that and ?

For example, on the input , we can take and thus we get and , as desired. (talk) 07:28, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

@ Since you are asking for a multiset, I am assuming we can only have linear combinations of members of A with nonnegative coefficients. Then this problem is known as the unbounded subset sum problem and is NP-complete. I am not sure exactly why; Knapsack Problems gives a proof of this, and that text is very reputable, but that particular proof seems to be flawed (or I am misunderstanding it). A few months ago, I asked your question to Christos Papadimitriou and he told me it's NP-complete, and that it can be founded in Computers and Intractability (although a perusal of that book by me failed to turn it up; I might have looked at the wrong edition or something). See also the coin problem, which is NP-hard and is very related to this problem.--Jasper Deng (talk) 08:44, 29 April 2017 (UTC)


April 24[edit]

Radical flank effect[edit]

I asked about this before, but I think this article is just about exactly what I was looking for. And I was told such studies didn't exist!

Anyway, any more sources would be appreciated, particularly relating to recent events. Benjamin (talk) 06:28, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

That article has 24 sources! Could you perhaps be more specific about what more you need - what gaps are you seeking to fill? Re sources referring to recent events, you can narrow google results to recent scholarly papers or news articles using the Tools tab. For instance, here are the results for the term on news sites in the last year, while here are the results for academic publications in 2017 so far. It seems people are discussing the term related to the Arab Spring, the 2017 Women's March, etc. (talk) 15:11, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I am wondering about it in relation to recent antifa / BLM / neo nazi actions. Benjamin (talk) 11:41, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
If my memory of the Benjamin's original query is at all accurate, he may find Overton Window (in the above article's 'See also' list), of relevance. {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 01:25, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

What's the problem of a trade surplus like the German or Chinese one?[edit]

When a country has a trade surplus like Germany or China, how can that be blamed on these countries? Isn't it just the case that they are competitive and selling what others are willing to buy in a functional free market? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Justpierrepit (talkcontribs) 07:55, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Depends. If the trade surplus is due to unilateral barriers, or dumping, or deliberately keeping the currency cheap, or some other trade practice that is not regarded as fair, then other countries have a legitimate issue with it. For example, in the 18th century, China's massive trade surplus against Britain was largely attributable to Chinese trade barriers that restricted British imports. When the Chinese government refused to budge on trade barriers, Britain started selling / smuggling opium into China to try to address the balance. When China clamped down on opium, that led to the Opium War. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 14:05, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
...the main trade barrier being that China prohibited the import of opium. No particular trade barriers in general required - Europe had little that China wanted to buy, while Europe liked tea and porcelain and silk. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:54, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
The "no demand" line was used by the Chinese government but the lack of demand was a result of the trade barriers. You may have missed the main trade barrier because it is so glaring that it would be unthinkable today: no foreign trader was permitted to enter China except a limited number of companies who were allowed to be in Canton and whose movements even there were restricted. It's not easy to flog English furniture to the Chinese if you can't even leave your office - a situation which changed very quickly once China was opened up by force, all of a sudden British goods of all kinds were suddenly in demand in China. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:13, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Since Germany are in the Euro-zone this has a knock-on effect by keeping the value of the Euro comparatively high. This makes it harder for all Eurozone countries to export. Obviously Germany can manage this, or they wouldn't have a surplus, but it makes it harder for the weaker economies (Spain, Greece, Italy, etc.) to recover. -- Q Chris (talk) 14:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
PalaceGuard008 hit the main points, and Q Chris did as well. Germany’s trade surplus means that, as a group, it’s trading partners run a deficit with Germany. Given the weak state of the EU economy, this is a serious problem: exporting one’s way out of economic trouble is a key recipe for recovery, and Germany is hindering that option among the country’s trading partners. ADD: It is also working through the European Central Bank ot keep the euro stronger than it should be (on weak economic fundamentals), which is as big an issue. DOR (HK) (talk) 18:25, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
In the case of China there are additional issues, like whether it is really a good idea to enrich them via trade to the point where they become the dominate superpower. They seem to become more militant the richer they get, such as building bases on man-made islands they've constructed to seize contested waters. StuRat (talk) 18:33, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
China doesn't amass that much wealth as a result of their trade surplus - a large proportion of that money actually flows out as investment, particularly FDI, which is why Chinese companies are often involved in overseas infrastructure projects (particularly in Africa, but also in developed countries a la Hinkley Point) and company acquisitions. Indeed in theory the balance of payments, not to be confused with the balance of trade (net exports), is supposed to balance out to zero through money flowing out of a country with a trade surplus as investment. And the link between wealth and aggressiveness is extremely tenuous, with many other factors to be considered. Alcherin (talk) 18:54, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

In Germany's case, the rest of the European Union can not compete with them in the exports department. Use for example List of countries by exports:

  • The entire exports of the European Union in 2016 were $2,659,000,000,000. The German exports were $1,283,000,000,000. Most of the rest of the European Union have much smaller export profits:
    • France. $505,400,000,000
    • Netherlands. $460,100,000,000
    • Italy. $436,300,000,000
    • United Kingdom. $412,100,000,000
    • Spain. $266,300,000,000
    • Belgium. $250,800,000,000
    • Poland. $188,300,000,000
    • Sweden. $151,100,000,000
    • Austria. $142,900,000,000
    • Czech Republic. $131,000,000,000
    • Republic of Ireland. $125,500,000,000
    • Denmark. $95,970,000,000
    • Hungary. $89,440,000,000
    • Slovakia. $73,120,000,000
    • Finland. $61,290,000,000
    • Romania. $58,421,000,000
    • Portugal. $54,330,000,000
    • Greece. $27,500,000,000
    • Slovenia. $26,670,000,000
    • Bulgaria. $24,620,000,000
    • Lithuania. $24,810,000,000
    • Luxembourg. $20,900,000,000
    • Estonia. $13,440,000,000
    • Latvia. $13,330,000,000
    • Croatia. $12,230,000,000
    • Malta. $3,896,000,000
    • Cyprus. $2,420,000,000

The only countries on the planet who currently earn more from exports than Germany are China (the world leader in exports) and the United States. Dimadick (talk) 23:21, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

You must only be looking at gross exports, not net exports (exports minus imports). There the US is substantially negative. StuRat (talk) 15:20, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
off topic political debate
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

You mean as opposed to sending humans waves over the Korean peninsula or (re-)occupying Tibet? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:00, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Or invading Grenada, or deposing the democratically elected president of Chile, or trying to assassinate Castro, or bombing Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Iraq etc Widneymanor (talk) 08:54, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Indeed - I'm not saying China has been particularly aggressive in the past, but rather the perception of increasing militancy by the PRC may not be based in a historical perspective, but in current news pushed by not entirely disinterested parties. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:17, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
They haven't been particularly militarily aggressive because they lacked the ability, other than with neighbors. In particular, the lack of a large navy made it impossible for them to invade nations that weren't on their border. But, they are using all the money we are sending them to build up a strong navy right now. StuRat (talk) 17:42, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
And I haven't become a ballet dancer because I couldn't find a pair of slippers...both possible claims, but neither particularly well supported... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:27, 25 April 2017 (
tfw a massively-militaristic global superpower with troops deployed in 150 countries complains about the world's most populous country putting up a man-made island a few hundred miles off its own coast. I mean, we have an entire carrier strike group home-ported next door to China in a country that, within living memory, attempted to conquer China in a most brutal and depraved fashion. I'll be worried about China when they base a naval fleet in Havana. Let me know when that happens. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:04, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
It will be way too late when that happens, as they will already be the only superpower left. As for the US, at least since the cold war ended, the US has mostly tried to work for the good of the democratic world. (Back during the cold war there were many "deals with the devil" made to hold back communism.) It's true that the removal of Saddam Hussein hasn't worked out well, but keep in mind that he was an evil bastard who used poison gas on his own people, too. Compare that to what we should expect from China if it becomes the only superpower. We've seen no willingness for them to take on one issue they could solve now, North Korea. All they would have to do is cut off oil and other trade until NK gives up the nukes. But they don't. Instead they undermine the rest of the world's efforts by continuing to trade with them.
As for a new superpower to replace the US, I'd like to see the EU take on this role, or better yet a coalition of all democratic nations, including the EU and US.
As for Japan, they are constitutional prohibited from having a strong military, as a result of WW2, so need serious protection from the threats in the region, like NK. StuRat (talk) 17:18, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
We could significantly cut off funding for radical Islamic terrorism if we stopped trading with Saudi Arabia and cut off their oil revenue until their monarchy resigns. But we don't. Instead we undermine the rest of the world's efforts by propping up totalitarian regressive Islamic dictatorships — indeed, selling them modern weapons and fighter jets. Please don't act like China is the only country that makes deals with the devil. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:31, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Are you saying that everyone else in the world has a boycott on trade with Saudi Arabia ? That's news to me. If they did, and the US joined in, then the price of oil would skyrocket, giving Putin more money to use to build up his military to invade the rest of Eastern Europe. And if the Saudi government collapsed, I have no confidence that a free democratic government would replace it. More likely we would get ISIS or something like it. StuRat (talk) 21:26, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
  • The question is aout trade surplusses, not who's more evil. μηδείς (talk) 22:00, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Continents and Landmasses drifting apart. How fast ?[edit]

How fast or slow does continents and landmasses drift apart ?

There is no straightforward answer, I know. It depends on many factors, no doubt, some of them possibly unseen and impossible to account for.

But roughly, how long would it take for, say, the British Isles to drift apart from Mainland Europe to its current position ? It is still relatively close, of course, but are we talking about 3000 years, or 5000 years, 10000 years ...? What about Europe and America, now separated by the Atlantic? How long would that take?

Are there noticeable differences in the landmasses between modern-day maps, medieval maps, and pre-Christ maps ? (talk) 11:27, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Hi. The British Isles are on the same continental plate as the European mainland. Differences in the width of the Channel depend on other factors, such as rising sea levels. European and North America were last together 175 million years ago. The main differences with historical maps seem to be due to the ability to make accurate measurements. (talk) 11:42, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
(ec) The effect you're talking about is Continental drift. See that article and the related seafloor spreading for details.
  • The Mid-Atlantic Ridge is spreading at about 2.5 cm a year. given that the North Atlantic is about 2,800 km wide, the change is almost unnoticeable, and far below the precision of even modern day maps.
  • The British Isles are on the same tectonic plate as Western Europe, so they aren't 'drifting away' from it. The English Channel was opened up mainly by the rise in sea level after the last ice age.
Rojomoke (talk) 11:53, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
(ec)Thanks to GPS we now have rather precise numbers for the current velocity of separation of for instance the North American Plate and the Eurasian Plate at about 25 mm per year. We also know that break-up between those two plates northwards from the southern tip of Greenland and the southern end of the Rockall Basin happened about 55 million years ago, so it's possible to work out a longer period average. In general we're talking a few cms per year. As to the separation of the British Isles from mainland Europe, that's a result of progressive drowning since the last ice age - they're not getting any further apart physically. Mikenorton (talk) 11:55, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
It's often said that North America and Europe are moving apart at about the speed that fingernails grow - see Plate tectonics#Key principles. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 13:25, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
This movement is too little to show up on maps even thousands of years old. However, there are other difference that do show up, such as changing river courses, river deltas, and sandbars. Volcanoes also can change the land either suddenly, or in a case like the Hawaiian islands, slowly.StuRat (talk) 18:38, 24 April 2017 (UTC) -- I think that most differences in geography between the present and antiquity (2000-4000 years ago) are due to the relationship between water and land (rivers changing paths, water breaking through to fill low-lying depressions, areas of land rising or falling vertically, sea levels rising or falling etc.), not due to continental drift. In the early to mid 20th century, it was thought that in Sumerian times the Persian Gulf extended farther north into today's southernmost Iraq, with land later added by agricultural sediments flowing down the rivers; I'm not sure what the current scientific consensus on that is... AnonMoos (talk) 18:55, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

All of recorded history is but the blink of an eye on the timescale of the universe. See Cosmic Calendar for some perspective. Continental drift happens wayyyyyy too slowly for there to have been any large-scale changes since humans arose. Again, for perspective, North America is still rebounding after the retreat of the glaciers from the last glacial maximum. As others have mentioned, the geographic change that occurs on human timescales is due to other processes, like erosion, volcanism, and sea level change, which happen much more quickly. -- (talk) 23:06, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

In terms of what differences show up on the maps this XKCD comic lists a few (you want to start from "that sounds like a physical map or satellite photo", since all other divisions are political). Mostly, these are a result of climate change, lakes being drained/evaporating, or newly created lakes. MChesterMC (talk) 08:39, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Why did some families give daughters an unusually high education?[edit]

Yeah, I know that girls would only receive an elementary education for the most part in Europe, America, and East Asia. But there are exceptions, such as Hypatia. I've also heard that women in Communist countries (Soviet Union and China) became doctors and scientists much earlier than the women in Western countries. For women in Western countries, the women's liberation movement came about in the '60s. (talk) 15:12, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I can tell you anecdotally about Chinese families who had advanced ideas about gender and education and sent their daughters as well as sons through university even in the 1940s, so I don't think Communism is a necessary ingredient. Having the money to support all of one's children through an extra few years of education instead of marrying them off was, however, quite important, especially in the days before free university education or student loans. If culturally women did not habitually work in professional jobs in a particular society, then parents might see even less return for the investment in a university education. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:28, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
See Female education, especially the Ancient Rome section for Hypatia. Upper class Roman women were often highly educated. Rojomoke (talk) 15:32, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
It was better, but not great, in major communist countries (Soviet Union and Russia, for example). I can't think of more than one or two major Community Party leaders from major communist powers in the 20th century (except maybe Margot Honecker and Valentina Tereshkova). In Soviet Bloc countries, the Nomenklatura were almost exclusively male. It is broadly true that Women tended to hold more technical jobs (i.e. Valentina Tereshkova as well), but on the balance did not have access to power. It wasn't that egalitarian. Women_in_Russia#Soviet_era has some background. --Jayron32 15:37, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Okay. So, the upper-class women across the board gets access to high education. Duh. If your family is poor and you are female, then you are probably needed on the farm or in the shop. (talk) 15:54, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Citation needed on "exclusively male." List of Supreme Soviet (1984) delegates. Hardly "exlusively male" (I see tons of female names) Asmrulz (talk) 01:25, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
put the list through a script looking for female-sounding names. ~290 out of ~1500, giving 19%. Asmrulz (talk) 01:35, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Although not always the case, it rather depended on the enlightenment (or otherwise) of the parents. Even in the 20th century, daughters of the wealthy could be packed off to a finishing school which was more about social graces than academic education. Alansplodge (talk) 20:38, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Did the Supreme Soviet actually have much power? Didn't the Politburo actually make most of the decisions?--Wikimedes (talk) 19:46, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Why is that surprising? Feeding women into the (national or corporate) workforce is just what Leftists do. Asmrulz (talk) 01:25, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

In Hypatia's case, her father was the mathematician Theon of Alexandria. He apparently trained his daughter to follow the family tradition. In about the same era lived the empress Aelia Eudocia. Her father was the philosopher Leontius, a teacher of rhetoric at the Platonic Academy. Leontius trained his daughter in rhetoric, literature and philosophy, and had her memorize the works of Homer and Pindar. Dimadick (talk) 00:33, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Young Chinese women in the 1950s at prestigious universities studying medicine[edit]

In China, did the government fund or promote college education for women? The female education article doesn't say anything about college education. Just "schools", which may mean anything beyond elementary school. What about women who went to university and practiced modern medicine in the 1950s? How much money was required for a family to send a girl to university? (talk) 20:34, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

After the Communist revolution, higher education reform started in 1950. One of the principles was that national higher education insitutions would become free. More dramatic changes to the higher education system did not happen until 1951-1952. These reforms were politically driven by a desire for total control over higher education in the light of the Korean War, and included the suprression of church-affiliated universities and independent (non-state) universities. Medical faculties of different (often church or independent) universities were merged into state medical colleges. Someone who wend to medical school after these reforms would have paid little or no fees. I know that the government also generally provided financial assistance to university students, but from googling I cannot find details about whether it was specifically targeted at female students. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:18, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Prior to 1949, women comprised 18% of the enrollment in higher educational institutions; in the 1950s it averaged 23%. In Medicine and pharmacy, women comprised 40% of the student body in 1958, as compared to 22% in the areas of literature, art and eduction. The data are from Professional Manpower and Education in China, by Leo A. Orleans and published by the US Government Printing Office in 1961, which may only be available in an academic library.DOR (HK) (talk) 11:37, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

April 25[edit]

Minimum requirements of Anglicanism?[edit]

What are the minimum requirements of a church to be recognized as part of Anglicanism? I am trying to distinguish Anglicanism from Non-Conformist religions in the 19th century. What makes the Non-Conformist religions non-conforming? How does the Anglican church deal with heretics and religious dissenters? Are religious dissenters sent to the United States of America? Queen Mary I was Catholic who persecuted Protestants. Queen Elizabeth I was a Protestant who persecuted Catholics. Is the only difference between Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism that Anglicanism allows divorce (King Henry VIII) while Roman Catholicism does not? Or are there more Anglican things that makes Anglicanism Anglican? (talk) 00:30, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Our articles Anglicanism and Anglican doctrine would be good places to start. DuncanHill (talk) 00:42, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
The classic statement is the Thirty-nine Articles. You may also want to look at Via media... AnonMoos (talk) 05:01, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Henry VIII's Reformation was much more complex than it is ever taught in schools. He did not divorce his first wife, Catherine, he had the wedding annulled, which is different - rather than ending a marriage, annulment effectively declares that it had never taken place in the first, because it had always been an invalid marriage. The Roman Catholic church recognised this process, but Pope Clement had refused to grant or recognise an annulment for Henry and Catherine. Clement had already suffered through the Sack of Rome and either had no wish to antagonise the European dynasties any further[citation needed] or simply for theological reasons he refused this (Henry's marriage would firstly have been seen as invalid, as Catherine was his brother's widow, but he'd already been granted a dispensation to marry despite, and so Clement saw this as making the marriage valid and thus indissoluble). Henry wanted that annulment, so he split from Rome. Yet the new Anglican church was still (and remains) a catholic church, just no longer a Roman Catholic church, under the authority of the Pope. Henry had no great interest in Lutheran or Calvinist reforms in that theological Protestant sense, he just wanted that annulment and would change the authority of the Anglican church to get it, without necessarily anything more than changing its loyalties.
Then Tudor politics kicks in, and the theological basis of the Anglican church swings around in a complicated fashion, involving various persecutions of and by Roman Catholics, and the lighting of candles in Oxford. Then Stuart politics happens, and the English Civil War.
The Civil War period and the 17th century sees the appearance of liberation theology and is a time of a great many nonconformist [sic] religious and political groups: Diggers, Levellers, Grindletonians, Muggletonians, right through to the early albums of Billy Bragg. After the Restoration of the monarchy we see the Clarendon Code trying to restore the previous order, part of which was the 1662 Act of Uniformity and the resultant Great Ejection.
A Nonconformist is someone who is recognised as broadly a Protestant but outside the Act of Uniformity; hence the name, and the concept as a single group really dating from this point. But at least they were ejected, rather than burned, as they would have been a hundred years earlier, as were those Catholics under the 1559 Act of Uniformity.
Nonconformists were tolerated in Britain, but constrained. They had freedom of worship (particularly after the Toleration Act 1689), but were excluded from many roles in society, such as the church, public offices, university degrees and may still be required to pay taxes to a local Anglican church.
An important new group of Nonconformists appeared in the 18th century, including the Methodists. By the middle of the 19th century, Nonconformists began to outnumber Anglicans. From 1828 the Sacramental Test Act allowed non-Anglicans to enter politics. Nonconformists were an important group in Victorian politics, as the "Nonconformist conscience" was tied strongly first to the Whigs or their successors the Liberals, especially under Gladstone.
Back to your question - I note you're asking from the US. So is the "Nonconformism" you're looking at here meaning a theological difference, a hierarchical difference (there are US churches who follow broadly Anglican theology without being in communion with Canterbury) or the political groups in UK Liberalism who had their roots in religious Nonconformism? Andy Dingley (talk) 11:54, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
If he is in the U.S., the largest Anglican denomination in the U.S. is the Episcopal Church (United States). American Presbyterianism is the largest mainline group in the U.S. to have come down from English dissenters, while the United Methodist Church us the largest Wesleyan group, and the Baptists in the United States are also a large presence, those also decend from English protestant traditions from the time period Andy Dingley is discussing. --Jayron32 12:03, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Presbyterianism is and was almost unknown in England. It developed on the West coast of Scotland, with roots in French Calvinism (the Auld Alliance), spreading to Northern Ireland with the Plantation, and thence to the US. English Presbyterianism did exist, but it was far, far smaller than in Scotland, secretive and little known, and had far less influence. Even today it's barely visible outside its churches, and most of these were 19th century foundations by Scots Presbyterians, rather than 17th century English. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:17, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for that correction. --Jayron32 12:21, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Presbyterians had a long history in Wiltshire, particularly around the Trowbridge, Warminster, Bradford area, going back to the 17th century. They did rather overlap with various strains of Baptists, Congregationalists, and even Methodists, and now form part of the United Reformed Church. DuncanHill (talk) 14:30, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Interesting. But it may be a bit more complicated than that. Our article English Presbyterianism equates the Congregational church with ’Independents’, and says:
Aside from Quaker meetings, the English Dissenters styled themselves as either ‘Independent’ or ‘Presbyterian’. <snip> [The latter] regarded each chapel as just another parish church. It was this attitude which, at first, caused particular animosity towards Presbyterians from some Anglicans, who regarded them as schismatics, actively seeking to divide the Church in England. <snip> The more open attitude of Presbyterian congregations led them to appoint ministers with a more liberal viewpoint, which, amongst other factors such as their ministers being trained in the Dissenting Academies, led to a growing heterodoxy into Arminianism, Arianism, and eventually Christian Unitarianism.
This is further discussed in the history of British Unitarianism. Not all Presbyterian chapels were folded into the United Reformed Church. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 11:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • At this point it starts to become important to distinguish the issues of nonconformity as being either Presbyterianism (an issue of how congregations are governed) distinct from Unitarianism vs. Anglican Trinitarianism (a theological issue), or other reasons. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:49, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

How uk government works[edit]

So policy advisors and analysts research and put up options to politicians who make laws, with the support of legal experts. But who actually delivers or implements politicians decisions? Also, what do policy advisors not employed by government do? Do they all advise government in their area of expertise or do they advise leaders of their field/organisation? (talk) 14:29, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

For the answer to your first question, see Civil Service (United Kingdom). --Viennese Waltz 14:30, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Also what role do diplomats play? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:36, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
What do you mean by diplomats? A diplomat is a high level civil servant who works for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. --Viennese Waltz 14:38, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

What's the minimum amount of paper $ or £ redeemable for gov't gold right before the 1929 Crash?[edit]

Would 3 singles do it or did they only exchange multiple gold coins at once? A pound note? Did you have to go to a Federal Reserve Branch or whatever they called the US bank back then or would a small town bank do it? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:05, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

According to Series of 1928 (United States Currency), the smallest Gold certificate was $10.00 --Jayron32 15:12, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
According to Bank of England 10s note, the smallest paper currency issued by the UK was the 10 shilling note (under the old £sd system) issued in 1928, however that same article notes that banks did not redeem notes for gold weighing less than 400 ounces; according to this Britain pegged their currency to the Gold standard at a rate of £4.25 per ounce. Doing some math, that means the smallest amount of money you could get in gold was £1700. --Jayron32 15:39, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
400 troy ounces being the standard weight of a gold bar: they wouldn't cut them up for you! Wymspen (talk) 17:16, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
They could give you bullion coins of smaller weights. --Jayron32 19:04, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
A 0.17 gallon gold brick: something every East Ender seamstress will want to drag home! Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:03, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

International Building Code[edit]

Is the International Building Code adopted as standard by any country other than the US? ECS LIVA Z (talk) 17:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Read this. --Jayron32 19:01, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Late medieval pattern books for art[edit]

This is a topic which Wikipedia seems to lack an article on, and I can't get much information from the internet in general either. Here's a relevant post on a blog, with this quote:

"In Medieval times, book illustrators aimed to produce very rich illustrations to decorate their books. For inspiration they kept pattern or model books. These books contained jottings of anything that caught the illustrator's eye: figures, animals, monsters, decorative capital letters, borders, motifs. But these weren't drawn firsthand - they were all borrowed from earlier books, paintings or glass windows. [..] Pattern books were practical tools and also helped to circulate artistic traditions and ideas around the manuscript making community. Because they were working documents, passing between many different people, few medieval pattern books have survived."

The quote apparently comes from a now-deleted page on the British Library's site.

Here's some pages on Commons from the 1504 manuscript, and here's the Helmingham Herbal which contains a lot of the same drawings in a different order. What I want to know is, are there any other examples of pattern books? We have an article for bestiary, but that's not quite the same thing, and it doesn't mention this use. I'm interested in specifically art-oriented books that might have belonged to artisans. In particular I have a very old memory of watching a documentary which talked about pattern books for parts of animals, such as a lion's feet, dragon wings, or an elephant's trunk, which would be copied repeatedly, leading to a parallel natural history with its own evolution of stylised animal parts. I'd like to find examples such books.

The blog post has this link at the end, which goes to the Web Gallery of Art. The links on that page rapidly advance into naturalistic renaissance art, though the 15th century Bohemian example seems to fit the bill. But that's only a glimpse of one book, where can I find other sources? There could be potential to create a Wikipedia article.

 Card Zero  (talk) 17:28, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Sounds like a great article idea!
Medieval Illuminators and Their Methods of Work By Jonathan J. G. Alexander, Yale University Press 1992. Might need trip to print library or WP:RX to access.
This source suggests "model books" as another search term.
Materials, Methods, and Masterpieces of Medieval Art By Janetta Rebold Benton, Greenwood Publishing 2009 also uses the "model books" term.
Interesting reference to pattern books containing images in Ancient Egyptian style.
Exemplum: Model-book Drawings and the Practice of Artistic Transmission in the Middle Ages By Robert W. Scheller, Amsterdam University Press, 1995 (see also its bibliography).
The Grove Encyclopedia of Materials and Techniques in Art may itself provide enough material to begin an article. It refers to "The notebooks of the 13th-century French architext Villard de Honnecourt (fl c. 1220-40) occupy a unique position within the medieval graphic tradition, combining an instructional manual with theoretical precepts." (Goes on to describe him showing how to build animals from geometric shapes.) There's also a paragraph on pattern books with a few other names. Our article on de Honnecourt looks well sourced too.
P.S. Just for fun, you might enjoy the charming "Two Monks" series at the Toast. Start here... (talk) 11:28, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Marquis of Bath[edit]

My Trollope ancestors come from Horningsham, a village owned by the Marquesses of Bath. In researching my family history I have noticed that in the 19th century and into the early 20th century the spelling "Marquis" was used instead of "Marquess". Was this a preference of the Thynne family, a local spelling, or what? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 20:58, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

See Marquess: In Great Britain and Ireland, the correct spelling of the aristocratic title of this rank is marquess (although for aristocratic titles on the European mainland, the French spelling of marquis is often used in English). -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:02, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Which doesn't say anything about the Baths, which is the specific case I am interested in. DuncanHill (talk) 21:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Neither a preference of the Thynne family nor a local spelling: it just reflects a national change of fashion. The OED's citations for the British title, as opposed to the continental one, show marques, marquess or marquesse was usual in the 16th and 17th centuries, marquis or marquiss in the 18th and 19th centuries, with marquess taking over again sometime during the 20th. Here are the later cites, showing the final change:
1808 J. Austen Let. 2 Oct. (1995) 142 The Marquis has put off being cured for another year.
1845 H. H. Wilson Hist. Brit. India 1805–35 I. iii. 147 Information of the death of Marquis Cornwallis arrived in England at the end of January, 1806.
1901 Empire Rev. 1 466 First in rank come the dukes,..then follow in order of precedence, marquises, first created by Richard II.
1951 V. Heywood Brit. Titles 32 There are five ranks in the Peerage—barons, viscounts, earls, marquesses and dukes.
1987 S. Weintraub Victoria (1988) iv. 78 Lord Grosvenor had been made Marquess of Westminster.
--Antiquary (talk) 09:58, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks Antiquary, I have to say I prefer "marquis" myself. One thing did come to mind - in Simon Raven's Alms for Oblivion and First Born of Egypt series he (or some of his characters) deride the Marquesss Canteloupe for changing from Marquis to Marquess, and Canteloupe is to some extent based on one of the Baths. DuncanHill (talk) 14:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)


What is a muffetiere? George III gave a silver one to John Richards Lapenotière after he brought the news of Trafalgar. DuncanHill (talk) 22:11, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

A sugar shaker.--TMCk (talk) 22:34, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks - the only ghits I can find for this word are the Wikipedia Lapenotière article and articles obviously adapted from it. Earlier versions of the article said "Silver spice sprinkler" which seems more likely. The "Muffetiere" was insewrted by an anon. I'm going to change it back to spice sprinkler. DuncanHill (talk) 22:50, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
I can confirm that the OED knows nothing of "muffetiere". Anon was perhaps misremembering "muffineer": "A small castor with a perforated top for sprinkling salt, sugar, etc., on muffins." (A castor in this sense is not a beaver nor a furniture wheel but "A small vessel with a perforated top, from which to cast or sprinkle pepper, sugar, or the like, in the form of powder; extended to other vessels used to contain condiments at table, as in ‘a set of castors’, i.e. the castors and cruets usual in a cruet-stand.") There are other muffin-related meanings for "muffineer". I am also charmed to discover the "muffetee", a sort of mitten, wristlet, or neck-muffler. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 11:22, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Liskeard and District Museum confirms that it's a muffineer:
The King’s breakfast table was used to show him the disposition of the ships and to recount the events of the battle and a muffineer was used to represent HMS Victory.
The King thanked Lt. Lapenotiere for the efficient and sympathetic manner in which he had discharged his duties and presented him with the silver muffineer. Some years ago descendants of Lt Lapenotiere presented this to Liskeard Town Council where it is now part of the town’s silver.
--Antiquary (talk) 12:40, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Thank you both, Antiquary and Carbon Caryatid, you've cleared that up in a highly satisfactory manner. DuncanHill (talk) 13:46, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

One of Sir Walter Ralegh's judges[edit]

One of the judges at Sir Walter Ralegh's trial is reported to have later said "The justice of England has never been so degraded and injured as by the condemnation of the honourable Sir Walter Raleigh".[1] Do we know which judge and when and in what circumstances he said it? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Entering the quote into Google Books suggests Francis Gawdy, although it is possibly apocryphal. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:07, 26 April 2017 (UTC)


  1. ^ "Crawford v. Washington" (PDF). p. 44. Retrieved 25 April 2017. 

April 26[edit]

Maps of the Spring and Autumn Period[edit]

Are there any maps depicting the mosaic states found during the start of the Spring and Autumn Period, i.e. when hundreds of states were coexisting before the consolidations during 7th and 6th century BC?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:56, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

This one is dated 827-782 BC. --Jayron32 10:40, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

On what charges was she executed?[edit]

The article of Clara Petacci state that she was executed rather than murdered (it also has the execution-category), but it does not state on what charges she was executed. For which crime was she executed? Thank you!--Aciram (talk) 20:29, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

In the midst of a revolution, the difference between an execution and a murder isn't so clear. These were what is often called summary executions. That is, while there was a consensus that they should be killed among whatever provisional government was in place on that day, there was no formal trial. StuRat (talk) 20:34, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
If you haven't already seen it there is some info here Death of Benito Mussolini. I couldn't find the specific answer to your question though so hopefully another editor will be able to post them here. MarnetteD|Talk 20:36, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
From a brief glance at that article, it doesn't appear there were any formal charges for anyone, including Mussolini. Someone tell me if I misread it. --Trovatore (talk) 20:46, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Our article on Petacci is pretty bare-bones. There's a much more extensive article on her in Italian, it:Clara Petacci. It reports that she and Mussolini were "assassinated" by partisans, "in spite of the fact that there was no pending sentence for Petacci" (what, was Mussolini sentenced in absentia or something? I had never heard that). Apparently some claim that she tried to protect Mussolini from the partisans with her body and was shot for that. That sounds a little bit "opera" but who knows.
It sounds like she wasn't purely a love-stricken innocent extraneous to all the proceedings, though: She apparently wrote a letter to Mussolini urging him to execute Galeazzo Ciano. But I doubt the partisans knew about that, or cared if they did; Ciano was probably not high on their list of concerns. --Trovatore (talk) 21:00, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
An interesting contrast is that Mussolini's wife, Rachele Mussolini, was also captured by Italian partisans during the same time frame, in about the same place, yet was not executed, and lived to be 89, despite having fully supported her husband's actions. Was this because wives were treated differently than mistresses, in that time frame, in Italy ? StuRat (talk) 21:07, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
WAG alert: It's more likely that the reason is that she was caught separately and away from her husband. Petacci was probably just the victim of spillover rage against Il Duce. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:02, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Wives and girlfriends alert? Nice double entendre! --Trovatore (talk) 22:15, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
The Italian article seems to treat the partisans quite harshly. The relevant paragraph says
Il giorno seguente, 28 aprile, dopo il trasferimento a Bonzanigo di Mezzegra, sul lago di Como, Mussolini e la Petacci furono assassinati dai partigiani tramite fucilazione, secondo la versione diffusa a Giulino di Mezzegra, sebbene su Clara non pendesse alcuna condanna. La versione ufficiale, e anche alcune versioni alternative, affermano che venne uccisa perché si oppose all'esecuzione di Mussolini, frapponendosi tra il Duce e gli assassini , ma soprattutto per sadismo (come testimoniano le sevizie sessuali commesse dai partigiani sul suo corpo dopo l'assassinio) e per eliminare una testimone scomoda.
Basically it's saying that she tried to keep Mussolini from being shot, and they shot her for that, but also for sadistic sexual motives, and to eliminate a witness. And that they did sexual things to her body after she as dead. There is a reference, to a Professor Pierluigi Baima Bollone, about whom I have no other information beyond a Google search. I would be interested to know how well-established these claims are. --Trovatore (talk) 22:20, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
It looks like the sexual stuff may be nonsense. It was added in this diff last October, without changing the cite. There is a complaint on the talk page about how the book doesn't say that. Google Books won't let me see the key paragraph, so I can't quite tell, but in any case the claim is suspect. I'm going to remove it from the Italian article. --Trovatore (talk) 08:07, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Despots sometimes get back what they gave, as it were. The Romanian guy and his wife are another example. Qadaffi is another one. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:49, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Well, Elena Ceaușescu can hardly have been surprised that she would share her husband's fate. She certainly shared all his fame. Per our article, she was deputy prime minister, had a personality cult, got a PhD in chemistry based on work that was almost certainly done by others and which she probably didn't understand. Petacci doesn't seem quite comparable (even if one historian described her as having "Nazi rigor", she doesn't seem to have been publicly involved the way that EC was). --Trovatore (talk) 23:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Yea, that whole family was a nasty bit of work. StuRat (talk) 23:15, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I read in one book that Clara wanted to die with Mussolini and that when encouraged to back off during his shooting, she instead chose to stand alongside him and was ultimately shot too. This says that "according to Mario Cervi, a revolutionary committee, made up of Leo Valiani, Luigi Longo..., Sandro Pertini and Emilio Sereni" ordered only Mussolini's execution, not Clara's. Brandmeistertalk 11:43, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Passing a bill vs. implementing a bill (US)[edit]

While trying to wrap my head around the US healthcare bill, MACRA, I noticed that it passed in 2015, but that the details on its implementation (how doctors would actually be reimbursed) weren't released until well over a year later – after much deliberation. Now I'm trying to wrap my head around THAT, (little embarrassed I didn't know how this is how things worked).

I'm not even sure about the basic terminology for this process. Is it a common political tactic in the US to push a vague bill through, and then fill in more polarizing details later? Are there any good articles on this? Any help would be great – thanks!

AlfonseStompanato (talk) 22:47, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Is it a common political tactic in the US to push a vague bill through, and then fill in more polarizing details later? Yup, except the "filling in" is done not by Congress, but by agencies of the executive branch. Congress basically passes a law saying, "We want X. Agencies A, B, and C are hereby tasked with implementing and overseeing the effort to do X." Here's a good summary from CrashCourse U.S. Government and Politics. Some relevant articles: Primary and secondary legislation, Rulemaking, Administrative law, United States administrative law. -- (talk) 23:02, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
See also enabling legislation. (talk) 12:56, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
It also happens with with laws requiring states to do work. For example (staying in the health care field), each state implements Medicare. Federal Congress passes a law stating that all Medicare programs must do X. They don't tell the states how to do X or how to pay for X. They just say that every state must do it. MACRA is a Medicare reimbursement law aimed at shrinking the number of organizations providing health care for Medicare patients. Every year, they will take a very substantial amount of money away from the worst organizations and give it to the best organizations (they get to define what "worst" and "best" means). The worst ones suffer financially and get bought out by the best ones until there are just a couple very large health organizations left in the nation. Of course, this is all centered on Medicare and only Medicare. Only about 15% of patients are on Medicare (but most of fraudulent claims are through Medicare - so those criminals will likely suffer). (talk) 15:01, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

celebrity endorsements on politicians[edit]

I notice that in US, celebrities regardless they are actors, actresses, singers, and musicians endorses any candidates who is running for the presidential nomination of a political party like Danny DeVito endorsed Bernie Sanders to be the Democratic nominee but in France, I see that the candidates of the presidential election don't get endorsements from celebrities. Why? Is it against the law of election that a celebrity endorsing a politician running for presidency? Donmust90 (talk) 23:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)Donmust90Donmust90 (talk) 23:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

There were all kinds of celebrity endorsements of presidential candidates in 2016. For example, Scott Baio and Ted Nugent supported Trump. And they go way back. Sammy Davis Jr. supported Nixon (don't ask why). Babe Ruth supported Al Smith. It's very common. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:42, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
I think you misread the Q. It's why celebrities don't endorse politicians in other nations. One possibility is that they fear government retribution. Not sure about France, but in Russia if you fall afoul of the ruling elite, you may be arrested on trumped up charges, or even killed. Auditing taxes might be a less drastic way to harass anyone the government doesn't like. StuRat (talk) 00:49, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Oops, you're right. In any case, here's an article about some celebrity endorsements in the French campaign.[33]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:47, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
We have a law against it in Canada, which doesn't exactly work. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:28, April 27, 2017 (UTC)
Hypothesis: For each country, celebrity endorsements reflect the nature and relative significance of such celebrities (e.g. performance arts) in a nation's culture. Compare the media coverage before vs during presidential election campaigns. Consider that this might indicate USA interest in celebrities per se and the political content is secondary. For a European example, prior to the Dec. 4, 2016 Austrian presidential elections, Conchita Wurst encouraged voters to support inclusive and liberal values, with the candidate's name mentioned only at the end. -- Deborahjay (talk) 05:32, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Maybe they do, but you don't know enough French celebrities or read the French-speaking media to identify any. This is just an assumption on my part. No offence intended regarding your level of knowledge on French celebrities or language! Bear in mind though that both U.S. politics and celebrities are followed by the whole world, which explains why so many people worldwide may know, for example, that Ellen DeGeneres is a big Obama fan, that Kelsey Grammer is a Republican, just by being a fan of these celebrities, whether or not they follow U.S. politics. In the UK, celebrities can and do support various politicians. Here are some I recall (which may have changed!): Sean Connery supports the SNP, Carol Vorderman supports the Conservatives, Daniel Radcliffe supports the Liberal Democrats, Patrick Stewart is a Labour supporter, and so is Lily Allen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 08:46, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

From a Greek perspective, it is more likely for the celebrity himself/herself to get directly involved in politics.

  • Mikis Theodorakis, the famous composer, was a symbol of persecuted leftists for several decades and many of his musical works were political in nature. He was elected MP several times (1981-1986, 1989-1993), and served as a government minister from 1990-1992. He is considered rather controversial for switching parties. In the 1980s, he was an MP for the Communist Party of Greece, while in the 1990s he became an MP and minister for New Democracy (a liberal-conservative party that has served as the major force of the right-wing since the 1970s).
  • Melina Mercouri, the famous actress, was known during the Greek junta for her political activism. She then became a politician for PASOK (the Socialist party, representing the center-left), got elected MP several times, and served as a government minister from 1981 to 1989, and from 1993 to her death in 1994.
  • Thanos Mikroutsikos, the famous composer and song-writer, was known for his political activism and his support of Maoism in the 1970s. He joined PASOK in the 1990s, served as a deputy government minister from 1993 to 1994, and as government minister from 1994 to 1996.
  • Liana Kanelli, a famous TV journalist known for her polemic style while speaking, became a politician for the Communist Party of Greece in the 2000s. She keeps getting elected MP non-stop since 2000. She is considered something of a public face for the party, though she is the only openly religious MP in a party mostly composed of atheists.
  • Kostas Karras, a famous actor who was in the spotlight from the 1960s to the 1990s, became a politician for New Democracy in the 2000s. He was elected MP from 2000 to 2007.

There are several other actors, musicians, sportspeople, journalists, and writers who got elected or were political candidates, but these are the most notable I could remember. I am not certain whether former MP Georgios Karatzaferis counts as a celebrity. He is a former advertising executive, who has served as a journalist, media owner, and book writer. But he is much more famous as a politician. (Though to be honest, his ideas are not all that original. Jews/Israel are behind every major disaster (including 9/11), there was no Holocaust, Auschwitz and Dachau are myths, etc. Just the kind of crap your average right-winger keeps parroting. ) Dimadick (talk) 09:19, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Before Tony Halme was a Finnish MP, he was part of "The Foreign Fanatics", who battled "The All Americans". In that spirit, I'll namedrop Antonio Inoki, The Great Sasuke, Ken Dryden and Nikolai Volkoff (he ran in a Maryland district, and lost, but still counts). InedibleHulk (talk) 11:28, April 27, 2017 (UTC)
In Canada there was also Lionel Conacher and Red Kelly for hockey player politicians. And I suppose Kevin O'Leary counts as a celebrity if not a politician... Adam Bishop (talk) 17:23, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Regarding France, the OP's premise is wrong. A number of celebrities endorse candidates. See here [34], although it's fewer than elsewhere. [35]. The second article claims that a growing cynicism regarding political practices in France is likely to blame. --Xuxl (talk) 12:33, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

April 27[edit]

Are there cultures/countries where people don't sniff flowers?[edit]

This is the time of year (Northern hemisphere) where I indulge myself in the pleasure of sniffing flowers. While my appreciation for many is the same as anyone's, I additionally make a point to sniff less-popular flowers such as those on common trees that occasionally seem to evoke sneezes or a sense of irritation; this is because it is my personal suspicion that flower sniffing is not a cultural practice or merely an idle, spontaneous pleasure, but a true instinct meant to induce immunological tolerance to pollen, and that the perception of floral scents as pleasant might be an adaptation to further it. Now while I haven't been in a good position to study the matter biologically, it occurs to me that a counter-example is possible based simply on known cultures: if the practice is a true instinct, there should not be any culture where it is unknown, though it is possible (like nose-picking) that there are many where it is intentionally suppressed. So... can you think of any such cultures? Wnt (talk) 00:32, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I find most flowers to smell like cheap perfume. That is, not at all subtle. So, I don't generally sniff them. I find food-related herbal scents more pleasant, like vanilla and mint. I am male, and somewhat suspect that the perception of flowers is gender-specific, and many men also find most flowers unpleasant smelling. This might explain why men don't like smelling like them, but women do. Interestingly, dogs seem to share this contempt for floral scents, and will roll in anything to get rid of it. StuRat (talk) 00:55, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
". . . many men also find most flowers unpleasant smelling. This might explain why men don't like smelling like [sic] them, . . ." News to this 60-y-o male – I've never encountered this proposition before now, though of course some individuals may dislike particular flower scents. If true this would be an interesting sex-based phenomenon, so could you direct us to some citations? {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 05:07, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Note that, in the US at least, different scents are sold for men than women, containing things like musk rather than floral scents. This is why scented products, like perfume and deodorant, are rarely unisex. StuRat (talk) 15:04, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Of course, because men and women have different preferences for what their opposite sex should smell like, and scent themselves accordingly, but that has nothing to do with whether or not men enjoy the scent of flowers. Indeed, if female perfumes are "floral", it suggests that men do like floral scents. I'm still waiting for your Reliable Sources demonstrating that "many men . . . find most flowers unpleasant smelling."— Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 18:56, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Women don't just like floral scents in perfume, but also in cleaning products, etc., that the men don't smell: [36]. That site says that women prefer a variety of single-note fragrances, while men prefer spicy or complex scents. I wonder if the food-related scents I mentioned, like mint and vanilla, fit in the latter category. StuRat (talk) 15:20, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
You're misrepresenting your own source which is actually not only not supporting your claim but debunking it:
" are typically attracted to complex floral and spicy fragrances, women to simple, single-note fragrances."
--TMCk (talk) 15:38, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
I didn't misrepresent it at all. Read down further to where it talks about scented products being preferred by women: "By nature, women are a more interested, hence larger and more renewable segment of the market for scented items of all kinds. It is easier and more profitable to sell scents to women than men." Note that "of all kinds" includes floral scents. StuRat (talk) 16:33, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Contrary to your personal believe that you presented as fact, men do like floral scents and your own source that you've now provided confirms your mistake. It's as simple as that.--TMCk (talk) 17:27, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Floral scents bear a relation to the state of the natural world, and not only the state of the flower producing the scent, but to the overall biological environment. I think we should not be so narrowly focussed on whether or not we like a given scent but rather we should be focussed on the amount of information that all scents of biological origin provide for us, potentially at least. A person living close to nature could potentially find clues in prevailing scents to other biological phenomena that may be taking place in other areas of the environment. Bus stop (talk) 01:30, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Sure, and smelling fruit to see if it's ripe makes sense, but what valuable info do we gain from smelling flowers ? StuRat (talk) 02:15, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
You or I might not be able to determine anything from smelling flowers, but a person attuned to the signals and cues of the natural world would be able to deduce the status of various other biological processes in other organisms as well as the state of or the past history of the non-biological natural world. I can't give you examples but we know that in an ecosystem there are interrelationships between organisms as well as effects of for instance recent weather conditions. Flowering may take place earlier or later in the season depending on temperature and water availability or scarcity. Obviously temperature and water availability would have impact on other organisms as well. Modern humans may have little awareness of and sensibilities to the natural world. But people more integrated into the natural world would understand aspects of the ecosystem from the olfactory signals from for instance flowers. Bus stop (talk) 03:42, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Never noticed Inuit smelling flowers in this part of the country. That is not because we don't have flowers there, are plenty and here and some are edible. Of course this area Victoria Island (Canada) is just a small part of where Inuit/Eskimos live so elsewhere in Nunavut, Greenland, Northwest Territories, Alaska and Russia people may well smell them. Now I'm curious for spring/summer to arrive so I can actually find out if they do smell. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 05:16, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Aside from cultures living in climate inhospitable to flowers (Far North), I found this, p. 336-337: "The Dhammapada makes it clear that flowers, like other beautiful objects, are potential temptations or distractions. Mara the tempter lets fly a flower-pointed arrow, a notion borrowed from Kama... More explicitly, it is written, 'Death carries off a man who is gathering flowers and whose mind is distracted, as a flood carries off a sleeping village". Brandmeistertalk 11:31, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
The reference is to "gathering flowers" while the question posed concerns the olfactory relationship to flowers. Or at least that is my interpretation of the question. It should be noted that some flowers can be edible, therefore the cautionary note concerning gathering flowers seems questionable. The reference is to idly enjoying flowers. But I think that knowledge of the environment is anything but frivolous to people who live immersed in nature. Flowering plants provide such human inhabitants with important information that can increase the possibility of survival in an ecological niche. Bus stop (talk) 13:45, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Huh. Someone has actually written a Cultural History of Smell (apparently also at [37]). You will have to read it, though, to find out if they mention a culture that avoids flowers. (talk) 14:46, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Flowers evolved pleasant scents to attract pollinators (citation needed). I expect it's a happy coincidence that bees and people both enjoy sweet foods, so what smells good to bees also smells good to humans. At high elevations (I think above 10,000 feet, it's been a few years since I heard the ranger talk at Rocky Mountain National Park), there aren't many bees, the main pollinators are flies, and the flowers smell like rotten meat. So you might look at regions of high elevation for cultures that don't enjoy sniffing flowers.--Wikimedes (talk) 15:32, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
I don't think it's a coincidence that bees and people both like sugar. Sugar is quick source of energy, so any animal that can digest it is likely to seek it out. Too much sugar is bad, of course, but it's difficult to get too much in the conditions in which we evolved. StuRat (talk) 16:30, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Of course. The coincidence is that the scent that was evolved to attract bees also attracts other organisms, in this case humans. Was that not clear? Or perhaps you think that the underlying reasons for this coincidence are relevant to OP's question?--Wikimedes (talk) 20:09, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
I took "I expect it's a happy coincidence that bees and people both enjoy sweet foods" to mean exactly that. StuRat (talk) 21:16, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Fair enough.--Wikimedes (talk) 02:35, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

WWII maps[edit]

I'm looking for maps produced in 1941-1943 that's similar to this one[38]. Specially I'm looking from ones from the allied countries and ones from Nazi Germany. I want to compare and contrast how the different countries and territories are labeled.

Presumably all the allied countries would still use the original country name and original borders since they don't recognize the Axis power's illegal occupation. ECS LIVA Z (talk) 01:45, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I believe the Nazis did keep most of their conquered nations intact, so the names would be the same, except in German. Exceptions were for regions they annexed, like Czechoslovakia, part of Poland, and part of France. See Areas annexed by Nazi Germany. You might also be interested in Generalplan Ost, their eventual plan for Eastern Europe. StuRat (talk) 02:19, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, the Nazi side is of great interest to me as well. Did they 1. label the original country names, 2. label it by the administrations like in [39] (Reichskommissariat Ukraine, Reichskommissariat Ostland, etc), or 3. label the entire thing "Deutsches Reich"?
I see lots of reproduction maps both on Wikipedia and elsewhere on the internet, but I have not found a single clearly labeled map from 1941-1943 so far. ECS LIVA Z (talk) 03:14, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
The Category:German exonyms and its included lists will be useful to you. I'd suggest reviewing and familiarizing yourself with the names in regions of interest even before you study the related map. -- Deborahjay (talk) 05:36, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

"I believe the Nazis did keep most of their conquered nations intact"

With the Axis occupation of Greece, the intentions of the three occupying powers (Germany, Italy, Bulgaria) were different.

  • The German occupation zone was supposed to be occupied for the duration of the war, and then controlled through puppet governments. No plans for annexation. The puppet government was called the Hellenic State.
  • Italian leadership disagreed about what to do with the Italian occupation zone, though there were plans for the post-war annexation of at least part of the area. Epirus was supposed to be annexed by the Italian-controlled Albania.
  • Bulgaria pretty much declared the Bulgarian occupation zone to be fully annexed, using as a pretext its territorial claims in the area from the Balkan Wars. It led a campaign of Bulgarization of the local population, banned the use of the Greek language, and deported the supposed representatives of Greek authority (mayors, landowners, industrialists, school-teachers, judges, lawyers, priests, Hellenic Gendarmerie officers). Much of the property of the Greek population was confiscated and granted to Bulgarian peasants, and settlers from Bulgaria were brought in the area. Dimadick (talk) 09:59, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Here's one of Central/Eastern Europe: [40]. According to the website I found it on it's from a 1941 book called "Landvolk im Werden" (‘The people's country in the process of formation’). The arrows represent (proposed) plans to resettle Germans to annexed Poland. Interestingly occupied Western Europe is marked as if they were fully independent countries. Alcherin (talk) 10:47, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
That's because Germany's aims were not necessarily to take over all of Europe, but rather to re-establish what they saw as Germany's natural borders (see German Question for some historical background). In the west, this only really included Alsace-Lorraine, while in central and eastern Europe it included places like Austria, the Sudetenland, Baltic lands (formerly Teutonic States and Prussian lands), etc. At best, Germany intended friendly or puppet regimes in other countries, but intended them to be at least nominally independent. --Jayron32 11:03, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
There's a few contemporary maps linked on this site, such as [41]. Alcherin (talk) 12:00, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
See also Greater Germanic Reich. Alansplodge (talk) 12:42, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Has a fight stopped IRL for everyone to look at a rolling explosive or NCBR weapon then started the instant the danger passed?[edit]

That happened in a James Bond movie or Operation Condor or something. A chemical weapons container or bomb is dislodged by the kung fu and everyone stops what they're hitting to watch it roll. The instant it hits the wall intact everyone starts fighting again. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:49, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I doubt it's been more than a TV Trope. Either with an NCBR, CBRN, NBC, ABC or NRBQ. In a serious fight between trained badasses, the first one to stop and look away generally dies. Chins should stay down, hands up and eyes forward. Less serious fights between average Joes are more likely to allow timeouts, but typically don't take place around Bond-level weapons. More usually letting mundane common threats like cars, cops or teachers pass. Sometimes just a moment to catch a breath. There are systems in place to ensure normal goons don't guard very important things. These systems would make for terribly boring action movies. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:29, April 27, 2017 (UTC)

Jane Eyre and missionaries to India[edit]

In Jane Eyre, there was that guy -- St. John Eyre Rivers. I know India has a lot of Hindus, but there are the St. Thomas Christians in India. The St. Thomas Christians claim to be descended spiritually from Thomas the Apostle. So, did British people know about the St. Thomas Christians or the fact that Christianity had already spread to India by one of the original followers of Jesus? (talk) 13:31, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

The Portuguese already knew about them in the 16th century, but had an ambiguous attitude towards them (as "Latin rite" Catholics generally did towards non-Catholic Christians from other traditions). AnonMoos (talk) 13:51, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Christianity in India mentions some British missionaries to India, but they all seemed to be working in areas far removed from Kerala, which is where the St. Thomas Christians are mostly from. Which is not to say they didn't know of them. --Jayron32 14:00, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Saint Thomas Christians#British period has some good information. --Jayron32 14:01, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, the British knew. For example, here is a published description from 1845, two years before the publication of Jane Eyre. The author refers to the Kerala Christians as the Syrian Church, and condescendingly (missionarysplaining?) describes them as "corrupt" and "having many errors in doctrine and superstitions in practice". Anyway, have a read; the text reveals the missionary attitudes, and by this account Anglican/Protestant missionaries had been aware of this group since at least 1806. (talk) 14:29, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
There was a significant difference in the missionary approach to the St Thomas Christians: while the aim was to convert Hindus and Muslims to the Christian faith, they sought to reform the ancient Syriac church to bring it into agreement with (in particular) the Church of England. This resulted in the Mar Thoma Syrian Church, which separated in the 19th century. There are other groups which moved closer to the Roman Catholic Church, while some retained their ancient traditions. There are now eight different churches within the family - Saint Thomas Christian denominations Wymspen (talk) 15:51, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Biography of the Black Duke[edit]

I'm looking for an English language biography of Frederick William, Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel, known as the "Black Duke", a remarkable character who was an ally of the British during the Napoleonic War and was killed in action on the day before Waterloo. I found one for his father, Charles William Ferdinand, Duke of Brunswick: An Historical Study, 1735-1806 and one about the man himself Der Schwarze Herzog: Friedrich Wilhelm von Braunschweig-Oels, but it's in German, my knowledge of which is derived solely from the pages of The Victor. Alansplodge (talk) 20:12, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

There's a good bit about him in Childe Harold's Pilgrimage, but hardly what you are looking for. DuncanHill (talk) 14:52, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Got it: "Within a window'd niche of that high hall / Sate Brunswick's fated chieftain; he did hear / That sound the first amidst the festival, / And caught its tone with Death's prophetic ear; / And when they smiled because he deem'd it near, / His heart more truly knew that peal too well / Which stretch'd his father on a bloody bier, / And roused the vengeance blood alone could quell: / He rush'd into the field, and, foremost fighting, fell". Alansplodge (talk) 20:29, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

April 28[edit]

Are people supposed to order several things at a restaurant at different times or at one time?[edit]

In a restaurant, there is a list of courses - appetizer, main course, side course, dessert, and drinks. Are people really supposed to order the appetizer before the main course and then order the dessert at the end? Or are people supposed to order one from each category in the beginning and the plates will be delivered from appetizer to dessert? (talk) 14:11, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

This video goes through the process step by step. If there is an event there that doesn't make sense to you, we can try to provide you additional resources. --Jayron32 14:15, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Just in case you can't be bothered to watch an eight-minute video to get the answer to your question, here it is. You order the appetizer (I normally prefer to call it starter) and the main course at the same time. Unless you tell the waiter differently, you'll be brought the starter(s) first. When everyone at the table has finished their starter, those plates will be cleared and the waiter will bring the main courses. If you want dessert, you will be given the menu again once you've finished your main course. --Viennese Waltz 14:21, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
There is no hard and fast rule. VW's post is correct for most restaurants but I have eaten at some that have separate menus for apps, entrees/sides and desserts with each being brought to the table at the appropriate time. MarnetteD|Talk 14:42, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Etiquette will vary somewhat depending on local culture as well. For Cantonese restaurants (not the best of Wiki articles), you'd order what type of tea you'd like, and then everything else at once. Alcherin (talk) 14:44, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
You could order drinks, appetizer, main course, and dessert all at once from a prix fixe menu. It seems like we always did that in France, although it was confusing at first because I've never ordered like that in Canada (or the US). Adam Bishop (talk) 15:05, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
(US) It's common to order drinks first, while you read the menu and decide on the rest (or while at the bar waiting to be seated). Those drinks can just be water, possibly with lemon. Of course, if everyone knows what they want, they can order right away. However, I've noticed a problem that the person who seats you sometimes asks what drinks you want, even though they are not your regular waiter or waitress. They would then pass that info on to them. However, if you try to give them your full order they will stop you and say they will get the waiter/waitress, instead.
The reason to wait until the end to order dessert or anything to go is that otherwise they may prepare it too soon, so the desert will have melted and the to go order will be cold, by the time you are ready for it. You can order these in advance, but tell them to wait to prepare them until the end, but they may well ignore you. StuRat (talk) 16:23, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
In France it's exactly as follows (I do this a lot). First they ask you if you'd like a drink. You can have the drink at the bar or at your table. Amuse-bouches may be served with the drinks. When they bring the drinks they ask if you're ready to order the food. You order the starter and main course. Sometimes you are also asked to order the dessert at that point if it has to be cooked to order. After the main course you are asked if you want cheese, which may be included in the menu. Then you are asked about dessert. After dessert you are asked if you want coffees, which may be served with petits-fours. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:56, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
(ex)"The reason", if there is one, is that you may actually be full after the entree ;-). And as a matter of etiquette, if you are invited, you should let the host order first and scale your order accordingly - if the host orders a just a Hamburger and a coke, it might be inappropriate to have bruschetta, salmon carpaccio, lobster, a lemon sorbet, and the filet mignon... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:58, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
The host should see to his guests before himself. (UK) DuncanHill (talk) 10:15, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
"I'll just have a small side of spaghetti ... but instead of meatballs, put a couple lobsters on top." StuRat (talk) 21:08, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
The dessert can also be ordered to go, if you are full. And I find that if I have certain tastes in my mouth after the meal, like garlic, then something with fat, like ice cream, can help to reduce it. StuRat (talk) 21:10, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
I've never seen pudding ordered to take away in a British restaurant. DuncanHill (talk) 10:15, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Am I the only one that does not order dessert at the same time so that I can go to another restaurant with a better selection? A restaurant in Yellowknife has an excellent Chinese buffet (and the only place that servers liver (food)). However, their desserts are only OK and come directly from the supermarket. I can buy President's Choice myself if that is what I want. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 01:58, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

When does time fly or drag??[edit]

I always thought that time goes by slowly when you're waiting for something exciting, but quickly when you're dreaded about an unwanted event. The following URL, however, says that time goes by slowly in both of these cases:

Any opinions anyone has about these?? If possible, please include links to the appropriate Wikipedia articles. Georgia guy (talk) 14:42, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Time perception#Effects of emotional states may be helpful. Loraof (talk) 15:25, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
I'd also note that sometimes I myself have different time perception for no apparent reason. On one day, for example, I feel that minutes pass faster than "normally", and on another day slower. This in turn forces me to do something faster or slower than I used to to be on time. Brandmeistertalk 18:45, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Is owning a human automatically slavery?[edit]

Humans already own dogs and cats. But they treat their beloved pooches and kitties with affection. The pets are fed, watered, sheltered, and played with. In return, the pets offer protection and companionship. But they are still owned. Humans also pay a fee for the adoption of human children, which goes to pay for the adoption agency's services and to show that they are sincere parents who will provide a loving home for the child. If Human 1 wants Human 2, but Human 2 belongs to Human 3, then Human 1 can ask Human 3 if Human 3 is willing to transact Human 2 in exchange for materials. If Human 3 is willing, then the transaction is made, but Human 1 must keep a promise to Human 3 to treat Human 2 with kindness, because Human 2 is biologically related to Human 3. There is money involved in all these cases. Can one human "own" another in an arrangement that is not slavery? Or is the concept of owning a human life automatically slavery? (talk) 14:56, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes. Owning a human is slavery, by definition.
However, you may be interested in reading about the concept of "benevolent slavery". Here's a good article that covers this strange but pragmatic practice as it occurred in pre-civil war USA. Needless to say it was an artifact of the oppression that existed at that time. In a just society there wouldn't normally be a motivation to have such an arraignment. ApLundell (talk) 15:07, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
You seem to be equating adoption, or parenting, with "ownership." That is not the case. --Golbez (talk) 15:13, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
That depends on the culture and time period. In some places and times the parents (usually just the father) did literally own the children, and could do whatever they wanted with them. StuRat (talk) 16:13, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
There is a difference between slavery, parenting, and contracts, and you seem to be conflating most of these. While all three can confer obligations and rights by one person over another, they are sufficiently distinct that you should not consider them even remotely equivalent. --Jayron32 15:45, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
How are they different? A slave master can abuse the slave. A parent can abuse the child. And a pet owner can abuse the pet. If the pet or child or slave is abused, then the owner can be deprived of property by government action. (talk) 15:48, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
You're allowed to read those articles. No one here is preventing you from doing so and learning about those concepts yourself. If there is a statement made in one of those articles that you do not understand, we can provide you with additional references that may clarify it. --Jayron32 16:04, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
But the first sentence says that "any system in which principles of property law are applied to people, allowing individuals to own, buy and sell other individuals, as a de jure form of property". Then, you see "Scholars also use the more generic terms such as unfree labour or forced labour, to refer to such situations." So, a slave is a human that is bought and sold to do work. If there is no forced work involved, then a human can be bought and sold for another human's pleasure like a pet? A non-human animal that is forced to do work is called a draft animal. So, a draft animal is essentially a non-human "slave", but it's not a "slave", because in order to be a slave, you have to be a member of the Homo sapiens species. (talk) 16:52, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
You seem to have missed, misunderstood, or ignored the word "also" in the sentence you just quoted.
In any case, If you'd read the article I linked above, you'd know that slavery does not necessarily involve forced labor. ApLundell (talk) 17:26, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
But I still don't get why so many humans nowadays think that the idea of owning a human is a horrible idea, when non-human animals are already owned. If non-human animals are not forced to do labor, then they are considered a pet or companion animal. Keeping a companion animal is regarded as a sign of compassion, because leaving it on the streets is careless. Apparently, the reverse is true for human ownership. Buying a human and taking care of it is slavery. It is not interpreted as a sign of compassion at all. What if the human just wants to be fed and clothed and doesn't mind living in a prison cell? In that case, is slavery only wrong because the slaves themselves are actively resisting the power? If the slaves or draft animals don't resist, then does that mean that they are not enslaved? (talk) 18:11, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps your misconception is due to the fact that you've never been introduced to the concept of human rights. That should provide you with additional reading. If there are sentences or passages or words (like "also", which you misunderstood above) that we can help you with, let us know. --Jayron32 18:18, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
I was reading the article you linked me on the history of human rights. I have another question. Here it is: "17th-century English philosopher John Locke discussed natural rights in his work, identifying them as being "life, liberty, and estate (property)", and argued that such fundamental rights could not be surrendered in the social contract." Yeah, I know it says the fundamental rights "could not be surrendered". But will anything bad happen if those "fundamental rights" are surrendered or taken away? Humans already assume that non-human animals are property, but they take care of them and get them to do work. And humans are benefitting from controlling the lives and genes of plants and animals. Plants and non-human animals apparently have no rights. But somehow, for some reason, certain individuals that are close to humans in the phylogenetic tree have "rights". (talk) 19:43, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
One of the most fervent animal-rights groups (and even plant-rights) is the Jains, so you might read up on them. StuRat (talk) 19:51, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Huh. Apparently, some humans take the side that animals and plants have "rights", instead of taking the side that some individuals just hold relative dominance over others, and the dominance is justified, because being the winner is better than being the loser. The loser has to submit, die, or move elsewhere. If the loser can't move elsewhere, then the loser will perish. In the case of slavery, if all the slaves just kill themselves, then the slave masters will not be slave masters anymore. How can you be a master when there is no slave? (talk) 20:51, 28 April 2017 (UTC), these reference desks are intended for referenced fact finding and referral to appropriate further references and resources, not as forums for philosophical debate, exercises in logic-chopping, and explorations of unrealistic hypotheticals. It is perfectly obvious from your many queries in recent weeks on a wide variety of topics that you are intelligent and educated, though perhaps relatively inexperienced in some aspects of the world (youth is a self-correcting defect), and cannot be really misunderstanding what the other responders have already said above. Please stop yanking our chains. {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 21:13, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
I searched for "logic chopping". And I found this. I have to admit, I can totally relate to Paul and Bart. But I also admit that sometimes I fail to distinguish "logic chopping" and "critical thought". I thank you for providing me with that term. At least I am aware of this behavior. (talk) 03:25, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
  • I have to second this. has posted a large number of very bizarre and/or naive questions, which no one who has lived on this planet for any length of time could actually need answers to, or expect to get reliable references for. [42][43][44][45][46][47][48] I would like to assume good faith, but it certainly seems like most of these questions are just intended to stir up debate rather than to get factual answers. CodeTalker (talk) 22:17, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
I think you are cherry-picking some of my contributions to support your views. [49][50][51][52][53][54][55] Here are 7 examples that do not support your views. I usually keep a stockpile of questions in my head, because I tend to ask questions about the things around me in much greater frequency than other people. I think other people take this habit of mine as "debating", as if I am supporting some kind of alternative view passionately. No, I have no passion to advocate any view. Actually, I also tend to question my own views all too often. I think other people take this habit of mine as a bit asinine. (talk) 23:09, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Talking about providing references: There are pretty good lectures on these kind of questions online. I really like OpenYale, in particular PHIL 181, PLSC 114, PLSC 118 and SOCY 151, all accessible from this page. Also, Michael J. Sandels Justice is available from Harvard (in theory) and On YouTube in reality. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:23, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Abraham Lincoln - August 1, 1858: "As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy. Whatever differs from this, to the extent of the difference, is not democracy." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:41, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Childe Harold[edit]

Is there any connection between Byron's Childe Harold and the Childe Harold who disembowelled his horse and hid inside the carcass to escape a Dartmoor blizzard (he died anyway - full story here)? Alansplodge (talk) 21:56, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Interesting, I've not heard him called Harold before, I'm familiar with Childe's Tomb. DuncanHill (talk) 01:12, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks DuncanHill, it seems that the story-teller was getting in a confusion. It was indeed just "Childe", see Devonshire Folk Tales. Alansplodge (talk) 07:37, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
I just looked it up in William Crossing's Guide to Dartmoor - he says of Childe the Hunter "Childe does not seem to have been a proper name, though some writers not only apparently think it was, but have gone so far as to furnish the supposed hunter with another - indeed, he has had no less than three Christian names given to him, Amyas, John, and Oswald. In all probability it was the Saxon Cild, a common appellation". Cild we have an article on at Childe, and this is the Childe part of Childe Harold. Crossing gives a fuller account of the tomb and the legend in his Ancient Stone Crosses of Dartmoor, but alas I do not yet have a copy. DuncanHill (talk) 10:24, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

April 29[edit]

Taxes and Tax Return[edit]

I have read the article unreported employment. But I still want to know how the government finds out that I owe the government money. For most of my life, I earned pocket change through unreported employment or under-the-table employment. Only recently, I became formally employed. Does the government only care about my formally employment history? If I fill out one of those tax return forms and drop it in the mailbox at the post office, then how does the government examine the tax information from millions of citizens? Between the day of sending in the tax return form and the day of receiving the tax return, how many days are there? Are tax returns sent into my mailbox? What if someone looks into my mail and steals my tax return? Is it safer to overestimate my taxes than underestimate? If I dig into a landfill or dumpster and find valuable items like unspoiled food or discarded clothes, then do I have to count them as "taxable income", or am I allowed to keep them for my personal living? (talk) 02:27, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

A few of your questions are possibly answerable here, but some appear to be requests for financial and/or legal advice and/or opinion. My advice to you is to not listen to the advice of random strangers on the internet. Consult an accountant or someone else qualified to answer you, such as someone who prepares tax returns professionally. Matt Deres (talk) 03:51, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
The tax authorities are not interested in food or clothing that you find, regardless of whether you acquired them with permission or without. Casual employment should always be reported to tax authorities on your tax return (though I cannot advise on whether or not the authorities have any way to find out if you fail to report). As Matt says above, if you are talking about significant amounts then you need to consult a professional. Dbfirs 07:33, 29 April 2017 (UTC)


April 23[edit]

Plural of "mail"[edit]

According to Wiktionary (and at least one WP article), the plural of mail (noun) is mails. As a native US English speaker, this seems absurd. I would never say "today's mails consisted of two letters and a parcel". Am I missing something? 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:984A:CA94:A2BD:E53B (talk) 03:14, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Mail in the sense you're thinking of is an uncountable mass noun. This seems to be meanings 3 and 6 in the Wiktionary entry. Meaning 6 is marked as uncountable and "chiefly US", but no clear distinction is made from meaning 3, and I agree with you that it would be very strange to use that as a count noun.
There are definitely count senses, though, especially in the context of e-mail. --Trovatore (talk) 03:19, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
What I was missing was familiarity with the term 'uncountable mass noun'. I'll read that article. In the meantime: is it just me, or does "Experimental airmails", "Scheduled Air Mails", etc., in the Airmails of the United States sound odd? --Thanks for the link, 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:984A:CA94:A2BD:E53B (talk) 03:30, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
It does sound odd, I agree. I'm speculating, but I think this might be an attempt to extend the idiom "the mails", meaning the postal system, as in offenses like "sending dangerous materials through the mails". I don't recall ever hearing the extension to "the airmails". --Trovatore (talk) 03:34, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Oddly enough, "emails" is considered normal usage. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:47, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
I mentioned that in my first response, though I insist on the hyphen. --Trovatore (talk) 03:48, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Oops, sorry. The hyphen seems to be used less and less. Hard to tell why. As regards the plural, I suspect the difference is that you mail a letter, whereas you send an e(-)mail. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:13, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Off topic, but since you ask: the progression from separate words to hyphenated to hyphenless forms is standard in English. See, to take a random example, seaweed. HenryFlower 13:00, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Or even closer to home (n'yuk, n'yuk) "base ball" to "base-ball" to "baseball". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
I don't recall coming across the mails meaning the postal system and wouldn't say "sending dangerous materials through the mails". 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:984A:CA94:A2BD:E53B (talk) 05:39, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Google has one hit for that particular phrase, and it's this page. :) But the general point is correct. HenryFlower 13:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
There is a now slightly archaic use of "the mails" as a term for the whole postal system |(in Merriam-Webster). A "mail" was also a train, ship, or coach used to deliver the post - so the Bristol Mail went daily from London to Bristol. In that sense the plural is possible - the mails went daily from London to various destinations round the country. Wymspen (talk) 14:42, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Try using Google's Advanced Book Search. In The Unconstitutionality of the Laws of Congress, Prohibiting Private Mails (Lysander Spooner, 1844), you will find "mails" mentioned numerous times. Also, Overland Mails to India, China, Etc: The Acceleration of Mails (Once a Fortnight) Between England and the East Indies and Vice Versa (Thomas Waghorn, 1843).
Also see ngram for the prevalence of the word mails over the past 200 years. —Stephen (talk) 17:22, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
The problem with that is it doesn't differentiate between the noun and the verb. 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:984A:CA94:A2BD:E53B (talk) 17:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Same with "post". "Different countries' posts" sounds more natural. (talk) 18:31, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

French "roselys"[edit]

I was looking at a recent article about a warship, French corvette Roselys, and was curious about the name. It was a originally a British Flower-class corvette; they were all named after flowers and this one began life as HMS Sundew before being lent to the Free French Navy. Other French Flower-class ships were renamed with the French translation of the same flower, hence HMS Aconite became the French corvette Aconit. Google wasn't very helpful with the translation of "sundew" into French, not a word used in everyday speech I suspect, but the French Wikipedia article Fr:Droséra (Drosera, the sundew family) gives "rossolis (du latin ros solis, la rosée du soleil)". Is "roselys" then a variant or archaic form of "rossolis"? Seems likely but a source might allow me to put it in the article. Alansplodge (talk) 18:42, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

No idea how relevant this is, but "rose" is rose and "lys" is lily. So there's a floral association in any event. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
But if the etymology quoted on the French Wikipedia is correct, the "lys" element is a false cognate. Alansplodge (talk) 09:09, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
It does indeed mean Rose-Lily - but as the given name of a girl, rather than as the name of a type of plant. Wymspen (talk) 10:03, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I did also find this (facebook site), but don't find it very conclusive: 'En français, la traduction littérale du Sundew (Drosera), la "Rosée du matin" était très poétique. Probablement pour ne pas être en reste de talent et d'humour avec ses collègues de l'Amirauté britannique, l'Amirauté française libre avait rebaptisé notre bâtiment du nom de Roselys, associant ainsi, poétiquement, la rose britannique et le lis français qui s'étaient opposés durant l'histoire.' Apparently quoted from Ni chagrin ni pitié : souvenirs d'un marin de la France libre by François Flohic (1985). (Admiral Flohic is not a linguist, but who knows?). The snippet can be read in context at Gallica's digital library here, page 26f (luckily it's included in the book's first 15% percent, as that's all Gallica displays). ---Sluzzelin talk 11:41, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks very much Sluzzelin, that'll do nicely. Alansplodge (talk) 17:23, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

@Alansplodge: It's also possible that the more "meaningful" in modern terms roselys is a folk etymology from rossolis, given solis is not meaningful in modern French. μηδείς (talk) 18:06, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

That was my thought too, but a supporting citation is conspicuous by its absence. Alansplodge (talk) 18:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I don't have a French etymological dictionary, but I assumed it was clear enough that nounnoun is not the usual way of forming compounds in French. In any case, my point was to bring up folk etymology, which had not been mentioned, not to claim I had solved a mystery. μηδείς (talk) 22:13, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks; I'm sure you have a valid point, but I needed something that I can put in the article. Alansplodge (talk) 11:52, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

April 24[edit]

English (UK) grammar[edit]

Hi everyone, brief grammar question for you. Is the sentence 'the earth and its mature is accessible to each and every one of us' grammatically correct in UK usage? I have been told the 'is' ought to be an 'are'. Neither sound particularly incorrect to me but I would tend towards my original option so I was hoping to get your opinion on this? Are there any relevant articles on Wikipedia (or elsewhere) I could read up on? Thanks very much in advance for your help. Bw, (talk) 08:37, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm a bit puzzled by "mature" which can be an adjective or a verb, but not a noun as far as I know. Alansplodge (talk) 09:13, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
It's obviously a typo for "nature", and "are" is correct. --Viennese Waltz 09:21, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
D'oh! Alansplodge (talk) 17:59, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

This is discussed (and examples given) by Otto Jespersen in "Part II: Syntax, First Volume" of his classic A Modern English Grammar on Historic Principles. In section 6.521, he says "if two or more subjects connected by means of and form one conception, the verb is put in the sg, as in Jevons L 289 Accuracy and precision is a more important quality of language than abundance." Of course, this is a limited exception to the general rule that would normally requite the plural verb (and it could be debatable which conjoined subject nouns form "one conception")... AnonMoos (talk) 10:02, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I would have thought that this would apply more to things like "the Rose and Crown is a nice pub". -- Q Chris (talk) 10:31, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Certainly in that case. But "the earth and its nature" is similar, in the sense that one cannot access the earth without also accessing its nature, and vice-versa. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 10:37, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Are they part of the same conception though? "The earth" is a physical thing, "its nature" is one of its attributes. It's not the same as "The man and his wife", it's more like "The man and his knowledge". (By the way, I have no idea what it means to access the earth, or its nature. Are we talking about an alien astronaut-philosopher?) --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:02, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Q_Chris -- that sentence involves the Use-mention distinction: you're not referring to a rose and a crown as separate objects at all, you're referring to a single entity (neither a rose nor a crown) which goes by the name of "the Rose and Crown". Similarly, you would say "The Simpsons is an entertaining cartoon" etc. AnonMoos (talk) 10:51, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Idiom rather than grammar, but referring to "the earth and its nature" reads a little oddly to this BrE speaker, even though it's not grammatically or factually wrong. English commonly refers to 'Nature', without 'the' and often capitalized, as an almost (or actually) personified concept, and also usually capitalizes 'Earth' when referring to the planet rather than to soil, and may optionally omit "the" as well. Consequently, the phrase "the earth and its nature is accessible . . . ." sounds like a referral to the characteristics of soil, perhaps in a particular place (see terroir). I suspect the OP's intended meaning would be better conveyed by "Earth and Nature are accessible . . . ." {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 01:16, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

April 25[edit]

"Write a check for a package of chewing gum"[edit]

What is the name for a cliché example used as a figure of speech, like "get hit by a truck" for dying young and unexpectedly, or "write a check for a package of chewing gum" for writing a check for trivial amoints, or "the trains run on time" to mean a society is orderly and punctual? Khemehekis (talk) 02:35, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Metaphor. Bus stop (talk) 02:37, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
This isn't really a helpful answer (sorry, Bus Stop). "All the world's a stage" and "to grasp a concept", to use two examples from the article, are metaphors, but they don't fall in this category. When someone says "get hit by a truck/bus", they're using one example of a way you could die an untimely death, but they don't literally mean it has to be that example (it could be some other way). What you have as a result is an example, a figure of speech and a cliché, all in one. Some other examples to make it clearer what I mean:
They'll get the kids to stand in line and stop swearing. (= Behave in an orderly manner)
Sen. Jordan was concerned that if 16-year-olds got the vote, politicians would promise them free ice craem. (= Make pandering campaign promises they cannot keep)
Prof. Schnurf lives and breathes science, but when you put him into the real world, he can barely tie his shoes. (= Accomplish elementary tasks that most people learn at a young age)
And another example with chewing gum: Joan expects me to walk and chew gum at the same time. (= Do two things that are difficult to do at once) (Although this last one may be more of a simple idiom than in the same category as the others.)
What I'm looking for is a term that covers only expressions like these.Khemehekis (talk) 04:52, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
I've never heard those expressions used like that. In what country are they found? CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 04:35, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
I live in Contra Costa County, California. Doing research on Google, I haven't been able to find any search engine hits for "write a check for a pack(age) of chewing gum", but we use it in spoken English here. Khemehekis (talk) 04:52, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Those aren't necessarily metaphors. I think the word Khemehekis used, cliché, is the best answer. Incidentally, "making the trains run on time" doesn't just mean making society orderly and punctual; it also means controlling it excessively. This is specifically a reference to Italy in the Fascist era under Benito Mussolini, whose supporters falsely made claimed he had done that. In answer to CambridgeBay, that expression and "get hit by a truck" (or bus) are both familiar to me here in Canada, but I don't know if I heard them from people elsewhere; I haven't heard the one about chewing gum. -- (talk) 04:42, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Fascinating,! I never knew that about the origins of the phrase "making the trains run on time"! Khemehekis (talk) 04:52, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
I haven't heard the check item often, if ever; but "unless I get hit by a truck" or train or whatever is kind of gallows humor I've heard often (and used myself); reverse psychology, along similar lines as "break a leg!" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:04, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
These are stock phrases. They are used in a variety of ways that are often non-literal. Bus stop (talk) 05:20, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Besides metaphor and cliche, idiom also works. --Jayron32 10:52, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
The man I worked for often mentioned that he used "reverse psychology" on his customers. We have an article on this, so now I know what he was talking about. (talk) 10:59, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
I don't think they're reverse psychology in any way. I would consider them examples of hyperbole (and terms like idiom, cliche, etc apply as well). Getting hit by a bus is an example of dysphemism, but that's usually a form of hyperbole anyway. Matt Deres (talk) 16:44, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
The initial question could be about what we call "overkill". The thing about the truck is a slightly less morbid euphemism for "if I die unexpectedly". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:40, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
The trains running on time I had heard but only referring to Mussolini not to a general society. The other two I have never heard in 40+ years in the Arctic. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 02:26, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
The bus thing is pretty standard just a little south of you. The construction is often used when talking about eventualities; "Matt is great at doing payroll, but if he gets hit by a bus tomorrow, there's no backup." I might have heard the gum thing before, but it's not common here in my experience. I'm not sure how many people even use cheques at stores these days anyway. Matt Deres (talk) 12:52, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
WHAAOE - Bus factor; 'a measurement of the risk resulting from information and capabilities not being shared among team members, from the phrase "in case they get hit by a bus"'. Quite a well known phrase in London (not the Ontario one) too. This page gives a first citation from Joseph Conrad in 1907. Alansplodge (talk) 23:26, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
You can call it overkill if you want; the linguistic term is hyperbole (and specifically dysphemism (the opposite of euphemism) in cases where the exaggeration is disgusting or morbid). Matt Deres (talk) 12:52, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Slang for "recreational drug"[edit]

The reason for the quotation marks is that I want a slang term for any recreational drug, not a specific one. Is there such an English slang term?--Leon (talk) 18:25, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

The term "dope" enjoys widespread usage in the "recreational drug" community. Bus stop (talk) 19:10, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
I believe the term "drugs" is used. While that term can include legally prescribed drugs taken according to medical guidelines, the context make it quite clear, like "...back when I was on drugs". Or "...back when I was druggin' ". StuRat (talk) 21:22, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
There's also gear (perhaps mostly a UK usage?). AndrewWTaylor (talk) 07:32, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Did anyone else start singing Come, sirrah Jack, ho! at this answer?
I swear that this tobacco
It's perfect Trinidado
By the very very mass
Never never never was
Better gear
Than is here
--Trovatore (talk) 09:42, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I agree with StuRat that "drugs" is the most commonly used term, at least in the U.S. As Bus stop notes, "dope" is also relatively common although the term has had different meanings over time and among different cultural groups, e.g., it has been used to refer specifically to heroin by some, or to marijuana by others. One should also be aware of the controversy surrounding the term "recreational drugs", e.g., a medical dictionary that begins its definition of the term in this manner: "A dubious term that trivialises the dangers and serious social implications of the use of drugs..."   - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) 02:23, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Origin of the phrase "when a man and a woman love each other very much..."[edit]

What is the origin of that phrase? So many sources use it whenever a topic about making babies pops up. (talk) 21:09, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

It's supposed to mimic a parent explaining sex to their child. Not sure if it mimics any particular instance of "the talk", though. StuRat (talk) 21:18, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
The sequel of Finding Nemo had a variant of this, which led Dory the blue fish to find her parents. (talk) 21:43, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
I did a bit of searching in Wikiquote, the IMDB, and Google Books to see what the oldest example of the expression I could find was. I found several uses on 21st-century TV shows, but the oldest one turned out to be in a 1999 book, The Girlfriends' Guide to Toddlers, by Vicki Iovine. The passage reads:
If you start in on the seed and the sperm thing, I promise you your Girlfriend status will be called into question. Children never tire of hearing about how loved they area, so this is your opportunity to say something like "When a Mommy and a Daddy love each other so very much and want to share that love with a baby, God (Khrishna, Vishnu, Mother Nature, Home Shopping) lets a baby grow in the mommy's tummy."
I rather doubt that everyone else using the expression is copying this particular book, though! -- (talk) 23:05, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
I can't tell you what age I first heard it for sure, but I can assure you this euphemistic expression is much older than 1999. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:31, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Quite agree. There's a 1979 example here, but I'm sure it's older than that. --Antiquary (talk) 10:11, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
It was already a stock phrase by at least 1986. Matt Deres (talk) 12:54, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Here's a 1906 magazine article where you can see the phrase in its *ahem* pre-conception: it's not yet a euphemism for sex, but it is an entree to discussing sex in polite company. --M@rēino 19:53, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

My project.....[edit]

(1) I wonder how my project is doing?

(2) I wonder how is my project doing?

I think the former is correct but not sure why. --AboutFace 22 (talk) 21:10, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

(US) I would say "going" instead of "doing", in both cases. The first isn't phrased as a Q, so shouldn't end in a Q mark. The 2nd needs a comma after "wonder", and would be a question you ask of somebody who knows how your project is going (say if they took over while you are out sick). StuRat (talk) 21:16, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
See also Contact clause#Interrogative content clauses, particularly "direct questions normally use subject-verb inversion, while indirect questions do not". Deor (talk) 21:33, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. Sure "going" is perhaps more appropriate but there is a context here. My project is in the hands of someone I know. This individual is working on it, so I feel "doing" is probably OK. The project is not moving by itself. So, it seems you are saying both variants are acceptable, yes? --AboutFace 22 (talk) 23:01, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

You might then say: I wonder, how is Jonn doing on my project? ~Anachronist (talk) 20:32, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • As written, second phrase is not idiomatic, and I see not point in torturing it with extra punctuation to make it acceptable, as doing so entirely changes the emphasis. μηδείς (talk) 23:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Well, you could say:

I wonder, "How is my project doing?"

which is a bit better, idiomatically speaking, c.f. "Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary" --Jayron32 10:33, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
That is precisely the sort of Procrustean torturing with punctuation I advocated against, and it is still wrong, since one does not quote oneself after wonder. You might say: "I see your project is doing fine. I wonder, how is my project doing?" But this is going out of one's way to make a context where that sequence of words is idiomatic. (One can make almost any sequence of words idiomatic by creating a wider context to do so.) On its own, as written, the second sentence is unnatural. μηδείς (talk) 18:07, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

I think it is good: "The second phrase is not idiomatic." I stick with "doing" too. That solves it. Thank you. --AboutFace 22 (talk) 10:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

April 26[edit]

Spanish/Catalan translation of bulb review[edit]

I am looking for a high wattage LED bulb and the only review that is three stars instead of five says "In dóna la potència llumínica that d'altres làmpares de la mateixa potència (almenys en el cas de la de 150 w)." The Google translate doesn't really make it clear what is being said "that light output which gives the other lamps of the same power (at least in the case of 150 W)." Does it make more sense to a speaker of Spanish or did they mistype? -- (talk) 04:36, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

All that I know about Catalan comes from occasionally perusing the book "Teach Yourself Catalan" (ISBN 0-340-19499-5), but I can tell you that the word "that" does not look Catalan to me... SFriendly.gif -- AnonMoos (talk) 13:40, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Logically, it has to mean "Giving the same light output as other lamps of the same power" - though the grammar seems a bit muddled. Wymspen (talk) 14:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
If it was performing the same as other lamps of the same power, I wouldn't expect it to be given only three stars. -- (talk) 22:18, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
If you consider 3 stars to mean average, and it's light output is average, that doesn't seem so surprising. StuRat (talk) 23:21, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
BTW, high output LED bulbs are very expensive (as are CFLs). To get around this, I use splitters. I replaced a 150 W equivalent CFL with four 100 W equivalent CFLs, to increase the light level from 150 W to 400 W equivalent, while reducing the price from $15 for the big bulb to $4 for the four smaller bulbs ($1 each). As a bonus, if one burns out, I now have 3 backup bulbs. (3 would have to burn out for it to be darker than it was before.) This solution doesn't fit in all fixtures, but when it does, it's a good one. StuRat (talk) 23:24, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
[Edit Conflict] Based purely on my knowledge of domestic light bulbs (in the UK market), I would expect an LED bulb to be described as 'giving the equivalent light output to an incandescent bulb of 150 Watts' (or words to that effect), which would be around 2700 lumens.
Such an LED bulb would actually consume only around 24–30 Watts, while an LED bulb that was actually rated at 150 Watts would be extremely bright, in the ballpark of 15000 lumens, and equivalent to the output of a 1000 Watt incandescent bulb, if such a thing were available.
A star rating might be an assessment of the average lifetime of the bulb (some designs/makes last on average longer than others), and/or its energy efficiency (some are a little more power hungry than others). {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 23:44, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Such things are available, but usually just in outdoor floodlights or industrial-type environments. Dbfirs 19:28, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Your phrase "In dóna la potència llumínica that d'altres làmpares de la mateixa potència (almenys en el cas de la de 150 w)" is damaged in some way. There is no such Catalan word as "that," and the initial "in" is suspect. About all I can make out of it is:
which gives light output... (or maybe: in a given light output...)
... other lamps of the same power (at least in the case of 150 watt). —Stephen (talk) 04:00, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
[Stephen, I have amended your indentation to clarify that you are responding to the OP, not to my post immediately above yours. {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 04:59, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

When Latin decayed as language of science[edit]

Why has Latin lost its central role as language of science? Why would scientists back then accept to lose contact with their fellow scientists? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clipname (talkcontribs) 12:54, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Latin remained fairly strong through the early 18th century. The question of which language to use was whether a scholar wanted to communicate mainly with a tiny international elite, or with a broader segment of people in their own country. To start with, publishing in Latin guaranteed that very few women would be able to read a book... AnonMoos (talk) 13:35, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Scientific Latin, as we understand it, is known as New Latin, or sometimes "Neo-Latin". That article has information on its demise. --Jayron32 13:40, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
digression on the meaning of "decayed" (talk) 21:44, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This being the Language desk, I should point out that "decayed" is the wrong word here. That would imply that Latin became inferior. What you meant is that it "fell into disuse". StuRat (talk) 13:55, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
The term dead language is fairly wide spread, the use of similar metaphor to describe the use of languages is common enough, i.e. dying language, etc. --Jayron32 15:06, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Death and decay are rather different things, in the case of language. "Death" is no longer being used, and is a factual statement, while "decay" is "not being as good as it used to be", which is purely subjective. StuRat (talk) 15:24, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
If that were true, you would have to get ALL of these scholarly and reliable sources to print a retraction: [56], [57], [58], [59], [60], [61], [62], [63], as well as several of the cited sources at the Wikipedia article titled Language death. --Jayron32 15:43, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
There's a difference between decay of a language and decay of its use in a particular context. I'm sure the OP meant the latter in their question. For example, French has decayed as a language of international diplomacy, but French itself has not decayed. In most cases, as StuRat says, when someone says a language has "decayed", they're making a subjective judgement that the normal process of language change has resulted in something that they find distasteful. Jayron's cites are a strange mix, mostly articles arguing that English has NOT decayed, but they happen to use the word "decay" in the title. A linguist would only use the word "decay" as a part of the process of language death, when a language no longer has enough native speakers to remain viable. CodeTalker (talk) 18:28, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, Jayron goes for quantity, not quality, in his links. I doubt if he actually read any of them (his post being 19 minutes after mine doesn't seem to have even allowed enough time to do so). StuRat (talk) 19:13, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Jayron goes for links. Hint hint. Reading the stuff you choose to pull out of your ass is a job for a proctologist, not the ref desk readers. Matt Deres (talk) 19:32, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Unlike Jayron, I try to only include links when they are both necessary and useful, rather than extraneous. But if you also want quantity over quality, here's a Google search that found 32.5 million articles with the phrase "language decay" in them: [64]. Enjoy your reading ! StuRat (talk) 20:54, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
"Decay" in the context of language may well mean "no longer as good as it used to be", but most people probably view decay as something that happens after death. As in "festering death". But I guess once a language is no longer in use, then "decay" is no longer logically possible. And "dead" isn't really the case for Latin, it's still used, particularly in biology for naming things. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:37, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Here is an interesting article on the changing preferred languages for scientific publication. It gives a bit of a timeline: Latin from the 15th to 17th centuries, the scientists' local languages over the 18th century, French/German/English in the 19th century and early 20th century, and overwhelmingly English since. The article agrees with AnonMoos that the driving factor was always the desire to reach a wide audience. And it links to another good read here. (talk) 21:44, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

April 27[edit]

Quotation marks vs. italicized text; 'meaning' vs. 'which means'; comma vs. parentheses[edit]

I recently edited the first paragraph of Prodrome (diff), but now I wonder if an aspect of that edit helped or not. Specifically, I changed:

It is derived from the Greek word prodromos, meaning "precursor".


It is derived from the Greek prodromos, running before.

What do you think?

This issue raised three questions for me:

1) Is it better to italicize the meaning or place it in quotes?

It is derived from the Greek word prodromos, meaning runnning before.

2) Is 'which means' better usage than 'meaning'?

It is derived from the Greek word prodromos, which means "runnning before".

3) Would a parenthetical expression work better?

It is derived from the Greek word prodromos ("runnning before").

Many thanks,


P.S. Also feel free to comment on the use of the more literal translation, 'running before', versus 'precursor'.

  - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) 01:44, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

2 and 3) All are OK, but you do need one or the other. How you changed it seems wrong. StuRat (talk) 02:29, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
I think the original was much better. The only change I would make to the original would be to use the Greek spelling πρόδρομος, meaning "precursor". —Stephen (talk) 04:12, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
That change would leave anyone who doesn't know the Greek alphabet unable to tell how much the word was changed when it came into English. Looking at four actual dictionaries via (Merriam-Webster, American Heritage, Oxford, Collins), I find that they all write prodromos and not πρόδρομος, and I think it makes sense to follow that practice. -- (talk) 22:06, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Italics is generally used for foreign words, so use it for prodromos and put the meaning in quotes. I'd use "meaning" rather than "which means" because it is shorter, but that's just personal preference. One other consideration: does Greek use prodromos to mean what English means by "precursor", or does it just mean literally "running before"? If the former, I would suggest It is derived from the Greek word prodromos, meaning "precursor" (literally, "running before"). If the latter, It is derived from the Greek word prodromos, meaning "running before"). (As an aside, I just realize that "precursor" is also literally "running before", in Latin). Iapetus (talk) 09:21, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Use italics when mentioning a word or letter (see Use–mention distinction) or a string of words up to one full sentence (the term panning is derived from panorama; the most common letter in English is e).
This implies that both podromos and its English equivalent should be italicized. Loraof (talk) 15:22, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
I think that giving a definition is an example of use, not mention. I much prefer the style with quotation marks for the definition. -- (talk) 22:08, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, that seems to be the recommedation in the Manual of Style; see the first bullet point in MOS:WORDSASWORDS. Deor (talk) 22:38, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Y'all are awesome. :O) Thank you very much! (I edited the sentence to: It is derived from the Greek word prodromos, meaning "precursor" (literally, "running before").   - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) 03:34, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
In some linguistics books that I've read, the word in question is italicized and the gloss is in single quotation marks. —Tamfang (talk) 09:05, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Accent vs dialect[edit]

Is the only difference between dialect and accent that dialect refers to the language of a group of people while accent refers to a spoken language of a foreigner who is trying to imitate the speech of the native population? In the United States, for example, there is the General American dialect. If a foreigner from Mexico were to speak American English, then he may carry a Mexican accent. Okay, but what about a US-born, English-speaking person who moves to the United Kingdom? Will he be speaking UK-English with distinctive UK vocabulary to facilitate communication and an American accent, or will he be speaking American English because of the way he pronounces things, not by the terms he uses? Or how about a native speaker from Wuhan, China, who moves to Beijing, China, but when trying to speak the standard Mandarin in Beijing, he may pronounce things as if he would in his native Wuhan language? (talk) 13:07, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia has articles titled dialect and accent (sociolinguistics). The first article contains this sentence "Where a distinction can be made only in terms of pronunciation (including prosody, or just prosody itself), the term accent may be preferred over dialect." which matches how these terms are used: Accent refers to purely phonological differences (pronunciation of specific sounds) while dialect refers to differences in word choice as well (i.e. "petrol" in UK vs. "gasoline" in US). There's some overlap between the two terms, as dialects and accents may change; for example, New England English has it's own unique vocabulary (words and phrases like "bubbler" and "frappe" and "bang a uey") but it also has a distinctive accent (non-rhoticity, vowel raising and backing, maintaining the Mary-merry distinction and the comma-mama distinction). Another important principle is A language is a dialect with an army and navy, which is to say that there are not always clear definitions here, and these differences get fuzzy around the edges. --Jayron32 13:18, 27 April 2017 (UTC) -- The word "dialect" is used more often than "accent" in linguistics (among linguists, "accent" usually means pitch accent), but in ordinary non-technical English, the word "dialect" can have derogatory connotations (referring to non-standard speech of rural hayseeds etc.), as in dialect spelling. The differences between major varieties of Chinese go far beyond what most people (linguists or non-linguists) would commonly refer to as ordinary accent or dialect variations... AnonMoos (talk) 13:38, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Well, I didn't really mean a person from Wuhan speaking Wuhanese in Beijing. I meant a person from Wuhan who attempts to speak Beijing Mandarin, but pronounces certain things differently, like failing to distinguish ch and c. (talk) 13:55, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
AnonMoos, Wuhan is actually a good example because the Wuhan dialect is classified as a variety (or dialect) of Mandarin, i.e. they both belong to the same first-level variety of Chinese. OP, in non-technical English, a native speaker of the Wuhan dialect, when speaking the Wuhan dialect, would be using Wuhan pronunciations, vocabulary and grammar. When speaking standard Mandarin with a Wuhan accent, he or she would be using more-or-less standard Mandarin vocabulary, grammar and pronunciation, but with some pronunciations that are non-standard, for example in the way of intonation, or pronuncing (pinyin) ch as sh, or zh as j. If the Wuhan native is speaking with mostly standard Mandarin vocabulary, grammar and pronunciation, but substitues one or two Mandarin words with a small number of similar, but different, Wuhan dialect words, that would normally still be regarded as speaking standard Mandarin with a Wuhan accent, rather than speaking the Wuhan dialect. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:50, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
  • The OP asks whether "accent refers to a spoken language of a foreigner who is trying to imitate the speech of the native population", with the implication that this might be the only meaning of accent. But no: while in common usage to say that someone speaks with "an accent" often means a foreign accent, by the article accent (sociolinguistics) an accent ... is a manner of pronunciation peculiar to a particular individual, location, or nation. So everyone speaks English with some accent. For example, a Midwesterner born in and still living in the US Midwest speaks with a Midwestern accent, just like most of those around him.
As for the difference between an accent and a dialect, and elaborating on Jayron's quote from that article, the same article also says "the word 'accent' may refer specifically to the differences in pronunciation, whereas the word "dialect" encompasses the broader set of linguistic differences. Often "accent" is a subset of "dialect"." Loraof (talk) 15:41, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
I thought accent was a relative term, like indigenous. A population is indigenous, because it has been there longer than later populations. And accent is, what I formerly thought, used to describe any non-native speaker. (talk) 17:40, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Then you though wrong(ly). Yes, most non-native speakers of language 'A' will speak with one or another "foreign accent" depending on their native language ('B', 'C', etc.) and even their native dialect within it – though some may achieve a near-perfect 'A' accent – but various native speakers of 'A' usually also display a variety of dialects and accents relative to each other.
To summarize longer explanations above, accents determine the precise sounds within particular words, but dialects involve the use of different words and often some different grammar. Further, even within the dialects of a language there are usually different registers, which are like sub-accents and sub-dialects but are (mostly) dependent on how formal or informal the speaker is being.
The term 'dialect' as applied to Chinese languages can be deceptive. The word became widely used in translation (to English) from the beginning of the 20th century to refer to often mutually unintelligible varieties of particular Chinese 'languages', which elsewhere in the world be called separate languages within a language family (for example, the Mandarin and Cantonese 'dialects' are about as different as French and Italian, which are of course both members of the Romance language family. The picture was then further confused by the politically mediated desire to portray all aspects of China as more unified and uniform than they really were, and the forced use of Mandarin characters to write other Chinese languages, however different. There is a recent trend in Linguistics to refer to these mutually unintelligible varieties as 'topolects' rather than 'dialects.' {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 18:43, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
90.217, you refer to "the forced use of Mandarin characters to write other Chinese languages, however different". I wasn't aware of the forced nature of this, and I'd like to read something about it, but I can't find anything in Chinese characters. Could you supply some references? Thanks. Loraof (talk) 19:17, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
I think 90.217 is taking the concept of "Chinese as multiple languages" just slightly too far. "Written Chinese" is not specific to Mandarin. It is true that there is one "standard modern (written) Chinese", which is based on standard Mandarin, and for pragmatic reasons most educated Chinese speakers, regardless of their native variety, choose to write in that standard. It is not a top-down, political imposition as such, although of course it suits the current government to promote the Mandarin-based standard. However, the standard is intellible to a large extent in most varieties of Chinese. Further, when suitable for the audience, it is perfectly possible to write anything from tabloid gossip pieces to works of literature in written Chinese to record a variety other than Mandarin - for example The Sing-song Girls of Shanghai which is written in Wu. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 22:01, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
It is forced insofar as schools in most of China only teach the Chinese characters or hànzì of Modern Standard Mandarin, aka Standard Chinese or Putonghua, which are a somewhat evolved and recently simplified version of Classical Chinese characters, and after a certain level only teach using Putonghua rather than the local topolect where different. This is not a problem for native speakers of MSM, but speakers of other Chinese (i.e. Sinitic) languages/topolects are only taught the same characters, which are often a non-optimal match for their own l/t. Furthermore, such l/ts have many words, not used in MSM, for which there are no corresponding MSM characters. It is quite common for a highly literate speaker of Cantonese, for example, to say a perfectly well-known Cantonese word or phrase but be entirely incapable of writing it in hànzì (though they could do so in Pinyin using roman letters if the context allowed – for many official purposes use of Pinyin is not permitted).
This is difficult enought for speakers of one of the Varieties of Chinese (other than MSM itself) which belong to the Sino-Tibetan language family, but the approximately 300 languages spoken in China include members of 9 other language families, which are even less related to MSM. Although these languages are variously tolerated in everyday use, official signs (such as road signs) are increasingly displayed only in MSM, or in attempted transliterations of the actual local language using MSM characters on the rebus principle.
For very extensive and erudite discussions of these points – and the resulting problems for literacy in China, I suggest consulting the current and archive sites of the linguistics blog Language Log (links available in that article), whose regular posters include experts in Chinese (of several varieties and eras) and education in China. {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 05:07, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
90.217, I think you are under a misimpression which confuses the significant variation amongst varieties of spoken Chinese with the mostly singular set of written Chinese characters. When you say "Chinese characters or hànzì of Modern Standard Mandarin, aka Standard Chinese or Putonghua, which are a somewhat evolved and recently simplified version of Classical Chinese characters", I detect a misimpression that modern Chinese characters are different to classical Chinese characters. You may have confused the distinction between simplified and traditional characters, with the distinction between modern (or vernacular) Chinese and classical Chinese. If these misimpressions stem from your reading of "experts" of Language Log, I would recommend that you stop using that source and find a different source of information on the Chinese language(s). --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 14:26, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
No, I am not confusing the separate evolutions of the many spoken Sinitic dialects/topolects/languages (considerable, resulting in often complete lack of inter-intelligibility) with that of the single* set of written characters (much less, but not insignificant). Nor am I confusing the recent adoption of some simplified characters, to which I also referred earlier, a minor point though needing to be taken into account. Many characters have somewhat changed from the classical period, which is partly why modern readers literate in Standard Chinese find Classical Chinese texts difficult to read – perhaps about the same difficulty as a modern English speaker reading Chaucer in the original, I suggest.
* Though there are, for example, characters that are used in written Cantonese but not in MSM.
With respect to Language Log, are you seriously suggesting that the likes of Professor Victor Mair are not experts? {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 21:00, 28 April 2017 (UTC), you should probably stop now. The difficulty of reading classical Chinese for a user of modern Chinese is not related to changes in the characters, but to changes in their meaning and in the grammar of the language. Whoever gave you that idea is ... not an expert. HenryFlower 21:57, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── PalaceGuard008 -- From everything I've read as a linguist, 20th- and 21st-century modern standard written Mandarin Chinese (based on Beijing spoken language) is not close to being neutral between major modern varieties of Chinese. By the nature of the writing system used, it's generally neutral in pronunciation of course, but there are a number of other differences that occur. That's why the Hong Kong Supplementary Character Set exists and we have an article on Written Cantonese... -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:09, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Define language[edit]

What is this language? Can someone transcribe/translate? --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 17:58, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure what language it is but the song is Heartbeat by South African singer Zain Bhikha (the video is on YouTube. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:22, 27 April 2017 (UTC) it Rashid Bhikha? Adam Bishop (talk) 18:23, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
The lead/main lyric is in English, the sample the OP linked is of the backing vocals, in Zulu. BTW Rashid is Zain's son. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 19:07, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, what lyrics I can find certainly fit isiZulu and it is definitely one of the Nguni languages. Unfortunately the audio is not very clear, and I have not been able to find a long text that is not corrupted by English and Arabic influences. If @Dodger67: has a source, a link would be nice. μηδείς (talk) 19:14, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
@Adam Bishop: Thanks, I know, it must be obvious from the file name. I didn't posted the link to the whole song, as I'm interested only in this very small part of it.
@Roger and Medeis: Thanks, my suggestion was similar, Zulu or something, but I was not sure. Still I look forward to the whole text, it is just one sentence. May it be from some other song?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 00:20, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

April 28[edit]

April 29[edit]


April 23[edit]

SF Bay Area TV and Philly soul connection[edit]

Sometime back in the late 1970s/early 1980s, when I was a kid, KTVU would air Super Sunday Cinema and KTVU Presents. They each had intros and outros with songs by MFSB. The latter's song was, "T.L.C. (Tender Lovin' Care)." (That song was also used in commercials for the Oakland Zoo.) I'm trying to figure out the former's song by the same artist. If anyone out there has more information on what I'm talking about, please let me know. Thank you.2604:2000:7113:9D00:49A1:292B:E3FB:1FAE (talk) 06:57, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

mike ehrmantraut-like characters[edit]

friends, I would like to know the movies that has characters like Mike Ehrmantraut (Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul) - a fixer and wise guy. I also see Mike's similarities with Anton Chigurh (Javier Bardem from No country for old men). What are the other movies/tv shows that have characters like this? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 10:00, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Winston Wolfe, Harvey Keitel's character in Pulp Fiction would fit your description. Grutness...wha? 10:25, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
The article Cleaner (crime) lists a few more. Grutness...wha? 07:54, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Thank you Grutness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:11, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Pace makers in marathons[edit]

Hi all - I'm currently watching the London marathon, and wondering why this marathon and some others (e.g., Boston, Berlin) use pace makers. They're not used in Olympic competition, and surely in a race that is as tactical as a marathon can work against individual athletes strategies. Is there any reason I can't think of why they're still used? Thanks in advance, Grutness...wha? 10:24, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Pacemaker (running) explains it quite clearly. Wymspen (talk) 12:23, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Gah - I looked under marathon but didn't think to look for that! Thanks! Grutness...wha? 02:26, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

April 24[edit]

Soap opera editing cliche[edit]

Hi all - I'm looking for the name of a specific film/television editing technique which has become a bit of a cliche in TV soap operas. When there is a discussion or argument between two on-screen characters and one walks out of the room, the camera will often pause in a close-up on the face of the remaining character for a longer time than would be natural, in order to focus on the emotions they are (often badly) portraying. If there is one, what (other than, potentially, long take) is the name of this technique? Thanks in advance, Grutness...wha? 07:46, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

The technique has been around for a while. Mike Nichol's used it (sort of) in that memorable final shot of The Graduate and repeatedly in Carnal Knowledge. I hope these help others in tracking down the info that you are looking for Grutness. MarnetteD|Talk 14:34, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
TV Tropes subsumes it among reaction shots (including more specific variations such as the eye take, the loud gulp, the shrug take, and so forth). Aha, we (as in WP) even have an article on reaction shot. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:28, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Excellent - thanks! (PS - Reaction shot wasn't in Category:Film editing, which I hunted through, so I've added it there) Grutness...wha? 01:38, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

What does a film story look like?[edit]

So take the film Mr. Bean's Holiday. It credits its screenplay writers, but it also credits "Story by". My question is: what does this 'story' look like on paper? Not a script presumably. Amisom (talk) 20:35, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I imagine it varies. For a film based on a novel, the novel itself is the story. More typically it might be a Film treatment. Staecker (talk) 20:57, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
In many cases it's an actual script. If the script is heavily re-written the original author may not receive a script writing credit, but the author of the original script is entitled to at least the "story by" credit", under the principal of the Irreducible Story Minimum. (See WGA_screenwriting_credit_system#Story_by, "Screen Credits Manual", and this helpful summary from NextVEntertainment blog.)
ApLundell (talk) 21:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

April 25[edit]

Spanish spoken on Ingobernable[edit]

I have started watching the series 'Ingobernable. I'm finding it a little bit suspicious how easy it is to understand their spoken Spanish (say, compared to the Spanish spoken on other series, eg. Club de Cuervos ) Is it just me, or are the actors being very careful to speak very proper standard international Spanish? Does it sound natural to a native speaker of Spanish? Duomillia (talk) 17:22, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

It is a drama about politicians - well-educated, affluent people in any culture tend to speak the standardised version of a language, not the dialects and slang of the poor. Wymspen (talk) 13:49, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

name of the film with men in keffiyeh or ghutra[edit]

I remember there was this film, a Hollywood film, with I think Danny Devito or Robert DeNiro and an African-American actor and they were speaking fake Arabic and wearing the Ghutra, the Arab headscarf for men. Does anybody know the name of the film? I remember this film was released in I think early 2000s like from 2001 to 2003. Donmust90 (talk) 20:31, 25 April 2017 (UTC)Donmust90Donmust90 (talk)

You really confuse DiNiro and Devito ? (Well, one was a Taxi Driver and the other was a Taxi dispatcher, so I can see the confusion.) :-) StuRat (talk) 00:33, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
The Jewel of the Nile?
ApLundell (talk) 02:30, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

April 26[edit]

What film was that please?[edit]

In one scene a proud father introduces the pair of his offsprings to a visitor. The son can barely speak, even in his gibberish mumble-jumble due to insanely high number of piercing-rings he is wearing on almost every part of his face (including eyelids) - which are almost hidden behind 'em.

As for the girl, when dad mentions her talent at dancing, she gets inspired rather too quickly, fortunately finding a miscellaneous pole nearby, instantly starts showing off her talent thru a comically energetic form of strip-dancing of a most cheap style.

Can someone please be kind enough to let me know it's title?2405:205:408C:49B5:0:0:21BE:E0AC (talk) 03:49, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

What's your guess on when it was released? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:41, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Given the subject matter, it's unlikely to have been a silent film. We're obviously looking for something in the 21st century. Matt Deres (talk) 12:04, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Maybe the OP could tell us whether it was closer to 2001 or closer to 2017. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:14, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Also don't assume it is an English movie. Questions from IPs in that region are regular here, asking many questions about movies from India. (talk) 17:23, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

OP: No, it was a Hollywood for sure, I saw it on Star Movies or HBO. I remember clearly the cast was white. Saw it in late '80. 2405:205:4082:5214:0:0:22DD:40AD (talk) 08:48, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

The ballad of the green beret, the butcher's boy,[edit]

In the article Ballad of the Green Berets, one line reads "The tune is borrowed from a traditional American folk song, The Butcher Boy." I've listened to multiple versions of both and can't hear the resemblance, the chords for both ("The Butcher's Boy" chords, "The Ballad of the Green Berets" chords) do feature a similar CGC sequence, but comparing the sheet music ("The Butcher's Boy" sheet music, "The Ballad of the Green Berets" sheet music) and admittedly my ability to read music is somewhat lacking, the two don't appear to be the same. I've tried googling "The Butcher Boy" and "Ballad of the Green Beret's" together and all the top ghits appear to quote the two involved Wikipedia articles.

So my questions are, are the two tunes in fact the same and there is a transposition that I can't hear or see, or if the tunes I've found are different, is there another American tune of the song "The Butcher's Boy" that differs significantly from the Irish and English traditions. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me with this.--KTo288 (talk) 12:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

"Nature I loved, and next to Nature Art, and Art, you know, was the butcher's boy". DuncanHill (talk) 15:23, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
You are correct in your assessment. The problem is, we really don't know the "American" version of "The Butcher Boy" as much as we know the "English" and "Irish" versions of the tune. If you try and match up those melodies with "The Green Berets" you will be shaking your head. The chord progressions and tunes are completely different. Listen to the Clancy Brother's here: [65] who reference this tune as an English tune but better known in America as "Tarrytown" [66]. The format of the original lyrics for "Butcher Boy": [67] definitely served as a model for the "Green Beret" lyrical format and structure; and I would imagine if you heard the original American Folk Song; there would be a better alignment between the two that inspired Staff Sgt. Barry Sadler to model his lyrics after. I think the article, though, needs a reliable source to back up the claim since most online sources tend to cite WP / Wiki. In the end, I think Sadler wrote a set of verse, and with a faint familiar tune in mind (not being a songwriter); and someone wanted to cash in on it. So they hired an arranger who tweaked the melody and chords (and feel) to make it into the hit song we know today. Which is far from the original "tune": Butcher Boy. Maineartists (talk) 17:42, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Kelly Harrell's 1925 American version sounds more like Green Berets to me. Listen on Youtube: [68] Rmhermen (talk) 15:29, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

British accents in films[edit]

With my American ears, I can distinguish three different kinds of accents in British actors - fancy accent (spoken by the upper class), not-so-fancy accent (spoken by the lower/uneducated class), and pirate accent. The fancy accent type is extremely widespread. If you want a stereotypical British person in a movie, then that is the go-to accent. The non-so-fancy accent type is manifested in the Artful Dodger in Oliver! (1968). The Artful Dodger says, "In me own carriage . . . I'll do anything for you deah anything!" He just doesn't talk or sing like a typical British person in film. Are actors all required to audition in that fancy accent during auditioning regardless of origin? (talk) 13:07, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

The fancy accent is usually received pronunciation, which is often called posh. There are numerous "lower-class" English accents including Geordie (northeast England) (Brian Johnson), Cockney (Michael Caine) and other dialects of estuary English (Adele) (southeast England), Mancunian (Noel Gallagher) (Manchester area), Scouse (Paul McCartney) (Merseyside/Liverpool), Brummie (Ozzy Osbourne) (Midlands/Birmingham), and many more. The Pirate accent is West Country English; that spoken along the southwestern peninsula including Devon and Cornwall. --Jayron32 13:17, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I disagree with you (and with the posh accent article). RP is not posh, the whole point is that it's a neutral accent stripped of class and regional associations. Brian Sewell did not speak in RP. --Viennese Waltz 13:59, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Then you're going to have to find citations and fix it. I will note that this article and this discussion at quora, and this article and this article. Those were random selections from the first two pages of a Google search. If you have competing sources, please fix the relevent Wikipedia articles using information from them. --Jayron32 14:04, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I've added some well-known speakers of each dialect, so you can pull up youtube videos and listen for yourself. --Jayron32 13:22, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
The West Country English article has a sound clip in it, but I can't say she sounds much like a pirate. The typical movie pirate accent seems to be a strange mix of middle English, as in "ye", and ebonics, as in "Where ye be ?" StuRat (talk) 13:49, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
The referenced citation in the article West Country English states, and I quote, "The West Country accent is probably most identified in film as "pirate speech" – cartoon-like "Ooh arr, me 'earties! Sploice the mainbrace!" talk is very similar." It is cited to reference #24, which is the book Piracy, The Complete History. Here, on page 313, it discusses the West Country Accent being used for Robert Newton's portrayal of Long John Silver, which became the type-standard for the "pirate accent" in popular culture. --Jayron32 13:59, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
That accent is Bristol - head down to Devon or Cornwall (which was where many of the sailors came from) and it gets quite a lot stronger. You must also distinguish accent and dialect - "where d'ye be" is dialect (which you could say in any accent. There are also a lot of specifically nautical phrases like "splice the mainbrace" which can also be said in any accent. Wymspen (talk) 14:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
The Bristol accent is very different indeed from those of Cornwall or Devon, and even from those of Somerset or Gloucestershire. No one would mistake a Bathonian for a Bristolian. There's a blogpost with some interesting links here. DuncanHill (talk) 14:22, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

April 27[edit]

Was Sulu a botanist in Star Trek TOS episode The Man Trap ?[edit]

Later on he worked on the bridge, so this seems like an odd career path. But, he was seemingly working as a botanist in this episode. Was this just supposed to be a hobby, or had the writers not yet decided on the final role for Sulu ? (Note that this was the first episode to be broadcast.) StuRat (talk) 00:37, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

According to our article Hikaru Sulu, it was one of his hobbies – see Section 2.1 Depiction: Original series and films, which includes the text:
"Throughout the series, Sulu is shown having many interests and hobbies, including gymnastics, botany,[14] fencing,[15] and ancient weaponry.[16]"
{The poster formerly known as} (talk) 04:55, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
That's nott necessarily correct. The reference after the word botany is a link to The Man Trap and in the plot section it says "Yeoman Janice Rand (Grace Lee Whitney) into the botanical laboratory as she brings Lieutenant Hikaru Sulu (George Takei) his lunch". So it isn't clear why Sulu the physicist was there. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 05:34, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Maybe he wanted to branch out! Oh, I amuse myself! According to Memory Alpha, evidence of Sulu's interest in botany extend to two other episodes (ref), The Naked Time and Shore Leave. Matt Deres (talk) 16:49, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Warcraft lore: has any character changed race?[edit]

I know that in the lore of World of Warcraft, Thrall at some point deleted his warrior character (which he was playing in Durnholde Keep) and rolled a shaman, but he was still an orc. Likewise, Arthas went from human paladin to human death knight. Have any characters in Warcraft lore changed their race when they rerolled? NeonMerlin 22:24, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Garona the halforc was a half human in the original game (Orcs v. Humans), later retconned into a half-dranai by one of the WoW expansions, and as of the recent movie appears to be half-human again. Iapetus (talk) 08:35, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

April 28[edit]

Shotgun Radio - Black Water lyrics[edit]

Can't find lyrics for Shotgun Radio - Black Water. If this is the case, could someone email me by hearing? Can't discern myself. Thanks. Brandmeistertalk 16:25, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

April 29[edit]

Threatened Editing Warring[edit]

This is not a forum for allegations of edit warring. Please see WP:EW and if necessary take it to WP:AN/EW
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


I'm having a problem with another editor who keeps reverting my short edit.

A British TV show uses a significant chunk of a Christmas song that has been wildly popular in the United Kingdom for the last 50 years. But this song is almost entirely unknown outside of the United Kingdom.

The other editor, AlexTheWhovian, who is from the United Kingdom thinks my short sentence about this song trivial. And trivial is not worth Wiki.

As someone from the 90% of the non-United Kingdom world, I was disappointed to not see the song on the British TV shows page. And added it.

The other editor is now threatening to report me for editing warring.

What can I do?

The TV show is Doctor Who, the episode is "Last Christmas".

The sentence I wish to add is "The song that Shona dances to is Slade's 1973 number one single Merry Xmas Everybody."

My citation is

The article states, "One of the most thoroughly foreign flourishes of the Who Christmas specials — to pretty much everyone living outside the U.K. — is the repeated use of Slade’s “Merry Xmas Everybody,”

Please advise.

Thank you.

KenJacowitz — Preceding unsigned comment added by KenJacowitz (talkcontribs) 02:06, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Would have appreciated being notified of this. (Is this even the right place for this?) The editor has been notified that the content being added is trivial, and simply because a song is apparently "unknown" outside of the United Kingdom (which I do not, in fact, live in), it does not mean it needs to be added to the article. It's a song she listened to. And? How does that have relevance? We are not a site to just list every detail that crosses our heads; however, the editor above continues to add it after being warned by myself and another editor. -- AlexTW 02:39, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Alex, you threatened "be reported for edit-warring. (TW))" I made a small add for the 90% of the world that was unfamiliar with a quintessentially British perennial Christmas song. The edit-war you started is trivial. I did not revert anything you added. I have made a hundred edits and have always had good relations with other editors. Wiki I've read many pages that mention use of songs from modern television shows to use in period historical adaptations of Shakespeare. I've always thought of them as added content, not trivia. Which is why I would like to ask a third party.

Alex, sorry, I'm on the other side of the Earth, and tired and about to go to bed. Yes, Australia has not been a part of the United Kingdom for many years. I meant Commonwealth of Nations.

The other editor did not say my add was trivial. He rightfully disagreed with a citation I wished to use about tracks on a CD. He explained, I agreed. And I reverted that add myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KenJacowitz (talkcontribs) 03:57, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

You are continuously attempting to force you disputed content into the article - that is edit-warring per WP:EW. Again: one song being in an episode irrelevant, we do not add every song in every television episode that has ever aired. It brings no further understanding to the content of the article. Me being part of the "Commonwealth of Nations" really has zero standing here, I'm not sure how it was even raised. Furthermore, when posting on talk pages, please sign your posts with ~~~~. Cheers. -- AlexTW 04:12, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Dr. Sevrin's Ears[edit]

In the Star Trek episode The Way to Eden, the leader of the hippie band, carrier of a deadly plague, has deformed (or manipulated) bat shaped ears. Is this ever explained? It is not in our article, nor is it addressed in the episode itself. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 03:18, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

He's supposed to be Tiburonian, and that's how that species looks (males are also bald): [69]. Funny how they switched from weird ears in TOS to gluing silicone on the forehead for every new species in TNG. StuRat (talk) 05:06, 29 April 2017 (UTC)


April 25[edit]

Three Chess Variants[edit]

I was wondering whether the following three chess variants already exist or have been previously studied, since I was not able to find them either listed in the linked article, nor using Google:

  • chess variant(s) lacking both kings.
  • chess variant(s) where the queen can, at first, move either only as a rook, or only as a bishop, and can start moving as s regular queen only after it captures its first enemy piece.
  • restricted or symmetric versions of shuffle chess, where the left side either mirrors or repeats the right side; or exhibits some other nice symmetrical pattern, like dragonfly (chess variant), for instance. (talk) 07:32, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

  • This discussion notes some possible games lacking a King, or where the King has been swapped out for another piece. Not much, but a start. --Jayron32 14:20, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
    There's a variant called "Knightmate" where the King is replaced by a knight, while the knight is replaced by a fairy chess piece called a Mann. --Jayron32 14:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Indian woman has a fit when handed CD (gif)[edit]

This gif appears to show an Indian woman being handed a CD and then having a fit. Presumably the CD is believed to have some kind of special properties. What is going on here? --Viennese Waltz 08:12, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

It was an inheritance. — O Fortuna semper crescis, aut decrescis 08:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Is that a joke? --Viennese Waltz 08:31, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
I do not make many jokes. But: 'We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.' Cheers. — O Fortuna semper crescis, aut decrescis 08:48, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
It was not a request for opinion, prediction or debate. I am looking for factual answers from someone who is knowledgeable about this actual event. Thanks for nothing, --Viennese Waltz 08:52, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
You would need the sound to be sure, but throwing yourself to the ground and rolling about could well indicate mourning - so if the CD came from someone who had died that could well be a reasonable explanation. Wymspen (talk) 08:46, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
I suspect this woman suffered an epileptic fit. (talk) 10:57, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
You might try asking at Know Your Meme. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 11:18, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Leak-sealing car A/C coolant a good idea ?[edit]

My car A/C leaks out in about 3 months. I hate taking it in for service. I've recharged it myself. So, should I consider the version of coolant that comes with leak sealant ? Or does this ruin the A/C ? It's past the warranty end date so voiding the warranty is not a concern. Also, my car takes 2 containers of coolant, so if I do get it, should I get two with sealant or just one (and the other without) ? StuRat (talk) 17:34, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

My mechanic put UV dye [70] into the coolant, so that the leaking spot(s) will be easy to find with a black light. Could be just a cheap hose or two needs to be replaced. Or, it could be something hard to replace, in which case sure, I'd try the sealant stuff, assuming the car is old anyway. But at least with the dye you'll know where the leak is and will also be able to confirm that you've fixed it. Or, if you do go with the leak sealant stuff first, use the dye anyway, so that you'll know if it worked. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:54, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
As an aside: Take the auto to a specialist in A/C. They deal with all makes and models of every year - every day. They know A/C inside out, as opposed to your regular local mechanics. It may be less expensive in the long run. Let us know how you get on. Aspro (talk) 20:19, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Each recharge costs me only $10 if I do it myself (with the non-sealant coolant), and I only need 2 a year since A/C is only needed here about 6 months out of the year. So, that's US$20 a year. I have a hard time imagining any A/C repair costing as little as that. StuRat (talk) 21:09, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
First: Reckon it costs you more than $20 per year because you have the hassle of go getting and buying a can of referent each time. That takes time. Second: Then there is the time taken to recharging the system. Times two, that must take about nearly hour per year. Don't know what you consider an hours worth of your time is worth but we must be above a yearly cost of a $100 including cans of refrigerant. Plus you need your engine running the whole time -which doesn’t run on fresh air. Can take it, you have already looked all over for lube oil leaking out. Buy a children’s bubble blowing solution (better than washing up liquid etc.). Try it on the fill valve as it may have grit or muck in it. If that fails put the bubble solution all over the pipework. Obviously one needs to have freshly recharged the system first. Anyway this is April – why do you need A/C now? Take the driving belt off and it will improve your fuel economy. Aspro (talk) 22:49, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
It's supposed to be near 80°F tomorrow here in Detroit. And after I leave it parked in the sunlight it will be far hotter. But the price I quoted is for the refrigerant. The auto mechanic will no doubt take far more than an hour. As for my shopping time, I buy it at the same place I go grocery shopping (Meijer). StuRat (talk) 22:59, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
  • See also externality. AC coolant isn't exactly nice stuff. R-134a is better than what they used to use, but it isn't entirely inert. --Jayron32 10:46, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • You should find out where it's leaking first. If it's leaking from a pipe fitting, fix that. If it's the evaporator, then you might be able to sealant it, but that's tenuous (evaporator leaks often get larger with time), yet it might also cost more than the car's worth to replace the evaporator (it can be a day's work just to change it, on some cars). If it's a rotating seal on the compressor though, internal sealants rarely achieve anything. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:59, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Good info. Can you give me probabilities on each ? StuRat (talk) 13:35, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Conerns/interests of children vs those of adults in Western culture[edit]

Does anyone know of a resource outlining how concerns tend to change as people become adults? And, at what ages do priorities typically change? For example, at what age to young adults generally start to care about new furniture?--Leon (talk) 18:34, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

This is a staggeringly huge section of modern psychology; developmental psychology is probably the best fit and the size of that article should give you a sense of how much there is to it. Your specific example draws in even more stuff about consumer behaviour, which is enormous on its own. Matt Deres (talk) 20:28, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
The most relevant consideration is at what age the youngster stops receiving financial support from the parents and moves out of the parental home. This varies historically (time) and by locale (place). Look at relevant parameters: the age limit for state compulsory public education, the age of majority (e.g. for signing contracts), age-related statutes restricting employment, minimum age for enlistment in the military (which provides employment, food, clothing and shelter for those eligible), etc. -- Deborahjay (talk) 14:02, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

April 26[edit]


general complaint; not a ref desk question
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

It is with my deepest regrets that I inform you that I am highly displeased with the way the articles about Muslim or Islam are written . They are mainly centred on the bad tings or the misinterpreted things they did and less about the good and contributing stuff . I hope the mattered is looked into as this is not just the concern of one person but millions out there afraid to speak up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:01, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Can you direct us to one of the articles you feel has problems? Can you identify the problems with that article? --Jayron32 11:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Also, if you feel there is a problem with an article, you can always fix it yourself, although to edit some articles you might need to create an account. Also, don't forget that Wikipedia is a collection of previously published information. If you want to add something to an article, it should be taken from a reliable source. --Viennese Waltz 11:55, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
speculation about motives is not helpful --Jayron32 18:19, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I suspect that they are talking about articles about ISIS, etc., which really can't avoid "saying bad things about (some people who claim to be) Muslims". Instead, I suggest adding or expanding articles about positive Muslim contributions. There's the Red Crescent, zakat, etc. StuRat (talk) 15:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
What you "suspect" the OP to be talking about is not really here or there, especially as there must be dozens of articles on Islam-related topics. Unless and until the OP comes back with a response to Jayron's question, I advise you not to put words into his/her mouth. --Viennese Waltz 15:36, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I invite the questioner (and anyone else for that matter) to read WP:POLE. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:29, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

That article is very optimistic. An alternative is WP:Systemic_bias
ApLundell (talk) 16:13, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps the India-based OP will return here and give some specifics. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:06, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • The OP should take this to the appropriate project or article talk pages. It is not a request for references. μηδείς (talk) 18:33, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

If you have project-wide concerns about how Islam is handled, Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Islam or Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Religion would be a better place to raise those concerns than on the reference desk. ApLundell (talk) 14:46, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

vehicle “acquisition sale”[edit]

I have here a flyer announcing an "acquisition sale” where I could pay $19 and take over the payments on a car. The envelope's return address is “Dept. of Vehicle Notification” (with the seal of the U.S.Treasury surrounded by the legend “Department of Notification / 1982” in a Collegiate-style font), suggesting to me that the offer is intended for punters who won't ask awkward questions. So, what's the racket? Interest gouging? —Tamfang (talk) 19:26, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

As there are zero other ghits on “Dept. of Vehicle Notification”, it is unlikely to be a government responsibility to sell on repo vehicles and it would surely be a state matter rather than federal, I can only assume that this is a simple scam, based on a fraudulent identity for starters.
There are plenty of businesses near me who will pay me a year's free insurance etc. if I would like to "take over the payments on a car" - they're just called garages. I'm not sure what even the supposed advantage to the mark is here? Take on a lease, presumably at the original payment rate, and get a second-hand car? Andy Dingley (talk) 20:16, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, these "payments" are likely far more than the car is worth, or there may not really be a car for sale, and they just want your bank info to drain your account (they will claim they need it to set up the payment plan). StuRat (talk) 20:18, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, or a standard advance-fee fraud scam: once they get a bite, they keep telling the mark that there's just some minor issue that's come up and if they could just send over some more money for processing fees and whatnot we'll get that car to you lickety-split, we promise. -- (talk) 20:45, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • The host of the event is a local Nissan dealer, so I'm willing to assume that the whole thing is technically legal and the cars exist. —Tamfang (talk) 04:09, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Yes, and they evidently are demonstrating the ethics by which used car dealers are widely known. StuRat (talk) 21:47, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Also, if you're feeling civic-minded, if this was sent through the U.S. mail, you can report it to the USPS. The Department of the Treasury might be interested as well in people fraudulently using their logo. -- (talk) 20:47, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Does it count as fraud if it's used essentially for decoration, not in an attempt to pass as the Treasury? —Tamfang (talk) 04:09, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

[71] (Chicago Tribune, 1997) describes a similar advertisement, but the "acquisition fee" has dropped from $37 to $19 (maybe because I'm in a smaller town??). —Tamfang (talk) 04:14, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Notability and Conflict-Of-Interest Questions[edit]

I work for a fourth generation, family-owned retail chain of building supply stores, headquartered in Texas. We have 86 stores in five states and have been in business 90 years. I would like to submit content on our company for a Wikipedia page and have read all the guidelines for doing so.

How do I determine if our company is notable enough to be considered for inclusion into Wikipedia? We are listed on ranking indices of important companies in our field, but I'm not sure if those lists are notable enough or if the various independent published articles about our company would be considered important enough for consideration as well.

To do this correctly requires a lot of work (as it should) so I was hoping to get some direction from you before starting on this journey.

Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:08, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

86 stores certainly sounds like it passes the notability req. However, you have to be careful to avoid making the article sound like an ad. So, don't include terms like "the best" in it.
BTW, we may already have the article, under a slightly different name. What is the name you are using for the chain ? StuRat (talk) 20:14, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you! I'll be very careful to avoid anything that seems self-promoting. (I was going to approach it as an historical article and had printed out another chain in our industry's Wikipedia page to use as a guide as far as acceptable language, etc.) We operate our retail chain under the name McCoy's Building Supply (headquartered in San Marcos, Texas). Our company is McCoy Corporation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:54, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

You are strongly discouraged from editing articles relating to an organization with which you are connected. Also, if your employer is compensating or offering to compensate you for editing Wikipedia on their behalf, you must disclose this. Read this FAQ page. If you have further questions, ask here or see Help:Contents. (Questions about editing Wikipedia belong on the Help desk, but I don't blame you for not being able to find it in our labyrinth of back corridors.) -- (talk) 20:55, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I do know that you have to be especially careful to remain neutral when editing articles relating to an organization you're connected to. I hope using a more detached, historical approach will help! I'll disclose my COI on the draft article. (I'll be sure to use the Help:Contents link for questions when writing. Very helpful!) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 21:17, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

The only current Wikipedia article I find is for McCoy Building, which seems to be unrelated. StuRat (talk) 21:45, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for researching. I also looked around and was surprised to find a Wikipedia article related to our company's founder, Emmett McCoy, which was the McCoy College of Business article (Texas State University). But otherwise, nothing related to our Building Supply chain. I appreciate your and the other editor's help on this! (I think I'll re-read the tips and guidelines one more time and work on submitting a draft article. Fingers crossed!) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 21:53, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

I did find which appears to be this company, but I cannot find hardly any independent writing about the company. Is there any extensive, independent writing about the company we can use to help fill out an encyclopedia article? --Jayron32 10:52, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

April 27[edit]

JCB Classic[edit]

When did the JCB Classic finish? Why did the JCB Classic finish? Was the JCB Classic replaced with anything else?

JCB_Classic — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 02:26, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

The last year of the JCB Classic was May 31-June 3 2007.[72] In 2008 it was not on the schedule; it appears by closely examining the schedules that it was replaced by the Pine Valley Beijing Open after shifting the dates of a few other tournaments around as well.[73] --Jayron32 10:49, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Tormented geniuses[edit]

Hello. I am searching cases of geniuses tormented by their mental illnesses or mental instability, specially when the suffering led them to death or damaged badly their health. The most blatant example is Kurt Godel, a logician genius who was obsessed of being poisoned, refusing to eat and starving to death. Other cases (though not their cause of death) are John Nash (paranoia) and George Cantor (depression). Thanks. emijrp (talk) 15:17, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

A number of writers fit the bill, among them Friedrich Nietzsche, Guy de Maupassant and Émile Nelligan. We must have an article somewhere. --Xuxl (talk) 15:48, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Have you read this article - Creativity and mental illness? It even lists some examples. Wymspen (talk) 15:56, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Van Gogh? Or doesn't he count? — O Fortuna semper crescis, aut decrescis 16:02, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Nietzsche's hugely productive final year, then sudden madness, is often attributed to tertiary syphilis, where the mental symptoms are secondary to the infectious cause. μηδείς (talk) 18:30, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
See also, Friedrich_Nietzsche#Psychological_illness_and_death_.281889.E2.80.931900.29. μηδείς (talk) 22:48, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Evariste Galois may be of interest. Math is a particularly rich field for this... probably not coincidental. Georg Cantor had plenty of issues too, though our article doesn't say much about it. See e.g. here [74] for some comments or see any decent library for biographies of these two. Here are some additional blurbs about mathematics and insanity that may be useful [75] [76]. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:06, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Boltzmann Asmrulz (talk) 16:15, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
John Clare. --Viennese Waltz 16:16, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks everybody for your help. I have found a documentary about it Dangerous Knowledge too. emijrp (talk) 20:42, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

You might also look into bipolar disorder, formerly called manic-depression. During the manic stages, such people can accomplish a great deal. StuRat (talk) 20:54, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Area of California's 1st congressional district as percentage of the State[edit]

I estimate that California's 1st congressional district occupies about 1/5 the land of California. Do you know precisely how much it covers? — Reinyday, 18:02, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

This page [77] has a figure of 74,694 square km for California's 1st congressional district. California's total land area is 423,970 km2. So the district represents 17.6% of the state. --Xuxl (talk) 18:26, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Which would make it closer to 1/6th of the state. --Jayron32 14:06, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
FWIW, California's 8th congressional district is 85,126 square km, making it almost exactly 20% of the state's land. --M@rēino 13:34, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Travel by equestrianism and horse driving[edit]

In times gone by, when people traveled by equestrianism or by horse driving, how much confidence could a traveler have that there would be adequate provisions along the way, for example, between the cities of Los Angeles and New York? By provisions, I mean things such as hitching posts, food and shelter (for people and horses), horse tack, and aid by veterinary physicians. Were there horse travel maps? What is the situation today? I am interested in all centuries and all countries. Please provide references.
Wavelength (talk) 20:07, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

It depends on when and where. As people ventured forth, blazing trails, supply stations tended to follow as routes became more heavily used. Read the history of the Oregon Trail, for example. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:21, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
In Europe, there were coaching inns along main roads which provided this service. Apparently similar facilities were called roadhouses in the US. If you wanted to run a successful hotel/bar/restaurant, it made sense to put one where there was likely to be plenty of passing traffic. Maps and guidebooks for travellers were published in England from the early 18th century giving advice on where you could stay for the night, I'm sure similar ones would have been available in the US. Some information about American road travel at Historical Background on Traveling in the Early 19th Century. Alansplodge (talk) 22:57, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
See Hobson's choice — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 08:49, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
As per our Stagecoach article, “stages” were distances along the route, and at each way station would be fresh horses and other provisions. With enough custom, there might even be a Coaching inn, roadhouse or pub. The latter might provide some good cock and bull stories for amusement.DOR (HK) (talk) 12:12, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
And remember travel across the U.S. was so bad for many years, that many would have chosen to go by ship from New York around all of South America to get to Los Angeles. During the Gold Rush some ships were supposedly abandoned at San Fransisco for lack of crews to sail them back east.[78] Rmhermen (talk) 20:25, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
When heading into an unpopulated area of the US, you might see a sign that says "NO MOTORIST SERVICES NEXT xx MILES": [79]. I wonder if they did the same thing regarding horse services, back then. StuRat (talk) 20:50, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
  • May be of use to see Livery stable, many of which were later converted to garages and auto repair shops. As far as westward expansion in the USA, folks needed to assume they would not see civilization for awhile and plan accordingly. Montanabw(talk) 00:52, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

April 28[edit]

April 29[edit]

Question about[edit]

Hi! I live outside of United States and it says Whitepages Premium can only be accessed by users located inside the United States: Is there anyway I can look up my friend's number in Indiana? Thank you204.239.8.205 (talk) 02:12, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

It's not very far from Vancouver to Washington. You could drive across the border and use a computer in the US. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:31, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Methods of execution[edit]

Me and my friend were talking about how the bad dudes (as trump puts them) should die. It was a race to the bottom, we started with like behindings and stuff. Then to being hung drawn and quartered. Then she came up with the idea of connecting a major artery of the condemned up to an animal. Like a pig, or a cow.

What's up with that? Could that really kill someone, would it be slow and painful. Or what. Maybe the pig or cow would die as well??? Anyone? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 10:52, 29 April 2017 (UTC)