Wikipedia:Reference desk archive/Miscellaneous/2006 October 5
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- 1 cows
- 2 "Exposure" meaning in Risk Assessment/ Management
- 3 Frowning when Eating Delicious Food
- 4 CPH in relation to wages
- 5 mlb playoff
- 6 English :A few pronuncation problems
- 7 Obsolete oscilloscope
- 8 ASVAB in HS
- 9 Clearing house in New York
- 10 Dido album anytime soon?
- 11 Prize Court Question (Old Maritime Law)
- 12 what's this moviie
- 13 my notes
- 14 Ginger
- 15 Amount of oxygen used
- 16 Removing Smoke Smell
- 17 History of Taboo
- 18 black people & "haunted house"
- 19 Wood Integrity
- 20 Basil Leaves - Tearing or chopping?
- 21 Rawlins, Oxfordshire
- 22 Paper lampshade safe from heat of lightbulb?
- 23 hacking laws
I want to know how long cows chew their cud?184.108.40.206 01:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)christina martin
- About the same as short cows. ;) Durova 03:34, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- If you're going to pick at ambiguity, at least answer the correct ambiguous question! You just answered "How long do long cows chew their cud?" It would have been more appropriate for you to say "The same way that the short ones do". </stupidness>
See ruminant and cattle. For how many hours a cow chews her cud a day, see http://www.uky.edu/Ag/AnimalSciences/dairy/extension/nut00014.pdf The first stomach is called the rumen, but is also called the fardingbag, a word which should be used with caution. Edison 03:58, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
"Exposure" meaning in Risk Assessment/ Management
Usually I've read a lot of terms "exposures" in connection with hazards/ threat in the subject "Risk Assessment / Management" especially in environmental / occupational health and safety management. However, I've not got the full meaning of the term. Kindly help me clear & consise definitions in this aspect. For your guide, I'm a Vietnamese, and trying to translate this word to Vietnamese (so as to be freindly used). Much thanks for your attention.
PHAM NGOC TRUNG VIETNAM TANKER COMPANY VIETNAM
- It's a way to define how much of the dangerous item you've had contact with. For many substances, exposure below a certain level is considered safe. StuRat 04:15, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Exposure in the field of risk assessment usually refers to the state of being exposed (unprotected, unguarded) to a particular threat. Thus, one might concisely define exposure, in this sense, as the degree to which somthing is missing protection. dpotter 17:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Another way of looking at the term "exposure" in connection to risk is that "exposure" is a measure of the amount of risk. The greater a person's (or a company's) unprotected risky activity, the greater the person's (or company's) exposure to risk. One can limit exposure to risk by buying insurance. When you buy insurance, you buy protection from exposure. Marco polo 22:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- In certain risk models, there's a concept called "exposure factor". The exposure factor is the pecentage loss in asset value if a threat materializes. In general, the term seems to refer to the degree one is susceptible to harm from certain sources of risks. --220.127.116.11 20:24, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Frowning when Eating Delicious Food
It's common for people (including me) to frown when they take a bite of food that's unexpectedly tasty, or any food when they were ravenous. Frowning is normally associated with displeasure. Why do people use the same facial gesture to indicate the opposite feeling when it comes to food? Is this inherent or learned behaviour? Is it universal or does it happen only in some cultures? Has this gesture always been around, or is it something that's developed within people's memories? JackofOz 03:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps it is lika a dog growling when eating meat. The goal may be to frighten others so they do not try to take the tasty food away from you. I am not familiar with such behavior, and would not serve tasty food to such a person in the future. Edison 04:00, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think it sounds a bit like wild animals when they are tucking into a 'kill'. THey look round constantly to see if anyone is going to take their food away. I also think that there is a certain animalistic feeling of aggression that humans get when eating something good. I know I get it and I do not like to be interrupted when Im gobbling! --Light current 04:18, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- The frowning I'm talking about is usually only momentary. As soon as the person tastes the food, they register the pleasure with this weird frown, then they lighten up straight away. Sometimes it looks like they're trying to suggest they're having an orgasm, but it comes across as a frown. JackofOz 08:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Couldn't it also just be an expression of concentrated anticipation? ---Sluzzelin 09:39, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I vote for constipated anticipation. :-) StuRat 23:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- It's not just for food. People also frown during orgasms, when they are getting an itch scratched, when they are struck by some funny commentary, among other things. I'd say it has something to do with the emotional shock from uncomfortability to sudden pleasure and amusement. ☢ Ҡi∊ff⌇↯ 10:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- It's a good question. My feeling is it's the frown that is associated with concentration - finding the experience so enjoyable you concentrate on it. Adambrowne666 10:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- People also frown during orgasms ... I'd say it has something to do with the emotional shock from uncomfortability to sudden pleasure and amusement. - Are you saying that the moments leading up to an orgasm are that uncomfortable for you? Becuase if that's so, you're probably doing something wrong. ;-) --Maelwys 13:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think I agree with Adam: When concentrating on something, one does tend to frown. Maybe one tends to purse ones lips (like this: 8-o) also, as when seeing a very sexy MOOS. 8-)--Light current 13:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Is that supposed to mean "Member Of (the) Opposite Sex"? I think the most common abbreviation is MOTOS, actually (as well as its counterpart MOTSS). 惑乱 分からん 14:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- "Frowning during orgasms" is outside of my modest experience. I can think of plenty of expressions and behaviours I have witnessed during orgasms, but I would think frowning was a sign of discomfort in that instance. "I was fainting not frowning."--Shantavira 14:45, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- What I'm hearing is this concentrated facial expression is well recognised, but it should not be called a "frown" because that usually denotes displeasure. It is certainly frown-like, though. Maybe we need a new word to describe this. Or, find a published thesis on this behaviour, so we can update the frown article to include such cases. JackofOz 23:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
CPH in relation to wages
What does the term cph mean in relation to wages within australia. For example it says " your wage will be 1766.14(cph) during training and 1877(cph) after training.
- Cents per hour perhaps?--Shantavira 07:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Looks like a way of making $17.66 per hour sound more than it is. JackofOz 08:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- That makes a lot of sense. Clarityfiend 16:14, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
thanks people. im pretty sure that it might be cents per hour, it would make a lot of sense:) No matter how extravagent they seem to want to specify their award rates.
I can not read INTERNET .pLease send me the playooff 2006 results. Robert Carrero
- If you have no access to the Internet, how could you have access to Wikipedia? 惑乱 分からん 12:49, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
English :A few pronuncation problems
I discovered that I am in doubt about these things :
1.words ending in -lth and -lthy. When to pronounce the t, and when is there a 'f' sound? How do I pronounce wealth/wealthy/health/healthy
2. I never got this in school. "neither" and "either" : is the "ei" a "eye" sound or is it like "ei" in "weird"?
- "Weird" actually seems to be pronounced slightly different than either, so it's not a good example. Otherwise, it's dialectal. 惑乱 分からん 14:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Free variation would be more like it, IMHO. --Kjoonlee 15:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- The unconfirmed report I heard on either and neither is that the British pronunciation stems from a mistake by George II of Great Britain, who spoke English with a German accent throughout his life. The letter combination ei is pronounced like eye in German but usually gets pronounced like the vowels in meet in English. Those particular two words are still pronounced differently on different sides of the Atlantic. Durova 16:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Free variation would be more like it, IMHO. --Kjoonlee 15:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
3.The first e in defend/defense, does it sound like "ei" in "weird" or does it sound like the u in "cuff"?
- Apparently similar to the sound in big, according to my dictionary. 惑乱 分からん 14:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- The first e in "Defense" may also be pronounced like the "ee" in "reed", especially if you're talking about a defensive player or group in sports. At least in Canadian English. Charlene.fic 16:32, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I speak Dutch so if you do so as well you can use the Dutch spelling to explain pronunciation :). Thanks!Evilbu 13:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Hi! Have you looked at the Wiktionary pages for health, either and defend? (Is there a better way to create links to Wiktionary?) —Bromskloss 14:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- "You say eether and I say eyether, You say neether and I say nyther" at http://www.lyricsdepot.com/fred-astaire/lets-call-the-whole-thing-off.html Edison 14:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- By the way, it's probably better to ask at the Language desk instead of here, next time. :)
- With the question about the e in defend, unstressed vowel sounds like this often have no clear pronunciation. Usually the mouth is relaxed and a fairly neutral vowel is produced, and since the sound is shorter and quieter the effect isn't that noticeable (unless you're actually listening for it). - Rainwarrior 15:43, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I have been trying to find some info on an obsolete scope I have, made by Iwatsu. Model No SS-7607. All I really know about it apart from what I see on the front panel, is that it has 60MHz BW. Any further details, however small, will be gratefully recieved. --Light current 17:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Did you try Iwatsu and the contacts page. They might be able to help. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 00:15, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
This page is now one of ten results for "ss-7607 oscilloscope". 18.104.22.168 21:06, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
ASVAB in HS
In this book I got in my school libary, it says something about the ASVAB being offered to High School Juniors and Seniors. Is there any website that would say which schools offer it?
--Ohiosucks 16:34, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Um, I'm assuming this is some type of examination/standardized test? I'm also assuming based on your use of American educational terminology -- to my knowledge the US is the only country to divide and label secondary ed. into Freshman, Sophomore, Junior and Senior years, but I definitely could be wrong -- that you are asking about U.S. high schools. In that case, it would probably be the individual school boards, and/or state Departments of Education which would have that information. Most state agencies have websites, so I'd recommend starting there. -Fsotrain09 17:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- The ASVAB is the United States armed services entrance exam. Contact a military recruiter for information about how to take the test. Durova 20:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Clearing house in New York
I Was Informed That I WON Money By The Clearing House Of 100 Broad StreetIn New York, By A Mr David Klaus. Now I Wish To Know If This Some Kind Of SCAM,Or Not? Is There Is An Office Of OFAC,And Do They Handel This Transaction, of According To The Clearing House That I WON $2.5mil In US Dollars.I Don't Know What To Believe. Can Someone At Your Office Help Me With This Problem? I Just That I Have The Correct Office That Can Reply To My Question. My Name Is personal info removed This Clearing House Said That I Will Have To $15,850.00,For Processing,Administrative,And Other Things To The OFAC.I Am Sorry But I Was Taken By Other People Before,And So I Am A Little SCARED To Be Taken Again.Again I Want Thank You For Any Help That You Can Render!!Have A Nice Day. I Am INNOCENZIO DANNA
- Why do you start every word with a capital letter? It feels strange, and it gets hard to read. Otherwise, it's likely a scam... 惑乱 分からん 16:47, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Of course it's a scam, why would you think otherwise? Besides that, the odd capitalizing that you're using is ironically similiar to that in all of the 419 emails I've recieved and read. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 16:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- I Win European National Lotteries Worth Several Hundred Thousand, If Not Several Million, Euro Every Hour. I Never Bother To Collect My Winnings Though. JIP | Talk 19:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
There are many, many ways to tell it's a scam. Here are a couple:
- No legitimate contest would ever require you to pay anything. You will owe taxes, but those go to the government, not to them. And even if they had a "processing fee", why couldn't they just write you a check for slightly less ? (The reason, of course, is that any check you get from them will bounce, after they have cashed the check from you.)
- You will never win a contest unless you entered the contest. If you don't recall ever entering the contest, then you didn't.
StuRat 23:16, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- Who cares? Howard Train 16:59, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Assuming Dido is some sort of musical artist, he/she/it/they probably have a website. Look there. PS: Duh. --Ohiosucks 17:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
1. Read the Dido article on this site; 2. Read Dido's website; 3. Google for "Dido fan forum" and ask there.
Prize Court Question (Old Maritime Law)
If a Ship A were to mutine against the ship's lawful owner, and then later Ship B boarded and took her would it be a lawful prize for Ship B? Would it depend on what court or power heard the case? Would it go back to the original owner? What if the original owner was killed in the mutiny? What sorts of laws would come into play? --Demonesque 17:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well, that might have been what happened to the Mary Celeste. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 20:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Where exactly was the ship when the crew mutinied? Where was the crew and Master? Was it tied to a dock? Was it lying at anchor within the nearest nation's internationally recognised maritime boundary, or outside it? Was it floating adrift? Had the owners declared the ship as being abandoned at sea? Etc, etc, etc,.
- You didn't get a "prize" in the legal sense unless it's a spoil of war, in my understanding, so unless the mutineers did something weird like run up the flag of a hostile country, it's a non-issue. Shimgray | talk | 23:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- See a maritime law expert for maritime law advice, of course, but as to the owner being killed having any effect on ownership, his heirs should inherit his estate. It should not be up for grabs any more than if any other business owner or property owner is killed.Edison 15:23, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
what's this moviie
I remember this movie or show or something.. this guy (he looked like Andy Samberg) was a farmer's son or something. He goes to town because "he's gotten into hip-hop" to participate in a rap competition. The entirely black audience is furious that this white boy is trying to rap and they decide to kill him if he loses.. he faces the rap champion who does the typical "yo momma" and "white boy" insult rhymes, and the guy does a brillinat rap where he says stuff along the lines of "I might not be poor" "might not fail 2nd grade" "didn't grow up in the ghetto" basically making all of the black rapper's credentials into things to be ashamed of. The audience loves him and he wins the competition but he accidently says something that turns the audience riotous towards him and he has to escape for his life.
I might be mixing two different movies here but I think he then returned to his farmhouse and the rest of the movie or show or whatever was a parody of science fiction horror movies. Some girl was killed in a well under his house and she comes out to kill people but she gets knocked back in. There are some lame looking aliens that come and the government tries to kill them but the aliens overpower the agents. Then all the black people from the competition drive up in their excursions and escalades and pull out their gats and mac10s and wipe out the aliens. I think Leslie Nielsen played the head government guy. Does anyone have any idea what I'm talking about? --frothT C 17:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Scary Movie 3. And yes, it's all the same movie, you're not mixing two. --Maelwys 17:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- BTW, the movies being parodied were 8 Mile and Signs, respectively. zafiroblue05 | Talk 05:36, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I have a question. I am doing notes for my ISP novel. I couldn’t find any thing about it on this site. So I decide to do my own notes. I want to post these notes up into this site but the problem is what if my teacher found the notes i put on this site and thought I copy them?
- That won't be a problem, as your notes wouldn't last very long on the site. This encyclopedia is a collection of previously published information, your notes would constitute original research, which doesn't belong here. --Maelwys 17:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
If they are posted to your user page they should stay there. By the way, what is your Internet Service Provider novel about ? StuRat 22:53, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I would like to make some joke sweets ( with a medicianal purpose of course) using raw ginger. Any suggestions on what to cover the ginger with? Will the preparation need cooking? I would like a very simple recipe if poss as Im not a cook.--Light current 17:37, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- You could just cover them in melted chocolate. That would be relatively quick and easy. Or carefully melt some boiled sweets and use those. Skittle 13:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- Just a note - You say you're not a cook, but I assume you know not to touch the melted sweets until they have thoroughly cooled down, otherwise they could stick to you and cause some nasty burns. Skittle 13:09, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Well what I really want is for them to taste nice initially, and then kick in with the powerful taste of raw ginger (enough to blow your head off!). Covering with chocolate seems a good idea! 8-)--Light current 00:52, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- Excellent. People might even think they were crystallised ginger covered in chocolate. Have you melted chocolate before? Skittle 10:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- No. Is there a trick and do you need special chocolate?--Light current 01:20, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- The 'trick' is either to use a microwave on low power, and stir frequently, or use a bowl over/in a saucepan of water that you heat. Don't just put it in a saucepan or nuke on high power, because it burns easily. Otherwise it's very simple. You can use just about any chocolate, remembering the softer stuff tends to melt quicker. For general cooking and covering things, I'd tend to use a quite dark chocolate, but it doesn't really matter if you don't want people to enjoy the experience! Skittle 10:29, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Amount of oxygen used
From how many square feet of air does normal human breathing for an hour deprive of oxygen? What about fire? Perhaps other animals? Also how much oxygen do plants return to the air/carbon dioxide remove? Thanks very much. Reywas92Talk 19:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- First of all understand that by breathing you don't take all of the oxygen "out" of a certain amount of air and then that air has no oxygen. You take a certain amount (not nearly 100%) out of the air, and then the air that you breathe out mixes with the air in the room to make a slightly less oxygenated mixture. Humans can survive for about an hour in a sealed coffin (shown by MythBusters). Fire consumes oxygen rapidly and more people die of smoke (there's very little oxygen in smoky air) than of flame and burns. Most animals are smaller than humans and obviously consume much less oxygen. House plants return very little oxygen to the air, trees as well. Algae and other green water plant life are the primary contributors --frothT C 19:45, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Don't rely on medical info from Wikipedia. But science programs on TV have said that in a sealed chamber, the rise of CO2 would cause unconsciousness and death before the depletion of O2. Similarly with fire, if the heat didn't kill you, the buildup of carbon monoxide might do you in before the depletion of oxygen. In movies, people die seem to die within a few minutes of being sealed in a fairly large space, for dramatic effect. And as to the original question, you might better ask in terms of cubic feet rather than square feet. One would last longer in a closet with a 10 foot ceiling than in the same size closet with a 4 foot ceiling. See the article Respiratory system.Edison 15:41, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Removing Smoke Smell
- Febreze, it might not get rid of it completely, but combine that with a thorough airing out and it may get rid of the worst. Nowimnthing 23:31, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
History of Taboo
- Taboos have been an integral part of culture for as long as human beings have had culture to speak of. Your question is rather nonspecific - "many things" most especially so. I'm sure thousands of "things" have been considered taboo at one point or another by most cultures. Are you referring to "Western Culture" specifically, or are you actually looking for the tremendously long list that you seem like you're asking for? 22.214.171.124 19:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- See Taboo. -Fsotrain09 22:06, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- The English word "bear" (for the animal) used to mean "brown" and was used because the previous name of the bear was taboo. The same is true of björn and other European words for the animal, so the taboo goes way back into prehistory. --Kjoonlee 00:53, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- See Taboo. -Fsotrain09 22:06, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
black people & "haunted house"
I was watching this SNL opener last night and I was confused by a comment hilary clinton made. She said that she pandered to a black audience by saying the republican congress was being run like a plantation. She told anderson that she had two choices: "plantation" or "haunted house" but she suspected not many people would understand "haunted house" so she used plantation.
- One highly racist term for blacks is "spooks", I suspect they were talking about that term. StuRat 22:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, a cotton plantation is exactly what it means, where the white Republican politicians are the "masters" and the black voters are their "slaves". StuRat 03:07, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
What is the structural integrity and the work load of various sizes of wood. I need the information to build a trebuchet.-- Meteshjj We come from the land of the ice and snow 20:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Depends on what sort of wood you're using. For example, I'd expect that oak makes for stronger boards than balsa. Even within a type of wood, strength varies greatly with quality: a high-grade pine 2x4 with no knots will be much stronger than a low-grade board with knots every eight inches. Also, wood is not an isotropic material: the relationship between the load direction and the direction of grain is significant. --Serie 21:35, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think you will be getting into more math than you want. Wood can be rated by elasticity, density, compression, tensile strength, etc. All this can vary due to the amount of moisture in the board, what chemicals have been used to treat it and so on. I am not sure how you would even go about figuring the various types of load 1 particular board in a trebuchet would get during different parts of the loading and firing. Nowimnthing 17:53, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Basil Leaves - Tearing or chopping?
- I always chop my Basil leaves into soups, stews, salads, sandwiches etc., but am made to feel like a fraud when I read the comments of foodie writers and celebrity chefs who proclaim that tearing the leaves releases more flavour into the end product. Can this be supported by factual evidence or may I continue to chop my leaves without also developing a guilt complex? There's money riding on this. Oh, and I am British so that gets me off to a bad culinary start eh?
- Most foodies don't have much scientific knowledge. Cutting would probably be better, as it would produce a larger SA:Vol.. Chefs prefer to tear as it takes a lot less time!
I think us brits have quite good gastromony!
- Off the top of my head without any practical or experimental evidence to back it up, (how's that for confidence inspiring!) I would think that the foodies are right. If you're cutting you're making fairly precise cuts and exposing only the cross section of the leaf. Tearing may damage more of the fibers of the leaf along the tear, it would be more irregular of a "cut" and thus allow more of the flavor to come out of the leaf. Dismas|(talk) 02:47, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks - but I can cut more finely than if I tear, so am I not exposing a lot more of the cut edges by doing so?
- As I recall from some cooking shows, some chefs prefer to roughly tear their leafy herbs because there's some oxidation that takes place in contact with the knife blade that can change the flavour slightly. I chop mine too, so obviously I'm missing the good stuff. Tony Fox (arf!) 18:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The proper method I learned was to chiffonade basil and other aromatic leafy herbs.
I'm drawing a complete blank on this one, and I don't have access to an old gazetteer. Does anyone know where Rawlins, in Oxfordshire, is or was? All I seem to be able to find is people called Rawlins who live(d) there, but I keep running across independent sources (mainly the Dictionary of National Biography) referring to "a seat" there - it may just be a manor house, it may be a village or a hamlet, I don't know. (The main figure resident there was Sir Charles Hardy; he inherited it through his wife from a diplomat, it passed to his son, and then vanishes from history circa 1800) Shimgray | talk | 22:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- You mean Rawlins, in the parish of South Stoke, Oxfordshire? Got from this search, fifth link. --Tagishsimon (talk)
Paper lampshade safe from heat of lightbulb?
I made a lampshade out of paper (regular white printer paper), which rests no less than the length of a pen (about 6 inches) away from the light bulb (a regular incandescent bulb). Does this create a fire hazard? I have a 100 watt bulb in there. What if I put a 40 watt bulb in there instead? I need proof that this would be totally safe, otherwise I'll just get a real lampshade. —EdGl 22:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- I have a store bought lamp with a paper shade that hangs about 4 inches away from a 60 watt bulb. Never had any problems with it. If you really want to be safe you could always treat the shade with a Fire retardant. Nowimnthing 00:02, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- How stupid am I? (that was rhetorical) I Google searched "Paper lampshade" and the first link was pretty helpful (and is basically what you just said, Nowimnthing!) Sorry for cluttering precious Reference desk space. Carry on =) —EdGl 00:35, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- Don't worry about it; I've concluded that I should either get fire retardant spray or a new lampshade. Oh, and thanks for your help, Noimnthing. —EdGl 01:06, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- Paper lampshades don't last long anyway, and they are virtually impossible to keep clean.--Shantavira 09:31, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I was just reading this article and frankly I'm confused. ".." is a valid directory name. It can also be used as an extremely stupid attack (which is basically what he was doing) but so what, it's up to the admin to secure his server. If the guy uses documented functionality to view directories that the developer wanted hidden, then oh well the developer should have hidden it better. Am I right here? That's my perspective on security and it's infuriating to see politicians make rediculous laws that a 10 year old could break with zero malicious intent.
How is it done in the US? Would it be considered illegal to hack a website and change its content? If so, why?! The hacker is just manipulating the machine (which is doing exactly what it's programmed to do) and changing bits. How about stealing free email account names and passwords? Exploiting authentication bugs in a web forum? --frothT C 23:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Legally, you're probably wrong, although I don't have the evidence to back it up, yet. You shouldn't claim things are acceptable just because you can do them. 惑乱 分からん 23:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- I would assume the US laws treat online content much like property. When you enter restricted areas, you are trespassing on private property even if you do not do any damage. If you change things, then you are defacing private property. It does not matter how much or how little security the property has, you are not allowed to mess with other people's stuff. Nowimnthing 00:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The result of this case seems a bit harsh. The law states
1.—(1) A person is guilty of an offence if—
(a) he causes a computer to perform any function with intent to secure access to any program or data held in any computer;
(b) the access he intends to secure is unauthorised; and
(c) he knows at the time when he causes the computer to perform the function that that is the case.
Cuthbert did do (a). And it is arguable, and the court believed, that his access was (b) & (c). There is clearly plenty of scope for debate on the latter point - making up URLs and seeing what they do has long been a part of the web for me. It is a little chilling to think that the absence of an explicit invitation (e.g. a link) renders the guessed URL a criminal offence :( --Tagishsimon (talk)
- Well, there goes my Google Hacking! --Zeizmic 01:32, 6 October 2006 (UTC) (That was a joke Mr. Police!)
- I'm really surprised. Couldn't the defense get an expert witness? According to W3C's RFC 3986, Uniform Resource Identifier (URI): Generic Syntax, the meaning of "
.." in a URI is precisely defined. Quoting from Section 3.3:
- The path segments "
." and "
..", also known as dot-segments, are defined for relative reference within the path name hierarchy.
- However, unlike in a file system, these dot-segments are only interpreted within the URI path hierarchy and are removed as part of the resolution process (Section 5.2).
- The path segments "
- (My italics). Section 5.2 gives an algorithm in pseudocode and illustrates it on an example, showing how the URI "
/a/b/c/./../../g" is normalized to "
/a/g". According to the standard this must be done before you do anything else with it. Just try the URI "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Bondage/../Miscellaneous". The standard defines that it does not matter that there is no subpage Wikipedia:Reference desk/Bondage. Should it behave differently, it means that the web server is non-compliant. If the implementation of the URI resolution process is compliant, you should be unable to get any effect that you could not also have gotten without using a path segment "
..". This is completely independent of whether "the site has been unprotected". You should not be able to "move up three directories" simply because that is not supposed to be the meaning; the meaning is: "eliminate the three preceding segments from the URI path". So even "404: Page Not Found" or "You have no access permission to this directory" would have been non-compliant, and certainly setting off an alarm. Something like "
https://tsunamirelief.org/donation.csp/../../../" should simply be equivalent to "
https://tsunamirelief.org/". --LambiamTalk 04:44, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah well there is malicious use.. certainly different than just typing it in the address bar. See ssi injection and other stuff like that. Everything up to and including code injection should be perfectly legal... after all it's just giving valid input to stupid programs. Now were I to use it to gain illegal access and read through their files or delete their website, that should definately be illegal --frothT C 14:26, 8 October 2006 (UTC)