Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion/Log/Deleted/November 2005

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November 1st[edit]

{{Scottish-geo-stub}} (redirect)[edit]

unused redirect to the correctly-named {{Scotland-geo-stub}}. Delete. Grutness...wha? 01:11, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

November 2nd[edit]

{{State park-stub}} / Category:State park stubs[edit]

This category may have been useful at one time before the split of the mammoth {{US-geo-stub}}, but now it cuts across the other subcategories of Category:United States geography stubs. Delete and sort the articles into their appropriate subcategories. — Fingers-of-Pyrex 16:49, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Delete as per nom. If it's kept, rename to US-statepark-stub (or anything else indicating it's just for US ones). --Mairi 20:34, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete The articles are all far better sorted by state. Grutness...wha? 01:01, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
  • delete as per nom BL kiss the lizard 05:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment to Mairi - if (as looks likely) this is deleted, it would probably be best to 'bot these all over to US-geo-stub, and we can sort them from there. That way the category and template can be deleted quickly. Grutness...wha? 06:56, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Ok, that's what I'll do now then. Not that deletions normally happen quickly around here ;) --Mairi 04:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

{{China-military-stub}} (no category)[edit]

Bad name, feeds into main rather than dedicated category. Useful though. Rename to {{China-mil-stub}} and delete the original. Grutness...wha? 01:11, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Speedy fix. Aecis 11:26, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: Possibly substantially overlaps with {{china-hist-stub}}, and to a certain extent {{china-bio-stub}}. — Instantnood 20:28, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Speedy fix Alai 20:41, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Though is this going to be above threshold? I didn't count very many in mil-stub. Alai 21:19, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: Has just noticed it's already linked to category:military of the People's Republic of China (note: not a stub category). I suppose clarification is necessary on whether its scope is extended to PRC's predecessors. — Instantnood 21:04, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Move and redirect {{Macao-stub}} to {{Macau-stub}}; delete Cat:Macao stubs[edit]

Created with "Macao" spelling against a clear consensus on WP:WSS/P. (And against all existing Wikipedia practice, and common English usage.) Existing {{Macau-stub}} "redirect"; created as a transclusion, which I just tried to fix to be an actual template, immediately turned into an actual redirect by Instantnood. Speedy fix of counter-consensus creation. Alai 20:41, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Comment: As mentioned at WP:WSS/P, the Macanese government, as in common English usage, uses both, but it prefers Macao when used in English. An example would be the cover of its passports. (In Portuguese, which is one of the official languages there, Macau is the only spelling, however.) Although Macao vs. Macau is not a British-American difference, I suppose the same rule for dealing with spelling variants readily applies. See also the interesting exchange at talk:Macau. For vote counting purpose, please count this as an objection to the proposal. — Instantnood 21:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
    • This was all dealt with on the proposal page. Please refer to Wikipedia's policy on most common names, not most official ones. No evidence has been presented that "Macao" is the most common spelling in any English-speaking country, and existing article and category names predominantly use "Macau", by a wide margin. Having a template and category with a different name, using that variant in their text, and linking to the redirect Macao seems to be rowing against clearly established practice and consensus. Given the on-going arbitration case and mediation involving you and these very types of issue, I find this all extremely disappointing. Alai 21:33, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
      • The spelling of Macau is not related and irrelevant to what the ArbCom case and the mediation are about. Although Macau is relatively more common, since both spellings are in common use, I do not agree to have any preference over any of them. (I believe organization stubs and international organization stubs were not the result of -z- being the more common spelling.) — Instantnood 21:55, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Agree Stub sorting is not the place to decide between the two spellings. Since the article is Macau and the associated category is Cat:Macau, then until and unless those are changed to Macao we should use Cat:Macau stubs. Caerwine 23:52, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Agree as per nominator and Caerwine. I warned instantnood against creating any stub on macau/macau given the on-going naming dispute, and he went ahead anyway despite objections here as well over its naming. This is clearly an attempt to contravene concensus, and an underhand tactic in getting things his way. The ArbCom and mediation processes talks precisely about the way instantnood behaves in wikipedia, and similar patterns has been observed. Saying "macau/macao" is not part of the dispute is irrelevant and woefully irresponsible, because the ArbCom is not supposed to be talking about content edits anyway. It talks about behavior, and it is his behavior now which is deplorable. Instantnood has tried to use the categorisation system to promote his viewpoints without consensus (see how many categories he created with "macao" in its name, despite the mother category being spelt "Macau"). His efforts has been spreading to the stub system, and this latest exercise appears too much to be part of it, just as his agressive usage and promotion of the Mainland China stub in another related dispute over the usage of that term.--Huaiwei 04:30, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment: The Google count gives 4 440 000 for Côte d'Ivoire and 18 800 000 for Ivory Coast. If the consensus were to call the country Ivory Coast and never Côte d'Ivoire on Wikipedia, is it the behavioural problem of those who prefer Côte d'Ivoire? — Instantnood 07:06, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Instantnood has this love for bringing in every other example in wikipedia to support his viewpoints, as thou we cannot evaluate each case individually, and cannot make exceptions. Côte d'Ivoire was an obvious exception. Why do you not call for East Timor to be renamed as Timor-Leste [1]?--Huaiwei 07:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
        • Timor-Leste is member of the UN and many other organisations under the name "Timor-Leste". But since the difference of "Timor-Leste" and "East Timor" in English is so remarkable (1 630 000 versus 35 700 000) it may not be wise to do so at the time being. Even if it has to be done, it's much better to make sure every single article and category is redirected from its another name. — Instantnood 07:55, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
          • How hypocritical. What happened to your insistance that names reflect governmental regulations? Where is your consistent thought when you demand wikipedia remain consistent?--Huaiwei 09:13, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
            • Of course we're not only talking about the government usage. But since the difference between "Timor-Leste" and "East Timor" is much more remarkable comparing to Macao vs. Macau or Côte d'Ivoire vs. Ivory Coast, it has to be handled with greater care. As for the ArbCom case, if it did matter here, please read also what was said about Huaiwei. — Instantnood 10:47, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
              • So if you can include factors beyond government usage, why your insistance in keeping to the spelling of Macao when you only major point seems to be that fact that the Chinese government uses it at odds with the rest of the English speaking world? What do you mean by "differences is much more remarkable" with regards to East Timor? Explain in detail why East Timor is "more remarkable" compared to the other two cases if you are able. The arbcom case is relevant, and yes, feel free to ask everyone to read what they have to say about me. Quite unlike you, I dont deny any sense of truth in what they have to say. Do you?--Huaiwei 01:59, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
                • You can tell from the difference between "East Timor" and "Timor-Leste" from the Google count, and compare to that of Côte d'Ivoire/Ivory Coast and Macao/Macau. As for the spelling of Macau in the English-speaking world, see [2] [3] , [4] [5] for instance. — Instantnood 06:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Policy note. See Wikipedia:Categories for deletion policies#Criteria and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Categories_by_country. Conclusion: speediable as a matter of policy (as well as acclaim, previously established consensus, and common sense...) Alai 00:10, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Categories_by_country has no provision on how Macau should be written, unlike East Timor and Côte d'Ivoire do. — Instantnood 06:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
      • I quote from said conventions: For "of country" and "in country" categories, the name of the country should appear as it does in the name of of the article about that country [...] (Bold as per original.) Now, one might argue that Macau is a former colony and current Chinese SAR (and one would be right), but the principle seems both clear, and applicable. Alai 07:04, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
        • Alright.. There were actually calls to move the article to -o. If it is moved, we'd have to change the stub type too. — Instantnood 08:24, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Agree I am from Macau. The spelling of MacaU is fixed to the every Macau resident's mind. In Macau, you can easily see Macau everywhere but Macao is not. You can see Macau on the banknotes, coins, street and in the Macau East Asian Games, etc. I believe that almost all the people in Macau prefer Macau to Macao. - HeiChon~XiJun 03:47, November 7, 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment: I'm afraid that's only because English is not an official language in Macao/u. English is not printed on bank notes and coins. Macau is the sole spelling in Portuguese since a spelling reform last century. — Instantnood 10:47, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, unless the category is also moved. Deryck C. 09:33, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
    • The category would be changed. Category:Macau stubs already exists, which is probably why it wasn't mentioned... --Mairi 06:53, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
      • That was my intention, yes. I was trying to be precise, but perhaps didn't succeed in being very clear... I didn't mention it as, yes, the category already exists, having created it myself, to attempt a 'speedy fix'(!), and because categories aren't strictly renamable, though I suppose we generally speak in terms of doing so. Alai 07:04, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Agree as per nominator and Caerwine. --Mairi 06:53, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: I personally think that "Macao" (the traditional English spelling that has been somehow resurrected by the official use of the PRC and Macao authorities in English) should be preferred to "Macau" when writing in English. After the official Chinese endorsement of the "o" spelling, I think it is a bit absurd to stick to a modern Portuguese form that has been around for less than 100 years in Portuguese and for barely two or three decades in English. If the PRC sticks to "Macao" as the official English name, it is only a matter of time before the mass media start using the traditional English form again. After all, it was official pressure from the PRC which made the English-language media abandon established English spellings like "Peking" or "Tientsin". I will abstain from casting a vote, though, since I think it is important to be consistent and the current article on the place currently has the title "Macau". --AngelRiesgo 14:14, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment: A little thing to clarify: There's little evidence from which we can actually tell whether the Macanese government, or the PRC government in Beijing, is the one who's preferring Macao over Macau in English. And a piece of relevant information, Angel did in the past express his opinion that the current article should be moved (see talk:Macau). :-) — Instantnood 14:32, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment: While it appears that the PRC govt has been fairly consistent in writing "Macao" in English, I am not so sure if you can say the Macau authorities are doing the same thing. Look, for example, at the "About Macau" page in Macau 2005, 4th East Asian Games official site. Macau and Macao appears even in the same paragraph, a situation which would have appeared extremely unprofessional under any other cirsumstance. Whatever the case, wikipedia is not a cystalball. There was opposition in the renaming of Chinese-related articles (Laozi, for eg) to Pinyin on claims that in contemporary usage, non-pinyin versions prevails and saying the "expected predominance of pinyin" is a speculation and not fact. The same thing applies here. Macau is the established spelling in the English mass media and the general English literary world, and unless Macao ever manages to superceed it, the most common spelling should prevail. With or without Chinese pressure.--Huaiwei 15:29, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Comment: Although there is not evidence that the PRC goverment "forced" the media to use the spelling of Macao, as a Macanese, I can feel that this is a truth. In Macau, media having close relationship to Mainland China prefer the spelling of -o. The typical one is Macao daily, see its Website(in Chinese). Media in mainland China prefer Macao to Macau too. Anyway, I just want to say I do not like the spelling of Macao, haha~--HeiChon~XiJun 19:39, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment: Personally, I think the PRC authorities failed to understand how English spelling works (or rather doesn't work) when they tried to mandate Macao. Phonetically speaking, Macao is closer in English (due to the fact that English vowels are different than most European languages) than Macau to representing how the place is pronounced, but English spelling generally considers phonetic differences secondary to the source spelling. It's one of the fundamental things to keep in mind about our quirky spelling. Since English borrowed that name for Macau from the Portugese, it prefers to keep the Portugese spelling instead of what may arguably be a more phonetically correct spelling. It would be far liklier for English to adopt Aomen than Macao as how to spell the place, and even that would require the Chinese authorities to start pushing the Pinyin name instead of the Portugese name. Caerwine 06:40, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
      • " Since English borrowed that name for Macau from the Portugese, it prefers to keep the Portugese spelling.. " The old Portuguese spelling Macao had already been borrowed into English before the Portuguese spelling reform that changed everything -ao- to -au-. It's in fact an anomaly if it's the PRC government to prefer and advocate different spellings (i.e. Macau for Portuguese, Macao for English), since normally it uses the Pinyin spelling for almost all roman letter-based languages. — Instantnood 07:49, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
      • I agree with Instantnood here. "Macao" is the original Portuguese spelling, and it is only very recently that the English-language media started using "Macau". In fact, I think "Macao" is still much more common in the literature about China in English. I've just checked my own copies of Jonathan D. Spence's "The Search for Modern China" and Immanuel C. Y. Hsü's "The Rise of Modern China", and both use the "o" spelling. Besides, an interesting book about Macao in English is "Macao Remembers", published by Oxford University Press in Hong Kong briefly before the handover of sovereignty. It is true that the media (BBC, Reuters, CNN and so on) have favoured the Portuguese spelling during the last few years, but I very much doubt it that anyone can produce any English text printed before 1980 that uses the "u" spelling. That's why I prefer to use "Macao" in English. It's the name that has been used for centuries in English and now the PRC also uses it officially, so I can't see the rationale for using a Portuguese modern spelling that has become common in the press only for twenty years or so. Although this is not really relevant here, the Portuguese name changed from "Macáo" to "Macau" in the spelling reform approved by the Portuguese government in 1911, and which took a few years to catch on (in fact, I think the Brazilians didn't adopt the changes until the Portuguese-Brazilian spelling accords of 1931). You can see the old Portuguese spelling "Macáo" in this Portuguese text, which uses pre-1911 orthography.--AngelRiesgo 11:37, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
        • Never assume. I have a 1961 National Geographic map of Southeast Asia (19 years before your putative doubt) that uses Macau three separate times, once on the main map, once for the city on an inset of Macau and Hong Kong, and once again for the whole colony on that same inset. Caerwine 16:25, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
          • Fair enough, my 1980 date was just a guess. It would be interesting to know when the main newspapers in the English-speaking world changed from one spelling to the other. Anyway, I don't think this issue is so important. The main reason why I have taken part in the debate on the spelling of Macao/u is because some people here seem to think that "Macau" with a u is a centuries-old spelling in English, and I just wanted to point out that this is not the case at all. --AngelRiesgo 18:19, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
            • Further than that, English is among the few exceptions of roman-letter based languages that the spelling of Macao/u has been influenced by the 1910 Portuguese spelling reform. — Instantnood 20:26, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: The discussion over the spelling variants of category:colour and category:color is relevant here, and may apply as a precedance. — Instantnood 17:15, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Why would this be a precedent for this instance? Color is the invariable use in the US, an English-speaking country; colour the invariable spelling in the UK (and many others), also an English-speaking country. A convention exists to preserve such usages, not to validate variance in usage in cases like this: a region in which English is not an official language, and where the prevalent usage in English is clearly in the other direction. Alai 07:04, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Spelling variants do not necessarily follow political boundaries, though they do very often. — Instantnood 08:24, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
    • How is this relevant? If the template and category had been created according to procedure, they would have been created as {{Macau-stub}} and Cat:Macau stubs. Clearly we should not adopt any convention that rewards people in name disputes who act contrary to settled policy over how stub creation should proceed. Caerwine 07:25, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
      • That may be procedurally correct superficially, but it fails to handle the matter of spelling variants in an appropriate manner. Even worse many of the arguments were based on not entirely true assumptions. — Instantnood 08:24, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Note to whoever closes this debate: the vote as at 08:50, 10 November 2005 (UTC) is Macau 5, Macao 1, with one abstention from someone who seems to favour the Macao spelling. Whether this is regarded as 5-1 or 5-2, it is still enough to make Macau-stub the name. Re-voting should be reconsidered iff the article name is changed to Macao (as has been suggested). Grutness...wha? 08:50, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

November 3rd[edit]

{{Geelong-stub}} / Cat:Geelong stubs[edit]

Created today without going through process. Had over 60 stubs, but once those which should have been marked Victoria-geo-stub (which is hardly big enough to split) were removed, it was down to seven, all of which were easily classifiable elsewhere. No wikiproject, and as such the precedent of US cities and states, UK counties, etc, with no wikiprojects should apply. In other words, delete. Grutness...wha? 05:51, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

  • del we got rid of delaware-stub and all the other aussie places have projects. BL kiss the lizard 05:55, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Category:Monaco-related stubs[edit]

Empty. All stubs are in Category:Monaco stubs. --TheParanoidOne 20:34, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Can be speedied in 24 hours' time, then :) Grutness...wha? 00:00, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

{{Hebrides-geo-stub}} / Cat:Hebrides geography stubs[edit]

Created out of process, this cuts across several categories and will be empty very shortly. This category covers both the Inner and Outer Hebrides - the Outer Hebrides are covered by {{WesternIsles-geo-stub}} and the Inner Hebrides are all covered by either {{Argyll-geo-stub}} or {{Inverness-geo-stub}}. Grutness...wha? 13:13, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Strong Keep since it is not always easy to work out which of these it fits into. There are literally hundreds of Hebridean islands, and however many else on there. The inner Hebrides are NOT all covered by Inverness and Argyll, but that's another matter. --MacRusgail 16:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
    • According to the article on Inverness-shire it covers all the Inner Hebrides that aren't part of Argyll and Bute. Which ones aren't covered? Grutness...wha? 23:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep (for now) Hebrides is a highly logical and universally understood geographic designation, unlike the cats that are proposed to replace it. Point of Information: The following are not part of the Lieutenancy area of Inverness-shire or Argyll and Bute (see Lieutenancy areas of Scotland):

I assume that the confusion has arisen because the map Grutness inserted at Category:Scotland geography stubs is not of Lieutenancy areas, but of the so-called "traditional counties". I repeat: this whole exercise in using the (highly obscure) lieutenancy areas is bound to cause confusion. It is just so archaic. Your average Scot will not even have heard of the existence of a Lord Lieutenant, and they will certainly not know or care which lieutenancy area they are in, especially as they do not correspond to any system of local government that has ever existed, at any time..

I can assure you that absolutely no-one in a certain part of "Inverness-shire" (sic) lieutenancy area would ever use that descriptor for their districts: Ardnamurchan, Sunart,Ardgour and Morvern - all split off long-ago from Argyll. In fact the same goes for the whole of Lochaber: people in Fort William, Scotland, Kinlochleven, Mallaig etc say they are from Lochaber, not "Inverness-shire". And the same is even more true in Badenoch and Strathspey: Kingussie people would think you mad if you dared to describe their district as part of "Inverness-shire" (have you ever had a shinty stick wrapped around your head?).

The modern highlander thinks rather in terms of the 8 area committees of Highland Council (which are just a continuation of the District Councils, 1975-1996):

But as these are too small at the moment, then I propose that we split Scotland by the modern 32 unitary authorities, which are universally understood: Subdivisions of Scotland.

(Incidentally Grutness: you asked on another page why I did not contribute to the Scotland-splitting debate in a more timely fashion, thus perhaps helping to prevent this dash down an obscure track. Answer: I was moving house. Sorry I did not submit an absence note.)--Mais oui! 09:17, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

    • Comment The map used at Category:Scotland geography stubs is a copy of the one at Lieutenancy areas of Scotland, to which I added the islands of Orkney and Shetland. I know this because I copied it myself. A quick glance at the boundary between Argyll & Bute and Inverness would show that, similarly the lack of boundary between Lewis and Harris. As far as what is too small and what is not, of the remaining un-subcategorised stubs, the largest section is for Ross and Cromarty, which is not far short of splittable size itself. There was confusion on my part, in that I looked up the Inverness-shire rather than Inverness article, but given that Skye and Raasay are not part of Inverness but rather part of Ross and Cromarty, that area is also likely to be of splittable size -hich should take care almost all the remaining Hebrides stubs. As to "no modern Higlander would describe themselves..." it must simply be that all the Highlanders I know are ancient. (and do, I haven't had a shinty stick wrapped around my head, but it's only a couple of years since I had one hit my shin, and it's bloody painful! Grutness...wha? 09:47, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Despite the above lack of consensus, this is now empty, aside from the template, so I'll go ahead and delete it (in a further 24 hours just to be ultra-safe), unless there are truly pointed objections. Alai 06:15, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

November 4th[edit]

Category:Pitcairn-related stubs[edit]

Empty. All stubs are in Category:Pitcairn stubs. Grutness...wha? 01:05, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Delete doktorb 08:59, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

{{Ireland-place-stub}} (redirect)[edit]

Since the deletion of Canada-place-stub, Ireland is now the only place in the world to have a "place-stub", albeit as a reidrect to the more regularly named {{Ireland-geo-stub}}. Delete. Grutness...wha? 06:53, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete --Snalwibma 10:27, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: There are still tons of articles tagged with this place-stub. Anyone want to help empty it out so it's ready for this deletion? Tedernst 18:06, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
    • whats wrong with using the bot? BL kiss the lizard 05:00, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Hopefully nothing, as it's replacing them now. Including ones that humans would likely miss, unless they wanted to go thru everything on Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Ireland-geo-stub to check for ones that actually use Ireland-place-stub... --Mairi 01:54, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

{{The Simpsons stub}} and {{The Simpsons-stub}} (redirects)[edit]

Unused malformed redirect of {{Simpsons-stub}}. Simpsons-stub is useful enough, but this...? Delete Grutness...wha? 06:53, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete Non standard name with those spaces, tho I could see having a {{TheSimpsons-stub}} since the actual title of the show is The Simpsons and not just Simpsons. Caerwine 17:10, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment There's also now the redirect {{The Simpsons-stub}} that, while slightly better, should probably share the same fate. --Mairi 01:47, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I've added that one, too. It's still badly formed, with a space. And it's not needed. We don't have {{The US-geo-stub}} or {{The NFL-stub}}, why should we have {{The Simpsons-stub}}? Grutness...wha? 05:25, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Delete both even though that's a poor comparison. The word "The" is an article that couples with the word "Simpsons" and not "stub". Because both the Portal and the main article begin with "The", the thinking followed that any variables from templates generated from those pages (like the WikiProject subst page) would auto-create the stub name {{The Simpsons-stub}}. But, looking back on the rules, the stub names don't follow the rules, and they're confusing, and people looking for the stub will just have to know the stub naming rules. Meanwhile, someone deleted the Bart icon on the real {{simpsons-stub}} because it was a copyright vio, which made me sad, and confused. And I know, I shouldn't have indented this paragraph, but it's both a vote and a reply. You all and your rules ;) —Fitch 05:44, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
        • Comment: The analogy I made also related the definite article to the subject of the stub, not to the stubs themselves. People don't live in United States and watch NFL - they live in the United States and watch the NFL. Grutness...wha? 06:00, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
          • Comment but people don't watch the Simpsons, they watch The Simpsons. Caerwine 00:50, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

November 5th[edit]

Cat:Netherlands-related stubs -> Cat:Netherlands stubs[edit]

With the sorting out caused by the creation of {{Netherlands-hist-stub}}, this one's down to 24 stubs at the moment, so this would be a good time to change this. I know there's lots more these that could be proposed, but I'm only going to propose stuff I'm actually willing to do the restubbing on for now. Caerwine 04:59, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Go for. In fact, since the new names have already been agreed on, I don't think anyone would complain if you'd been bold and made the switch, then listed this as "empty" (note that there are several like that in this page...) Grutness...wha? 05:18, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I have enough stuff on my to do list that I'm perfectly willing to wait a week, so I didn't feel like being bold here. Caerwine 06:48, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
  • As a Dutchman, I say go for it ;) Aecis praatpaal 00:24, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

New category is created, and the old one is depopulated. Caerwine 22:01, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


Used on <20 articles. Initially seems useful, to alleviate the overburdened Television stubs (at 13 pages) but it has many problems with it.

Feeds into two categories - Television stubs and the non-existent Television episode stubs. The latter could be created, but it has no associated non-stub category. This has existed in the past, but been deleted 4 times already. I say we put this out of its misery and delete it, and move the articles back to tv-stub. --TheParanoidOne 00:02, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually it's Cat:Television episodes that's been deleted, not Cat:Television episode stubs. In any case, this one probably isn't needed yet - the articles in it can be easily markjed with TV-program-stub or whatever it's called. Grutness...wha? 00:52, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I guess my "This has existed ..." was a bit ambiguous. I was talking about the associated non-stub category ie. "Television episodes", as per the two links. --TheParanoidOne 10:54, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Keep Articles about individual episodes often need attention somehow (they are often created by anon IPs) so this is a good way of bringing them to the attention of editors in this area. The JPS 09:19, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
del if a parent categorys not needed then a stub category shouldnt be either. BL kiss the lizard 01:20, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Delete; in addition to the above reasons, I wouldn't think there'd be too many editors who work just on articles about individual episodes, and not the series they're part of. --Mairi 01:27, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

XX-politician-stub renames[edit]

All use postal abbreviations for US states, and are ambiguous. Worth keeping given the size of {{US-politician-stub}} but rename:

--Mairi 02:58, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


-Mairi 04:25, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Are there any specific ones you think would be too small? {{US-politician-stub}} is quite large (13 pages). Hawaii and Nevada are the oens I'd have the most doubts about, and after looking at just the size of the main categories (which is likely to be quite inaccurate), Hawaii seems possible and Nevada seems doubtful. But it's hard to tell what's in {{US-politician-stub}} right now, so I'd rather see them kept until we can get that split more and have a better idea. --Mairi 04:36, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
  • rename them all Jamie 10:36, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I have renamed the 21 items proposed by Mairi and moved this to the "To Orphan" section so that the redirects can be depopulated and deleted. --TheParanoidOne 13:16, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Well, there weren't that many, so I migrated all the redirects (except for NY), so they can be deleted. Given how small the categories are, though, I wouldn't be surprised to see them back here for complete deletion. --TheParanoidOne 11:05, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

{{UNMIK}}, {{Republik of Kosova}} / Cat:Kosovo stub[edit]

Irregularly named, controversial, used on 30 articles since April. Delete. Conscious 07:02, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

The names are appalling, so at the very least a rename, but this would be messy and hard to keep npov. I can see articles being edit-warred back and forth between this, Serbia-stub and Albania-stub if it's kept. For that reason, i'd say delete. Can be revisited if it ever becomes independent. Grutness...wha? 10:17, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Where should the articled be moved after this stub type deletion, then? I'd slightly favour Serbia-stub (and Serbia-geo-stub). Conscious 13:56, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Technically, it is still part of Serbia, and the Kosovo categories are subcats of the Serbia categories (including the main Cat:Kosovo), so yes, that would be the plan. Grutness...wha? 04:27, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

November 7th[edit]

{{Fi;m-stub}} (redirect)[edit]

Currently unused. I can't see this being particularly useful, as mispelling "Film" as "Fi;m" would be rather obvious, if it even happens often. Delete --Mairi 05:42, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Support deletion. Deryck C. 09:32, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
speedy as typo. Aecis praatpaal 10:13, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't think it qualifies as a typo as it was created in the past couple days as a redirect. Altho I doubt there'd be much complaint if it did get speedied... --Mairi 19:54, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Speedy delete It's an obvious type (and for me a fairly frequent typo). However, unlike article names, there's no reason to keep typo variants for any templates. Caerwine 20:25, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
delete, speedily if posible, as a speling misrake. Grutness...wha? 08:54, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Speedy. Need I say more.--May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| r 3 $ |-| t |-|) 15:08, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
delete, speedy even... Jamie 10:34, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Delete, of course. Alai 18:44, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

November 8th[edit]

{{AM-stub}} & {{FM-stub}}[edit]

These two stubs currently feed independently into Cat:Broadcasting stubs. As part of a proposed reorganiztion of radio stubs, it is recommended that these two stubs be deleted and that ant articles using them be restubbed with {{radio-station-stub}}. Caerwine 21:59, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

  • agreed. Radio needs reorganising, and these two are past their use-by date. Grutness...wha? 01:15, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Delete. Alai 04:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Cat:Radio programme stubs[edit]

Currently the category that {{radio-stub}} feeds into. As part of a proposed reorganiztion of radio stubs, it is recommended that {{radio-stub}} feed into a new category Cat:Radio stubs and that existing stubs be restubbed either with a null edit or with {{radio-show-stub}}. Caerwine 21:59, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

  • good point. I created this without even thinking about the spelling (here in NZ, "program" always refers to computer software and nothing else). "Radio show" gets around that. And the template is much more general. Grutness...wha? 01:15, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Agree. Alai 04:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

{{.NET-stub}} / .NET stubs[edit]

Used on a grand total on one stub article. A Wikiproject exists but it doesn't seem to have been touched since towards the end of September. (It appears to have been created at the start of September). --TheParanoidOne 23:57, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete: not useful, way underpopulated and not growing --Alynna 02:27, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete Grutness...wha? 06:38, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete; at least there is a second article that would go here: .NET Reflector. Courtland 05:29, 11 November 2005 (UTC)


No category. Only used on four articles. If deleted, articles should be moved to {{SouthAm-bio-stub}} (which has <25 articles). --TheParanoidOne 23:46, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. merge and delete. Grutness...wha? 06:38, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Merge and Delete --Mcsee 13:55, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


Delete. Used on only one article and feeds into Category:Canada-related stubs rather than its own. --TheParanoidOne 23:24, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete iff there is no Manitoba WikiProject. If there is, fix it. Grutness...wha? 06:38, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
  • there isnt so delete BL kiss the lizard 02:14, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Rename {{news-stub}} → {{newspaper-stub}}[edit]

The abreviation is a bit confusing since the stub deals only with newspapers and not TV news programs, news magazines, news events, etc. Cat:Journalism stubs was recently discovered and it along with a {{journalism-stub}} would be much better for a broader news stub. Caerwine 19:42, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Rename as proposed. — Fingers-of-Pyrex 20:17, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
  • rename Grutness...wha? 01:15, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
  • rename --Cyclopia 09:49, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename as proposed. jareha 18:23, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename --Michalis Famelis 18:50, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
  • rename I was actually just thinking that when I tried {{newspaper-stub}} and it didn't work. --W.marsh 01:24, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Speedy renamed. Ral315 (talk) 02:16, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan stub categories[edit]

This one's a complex one, so bear with me...

  1. I've just manually changed over Cat:Kazakhstan-related stubs and Cat:Kyrgyzstan-related stubs to Cat:Kazakhstan stubs and Cat:Kyrgyzstan stubs, as per our policy on "-related" names. While doing that, I was bold and changed {{Kazakh-stub}} to {{Kazakhstan-stub}}, since Kazakh is the race, not the place. So we now have two empty categories and an unused redirect, which could easily be deteled.
  2. But do we need either category? In close to six months, Cat:Kazakhstan stubs has gained eight stubs, and Cat:Kyrgyzstan stubs has gained nine in nearly eight months. There is a very small Cat:Central Asia-related stubs category which wouldn't be swamped if we deleted both of these categories, too.

Grutness...wha? 09:45, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Merge into Central Asia. Caerwine 16:17, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep It is not doing any other categories or stub categories any harm; indeed, it is very likely to do the articles themselves a lot of good.--Mais oui! 18:57, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
  • merge into central asia. a lot of the culture in that area overlaps the country borders anyway, so why not have it in one small catagory rather than several? BL kiss the lizard 04:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Redirect to Central Asia. It's not at all likely to do the articles much good to be in a category this small -- out of sight, out of mind. That's the whole point of having a threshold for stub type creation. (And why I'd favour this being "hard coded" into stub deletion policy, so we don't have to re-debate it what seems like every other time.) Alai 04:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

November 9th[edit]

{{Docu-stub}} and its redirects[edit]

Before we start, let me state that I have no objection to their being a stub for documentaries. I would, however, like to see it renamed to {{Documentary-stub}} rather than {{Docu-stub}}, since the current name could just as easily refer to documents. What I object to, though, is not one, but seven redirects - {{Docu stub}}, {{Docu stubs}}, {{Docu-stubs}}, {{Documentary stub}}, {{Documentary-stub}}, {{Documentary-stubs}}, and {{Documentary stubs}}, which strikes me as carpet bombing. Rename the template to {{Documentary-stub}}, and erase the rest. Grutness...wha? 08:54, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Agreement on the renaming, Strong agreement on deleting the other six redirects, Neutral on deleting {{docu-stub}} once it's a redirect. I see the potential for confusion, but it's extremely minor in my opinion. Caerwine 16:17, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment; is this just for film documentaries, or does it include television (and radio) ones too? It's a child of Category:Film stubs which would suggest the former; but it's other parent is Category:Documentaries and not Category:Documentary films. I'd be inclined to go with just films, as then it doesn't cut across other categories. --Mairi 19:52, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Mmm. Good point. i'd assumed it was about television documentaries. Perhaps this needs to be looked at and considered for splitting. Grutness...wha? 01:15, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete existing redirects, Rename, but keep the new redirect. Alai 04:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


No category. Used on only three stubs which seem to cut across the existing stub type hierarchy. --TheParanoidOne 23:31, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Potentially useful if enough stubs can be found, but you are correct in that it doesn't fall within our current kingdom based division of biology-stub. With only three stubs tagged and no category, delete until someone can do a proper proposal on it. Caerwine 05:56, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

From what I've seen in my short time on Wikipedia, most people work within the confines of a single biological kingdom, so each article gets a focus in one kingdom. It would be really nice to see more articles cut across these groups, particularly in areas of physiology, but I'm afraid it's unlikely to happen. If no one is using the stub, then there's not really a reason to have it. Pity, though. -- EncycloPetey 14:29, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
it can always be made again later if theres a need for it but at the moment its not that useful. BL kiss the lizard 02:14, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Redirect {{East-Slavic-History-stub}}[edit]

This redirect with the irregular capitalization was corrected to {{East-Slavic-history-stub}} the day of its creation back in March and is unused. We've left the latter alone to see if it will grow into something worthwhile, but the redirect is getting 0 use, so we might as well delete it now. Caerwine 20:52, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete. Actually, change the name of the other one to {{East-Slavic-hist-stub}}, while we're at it. Grutness...wha? 01:15, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete Tedernst 07:27, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete and rename, respectively. Alai 04:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

November 10th[edit]

Category:Qatar-related stubs[edit]

Empty. All stubs in Category:Qatar stubs. --TheParanoidOne 21:51, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

this too can be speedied if it's been deprecated more than 24 hours. Grutness...wha? 23:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

{{Ontario-gov-stub}} / Ontario government stubs[edit]

Contained two stubs when it was discovered in September. Still contains only two stubs. These two could easily be added to the parent {{Canada-gov-stub}}, even though it is at <800 stubs. --TheParanoidOne 21:09, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Agree about deletion, though something may eventually need to be done with the parent. Grutness...wha? 23:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Alot of the ones in the parent still need to be sorted into {{Canada-constituency-stub}}. --Mairi 01:29, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Heavens no--redirect, don't just delete. It's a logical stub. Matt Yeager 06:16, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

{{Inca-stub}} / Inca-related stubs[edit]

Another one for pruning. This one has had <10 articles for at least 5 months, as per this diff and this diff. Where to put the articles is not as clear cut as the previously pruned stub types. They could go into the parent ({{ethno-stub}}) but that is currently at 5 pages, so some intermediate stub type might be more suitable. --TheParanoidOne 20:56, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Delete; the stubs it's used on aren't about ethnic groups, they're either provinces/regions, towns or a biography and could get stubbed as such. --Mairi 23:11, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Ah, that's good. I didn't look at the contents of the stubs in this case. I just went by the stub types hierarchy. --TheParanoidOne 06:18, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Delete. Not needed now we've got {{Pre-columbian-stub}} (shouldn't that have a capital C?) Grutness...wha? 23:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Delete and {{pre-Columbian-stub}} is a redirect to {{pre-columbian-stub}} IIRC. Caerwine 23:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

{{Stub-stub}} / Category:Stub stubs[edit]

And the similar {{Stub-Stub}}. Probably created as joke; serves no useful purpose. Delete. --Mairi 23:21, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

remember that nonsense can be speedied... Grutness...wha? 23:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

{{Calif-stub}} and {{Calif-geo-stub}} (redirects)[edit]

{{Calif-stub}} is a redirect of {[tl|California-stub}} used by 80 articles; {{Calif-geo-stub}} is a no longer used redirect of {{California-geo-stub}}. Neither are needed - delete. Grutness...wha? 06:38, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Goodbye. BlankVerse 13:40, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I just removed the links from the last articles using {{Calif-stub}}. There are only non-article links now. Delete. Mike Dillon 07:55, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I just noticed that {{Calif-geo-stub}} is still being used although Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Calif-geo-stub doesn't show the pages. I just found the template used on San Diego Bay and Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton. Looks like some kind of MediaWiki bug... Mike Dillon 08:13, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure it's a bug, it seems to be how all [template] redirects are handled now (I wonder if it also somewhat fixes the server-load problem of redirects); I'd mentioned it a few days ago on the talk page here. It's not too hard to find & replace all those by bot tho... --Mairi 08:23, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
The strange thing is, Special:Whatlinkshere seemed to work with {{Calif-stub}}, which was set up the same way as {{Calif-geo-stub}} as far as I can tell. Mike Dillon 16:23, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I just did a spot check on California Department of Corrections and it is still using {{Calif-stub}} as well. Here's what seems to be happening: 1) if the template was used when {{Calif-stub}} was the main template, it will be in Whatlinkshere; 2) if the template was used when {{Calif-stub}} was a pure redirect, it won't be in Whatlinkshere; 3) not sure about the current situation with the template inclusion. So, there are probably still more uses of the stub out there. Mike Dillon 16:31, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep; no reason to delete. --SPUI (talk) 20:54, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
  • delete doesnt fit in with the naming conventions which is a very good reason to delete. BL kiss the lizard 02:14, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
  • delete it should be redundant. BUT I just fixed half a dozen articles that used them. (And "what links here" doesn't seem to work reliably for template inclusion; needed to resort to a search...) Jamie 10:02, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
  • delete. (just found another one - Coarsegold, California). -Willmcw 10:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep; redirects are cheap. Matt Yeager 06:50, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
    • stub template redirects arent. read the talk page ~ 08:21, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

November 11th[edit]

{{Cheerleading-stub}} / Cheerleading stubs[edit]

Added to the Discovery page on 20th September. Used on only 5 stubs, but as mentioned on the Discovery page, most of them are related to sports mascots. The only that I can see that is relevant is Pompom. --TheParanoidOne 21:05, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete. — Fingers-of-Pyrex 02:44, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
  • We don't need this one. In fact, we've never needed this one. Delete. Grutness...wha? 03:35, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
  • While there's a number of potential stubs, for instance if I'd really been interested, I could have started a stub article today using the results from this year's state cheerleading championships, the pedia obviously doesn't have them yet. Sports mascots would clearly belong in this category if kept. So Delete for now and place as a subcat of Cat:Sports stubs if needed in the future. Caerwine 07:18, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


Added to Discovery page on September 20th. Redlink category. Only used on one stub. --TheParanoidOne 20:31, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

{{SEAsian-history-stub}} / no category[edit]

From the stubberg. No category; used on 0 articles; even if needed, should be {{SEAsia-hist-stub}}. In order to save the stub, it is necessary to destroy it. Caerwine 00:47, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

This one might be useful, but if it is it looks like we'd need to start from scratch anyway, so delete this one, too. Grutness...wha? 00:51, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

{{Galician-stub}} / no category[edit]

From the stubberg. Had a redlink category Cat:Galiza-related stubs, but I removed that when I added the SfD notice. Used on one article by the creator of the stub. This one has so many problems, it's not funny. First there was the -related. Second there's the fact that the stub uses a unofficial variant name for Spanish Galicia: Galiza, which has as its sole major virtue at this time that it avoids the third problem of differentiating between Spanish Galicia and the Ukraino-Polish Galicia of the same name. Finally, it uses the adjective form instead of the noun form.

Even if such a stub should be desirable it will need a better name. Please let's delete this ASAP. Caerwine 00:20, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Too many problems. Delete it. Grutness...wha? 00:51, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Redirects {{us-bcast-stub}}, {{us-bio-stub}}, {{us-poli-stub}}, {{us-rail-stub}}, and {{Us bio stub}}[edit]

From the stubberg. All four are redirects to the same stub but with US- instead of us-. Recommend that we dELETE these four mis-capitalized stubs. Caerwine 00:01, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm all in favour of that. delete. I've also added another one to the list, {{Us bio stub}}. Grutness...wha? 00:51, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete all violations of stub-naming convention -- {{Us bio stub}} is the biggest failure here, no dashes! 13:22, 11 November 2005 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wcquidditch (talkcontribs)
  • Delete all. BlankVerse 14:00, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Holy fucking keep. No reason to delete. --SPUI (talk) 20:50, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
  • delete or ill make {{them-bio-stub}} since none of those stubs are about us. BL kiss the lizard 02:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete all. — Fingers-of-Pyrex 02:47, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I do NOT think that those 5 should go, especially BCast! I am working on a MAJOR project to add television stations to market repositories. It was ME who helped complete the Phoenix TV category, and now I'm going through Tucson and Chicago. -TrackerTV, working hard to complete the television broadcast department of Wikipedia
    • So use {{US-bcast-stub}}. It's only the redirect that we're talking of getting rid of. BTW, I'm impressed that you completed those categorries, since your vote here is TrackerTV's first edit on Wikipedia. Grutness...wha? 23:46, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep - I see no reason to delete potentially useful redirects. The fact is, not everybody is familiar with stub-naming conventions, even though we'd like them to be, and redirects take up very little space. We want people to use stub categories, then we get finicky about misspellings? Delete those, and they'll just get created again, probably malformed too, instead of the nice neat redirects they ought to be. Article redirects from incorrect capitalizations don't get summarily deleted; why should stub redirects be different? Perhaps this has already been discussed at great length - if anyone's kind enough to point me to the discussion, I'd be grateful. -GTBacchus(talk) 17:39, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Abstain - I'm far less convinced about these than I was about the others, but per discussion with Grutness, I withdraw my "keep" vote. -GTBacchus(talk) 17:59, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep all but {{us bio stub}}. This seems to be borne of some sort of misguided OCD to have everything "right and proper" rather than of any actual desire to improve things. Unless you want to delete all stub redirects of all types, keep them - SoM 18:21, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep; potentially useful. Matt Yeager 06:53, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comments I'm leaning more toward delete but I can see the value of the redirects (like {{train-stub}} redirecting to {{rail-stub}}) for newbie editors or those who choose not to follow capitalization standards. I've updated those that had {{us-rail-stub}} to use more appropriate stub templates (a few of them should have used {{US-depot-stub}}). slambo 15:37, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
    • That's a different matter entirely - we have several redirects that are from alternative words and there's no suggestion of deleting them. For example, we have {{car-stub}} as a redirect to {{auto-stub}}. But we wouldn't have {{tr-stub}} (with "tr" being short for train), because other things could be abbreviated to tr. There's a difference between a redirect from an alternative word to a redirect from a potentially ambiguous abbreviation or miscapitalisation. Grutness...wha? 01:18, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

November 12th[edit]

{{UK-knight-stub}} / Cat:British knight stubs[edit]

Magnificently sweeps across the various occupation categories for British people, since people can get knighthoods for just about any prominent service. For the same reason, it's unlikely that the same group of editors would be able to deal with stubs on people with career paths as divergent as, say Sir Winston Churchill and Sir Mick Jagger. Only used on four articles, which is a bit of a joke in itself. Delete. Grutness...wha? 04:02, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

{{pay-stub}} (redirect)[edit]

This is just a redirect to {{Econ-stub}} and looks like it was created as a joke. (It may be related to the {tl|stub-stub}} discussion below.) It does not seem to be in use (though an earlier version of the Pay stub article used it, then used {{stub-stub}}, which I changed to {{econ-stub}}). Jamie 10:26, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete, pointless. Alai 18:26, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Pinkslip it. Caerwine 21:18, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


As the name suggests, a sectstub, but without the logo. No category, either, come to that. And it's unused. Either we want sectstubs to have logos or not - if we want them with logos, we should delete this. If we want them without, we should change {[tl|sectstub}} and delete this. Either way... Grutness...wha? 04:02, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete... I created it and wasn't aware that when I created it I needed to add it into a category. I used it in a Pokémon article which had a blank in it that has now presumably been expanded to not use it anymore. Deskana 14:31, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete, as per impeccable dilemmatic reasoning of nom, and speedy it, given agreement of the creator. Alai 18:26, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I didn't fail Logic 101 for nothing, you know! :) (which means, I suppose, that I did fail it for something... I wonder what...) Grutness...wha? 07:58, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
    • What a logical statement... though since it is so logical... it's almost illogical! Or not. But I think it is! Deskana 20:07, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


A stub for places where there are knights that go... erm, no, it's a miscapitalised NI-geo-stub. As per the us and uk ones below, this should go. Used on a massive two articles, both now re-stubbed with NI-geo-stub (which might do well with a rename itself sometime...). Grutness...wha? 04:02, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete. If we're going to use semi-cryptic abbreviations, they might as well be correctly capitalised. Alai 18:26, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

November 13th[edit]

Cat:Åland-related stubs | Cat:Faroe Islands-related stubs | Cat:Helsinki-related stubs | Cat:Latvia-related stubs | Cat:Slovenia-related stubs[edit]

All five categories have been orphaned in favor of a category of the same name but without the "-related", so delete. Caerwine 01:35, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

  • 24 hours, then speedy. Grutness...wha? 07:49, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

{{Florida-bio-stub}} & Cat:Floridian people stubs[edit]

Only 1 stub, and save for the politicians we're trying to avoid a geo based split of the US bios for now, so delete. Caerwine 01:13, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Agreed. We're not splitting by state except for politicians, so why keep this? Grutness...wha? 07:49, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete, and then delete again, just to make sure. Alai 04:20, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
  • What is the alternative for politicians? I've added a few recently with this stub, but can revert them back to bio-stub. --Mcmillen76 00:19, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

November 14th[edit]

{{SP-stub}} (redirect)[edit]

This is an unused redirect to {{SouthPark-stub}}, although by its name it could be just about anything. Delete Grutness...wha? 11:59, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete. My first guesss was SP = Southern Pacific Railroad. BlankVerse 16:57, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Caerwine 21:31, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete, excessively ambiguous and cryptic. Alai 06:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete, my first guess was Socialist Party. Aecis praatpaal 10:09, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete, too ambiguous --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Cat:Georgia politician stubsCat:Georgia (U.S. state) politician stubs[edit]

This needs to be cleaned up from the recent renaming of the U.S. state politician stubs. While it will likely be a long time before we need a stub for politicans from the country of Georgia, best to clear this up now, while the category is amall, and hopefully this can be speedied. The new name was chosen to parallel that of the existing Cat:Georgia (U.S. state) geography stubs. Caerwine 01:16, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Rename. Not clear there's a basis for this to be speedied, though perhaps there should be (hint, hint). Alai 04:00, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename for clarity/consistency --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


Currently an unlikely redirect to {{Maryland-politician-stub}}. Not needed or used, and a separate Maryland Governor stub would likely never get to 60 stubs (even counting the colonial period, there have only been 91 people who have held the post of governor of Maryland, and many of the recent ones have full articles). Delete Grutness...wha? 11:59, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. Caerwine 21:31, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete, badly named, to boot. Alai 06:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. What you said.
  • Delete per nom --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Redirects {{Art stub}}, {{Canadian law-stub}}, {{Cycling stub}}, {{Education stub}}, {{Opera singer-stub}}, {{Politics of argentina stub}}, {{Tea stub}}, {{Texas stub}}, {{Tv-char stub}}, {{Uncategorized stub}}, {{United States Armed Forces-stub}}, {{United States-stub}}[edit]

From the stubberg. All twelve of these redirects have spaces in their names and point to stub templates that follow our naming conventions. Recommend that we delete these. Caerwine 05:44, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete all, especially {{Uncategorized stub}} especially ASAP, please. What a horribly useless invention, and it's appearing in Category:Stubs, just to make things worse. I think I'll go neuter it somehow, just to get it out of there... -GTBacchus(talk) 06:50, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment That's a side effect of sending it to sfd, since that requires replacing the #REDIRECT with {{'s Caerwine 06:56, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Well, it's clipped now. Anyway, I retract my delete vote on all the others (besides {{Uncategorized stub}} - *shudder*) until I'm told what the point is in deleting useful redirects, leaving blank space where someone will just come along and recreate them anyway, and probably get it wrong then and not think to redirect to the right place. Therefore, it's keep for 11, delete for 1. -GTBacchus(talk) 17:50, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
        • Vote changed. I'm gonna trust Grutness on this point, which is to say, I'll follow Grutness in trusting Wikipedians to learn the stub-naming conventions. We'll see what happens. GTBacchus(talk) 17:21, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete these. A cyberwaste of cyberspace. Grutness...wha? 10:15, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep all redirects. --SPUI (talk) 17:19, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment Redirects of templates are a waste of server resources and the idea is to get all templates to follow a single standard format for their name. The format that has been chosen uses no spaces. Once we get all templates standardized, the confusion will be substantially reduced. In addition, {{Canadian law-stub}} and {{Politics of argentina stub}} have other problems besides the spaces, but since that was sufficient I didn't bother to list that before. Caerwine 21:31, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment - Ok, I hear that argument, but what about this: we already have problems with people creating stub templates, with or without the accompanying categories, and we have to find them later in /Discoveries, and delete them, or something. If you delete these redirects, the next time someone types {{Art stub}}, they'll get a non-existent one. Then they'll react one of two ways: find the proper title for art stubs, or go ahead and create a template at {{Art stub}}. Since we can't guarantee that someone won't choose option 2 - in fact, the law of large numbers (not to mention Murphy's Law) guarantees that eventually someone will - then why not keep the redirects, which prevent that problem? All we need is for a bot to go around every few weeks and replace redirecting stubs with the correct ones, which is all under-the-hood work, invisible to readers. Otherwise, we're just creating an eternally regenerating pile of work. Until you can guarantee that everyone who's labelling stubs will use the correctly formatted templates, I can't support the deletion of redirects. That's just asking for trouble. "Once we get all templates standardized, the confusion will be substantially reduced," is the sentence I'm not believing. -GTBacchus (talk) 00:55, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Reply to comment - What you say can be shown to be incorrect just from studying what's happened at WP:WSS and SFD over the last few months. There have been very large numbers of redirects deleted since sfd went live, and apart from SPUI's repeated recreations recently, there have been only two redirects re-created that I 'm aware of. If someone creates a stub redirect, then tries it again and find it's redlinked, they'll almost certainly realise that it has been deleted and try to find out why, rather than re-creating it. The confusion has gone down markedly since we've started standardising the stub names. Grutness 04:44, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • del. BL kiss the lizard 22:38, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Redirects are useful only to a point: they don't aid navigation, and keeping ones that don't follow the naming conventions only aids stub-sorters who, well, don't know the naming conventions, and aids them in continuing to not know them, at that. Likewise, redirects that are hopelessly ambiguous or cryptic are doing no-one any real favours. Obviously there are many cases where redirects are useful, especially for genuine variations in spelling and terminology within a category, but this "no matter what" stuff is getting pretty excessive. Alai 06:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete as per Alai. I could perhaps see how something with spaces (e.g. {{Art stub}}) might be convenient for some people, but I can't see any use for random combinations of hyphens and spaces (e.g. {{tv-char stub}}) or horribly misnamed ones (e.g. {{Politics of argentina stub}}). --Mairi 19:59, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete, especially uncategorized-stub --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Redirect {{CUSD stub}}[edit]

This template isn't used and doesn't redirect to a stub template. I recommend that we delete it. Caerwine 05:20, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Not used and doesn't go anywhere - put it out of its misery. Grutness...wha? 10:15, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

{{Env-stub}} & Cat:Environmental stubs[edit]

These have been discussed over at the discoveries page, and it's been suggested that they should be renamed to {{Environment-stub}} & Cat:Environment stubs. The first is easy enough done, although the former name (now a redirect) probably needs disposing of. Which just leaves the changeover to the new category... Grutness...wha? 01:06, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Agree per nom. Caerwine 06:47, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename as proposed, and delete the redirect. --Mairi 08:06, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

{{SouthAm-hist-stub}} & Cat:South American history stubs | {{LatAm-hist-stub}} & Cat:Latin American history stubs[edit]

Closing note: only LatAm-hist-stub and category were deleted. Mairi 21:24, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I propose to delete or merge with {{LatAm-hist-stub}} & Cat:Latin American history stubs due to overlapping, lack of use, and limited number of possible stubs. Andres C. 05:49, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

  • If we keep either, we should probably keep {{SouthAm-hist-stub}} & Cat:South American history stubs and delete {{LatAm-hist-stub}} & Cat:Latin American history stubs. We've been fairly consistent in viewing the continents as our first level of subdiving the world. Latin America is also somewhat troublesome to define. Does it include the Dutch, English, and Scandanavian colonies south of the United States? What about the Philippines which was administered as part of Spanish America before the 19th century revolutions? So we can have a complete discussion of these two, I'm sending the Latin American ones to SfD as well. Caerwine 06:19, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I agree with Caerwine. Keep SouthAm (which was proposed at WSS/P), delete LatinAm. Definition is problematical. What is "Latin America"? Does it include Guyana? Surinam? Trinidad? Cuba? Texas? We can always make a CentralAm-hist-stub if such is needed later, and it would be in line with geo and bio stub divisions. Grutness...wha? 10:15, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Guilty as charged. I proposed SouthAm at WSS/P a week ago, but yesterday I messed up things by creating both {{SouthAm-hist-stub}} and {{LatAm-hist-stub}}, thinking LatAm would be a better choice by giving a much-need home for a lot of orphan stubs about Central American and Caribbean history. I agree, definining Latin America is problematic. In practice, the term is applied to Spanish-speaking and Portuguese-speaking countries, and leaves aside Surinam,French Guyana, US Virgin Islands, the Bahamas, etc., but the term lends itself to confusion. I propose then: keep {{SouthAm-hist-stub}} & Cat:South American history stubs, and delete {{LatAm-hist-stub}} & Cat:Latin American history stubs. Andres C. 15:52, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep SouthAm, delete LatAm --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Redirects {{Final Fantasy stub}} & {{Final-Fantasy-stub}} | Rename {{Final Fantasy-stub}} → {{FinalFantasy-stub}}[edit]

I think Cid would appreciate it if we got this stub to be properly engineered. Delete the redirect and rename the stub template to lose the space. Caerwine 05:44, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Agree. Go for. Grutness...wha? 10:15, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
  • No. Spaces in the template name are acceptable according to the stub naming guidelines. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 12:56, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment I don't understand the nominator's reason for the renaming. Can someone explain it to me? --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 13:32, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep redirects no matter what happens. --SPUI (talk) 17:18, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment Guideline #1 from the naming guidelines says, "Stub template names should be in the form xx-stub or xx-xx-stub, with the parts separated by hyphens." That means that definitely {{Final Fantasy stub}} violates the naming guidelines. The guidelines are less clear about whether to use {{Final-Fantasy-stub}} or {{FinalFantasy-stub}}, but we've been favoring the latter form of late. Caerwine 21:31, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Argh! Cyberskull for some reason took the mention of the two prefered alteratives as an excuse for addingthem as redirects. I've added an {{sfd-r}} notice to the {{Final-Fantasy-stub}} redirect. Caerwine 02:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete in favour of {{FinalFantasy-stub}}. Alai 06:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • If you ask me this whole thing is needlessly beaurcratic. If that's what the guidelines say, then it should be possible to sort it out without a debate. So what if the result of this debate was keep as it as is? Does that mean the guidelines or voters are wrong? I mean, it's not like this is AfD where it could be disputed if and article has merit. Either it follows the guidelines or doesn't. Frankly, I'm confused as to the point of this debate. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 15:35, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Tell me about it. :/ For exactly this reason, I've suggested that we expand the scope of what's "speediable": see the talk page. Of course, arguably it might be necessary continuing to do a number of these the "bureaucratic" (or non-democratic-centralised...) way, in order to demonstrate that there is (or isn't) an actual operating consensus in favour of such renames. Alai 17:10, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Well, I'm going to offically abstain as I think this debate has little or no point. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 17:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Agree. Definitely rename; the redirects can go also. --Mairi 08:09, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Agree with redirect-deletion and renaming of template --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

November 15th[edit]


Created 3 days ago, used twice, lacks a category. There almost certainly aren't near 50 articles about Bahamian football clubs. Delete. --Mairi 06:26, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

BFA is also belgium bermuda botswana burundi... too confusing. BL kiss the lizard 08:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Delete. There are nowhere near enough articles for a Bermuda football club template. I don't even think there are enough for a {{NorthAm-footyclub-stub}}. Btw, Belgium has the RBFA, not the BFA. Aecis [[User_talk:Aecis|<sup>praatpaal</sup>]] 10:22, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Caerwine 18:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Delete per nom --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

{{Ag-stub}} (redirect)[edit]

Created today as a redirect to {{Agri-stub}} (and probably unused). However, Ag or AG can refer to numerous other things, many of which are more likely than agriculture. Delete. --Mairi 06:11, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Keep I got frustrated beyond belief today trying to figure out what the stub for farming-related articles was while editing an article. I tried "farm-stub", "farming-stub", "agriculture-stub", etc... eventually, I gave up just did "stub" and waited until someone put in "agri-stub". I then made a bunch of redirects so that the stub type might actually be used by someone who isn't a total expert on stubs. Ag (not Agri) is the logical abbreviation for "agriculture". Unless you think that we're about to have a sudden surge of silver-related stubs, there's really nothing else that "Ag" (lowercase "g") is used for. Matt Yeager 06:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
But people don't necessary pay attention to capitalization, as {{Uk-stub}} and Us-*-stub (and your keep votes there) show, so there's little reason this couldn't also refer to Algeria or Antigua and Barbuda, or anything else. --Mairi 07:08, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Mairis right you cant have it both ways. either people use the lower case or they dont. so theres silver, agamemnon, algeria, against, agony, air conditioners, antigua, attourney generals, artificial gravity, assembys of god. but matts right that agri-stub needs renaming too. delete them both and make agriculture-stub. BL kiss the lizard 08:08, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep For me {{ag-stub}} is clear enough, and so is {{agri-stub}} since agri- is often used as a prefix in words such as agribusiness. If one is going to argue that {{ag-stub}} might be confused for Antigua and Barbuda, shal we rename {{ad-stub}} to avoid confusion with Andorra? I also can't see the potential for many silver stubs, even if people are potentially confused. The aggrivation of hypothetical misstubbings is to me outweighed by the convience of having an oft used abbreviated form available. Caerwine 18:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Not to mention that anyone who types in {{ag-stub}} for, oh, Algeria... well, how long do you think it'll take them to see when the page pops up to see that, "hey, that's a farm!"... really, there's nothing realistically that could be confused with it, I believe. And besides, a mistake like that would get corrected in about 10 seconds by anyone who sees it if the original author didn't notice it. Matt Yeager 06:14, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Super strong delete with a bullet. "Agri-" is a standard abbreviation of agriculture, especially as a prefix, as Caerwine says. Ag- is not remotely such. "Ad" is a commonplace abbreviated reference to advert(isement), the cases are in no way comparable. Keep agri-, obviously, contrary to write-in nom. :) Alai 06:36, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Actually where I live, Ag is fairly common. A Google on ag and farm returns over 7 million entries, but I noticed that the first 50 entries (which was as far as I inspected) were all United States and Canadian sites, so I suspect it may be just a North American English thing, which probably explains why Alai is unfamiliar with it. Caerwine 06:52, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Rename to Agriculture-stub, keep agri-stub as a redirect, but delete ag-stub. FWIW, I just did a google scan on Ag. the first thing relating to agriculture was the 42nd item on the list (and there ag is only used once - the rest of the page uses "agri") - there were lots of things relating to attorneys-general, and also lots of things about German companies (in Germany, AG means the same as Inc or Ltd). As Alai points out, we have Ad stub, but ad is a common shorthand term for advertisements. Ag isn't particularly common for agriculture - even in an agriculture-dominated region like where I live. Grutness...wha? 07:13, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
The fact that Google favors Attorney General's instead of agriculture is because Google's not case sensitive (it thinks "AG" is the same as "Ag")--Wikipedia is. On another note, how could anyone have never heard ag before as an abbreviation for "agriculture"? It boggles the mind. In high school, didn't you have "Ag Science" classes?
Just another sign that the world's a big place, I guess... Matt Yeager 02:36, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
As a non-native English speaker, I've never heard ag being used as an abbreviation of agriculture. I did come across agri a lot though. Agri is a lot less ambiguous than ag. I say we delete ag-stub and make agri-stub a redirect to agriculture-stub. Aecis [[User_talk:Aecis|<sup>praatpaal</sup>]] 17:35, 19 November 2005 (UTC) And no, I've never had Ag Science in high school ;)
Those classes are called Agri-sci down here. Mind you, we did used to have the "Ministry of Ag and Fish", and AgResearch is an agricultural research company here. but, as I said, it's not a particularly widely used abbreviation here (and AgResearch is a play on "agri-" anyway). But all that's irrelevant. Neither ag-stub nor agri-stub meet the stub naming guidelines, which say avoid abbreviations. Grutness...wha? 06:37, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Have never ever heard of ag being used as an abbreviation for agriculture. In high school, didn't you have "Ag Science" classes? Um, no. Just another sign that the world's a big place, I guess... Indeed. --TheParanoidOne 11:31, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. If it's a North American thing, it's not one I'm aware of. And it is ambiguous. --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

{{CISSP-stub}}, Cat:CISSP stubs and CISSP-stub[edit]

This one is a bit of a mess. First of all, we've got {{CISSP-stub}}, which was created out of process. This feeds into Cat:CISSP stubs, again created out of process. They don't seem to be very useful. But then we also have the article CISSP-stub, the only article in Category:CISSP stubs, which is a redirect to the category Category:CISSP stubs. Yes, the only article in a stub category is a redirect to the stub category it is in. Aecis [[User_talk:Aecis|<sup>praatpaal</sup>]] 10:18, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I had a word with the people at CSD last time one came up like this, and it seems that cross-namespace things like this are speediable, so I have. I've no idea why the Channel islands should have a branch of the Scottish Socialist Party, but I doubt there'd be 60 stubs for it. Less flippantly, since CISSP itself is a stub - quite reasonably marked standard-stub - this simply isn't needed. There is no main CISSP category, so it shouldn't have a stub category. Mind you, a generalised computer security stub category might be useful... Grutness 12:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

{{Mea-stub}}, Cat:Missing Encyclopedic Articles stubs[edit]

Another odd one. This isn't really a stub template or category, it's just named as one. It a request for expansion. As such, it should surely be named {{Mea-expand}} and Cat:Missing Encyclopedia Articles requests for expansion. The thing is part of the MEA wikiproject, wasn't cleared through WP:WSS, yet bizarrely has the WP:WSS template at the top of the category asking people not to do anything with the category without consulting WP:WSS (a clear case of do what i say not do what I do...). This should be at least renamed, since if it's regarded as a stub template and category it's going to bugger with the hierarchy royally (articles in this category will be from every imaginable stub category), since someone is sooner or later bound to start replacing category stubs with this template, thinking it's more useful stub template. If it's named as an expand template or something similar, it'll be far more likely that people will add it as a supplementary template rather than a replacement.Grutness 12:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Keep. (I'm the creator.) It is a stub notice, not an expansion notice, as it's only applicable for stubs. It's just a useful way for us to keep track of those stubs that are full articles in the Encyclopedia Britannica or World Book or whatever, so that we can go in and expand these. I don't see how it's hurting anything. It's non-hierarchical, true, as it's used in addition to the hierarchical ones. I believe it's useful to have a way of saying "this is a stub that is a full article in another encyclopedia", and a stub-notice seems to me to be the best way to do that. – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 12:58, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
The problem is only the name. If it's called a stub template (e.g., Mea-stub), then it's only a matter of time before people start replacing hierarchical stub templates with it (I've already had to replace one of the "real" stub templates on one of the articles in that category, so it's clearly not only being used as an addition). As far as I can see it, there are two options - renaming it so that this is less likely to happen, or deleting it entirely because it's got the potential to ruin all the work which WP:WSS has done over the last year and a quarter. As it is, the message that's on there isn't saying "this is a stub that is a full article in another encyclopedia" - it's saying "this article is a high priority for expansion". As such, calling it {{Mea-expand}} makes far more sense (since it's more like {{expand}} than {{stub}}), and won't interfere with the work being done by another wikiproject. Grutness 13:18, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Correction - I've just fixed another three (Cabira, Cabimas, Moulin (geology) that had had the hierarchical stubs removed. And I've only checked eight so far! I'm changing my vote from rename to delete. This is far too dangerous to all the work we've done at WP:WSS, so the sooner it's gone the better. Grutness 13:18, 15 November 2005
Eh? Cabira and Cabimas were never in a WSS category until you added them to one just now, so that's statement is not true at all. Pcb21| [[User_talk:Pcb21|Pete]] 13:30, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I think I see the confusion here. Those articles never had stub tags. I added the mea-stub tag, hoping someone would add a hierarchical tag as well. You now have, Grutness - thanks! By the way, why do you think anyone would remove the hierarchical stub notices? No one has so far, and I'll bet it turns out to not be a problem. Also, I understand that you would prefer it say "expand" instead of "stub", but that's not what it was designed for. It's specifically for stubs only, as the template says. – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 14:38, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
The articles never had stub tags. well, there's proof positive of a problem. Either they should have had stub tags (without them, we'd have never been able to categorise them in the stub hierarchy) or they didn't need them, in which case you're putting this new request for expansion template on something that isn't a stub. Either way, there's something wrong with the system as it stands. Either tthis new "stub needs to be deleted since it cuts across the stub hierarchy, or it needs to be made clear that it isn't a stub template and thus articles also need to be marked with a hierarchical stub template. As it is at the moment, you have stub articles without stub templates on them because your requests for expansion are removing them from the stub system, either before or after a hierarchical stub templates can be added to them - In which cased, they won't reach the specific editors who can help them, as they won't ever reach specialist categories. And have a look at what the template says. What part of "A high priority for expansion" does not equate with the purpose of an {{expand}} template? As to it being something inthat another encyclopaedia has much more fully, the same can probably be said of almost every article that Wikipedia has in stub form, since there are specialist encyclopaediae on virtually every imaginable subject, so if you intend to add it to all of those, you'll simply be duplicating the work of {{stub}}, which we worked long and hard to clear earlier this year. PLEASE at the very least rename this to a name which better reflects its purpose, like Template:Mea-expand. Grutness...wha? 00:54, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Your response indicates that we need to keep our two projects separate. Please advise the easiest way to do that. Pcb21 Pete 00:59, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
One very simple way. Don't use the word stub in your templates or categories. otherwise, they'll be interpreted as being connected to stub sorting (i.e., with WP:WSS). As to whether we need to keep the two projects separate, that's another matter. personally, I think the opposite - that the two projects would work far better if they worked in tandem and cooperated, rather than one of them creating tools which could easily be misinterpreted as those used in a different way by the other. Grutness...wha? 07:01, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I can't say I totally follow Grutness's line of argument, however having a category of such stubs is undoubtedly useful for the MEA project. If it helps at all, I've removed the template on the category page that suggested a connection with WP:WPSS. Keep. (via edit conflict) Pcb21| [[User_talk:Pcb21|Pete]] 13:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete the stub template and category. If an article needs to be expanded (whether a stub or not), add the {{expansion}} template. — Fingers-of-Pyrex 14:50, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
    • That doesn't maintain the origin of the idea for the page, which is the whole point of the tag in the first place, so is not a solution that we can run with. Pcb21| [[User_talk:Pcb21|Pete]] 15:19, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete, replace with a talk-page template (or otherwise). Can't for the life of me think why it's necessary or desirable to indicate "ownership" of an article by MEA, but if it were, why only the stubs? Aren't "started by the MEA" and "is a stub (of a particular type)" manifestly orthogonal properties? In order to track these, a list or (non-stub) category should be perfectly adequate. The very fact that all these stubs will necessarily have to be tagged a minimum of twice (the supposed normal maximum, recall) should raise alarm bells. And lastly, an existing article being tagged as "missing" is more than a little counterintuitive. Alai 17:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • At a minimum the template could use a rename to {{MEA-stub}} to match the capitalization used by the category or preferably something less cryptic. Personally I think it would be more useful to the MEA project if instead of this tag, it has a series of tags such as {{MEA-1911|Foo}}
    The topic of this article is also covered by the 1911 Britannica article Foo, but has not yet had the Britannica text incorporated into this article.
  • (continued) That would cover both stub and non-stub articles for which the corresponding PD encylopedia article hasn't yet been processed, and give an indication of where work needs to be done. Caerwine 18:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment - The purpose of this template is to highlight articles that were tagged as potentially "missing" by the MEA project, that are not (or are no longer) strictly missing, but are still stubs, and therefore need to be de-stubbed before the MEA is done with them. I think we all (most?) can agree that this is a worthy goal. The question is, is this the best way to acheive it? I'm open to other suggestions - some have been given above. Keep in mind I created this tag in order to improve Wikipedia, and it is being used to improve Wikipedia. But it's possible the same gains could be made in less obtrusive ways, such as a category without a template or a talk-page template. Constructive suggestions are great, but let's not be hostile to people working to improve things. – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 19:05, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I think a solution would be to go by what Grutness has proposed in the nomination: move the template to {{Mea-expand}} and move the category to Cat:Missing Encyclopedia Articles requests for expansion, thereby moving it from the stub hierarchy to the expansion hierarchy. For the stub sortings, I think it's best to use the existing templates, or to propose new ones, when necessary. Aecis [[User_talk:Aecis|<sup>praatpaal</sup>]] 21:05, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
      • The trouble is, as I've said before, this template isn't meant for that. This is meant only for stubs. It's just a note that says "The subject of this stub article has been identified by the Missing Encyclopedic Articles project as being a high priority for expansion." Very simple. – Quadell (talk) (bounties) 21:25, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
        • A very simple solution could be to apply the {{mea-expand}} only to stub articles. Make it a guideline for your WikiProject. When the article has been expanded sufficiently, remove the stub and the expand tags. — Fingers-of-Pyrex 21:40, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
        • The problem with that is that stubs are usually sorted by the subject of the stub itself (and rightly so, imo), and not by the goal of Wikipedia maintenance projects (I don't know if you technically are one, but I hope you catch my drift). Aecis [[User_talk:Aecis|<sup>praatpaal</sup>]] 21:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • rename to something not with the word stub. if the things grutness found had had the templates changed then its going to be a problem for the stub sorters. if the things marked werent marked as stubs then either its a problem for the stub sorters because they should have been and will be hidden in this new catagory or its not only being used for stubs so its wrongly named. so its wrong all ways. BL kiss the lizard 23:19, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
  • To Quadell: It is clear that the word "stub" is a reserved word with a specific meaning in Wikipedia these days. Let us remove ourselves from these hordes by renaming the template (and category) to contain the string "stub" and continue as we were. Obviously the text itself will continue to mention "this is a stub" but they don't care about that. This is pure dumb silly wikipolitics that we can neatly sidestep and get on with our lives. 00:53, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Pcb, is that a change of vote to "rename", or just freeform disapprobation? I really don't see how a handful of people arguing for a consistent use of categorisation constitutes "hordes" indulging in "wikipolitics". Note that for the past five months, the MEA project has given this advice: "If the article you create is a stub (a short article), please give it the correct stub tag." (That'd also be about five months before the creation of mea-stub.) Therefore all stubs created by the project ought in any case to contain a "normal" stub tag (though one would expect that to be the case in any event, really), and the "is a stub" information would already be present. Having a non-stub-template bearing a "stub" message would be confusing and pointless (just as having a non-hierarchical stub template would be). Talk-page templates are the norm for articles originated/maintained/"owned" by particular wikiprojects, and I don't see why that solution isn't satisfactory, not to say preferable, in this instance. Alai 03:28, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename to something not containing the word "stub" per above arguments. --Alynna 01:48, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete we don't need the redundant clutter on stub articles. Doesn't stub imply expand alresdy? Vsmith 13:00, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Certainly delete as a stub template but possibly rename to a talk page template as per Alai. It makes sense to keep this separate from regular stub-sorting. --Dvyost 05:05, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete the stub template; the wikiproject can decide what they'd like to use instead. --Mairi 08:04, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete - it's adding unneeded clutter to stub pages. Stub means expand as possible - don't need the extra empty stuffing that this is. Vsmith 04:51, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Post mortem comment Obviously a fairly clear delete, but given the popularity of rename, and the fact that'd remove it from our domain, I've asked at the WPJ page if they instead want this moved to a MEA-expand template, or a talk-page template, etc. Any thoughts welcome here too. Alai 06:31, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Category renamed. Template moved to {{MEA-expand}}. Still to do: Orphan mea-stub so that it can be deleted. --TheParanoidOne 22:47, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

mea-stub has been orphaned and deleted, so ready to log. --TheParanoidOne 23:18, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

November 17th[edit]

{{petroleum-stub}} & Cat:Petroleum stubs | {{energy development stub}} & Cat:Energy development stubs[edit]

bothe stubs were created out of process and are undersized. I recommend we merge and rename to {{energy-stub}} & Cat:Energy stubs which would have a combined total of 63 stubs (20 petro + 47 energy dev - 4 dups) once the merge was completed. I propose that the new category be placed as a child of Cat:Technology stubs in the stub list. Of the two existing templates, I would only keep {{petroleum-stub}} as a redirect and delete {{energy development stub}} since it doesn't follow the naming guidelines. Caerwine 21:40, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Agree, and the new category could have {{petroleum-corp-stub}} and {{energy-corp-stub}} as its daughters. Aecis [[User_talk:Aecis|<sup>praatpaal</sup>]] 22:21, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Agree. Aecis's suggestion for a child stub sounds reasonable, too. Grutness...wha? 02:00, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Agree. I've created more than five petroleum stubs (that I plan to expand) and there will most likely be more. WP is very oilfield ignorant. However, I don't see the reason to keep these two stubs separate. Uriah923 16:34, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Agree. The problem with the petroleum stub is the way it was defined (technology, service, product). This definition is extremely narrow and does not include such obvious things as oilfields. The energy stub would certainly be better, though much broader. - 23:35, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Agree with merge and rename --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge, rescope and rename, as per nom. Alai 20:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Done! Caerwine 02:03, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Redirect {{fictionalplace-stub}}[edit]

Yet another August discovery to clean up. Redirects to {{fict-location-stub}}. Even if we want a redirect for the alterate word, it would be better for consitency that it be {{fict-place-stub}} instead so as to be consistent. Therefore, I recommend that we retcon this stub and delete it from the WPSS universe. Caerwine 20:28, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Fict-place sounds good to me - and I don't see much use for this redirect, so delete it. Grutness...wha? 02:00, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Fict-place or fictional-place would be okay, but not fictionalplace. --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Alai 20:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

{{jockey-stub}} / no category[edit]

Something from the August list of discoveries that needs to be taken care of. While we could probably someday use a {{horseracingbio-stub}} that would cover jockeys, trainers, owners, and possibly the horses of course, the recent census of Cat:Sportspeople stubs detailed on the Proposals page failed to find enough to cover even that expanded coverage area. This stub is used by no articles at present, and I recommend that we simply put it down. Caerwine 20:28, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete the template and double-stub the articles using it with {{sport-bio-stub}} and {{horseracing-stub}}. Aecis [[User_talk:Aecis|<sup>praatpaal</sup>]] 22:26, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete, unpopulated --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete as chronically undersized and underscoped. Alai 20:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Redirect {{musicbio-stub}}[edit]

With the decision reached to keep Cat:Music biography stubs and in need of a template of its own, it seems appropriate to decide what to with this creation of Maoririder. It currently acts as a redirect to {{musician-stub}}, but with the exception of sports bios, we uniformly use a doubly hyphenated "-bio-" in stubs of this type. I recommend that we delete this template, and give the category a more standard {{music-bio-stub}} to serve as its template. Caerwine 20:03, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, we don't uniformly use double hyphens. This would be in line with the sportsbio ones, and usable for the same reason (keeping the same number as hyphens as musician-stub). it might be useful for anyone who falls through the cracks of musician, musicproducer, etc, but I'd be just as happy if the overall Music biography stubs category was a templateless "parent-only" category. Grutness...wha? 02:00, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Looking again, it does seem that a move would be more in keeping with standard, though it's probably a minor matter, so I'm moving to abstain on this one. Grutness...wha? 02:56, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep as a redirect. --SPUI (talk) 19:46, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename to music-bio-. Alai 20:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • rename as Alai BL kiss the lizard 23:54, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

November 18th[edit]

Cat:Oregon-related stubs[edit]

No template... no articles... no super-cat. Just one sub-cat, the Oregonian geos. And is a "-related" category, to boot. Alai 07:02, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

If there's a wikiprojects, then rename, if there isn't then delete. Grutness...wha? 07:44, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
No WPJ that links there, anyway. And isn't zero articles and zero templates a tad below even the "WPJ keep" level? Alai 07:54, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
True, but I was working on the theory that it might have been a newly-created category. If it's been around a while like this, then WP or not, it should probably go. Grutness...wha? 08:10, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Been around for about 10 weeks; can't be sure if it's been like this for 10 weeks... Ah-hah, template was speedied as a recreation, three days after being so (by your good self, even). I shall do likewise with the cat tomorrow, if there are no objections (and someone bolder hasn't already done so). Alai 08:19, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
two days later, and no sign of Alai living up to his word, so "and like that, <click!> he's gone!" Grutness...wha? 09:35, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
No fair naming and shaming us "deadbeat deleters"! Alai 20:42, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Cat:Science and Technology in Israel stubs[edit]

Empty -- no, really empty. Created as something looking a lot like a stub article, then blanked -- probably a simple error. Alai 07:15, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

in which case, it can probably be speediable. See my comment on such on the talk page. Grutness...wha? 07:44, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Make it go away, speedily if possible --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
empty for more than 48 hours, so your wish is my command. Grutness...wha? 07:56, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Cat:Bulgaria-related stubs[edit]

This is the category that {{Bulgaria-stub}} feeds into instead of Cat:Bulgaria stubs. Let's go ahead and complete the apparent attempt at a rename to standard category name. Caerwine 20:27, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Agree. Alai 01:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Cat:Norwegian stubs, Cat:Norway-related stubs[edit]

Duplicate categories, neither of which follows the established pattern. {{Norway-stub}} currently feeds into Cat:Norway-related stubs leaving the other empty. Delete the former and as long as we're cleaning up Norway rename the latter to Cat:Norway stubs. Caerwine 20:27, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Deploy the 'bot at will, and speedy the above re-cats. Alai 20:49, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete & rename per nom --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

{{Christian rapper-stub}} / Cat:Christian rapper stubs[edit]

Far too specific, and malformed category (that thinks it's a list), so no actual articles are stubbed this way. Alai 06:55, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

(rolls eyes) delete. Grutness...wha? 07:44, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Delete - Pureblade | 18:27, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Delete, too specific --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Cat:Greenland-related stubs[edit]

After the controversial ones we've had in the last few days, this one should be easy. Survivable (just) with about 40 stubs, but we can easily lose the "-related". Rename. Grutness...wha? 07:44, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

a bunch more *-related categories[edit]

These, like the Bulgarian and Norwegian ones below, were ones swapped around while the naming of Country-specific categories was in flux in August. In each case, we have Cat:Foo stubs, and it's just a case or moving everything over from Cat:Foo-related stubs and then deleting it. The list is:

There are a couple of others, but in each case they're a little more problematic, so I'll list them separately. Grutness...wha? 23:32, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Move them on out Caerwine 17:58, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Move them all --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Move, and delete the old categories. In fact, move everything fitting this pattern, at the leisure of whoever (or whichever 'bot...) wishes to do so. (There was some talk on the discussion page about proposing mass-approval of these.) Alai 01:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

{{California State Highway Stub}}[edit]

This template, lacking hyphens, doesn't seem to follow the naming guidelines. Aecis [[User_talk:Aecis|<sup>praatpaal</sup>]] 12:25, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Support a rename to either {{CaliforniaStateHighway-stub}} or {{California-State-Highway-stub}}. As a recoving roadgeek myself, I realize that it would be futile to attempt to convince them that {{California-road-stub}} would do. Caerwine 20:27, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Great jumpin' jehosephat. OK, I suppose that not technically a valid voting option, but still. Not calling it -road-stub is fair enough (ish), since there are multiple different categories of CA roads, but nevertheless, this is one naming mess. The main article is at state highway/state route. California law uses "State route". The WPJ is at "California Highway". The corresponding permanent category -- which should be a parent, but is not(!) -- is at Cat:California state highways. Ideally, this should use a) the stub naming conventions, b) CA's own terminology, and c) normal rules of English capitalisation, which would mandate either (1) {{CaliforniaStateRoute-stub}} (camel-capsing back again) or (2) {{California-state-route-stub}}. If we go for "highway" for "consistency" (!), then m.m. (Options 3 and 4.) If we have to Caps No Matter What, as per Rschen's traditional panoply of arguments (that I still can make neither head nor tail of), rate those as options (5) and (6). Under no circumstances have any spaces, or terminal capitalised "Stub". (At that point I switch from voting STV to just plain OCD, as a recent contributer ever so kindly put it.) Alai 20:46, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Fix hyphens and lowercase stub. See the debates below... Also a redirect exists at {{Californiastatehighway-stub}}. Do we just want to use this one? --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 22:15, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Hrm, I'm surprised you'd suggest that one, given your insistence otherwise on caps. I think having neither hyphens or camel-case is a bad idea, as it invites the brain to play tricks on one while parsing it. (Cali-for-niast-at-ehig-hway...) Rate that one at about alternative 4.6 for me (shortly behind Californiastateroute-stub). Alai 23:45, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

contribs) 23:53, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

        • I gathered, but your comment seemed to imply you were not-especially-opposed to Californiastatehighway-stub, as against being fairly adamantly opposed to any of the other suggestions (all more NC-compliant). Unless I had the wrong end of the stick, and hence preference ordering, entirely... Alai 01:08, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
          • Yeah... it did, I wasn't clear enough... Oops. Sorry about that. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 01:25, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename to something else: I care not a whit about capitalization, etc., I'll let everyone else decide. However, I strongly support moving to either {{California-road-stub}} or {{California-highway-stub}} or something similar. Why? Because the corresponding WikiProject is really about any California highway, it doesn't have to be a state route --- the WikiProject covers U.S. highways, Interstates, county routes, etc. Notice what the template says: it talks about highways generically. -- hike395 06:17, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Um, not quite... the WP specifically covers California State Routes. That includes all U.S. Highways and Interstates in California as well (as the highway code does not differentiate between them). County Routes are handled by Wikipedia:WikiProject California County Routes. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 06:32, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
My mistake about the county routes. I think the point is still valid, though. -- hike395 06:42, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
The WPJ defines its scope thus: "This WikiProject aims primarily to encourage participation in creating or expanding articles about state highways in California." (The term "highways", and the lower case both sic, note). So it's perfectly reasonable to have two distinguished stub-types (though why it needs two separate projects beats me), and the name should make clear the distinction in scope. So some sort of "state" (or "State"...) qualifier seems reasonable to me. If this means I just agreed with R7754 on an aspect of road-stub naming, then so be it, I'll own that. :) Alai 01:08, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Fix hyphens and lowercase stub. BlankVerse 14:52, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Fix hypens and DO NOT change case. This is a proper noun.Gateman1997 04:35, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Since when has "stub" been a proper noun? As BlankVerse said, fix hyphens and lowercase stub. Grutness...wha? 05:33, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename to any of Alai's first 4 suggestions, preferably non-camelcase. Atleast until someone can explain why California law, state highway, the quote from the wikiproject, and Category:California state highways all use lowercase but this shouldn't. --Mairi 05:21, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I believe that category predates the Wikiproject. The Cat should probably be changed to "Cateogry:California State Routes".Gateman1997 22:09, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Fix hyphens and lowercase stub, absolutely. I'd also prefer "state highway" be lowercase per the above arguments. --Alynna 19:33, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

We have an entire debate about this subject... at the very bottom of the page. I suspect that it will remain unsolved for a long time. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 05:38, 30 November 2005 (UTC) We resolved the other states... I support a move to the standard {{California-State-Highway-stub}} where the AZ, MO, TX, MI, MA, MD, NV, and NH stubs are now, and where Washington will probably be moved. See talk page for details. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 06:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Comment- If you "correct" the capitalization of "California State Route" to be "California state route" then you should also "correct" the capitalization of "United States Senator" to be "United States senator." They're both classifications of things... and you can say "senator" just as you can say "state highway".... but adding "United States" makes the whole thing capitalized just as adding "California" makes the whole thing capitalized. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 20:47, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

November 20th[edit]


Far too specific (we haven't even kept Circus-stub); quite unlikely there's 50 stubs. Created today and lacks a category. Delete. --Mairi 07:29, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Funny, I could've sworn this had been made and deleted before, but apparently not. Delete it now, anyway. Grutness...wha? 07:52, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Delete, too specific --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Delete. Alai 03:42, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

{{SL-stub}} & Cat:Sri Lanka-related stubs and Cat:Sri Lankan stubs[edit]

As promised the other day, two (well, three, actually) of the Foo vs Foo-related category changes needed a little more separate discussion - this one and the two that follow. In this case, the empty Cat:Sri Lankan stubs should be deleted, and the currently used Cat:Sri Lanka-related stubs should be renamed to Cat:Sri Lanka stubs. Grutness...wha? 07:52, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Since the template is also in need of a rename I'm adding it to the discussion. It needs to be renamed from {{SL-stub}} to {{SriLanka-stub}} to avoid any possible confusion that it might be {{SierraLeone-stub}}. I support this as well as the above category changes. Caerwine 18:56, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Agreed - I'd forgotten that the template was ambiguous. Grutness...wha? 23:20, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Rename template and fix cats per nom --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep Keep SL-stubs and delete or rename others. SL-Stub has become the default standard of Sri Lankan stubs.
  • rename SL-stub was created before the naming conventions and it could be sierra leone. are anon votes allowed anyway? BL kiss the lizard 03:11, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
    • They're free to comment, but their "votes" wouldn't normally be counted. Alai 03:42, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename and delete, respectively. Bad idea in the first instance to use inobvious abbreviations, worse given the ambiguity. Alai 03:42, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Cat:Cayman Islands-related stubs / {{Cayman-stub}}[edit]

Another case of the Foo-related needing changing to the currently extant but empty Cat:Cayman Islands stubs. Here, though, the template is also a potential problem. {{Cayman-stub}} makes me think of crocodiles - shouldn't it be {{CaymanIslands-stub}}?

How about {{Caymans-stub}} along the lines of {{Philippines-geo-stub}}? It's a fairly standard way of avoiding drawing things out. Caerwine 06:37, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Very good idea. I suspect there will be more of these in time (with places like the Bahamas, Falklands, Solomons, etc slowly increasing their geo-stub numbers) - we've got the similar {{Azores-geo-stub}}, too. Caymans-stub makes a lot of sense. Grutness...wha? 07:58, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Caymans-stub sounds good. And fix the category. --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename to Caymans-, as per CW. Alai 03:42, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Cat:Syria-related stubs / {{Syr-stub}}[edit]

And the third one's also a problem. Cat:Syria-related stubs to the empty Cat:Syria stubs is fine, but the template's badly named (surely {{Syria-stub}} would be better than {{Syr-stub}}). And do we even really need this one? It's never been listed as a stub type, and has only gained seven stubs in four months (all of them easily sortable elsewhere), and Cat:Middle East-related stubs is hardly brim-full. Grutness...wha? 07:52, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Correction - it seems syr-stub is simply a redirect, in which case deletion is a definite option for it... the question about the template and category's existence remains, though. Grutness...wha? 07:57, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Resorting from various Middle Eastern stub categories brought this to 36 stubs, and I wasn't comprehensive about it, as I left MEast-writer-stub alone. I say, delete {{Syr-stub}} and Cat:Syria-related stubs and edit {{Syria-stub}} to use Cat:Syria stubs. Caerwine 04:43, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree --Alynna 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree too, a Syrian category would be useful (esp for people like me who know a fair bit about Syria and very little about most other things!) Palmiro | Talk 16:15, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

November 21st[edit]

{{icehockey-player-stub}} & Cat:Ice hockey player stubs + redirects {{icehockeybio-stub}} & {{icehockey-bio-stub}}[edit]

We ought to regularize this to the same as the other sport bio stub subytpes, namely {{icehockeybio-stub}} as the template, pointing to the category Cat:Ice hockey biography stubs so as to also include coaches, team owners, zamboni drivers, etc. Caerwine 23:40, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Keep Croat Canuck 02:38, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • rename as proposed - it makes sense to allow coaches and the like into this category, and makes the stub consistent with all the other sportsbio categories. Grutness...wha? 05:05, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Move per Grutness. --Nlu 08:09, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename per Grutness. Aecis praatpaal 10:12, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename as proposed for consistency - there are already several non-players with this stub tag anyway. sjorford (talk) 16:30, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename as proposed for consistency's sake with the other sportsbio categories.--Alhutch 23:22, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

November 22nd[edit]

{{California missions stub}} / Cat:California missions stubs[edit]

With a total of 26 missions in California and 28 in Baja, there's going to be a real struggle to get this over the 60-stub threshold. The category currently has nine articles, and the template currently has an unhyphenated name, and has been piped so that the articles are in random order in the category. Delete Grutness...wha? 08:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. Caerwine 20:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Cat:U.S. newspaper stubs[edit]

46 stubs and there are more in Cat:Newspaper stubs that could take this, but it needs both a template and a renaming. Rename to Cat:United States newspaper stubs and give it the template {{US-newspaper-stub}}. Caerwine 01:58, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Rename and make US-newspaper-stub (what's the current name of the template? Grutness...wha? 02:18, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    • It currently has no template; someone's just been putting the category on articles. Rename and create as proposed. --Mairi 03:45, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


While I've got no doubt we need a botany stub, I think it should be just that - {{botany-stub}}. The current name is pretty ambiguous, especially since the word bot is used for a completely different thing in wikiwork. I keep thinking of semi-automated programs like Mairibot. Grutness...wha? 08:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Rename per nom. Caerwine 20:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename as much as I'd like a stub for Mairibot... --Mairi 21:23, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Update: I've moved the template per above and renominated the redirect. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 19:42, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Turn the -bot loose on the bot-s, and then delete redirect. Alai 20:15, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

{{Maritimes-geo-stub}} / Cat:Maritime Provinces geography stubs[edit]

A month or so back we put this category and template on notice. it was only used by 15 stubs, all from Prince Edward Island, since we'd split off Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. Now - congratulations! It has passed muster with 82 stubs. So I'm suggesting a formal renaming to Cat:Prince Edward Island geography stubs and {{PrinceEdwardIsland-geo-stub}}. Grutness...wha? 11:57, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Rename per nom. Would not object to also including a {{PEI-geo-stub}} as a redirect since in this case the abbreviation is much used, and geographically at least, unambigous. Caerwine 20:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Rename per Caerwine's note. Either name would be fine by me - PEI geo articles have been ignored for too long so I'm starting off creating maps for provincial divisions/subdivisions shortly, with communities etc. to follow.Plasma east 01:37, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename and add the redirect suggested by Caerwine. Mindmatrix 00:52, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

{{CAmerica-stub}} / Cat:Central America-related stubs[edit]

We adopted a pattern of using CentralAm, SouthAm, and NorthAm in these stub types which this one doesn't follow we also have a -related category here. Rename to {{CentralAm-stub}} & Cat:Central America stubs. Caerwine 23:49, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. Good idea - keep things consistent. Grutness...wha? 00:59, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Cat:Canadian newspaper stubs[edit]

No template and only 1 stub. Even if fixed to have the name Cat:Canada newspaper stubs and a template, we can afford to wait until someone formally proposes it and shows that there are 60 stubs to go into it. A simple delete. Caerwine 01:58, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Just now created the template and the appropriately named category and moved the one stub from the old category to the new template. Caerwine Caerwhine 00:30, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

{{Scrabble-stub}} / Cat:Scrabble stubs[edit]

Currently has 12 stubs, all of which could be marked with board-game-stub. I challenge anyone to find me 60 stubs about scrabble. Delete. Grutness...wha? 08:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. Caerwine 20:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Check for viability of possible rescope, say to {{word-game-stub}}, otherwise go ahead and delete. Alai 05:42, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Support change to, say, word-game-stub. I am working on the Scrabble stubs at the moment and removing this stub notice would whip the carpet out from under my feet. Soo 17:21, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
    • It's not so much a carpet though, as a very dinky-sized rug. Anyhoo, it wouldn't be removed, it'd be renamed, most likely as per Grutness's suggestion, or possibly mine, if that is itself a sanely-sized category. A template for a single person's use on a dozen stubs isn't sensible, though: you could as well simply copy and paste the list into a page in your user space. Alai 01:17, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, or at the very least redirect to the appropriate stub. Matt Yeager 05:27, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Rename {{theologist-stub}} and Cat:Theologist stubs[edit]

To {{theologian-stub}} and Cat:Theologian stubs. "Theologian" (redirect) is what's used in the article theology, the category is Cat:Theologians, the stub was proposed as theologian-stub, yet someone decided to create it as theologist. Rename. --Mairi 06:53, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Rename per nom. Caerwine 20:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Agree Rename the oddly named "theologist-stub" to theologian-stub --Blainster 23:20, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

November 23rd[edit]


This redirect to {{sectstub}} got bolded by an anon back in September into a stand alone non-stub template, sent to TfD where the decision was made to revert it back into a redirect. Now since we get antsy when someone else tries to use "stub" in a non-stub sorting template or category, I think it's only fair that we return the favor and delete this redirect and free it up for other possible uses. Caerwine 19:09, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

seems fair delete BL kiss the lizard 00:00, 24 November 2005 (UTC)


Colorado stub? Colombia stub? College stub? Nope. It's a redirect to color stub that a shade too ambiguous for my tastes. I recommend we delete this. Caerwine 18:46, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

too ambigous delete BL kiss the lizard 00:00, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

There was a valid reason for that name - it was chosen before "color-stub" so as to avoid the color/colour problem, in the same way that theat-stub is used. However, I will accept deletion on the condition that a redirect is made at colour-stub. Grutness...wha? 01:14, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I see no problem with a {{colour-stub}} redirect, in fact it already exists but isn't on the redirect list. To be honest tho, I hadn't even thought about the spelling problem. Caerwine 02:20, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps we should make it common practice to create redirects from nonabbreviated forms (atleast when there's only one abbreviation in the template), and also to create redirects from common alternate spellings/terms. Would make stub types less arcane for the casual stubber, and avoid things like the mess of redirects created for {{agri-stub}}. --Mairi 03:13, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Delete, way too ambiguous. Colonel stub? Column stub? Collaborator stub? Collision stub? Colm Meaney stub? I see no problem with one of {{color-stub}} and {{colour-stub}} redirecting to the other. — JIP | Talk 15:13, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Rename to chroma-stub and redirect everything to it? 18:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

November 24th[edit]

The last of the -related's[edit]

There is still a truck load of -related stub categories. I say we fix these, to get it over with. Some of these may already be discussed below, and some stub categories I proposed already exist.

  1. Cat:Africa-related stubs --> Cat:Africa stubs
  2. Cat:Albania-related stubs --> Cat:Albania stubs
  3. Cat:Argentina-related stubs --> Cat:Argentina stubs
  4. Cat:Australia-related stubs --> Cat:Australia stubs
  5. Cat:Austria-related stubs --> Cat:Austria stubs
  6. Cat:Azerbaijan-related stubs --> Cat:Azerbaijan stubs (SEE NOTE BELOW)
  7. Cat:Bangladesh-related stubs --> Cat:Bangladesh stubs
  8. Cat:Belgium-related stubs --> Cat:Belgium stubs
  9. Cat:Brazil-related stubs --> Cat:Brazil stubs
  10. Cat:Bulgaria-related stubs --> Cat:Bulgaria stubs
  11. Cat:California-related stubs --> Cat:California stubs
  12. Cat:Cambodia-related stubs --> Cat:Cambodia stubs (SEE NOTE BELOW)
  13. Cat:Canada-related stubs --> Cat:Canada stubs
  14. Cat:Caribbean-related stubs --> Cat:Caribbean stubs
  15. Cat:Cayman Islands-related stubs --> Cat:Cayman Islands stubs
  16. Cat:Central America-related stubs --> Cat:Central America stubs
  17. Cat:Central Asia-related stubs --> Cat:Central Asia stubs
  18. Cat:Chicago-related stubs --> Cat:Chicago stubs
  19. Cat:Chile-related stubs --> Cat:Chile stubs
  20. Cat:China-related stubs --> Cat:China stubs
  21. Cat:Colombia-related stubs --> Cat:Colombia stubs (SEE NOTE BELOW)
  22. Cat:Croatia-related stubs --> Cat:Croatia stubs
  23. Cat:Denmark-related stubs --> Cat:Denmark stubs
  24. Cat:Estonia-related stubs --> Cat:Estonia stubs
  25. Cat:Fiji-related stubs --> Cat:Fiji stubs
  26. Cat:Finland-related stubs --> Cat:Finland stubs
  27. Cat:France-related stubs --> Cat:France stubs
  28. Cat:Germany-related stubs --> Cat:Germany stubs
  29. Cat:Greece-related stubs --> Cat:Greece stubs
  30. Cat:Greenland-related stubs --> Cat:Greenland stubs
  31. Cat:Guyana-related stubs --> Cat:Guyana stubs (SEE NOTE BELOW)
  32. Cat:Hawaii-related stubs --> Cat:Hawaii stubs
  33. Cat:Hong Kong-related stubs --> Cat:Hong Kong stubs (SEE NOTE BELOW)
  34. Cat:Hungary-related stubs --> Cat:Hungary stubs
  35. Cat:Iceland-related stubs --> Cat:Iceland stubs (SEE NOTE BELOW)
  36. Cat:India-related stubs --> Cat:India stubs
  37. Cat:Indonesia-related stubs --> Cat:Indonesia stubs (SEE NOTE BELOW)
  38. Cat:Iran-related stubs --> Cat:Iran stubs
  39. Cat:Iraq-related stubs --> Cat:Iraq stubs
  40. {{Ireland-related stubs}} --> Cat:Ireland stubs
  41. Cat:Israel-related stubs --> Cat:Israel stubs
  42. Cat:Italy-related stubs --> Cat:Italy stubs
  43. Cat:Japan-related stubs --> Cat:Japan stubs
  44. Cat:Korea-related stubs --> Cat:Korea stubs
  45. Cat:Laos-related stubs --> Cat:Laos stubs
  46. Cat:Lithuania-related stubs --> Cat:Lithuania stubs
  47. Cat:Maldives-related stubs --> Cat:Maldives stubs
  48. Cat:Maryland-related stubs --> Cat:Maryland stubs (SEE NOTE BELOW)
  49. Cat:Mexico-related stubs --> Cat:Mexico stubs
  50. Cat:Middle East-related stubs --> Cat:Middle East stubs
  51. Cat:Moldova-related stubs --> Cat:Moldova stubs
  52. Cat:Morocco-related stubs --> Cat:Morocco stubs
  53. Cat:Nauru-related stubs --> Cat:Nauru stubs (SEE NOTE BELOW)
  54. Cat:Nepal-related stubs --> Cat:Nepal stubs
  55. Cat:New York City-related stubs --> Cat:New York City stubs
  56. Cat:New Zealand-related stubs --> Cat:New Zealand stubs
  57. Cat:Norway-related stubs --> Cat:Norway stubs
  58. Cat:Oceania-related stubs --> Cat:Oceania stubs
  59. Cat:Ottawa-related stubs --> Cat:Ottawa stubs
  60. Cat:Pakistan-related stubs --> Cat:Pakistan stubs
  61. Cat:Palestine-related stubs --> Cat:Palestine stubs
  62. Cat:Papua New Guinea-related stubs --> Cat:Papua New Guinea stubs
  63. Cat:Peru-related stubs --> Cat:Peru stubs
  64. Cat:Philadelphia-related stubs --> Cat:Philadelphia stubs (SEE NOTE BELOW)
  65. Cat:Poland-related stubs --> Cat:Poland stubs
  66. Cat:Portugal-related stubs --> Cat:Portugal stubs
  67. Cat:Quebec-related stubs --> Cat:Quebec stubs
  68. Cat:Romania-related stubs --> Cat:Romania stubs
  69. Cat:Russia-related stubs --> Cat:Russia stubs
  70. Cat:Rwanda-related stubs --> Cat:Rwanda stubs
  71. Cat:Singapore-related stubs --> Cat:Singapore stubs
  72. Cat:Slovakia-related stubs --> Cat:Slovakia stubs
  73. Cat:South America-related stubs --> Cat:South America stubs
  74. Cat:Spain-related stubs --> Cat:Spain stubs
  75. Cat:Sri Lanka-related stubs --> Cat:Sri Lanka stubs
  76. Cat:Suriname-related stubs --> Cat:Suriname stubs
  77. Cat:Sweden-related stubs --> Cat:Sweden stubs
  78. Cat:Switzerland-related stubs --> Cat:Switzerland stubs
  79. Cat:Syria-related stubs --> Cat:Syria stubs
  80. Cat:Taiwan-related stubs --> Cat:Taiwan stubs
  81. Cat:Texas-related stubs --> Cat:Texas stubs
  82. Cat:Thailand-related stubs --> Cat:Thailand stubs
  83. Cat:Tibet-related stubs --> Cat:Tibet stubs
  84. Cat:Turkey-related stubs --> Cat:Turkey stubs
  85. Cat:Uganda-related stubs --> Cat:Uganda stubs
  86. Cat:Ukraine-related stubs --> Cat:Ukraine stubs
  87. Cat:United Kingdom-related stubs --> Cat:United Kingdom stubs
  88. Cat:United States-related stubs --> Cat:United States stubs
  89. Cat:Utah-related stubs --> Cat:Utah stubs
  90. Cat:Venezuela-related stubs --> Cat:Venezuela stubs


  1. Cat:Anglican-related stubs --> Cat:Anglicanism stubs
  2. Cat:Ayyavazhi-related stubs --> Cat:Ayyavazhi stubs
  3. Cat:BDSM-related stubs --> Cat:BDSM stubs
  4. Cat:Bahá'í-related stubs --> Cat:Bahá'í stubs (SEE NOTE BELOW)
  5. Cat:Catholic-related stubs --> Cat:Catholicism stubs (SEE NOTE BELOW)
  6. Cat:Christianity-related stubs --> Cat:Christianity stubs
  7. Cat:Eastern Orthodox Christianity-related stubs --> Cat:Eastern Orthodox Christianity stubs
  8. Cat:Fashion-related biographical stubs --> Cat:Fashion biography stubs
  9. Cat:Hebrew Bible/Tanakh-related stubs --> Cat:Hebrew Bible/Tanakh stubs
  10. Cat:Hinduism-related stubs --> Cat:Hinduism stubs
  11. Cat:Jehovah's Witnesses-related stubs --> Cat:Jehovah's Witnesses stubs
  12. Cat:Jewish history-related stubs --> Cat:Jewish history stubs (SEE NOTE BELOW)
  13. Cat:Judaism-related stubs --> Cat:Judaism stubs
  14. Cat:Law-related biographical stubs --> Cat:Law biography stubs [See new Sfd above on 11 December]
  15. Cat:Lutheran-related stubs --> Cat:Lutheranism stubs
  16. Cat:Pornography-related stubs --> Cat:Pornography stubs
  17. Cat:Quaker-related stubs --> Cat:Quakers stubs
  18. Cat:SEPTA-related stubs --> Cat:SEPTA stubs

Aecis praatpaal 11:46, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

  • At first wink, those all look good to me. But perhaps it would be worthwhile "factoring out" the geographical ones, which are (hopefully) all of a particular pattern, from the ones that just happen to throw the word "related" in there someplace? Or at least, separating out all those where the proposal is not simply "remove '-related'". Alai 19:00, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I've separated the geographical stub categories from the non-geographical ones. Aecis praatpaal 20:22, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Thanks very. All the geos look fine to me, rename all these, except as per the special cases, below. Likewise, all the "remove -related" ones. I discern only the following that deviate from that pattern:
        • Anglicanism
        • Lutheranism
        • Quakers
      • The first two seem perfectly logical, and pattern-conforming. Why Quakers, though, and not Cat:Quaker stubs? Alai 01:29, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Good point - I hadn't noticed that one. I'd just make it Cat:Quaker stubs (although that sounds like a breakfast cereal ;) Grutness...wha? 08:56, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • In general I agree with the moves, but several need special attention. Firstly, I've crossed out those which are listed below - several of which have specific problems which need to be separately addressed. Similarly I've added "see note below" to several which I've listed below under the heading "problem cases". These need more than a simple category change. Also, you're a bit premature about those being the last. We have a few more you haven't listed:
  • Cat:El Salvador-related stubs --> Cat:El Salvador stubs
  • Cat:Election related stubs --> Cat:Election stubs
  • Cat:Islam-related stubs --> Cat:Islam stubs
  • Cat:Sex-related stubs --> Cat:Sex stubs
  • Cat:Sikhism-related stubs --> Cat:Sikhism stubs
  • Cat:Zen-related stubs --> Cat:Zen stubs

Grutness...wha? 01:09, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Rename all these too. Alai 01:29, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
  • I seem to have omitted those. What I did was simply ctrl-f'ing Cat:Stub categories. None of these categories are listed there apparently. Anyway, rename all these too. Aecis praatpaal 00:40, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I did the same, using the list at WP:WSS/ST - hence the discrepancies and the first set of "problem cases" below. Grutness...wha? 14:12, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Problem cases[edit]

(see my comment above) The following from the above list have specific problems:

Minor problem with these - none of them are listed on WP:WSS/ST

In these three cases, we might want to think about changing the template name at the same time

These three, I propose deletion of. There are no wikiprojects for Maryland or Philadelphia (AFAIK), so precedent would suggest deletion. And the nauru category is tiny and can easily be upmerged into Cat:Oceania-related stubs Finally, if there's no objections, I'm going to make a redirect for {{Bahá'í-stub}} at {{Bahai-stub}}, simply for ease of use. Grutness...wha? 01:09, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete Azerbaijan, Guyana, MD, and Nauru as drastically undersized, keep and rename all other cats. What new template names are proposed for the middle group? (And CP-stub -- huh?) Alai 01:29, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Um... I was drastically wrong with CP-stub! Not sure how I did that - apologies all. It is, of course, {{RC-stub}}, but still needs renaming. I'd suggest {{HongKong-stub}}, {{Catholic-stub}}, and {{Jewish-hist-stub}}, respectively. What about Philadephia-stub? Grutness...wha? 04:38, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Sound good to me. Rename templates, too. I dunno, what about Philadephia-stub? Rename it, as per above. It's not even the smallest cat of the remainder of the above listings, much less the smallest stub category in the world. Is there some (other) reason to delete I'm missing? Alai 05:28, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
        • The only other city stubs we have (NY, Chicago, Helsinki, Ottawa, London, and the Australian ones) have wikiprojects. And since we don't have state stubs where there's no wikiproject, why should we have city ones? Or is there a Philadelphia project? Grutness...wha? 08:56, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
          • There is a WikiProject Philadelphia with quite a few people signed up as participants, so {{Philadelphia-stub}} certainly passes the wikiproject test. Caerwine 18:56, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
            • But surely we don't in any case have a policy or established practice that these ought not to exist, even without a WPJ. Is this argument in effect that this is a cross-cutting-category of an existing splitting scheme? Alai 05:13, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
          • no, it doesn't, but we do have an established practice: we've been using the guideline of "no state-stub unless there's a state wikiproject" for several months here. Perhaps it should be revisited as a rule, though, given the proliferation of these things. In any case, given that there's a Philadeplhia WP, I withdraw the comments on that one, at least. Grutness...wha? 14:12, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
        • A definite no on {{Catholic-stub}} not all Catholics are Roman Catholics and I'm not in favor of broadening the scope since it would then overlap with the Anglo-Catholics under {{Anglican-stub}}. Caerwine 17:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

For the most part, I agree with the renames, here are the exceptions.

  • Azerbaijan Too small. There is an existing proposal to create a {{Caucasus-stub}} which has passed the 7-day requirement, but hasn't yet been created. Go ahead and combine the two, and only have to do it once.
  • Guyana Too small, even if you fold in the undersized Guyanese people stubs, its still too small.
  • Laos Too small by itself, but if you fold in the undersized Laotian people stubs, it's still small, but not too small.
  • Maryland Too small, and for US subdivisions, we've been following a rule of wanting a WikiProject for non-geo stub types.
  • Nauru Too small, and not much likelihood of major expansion.
  • Papua New Guinea Too small, but with some potential, and a subcat, still, with it being the same size as Nauru, I'd prefer that it be discussed separately.
  • Anglican I'd prefer a Cat:Anglican Communion stubs, but the parent cat is Cat:Anglicanism so I can see where you're getting the name. Still, I'd prefer a fuller discussion, possibly even refering the name of the parent cat for a rename on CfD and then conforming the stub cat to that result.
  • Catholic The parent cat is Cat:Roman Catholic Church and there are some Catholics who are not Roman Catholics, so I'd prefer to see that reflected in the category name with either Cat:Roman Catholic Church stubs, Cat:Roman Catholicism stubs or Cat:Roman Catholic stubs.
  • Eastern Orthodox Christianity I say follow the parent cat Cat:Eastern Orthodoxy and rename the category Cat:Eastern Orthodoxy stubs instead.
  • Quaker What's wrong with using Cat:Quakerism stubs to parallel the existing Cat:Quakerism?

Anyway, none of this is considering any potential stub name renamimg we might want to do at the same time, but I don't have time today to see of there any others besides what's been mentioned that should be brought to notice. Caerwine 08:05, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Fix all extcept the problems definately. fix philadelphia too since its not a problem. fix and change templates on the hongkong and jewish history ones. the rest need seperate debate BL kiss the lizard 22:47, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • El Salvador has another problem thatneeds fixing besides the -related. the template should be {{ElSalvador-stub}}, but instead it's {{Salvador-stub}}. Handle this one through a separate SfD so as to take care of both at the same time. Caerwine 04:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • "HK-stub" will do for {{Hong-Kong-stub}}. There's little if not no, ambiguity. — Instantnood 18:52, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

My vote would be to leave the {{RC-stub}} stub alone. Catholics generally don't call themselves "Roman Catholics". Note, for example the title of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Calling ourselves "Roman Cathlics" would exclude Eastern-rite Cathlics, whom we consider to be fully part of the Catholic Church. The term "Roman Catholic" is generally used by Anglicans, who want to emphasize their belief that the Anglican Church is part of the Catholic Church. Of course, to agree or to disagree would be POV, but that's not the point. (Although I never use "Roman Catholic" myself, I'm happy to go along with Wikipedia policy regarding the naming of articles, e.g. Roman Catholic Church, the main article, to which Catholic Church redirects.) But the difference in POV relates to whether or not Anglicans are Catholics. They believe that they are, but they do not believe that "Roman" Catholics are not. So, to have that stub on (Roman) Catholic articles such as Legion of Mary is perfectly appropriate, because there is no question about whether or not or not it's part of Catholicism. (People might disagree as to whether or not the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ, but that's a separate issue.) The Lambeth Conferences article currently has an {{anglican-stub}}. I personally think the article is too long to have a stub template, but I don't think there's any problem in calling it an Anglican-related stub. If a significant number of people argued that the Roman Catholic Church is not part of the Catholic Church, then a case could be made for getting rid of the "Catholic" template. Otherwise, I think it should be left as it is. AnnH (talk) 12:06, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

There are also the churches of the Utrecht Union which are Catholic, but not Roman, as well as a variety of minor schsms. In any case, I agree that there's enough here worth discussing for changes to not be made as part of this broad spectrum SfD, but rather a narrow one where just this stub type would be discussed. Caerwine 18:02, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
How many stub articles are there for which this issue is real?
Isn't just another push of the POV which asserts that there are many "Catholic Churches" other than the Catholic Church? There are hundreds of groups which claim for themselves to be a "Catholic Church" and have their own bishops. Does each of them merit their own special stub? patsw 18:19, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
It's far less POV than it would be to imply that the Roman Catholic Church is the only Catholic church. (Incidentally, Catholic gives a nice summary of the various churches that consider themselves Catholic without recognizing the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome.) That said, I'm not arguing here for stubs for other Catholic denominations. Those can and should be stubbed with {{Christianity-stub}} until such time as those other sects have 60 stub articles as would be the norm for any stub type. In any case, the controversy here is sufficent that I think it would be best to not change {{RC-stub}} & Cat:Catholic-related stubs as a result of this SfD and instead have a separate SfD on the pair. Caerwine 20:25, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree as above that {{RC-stub}} should stay as is. FWIW. --Elliskev 21:08, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm withdrawing my objections over the Anglicanism stub (for the time being) and Grutness withdrew his over the Philadelphia stub, so my count that leaves twelve stubs with -related in their stub category to be resolved. I've opened twelve separate SfD's on the remaining stubs to which dissatidfaction with doing just the category rename was registered. Caerwine 21:48, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Question: Category:Cambodia-related stubs, Category:Colombia-related stubs, Category:Iceland-related stubs and Category:Indonesia-related stubs have "SEE NOTE BELOW" next to them, and are listed in the Problem cases, but nothing more is said about them. Cambodia and Iceland are abit on the small side, but other than that I can't see anything wrong with them. What's the problem with those 4? --Mairi 04:40, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Answer They weren't on the stub list was the given problem. Cambodia has since been added, but the other three are still not on the list. Caerwine Caerwhine 04:47, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

November 26th[edit]


Not quite sure what the original intention for this was, but it's never been used for anything and has a redlinked category. The majority of workplace-related stub articles would be well covered by job-stub and tool-stub anyway. delete Grutness...wha? 05:05, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Perhaps a stub for individual factories and shops? In any case, rather the third-guessing, delete. Caerwine 07:28, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Alai 07:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC)


Unused redirect to {{US-road-stub}}. Not really sure it's needed. At a pinch, we could split thoroughfares between roads and streets, but since the definition of which is which varies from country to country anyway it would be a very arbitrary split. Delete? Grutness...wha? 05:05, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete As someone who used to have to drive Boulevard Avenue in Orangeburg, SC every weekday as I went to work, I see no need to start loading the road stubs down with redirects from the multitude of synonyms of road. Caerwine 07:28, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete I don't understand the purpose of this redirect. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 02:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Alai 07:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC)


Unused redirect to {{Turkey-stub}}, but using the race not the country, which is generally frowned upon. Delete. Grutness...wha? 05:05, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. Caerwine 07:28, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom.
  • Delete. Alai 07:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC)


Where to start? Unlisted, unproposed, uses the name of the race not the country, no category, used only once since its creation six months ago... a copybook example of everything that could be wrong with a stub type. delete. Grutness...wha? 05:05, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom, however leaving off the -land is really no worse than dropping off the -stan as the Kyrg and Kazakh stubs did. Caerwine 07:28, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Well, the Kazakhstan one's recently been renamed for the same reason. As for Kyrg-geo-stub, if you can guarantee that the majority of Wikipedians can spell Kyrgyzstan, then well and good, but I think that's one which is worth having as an exception. Grutness...wha? 07:52, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
      • I think the majority of people who would edit an article to add the stub would be able to, if for no other reason than there would be a good chance that Kyrgyzstan would already be mentioned in the article for them to refer to. Caerwine 04:30, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
    • So propose the change already! Grutness...wha? 06:47, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Alai 07:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

{{Home-stub}} / Cat:Home stubs[edit]

Perfectly formed template, nice (albeit parentless) category, utterly useless stub type. Anything that could use this stub type is already perfectly well covered by other types, and I doubt this would attract any editors who wouldn't be looking for these stubs elsewhere. We could have told its creator that if (s)he had bothered to propose the stub in the usual way before creating it. Delete. Grutness...wha? 13:37, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Delete. Alai 07:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Redirect {{anime-game-stub}}[edit]

Was made during the proposal for {{anime-cvg-stub}} (not by the proposer) and was turned by the proposer into a redirect when he created the properly named stub. Let's go ahead and nip this in the bud by deleteing this redirect now. Caerwine 20:43, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Delete; not all anime-related games are video games. --Mairi 20:09, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Alai 07:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Keep useful redirect. --SPUI (talk) 19:16, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Rename Cat:Composers stubs[edit]

A simple rename from plural to singular so that the category is Cat:Composer stubs instead. Caerwine 04:32, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Support. Might be worth considering starting to split this (by nationality?) soon, too - it looks big. Grutness...wha? 04:45, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Should be thinned somewhat once the songwriter stub is created, so I don't see a reason to rush into creating the nation based splits just yet. Unless someone beats me to it, I'll get to doing that (but not the actual restubbing for a while) as I do some archiving from the proposals page this weekend. Caerwine 07:28, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Rename. Alai 07:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

TODO: Null edits on all stubs in Category:Composers stubs. --TheParanoidOne 23:15, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

November 27th[edit]

Cat:Palaeontologist stubs[edit]

Created as a redirect for Cat:Paleontologist stubs. Category redirects don't work well, and we haven;'t been using them, so simply delete. Caerwine 05:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

  • They work at all? Delete. Alai 06:44, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete. Speedy, surely? --TheParanoidOne 23:00, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Bit late for it to be that, I think. :) But also, we don't really have a speedy deletion criterion that'd cover this. In fact, we don't really have any speedy criteria at all (aside from those for templates, redirects, and categories in general that we've inherited). Hint, hint. Alai 06:34, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Rename Cat:Radio biographical stubs[edit]

As pointed out during the recent reorg of the radio stubs, this category needs renaming, so as to support our fetish preference for nouns over adjectives. Cat:Radio biography stubs was proposed, but the category has as its non-stub parent Cat:Radio people, so I could also support Cat:Radio people stubs. Caerwine 04:26, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Fetishistic rename. I'd prefer the direct parallel to the parent, but can deal with either way. Alai 06:44, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • rename to one or the other dont mind which BL kiss the lizard 23:33, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Rename Cat:US scientist stubs[edit]

Newly created category for the newly created template. Should be Cat:American scientist stubs to follow the usual practice for such stubs. Even if we were going to use nation names instead of nation adjectives it would have been Cat:United States scientist stubs, but with the adjective form being used for the British, French, and German scientists as well, lets go ahead and get this standardized while it still won't take much restubbing. Caerwine 06:37, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Rename. Alai 06:44, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename to Cat:United States scientist stubs. The American vs United States discussion at WP:WSS/P seems to have been leaning towards using the term "United States", which is both a noun and adjectival form (as in United States Government, United States Navy, etc). American is too ambiguous. Grutness...wha? 06:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I'm getting really tired of having to refight this every time it comes up. The consensus reached by Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)/Usage of American is that if the parallel caetgories use French, British, etc., then American is prefered over United States. If you want United States scientist stubs, you're going to need to to propose that we chance the other three to Cat:United Kingdom scientist stubs, Cat:France scientist stubs, and Cat:Germany scientist stubs all three of which sound perfectly horrile and non-grammatical to me. Caerwine 07:36, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
      • They sound horrible to me, too. But unlike "United States", they're noun-only forms. United States is both a noun and an adjective. France isn't. There's the French government, the German government, and the United States government. There's the Russian navy, the Italian navy, and the United States navy. There are Australian scientists, there are Japanese scientists, and there are United States scientists. Nothing could be simpler than that. If you say American scientists, it includes all scientists from Tierra del Fuego to Alert. Having said that, if the naming conventions like it that way, then - to quote Fred Trueman "The umpire's decision is final and should be respected, even when he's obviously as blind as a bat." Grutness...wha? 10:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename to Cat:United States scientist stubs, but keep US scientist (as well as American scientist) as redirects. Matt Yeager 04:39, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment Redirects for categories don't function as they should and are just plain silly for stub categories that are intended to only be used by placing the template in the article in the first place. Caerwine Caerwhine 02:11, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Cat:Hair metal stubs {{hairmetal-stub}}[edit]

delete. i dont remember this being part of the music split thats been going on and every stub in its a musician so shouldnt be in there anyway. dumb idea. BL kiss the lizard 23:30, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Keep. It's a new template that I just created TODAY. I'm sure I would have stub-tagged more articles if I didn't live in front of my computer 24/7. Ever hear of giving something a fair chance before you condemn or criticize it. And for the record, I wasn't aware of any music split but if there is, let this be part of it. Cjmarsicano 00:15, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Keep. There's plenty of articles in the hair metal category that could use this stub. Downwiththebass 00:31, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Change Scope We do have a few genre stub types, but hair metal is just a sub genre of heavy metal which aside from {{US-metal-band-stub}} doesn't have a genre stub of its own. Rename to {{metal-music-stub}} → Cat:Heavy metal stubsCat:Heavy metal. We don't need stubs for sub-genres until the parent is overfull. If the change scope is not undertaken then mark this as a delete. Caerwine 00:39, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Delete. "Ever hear of giving something a fair chance before you condemn or criticize it"? How about "ever hear of following procedures"? Cjmarsicano, it may have only been created today, but it was created without checking first that it fit in well with the stub hierarchy (it doesn't). That's why any new stub types should be proposed through WP:WSS/P before they're created. I can see Caerwine's point that a metal-music-stub would be useful, but this one is for an ill-defined subgenre of it. Why have a stub type for a subgenre before there's a stub type for the main genre its part of? Grutness...wha? 05:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
By that same token, why should I continue to license all of my contributions, major and minor, under Creative Commons and GDFL when I could just revert them back to standard copyright standards? Oh wait, never mind, I just did. Cjmarsicano 06:31, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Why? For exactly the same reason. You were following standard Wikipedia procedures. Grutness...wha? 06:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Not anymore I'm not, at least for the forseeable future. All licenses for all contributions of mine, major and minor, withdrawn from CC for that same forseeable future. Cjmarsicano 16:09, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
You can't withdraw something from CC once you've released it. You can, of course, not license any future contributions. Soo 17:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
My CC licenses weren't that open to begin with, and contrary to your apparent "everything for free" mentality that doesn't actually work in the real world, yes I can bloddy well withdraw them. Cjmarsicano 18:08, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Cjm, Every time you click the edit link, it says on the screen:
All edits are released under the GFDL (see WP:Copyrights).
...and then in bold text:
If you don't want your writing to be edited and redistributed by others, do not submit it.
Just saying later that you take it back doesn't undo the fact that, by clicking "Save page", you agreed to those terms. I would encourage you to realize that, while some procedures may seem artitrary at first blush, and may be enforced cursorily and without explanation, it's not personal, and there's generally a sensible group of people behind it who just want to improve the Wikipedia. I've found that these stub-sorters tend to have good, or at least thoroughly-discussed, reasons for the things they do. Please remember WP:AGF. -GTBacchus(talk) 18:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Consider it my holding the right to edit and distribute my contributions hostage - I have never released them to the public domain. When things are much less anarchic and/or fascist around here, then I'll revert them back to CC2.5 - not before. And it's not just the dispute with this stub either - this is just the straw that sent the camel to the chiropractor. -- Cjmarsicano 18:39, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Ignoring policy until there's less anarchy sounds a bit like "the beatings will continue until morale improves" to me. Ignoring policy is pretty close to a dictionary definition of anarchy... Grutness...wha? 02:48, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
The anarchy part I referred to has nothing to do with the debate over this stub. And as for my copyrights here, according to Wikipedia guidelines as I understand them, I can dictate the copyright status or lack thereof on my user page (which I have been doing for several months, BTW) ... which also means I don't have to recognize GDFL if I so choose, even if I had my copyrights under any CC protocol. Sorry to break the bad news to you. -- Cjmarsicano 00:36, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
If this has nothing to do this this stub, I'm even less clear why we're discussing this here. But as I understand it, you're entirely incorrect. By submitting work to WP, you're releasing under the GFDL or whatever you say at the time on your user page, whichever is the more permissive. "Public domain" or "dual licence" is more permissive than the GFDL, and are OK; restricting distribution, or claiming any rights that the GFDL waives, isn't. You can't ever claim rights that your "publisher" requires that you sign away; and even if you could, you couldn't do it retrospectively, for material you'd already published under different conditions. If you don't like this, you could try suing wikipedia mirrors for copying your stuff without your permission, or challenge WP's own conditions as somehow void, but I don't see what else you could do about it (nor that those are likely to be successful). Disclaimer: I'm proud to say I'm not a copyright lawyer, or any other sort for that matter. Alai 01:14, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Delete as per Grutness. Conscious 12:53, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Delete per Grutness. -GTBacchus(talk) 18:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Rescope as per CW. Alai 01:14, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Keep. Give it time. Matt Yeager 04:34, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Rescope as per Caerwine. If that doesn't happen, delete. --Mairi 04:55, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Template moved to {{metal-music-stub}}. Category moved to Category:Heavy metal stubs. Redirect hairmetal-stub deleted. --TheParanoidOne 20:24, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

November 28th[edit]

Cat:Fijian geographical stubs[edit]

new and not proposed but ok except it should be Cat:Fiji geography stubs. BL kiss the lizard 11:47, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

looks like the creator of it fixed it himself! BL kiss the lizard 13:18, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
A classic example of why talking is sometimes better than SfD-ing. Since a creator can get something speedy deleted if he can be convinced he made a mistake. Any way, log this puppy. Caerwine 01:08, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Cat:Australia biography stubs[edit]

Rename The usual form would be Cat:Australian people stubs so as to parallel the non-stub parent Cat:Australian people. Caerwine 01:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Support--A Y Arktos 11:47, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
  • oppose, all the similar stubs (NZ, Fiji, etc) use the -bio- infix, so this stub shounld too. support - (I misread this initially). This action has been pending for over a month, and there are now five pages of stubs in this category. --EncycloPetey 05:05, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
    • well, nearly a month. That's the trouble with this page only having one bot, which is still busy going through the "-related" backlog. We'll get there. Grutness...wha? 05:21, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

TODO: Null edits on Category:Australia biography stubs. --TheParanoidOne 12:58, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

November 29th[edit]


From the discoveries page. Only 41 stubs at the present, but I just added 8 stubs from {{chem-stub}} from just the first column in that 4 page stub type, so it should easily reach 60 with a full sorting. However, the template could possibly use a rework before being fully adopted. {{Organic-chemistry-stub}} is the obvious choice if we want avoid all abbreviations. {{Organic-chem-stub}} also makes sense. Probably want tavoid the "org" abbreviation so as to avoid confusion with the organizaion stubs. Caerwine 02:22, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I know that I have a hard time remembering this abbreviation. When I was taking college chemistry, the high level tracks were always called "P-chem" (for physical chemistry) and "O-chem" (for organic chemistry). There may be a lot more stub articles mis-filed under {{biochem-stub}} that should properly be in {{orgchem-stub}}. -- EncycloPetey 02:44, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
O-chem seems more intuitive IMHO. Lincher 18:24, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
What do phosphorus and oxygen have to do with C-chem? Smile.png Caerwine Caerwhine 02:05, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Rename to {{organic-chem-stub}} since we've been using chem as a standard abbreviation. Also create {{organic-chemistry-stub}} as a redirect. --Mairi 02:54, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename per Mairi. Org is used for organisation, not for organic. Aecis praatpaal 10:07, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename as Mairi suggests. We already have organic-compound-stub so this rename is logical. Walkerma 04:21, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Rename for reasons already stated. Edgar181 19:33, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Category:Islamic-scholar-stub and Category:Islamic theologian stubs[edit]

Both deleted. See logged discussion here. --TheParanoidOne 15:53, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

November 30th[edit]

{{Stealth-stub}} / Category:Stealth stubs[edit]

Created 3 weeks ago, yet only used once. Not likely to get enough use; there isn't even a main category for stealth technology, and Category:Stealth aircraft has 12 articles. Delete. --Mairi 22:23, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

A Stealth aircraft stub wouldn't be useful, let alone one for stealth itself. Unless we have articles called Lurking or Creeping around silently. 'delete. Grutness...wha? 06:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Apparently Lurking is a redirect ;) --Mairi 07:02, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Delete. Completely unused and unusable. =/ Matt Yeager 04:27, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


Created 5 days ago, used on 3 articles. Lack it's own stub category. I see no reason to think there might be near 60 articles on barbies. Delete. --Mairi 22:23, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

There aren't 60 Barbie stubs, but alas, there easily could be. There are hundreds of different dolls that have been part of the Barbie lineup and that doesn't even count such ancilaries such as games, clothes, playsets, etc. Add in various cultutal tie-ins and it gets even worse. Thankfully Wikipedia has not yet attracted Barbie-cruft, it could. However stub sorting isn't crystal ball, so delete. Caerwine 01:04, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
If I ever talk my S.O. into contributing, we could have 100 stubs on Barbie in no time. But we haven't at the moment, so delete. Grutness...wha? 06:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Delete, Barbie is a very notable toy and deserves its own category, but this stub is used way too little. — JIP | Talk 15:10, 1 December 2005 (UTC)