Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 40

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Contradicting the rules on some articles...why?

Hi All-

I'm back again with another question. I have noticed that many published articles on Wikipedia only have one reference, and sometimes it's the subject's own webpage. I was wondering how these articles have slipped through and were published anyway? I have also noticed that my article for creating a page for a literary magazine was rejected because the editor didn't like that I used a website, as well as a blog from this professional website (the blog was a 3rd party source as the owners did a write-up on the subject), but many of these other publications have used exactly for their references and were accepted. I feel like there is a lot of contradicting going on as far as notability goes. Here are some examples of bad references, no in-line citations, etc. (I'm particularly interested in the literary aspect of Wikipedia):

Also, here is the one that the editor didn't like for my article, even though it's a third party source from a professional site (I came across one or two articles who have used this as well): And, here is my AfC:

I hope this all made sense and that it wasn't mumble-jumble! Thanks in advance!CityDoors 12:37, 5 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Litraj (talkcontribs)

Hey, CityDoors, and welcome back! The thing is that a lot of articles get made without any reviews at all; it isn't required for anyone to go through AfC before they create a live article. There are two traditional wikilink answers to these kinds of questions (which Wikipedia gets a lot, as you can imagine): WP:OTHERSTUFF and WP:SOFIXIT. Basically, these two wikilinks in a nutshell mean that, just because there are other pages that do something wrong, doesn't mean that you should do the same on your own articles. If you find problems in other articles, don't use them to justify flaws in your own work; instead, fix the problems in your articles and those other articles you found.
It's a laconic, somewhat unfeeling answer, but there is a lot of sense to it. Since Wikipedia content is entirely user-submitted, there's no quality control other than what the users themselves provide. Since we're all fallible, our volunteer resources are limited, and the size of Wikipedia is ginormous, we can never really guarantee that all articles are up to our standard. The answer isn't to relax our standards, the answer is to do the best we can to make our articles meet them. I know it may seem unfair that your article got rejected because you did the right thing in sending it to AfC, and all the bad articles manage to slip by us new page patrollers and get to be live, but there's really not much else we can do. All we can do is our best. Writ Keeper 14:28, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Assistance with finalizing page for Illinois-Indiana Sea Grant

Good morning, all,

I am genuinely at a loss. After long and significant revision, including the addition of numerous publication references to the page I am creating, the AfC was still rejected. One of the notes claims that Wikipedia is not considered a reliable source - well that's fine, since I don't cite those pages as references. I like to them as external links. Additionally, I have found and cited 10 or more publications I was able to find regarding Illinois-Indiana Sea Grant and, more specifically, the areas of interest/concern addressed by the organization.

It is further frustrating to see that this page was accepted, despite a severe lack of information, while my well-crafted page was not.

If anyone can help me by pointing specifically to what the issue is (or issues are), I would really appreciate it. I've been trying to get this page online for over 2 months now.

J brown99 (talk) 13:54, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi, J brown99. I will help get Illinois-Indiana Sea Grant ready. Until I have more time to spend on that, some suggestions:
  • Add an organization infobox to the lead section.
  • Make a new section titled ==Background and History== from the first five paragraphs in the current version.
  • Write a new opening paragraph that emphasizes the notability of IISG. For example, show that IISG helps protect Lake Michigan and the lower Great Lakes because 60 percent of the shoreline population of the Great Lakes is concentrated along southern Lake Michigan.
  • Try to add at least one more truly independent source. Instead of just Google, try going to or another newspaper or magazine site. Use their internal search for "Illinois-Indiana Sea Grant" (include the quotation marks, in this case). You will find things that Goggle didn't/won't find.
Hope this helps. DocTree (ʞlɐʇ · cont) Join WER 18:25, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi, Jbrown! The reason the article on Wisconsin Sea Grant was accepted is because it wasn't. It was created directly in the mainspace, an option auto-confirmed editors have. That requires no approval process. On the other hand, by working through AfC, once your article makes the encyclopedia, it is almost always going to stay there. Articles created directly have a much higher chance of being deleted. Just to give you a quick FYI. Gtwfan52 (talk) 05:07, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Let me just correct a common error in the above post. All registered users can create articles directly. It's not limited to auto-confirmed editors. But I recommend new users use AfC. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:09, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Thank you all for your quick and very helpful answers. I must say I'm relieved that folks are so responsive in offering assistance on Wikipedia. I've added an infobox and have begun reformatting the page a bit, and hopefully I'll be able to get it closer to being an accepted article soon. Thank you again. J brown99 (talk) 14:15, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

What should I do?

I am fascinated by the Wikipdia project and am looking to hopefully contribute. What are the most pressing needs of the encyclopedia? While copy-editing seems like a great thing, I'm hoping also to help out in the expansion of content. In particular, I have ideas for contributions in basic science and mathematics; American folklore, politics, and religion; and the culinary arts, but I'm not sure how to get started or which one to choose as a useful jumping off point. Any guidance that can be given would be greatly appreciated. Junjunone (talk) 12:40, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Hey Junjunone, and welcome to the Teahouse! I'm glad you have an interest in editing Wikipedia. Within Wikipedia, there are WikiProjects that focus on editing on a specific area. From what you said about what you want to contribute, I suggest joining the Mathematics WikiProject, United States WikiProject, Mythology WikiProject, Politics WikiProject, Religion WikiProject, and Food and drink WikiProject. I hope this helps! -- Luke (Talk) 14:14, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
I tried joining these projects, but there doesn't seem to be an easy way to do this. Can you point me to the place where this is possible on each of the projects? Junjunone (talk) 16:30, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi Junjunone, You simply add your name at the bottom of the particpants list. That's all. There should be a task list on the project, so take a look for something you can do. If you need any more help, feel free to ask more questions here.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  16:38, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
In some cases I could not figure out how to do this, or when I did it the formatting looked bad. Can someone help with that? I would like to join the Mathematics and Food and Drink projects but cannot figure out how to do it, for example. Junjunone (talk) 16:55, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Sure. I'll take a look. Could you sign up even with bad formatting and I will correct the formatting.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  16:58, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
The mathematics wikiproject has instructions that make no sense. Junjunone (talk) 16:58, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Also, the politics wikiproject has a list of participants, but it is not clear how I get on the list because the formatting is very odd. Junjunone (talk) 17:01, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
I have corrected the food and drink one, I'll sort out the others now.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  17:04, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
That's all done for you. They were a simple Wikitable. I think that might be an area you should work on, since they are important.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  17:11, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
In terms of pressing needs, you might want to look at Category:Wikipedia backlog. Plenty to do besides just expanding and improving articles! • Jesse V.(talk) 05:31, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

What do I do?

I have an old book with form 1969 with only a Library of Congress Control Number whats the policy for that do i just use that for my reference or what? Shashenka (talk) 21:49, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Title, author, and publisher are probably enough for a bare minimum for any reference: That is usually enough for any person to find the same book. Other serial numbers like that or the ISBN number are more recent inventions (not consistently used since the 1980s or so) which means that older books may not have them. However, as best practice, you should always include as much information as you can. For example, you should give the author, title, date of publication, publisher, city of publication, any serial numbers known, a "courtesy link" to Google Books if they have a copy, page numbers of where you found the information, edition number, volume number, etc. etc. if you can find it easily. The more the better. Include as much as feasibly possible, knowing that for some sources, some information may not be availible. That's OK. --Jayron32 22:10, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Got It thanks!Shashenka (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:35, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
I would also recommend using WorldCat at You can usually find title, author, publisher, publication location, ISBN, & edition information. You can also plug the OCLC # into the oclc parameter in {{citation}}, {{cite book}}, & other citation templates (see Template:Citation). Doing that will enable the user to find a nearby library that has the book. Peaceray (talk) 01:07, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Need help deleting an article/ Not notable

Does publishing ONE book and running an AMATEUR blog ("readers writing for other readers" on the Seattle P.I. website) meet the test for "notable"? If I put up an article about myself and my ONE book, and support it with nothing more than references to my own website and 2 small town newspaper interviews I did while promoting my ONE book (interviews in which I just talk about myself), is that "appropriately referenced'? MalibuSurfKing (talk) 21:17, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Hey MalibuSurfKing! No, writing one book and having it talked about on a blog doesn't mean the author is notable enough. There is an entire guideline for authors, and they are: The author is very famous and/or considered a really important figure by scholars. The author created a notable new genre, theory, technique of writing, or concept. The author played a major role in creating a major work or has influenced a type of media (i.e. their book was made into a major movie). Their work was a major best seller or is a legendary book, poem, poetry, etc. I think that pretty clearly makes the call - no, she doesn't merit her own article :) Did this help? I hope so! You can read a bit more about the author notability guidelines here. SarahStierch (talk) 21:27, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your help, Sarah - can you help me to delete the article about Candace Dempsey (a person that, by any objective measure, does not meet the test for notable)? MalibuSurfKing (talk) 06:22, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Sarah, just a note to you: We've already spoken about the deletion of Candace Dempsey and I can't establish much wrong with that article, there are sources, seems constructed well. The discussion we had is #Notability Problem/ How does one delete an article?  Adam Mugliston  Talk  06:35, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Forgot to say: Candace Dempsey has been described to you rather inaccurately. She is a journalist, who has written for several major US newspapers. Not sure if that gives notability, but I just thought I'd mention it in case it changes things.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  06:38, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Notes and References

Can someone clarify the use of notes and references for me, please. The use of 'notes' appears to confuse the numbering of citations. I'm really not clear on the use of notes, unless it is just a development tool, as sort of aide-memoire while writing. Thanks for the help. Mdscottis (talk) 02:01, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Hello Mdscottis. This is something new users frequently have trouble with. A good place to start reading is at Wikipedia:Referencing for beginners, which explains the basics of both why and how one adds a reference. There's some good reading there, I can't really add anything to it; though if you have any specific questions after reading it, I'd be glad to answer. --Jayron32 02:46, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand.

I do not understand how to talk and socialize in the Tea House. If you can explain something to me, that would be great! Is there like a lounge area for guests, because I'm a guest? If you can explain to me how to socialize with other Wikipedia users, that would be very thoughtful! Thank you very much! Have a nice day/week! If you want to talk to me personally, please visit my talk page= Deidra C. Thank you so much! I would appreciate if you answered at my talk page, thank you! :-) Deidra C.DEIDRA C. (talk) 00:43, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Deidra: Hi and welcome to Wikipedia. People don't really have social interaction at Wikipedia. Don't get me wrong; there are plenty of people on Wikipedia that I consider "friends", strictly in the context of Wikipedia, but there is no place for strictly social interaction on the Wikipedia site. This page, Teahouse, is a place where you can get advice on editing Wikipedia in non-technical, easy to understand language. Your own usertalk page is a place where people can communicate with you about your activities on Wikipedia. We value good responsible editors here at Wikipedia, and if you want to learn how to do that, there are plenty of people who will be happy to help you. It appears you have some interest in video gaming; perhaps you may wish to try your hand at editing there? Please listen to the advice people left at your talk page about your prior edits, though. However, if you are looking just for social interaction, Facebook is more what you are after. Not trying to be a bummer, but there is no sense in you spending your efforts here if this isn't what you are looking for. Gtwfan52 (talk) 02:17, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Notability/ Circular references

Does publishing ONE book and running an AMATEUR blog ("readers writing for other readers" on the Seattle P.I. website) meet the test for "notable"? If I put up an article about myself and my ONE book, and support it with nothing more than references to my own website and 2 small town newspaper interviews I did while promoting my ONE book (interviews in which I just talk about myself), is that "appropriately referenced'? MalibuSurfKing (talk) 21:17, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Hey MalibuSurfKing! No, writing one book and having it talked about on a blog doesn't mean the author is notable enough. There is an entire guideline for authors, and they are:
  1. The author is very famous and/or considered a really important figure by scholars.
  2. The author created a notable new genre, theory, technique of writing, or concept.
  3. The author played a major role in creating a major work or has influenced a type of media (i.e. their book was made into a major movie).
  4. Their work was a major best seller or is a legendary book, poem, poetry, etc.

I think that pretty clearly makes the call - no, she doesn't merit her own article :) Did this help? I hope so! You can read a bit more about the author notability guidelines here. SarahStierch (talk) 21:27, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Hey, and thanks for dropping in at the Teahouse. Because you have been interviewed in newspapers which are independent and not connected to your book, those certainly help, but the book itself. which is a primary source, and is probably not appropriate.
On the other hand, you must be very careful when writing articles about yourself, as well as about things you are closely connected to—for example, members of the Communist Party of China's Politburo would have to be careful when editing articles about the party, its members, and so on. This is because of Wikipedia's policy about conflicts of interest, which you should definitely read. The idea here is to preserve Wikipedia's neutrality, which is very important to the project. People connected to a subject are likely to introduce biased or slanted material into it, something which is very easy to do unintentionally. Even with the best of intentions, one must be careful to double-check writing and make sure it is free of promotional statements, for example.  dalahäst (let's talk!) 21:32, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Dashed Boxes around some content in my article?

I am working on an article that has pretty extensive sources. And a long discography.The problem I have encountered is that there are dashed boxes around some of the content on my page, and I have no idea what they mean or how to edit to correct the formatting to lose them? Anybody who can help, please feel free to send me an answer. Thanks. 17:16, 6 September 2012 (UTC) NOW THEY ARE IN HERE!!!

Hi and welcome to the Teahouse! First of all please remember to sign your posts with 4 tildas (~~~~) Secondly, your problem is simply that you write a space at the beginning of the line, if you remove that space the dashed box will go away. I have corrected your post above by removing the space in front of some of the lines. Hope this helps.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  17:20, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

what's wrong with my references?

what is the [1][2][3][4] under the references... ??? how can i delete them? help please.Machsucq (talk) 07:52, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Those are footnotes. What you're supposed to do is place the footnote (the stuff between the ref and /ref tags) directly after the statement that it supports. Then you put {{reflist}} in the references section, and that reprints the full reference data for each footnote. A pretty good explanation of how to do this is at Wikipedia:Referencing for beginners which gives a basic overview and Wikipedia:Citing sources which gives a more detailed explanation. --Jayron32 13:49, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

thx, i fugired it out. :P

what's wrong with my submission? anyone? help plz (talk) 03:54, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

I'd say the major problem is that the tone of the writing is inappropriate for Wikipedia. Encyclopedia articles should be written from a neutral point of view, and should have a certain level of "detachment". The article you give reads like an adverising copy. That is, it isn't describing the product, it is trying to get you to buy the product. --Jayron32 04:15, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi, Machsucq. Unfortunately, there are many problems with the article. A quick review shows:
  1. Much of it is quoted directly from copyrighted advertising text without atribution and violates Wikipedia's policy on copyright violations.
  2. The article reads like an advertisement, violating Wikipedia policy on advertising products.
  3. The article is written in a style that is not encyclopedic, especially use of first person and second person pronouns, i.e., we and you.
  4. The article uses may peacock terms and puffery rather than factual material.
  5. The references are product announcements or advertisements rather than substantial reviews by second or third party reliable sources that can be verified.
Even if reliable, independent sources can be found, the article must be completely rewritten in a style appropriate for an encyclopedia. Take care, DocTree (ʞlɐʇ · cont) Join WER 04:32, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

thanks for ur help, guys! thx! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Machsucq (talkcontribs) 09:38, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Self Published Sources

Can a self published source be used as a reference for an author's opinion on a subject? Dude6935 (talk) 20:11, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Possibly, assuming that an author's opinion on something is worth putting in an article. Some guidance on this is at WP:UNDUE and Wikipedia:Relevance of content which states that just because something is true and verifiable doesn't mean it must be part of a Wikipedia article. Some stuff is both true and verifiable and not worth mentioning. No statement on how that applies to the specific article you have in mind, but just something to keep in mind. --Jayron32 20:19, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
The article in question is Taxation as theft, "How Many Men?". Another editor claims that a self published source can only be used for biographical information. He claims that I am using a SPS as text on taxation. I claim that I am using a SPS as evidence of the author's opinion on the subject of taxation. I ask here because it is clear we are unable to agree. Any advice on how to resolve this question? Dude6935 (talk) 20:53, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Why is one author's opinion important for that article? That is, of all of the millions of people who have an opinion on taxation, what makes any one person's opinion worth quoting for that particular article? No one is doubting that a person said what they said they said (I think I got that right), instead people may be doubting that what a person has said in a self-published source is relevent for the article. If I say something in my blog about a topic, people can believe that I said it. That doesn't mean that quoting me would be appropriate for Wikipedia. Can you explain who you wish to quote, and why their quote is necessary for that article? --Jayron32 17:12, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

I am trying to say that opponents to taxation use the "How Many Men?" thought experiment. I have two self published sources where people use the thought experiment to reject taxation. Are you saying that we only include arguments that support a popular position if the argument itself comes from a prominent person? One source is a crowd funded video created by multiple individuals placed on youtube with over 100,000 views and over 2300 likes. I know that isn't a scholarly journal, but that seems noteworthy. Dude6935 (talk) 17:38, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Referencing Conflicts...

I feel as if there isn't a whole lot of consistency with the reviewers and referencing. One reviewer told me that a reference I had used (to cite as a source within my article), was great, but that I needed to change one or two of the others. The next time I submitted my article for review, a different reviewer decided he didn't like the "great" reference and called it a "blog", which it wasn't. It was clearly a third party website powered by WordPress (CNN, Forbes, Reuters, etc., are all powered by WordPress...and maybe he's confused because he thinks WordPress is only for blogs). I am beginning to think reviewers accept/decline just based on their own opinion and don't really research the references offered. Am I wrong to think this? Maybe I'm missing something. Someone clarify this for me, please.CityDoors 17:51, 7 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Litraj (talkcontribs)

Hey, Litraj! You are correct that article reviewing is a somewhat subjective process. But Wikipedia is built to accommodate discussion, and the best bet for understanding the opinions of reviewers is to contact them on their talk pages. While you must always be civil, you also have the right to ask hard questions. This will help the reviewers question their own methods, which is what makes a good Wikipedian. hajatvrc @ 18:05, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Also, please remember to sign posts with 4 tildes (~~~~) Thanks.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  18:22, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Assistance with erroneous information in article and deleting it without arguing with anyone

I am new to wikipedia and I was told that we could make corrections to inaccuracies. I made corrections with supported references and they keep getting deleted or reversed. I was accused of threatening other users which I never did. I stated that the information that originally posted was inaccurate and no longer factual and that I had contacted those sources off wikipedia through legal means to get them to reverse or retract their information. I politely asked them to retract got no where and then asked an attorney to contact them. I noted this on the wikipedia entry and I was informed that this was a violation. I never directed my comments to anyone just stated FACTS that were untrue.Adecoratingmom (talk) 14:48, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Hello Adecoratingmom. I'm sorry to see that you seem to be having trouble. Please read the Wikipedia policies titled Wikipedia:No legal threats and Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Wikipedia articles should be changed or added to based on information which is publicly availible in reliable published sources. Additionally, changes are made to articles by free negotation between Wikipedia editors who reach a consensus. Both of these principles are non-negotiable. That is, contacting someone doesn't count as a reliable source, you need to show where the information you have is already published elsewhere. And you can't get what you want by using the threat of legal action. Doing so will get you blocked very fast, because using legal action to coerce others to do what you want has a Chilling effect on the free exhange of ideas. Therefore, if you want to make a change to the article in question, present evidence in the form of reliable publications (not just "I asked someone and they said it was so") and refrain from using the threats of legal action to enforce what you want. That is the best advice I have to offer. --Jayron32 14:56, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Again, I do not want to offend anyone but you are not reading what I am saying. I will repeat myself again. I NEVER threatened any SOURCE with legal action. Here is the example. A person on this article referenced a published article that has been retracted. I notified that person that the article has a retraction because the facts in the original article (OFF wikipedia) is not true. The article was written and reprinted in other sources. The facts from the original article were NOT factual. I contacted the person on wikipedia who wrote to inform him that the information is not factual. He is posting erroneous information on his blog and his website that is not factual. I provided wikipedia and the source with the NEW information showing the retraction and errors from the sourced material. AGAIN never threatened a source on wikipedia. Never threatened anyone off wikipedia. I contacted the newspaper who wrote the original article, asked them nicely to review the article and to kindly check the facts. They did not respond. I had our attorney send them a nice letter with the TRUE facts and copy of the legal records that clearly contradict their original story. We asked for a retraction. They authenicated the documents through the legal system and stated the would retract. This is OFF of wikipedia. So again, the original published article has now been retracted and I have contacted OFF wikipedia the other two sources using the NEW retracted buried article to get them to write retractions. This has nothing to do with WIKIPEDIA. The source that posted or used these articles has been contacted also and shown this new information. So as I stated before the original published article that the "Source" is using as reliable information has been presented the new article and still will not retract. So what do I do now. Again, read what I said I never threatened anyone off on or off the site. The source is using outdated and published in error material. How do I fix this other then what I have tried to do? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adecoratingmom (talkcontribs) 15:07, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Do you have a link or reference to the published retraction? That's essentially what we need. We can't just take your word for it that the original sources were retracted, not that we don't trust you one way or the other, but the key here would be proof that the source is outdated by showing us the newer source material that directly contradicts it. Does that make sense? --Jayron32 15:32, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Dealing with low-level anonymous vandalism

Someone seems intent on including minor rubbish in Guelph/Eramosa. Each time I clean it up, it's been undone by an anonymous user with the comment "fixed vandalism". The latest instance is Since the IP addresses involved are always different, there is no user talk page on which I can productively post a comment. When I posted a comment on the article talk page, the response was abusive: Talk:Guelph/Eramosa.

Any suggestions on how to deal with this more effectively? Tunborough (talk) 14:12, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Hello Tunborough. Yeah, I looked it over, and this is the sort of low-level vandalism that is best dealt with by reverting and ignoring. As you note, the vandalism happens from different IPs, so it makes no sense to block them. Also, it doesn't seem to happen often enough to deal with via page protection. Looking over the history of the article, the recent vandalism you reverted happened four times in the past month. That really isn't often enough to justify locking the page down. When you get this sort of stuff, the only thing we can do is exactly what you have already done: be vigilant and revert. If it becomes more prevalent, like if it starts happening every day, or if the person who is doing it confines themself to a single IP, we can block them or protect the page. Use WP:AIV to request a block or WP:RFPP to request a protection if it ever gets to that point. I just don't see that there's anything we can do right now. --Jayron32 14:29, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Translating an English article to another language


I would like to ask for clarification regarding the translation of Wikipedia articles from one language (English for example) to another (in my case, Greek). The focus will be mainly on expanding existing entries, and adding sub-entries from the original article as needed, until the translation is completed in a 1:1 scale.

While I am willing and able to complete a reliable translation of many articles, I am wondering whether I am allowed to use the same sources as linked in the original (English) article.

While the article will be Greek, the sources will be in English (unless I can add a translation somewhere, though I fear that would perhaps be too much work).

The reason I am asking is because there are many great articles (especially socio-political ones), and I respectfully doubt there are available source materials to use for references when expanding said articles.

Thank you for your time, Alexbeav Alexbeav (talk) 12:50, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Hello, Alexbeav, and welcome to the Teahouse! It's perfectly fine to use English sources in the translated article (especially if there are no Greek ones) and at the English Wikipedia we occasionally cite non-English sources. You might want to see WP:Translate us, which gives some tips on translating from the English Wikipedia to another language. We appreciate your effort to improve the encyclopedia, whether it is here or in another language. A boat that can float! (watch me float!) 13:55, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

This biographical article needs additional citations for verification

Hi, I'm new for wikipedia, I have written one biographical article for Sri Prakash Lohia, however it keeps on giving 2 messages on the top of articles, I have tried all the citation I know, but still coming those 2 messages, does it need some time or there is such procedure for approval?Thanks/Thomas Thomas Sumartono (talk) 10:26, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Hello, Thomas, and welcome to the Teahouse! The notes at the top are added manually by a user so they have to be removed manually. I don't know about the citations, but if there's a notability problem, as it says at the second tag, I'm not sure if there's much anyone can do. A boat that can float! (watch me float!) 10:30, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

i made some improvement on my submission, can anyone help me and point out my problems?

here's my page: and one more thing why There are currently 907 submissions waiting for review at this page. the no. of submissions is adding up but i still didn't get a chance to be reviewed. how did this happen?Machsucq (talk) 06:09, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Hello, Thomas, and welcome to the Teahouse! There normally is a backlog at the Articles for Creation page, and if there is an increase in the number of submissions it's just adding to the backlog. A boat that can float! (watch me float!) 14:01, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
I've just reviewed and declined it. Perhaps if you remove some biased language it will be quite good. A boat that can float! (watch me float!) 14:02, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Primary vs Subpage

If I am doing a page for an singer/songwriter and I want to link under the discography section to go to a page for a particular album, is it better to do a subpage or another primary page?

PRPerformerResearch (talk) 14:57, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi PerformerReasearch! Welcome to the Teahouse. Could you please clarify what you are trying to do, you simply want to place a link to a page about an album? Not a redirect?  Adam Mugliston  Talk  15:39, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Hey there, PR! Welcome to the Teahouse, as Adam said. If I understand correctly, you're trying to add links on an artist's page to separate pages about each of their albums - the way to do this is to simply type [[TITLE]] (replacing title with the title of the album) where you want it to be listed (on the artist pge). Then hit save. After saving, you should see some red-looking text where each album name is... if you click on the red text, it will bring you to a new blank page, where you can type out the details on that particular album. Hope this helps! Happy editing, Theopolisme 23:00, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Also, as an aside, subpages are typically almost never used... so creating them as new root pages is the way to go. Theopolisme 23:01, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! I think it does. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PerformerResearch (talkcontribs) 03:24, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh, wait a minute. I just that, however, I still know if I am in the sandbox or not. Am I only allowed one page in the sandbox? PR. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PerformerResearch (talkcontribs) 03:29, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

It's probably a good idea to only have one article per sandbox but you can have as many sandbox pages as you like, they just have to have different names like User:PerformerResearch/sandbox, User:PerformerResearch/sandbox2, User:PerformerResearch/sandbox3 etc. NtheP (talk) 14:54, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Teahouse question template

Hi team, I'm a user of mediawiki on another project, I love the 'Ask a question' template that you've used here. Tried to look at the code but can't see how you've done it, can anyone direct me to the correct template or extension page? Many thanks Ctrace (talk) 13:37, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Hey, Ctrace, welcome! The source is here. Share and enjoy! Writ Keeper 13:40, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

How do I name it? Do I click on the link from the first sandbox page and when it takes me to a blank page, type usersandbox2? Sorry for all the dumb questions. PR — Preceding unsigned comment added by PerformerResearch (talkcontribs) 02:25, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

article creation help--backfilling through live posting?

Hi--For years I've enjoyed wikipedia, especially learning odd bits of history associated with the saint-of-the-day on various religious calendars. I decided to give back by backfilling on the few people on the Anglican calendars that don't have wikipedia pages yet. My first attempt was through the Articles for Creation process a year ago, and finally got published when I attended wikimania in Washington DC this past July (and met some friendly teahouse types).

I used the same process for a second article about a week ago, and haven't yet gotten a response, although I noticed that somehow the saint's name was mistaken in the AFC header--as her maiden name instead of her name in the calendar (and first paragraph of the semi-created article and included photo). Of course, I might've messed up even though I used a existing article as a template, but frankly I would just like to get the article posted (though she's on the calendar for March 26) -- so I can get started on un-wikified saint No. 3, whose feast day is Nov. 20.

At the risk of violating wikipedia civility standards, I'll be frank and admit I have no idea on how to just post "Harriet Monsell" live as I saw mentioned somewhere in these bulletin board. Seems the AFC process is badly backlogged. Plus, when I used the process last year, the reviewers co-mments were more jobsworthy (to use a British colloquialism that's become my word-of-the-month even if somewhat rude) rather than helpful (I learned this summer that I had a space in the previous article's first line, which messed things up, even if the sandbox version looked fine). 03:23, 6 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jweaver28 (talkcontribs)

Hello and welcome to the TeaHouse Jweaver28. If there is already a consensus that a subject or series of subjects is notable, then you can just create edit any page (including your sandbox) to include [[Harriet Monsell]] which will display as Harriet Monsell and give you a red link to create your page. Note that Wikipedia:WikiProject Saints can help you determine whether your saints are notable. Stuartyeates (talk) 03:31, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi, JWeaver28. Please never do a copy-and-paste into a red link. In your sandbox, at the top of the page, hover your cursor over the down arrow and look for "Move" to move your draft to article space. When you click "Move", you get a form to complete with drop-down menu options. Most are clear. If you get lost, just close the page and start over. After doing a couple, it will become easy. If you want details, check How to move a page for a complete description.
If you decide to do all the work in article space, be sure to put a {{newpage}} template at the top so reviewers and patrollers don't tag it for deletion before you get a chance to flesh it out. I consider it better to complete a new article in your sandbox and then move it to article space. Hope this helps, DocTree (ʞlɐʇ · cont) Join WER 03:50, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Doctree and Stuartyeates, but I'm confused. I don't see a down arrow, though if I hover over the down-and-right arrow in my sandbox, the link is a redirect to the incorrect "Harriet O'Brien" rather than "Harriet Monsell" (which is the missing saint article). Unfortunately, the Saints portal seems inactive for now, and the Anglican portal has a bunch of names for prospective pages, but none are of the three 19th century women who are the red name links in the Church of England's liturgical calendar. I don't want to whine, but unless I've overlooked something on my sandbox page (which is always a real possibility), it seems that by using the Articles for Creation route, the article space/live posting route's foreclosed. Or is the problem that I've recently added a https preference for my firefox browser--and while I've been around on wikipedia over a year, the learning or good behavior or whatever period's now restarted. Clearly, lots of semi-newbie confusion. Jweaver28 (talk) 04:32, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

align=left align=right

As a confirmed editor, up near the top of the page, you should see "Read | Edit | View History | * | Rate | ♥ |"(except it's a down arrow and not a heart) as shown in the pictures. Shouldn't matter that you now use the secure site. You should get a "Move" dialog box like shown in the right hand picture. Hope so. Let us know if there's a problem and maybe take a screen shot of what your header looks like? Hope this helps, DocTree (ʞlɐʇ · cont) Join WER 05:53, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. A picture is worth 1,000 words sometimes. So that's an arrow and not a dropdown triangle thingie. LOL. Anyway, I moved the article into livespace with the correct name, and put the newpage template you wrote about at the top without removing the articles for creation one, though maybe I should've. Golly, I never thought of myself as a confirmed editor before! Maybe I'll find the time over the weekend (especially if my doggie feels better) to learn how to spruce up my userpage....Jweaver28 (talk) 13:02, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Questions on Nathalie Cely article


I saw that the article Nathalie Cely was lacking in references, so I added a couple. However, I have some questions that I'm wondering if you can help me with. In other articles I've seen, the endnotes have their own section header. How do I do that? Also, two of the sources I used give different accounts of the ambassador's role within the organization Stratega. One says she was the founder and president, and the other describes her as a vice president. How are factual inconsistencies of this nature generally dealt with? Finally, on the "Talk" page for some articles, there are banners categorizing them (example:,_D.C. In this case it's the International Relations project). I think the Nathalie Cely page also belongs within the purview of that project. How do I recommend that, and to whom? Or can I do it myself?

Thank you. Numera astra (talk) 00:15, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Howdy, Numera astra. To add the references section, in the edit mode, add below the body of text:
As far as adding categories and talk page templates, be BOLD and add those that you believe are appropriate. Go ahead and add {{WikiProject International relations|class=stub|importance=low}} to the top of the talk page. Take caree, DocTree (ʞlɐʇ · cont) Join WER 03:23, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks. I've seen categories at the bottom of page, but how do I decide which categories are applicable? Is there a master list of available categories to choose from, for instance? As to the inconsistency between sources, I think I'll just say that she served as an executive at Stratega. The ambiguity at least ensures that it's not false. Numera astra (talk) 15:47, 6 September 2012 (UTC) Update: I found a category from another page and copied it onto this one. I then tried searching for another category (Ambasadors of Ecuador), and I noted that it contains several sub-categories, such as "Ambassador of Ecuador to France," "Ambassador of Ecuador to Russia," and so on. Is there a category for Ambassadors of Ecuador to the United States? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Numera astra (talkcontribs) 15:57, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

There isn't a category Ambassadors of Ecuador to the United States but you could create one if you want. There is a full index of categories that can be found at Special:Categories. NtheP (talk) 21:52, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Adding brackets around John F. Kennedy School of Government to create a wikilink in the Nathalie Cely article stimulated one of the many Wikipedia bots to add the category John F. Kennedy School of Government alumni, Just adding new material in Wikipedia style and format will fill in some categories for you, Astra. DocTree (ʞlɐʇ · cont) Join WER 03:58, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually I was the one who added that category, but I see what you mean. So there are automated bots that read metadata on all the articles and add categories to them? If so, that's pretty cool. Thanks for all your helpful suggestions. I'll probably be back.Numera astra (talk) 14:41, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Notability Problem/ How does one delete an article?

I've think I've discovered a case where an ordinary/ marginally employed journalist is trying to pass themselves off as "notable" in an effort to, in effect, post their résumé on wiki. I tagged the entry for review on the notability test but nothing is progressing. How do I get the ball rolling? MalibuSurfKing (talk) 21:25, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi MalibuSurfKing, welcome to the Teahouse! Could you give the link to the article please? I'll take a look and see what can be done, it is possible it can be speedy deleted.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  21:32, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Just looking through your contributions, I think the article you may be referring to is Candace Dempsey. The article seems sourced well enough and so there wouldn't really be any grounds for deletion. I don't think notability is a big issue there, but some expansion would certainly benefit that article.  Adam Mugliston  Talk  21:38, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Howdy! As Adam said, notability doesn't appear to be an issue. However, I'll tag it for expansion. See you soon, Nathan2055talk - contribs 21:47, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi Adam & Nathan. Thank you for your replies. The article I was referring to is, indeed, the one on Candace Dempsey. Seems this person has published just ONE book based on her amateur "readers blog" (readers writing for other readers) hosted by the Seattle P.I.. Does one book and one amateur blog meet the test for "notable"? There are only 3 references: one is to her own website and the other 2 are related to her interviews promoting her lone book and blog. Looks like a case of 'self-referential self-promotion'.MalibuSurfKing (talk) 02:24, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

If you think the article subject is non notable and can't be improved to establish notability then you can either propose the article for deletion or nominate the article for deletion. But for both you need to have grounds for supporting your contention that the subject isn't notable. NtheP (talk) 17:27, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Seem to be playing "ping pong" with another editor on the Robert Lustig page in the "Controversy" section

First, a bit about my background. I have a J.D. In law from the University of Georgia (1990) and a Ph.D. in international trade law and economics from the University of Konstanz, Germany (1994). I have published in numerous peer reviewed international journals and as an international litigator worked with scientific experts extensively.

I am a new editor. This is my very first foray into Wikipedia editing, although I have been using Wikipedia as a reader for a very long time. In general I have been very impressed with Wikipedia as a source and have, by practice when using it, always referred to the source material in the footnotes in order to understand a subject better or double check the accuracy of an article.

So far, I have been impressed with the accuracy of articles and the efficacy of source material; that is, until I read the Robert Lustig article, "Controversy over fructose" section.

The first sentence of this section stated, and now states again after my several attempts to correct it, that the "majority of scientific evidence does not support" Lustig's position, and the sentence ends with two cites as source material for this statement. I have read both articles and they do not support the statement made. In fact, the lead source supports Lustig's conclusions.

The final paragraph and source for the section does support the view that the majority opinion does not support Lustig's position, but the author, John S. White, of that source is a paid consultant to the beverage and High-Fructose industry. This source is not used above to back the statement made in the first sentence, but below at the end.

I have attempted twice only to add to that sentence White's affiliation with the beverage and fructose industry so that readers may be informed of his affiliation and can therefore draw their own conclusions as to the quality of his research.

Needless to say, this article is a hotspot for industry advocates who want to ensure that their interests are represented. Unfortunately, the quality of the article and its credibility is being negatively affected and its contents will continue to mislead readers as to the controversy over fructose unless certain edits are made.

The edits I have made deal only with the source material offered in the original article and are not a comment or evaluation of whether Lustig's position is ultimately correct or not. Simply put, the source material offered in this article so far either supports his position or, if it is against, is tainted by economic bias.

The reasons I have become interested in editing this particular article are two-fold: 1. I have discussed the issues with a biochemist friend at a cocktail party recently, and at her suggestion; 2. Watched Prof. Lustig's extensive lecture on YouTube. After the lecture I visited the Wikipedia page in order to get to possible sources and scientific articles on the subject. I discovered the problematic nature of the articles assertions upon reading the source material cited as described above.

I would like the article to reflect the source material accurately and any bias in the sources to be transparent to readers.

Kind regards,

Thomas J. Dillon, Jr.

Thomasdillon01 (talk) 06:07, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Thomas, and welcome to the Teahouse! Firstly, whenever you have a content dispute, you should attempt to discuss it with the editor(s) involved at the article's talk page. If you reach an impasse there, you can ask for a third opinion. There are steps beyond that too, but lets start with the simple stuff, ok? If you are questioning the sources, you can take that to the reliable sources noticeboard, but the noticeboards are very legalistic and kinda tough for a newcomer. (You are an attorney, so maybe that won't apply to you.) Finally, I put a tag on the article asking for attention from someone from WikiProject Medicine to come take a look and help if they can. Come back if we can be of more help! Gtwfan52 (talk) 06:33, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Photo up for deletion

Can someone please explain this to me. I uploaded with permission of the photographer and rec'd an email stating,

The Wikipedia page "File:Danny O'Connor throwing a punch.jpg" has been changed on 8 September 2012 by January, with the edit summary: This file is up for deletion, per CSD F7 (replaceable fair use). (TW)

How does this work? It is my 1st article and want to add the photos. what is the terms of this? Tirrnanogirl (talk) 21:44, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Hey, Tirrnanogirl. In the template that was placed on the photo's File: page, it says: "This file may fail Wikipedia's first non-free content criterion in that it illustrates a subject for which a free image might reasonably be found or created that adequately provides the same information." This is a common reason for deleting non-free images. Wikipedia would rather use free images than non-free images, even if the permission of the original photographer is given. I would suggest that you search for another image of the same subject that is free, or be able to provide evidence that a suitable free alternative does not exist. If you do wish to contest the deletion, do so on the file's talk page (it does not exist right now, you will have to create it by adding your text). Good luck! hajatvrc @ 00:41, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
If the photographer is willing to release the picture under a free license, you can upload it to Wikimedia Commons, however you'll need explicit permission in writing. The process for that is through Commons:OTRS. If the photographer is willing to let you upload it to Wikipedia, but not willing to give it away for free, then what Hajatvrc says applies, and we probably can't use it. --Robert Keiden (talk) 01:18, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Flagging of Errors

Forgive me if this question seems hopelessly obvious. Is it possible to flag an article that contains mistakes with only basic user privileges? If so, how? Osprey Ire (talk) 19:41, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Osprey Ire. Your question is soo b-r-o-a-d. Yes, you can tag and flag an article even as a newcomer. Start with simple tags that you can insert inline in the text. They are listed at Template:Inline tags and pick the one that is most appropriate for the error. So if you want to tell me that I need to give you some examples, insert {{Examples}} at the spot where you want examples and it will become this.[examples needed] If the problem is serious, then the entire page may be tagged. If you find an article with no references at all, the you would put {{subst:Unreferenced}} at the top of the page. For an article with inadequate references, use {{Refimprove}}. The list of all of these tags is at Wikipedia:Template messages/Cleanup. If you click on each tag between the curlies, you will be taken to a page that gives more detail. I suspect that you are interested in tagging an article that fails to maintain a neutral point of view. I'm not going to tell you where to find that tag so you will search for and find it and hopefully read the instructions and explanations on the page. If the article is so bad that you believe that it should be deleted from Wikipedia, come back here and I or another host will lead you through the process of nominating an article for speedy or normal deletion.
In less than two days and with two more edits, you will automagically become a confirmed user. I recommend that you do not yet install Twinkle, a Java script that automates tagging articles. You can get in trouble quickly with Twinkle, I did. My opinion is that Wikipedia editors should go through each process manually at least once to understand it and the implications and consequences of accusing another editor, at least in his or her mind, of being biased or incompetent. Some folks take every criticism of text that they wrote as a personal attack. It is important to keep discussions on track and about the text, list or image. After you do some tagging manually, you can contribute to Wikipedia with Twinkle, perhaps even joining the New Page Patrol. I hope this helps, DocTree (ʞlɐʇ · cont) Join WER 21:26, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Doctree. Good advice.Osprey Ire (talk) 21:51, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Excellent first edits! Grammar doesn't need {{tag}}, only a sharp pen. Thanks for lending yours.--Robert Keiden (talk) 01:33, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Repeated violation of WP:ENGVAR

There is an IP user than keeps changing American English to British English across multiple articles. I have put the subst:uw-lang template on their talk page. Should I revert their edits as vandalism for ignoring the Manual of Style? Silvrous Talk 13:30, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

It depends. If they are violating engvar but have only just been warned for the first time, their edits are not vandalism. They should be reverted and warned but neither the edit summaries nor the warning should use the word "vandalism" (and the revert should not be done using rollback). Vandalism is about intent. On the other hand, an edit that was at first made out of ignorance can be converted into vandalism if done repeatedly and made after the person has (or should have) knowledge of the issue. So if they continue to make engvar violating edits after being informed of the issue a few times, that could be vandalism and labeled as such – it's contextual. In either case, you should revert. One more issue. I have seen people reverting supposed engvar violations where they are not because they haven't read MOS:TIES. I haven't tracked down the actual edits you are referring to here, but if the article at issue has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation, it should use the variety of English of that nation so changing American Spellings to British spellings, for example, if the topic is British specific, would not be an engvar violation.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 14:05, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Any lists of article requests for development?

As a researcher and journalist, is there a list of topics that require research and development? How long does it take for an article to be released into the main stream? When will I be able to upload a photo to accompany the article? Further, any request for article translation -- from Chinese into English? I can help and better yet, may be able to recruit a former linguistics professor (specialty in Asian languages). Thanks CHHistory (talk) 13:12, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Hey CHHistory, and thank you for wanting to share your knowledge! The most common and easy way to find articles that need expansion is to find a WikiProject in the area in which you are interested. WikiProjects are groups of editors that come together to work on a particular content area. Their pages list articles that need to be worked on in that area. It appears that you are interested in history, and we do have a number of WikiProjects dedicated to it. You can find a list of these here. On that page is a complete list of WikiProjects that you can look through if you wish.
Articles are "released into the mainstream" as soon as they are created. It may take some time for an article to show up on search engine results (Wikipedia has no control over this), but it can be immediately found by anyone who searches Wikipedia for it.
You can upload a photo to Wikipedia at any time by using the "Upload file" function in the "Toolbox" section on the vertical bar to the left of this page (what a mouthful :P).
All of the information you need on translating pages from other languages, including a list of pages needing translation, can be found at Wikipedia:Translation. hajatvrc @ 18:08, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks for your feedback! Will do accordinglyCHHistory (talk) 18:55, 8 September 2012 (UTC)