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Wikipedia:Templates for discussion

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Closing instructions

XFD backlog
V Nov Dec Jan Feb Total
CfD 0 0 7 63 70
TfD 0 0 0 14 14
MfD 0 0 0 0 9
FfD 0 0 0 30 30
AfD 0 0 0 99 99

On this page, the deletion or merging of templates and modules, except as noted below, is discussed. To propose the renaming of a template or templates, use Wikipedia:Requested moves.

How to use this page[edit]

What not to propose for discussion here[edit]

The majority of deletion and merger proposals concerning pages in the template namespace and module namespace should be listed on this page. However, there are a few exceptions:

Stub templates
Stub templates and categories should be listed at Categories for discussion, as these templates are merely containers for their categories, unless the stub template does not come with a category and is being nominated by itself.
Userboxes should be listed at Miscellany for deletion, regardless of the namespace in which they reside.
Speedy deletion candidates
If the template clearly satisfies a criterion for speedy deletion, tag it with a speedy deletion template. For example, if you wrote the template and request its deletion, tag it with {{Db-author}}.
Policy or guideline templates
Templates that are associated with particular Wikipedia policies or guidelines, such as the speedy deletion templates, cannot be listed at TfD separately. They should be discussed on the talk page of the relevant guideline.
Template redirects
List at Redirects for discussion.

Reasons to delete a template[edit]

  1. The template violates some part of the template namespace guidelines, and can't be altered to be in compliance.
  2. The template is redundant to a better-designed template (see also: WP:Infobox consolidation).
  3. The template is not used, either directly or by template substitution (the latter cannot be concluded from the absence of backlinks), and has no likelihood of being used.
  4. The template violates a policy such as Neutral point of view or Civility and it can't be fixed through normal editing.

Templates should not be nominated if the issue can be fixed by normal editing. Instead, you should edit the template to fix its problems. If the template is complex and you don't know how to fix it, WikiProject Templates may be able to help.

Templates for which none of these apply may be deleted by consensus here. If a template is being misused, consider clarifying its documentation to indicate the correct use, or informing those that misuse it, rather than nominating it for deletion. Initiate a discussion on the template talk page if the correct use itself is under debate.

Listing a template[edit]

To list a template for deletion or merging, follow this three-step process. Note that the "Template:" prefix should not be included anywhere when carrying out these steps (unless otherwise specified).

Step Instructions
I: Tag the template. Add one of the following codes to the top of the template page:


  • If the template nominated is inline, do not add a newline between the Tfd notice and the code of the template.
  • If the template to be nominated for deletion is protected, make a request for the Tfd tag to be added, by posting on the template's talk page and using the {{editprotected}} template to catch the attention of administrators or Template editors.
  • For templates designed to be substituted, add <noinclude>...</noinclude> around the Tfd notice to prevent it from being substituted alongside the template.
  • Do not mark the edit as minor.
  • Use an edit summary like
    Nominated for deletion; see [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion#Template:name of template]]
    Nominated for merging; see [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion#Template:name of template]].
  • Before saving your edit, preview your edit to ensure the Tfd message is displayed properly.

Multiple templates: If you are nominating multiple related templates, choose a meaningful title for the discussion (like "American films by decade templates"). Tag every template with {{subst:Tfd|heading=discussion title}} or {{subst:Tfm|name of other template|heading=discussion title}} instead of the versions given above, replacing discussion title with the title you chose (but still not changing the PAGENAME code).

Related categories: If including template-populated tracking categories in the Tfd nomination, add {{Catfd|template name}} to the top of any categories that would be deleted as a result of the Tfd, this time replacing template name with the name of the template being nominated. (If you instead chose a meaningful title for a multiple nomination, use {{Catfd|header=title of nomination}} instead.)

TemplateStyles pages: The above templates will not work on TemplateStyles pages. Instead, add a CSS comment to the top of the page:

/* This template is being discussed in accordance with Wikipedia's deletion policy. Help reach a consensus at its entry: for discussion/Log/2021_February_27#Template:template_name.css */
II: List the template at Tfd. Follow this link to edit today's Tfd log.

Add this text at the top, just below the -->:

  • For deletion: {{subst:Tfd2|template name|text=Why you think the template should be deleted. ~~~~}}
  • For merging: {{subst:Tfm2|template name|other template's name|text=Why you think the templates should be merged. ~~~~}}

If the template has had previous Tfds, you can add {{Oldtfdlist|previous Tfd without brackets|result of previous Tfd}} directly after the Tfd2/Catfd2 template.

Use an edit summary such as
Adding [[Template:template name]].

Multiple templates: If this is a deletion proposal involving multiple templates, use the following:

{{subst:Tfd2|template name 1|template name 2 ...|title=meaningful discussion title|text=Why you think the templates should be deleted. ~~~~}}

You can add up to 50 template names (separated by vertical bar characters | ). Make sure to include the same meaningful discussion title that you chose before in Step 1.

If this is a merger proposal involving more than two templates, use the following:

{{subst:Tfm2|template name 1|template name 2 ...|with=main template (optional)|title=meaningful discussion title|text=Why you think the templates should be merged. ~~~~}}

You can add up to 50 template names (separated by vertical bar characters | ), plus one more in |with=. |with= does not need to be used, but should be the template that you want the other templates to be merged into. Make sure to include the same meaningful discussion title that you chose before in Step 1.

Related categories: If this is a deletion proposal involving a template and a category populated solely by templates, add this code after the Tfd2 template but before the text of your rationale:

{{subst:Catfd2|category name}}
III: Notify users. Please notify the creator of the template nominated (as well as the creator of the target template, if proposing a merger). It is helpful to also notify the main contributors of the template that you are nominating. To find them, look in the page history or talk page of the template. Then, add one of the following:

to the talk pages of the template creator (and the creator of the other template for a merger) and the talk pages of the main contributors. It is also helpful to make any interested WikiProjects aware of the discussion. To do that, make sure the template's talk page is tagged with the banners of any relevant WikiProjects; please consider notifying any of them that do not use Article alerts.

Multiple templates: There is no template for notifying an editor about a multiple-template nomination: please write a personal message in these cases.

Consider adding any templates you nominate for Tfd to your watchlist. This will help ensure that the Tfd tag is not removed.

After nominating: Notify interested projects and editors[edit]

While it is sufficient to list a template for discussion at TfD (see above), nominators and others sometimes want to attract more attention from and participation by informed editors. All such efforts must comply with Wikipedia's guideline against biased canvassing.

To encourage participation by less experienced editors, please avoid Wikipedia-specific abbreviations in the messages you leave about the discussion, link to any relevant policies or guidelines, and link to the TfD discussion page itself. If you are recommending that a template be speedily deleted, please give the criterion that it meets.

Notifying related WikiProjects[edit]

WikiProjects are groups of editors that are interested in a particular subject or type of editing. If the article is within the scope of one or more WikiProjects, they may welcome a brief, neutral note on their project's talk page(s) about the TfD. You can use {{Tfdnotice}} for this.

Tagging the nominated template's talk page with a relevant Wikiproject's banner will result in the template being listed in that project's Article Alerts automatically, if they subscribe to the system. For instance, tagging a template with {{WikiProject Physics}} will list the discussion in Wikipedia:WikiProject Physics/Article alerts.

Notifying substantial contributors to the template[edit]

While not required, it is generally considered courteous to notify the good-faith creator and any main contributors of the template and its talkpage that you are nominating for discussion. To find the creator and main contributors, look in the page history or talk page.

At this point, you've done all you need to do as nominator. Sometime after seven days have passed, someone else will either close the discussion or, where needed, "relist" it for another seven days of discussion. (That "someone" may not be you, the nominator.)

Once you have submitted a template here, no further action is necessary on your part. If the nomination is supported, helpful administrators and editors will log the result and ensure that the change is implemented to all affected pages.

Also, consider adding any templates you nominate to your watchlist. This will help ensure that your nomination tag is not mistakenly or deliberately removed.


Twinkle is a convenient tool that can perform many of the functions of notification automatically. Twinkle does not notify WikiProjects, although many of them have automatic alerts. It is helpful to notify any interested WikiProjects that don't receive alerts, but this has to be done manually.


Anyone can join the discussion, but please understand the deletion policy and explain your reasoning.

People will sometimes also recommend subst or subst and delete and similar. This means the template text should be "merged" into the articles that use it. Depending on the content, the template page may then be deleted; if preserving the edit history for attribution is desirable, it may be history-merged with the target article or moved to mainspace and redirected.

Templates are rarely orphaned—that is, removed from pages that transclude them—before the discussion is closed. A list of open discussions eligible for closure can be found at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Old unclosed discussions.

Closing discussion[edit]

Administrators should read the closing instructions before closing a nomination. Note that WP:XFDCloser semi-automates this process and ensures all of the appropriate steps are taken.

Current discussions[edit]

February 27[edit]

Template:Romanian legislative election, Chamber of Deputies 2016[edit]

Unused Izno (talk) 02:53, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:Mauritian general election, 2014[edit]

Unused. Izno (talk) 02:53, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:Norwegian parliamentary election, 2009[edit]

Single use template. Izno (talk) 02:52, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:Romanian legislative election, Senate 2016[edit]

Unused. Izno (talk) 02:51, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:Romanian legislative election, Senate 2012[edit]

Single-use template with no hope of use expansion. Izno (talk) 02:22, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:Iraq War Coalition troop deployment[edit]

Not particularly necessary as a separate template any longer. Izno (talk) 05:34, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Subst and delete This is purely static information, it has received no substantial edits since May 2019, so storing it in a template no longer serves any purpose. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:26, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 00:43, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment: Used 4 times, is this to be substituted in all transcluding articles? Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 00:44, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
    That was my intent, yes. The template doesn't need updating anymore, so any value of having it in the templatespace is nil. --Izno (talk) 02:23, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:Banmauk Township[edit]

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was keep. Izno (talk) 02:54, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

List of red links with no reasonable chance of ever becoming an article. Bot created. Why the whole category can not be deleted is a mystery to me, so I follow the advice of Plasticpork and nominate them separately. The Banner talk 17:38, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 00:12, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep. Unlike most templates in its category, this one helps the reader to navigate to some actual extant articles. Certes (talk) 00:45, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:Bhamo Township[edit]

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was keep. Izno (talk) 02:54, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

List of red links with no reasonable chance of ever becoming an article. Bot created. Why the whole category can not be deleted is a mystery to me, so I follow the advice of Plasticpork and nominate them separately. The Banner talk 17:59, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Keep In fact, most of the links in this template specifically are blue. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:26, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 00:12, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep. Unlike most templates in its category, this one helps the reader to navigate to some actual extant articles. Certes (talk) 00:45, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

February 26[edit]

Template:WikiProject Kangleipak[edit]

Abortive attempt to create a WikiProject page in Template space. Unused, no useful history. ƒirefly ( t · c ) 22:33, 26 February 2021 (UTC)


Recent and redundant fork of {{Authority control}}, to which any missing art-related identifiers should be added. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:04, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Keep, not a redundant fork. We are not supposed to be an indiscriminate collection of all possible identifiers. The template has been discussed at ANI, no objections were forthcoming.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:21, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Discussion at ANI (link?) is irrelevant. ANI is not TfD, and deals with matters requiring administrator intervention (which template forks generally are not) only. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:53, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Speedy keep. "Recent" is hardly relevant. I agree that all missing art-related identifiers should be added to Authority Control, as no identifiers are added to ACArt at all. All ACArt does is hide a number of less relevant identifiers for most art-related articles, and only show the ones that are most useful, using Authority Control. For example, at Pablo Picasso, this reduced the 43 identifiers (rough count to 17: so still plenty of identifiers, but just keeping these with most relevance for art and/or enwiki. As no real, accurate argument has been formulated why this would need deletion, and the deletion reason shows a misunderstanding of what happens with the template, I think this can be speedy kept. Fram (talk) 22:24, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Keep Basic misunderstanding of the template purpose. Only in death does duty end (talk) 22:54, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep This is not a redundant fork, because it is a wrapper template rather than a fork in the first place. * Pppery * it has begun... 23:10, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:1986 South American Team of the Year[edit]

Fails much of WP:NAVBOX, #4: There doesn't seem to be any content on this team of the year (ie this is completely unreferenced) . #2 the player articles generally don't mention that they were in this team of the year (except in this navbox) #3 they don't mention each other generally. In fact the template seems to be treated as some sort of award banner, which is not what navboxes are about. Content perhaps comes from or something similar. Nigej (talk) 16:34, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Myanmar township templates[edit]

List of red links with no reasonable chance of ever becoming an article. Bot created. The Banner talk 11:22, 26 February 2021 (UTC) style="color:green">The Banner]] talk 11:00, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Delete all. Most of the bluelinked "settlements" are unrelated topics with coincidentally similar names, and many more have been converted to redlinks over the years. Although created in good faith for understandable reasons, they have become a maintenance headache with little benefit to the reader. See also similar nominations on nearby dates. Certes (talk) 11:57, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete all. Per above. Nigej (talk) 16:15, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete all per nom. * Pppery * it has begun... 23:17, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

February 25[edit]


Only transclusion was on Retractions in academic publishing, confusing this template with {{val}}. It should display as 96032 instead of 1. Not sufficiently complex to warrant a template, as the value of any constant can be specified directly in text. –LaundryPizza03 (d) 16:19, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:Trimurti Films[edit]

We don't typically have navigation boxes for all the films by a particular studio, but instead use director boxes. If you split off all the director sections, I don't think there would be much left. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 15:40, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Myanmar township templates[edit]

List of red links with no reasonable chance of ever becoming an article. Bot created. The Banner talk 11:00, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Delete all. Most of the bluelinked "settlements" are unrelated topics with coincidentally similar names, and many more have been converted to redlinks over the years. Although created in good faith for understandable reasons, they have become a maintenance headache with little benefit to the reader. See also similar nominations on nearby dates. Certes (talk) 14:25, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete all per nom. * Pppery * it has begun... 00:26, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

February 24[edit]


Niche user warning and counter to information at Wikipedia:Splitting: "if an article meets the criteria for splitting and no discussion is required, editors can be bold and carry out the split". Elliot321 (talk | contribs) 00:34, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Keep Original reason for deletion no longer applies following a rewrite of the template's content. * Pppery * it has begun... 01:16, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 23:31, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:FIFA World Cup winning team starting goalkeepers[edit]

Not needed, as there is nothing special about being a World Cup winning goalkeeper compared to any other position in the team Joseph2302 (talk) 15:31, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. Not worthy of a template. Kante4 (talk) 15:40, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete - looks like a case of making a template for the sake of it. The starting goalkeeper is no more important/significant than any other member of the starting XI..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:42, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete Very little to do with navigation - more of a list really. Fails much of WP:NAVBOX. #4 there is no article FIFA World Cup winning team starting goalkeeper (of course not) #3 Suspect they don't refer to each at all. Also fails #5. Nigej (talk) 15:45, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. GiantSnowman 18:11, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete - one of many non-notable and unnecessary templates created by this user. GiantSnowman 18:15, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. KingSkyLord (talk | contribs) 19:47, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Nehme1499 19:59, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete per everyone above. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 20:02, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:ION DTV, Template:Ion DTV/text[edit]

A lot of the Ion stations will have vastly different subchannel lineups soon. Mvcg66b3r (talk) 03:17, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

  • I wish Scripps wouldn't mess up with Qubo (especially Qubo since they'll only be 2 OTA Kids channels) and Ion Plus (which it's schedule having too much marathons) and shut it down for their garbage Katz channels but yeah I'll have to Support because of the messy transition.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kp2016rockin (talkcontribs) 05:27, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete as it is becoming clear that these stations will not carry all the same subchannels past March 1. Sammi Brie (she/her • tc) 19:08, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

February 23[edit]


Originally nominated for speedy deletion by @DePiep with the reason "old, not-maintained duplicate; all covered in Script/Nastaliq #1" FASTILY 23:32, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Delete as I nominated. {{Script/Nastaliq2}} (#2) is a minor 'duplicate' of {{Script/Nastaliq}} (#1). All fonts listed are present in #1. #2 is not used (not transcluded). #2 latest edit in 2013, #1 2019. #1 is used in 600 articles, 9k calls [1]. -DePiep (talk) 00:00, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Not used, 1 redirect from {{Nastaliq2}}, also not used. Nigej (talk) 06:42, 24 February 2021 (UTC)


Unused. Izno (talk) 20:26, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Delete From a bygone era. Nigej (talk) 20:35, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete: Useless, unused and obsolete. JavaHurricane 05:29, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Myanmar township templates[edit]

List of red links with no reasonable chance of ever becoming an article. Bot created. The Banner talk 10:18, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Delete all nominated Myanmar township templates. Most of the bluelinked "settlements" are unrelated topics with coincidentally similar names, and many more have been converted to redlinks over the years. Although created in good faith for understandable reasons, they have become a maintenance headache with little benefit to the reader. See also similar nominations on adjacent dates. Certes (talk) 11:41, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete all per nom. * Pppery * it has begun... 15:46, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Module:Mass notification/groups/T13[edit]

Abandoned experiment by banned user. * Pppery * it has begun... 01:59, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

February 22[edit]

Template:Round corners[edit]

Insufficiently complex to require a template at this time. Izno (talk) 19:31, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Subst and delete - can't see why this requires a template. It's easy enough to add the relevant CSS, and thereby allow for customisations (e.g. radius) as needed. ƒirefly ( t · c ) 11:01, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
  • weak keep, used over 8000 times and much easier to type than the corresponding css, but I would support replacing this with something like {{box|shadow=y|radius=1em|text=...}} and/or banning the use of this in articles. Frietjes (talk) 16:52, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
    Its uses are almost exclusively outside article space already. Box, among one or two other templates, does indeed exist for the person who wants round corners. Of the 8000, 5000 are in talk spaces, and nearly the entirety of the remaining 3000 are on user pages. This template is similar in sense to others I've recently nominated that can't use the more proper mechanism, which is templatestyles. --Izno (talk) 18:34, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep - This is an excellent support tool for use in the user namespaces. Lets you type in {{Round corners}} instead of the lengthy inline parameters border-radius:1em; box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75);. That's quite a reduction in complexity, and a substantial convenience, especially for those who can't recall all that from memory (like me), or who do not have time to track down an example for copying and pasting. As this template greatly simplifies adding round corners, especially for new users, please keep. A bonus for having this in template form, is that if the code ever needs to be tweaked, you can do that for all 8400+ pages just by changing the template. Looking at the template's history, we can see that it has been tweaked many times over the years, making having this template well worth it.    — The Transhumanist   12:46, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:Top Ten Indonesian Badminton Players - Men's singles[edit]

Propose merging Template:Top Ten Indonesian Badminton Players - Men's singles with Template:Top Ten Indonesian Badminton Players.
Others template to be merged :

All the templates should be merged to Template:Top Ten Indonesian Badminton Players, since all the information already mentioned in that template. See also: Template:Top Ten Indonesian Badminton Players - Mixed doubles. Stvbastian (talk) 02:52, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Izno (talk) 16:33, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete all 5 per Nigej. Indeed, "templates that are rarely updated... are worse than useless" Tradediatalk 17:04, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:Kyangin Township[edit]

List of red links with no reasonable chance of ever becoming an article. Bot created. The Banner talk 10:46, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:00, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete all nominated Myanmar township templates. Most of the bluelinked "settlements" are unrelated topics with coincidentally similar names, and many more have been converted to redlinks over the years. Although created in good faith for understandable reasons, they have become a maintenance headache with little benefit to the reader. See also similar nominations on adjacent dates. Certes (talk) 11:41, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

February 21[edit]

Template:RTL Group[edit]

Propose merging Template:RTL Group with Template:Bertelsmann.
Significant overlap between the two templates. –Piranha249 (Discuss with me) 17:02, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:Oktwin Township[edit]

List of red links with no reasonable chance of ever becoming an article. Bot created. The Banner talk 10:11, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:35, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete all nominated Myanmar township templates. Most of the bluelinked "settlements" are unrelated topics with coincidentally similar names, and many more have been converted to redlinks over the years. Although created in good faith for understandable reasons, they have become a maintenance headache with little benefit to the reader. See also similar nominations on adjacent dates. Certes (talk) 11:40, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:Collapsible section[edit]

We should reduce the number of templates that can be used to collapse things. This template has no transclusions in main space (I removed a half dozen under MOS:COLLAPSE).

We have other collapsible templates where necessary. Izno (talk) 05:06, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

  • STOP: this template has been used with great success at many articles, and does have many main space uses, regardless of some edit warring at High Line and elsewhere. I don't see why you didn't raise a discussion first. MOS:COLLAPSE is merely a guideline, not a policy, and there is no logic behind removing it in many of the places you did. When further content can be displayed as desired (like {{adjacent stations}}/{{s-line}} has used for years), and when it is accessible from mobile, tablet, and desktop devices, there is no logical reason to remove these and make articles display far worse, at risk of fully cutting the collapsible content. This is also one of -very few- collapse templates that actually works on mobile devices, making it perhaps one of the best worth keeping. Your deletion proposal simply based on removing what you don't like really lacks the nuance of what benefits the readers and which templates work best. ɱ (talk) 14:37, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
    great success at many articles I removed a total of some 7 uses in article space. And that was the sum total of uses. If that's true, you would expect to see more.
    In none of the places I removed it did I find sufficient cause to keep it. WP:SUMMARY is relevant in many of the cases. WP:NOTDIRECTORY others. Still others a general understanding that 'if you want to hide it away, then it may not be of an appropriate weight in the article.
    It's just a guideline is an argument to avoid.
    I don't see why you didn't raise a discussion first. Because I am not required, especially when MOS:COLLAPSE is a guideline. If you want to change its guideline status, your beef is with WP:MOS.
    As for working on mobile devices, NavFrame is going away. I'm about down to some 2-dozen uses in template and module space and another 4000 in article space. While I can transition this template away from NavFrame, it still remains in violation of a guideline that we have moreover enforced more or less stringently, especially for content outside of tables and confined spaces like infoboxes and sidebars. And there is plenty of precedent for other collapsing templates not being used in the main space mainspaces, in general accord with our guideline on the matter. {{collapse}} and its content does not display at all. {{collapse top}} has some 700 uses, probably better removed. Both templates have a strong "Do not use in articles." statements in their documentation. {{Collapsible list}} has a marginally gentler recognition, but still limits itself to "use in small spaces".
    removing what you don't like Pot calling kettle black. Your 'stop' request amounts to "I like it" and "It's useful". Neither reason actually considers why our guideline is the way it is. --Izno (talk) 16:20, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
    Yes, many articles can be seven, and similar templates would bump up the number far more.
    You don't need to be the one to "find sufficient cause to keep it". You are not the arbiter here for content inclusion; Wikipedia is a collaborative project. And no, many key facts about an article, like historical named trains that utilized Chicago Union Station, are lists enough that many readers don't care, but will be of essence to plenty of others. Collapsible templates have been devised for such purposes; if you don't agree with them create an RfC on whether or not to deprecate the whole system, not pick-and-choose removals and propose deletion of a single template.
    I don't care if "It's just a guideline" is an argument to avoid. Wikipedia's founding principle is that if there's a rule that stops us from better serving our audience, to ignore it. You can't require me to comply with a single guideline you support. And MOS:COLLAPSE allows for many uses of collapsible areas, making this deletion discussion pointless. Collapsed or auto-collapsing cells or sections may be used with tables if it simply repeats information covered in the main text (or is purely supplementary. This is what I have been using it for, and the MOS says consider raising a discussion on the article (or template) talk page about whether it should be included at all. - NOT to be bold and remove it.
    I don't know what NavFrame is, nor why it is going away - care to explain why you bring this up?
    "violation of a guideline" - MOS:COLLAPSE describes several ways in which collapsible content is acceptable, and thus ways this template can be used. It really seems like you are the one who needs to go to an MOS talk page to remove all of the portions of MOS:COLLAPSE that allow for article usage.
    Your 'stop' request amounts to "I like it" and "It's useful". Yes, as a highly-active article creator, it is a useful tool for creating and displaying content, a web 2.0-like feature that innumerous websites use. I detest any and all attempts to fight against interactivity in articles, as we can create something far greater than just static essays if traditionalists stop fighting against things like {{mapframe}} and the likes. ɱ (talk) 16:48, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
    We generally do not keep templates so-little used. Certainly not functional duplicates.
    Collapsible templates have been devised for such purposes; if you don't agree with them create an RfC on whether or not to deprecate the whole system, not pick-and-choose removals and propose deletion of a single template. No. The onus is on you, not me, to show that MOS:COLLAPSE does not enjoy consensus. But regardless, I can still take individual templates to WP:TFD, especially for other reasons, such as "not used (very much)" and "duplicates another existing template", under which this template qualifies.
    lists enough that many readers don't care Either it has sufficient weight to be in the article, in which case it should be accessible to everybody, or it doesn't (or it truly is supplementary content, such as sidebars and navboxes, which that exception is actually for, not ad hoc use). Since you bring up the the particular article, I honestly don't care whether the content lives in the article, what I do care about is whether it's hidden away. You might persuade me it doesn't have the weight to be in that article, in which case you should remove it, or it does, and you should give it a shine. As it is, the content in question has 0 citations, so I would be justified in removing it without any hope of restoration Soon per WP:CHALLENGE. Are you interested in having that discussion? I usually don't take that path because it doesn't always apply and in this case I try to disturb an article least (or if I see some other reason some collapsible content is violating expectations of our articles per various WP:PAG, I do remove content I suppose; I just usually try to stay away from questions of sourced-ness). Fundamentally, it looks like you care that the content is there, not some abstract railfans, so don't hide behind the unseen them as an excuse. I think this paragraph also reasonably takes care of consider raising a discussion on the article (or template) talk page about whether it should be included at all. - NOT to be bold and remove it., which is entirely related to the specific content and not the use of collapsibility.
    WP:NavFrame is the particular CSS- and Javascript-supported functionality that this template relies on. I can change it to use the known replacement, but in this case this template duplicates another template uses outside mainspace and simply shouldn't be used in mainspace, so I submitted it for TFD. I would be extremely surprised if this actually does work on mobile (for collapsing at least) since MediaWiki:Mobile.js does not have the relevant JavaScript. NavFrame's replacement also does not (currently) work for collapsing on mobile, but does display as expected also.
    IAR See Wikipedia:What "Ignore all rules" means. I find your vein there to be fully outside of what IAR means, so, I'm going to, er, ignore it.
    a web 2.0-like feature that innumerous websites use I refer to to the onus here. I'm actually sympathetic to this line of reasoning in some ways and think that particular section of our guideline could use some revision on the point, but that's not really a revision I am interested in supporting right now and/or I would need to see some stronger preference to support allowing free use of collapsing elements in the main space. (go ham outside if you should please). --Izno (talk) 18:09, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
    Jesus this is a wall of text that's hard to follow. I'll have to take time to look at it later, yet it seems pointless as we're both dead-set on opposite views that articles are [just for the general public vs. can have tools to allow for specifics for nerds]. I'm confused though how you think MOS:COLLAPSE does not permit any collapsed sections in articles, when, with consensus, it very well does. ɱ (talk) 18:38, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
    Um, you're posting blocks of text almost as large. Izno's total word count here is 879 words, and yours is 619 (before your apparently forthcoming additional reply). I think WP:KETTLE was already cited in this discussion. >;-)  — SMcCandlish ¢ 😼  05:21, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
    Nobody asked for a character count here; I also said it's hard to follow. Congrats on linking one of the snarkiest essays; my one response only had to be long in an effort to reply to all of their many points, but their two have broken records within this discussion. ɱ (talk) 14:00, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Redirect to Template:Collapse The bit about this not being allowed in article namespace is a tangential, since most uses are outside the article namespace (and were even before Izno's actions). What matters is that I see nothing that meaningfully distinguishes this from other templates for collapsing things, so it should not exist separately. Nevertheless, I feel the name "collapsible section" is a plausible name for a template, so a redirect is preferable to deletion. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:35, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
    No - there are key differences. For starters, I do not believe {{collapse}} works on mobile devices. It also has a different style than this template, with a long gray bar that may not suit all articles or look as modern, and would look horrible in a table like the one here. If you want to combine the two, I find it imperative to keep this sort of style. Additionally, this template always uses a message "— View by clicking [show] —" that helps users understand how to access the content, where [show] might not always be too clear. ɱ (talk) 16:53, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
It's the above clumsy three-border, three-different-shades format versus the below, clean, inline map format. Keep the functionality even if you have to merge. ɱ (talk) 19:05, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Redirect per Pppery. The two seem very similar functionally, the differences being cosmetic (although I've no idea about the mobile issue). I'd have thought that options could perhaps be added to "Collapse" to make it more like "Collapsible section", and, at the end of day we're producing an encyclopedia, not running a beauty contest, so some differences are acceptable. Nigej (talk) 17:32, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
It's not about a beauty contest. {{Collapse}} is designed as a standalone segment to a page, with its own shading and borders. It is simply not applicable for use in other areas like tables and infoboxes, like in my example above. Unless and until {{Collapse}} is granted that functionality, I can't allow {{Collapsible section}} to be deleted. ɱ (talk) 17:44, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused. When I change "Collapsible section" to "subst:Collapse" in List of COTA bus routes it looks ok to me. Nigej (talk) 18:06, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
It displays its weird own box with its own shading and borders that look terrible, and then when you expand the map, it forms its own bordered white box as well - it's so clumsy I wouldn't have even done any of this work if there wasn't a reasonable way to display it. No need to cut a perfectly-working preferable format. I'd be fine with merging the templates, so long as formatting options are preserved. ɱ (talk) 18:45, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Personally I'd put the differences in the trivial-difference category. Content is exactly the same. Nigej (talk) 18:59, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
(per image) Still look like trivial differences to me. Content is exactly the same. Nigej (talk) 19:07, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Cool, that's your opinion, and why Wikipedia will look like the 2000s-era site it always has - too many Wikipedians only care about content over design. 'Content exactly the same' is not a good argument, sorry. ɱ (talk) 19:23, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
But tuning everything up to our own personal preferences is much worse, IMO. We should be improving what's there, not creating duplicates. Nigej (talk) 19:32, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Which is why I am not at all opposed to a full merge. I don't expect the template creator knew how to build that functionality as an option to the existing template, nor do I. If someone with the know-how volunteers to, I suppose we could all be done here. ɱ (talk) 19:59, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Strong keep I see no reasonable rationale for deleting this. Even if it comes in useful in a handful of articles then I see no point of deleting things just for the sake of it. Abcmaxx (talk) 02:03, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Merge or keep. It appears the templates have slightly different appearances, which I think can be relatively easily accommodated with conditional code. I oppose deleting this outright - that doesn't really help people if they wanted slightly different options like Ɱ mentions. However, the purpose of both templates is fairly similar other than the appearance. The fact that this isn't allowed in article space is a little offtopic given that it has almost 400 non-article-space uses. Epicgenius (talk) 05:03, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
    Merge-and-redirect of a redundant template because it is redundant i snot "deleting things just for the sake of it", so you have not provided a valid opposition rationale.  — SMcCandlish ¢ 😼  05:21, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
    I'm pretty sure this is in response to the wrong comment. I didn't say anything about "deleting things just for the sake of it", though Abcmaxx has. Epicgenius (talk) 13:57, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Redirect/Merge. We have no use for a redundant template that does the same thing as {{Collapse}}. The visual display difference can be resolved with a parameter. If the code of one is smarter and works across more user agents, in a standards-compliant and accessible manner (I remain skeptical), then use that code rather than the crappier code. This is not rocket science. The histrionics above appear to be grounded in the mistaken impression that collapsing material will suddenly become impossible. But that is not true, so the merge/redir. should proceed. I even think I detect a bogus argument that if some wikiproject would rather auto-collapse a bunch of things, like train-route tables or album track lists, that they're free to do so. That is a false assumption, per WP:CONLEVEL policy. The very reason that policy exists is to stop wikiprojects and other clusters of editors making up their own "anti-rule" directly against side-wide policies and guidelines. But it really has nothing to do with whether this template should exist as a stand-alone template.

    PS: To clarify, MOS:COLLAPSE does not forbid the use of collapsible content elements in mainspace, only the use of them to hide content by default. That is, any such element is to be "open" by default but may be coded to be collapsible by users with browsers that support that feature. An exception is made for navboxes, which may auto-collapse, since they are not part of the real page content but are a navigational interface element. We have these rules because the collapsed material cannot be read by users of screen readers, those without JavaScript on, and those with various mobile browsers that aren't as capable as desktop ones. They generally cannot make the content un-hidden, so an article with collapsed content is effectively censored to them. However, they and everyone else can read the content if not auto-collapsed, and any users who can use the hide/show widget will be able to collapse it, or can even use user JavaScript (in Special:MyPage/common.js or on the user-agent side, e.g. with TamperMonkey) to auto-collapse all such elements.
     — SMcCandlish ¢ 😼  05:21, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Don't put words in other editors' mouths, thank you! You're the first one to mention WikiProjects or groups of editors; stop. We also have to serve the general public as well as we can. Prominent websites utilize javascript and other interactive elements; likely 99.9 percent of readers have access to these things. If you uncheck the ability to display internet content, you should very well expect to see gaps in what appears in front of you, but it's not like we put ultra-essential content there anyway. As for screen readers, I doubt the usage is very high at all, and don't see how that would help those users see hidden maps like at the High Line and COTA routes articles. For the Chicago station article, it's also not ultra-essential content either. ɱ (talk) 14:12, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
This is a very similar template! I'm pretty sure I chose the other one due to its instructions given, where this template doesn't immediately make it apparent that there is collapsed content. As well, I am not sure about its mobile applications, would have to test that out... ɱ (talk) 20:22, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:Source conflict[edit]

This template (unused at the moment) confuses verifiability with the existence of different viewpoints, and asks for irrelevant actions. Verifying each source does not help editors deal with sources that disagree over something. Articles can be fully verifiable even when sources disagree. There is no *verifiability* problem if an article says that Trump claimed he won the election and all the major news sources claim that he lost, or if an article says that Country X claims this territory belongs to them and that Country Y claims the same territory belongs to Y. See also Wikipedia talk:Cleanup#Template:Source conflict. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:26, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

February 20[edit]

Template:Infobox ride[edit]

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was Delete; deleted as G2 by Fastily (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT 05:06, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Originally nominated for speedy deletion by @Discospinster with the reason "unnecessary and unused infobox" FASTILY 23:38, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:Infobox new[edit]

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was Delete; deleted as G2 by Fastily (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT 05:06, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Originally nominated for speedy deletion by @Discospinster with the reason "unnecessary and unused infobox" FASTILY 23:37, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:Ice hockey penalties[edit]

Most of the links on this template go to a specific section of one page (Penalty (ice hockey)), which is not what a navbox is supposed to do. Either this navbox should be deleted or the links should be cut down so that it only contains links to relevant pages on ice hockey penalties (e.g. not just kick). P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 22:58, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:Juicy ML[edit]

Created by banned user IWasMadeWalker as undisclosed paid editing (later disclosed here) for a promotional page which is currently at AfD here with seven unanimous delete !votes. This nearly deleted article is the only use of this template for a non-notable musician. — Twassman [Talk·Contribs] 21:55, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:Injangyang Township[edit]

List of red links with no reasonable chance of ever becoming an article. Bot created. Why the whole category can not be deleted is a mystery to me, so I follow the advice of Plasticpork and nominate them separately. The Banner talk 11:11, 20 February 2021 (UTC)


The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was Template does not exist. If the title linked contains a typo, feel free to correct the typo and un-close this discussion. AnomieBOT 12:07, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

G1 and G2 WP:CSD Huggums537 (talk) 11:18, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

  • I just want to add that I did some further investigation, and found that this user actually creates pretty good userboxes, and this one looks like it might possibly be a personal pattern/test template of some sort, which is why I was confused to see it listed in the userbox gallery, and that is what prompted me to nominate it for deletion, but I might have been hasty since there are a couple of users linking to it, but only one of them appears to be using it properly. Based on this new information, I withdraw my nomination according to the theory that users should be allowed to have test patterns set up in their personal space. Maybe it should be taken down from the gallery, or at least have some documentation saying that it is a base template to work off of. Huggums537 (talk) 11:58, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Template:Archive bottom[edit]

Propose merging Template:Archive bottom with Template:Discussion bottom.
See this discussion from last year.

Eventually, I will nominate some more templates, but I am in no rush. {{Discussion bottom}} and {{Archive bottom}} are rather high profile, so they can easily be discussed separately. –MJLTalk 03:44, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:IK Frej squad[edit]

Club has dropped down to the Swedish sixth tier. No squad list on their website, far below the professional level, not even the manager has a Wiki article. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 03:38, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. GiantSnowman 14:48, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom, not needed & serves no purpose. GiantSnowman 14:48, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom, useless. Nigej (talk) 18:54, 20 February 2021 (UTC)


The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template(s) or module(s) below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was delete. Izno (talk) 02:36, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Unused in article space and only one transclusion in project space. JsfasdF252 (talk) 01:42, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Subst and delete - I doubt the use of this character will come up regularly enough for a template to be useful. ƒirefly ( t · c ) 22:38, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

Old discussions[edit]

February 19

Template:The Bold Barnstar


originally nominated for speedy deletion by @Elizium23 with the reason "The_Bold_Barnstar.gif was deleted" FASTILY 20:07, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Keep Indeed the gif went 10 years ago and now it is purely text: "The Bold Barnstar". I'm not a fan of barnstars but it doesn't seem much of a reason to delete. Nigej (talk) 21:20, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete. Unused, without realistic chance of ever seeing use. --Paul_012 (talk) 17:58, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
    It's "unused" because it's subst-only. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:12, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment I did a quick insource search for "The Bold Barnstar" in "user" and "user talk" space and found 2 uses, one from 2010 (User:Bovineboy2008/Awards) and one from this month (User talk:Elizium23). Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 16:35, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
    • Indeed, I'd be happy to see it deleted on the basis that it's surplus to requirement. Nigej (talk) 19:06, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 15:36, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete per Plastikspork. --Izno (talk) 02:26, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:Rail network in South East Queensland box


Template used in only one page. Izno (talk) 03:58, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Subst and delete Insufficient complexity of markup to warrant a template. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:26, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:SWC Results/pair


Template used in only two pages. Izno (talk) 03:56, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Subst and delete This template does a lot of complicated switching based on parameters, but in the end it's just a wikitable. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:26, 21 February 2021 (UTC)



Template used via 3 separate templates in only 1 page. Delete as a single-use templates. Izno (talk) 03:48, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Comment The -1,-2.-3 templates are called by Latvian grammar#Conjugation classes (the -3 template being called twice). These three then call the -table template. All very complicated unless there is some plan to expand the number of uses. Nigej (talk) 18:01, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Indeed. Subst and delete the lot as single use. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:26, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:Wikipedia's sister projects (fluid)


Template:Wikipedia's sister projects is responsive now, which makes this template entirely superfluous.

Transcluded in a few places, so I think substing, or moving to some primarily user-space subpage seems a reasonable response here if not a full delete. Izno (talk) 01:11, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

February 18



This template is insufficiently complex to need its own template. It's also hard to access from the browser bar. Lastly, the last TFD's opinions look quite unpersuasive from a today's point of view. Izno (talk) 07:46, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Subst and delete Insufficient complexity of markup to warrant a template. * Pppery * it has begun... 00:50, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
  • I don't know jack about templates, but this is used a lot at Contributor copyright investigations. Moneytrees🏝️Talk/CCI help 17:36, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep this is used 710 times and has no technical or other issues - while it might be simple, it's used enough to warrant keeping. Elliot321 (talk | contribs) 01:57, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
    It's current use in articles fails WP:MOSBOLD and WP:MOSITALIC as a start. There is a separate template for unknown in tables. Elsewhere it might be reasonable, but elsewhere doesn't need this level of 'standardization' as it was framed over a decade ago. Put a question mark in whatever you're working and be done. --Izno (talk) 02:03, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
    apparently it's used in CCI (over half the transclusions are in project-space)? I agree that it shouldn't be used in articles. Elliot321 (talk | contribs) 02:16, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep In use at CCI. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 00:29, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
    I don't really see why one should need a bold-italic question mark available. I assume a normal question mark would work in all cases. --Izno (talk) 16:43, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –Piranha249 (Discuss with me) 18:42, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep Intensively used in various lists within WikiProject Telecommunications. Nightwalker-87 (talk) 20:22, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
    It shouldn't be used in mainspace per its documentation. --Izno (talk) 16:43, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Modify so that it makes use of &quest;, facilitating the use of escaped question marks. — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  03:50, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Subst and delete - I realise I'm taking a contrarian position here, but I cannot see any reason to have this. Invoking the template ({{?}}) is 5 characters, and the inserted text ('''''?''''') is 11 characters. Do we need a template to 'save' six characters? You can click the "bold" and "italic" options in the editor to do this in two clicks anyway, if you're worried about aligning the number of quote marks on each side. ƒirefly ( t · c ) 16:40, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
  • keep - the road to deletion is to first get rid of the use of the template by substituting it with a better one (named "unknown" or something) - once there are almost zero uses of the template then come back and I'll happily vote delete. N.B. the value of the template is not the content, it's the fact that it gives a clear place to find unknown values in tables and then start doing research to fix them. StacksofHoy (talk) 18:42, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:Number format


Every single page that uses this template either passes it a hard-coded value (in which case there's no point in using this template, just hardcode the result), or uses it in a way that is redundant to the formatnum parser function, or both. * Pppery * it has begun... 00:08, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

  • Keep. Although its usage makes it seem like it's a copy of the parser function, I assure you it does more than what the parser function does. To like off a few, it lets you control what the radix point is; it lets you control what the separators are. I understand that {{formatnum}} will automatically format a number based on locale, but it does not give you control of the format. {{number format}} gives you absolute freedom of how you format your numbers.
Additionally, when removing all the formatting, {{number format}} will remove all non-number characters while {{formatnum}} will leave all of them uncounched. So, if you want just the number part of a string, andy string, {{formatnum}} is not a viable option.
{{number format}} Output {{formatnum}} Output
{{number format|123km}} 123 {{formatnum:123km|R}} 123km
{{number format|"-123.450"}} -123.450 {{formatnum:"-123.450"|R}} "-123.450"
This template is not redundant. It may have a similar effect, but it allows for things that the parser function does not. --Diriector_Doc├─────┤TalkContribs 03:52, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
I know that this template, in theory, can do more than what the parser function does. In practice, however, none of that functionality is being used by any pages, so the template still turns out to be redundant. * Pppery * it has begun... 04:03, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
Its usage does not determine its functionality. The template is not redundant in the same way {{Sum}} is not a redundant copy of {{#expr}}. Every instance of {{Sum}} can be replaced with {{#expr}}, but there are advantages to using the template. Additionally, we already agreed that {{#expr}} has different functionality. Just because the extra functionality is not widely used, how does that make it redundant? --Diriector_Doc├─────┤TalkContribs 04:59, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
Bad example, because I think {{sum}} is a redundant copy of #expr. Anyway, if the additional functionality of {{number format}} were only not widely used, then I wouldn't have nominated this for deletion in the first place, however it's actually not used at all, and deleting unused templates is a well-established practice at TfD. * Pppery * it has begun... 05:10, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
deleting unused templates is a well-established practice at TfD. I'm sure it is. The template itself is not unused, however. Let's looks at the two factors separately:
  1. A template should be deleted if it is unused.
  2. A template should be deleted if it is redundant.
Is it unused? No. There are pages that use it; we agree on this. Is it redundant? No. This template has a function that the proposed "copy" does not have; we are both aware of these functions. Unless there is a criterion I am missing, this template does not comply with the deletion policy. --Diriector_Doc├─────┤TalkContribs 16:23, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Primefac (talk) 01:15, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete Seems to be a clever template looking for an application. All the complexity is unused, making it redundant. Leaving such templates lying around waiting for some to use them is not a good idea, just creates extra maintenance. Nigej (talk) 17:32, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
I tried explaining this before the relisting, but redundancy and lack of use are two separate criteria. Yes, part of this template does a similar thing to a parser function. Similar, but not identical (see above table). Not only that, the rest of the template has a different function, so it's not redundant. There are also a number of pages that use this template. From what I see, pages should lean more towards templates over parser functions anyway. And considering the pages that use this template, and the Help pages that legitimately recommends the use of this template, I fail to see how this template can be considered "unused." Simply saying "Well, part of this is unused, so that makes it redundant," is not how you should address it. --Diriector_Doc├─────┤TalkContribs 19:38, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
Is it used in mainspace? I can only find it in a few user articles. Anyway, it seems to me that we can easily do without it, hence it is reductant. Nigej (talk) 20:06, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
Are parser functions used in mainspace? No, templates are. I could also argue that we can do without many specific templates, but that's not what redundant means. If something is redundant, it does the exact same thing as something else. This template and the parse function do different things (once again, see table) --Diriector_Doc├─────┤TalkContribs 21:10, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
To me, redundant in this context means: surplus to requirement, something we can do without without noticing the difference. Nigej (talk) 21:20, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
I mean, that's one way of looking at it, but just because it has a similar use, does not mean it has the same use. They do similar things, yes, but they are distinct in function. --Diriector_Doc├─────┤TalkContribs 03:28, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Weak keep Merge. I'm torn on this, because Diriector Doc's central argument is correct. Restated: We do not delete templates simply because they are wrappers for less user-friendly code. Such templates are in fact desirable. (And that editor's secondary argument, that "unused" and "redundant" are severable criteria, is also correct). However, I think Pppery and Nigej are correct that despite the potential "fancy" uses of this template, it is not actually being used that way. So it does not appear to be currently needed, specifically to provide those functions. However, the fact that it can simply behave as a wrapper for a parser function makes that a reason for keeping it, at least that aspect of it. Then there's the fact that some of what it does is already done by another template. So, the more and more obvious solution to me is to merge it into that other template, which is more-used anyway. The extra features provided would see use over time, being in a "standard" template instead of something new that no one knows about. In any event, if not kept, it should be re-userspaced, since the author of it may have some use for it. One option might be to move the current fancy-pants code to a user sandbox and reduce the Template/Module-namespaces version to a wrapper for the function. Honestly, I don't think it's any kind of a big deal to keep a template around that can do potentially useful stuff; if it's pretty new and is reasonably documented, people are likely to use it over time. Every template/module is basically unused when it is new. PS: For cases where someone is just feeding it a hard-coded value and the template's not actually doing anything, just remove the template in those cases.  — SMcCandlish ¢ 😼  06:23, 10 February 2021 (UTC); corrected: 19:21, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
    • SMcCandlish when you say merge it into that other template, which is more-used anyway what is that other template? as far as I can tell, {{formatnum}} isn't another template (issues an error message when used) and {{formatnum:}} is a parserfunction. Frietjes (talk) 17:49, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
      • Never mind; I mis-read the discussion. I thought there was another template making use of the formatnum parser function, but the discussion had shifted to one using the #expr parser function; obviously merging them wouldn't make sense. My bad. That's what I get for skimming instead of poring over a thread.  — SMcCandlish ¢ 😼  19:21, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
  • move back to "userspace" until there is a clear need for this module. Frietjes (talk) 17:49, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –Piranha249 (Discuss with me) 18:31, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

February 16



Propose merging Module:PassMath with Module:Math.
A separate module for division is not necessary because the function is within the scope of Module:Math. I would also be okay with deleting Module:PassMath entirely as redundant to the #expr parser function. * Pppery * it has begun... 21:59, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

The divide function in PassMath is not finished yet. Trigenibinion (talk) 22:04, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
The functionality of divide is now finished, but it may need to be revised for calling with other than strings. The error semantics of this module is different from Module:Math: PassMath forwards errors generated below, Math always outputs its own errors. Trigenibinion (talk) 23:02, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Merge indeed. Redirect/replace & depr is good and harmless.
btw I do not agree with the #expr part, because it is cumbersome oldstyle coding, and out-of-editing-pattern. (Recently I had to spend hours & frustrations looking for a "floor" function, any). But if I understand this correct, this is moot for the merge. -DePiep (talk) 23:28, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
#expr is beside the point, but because the purpose of the module is to forward any sub-expression errors before attempting the operation. And Module:Math does not do this, so these functions do not belong there. Trigenibinion (talk) 01:10, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
thx, Trigenibinion. Allow me to skip this tech detail, unless I should rethink my !vote logic ;-) Have a nice edit. -DePiep (talk) 02:07, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:Members of the First Legislative Yuan


This is a massive template, with only a small fraction of the entries bluelinked. There is no reason to have something this large that does this little. Primefac (talk) 11:21, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

  • Keep I'm in the process of creating articles for around 85 of the people listed (who were the first women MPs in China). They're all valid redlinks as the people in question pass WP:NPOLITICIAN and 575 of them were linked to the articles using {{ill}}, but this has been removed for some reason. The template has a majority of bluelinks. It's fairly common to have these kinds of navigational templates (see e.g. {{Members of the 5th Bundestag}} which also appears to have a majority of redlinks) Number 57 11:24, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
    I'm happy to userfy until the majority of those pages are created. As per the usual arguments, the existence of one redlink-bloated template isn't a good reason to create another. Primefac (talk) 01:23, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Recommend procedural withdraw and replace with wider RFC, without prejudice to re-listing in light of outcome of that RFC on issue of templates like these which are likely to have non-English blue-links available. If I had to take a position on this particular one case, I would say keep, as useful if it has or soon will have inter-language links assuming the 575 links are restored. However, this class of templates - templates which are mostly filled with links that will "always be red in English, not due to notability but due to lack of writers with the interest or the language skills to create a page, or if a page is created, it will be very small compared to the non-English page," should have a wider discussion. As for cases where there likely will NOT ever be inter-language links or English links, I usually prefer list-ification or category-ification. I say "usually" because there are some things, like Nth legislature of the state of Y or Yth parliament of the country of Z, where may of the "Nth" in the series are well-developed, but a few are not. In those cases, for the sake of consistency, I prefer keeping them all in the same format, even if many of the "older" (pre-20th-century?) ones are full of redlinks. As above, I'm also open to a wider RFC on cases like this. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 13:50, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
    We don't put {{ill}}s in navboxes, and we don't create navboxes that are 90% redlinkes (whether there are 50 or 500 total). Primefac (talk) 01:23, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
    WP:NAV is pertinent. --Izno (talk) 16:47, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete Surely this should be a list article, eg. List of Members of the First Legislative Yuan. It serves no useful purpose being turned in a vast template, much too large to useful for navigation. Nigej (talk) 15:23, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment the template is mistaking being complete from being navigation. Just strip the template of all redlinks, and reformat into a single listgroup of the exiting bluelinks. Thus it wil function to navigate between extant articles. Just as how musical band templates only list extant album articles and not every album the band published. -- (talk) 22:26, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete – This navbox fails several points at WP:NAV. The majority of its links are red and provide no navigational aid; with >800 entries, it's too big. Several links point to a wrong target. It's also malformed, not using hlist properly. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 00:07, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:48, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep: but cut all redlinks template is useful in the quite a few articles it is used in. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 14:43, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Agree with davidwr. We should figure out whether we should link to other languages if it's the best option, especially now that browsers can translate pages as you read them. Now for something else: If it does get kept, some of the subsections should get merged, e.g. the "Frontier Ethnic Groups" section. That would reduce the length, which is definitely a problem. --Xurizuri (talk) 07:24, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
    • I would have no problem merging the district rows, so the list appears by province. Number 57 16:53, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 19:07, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete for size per WP:NAV and WP:NAVBOX. A constellation of navboxes might be reasonable from a NAV/NAVBOX perspective to resolve the size concern, but while WP:RED has a consensus that 'actively being worked on' be permitted, I still sit here and say 'what good is this navbox to me (in English, on that point)?' So I also tend toward removal of the redlinks not actively be worked either, should such a constellation be developed. --Izno (talk) 17:31, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

February 14

Template:Stadium organists


Fancruft. Templatecreep. The Banner talk 10:31, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. Just a duplicate of Category:Stadium organists with loads of unlinked names added. Nigej (talk) 16:38, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep I'm the person who created it. I understand/appreciate the reasons mentioned. I think it's useful both as a reference point to who is currently working vs. who is retired (not in the category) and also the unklinked names--not all of whom are notable but many are--can serve as a reference point to other potential article writers which does more than just the category. One of the stadium organists made DYK in October and I think it's a topic underrepresented on Wikipedia. Jessamyn (talk) 17:14, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep Millions of sports fans will find this useful. This is an extraordinarily useful template. I shared with a stadium organist who was needing background for a bio in a sports journal. As I looked at the many newspaper articles about stadium organists they were filled with accolades from fans and players who claimed these musicians made whatever game it was they enjoyed--special, nostalgic, meaningful. What I like about this template is that it includes women and the first African-American stadium organist. Wikipedia has many many pages devoted to athletes who play various sports. These musicians are just as important.Kmccook (talk) 17:20, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
    • In fact you back up my claim of fancruft. The Banner talk 18:49, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
    • Per WP:NAVBOX: we seems to fail #4 "There should be a Wikipedia article on the subject of the template." since there is no article Stadium organists. Also #3 and #5 are pretty doubtful here. All tends to indicate that we have a set of people with little connection between them, except for the obvious - they are Stadium organists. Nigej (talk) 19:35, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
      • Yeah, an article could easily be written about Stadium Organists if that is the only objection (they've been seeing a resurgence where there had previously been a lot of pre-recorded music, and it's an interesting trend along with the use of social media to interact directly with fans) but I'll wait to see the outcome of this discussion first. Jessamyn (talk) 21:07, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
        • Next step is a navigation template about stadium janitors, as they are essential? And a template for stadium ticket sellers? I maintain my stance that this is fancruft and template creep. The Banner talk 22:47, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
          • I appreciate that we're on differing sides of this, but you're coming across as needlessly insulting. There are twenty-two stadium organists who have articles about them on Wikipedia, all but one of which were written before I put this template together. They are working musicians who play music, usually live, for some of the largest sporting events in the United States. It's fine if you don't personally think the template should be on Wikipedia, but show me a single Wikipedia article about stadium janitors or stadium ticket sellers? Your stance has been noted. Jessamyn (talk) 23:20, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
            • what a classist statement about janitors. That said, this template pulls together many musicians who might not have a page and have much press in various baseball literature.Kmccook (talk) 14:53, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep - I see this template as a useful way to connect together the pages about people working in this role. I would suggest an article be created talking more about this role and its resurgence. - Dyork (talk) 01:45, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep - As seen from a country where organists seem to be either general keyboard players or play in churches, an article about this position would be informative and educational, so please write it. Palnatoke (talk) 01:56, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment - Looks like this template will work out better 1) with a lead article about Stadium organists (can do) and 2) with all the non-notable organists not included for now. I can look and see if any of them hit notability requirements, but that's a larger project. Thanks for feedback everyone. Jessamyn (talk) 19:45, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete. This fails the criteria at WP:NAVBOX, items 2, 3, 4, 5, and given the breadth and width, 1. I would not object to converting to category or similar. Certainly if no consensus or kept, it should have its non-links removed per WP:NAV. --Izno (talk) 01:07, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

February 12

Template:Infobox disputed islands


Propose merging Template:Infobox disputed islands with Template:Infobox islands.
Essentially the same scope for the primary geographic parameter set (which I haven't analyzed but I would assume that the main template is a superset), the ownership of these islands is just kind of tacked on. Whether a territory is disputed should be a facet of the territory itself rather than its own infobox. Izno (talk) 01:18, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

  • Merge to Infobox islands, no reason to separate, however I do think that the disputed island template is pretty cluttered and needs to be simplified. Like "country_claim_largest_city_population" is pretty unnecessary to add to something that is about the island and not the country claiming it. PyroFloe (talk) 09:30, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
    • Agreed. --Izno (talk) 22:29, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Merge per PyroFloe. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:21, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Merge: per PyroFloe. Thanks, Мастер Шторм (talk) 09:23, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep {{Infobox disputed islands}} for the same reasons as previously mentioned in the last nomination (which wasn't linked here for whatever reason). To quote a number of the reasons given last time, as they still apply:
    "well-defined subset of articles with special requirements. Island box doesn't support the crucial "claimed by" fields." (Future Perfect at Sunrise)
    "That they are islands is secondary (and superfluous IMO) to their status as disputed territory." (Int21h)
    "It is absolutely not redundant. Before I decided to create this template, I tried to come up with a good way to incorporate it into the regular islands infobox template, but I could come up with a way to do so due to the reasons already mentioned above. I spent a lot of time researching how to do this and trying to figure out the best way to do it. There's really no efficient way to merge these templates." (Me)
  • I will say that I'm open to some sort of Lua module addition that incorporates and streamlines the functions of this template, though I don't know how to do that myself. However, as I mentioned the last time this template was nominated here (and contrary to the opinions expressed by PyroFloe and Izno), there are (currently) many reasons to keep this template separate, foremost among them the fact that the disputed nature of the territory is usually the thing that gives the territory its notability. Most disputes are decades or centuries long, and most of the places using this template are uninhabited (or barely inhabited). ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 04:22, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep separate. It's not just because this template needs to cover additional pieces of information compared to the standard islands box (those could obviously be merged into the generic template). It's more because some of the same pieces of information that the generic box also supports need to be presented differently – e.g., info about administrative parent divisions need to be integrated into the several "claimed by..." groups. If that were to be merged properly it would lead to an enormous piece of conditional clutter, which would presumably make the resulting super-box even harder to maintain. I just don't see the benefit in that. Fut.Perf. 10:46, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

February 9

Template:Expert needed


As I posted on the talk page in October:

[D]oes this template ever work? It doesn't seem to have a way of actively notifying WikiProjects or other circles where someone who says "Hey, I know a lot about X, let me help" can actually do so. It just sits there in a category. There is a "reason" field, but I never see that used either. I never see people who use this template bring it up on the talk page. It's just a drive-by tag that's slapped on for no reason because an article is underutilized, and it literally never seems to do any good.

For instance, Music of Arkansas has had an "expert" tag since 2012, but the tagger never said anything on the talk page, nor did anyone else. I sampled a whole bunch of uses of this template, and not a single one had anything in the "reason" field, nor any relevant discussion on the talk page. It also doesn't seem like one has to be an "expert" to improve an article[...]It seems that the mere purpose of this template is redundant; in the Music of Arkansas example, {{tone}} and {{reorganize}} seem to do a better job at explaining the issues in the article.

Is this just my confirmation bias, or is this a valid concern? Is there any proof that its use actually helps in any scenario, or is it just 100% prone to drive-by tagging and superfluous to other maintenance tags? I saw the same thing happen with {{expand}} ages ago for much of the same reasons (excessive drive-by tagging, little to no explanation whenever the tag was used, redundancy to other tags).

In short, Is there a way to fix this template and make its presence more prominent to alert users who might actually be experts in the field, or should it just be deprecated?

Everyone involved in the ensuing discussion seemed to have a similar take to mine: that they've never seen it actually result in an article getting improved, that the template itself is prone to drive-by tagging, and that there are far better ways of notifying relevant editors of an article's need for improvement. Even the addition of a "reason" field does not seem to have helped any, as no one ever seems to fill it out (or worse, as on Alcoholic lung disease -- that one had both {{expert needed}} and {{cleanup}}, whose reason field stated "this article needs an expert").

The 2017 MFD, closed as "keep", had similar discussion points:

  • Whatamidoing:

    I've been watching this template on medicine-related articles for much longer than five years, and its actual effect appears to be: absolutely nothing. Outside experts don't edit it, and usually nobody else does, either. I suspect the tag of discouraging some less-than-supremely-confident editors from even trying to improve these articles. There is often no apparent rhyme or reason why the article was tagged, but there is a small tendency to tag "expert needed" when the problem is "the current version of the article doesn't agree with my POV"[...]or "I didn't understand this article, so I'm asking for an expert, even though subject-matter experts often fill articles with incomprehensible jargon"[...]But my main problem is that they just don't work.

  • Nyttend:

    I've never seen improvements resulting from using this template, and while that can't be extrapolated as far as "improvements have never resulted from using this template", I expect I'd be aware of occasional benefits if they exist. This template is about as useful as {{expand}}[...] it says "It would be nice if this article were better" but doesn't give any details, and in fact it's even less useful, because at least "Please help improve this article by expanding it" specifies how to fix the identified problem. This one doesn't even address what's wrong.

Nyttend had previously nominated the template for deletion in 2013 based off the precedent of {{expand}} being deprecated, but that discussion also closed as "keep".

In both cases, most of the "keep" votes were WP:ITSUSEFUL, or vague support like "I've seen it work before", "it's used on a lot of articles" (so was {[tl|expand!), or "it might be useful to someone" without any evidence of the sort. The 2013 TFD suggested making the "reason" field mandatory, but this does not seem to have been implemented, and people are still using it without filling in the "reason" field at all.

tl;dr: The issues dictated in the previous two MFDs still seem to be valid, and have not changed one iota since 2013. With all of the above in mind, plus the precedent established by the deprecation of {{expand}} way back in 2010, I think that this template should be deprecated. Ten Pound Hammer(What did I screw up now?) 22:27, 9 February 2021 (UTC)|1=Expert needed}}

  • Comment: Template:Example doesn't seem to be the template you mean. 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 (𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 22:29, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Deprecate and create new templates There is, in some cases, a genuine need for an expert eye on articles, but Music of Arkansas is definitely not such a case. Rather, certain topic areas are very technical and complex and a non-expert wouldn't even know where to begin. I would suggest a template series, including things like {{expert math}}, {{expert physics}}, {{expert computer science}}, and since these templates would be specific areas, they could have a mechanism for notifying wikiprojects. That said, the existing template uses should not be deleted in mass, but instead any new uses should generate an error message while old uses remain as is (if this is technically feasible). Oiyarbepsy (talk) 04:53, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
    • That would be a very bad thing, and offer nothing that cannot be done by parameters in a single template. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:18, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
  • CommentDelete I agree with what's said above. My impression is that it's often not true that the article/section needs an "expert", it just needs someone to do some work on it. For highly technical subjects it could be appropriate (I'm thinking of something like Hungarians#Ethnic affiliations and genetic origins - a meaningless rag-bag of statements), but even then more specific hatnotes would perhaps be better. Not keen on the template series idea above - I just think we need to stop this template being used inappropriately. Maybe some firm wording - and make the person adding the hatnote look for experts. Sometimes I think that adding hatnotes is just laziness. Nigej (talk) 07:31, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete As I commented on the talk page when this was first mooted:
    Thinking it might be useful, I've attempted to use it a few times, with a both a reason and discussion on the talk page, but I fear I was wasting my time. One of the instances you deleted earlier today (at Henry Eccles) does have a very good reason posted to the talk page, but it's not been addressed since 2011. At least in its present form I can't see that this template has any utility.
    There have been plenty of suggestions over the years for ways to get the template to actually do something useful, but when the evidence shows that it's failed over a 15 year period it needs to go. I'd also agree with the speculation that it may well be having a negative effect in that it implies to editors that only an expert can deal with whatever problems someone has noticed. MichaelMaggs (talk) 10:21, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep and make it work Have a bot post announcements on relevant WikiProject talk pages, and put a note on the editor's talk page saying which WikiProject talk pages it put the bot-notice on and whether those WikiProjects are active, semi-active, or inactive. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 23:27, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
    • @Davidwr: People have been trying to "make it work" since 2013. The last two MFDs had similar suggestions to yours, but no one has wanted to put in the effort to implement any kind of solution that'll raise this template's profile. It's clear from that big a length of time that no one wants to maintain this. Ten Pound Hammer(What did I screw up now?) 03:05, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep Consider adding a stipulation that it can be removed if no talk page discussion is started. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:16, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
  • @Pigsonthewing: As many other people have proven in this and the last two TFDs, that would mean removing literally every single instance. Ten Pound Hammer(What did I screw up now?) 04:20, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
  • No, not "literally". I took a quick look at articles using the template, and there are absolutely instances where reasons are given. And even if 90% were to be removed, what would be the problem? Wouldn't that make the tag more useful by removing instances where it's unhelpful? I think such a stipulation would be a good idea. Prinsgezinde (talk) 06:07, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
  • An aside I work more with categories than templates but I thought I'd add that Wikipedia has dozens of empty categories for articles that need an expert's attention (Category:All expert subject categories). If this template gets deleted, I might see if something should be done about them as well. Liz Read! Talk! 00:14, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Deprecate while occasionally useful, Wikipedia does not rely on expert editors - and there aren't really any experts looking at these queues, making this one of the worst "wishful thinking" cleanup templates. Other templates should generally suffice, with appropriate reason parameters. However, this shouldn't be substituted or deleted until all existing transclusions are evaluated and either removed or converted to a more relevant cleanup template. Elliot321 (talk | contribs) 04:58, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep I do admit it's often in need of a stated reason, but I would say that about a lot of templates. I don't think that's a very strong reason for deletion. Besides, I still think it calls attention to an important state (one that many articles are in) between "This article is a mess" and "This article is great", somewhere in the range of "This article is okay, but suffers from a range of complex issues". I've often seen it used as "I'm not familiar enough with the topic to be certain, but I'm 90% certain parts of this article are bullshit". In topics like history, it can be very difficult to find out for a layman what 14th century source is or isn't reliable. Same goes for other expert fields. In cases like this, an expert could much more effectively check the quality and reliability of the article. The first problem here is that when you get too specific, an expert will never be found. There are no experts on "Hills in Vermont" on Wikipedia, but there are plenty of experts on Geography. The second problem is that experts aren't typically going to stumble upon these articles, especially since the tag is often added to relatively low profile pages. I'm certain many people add the tag believing this will bring special attention to the page from an expert, and why shouldn't that be made possible? You mention that the template doesn't post to WikiProjects. Why wouldn't this be something that could be done technically? Prinsgezinde (talk) 05:57, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep I can agree with the original reason for suggesting deletion, but I think there is still a need for keeping the template. From what I take out of the responses so far, it says just as much about the use (or lack thereof?) of talk pages and WikiProjects. This template serves a dual purpose; along with improving highly technical articles, this is a resource for (re)building articles out of stubs or start-class status. Does Wikipedia have expert editors? On an official basis, no, since all of us can edit (nearly) any article; in practical terms, this is not true, since we have to take into account the resources, knowledge, and interests that each editor brings here. Unless using source-editing to add this tag, the reason parameter is essentially mandatory, which goes a long way in better justifying its use (answering "Why?" for everyone at a glance). Instead of deleting this outright, this template may be in need of some updating to improve its functionality; this is a discussion for its own talk page, of course. --SteveCof00 (talk) 09:31, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
  • The last two TFDs have had people suggesting improvements to its functionality. None of these have been implemented except for a "reason" field, which no one ends up using. I have asked for examples of this template providing the intended result and gotten literally zero evidence. Ten Pound Hammer(What did I screw up now?) 16:22, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment, I would support making the reason field mandatory for new instances between a finite number of possibilities (maybe mapped to wikiprojects?) that add the article to a subject-specific list. That way experts in the field can find them. If there is no mechanism for experts in a particular field to locate articles requiring an expert in their field, then I agree the tag is pretty useless. If there is no technical way to do that or no will, then maybe change them all to {{too technical}} or {{cleanup}}. Jdcooper (talk) 02:29, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment. I think we can more or less agree that the intention of this template—having someone qualified review and/or rework an article—is a valuable one; the issue is whether its execution and implementation as is actually end up solving those issues, and especially whether there are better ways of making that happen with the other tools we already have.
The biggest issue is that {{Expert needed}} has no effective means of contacting those experts. This seems to be because this template occupies a weird non-committal space between your average cleanup template and a proper workflow—it lacks the specificity and urgency that would accompany something like a request for comment, for example. There are a handful of processes that fulfill a lot of what {{Expert needed}} is trying to do; I'll list the ones that come to mind first (and please feel free to correct/add on after me):
  • Flagging attention=yes on an appropriate WikiProject template on the article's talk page. This is slightly more useful than {{Expert needed}} because it at least theoretically notifies that WikiProject (more like putting a request in the mailbox than dumping it in the driveway), but it has the same issue of "passing the buck" and hoping that someone is monitoring the "needs attention" category. Other issues: it doesn't show up in the article itself (though that could be considered an upside, considering that burying it in the talk page leads to slightly less drive-by tagging), and it doesn't allow for naming a reason (although that's (hopefully) subsumed by discussion on the talk page). It also is supposed to be used "sparingly," but then again so is {{Expert needed}}, so that doesn't mean much for our purposes.
  • Adding a request for comment from an appropriate WikiProject. This has the benefit of actually being tracked by Article Alerts, which means that there's a high chance that someone will actually respond to your query. The issue, of course, is that "query" is the operative word—RFCs are for specific questions and their resolutions, not general issues—and this doesn't end up in the article text itself, either.
  • Submitting the article for peer review. This solicits advice, but from a general audience—not experts in the field.
All this is to say that this template is trying to handle quite a few things at once, in subsuming both general verification and RFC-lite, and without any of the multi-step parts that make those less prone to the sort of spamming and stagnation that this one is. You can make the argument that {{Expert needed}} occupies a unique niche amongst these other processes; you can just as easily make the argument that it doesn't—what's most important, though, is that at the very least we know exactly what we're losing.
The main unanswered question, then, is simple: in deprecating this template, what would take its place?
LogStar100 (talk) 04:06, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete. I saw this TfD from the template in Linearized gravity. It's been there for 12 years. Clearly it didn't work. Tercer (talk) 19:25, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete. The template has been placed without clear action to follow. Not working. JohnThorne (talk) 02:18, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Deprecate in favor of Template:Disputed and cleanup templates. fgnievinski (talk) 04:24, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep. Although many of these templates have been on articles for a long time, it does have a good reason, because someone who is an expert on one of the subjects might see it as they are reading a page, and edit the article because of it, when they easily might not notice there is any problem at all if the template isn't there. This isn't really able to be measured, and probably happens a lot. Many other templates also don't have descriptions on the talk pages, so that isn't unique to this one. I don't see a real need to get rid of this now. Eric Schiefelbein (talk) 09:20, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
  • You're just restating what the template is supposed to be for but ignoring its inherent flaws. It was on an article for twelve years where nothing happened. I get that there is no deadline, but that doesn't mean that maintenance templates can just sit gathering dust forever like this. I have seen zero evidence of any so-called "experts" coming to rescue an article, and no one has ever been able to come forth with a single instance of this template serving its intended purpose. Ten Pound Hammer(What did I screw up now?) 23:29, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Deprecate. For anyone who's on the fence about this one, I implore you to compare the current set of articles using the template and the historical backlog (WikiBlame to see when the template was removed), because it is painful. Stuff like Arizona Stadium (inexplicably) is the most notable, but most of it is just removal because of how vague and unhelpful it ends up being—let alone the fact that in actuality it means "soft rewrite, but I don't want to do it." I can't think of any circumstances where this template isn't superseded by one of the myriad other better ways of soliciting help. –LogStar100 (talk) 04:25, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete. If the help of an expert is needed, it will be apparent to the expert, almost by definition. So it's not just that it doesn't serve any purpose. But it also cannot serve any purpose. It's had its time in the sun. It's had its chances; people have tried to improve it. Please remove it. Run to the hills! (talk) 19:00, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
  • On the rare occasions where I've encountered this template, my impression has been that a major aspect of its function is to inform readers. Its message is fundamentally "This article treats its subject matter in a superficial way, and it may outright misrepresent it." The implication of this template for editors is that the problems of the article aren't reducible to issues of completeness or sourcing, and that they aren't fixable in a day spent thumbing through textbooks. What other templates are there that convey the same message? – Uanfala (talk) 19:39, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
    @Uanfala: Template:Disputed, Template:Confusing, Template:Technical, etc. fgnievinski (talk) 21:50, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
    I'm struggling to see any sort of overlap – even partial – between Template:exert needed and these templates: the last two indicate issues with style, while Template:Disputed is used, according to its documentation, when an article's truth or factual nature is in dispute. There are many disputes that can be resolved without any special expertise (e.g. by simply looking up a reference work), and conversely, the sort of issued flagged up as needing expert input don't necessarily involve disputes, and only very rarely boil down to a simple problem with factual accuracy. – Uanfala (talk) 22:41, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
    You said: Its message is fundamentally "This article treats its subject matter in a superficial way, and it may outright misrepresent it." Misrepresention allegations are synonym to content dispute, no? And for allegations of superficiality, there's Template:Missing information. fgnievinski (talk) 01:18, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
    Template:Missing information is used when there are concrete gaps in an article's coverage, not when the coverage is present but it's superficial and not sufficiently informed by the literature on the subject. – Uanfala (talk) 01:57, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete . I don't think you need to be a expert to edit a article. Second, there are a lot of people trying to improve it. We don't need to be a expert to edit Wikipedia. Larry Z Contact me my edits 22:21, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Deprecate. If a article needs expert attention then the expert should go through proper channels like the respective WikiProject or through other templates like Cleanup/Disputed in addition experts will find which articles need their attention in relation to the existing templates regarding quality of articles. - || RuleTheWiki || (talk) 06:16, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia would be a very different place if we had expert editors like this template is calling for. Whether better or worse is a good question. But we don't, partially because of what happened with Essjay 14 years ago. And we're never going to, in this iteration of the project anyway. On that basis, the template has to go. ◦ Trey Maturin 18:39, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete. Useless. Action is never or hardly ever taken on it. (I say "hardly ever" just because one should "never say never".) Kill it. Lou Sander (talk) 03:32, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete serves no purpose other than to put off likely editors who feel that they are not the called-for expert. and as per other comments is a very vague tag and as mentioned above wikipedia is not for expert editors.--Iztwoz (talk) 09:34, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep. I'm leaving aside the perceived failure of this template to attract editor attention (and isn't that a problem with most content-related maintenance templates anyway?). The real issue is that it's used to flag up a serious problem with an article's content, and one that is addressed to the readers first and foremost – removing this template from any of the 4,300 articles it's used on is completely out of the question. Replacing it with another template wouldn't work either, as there don't seem to be any that come close. Changing the template's wording may, however, be an option – its message can easily be rephrased to avoid the taboo word "expert", or to give a clearer statement of the article's failings. – Uanfala (talk) 22:41, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep. I do agree that it currently lacks effectiveness, but as Prinsgezinde mentioned there indeed are a lot of things that can really only be described as "it's clearly bad but I don't have enough time to find out how" in the site. I recommend making |reason= mandatory just like what's already been done with {{cleanup}}. --Artoria2e5 🌉 09:57, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete. We already have other templates for the vague "someone should do something here" that do not imply you need to be an expert to do it. This is Wikipedia, after all. Zarasophos (talk) 21:14, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete Drive-by tagging is problematic because it is useless if we don't know why it needs "expert attention". For the less technical topics, Google Scholar will work as long as you have at least an undergraduate-level understanding of the subject, and overly-technical articles already have their own tag for when we do need an "expert" to clarify the article; {{Disputed}}, {{Confusing}}, and {{Missing information}} are likely to be useful as well. I've got a feeling that nobody is trying to process these tags... –LaundryPizza03 (d) 08:00, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
    • Many of the most unsuitable tags do date back 10 years and more. See eg Barnard Stadium (from 2009) which apparently "needs attention from an expert in Rugby union or South Africa". Nigej (talk) 08:31, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Delete except where reason is set. All articles not assessed as being "good" or above should in an ideal world get attention from an expert, but orange banners everywhere won't make that any faster. Tagging articles ad hoc as needing attention is superfluous; it's not a proper triage system to find the articles most in need. OTOH if someone has written in a reason then the template should be substed onto the page so it can still be acted upon. User:GKFXtalk 17:07, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Pause I think there is room for more creative solutions, rather than the one-size-fits-all choice of deletion/keep. I looked in one of my areas of interest and found Wikipedia:WikiProject_Mathematics#Things_to_do which lists on its third line "Apply your expert knowledge to improve an article Category:Mathematics articles needing expert attention" There I found over 160 articles, many with specific concerns raised. I don't think all that information should be thrown out. On the other hand I would agree with removing tags with no further information and more than a couple of years old, if there is a way to do that. We could also encourage other projects to adopt some existing expert needed categories like Mathematics has. Is there a tool that would list the number of items in such categories so the backlog might be more apparent? The total number of articles tagged Expert needed is small enough for a concerted cleanup project. Let's give this some more thought.--agr (talk) 21:35, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment Perhaps it does just need a massive purge. eg Boy, List of newspapers in Canada "The specific problem is: Canada doesn't have just one faith-based newspaper, right?" Ice hockey in Bosnia and Herzegovina "The specific problem is: inadequate content on the historical and cultural aspects of the subject". The question is whether that really solves the fundamental problems - it's too easy to tag and nothing ever happens. Nigej (talk) 22:00, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
    • Yeah, cleaning up questionable existing uses of the template is definitely a good idea. On List of newspapers in Canada, for example, it should probably be replaced with something like {{expand list}}. Ice hockey in Bosnia and Herzegovina could simply have all its maintenance templates removed: it's a stub, so these problems are obvious without banners at the top. Boy, on the other hand, looks like a good use – the placement of the template in April 2019 was accompanied by a talk page post which triggered a series of discussions, touching on the very point of the article's existence. – Uanfala (talk) 15:01, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
      • The trouble with the Boy example is that it although there was a general discussion, it's not obvious that it did get edited by an expert, and now the tag is simply a reminder of that discussion, serving no useful purpose. Seems to indicate that perhaps there needs to be a time aspect to the tag. Delete after x months but let it be readded. We need to force the tagger to do some work. Nigej (talk) 18:05, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
        • Well, Boy is probably not the clearest example, as the tag is used in conjunction with other tags (for completeness and style). Still, setting an expiry date on the template is, in my opinion, a solid no-no. The template is not a time-limited request for assistance (at least it's not just that), it primarily signals to readers that something substantial is off in the article's content. This sort of message shouldn't be removed until and unless the issue has been resolved (WP:DETAG). Would we ever dream of automatically removing {{unsourced}} or {{POV}} from articles that have remained unsourced or one-sided after x months? – Uanfala (talk) 18:34, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
          • I'm of the view that leaving large numbers of inappropriate "expert" tags around, because there's a chance we might delete an appropriate one, a much worse approach. Some sort of review is needed when the tag is added and then at intervals thereafter. And if people are not prepared to do that, it should be removed. Nigej (talk) 20:29, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
  • keep but update the template. Updated template shouldn't work without "reason=" parameter, and at least one wikiproject. The mentioned wikiproject should either be notified, or there should be an automated list displaying the articles with the tag. —usernamekiran (talk) 04:05, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:State results of the 2020 U.S. presidential election


The pages are already linked on {{2020 United States elections}}. - CHAMPION (talk) (contributions) (logs) 07:34, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

February 8

Bob Willis Trophy templates


Pointless templates, only used once, so we should subst and delete Joseph2302 (talk) 15:03, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

  • Subst and delete to Bob Willis Trophy where they clearly should be. Nigej (talk) 15:23, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Template:2020 Bob Willis Trophy South Group is used twice - also used on the Kent County Cricket Club in 2020 article. In recent years it seems that only Kent have had articles written on them. There is potential to use these elsewhere as well fwiw - on 2020 English cricket season for example. Blue Square Thing (talk) 15:32, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
    • The Kent article should link to the Bob Willis Trophy article which should contain the detail, the Kent article containing some text "eg Kent finished runner-up in the ...". There's no need for the detailed table to appear in two places. Nigej (talk) 16:29, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
      • I disagree about there being no need for the table there - particularly with such a short table. Just about every club article linked from Template:2018–19 in English men's football has a cut down version of the relevant league table showing 5-7 places in it, for example. Given that this table only had that many teams in it, it doesn't seem unreasonable that we should do that here as well. Blue Square Thing (talk) 10:25, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
      • More importantly, the nomination is in error in this regard. Regardless of how people think they should be used, one of them is being used elsewhere. Blue Square Thing (talk) 10:29, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose as per precedent. Template:2019 County Championship Division One etc are only used in the same places. Spa-Franks (talk) 16:51, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Keep Used elsewhere, and has potential to be used in many other places, for example if anyone resumes season pages for more of the counties (similar to every football team, which I believe tend to include similar templates). Bs1jac (talk) 17:46, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Primefac (talk) 02:16, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose - I suppose I should make that clear. Blue Square Thing (talk) 07:43, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Subst and delete This is purely static information that has no reason to be in a template regardless of how many pages it is used on. * Pppery * it has begun... 21:10, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
  • subst and delete, single use, and even if it were not single use, we could use WP:LST to show elsewhere. Frietjes (talk) 18:52, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –Piranha249 (Discuss with me) 16:36, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Subst and delete per Pppery. --Izno (talk) 18:47, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Subst and delete per above. No need to put tables like this in templates when you can put them directly in the article. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 17:46, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Completed discussions[edit]

If process guidelines are met, move templates to the appropriate subsection here to prepare to delete. Before deleting a template, ensure that it is not in use on any pages (other than talk pages where eliminating the link would change the meaning of a prior discussion), by checking Special:Whatlinkshere for '(transclusion)'. Consider placing {{Being deleted}} on the template page.


There are several tools that can help when implementing TfDs. Some of these are listed below.

Closing discussions[edit]

The closing procedures are outlined at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Closing instructions.

To review[edit]

Templates for which each transclusion requires individual attention and analysis before the template is deleted.

To merge[edit]

Templates to be merged into another template.


Param mapping
    mapping = {
        # Header / misc
        'boxtype' => nil, # only support boxtype = 'locomotive'
        'Farbe1' => nil, # color
        'Farbe2' => nil, # color
        'Baureihe' => 'name',
        'Abbildung' => 'image',
        'Name' => 'caption',

        # General
        'Nummerierung' => '', # "Number(s) allocated to the vehicle(s)"
        'Hersteller' => 'builder',
        'Baujahre' => 'builddate',
        'Indienststellung' => 'firstrundate',
        'Ausmusterung' => 'retiredate',
        'Anzahl' => 'totalproduction',
        'Wheel arrangement' => 'whytetype | aarwheels', # ambiguous? which one is it?
        'Achsformel' => '', # same as above
        'Gattung' => '', # some form of class (eg "S 37.19")
        'Spurweite' => 'gauge',
        'Höchstgeschwindigkeit' => 'maxspeed',

        # Wheels (should wheelbase sub-params be used in [[Template:Infobox locomotive]]?)
        'Laufraddurchmesser vorn' => 'leadingdiameter',
        'Laufraddurchmesser hinten' => 'trailingdiameter',
        'Laufraddurchmesser außen' => '', # Outer carrying wheel diameter, Garratt locomotives
        'Laufraddurchmesser innen' => '', # Inner carrying wheel diameter, Garratt locomotives
        'Laufraddurchmesser' => '',
        'Treibraddurchmesser' => 'driverdiameter',

        # Weight, dimensions and Axles
        'Leermasse' => 'locoweight', # "Total weight of vehicle when empty"
        'Dienstmasse' => 'tenderweight',
        'Reibungsmasse' => 'weightondrivers',
        'Radsatzfahrmasse' => 'axleload',
        'Höhe' => 'height',
        'Breite' => 'width',

        # Steam traction / cylinders
        'Zylinderanzahl' => 'cylindercount',
        'Zylinderdurchmesser' => 'cylindersize',
        'Kolbenhub' => '', # "[[Piston stroke]] - I think current template requires this to be <br>'d onto cyclindercount, if so, that should probably be changed in template"
        'Heizrohrlänge' => '', # Heating tube length. totalsurface/tubearea is provided, but this is an area, not a length?
        'Rostfläche' => '', # "Grate area"
        'Strahlungsheizfläche' => '', # "Radiative heating area, Firebox + combustion chamber"
        'Überhitzerfläche' => '', # Superheater area
        'Verdampfungsheizfläche' => '', # Evaporative heating area, Firebox heating area + combustion chamber + heating tubes + smoke tubes (total heating area)

        # Misc
        'Steuerungsart' => 'valvegear',
        'Tenderbauart' => '', # Tender
        'Wasser' => 'watercap',
        'Brennstoff' => 'fueltype + fuelcap', # in practice, may solely be 'fuelcap'
        'Lokbremse' => 'locobrakes',
        'Bremsen' => 'trainbrakes',

        # Undocumented
        'VorneLaufraddurchmesser' => '',
        'HintenLaufraddurchmesser' => '',
        'LängeÜberPuffer' => 'length/over bufferbeams', # ?
        'Kesseldruck' => 'boilerpressure',
        'AnzahlHeizrohre' => '',
        'AnzahlRauchrohre' => '',
        'IndizierteLeistung' => '',
        'HDZylinderdurchmesser' => '',
        'NDZylinderdurchmesser' => ''
Parameter comparison
Infobox reality talent
competition parameter
Infobox reality competition
season parameter
Result from the merge
(Infobox television season parameter)
Delete (unnecessary)
logo image Rename to image
logo_size image_size Rename to image_size
image_alt Keep (change any uses of logo_alt to image_alt)
caption caption Keep
season season_number
(Infobox television season parameter)
Delete (unnecessary)
N/A Delete
aired released
(Infobox television season parameter)
Rename to released
first_aired first_aired
(Infobox television season parameter)
last_aired last_aired
(Infobox television season parameter)
judges Keep (change any use of "judge" to "judges")
coaches N/A New parameter, merge over
presenter Keep (change any use of "presenters" to "presenter")
host host Keep
copresenter N/A Delete, merge content to "presenter"
cohost N/A Delete, merge content to "host"
broadcaster network
(Infobox television season parameter)
Rename to network
competitors num_contestants Rename to num_contestants
N/A New parameter, merge over
country country
(Infobox television season parameter)
num_tasks num_tasks Keep
runtime N/A Delete, unnecessary
num_episodes num_episodes
(Infobox television season parameter)
website website
(Infobox television season parameter)
winner-name winner Rename to winner
image N/A Delete (this one is for the winner image)
winner-origin N/A Delete, unnecessary
winner-song N/A Delete, unnecessary
winner-genre N/A Delete, unnecessary
N/A Keep, rename to winner_mentor, winner_coach
runner-name runner_up Rename to runner_up
last prev_season
(Infobox television season parameter)
Rename (but may not be required)
next next_season
(Infobox television season parameter)
Rename (but may not be required)
N/A Delete, unnecessary
Template updated with the new parameters, just need to convert old uses now. --Gonnym (talk) 09:25, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Soon as my other bot run finishes I'll get on it. Primefac (talk) 14:20, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
@Primefac: Thank you! Let myself or Gonnym know if you have any questions. I hope my table above will be useful in figuring out what needs to be kept, replaced, or outright deleted. And as Gonnym said, the new parameters are all ready to go once the merge has been made. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:38, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
I'll have to re-think the usage of the bot, though... {{Infobox reality talent competition}} is an infobox proper, while {{Infobox reality competition season}} is designed as a child/subbox. Some might be easy enough to convert into an {{infobox television}} usage, such as at Singapore Idol, but in places like World Idol it will need merging into the main IB. Primefac (talk) 15:53, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Correct. Whatever had {{Infobox reality talent competition}} will ultimately now need to have {{Infobox television season}} as the infobox proper, and the {{Infobox reality competition season}} as a child/subbox through |module1=. If I can help define or clarify anything for you to help you with the bot, let me know. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 02:19, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Doing... TheTVExpert (talk) 15:18, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

I've written some regex for AWB but my problem is that I don't know how (or even if it's possible) to set a whole row as a conditional check. Currently this fails if the template isn't written in this exact order. Any ideas? @Primefac: have any ideas?

Find: \{\{Infobox reality talent competition\n.*\|.*name.*=.*\n.*\|.*logo.*=\s?(.*)\n.*\|.*logo_alt.*=\s?(.*)\n.*\|.*first_aired.*=\s?(.*)\n.*\|.*last_aired.*=\s?(.*)\n.*\|.*judges.*=\s?(.*)\n.*\|.*coaches.*=\s?(.*)\n.*\|.*host.*=\s?(.*)\n.*\|.*cohost.*=\s?(.*)\n.*\|.*broadcaster.*=\s?(.*)\n.*\|.*competitors.*=\s?(.*)\n.*\|.*finalsvenue.*=\s?(.*)\n.*\|.*num_tasks.*=\s?(.*)\n.*\|.*image.*=\s?(.*)\n.*\|.*caption.*=\s?(.*)\n.*\|.*winner-name .*=\s?(.*)\n.*\|.*winner-origin.*=\s?(.*)\n\|winner-genre.*=\s?(.*)\n.*\|.*winner-song.*=\s?(.*)\n.*\|.*runner-name.*=\s?(.*)\n.*\|.*runner-image.*=\s?(.*)\n\}\}

Replace: {{Infobox television season\n| image = $1\n| image_alt = $2\n| module1 = {{Infobox reality competition season \n | host = $7\n | judges = $5\n | num_contestants = $10\n | winner = $15\n | runner_up = $19\n}}\n| network = $9\n| first_aired = $3\n| last_aired = $4\n}} --Gonnym (talk) 21:27, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Oof, that's a bit nuts. I'll try to dig into that regex soon, but I'm starting to think that using an AWB module to save, store, and modify those parameters to convert the template use might be the best way forward. The other thing we should probably do is find out where the template is used alongside {{infobox television}}, since we shouldn't convert it to "season" if that's there (instead, just folding it in). Primefac (talk) 22:10, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
@Gonnym and Primefac: maybe an oversimplification, but since {{Infobox reality talent competition}} is now converted into a full wrapper, can't we just subst it? (after cleaning it up for subst, ofc)? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:28, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
Template substitution isn't my strong side so if you know how to do it, then I'm all for it. --Gonnym (talk) 11:47, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
I know how to turn it into a subst-able wrapper, however I don't know how if it achieves the acceptable results here. Primefac has looked at specific cases above it seems, so he may be better placed than me to answer that part. But if it works, that makes achieving the merge easier than regex-hell. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:27, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
In a word, yes; I think cleaning up post-merge will be easier than all of the complex silliness above. I'll put it on my list of things to do. Right after I make my list of things to do... Primefac (talk) 15:45, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
@Gonnym and Favre1fan93: I've made a substable wrapper in the sandbox based on your wrapper. Go to any transclusion, plug a /sandbox on the end (or change to {{Infobox reality talent competition/sandbox}} if it's using a redirect) and preview. This should be how it looked pre-wrapper. Then chuck a subst: in front and preview, and this is how it'd look being substed. By my eye, testing on a couple of pages, this all looks correct, however the winner's national origin isn't being mapped in the wrapper (Gonnym?). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:24, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Gonnym: is there consensus to remove the various parameters removed in the current wrapper? See eg pages in Category:Pages using infobox reality talent competition with unknown parameters, for example The X Factor (British series 11) when previewed with the sandbox version (which will show the old template v before your wrapper convert). It seems like many labels missing? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 07:37, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Navigation templates[edit]

Link templates[edit]


2020 February 1Football_squad_player ( links | transclusions | talk | doc | sandbox | testcases )
  • At this point this is ready for large scale replacement. I said a while ago that I could do it but due to me being quite busy IRL this seems unlikely to get done in a timely manner. If you feel like doing a large scale replacement job feel free to take this one. --Trialpears (talk) 17:34, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
    • Trialpears, what large-scale replacement? I (foolishly?) jumped into this rabbit hole, and have been in it for over a day now. This is a very complex merge; I've got the documentation diff to show fewer differences, but there's still more to be done. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:04, 14 February 2021 (UTC)


To convert[edit]

Templates for which the consensus is that they ought to be converted to some other format are put here until the conversion is completed.

To substitute[edit]

Templates for which the consensus is that all instances should be substituted (e.g. the template should be merged with the article or is a wrapper for a preferred template) are put here until the substitutions are completed. After this is done, the template is deleted from template space.

To orphan[edit]

These templates are to be deleted, but may still be in use on some pages. Somebody (it doesn't need to be an administrator, anyone can do it) should fix and/or remove significant usages from pages so that the templates can be deleted. Note that simple references to them from Talk: pages should not be removed. Add on bottom and remove from top of list (oldest is on top).

  • None currently

Ready for deletion[edit]

Templates for which consensus to delete has been reached, and for which orphaning has been completed, can be listed here for an administrator to delete. Remove from this list when an item has been deleted. See also {{Deleted template}}, an option to delete templates while retaining them for displaying old page revisions.

  • None currently

Archive and Indices[edit]