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Submitting other editor's drafts, even when unfinished[edit]

What's the deal with editors submitting other users' draft articles for AfC? I whole bunch of times now ([1], [2], [3], [4]) another editor has submitted an article I have been putting together in draft space to go through AfC. Is this common practice? My impression was that draft space was for drafting articles, not specifically for putting articles through AfC, and I'm confused why my unfinished drafts keep getting tagged to go through this process. I've written enough articles to know when something is good enough to be moved over; if nothing else there's simply no need for AfC! If it's the case that editors think my drafts are good enough to go live, then I'd rather they just messaged me and asked. Sam Walton (talk) 12:35, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

It's nothing personal, it's just how editors are dealing with the backlog of 6 month unedited stale drafts now subject to WP:G13. Sending good drafts to AfC is a way to prevent them from being deleted (at least for 6 months), and get a second set of eyes and feedback to the author and hopefully encourage the author or someone else checking AfC cats to get it ready for mainspace. You are welcome to edit out the AfC template if you don't want feedback or someone to improve and promote the page. Legacypac (talk) 12:52, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
@Samwalton9: See above, however a recent change to G13 now allows any page in Draft namespace to be nominated for speedy deletion on the grounds that it has not been edited in 6 months. Hasteur (talk) 21:07, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
As Legacypac illustrates, if you want to work on your drafts you need to do it in user space. Anything in draft space is fair game now because we're tracking a backlog. Chris Troutman (talk) 21:25, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

@User:Chris troutman [5] this edit summary deserves a comment. I've had about 3 times more editors thank me for bringing old pages to their attention than that have complained. The vast majority of the cleared pages are problematic or pointless abandoned garbage dumped in draft space. Suspected Copyvio, unreferenced BLPs, pure vandalism, SPAM, Attack pages etc. I tag the very worst with other CSD than G13 User:Legacypac/CSD_log but for the most part just don't bother with potentially arguing over another criteria when G13 is an assured delete. Legacypac (talk) 23:14, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

@Chris troutman: also going to take offense to sadly, many editors don't recognize the fact that writers want to be left alone to write rather than see their work interfered with. Your thesis fails on the very first point writers want to be left alone to write. If that were the case, the page wouldn't be hitting 6 months unedited, now would it? Hasteur (talk) 01:41, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
@Hasteur and Legacypac: I have 18 userspace subpages, some of them years old. I keep them there because it's content I intend to develop as more source material becomes available and I can write as I please. I feel a huge sense of ownership on my words, as any real writer would. Inactivity does not equate to disinterest. I haven't demeaned the efforts of Legacypac as they are dutifully working through the backlog. I am rankled at the callousness we treat other editors' work. I don't care how you treat the n00bz here to promote their band or some such. Those of us that have been contributing for years deserve (I think) a little more consideration. I acknowledged that draft space is not the place to store material long-term but can't we discuss these matters with our fellow editors before we muck around with their content? And before you feed me the "irrevocably agree to release your contribution" line in the Terms of Use, remember that shooting inside the tent isn't helping. Chris Troutman (talk) 01:56, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
Active users have significant latitude in what they can store in Userspace. The RFC at WP:CSD talk was very clear that WP:G13 would be applied to all Draftspace. Was there anything else to discuss? Legacypac (talk) 02:04, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
Again, thesis broken by the very first line. "I have 18 userspace subpages", and therefore they aren't under consideration in any form. Would you rather we delete the pages off directly with "impartial, no consideration" G13, or is submitting them to AFC so that they get at least one review indicating what's wrong the minimum we can offer? Hasteur (talk) 02:06, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
@Hasteur and Legacypac: Once more: Samwalton9 now knows that draft space is open to other editors. The mistake was his. I am bemoaning the bureaucratic attitude evinced here. Yes, you can G13 old drafts or submit them and I support that activity. What I'm pointing out is that when you see a draft from a longtime editor, perhaps instead of just pressing buttons as you're used to, you could drop that editor a line about it? All I'm looking for is that we extend a little professional courtesy; I'm not suggesting we change our business practices. But hey, if you want to take offense to me taking offense, fine. Please don't myopically support your chosen business practice at the expense of fellow editors. Chris Troutman (talk) 02:16, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
Chris you appear to reject my process developed from my actual experience as invalid. Feel free to try it your way, and after a couple thousand pages processed let us know how it went. User:MusikBot/StaleDrafts/Report User:MusikBot/StaleDrafts/Report/AfC and. Legacypac (talk) 02:42, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
While I understand both sides of this debate, I tend to agree with Chris. I'd much rather have drafts by veteran editors waiting in the shadows than stubs and poorly referenced starters in mainspace. I'm guilty of needing to be "inspired" to create, research and write so when the creative juices are flowing, I'll go straight to mainspace with a stub because they're actually less likely to be "disturbed" than in draft space. Isn't that backwards? ??? Just curious...which is better - stubs in mainspace or draft space? Atsme📞📧 13:48, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Draft space is a newer invention at Wikipedia. The founders idea was that one person starts, another expands, someone adds a ref and so on. Pages in mainspace get expanded and fixed by multiple authors. There is no such thing as "done" Legacypac (talk) 15:09, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Another cool tool[edit]

I just made toollabs:apersonbot/pending-subs, which shows a list of AfC submissions that you can filter. (Inspired by my struggles clicking "sort" on WP:AFC/S and waiting 5 minutes for it to filter.) It's a bit out of date now, because it parses {{AFC statistics}}, but it should have updated data as soon as Earwig wakes his bot up. Enterprisey (talk!) 07:23, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

That's pretty cool Enterprisey thanks. Whispering 03:33, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Too Strict?[edit]

I'm hardly an inclusionist but if this artist does not pass notability guidelines we need to change the guidelines. Draft:Glen_Loates Legacypac (talk) 22:11, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

@Legacypac: Perhaps you should re-read the criteria. First, this draft generally lacks sources independent of the author. Places that sell or exhibit an artist's work are automatically suspect unless they verify that an artist's work is permanently on exhibit. Second, the subject also fails WP:ANYBIO. Notability isn't something you can just imagine; it would be inappropriate for you to insert your own belief about notability into work constrained by our collective consensus. The notability rules simply don't include an artist like this. If you think the sculptors like Augustus Saint-Gaudens that engrave numismatic designs ought to be notable, you're welcome to raise the issue. Chris Troutman (talk) 22:26, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
It might look that way on the surface, especially if you just look through the refs in the reflist that have URLs that you can click on (none of which have significant coverage of the artist), but with multiple books on the author's work written by others (that aren't available online), I don't think we can possible conclude that there is not independent reliable coverage of the artist. Clearly notable per GNG. — Insertcleverphrasehere (or here) 22:35, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Yes, indeed. I see Paul Duval's The Art of Glen Loates and Glen Loates: Birds of North America by James both from Cerberus Publishing Limited as well as Glen Loates: A Brush with Life from Abrams Books. I stupidly overlooked those. the article really doesn't make use of them. There might be a GNG case there. Chris Troutman (talk) 22:44, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
The artist has been a notable Canadian wildlife painter for decades and I've got his $2 coin in my pocket. I don't consider info published by the Royal Canadian Mint to be "automatically suspect". Legacypac (talk) 22:40, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment on non URL refs; I think the problem here is that a lot of AfC decliners want to see references that meet WP:42 that they can verify by clicking on (i.e. available online). Articles based on sources that aren't available online are a potential issue, because they have been used to propagate some of the longest running wikipedia hoax articles, so I don't blame users for being careful with them. However, checking for non URL refs on google books can sometimes show you whether they exist or not, even if they aren't available online, and we can't just ignore non URLed refs when deciding notability. — Insertcleverphrasehere (or here) 22:43, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

The books are listed, but they feature his art so are likely not useful for biographical info. [6] [7] I also discover his work featured in other books [8] and check out the newspaper article where he is standing with Reagan that calls him "Canada's foremost wildlife artists" [9] and additional books are listed in the text at that link. Legacypac (talk) 23:29, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Timeline[edit]

Can we change the guidance in our templates from three weeks to more like "several weeks". This is probably about the fourth or fifth time I've run into an editor who got finished, came back in 21 days, and then immediately thought something was wrong. I think we all pretty well know that three weeks is not a hard deadline. So we probably shouldn't be making it look like it is and confusing the newbies. GMGtalk 10:28, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

I'll do you one better. The old system is based on arbitrary numbers determining how long it will take to review. I'll update I've updated the code to dynamically update based on how many pages are in the various categories. Primefac (talk) 13:00, 27 September 2017 (UTC) Updated: Primefac (talk) 18:23, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Previously deleted draft[edit]

Ambox warning blue.svgTemplate:Previously deleted draft has been nominated for deletion. Watchers of this page are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Steel1943 (talk) 15:58, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

A few thoughts[edit]

Moved from WT:AFCP Primefac (talk) 16:33, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

I just wanted to make a note regarding cv-declines via AFCH. I've noticed recently editors like Chrissymad have been unchecking the "blank this draft" option when declining as cv/adding G12s, and for that I thank them. It is much faster to check the violation status of a draft when one doesn't have to find the previous revision and then scan. It also helps if it's not 100%-deletable (i.e. there's salvageable info) because it keeps the decline while allowing me to remove the offending comment.

So, if you're declining as cv in the future, please don't blank it. Thanks. Primefac (talk) 15:35, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. Legacypac (talk) 17:49, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Star Trek redirects[edit]

I've been working on creating a lot of the various common name articles for the (mostly) fishes that been here for over a week, but then I noticed some requests for redirects to various Star Trek related pages. I'm not sure that they would pass through RfD so can someone else take a look at them and possibly create them if they are appropriate? Thanks, Sakura Cartelet Talk 03:04, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

I share your concern. I too have reservation about that barrage of redirect requests (majority by IP users). It is obvious many will be deleted in the long run, or some will never be used to find an article. You'll see many requests left unattended because the IP user requested so many. I think there should be some sort of limit in this requests. These IP users just seem to enjoy the thing –Ammarpad (talk) 05:16, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Farsi-speaking reviewer[edit]

Please do we have reviewer who can verify sources in Farsi? Because some article creators just bungle many sources which did'nt directly support claim or prefered one language than English to confuse reviewers. The drafts is at Draft:Mohammad-Saleh Komeyli. It is also said their is corresponding article in Farsi Wikipedia. If none, is there any suggestion on treating article with no single source in English? Thanks everybody. –Ammarpad (talk) 05:03, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Another Canadian Artist rejected[edit]

This page Draft:Malaya_Akulukjuk was rejected for lacking inline citations, but I see author's names and page numbers throughout. The creator left it - likely unsure how to proceed - so it is up for G13 which is not good. Legacypac (talk) 02:50, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

And here is another one. Draft:Robert_Kost_(Artist) represented in significant collections and lots of references showing notability. Legacypac (talk) 03:00, 17 October 2017 (UTC)