Template talk:Ambox

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fix displays in small version[edit]

We have this bit of documentation in Template:Ambox#issue and fix: But when used inside {{Multiple issues}} or with small=left it displays only the issue:, yet with small = left, we see both the issue and the suggested fix. I am not sure which is supposed to be correct, the doc or the template. Izno (talk) 06:03, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I can't remember what the intention was now ... which do you think works best? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:19, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Why is ambox the only message box which the "small" parameter works with?[edit]

Hello,

As demonstrated by the above, I have to use an ambox outside of mainspace to have a small message box. Does anyone know why this is the case? Looking at Module:Message box, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work. Does anyone know? Regards, DesertPipeline (talk) 13:45, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Only the templates with allowSmall = true in the configuration page, per the documentation. Izno (talk) 16:37, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
User:Izno: When you say "configuration page", what are you referring to? Regards, DesertPipeline (talk) 02:45, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
Ah, I found what you mean. I was a bit confused: They do allow small, but not small=left. Would it be okay to change the other message box templates (or perhaps at least ombox) so that they can also use small=left? Is there some reason why this isn't the case already? Thanks, DesertPipeline (talk) 02:55, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
I have a hard time seeing why you would need to do that for the other kinds of boxes. What is the use case? Izno (talk) 05:04, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
User:Izno: See the box at the top of this section. I'd like to be able to use a message box which doesn't have the coloured part on the left, while still making it appear smaller and on the left so it's not too "glaring". DesertPipeline (talk) 06:06, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
No, I don't want to see what kind of box you want, I want to know where and why you want to use it. Izno (talk) 06:11, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
User:Izno: I just want to be able to use small message boxes left-aligned on other Wikipedia pages which aren't articles without having to use an ambox template, causing the coloured part on the left. DesertPipeline (talk) 10:25, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
@DesertPipeline: A long time ago there was a wide variety of message boxes that used different styles, so that the top of a page could look very messy (see c:File:NewbieTags.png). Then in 2007 came message box standardisation (see c:File:NewbieTagsAfter.png), and so we now have the {{ambox}} ones for articles, the {{tmbox}} ones for talk pages, and so on; and it's all neat and consistent. Why would you want to undo that careful work? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 10:19, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
User:Redrose64: I don't want to undo any careful work; I simply want to have a small left-aligned ombox for use on pages which aren't articles. DesertPipeline (talk) 10:25, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
You continue to be vague about where you're doing this, with phrases like "outside of mainspace" and "other Wikipedia pages which aren't articles". We can't give proper assistance unless you give us specifics. But, don't try to misuse {{ambox}} (which, as shown in its doc, is for messageboxes on article pages) for a purpose that it wasn't designed for. First, choose the appropriate message box for the namespace concerned, they're listed at Template:Ambox#Mbox family. Then, if it doesn't do what is intended and a change can be justified, propose an amendment on the talk page of that template. So, to suggest a change to {{ombox}}, you would do this at Template talk:Ombox. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:45, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
User:Redrose64: Sorry. I'd just like, after line 201 in Module:Message box/configuration, the lines
smallParam                  = 'left',
smallClass                  = 'mbox-small-left',
to be added. I should probably put this request there. DesertPipeline (talk) 02:21, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
OK, so you've raised Module talk:Message box#Fully-protected edit request on 27 June 2021. But you still haven't explained where it is that you need to use a small message box, nor why it needs to be small and not the normal size. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:37, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Possible redesign of small=left version[edit]

I have implemented a requested edit at Template:Incomplete list which uses a custom designed smaller version of ambox which is left aligned and automatically adjusting width. If this change sticks it would make sense to modify other templates (e.g. {{expand section}}) to match. Rather than adding an additional variant of ambox, I wonder whether we should explore changing the small=left version to match this style? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:29, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

I've copied current and sandboxed versions of {{expand section}} below for comparison — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:33, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
User:MSGJ: Do you think it might help to post about this discussion on one of the village pump pages, whichever is appropriate, to get more input? DesertPipeline (talk) 13:43, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
User:MSGJ: Since nobody has objected, I think it might be okay to start an edit request for this – that might help to start a discussion with whoever responds at least, if they don't want to implement it yet. Also, would it be a better idea to have a different parameter variable for the width-variable version? Something like |small=variable maybe? DesertPipeline (talk) 14:14, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
Support new layout of small=left. Nice and compact.  Question: would the modification be for {{ambox}} only? Looking at Module:Message box, it seems that the CSS is taken from the .mbox-small-left class at MediaWiki:Common.css, line 910. But that is used for when |small=left for any message box. Not sure what you're intending. — hike395 (talk) 04:09, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
User:Hike395: Only Template:Ambox supports |small=left, I think. I wanted to get that working for other message boxes while still allowing for |small=yes (which positions it on the right with templates other than ambox) but someone else opposed it because they didn't think my reason for requesting it was sufficient. DesertPipeline (talk) 09:10, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Learn how and when to remove this template message[edit]

This message is quite ugly and the link takes you to a generic page Help:Maintenance template removal rather than any specific advice to fix the actual issue. I question how useful this actually is. For a start I'd like to explore making the link less intrusive, perhaps a question mark icon Breathe-help-browser.svg with a tool-tip which will link to that page. It would be more useful if each maintenance template had its own help page which describes the issue in more detail and explains how to fix it. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:47, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

User:MSGJ: I've done a small test and it seems the {{tooltip}} template can't be used with an image – the tooltip remains as the link (which in this case is Help:Template removal). Is there any other way to accomplish it? DesertPipeline (talk)
@DesertPipeline: From the documentation for {{tooltip}}:

Accessibility and HTML validity concerns

This template is intended only for use with abbreviations (including acronyms and initialisms).

The Web Content Accessibility Guidelines contain guidelines for using the <abbr> element generated by this template; see section H28: Providing definitions for abbreviations by using the abbr and acronym elements.

Furthermore, the HTML specifications (both those of the W3C and WHATWG) strictly define the <abbr> element as reserved for markup of abbreviations. Abusing it for mouse-over tooltips breaks our semantic markup and makes our content invalid HTML (technically, "not well-formed"; it will pass an basic automated validator test because such a tool can't tell that the logical application of the data to the structure isn't correct, only that tags are nested properly, etc.).

{{tooltip}} is Not For™ the kinds of things you're proposing. Wikipedia doesn't have anything that is for that, really, by design. "Tooltips" are an accessibility nightmare, and any sort of "hidden text" (that only reveals itself when action is taken by the reader) is typically discouraged in the article space — collapsibility of navboxes and etc. being the exception. Keeping the article layout "clean" will always be secondary to making information accessible to all readers.
MSGJ's suggestion about linking to an informational page is the only form this could realistically take. (Though personally I'm not sure I'm crazy about mystery "ⓘ" links dotting the article space, either, no matter what they do.) -- FeRDNYC (talk) 08:25, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
Tooltips - whether produced by (mis)use of <abbr>...</abbr> or otherwise - are generated by the browser. Depending upon the browser, the content of the tooltip may be obtained from either a title="..." attribute or an alt="..." attribute. Since these are attributes of tags, it follows that they cannot themselves contain any markup. So, there is no way for tooltips to contain images. I'm sure I have explained this before. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:40, 6 September 2021 (UTC)