Wikipedia talk:Assume good faith
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Request for Comment: make AGF a policy[edit]
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should "assume good faith" be made a policy? ProgrammingGeek talktome 01:32, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
Rationale[edit]
Assumining good faith is a central tenet of the encyclopedia. Without it, none of the project could really function. A view expressed when this page was demoted to a guideline was that editors can't force good faith on people, but we do this every day. We remind editors to AGF when (as the original 2004 revision puts it) the edit war gets hot.
Similar to WP:IAR, this guideline tells editors to AGF within reason. Replacing the picture in Donald Trump's infobox with a picture of Hitler is a funny joke[sarcasm], but because the editor was (according to any reasonable person) acting in bad faith, we don't AGF.
Some editors claim that AGF is fine as a guideline, but by upgrading to a policy it would remove any doubts about its applicability.
To conclude, by making AGF a policy, I believe that it would help editor interactions without causing harm. ProgrammingGeek talktome 01:32, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
Survey[edit]
Support[edit]
- As proposer. ProgrammingGeek talktome 15:21, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
- Certain aspects related to dealing with people who cuss out making accusations when there's barely a significant issue, such as over minor qualms, should be disciplined by an Admin. Those aren't things that involve "mind reading" or other unenforceable things. Such as my case over here [1]. Despite my attempt to cite WP:UNCIVIL and WP:IUC, which recommends requesting the person who swear to strikeout his comment, or to resort to an Admin to take action; nothing was done about it. DA1 (talk) 21:11, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
Oppose[edit]
- AGF is important, but its largely a question of good judgement. Trying to enforce AGF as a policy strikes me as more likely to cause drama then reduce it. Making it a policy would disregard the very good advice from WP:PACT. Monty845 21:35, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
- Unenforceable. For a third person to decide whether someone is acting under AGF requires either reading one's mind or having AGF themselves. Either way this is straight into a battleground. I.e., AGF is valuable basically as a self-discipline, and every person may have a different view on a particular case: e.g., a "drive-by" wiki-peace officer may see is as bad AGF, but a person who sits deep into it may see a slow-churning trolling. Staszek Lem (talk) 00:59, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
- It's nice as a general goal, but terrible as a prescriptive policy. For example, It would make illegal most of the activities of arbcon and many of admins, plus most of those of the noticeboards, which basically involve assessing a situation rather than a requirement to "assume" something which is contrary to the evidence. North8000 (talk) 02:39, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
- The requirement is not to assume. The requirement is that assumptions, when made, give the benefit of the doubt. The presence of evidence makes assumptions (and, therefore, AGF) unnecessary. Essays like WP:PACT underscore the profound misunderstanding of what assuming good faith actually is and isn't. But I agree that its promotion to policy won't happen, and even if it did, WP:CIVIL is one of the five pillars but its sporadic and often misapplied enforcement makes WP look sophomoric enough. The last thing we need is another "principle" that is mostly ignored. Primergrey (talk) 10:05, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
- In Wikipedia, wp:civil and wp:agf are used as weapons of warfare.North8000 (talk) 17:13, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
- Well put, North8000, I agree completely. Compare also the essay Don't link to WP:AGF. Bishonen | talk 20:32, 19 June 2017 (UTC).
- In Wikipedia, wp:civil and wp:agf are used as weapons of warfare.North8000 (talk) 17:13, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
- The requirement is not to assume. The requirement is that assumptions, when made, give the benefit of the doubt. The presence of evidence makes assumptions (and, therefore, AGF) unnecessary. Essays like WP:PACT underscore the profound misunderstanding of what assuming good faith actually is and isn't. But I agree that its promotion to policy won't happen, and even if it did, WP:CIVIL is one of the five pillars but its sporadic and often misapplied enforcement makes WP look sophomoric enough. The last thing we need is another "principle" that is mostly ignored. Primergrey (talk) 10:05, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
- WP:POLICIES says that policies are "standards" while guidelines are "best practices." I'm not sure which category AGF falls into, but I'd say it's a "best practice" rather than a "standard". Bright☀ 12:02, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
- Fine as a guideline, but it would be impossible to work as a policy. It isn't possible to block someone for failing to assume good faith, and breaches of policy should be blockable. Aiken D 12:13, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose I simply can't see how whether or not a editor acted in good faith can be objectively determined. While good in theory, this proposal would be nearly impossible to enforce in practice. --Joshualouie711talk 15:58, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - AGF is not a death pact, it is a matter of common sense that should be employed in general. That's the definition of a guideline, not a policy. Carrite (talk) 18:15, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose as something that would be impossible to enforce as a policy. Its a behavioral guideline that is important in Wikipedia and in real life, but I don't see it at policy level. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:09, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oposse: AGF is a important guideline when interacting with newbies, but it shouldn't be enforced anyway. KGirlTrucker81 huh? what I've been doing 23:29, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - There's already a tendency to use WP:AGF as a righteous sledgehammer in any situation where an editor has what is to them sufficient reason to be suspicious of another editor's status, purpose, or commitment to improving the encyclopedia. Upgrading it to a policy would only increase this tendency, to the general detriment of the project, which benefits when these suspicions are talked out and not suppressed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:36, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose As others have mentioned, making this policy is a bad idea because enforcing it would be impossible. The AN and ANI noticeboards and other areas already get enough charges of "AGF violation". If this was policy, there wouldn't be room for anything else. Also, it is naive at best and enabling at worse to AGF in certain situations. Experienced admins and editors tend to figure out when those situations occur, but encoding the limits of that into policy would be onerous. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:36, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose I don't AGF. I don't think most editors should. Chris Troutman (talk) 21:29, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose An AGF policy would be unenforceable, it is more of a best practice. — Music1201 talk 02:19, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose. I don't see how it could be enforced as a policy; it seems more of something behavioral. —MRD2014 ( T / C ) 18:14, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose. It is an important guideline/practice and usually comes up as part of a pattern of issues with an editor, but it would be hard to objectively enforce as a stand alone policy. Kierzek (talk) 18:28, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose. makes no sense when interacting with "civil" POV pushing for starters. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:59, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- At this point, there isn't much that I can add about how it would be unenforceable. But I'll just put in my personal opinion that it's unfortunate (albeit apparently inevitable) that, short of sort-of enforcing unambiguous NPA violations, there is not a better way for all of us to be civil to one another (and to keep a sense of humor at the same time). --Tryptofish (talk) 00:32, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose Well we should often give people the benefit of the doubt, when someone is obviously here to disrupt the projects we should not assume good faith. Now that WP is "famous" / "popular" a lot of companies are trying to take advantage of our good will and readership. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:45, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose. AGF makes sense until the editor demonstrates that they're not acting in good faith. Elevating AGF to policy will put editors in the Orwellian position of assuming, even more than is currently expected, that obvious bad faith actions are motivated by good faith. Coretheapple (talk) 21:24, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
Neutral[edit]
- Calling out someone for not AGFing can sometimes be construed as a lack of AGF in itself. While making AGF a policy could make typical users take it more seriously, any attempt at enforcement would be bound to create endless drama. Daß Wölf 02:51, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not sure. It is true that links to WP:AGF are often misused: telling an editor who disagrees with you to "assume good faith" gives the impression that you are assuming that they did not assume good faith, which could be construed as a lack of AGF on your part – see WP:AAGF. In most discussions, we didn't need to mention AGF at all. This practice is unfortunately so common on Wikipedia that I understand why others are leery about elevating this to policy. With that being said, it is difficult to understate the importance of assuming good faith as a fundamental principle throughout all of Wikipedia. I also see it as core to the functioning of Wikipedia. It's true that AGF isn't a death pact, and the page expressly clarifies that assuming good faith is not required in the face of clear evidence to the contrary. In cases where there is doubt, I do see AGF as a "standard that all editors should normally follow". Mz7 (talk) 19:30, 20 June 2017 (UTC), modified 21:41, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
Discussion[edit]
ProgrammingGeek, looks like the whole majority opposes the upgrading proposal. May you please withdraw this and close it? Thanks. --George Ho (talk) 08:12, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- Looks like it's probably time for early closure. Mz7 (talk) 06:15, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Deformed[edit]
In the section Accusing others of bad faith, what is the meaning of the last part of the sentence, "Avoid accusing other editors of bad faith without clear evidence in the form of diffs along with the deformed, resultant edit", i.e. the part that refers to "the deformed, resultant edit". The use of the word "deformed" here is especially unclear to me. --Bob K31416 (talk) 19:56, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
- This came from this edit in 2013. I agree that this addition serves no purpose and clearly was not discussed. Reverted. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:07, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Is "adding original research" usually or even frequently a "mistake"?[edit]
I know that the "such as" means we are not saying everyone occasionally adds original research, but wouldn't some other example that is more likely to be a good-faith mistake, like "misreading a source" be better? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:16, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Idk Savageboii4774 (talk) 22:47, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 28 August 2018[edit]
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
2001:56A:72AE:5100:E141:D0CC:8837:B047 (talk) 17:35, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. L293D (☎ • ✎) 18:43, 28 August 2018 (UTC)