Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  (Redirected from Wikipedia talk:BLP)
Jump to navigation Jump to search
BLP issues summary
Discussions
Guidelines (Also see policies.)
Policies (Also see guidelines.)
Projects
Tools
Other

Is BLPCRIME requirement for conviction too restrictive?[edit]

WP:BLPCRIME currently states: For relatively unknown people, editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been secured.

I think this is too restrictive. In the case of the Kidnapping of Jayme Closs, for example, all of the relevant reliable sources have reported that not only has Jake Patterson confessed to killing her parents, kidnapping her, and keeping her captive for 88 days, but Jayme's statement supports the confession, and no one in his family is even contesting these basic facts. What isn't clear is whether these acts are even crimes. After all, he may be innocent due to insanity. But there is no question that he committed these acts. It has been argued [1] (discussion) that it is a violation of BLPCRIME to say that he committed these acts because there is no conviction. But there may not be a conviction for years, or maybe even never. But whether there is not will never change the fact that he killed her parents and kidnapped her. That is true and will always be true, whether they are crimes or not.

So, I suggest a change or clarification to the "unless a conviction has been secured" wording. One way to handle it is to add the following sentence:

  • However, if there is no question per all relevant reliable sources that a person has committed an act, it is acceptable to state that that person has committed that act, even if that act may eventually be proven to have been a crime.

Comments? Suggestions?

--В²C 22:29, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

I would agree that if it is clear the person has confessed to the crime, and no one is showing serious concern on that (eg if people are concerned that a mentally-handicapped person is asserting to have done the crime) I feel that there's little reason to hide the name, even if at the end of the day they end up as proven innocent. --Masem (t) 22:43, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. I suppose I can reword to make it specific to situations where the suspect has confessed, but I thought the broader "there is no question per all relevant reliable sources" covered that case, and any other blatantly obvious ones. --В²C 23:27, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
We need to be careful about the language "there is no question..." as that may lead to pre-judgmental decisions made by the press without the confession. --Masem (t) 00:04, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
Yes, the press being what I was thinking of in my oppose to this below. I also commented on the talk page, but I think B2C is framing this wrong: no one is arguing not to cover the confession. The question is whether or not to say someone did an action. Given all the work that's been done recently on false confessions, stating authoritatively in the voice of the world's 5th largest website that someone did something before the courts have adjudicated that the confession is indeed legally valid and is enough to produce a conviction/allow for a guilty plea, we don't have any business making determinations of fact. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:12, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose if someone has committed a potentially criminal act without a conviction we do not cover it. The proposed wording change would open the door to all manner of loopholes (i.e. "Well, we know they did it even thought charges were never levied, so we're just discussing the factual implications not the criminal implications.")
    In cases like you're describing, it would be fair to note the confession itself, so long as there is substantial coverage in reliable secondary sources, but it would not be acceptable to describe him as a "murderer", as murder is illegal killing and no conviction has occurred. We cannot make that determination, only the courts of the relevant jurisdiction can. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:57, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
    • Okay. Thanks for explaining. —В²C 07:14, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
      • That not the current policy - which stipulates we should "seriously consider" not including - it does not outright ban including - which may be done in some cases (e.g. international fugitives, in many cases, can not be convicted where they fled from aa many juristrictions do not allow trials in absentia - however in some cases the criminal details do get included on the bio).Icewhiz (talk) 12:38, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
        • Actually it says we must seriously consider.--Bbb23 (talk) 12:43, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
          • Indeed. But isn’t merely pointing out that he confessed to the crime “suggest the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime”, even though he hasn’t been convicted? Yet there is no dispute about including that material, presumably because it has been widely reported in RS. Right? Is conviction really the right standard for determining whether to include material that merely suggests someone has been accused? I’ve actually been taken to AN/I for starting this discussion but I think it shows there is room for considerable improvement in the BLPCRIME wording. —В²C 15:07, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment I have mixed feelings. On one hand, B2C makes a good point on the specific example that led directly to this incident. On the other hand, I've seen a proliferation of dubiously notable articles that seem to boil down to "if a crime was done by a person who wasn't white, especially a non-christian, then the crime is notable and we must name the suspect." These sorts of racist constructions have bothered me enough that I've nearly walked away from Wikipedia again over them a few times, especially as they're so hard to get removed. In this circumstance, one of the few tools we have to restrain the worst excesses of this genre has been a rigorous application of WP:BLPCRIME in conjunction with WP:NOTNEWS. In general I would suggest Wikipedia need not speak to every crime to hit the media cycle. Being salacious or shocking is not the same as having lasting significance or encyclopedic relevance. But if we find ourselves with a situation where a crime is considered of lasting significance, having policy in place to restrict how we speak about the accused protects both the civil liberties of the accused and Wikipedia from the appearance of libel. However I would suggest that the solution to the dilemma here would be to first ask the question whether this is in fact a notable crime. And if it is, then perhaps, in this very specific case, where there is an agreed statement of fact (in the form of a confession that does not appear to have been coerced) as to what happened, but not a formal conviction, WP:IAR may be apropos. In short, I don't believe we should weaken the requirements of WP:BLPCRIME because it serves an important function. But we should avoid being so hidebound that we end up with ridiculous situations where we have a notable crime wherein we can't discuss notable details because the person's admission to having-killed hasn't been demonstrated as being criminal yet. Simonm223 (talk) 18:50, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

What to do with the Thot page[edit]

Opinions are needed on the following matter: Talk:Thot#Thot. A permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:02, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

"BLPMINOR"[edit]

Do we have specific guidance on BLP's of minors? I feel like they have to be protected even more assiduously than other BLP's. The word "child" is not mentioned at all on this page.--Jasper Deng (talk) 06:11, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

We discourage listing the minor children of famous people by name unless they are individually notable for more than just being the child of a celebrity. Were I in charge, I would bar all articles about minors unless and until they are notable for more than one related topic, as the danger from causing damage is often greater than the actual encyclopedic value. I would word it, more or less as:
Unless a minor person is notable for more than being the child of a celebrity, or the specific focus of a single event or immediately related events, the danger of causing damage to that person or related persons is a significant problem and such mentions of such a minor by name or action is deprecated.
"Deprecated" is a reasonable term in this type of case. Just because a reliable source mentions names does not mean we need to consider those names to be of encyclopedic value. Collect (talk) 15:49, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
We do have something under WP:BLPNAME related to family members. More explicit advice about minors including a shortcut can't hurt. --Masem (t) 16:21, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
@Collect: Please elaborate a bit what you mean by "immediately related events"? If this were implemented I foresee occasional battles between editors saying certain events are related and others saying they are distinct. I'm not asking for Bright Line, though that would be nice, but please say more? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:54, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
"Immediately related events" are those which are substantially concurrent with the single event. Thus the wrongly accused bomber, who is not otherwise notable" is accused of "making a bomb", "planting the bomb" and telling people there was a bomb -- is a single event, not three separate events, in my opinion. Collect (talk) 14:17, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, that helps though thinking "minor" and "bomber" is kinda horrifying, but I suppose it does happen. What of the minor-bomber who threatens, tries, or succeeds in doing more than one bombing all in the same cause? In the minor's mind these might all be "immediately related events" in their fight. Are they separate events for our purposes? I suppose I should mention that I also have an interest in the example below, about Greta Thunberg. She is notable for one thing (climate activism) but she has been doing a number of different actions in pursuit of her goals. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 14:49, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
If the events are basically a single event, then it is a single event, in my opinion. And I chose an example which would show how strong my own opinion is on this. Note than the EU would actually ban such articles from the start, where a minor is involved. http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-636_en.htm https://www.wired.com/story/europes-new-privacy-law-will-change-the-web-and-more/ Collect (talk) 15:22, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
Climate activist Greta Thunberg, now 16, has a page. There is currently a debate on the associated talk page as what constitutes suitable material and framing in relation to a controversy involving Greta and a Swedish startup. Here is another potential topical example. Lotta Crok, just 9 years old and Amsterdam's junior cycle mayor, might warrent an article in her own right?[1] That is very young to have a public life. I believe Wikipedia needs policy (at least I could not find any) on editing pages of those under 18 years old. Such minors are treated very differently under law, including protection, agency, consent, culpability, liability, and right to vote. Thoughts? RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 08:25, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Zee, Renate van der (12 February 2019). "'We need more people to go by bike': meet Amsterdam's nine-year-old junior cycle mayor". The Guardian. London, United Kingdom. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 2019-02-13.
Has anyone asked the Wikimedia Foundation whether they have already reviewed our BLP policies to verify compliance with legal protections of minors? Such professional analysis can not be done at this level. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:50, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
FYI, this was discussed briefly at Vpump in 2018, in case it helps here is the link NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:07, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
It is worth noting too that children have fundamental protection under European law.[1] And although that law might not extend to Wikipedia EN, it would however apply to the European-language Wikipedias who operate out of Europe. Let me repeat two of those rights (emphasis added):
• (24.1) Children shall have the right to such protection and care as is necessary for their well-being. They may express their views freely. Such views shall be taken into consideration on matters which concern them in accordance with their age and maturity.
• (24.2) In all actions relating to children, whether taken by public authorities or private institutions, the child's best interests must be a primary consideration.
These duties are care are not optional and they are unlikely to be trumped, for instance, by the right to freedom of expression and information. BLPMINOR is a real issue that needs traversing with some urgency. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 15:15, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
Yep Collect (talk) 16:25, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ European Commission (18 December 2000). "Charter of fundamental rights of the European Union — 2000/C 364/01" (PDF). Official Journal of the European Communities (C 364): 1–22. Retrieved 2019-02-13.
Great, but to continue from article talk, in what way do you think existing BLP policy fails to do those things? In my view, if we do a good job applying existing P&G we can look at these standards and say "mission accomplished". Is there a gaping hole in our P&G that we need to plug in order to be in legal compliance? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:29, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
See User:Collect/BLP for the types of positions and rationales some "BLP include everything we can find" editors hold. Collect (talk) 16:25, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
I glanced, it's long. How does it relate here? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:30, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
It relates to deliberate addition of irrelevant material to any BLP for the deliberate sake of harm to the person. And, yes, some editors seem to have that belief. Collect (talk) 18:51, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Apologies in advance if my attempt to restate the issue falls flat or inadvertently seems flip or offensive. If I understand correctly, all BLPs run the risk of being targeted by NOTHERE or BATTLEMINDED editors who try to add harmful stuff to their enemies' BLPs. It sounds like some here believe that although existing BLP rules may provide tools to protect minors from these behaviors, the problem - if I read between the lines correctly - is that these tools are slow and cumbersome, and the potential of harm to a minor requires a speedier solution. Into this void comes an easily measurable proposed new rule as expressed by @Collect: above. For minors notable for just one discrete thing, showing it's just one discrete thing makes for a fast speedy delete process, compared to slogging through walls of text discussing sources (many of which may be of poor quality or poorly interpreted) and then debating how existing rules apply. If this is not a fair or complete rendering of the issue, then I apologize and maybe others can improve upon it. How are we doing so far? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:26, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

I believe all BLPs should be carefully constructed. I point out further that the EU has extremely strong laws governing the rights of children and that Wikipedians who think that the law does not matter are mistaken. My simple proposal is in line with EU law at this point, and, I suggest, in line with common sense as well. Collect (talk) 22:03, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
I want to help here, and I admire your desire to protect minors. So please don't get mad but you didn't really answer my question. First, Thank you for wanting us to follow the law, but that must include not engaging in the illegal practice_of_law. Unless an editor happens to be an attorney, no editor should be citing statutes and analyzing how they work here and then telling other editors what does and does not comply. That sure seems like legal advice. If you think there's a problem of this sort there is a way forward - direct your statutory citations and analysis to the Wikimedia Foundation. Second, I am trying to understand how you perceive our current rules are inadequate. I think the goal is to create a fast and relatively painless way to kill off BLPs of minors whose notability is questionably associated with just one thing. True or False? You can keep telling me what you want to do but that doesn't really explain why I should not dismiss it as WP:CREEP. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:37, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
I am not a lawyer, correct. I did have a contract with a major ISP which required me to know and enforce copyright law and COPPA etc. regarding online services. And I assure you that being aware of copyright law and laws regarding minors etc. is not "practicing law without a license". So much for using CREEP. Note that my position on copyright was not the same as Jimbo's regarding the famed "monkey selfie" and guess whose opinion was correct according to the legal system. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/federal-appeals-court-rejects-monkey-selfie-suit-n868501 "The decision by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco upheld a lower-court ruling in favor of David Slater, the photographer whose camera was used to take the photos." Collect (talk) 15:45, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
I'm not a laywer either, but like you for a long time I made my living using special legal knowledge. In my case I am one of three living people I'd consider experts in an arcane area of property law. I used this knowledge to buy out people's positions in civil litigation in disputes about money and property. Since I did all my own legal work, I also had to deal with frequent complaints that I as doing the unauthorized practice of law, so I know something of that also. In short, its one thing for me to use my knowledge to represent myself in court (that's OK). It's something entirely different to tell other people - Wikipedia editors for example - how such laws apply to their own procedures and decision making. I cheer for your obvious good intention to protect minors, and it's obvious your resume gives you clout for raising concerns with the Wikimedia Foundation. This is not that venue, and if you want to actually make progress in establishing consensus here, please harken to WP:Arguments to avoid in discussions#Personal knowledge. Shoot the statutory analysis off to the real attorneys at the Wikimedia Foundation, please. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:57, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Policies re: children[edit]

We have WP:BLP and its sections WP:BLPPRIVACY and WP:BLPNAME, and the essay WP:MINORS and its section WP:NONAME. Is there anything else? Collect wrote above We discourage listing the minor children of famous people by name unless they are individually notable for more than just being the child of a celebrity, but there was recently a discussion about that on Fradio71's talk page in which some editors expressed the opposite view. At Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes, there used to be links to their kid's birth certificate (used to establish his name as Tom and not Thomas and her name as Katie and not Katherine). In my view, the existing policy isn't clear enough about the issues of children's right to privacy when they are not the subject of an article (e.g., naming the minor children of celebrities), as well as what (if any) "special" procedures should be used for minors who are the subject of an article (BLP minors). I'd support adding clarity. Levivich 00:52, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

I would also support adding clarity but only after the problems are articulated. @Levivich if you believe the essays you mention contain vital "anything", well, they're essays. If we're relying on them to plug the gaps in policy in any way, then those aspects of the essays should be merged to the policy page. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 03:04, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
NewsAndEventsGuy, I've noticed some essays seem to carry more weight than pillars. But yes, I think (i) WP:NONAME (essay) should be stated in some form in WP:BLPNAME (policy), and (ii) WP:BLP should at least have some language about being "extra careful" in BLPs of minors (and perhaps also more specific guidance than that, but if so, I'm not sure what exactly). Levivich 03:30, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
(1) I suggest starting a new section (or maybe a subsub section in this thread) to discuss elevating NONAME to policy. (2) Editors who would care about "extra care" already care and don't need it. Editors who create these sorts of problems excel at wikilawyering and will readily see "extra care" as being 'way too subjective to be actionable. Given this, just adding "extra care" would be WP:CREEP, unless the phrase were used to introduce additional text that provides some actionable guidance. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 08:56, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Hence my proposal above

Unless a minor person is notable for more than being the child of a celebrity, or the specific focus of a single event or immediately related events, the danger of causing damage to that person or related persons is a significant problem and such mentions of such a minor by name or action is deprecated.

Which I believe should be used as a basis for policy statements regarding all minors. Collect (talk) 15:49, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Since any extra threshold to show notability of a minor is going to be subjective, why not just be really subjective and say "No BLPs about minors"? Once they reach the age of 18, then the usual rules apply. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:57, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
"No BLPs about minors" would result in an incomplete encyclopedia. There are notable minors, like Olympic gold medalists. Also, they're already famous, so we're not really causing any damage by having a BLP, as long as the BLP is properly written and sourced. Levivich 02:48, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
On the proposal language: what is the purpose/intent of the "danger of causing damage to that person or related persons is a significant problem" clause? It seems too vague/general to explain why minors specifically shouldn't be named as opposed to other people. (I'd argue that any "danger" of "damage" to a person is a "significant problem".) What is a "mention of a minor by ... action"? Levivich 02:52, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Tools and templates[edit]

To help inform this discussion, I'm curious if the code already has tools for tagging or otherwise identifying and tracking BLPs of minors? Anyone? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:05, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

One clunky way I can think of is to look at the intersection of Category:Living people and the ____ births categories for the last 18 years, e.g. living people born in 2010. Levivich 02:38, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Prelim Proposal How about asking for the development of a BLP template - either a standalone or an optional parameter of an existing one - that can flag a BLP as being that belonging to a minor? With that tracking and monitoring tool in place, we will be in a position to do a much better job monitoring such BLPs and talking about the nature of the problems we wish to address via policy and guidelines. As a matter of functionality, the servers could automatically "graduate" the template to that of an adult just on the basis of birthday/age, somewhat similar to the "Update" parameter of the "As of" template. The idea is too rough for an RFC but if there is intereset here, maybe ya'll could help smooth off the rough edges before we reformulate it as a "real" proposal? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:53, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

An accusation[edit]

Is there a general principle that can be applied to the following hypothetical case? (I can't believe this hasn't arisen before, by the way.)

  • A well-known person (i.e. they already have a Wikipedia article) is accused by a non-well-known person.
  • Of a alleged crime, reported in several reliable secondary sources
  • The description of the alleged crime is significant enough to merit criminal and civil actions against the accused.
  • The accused denies the accusation.
  • The accuser in several reliable secondary sources declares not to seek a criminal or civil case against the accused, while maintaining the accusation. (And such action is possible, i.e. there's no statute of limitations, diplomatic immunity, etc. applicable)
  • The accused declares not to a seek a libel/slander action against the accuser.

Is the answer:

  • Included because it's part of the public record.
  • Excluded because it's impossible for Wikipedia editors to determine the truth or falsity of the accusation and therefore not fair to the accused to include it.
  • It depends. Please explain your include/exclude criteria. patsw (talk) 14:43, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Answering my own question: It's included. See WP:PUBLICFIGURE for the rationale. patsw (talk) 19:34, 28 January 2019 (UTC)


Excluded as the "Accuser" by not seeking any timely legal action is functioning as his/her own witness yet unwilling to testify under oath as to the accusation. That any public figure has to prove actual malice as well as falsity of such "accusations", the fact that they do not sue the accuser proves nothing at all. F'rinstance … person A (who is a total unknown) accuses person B (subject of the BLP) of forcing person A to use heroin at a party, but refuses to actually file police reports under oath. Person B cannot rationally file a defamation case in the US. The "reliable secondary sources" are not stating the accusation is anything more than such, that is, they are not suggesting that it is fact, and the accuser by making no attempt to have a finding of fact be made by competent authorities or competent courts is furnishing no basis for any reliable source to make the accusation into a statement of fact. For examples of the problem look at User:Collect/BLP where an editor appears to make the argument being presented - that a public person by not suing the allegator is admitting the claim to be fact.
It's a real exposé, in the classic sense. If the report were bogus, X would have sued TMZ loooong ago. Excluding it is simply censorship, plain and simple. So he's allowed to have a family and we are not allowed to add that fact to the encyclopedia because he would prefer people not to know about it? Is that your position?
I consider this to be quite directly related to the hypothetical case in the question. Collect (talk) 22:53, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
I think the language of WP:PUBLICFIGURE is plain and requires the inclusion of the accusation: "simply document what these sources say". Are you (or another editor) advocating a change in its wording? patsw (talk) 12:26, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
No. Just pointing out what "editor" means -- we choose what goes into articles, and give due weight while following WP:NPOV which is "non-negotiable". Adding charges which the accuser refuses to present to any fact-finder of any sort is an easy case - if the accuser refuses to let anyone actually examine the charges, and the charges are harmful to the subject, we can, and generally do refuse to give a Wikipedia imprimatur to those unexamined charges. Collect (talk) 15:13, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
It depends My bar for any case like this if it whole state of accusations (without any legal action taken by any party or enforcement agency) is to determine the effect it has on the accused's career or life. Eg take someone like Kevin Spacey where as soon as the first allegations landed, he was kicked off shows, and parts of a movie just about to be released had to be reshot with a new actor. That makes the allegations something to be included. If sources report the allegations but no one acts on them and nothing happens to the person accused at all besides a bit of media attention, we should not include that. And of course, its always best to look though the lens of RECENTISM here - we are not required to immediately include any accusation, and sometimes waiting 3-6-12 months to see how it all filters out will give the right answer to if it should be included or not. --Masem (t) 15:23, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
I will definitely add to what Blueboar added below: the sources are important, particularly for accusations. It's one thing if NYTimes, BBC, etc. are all repeating it, but if its TMZ, entertainment magazines, etc.. I'd then be asking where the original source of information was from and if it has been corroborated. --Masem (t) 17:12, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
  • It depends - Totally agree with Masem. A lot also depends on which sources are covering it: Scandal rags / tabloids / click bate gossip sites? probably not something we should bother with... high end news outlets? probably something we should cover as well. Blueboar (talk) 16:55, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

I think all the it depends answers need to be read as included - as I mentioned in my hypothetical, assume WP:RS is satisfied. patsw (talk) 01:29, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Nope "It depends" means that a blanket "included" is not the !vote. And the requirement that the accusation is "corroborated" is a mile away from "include." The "Spacey example" is inapt as it was his "removal" which was readily corroborated, not the accusations per se. Collect (talk) 14:41, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
On corroborated, to me, I'd use what was shown for Neil deGrasse Tyson: the original accusations were made by a weak RS, but the WaPost made their own inquires on the charged by those accusing Tyson and confirmed that the accusations being made were what the weak RS reported, "corroborating" that. By no means does that corroborate that the events stated in the accusations actually happened, only that a good RS believed there's something valid to report the accusations. Hence why the sourcing question is extremely important. But even then, as I suggest, just because the accusations were corroborated in this fashion doesn't make it worthy to include - the effect on a person's life or career needs to be significant then. --Masem (t) 14:56, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
  • There is an unambiguous right answer to this question, and patsw has already hit upon it. The policy clearly states: "If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." I'm more bemused by the spectacle of established editors giving obviously wrong answers here, which are either ignorant of policy or actively contradict it. You guys don't get to make up your own criteria when policy is crystal-clear. If you're going to be active on the noticeboards, then you need to be aware of what policy actually says, and willing to go along with it. MastCell Talk 17:30, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
    • What is "noteworthy, relevant, and well documented" defined as? For example, I would argue my "impact on career" is a measure of relevancy- if there's no impact, then its not relevant to mention, particularly in the long-term. "Noteworthy" implies enduring coverage (akin to notability) , so an accusation that has the media's attention for all of a day is not noteworthy even if its well documented. It's not a black and white definition. --Masem (t) 17:42, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
      • I would suggest the notability would depend too much on what makes it relevant. I tend to lean away from Wikipedia being a platform to report on peoples supposed misdeeds, but in the case of, for instance Harvey Weinstein the accusations against him led to the collapse of his career and the Me Too movement. Likewise, the career trajectory of Louis CK was significantly impacted by the accusations against him and is relevant, same with Asia Argento. On the other hand we can see how this sort of latitude is mis-applied with much of the nonsense that went on at Julia Salazar - which included far too much shitty gossip BS at one point in time. So I wouldn't want to establish a "general standard" without knowing the specific circumstances. Simonm223 (talk) 18:12, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

At first, I didn't think of the this case from 2011, which in its time generated a lot of WP:BLP issues: New York v. Strauss-Kahn for a case where the media from gossip source to our reliable sources were keeping the story in flux and keeping the Wiki editors constantly busy. I remember this because I took a photo of the classic "media circus" which appears in the article. The story ended with a dismissal of all charges. To Simonm223, we already have established a policy, WP:PUBLICFIGURE, to cover accusations. patsw (talk) 00:11, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

BLPPRIVACY / NPF[edit]

Do we have guidance on whether mention of first marriages/divorces is restricted by, say, BLPPRIVACY or NPF? Saw one removed by an IP, want to verify policy before I add back (the edit also made other changes that definitely need correcting, I'll take care of those). In this instance, so far I've found the subject mention the marriage in the secondary source cited, several interviews, and two published essays. But, it's true that it's not in most of the secondary sources on the subject and I'm mindful of the overarching principle that Wikipedia is in the business of recording well-known information, not making it so. (On the other hand, the IP did not remove other details cited to the same secondary source, like who the subject is dating now, which I tend to think would also need to be removed if we're going to be conservative with this? Previously I removed the current relationship when it was added without a source, but since it was in this profile published six months ago, it seemed ok.) Thanks, all, for any input. Innisfree987 (talk) 20:37, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

My opinion is that minimal personal information is best unless it is essential for the narrative of the BLP. Xxanthippe (talk) 21:23, 10 February 2019 (UTC).
Thank Xxanthippe, that's well put. The one secondary source does interpret the elements of notability (i.e. notable writing) in terms of this particular personal information but given it's only one source, I think it's probably best to remove until/if ever it's more widely discussed. I don't like the idea that we might end up seeing that in other secondary sources only because the WP promoted the connection. I'll go ahead and revert for now to the version prior to the incorporation of that source. Innisfree987 (talk) 20:18, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2019 February 16#File:Robert Goldston01.jpg[edit]

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2019 February 16#File:Robert Goldston01.jpg. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:34, 16 February 2019 (UTC)