Wikipedia talk:Bots/Requests for approval

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Request for re-examination Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Theo's Little Bot, Task 1[edit]

How does one judge the "low resolution" requirement of our Wikipedia:Non-free content policy? Here are some things I consider - the size of the source image, the detail in the source image, the quality of the scan and encoding. What things does Theo's Little Bot consider? Only whether it's greater than 0.1 megapixels, an arbitrary number suggested by Wikipedia:Non-free_content#Image_resolution. And if it is greater, and it's in Category:Wikipedia non-free file size reduction requests, the answer is to reduce it to 0.1 megapixels regardless of its content. This degradation in quality is a one way process, as previous versions are deleted, users cannot revert, information is lost.

A look through the bot's uploads shows examples such as -

What does Template:Non-free reduce mean? It used to mean the current file is too large. Now it means, the current file needs to be 0.1 megapixels. For many editors, it still means the former. Editors will not consider whether the file should be 0.1 megapixels, only that it is too large - this is the intuitive expectation, regardless of bot implementation. Right now, there is no way to tag images for reduction and for that resulting image to be larger than 0.1 megapixels. Even when an image is unambiguously high definition, I'm told File:Dear Esther Screenshot Large.jpg was at 1080p, tagging it would be a mistake - because you're left with a resulting file so small as to fail its rationale.

I propose we stop TLB's task 1 from running, and only restart it when we have a better process and implementation in place to stop its pointless overuse and resulting errors shown above. - hahnchen 21:48, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

The bot is working fine, but editors need to recognize the reduce tag should only be for images far outside the range. That's a behavior problem, not a bot problem. --MASEM (t) 22:45, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
Read second to last paragraph. Images can be correctly tagged, and still have negative results. You could place an onus on the revision-deleting administrator to review the image, but that is not done - of the files I checked, not once was a downscale reverted. It's clear that either process is ignored, or has never been put in place. - hahnchen 23:02, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
If the rationale has no explaination of why a higher-than-normal resolution image is provided (and in the range of ~0.2 MP or higher), it is completely appropriate to tag that with a non-free reduce template and let the bot handle it. It is up to the image uploader or those using the image to make sure that if a larger image is needed, to justify it in the rationale. No rationale for the larger image, then it needs to be resized. --MASEM (t) 23:36, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
The tag is correct, it was a file that needed reduction. Needing reduction and "needing reduction to 0.1 megapixels" are different things. - hahnchen 23:41, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
The rationale does not give any reason why the image needs to be larger than 0.1MP, so someone reviewing images and seeing a full 1080p image has no reason to question the need to reduce. --MASEM (t) 00:24, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Needing reduction and "needing reduction to 0.1 megapixels" are different things. Admins are not reviewing the resized images. Hence the example above of the reduction of File:Slacker-logo-black-official-2015.png which in actuality is a free-use file. The resized File:Dear Esther Screenshot Large.jpg is unsuited to show the game's graphics as specified by the rationale and article image caption. Those are absolutely the reasons why the file has to be larger than 0.1MP, rationales have never explicitly stated why images are larger than the 0.1MP suggestion. File:Warlugulong - Zoom.png is used in featured article Warlugulong, it is nearer 0.2MP, the rationale is suitable and justifies the actual size of the upload, not an imaginary number. I considered all the questions I posed right at the top of this section when I uploaded the image, but I have no confidence that the tagger, bot, or admin would do the same. - hahnchen 11:49, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
The Esther image has a poor rationale to justify "the graphics to the game are important", particularly when the image started at 1080p resolution. ("To show off the beautiful graphics" is not a proper rational - in contrast to the Warlungulong image where the rational explains that the detail is discussed by sources in the article.) You're blaming the bot for something it is only told to do by editors well aware of NFC policy's minimal use requirement. --MASEM (t) 15:55, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Are you confident that if File:Warlugulong - Zoom.png is tagged, it will get reverted? Do you believe had I not stepped in, that File:Starcommand2013battle.jpg would still be saved as a useful image? That too was reduced to 0.1MP. If not, we do not have a suitable process in place for the operation of this bot, and we should stop this task until we do. - hahnchen 16:43, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

@MBisanz: -- Magioladitis (talk) 22:50, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

It might be worth giving the template a size parameter or two. {{Non-free reduce|size=.1M}} {{Non-free reduce|size=100K}} {{Non-free reduce|width=256}} etc...

Also maybe it would make sense for the bot to skip items which would be reduced by less than 50%. All the best: Rich Farmbrough18:26, 17 February 2015 (UTC).

Note that the erroneously tagged as non-free file File:All Men Are Mortal, 1946 French edition.jpg has been reduced and the previous versions have been deleted. Admins do not review the downsized files, and how can they, given the amount of pointless reduces that are forced through the system? - hahnchen 20:31, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Again, the bot cannot understand images outside of their digital nature. It can't figure out free vs non-free, and this looks like a case that the uploader opted to select non-free as unsure of the best solution. Thus, the person that put the tag on that without questioning if it should be free is the behavior to discourage, not the bot. --MASEM (t) 20:36, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Masem, everyone reading this page already knows how the bot works. We can use the guillotine to trim hair too, but you can't defend accidental decapitations with "all a guillotine does is cut stuff". In this case, the bot and the process surrounding it compounded an error. There is no oversight at any point, the tagger, bot and admin do not review the image or its use. Until we have that process in place, we should not be operating the bot. - hahnchen 11:04, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

  • Proposal - The bot should resize images to 0.15 megapixels and ignore smaller images.
    • Rich suggests ignoring images larger than 0.2MP[1]. Masem suggests that the tag should only be used for images "far outside the range"[2]. Instead of reducing images to 0.1MP and ignoring close cases, it should just reduce to 0.15MP. Bots cannot make any of the value judgements that editors can. The bot should be conservative, if the image needs resizing below 0.15MP, then that should be a manual process, where the right questions can be asked. The bot should place images below 0.15MP into Category:Wikipedia non-free file size reduction requests for manual processing and notify the tagger. I'd be fine with 0.2MP too, or reducing to 0.15MP only those files which are larger than 0.2MP. - hahnchen 11:04, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Proposal - Uploaders must be notified when Template:Non-free reduce is tagged to their image.
    • While savvy users may watchlist their images like User:Darkwarriorblake at File:Dredd2012Poster.jpg, many reductions take place with editors oblivious until it's too late. This could be automated, or you could place the onus onto the taggers, I would prefer the former. - hahnchen 11:04, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Proposal - Once tagged, the bot does not reduce images for a week.
    • This gives time for manual reduction or tag removal by the uploader. - hahnchen 11:04, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Proposal - Bots (and taggers) should ignore previously reduced files.
    • File:Thor-272.jpg was a completely ridiculous reduction where Theo bot fights Dash bot. The Dashbot reduced version was 325*502, which is 0.16MP. (I think this is because Dashbot looked at image width as well, conservatively allowing for larger thumbnail preferences) The original was clearly low resolution, any further reduction is needless. Can the bot parse file history comments? If so, if the previous version was already marked reduced, it should place the file into Category:Wikipedia non-free file size reduction requests for manual processing and notify the tagger. - hahnchen 11:04, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Proposal - Admins to actually review the resized files.
    • This should be happening already. The proposals above, if implemented, should result in a reduction of the pointless resizes and make reviewing files more manageable. - hahnchen 11:04, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Bot_policy#Appeals_and_reexamination_of_approvals, this is where bots are re-assessed. Yet neither the bot author or any of the bot approvals group have made any comment. Aside from the discussion above, there's also this discussion at the Village Pump. The general consensus is that the current implementation is flawed, and there are multiple easy to implement fixes. I don't want to waste my time with shit such as this that the bot enables. - hahnchen 01:45, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

SamoaBot 2[edit]

While I agree a BRFA might be overkill for ~30 edits, and I'm glad the typos were fixed, I'm a bit disappointed for the outcome of the request. Magioladitis mentioned WP:SPELLBOT apparently ignoring that I explicitly stated the 'bot' would have been manually operated. Denying a BRFA within few minutes from the first reply, when the task has actually been carried out by someone else, is not a great display of sensitivity. --Ricordisamoa 19:27, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

I read the BRFA, and the responses looked reasonable to me. There was no indication in the request that the bot would be able to avoid false fixes of text like "the composer's name is sometimes misspelled as 'Giuseppi Verdi'." There was also no indication of which namespaces the bot would operate in; archived pages may have been undesirable to edit with this bot. By the time all of that would have been worked out, the fixes could already have been done manually. And they were.
At this point, it's water under the bridge. If you had proposed 3,000 edits instead of 30, I would have more sympathy toward your disappointment. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:56, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
"Manual" means I would have checked every typo, including the title of the page it occurred in and the surrounding context. And of course I would not have edited discussion pages. Please note that I'm not challenging the closure in itself. It's a matter of tact; it's about building a friendly space for potential bot operators: I'm afraid the English Wikipedia fails in regard to this. --Ricordisamoa 10:53, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Ricordisamoa you can always request an alternative account per WP:VALIDALT. We do not give out bot flags for single-use tasks that involve such a small numbers of edits and should only be done manually. There are many editors performing spell-checking in Wikipedia from their normal accounts. You are welcome to help on that. -- Magioladitis (talk) 11:20, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Magioladitis had you written this explanation straight in the BRFA, it would have been perfect ;-) --Ricordisamoa 13:28, 8 May 2015 (UTC)