Wikipedia talk:Did you know

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"Did you know...?" template
Discussion WT:DYK
Rules WP:DYK
Supplementary rules WP:DYKSG
Nominations T:TDYK
Reviewing guide WP:DYKR
Preps & Queues T:DYK/Q
Currently on Main Page
Main Page errors WP:ERRORS
Removed hooks WP:DYKREMOVED
Archive of DYKs WP:DYKA
Stats WP:DYKSTATS



This is where the Did you know section on the main page, its policies and the featured items can be discussed. Proposals for changing how Did You Know works were being discussed at Wikipedia:Did you know/2011 reform proposals.

LavaBaron's editing restrictions[edit]

Per this AN thread, LavaBaron is given editing restrictions on DYK. Any hook nominated or reviewed by LavaBaron must be reviewed by a second editor before it may be promoted to the main page. The restrictions are reproduced below as follows:

  1. A DYK article nomination or hook submitted by LavaBaron must be reviewed and accepted by 2 other editors before it may be promoted.
  2. Any DYK nomination reviewed by LavaBaron must also be reviewed and accepted by 1 other editor before it may be promoted.
  3. Any additional reviews by other editors, which are mandated by this restriction, shall count towards the QPQ of that editor.
  4. (To balance the maths) For each article submitted by LavaBaron to DYK, 2 QPQ reviews by LavaBaron are required, at least 1 of which shall be a nomination that had not yet been accepted by another editor.
  5. These restrictions shall initially last for a period of 3 months. At the end of the period, this restriction shall be reviewed.

The enforcement of these rules should be the responsibility of all editors who promote DYK hooks. Any editor may undo the promotion of any hook to a prep area or a queue area (for admins) whose promotion was made in contravention to these restrictions, assuming good faith and citing this AN restriction. --Deryck C. 13:45, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Is this addition to the header section of T:TDYK really necessary? It feels to me like a scarlet letter. LavaBaron has agreed on his or her user talk page to note that double reviews are needed in his nominations and reviews, which is where the reminder is needed, so is a header notice necessary and appropriate? EdChem (talk) 16:14, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree that it is unnecessary given Lavabaron's commitment to add a note to his contributions, so have reverted. Gatoclass (talk) 16:22, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
Gatoclass - thanks, but I don't have an issue with it. It may be better for everyone involved if it was still in place. I'll defer to your judgment, though. LavaBaron (talk) 16:32, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, EdChem, I very much appreciate your comment. However, by way of explanation, I don't have any issue with the header, personally. This restriction will eventually slip off other editors radars and I don't want to risk getting blocked if another editor doesn't notice my own warning notes and accidentally promotes anyway. In the grand scheme of things, I'm fine with being publicly exhibited in the stockade for awhile if the alternative is the hangman. I'm probably wrapping things up here anyway, so it's not really a big deal. LavaBaron (talk) 16:26, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
You are not going to get blocked for the actions of another editor! However, since you've made the commitment to remind other editors of your restrictions in your contributions to T:TDYK, you will need to stick to it as failing to do so might attract unwanted attention. Gatoclass (talk) 16:31, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
Given there are some admins whose behaviour appears to be to act on DYK contributors given the slightest opportunity, I think LavaBaron is wise to include reminders on his nominations and reviews. Just because something is objectively unreasonable doesn't mean it won't happen, unfortunately. EdChem (talk) 16:35, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, however, I was just blocked on accident the other day - which I've just learned can't be WP:REVDEL from my log and will be part of my permanent record as long as my account exists - so I would like to be extra careful in any edit I make, or any edit anyone else makes that may in some way reference me by name. (I apologize, in advance, for publicly disagreeing and if the preceding comment seemed insolent; it was not my intent to be but rather to observe a personal experience as a possible reason for maintaining the header alert so that as many people as possible know that my DYKs require extra scrutiny. I appreciate all the work you do for WP as an admin and will defer, without further debate or objection, to you judgment on this question.) LavaBaron (talk) 16:44, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

EdChem you claim Given there are some admins whose behaviour appears to be to act on DYK contributors given the slightest opportunity..., could you provide an explanation for this including diffs please? As far as I could tell, most people who are pulling hooks are doing it based on the fact that they are erroneous, or ill-sourced or malignant. Of course, you could correct me if I'm wrong. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:54, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: I expressed my opinion. I am in favour of higher quality and minimising inaccuracies in articles on WP. I am not, however, comfortable with the discussions which come across as disdainful of the contributors and contributions to DYK. Examples, quotations all being from you, FYI:
  • "Admins who deal with errors here are under no obligation to do anything" is the exact attitude of image patrollers who tag and notify when fixing the problem was as easy or easier, and ignoring the disruption caused. It comes with an apparent belief of superiority which is really irritating. That you can just pull a hook rather than fix does not mean that that course of action is appropriate or wise. Also, you signed as an admin who "participate at DYK but rarely move prep sets to queues and updating main page" but reserve the right to disregard the structures of DYK ("DYK rules are non-binding on admins", "I'm not arguing, I'm stating fact. Admins are not under any obligation to comply with the arcane and multifarious "rules" of DYK") - hardly helpful. Maybe things wouldn't be so oppositional if hooks were corrected rather than pulled (by all means discuss here or with the nominator / reviewers afterwards) or returned once corrected. You could build some goodwill by protecting the main page and advancing the goals of DYK within that broader goal, rather than always coming across as critical. Admins are supposed to be editors with extra buttons not rulers, and while I have no doubt you can make a case for being uninvolved, from my perspective you come with a pre-existing opinion and bias against DYK - you come across as disdainful ("DYK are no longer interested in interesting hooks it would appear, they are just too obsessed with self-preservation").
  • "... not worth the grief and the disruption to the arcane processes and delicate individuals here" - good to see your healthy respect for DYK processes and contributors here.
  • "... the review process is up shit creek" - this is an over-broad generalisation which does not acknowledge or recognise the good work being done by many reviewers. Take me, for example... I've never had a hook pulled from the main page (nor do I recall one from the queue) and I don't recall one of my reviews being subsequently faulted. I've noted problems with paraphrasing and sourcing and I believe I am thorough (examples: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 - you can look at all my DYKs if you like). In some cases, I have posted after a tick is given to address a problematic review. Is my work "up shit creek" too? Or are there people here who could use some acknowledgement and who can serve as examples for new reviewers to follow? The QPQ system has its flaws and I favour removing QPQ credits from poor reviews so that another review is needed for their nomination to proceed, but the flaws don't make DYK worthless. There is some high quality work done here, both editing and reviewing, and that seems to go unnoticed. For example, I am proud of this case where what was brought to DYK was inaccurate and low quality and what went on to the main page was much higher quality (IMO).
  • "The answer: slow the rate down" - you said this in the context of the JetBlue hook which you described as "dreadful and promotional" (an accurate assessment, IMO). You have posted repeatedly about section length and rate and built no consensus for change. I suggest that is, in part, because your approach leads to a high degree of defensiveness. I can't see why 8 hooks rather than 7 is a problem for DYK, and if that is better for balancing the main page then it is something that should be collegially achievable. Isn't it better for WP and our readers if we can work together?
All of the above are from the last two weeks or so. In that time we've also had a proposed topic ban at AN, and you are not alone in having an approach which I see as counter-productive. DYK has problems with reviewing, there is no doubt, and at times hooks need to be pulled from the queue and (sadly) sometimes from the main page - sadly because they shouldn't get that far - but what feels like a "gotcha" approach even in cases where a small edit would address the issue is IMO leading editors to feel threatened and attacked when what is needed is for them (and us) to understand how things get missed and to learn from mistakes. EdChem (talk) 03:55, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
TLDR: DYK regulars don't like the fact they're being scrutinised and that they're being unveiled as a reasonably owny bunch who are content to peddle low quality items and errors to the main page. If you think the admin tools have been abused by me or anyone else in pulling detritus from the main page, then do something about it. As for "healthy respect for DYK processes and contributors here", damned straight. The process consistently fails, and the individuals involved put up the shutters, heads into the sand and pretend everything's okay once these awkward people pointing out all these issues will go away. Well newsflash, we're not going away. And low quality or erroneous hooks will continue to be removed and those responsible for continually supporting them will be called out. Sorry if you misinterpreted that. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:32, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Blunt version: Your strategy is frustrating your aim. Your description of MY work as "low quality" and me as being "content to peddle low quality items and errors to the main page" as a consequence of my reviewing work is rejected as unsupported by evidence and obnoxious. Your attitude and behaviour convey disdain for DYK which renders your objectivity questionable. Newsflash, DYK isn't going away. You could try working with us to address problems... or is that too difficult? Sorry if this is too sensible for you. EdChem (talk) 08:01, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
I work every day to improve every DYK that goes through the system. I don't have time to double check every hook but have pulled or suggested several be pulled en route to the main page. I have made multiple suggestions to improve things and yet DYK and its guardians see themselves as impervious and near-perfect, and criticism of any type is simply rejected. There's too much ownership and mollycoddling of editors in this part of the main page, it's unhealthy and contrary to the principles of Wikipedia. There's not enough responsibility taken for continuous issues, this thread is the first of its kind and is probably about five years too late coming. Sorry if that's too much truth for you. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:18, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Well, I made one suggestion for improving DYK, and you shot it down, in a fit of ownership, perhaps. Lay out your proposal(s), perhaps at VPP, if you don't like this page, and live with the fact that others have different opinions and views than you. Other people are not going away, either, and as you appear to think you are besieged, there must be more of them. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:03, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
It takes more than one opposition to "shoot down" a reasonable proposal. And I'm here for the longhaul, whether the masses like it or not, so wise up. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:11, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Actually it got quite a bit of reasonable support, including from Fram. But your comment shows either a lack of the wisdom of self-awareness, or just plain hypocrisy, you act as if everyone who does not agree with you is suddenly a borg, when what's true is they just individually disagree with you and you can't handle it. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:32, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Off topic-discussion
Then I wasn't the only to object by a long chalk. I can handle all of this, unlike the whinging DYK owners. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:49, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Your whingeing ('to complain persistently in a peevish way') shows otherwise. Sure, the borg is the boogeyman. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:55, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Not at all, I've offered several ways the process can improve, and indeed I actively engage in improving each and every DYK myself, including preventing copyvios being posted, including removing non-fair use images, including actually reading beyond the hook, checking for grammar and other minor improvements. I have no idea what you're talking about, but that doesn't surprise me. Now either focus on the discussion at hand, or chase me to my talk page to continue in your lame attempt at berating me, but either way, stop wasting time here. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:06, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Of course, you argue you don't know what people are talking about and then continue with extended arguments that are oddly excited and bizarrely preachy, wise up. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:15, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
I asked you nicely to stop wasting time here. Please continue the attempt to berate me elsewhere. Otherwise stick to the program, improving DYK. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:31, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm not wasting, anytime. Your way of asking things is decidedly not nice, don't fool yourself. Regardless, this is about improving DYK, as we are discussing the matter of proposing, discussing, and making changes in DYK. As your complaints persist about a borg in charge, here, you've been pointed to how to handle that complaint appropriately. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:41, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
I've really got no idea what you are continually going on about. I have suggested solutions and actively work on problematic issues here. You? Nothing but odd and meaningless analogies. Try to be part of the solution, and stop eating time here failing in beating me up for telling the truth. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:36, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Could someone uninvolved hat this worthless diatribe? We can return to trying to fix the many problems, rather than bizarre Star Trek comparisons. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:39, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

It just cannot be true that you don't understand you whine and complain the "DYK guardianship" or "regulars" "ownership" obstruct your proposals for reform. Just stop and handle it the appropriate way. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:14, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Alan, you've missed the point entirely. Unlike you I make positive contributions to every single DYK that passes to the main page, sometimes I have to stop them because they're junk for one reason or another. Sometimes other diligent editors have to pull them because they're junk. Those of us concerned with quality will take whatever steps necessary. Now, I urge you, please stop beating yourself up and saying the same meaningless things over and over again, and let some capable people try to handle the problem, and that includes stopping this meaningless guff. Now, over to you for the final word (and then a (ce)) and we're done. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:54, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
  • OK, here's my take, speaking as an on-again, off-again DYK participant: First, EdChem is right that there is a sense of a "gotcha" approach that does discourage people from reviewing and promoting DYK hooks. We fear being slamblasted for a good faith error and fear reprisals. On the other hand, if The Rambling Man spots a problem and removes a hook, groovy, so long as I'm not slamblasted for a good-faith error, I can live with that, he does a good job of spotting problems others miss and so long as he wants to do that job, I'm good with it. Similarly, when Moonriddengirl sends an approved hook bac for another round, she does what she does best. At the end of the day, I am fine if I make a mistake and others have to fix it, as long as it is acknowledged that I did the best I could at the time and intended to do a good job -- we all are human. But finally, having created about 200+ articles for WP, and about 50 of them have been DYK, I do hope that everyone here who criticizes content also creates it from time to time and so understands the challenges we face. (I know that TRM does...which is one reason why I'm not too upset if he has a high standard; I've done GAN reviews for his articles, and he DOES create content) Montanabw(talk) 01:50, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
Indeed. Obviously, as my sometimes contributions on this page attest, there is no objection to re-running a review, where others take a look and find an issue that needs more discussion or reversal. Such additional review rarely need to be an accusation (or a gotcha) and in extreme cases where it does need to be an accusation, those should go to AN/ANI. And policy reform proposals should either be accepted or rejected here or at VPP, and then move on. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:01, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Query on editing restrictions[edit]

Deryck C., I was wondering about the fourth restriction, which starts with "(To balance the maths)". I initially thought this explanation meant the second QPQ would be requested to make up for having two QPQs used to review a single LavaBaron nomination, but the way this reads, LavaBaron's second QPQ can be of a nomination already approved by another reviewer. Is this what you meant? While sometimes this means simple duplication of results (as here, which would not normally be eligible for QPQ credit), it can mean LavaBaron finding issues with an approved review, which does help the process. Also, so far as I can tell, the first review doesn't actually need to start from scratch, but simply that the DYK review has not yet been approved/accepted, unless by "accepted" you mean "accepted for review (but not necessarily approved)". Please clarify. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:12, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset: Your interpretation is correct. One of the reviews needs to be a fresh review; the other can just be "I agree [because...]" or "I disagree because...". Rule #2 has essentially side-stepped LavaBaron from the review chain, so I tried to find a way to balance out the reviewer effort while allowing LavaBaron to participate meaningfully and receive oversight at the same time. From the reviews linked above, I think LavaBaron has been using the requirements of his restriction to participate constructively, which is encouraging. Deryck C. 23:11, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
Thank you, Deryck C. That's very clear. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:53, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Prep 1[edit]

that mathematician Sergei Nikolaevich Chernikov already had the first of his five department chairs before defending his DSc in 1940?

Perhaps I'm just dim, but (a) I certainly don't understand what "defending one's DSc" means, and (b) I don't understand at all what makes this claim so remarkable or even vaguely interesting? For such a legend of maths, this hook leaves me cold. But perhaps I am alone. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:41, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

  • If I'm not wrong, it's saying that he was made chair of a department before he has completed the equivalent of his doctorate (or thereabouts). Which is quite unusual in academia (I've never heard of such before) but I doubt that anybody outside academia would find it terribly interesting. Vanamonde93 (talk) 08:35, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Surely there's some potential in the fact that he worked as a laborer and driver before becoming a mathematician? "...that Sergei Nikolaevich Chernikov worked as a driver after secondary school, and went on to become head of mathematics at five different universities?" Vanamonde93 (talk) 08:39, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
  • pinging @Cwmhiraeth: who promoted the hook: I would not feel okay pulling this myself. Thoughts, Cwmhiraeth? Vanamonde93 (talk) 09:11, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Like TRM, I wondered what defending a DSc meant. There is nothing basically wrong with the present hook, but a more interesting hook could be found. Either what Vanamonde93 suggests, or how about "... that Sergei Nikolaevich Chernikov was considered to be "one of the pioneers of linear programming"?" Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:30, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
  • The hook is certainly factual, but I think any of the suggested alternatives are a vast improvement on the interest level and accessibility level. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:34, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Oh well, we had some good ideas, but nothing was done about it and it moved untouched from prep to queue to main page. How depressing. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:16, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Problems on the nomination page[edit]

I notice these two problems on the nominations page:

  1. The nomination for El Gran Destafio (2011) brings up an empty page.
  2. The nomination for Hoi Tong Monastery has got mixed up with the following nomination.

Expert help needed! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:36, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Destafio is a spelling mistake. The word is desafío, if that's any help. Awien (talk) 10:27, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Nominated under the wrong name, article was moved, but looks like DYK template was not?  MPJ-DK  11:08, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
I think I fixed the Gran Desafio issue.  MPJ-DK  12:25, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
MPJ-DK, I notice you moved the template to solve this issue. Templates aren't supposed to be moved. Messes up something in the system. BlueMoonset can you add something here? — Maile (talk) 12:31, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Ah dang I did not know that, anything I can do to fix it?  MPJ-DK  12:36, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
It's probably a simple fix, but I've never done it. I mistakenly moved a template years ago, but someone else fixed it for me. Best to wait now for someone who knows more about this glitch. — Maile (talk) 12:43, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
The 2011 was a fairly simple fix—most was done by MPJ-DK after the move to the nomination template and the nominations transclusion—but a similar move to the 2009 left things in a mess, which I've just fixed. Remember, folks, if the article is moved, don't move the DYK nomination, but mention on the template that the move has occurred, so the wikignomes can do the necessary fixes. That way nothing needs to be done to the DYK nomination transclusion, and fewer changes are needed to the actual nomination template. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:50, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
  • The Hoi Tong Monastery problem has been resolved. Had nothing to do with that nomination. The one right below that Priscilla Nzimiro was the problem. Where the template stated "Please do not write below this line or remove this line. Place comments above this line." a lot of people wrote below that line. When the nomination was closed, everything below the line remained on the nominations page with nothing to connect it to. — Maile (talk) 12:12, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
  • A reminder to all prep set builders: when you approve a nomination template, check it in Preview first: if there are comments hanging out below the bottom of the blue "closed" section, move them back inside the template (and check again) before saving the promoted template. That prevents problems like this one. (I had to fix one just yesterday that had dozens of lines outside the template, and thus showing up on the nominations page and making very confusing reading. Thanks—a few extra seconds to check saves boatloads of confusion later. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:50, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Congratulations to me![edit]

Thank you to The C of E who just noticed that my DYK hook for Tiffany Trump is the most viewed non-lead DYK in the history of the world! (Unfortunately, I don't think my current DYK double-review restrictions will allow me to unilaterally make edits to the stats page, so you'll have to take my word for it.) Barnstars or general salutations can be placed on my Talk page for those so inclined. This is a very positive note to retire on and I appreciate all the reviewers, promoters, admins, etc. who helped make this possible.

For the article Tiffany Trump to receive this honor just goes to show that, truly, anyone can successfully contribute to WP even with very little knowledge or, in fact, no knowledge at all. My advice to all of you is to never stop dreaming and reach for the stars. Thanks again, everyone! LavaBaron (talk) 17:55, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Very true @LavaBaron:. I remember when I once held that honour of having the highest viewed non-lead DYK (and I also held with the most viewed lead simultaneously for a little while), I knew little about American law yet was able to write a decent article on a small lawsuit that took the title. Everyone editing should heed the advice given above. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 20:00, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Congratulations. The bulk of the hits on that page will have been due to her appearance at the Republication convention and so LavaBaron got lucky in that DYK scheduled it at the same time. But his development of the article will have meant that all those readers – about a million of them – got to read a page which was more accurate and polished than it would have been otherwise. Kudos. Andrew D. (talk) 19:55, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
  • I just took a look at the page and feel that it really lacks a good picture. Surely the Queen of Instagram can spare us something? LavaBaron's next challenge is to obtain a good selfie or similar which we can use on the page.  :) Andrew D. (talk) 20:01, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
  • That sounds like a great idea, Andrew. I'll get on it. She really is our Princess Di. LavaBaron (talk) 03:31, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
  • @LavaBaron: The page views for your hook may actually be only half as much, as Tiffany Trump was already receiving over 100,000 views the day before (and after?). You need to do the formula VX − (VX−1 + VX+1) to determine how many page views came from the DYK hook. Yoninah (talk) 16:53, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
  • I think it is actually VX − (VX−1 + VX+1) / 2. EdChem (talk) 06:31, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

[Closed] Queue 3[edit]

Fixed per ERRORS. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:52, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi, I've been offline for a day and didn't see this hook in prep. Could someone please explain why the words in this hook are in quotes ... and why it is hooky?

  • ... that Irene Barnes Taeuber "helped found the science of demography"?
Yoninah (talk) 22:19, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
It seems it's in quotes because it's word-for-word from the source. Maybe @David Eppstein: who wrote the article can offer some insight. I guess it's hooky because she and her husband Conrad Taeuber sort of invented the science of demography. Where would the census people be without it?— Maile (talk) 22:26, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
It is indeed a quote, hence the quote marks. Removing them would cause it to become plagiarism. As for why it's hooky: demography is an important area of study and practice. Did you already know who its founders were? —David Eppstein (talk) 22:30, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Just thinking of all those (millions?) of Wikipedia geographical articles that list demographics in their content.— Maile (talk) 22:35, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
What I mean is that the words are so simple, you could paraphrase them yourself. Meanwhile, I'm looking at the article and seeing the hook fact only in the lead. It is sourced, but it should be fleshed out in the body of the article, no? Yoninah (talk) 22:49, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
What, I should embellish the quote, add more quotey words to it, to make a longer version of the quote that would appear in the text of the article so that the lead quote could be a summary of it? That's...not how quotes work, I think. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:56, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Well at the least, the quote should be repeated in the main body and expanded upon, i.e. discussed encyclopedically. I agree that the hook is dull, and the quote is unnecessary. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:22, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[Closed] Prep 1[edit]

Pulled. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:51, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

... that Norwich City Football Club joint majority shareholders Michael Wynn-Jones and Delia Smith had the least net worth of any owners in the 2015–16 Premier League?

Joseph2302, Cwmhiraeth, Yoninah This claim is referenced by the Mirror and the Star, neither of which is a reliable source. The claim is probably true, but please fix the sourcing before this gets to the main page. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:19, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

I think it is the least good of the three approved hooks, inquiring into people's net worth being a pretty low form of undertaking beloved by the reptile press. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:30, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Well whichever hook replaces it, please ensure RS's are used to cite it. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:32, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
The closing reviewer said that any of the hooks were fine, and frankly, the rest of the hooks were pretty ho-hum. As this is now in the queue, we non-administrators can't change the hook. Could an administrator return it to the main noms page for further work? Yoninah (talk) 08:32, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Cwmhiraeth If you think that "inquiring into people's net worth being a pretty low form of undertaking beloved by the reptile press", then why did you approve all the hooks originally then? And ALT1 and ALT2 are supported by better sources, such as broadsheet newspapers. Joseph2302 09:14, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Please fix this nomination so we don't have proposers arguing with promoters and bad sources being used. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:50, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Main page discussion on DYK project[edit]

A discussion has been initiated at Talk:Main Page#Should we lose DYK from the Main Page? which will be of interest to some editors at this project. EdChem (talk) 10:49, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Queue 1[edit]

... that BJP MP Hukum Singh claimed that Kairana had become a "new Kashmir"?

The target article starts with this sentence.

  • "Kairana and Kandhla migration row ... refers to the migration of families from Kairana and Kandhla during 2014–16, allegedly due to extortion and looting by goons of gangster Mukim Kala."

Goons? Describing a living person as a gangster with no sources? (he and his "goons" aren't mentioned again in the article).

Less of an issue (but still a bar to it being linked from the main page), this is a very poor article, littered with terrible English and grammar ("Hukum Singh had also requested him for the same", "Naseemuddin Siddiqui blamed BJP and said that it was doing drama over the issue"), using native terms that aren't explained or linked ("Sangeet Som organised Nirbhay Padyatra from his constituency. Before he could reach Kairana, police stopped him. After some initial disagreement, Som ended his yatra"). I was no wiser after reading it as to any detail of what it was about or why it was important, apart from being some minor local political disagreement. Laura Jamieson (talk) 11:54, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Agreed, while some reviewers favour a "light touch" when it comes to passing hooks, usually based on just checking the hook itself and ignoring the rest of the article, I'm with Laura in that the articles themselves must be up to a certain standard and not full of jargon, grammar errors, poor English, BLP issues etc. Suggest this hook is pulled and the nom re-opened. ASAP. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:03, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
I was the one who reviewed this. The language is definitely sub-par. However, I searched through web news sources before approving it; and the only characterizations of the individual in question are "criminal," "gang leader," etc (all of these from sources currently in the article). The sentence TRM points out is based on the reference at the end of the next sentence. That reference, from an excellent news source, has the sub-heading "Nearly 350 families have reportedly fled from Uttar Pradesh's Kairana city since 2014 due to repeated extortion and threat calls from gangster Mukim Kala." Likewise, the language at the bottom of the page contains some native terms but which are used in the source material. My familiarity with articles on Indian politics perhaps led to my ignoring those. So pull the hook and reopen the review, by all means, but the constraints I pointed out remain. Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 12:57, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
  • TRM, I've copy-edited the page, and during that added links or more detail to a lot of the local terminology. Take a look. Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 15:36, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
  • This is better, but I'm still not understanding (a) why it's important, or (b) why this is even a notable topic. We don't even know that the main issue is even true; as the article says, many people dispute it and even Singh admitted he had not checked the veracity of his list (indeed source 6 says much of it is wrong, yet the lead suggests it is correct). This is the danger of having articles on local political disagreements throughout the world; sources disagree so much that writing a neutral article is very difficult, especially with ones where the facts are as unclear as this one. Laura Jamieson (talk) 16:12, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
  • I'm still with Laura, it's a struggle. It's also notable that the actual country to which this is relevant (i.e. India) doesn't even appear in the lead. I still suggest taking this out and having some time to reflect on how best to present these kinds of hooks to our general audience (most of whom, let's be honest, won't get it AT ALL). The Rambling Man (talk) 21:49, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Queue 1[edit]

I have promoted Template:Did you know nominations/Jericó Abramo Masso to Prep 3 to provide a hook that can be slotted into the empty slot in Queue 1. Could an administrator please move it into the queue? Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 18:39, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:48, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks! Yoninah (talk) 21:51, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

DYKReviewBot on the nominations page[edit]

Seeking input about the notion of reducing the point size to small text for the DYKReviewBot entries in DYK nominations. Is it just me, or does the significant extra information make it more difficult to read through all of the entries on the main DYK nominations page? A reduced point size will make it easier to discern between bot- and human-generated content. Another idea is to use {{collapsetop}} and {{collapsebottom}} along with the small point size for the DYKReviewBot entries in DYK nominations. Pinging Intelligentsium who developed the script. Below are examples, using content from this DYK nomination. North America1000 22:33, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Using small point size[edit]

  • Symbol redirect vote 4.svg No issues found with article, ready for human review.
    • This article is new and was created on 20:28, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
    • This article meets the DYK criteria at 2246 characters
    • All paragraphs in this article have at least one citation
    • This article has no outstanding maintenance tags
    • A copyright violation is unlikely (2.9% confidence; confirm)
      • Note to reviewers: There is low confidence in this automated metric, please manually verify that there is no copyright infringement or close paraphrasing. Note that this number may be inflated due to cited quotes and titles which do not constitute a copyright violation.
  • No overall issues detected
    • The media File:Rivière-Cavo.jpg is free-use
    • The hook ALT0 is an appropriate length at 89 characters
    • Wuerzele has fewer than 5 DYK credits. No QPQ required. Note a QPQ will be required after 1 more DYKs.

Automatically reviewed by DYKReviewBot. This bot is experimental; please report any issues. This is not a substitute for a human review. --DYKReviewBot (report bugs) 23:16, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Using collapse box[edit]

(Note: This would look nice left-aligned, but having difficulties in accomplishing this.)

DYKReviewBot content
  • Symbol redirect vote 4.svg No issues found with article, ready for human review.
    • This article is new and was created on 20:28, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
    • This article meets the DYK criteria at 2246 characters
    • All paragraphs in this article have at least one citation
    • This article has no outstanding maintenance tags
    • A copyright violation is unlikely (2.9% confidence; confirm)
      • Note to reviewers: There is low confidence in this automated metric, please manually verify that there is no copyright infringement or close paraphrasing. Note that this number may be inflated due to cited quotes and titles which do not constitute a copyright violation.
  • No overall issues detected
    • The media File:Rivière-Cavo.jpg is free-use
    • The hook ALT0 is an appropriate length at 89 characters
    • Wuerzele has fewer than 5 DYK credits. No QPQ required. Note a QPQ will be required after 1 more DYKs.

Automatically reviewed by DYKReviewBot. This bot is experimental; please report any issues. This is not a substitute for a human review. --DYKReviewBot (report bugs) 23:16, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Using collapse[edit]

Using the {{Collapse}} template, with content expanded.

DYKReviewBot content
  • Symbol redirect vote 4.svg No issues found with article, ready for human review.
    • This article is new and was created on 20:28, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
    • This article meets the DYK criteria at 2246 characters
    • All paragraphs in this article have at least one citation
    • This article has no outstanding maintenance tags
    • A copyright violation is unlikely (2.9% confidence; confirm)
      • Note to reviewers: There is low confidence in this automated metric, please manually verify that there is no copyright infringement or close paraphrasing. Note that this number may be inflated due to cited quotes and titles which do not constitute a copyright violation.
  • No overall issues detected
    • The media File:Rivière-Cavo.jpg is free-use
    • The hook ALT0 is an appropriate length at 89 characters
    • Wuerzele has fewer than 5 DYK credits. No QPQ required. Note a QPQ will be required after 1 more DYKs.

Automatically reviewed by DYKReviewBot. This bot is experimental; please report any issues. This is not a substitute for a human review. --DYKReviewBot (report bugs) 23:16, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

Do you think it might be helpful to move this discussion to Requests for approval/DYKReviewBot? It's in a trial phase, and this would be useful on the bot's request for approval page. — Maile (talk) 22:43, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

It's unlikely that many people will see that discussion, whereas those that are involved in DYK are highly likely to see the discussion here. So, I've added a link to this discussion on that page (diff). North America1000 22:50, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I see what you mean. I'm neutral on this. If it gets shrunk, fine. If not, fine. There are a lot of nominations that have lengthy talk threads that go on and on and on. However, having the review bot make the type size smaller would have it more noticeable so it wouldn't be overlooked. — Maile (talk) 22:53, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Interesting point about the smaller point size preventing the bot content from being overlooked, which I didn't consider. This makes sense, so that the content in nominations is varied, preventing it from appearing as one long wall of text. North America1000 22:58, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Even better if had a little box (border) around it to set it apart, somewhat like it looks above in the box you collapsed. That might be too much to ask for, tho. — Maile (talk) 23:03, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
This can also be done. See the "Using collapse" section I just added above. North America1000 23:15, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
North America see this. Looks like you're not the only one with this concern. — Maile (talk) 23:17, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the link. Thus far, I personally like the "Using collapse box" option to collapse the content entirely, which will significantly reduce the length of the nominations page and make it much easier to read. All users have to do to view the content is select "show" in the box. North America1000 23:22, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────One other thing brought up at the BRFA was to noinclude this section, so it appears in the review, but not in aggregated reviews. — xaosflux Talk 23:40, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I share Northamerica1000's concern about wading through reams of copy to find nominations to promote, and said as much on the bot review page. A collapsible box sounds very good. Yoninah (talk) 23:43, 25 July 2016 (UTC)nom

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I'll add <noinclude> tags to prevent bot reviews from cluttering the nominations page or impacting load time for slow connections. However, I'm a bit wary of collapsing the comments, especially if there are issues that need to be addressed as I'd like those to be immediately visible to the nominator and to reviewers. I'm also open to making the font smaller if this doesn't present an accessibility issue (which other users are more qualified to comment on than I am) Intelligentsium 00:34, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

DYK is almost overdue[edit]

In less than two hours Did you know will need to be updated, however the next queue either has no hooks or has not been approved by an administrator. It would be much appreciated if an administrator would take the time to ensure that DYK is updated on time by following these instructions:

  1. Check the prep areas; if there are between 6-10 hooks on the page then it is probably good to go. If not move approved hooks from the suggestions page and add them and the credits as required.
  2. Once completed edit queue #4 and replace the page with the entire content from the next update
  3. Add {{DYKbotdo|~~~}} to the top of the queue and save the page

Then, when the time is right I will be able to update the template. Thanks and have a good day, DYKUpdateBot (talk) 10:54, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

With DYKBot, how much of a review is necessary for a QPQ?[edit]

I just promoted this nomination after doing the regular double-checking for the DYK criteria. Now that we have the DYK bot listing all the criteria, I'm wondering if this reviewer's sketchy review can be considered enough for a QPQ? Yoninah (talk) 00:02, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

  • In general, I think it's probably a good idea for community discussion on this very subject. On the one hand, the bot is at least checking for basics. That's a good thing. Really good. On the other hand, it doesn't check for things like grammar, spelling and whether or not an article even makes sense. Does the bot check against whether or not the sources are verifiable and not OR? It's also a good idea for a human to be reviewing the copyvio check, even a spot check. Both the Earwig tool and Dup Detector sometimes miss the obvious. — Maile (talk) 00:26, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
  • It's definitely important to have this discussion. A major motivating factor for the bot was to shift the focus of reviews away from checking off things like "are there enough characters in the article?" / "What day was the article created?" and towards a more holistic, content-based review. The thoroughness of the review certainly should not go down - in my mind this means checking the spelling, doing a copyedit, commenting on the quality and quantity of sources, etc. (I hope it goes without saying that the reviewer should still at the very least fully read each article!). Should we think about amending the various pages explaining how to do a review (which currently emphasize the bot-verifiable criteria, the less objective criteria less so) Intelligentsium 00:51, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps we should revise the instructions on the edit page to emphasize the things that aren't covered by the bot. I'd say the human reviewer should focus on the following:
  • Are the sources reliable?
  • Does the text reflect the sources, especially the hook fact?
  • Is the article neutral? Is the selection of sources unbiased?
  • Are there cut-and-paste or close paraphrasing copyvios not caught by Earwig?
Antony–22 (talkcontribs) 23:21, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Grammar and spelling is a really important check, I think. — Maile (talk) 00:03, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

DYK is almost overdue[edit]

In less than two hours Did you know will need to be updated, however the next queue either has no hooks or has not been approved by an administrator. It would be much appreciated if an administrator would take the time to ensure that DYK is updated on time by following these instructions:

  1. Check the prep areas; if there are between 6-10 hooks on the page then it is probably good to go. If not move approved hooks from the suggestions page and add them and the credits as required.
  2. Once completed edit queue #3 and replace the page with the entire content from the next update
  3. Add {{DYKbotdo|~~~}} to the top of the queue and save the page

Then, when the time is right I will be able to update the template. Thanks and have a good day, DYKUpdateBot (talk) 22:04, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Oldest nominations needing DYK reviewers[edit]

The previous list was archived a few hours ago, so here's a new list of the 37 oldest nominations that need reviewing, which includes all those through July 16. Some of these have initial review info from the new DYK review bot, but still need a full human review. As of the most recent update, 42 nominations have been approved, leaving 137 of 179 nominations still needing approval. Thanks to everyone who reviews these, especially the ones left over from June and early July, which continue to need a reviewer.

Please remember to cross off entries as you finish reviewing them (unless you're asking for further review), even if the review was not an approval. Many thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 05:40, 30 July 2016 (UTC)