Wikipedia talk:Deletion process

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Procedural question on relistings[edit]

When an XFD is relisted, does that mean there's no consensus either way? And if there's no consensus either way, that defaults to keep, right? So what happens if no one comments after it is relisted? Is it a delete, no consensus, keep or what? Is it allowed for anything to be deleted on a relisted XFD that had no comments after it was relisted? –HTD 16:25, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

  • Its a bit grey, When AFD was better populated a relist was less common and was more more for deadlocked discussions so we did tend to be harder about no commentary after a relist = no consensus. Now we are struggling to get enough participation a relist is often just an attempt to get a bit more participation. In this case if there is a relatively clear consensus once its clear we won't get anymore comments we can go ahead to clear it but obviously the closing admin should be more open to challenge about the close when the participation is a bit on the low side. Spartaz Humbug! 18:18, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
    • Hmmm, I was going to reference something, but I realize someone else responded on the discussion, but not a separate vote but a reply to his delete vote that was unanswered; other than that no one else commented. The reply was above the notice of relisting so I didn't spot it. Is this a good enough reason for a DRV? –HTD 18:37, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
      • Depends what the arguments were. What AFD is this? Spartaz Humbug! 18:40, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
        • Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2015 April 3#Template:United States Squad 2002 FIBA World Championship. TL;DR: It's WP:IDONTLIKEIT vs WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. –HTD 18:43, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
          • Hmm TFD is a bit broken and very slow to close and arguments can be arbitary but this isn't one I'd want to hang my hat on for DRV to change the outcome. This looks like a clear participation relist and the close given several users voting to delete and only one real keep voice is well within the closing admins discretion. Honestly? You are most likely wasting your time but are welcome to give it a whirl and see how it goes given that TFD is a bit broken and DRV can be a bit random on both T and C deletions. (If it helps to know what I'm basing this on, I have been a DRV regular from 2006 and was the regular DRV closer for a long while so I do have a feel for the way DRV goes). Spartaz Humbug! 18:48, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
            • I know it's not a vote count, but basically it was 3-1 with 1 "comment". 2 had some valid deletion arguments as far as deletion arguments go, with just one stating actual policy, and the third one was just a single sentence vote because of "navbox creep". The keep was me (HA) citing WP:OSE and longstanding precedent elsewhere. I know that DRV isn't "XFD round 2" but for certain procedural things in case an admin missed out on something. At the very least I'm expecting a reopening of the XFD and see how it goes from there. –HTD 18:59, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Request for comment[edit]

Your comment is requested at WT:Templates for discussion#RfC: Proposal to allow non-admin "delete" closures at TfD. --Izno (talk) 19:14, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

"Previous voted..."[edit]

The edit made here seems to stem from the same idea as WP:INVOLVED though as Black Kite notes INVOLVED doesn't quite fit the bill since it seems to extend notions about administrators to closers of XFDs. Maybe it's creep to discuss it in this context. @Northamerica1000: who removed it (I'll let others decide whether it was a bold or a revert), and @MSJapan, Black Kite, AndyTheGrump, Andy Dingley, Reyk, and Timtrent: who participated in the original discussion. --Izno (talk) 14:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

  • See the RfC directly below this thread, and please comment there. North America1000 14:07, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Relisting process – Should relisting discussions automatically exclude users from any !voting in the discussion?[edit]

Responding to the request for closure at WP:ANRFC. Consensus is against including anything in the guideline about relisting and !voting at this time. That said, there is also general agreement that in some circumstances it's not a good idea, and that some caution is advisable when doing so. Sunrise (talk) 20:15, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recently an edit was added to the Deletion process page that stated, "Users who have previously voted in a discussion should not relist it, and users who have relisted a debate should not subsequently vote in it." (diff). This addition was based upon the fifteen-hour discussion at Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Archive 68 § Question on an AfD procedure..., which was in part about one AfD discussion. I reverted this change because it is rather abrupt and could have significant chilling effects upon users that contribute to AfD, particularly regular contributors who work to keep the backlog down. At this point, requesting community input regarding this matter via RfC. North America1000 14:06, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

  • Oppose – As worded, this limits users to too great of an extent. For example, if an editor relists a discussion as a part of routine AfD log maintenance, they should not be forbidden from later participation in a discussion. Additionally, if a user participates in an AfD discussion by !vote and the discussion has received little or no other input, or if new compelling arguments or sources are presented that were previously nonexistent in the discussion, etc., that user should not be limited from relisting in efforts for a clearer consensus to be obtained. In instances of AfD discussions with little or no input that require relisting, this type of addition to the guideline would also force users to consider whether or not they want to contribute to the discussion on the spot, adding unnecessary complexity to the process and creating an unnecessary barrier to keeping AfD running smoothly. Also, relisting is not the same thing as closing a discussion, and should not be considered as such. With AfD receiving less and less input nowadays, it seems too abrupt to further limit participation in this manner. North America1000 14:06, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Order matters Relisting after having made a comment on the substance of a discussion is problematic, a relisting essentially says more discussion is needed for a close, and thus a close immediately after, does sort of contradict the relist, even if not prohibited. Thus you should not relist a discussion you have !voted in. However I see nothing wrong with relisting, and then becoming WP:Involved in the substantive discussion, so long as a relisting was justified at the time you did so. So lets say there are three delete !votes, and no keeps; you should not relist because in its current state it should probably be closed delete, but you may vote !keep, and that may be enough for someone else to relist it. If instead its nom pluss 1 delete !vote and one keep, it would qualify for relisting, and after you relist it, there is no problem with voting either way. Monty845 15:10, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose - I used to !vote and relist on the same AFDs but was told I wasn't supposed too, My logic was If you've !voted in an AFD, Come next week your going through the entire log to relist and see the AFD needs relisting despite you voting - The easiest thing to do is relist instead of leaving AFDs here & there & to a certain extent being a pain, I continued to moan here but wiped it as was all off-topic so we'll leave it there, –Davey2010Talk 16:10, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
  • My thought on this is that it follows from the same principle as WP:INVOLVED, and I'm not sure that the practicality is worth being seen as being involved. What comes to mind regards Monty's "order matters":
    • For "!vote, then relist", the bad actor scenario here is that someone objects to the apparent consensus in a discussion (at whatever date; don't forget that some things are relisted more than once) and then decides that the consensus is not in his favor, and so prevents an uninvolved person (admin or no) from making the decision to relist by relisting it himself. This is clearly something that we should want to prevent from occurring.
    • For "Relist, then !vote", I think this is just a point of semantics to distinguish between the two. Whether the !vote appears above or below the relist, you still look INVOLVED to have relisted it yourself. Though perhaps I'm taking the case of "these actions are occurring near in time to each other".
  • I don't know whether I oppose the wording or agree with it, however, so this is just some idle thoughts. --Izno (talk) 17:07, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Circumstantial - the addition (and honestly, WP:INVOLVED as well) pretty much assumes bad faith (or the assumption of bad faith, know) - the situation is almost never that black and white. I think that there should be a warning that relisting and opining on a discussion, in whatever order, could be seen as improper, but that it should not be forbidden except for egregious offenders. Also remember that a relisted discussion can be closed at any time, not only 7 days after the relisting. ansh666 21:02, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Relisting != closing. Relisting can not really be tainted by a !vote. Yes, editors should exercise some caution when relisting AfDs they have !voted in; however they can be closed at any time and by any administrator or non-admin in the case of clear cases (disagreements can be discussed), not necessarily in seven days. This would be instruction creep at best. Esquivalience t 22:15, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - First of all, it wasn't a "recent change" - the edit was made by me six weeks ago, based on the statement that BOLD would cover it. Here's the link to the AfD that spawned the discussion and led to the edit: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Adarsh_Liberal. The originator of this discussion (Northamerica1000) was the perpetrator of the issues that led to the edit, so this discussion is either disingenuous on his part, or he's hoisted himself on his own petard. TL:DR is: that AfD was 0-3 (inc. nom) after the initial 7 days. It was relisted (by NA1000) instead of closed. The votes then went to 0-5, but the article was relisted again by NA1000, who then voted keep not three minutes later. That is nothing but biased administration. Now he wants to have the policy edit overturned so he can continue to decide unilaterally what should be kept in this community project. Moreover, the edit was not to prevent "!voting", it was to prevent any voting in an AfD by those performing procedures, and vice versa, because INVOLVED wasn't strong enough on this matter. Anyone who relists a discussion should not be participating in it, because the votes matter to the discussion. In point of fact, my change was to address exactly what happened here, because as far as I am concerned, that AfD was going to be relisted until NA1000 got his keep/no consensus. MSJapan (talk) 00:50, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
I admit that regarding the above-linked discussion, it would have been better for me to have provided my !vote and to not have relisted it, leaving the decision to relist for another user. You're misinterpreting my intent here, though, which was innocent and to simply allow time for the new sources to be considered. It's not necessarily uncommon for discussions to be relisted when new sources are presented. For example, see this discussion, whereby an admin deleted an article and then reverted their close because new sources were posted around the same time it was being closed. Also, your vote count above is incorrect (diff): for starters, the first relist occurred after one delete !vote occurred, which along with the nomination, totaled two. Perhaps you misread the comment following the nomination as a delete !vote? North America1000 01:47, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
And that first comment was basically a keep opinion, though based on potentially faulty reasoning, making the first relist very reasonable. ansh666 03:21, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Too much logical fallacy here. What happened on another AfD is not germane to this discussion. Finding sources is not what happened here. Debating minutiae only derails the discussion. Off by one vote or not, I saw no issue with the first relist at any time (and stated such). A clear consensus was reached after the first relist, as there were no keep votes. The AfD was relisted instead of closed, with the relister voting contrary to the consensus after the relist. That is a problem, because it appears biased even if it's a mistake. To summarize the situational issues as to why I made the change:
1. Vote and relist/close - if clear consensus is there, there is no need to vote. If there isn't, the person is either creating consensus and closing or voting against the trend and relisting, in either case appearing to manipulate the AfD in support of their position.
2. Relist and vote - If a consensus has been reached, relisting is unnecessary, as is any additional voting. If consensus has not been reached, relisting and voting either way appears biased, as above, and more so when the relister's vote is against the trend.
That is the underlying issue behind the change to the policy page here, as INVOLVED doesn't cover this. I see no problem with adjusting either policy, but the opportunity for issues is too great if there is a requirement to remain neutral - if you look at the discussion on AfD, Black Kite closed several AfDs that fit the pattern I pointed out. It wasn't just one instance. This is one of those cases where if there appears to be a problem, there is. People fixing backlog should be doing admin tasks, not voting on AfDs, because AFAIK, no votes either way still can be closed as delete because there were no objections. We've got lots of precedents for AfD, but what happened in the Adarsh Liberal AfD shouldn't be one of them. MSJapan (talk) 19:12, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment – I feel that what has occurred in other AfD discussions is relevant toward this discussion, in part because changes to deletion policy should be based upon consensus, with consideration being allowed in this discussion toward precedents at AfD that exist, rather than based upon a bold edit to the Deletion process page per one AfD discussion. As I have stated, there is precedent for the relisting of discussions in which new information or sources have been presented, or ongoing discussion/commentary has occurred that was previously not present before a first relisting. As such, people that have participated in such discussions should not be automatically prohibited from relisting by default. Some examples of relisted discussions that were leaning toward or had a consensus that were relisted per new content presented in them are listed below.
I understand the notion of a person who has participated in a discussion that is leaning toward a particular outcome who has !voted against that outcome not relisting it, but I still feel it's too drastic to outlaw any relisting in discussions that an editor has participated in, particularly those that 1) do not have a clear consensus, and would likely be relisted anyway by another user, 2) when new sources/information etc. have been presented that has a reasonable likelihood to significantly counter previous arguments. I also think that a user who has previously relisted a discussion should not be forbidden from later participation, which is unnecessarily prohibitive, with chilling effects. As stated above, the change to the page, which stated (diff):
"Users who have previously voted in a discussion should not relist it, and users who have relisted a debate should not subsequently vote in it."
is too far-reaching and prohibitive, forces users to consider whether or not they want to participate prior to relisting, and does not take into account various circumstances that may occur. North America1000 09:10, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose Not sure what problem this solves. Someone relisting a discussion going the "wrong" way and then voting in the hopes that it will stay open long enough to attract votes to their position? That may be a problem but I don't know if it rises to the level of needing a policy to proscribe it. Protonk (talk) 16:52, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose for reasons given by Northamerica1000 and Protonk, though some clarification of 'inappropriate' re-listings might be useful.Pincrete (talk) 17:55, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment: Another reason why relisting then !voting may be beneficial is because many assess notability by looking at the references alone, without searching for sources. Often, I come across AfDs with a consensus to delete, yet when I look for sources, they are blindingly obvious, I could just merely vote on the 7-day-old AfD and hope that the closer doesn't do a raw vote count, but it would make sense to relist then vote, as new sources are available, and it requires more discussion. Esquivalience t 02:51, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment – Also, as a related concept, at WP:DRVPURPOSE #3, it states that deletion review may be used "if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page". This is similar to the notion of relisting when new sources become available in an AfD discussion. North America1000 07:07, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment – Another AfD relisted per new sources presented in the discussion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Invoicera. North America1000 07:43, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
  • I don't think the commenters should relist, but the other way around seems relatively harmless. What we actually need is for people to stop hitting the relist button because it's "close" and they want to give it another whirl around rather than close no-consensus. Stifle (talk) 10:38, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose - I think it's good practice not to relist discussions you've participated in, but I don't think it needs to be codified as such. The counterpart, about not commenting in a discussion you've relisted, is seriously problematic in the way it discourages participation in the discussion and/or AfD upkeep. I see a questionable relisting once in a while, but I can't think of any example in which it seemed like the person relisting was doing so in pursuit of a particular outcome. The language that already exists implies this, but I might be able to support some brief language along the lines of "If consensus emerges from the discussion, the debate should not be relisted in pursuit of a different outcome." That at least would address the problem, insofar as a problem exists, directly. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:41, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Seven Days Rule and Discussion in a Nice Tone / Stop Fast Deleting[edit]

Maybe it's just me, but the admins at the German Wikipedia are very rude. Some of my articles were just deleted over night. It wouldn't be so tragic they were deleted, if I would understand why, and when I had a chance to explain my side of of view and they theirs (discussion). When then the better argument would be for a deletion, I would take it calm and say, well that's it. A lot of users, like me, are spending hours and entire days on creating articles/make articles better. So yes, it is hard when a Wikipedia article is deleted, but if it's understandable it's all right.

But German Admins use the "fast deleting" the whole time. And no, I am not spending hours on creating vandalism or things like that. I think it's rude when one person delete an entire article on their own - just because he had a bad day, the wife left him or something like that. It would be nice, if hard working people would get a Seven Day Chance to explain and discuss why/why not it should be deleted.

The German Admins just say "don't relevant, deleted" all the time. And well, the problem is, that deleted means gone forever. At other accounts I've written a lot of complex Chemistry/Physics/Mathematics (since I've studied it with a Phd). Really "basic" for bachelor/master students at those fields. But well, they are all gone, because one admin disliked Science (or what so ever).

I think we user should have some kind of protection from Admins. I think, that a Seven Day politics should be used much more at German Wikipedia. And hopefully some international Admins could fire the German ones and get some better people for the job. I think the fast deleting should only be for **Vandalism** and nothing more. And then let the arguments speak seven days, and based on the arguments and meanings of the Wikipedia community, the decision should be taken.

PS! I think people should be more friendly at the internet. They write thinks, they never would say to us at the face. And some of these Users are Admins. I don't like to get sentences like "this is shit and no one cares about it" - I have put a lot of effort in my articles, like the most. If it's not good enough, the community and author should together try to make it better. If it can't be better, you could at least be so kind to use a good tone and say "I don't think it is relevant, becaus ...". Everyone could live with that. --Basiliussap (talk) 21:01, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

This is the English Wikipedia, we can't do anything about the German Wikipedia. ansh666 22:34, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
No personal attacks also applies to users on the other Wikipedias. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. If you want, propose at the German Wikipedia, as we aren't Meta-Wiki, but such a rant would have scant success - I suggest you make it less critical. Esquivalience t 02:43, 16 July 2015 (UTC)


If you delete a userpage will it delete all of its subpages? I would like to delete a former userpage from a different account I had. StanCubed (talk) 17:51, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Clarification on reference to WP:TPO[edit]

Wikipedia:Deletion process#Non-administrators closing discussions has two mentions of "appropriate notice as per WP:TPO". What specifically at TPO is this referencing? An expansion on the details would help, as it is not readily apparent to me. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 21:15, 18 August 2015 (UTC)


"Notice of the restoration should be posted at WP:RFPP." was added by Unscintillating here. This makes little sense to me. Any reason to keep it? --NeilN talk to me 17:44, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I think decisions like that should be left to Protection policy. This question was inspired by this request for page protection, which in turn was an application of WP:NACD to a procedural mistake I made at Articles for deletion/International Space Elevator Consortium. Since I agreed with the revert, no point was served by protection. RockMagnetist(talk) 17:58, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
If not at RFPP, there should be some other way to report restorations of NAC, so as to avoid confrontations. Regards—JAaron95 Talk 18:02, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Now @Samwalton9 has changed it to "posted at WP:ANRFC." Does it make sense to request closure when it is already closed? RockMagnetist(talk) 18:03, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

That's a good point, I misread this as being for when discussions are re-opened so I've reverted again. I don't understand at all where this was supposed to link then, I dont see how posting at RFPP helps anything. Sam Walton (talk) 18:10, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
The ultimate point is to notify an admin about the restoration... Regards—JAaron95 Talk 18:13, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
As pointed out by Timotheus Canens the aim may be to request protection so that further reverting doesn't take place by non-admins. This should probably be clearer if this is the case. Sam Walton (talk) 18:19, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
For the aim, we'll have to ask @Unscintillating, because this editor did it without any consensus, although there were multiple inconclusive discussions of when it is appropriate to revert NACs at the time of this edit. I agree that no participant should revert a closure, but protection questions should be left to WP:PROTECTION. RockMagnetist(talk) 18:35, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
WP:AN can be used to notify and a request for protection is only needed if there's an edit war going on. It should not be automatic. --NeilN talk to me 18:58, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Since Admins are aware of my restoration, and WP:Deletion Review is underway for reviewing the closure, I'm not reporting it anywhere. WP:AN/I works too! Regards—JAaron95 Talk 04:08, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

This conversation petered out. Since there is no consensus for reporting anywhere in particular, I am going to remove the sentence. RockMagnetist(talk) 15:07, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


{{recap}} is nominated for deletion. This is an ancillary deletion template for processing long deletion discussions -- (talk) 04:47, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

How does a non-administrator propose a template for speedy deletion?[edit]

This information should be explained on the project page Jc3s5h (talk) 19:44, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

You place the deletion tag on the template page inside <noinclude> tags (as explained on Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#Introduction_to_criteria). If the template's protected, you place the tag on the talk page instead (because you can't edit the main page as a non-admin in that case), although speedy-deleting protected pages isn't a situation that's likely to come up much. I added a description of that to the same area, because it doesn't seem to be listed anywhere and you're evidence that some people seem to be confused. --ais523 21:28, 15 September 2015 (UTC)