Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation

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WikiProject Disambiguation  
WikiProject iconThis page is within the scope of WikiProject Disambiguation, an attempt to structure and organize all disambiguation pages on Wikipedia. If you wish to help, you can edit the page attached to this talk page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project or contribute to the discussion.

Only two targets, and one has been changed to a Wiktionary redirect[edit]

What's the best thing to do with the disambiguation page in this scenario? Take Debility for instance. Debility (medical) was just a dictionary definition and so has been changed to a soft redirect to Wiktionary. So the only definition that still has an article is Debility (astrology). As such, should Debility be redirected to Debility (astrology)? Or Debility (astrology) moved to Debility? I suppose that doing either of these would mean deleting Debility (disambiguation) as no longer pointing to a disambiguation page. Or is it OK to have a disambiguation page listing pages that are Wiktionary redirects like this? And what about disambiguation hatnotes? I can see that in this instance we have a not insignificant number of links to Debility (medical), and moreover I wonder if people are likely to search for "debility" expecting the medical meaning.... — Smjg (talk) 16:55, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Although none of those links are red, the advice in WP:PRIMARYRED may still be relevant. If so, then the current situation is correct. It seems wrong to make a primary topic of an astrological meaning which Wiktionary doesn't even mention. Certes (talk) 17:30, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Debility (astrology) is also currently a one-sentence defintion and has no inbound links except this DAB whereas Debility (medical) has 20 inbound links. That suggests the med meaning might actually be primary, or at least that the astrology meaning isn't. DMacks (talk) 17:57, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for fixing my cut'n'paste goof when trying to protect this discussion against future move/redirects, User:Danbloch! DMacks (talk) 19:49, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Why is Debility (medical) not a redirect to Weakness? BD2412 T 20:03, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
The EL in Debility (astrology) is broken, and the article is therefore unreferenced. Nevertheless, a Google search for "debility astrology" suggests that the idea is complimentary to Dignity (astrology) (a redlink) and has sources. If anyone feels like writing up some pseudoscience, I think there's enough out there to support an article Dignity and debility, with suitable redirects.
I agree with BD2412 that no DAB page is justified, and that both Debility and Debility (medical) should redirect to Weakness. Narky Blert (talk) 20:52, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
A hatnote at Weakness would suffice for the relatively obscure astrology term. I suspect that should also point to some better developed astrology article. BD2412 T 20:56, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
Essential dignity and Accidental dignity mention debility in the astrological sense. Certes (talk) 21:19, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
They're both a mess. I would merge both into a single Dignity (astrology) (which would still need better sources), and point Debility (astrology) to that end product. BD2412 T 22:04, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Diminutive names, nicknames, etc.[edit]

On dab pages for human names, is there a preference for redirecting all forms of a first name (ex: Jim/Jimmy/Jimy/Jimbo/etc. Smith) to the given name (ex: James Smith), or one page for each? I suppose length matters, as well. Is this spelled out somewhere? I dug thru but could not find specifically what I was looking for. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 12:16, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't know if there's a specific guideline. There's certainly no consistency: Chris Miller contains some Christopher's and Christopher Hill some Chris's; names at the opposite ends of the alphabet (Bill/William, Bob/Robert) often share a page; and some people's birth name is actually a familiar form of a given name. If there's a WP:TOPIC, the name of the DAB page often aligns with that; but there are cases where people with both long and short forms independently have PTOPIC status. For added confusion, there are cases like Jimi Hendrix (full name James Marshall Hendrix but birth name Johnny Allen Hendrix); the many variant spellings of Muhammad (name) and Mahmud (19 between them); and variant transliterations (e.g. Cyrillic Алексей, see Alexey). IMO the commonsense approach is best: keep all related names on one page unless it gets too big to navigate comfortably, usually under the commonest form (e.g. Chris Clements), and redirect variants to it (tagged {{R from ambiguous term}}, plus {{printworthy}} and DEFAULTSORT if the variant name might not be obvious to everyone (e.g. the two pairs I mentioned above)). Narky Blert (talk) 08:27, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
I'd make a separate page if there are enough items. For example, if a reader knows they're looking for a Jim Jones, why should they have to wade through a bunch of James Joneses to find him? See also's from one to the other get readers where they need to if they are not exactly correct on the common name.—Bagumba (talk) 08:54, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
That was what kind of brought me here: sometimes it was awkward to wade thru a James page for Jimmy, other times it was crazy to have a separate page for 2 Jimmy's. I was hoping to find something that said "10 or more people with a diminutive name (Jimmy) get their own dab page, less than 10 should be on the root name page (James)." I would think if there is a root name page with several nicknames that are 10 or less then they would have their own section header on the root name's page, rather than mixed in with each other (for both readability & dab purposes). Common sense is great, but inconsistent. Would it make sense to codify this situation? Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 15:00, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
I tend to err on the side of the reader that knows what they are looking for. So if there were say 3 Jimmy's and 10 Jim's, I'd make a separate Jimmy dab, but maybe not if their are 3 Jimmy's and only 3 Jim's. At some point, non-techies will say it's too prescriptive, and it falls back to "common sense".—Bagumba (talk) 15:33, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

John Williams (disambiguation)[edit]

This is a good example. John Williams (dab), Johnnie Williams & Johnny Williams all redirect here. I believe there are 201(!) entries on this page. Confusingly, there are also dab pages for John A., B., C., D., E., F., G., H., J., L., M., P., R. & T. Williams. To me, looking for a John Williams, this page makes me give up. Can this one be streamlined? Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 20:20, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

We should trust that the reader knows what they want. If they're looking for Johnny Williams don't make them dig through 200 John Williams to find what they're looking for.
One of the three goals of disambiguation is to help the reader find what they're looking for quickly and easily. Combining different forms of a name on one disambiguation page makes it harder. Let's remove the guidance that suggests combining names on one disambiguation page.--Jahalive (talk) 19:16, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
I think the existing guidance – A single disambiguation page may be used to disambiguate a number of similar terms – is appropriate. Combining disambiguation pages for variant forms of names is desirable where the resulting disambiguation page is relatively short (for example, where there's only a half dozen articles altogether).
Obviously that's different in the case of the John Williams disambiguation page (on which I've done significant work recently). A separate disambiguation page for Johnny/Johnnie Williams (likely both combined) would probably be desirable for the same reason that we have separate disambiguation pages for middle initials (e.g., John H. Williams): it allows readers to bypass the 200-entry disambiguation page to quickly find the article they're looking for. (talk) 04:36, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
I don't want to remove the guidance you quoted above. Why is it desirable to combine disambiguation pages for variant forms of names?--Jahalive (talk) 22:43, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
The very nature of variant forms is that a person whose legal or formal name may be "John Williams", but they will be called a familiar form of that name in certain circumstances. For example, Johnny Williams (drummer) was legally "John Francis Williams", and legal documents about him are fairly likely to be under his legal name. BD2412 T 23:12, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Matt Walsh (disambiguation)[edit]

Two people that I'm not convinced should be on the page.

____ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug Weller (talkcontribs) 10:51, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

They both seem appropriate per MOS:DABMENTION. MB 14:12, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
The first one should definitely stay (he's mentioned 95 times in the linked article). But for the second, the dab page description says much more about him than anything that's in The Daily Wire article, and there's nothing that links to his redlink; I'd get rid of it. Station1 (talk) 17:55, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
For the second one, the infobox says he is a "key person" at the organization, and the article says he has his own podcast. That is a bit more than is on the dab. Having the entry is useful, for instance, if someone read something he wrote and was trying to find out more about him. I would leave it. MB 23:00, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
I agree. I'll get rid of the red linked one right now. He can always be re-added in the future if he's worthy of his own article. Masterhatch (talk) 23:01, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
Keep both entries: a reader looking for the second one , eg who reads "As Matt Walsh says in his podcast", would be helped by the dab page entry. PamD
Keep both. They satisfy WP:DABMENTION (and I speak as someone who deletes orphan redlinks from DAB pages every day). DAB pages are supposed to make finding information easy, not difficult. The vast majority of readers don't know how to search around an article with the same title as what they're looking for; and it isn't easy even if you do know. Narky Blert (talk) 08:22, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Did something happen to the rating system?[edit]

When I created DABs previously, they were assessed as "disambiguation pages", and showed up as so on my "Pages Created" page. Now they are all showing as unassessed. Did something change? It's not really a big deal, unless the pages have to be assessed again... more importantly it looks ugly on my page [here].--Ortizesp (talk) 02:48, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Facebook name change[edit]

Following Facebook's name change, some disambiguation folks may want to share thoughts at Talk:Meta, Inc.#Name change. Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}}talk 20:06, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

On a related topic, we are also seeking a better title for Meta (company), as this minor firm is clearly no longer a primary topic for the term. Certes (talk) 12:14, 2 November 2021 (UTC)


Query raised at Talk:Matsudaira clan#Dab? (I looked around for an appropriate template to post on that talk page, but failed to spot one, sorry.) (talk) 14:28, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

I added {{R with possibilities}} to the redirect. You can add further explanation on the TP. MB 15:14, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
Thanks MB (fwiw, I've added a brief remark on the article talk page). (talk) 18:07, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

ONEOTHER when the spelling is slightly different?[edit]

Is it a case of WP:ONEOTHER if a disambig page has only two entries (or even only one entry) with the exact match but several entries with a non-exact match? For example, see Dallas Smith (disambiguation). Should such a page exist? VR talk 20:42, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it is a case of ONEOTHER. In the case of Dallas Smith, there was a move request back in January to make the singer the primary topic and put the hockey player in a hatnote (per ONEOTHER, but not specifically citing it), and that got a support comment.[1] The clear implication was that the dab page would be deleted. Unfortunately, someone else then changed the RM to keep the dab page but move it to Dallas Smith (disambiguation) and that's how the RM was closed. The dab page could be deleted. Station1 (talk) 21:19, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
@Station1: just to confirm that the existence of spelling variants like Dallis Smith and Dallas Walker Smythe don't count for "entries" for the purposes of Dallas Smith (disambiguation) being WP:ONEOTHER? I want a confirmation so I can apply this to other similar cases.VR talk 23:14, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
I don't think we should automatically remove dab pages like that. It sometimes happens that the entry with that spelling has also been known under this spelling (this occurs often when there's transliteration from other languages involved), so it's not really a case of ONEOTHER. But even if it is, then getting rid of the dab page may not always be desirable, particularly if it's got more than one or two "See also" entries (because then we'd need to move them into a hatnote, and hatnotes should ideally stay short). – Uanfala (talk) 23:47, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
In my opinion, spelling differences normally don't count for creating a dab page where one would not otherwise exist, especially for only one or two such entries. There might be cases where significant numbers of readers might be looking for another person with an easily confused spelling. "Dallis" is an unusual spelling of the more common "Dallas", and if Dallis Smith was more popular, it could make sense to add him to the hatnote. Some editors would say add him anyway, even if it helps only one reader. I think the combination of the middle name Walker and "Smythe" in the other listing make him much more unlikely to be confused with Dallas Smith. But it's always a matter of judgment as to what helps readers in any particular situation, and I agree nothing should be automatic. Station1 (talk) 00:10, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I think that dab page serves a useful purpose. If it didn't exist, then the ptopic Dallas Smith would require a pileup of three hatnotes at the top. (And yes, I do think it's important that the reader be able to find, say, Dallis Smith from Dallas Smith. I recently had the experience of hearing about a writer named "Eleanor Glynn" in conversation, and wanted to look her up. Fortunately the hatnote on the article Eleanor Glynn made me realize that the name I had actually heard was "Elinor Glyn".) Colin M (talk) 01:10, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
Two interesting points. First, we wouldn't need 3 hatnotes. {{other uses|Dallas Smith (ice hockey)|Dallis Smith|Dallas Walker Smythe}} takes up little more room than the current hatnote pointing to the dab page. And by pointing to the dab page, we put one extra step in the way of readers who don't want Dallas Smith the singer, because most of them probably want the hockey player with the same name, not someone else with a different name. Second, the Elinor Glyn example is the exact opposite of the Dallis Smith example. Unlike Dallis Smith, which is the more unusual spelling and the far less sought article, Elinor is the more unusual spelling but the much more sought article. So it's a good thing there is a hatnote on Eleanor Glynn pointing directly toward Elinor Glyn, and not pointing to a dab page that lists, say, Elinor Glyn plus Eleanor Gwynn and Eleanor Lynn and Elinor Lynn, because that would just get in most people's way. Station1 (talk) 08:59, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
That suggested hatnote doesn't tell the reader when they should be looking at Dallis Smith instead. They may have to scan the ledes of two articles to find out. There isn't room in a hatnote for the thumbnail sketches which DAB pages should contain (except in simple {{about}} cases).
Would you like to sin / With Elinor Glyn / On a tiger skin? / Or would you prefer / To err with her / On some other fur? (I suspect that "Elinor" may have been a fairly common spelling in UK in late C19. As well as the novelist (born 1864), there was my grandmother (born c. 1885).) Narky Blert (talk) 12:32, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Guidance on where disambiguation ends and white pages begins[edit]

I suspect that this question has arisen before but I can't think of a search term that finds it.

I have been involved in two debates on how WP:DAB applies, which contradict each other. So I wonder if WP:PARTIAL needs further work?

  • At talk:Canonical#Not a dab page, that the article was not a true disambiguation article since almost all the articles listed were partial matches of the term 'Canonical'. The consensus was to change it to become a broad-concept article.
  • At talk:Star (disambiguation)#Heavy cleanup, there is an ongoing debate about the extent to which the article should (as it does) contain many 'partial match' articles. Even after some heavy spring-cleaning, the article is still enormous and I pity anyone on a mobile (cell-phone) trying to use it to resolve an ambiguous name. These, it seems to me, take the article beyond true disambiguation and into white pages territory – but the counter-argument is that they help readers who aren't quite sure what they want but it involves the word 'star' somewhere. One editor remarked that there is nothing explicit in WP:DAB that disapproves of this practice and indeed the article Mercury (disambiguation) – which is referenced in WP:DAB as a canonical example – includes many partial-match articles.
  • Pinging @Coastside, Clarityfiend, Swpb, and Bkonrad: for info, as they were or are involved in the debates (to check that I have presented the question neutrally)

"Hard cases make bad law" and these two articles are definitely edge cases. It may be that we have to accept that we aren't in the business of writing criminal law, just guidance, and 'good enough' is good enough. Any new comments, advice, proposals? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:51, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

the counter-argument is that they help readers who aren't quite sure what they want but it involves the word 'star' somewhere. is a slight misrepresentation. The criteria for inclusion is not whether the title for a Wikipedia article contains the word 'star' -- but whether the topic is known as 'star'. olderwiser 14:01, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
When I'm not quite sure what I want but it involves the word 'star' somewhere, I use the search box. I can usually narrow it down by adding other terms, e.g. the name of an actor who appeared in Star Something. Experienced readers know not to rely on dabs for finding PTMs. Inexperienced readers don't know what a dab is. Certes (talk) 14:47, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for starting this discussion, and thanks for the ping. I don't think we're as far apart on this as it may seem. I think we all agree that PTMs don't belong. But Bkonrad is right: if a topic may reasonably be referred to by the ambiguous name alone, then it isn't a PTM, and it belongs on a dab, even if it doesn't take the exact form "Term (disambiguator)". Star polygon was a good example; most people just call that a "star". (Although in that case, we have the redirect Star (polygon) to use.) Ship names with naval prefixes have historically been non-controversial entries as well (although I know you don't agree they should be), or things like "[Name] City". For extremely common words like "Star", there will inevitably be a ton of entries, even with the strictest possible interpretation of the inclusion criterion. One solution to that is judicious use of the typically-avoided WP:DOUBLEDAB, with pages like Star (song) or the existing Star (newspaper). —swpbT • go beyond • bad idea 17:19, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
I agree with the above, especially the point about the key to disambiguation of a term being that the topic is called that term, e.g., a star polygon is called a star. I think canonical is an interesting case for this because it's an adjective. No topic other than the company is called a canonical, because it's an adjective. Because of that, the term is almost always attached to another noun when defining a topic. That makes almost every instance of canonical as a topic a PTM. It's worth noting that the topic rhetorical doesn't have a dab page. The term redirects to rhetoric. There are lots of topics that could be listed in a dab on rhetorical, such as rhetorical question, rhetorical situation, rhetorical criticism, etc. Each has a different nuance about the word rhetorical. This is similar to the different nuanced variation on the word canonical in phrases that include the word. Yet there is no dab page for things rhetorical. If there were ever a dab for rhetorical, it should only include things called rhetorical. Coastside (talk) 20:48, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
If there is value in a page that lists a bunch of "rhetorical X" or "canonical X" articles, that's fine, but I think the point is that those pages would not be disambiguation pages, but Broad-concept articles. —swpbT • go beyond • bad idea 20:54, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
In some cases, where the topic is an adjective, the broad concept article is just the topic that is the noun form of the adjective. For example, the term bright has a dab page which refers to the topic brightness. Brightness is the broad concept article for the term bright. If there were a dab page for rhetorical (for a few topics on things called rhetorical), it might be reasonable to link to rhetoric on that dab page, as bright links to brightness. Currently rhetorical does this as a redirect since there is no such dab page, i.e., rhetorical redirects to rhetoric. Unfortunately, the topic canon is itself ambiguous, so you can't just link canonical to canon as a broad concept. Coastside (talk) 21:20, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Should a "reasonable expectation" be made a requirement for a disambig hatnote?[edit]

Let's say that I name my band "Joe Biden" and Wikipedia writes an article about it. And someone wants to give my band big time publicity in Wikipedia. This guideline recommends (and supports) them putting a disambig hatnote at the top of the Joe Biden article as follows: "This article is about the president of the United States; for the rock band, see Joe Biden (band)" and nobody has any basis for removing it, and this guideline supports keeping it. There is no other "Joe Biden" article besides my band, and thus no "Joe Biden" disambig page. Is there / should there be guidance against doing this? I actually had this happen in a similar situation. I had to torture an disambig page into existence (and have the hatnote direct to it) to solve it. North8000 (talk) 22:07, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

If the band passes the relevant notability guideline, and is the only other topic of that name mentioned in Wikipedia, then a hatnote seems appropriate. It's unfortunate that this may provide a way to game the system, but only by creating an actual band and making it notable rather than just by sneaky editing. Certes (talk) 22:17, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
The real example is where a band gave themselves the same name as that of their musical genre. So when you went to the article on that genre, they had their name at the top, ahead of the lead. North8000 (talk) 22:49, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
Correction, they named an album the same name as their musical genre.North8000 (talk) 01:52, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
Agree strongly with North8000. Wikipedia has an over-preponderance, a laxity, for hatnotes. So many hatnotes are ugly intrusions into the prime reading zone of a highly notable topic, for the sake of an obscure topic. A root cause is the inadequate titling, over-brief, for highly notable topics.
It is completely normal for commercial things, like bands and books and songs, to be titled in conflict with other things, in an attempt at easy memory recognition of their name. They do it on purpose, and they want things like a hatnotes on Wikipedia.
Many hatnotes would be better converted to listings in the “See also” section at the bottom.. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:10, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
See also is for related topics, not for unrelated topics with similar names. So Apple#See also has entries like Rootstock; Apple Inc. is linked in a hatnote instead. Certes (talk) 23:24, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
Yes. That’s what Wikipedia does. A poor choice. Hatnotes are ugly and annoying. It’s poor style always to begin a story about what the story is not about. For Apple, it would be better to have that base title redirect to Apple (fruit). The title then precisely defines the article, and hatnote justifications go away. Obscure confusable topics go better at the bottom, where only the confused will find them, when they go looking. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:46, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
I don't think the confused will look at the bottom. They'll think "I wanted to know about iThings but this article seems to be about fruit", then either search for the right page or give up. A hatnote gives them a one-click route to their destination (or two clicks if there are multiple options needing a dab). Certes (talk) 01:27, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
My own experience, is that when the page doesn’t match expectations, I naturally go to the “See Also” link in the table of contents.
One common frustration for me is when I find myself at a disambiguated page and realise I need to get to a base page. This requires editing the url, which is a pain on mobile devices.
Another thought is that hatnotes should be very simple eg “not what you wanted?”, and this links to the full list of hatnote-style notes of what you might have wanted, at the bottom of the page, not all at the top of the page. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:51, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
I'm skeptical about the idea that people are deliberately trying to game the system in this way. There's a major downside to sharing a name with one or more popular topics - you want your band or product or whatever to be at the top of the search results when people google your name. It's probably bad for business when people need to scroll down to find you, or add further keywords to their search query. Colin M (talk) 00:28, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
If we're looking at the same genre→album hatnote then it was added two years ago by an experienced gnome. The artist has other notable albums and this one's title describes its content. It doesn't look like an attempt at gaming the system or suggest thoughts about Wikipedia in the way that, say, Ø (Disambiguation) does. Certes (talk) 01:33, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

One that always bothered me was

at the top of Hank Aaron (855 pageviews/month to 243,757 pageviews/month). How many readers does this really help? Too bad COATRACK can't override HATNOTE or ONEOTHER sometimes. IAR? Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 23:42, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that the two names are confused. That hatnote can probably go, per WP:NAMB. But if someone writes about a notable band/horse/dance also called "Hank Aaron", in an article that would have been titled "Hank Aaron" had that title not already been taken, then we'll need a hatnote to it. Certes (talk) 00:14, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
I think this is what the OP is getting at. That's where I would force a dab page with one other topic (Hank Aaron (band)), even though it violates ONEOTHER. If it causes problems, in such a case I would be moved to start a talk page discussion somewhere. There should be some allowance for extreme cases. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 00:34, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Maybe something like

"Please consider that disambiguation hatnotes end up in prime real estate on a page and somewhat force the reader to read them. Try to avoid cases where there is no realistic expectation of finding a far more obscure topic when entering a title of a highly prominent topic. For these, avoid "not to be confused with" type entries. For example, at the Polar bear article, do not start with: "not to be be confused with Polar Beer (band)" For these cases, also consider whether a disambiguation page should be created for alternate meanings of the title."

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 02:15, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

If Polar Beer (band) were the only topic confusable with Polar bear then it probably wouldn't merit a hatnote because of the different spelling. However, it should get a hatnote on Polar Beer. (Presumably in this example there is a primary topic such as a drink, or we would simply have titled the band article "Polar Beer"). As we actually have several topics with similar names, including four bands, we list them on a dab and put that on a hatnote without mentioning any bands above the article. Certes (talk) 01:04, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Seeking input[edit]

There are a couple of contentious topics on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Disambiguation pages that could really use broader input, since so far they are one-vs.-one:

Thanks! —swpbT • go beyond • bad idea 17:27, 23 November 2021 (UTC)